I've been reading "After The Affair" (Janis Abrahms Spring) and I think it's quite good.<p>I think she's right on with most of her assessments, her "plan" and solutions make very good sense, she addresses most issues very thoroughly, has depth to her thoughts and reasoning. A very valuable resource, thought provoking and complete.<p>However, I'm not sure I really buy into the idea that so many of the things that we do or don't do are so closely related to the environment we grew up in and the effect our parents' and siblings' actions had on us. I feel like they are an influence, but perhaps not as profound an influence as she appears to describe.<p>They way she describes this it feels like it's "our destiny" to be this way or that, regardless of what we do, and I believe we, as individuals, have a lot more to do with how we end up than a "pre-determined" destiny formed by our parents.<p>Any thoughts from the board on this?<p>[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

I had the same reaction as you. I think the book is great - very thorough, very helpful. I too didn't quite "buy into" the whole childhood, environment stuff either, but decided that it jsut didn't apply to me and pushed forward in the book. I'm sure there are others who feel those sections of the book are right on and help them understand why they had the affair or why their spouse had the affair.
I do recommend this book highly.

Hi,<p>I liked the book a lot. It gave me some good insight into W's head and helped me to understand and forgive. As far as the part about childhood environment I found it mildly interesting but semi-relevant at best. Even if it's all true, what are we gonna do about what happened to us or S 30+ years ago. Still, it might make for some interesting conversation and understanding of S if we could find a way to inquire about the formative years.<p>Forgot to mention, I bought the audiobook from audible.com, it's read by the author. She sounds kinda uptight and scholarly. I could definitely picture her asking about one's childhood. Audiobooks are awesome. Can put them on your PDA or burn CDs.<p>LL<p>[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: LearninLove ]</p>

I read this as well and the first 2 chapters were extremely helpful to not feel so crazy and alone. Gave insight and understanding to both sides.<p>I did not buy into so much of the childhood stuff AT FIRST. I always thought it was mumbo jumbo. We both came from screwed up families but thought we had learned from there mistakes. We are adults and have taken control of our lives and destinies in many ways. <p>HOWEVER, after going to mc/ic and digging a little deeper it is interesting how much you can find out how your child hood affects you. I was always one to say it was kinda b.s. to blame stuff on childhood. That you have to make up your mind to get over things and move on to be productive.<p>We did all of that and led productive happy lives in many ways. What we did get a better understanding of things through counseling (then the book made a little more sense) is just how your child hood affects the way you react and perceive things. It was kinda amazing to see where a lot of our insecurities and different egos came from. <p>Just my thoughts...I too was skeptical and still DO NOT BLAME MY CHILDHOOD....I just now understand how the way I grew up affected my personality and the way his upbringing affected him. <p>We are far into recovery and doing great. As a matter of fact are celebrating our wedding anniversary today. He just brought be a dozen of beautiful red roses. We have come a long way!!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Congratulations HBH!<p>I agree that our childhood experience does affect us and does influence our personality and behavior. I guess what I don't buy into is how much.

Spacecase,<p>I have not read the book, but it sounds like a good one. I think I will try the audio version to listen to in my car. I do not have much time to do anything because of Plan A.<p>I too am very cautious about opinions from people who try to explain everything by past experience and try also to predict the future based on these past experiences. Surely, the events of the past shape a person especially if the events are traumatic, but it sounds more like an excuse to me. People deserve more credit than this. For the most part, I believe traumatic events have a greater positive good than a negative one, provided they do not go crazy. People get stronger, learn more, and smooth out some of their rough edges. If someone goes through life without any traumatic or painful events, how much about life do you think they really know? I know I am a better person after D-day. <p>I do not mean we do not inquire about other's past experiences, but I do not think we should predispose or judge others based upon these. Past experiences do tell quite a bit about a person.

