Long Term Long Distance Relationships - Marriage Builders® Forums

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My girlfriend and i have been dating for 4 years now. She is 25 and I am 29. Two of those years she was serving in the Peace Corps in Guatemala while I was in school in florida completeing my Master's degree. Another one of those years she has lived at home (Orlando) while i have been in another city (Sarasota & Gainesville) about 2 hours drive away. So, in all reality we have really only lived in the same town for a year. The problem is that she is having doubts now that I might not be "the one" for her or that she will not be able to love me for the rest of her life. Is this b/c we have been seperated for so long that she has grow apart from me. When we see each other we are very happy and can both tell there is a connection. We are best friends and both agonizing over what to do? Is there a time limit to decide whether to stay wth someone or to move on?

ericstm,Long distance realtionships can be a blessing and a curse. They can help you really get to know the other person with out the confusion of physical contact. You probably talked on the phone, e-mailed and wrote alot to each other while seperated. Distance can also test ones commtment to the other person.The down side of a long distance realtionship is that during the time of seperation you couldn't work on the day to day routine of a relationship. When you are together it is not routine but special every day. You mention that your GF is not sure that you are the one and she is concerned whether she will "be able" to love you for a life time. The love in a marriage relationship is more about commitment and less about feelings then most folks realize before they tie the knot.The more important question your GF (and you) need to answer is "Is this the person I am willing to promise to love for the rest of my life".The feeling of "being in love" fades in and out in the best of marriages. The difference between the marriages that survive the inevitable "out of love" phases of marriage and the ones that don't is commitment. Feeling "in love" will never create commitment. But commitment can create feelings of "being in love". Oh and by the way commitment is a lot of work!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mudder: ericstm,Long distance realtionships can be a blessing and a curse. They can help you really get to know the other person with out the confusion of physical contact. You probably talked on the phone, e-mailed and wrote alot to each other while seperated. Distance can also test ones commtment to the other person.The down side of a long distance realtionship is that during the time of seperation you couldn't work on the day to day routine of a relationship. When you are together it is not routine but special every day. You mention that your GF is not sure that you are the one and she is concerned whether she will "be able" to love you for a life time. The love in a marriage relationship is more about commitment and less about feelings then most folks realize before they tie the knot.The more important question your GF (and you) need to answer is "Is this the person I am willing to promise to love for the rest of my life".The feeling of "being in love" fades in and out in the best of marriages. The difference between the marriages that survive the inevitable "out of love" phases of marriage and the ones that don't is commitment. Feeling "in love" will never create commitment. But commitment can create feelings of "being in love". Oh and by the way commitment is a lot of work!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Things have gotten worse since my last post. We went to a wedding together this past weekend and everything was fine. Later that weekend she told me that she wanted to see this other guy to see if she had any "feelings" for him. She says they are just friends and that she loves me but she needds to find out so she can be sure about us. So, Sunday night we decided to seperate (sounds like we are married already) until easter. It was extremely painful for the two of us and took about 2 hours. I felt like we had made the right decision (giving her space and all) but after sleeping on it all I could think was that I had made a mistake and pushed her into the arms of this other guy. We spoke last (Monday) and ended up getting into an argument. Has the distance in our relationship caused us to drift apart?? I spoke with her this morning and told her that I would try to giver her space (not call or e-mail) until we see each other on the 24th or 25th but I also said she should not have any contact witht his other guy. Am I doing the right thing? Please help!

I'm surprised others haven't chimed in here so I'll give you my 2 cents. I think the seperation is probably good for both of you. Take the time to clear your head. Get busy with a hobby or sport or your career or volunteer at a charitable organization. I would not put any restrictions on your GF though. If the point is to be sure she can commit to you for the rest of her life you need to let her go. Now what she decides to do during this period of seperation may effect whether you want to commit to her for the rest of your life. You run more risk of pushing her away (or into another guys arms)but puting restrictions on her at this time.

"If you love something let it go...if it comes back to you it is meant to be." The seperation will probably do both of you some good. I wouldn't say that you are "pushing her into the arms of the other guy". If you were to tell her not to see anyone else why you are seperated, then of course to her the grass is going to look greener on the other side. It is better that she is having doubts now then once you get married. Being married isn't defined on whether or not you could love a person for the rest of your life, but can you be committed to this person through the good times AND the bad times. Yes, you do need love in a marriage but it takes alot more then love to keep a marriage together!! I know that no matter what anyones says, the hurt doesn't get any easier for you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Try to keep yourself as busy as possible and try not to dwell on it-it will only make it worse. Best of luck!

So, we agreed not to speak to, write to or see each other. The problem is that neither one of us had been able to stay away from the other. Just last night my GF called just to say goodnight. What should I do now? I feel mean spirted if I say we should not talk but at the same I am having a tough time with the situation. Should I remain firm on our decision even though she wants to talk every now and then??

No, no, no! If your GF calls, you definitely should not tell her she's breaking the agreement not to talk. By being there for her when she wants to talk, you'll build up a balance in her Love Bank. The cruelest thing about relationships - all relationships, married or otherwise - is that the time when the couple re-evaluates whether or not they want to remain together is by definition the time when their Love Banks are lowest and the answer is therefore more likely to be no than at any other time! It's like running a marathon and asking yourself in the middle of mile 22 if you ever want to run a marathon again. I also think you need to officially apologize for telling her not to see the other guy, and remove all "limits" on seeing other people during your separation... for both of you. Try to date at least one other girl during the separation, to give yourself some perspective as well and so that you don't feel cheated on if you and your GF get back together. I think it's great that you've settled on Easter as a time to reevaluate your relationship, simply because it's good to have a "deadline" so both you and your GF know what to expect. But don't be opposed to extending the deadline if that's what you or your GF need, and give a little thought to moving it to the weekend after if you and/or your GF are Christian - you might break up for good after the separation, and if you do Easter will forever be a reminder of that. If you read my profile, you'll see my BF and I also went through a separation. It started on Tax Day, April 15th, and we were apart a little over a year and the next year, all the commercials for H+R Block and so on brought me to tears! If you and your GF really "can't" stay away from each other, consider "dating" each other. (keep it casual if either of you is uncomfortable with the dating idea) Set up a time to meet and talk, maybe lunch on Saturday. Keep this to once a week, and it may help you each go your separate ways the rest of the week because you'll know you have that time set aside to talk.Well, I hope some of this helps. Keep posting and let us know how you are![This message has been edited by younglove (edited March 10, 2000).]

That was the hardest weekend I have ever been through. I was the first time we have not spoken or been with each other since she came back from the Peace Corps (7 months ago). I can't seem to shake the feeling that she is moving on with her life while I am stuck here without her. I am basically losing my mind slowly. She went up to Gainesville to interview with some professors for gradutate school. I knew she was going but wonder if she went up over the weekend. I don't want to check up on her b/c that is never what we have been about and I don't feel right about it. I trust her!!She called yesterday afternoon, (I had stepped out) and left a message that she was going to stay another night at her sisters. Said she was going to see Bill Nye, The Science Guy. I called back and her sister told me that she had gone over to this other guys house. At that moment I lost all hope. Has she moved past me already?? I can't belive that after 4 years of devotion to one another that it is all ending so suddenly. Is it ending?? Am I over reacting?? Help, please![This message has been edited by ericstm (edited March 14, 2000).]

Eric-I understand what you mean when you say you think you're losing your mind slowly. It feels like the more time that passes, the less chance your relationship can be rekindled. But that's not always true. Gaining some distance and perspective sometimes has the opposite effect. My boyfriend and I were together for about two years when we separated. We were separated for 18 months, and during that separation considered ourselves broken up for good - but that's not the way it turned out. We got back together, and it's been two and a half years since. So, even as the weeks turn into months, it's not a death warrant for the relationship.What does matter is, what are you doing in the meantime? As hard as it is, don't spend all your free time thinking of her, rereading letters from her, etc. Dwelling on it only makes it worse (I think you got the same advice a few posts ago, sorry to repeat but it's true!). Get outside, get some exercise, read an interesting book, call a friend, do something to keep your mind occupied. If she called to tell you she's staying another night at her sister's, then all hope is not lost. If it was completely, irretrievably over, she wouldn't bother to call you and tell you anything about where she is and when she'll be home. When she called and you weren't home, that's not so terribly different from when you called back and she wasn't home, now is it? It doesn't mean you're leaving her behind it just means you weren't home then. So about that, I do suspect you are overreacting a little.As for this other guy, the absolute worst thing you could do would be to be critical of him to your GF. That will only show her the worst of you and he will look better by comparison. If she's truly interested in someone else - either in someone in particular or in the idea of seeing other guys in general - there's nothing you can do about it, you just have to wait it out. Even if you could convince her not to see other guys, (which you probably couldn't) would you really want to? Would you want to marry her knowing she wonders what it would be like to be with someone else? If she comes back, you'll know she wants you, and if she doesn't, although it will hurt it will at least save you the bigger hurt of finding out she's not sure about your relationship AFTER you're married.Hang in there![This message has been edited by younglove (edited March 14, 2000).]

Thanks for all the support but I got the call tonight and it is definatly over. I apperciate all your kind words and advice. Time to move on.Thanks everyone

I'm so sorry, Eric. You must be hurting now - please know that the wonderful people on this message board are very good at being supportive. If you need a place to vent, or a little companionship, you know where to look.

Wow - today has been a tough one. I think I might have slept for an hour last night. My mind was going through all sorts of scenarios. How do you hurt someone how has been there for you so long like this?? I am slowly coming to terms with the notion that this is for the best but cannot help but feel that she might come back. Maybe not next month but eventually. Problem is I do not know if I can forgive this. I Have to sit down and really evaluate my feelings for this special girl that used to be in my life.By the way the name's Tom.

Oops! Sorry Tom.Try to get as much sleep as you usually would - I know, that's nearly impossible for you right now - get some Nytol or Sominex if you have to. Everything looks worse if on top of it all you're exhausted.Are you feeling like maybe you were duped all along into thinking she cared for you? It's just that you said "How do you hurt someone who has been there for you so long like this?" I know when my BF and I separated I questioned whether I'd been wrong about him and us all along. You don't need to discount the love you once shared - it wasn't built all at once, it didn't end that way either (although it probably feels like it). After some time has passed, you'll probably be able to look back and see red flags - warning signs that something was going wrong in the relationship. Usually the signals are there, but the relationship comes apart slowly and because it's a gradual change, it's hard to notice at the time. Don't beat yourself up wishing you'd noticed the signs - hindsight is always 20/20, you did the best you could at the time - but make mental notes so the same situations can be avoided in your next relationship.The human heart has an amazing capacity to heal and you can love again! Just hang in there...

Today is my birthday. The first one she has been in the states for in 2 years. She always said that we would spend it together. Now she is not here. She took the GRE today and did very well and I was the first person she wanted to share it with so she called me at work. She also called this AM to wish me a happy birthday. Hearing her voice is so hard. It makes me incredibly sad. We had so many plans together. Marriage, children, trips, growing old together. Now it is all gone.I cannot see the end of us. Cannot imagine life without her. It feels all wrong.I am meeting her tomorrow about half way between the two town we live in. We are going to say our goodbyes. I don't know what to expect from that?? I want to share the rest of my life with her.How did you and your BF make it through your seperation? What brought you back together??Her and I will be seperated by 200 miles if she goes back to school and I do not think I will ever see her again unless I run into her by accident. =(I want to stay in touch with her but at the same time it is so painful to hear her voice that I usually break down after I hear it. If there is all this distance and silence between us how will she remember what we had. I pray to God to guide her and restore our love for each other. Just yesterday we were IMing each other and she said she was so sad b/c of all the plans we had made for our lives together. Said she still loved me. Why is she doing this?? I am so confused, so lost. Do I wait for her?? What do I do??

