Can I remarry my children's father after I've married someone else?

Marriage Builders

I've searched my Bible and am unable to find clear answers to assist me. I am presently in a situation that requires God's guidance before I will know how to proceed.

My husband John left us in June of 1998 for another woman. [This relationship didn't last] After the initial pain of his leaving and realizing I wasn't going to get him back, I made sure to keep as good a relationship with him as possible for our 2 children's sake. I understood how much they needed their father in their lives, no matter what had happened between him and myself. Eventually, after some months, we were able to become friends and for the past few years have maintained this relationship.

During this time, I thought I had met a man that would be able to fill the void left behind by the children's father. All seemed to be right between us in every way. Greg held a pastoral degree and was extremely knowledgeable of the Bible. He treated me well. When he proposed to me, I said yes. Almost a year later, we were married. This marriage was not meant to be as we were together a total of 8 months, with 6 of those months in Christian marriage counselling. The abuse became too much for me to handle, so after a restraining order was given to him, he was ousted from our home. During the last couple of months, there were many nights that Greg did not return home and honestly I was hoping he had found someone else as my fear of him grew. He has been out of our lives since January of 2002.

Now my dilemma lay in the fact that I am still married to this man. The father of my children and I are growing closer once again and want to pursue a relationship leading to remarriage. Surely God would like to see this happen and our children are extremely excited at the prospect of mom and dad getting back together again. I know also that the only way God would condone a divorce would be through adultery. Greg had threatened me on several occasions that if I didn't give him what he wanted; he would find another women who would. Coupled with the fact that he didn't sleep at home on many occasions has led me to believe he followed through with his threats. However, I have no concrete proof of this.

Would God allow me to pursue a divorce from Greg and allow me to remarry John? John and I have both made huge mistakes in our life decisions and have asked forgiveness of each other. I have also been able to forgive Greg for the abuse of myself and my children, although he doesn't know this, as I haven't seen him since the day the police took him away.

Thank-you for any guidance you may give me,
Georgie

I think God delights in bringing families back together.

I can't back my opinion up with scripture, but I'd say divorce Greg and finish raising your children with their dad.

When I was getting remarried the Pastor asked me if there was anyway that my x and I could work things out. I'm not sure about your present marriage but I'm sure God would want you back with your first hubby. That is something you need to get into prayer about and seek advice from your Pastor.

Georgie,

This is the only reference I could find, don't know if it helps or not...talk to your Pastor.

Deut 24:1-4

24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
NIV

Thank-you Lor, Purpleroses and Marie for your responses. All of you made valid statements. I did some further research after posting.

We are living in sinful times and every life is tainted with sin. Sometimes the only choices we have is between two wrongs. Luther, once said, "Sin boldly." He did not mean that we are to flaunt sinful behavior, but that sometimes we have to make the best choice we can and trust that God will forgive us if we are wrong.

I think the church needs to re-examine divorce, why the Bible doesn't mention abuse as grounds for divorce I don't know. [I am NOT one to deviate from what my Bible tells me and am not trying to twist it's words to suit myself!] Perhaps abuse was not as widespread in those days, but certainly abuse is a form of unfaithfulness. Husbands, are to love their wives as their own flesh. Abuse is a violation of the marriage vows. Now scripture advises a divorced woman to remain single or be reconciled to her husband. (1 Cor 7:10-11 RSV) "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband {11} (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) -- and that the husband should not divorce his wife."

[Yeah! I like this scripture much better Marie!]

Now, looking at that passage I think I need to make sure I have repented of my current situation as a bad mistake, and think about what is best for myself and my children. I have 2 choices. I remain single, or be reconciled and reunited with my first husband. If I make the wrong choice, I trust God will forgive me. I've also come to realize that if we do re-unite, I must not rush into it. There are some serious questions to be answered first. Why was he attracted to another woman? Was there something I could have done that would have kept him from wandering? What guarantee do I have that he won't do it again? Can I trust him to be faithful to me?

I believe that through prayer and yes, obtaining guidance from our pastor, we will ultimately be able to make a more informed decision. I like what we've all come up with so far!

Thank-you!
In His Grace,
Georgie

Sounds like you are getting awfully legalistic about it -- and the spirit of the thing isn't there.

All Christians I know deviate from the scripture. Most of them eat pork and shellfish, and even few of the betrayed spouses on here would recommend stoning the OP to death.

I think you're in the clear.

Georgie,

I am normally the big optimist on here, so this is uncharacteristic of me. But I had to weigh in here, because so far, I htink things might be getting a little off base when it comes to Scripture and God's will.

You were given the passage in Deuteronomy above. It spells out very clearly that once divorced, and one or both of you remarry, you are not to remarry your first spouse. it is very clear.

You bring up the passage in 1st Corinthians that talks about separation. But you are not separated. You are divorced from your first husband. And you have remarried. If your husband remarries you, that would be detestable to the Lord.

I know that everyone wants to concentrate on the love of God, and look at little Jesus, meek and mild. But God is very clear about His rules for life. He says in Malachi that he hates divorce. The Creator of this universe and all of us hates something. And what do we do? We do it anyway, looking for excuses and rationalizations. We say "Oh, he is a forgiving God...He will forgive me for this." And He will! But He will wear you out with the consequences.

When we do not live according to God's will (I am talking about Christians here), we will be corrected by God. It is called sin, and we all know about that. That is part of the human behavior. But, when we willfully disobey Him, especially when we have the knowledge of the truth, then that is more than sin...that is rebellion.

If one of your kids throws a baseball in the house and breaks a lamp...that's sin. But, if you are standing right there and tell him not to throw the ball, and he does so anyway...that's something ENTIRELY different. That is rebellion.

I am not beating you up here Georgie. Believe me, I have wanted to turn the Scripture to my advantage in order to put my life on my agenda and so I could be happy again. But guess what? In the end, He is ALWAYS the same. He never changes (Malachi 3:6).

Here are a few Scriptures to think about...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Matt. 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,' 5and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."<hr /></blockquote>When Jesus talks about hard hearts, He is talking about the person who wants to divorce...for ANY reason. Even BSs have hard hearts when it comes to the WS. Remember, God hates divorce...ALL divorce. I nthe middle of my wife's affair, I posted on here that I was looking for God to give me the word that this marriage was over, and that I could move on (since my wife was committing adultery). And I got some very sage advice from that. Know what it was. Someone posted on one of my threads and stated "MM, if you are waiting for God to tell you to divorce your WW, then you will be waiting a LONG time...because He never will." As the Scripture says above...BSs are PERMITTED due to the hardness of our hearts...only when there is marital unfaithfulness (which includes adultery, drunkness, abuse (brawler), etc...I will try to find the passage that covers that and post it shortly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Matt. 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "`Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and `love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.<hr /></blockquote>Sadly, I see so many Christians (I am guilty of this myself at times) wanting God to rubberstamp our decisions. As Jesus told this guy, the road with Him is very narrow. And sometimes uncomfortable. Many ever lose their lives for Him (martyrs). He never promised us happiness...He promised joy, which is all together different. Even our Declaration of Independence doesnt say we have a right to be happy...just the right to pursue happiness. This man Jesus talked to had the opportunity of a lifetime. To truly walk with Jesus. And he turned away from Jesus and His commandments, because he wouldnt let go of a part of his life. He wouldnt obey in ALL things. And unfortunately, that man got the life he thought he wanted. And completely missed out on the life that Jesus offered...and the joy that came with that.

If we obey, if we follow Him (through His Word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit), we are GUARANTEED joy. Joy is NOT the absence of pain or conflict. When a person is saved, they are no longer bound by sin. we are a new creature. We dont HAVE to sin. We have God within us, in the presence of the Holy Spirit. If we are praying, and walking with Him in all things, then we wont sin. If every decision, every word uttered from our mouths, was first laid before Him for guidance, then we would NEVER sin! The problem is that we just dont get that. Satan distracts us and wears us down. And we begin to believe the lie that it is our sin nature, that we just cant help it...that God will forgive us..go ahead and do it. It is just a little sin. All ofthat is the lie, straight from the pit of Hell.

We are new creatures. I am nolonger "Mortarman," I am "God-within-Mortarman." I am much bigger than anything that Mortarman was or could ever be. I have the power, the strength, the wisom, etc of God within me...and at my disposal. Why on Earth would I rely on my own understanding, on the world's guidance, when I have the Creator's "hardrive" at my disposal, ready at anytime to do a "google-search?" But I do. I am as guilty as anyone. And when I mess things up, it is my own fault. And I can look back and see where God was showing me, and telling me. And I can see that point where I ignored what He has said in Scripture, or He told me through prayer...and the end is always not what it could have been.

Okay, here's a little more...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."<hr /></blockquote>Enough said here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3"What did Moses command you?" he replied. 4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.' 7`For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." <hr /></blockquote>ALL divorce involves adultery. Remember this passage, because it is relevant to your current situation. Now, look at the next.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good --except God alone. 19You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' " <hr /></blockquote>So, a divorce involves adultery. Any remarriage involves adultery. In the case of the BS, that sin of remarrying is put on the back of their previous WS, who committed adultery. What Jesus has said here is that adultery breaks the bond that no man can separate. It is His allowance for us to be no longer under that marriage vow...due to the sin of the adulterer. That adulterer will pay the price of the sins that he/she have caused. You see, in adultery, divorce and remarriage, there is a lot of adultery going on. First off, there is the WS's adultery. Then after the divorce, the WS's actions cause the WS and BS to remarry someone new. By remarrying and having sex, the WS is committing adultery, the person they are remarrying is committing adultery, the BS is committing adultery and the person that they are remarrying is committing adultery. See how this spreads?