This is the best book I have read on the subject.<p>Re:childhood stuff. It is not so much a determenant of what you will do as much as it is an indication of your predispositions. That does not relieve a person of blame or responsibility but it does help a person to understand why they may have made some of the choices they made or still make today. Understanding such is the first step to correcting poor or negative behavior.<p>My wife is in individual counseling as well as MC with me. She has been in IC for three months now. They have spent nearly the entire time examining her childhood so that the counselor and her can better understand how she is, how she got to be that way, and how to change it.<p>My wife has not fully realized why she made the choices she made but her counselor is helping her to do so. Once she learns the why of her actions, she will be better equiped to make the internal mental changes that will help her to be a better wife and person in the future.<p>Harley's book always talk about behavioral changes. Anyone can walk away from danger by a choice of will power. But, as well all have learned, will power is weak. The best protection from further infidelity is not behavioral changes, it is mental, moral, and maturation changes. After the Affair I think covers this issue better than most (Torn Asunder does a decent job as well).<p>Sure I can force my wife to have curfews for the rest of her life, to always report in, to have no male friendships, etc. But, I would much rather she experience the growth of character that would allow her to make good choices so such behavioral measures are not needed.

I too am very cautious about opinions from people who try to explain everything by past experience and try also to predict the future based on these past experiences. Surely, the events of the past shape a person especially if the events are traumatic, but it sounds more like an excuse to me.<p>I have not read the book in a while but I don't think it states that your childhood is any prediction of future behavior. Instead, it is a predisposition to behavior.<p>Think about it, how many woman at some time in their life say to themselves, "Ugh, I sound (or am) just like my mother" just after saying or doing something they dislike about their mother, but were not clued in enough to the predisposition to avoid following in her footsteps. I think this is what the book refers to. It is the same reason that children of divorce are often at a higher risk of divorce within their own marraiges. The same goes for infidelity (my father was the infidel), smoking, drinking, abuse, etc. Your childhood experiences predispose you certain behaviors and attitudes. The challenge is to recognize the cause of such and to change the internal processes of the predispositions so that external behavior restrictions are not needed.<p>If WS were internally equiped to avoid poor behavior, we would never need to have access to email, voice mail, etc.

Good insight Mr Bunky.
You said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It is not so much a determinant of what you will do as much as it is an indication of your predispositions. That does not relieve a person of blame or responsibility but it does help a person to understand why they may have made some of the choices they made or still make today. Understanding such is the first step to correcting poor or negative behavior.
<hr></blockquote><p>There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. I guess I align a little more with Michele Weiner-Davis' (Divorce Busting, Divorce Remedy) position that while this IS the case, during a traumatic period like an A, it is more important to find solutions quickly than to analyze where the problem came from in the first place. In other words, I may have a predisposition to make disrespectful judgements because my dad was like that, and that's very interesting to know. But at this moment, what I need is to change that behavior, not necessarily to understand where it came from. There will be time to analyze the origins later....the other problem is that many times Cs will spend a lot of time analyzing these things and not enough time devising solutions...which is really what we need.

Yep, very true. "Curb" the bad behavior until one can take the appropriate time needed to deal with the causes of such behavior.

