How Could You Do That? The Abdication of Character, Courage, and Conscience is the title of a book by Dr. Laura Schlessinger. This book was very helpful to me when I first began to deal with the betrayal my WDIL dealt our family. <p>I thought I would post some excerpts from the book and see what you think. Personally, I agree with most of what she has to say. I don't buy the not a bad person, just a bad deed argument when you are talking about a normally intelligent adult who consciously and intentionally does something horrible. Here goes.<p>
Here are three excerpts from Laura Schlessinger's book How Could You Do That?! The Abdication of Character, Courage, and Conscience that seem relevant. <p>"You see, it's not a simple matter of an "oopsie." When you choose wrong because it suits you right now, the message you give others is that when it suits you, you might likely do wrong again. You become a threat and liability to others...Please do focus in on the word choose. Ultimately, every action is the result of choice with intent-no matter how much you'd like to blame the devil for makin' you do it. And that's what others recognize and note about you." (p. 36)<p>"Doing wrong, having regrets and remorse followed by redress, is the behavior of a basically good person. Consistently doing wrongs, compounding wrongs with more of the same, scapegoating while denying contribution to the wrongness eventually makes you a bad person. This statement of mine was challenged by someone who had recently interviewed me. "How can you ever say someone is bad? Isn't it just the deed that was bad?" [Dr. Laura responded] "How do you know a person if not by the consistent nature of the person's deeds?" (p. 62)<p>Re "bad person" vs "bad deed" argument: For children just learning right and wrong until moral choices become habit, this argument is OK.
"However, too many adult folks try to cop that plea, implying they are somehow separate in identity or value from their acts and behaviors. I don't think so. I believe we are the sum total of all that we do, i.e., what we "do" is who we "are." This is true because as adults we make deliberate choices in our actions. Therefore, our actions describe our inner selves, what sacrifices we are willing to make, what evil we are willing to perpetrate. It is with awareness that we persist in negative, ugly, and destructive deeds in one or more areas. Our actions are a blueprint of our character."
(p.185)<p>Seems pretty clear to me. Comments, anyone.<p>Estes

YES!<p>Estes,<p>I journal regularly, and have never read this book. The quote below is what I wrote the other night to myself in my journal regarding my ex-H in an attempt to convince myself he isn't as wonderful as my now-memories are leading and allowing me to believe:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Dr. Laura Schlessinger wrote:
I believe we are the sum total of all that we do, i.e., what we "do" is who we "are." <hr></blockquote><p>Thank you ...<p>Jo

Hi Estes,
i'm online but not for long - so a quick reply. <p>All this sets me thinking about my H, as the EA he is in right now is his 2nd in the space of a year. Last June, I found a letter in his backpack to our best friend's 17 yr old daughter saying he was only sure of one thing - that he couldn't imagine his life without her in it in some way - either in a big way or a small way. It was a very confused letter and deeply painful to discover and see just how far my supposedly mature and honourable husband had fallen. <p>I confronted him 2 weeks later and he became extremely ill during the night - terrible diahrrea - we thought he had food poisoning and he was tested but showed negative - it lasted for days and I believe it was stress. The next day (after the confrontation and the onset of his illness) he lay on the floor at my feet and apologized - he said that what he had to say to me was best said from the floor - that he had offended me in the worst possible way and he was sorry. My heart went out to him and I said I didn't blame him for being human. This girl was also very needy and attention-seeking.<p>We tried to recover our marriage, and I accidentally became pregnant, and had a delayed miscarriage - in Nov I had to go in for a D&C - in the 2 days afterwards, perhaps it was the aftereffect of the anaesthetic, but I had a long crying jag and sobbed my heart out deeply and uncontrollably - all I could say was "I loved you so much and you don't love me anymore, you love someone else" - he hugged me and whispered that he was sorry.<p>Fast forward - you know my story - after all that, how could he do this to me again? Is he bad?
He has chosen to do something that has hurt me, when he KNOWS, he has SEEN the pain he has caused me - why?<p>For me the answer is that he can't control himself anymore - whatever is driving his feelings is beyond his control - and too powerful for him - in order to continue to get the "highs" he got, he has become a person who lies, cheats and keeps secrets - something that he would have hated before. I believe that deep down he hates himself. But I don't really believe that he is a bad person. I believe he could choose to heal, just as he has chosen a life of lying. That is within his power.<p>An alcoholic can always choose not to drink. It's ultimately up to him. <p>The real question is not whether or not a person is innately "bad", but whether they have the will to choose good over bad. Our choice is to decide what we can and cannot live with, what we can and cannot deal with. This is different according to every individual's strengths and abilities. That's what I believe.<p>Very good question. Looking forward to other replies.<p>Take care,
Odile