Now, the "adultery" committed by the BS in remarrying actually is not legally adultery, because Jesus allowed the divorce for marital unfaithfulness. So He gives the BS an "out."

But, now you have remarried and then divorced due to abuse. I am still looking right now for the passage that describes what Jesus meant by "marital unfaithfulness." I will post it when I find it. But, now, you are thinking of remarrying your former husband, after you remarried. Please think again. You see, you have been in God's will this whole time. You have done this correctly and thus will be blessed for it. But the passsage from Deut. is unambiguous. It says God finds remarriage to a former spouse, after either of you have married someone else, as detestable. And why we would want to do something detestable in God's eyes and still think things will come out okay is beyond me. But I still do it all the time. But there are consequences...there are ALWAYS consequences for doing what He has told us not to do.

Look in 2nd Samuel to what happened to David (a man after God's own heart). David wanted Bathsheba. Problem was, he was a Godly man and new what God had said. But he ignored God's rules...had Bathshebas husband killed (murder), and he committed adultery with her.

What was the consequence? David and Bathsheba's first child died. No amount of praying, asking for forgiveness, intercession, etc could save the child's life. David's rebellion cost his child's life. Now, did God forgive David? Yes. Did God bless his marriage with Bathsheba? Yes. As you can see that following the death of the child, David and Bethsheba got pregnant with another child (Solomon), and God loved Solomon. So, God did forgive...AFTER the consequences.

Too Old Testament for you? Well, let's see what the New testament has to say.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Heb 10:26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins.27There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.28Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people.30For we know the one who said, "I will take vengeance.I will repay those who deserve it." He also said,"The Lord will judge his own people." 31It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.32Don't ever forget those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering.33Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things.34You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail. When all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew you had better things waiting for you in eternity.35Do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord, no matter what happens. Remember the great reward it brings you!36Patient endurance is what you need now, so you will continue to do God's will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. 37"For in just a little while,the Coming One will come and not delay. 38And a righteous person will live by faith.But I will have no pleasure in anyone who turns away."
39But we are not like those who turn their backs on God and seal their fate. We have faith that assures our salvation.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, I know that I am throwing a lot out there. But, look at the bold parts of this passage. God is not talking about the unsaved here. He is talking about Christians. If we ignore His teachings and His will, we will fall into His hands, just as a sinful unrulely child falls in the hands of his parents for discipline.

I have gone long on this. And probably could go longer. In all of this, I just implore you, and your former husband, to look for God's will here. God NEVER, EVER contradicts Himself. So, since He said these things above, they continue to be true...they continue to be His will.

Some grave mistakes have been made here. Mostly by your former husband. His A has caused the destruction of your marriage and great upheaval to your kids. But, unfortunately, there is such a thing as it being too late. Example...It is too late to marry your former childhood sweetheart after you have married someone else. Okay, if they had shown up before you had married, then you probably would have married him/her. But since they showed up after you married someone else, it is TOO LATE.

Unfortunately, God is clear on remarrying a former spouse AFTER they have remarried. I know how you feel on this. All you want is that family back together, and your former husband may want that now too. But according to God, it is too late.

As God has said, sin cannot go without consequences. David found that out...at a VERY high price. Your husband's adultery, and loss of his marriage...and now the inability according to God to remarry each other, is the consequences of his sin.

What will be the cost of both of your refusal to obey Him now. Yes, I am sure He wanted things different for your family. But unfortunately, you have remarried. And He finds you coming back to your former husband detestable. Why? I dont know...but He says He does. And God NEVER changes.

Again, I am sorry to rain on this, because if this had happened before you remarried, it would have been God's will...and would have been great for everyone involved. But, a remarriage now would not be His will...and we do not know what the price will be paid for doing something that is not His will. This is the BIGGEST reason I hel on so long with my wife. I just didnt want to end things, move on, remarry...and then my wife come to her senses. Because, then it would be too late.

I will pray for you and your family Georgie. And for your former husband. God has a plan for your life now...and for him. It doesnt include each other as husband and wife again. But it does include some wonderful things for all of you, if you will listen and follow him.

I am the biggest supporter of saving marriages and mothers and fathers getting back together on this board. But, not if it is not God's will. And the one thing that precludes that is one of the spouses marrying someone else after divorce.

Again, I will pray that all of you receive His guidance in this...and that you find joy in what He has to offer.

In His arms.

[ September 30, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

sorry for the multiple posts, don't know why it did that.

[ September 30, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

"I am the biggest supporter of saving marriages and mothers and fathers getting back together on this board. But, not if it is not God's will. And the one thing that precludes that is one of the spouses marrying someone else after divorce."

What a load of crap. I have never believed that the Bible is the word of God, and this is a perfect example of why. I very much believe in God, and I believe God would want you to be with the father of your children. In fact, I would tend to believe that God is the force leading you back to the father of your children.
Michael

Michael,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />"I am the biggest supporter of saving marriages and mothers and fathers getting back together on this board. But, not if it is not God's will. And the one thing that precludes that is one of the spouses marrying someone else after divorce."<hr /></blockquote>What a load of crap. I have never believed that the Bible is the word of God, and this is a perfect example of why. I very much believe in God, and I believe God would want you to be with the father of your children. Michael<hr /></blockquote>Please say what you REALLY feel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I also believe God wants husbands and wives to be together, especially for the children. And He has shown that time and time again. But, in the case of divorcing, marrying someone else, and then divorcing again and trying to remarry the first spouse, God is very much clear that He does not approve. Why? I am not sure. I am actively trying to research that now, because God does not make arbitrary rules...there is always a reason! But Deuteronomy 24 is VERY clear on what He expects.

Your beliefs are your beliefs. What they are founded on (feelings, life experiences, etc) I am not sure. And you have every right to them. In Georgie's case, she was searching the Scriptures, as all good Christians should, for the answers to her issues. If you dont believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then so be it. I can PROVE to you it is, with realistic, scientific FACTS...but that is not for this board, nor this thread. If you want, we can email and have a discussion concerning that.

So, for the Christian...the Word of God is the Bible, as well as being led by the Holy Spirit. The two are NEVER in contrast to each other, but always the same.

God has said a remarriage under this type of situation is "detestable" to him. Again, the "why" I am not sure of and I will actively seek the answer to that question.

Again, the point of this thread by Georgie was to find God's Word on her situation, as expressed by the Bible. If you dont believe, then fine.

In His arms.

Ouch Mortarman!!!

I can't argue with scripture, nor debate it's meaning. You have made it all painfully clear. Yes, I could find many scriptures related to God's graciousness and mercy. I could locate scripture telling us of the many times God has forgiven the most terrible of sins, even one's commited knowing at the time that they were wrong.

A huge sadness fills me now. Why? Shouldn't I be feeling grateful that I haven't hurt God any further? Shoot, this feels bad!!!!

Georgie - It is with a heavy heart that I agree with Mortarman on this. The Scriptures are very clear that in this situation you must seek reconciliation with your current H and NOT seek a remarriage to your first H. When you say abuse was involved with your second H, what type of abuse? I understand there is a RO and no contact for 1 1/2 years. Do you know where Greg is? Even if you did that would not change the facts or reality in your situation. You are bound to him legally and morally.

Please don't think anyone is judging you here. We are simply standing on the Word as you indicate you are. Anyone can pick a verse or two and twist it out of context or manipulate them to fit their situation. However, the Scripture must be accepted in it's entirety and it's proper context or we reject it completely.

You are a wonderful and loving person with beautiful children. We don't question your motivation or ethics, we just question your judgement. God will richly reward you in the long run if you do the right thing now. God bless!

MichaelinDallas- Wow 3 repeated posts to say that.

God gave us laws for a reason because he knew we would sin. He wanted to show us that we are sinners. The sin was there before the laws, the laws were put into place to actually show us what we were doing wrong.

If everyone went around divorcing/remarrying/divorcing/remarrying the land would surely be defiled. There are laws in place to counter against those types of situations. Otherwise people would divorce even more freely then they already do.

Georgie believes the word of God so the laws of the bible apply to her. So I find it very difficult when someone says that someone else's "system of laws" is a load of crap.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Matthew 5:32
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." <hr /></blockquote>It gets confusing depending on your situation. I would seek proper guidance. It may depend on your grounds for Divorcing your current husband?

MM,
I've done studies on David, and still it puzzles me that since he had a few other wives before Bathsheba, and at least one after (Abigail), and many concubines...why he wasn't constantly living in God's condemnation of adultery. With Bathsheba, there was adultery plus the murder of Uriah.

Marrying the adultery partner who murdered your husband seems to fit the definition of "detestable" and their marriage was blessed with Solomon.

God looked at David's heart and that, along with salvation, is where my faith lays.

Lor,

You are correct about David. He had several issues with the Lord over his lifetime, as we all do. I just brought out that particular consequence for his sin. In reading 2nd Samuel, David's adultery and murder of Uriah cost him and Bathsheba the life of their first child. His sin had consequences. That was what I was speaking to. The fact that sin ALWAYS has consequences. Someone MUST pay for the sin...and the payment is ALWAYS death.

In Old Testament times, that payment was done with animal sacrifices. But Jesus came to pay the ultimate sacrifice, for our sins, once and for all.

The problem is, and a huge issue with heathens, that Christians tend to live off the legacy of Christ taking our sins on Himself...and thus our sins are okay...because Jesus will forgive us...and has forgiven us.

