Is it possible (and do people think it would be a good idea) to set up a forum for WS's who are considering no contact, or going through withdrawal, or wherever they are, to get support and advice from? It seems like one big hurdle to get over is for the WS to know that they are not alone in how they feel - that other people are feeling as strongly as they do struggling as mightily as they are.<p>I know that the emails from FWW's to my WW have helped her a lot. So I think that having a place for WS's to go to vent/seek advice/cry would be a good thing.<p>Opinions?

Baffled:<p>This forum is a great one for both BSs and WSs. You must know that many WSs post her as well, even some BS/WS couples.<p>regards

I actually think that's a good idea BUT! they would have to want to come here. From reading Truehearts letter the WS is in a very lonely place & feel really bad when things come out in the open.
My H has never been able to talk to anyone really & I feel it would have been a great help to him at the time but it was 11yrs ago & a lot has happened in that time thru us not "dealing" with things.

I don't understand why a WS who is truly interested in saving their marriage (NOT just whining about withdrawal) is not free to get help and support here????<p>Just like someone in my shoes (former single OW with an OC) who is interested in protecting myself now, in my marriage, from an affair.<p>For WS's who want to cry about withdrawal from their "soulmates" while they are married to someone, to me, that's just not conducive to MBing. Nobody twists our arms to have affairs. We get to choose. <p>I think this place helps married people who want to save their marriages to make the right choices (meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, protecting against weaknesses), whether a WS or a BS. I also believe that this place is a good place for single people to learn about the devastation of affairs and how no one is immune to them, so they can be prepared for marriage. This place is especially great for single/engaged people who discover their partners are already cheating on them to learn how to RUN for the hills to get away from someone like that...<p>How come you feel this place is not good enough for WS's??? Because of the incredible amount of BSes pain??? Maybe that is part of the problem of WS's feeling alone. Sometimes dealing with their own spouse's pain is much too much. OTOH, I think it is GOOD to see all the open BS wounds and deal with them so then healing can begin. A huge part of the WS's recovery IS taking responsibility for the wounds they are responsible for CAUSING! BS is innocent. OC is innocent. WS is guilty. WS pain is self-inflicted... Just like OP's self-inflicted pain for CHOOSING to have affairs.<p>Right??? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>For WS's who are in abusive situations, they also had the choice to get out of the marriage if they really didn't want to be there, regardless.

Baffled,
As a FWS I would love to have a forum where I could go and talk with other WS's who are having trouble with withdrawl, and sticking to their guns. It is so hard for BS to understand the heart ache, torture, and struggle a WS goes through trying to stop the addiction. It is a day by day thing that takes a long time to get over...a really long time, and understandable, BS can only be sypathetic up to a point. <p>I haven't been in touch with the OM for a month today! But, yesterday was really, really hard. I missed the OM, I wanted to connect with him, and I needed to talk with someone who understood my pain. I'm sure what I say, is so freaking hard for BS to read, listen to, sympathize with, it probably makes them want to go ballistic....but we, WS also feel pain, need to share the pain, and need the support of others to help us stay strong.<p>So, my vote is yes. It's needed. But I don't know how to make it happen.<p>AS

I think it might would be beneficial.. but I have to say I have learned more from the BS's on the forum where I post. They have taught me alot. <p> I do understand how hard it is for the WS.. but what I am confused about is .. Why any of the WS'S would tell there spouse how much they miss the OM or how much they love the other person or need them. Seems that would add fuel to the fire...<p> I cried to my self for months and the thought didnt leave my head for months, but never did I say...I miss him so much.