Hi Jo,<p>I sent you a reply on the other thread.<p>
Everyone,
Sometimes Dr. Laura irritates me with her abruptness, but a lot of the time she lays it all out there in such a way that you say, "Duh, why didn't I see that before." I listen to her program every day - download it to the computer since I'm at work when she is on.<p>Estes

I should also add, in defense of my H, that he never sent that letter to our friend's daughter, nor was he ever physical with her, or with this present R. He appears to be looking for emotional attachment, no matter how it affects me.<p>Odile

In the end, these assessments are correct. However, as we all know here, the things going on in the mind of a WS during an A, Discovery, etc. may prevent them from "acting" the way they normally would.
While I agree that we all would like to feel we're consistent in our values and beliefs, and thus our actions, we're not. Emotions, fear, and many other factors may sometimes lead us to act differently.
Don't get me wrong, I WISH my WS would come back to "acting normally", but right now she may be unable to. I think, at least in part, when the "fog" lifts, WS come "back" to behaving in the way they normally would.

Copied this from the other "Estes" thread.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Estes wrote:
Then you by-pass the bad person issue and get to the heart of the matter. What difference is there between a good person with bad behavior and a bad person? Maybe it's that a good person may recognize the consequences of the bad behavior and therefore change. A truly bad person does not change and persistes in the bad behavior.<hr></blockquote><p>Morning Estes!<p>IMHO, I believe for either a bad or good person the presence of "Empathy" for others plays an enormous roll in whether or not someone intentionally acts badly. That, along with aspects of maturity and impulse control are definite personality traits associated with someone who may consider the action but decide against it.<p>Just my 2 cents worth.<p>Jo

hmmmmm... thinking about this....<p>I suppose that we all have to define a limit to how many "oopsies" we allow others to commit?? I sometimes wonder if I'm too naive - too trusting - too forgiving. I see someone commit an "oopsie", say they are sorry - say they will not do it again... I can forgive them, and trust them that they truly won't do it again... yet they probably will.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
"Doing wrong, having regrets and remorse followed by redress, is the behavior of a basically good person. Consistently doing wrongs, compounding wrongs with more of the same, scapegoating while denying contribution to the wrongness eventually makes you a bad person.

When you choose wrong because it suits you right now, the message you give others is that when it suits you, you might likely do wrong again.

It is with awareness that we persist in negative, ugly, and destructive deeds in one or more areas.
<hr></blockquote><p>I can agree and appreciate most of this... I appreciate Dr. Laura for many things. SHe's great at teaching people (mostly women) to stand up for themselves, to do what's right, to make decisions, etc.<p>I guess I'm really struggling with the "bad person" thing. Maybe I really do believe in people, and in their abilities to change if they want.<p>After how many "sins" do we label someone a "bad person"? 1 murder... 2 affairs... 3 bruises to your wife (or 1 bruise?)... 5 lies... 20 broken promises... <p>I suppose our purpose should not really be in determining whether or not someone is "bad", but what behaviors we allow ourselves to put up with. 1 affair or 2. 1 bruise or 3. 5 lies or 20. SURE - we prefer to have none of those - but there was only 1 perfect man that walked the earth.<p>Just my thinking out loud... <p>Thanks for the post Estes!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