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TOM!I hope you have family and friends close by to share your day with - I almost hope you don't read this before tomorrow, because you're too busy celebrating your birthday...Meeting tomorrow to say your good-byes? OUCH. I'm not sure if the separation my BF and I went through is comparable but here's what happened:He dumped me, hard. I was against the separation from the beginning but he didn't really give me any choice. At first, I was pathetic. I'd call him and try to talk him into getting back together - I felt like he'd put up this wall between us that if I could only get through, I could make him see the mistake he was making. I got enough mixed messages from him to keep up hope - throughout the 16 months we were apart - that we'd one day get back together. After three or four months I backed off a bit and ended up doing Plan A, although I didn't call it that at the time because then I had never heard of Marriage Builders or Steve Harley. You can read all about Plan A in the Q+A. It basically involves avoiding LB as completely as possible and meeting your partner's EN as completely as possible while remaining as cheery as possible... I for one have found that doing Plan A for a year gave me some pretty deep emotional scars that have been difficult to heal once the relationship was back together - but I can't complain too much because he is back. Basically, by doing Plan A you do as much as possible to make your partner's time with you as great as possible for them, which refills their Love Bank but can end up depleting yours.In the end it was more than just Plan A that brought us back together. After we had been apart for 14 months, he left town for the summer. He left in the second week of June and would be back the third week in August, with no way for me to contact him during that time (he was on tour with a drum corps). By this time we had established a tentative friendship, and I dreaded facing the long summer, afraid the time apart would squish our new friendship like a bug. But the time apart ended up being the best thing that ever happened to us... by the end of July I was getting postcards from him, and when he got back in August he told me he'd missed me so much that he knew our break-up had been a mistake.So, for the first 14 months I was afraid of the old cliche "Out of sight, out of mind"... but by being out of his life during that summer he had the opportunity to realize what life apart was like (which he didn't have the first 14 months because I was still hanging around). And he decided on his own that life apart wasn't what he wanted. If I hadn't done Plan A for months first, he might not have missed me when he was away for the summer, because my having done that gave him good things to remember about me instead of the negative things he might have focused on if he'd had time away from me immediately after my break-up. Having not done it any other way, I don't know what the outcome would've been... One thing I really benefited from is that we're both students at the same university, and we only lived a block or two apart during the academic year. The opportunity to Plan A isn't there as much if you're further apart.I'm afraid I haven't been very helpful so far, but I hope some of this helps you rethink your worries about "If there is all this distance and silence between us how will she remember what we had." Sometimes, distance and silence speaks to the heart the loudest.The fact that she called you twice today - once in the morning because it's your b-day and once because of the GRE, and the fact that she IM'd you yesterday that she's sad to lose your plans for a life together and still loves you - sounds to me like maybe she's on the fence a little. I'm ashamed to admit to this, but once, after we'd first gotten back together, I dumped my BF - that's right, the guy I'd just worked so hard to get back! Because I felt like he didn't really want to be with me on his own, that we were together because I'd finally "convinced" him... well, the next day he called me and asked me not to leave him, and that restored my security and I realized I hadn't really wanted to lose him either.If I were you, when you meet your GF tomorrow, I would tell her the things you posted, as calmly as possible. Tell her you love her, don't want to lose her and lose your mutual plans for the future. Tell her you found a website that's taught you a few things, and that you realize now you weren't meeting her emotional needs but that you want to learn to do so. Tell her you want to stay together, but if she says no that you'll respect that. Then actually say the words... ask her to stay. You're free to disregard this advice if you want, I can't guarantee it'll "work", but what it will do is give you some closure... these mixed signals she's sending might be her way of saying "my love bank is empty and I need to be swept off my feet" and then again she may be very serious and resolute in ending the relationship... but my opinion is, if you don't try you'll never know what might've happened if you had.If she says no, the two of you need to decide together whether to maintain a friendship... I know what you mean about it being so hard just to hear her voice. If you want to stay friends, a month or two with no contact may give the wounds a chance to heal, after which it might be easier to talk as friends, but it's up to you...I'll be praying for you. Please let me know how it turns out. The most important thing I realized when dealing with my BF during our separation was that, because we were apart, I constantly felt like the current time I was talking to him was going to be the last. That was never true, it was just a twist in my perception... whether you take my advice or not, whether you say your goodbyes or not, you will talk to her again.Good luck my friend.

this was a duplicate.[This message has been edited by younglove (edited March 17, 2000).]

I do not know if this is true but it feels like she left me for this other guy. I feel so betrayed, so cheated. I was so devoted to my GF for the time that we were together and especially while she was gone in the Peace Corps. Why did we stay togehter for so long?? Why does she now have these doubts?? Why did she want to stay together when she left for the PC? All these questions haunt me. I have no answers for them. The two years that she was gone were so extremely difficult for me. I can't tell you many times I cried myself to sleep b/c I missed her so much. My heart holds on, telling me that she will come back after thinking it through but my mind is telling me otherwise. My mind has been correct about everything that has happened so far. Not only that, but when she makes a decision she does not waver from it no matter what. We have lost each other forever, haven't we?? I cannot imagine not being able to speak with her or hold her hand but that is the reality of this situation. I am so happy for her that she did so well on the GRE. I was the first person she called after it was over to tell me. She sounded so happy. I tried to be excited for her but at the same time it killed me. Why would she call me first? Was there no one else to talk to? I knew that I was no longer part of the journey with her. I was destined to watch as she went by me and left me behind. I am having trouble letting go of the last 4 years. Is there any advice you can give me?? There are times that it hits me so hard I feel like I cannot breath or think. There is so much pain right now.

duplicate[This message has been edited by ericstm (edited March 21, 2000).]

Hi Eric-Did you meet with her on Saturday? What happened?I think you are right in acknowledging that, for now at least, it is time to move on. I wish I could give you the answers you seek - I know how much it hurts to have this hole in your heart and not even understand how and why. If it helps, especially right now, realize that if you two stay in touch a reconciliation may happen sometime in the future. Sometimes I think it's not enough to find the right person, we have to find them at the right time - and perhaps now just isn't that time. My best advice: allow yourself to grieve. The relationship has ended, and in some ways that feels like a "death" - the death of future plans, the death of our beliefs about the relationship and its course. Too often, I think, people are encouraged - by well meaning family and friends - to "get over it" long before they're ready. Ours is not a culture that appreciates grieving. (Remember last spring when those students were killed in Colorado? On the news reports that day after the shootings, anchormen were already talking about "closure"). If you broke your leg, you would rest and allow those close to you to help you. You wouldn't expect to feel 100% again for weeks. The same is true of a broken heart. There's a difference between feeling pain and clinging to it, and feeling it is healthy - only by experiencing your feelings fully can they ever be released.It might make you feel better to do something to commemmorate the relationship. This might sound silly, but think of the importance of funerals to the family of one who died. Rent a movie you both enjoyed, retrace the path of a walk you took together, whatever holds significance for you. Consider counseling to help you move through your grief in a healthy way. Sometimes, it can help just to know that there's time set aside in a week to talk about your feelings with someone who cares and listens. Set little goals for yourself in your own life (related to work, fitness, anything that improves you alone). Go to the gym every other day for a month. Finally sort through a big messy closet. Doing things for yourself will help you rebuild your life one baby step at a time.Know that one day, you will find yourself madly in love with someone else - I know, it doesn't feel possible right now - but it will happen, and then, you'll thank your ex-GF for giving you the opportunity to meet and be with this new person, while recognizing the ex-GF's contributions to your life without pain. It will happen!

Tom-how are you doing? please post!

I'm doing ok. Things on Saturday went as well as they could go. I wrote her a letter telling her that I did not want to lose her and had her read it while i was there with her. I hope that I never have to write anything like that again. I poured my soul into that letter. We went to a state park and walked around and did some swimming and then had lunch together. I don't really know what else to say except that I have been crying every night since then and it does not seem to be getting any easier. The only thing that is better is the fact that I know it is over and I am not stuck in limbo waiting. I do not know if that is better though. I have lost my best friend and girlfriend. I used to so look forward to Friday's b/c I knew I would see her soon. But now I dread them b/c I know I will spend the weekends alone - without her. So, I guess to anwser your question. I am hanging on the best I can. My days are filled with work and thinking about her, my nights are long, quiet and lonely and my weekends are unbearable.

Hi there Younglove.Just wanted to write and let you know how I am doing. I went and spent the weekend with some friends of mine. Of course they are all couples. It makes me miss my GF all the more. My friends mean well but have no clue as to how seeing them togther makes me feel.I would have to say that the weekend - overall - was fun with some emotional rollercoaster rides. The toughest part was going home on Sunday knowing that I will be alone for the next 2 weeks at least. I am not planning any trips to anywhere in the near future. Sunday night I really missed my GF. She was coming into town to pick up a friend at the airport and I had hoped that she would stop by to say hello. Of course, she did not. In retrospect I think that is probably for the best. We had IMed and emailed before the weekend and I had said that I wanted to speak every 2 weeks or so. She agreed but now I do not know if that is the best course of action. I keep flipping back and forth on how I feel about that. I do really want to speak with her (miss her voice) but at the same time....Any thoughts??

Hi Tom-I'm sorry I didn't respond after your last post. I had a helluva weekend. I had a 37 hour long migraine and was utterly miserable. I've just recently started to get migraines and am going to the Dr. this Friday, hopefully he'll prescribe something to help, but this past weekend it was just me, Advil (yeah, right, that almost helped) and an ice pack. But enough of me babbling...It must've been so hard to write that letter and have her read it in front of you. In the long run you will be glad you did. I know it sure doesn't feel like it now, but I believe that in the end breaking up is actually harder on the person who ends the relationship. First of all, they're less likely to get support from family and friends, and may not feel "justified" in being sad and mourning the relationship since the end was their doing. But long after the pain fades, the ender has to wrestle with guilt and doubt that the endee never needs to deal with. Guilt for hurting someone, guilt for knowing they were the one to give up, and doubt indefinitely, not knowing if perhaps they'd made a mistake. A friend of mine is 29, nearing 30, and having an early mid-life crisis right now rethinking every relationship he's ever ended. Now that he's getting older - paunchier, wrinklier - he thinks perhaps he was hasty in ending a relationship with one particular woman he was especially close to, a woman he could've married but it "wasn't the right time". The person who's left behind, however... sure, it feels like your heart's been ripped straight out of your chest, and God knows it's not easy to take. But time will pass, and you will heal, and when the loss fades - and it will in time - you will have good memories of the times you shared and not guilt and doubt about your decision. I strongly believe it's always better to say too much than to let what you feel go unsaid - because then you know you tried, and having done all you could it's easier to move forward.Keep hanging in there! It's absolutely better to know it's over than to have it hanging in midair. Leaving it open to reconciliation is like continually ripping the scab off a wound. By the time it heals it's covered in scar tissue. (sorry for that icky image). Whether or not you should speak to her every two weeks depends on your expectations for the talks. Be honest with yourself - if you'll feel like it's a chance to win her back, and she thinks of as just staying in touch with someone who's been important in her life, you could end up very disappointed, and after speaking to her may feel hurt all over again.Above all KEEP BUSY! Join a gym and work out, learn to speak German, remodel your apartment, read every novel by John Grisham by the end of April... whatever it takes.