you both are correct on that...put out the fire first....then dig through the rubble and try to rebuild.<p>I admit I may have just skimmed over the childhood stuff and picked out what could have pertained to me AND the predispositions it may have left me... <p>I do not "blame" our childhood and "excuse" what has happened because of the past. I get what "understanding" I can from the past and work on the "forgiveness" process. <p>I do think it is pretty ironic that both of our parents dealt with the infidelity issue and we talked openly many times in our younger days of "Never letting that happen to us." I guess it is true what they say...NEVER SAY NEVER.<p>The rest of the book was very helpful for me though. I cried a lot when I first read it because I could not believe it touched on everything I was feeling as the bs; and what my wh was feeling. Maybe I was not just alone & crazy. <p>I also thought it was very helpful on describing the different stages of love. The trust issues and how to earn that back. If you should try to reconcile--why there may be more left than you think there is. Realistic things the bs will need from the ws if you decide to work it out. I can't say enough good about this book I guess because of all the ones this one helped me the most at the most crucial time--the beggining.<p>spacecase...how far are you into the book? Have you found the rest more helpful and practical? I hope you find some help and comfort from it.<p>
mr bunky...can you tell me any more about torn assunder? it is one I have not read but have heard mentioned here a lot. I am trying to read still to improve although we are pretty far into recovery so I am looking more to move forward and get past the analyzation stage. I am debating if I should get it or not. <p>The only thing I still really seem to have a problem with is I can get a little obsessive in my thinking when something triggers an event. I still have a lot of resentment towards the ow but am trying hard to work towards forgiveness.<p>It is a hard thing. Part of me is so happy to have my anniversary today--to have things with my husband be better than ever. We have learned so much. <p>BUT part of me is so very sad thinking of all the vows and promises that were broken. I guess I just mourn the innocence our love had and it will always make me a little sad when I think of it I guess. <p>I will never forget this pain. I wish I could but I guess it will serve as a reminder to never lose focus of the relationship and making it work.<p>Good luck to all. too bad any of us are here.

Just a different opinion. I think this may be a very good BS book. My H & I read it as our first book after D-day. It helped him, but he did not buy into all the childhood stuff. However, I found that book, as a WS, VERY difficult to read. I felt it "took sides" in a way with the BS. Harley's book are more balanced in this way. Harley places responsibility firmly on a WS, where it belongs, but in some way his books (SAA, HN/HN) were less directly attacking on a WS. Harley's approach gave me more hope.<p>Just an opinion to consider before you recommnend this book to a WS.

The way we are is determined by our childhood only to the extent that we react to things in a similar way.<p>I have a friend who still has panic attacks every time her mother is angry with her. This is not the 40-year-old feeling, it's the 6-year-old inside.<p>I act out that "if you're angry with me it means forever" thing with my husband instead of my mother, though she's where it originated. I don't do it as much as I used to, because I had some very good cognitive/behavioral therapy, which teaches you how to recognize these old messages that aren't grounded in today's reality.<p>Yes, we are a product of our pasts, but we are not BOUND to the past.

HBH:<p>You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> spacecase...how far are you into the book? Have you found the rest more helpful and practical? I hope you find some help and comfort from it.
<hr></blockquote><p>I'm almost done with it. Don't get me wrong; I LOVE the book; it is complete, thoughful, covers many, many different possibilities, and it's a good guidebook. I see it a fully complementing MB theories and processes. A VERY valuable book. I'd find more comfort in it if my WW would read it ;-) working on that!<p>Clouds (Love your handle!)
You said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I think this may be a very good BS book.... felt it "took sides" in a way with the BS. Harley's book are more balanced in this way. Harley places responsibility firmly on a WS, where it belongs, but in some way his books (SAA, HN/HN) were less directly attacking on a WS. Harley's approach gave me more hope. <hr></blockquote><p>This is an interesting viewpoint; I didn't feel that way at all. In fact, in most of what I've read (Harley, Weiner-Davis, Etc.) I think the books are pretty balanced. In fact (and I don't believe it is so), many reviews criticize a lot of these books for placing TOO MUCH blame on the BS.<p>Would you expand on what made you feel this book "takes sides" with the BS?<p>That would be very enlightening, as I'm trying to decide the right stack of books I'll be leaving for my WW to read in case I go to Plan B.<p>D&C
You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The way we are is determined by our childhood only to the extent that we react to things in a similar way....Yes, we are a product of our pasts, but we are not BOUND to the past. <hr></blockquote><p>There is no question that to some extent, some more than others I presume, we are influenced by our past. I don't dispute that. I dispute the extent of it, and whether everything we do can be traced to the past.<p>I guess the main point I'd make about that is that right now, in the crisis of an A, we need solutions before we need to analyze the wheres and whys of what the problems are.

Hey SC! Git cherself on over to my thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017551 and give me your thoughts!<p>Baffled is back on line! Now we just have to locate Conan (and a whole $hitpot of others!)