While true, that does not take away the consequences of that sin. Just because I am saved, does not mean if I sleep around on my wife, that I wont catch a deadly disease. There are consequences for my sins.

The passage in Hebrews 10 speaks about believers in rebellion. As I pointed out, while sin is in a loose way, a rebellion from God, please understand the meaning I am talking about here when I talk about rebellion. Like I pointed out above with the kid throwing the baseball in the house.

If we go on sinning (doing the same sin), after we have been told, shown, etc...after we have received the knowldege of the truth...there are no sacrifices to cover the consequences of that sin. What God is saying here is that we might sin, and He might cover it for us if we have true repentence. But He is saying here that he will NOT cover the consequences of rebellion by Christians. It doesnt say He cant...it says He wont.

Think about this. His Son was hung on that Cross and all of the sins of all of the Christians that will ever live were thrown on Him that day. He took the punishment, the pain, the humiliation...He took all of what was due to all of us...onto Himself in one instant. There isnt a person who has ever lived that knows that pain. Our pains pale in comparison.

Now, we take that knowledge of the pain He suffered and what He went through to pay the price for our sins, and then we as Christians just treat it like some everyday event. "Oh, I know it is wrong...but God will forgive me." First of all, that is a total disrespect of God, of Jesus, and what He did for us. Second, it destroys our testimony. And then people around us, the non-believers, cant see any reason to come to Christ. In many ways, the carnal Christian is WORSE than the unbeliever. At least the unbeliever will bear their own sins when they die. The carnal Christian expects Jesus to, but at the same time, is totally ungrateful for that sacrifice.

I am a BS. I know the pain of all of this. But my pain is just one drop in an ocean of pain that Christ endured. If the Master had to endure all of this, what makes us think that we should expect any different in our lives. Again, we are not called to happiness in this life. That is just a blessing. No, we are called to have joy...even in our pains.

It is painful right now for Georgie. Here it is, after all of this mess, the opportunity to put back together what always should have been. But God has said that isnt possible now. Of course that hurts. Of course that seems unfair. Afterall, she wasnt the one that screwed up...why is she continuing to have to pay the price for her husband's mistakes?

Well, we know the answer. Why did Jesus, who was perfect, have to bear my sins? Afterall, it wasnt fair to Him...He did nothing wrong. It wasnt fair to have His closest friends betray Him in His time of need. How painful, how lonely.

But, even more so, the loneliness when He was separated from His Father for three days after His death had to be excruciating. Imagine what it will be like in Heaven. Imagine perfect love. Now, Jesus has lived in that perfect love for eternity. But for three days, He was no longer in that love, couldnt feel it. All He could feel was the pain of the judgment thrown on Him because of us. We think that our spouses betrayal was pain. But imagine being separated from perfect love, when you have always had it. It is more than I can even imagine.

So, it comes down to this. What did Jesus do on that Cross, what did He do by rising on that third day? What does that mean to each of us? Unbelievers find no meaning in that. And they will face Jesus upon their death...and they will pay for their sins themselves. For Christians, we should be on our knees everyday thankful that someone took that away from us. And reminding ourselves daily of just what it took for Jesus to do that.

So, when it comes down to it, we must obey. How could we do otherwise? Jesus has compassion for us. He knows what Georgie is feeling, and the torment that is within her. He knows what it feels like for her not to be able to put that back together because God forbids it. He knows. Remember, right before He was arrested, He had prayed to God, that if there was another way, that He wanted to take that...but that He would do God's will regardless. He too wished there was another way, than through the pain. So, He knows! But just like the woman at the well, He expects us, once we know the truth, to "go and sin no more."

As you closed with, God does look at our hearts. And He does have compassion for those that are trying to do the right thing, as Georgie is trying to do now. For those that will listen, He will lead her to peace and joy...and a fulfilling life. To those that dont (or wont), then He has spoken. There will be no sacrifice that will cover the consequences of rebellion.

In His arms.

[ October 01, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ouch Mortarman!!!

I can't argue with scripture, nor debate it's meaning. You have made it all painfully clear. Yes, I could find many scriptures related to God's graciousness and mercy. I could locate scripture telling us of the many times God has forgiven the most terrible of sins, even one's commited knowing at the time that they were wrong.

A huge sadness fills me now. Why? Shouldn't I be feeling grateful that I haven't hurt God any further? Shoot, this feels bad!!!!<hr /></blockquote>Of course it does Georgie. I know how you feel. Most on here do.

You say that you have found Scriptures of God forgiving even the most heinous of sins. Sure. God does forgive. I was not talking about that above. I was talking about Him taking away the consequences of that rebellion. When we sin, we do not always get the consequences of that sin. God protects us due to our hearts, and our repentence.

But He has said in Hebrews 10, that He will not take away the consequences of rebellion by a Christian. He will forgive...of course He will. He forgave David and Bathsheba. But the consequences still came nonetheless.

Everyone likes to concentrate of God's love, on His holiness. But one HUGE part of being holy is judgment. If God swept sins under the rug, that would make Him unholy. There must be justice for our sins. Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for those that will receive it. And thus we will not pay in eternity for those sins. But, that is not to say that He is going to take away the consequences of those sins. He can, and many times does.

But, i nthe case of rebellion, He has limited Himself. He has said that He will not allow any sacrifice, any mitigating of the consequences of rebellion. He wont take the consequences away. And there are a whole host of reasons why, as I spelled out in my last post. Ultimately, He loves the heathen next door to you, and wants them to come to repentence also. And if your testimony is ruined because of your actions, then His will isnt done and that person may be forever lost.

We so often want to concentrate on the unfairness, of the pain in this life. But God has a MUCH bigger picture. He is looking at eternity. And in the terms of that, then His rules, His decisions, make great sense.

Again, I do feel your pain...and I am praying for you. But please do not confuse forgiveness with consequences. In the end, we are not the Creator...thus we have no right to write the rules. We have no idea the big scheme of things, in our own lives, and in everyone else's. But He does. Have faith in that...He will lead you to where you need to be.

In His arms.

MM,
You explain these points well. I'm in a Bible study using Bob George's "Classic Christianity" and we've been talking a lot about mistakes, sin, rebellion, and what exactly Jesus did on the cross for all time.

Enough hijacking from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Y'know...

I almost replied 3 times and stopped.

I reread Deut... not ambiguous.

But after a lot of time in Luke - kinda my favorite chapter and some prayer I respectfully but emphatically disagree here.

I do believe that Christ freed us of many things, sometimes including previous laws. I prayed hard about this last night and today. I am usually the wisecracking jokester type but I am serious for once.

I'm not going to debate which passage takes precedence when one conflicts with another - i generally go with New Testament over old...

I would not dismiss the idea of restoring your original family. Talk to a few true theologians in your area and pray more on this. Your relationship with God is intensely personal and it sounds as though it is foremost in your heart - if you pray and ask His guidance with this and really look at what he puts in your heart I think the answer will be there.

I do believe the Bible, I have also seen times when things seemed to conflict and prayer and a willingness to listen gave me an answer - I have yet to have one of those answers turn out 'wrong' even though sometimes I spent a lot of time looking up and saying "You sure about this one, or are you messing with me?". Ignoring what I KNEW he was telling me generally has had messy results.

Only God knows whether he wants your original family to be restored.. I have a feeling he will tell you if you ask with an open heart/mind.

Personally? I believe nothing would please God more than to see you raising your children with thier father in a loving, Christian home. Yes, you both lost the path... but I just re-read the story of the prodigal son today.

it isn't the flawless that He treasures most... it is the flawed who get it right and regain the path that makes Him most proud.

No disrespect to Mortar - can't argue with his points, but I do truly believe that the sequel to that book changes things to some degree.

Wish you and your kids the very best... if it is in His plan, i hope that your family is restored and becomes more than it was.

God bless and good luck,
2.

aside from all the other issues (relgious pros and cons), you are apparently having at least an emotional affair with your exH. Like all affairs, I imagine this clouds your judgement, and affects your marriage....whether this was a factor from the git go, I don't know.... did you have any more interaction with your exh...other than bare minimum co-parenting requirements? If so, your relationship with new H, before and after the marriage would have been tainted by your behaviour. For the time being you should be in NC (except child issues in the case of your exh) with anyone who you feel attraction too, until you resolve your marriage...right? You clearly had a lot of interest in this marriage, but seem to be seeking no help in making it work, just permission/encouragement to walk away, that is contrary to what MB is for (and really hypocritical for those who are giving advice).... Why aren't you (and maybe you have, and I am unaware of it) posting info about what is specfically going on in the marriage, and asking for help in restoring your marriage? If in fact your H is some sort of major monster, I agree, leave...is that the case? THEN pursue other relationships, an affair is not the appropriate solution...nor is divorcing someone with the intent of marrying someone else, that is what affairs are all about, and everyone (including you I assume) abhors.

As I've said before, this board has given me more insight into Christianity than I have ever had before. Sometimes the insight has been very positive, sometimes very negative. Sometimes, I just can't tell.

In this case, well, I'm awfully glad that 2oak posted what he did. I'm no Bible scholar, but something in what MM had to say rang very wrong to me.

From a completely different point of view, Georgie, perhaps you should be asking God how best to raise your children and what's right for them? I have no idea what the answer might be. But taking it out of the framework of marriage and into the framework of the best interests of your children. God surely has something to say about both things, and maybe that'll help you work it through in your own mind.

Whatever you do and whatever advice you get here or elsewhere, please make sure that you make your decision a loving, considered one, with what's best for you, your family, and both your XH and your current H firmly in mind. No matter what we say here, this is YOUR life, and sometimes the right choice is the one that every single person tells you is wrong.