Hey ....., Sorry to hear about your migrains. My brother used to get them real bad but they never could tell what was causing them. The eventually went away and he is fine.Thanks for the thoughts. I have been staying pretty busy with friends and going to the gym. I already know german though so maybe it is time for another language =). Well, gotta run. I'm at work and gotta get some stuff done around here. Seems like this is one of those days where these isn't enough time.Take care and thanks.

Please help!I don't know what it is about today but I am on an emotional rollercoaster ride. Problem is there are no high points only lulls between so much sadness. I want to find her where ever she is tell her that we are meant for one another - tell her about all the pain. I feel like without her I have nothing. Without her to share it with me - I have nothing. I am dreading this weekend. I have no plans and know that I will not be able to stop thinking about all the plans we had. I don't know what happened. Yesterday I spoke with a friend who recently got divorced and after speaking with him things seemed much better/clearer. I even got to sleep without talking a sominex. Today has been a complete 180. I fell like she just called me and ended it. I have not felt this bad since the 14th. Why is that? I thought I was getting better.

Tom-You ARE getting better! But it takes time - a few months, probably - but it will happen, just not linearly. It's not like a cold, where you feel your worst at the beginning and then gradually but measurably feel better each day. A few steps forward, where you feel good (or at least okay) for a few days, then a couple steps back where the pain's back full force for a bit, then a few more steps forward... and eventually, the moving forward happens more often, and the backward slides are less frequent and less severe, and one day you realize you feel happy again. And that will happen! Although it feels like you're at the bottom of this enormous valley of despair, know that you are not alone. I say that not to minimize your pain but in the hope that it will comfort you. Many have come before you in that valley and many will follow, others are there now and they like you will climb out slowly. You are not alone in your pain! This may be one of the loneliest, darkest times of your life, but it will pass and things will improve.It may help to take a two-pronged approach to dealing with the down times: (sorry this sounds so technical!) first, to try to identify those things that trigger the most intense pain (listening to a certain sappy radio station, driving past a certain restaurant, etc.) and removing as many of those "sadness triggers" as possible. For now, this probably means temporarily eradicating all traces of your ex-girlfriend (what an ouch that word is) from your apartment. Pack away the letters, pictures, photo albums, gifts, everything, and put it someplace very difficult for you to access. Store the boxes in a friend or relative's basement for a few months if you have to. Someday, those momentos will bring fond memories, but for now, keeping them scattered around is likely to make the break-up seem less real. Yes, when you look at the certain spot on the wall where a favorite picture of her hung, there will be the twinge of knowing what should be there, but within two or three weeks the empty wall will seem more normal. Leaving her picture there means that wall will be a reminder of what was, which poses a psychological barrier to accepting the end of the relationship and moving on. Better yet - buy a new picture for the wall - a landscape, anything you like to look at.Once the triggers are gone, develop a plan for dealing with the times the sadness comes on full force anyway (it will happen, although with the triggers gone it'll happen less often). Is there a longtime buddy, or someone in your family you could call who'll cheer you up? A movie that always makes you laugh? Then, on the bad days, you'll have something to do when the pain hits like a ton of bricks. If you can afford it, plan for a trip, even a short one, by yourself if you must but preferably as part of a small group. Be a tourist in a nearby city - go away for the weekend and visit all the kitschy sights. Planning the trip and having something to look forward to, even in a small way, can help keep thoughts on the future instead of the past. And keep posting!Read your post right before this one - I think it was the 28th? Where you mention your brother had migraines. Remember how you felt when you wrote it? Because it sounds like when you wrote it you were feeling okay - not ecstatic, of course, maybe not even happy - but okay. And that feeling is not gone forever, it will come again, it's only a matter of when. So hang in there!

Tom,Reading your story made me cry. It reminds me of my own breakup with my BF of almost three years. I was also involved in a long-term, long distance relationship that has recently ended. Although the content of my story is a little different than yours, the outcome and heartache is nevertheless the same. I am still coping and griefing, but I know that only time can heal the wound. Meanwhile, I have tried to move on by doing a lot of the things younglove suggested. In addition, I find that writing down my emotions at the time of despair helps me cope. A lot of times when I feel as if I have hit the absolute bottom, I write a letter to my (ex-)BF telling him my pain and suffering, describing in details the emotions I experience at the time. The trick is to save that letter in a folder after you are done with it and keep it in a safe place instead of mailing it. I always feel much better after such a writing session. I have not decided what I am going to do with the letters yet, but I have made it a point to NOT reread the letters I have written. It will only bring back the pain.I wish you the best, and please let us know how you are doing from time to time. It will also be great if you can post some of your coping strategies since we are both on the same boat.

I wish there was somehting I could tell you that has made things better for me. But there is nothing. I spend 2-3 days telling myself that things will be ok, that they are for the best this way. Then on the 4th day my illusion comes crashing down around me. I feel like I have nothing left. The next day I pull myself out of bed and build that illusion all over again, hoping that eventually I will come to believe it.I too, have found solice in writing my feelings down. Since we spent 2 yrs separated by the Gulf of Mexico I have done a lot of writing, to her and to myself. It has a calming effect to get everything out of your system even if the the other person never sees what you have wrote. Another thing I did was to pack up all of the picture albums, letters, anyting that reminded me of her. I took it to her when i met her to say goodbye and gave it all back. I told her I was giving it to her not to hurt her but b/c I could not bear to look at our life together/read all her letters to me telling me how we would be married and have children. I could not close the door on this chapter of my life if those things were still in my posession. One day I will call her and ask her to mail it all back to me b/c it was my life for 4 yrs and I cannot just turn my back on it, but not now.I still wish every night that I had this one picture of us. It was taken in the summner of '97 the day she left for her 2 yrs in the PC. Her mom took it in the front of her house and we are holding onto each other so tight. We each had a copy of it and it got me through so many lonely nights. Now all it would do is cause me to hang on and that is not healthy.My GF was #1 in my life. There was nothing that I would not do for her but i have come to realize that I was never #1 in her life. I was second or third behind her family and even her career (Peace Corps and now school again). Even knowing that now still does not make the pain any easier. I love her more every day still, but know, that we cannot be together. I know that I have lost my best friend and she hers. Our breakup was one sided - she wanted to go so I let her because I loved her. When I met her almost 2 weeks ago to say goodbye there was so much pain for both of us. I could see in her eyes how much she cared for me an how hard it was for her to hurt me. But she did it anyway, that is how strongly she believed that she could not make that final commitment to me. I realized I could make that commitment to her a week after we had started to see each other. Some people see it right away and others never do. Life is funny/cruel that way. I still cling to the hope that one day she will realize what she has given up but I know that I will never be able to forget what she has done. She is figuring out whether or not she has feelings for this OM. That will forever haunt me and I can never forgive her for that. There comes a point in a relationship where there is no going back. We reached that point almost 6 weeks ago now when she told me about her "thoughts/feelings" for us and the OM. Sometimes love is not enough. I come to realize this. If we had met at the right time for both of us we would be together now. It is just not the right time for her. She was a point in her life where she did not know what she wanted to do. She, had a job she hated, could not afford to move to where I lived (we did not want to live together before we were married). She had no direction for the first time in her life. I think that had a lot to do with our breakup.I try to stay as busy as possible but it is tough b/c I am in a place where I do not know many people socially. Basically, I go running and try to get out of the house as much as possible. When I need to speak with someone I call a close friend or my parents and speak with them. It does not always make me feel better but at least I am reseiting the urge to call her. That is the worst thing I can do. I don't know if any of this helps but I am a firm believer in letting your feelings out. Be it to a close friend or on paper b/c keeping them inside will just cause them to fester and then they will always be there. People keep telling me that time will heal my heart. I believe that. I also beleve that I was lucky that I was able to share such a special love with my GF and have her return it to me. Yes, there is bitterness and resentment now but those feelings will fade like all the others and we will be whole again - one day!I hope some if this helps. If you need me I am here - ok.

First- is it Eric or Tom? I just can't figure that out. It's been a long long time since I've lurked here but if you go way way back you may find some of my posts describing my unfortunate situation - a situation with some similarities to yours. Anyway, I too had a long distance thing going on the naive belief it would work. And what's worse, I was within 3 weeks of getting hitched(!) (She 'promised' all along that she was only going to stay at the new job for two years tops, etc - long story) You may consider yourself lucky in one sense: at least your GF was emotionally honest with you. But maybe that's besides the point. So is MY belief that long distance things just don't work and that if your GF met 'someone else', it was probably over long before she admitted. But anyway, I want to tell you that as insanely (sp?) upset as I was it passed more quickly than I expected. The best part about a LD thing is that you don't have to worry about bumping into the ex when you really don't want to. That was a huge help for me. "Out of sight" really does help the "out of mind" part. AND it gets better. I won't bother you with the 'time heals..' bs and 'you'll meet someone else.' Of course you know that since you've heard it a million times. I can say this: once you do meet someone else who lives NEAR YOU you'll think the proximity is the greatest thing in the world. Since you've forgotten what it's like, you'll marvel at how much easier it all is - and that will make you most happy. (Which won't exactly hurt your new relationship.) You'll hear yourself saying "this is GREAT" then "what was I thinking?"In short, life is about to get a lot better for you. LD relationships suck; they're physically demanding, financially draining, and emotionally damaging. I defy anyone who says differently. Speaking to you from the other side I have much confidence you'll soon feel the same way! Probably sooner than you think.Hope I don't sound too haughty. I don't mean to. But I do say the above with sincerityBest of luck Dave from NJps -someone earlier suggested setting a goal. You run, right? Well, it just so happens that the NYC Marathon starts taking applications SOON (the race is in Nov.) Just a thought. For details: <A HREF="http://www.nyrrc.org" TARGET=_blank>www.nyrrc.org</A>

Hi Younglove. I am feeling better - a little bit anyway. I keep hoping that she will come back. I cannot let go of that thought. I think it everyday almost constantly. I know that I have not accepted that it is over.Between the thoughts of her coming back I also have all this anger at what she did. I keep telling myself she left me b/c she thought she could not marry me. But we spoke on a thursday one night and I was ready to end it then. She asked me to please give her 2 weeks so she could try to figure it out. THat weekend she went to see this OM and when she came back on Tuesday the following week she wanted to end it, and so we did. I feel so betrayed by that. I do not think I can ever forgive that. Is that wrong?? Am I being selfish? I can't help but dwell on that fact. Also, some of the things she said to me about this OM. Like, "I can see the way her adores me when I look into his eyes" are so hurtful even now 6 weeks later. How could she possibly think that he cared more for her than me. I was there for her - always. No matter what. I supported her in all that she did even if it hurt me. Her goign the the PC is a perfect example. I died a little each day that we were apart yet I was not critical of the situation and wrote to her every day so she would have a steady stream of letters/support to read. Why did I let her do those things and still be nice and there for her?? I should have walked away right from the start. I think that now I regret putting up with all the pain and not just walking away 6 weeks ago. She asked me one day. What if after we break up and I realize I made a big mistake? Would you take me back? At the time she asked this I told her never to worry about me not taking her back that I would always. Now I know I would really struggle with that decision. How do you work something like this out?? Is there a way? God, I miss her so much. Every little thing. I miss the way we used to laugh together and the way it made me feel. It just lives in my memory now and it is fading. That hurts me more than I can explain.