Yes it is hard for a BS to hear WS’s lament about the OP and their pain. I know that withdrawal is an important stage for a WS to go through. But it’s usually too painful for any BS to be supportive of the WS at that time. It is self-inflicted pain and therefore hard to hear and hard to have sympathy for. <p>On the other side of the coin, it seems that few WS have much understanding and/or sympathy for the pain BS’s feel. If they did, they would not have had the affair to start with. That is why I think both BS’s and WS’s need to be on one forum. There is a lot that each side has to learn from the other. It is important for a BS to learn of the struggles WS’s go through. It was important for me to learn of the guilt and self-recrimination my H went through and to see that many WS’s go through this. It was also important for me to see that other WS’s do not care if they have hurt their spouse and feel justified in their affair. Each situation is unique to some extent. We need to learn this.<p>If there had not been other WS’s on this forum to share their experiences with me I would have never believed my H when he told me that he did not know why he had his affairs, he felt driven. Yet all through it he was happy in our relationship and loved me. <p>My concern about a separate WS forum in a Marriage Building forum is that many WS’s will give each other support in continuing the affair. I’ve seen it here with WS’s in the past. If that is where a WS is coming from, then they need to find another forum for support <p>If on the other hand a WS truly wants to end the affair and recover their marriage then this is a good forum for them. What is offered here is another part of the healing process.<p>The idea of this forum, MB, is for people to learn the MB principles and implement them in their lives and in their marriage. It is not to give support for all the pain and trials in one’s life.<p>If WS want their own forum, why not be proactive and contact the Harley’s? Ask if they will set one up? If they will not, then start your own forum. Or perhaps you can start an email support system for the WS’s who want to this type of support. <p>IMHO, a forum for supporting WS’s to the exclusion of the BS will not help build marriages. Just as it takes two to make a marriage work, it takes both the BS’s and the WS’s to make this forum work.

Since WS in an A, or in early no contact sometimes aren't the most clear-thinking folk (and don't bother bashing me, I'm both FBS & FWS) who would be on the board to positively urge toward marital recovery? <p>Few recovered FWS stay here long, because they want their lives to move past the A, so they wouldn't necessarily be around to guide the newer WSs. The ones who would, are already here.<p>I know the more I post about the FOM, the more I think about him. I'm pretty far into recovery, so, it's managable, I know how to re-direct my thoughts--a call to my H is the best. But I think if I were reading solely about WS's longing for the OP, wanting to contact, succeeding in contact...there are days that really wouldn't be good for me.<p>I like GQII because of it's balance. Somedays it is overwhelming in the broad spectrum of posters, but valuable for the very same reason. <p>And, WS generally get many many more responses than BS do. <p>The willingness to support through WS withdrawal is here. The willingness to insert reality into fantasy can be difficult for WS, but it is...reality.

All good points. I guess the reason I think a forum for WS might be helpful is that I suspect that many WS's who need support are not tough enough to withstand some of the flames in this forum. I think a cry for help sometimes is a trigger for a BS to vent a bit. I'm a BS, I know the hurt and the damage that the A causes. But I also can see the struggle in my W to try to come back. I see the hurt she is going through. Is self inflicted pain easier to deal with? I don't think so.<p>I guess the possibility of a WS forum encouraging continuing A's is the thing that is most troubling to me. But I really think that there are a lot of WS who genuinely want to get through this, but need support. And the BS is not necessarily the best person to give it.