Georgie,

Go talk to your Pastor...does he knows you and your situation?

It's easy to give advice when you don't have all the pieces.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You need real spiritual guidance, one way or the other.

You might be interested in www.rejoiceministries.org. Others have posted about them on here.

I wanted to follow up here, because I can see that there are some negative connotations to what I posted above. And I didnt mean that to happen, necessarily.

As EVERYONE has said here, Georgie, you should go and talk to your pastor. Lay everything out there, all of these issues raised by yourself, and others, and find out what he thinks in relation to Scripture. This is always the smart thing to do.

Second, I have no doubt that one of the biggest reasons you ae thinking of pursuing this is the love of your children and the possibility that they could have their family back together. Your motivations are good, and your heart is in the right place.

But, God has also spelled out that the heart is deceitful...it is decrepit at its very base. We must think with our heads, if we are to know what is TRULY best for us, and our children. And what is ALWAYS truly best for us is what is God's will. His direction, his laws, his love...all of those are always good for us.

He makes rules for our own purpose, to keep us safe and healthy, as well as those around us. Too often in this society, we believe that as long as someone's heart is pure and they are sincere, that it is okay what they are doing. But according to God, that is about as wrong as we can be. You see, we can be sincere, and at the same time, be sincerely wrong. We may be wrong due to ignorance, or lack of judgment. But we would be wrong, nonetheless.

It is like the wino on the corner. Is dropping a buck in his can helping him? Not really. Sure, my heart is in the right place. And a few bucks like that, and he could get a meal. But, where does that leave him? Broke, and hungry again in short order. What would be better, if we TRULY want to help, is to get him into a place that he can get help for his problems, teach him a skill, whatever. It is like the old saying "Give him a fish, and he eats today. Teach him to fish, and he eats for a lifetime."

We can help someone with the goodness of our hearts, and not really be helping them. My wife works as a nurse. One thing she tells me is that very soon after surgery, the nurses get the patients up and around, moving around. Of course, this is very painful, and it looks like the nurses at best, dont care...and at worse, love to inflict pain. But, it is that moving around that helps the patient heal faster, and staves off other maladies that come from post-surgery. So, they do what is painful to the patient, for the greater good of the patient.

And so does God. Many times in our pain, we cannot see how a loving God would let us go through it. Why He doesnt allow us to opt out of being moved around after surgery, so to speak. The rules he has for us dont make sense when we are in that pain.

But it is after the crisis is over, after we are healed, that we truly understand the "why" of what He has done. And we are so very thankful.

Why does God detest remarriage to a former spouse after you have married someone else? Again, I am not sure. I am waiting on MY PASTOR to email me back with that answer. But I am assured, due to faith and everything God has written and shown me, that Deut. 24 is there for a VERY good reason...and it is there for us. Again, God NEVER contradicts Himself, and He NEVER issues arbitrary rules.

What Georgie should be asking herself, and her pastor, is the same thing I am asking mine. Why is that rule there? Why does God find marriage under those conditions detestable? Because knowing the reason for that, will allow her, and all of us, to understand what the real loving and compassionate thing to do is. And we wont have followed our hearts...we will have used our heads.

I am not a pastor, nor do I play one on TV. I am a Christian who very much seeks the truth of God. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I believe that He speaks to Christians through the Holy Spirit in order to guide us. I believe that He uses our fellow Christians to help guide us also, and build us up. Many times, the answers to questions I have prayed on have come through just fellow believers, not from my pastor. That is why I study, and try to learn more. Not to become a pastor. but to be able to live this life as God wills, and at the same time, to be able to help my brothers and sisters.

Could I be wrong? Sure. But so far, the Scriptures have shown that this is not allowed. That it is detestable to God. Maybe there is something in the New Testament that I am missing. maybe God no longer finds that detestable. Maybe He changed His mind. Maybe He likes the idea now (obviously He didnt at one time). But I have yet to find that. I have yet to find Him saying that He finds divorce okay. Instead, He still issues the same Old Tesstament decree...that He HATES divorce (Malachi 2). All divorce. Even for reasons of unfaithfulness. He HATES it! Because it destroys so many lives...for several generations.

And so, I see that His Old Testament position that He finds this sort of remarriage detestable as something He still believes. And if true, I am sure it is for a good reason...because He is a whole lot smarter than me.

I would love it, if I am wrong about this, to find where God has changed His mind about this being detestable, to something that He wants and loves. Because I too wish that Georgie and her kids had that life again. That those kids' mom and dad in the same house is what everyone wants. Including God. But God also limited that. He said that He wants reconciliation in marriages and families. But reconciliation under these conditions, is detestable. Again, there is such a thing as too late.

When we die, it is too late to come to Jesus and ask to be saved. It is too late. You dont get another shot. Is that unloving of God? Is that uncompassionate? If He wants all of us to come to Him, if He is a God of love, then how could He deny someone who has just died, who sees where they were wrong, and is now pleading for forgiveness...how can He deny Him salvation then? Because it is too late. There is a time when what we do cannot be reversed. A just God cannot just arbiotrarily wipe away sins. He cant wipe them away anyway...because that would make Him unholy. They have to be paid for.

He allowed His Son to take those sins upon Himself. But, in doing so, He stated that there is one certain condition for His Son to take your sins...and that is accepting Him as your Lord and Savior. That's the rule. He didnt have to send His Son. He could have let all of us die. But since He did, it is beyond me how we can question how a person who is getting saved, can question how they are being saved.

It is like a man who is overcome by smoke in his house. The fireman comes in, finds him...throws him over his back, and takes him to safety. But during the exit, it got kind of rough, and the man who was being saved was bounced around a little...and actually received a broken arm. And then the man wanted to sue!! He wanted to complain about how he was saved. How ungrateful. That fireman could have just left him there to his doom. But he risked his own life to save this man's. And not so much as a thank you. Just complaints about bruises and a broken arm.

We need to get back to what's important here. What is the MOST important thing here, for Christians, is our relationship with God. Our walk with Him. Our faith and trust in Him. Our own pains, our children, everything is second to that. "What is it for a man to gain the whole world, and still lose his soul?" Another way of saying that is "What is it for a man to find happiness his own way, but still miss out on the true meaning of his life?" You cant take it with you. Your wealth, your house, your kids...none of it. The only thing you take with you is your relationship (or lack thereof) with Jesus. If you have that relationship, then He will meet you on the other side of death and welcome you home, just as the prodigal son was. But if you dont have that relationship with Him, then Jesus will look at you and say "I never knew you." And then, it wont matter how good a father or mother you were...or how good at your job you were...or how big your heart was. You will be where even the most evil people who have ever existed will go. Your heart in the end will not save you. Only that relationship with Him will.

If we are to have that relationship with Him, then we had best listen to what He says. To what He likes. To what He doesnt like. If He says He hates something...should we do it anyway? Do you think that it might strain the relationship a little (or a lot)? Do you think that He will just stand idly by and say "That's okay..I still love you...all is forgiven." And all ofthe consequences are removed?

How loving is that? It isnt. A God like that I want no part of. I want a God that will do what is necessary to help me remain in His presence. Whatever it takes! If it took my wife getting into an affair for me to wake up fro mwhere I was headed, then I am glad for this pain...and eventually, I may even be able to accept that this horrible thing has been used for my own good.

This situation, in the end, for Georgie, will be turned for her own good, and her children's own good, IF she follows Jesus and maintains that relationship.

Georgie, I continue to pray for you and your ex-husband. I continue to search the Scriptures for the answer, because I too would love for God to allow your children to have their family together again. Please see your pastor. Please pray and search the Scriptures. Find the answers to these questions (I am doing so also). Never, ever take the word of anyone (including your pastor). If someone tells you something, go to the Word and find it. Make sure they are right. Because even the most sincere person, who is trying to help you, may be leading you astray. It could be me, even.

Go and find out. Post back here what you find, for all of our edification.

In His arms.

For sufdb: No affairs I’m aware of.

The present husband: - My marriage to my 2nd husband (Greg) lasted 8 months, with 6 of those months in Christian marriage counselling. He was removed from our home with the police in attendance 20 months ago for abuse. I haven't seen, spoken or corresponded with him except through a lawyer to obtain the restraining order. The simple thought of talking to this man through 'any' medium TERRIFIES me. My children are also afraid of him. The atmosphere in our home changed drastically when he was out of it. We all noticed the lack of tension and how comfortable we felt once again. My faith in God and 'only' with His help am I'm finally off all medication to assist with sleeping and the classic case of clinical depression this relationship put me in. So with an extremely emphatic answer of 'NO', I will not pursue reconciliation with this man whom I should never had married in the first place! I also believe very strongly that he would not want to reunite either since I wasn’t able to live up to his rules and regulations.

The former husband: (married 17 ½ yrs.) - Since my children and I were living in Alberta and their father (John) in B.C., the only contact we had was via the phone when the children called him or vice versa. [For several years] Very occasionally was there an email and ALL these conversations were based on the children; how they were doing, etc. This contact with him was always lighthearted and many times full of laughter as we were able to rebuild a friendship. Approx. 6 months ago, topics of these phone calls shifted to 'us' and I revealed to him that since the recent revival at our church I felt God wanted me to return to B.C. I didn’t know how I could possibly afford to move as I was working part time and had no money left over each month to save for a big move like this.