Hi Tom-Whoo, boy. I sure am going to take a flogging for this. All of my other advice so far has been the "healthy" thing to do, and this is far from it. But I remember so well the agony of being left behind while the one you love blazes new trails without you.This is such a terribly wrenching experience - on the one hand, there's the betrayal you feel, you're furious at her because how the hell could she do this! But then there's still the love and loyalty... and the two parts of your heart duke it out until only shreds are left. You're not wrong to feel this way, and you're not selfish - I don't blame you for wishing you'd been the one to leave six weeks ago. It does pinch the pride a little to be the one that's left, and I think what you're feeling is an "Oh, yeah? Well, I was going to leave you first!" Completely understandable. I felt the same way. You want the person back so badly but part of you has been so hurt that you don't know if you could trust her again if you got her back.If you'd rather just have someplace to vent and know someone will listen, I'd be happy to keep my two cents to myself. But just in case you want it... if I were you (which is not to imply this is the healthy or "right" thing to do, but merely what I would do) I would call her and ask her if the two of you can try again. Here's why: you said that on a Thursday, you wanted to end it, and she saw the OM that weekend. Then on Tuesday, she said she wanted to end it. Well, any OM would seem like a good choice if you know your BF is about to dump you. It's possible she thought your break-up was inevitable, that you were going to end it with her anyway... maybe not. But right now you're feeling like you wish you'd dumped her first - maybe she didn't want to give you the chance to be the one to break it off and thought that's what was going to happen.Second, one of two things will happen. Either she'll say yes, in which case you'll have a lot of work ahead of you but the hope you'll have will ease the pain. Or, she'll say no, which will hurt like the dickens... but as crazy as it sounds, that may make you feel better by helping you accept the end.

Hey Younglove, I do not think I will call her and ask her back b/c I have done enough groveling. Right now I think that she does not deserve a guy like me - I'm to good for her. When she realizes what she gave up she will know it. When the next guy she goes out with treats her like crap she will know.Right now I am just angry with her. Yesterday I broke down and cried for about an hour. I think that should hold me over for another week or so. I feel so weak when that happens. All day yesterday I wanted to write/call her. I am so glad I did not b/c I would have had nothing good to say. Only hurtful things.But I do appreciate your 2 cents worth and I hope that you continue to give me your opinions/thoughts on things. Like I wrote a friend of mine the other day; having people to write to and and speak with helps so much I can't even begin to explain.Thanks

Ericstm, I have read your postings and me too have been in a long distance relationship. One thing I can tell you is to stop trying to contact your girlfriend altogether. I know it will feel like impossible to do but believe me if she has sent you mixed messages you should not be kept hanging by a thread. My suggestion is this. (right now I think it is worth the shot) considering she seems to want to move on. Do not contact her AT ALL make sure she notices that you have moved on with your life in the sense that you go out with friends and are happy. This might sound cruel but presently I am reading the book suggested in this site called Divorce Busters and one thing the book suggests is that when you keep on trying to convince your loved one how much she means to you it will make her more adamant to stop the relationship. So the idea is this make sure she notices you are happy (I know that right now you might say "yeah as if I can bear to look at her let alone show her I am happy") please try and try. Count the seconds if necessary make a picture in your head of what and how you will act but make sure she gets the message and then try to be nice and caring towards other girls in her prescence to show her what she is about to lose (do not flirt just be nice) then move back and wait do not succomb to calling her (lock your self in a room if necessary). I know this suggestion might sound harsh but the idea is based on solution oriented therapy which is when all else fails try this! If it works then you are fine but please do not become a yo yo for her I know you love her. I honestly can see all the pain you are going through but now that you are still in a stage where she seems to care but in a maze make sure you get her once and for all to decide. The hard part is that if she decides for the worst then you have to accept it too. But for now I suggest you do this. I hope I have been of some help and that your girlfriend gets it into her head to return to you but at this point such words are not good to you. And another thing which might sound crazy which I do with myself reassure yourself do not become a wreck PLEASE do not. And remember you are in my prayers in a strong way. Take care Hopeful

Hi Tom-Your latest post - about not wanting to call her, she'll realize later what she's missing - sounds much stronger and more confident than some of your previous posts. Good for you! I am, however, very leery of the type of game playing you suggest, Stubborn (hopeful? I wasn't sure why your user name and sign-off are different). Sure, maybe sometimes it helps, but sometimes it backfires and the consequences last a lifetime. I stand by my earlier advice that, when someone is struggling to accept the end of the relationship, it's best to call the ex-partner. This, too, is "solution-based": either reconciliation happens or the caller is rebuffed. Painful, yes, but that can help him or her accept the end. I don't mean to be judgmental, it's certainly an understandable reaction and one I too frequently felt when left behind - but don't hang onto the anger to your ex-GF too long. I may be wrong, but it seems to me your revengeful statements about her stem from your own anger. Anger can be nice - it's certainly "easier" to bear than sadness - but anger can eat a hole in your heart and make it hard to love again if it's not released.Sorry for the psychobabble - I was up quite early today and I think it must be naptime.

Younglove,Thanks for writing back. As far as calling her and asking her to come back – I would love to do that. But the relationship has ended. She told me that she wanted to break up on March 14th. I know what she will say if I ask her. She will say “no, I love you but I cannot marry you and that is why we cannot be together.”I do want to call her. I am not angry at her, I am sad for us b/c we had so many plans. When I see a young couple with children I think of her and I and how our family would have been. I am not playing a game with her, I am trying to respect what her wishes are. She does not want any contact with me right now. God knows that I want to call her every day like we used to speak. But should I not respect her wishes??

Tom (ericstm):I think you are right to back off. Four years ago, my boyfriend broke up with me to go back to an ex with whom he'd had a longer previous history with at the time. For some time he vacillated trying to decide if he should stay with me or go back to her. I knew about it the whole time, so I did not feel it he was "cheating" on me, especially because we'd only been going out for four months at the time.With all that said, here is my point (and it is a point of some encouragement). I finally told him to get the things he had left at my apartment, and leave me out of it because I had waited long enough (about two months). He did try to have a relationship with her, but now instead of looking at it from the stand point of which one of us he preferred, he now had to look at only whether or not the relationship between he and his ex was something he really was happy with. I would hear from him about once every 2.5 months for about 9 months. That last time I told him that I really cared for him and was interested in a relationship, not a friendship with him, and told him never to call me again.Apparently, realizing that he would lose me forever was something that he thought a great deal about the next 4 months. Also, the relationship with the ex was not working out. He broke up with her, and begged me to give him a second chance. With PLENTY of hesitation, I did give him a second chance. I gave him a second chance over three years ago. We have been together ever since, and in time I got over the fact that he went back to his ex for that time. It wasn't easy, but it has been worth it. I am very much in love with him, and he with me. And we talk about a future together all the time now.Of course, no-one knows if your ex girlfriend will come around, but I firmly believe the only way she might is if you cut her loose completely. If I knew then, what I know now, I would have ask my boyfriend to get his stuff from my apartment weeks sooner than I had, and would have not allowed those couple of phone calls that happened while he was still with her. I would have politely said, "I really like you. But I cannot talk to you if you are still going out with her. Please only call me if you ever break up with her."In your case you have a much longer history with her, so this might not be what you would like to do. On the other hand, I think there is nothing wrong with you asking if she has discontinued seeing this other guy. After all, if he is "so great" why didn't she run and tell him about the GRE results? I think she needs to see what life is REALLY like without you. She will never know if you do not allow her to see.She sounds confused, not firm, about her decision to leave. I don't want to give you false hope, but she doesn't sound confident about her own decision at all (from what I've read).But for right now it is important for you to grieve when you need to, and to distract yourself with a new routine to get through this no matter what happens in the future.God bless you, and I will pray for you!

Duplicate message - erasing...[This message has been edited by felix18 (edited April 09, 2000).]

Hi Tom-I didn't mean to imply that your current behavior is game-playing, the game comment was directed to stubborn/hopeful, because s/he suggested you let your ex-GF see you being happy with others, treating other girls well, etc., etc. From what I've heard of your situation, this isn't even possible, due to the distance, but even if it was possible I think it's inadvisable. Personally, my belief is that playing games makes a farce of the relationship.I'm sorry if you've explained this in previous posts and I've just forgotten - but when she told you she can't marry you, was she more specific as to why? Just wondering. I guess I just have more of an optimistic approach than most. My BF and I just had a wonderful weekend together, and finally started in on Dr. Harley's workbook, so although we've had our fair share of problems right now I'm particularly optimistic for the possibilities of reconciliation in derailed long-term relationships.During our break-up, my BF told me repeatedly that it was o-v-e-r. He also told me repeatedly he still loved me, and call me naive, call me a hopeless romantic, but I believed those two statements to be mutually exclusive. In our case, my persistence worked. Nearly every day he thanks me for sticking with him even while he shoved me away. I'm sure there are plenty of couples for whom this didn't work and for whom ending contact might have worked, but there are also lots of couples like me and my BF for whom love and loyalty won out. My opinions are based on what I've seen to be successful, and I don't know anyone at all for whom distance brought them closer together. All I've seen distance do is widen the gap. That's not all it need do, but that's all I've known it to do. In general, yes, you should respect your GF's wishes. But as I've heard my BF say more than once - what he said he wanted and what he really wanted in his heart weren't the same during that time, but the fear our problems were intractable froze his heart to what was inside. Had I kept my distance, it wouldn't have thawed. I agree with Felix that it sounds as though your GF is a bit confused as to what she wants. Also, comparing situations with Felix is more like comparing apples to apples - with me and my BF, there was no OP to complicate matters. If you want her back, I'm a firm believer in Plan A. If you don't, Plan B's the way to go. (explained well in Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts page). But either way - don't let young couples with children make you feel your plans for the future have crashed on take-off... those are still your plans, and if it's just not meant to be with you and your GF you WILL love someone else in time. The plans for the future aren't gone forever.

Hey again, My GF was never specific about why she could not marry me. She said it was a "feeling in her bones." So, really I have no idea. That's what makes it all so frustrating. It also did not just pop up in the last months. Her and I had spoken about marriage and she always said she thought she could not marry me but did not know the reason. I always thought that when we finally lived in the same town she would come around. She was supposed to move here in Jan., which then turned into Feb., and then March 1st. About 2 weeks before she was set to move here is when she told the OP that she always wondered why they had not dated. From there everything is downhill. You know the story. I would love to stay in contact with her and try to win her back. But she is not something to be won. The problem with staying in contact is I already tried that route from Feb 14th to March 14th and all that did was drive her further away and disolve a lot of the feelings we had for one another. The only way I would want to be with her again was if she came back on her own free accord. Not b/c of somehting I did. Does that make sense to you?Another reason staying in contact would be tough is the distance. She lives in Orlando now and I am in Sarasota. We are 140 miles apart. She is going back to school in the summer and that will cause the distance to widen to 190 miles. I know that I will love again and that I will have kids. But at this point I am still thinking that she was the one that I wanted to do all those things with.