from odile <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>For me the answer is that he can't control himself anymore - whatever is driving his feelings is beyond his control - and too powerful for him - <hr></blockquote><p>from Spacecase <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However, as we all know here, the things going on in the mind of a WS during an A, Discovery, etc. may prevent them from "acting" the way they normally would.
<hr></blockquote><p>OK guys,
These are examples of what we call around here THE FOG, when someone is not in his/her right mind. In psychological terms, what is it? A form of mental illness? Emotional illness? Is self-delusion and denial of reality a form of mental illness? <p>I am searching so hard for an understanding of WHY one human being would treat another human being with such indignity. Either the offending person is evil (I don't think this is true for most!) or he/she is suffering from such a weakness that he/she abdicates character (Most of us know right from wrong.) or he/she is emotionally ill and can't help him/herself.<p>There has to be a desparation in the mind of many WS. Is mental illness of some sort (FOG), or are they simply people of weak character, or they are bad. Am I oversimplifying? (Probably already know the answer.) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Is mental illness of some sort (FOG), or are they simply people of weak character, or they are bad. <hr></blockquote><p>I prefer to think my WH was selfish and selfcentered. He's been that way for years. So is that weak character? Maybe so, but he has strong character in many other ways. I see his selfishness as the root of the problem, not his A. So, we've been working on the selfishness. He's become much less selfish, and so have I in the process.<p>One thing in Dr. Laura's books "10 Stupid things Men Do to mess up their lives" and "10 Stupid Things Couples do to mess up their Relationships" that she mentions is that there is absolutely NO reason to have a friendship with a member of the opposite sex besides your mate. This is crucial to my H as that is how his EA developed. He allowed himself to become to good a friends with the OW at work, and when she pressed to make the A physical, he was to a point mentally and physically where this was the logical "next step" in their relationship. Fortunately after a few episodes of petting and kissing he realized what he was headed for and realized that HE DID NOT WANT TO GO THERE. He broke it off after she pressured him to have sex one day and suggested he move in with her. ***So is his decision there one of weak moral character? I think his moral character just finally kicked into gear after laying dormant for 2 weeks (+ the EA the prior 6 wks). <p>So the answer to your question: I DON'T KNOW!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Interesting thoughts, everyone. Thanks.<p>Faith1, I understand the "how many times" issue. As much as adultery disgusts me, I can see the wisdom to giving a repentant WS a second chance. In fact, we see a number of the folks here at MB, ones who are sincerely trying to learn and rebuild. Certainly, no one is perfect.<p>jamup, it makes sense to look at WS as people who have a vulnerablilty - for whatever reason. I really don't think most WS are fundamentally evil. I think they are weak. Like your H; his weakness is selfishness. odile's H needs attention from young women/girls. One of my WDIL's weaknesses is thinking that happiness is found by looking externally instead of internally. If their actions were not so hurtful, one might feel sorry for them for being needy and weak and causing themselves and others such pain.
Actually, I do.<p>Anyone else have an opinion?
Estes

Here is perhaps an even more interesting one. I believe my WW fell into her A BECAUSE she is a good person. Good and perhaps naive, but good nonetheless.<p>Her A began when an old friend called her, told her he was in prison, his 2 previous wives had deserted him, and he had nobody to turn to. So she did...and this "old friend" took advantage of her desire to help to rope her in.
I'm not excusing her (or my part), but goodness and naivety brought her into this mess. And now she finds herself unable to extricate herself from this...we're working on it.<p>A "bad" person? I don't think so. Lack of character? maybe. Lack of conscience? probably, especially after seeing the devastation on our marriage and not extricating herself from it.<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