Through prayer and much faith, funds started to appear from many sources. Refund cheques from the Government, income tax mistakes were discovered resulting in more Government cheques sent to me. Opportunities for me to do respite care arose with my employment, doubling my wages!! Look what happens when you put your faith totally in God!! I knew He wanted me back in BC, although I still didn’t know His plan for me or what I was to do once there. John flew out to drive the moving van for us so I could drive my car. It has only been a couple of months that we have had the opportunity to talk face to face. What has surprised us is the fact that it feels very much like we have both awoken from a bad dream and were never apart.

For Mortarman: Are you a Bible scholar?

Thank-you and bless you for all the time you have spent on this thread! It is very possible that you have touched many others with your wisdom and knowledge of His Word. I have no doubt that God is very pleased with you and I thank you for your prayers.

After reading your first post, I was devastated but that was solely because I believe you had found the truths I was looking for but really didn’t want to know. I ‘must’ put God first in my life ‘always’ for only He will give me life eternal. The rest of that day and night, I spent with my Bible and God in prayer. I shouldn’t have been so surprised when I awoke the next day to a feeling of great peace and joy. God will make the ultimate decision for me. I now pray for discernment. I won't dispute His will for my life.

It will take up to a year to obtain a divorce from Greg. (Presuming he cooperates) Since I don’t know where he is or how to contact him, it may be less time than this.
I will spend this time seeking God’s will for my future. God will make it very clear what He wants me to do just as He has done in the past. Thank-you for your diligence and research MM. I will keep you posted as I learn and am grateful to you for doing the same.

For 2ofaKind and Just J: Thank-you for speaking up!

You have brought to light some great examples from the Bible to support your beliefs on this issue.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> “if you pray and ask His guidance with this and really look at what he puts in your heart I think the answer will be there.”
<hr /></blockquote>I agree whole-heartedly with this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> “Only God knows whether he wants your original family to be restored.. I have a feeling he will tell you if you ask with an open heart/mind. Personally? I believe nothing would please God more than to see you raising your children with their father in a loving, Christian home.”<hr /></blockquote>Yes, only God knows, and it would be wonderful if this were true! The Bible clearly states that I am now an adulteress and am not to return to my first husband since I am defiled. Our awesome God has a plan and I will follow it to the best of my understanding. Who knows? Only God! Could He have yet another miracle planned for me in my life? We’ll see!

For marque: I’m sceptical!

My Pastor in Alberta knows my situation. That church saw me through 2 relationships. After John and I split, the church was very supportive. When I remarried, they started to withdraw. Then when they saw that marriage fail also, I felt judged and was. The children also spoke to me of how they felt alienated by other members of the church. Unfortunately Christians are more critical of Christians than non-Christians are. They have no idea what is in another’s heart. Only God knows this.

We have found a wonderful supportive church here in BC. The Pastor of this church sees us all going to church together and was referring to John as my husband. I felt badly letting him believe this so told him that we were no longer married. I have left it at that for now, not telling him of the marriage to Greg yet. I would rather my past stay in my past for now and enjoy the acceptance I feel in this new church. I would dearly love to talk to him for advice but instead chose to come to this board and have emailed a couple of Pastors who offer Christian marriage advice. Strangely these Pastors both had different answers to me, as is happening on this board.

I have emailed Focus on the Family; a short distance from my home and after receiving a reply email from them, I am waiting for a phone call from one of their counsellors.

For Lor: Hijack away girl!

I am so glad I chose this Forum to post to. I hope and pray that in some small way, my issues have served to assist others feeling as trapped as I was and that the responses posted here may guide others to lean on Christ for guidance in their life decisions. Jeremiah states that only God knows the plans He has for us.

In God's Grace and love,
Your sister in Christ,
Georgie

Obviously this ain't my business...

BUT - I am not sure where it says in the bible that we can divorce someone who is beating the crap out of us but I believe the IMPLICATION is somewhat clear.

At any rate, your thread and Mort's research made me pull out my Bible and do some reading - which I had forgotten to do lately so THANKS!

At any rate - Please do talk to your pastor and perhaps some others, I am specifically interested in the freedom from the law that Christ gave us in addition to cleansing of sins.

The Bible is a very short book in some ways - I have reread certain passages on numerous occasions when different issues were facing me. Each time the reading and prayers for discernment (good word) were answered and I did feel at peace with the result - and when i ignored what I was told I had to have the Almighty's boot lodged in my rear before I figured it out :-)

Y'know, when you work like crazy trying to figure out His will sometimes a good long walk and quiet time results in answers...

You'll find'm :-)

Thank-you 2OfaKind

I'm very happy you pulled out your Bible again! Praise the Lord!

As far as I know, the only reason God will allow divorce is for adultery or unfaithfulness. Adultery is clear but unfaithfulness may be open to interpretation. I've opted for the 'clear' option.

I believe that adultery was committed thus my blessings from God on a divorce. [as stated in my first post]

Yes, I am actively seeking advice from different Pastors and Christian counsellors. I'm looking forward to hearing what MM's Pastor has to say, too. You are right on with your advice about slowing down to hear God speak. An open mind and heart is all we need to hear from God and to know what direction He would have us go. No neon signs flashing in the sky, that's for sure! :-)

God Bless you!
Georgie

24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

2ofakind said this was not ambiguous and was clear, but I am not so sure. Read carefully. "IF a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her"-
Well, Georgie's H divorced her because he had OW. There was nothing 'indecent' necessarily about Georgie. HE just made the poor choice of committing adultery and divorced her. So has Georgie really been defiled??
I think that is open to prayer and interpretation. If Georgie's ex has truly repented and they can repair a marriage damaged by adultery I think that if God is leading you in that direction, that he would honor the marriage. Very important though- you need to finalize your divorce with Greg before spending any more time with John, or you are having an EA and that is not in God's will I don't think.
Don't listen to my opinion though about something I am sure of- just think about it for yourself and put it heavily into prayer. I do not take a legalistic approach to Christianity so I do believe God forgives and while there are consequences, your sins are forgotten in His eyes.

Hi adgirl

I think it's okay to be spending time with John as our 14 yr. old son is always with us. We go to church on Sundays, then to watch our son play soccer on Tues, Thurs and Sat. We may rent a video but again, it's the three of us.

Sometimes, like Paul, we will find that God answers prayer by giving us not what we ask for but something better. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 - Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. Each time he said "....My power works best in your weakness."

I feel like I'm playing a game of tug of war with myself. One moment I feel pulled to wanting to believe God wants us back together as a family again and will forgive me if I'm wrong. The next moment, I'm determined that Deuteronomy has it all wrapped up in easy to understand black and white text. That's free will for you!

ADGirl,

I hear what you are saying. And if we justtake Deut. 24 by itself, one could certainly interpret it that way. But one Scripture does not stand alone. It must be taken in its entirety.

First off, what is a divroce? What is a legal divorce according to God? Is it going down to the courthouse and getting that piece of paper? When is the marriage actually over with andthey are no longer husband and wife?

The marriage is for a lifetime. God said what He has joined together, let no man tear apart. it is a bond that cannot be broken, EXCEPT upon death.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Rmoans 7:1 Now, dear brothers and sisters--you who are familiar with the law--don't you know that the law applies only to a person who is still living? 2Let me illustrate. When a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.<hr /></blockquote>The question here is that if this is true, then how can God allow divorce for adultery? I mean, her husband didnt die, did he? And if he didnt die, then she is still joined to him.

Well, going back to the original text, one can find that the meaning of death here has multiple meanings. Of course, physical death releases you from the bond of marriage. But what many dont know is that spiritual death can also release you from your marriage. That is what adultery is...it is a spiritual death, one where God then allows divorce. With adultery, the two are no longer bound togther, just as if one spouse had physically died.

Now, if someone commits adultery one time, are they spiritually dead? Maybe. Spiritual death is where the Christian is in rebellion and will no longer come under God's law and obey. I spelled out in a previous post above concerning rebellion, so I wont go into that.

But how do we know when someone is spiritually dead? Well, in the physical sense, we know due to certain symptoms (stop breathing, heart stops, no pulse, etc). But, even with those symptoms, how do we know this person is physically dead? Well, a doctor or coroner examines this person a declares them dead.

How do we know that a person who has received Jesus as their savior is spiritually dead (remember, those that arent Christians are already spiritually dead due to Adam)? Well, God spells out how to do that...and it has nothing to do with the local courthouse. And it certainly isnt their spouse declaring them spiritually dead. It is God's "coroner" on Earth...the church.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Matthew 18:15 "If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back.16But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses.17If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won't accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector. 18I tell you this: Whatever you prohibit on earth is prohibited in heaven, and whatever you allow on earth is allowed in heaven.19"I also tell you this: If two of you agree down here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you.20For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them."<hr /></blockquote>The bold emphasis is what I am getting to. In the Bible, who is someone that is a tax collector or pagan? It is someone who is spiritually dead. So, if the BS goes through this process, and the WS is still unrepentent, then the church declares that person spiritually dead...and with death, the BS is free to divorce and remarry. Verses 18-20 speak to the fact that God uses the church as his court, and that the just verdicts rendered by the church are thus accepted by Him.

So, we have a WS who wont repent. This person is a Christian. That spouse is taken before the church, and due to him not repenting, he is declared spiritually dead. The BS is now free to divorce and remarry. Just as if that spouse had physically died. And as I showed in the first passage of this post, it is only through death that we are allowed to remarry.