Felix18, Thanks for the kind words and prayers. I do hope that she comes back - with all my heart. But I know her and she is firm on her decision. Plus, she is stubborn and will want to give this breakup a try. It is hard for me to imagine life without her and it is tough, especially, on Friday's and Sunday's (we would always spend the weekends together). All of this would be so much easier if she told me that she did not love me anymore and left me for this OP. That is what I suspect happened but I do not know for sure. So, until she contacts me I will let those questions lie. Thanks again.

Hi, This message is for younglove. The reason I signed hopeful is that I had that in mind as a username but unfortunately by the time I registered it was already taken.Now as regards to the idea I suggested it was not mine but from a book I read. I know and aggree with you that it is not nice to play games but sometimes these tactics work. But then after all it is up to ericstm (or Tom) to decide what actions to seek and follow. I hope and pray for him that whatever the outcome he can make the best of it.Stubborn

I'm A Student in college and have had a long distance relationship for about a year now. Does a long distance relationship ever work? I feel perfectly happy in my relationship and I feel my g/f is to. Is it naive to believe that long distance relationships work? Can we still meet each other's emotional needs being so far apart? [This message has been edited by BA (edited April 11, 2000).]

Stubborn-Of course it's Tom's opinion what he does in his case - but since we're all here to learn, it can't hurt to discuss the merits of various approaches. While sometimes games might "work", what exactly is it they achieve? Not a relationship built on honesty and trust! Since I consider that the goal, in my humble opinion, games never work since they never achieve that type of relationship.BA-I'm a little confused as to why, if you've been in a long distance relationship for over a year, you're asking if they work. Is it working so far? Are you afraid there'll come a time when it will stop working? As for the naivety and emotional needs issues... that depends on your particular situation. How long were you together before the separation? How long will you be separated? What are your long-term plans? From what I've seen, long distance relationships have the best odds of success when two conditions are present: 1) the couple was well-established before the separation and 2) the separation is temporary and for a pre-defined point of time (for example, she's studying abroad for a semester, as opposed to you attend college in different states and neither intends to move after graduation). Shorter distances also help because they facilitate more frequent visits - the next state over instead of the opposite coast.Tom-How are you doing? Keeping busy? I hope all is well!

Hi BA, Yes, long distance relationships do work but are very difficult in the sense that if in relationships where distance is not involved you tend to take things more for granted whereas in long distance makes you appreciate things more.Also long distance relationships tend to be expensive VERY MUCH SO! I can tell you from my own experience. I am in North America and my fiance in Europe. Due to work circumstances I am the one who does most of the travelling (though he pays for half the trips) and I go there about 5 times a year (so you can Imagine).We see each other every day on Cameras via net meeting but still it is very hard.BUT we are making plans for marriage. Hopefully next year we will tie the knot but I have to finish off my degree before that.Though Long distance relationships are hard they are most rewarding as you do your utmost to make it work and the time spent away from each other helps us to think a great deal.I think such relationships give you a chance to take a good look at yourself and your partner and help you to become a good communicator.My final suggestion would be though, try to make your distances shorter as time passes believe me time does tend to take its toll on you.As for me I would not go back one little bit as I can tell you that regardless of the distance we both know we want to get married and form a family.If you are not serious about such a relationship it can drain you.take carestubborn

Hi younglove, As regards to your previous message I NEVER Implied in any way to use deceit for ericstm to get his GF back.What I meant was for him to make her come to her senses and realise what she is about to lose if she does pursue other men.There was also one other post which confirmed my opinion when she did not call BF and he felt he was going to lose her.I know what you mean when you say that you should make things clear up front especially in long distance relationships but what better way then to show your partner that you are valueable and that it would be crazy to end such a relationship.Helping out that person realise that is not being dishonest. Even Dr. Harley himself says it in his books. i.e. leave partner alone so that she/he does not have it both ways so that they come to their senses and realise the precious history and love they share with that special partner.Stubborn

Hi Stubborn-Maybe it's a matter of interpretation, but I consider this deceit:"make sure she notices you are happy (I know that right now you might say "yeah as if I can bear to look at her let alone show her I am happy") please try and try. Count the seconds if necessary make a picture in your head of what and how you will act but make sure she gets the message and then try to be nice and caring towards other girls in her prescence to show her what she is about to lose (do not flirt just be nice) then move back and wait do not succomb to calling her (lock your self in a room if necessary)."If someone was acting according to his true feelings, he wouldn't need to lock himself in a room to keep from acting, nor would he have to picture in his head how he would act in the ex-GF's presence. And to me, not acting according to true feelings is deceitful. I too am basing this on Harley concepts. One of the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage is the rule of honesty, discussed here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html</A> it's five components are discussed in detail in several of his books, including the Four Gifts of Love. I'm unhappy with the adversarial tone our exchange has begun to have. I didn't mean to criticize you or your ideas, you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, I only meant to present a different perspective. I'm sorry for any hurt feelings I've caused, it's hard to convey the intended tone electronically...

younglove, I do not know how to tell you this. I do not want to offend you or anything but... I have read many of your posts and you tend to get on people's nerves (as you are now with me and you did with one of the moderators in another forum).STOP IT ! OK ! ONCE and for all!Have you read any of Dr Harley's Books? yes or no?If you read any at all ok you will have (I am surely noticed !) that there are instances in his writing where poeple have to make an extra effort to to achieve something.Now I am not giving you any more chances to start with the usual pattern I have noticed in your following of threads! Either you act as a woman who is mature and wants to help people or CONTINUE YOUR HOLIER THAN THOU "ATTITUDE".Well you might have noticed my username is stubborn and I KNOW I cannot stand people with your " " attitude.SO Stop it act maturly becuase if you will continue acting this way I WILL NOT reply to any of your posts.HOPE YOU GET THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL .

Please, everybody, there are people who are hurting here! For some of us, this is the only place where we can find support and strength to face the difficulties in our lives. If you must debate about the issue as to who is right and who is wrong, I kindly ask that you bring it elsewhere. I THANK you!For BA - Long distance relationship will work if it is built with a strong foundation of trust. LDR is especially vulnerable to trust issues. Please keep that in mind and do everything in your power to keep the trust intact in your relationship! I wish you the very best with it. For me, it was by far the best relationship I ever had. Unfortunately, it's over now....

BA, LD relationships can be some of the strongest around b/c they are based deep in your feelings not anything physical (depending on how often you get to see the other person). For me the LD relationship I had was the most rewarding I ever had. At the same time it was also the hardest i have ever had. For me I was only able to speak with my GF about once ever month or so and only got to see her about once every 5 months. I never had doubts about our future and assumed that if we made it through the two years she was in the Peace Corps that there was nothing that could tear us apart. The problem is she started to doubt her love for me over those two years. About 2 months ago she destroyed our relationship by not being truthful with me. Like Demeter said LD relationships are set deeply in trust. When that trust is compromised the relationship is doomed b/c one partner is left with all the doubts and feelings of betrayal. I have not yet recovered from that and the things that were said to me by my GF still haunt me like they happened yesterday. The only thing I can tell you is that you need to be completly honest with yourself and with your partner. Hope this helps.Best of luck!

Demeter I aggree with you 100%. I never meant to fight with anyone. My aim was and still is to give some advice or prayers to people who need it.Unfortunately others see it as a fertile battle ground for who is right and wrong which is really ugly considering that here we are all trying to give some help to each other.Personally I feel I had to do what I did because I saw a pattern coming that I wanted to stop right away.I hope that in the future such things will not repeat themselves.As for me I have made a decision to answer ONLY to people who are serious about helping and not all out for a good tug of war with who's right or wrong.Thanks for your commentStubborn

BA One thing which I have found really helpful in my LD relationship besides honesty and trust is have a lot of optimism and imagination.I know that it is hard in a long distance relationship to keep a good flow in the Love Bank but personally i have found that satisfying needs of communication and things of mutual interest to both partners like hobbies etc can be of great help.Try to go through Dr. Harley's articles and see how you can adapt the his needs her needs for your LD relationship.Though you will not have the opportunity to be with your GF in person that way you will make her feel good about herself and the special relationship you share.With me and my fiance it is giving him the opportunity to talk when he really opens up and considering he is the silent quiet type that is a real boost for both of us!Hope to hear from you soonSutbborn

younglove- Of coarse I think LDR work if I didn't my g/f and I would not be together. I guess the reason why I wrote is for feedback or encouragement. Here's the story. We went to school togeter, and during my senior year we started courting. Her father got tired of his job and decided to move back to his home state (MN) which is across the contry from where I am(TX). She's graduating early from High school and is planning on going to college in MN for the first year. We don't know if we are going to be able to go to college togeter later. So the maximum time will be apart is like four years. I see her every summer and Christmas and spring break. I call her once a week and e-mail her everyday. I love her and I don't mind waiting for her. I am completly honest with her. I wonder if I'm to honest. When I first came to college last semester. I was completly lost. I came from a small private school and now I was at a big state college. Then I met a great friend, who showed me around college. She preaty much looked out for me for awhile. She was someone I was accountable to I guess. Anyway I told my g/f about my friend and she got jealous. Which is understandable I guess. The thought of being with another woman just turns my stomach. I don't want to be with anyone but my g/f. Is there anything I can do to let her know I don't want to be with anyone but her and help her not feel jealous. Am I being unfaithful, by having a good friend in college? thank you all for all the encouragement.! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by BA (edited April 12, 2000).]

BA I understand you completely. One thing which your girlfriend may feel about this friend is that since you are spending time with her you might ending up being taken away from her and that is understandable.I hope you told your girlfriend that your intentions are serious with her and that you will make it a point to be 100% honest with her.Now with regards to the other person that she has helped you so much is to make it clear with this friend that you are happy with your girlfriend and have a commitment towards her when it comes to faithfulness.If people do not have friends we would be isolated in a glass bottle and be just us and our partners.But there is social life still regardless of the situations.I can tell you from my experience my boyfriend and I still have friends and go out but we know we are both faithful because we love each other and that at this point we cannot be watchdogs to each other either we are faithful or not.So if when you talk to your girlfriend you show her and tell her how important she is to you how you miss her and how much she means to you that will make all the difference.Having a friend does not mean cheating in the future.Me and my boyfriend do have friends of the opposite sex just that both of us have made it clear to them that only him and me are in an exclusive relationship no matter what.One thing try not to be too much of a confidante to this friend and vice versa ....That is where trouble starts off remember she or you would be meeting one of your needs and your/her love bank would start receiving deposits....That is what you should watch.Stubborn

BA-I don't think you can ever be too honest with your girlfriend. It's a good thing that you told her about your friend. I can guarantee you that if you didn't and she later finds out about it, the situation will be much worse. I know because I was once in your girlfriend's shoes! My philosophy has always been, "people only hide what shameful things they can't share with others." In my mind the contrary is also true: when you try to hide it, it must be something that's shameful!Stubborn had a lot of good advice in her last post. One of the ones I want to stress is don't share too much with your other female friend. It will only lead you to places you will later regret going! Also, be mentally prepared to react if situation should ever arise where you will be tempted to cheat on your girlfriend. Go through all of the possible scenarios in your head and come up with strategies on how you are going to handle every single one of them in the most appropriate way you know how. I think a lot of times, we do the wrong things because we aren't mentally prepared to deal with it in a manner that's more appropriate. I know that's certainly the case with my exBF. Last but not least, involve your girlfriend in a lot of the things you do. I don't mean physically. Rather, get her opinions on issues that affect you. You don't necessarily have to take her advice, but by telling her things that bother you, things you plan to do, things you don't know how to do or deal with, etc. she will see that you are serious about your relationship with her because you at least consult with her. Best of luck![This message has been edited by demeter (edited April 13, 2000).]