Baffled,<p>Interesting idea. Clearly this was done for the pregnancy section and I think it has helped to some extent, but it has also hurt. That section is pretty insulated from the rest of the board, so the bonds get pretty tight between posters and new posters often have some problems.<p>I, like Lor and a few others, date back to when there was only one place to post and frankly it was much better in many ways because everyone was introduced to a wide spectrum of problems. However, as more people posted it was getting very hard to keep up, it was split up.<p>There is some cross traffic between the various sections but not as much as perhaps there could be.<p>Now, since I am neither a WS nor a BS, my perspective may be off, but in the years that I have been reading and posting here, some of the most effective people on this site are the WS's. Why? Because they often tell the BS's things they cannot or do not want to hear from their WS. <p>But, since it is not personal, the advice, the point of view is accepted. I think the opposite can be said as well. The WS will not believe their BS about the pain, the uncertainty, the loss of self-esteem, but when they see the same thing over and over on this board, they realize that their BS is not lying to them.<p>Frankly, I think it is good that there is a mix and would fear that making a new section would inhibit that mix. <p>One last question Baffled, have you ever discussed with your W the idea of posting here? I understand that several people are emailing her and I think that is great, but if she saw the bigger picture it might help her.<p>There are a few flames thrown around, but not very many. My observation is that when someone genuinally (sp) wants help, the people here will help, and yes even understand as they talk about the pain of missing OP. That pain needs to come out and here is a good place for it.<p>So you have my $0.02, but do contact the Harley's and see what they say.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Baffled-
I'm a WS, and in the MB world, I'm getting to be an oldish timer.<p>I agree with you that when a WS is really new, they may not be tough enough to handle the unintentional flames by BS on these boards. When I first came here I read, never posted, and felt like it was a place for BS to get support, and for WS to get slammed. This is because I was extremely sensitive and defensive. Every generalization about WSs (there are plenty every day) being selfish, immoral, uncaring, lying cheating scum, etc. I took as a personal attack. Basically, in may frame of mind, I had to "toughen up" before I could participate here. <p>I still hate to see brand new WSs come to MB in a painful fog, and get the "tough love" treatment handed out on occaision. Some BS can't resist trying to tell the newbies to get real. Problem is, it doesn't usually work. Most of those WS leave. <p>So, to some extent, I see your point, but I don't know if a separate forum will help. What would prevent well-meaning BSs from posting to them? And, in the long run, I have learned a lot from BSs. And, I think, the people I may have helped the most by sticking around here are also BSs. Actually, your idea of keeping the emotionally unstable, raw new WS "isolated" might work better as it is now. Let them e-mail someone they connnect with until they feel up to the general discussions. I did this by not reading hardly any posts, and just posting to a "trusted few" (mainly SKM, JL and a few others).

I agree that seeing both sides of the issue is critical. The comments from WS's have been invaluable to me in understanding the "other side", and I think the BS posts have helped my W understand me better. But if there was a place primarily for WS's in crisis, it would provide a great place for FWS's to do a lot of good. As was said earlier, FWS's tend to go away - maybe to not revisit the pain of the BS. But if they had a place where they could primarily mentor - maybe they would stick around.<p>Obviously, just because there was a WS forum doesn't mean that WS would stay off of the other ones, or at least read the others. It just might be helpful to have a "safer" place. I'll mention this to SH - have a session with him tomorrow.

i'm a ws... i am also what you the forumnites call a lurker... (i wish the forum had a different name than lurker... there's nothing positive about the definition of lurker in my dictionary... just what i need, one more negative title)...<p>i already know that i'm a lying, cheating, selfish whatever else you bs want to call me...<p>on the other hand, i am also a human being who has issues... until today, i've been afraid to post here... why?... because whenever a ws asked a question on how to deal with how they are feeling you bs tend to slap... (understand, i don't blame you... you bs have every right considering what us ws did)... but we are human, we can and do make mistakes and we also need help in trying to get back on the right path...<p>i beleive that if marriage is to be saved then both the bs and the ws need to have a safe haven to air their thoughts and feeling... this board is a safe haven for the bs... it is not a safe haven for the ws...<p>thank you baffled for starting this thread... we ws's need support also...