Want more proof? Jesus talked to the woman at the well. He asked her where was her husband. She said that she had no husband. Jesus then showed her that he knew her situation...that she had 5 husbands. Why 5? Because she never divorced properly the first four. They may have been spiritually dead, but in her case, she didnt have them declared dead. When a soldier goes missing in action, when can a spouse get his death benefits? The answer is when he is declared dead by the government. God's governmen on the earth is the church (I am not necessarily speaking ofthe Catholic church...I am not Catholic...I am speaking of the body of Believers...all of the Christian churches).

Now, what is that woman supposed to do, the one with 5 husbands? She is now living in adultery. Well, Jesus told her what to do...He said go and sin no more. That means start right here and move forward in truth.

This is where Georgie is at. Her ex-husband has created a great mess. Her new husband has been abusive, and she is now divorcing him. What does she do? She does as Jesus said...she goes and sins no more. That is the compassion of God...He is allowing her to move on, to make a better life filled with joy. But she must follow Him to do that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Romans 7:7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is evil? Of course not! The law is not sinful, but it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "Do not covet."8But sin took advantage of this law and aroused all kinds of forbidden desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.9I felt fine when I did not understand what the law demanded. But when I learned the truth, I realized I had broken the law and was a sinner, doomed to die.10So the good law, which was supposed to show me the way of life, instead gave me the death penalty.11Sin took advantage of the law and fooled me; it took the good law and used it to make me guilty of death.12But still, the law itself is holy and right and good.13But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my doom? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commandment for its own evil purposes.<hr /></blockquote>I will cloe with that...and look forward to more discussion. Georgie is in a situation where she knows and wants to do God's will. I trust with her faith, her prayer life and bible study, she will find out His will...and will follow.

Georgie,
What you said here is so very profound...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel like I'm playing a game of tug of war with myself. One moment I feel pulled to wanting to believe God wants us back together as a family again and will forgive me if I'm wrong. The next moment, I'm determined that Deuteronomy has it all wrapped up in easy to understand black and white text. That's free will for you!<hr /></blockquote>This is the struggle we all have as Christians. It is the struggle to do right, as I showed in the Romans 7 passage above. Keep your heart open...and your mind clear. As you stated before...do whatever His will is, whatever He shows you. You cannot go wrong that way. If you are still in conflict of what Hs will is, then do as the Bible says...and wait on the Lord. He is NOT the author of confusion. That is Satan. So, if there is confusion, it is only because Stan is playing his games again. You keep your face on Jesus. He wil make Satan leave...and then everything will be very clear.

In His arms.

The question here is that if this is true, then how can God allow divorce for adultery? I mean, her husband didnt die, did he? And if he didnt die, then she is still joined to him.

Because Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 say so.

Georgie, Mortar - Hey this was bugging the doodoo out of me and I asked some Christian friends for opinions. I received the following note back after describing your situation - this makes sense, it is both Biblical and Logical as the answers generally are.

What I could not get around is the idea that God would not wnat the restoration of your original marriage due to the very reason remarriage (to another)is condemned - it prevents the return to the original union.

Anyway, here's what i found from a friend - see what you think.

Dear XXXX,

Here is a letter I recently sent to a number of others labouring as missionaries to the western church. I hope it helps. Please write back with
any more questions or just for fellowship. God Bless you.

Dear fellow missionaries for Christ,

This ministry is now receiving many enquiries, often from pastors, over the matter of the confusion being generated in the church regarding the introduction of Deut. 24:1-4 into New Testament Christianity. Lying practically undisturbed since Jesus put it to rest 2000 years ago, it is just now being repackaged by the
enemies of reformation as a new emergent defense against the restoration of historic Biblical marriage, divorce and remarriage theology.

I was at first incredulous that parts of the church would get so upside-down
that some hauled out and dusted off Moses' allowance for sin, and regulations to
administer disobedience in the nation's civil code, as a means to stop repentant restoration of
prodigal spouses to their Christian families. I am unconcerned no more. A whole new twisted theology is being introduced into the church in order to preserve the adulterous remarriages condemned by God, while declaring those actually made by Him as being "ungodly." The extent of the momentum this wicked doctrine is spreading is
breathtaking. May God have mercy on our souls.

The question I have for us missionaries who work to evangelize and reform
the western church is this: "How do we answer the deceivers who now misuse it to avoid
repenting and turning away from their own remarriage sin, and those of their flock, or
more sinister still, using it to stop abandoned wives and husbands and their children from praying and trusting God for the restoration of their families after an affair, a quickie
divorce followed by a church blessed but God cursed adulterous remarriage?
It is obvious in such cases that the church is going to stand behind and support the
sinners instead of the righteous.

This heresy or something like it should have been expected in this fight for
hearts and minds. The verse "My people perish because of lack of knowledge," comes to
mind, as well as "Woe to those who call good bad, and bad good." It is hard to
believe that "Christian leaders" would dare stand in front of Jesus Christ and His most
wounded children and mimic the words of the Pharisees to justify divorce and remarriage. Let
's look at the verses in Question. Deut: 24:1-4

"Suppose a man marries a woman but later discovers something about her that is shameful. So he writes her a letter of divorce, gives it to her, and sends her away. If she then leaves and marries another man and the second husband also divorces her or dies, the former husband may not marry her again, for she has been defiled. That would be detestable to the Lord. You must not bring guilt upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as a special possession."

God Himself referred to that passage in Jeremiah 3:1 then divorced Israel inverse 8.

Next, divorced Israel took other Gods in verse 9. God then proceeded to break the Moses civil code by calling Israel back in verse 14 when he called out to her:

" Return faithless people," declares the Lord "for I am your husband." Jesus himself overrode Deut 24: 1-4 in both Matthew and Mark because of those using it to legalize their adultery in His day. He explained that it was put there by Moses, not God, to regulate sinful men. God's standards from the beginning were far
different from Moses', and Jesus pointed out the difference. He then overturned it by saying:
"But, I say unto you...", restoring the marriage law God had originally commanded but Israel had
corrupted. Jesus did not take ownership of that piece written by Moses any more than God did
in Jeremiah.

Hear this: God has not reinstated Jewish civil law today just so that a man who has stolen another man's wife; or a woman who has seduced a husband away from his wife and children; who had some replacement hocus-pocus sacrilegious ceremony performed by a disobedient priest or pastor; leaving abandoned husbands wives and children without His blessing and His help. If you have any doubt read Malachi 2:7-8 and 2:1-18:

"The priests' lips should guard knowledge, and people should go to them for instruction, for the priests are the messengers of the Lord Almighty. But not you! You have left God's paths. Your 'guidance' has caused many to stumble into sin."...

Here is another thing you do. You cover the Lord's altar with tears, weeping and
groaning because he pays no attention to your offerings, and he doesn't accept them
with pleasure. You cry out, "Why has the Lord abandoned us? " I'll tell you why!
Because the Lord witnessed the marriage covenant you and your wife made with each
other on your wedding day when you were young. But you have been disloyal to her,
though she remained your faithful companion, the wife of your marriage covenant.
Didn't the Lord make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are his. And what does he want? Godly children from your union. So guard yourself; remain loyal to the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce!" says the Lord, the God of Israel. "It is as cruel as putting on a victim's bloodstained coat," says the Lord Almighty. "So guard yourself; always remain loyal to your wife." You have wearied the Lord with your words. "Wearied him?"
you ask. "How have we wearied him?" You have wearied him by suggesting that the Lord favors evildoers since he does not punish them. You have wearied him by asking,
"Where is the God of justice?"
Regarding this whole section of Mosaic Law, and Deut 24:1-4 in particular,
John Wesley had this to say:

"Some uncleanness - Some hateful thing, some distemper of body or quality of mind not observed before marriage: or some light carriage, as this phrase commonly signifies, but not amounting to adultery. Let him write - This is not a command as some of the Jews understood it, nor an allowance and approbation, but merely a permission of that practice for prevention of
greater mischief's, and this only until the time of reformation, till the coming of the Messiah when things were to return to their first institution and purest condition."

When we reflect on this particular situation in 24:1-4 and its possible relevancy and binding force on Christians, we must also weigh other
connected passages in the same light and authority we give this marriage and divorce
teaching. Consider for instance what Moses commanded in Chapter 23, verses 11-12 about charging interest on loans:
"Do not charge interest on the loans you make to a fellow Israelite, whether it is money, food, or anything else that may be loaned with
interest. You may charge interest to foreigners, but not to Israelites, so
the Lord your God may bless you in everything you do in the land you are about to enter and occupy." NLT or in Chapter 25 verses 5 and 6 concerning the requirement to marry a brother's widow:

"If two brothers are living together on the same property and one of them
dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Instead,
her husband's brother must marry her and fulfill the duties of a
brother-in-law. The first son she bears to him will be counted as the son
of
the dead brother, so that his name will not be forgotten in Israel. "NLT

Anyone of these precepts is as authoritative to us today as any other in
this section. We would not think of forcing a brother to marry his widowed
sister-in-law as demanded in this section. Consider the hardship imposed
on
an accident victim if Deuteronomy 23-1 was enforced today.