BA Here is my last post for today or else I will end up stuck to my pc too much time. One thing which I found really funny and that helps me and my boyfriend to come closer in an unusual way is to send things to each other.This is funny (not romantic) but believe me things like this help.Instead of sending the usual things for valentines or romantic things what me and my boyfriend do is to send unusual things....One time he was complaining of dandruff and a certain brand we have here is not for sale in Europe so I sent him a bottle in a padded envelope with the words "wash your hair well!" Imagine the people at the post office and the postman when he delivered!As for me on valentines I got (this is funny!!) three kilos worth of good cheese that will last me until the time we meet again!(Know why? It is the cheese I like to eat most when I go to visit him!!)You should have seen my face and the postman here when I opened it!I know maybe as I said these are far from romantic ideas BUT they definetly brought us together!These are memories that really last believe me and if you cannot make yourself available in person send each oter things you know will remind you of each other and moments you share. (maybe not cheese or shampoo) But...I leave that to your humor and imagination.....Nite NiteStubborn

THIS IS FOR STUBBORN-I am incredibly shocked and hurt by your attack on me. But mostly I am confused. I have never been insulted by anyone on this thread before and I do not know why it is occurring now. Why are you speaking for other people? You talk in the plural of me "getting on other peoples' nerves". Since I have seen no posts where I have been the topic of discussion, I'm not sure how you know how others feel about me. Also, I have never been corrected by a Moderator, or had any contact with a Moderator at all. I did post on a thread in which another user was corrected by a Moderator, but it was clear that comment was not directed at me.I have read every single one of Dr. Harley's books, with the exception of Surviving an Affair because that is not a problem my relationship has faced yet and I'm hoping to keep it that way by having read the others. I have also read all of the Basic Concepts pages on the non-forum part of the website.You've asked me to "STOP IT ! OK ! ONCE and for all!" but that's not possible for me to do, since I don't know what the "it" is that you speak of. In over four months as a forum member, I have only been on two posts in which there was any animosity at all (not counting this one). The one I mentioned before, in which the animosity came not from me but someone else, who was then corrected by the moderator, and one on the EM board - Emmiebear's thread - and as far as I know, because she has posted to threads of mine since and been very helpful, she bears me no ill will. In her thread there wasn't even "animosity" per se, the thread was about religious disagreements (or became about it eventually) and I did not become involved in a debate about religion until she indicated she would welcome such a debate - in fact she invited it!If you really think I feel "holier than thou" you may not have read all of my posts! I think it's pretty clear I'm here to learn, that's why we all came to the MB doorstep, right? So, you're right that I'm not really here to help, only because there are so many problems here I'm not qualified even to give advice on having never experienced them myself. But when opinions are requested, I give mine, same as you. I suspect you think I have this type of attitude because it's clear in my posts that I'm Christian. I honestly don't know where else you're getting this from. Right now, the threat of you not replying to any of my posts if I don't comply to what you want me to be isn't really a negative in my point of view, because I feel totally attacked! This has come out of left field. As I said before, in more than four months no one, member or moderator, has ever chastized me, much less to this degree. Is it possible my handle is similar to someone else's?I'd also like to point out that, if I really had the attitude you describe, I wouldn't have extended an olive branch when I thought things were getting a little hairy!

Hi Younglove,I wanted to respond to you here as well as on the other thread.Everyone is here for different reasons. I find that your reasons are admirable and the insight you offer is very worthwhile and appreciated.May I suggest that for those who are to mule headed to see the compassion and appreciate the thought that you put into your replies simply avoid them.This is a forum based on Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts for ensureing a life time of romantic love with your partner. I have read many of your posts and see nothing in the way of disrespectful comments - and certainly nothing that offends.There are many books out there. And many of them offer solutions that would actually have the opposite effect that you desire. Reading a book and seeing a solution does not make it a good one necessarily.The Harley methods are tried, tested and true. It can be scary sometimes the suggestions that are offered that are so much "outside" of these methods. This forum was meant to work in compliment with his methods - something I see you offering most of the time.Cheers, LisaP.S. I think that Stubborn has you mixed up with someone else regarding the moderator comment. If I am wrong, I appologize. I have NEVER seen anything you have offered that would "get on my nerves". I think that this may happen if people do not understand your (MB related) perspective. In light of the intentions of this forum, I respectfully suggest that you keep in mind the thinking process behind that hurtful comment.

Younglove, I read your post regarding my response and the way you feel attacked.I responded that way because I did not want you to start bickering on who is right and wrong, especially you quoting back things I wrote. (I know what I wrote and there was no need to be hammered things back). I told you twice that in my response to Ericstm that I did not mean deceit, but you kept on pushing.The reason why I told you to stop was because I saw your insistence regardless of my responses. That way the whole point of the forum was being sidetracked (i.e. to give help support and advice to those who need it). Instead it was turning into a parliament debate.If people in a forum do not agree that is fine, but to turn people's postings into "whatever you say shall be used against you" is a bit too much, and that is exactly the way I felt when you began quoting things back at me I had written.Even demeter realised there was animosity in the air. He/she in fact said that if people wanted to start arguing could take it somewhere else.Now if you want to continue responding in a proper way that is fine by me. I rest my case.

Stuborn,I know that you don't like being quoted back to. Please be assured that I'm only doing so in an effort to be clear as to what I'm responding to. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by stubborn: Personally I feel I had to do what I did because I saw a pattern coming that I wanted to stop right away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You need to realize that there are appropriate ways to handle people who annoy you on these boards. The first is to ignore them. The second is to contact the topic's moderator if you think real harm is being done. (which is what I have done with regards to your attack of Younglove) Dialogue is one thing, attacking the poster is rarely profitable. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by stubborn: I hope that in the future such things will not repeat themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I hope you were refering to your outburst. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by stubborn: As for me I have made a decision to answer ONLY to people who are serious about helping and not all out for a good tug of war with who's right or wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sound advice. I hope you follow through on this!Lostsoul....is that you??[This message has been edited by Mudder (edited April 13, 2000).]

Mudder, Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. I hope others will learn from it too. Stubborn

Stubborn-Why is it that you think, if I'm quoting your posts, that it must be to harm you? Perhaps I have a different idea of the purpose of quoting - I spend most of my time on the EN board and there, it seems there are more posts with quotes than without. This is not to spite or "get" the poster! I quoted you so that it would be clear to whom, and to which portion of your post, I was responding. I quoted for no other reason than clarity.As for you not wanting me to start bickering about right and wrong, if you reread my post immediately before your attack it should be crystal clear my intent was to not bicker. I stated explicitly that I feel you are entitled and welcome to share your opinions, but I ask that the same courtesy be extended to me. However, just because I respect your right to your opinions does not mean I have to agree with them. Yes, you posted twice that you didn't think your suggestion involved deceit, so I pointed out twice that I think it does. Why is it "wrong" for me to clarify my position but not "wrong" for you to do the same? Both of us stuck to our guns regarding what we believe... which by itself is a good thing. However, I did my best to make it clear I respected your opinion anyway, and, well, I think you also made clear what you think of my opinion, but it was not done respectfully. I also disagree with you that focusing on the issues underlying the thread (i.e. trust and deceit in dealing with ex's) is somehow sidetracking the forum. If all we could ever do was discuss specific situations, and not extrapolate from them, of what use to the rest of us would this board be? I believe the whole point is to read about specific situations, learn what that says about relationships as a whole, and apply it in our own lives. That's not parliamentary debate - it's helping each other to learn. (if you are lostsoul, and I suspect you are, please note there is a significant difference between learning from situations which apply to your own relationships and inventing hypothetical situations which are not currently relevant to you at all).I had no idea you were upset by others quoting you, as I indicated there are parts of the forum where this is done regularly and I had no way of knowing it would offend you. I would have greatly preferred it if you simply informed me of your preference not to be quoted. As for Demeter's comments, I would like to point out that those were made AFTER your attack on me, and I wholeheartedly agree that at that point there was animosity in the air! I also agree with Demeter that there's no need to argue on the forum - but if you agreed as well, why post such a vicious diatribe? Surely not in the spirit of not arguing!You end your post by saying it's okay with you if I respond from now on as long as I do it in a "proper way". (in quotes not to spite but to indicate that I feel this is a misrepresentation of my posts). I don't feel I have ever posted anything in an improper way and thus won't change the way I post. Also, because I have reason to believe the community as a whole does not agree with you that I have been improper, I will not leave the forum. I find many of the people here to be incredibly warm and helpful, and hope that occasionally I will have some insight which will prove useful to others - not that all will agree with it, but that most will respect my right to believe it and post it.

Younglove, No I am not lostsoul. I have seen postings from this person in the past but am not him/her.Now I understand why Mudder asked if it was lost soul.I never intended for you to leave the post and I think with regards to you quoting now I understand why you did that. That is what I took for attack.Now that you have explained yourself I understand and will not ask you to change the way you reply to postings.I guess here I owe you an apology and will give it to you wholeheartedly.

Mudder!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lostsoul....is that you??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tsk tsk tsk... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Do you remember that Lostsoul originally showed up here as "whoami"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by stubborn to Younglove:I guess here I owe you an apology and will give it to you wholeheartedly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Based on these words I'm convinced this could in no way be my buddy Lostsoul.I feel warm all over now that we are all friends again. Don't you?

Mudder Who is Lostsoul anyway? Can you fill me in please?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by stubborn: Mudder Who is Lostsoul anyway? Can you fill me in please?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you go to this link you will see my buddy in his full glory. Actually now I'm a little embarassed that I thought you might be him. Please don't hold it a gainst me! <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum4/HTML/000036.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum4/HTML/000036.html</A>

Younglove, Well, my worst nightmare came true on Wednesday night. My GF called and confirmed that she was already seeing this OP. She say she left me b/c she could not see herself marrying me but I cannot believe that. She says she still loves me but I cannot believe that either. If that were the case then she would be single now or we would still be togehter. Anyhow, at least now I know for sure and there is no more doubt as to whether or not there will be a reconciliation. Hope you reply to this and tell me what you think.

Tom,I am sorry I am not Younglove, but I would like to add that I don't think your GF is lying about her love for you. Remember that emotion is not a light switch - you can't just turn it on and off as you wish. Otherwise, we won't be here suffering from the way we feel! Similarly, your GF couldn't possibly fall out of love with you so quickly (unless she has been for a while already). She may just be very confused about what and how she feels. I think if you two were married, this will be considered an affair. From reading the many posts here, it is clear to me that some people fell into the trap not because they fell out of love with their spouse but because they were confused! In my opinion, if you really want to move on from this, try not to let what she says bother you. It's hard, I know. I am in the same boat as you. But try anyuway....nothing good in life every comes easy! Best of luck!