Spacecase-
I am not sure I can expand. At the time I read the book I was int serious withdrawal, and in kind of shock getting used to the idea that what I had done was a form of adultery. I felt overly sensitive, devastated, emotionally "raw." <p>Any wording that was highly critical of the WS, that made it clear that the burden of the recovery was on the WS, that there was no justifiable reason for a WS to have an A, that called the WS (EA or PA) an adulterer, I couldn't stomach. I acknowledge that all of what I just wrote is true. But it has been two years. I was immediately remorseful, but there was for me, a period that I had to come to grips with the intermal chaos before I could be receptive to these "truths." How it was worded was critical to my being able to read and absorb it. I felt ATTACKED. And I was not in a place where I could handle attack. I needed some help, and not all blame. MB helped. I told me what I had to do. It explained to me I wasn't alone. It presented a framework in which the behavior of a WS could be explained (not excused). I needed to know that I could recover, that I could be forgiven, that the deed didn't forever mark me as a terrible person, or frankly I couldn't have coped, and I didn't want to live. <p>This isn't really to the point. I guess the point is that depending on the frame of mind of your WS, be careful. I was a mess. I know others have been so distraught with shame and guilt, suicide has been considered. WS can be very vulnerable as they come to grips with reality.<p>Maybe it wasn't the book, but when I read it.

Thank you, Clouds.<p>I think you're right on the money on this one, and it's a VERY important point. I will be "sensitive" to those feelings and pass the book on at the right time. Probably later on in recovery.
Thanks again! ;-)

mr bunky...can you tell me any more about torn assunder? it is one I have not read but have heard mentioned here a lot. I am trying to read still to improve although we are pretty far into recovery so I am looking more to move forward and get past the analyzation stage. I am debating if I should get it or not. <p>For me AtA was by far the best book I have read on the subject (for many of the same reasons you mentioned). Torn Asunder takes a slightly different approach and gets into what I would call the "science" of recovery. It is good by not nearly as good as AtA. It also has some information not covered in AtA or covers it slightly different.<p>Read Torn Asunder after AtA. For me, AtA has become my "bible" to recovery and all the rest are supplements.<p>The only thing I still really seem to have a problem with is I can get a little obsessive in my thinking when something triggers an event. I still have a lot of resentment towards the ow but am trying hard to work towards forgiveness.<p>Don't rush it. I would say to not even push it. I did in the beginning and it complicated our recovery. Forgiveness too soon can be FAR MORE damaging to recovery than forgiving late.

Thanks Mr Bunky, I appreciate the advise. I have pretty much learned to just take it day by day. there will be good & bad I guess. I am just glad the bad days are getting fewer & far between. And atleast the bad days don't seem like the end of the world or relationship now. <p>Clouds, I think you are right when you say it may have been more "when" you read it. I think my wh was as emotionally distraught in the beginning as I was...just for different reasons of course. After the A helped me understand some of what he was going through. <p>I think he may have took some of the book a little hard at first too BUT I think it made him step back a little bit and really think before he made some very final decisions---I am very glad for that. <p>I have not looked at this book in a while---seems I should maybe pull it out of the drawer and go over the recovery section a little more again. <p>Right now I am reading Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus Together forever (just started this one) AND men are from mars, women are from venus in the bedroom. <p>Believe it or not, I actually kinda recommend the first few chapters of the "In the Bedroom" one farely soon after d-day. Even though it is not about infidelity it helped me realize just how men & women look at sex so differently. <p>It helped me understand how my husband really may have felt unloved due to our lack of intimacy (not that it is an excuse--but understanding is good.) It also helped him realize where I needed the affection and attention to want to be intimate. <p>funny how it can be just the opposite for men and women. No matter which spouse was bs or ws...it does actually give some insight. Deeper into the book it goes more into some pointers in the bedroom...I would hold off on those chapters till later. Now that I am pretty far into recovery that part was not bad either. Nice to improve instead of analyze so much. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] but it was hell getting to this point.