"If a man's testicles are crushed or his penis is cut off, he may not be
included in the assembly of the Lord."NLT

And what about the next verse, (Deut 23-2) it violates everything we know
about the mercies and salvation plan of Jesus Christ:

"Those of illegitimate birth and their descendants for ten generations may
not be included in the assembly of the Lord."NLT

John Wesley was right - these were interim steps, civil law for a
lawless ancient Israel, put forward by Moses and permitted by God, that
were
the basis of unfulfilled law only until Jesus Christ came and delivered the
New Blood Covenant, thereby finally fulfilling the whole law. In any case
they were
never intended for gentiles as whole divisions of them were excluded
in Deuteronomy 23-3:

"No Ammonites or Moabites, or any of their descendants for ten
generations, may be included in the assembly of the Lord." NLT

Jesus distanced himself from these teachings, pointing out that divorce and
its

regulations were permitted by Moses because of how far these hard hearted
people

were from God and His ways. With his: "But I say unto you...." Jesus
declared that
marriage continues intact, being an indivisible union during life and that
remarriage

is no more than church and state encouraged adultery. As Origen wrote:

"Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seems to be married to a
man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry
who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration
of our Savior, he commits adultery with her." (Commentaries on Matthew
Section 14:24)

It seems to me that both God Himself and His suffering, heart sick prophet
Hosea demonstrated by example the path we are to take in beckoning and
welcoming home wayward prodigals, no matter what they had done, legally or
otherwise.

Hosea was commanded by God to go and bring his wife back to him even though
she

is loved by another man, contrary to Moses' regulations, and love her in
the same way

God loves Israel, even though they chase after other gods (Hosea 3:1) If
unconditional

forgiveness and reconciliation of covenant marriage is God's standard, as He
has so clearly

shown it to be, then ours, as Hosea's was, can be no less.

So the question remains. What would God have us do? I for one will begin to
pray.

"Dear Lord. I pray for your beloved church. You said that You yourself would
lead

it and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. We ask for your mercy
on those

who are faithful to you and to convict by your Holy Spirit those twisting
and turning

to hide the truth from your people. Forgive us of our many sins dear Lord.

Come quickly!"

ADGirl,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />The question here is that if this is true, then how can God allow divorce for adultery? I mean, her husband didnt die, did he? And if he didnt die, then she is still joined to him.<hr /></blockquote>Because Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 say so.<hr /></blockquote>Well ,this is true to an extent. but ask yourself a question. If Matthew 5:32 & Matthew 19:9 say that a BS can divorce their WS due to marital unfaithfulness (which it does), then how does that jive with Rmans 7:1-, which states that a woman (or man) is bound to their husband as long as he lives? Jesus would be saying then that there is an exception. That Romans 7 is wrong...that she isnt bound to her husband as long as he lives, IF marital unfaithfulness is the cause.

Ask yourself why these two seem to be conflicting each other. I spelled out in my last post that they arent really in conflict. That yes, Jesus was continuing to permit divorce due to marital unfaithfulness. But it is not in conflict with Romans 7:1, because as spelled out in my last post, it is that marital unfaithfulness and lack of repentence that causes death (spiritual death).

So, while it is easy to say "Well it is so, because Jesus says so," we need to be very careful in showing that He is never in conflict with Himself.

The point to that question was to get people thinking on the passage in Romans, about how we are bound to our spouses as long as they live. And there is NOTHING we can do about that. If they live, we are still married to them.

If my wife, who was committing adultery, had been brought before the church because I wanted to divorce her (as Jesus said I could do), and she repented and said that she would live with me as my wife and not be unfaithful again, could I still pursue the divorce. No! Then I would be wrong! Then I would be divorcing illegally, and causing adultery. God wants reconciliation in marriages. And He does give us an out...but even in adultery, it still isnt that easy. We still have to go through the hurdles of the church "court."

If my wife repented, then she would still be my wife. And since she had repented, Jesus had forgiven her. And no matter what my feelings are or were, I would have no choice but to forgive her also.

When Hosea brought Gomer home, he told her that she would be his wife again...that she would not be with another man again.

I just wanted everyone to think about this issues of divorce and remarriage...to what God has laid out there. His laws do not contradict. He has said that we are bound to our spouses as long as they live. And He hasnt changed His mind on that one. Even with marital unfaithfulness. Even with Jesus saying we can divorce for that reason. We are still bound to that person until they are dead...and in the case that Jesus spelled out...they would be spiritually dead (marital unfaithfulness).

I always try in my life to take the Scriptures in their entirety. If one takes all the passages written about marriage, divorce, remarriage, sin, reconciliation, repentence...and lays them side by side...it is very evident what God requires. Too often we take one passage (or part of one) and try to derive the meaning of it. It always has to be taken in the context of His entire Word.

A quick example. How many times have we heard that Christians arent supposed to judge? "Judge not, lest ye be judged." The problem with this statement is that the people who say that Christians arent supposed to judge...are wrong. We are supposed to judge. Several times in the New Testament, it calls on Christians to judge. In the end, we will sit by Jesus, and judge the fallen and the fallen angels. We are to judge. So how is it that so many have gotten this passage wrong?

Because they didnt read on. It says "Judge not, lest ye be judged...for in the way you judge, you also will be judged." It isnt saying not to judge...it is saying be careful when and the way you judge. What God is talking about here is hypocritical judgment.

To judge someone for adultery, when we were WSs ourselves, would be hypocritical. That was what Jesus said about the woman caught in adultery. they were all going to stone her. Jesus said that the persons without sin could cast the first stone. Did He say that anyone without ANY sin cast the first stone? No, because that would mean only He could do so. No, He meant that any person there that wasnt guilty of THAT sin (adultery) could cast the first stone. And to make sure everyone understood that He knew who had, Jesus had bent down and began writing in the sand. Know what He wrote? Well, the Bible doesnt say...but it does say that when He did write...they all left. So what is it that He wrote.

Jesus knew, and they all knew the law. That adultery was an offense punishable by stoning. Jesus just gets done saying that anyone that isnt guilty of adultery can cast the first stone. and then they all leave. So, they understood what Jesus was talking about. They knew because Jesus most likely wrote their names in the sand as those guilty of adultery. And they knew that Jesus now knew that they were guilty of the same offense that this woman was. And they knew that if they cast a stone, then after she was done being killed, then they would have to take her place. So they all left!!

I brought this up because here is a classic example of people taking one or two passages out of the Bible, and coming up with the exact wrong conclusion. And I have been as guilty as the next of this.

I hope I have clarified things here.

In His arms.

Georgie, I rarely post here but wanted to remind you about the website recommended by A M Martin. It's rejoiceministries.org. The website has a lot of information for people in exactly your situation. This ministry is directed by a couple who divorced and then remarried. May God bless you as you search for His will.

Well, I am not going to the bible right now, but I know this. You are considered married to your first spouse as your true spouse in God's eyes.
We need to remember to stay out of the old testament when dealing with this issue today as it changed.
Not saying we shouldn't read OT, but we have to apply the NT to us.
I mean, if we go by OT we have men having several wives!
The fact is, I believe God will bless the first union if you remarry faster than any other!
that doesn't mean people don't get divorced for biblical reasons and remarry.
I believe in the forgiveness of all sins when we turn from them repenting fully.
Examine your hears thoroughly, then if you do decide you will make a life time commitment to first H, go for it!
Perhaps God has not blessed the second union for a very good reason!
I am going to search. But if you need more and want to read OT, Go to Hosea.His wife was a harlot, she was passed around in pagan rites, she was sold on the auction block when she was worn out! Hosea bought her back, then was Commanded by God not to touch her sexually for I think it was a year. After that, she was renewed to a healthy woman, loving her children and H.
If you want to read OT, Go to HOSEA!
Wishing you the right decision and happiness. I will go find verse and put here.
LouLou

You can go to Biblegateway.com online and search. This is from Hosea, but you need to read whole book of Hosea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Start with Chapt 1. Hosea and Gomer were used as examples by God for his relationship with Israel. Somewhere is written, which I cannot find, maybe it was in a book I have, about the whole relationship between Hosea and Gomer. But after much sin, she was rejoined to her H and blessed in the marriage.

Hosea 3

Hosea's Reconciliation With His Wife

1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."
2 So I bought her for fifteen shekels [1] of silver and about a homer and a lethek [2] of barley. 3 Then I told her, "You are to live with [3] me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will live with [4] you."
4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Footnotes

3:2 That is, about 6 ounces (about 170 grams)
3:2 That is, probably about 10 bushels (about 330 liters)
3:3 Or wait for
3:3 Or wait for

2ofaKind,

I too am still searching the Scriptures for the possibility that Georgie could remarry her former husband, after she has already married. And believe me, I have accepted all that anyone has posted or told me, because I know that I still have a lot to learn (as do we all).

The text you post here raises great questions. My issue with it is that it has many holes in it, that take the argument that it is making to the point that it may not be credible. Let me just take some of those passages and tell you why I say this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This ministry is now receiving many enquiries, often from pastors, over the matter of the confusion being generated in the church regarding the introduction of Deut. 24:1-4 into New Testament Christianity. Lying practically undisturbed since Jesus put it to rest 2000 years ago, it is just now being repackaged by the
enemies of reformation as a new emergent defense against the restoration of historic Biblical marriage, divorce and remarriage theology.