It's ok that you are not younglove. The reason I wrote to her is b/c she has written from the very beginning and sort of knows the whold story. It is true that nothing good in life ever comes easily. You are also correct in thinking that if we were married this would be an affair. I think that b/c this thing with the OP went on while we were still together (for about 4 weeks). I found out about it b/c I had the password to her e-mail account and read what they were writing to each other. My punishment for that is just knowing what was written. It is 10X worse than anything that could be done to me and still haunts me. At this point I thik it is too late to go back. So many things have been said on both sides that I would not even know where to begin rebuilding our relationship and the trust that we once had for each ohter. I betrayed her trust be reading her emails and she betrayed my trust by having an emotional affair witht his OP that has now turned into dating. What happened in your relationship? I am curious to knon and might have some insights.Thanks,Tom

Hi folks,Just checking in again.....I hope the animosity has been cleared from the air and we can all try to communicate as well and as "friendily" as the medium allows - remember - it's hard to convey emotions easily on a forum from hundreds or thousands of miles away.Also remember to think twice before hitting that "Submit Reply" button - it's easy to say things in the heat of the moment, and we all need as meny friends as possible!It is possible to go back and edit old posts if we inadvertantly over-reacted to something - that with a kind word to someone who may have taken offense, or been chided hastily will mend a lot of hurt.Ericstm is hurting out there - along with a lot of us - let's try to keep in mind that "side" arguments do not help hurting people out.Go in peace...------------------ Valiant, Moderator Marriage Builders Forum

stubborn - it takes a big person to offer an apology, so I was wrong about you, and for that I am the one who is sorry. Your apology is accepted, no hard feelings.ericstm-(((((((tom)))))))I'm so sorry to hear about last night. Right now, I know, it hurts terribly, but it will get better! Demeter has a good point - emotions aren't like light switches. Have you read Give and Take? I think that's where the Harleymeister talks about there being two different kinds of love. The Love Bank concept relates to all kinds of feelings about all kinds of people, but romantic love is sort of a threshold above which Love is felt. Below that threshold, there's caring love, but no Love. So, if your ex-GF's love bank is below that threshold, she does feel something for you, but it's caring love instead of romantic love. If you and she gave it another chance, and you had the opportunity to build up her love bank beyond the threshold, she would feel romantic love for you again - as you would for her if she got your love bank balance above that threshold. One of the best things about this website, for me, has been it's demystification of love as this ephemeral, often fleeting feeling. It helps to think of it in less abstract terms.But... she did have an EA. If it's any consolation, the success rate of relationships that start as EA's or PA's is even more dismal than for that of "regular" relationships. In a marriage, I think there is no point of no return because of the vow always to return - but without those vows to force a couple to keep trying, I agree, there is a point after which there is no going back, and... I agree that the line is behind you.Take this as a source of strength, my friend! Make May the Month of Tom. (sounds cheesy, but if you think it in your head and don't tell anyone, it actually helps...) Pick four things you've always wanted to do and do one each week. Or, pick two goals you want to reach and go for them! Keep posting and reading and when you find someone else special, you'll be able to build something really lasting.

Tom,You can find my story at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000066.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000066.html</A> Here is the follow up to that (you may want to read the other thread before reading the following):We decided to get back together after he visited me over the Valentine's weekend. Here is the problem: After being cheated on twice, I just couldn't trust him anymore. I wanted to, but I simply couldn't. Well, I snooped behind his back and later confronted him with some minor issues. I basically wanted to know why some of his female friends did not know that he was dating me very seriously. He never answered my question but instead accused me of snooping behind his back. I admitted to him that yes, I did it, but only because I couldn't trust his words. He thought I went too far, so he broke up with me....there's more to that story, but I can't post it all. I just want you to keep in mind that you are reading my side of the story. Naturally, you are not getting the whole picture this way. So please, when you reply to the post, don't write any judgemental statements about him based on what I had said. It simply won't be fair. Thanks.

Tom,Here is something that has helped me this past week to cope with things. I am SOOOO MUCH happier now than I ever had been since the breakup. I became a different person - literally! I went out and did many things I have never considered doing by myself. As the result of that, I met a lot of people and am now hooked up with a whole bunch of people for a lot of activities for the months to come. I even went as far as dressing a little differently too. I must admit it was really scary to take that first step. In fact, I almost chickened out of my original plan! But, I stucked with it, and now it's paying dividend! Hurray for me. I haven't shed any tears in a week, and I have been smiling more and more everyday! Less of my life reminds me of him now! Even those things that do remind me of him, the reminders are not as painful anymore! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Demeter, I just wanted to say sorry for not writing back sooner. I sit infront of a computer screen all week so I try to avoid it on the weekends. That being said, here is what I think about your situaion. You are more forgiving than I am or would have been. But at the same time I can understand why you gave him so many chances. When you have been with a person for so long and really feel they are the right individual for you it is hard to just walk away after all the history that has been shared - even if that is the best thing to do. I know I should have walked away sooner and by staying I hurt myself much more than if I had just left. As far as his cheating goes. I cannot really say what type of behavioral changes you could look for that would let you know he was serious this time. I myself have never been one to stray even when my ex-GF and I were separated for over 2 yrs. We were only able to see each other once every 6 months or so and able to speak on the phone about once a month. So, I think his excuse that he needed companionship and that you were not able to meet his needs b/c you were not there next to him is weak. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!! It sounds like you thought that he was the right guy for you but it does not sound like he had those same feelings for you. I'm sure that he loved you deeply. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh - I don't mean it to be. I am in the same boat as you and have still not really been able to admit to myself that my ex-GF didn't love me as much as I loved her. I have, however, come to terms with the fact the at we are not right for each other (for now anyway). The person that you end up spending the rest of your life with should have eyes only for you. Infidelity is a terrible thing and causes so much hurt. The worst thing about it though is the loss of trust between people. Once the trust is gone things are said and done that cause the situation to worsen. I lost trust in my ex and that caused me to read her emails thereby betraying her trust in me. It caused you to "snoop." I am not one to say if that was right or wrong we both did what we felt like was the right thing to do at the time. But do you see what I am saying. Once the trust is gone it is so much harder to rebuild a relationship. It sounds as if you are doing much better from your last post and for that I am glad. I have started to head out with friends myself again and I also think less of her. I have decided that I do not want any contact with her now and in the future. I simply cannot heal with her there. I do not know what kind of situation you and your BF have come up with but I wish you the best. Remember, he is the the one that lost.

Tom,He never made up any excuses as to why he cheated. In fact, he admitted that it was completely his fault that he let things happened. The part where I mentioned about companionship is actually what I thought of the situation. I don't think it's either of our faults that we were not able to be live near each other. But thanks for your sympathy.As for his feelings about whether I am the one for him or not, I am started to feel that that's probably the cause of our problems. I don't think he lied about his feelings for me. I know he loved me dearly, and he probably genuinely thought that I was the one with whom he wants to spend the rest of his life. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done the many special things he did for me. The key is, he thought I was the one but then realized I probably wasn't the one....That's why I think he doesn't want to work things out. It's not worth it, in his mind (that's what I think).Well, the last I heard, he went out with his volleyball buddy (female) to some fair. I guess he is moving on with his life, and for that I am truly happy for him. Truth of the matter is, I still care about him. Knowing that he is happy makes me happy too!Oh yes, there's no doubt in my mind that this breakup is his lost. That's what helps me cope for the most part. We still keep in touch. In fact, he called me last night, and I got an email from him today as well. I don't mind being friends. I think we are better off as friends anyway! I notice I am not upset or sad about the breakup anymore. I think I have finally come to term with the situation. Believing that this is his lost is the best remedy I have found for myself!Take care and best of luck with everything in your life!

Younglove, Don't really know why I am writing. Maybe b/c of the last conversation my ex and I had. I guess it was last wednesday. It was the day she told me she was now seeing the OP. I was pretty upset and could not understand how she could hop out of our relationship into the other so fast. I basically told her flat out to never call/write/email ever again. Did I over-react? I feel good about the decision b/c she really hurt me and all I wanted to do to her was cause her some of the pain she had made me feel. Before, when we would argue about the situation I would sometimes say things in haste and later feel guilty and then apologize. I am not feeling that guilt now. And am I certainly not inclined to apologize for what I said. I really still feel like I mean what I said. However, I still think about her all the time. Mostly about how things ended between us and why. There are no real answers and that makes it quiet frustrating. I think she left me for the OP. She says she left me b/c she could not marry me. But there is no reason why she could not marry me - just a feeling. She has told her best friend that we would end up marrying but also said she was not ready yet. I am thinking since she has only dated me and one other person seriously maybe she thinks that you need to date more to figure out what you want out of a person. I don't agree with that school of thought.

Hi Tom! I'm glad you posted. It's always nice to hear from you and find out how things are with you. Sometimes the best thing about the forum is it lets people just vent without committing any Love Busters!For what it's worth, my opinion is that you did not over-react by telling your ex-GF never to contact you again. It's how you felt at the time, it's how you've continued to feel (at least for a while) and have "felt good" about, and, it may be the healthiest thing to do... from what I've seen, it's very difficult at best to salvage any meaningful type of friendship from a long-term relationship, especially if it ends by the appearance of an OP. However... if wanting to hurt her was the only reason you told her that, while that may not necessarily make it an overreaction it really isn't the best reason to cut all ties. It's just that, while you may never be "good" friends again, you don't have to cut her out of your life completely unless that's explicitly what she or you want, and if you do it for revenge it's possible you might lose out on a good "acquaintance-ship" (like a friendship but less deep).If it doesn't make you feel guilty, you don't want to apologize, and you still mean it... I would try to put thoughts of "should I have said it" out of your mind. Second-guessing yourself will only make the healing process slower and harder. As adults both you and your GF know that people change their minds, and who knows? Maybe a year or two from now you or she will send the other a birthday card. It's not as though you cast the "no contact ever again" statement in stone.I agree with you that the "need to date a whole bunch of people before I know who I want to marry" argument has serious flaws. Perhaps that's why she started seeing the OM, then again, perhaps there's a different reason entirely. It's only natural to still think about her all the time. I think it was Demeter who said emotions aren't like light switches (though sometimes, wouldn't it be easier if they were?) Especially when the explanation of "why/how/when did this happen?" is so unsatisfactory... people are (or try to be) rational creatures. We want things to make sense, and have an easier time accepting things when they do - consider the difference in mourning the death of a 90-year-old man versus that of a 4-year-old-girl. Both make us sad, but one doesn't fit into our rational scheme. We wish it "made sense".It's hard to do when everything in both head and heart is on spin cycle... but it might help things make sense if you can separate what you think about the breakup to how you feel (and felt) about your ex-GF. What I mean is, it's normal to have mixed feelings about her - from anger and sadness to love. Her announcement last week that she'd begun dating the OP didn't change the fact that when you woke up that morning, you loved her. Emotions can't be shut off instantly. But the way you feel about her and the way you feel about the breakup don't make ending contact with her a bad thing. Even if you and she had agreed to keep in touch, these residual feelings would remain. They don't have to dictate your actions if you don't want them to, and in time they'll heal.I'd better get to bed... I hope some of this helps!