You're welcome to agree with her...and I'm welcome not to. I find this view a little narrow-minded. I don't do the whole "well, I agree with SOME of what this person says regarding a subject, but ALL of it" approach.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong> Is it self-delusion and denial of reality, or are they simply people of weak character, </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Estes,
I will attempt to answer this (probably) age-old question as well. First of all, for the record? I LOVE Dr. Schlessinger!<p>I think it is a psychological term called: rationalization. People tend to rationalize their behavior to suit themselves. It begins in incremental "baby steps" (which may explain why it takes BABY STEPS to come back from the "dark side!). With each slip down the slope toward moral IMpurity, WS's (any of us?) RATIONALIZE our behavior. That helps us "understand" ourselves....what we need, WHY we're doing what we're doing, to justify it to our consciences. BUT in the process of continuing down our slippery slope, we tend to self-loathe as well. ESPECIALLY IF THE ACTIONS WE ARE TAKING ARE TOTALLY FOREIGN TO OUR BASIC NATURE. <p>Lots of the anger we see directed toward BS's is often the WS's "projection" of their self-loathing, but it's easier to project it onto another, someone close to us, rather than take it into ourselves.<p>I think our WS's tend to become "weak" during their slide....beause of the choices they make. I think there are situations that tempt each of us at some time in our lives, that would tempt us to behave in a manner that is "below" our real moral aptitude. Does that make us "bad people?" We may feel like it at the moment, but we are human, we are weak, we are fallible. ONLY GOD is perfect. We (hopefully) come back from our "fall" and become BETTER people. That is all we can hope for our WS's as well.<p>This is the ramblings of a simple-minded school teacher in the midst of one of the noisiest days this year!! I hope some of it made sense to some of you! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>May God Bless you all,

We are all "bad":<p>For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. --Romans 3:23<p>The only "good" in us is that which we allow God to work in us.<p>We are either obedient or rebellious, and we all make decisions moment by moment whether we will be obedient or not.

Good point, Conqueror.<p>lupolady, I think I understand the rationalization issue. My DIL rationalizes everything, always has. Even when no one is objecting to what she has to say, she has to prove that she point of view is right. <p>
Hello TTF,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You're welcome to agree with her...and I'm welcome not to. I find this view a little narrow-minded. I don't do the whole "well, I agree with SOME of what this person says regarding a subject, but ALL of it" approach. <hr></blockquote><p>I'd be interested to know what you disagree to. Care to share? I'm not sure what you are saying by your quote. Is it perhaps "not ALL of it"?<p>Thanks everyone,
Estes<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

I listen to Dr. Laura a lot and admire her stand on most things, except infidelity.<p>Just yesterday a MM called in, he had a PA on vacation (or something, conference?) with an old flame. Never told his wife. Now he hears the OW is "dying" and he wants to go see her. Dr. Laura said for him NOT to tell his wife that this is an old lover, and it would be fine to go say goodbye. AND that it is HIS burden and his wife shouldn't have to bear it because of his bad decisions!!!!! (Uh, doc, how about those STDs?) <p>Yep, I have a good idea how that one turns out.<p>I don't get this glitch in her responsibility platform. Shouldn't the BS be allowed the dignity of knowing the actions of the WS and deciding whether to continue the marriage...especially since Dr. L says adultery, abuse or addiction are the only real reasons to divorce....<p>I don't get how not telling fits into responsibility.

I heard that one too, Lor. She does not believe in radical honesty. She also has no problem with a "one mistake and out the door" policy on infidelity. I suspect that she thinks MB is too soft on WS.<p>I have heard a few contadictory responses from her also. In one conversation, she chastized a woman who was remarrying the father of her children for living with him as a family before they were remarried. In the same week she said it was OK for man who was D his wife to bring his OW whom he planned to marry to his family reunion because the reason he was not D was that the W had mental problems and he was letting W ease out of the M at her own pace, like it was an act of kindness on his part. Didn't make sense to me. <p>Estes