Interesting... I'm not sure if it would work or not... I was kind of overwhelmed with all the forums when I first came here. It is kind of nice to avoid certain topics because they don't pertain to you, like the divorce or pregnancy forum. I am not phased by flaming that might come from a BS, but others might be. It could be something to consider.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ashirley:
<strong>Baffled,
It is so hard for BS to understand the heart ache, torture, and struggle a WS goes through trying to stop the addiction. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think it's hard at all. The problem is that our heart is aching, we are being tortured by the WS, and we are struggling as well. I understand that the pain is there regardless of whether it was self-inflicted or other-inflicted. But part of the easing of both parties' pain is dependent upon the perpetrator's behavioral choices. In the case of infidelity, the perpetrator of both partners' infidelity-related pain is the WS. The BS is the victim, not the WS.<p>As long as the WS sees himself/herself as a victim, the pain will continue for both the WS and the BS. When the WS owns both parties' pain for which s/he is responsible, both parties' wounds will begin to heal. I may not have been a WS, but I am a sinner, and I know that as long as I'm running away from my responsibilities and trying to cast the blame elsewhere or focusing on what I want that I cannot have, the pain continues. It is only when I stop, face it, and do something about it, that it gets better.<p>The way to recover from addiction is to STOP thinking about and focusing on the addiction and the object of your obsession. If your addiction was to nicotine, talking about cigarettes and the times you enjoyed smoking the most and what you miss most about it and how it used to help you get through the day and all that will not help you turn your focus AWAY from the obsession--it just perpetuates it.<p>You have to focus on something else, in the case of marital recovery--that. Having a plan and following the plan is the shortest route through the pain. There are also behavioral therapies that can be utilized to overcome addiction to a person, especially a toxic person, as the OM is to you and your M.<p>Letting Go is an excellent book for behavioral therapy exercises. It helped me let go of my feelings for my ex-H--a man I had been with for 17 years and had numerous children with, built a whole life with, spent part of my childhood and all of my adult life with--within the 12 weeks of following their plan. If it can help with that deep of an attachment, it sure can't hurt to try it on an attachment to an OP.<p>IMO based upon my experiences with addiction, I think it is more helpful for successfully recovering WS who have already made it through withdrawal to the other side to commiserate with and encourage withdrawing WS. Successfully recovering WS can much better help to maintain the necessary focus. Withdrawing WS will be more likely to keep the focus on the OP they're each longing for and end up prolonging each other's pain.

Everybody gets flamed here at one time or another, for one thing or another. Misunderstandings occur. My point is, if a WS still considers themself a WS--then NO! Marrige Builders is NOT the forum for them. (NOT!)<p>The advice here is NO CONTACT, MOVE TO ANOTHER STATE, TREAT THE AFFAIR AND THE OP LIKE THE ADDICTION THAT IT IS AND PUT IT FAR FROM YOU, NO LOVE BUSTING = DISHONESTY, ETC, FILL YOUR SPOUSE'S EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Period.<p>I think if a WS is really ready to leave the lifestyle behind and refocus on their marriage, then they need to hunker down, toughen up, face the pain and move on. That's why this place is anonymous. We can take out our personal frustrations without taking people's opinions personally--only the Harley concepts.<p>This place is for getting answers to questions based on Marriage Building concepts, not for catering to our emotions... basically... But, that's just my opinion... (a former OW)...

Hey oaktown-
You sound just like I felt when I just started posting. It is hard not to take it all personally. You do need help and support. I hope you are getting it from somewhere.
Post if you want.
Some of us WILL try to help you.

Oaktown,
I like to think of myself as a former WS...I haven't been in touch with the OM for a month! But, I struggle on a daily basis to be strong and to keep myself from contacting the OM. Feel free to email me, bc in contrast to Conqueror, I have found that sharing my feelings with other WSs has given me the strength to continue on the right path. Unfortunately, often many of these things are easier said than done! ashirley1@hotmail.com.

conqueror...<p>by no stretch of the imagination am i the victim... i am not a villain either... just a woman who made a poor choice and the biggest mistake of my 43+ years...<p>btdt...<p>if a ws really considers themselves a ws they would not be wasting their time on this forum... unless of course, they're sadistic... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ashirley and clouds...<p>i'm trying... it's hard not to put the shoes on since they fit so well...<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: oaktown ]</p>

Yes, I vote yes too. As incredible as it is for a BS or anyone else to undestand there is an incredible power of an OM or OW that we are trying to understand ourselves. I think for the WS's who come here or anywahere they should be able to find the answers. Sometimes, the consquences of an EA Or PA etc.. arn't enough to halt the pains of an addiction. If you have an alcoholic or drug addict in your family you'll know what I mean. Even then, we don't really know what it is.If we can come here to talk, maybe we can encourage each other to seek more professional help. I also, understand that the BS, has probably had it and wants to see the WS suffer. And I guess in my case whatever my conclusion is, I may have to do it alone. I wouldn't want to put my H through hell!<p>MissJ...... 3 weeks sober... or OM free today and happy!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>PS "Can an alcoholic ever say they are not an alcoholic?" When an alchoholic is sober, dosn't mean they don't smell it, feel it, taste it....but with help and support, the urges become fewer and far between" By the "grace of God" we are free one more day. "One day at a time"<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: MissJasmine ]</p>