Younglove, I guess it has been about a week since I last posted. I am doing better with every day that goes by. Some are worse than others but I am not falling into deep depression and fits of anger anymore. I have been sort of ho-hum about everything lately though. My ex is still the last person I think about when I close my eyes to sleep and the first person on my mind when I wake. During the day I have so many happy memories of her and I that just pop into me head continuously. It is hard to think of her in those happy ways knowing what we are to each other now and the feelings I have about how she ended the relationship. Those memories are painful for me. Does that ever get better? I am still hoping that, one day, she will call or just show up and ask if we can start over. My love for her is still there and it still runs deep.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ericstm: Younglove, I guess it has been about a week since I last posted. I am doing better with every day that goes by.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's great, Tom! It's good to hear from you. I know at times the whole process of healing seems so painfully slow, but I think you're on the right track. It's not a continuous linear improvement - and that's okay. A few steps forward, several back, and in time you'll find you're moving forward faster than you'd thought possible.I'm a little surprised, but really glad, to hear that many of the memories of your ex that come to mind are happy. That's a good sign! It means you've moved past the first bout of denial/anger/depression. I stayed there for months, so I'm really proud of you because I know how hard it is to get out of that stage! Yes, it hurts to remember those happy times now that they're over, but it does get easier - much easier - and someday, those memories will bring only a smile, and the pain too will have faded to a memory. You can't erase the love you felt for her, and you don't have to. It's good to recognize that you shared something special and important - no need to trivialize that, and it's probably "healthier" not to. I think hoping for reconciliation is a big part of that. But look at it this way - even if you and she were to reconcile one day, wouldn't there be certain things you'd need from her to trust her again? Wouldn't, at a minimum, she have to say it was a mistake to see the OM? Maybe, in time, that's how she'll feel, but right now, she doesn't, so reconciliation wouldn't work right now. Memories are a funny thing. I think the fact that all these memories pop into your head - and that you think of her first thing in the morning and last thing at night - is a way of coping with and accepting the loss. Bear with me here, hopefully this will be coherent: my parents divorced when I was 12, and my dad died when I was 17. From 12 to 17, I saw him a few times a year. The rest of the year, he just wasn't a very big part of my life, and I didn't think about him much. But then, when he died, I thought about him all the time. It's not that I missed him exactly, because I was used to not seeing him for fairly long periods of time, but I missed him because I knew that I couldn't call him even if I wanted to. I missed knowing he was there. I went through something similar when my BF and I separated. We talked pretty frequently - once or twice a week most weeks - and after only a few hours of hanging up/going home/him leaving, I missed him already, but when we were together I didn't miss him hours after he'd left. The difference was, in my mind, I knew he wasn't "there" in the same way he'd been when we were together. It's a mental acceptance of the loss of this person's role, that not only aren't they there now but they won't be again. Does that make any sense?It sounds to me like that might be why you think of your ex-GF so much. It will get better! Your life will change and move forward too - and soon the role that she played will grow smaller and smaller - but that doesn't mean her place in your life (historically speaking) has to change. That thought helped me too - to realize that although some things had been lost, the love wasn't gone completely, those memories were mine forever and that relationship would always be an important part of my life.I'm glad to hear things are a little bit better. Don't be discouraged by the slips backward, you're doing very well!Kerry

Kerry, Today has been a tough day. I am having so much anger in me. I try to stay busy working out, running but I always come back to the same picture. Her and him together. It sends me into a pit of rage. I am not an angry person and it scares me to have these feelings. I was just trying to get to sleep here and I go the same feelings of anger again. I tried to push them down and it worked. Problem is it brought all this pain and deep sorrow out. It choked up my chest and I could feel to running out into my fingertips. I feel like I am sliding backward and there is nothing I can do. I feel like calling her but at he same time I don’t want to. All that would lead to right now is an argument. If she called me it might be different. I wonder if she has nights like these. I wonder if she sometimes wakes up in the middle of the night reaching for me? I still sleep on just the one side of my bed – strange huh?

Hi Tom-I'm sorry it was a whole week before I replied! I'm graduating from college on the 20th, and right now am a little swamped with papers and exams.Don't be afraid of being angry. Often, our society encourages people - men especially - to be unemotional. Calmness and stoicism are equated with power. Think of the reaction to Jackie O's behavior when JFK was shot. She remained poker faced at his funeral, never shed a tear in public, and was praised and admired for her strength! When surely she had good reason to cry, and had she done so, wouldn't have been called weak...I've believed this for a while - it seems to me there are primary emotions, which are felt for their own sake, and there are secondary emotions, which are felt as the result of first experiencing some other emotion. In my mind, sadness is a primary emotion. Something bad happens, we get sad, there's no middle man. I think anger is different - I think it's a secondary emotion. At the root of anger is usually something else. So, if you told me I was a loser, I would be hurt, and then I would be mad at you for hurting me. So, I didn't feel the anger alone, it was the result of being hurt. Maybe this is why you feel so angry toward your ex-GF?I'm sure she does have nights like the one you had when you posted - she probably still sleeps on "her" side of the bed too. I know it seems like it's easier for her, like she's in "control", and maybe because she knows the reasons for the break-up she does have a little easier time coping. But love is love - and unless her heart is an icicle she too will have to adjust to the gap in her life. How are you doing now? How have things been this week?

Hey Kerry, Last week went by quickly. I went to visit 2 of my brothers in CT. I met some old girlfriends that made dealing with my situation a little easier. It was good speaking with them. It was also very nice to see my brothers, one of which, I had not seen since January. Basically, we hung out together and had a lot of laughs and cocktails. But now I am back at home and am getting back into my routine. It's funny, when I am away from my home with friends and family I tend not think/dwell on what happened between my ex and I. But when I am back at my place all that baggage comes back. Maybe that is b/c we shared many memories in my apt. I guess I cannot just forget all that in 2 months - it will take time. Yesterday I actually thought about moving into a new place at the end of this lease. Does that seem a little drastic?

Hi Tom!Glad to hear you had a good time in CT. You know, I swear I'm not making this up - when I read the first sentence about "when I'm away I tend not to think/dwell" and I thought maybe moving would help make a fresh start. So when I got down to the part about "Yesterday I actually thought about moving into a new place at the end of this lease" I think it's a very good idea! No, it's not too drastic. You were together 4 years - that's longer than some marriages! And a change of surroundings would help you make your place yours again. But, it is a big decision. (not to mention a lot of work) When is your lease up? (i.e. how long do you have to think about it?) Would it make you sadder to actually leave the place where those memories were made?

Hey Kerry,The thing about moving is that I really hate doing it. Plus I live on the 3rd floor so it becomes even more of a pain. I have until the end of this month to decide. My ex and I have only 7 months of memories in my current place since she did not come back from her stint in the Peace Corps until Aug when I moved into this place to start my new job. I think the reason I dwell on our situation more when I am here has to do with the fact that I always alone in my apt. When I am with people I tend not to think about her. I started playing in a softball league yesterday and did not think of her once while I played which is strange b/c she loved to play - was always getting teams together. The problem is when I am alone. I do not think that I could deal with a roommate again though. You know what runs through my mind so many times I can't even begin to tell you. I keep repeating this question over and over to myself. "How can someone ask you to wait 2 years for her if she does not want to get married or make the effort to try and work things out by moving to the same city?" It's not like she had a lot of things on her plate. She could have gone back to school in the fall or she could have moved down here much earlier. It seems to me that she has been running from a serious commitment to me from the very beginning. I always thought in terms of us, always was the one to say it's alright, always the one to compromise. With her it was always about what she wanted to do at this instant. Looking back on that the last couple of months I have grown pretty disapointed with our relationship. Yesterday I deleted all e-mail addresses of her family (sisters) and friends. I feel the need to make a complete break. At the same time I will miss chatting with some of them. I just felt the need to start over from scratch yesterday. Don't know if I will feel like that next week but now it is to late anyway.How did/are your finals coming alone? Are you finished yet? If you are congratulations!

Hi Tom,Sorry it's been a while - finals went well, and I got my degree last weekend! Then this week I moved and have yet to finish unpacking. But it was definitely time for a break.I think you have some really good insights into your relationship. It sounds like the initial shock/pain/disbelief has started to fade a little and now you're able to sit back and look at the relationship a little more objectively and figure out what went wrong. GOOD FOR YOU! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

That's the only way to avoid making the same mistakes in the future. I'm glad to hear you started playing in a softball league and that it's been a good experience despite its reminders of your ex-GF's love of softball. I'm as perplexed as you are why she'd want you to wait two years while she was in the Peace Corps if she didn't see you in her future. But, two years is a long time, and though I've never directly known anyone who's been in the PC, I've heard it can be a life-changing experience. Maybe when she joined and asked you to wait, she was thinking of marriage, and something changed - or she changed - while she was away. It's very hard to maintain long-distance relationships, how long was she back from the PC before you and she broke up? Maybe after being separated for so long her Love Bank balance was low, or maybe she felt she'd experienced so much and changed so much that she felt she didn't know you anymore, or that you didn't know her "new" self. As sadistic as this may sound, I think it's good that now, reassessing things, you're disappointed with the relationship you and she had. Since it's ended, it must've had weaknesses, wouldn't it be sad if you had to look back now and still thought everything was perfect? Deleting her family's email addresses - way to go! Onward and upward, my friend.

Hey Kerry,How are things going? How is life after school? I know when I graduated the first time I was like; “wow I have been doing this for my whole life, what now?” I hope that things are going well for you.Well, I guess its been a while since I last wrote. Things have been moving along smoothly for me at work and the home front. I have been extremely busy with work and my social life (softball, basketball, etc..). Basically, I have kept myself pretty busy. My ex rarely crosses my mind these days. Here is the reason I am writing. The other day (Sunday night) I was online and my ex’s sister was online as well. We got to chatting – not about her sister I but just about stuff that was going on in her family. You know – regular stuff. I realized that I missed that. They had become my family away from home since my family is all spread out over the US and Europe. I can easily say that I saw then 100% more than my actual family over the years that my ex and I were together. It felt good hearing all the news. I guess the dilemma is whether or not I should be speaking with her sister? Is it appropriate? She is really the only one that has made a concerted effort to speak with me every now and then and has been genuinely nice to me throughout the whole ugly process when the rest of her family basically turned their collective backs on me. Should I stay in touch with her or not is the question I am battling these days.

Hi Tom!Things are going pretty good, thanks. I'm not too sure about "life after school" though, it'll be a while... I'm starting medical school this fall. I'm glad to hear that life is smoothing out for you. It's good you're keeping busy, and it sounds like you're happy; congratulations!As for the question about staying in touch with her ex's sister, in my opinon that depends on who is contacting whom. If you typically initiate contact with the sister, then maybe backing off a bit would be good. On the other hand, if she's the one who usually contacts you, you might want to consider the possibility that her sister has sent her on some sort of reconaissance mission. But, if it's about 50/50 as to which of you usually contacts the other, then I really don't see a problem with it. Especially since you mentioned you and the sister don't talk about your ex, I think it's harmless. Speaking of family, mine will be here soon for brunch and I'd better go... stay in touch!Kerry

Hey Kerry,Just writing to say hi and relay some good news here. I went to visit a friend of mine over the 4th of July weekend and ended up meeting someone. We had a great time together and all and now she is coming to visit this weekend. I never thought in a million years that I would have met someone so soon (guess it’s not that soon, huh?) but it happened. It is still kind of early to tell anything but we have fun together and the fact that she is driving a ways to come and see me makes me think she feels the same way. Anyhow, I plan on taking it slow for a while and see how things work themselves out. Hope things are going smoothly for you.Tom