I was at first incredulous that parts of the church would get so upside-down
that some hauled out and dusted off Moses' allowance for sin, and regulations to
administer disobedience in the nation's civil code, as a means to stop repentant restoration of
prodigal spouses to their Christian families. I am unconcerned no more. A whole new twisted theology is being introduced into the church in order to preserve the adulterous remarriages condemned by God, while declaring those actually made by Him as being "ungodly." The extent of the momentum this wicked doctrine is spreading is
breathtaking. May God have mercy on our souls.<hr /></blockquote>I too fell into this during the my wife's affair. I wanted very much to believe in the thought that until my wife was physically dead, I was still married to her. But, it has taken a lot of prayer, and Godly counsel, to see that God does allow that bond to break...that marriages do end...that remarriage is allowed in certain circumstances. As I outlined above, God does give provision to the widow. He states that the marriage bond is broken upon death...and she (or he) is free to remarry, only in the Lord. but if we take the original text, in the original language, the word death has a duel meaning. It is the same word used in Genesis when God says that Adam and Eve died in the garden. Did they physically die? No. Not right away anyway. But it said that when they ate the fruit, they would die. And they did die. Spiritually. They were cut off immediately from God. Thus is the meaning of the word "death" when God states that the marriage bond is until death do we part.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The question I have for us missionaries who work to evangelize and reform
the western church is this: "How do we answer the deceivers who now misuse it to avoid
repenting and turning away from their own remarriage sin, and those of their flock, or
more sinister still, using it to stop abandoned wives and husbands and their children from praying and trusting God for the restoration of their families after an affair, a quickie
divorce followed by a church blessed but God cursed adulterous remarriage?
It is obvious in such cases that the church is going to stand behind and support the
sinners instead of the righteous. <hr /></blockquote>Please dont get me started with the mess many churches are making out there. that part of this passage is absolutely correct. But the part about divorce and remarriage is couched in this new theology that says "If you divorced your spouse, even for marital unfaithfulness, you are still married to them. So when you remarry, then it isnt a real marriage. Andthat if you want to get right in God's eyes, then you must immediately leave you current spouse (and any kids you have with them) and go back to your first husband or wife. I believed this for awhile. I truly did. But over the last year, I have prayed and studied and many have helped to show me that this is wrong.

In Matthew, Jesus states that we can divorce for marital unfaithfulness. I have already shown that adultery, and unrepentence for it, is grounds for a person to be declared dead. And Romans says that upon death (physical or spiritual) that we are free to remarry, only in the Lord. Again, I believe that many (like I said, I was guilty of this also) are not taking the full word into context here. Like I said in my last post to ADGirl, take every passage out of the Bible concerning divorce, marriage, remarriage, sin and repentence. Lay them side by side and read them. And then we will see God's true plan for marriage, divorce and remarriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This heresy or something like it should have been expected in this fight for
hearts and minds. The verse "My people perish because of lack of knowledge," comes to
mind, as well as "Woe to those who call good bad, and bad good." It is hard to
believe that "Christian leaders" would dare stand in front of Jesus Christ and His most
wounded children and mimic the words of the Pharisees to justify divorce and remarriage. Let
's look at the verses in Question. Deut: 24:1-4

"Suppose a man marries a woman but later discovers something about her that is shameful. So he writes her a letter of divorce, gives it to her, and sends her away. If she then leaves and marries another man and the second husband also divorces her or dies, the former husband may not marry her again, for she has been defiled. That would be detestable to the Lord. You must not bring guilt upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as a special possession."

God Himself referred to that passage in Jeremiah 3:1 then divorced Israel inverse 8.

Next, divorced Israel took other Gods in verse 9. God then proceeded to break the Moses civil code by calling Israel back in verse 14 when he called out to her:

" Return faithless people," declares the Lord "for I am your husband." Jesus himself overrode Deut 24: 1-4 in both Matthew and Mark because of those using it to legalize their adultery in His day. He explained that it was put there by Moses, not God, to regulate sinful men. God's standards from the beginning were far
different from Moses', and Jesus pointed out the difference. He then overturned it by saying:
"But, I say unto you...", restoring the marriage law God had originally commanded but Israel had
corrupted. Jesus did not take ownership of that piece written by Moses any more than God did
in Jeremiah. <hr /></blockquote>So much of this is true! God hates divorce. His plan is ALWAYS for the family and biblical marriage. But interstingly, this passage above quotes Jesus in sayin "But I say to you..." Well, what did He say? He said that we commit adultery if we divorce our spouse for any other reason BUT marital unfaithfulness. And as I've shown here, marital unfaithfulness, and lack of repentence thereof, begets death (spiritual). And death begets the ability of the spouses to remarry, because death breaks the bonds of marriage. Always!

Here is some marriage Algebra for you:

Sex with someone not our spouse = adultery</li>
an unbiblical divorce = adultery</li>
Adultery + unrepentence = death</li>
Death = breaking of marital bonds</li>
Breaking of marital bonds = free to remarry, only in the Lord</li>

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hear this: God has not reinstated Jewish civil law today just so that a man who has stolen another man's wife; or a woman who has seduced a husband away from his wife and children; who had some replacement hocus-pocus sacrilegious ceremony performed by a disobedient priest or pastor; leaving abandoned husbands wives and children without His blessing and His help. If you have any doubt read Malachi 2:7-8 and 2:1-18:<hr /></blockquote>All true. So very true. But we are talking about more with Georgie here. She has remarried. Deut 24 says God finds detestable her divorcing and remarrying her first husband. Why is that? Why is it detestable? And, now that we are under the New Covenant, does God no longer find that detestable? I doubt it. I can find no where that He has changed His mind on His feelings about that.
The rest of the passage goes on to keep pushing its point. It says again that Jesus said "But I say unto you..." And I continue to say...what did He say? He said all that was posted here about their hard hearts, and that God's idea of marriage is so much different. but then He gives a consession. He allows (permits) divorce for marital unfaithfulness.

The passage you found is correct...we are no longer under the law. We arent even under the 10 Commandments anymore. Not Christians. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it says three times in 1st Corinthians that all things are lawful for a believer. We can commit murder, and still end up in heaven. Of course, commiting the murder may be an indication that we were never really saved...but that is for God to sort out.

But Jesus is the fulfillment of the law...all of it. The reason we are no longer under the law is that the fulfillment of the law lives within us. In the person of the Holy Spirit. Thus, we obey the laws of old...because that is what Jesus always has done and will always do. By being a Christian, and following Christ, we obey all of the laws...because we are guided to do so by the one who never broke any of them.

In the end, Christianity is not a list of rules, or being good...it is about a relationship with a living person...Jesus. And because NONE of us are good (even on our best days, our works are but filthy rags to God), our relationship with the one that is ALWAYS good, is what holds us to fulfilling the laws ourselves. That is why I have written over and over to Georgie that she must keep her eyes on Jesus.

So, I hope that this clarifies some things. I too believed many of these things that was posted. But thru study, prayer, instruction, etc I have come to find out that the argument that the bond of marriage is never broken is just not correct. And that once married, there is never conditions for a biblical remarriage. The physical death of a spouse is cause to be biblically remarried. If the spouse who leaves is an unbeliever, then the remaining spouse is free to remarry (but if the unbeliever wants to stay, then we must also stay). If a spouse commits adultery and will not repent (turn from their evil ways), then the BS is free to divorce, as per Jesus' own words. And if he/she is free to divorce, then they are free to remarry.

If two people are just tired of each other and want to divorce, then it is tru...there is no divorce (even if the court signs one). So, they leave STILL MARRIED! But as soon as they have sex with someone else, then they have committed adultery. And now, we are back to square one in the fact that adultery +unrepentence = death. And death ALWAYS gives the remaining spouse the breaking of the bonds of marriage, and the freedom to remarry.

In His arms.

NewBranch,

You bring up a part of what was posted by 2ofakind, that I forgot to mention.

God divorces Israel. And Israel is later brought back to God...remarried so to speak. So, God does want reconciliation and remarriage. But...Israel had other lovers (gods). They never "married" these other gods. They just ran around in spiritual adultery.

An example? Well, Hosea that you bring up is a great one. Gomer is a prostitute. Hosea is told by God to marry her. Did Hosea and Gomer EVER get a divorce? Maybe. I am not quite sure due to the text. But it doesnt matter. Gomer goes runnign around, I believe for 10 years, with other lovers. Committing adultery. But does she ever remarry? Not that I can find.

So, Hosea bringing her home does not violate Deut 24, because neither of them had remarried.

In His arms.

This is an interesting discussion, as it always is, the ebb and flo or various agendas...but the fact is, no one knows what God's will is for anyone other than themself (and that is hard to determine as well). What gets lost in the various interpretive rhetoric is real life, this isn't a game, it is out lives... to try an live them by some kind of legalistic rules will always fail, because no set of rules can take into account what is needed for our psychological health. The school of thought that promotes marital absolutism (the idea one remains "married" to the first person they keep house with) is fatally flawed because not only do we have this conflicting doctrine about adultery (and the fact adultery does not even have to be physical, just intent alone is enough to be "guilty")...but we have huge logical fallacies too...such as marrying someone and having them then reveal they are a homosexual and have no intention of a physical relationship (yep, does happeen)...or marrying someone and finding out they are a psycho/sociopath, or marrying someone and finding out they are violent and will beat you (and murder you, as often happens), or marrying someone only to realize they are an alcoholic, drug addict...whatever....so in all these cases you are MARRIED to them FOREVER....Nah, don't think so...That is a ridgid self-serving interpretation of God's will regarding marriage, to promote the controlling agenda of those who seek to use religion to exert power over others.

IMO it is clear in the context of Christianity, and what is said about marriage in the Bible, that it is a living breathing thing, created by the capacity and intent (two things often missing in so-called marriages) of two individuals to live in a particular psychological state, and has to meet certain criteria of health, and well-being...and we are empowered to assess the circumstances of our lives, and if we discern the marriage is not a safe place, we can (and should) leave it. The catholic church recognizes this through it's granting of annulments...the idea being the marriage never actually took place...which brings me the next issue, there are no definitive explanations for the underlying assumptions....for example

1. What is marriage anyways, if a "legal" document for divorce means nothing, then a legal document for marriage means nothing also...cause the state has no power to address ones marital condition, only to reflect what you say it is, and administer contract law in said regard.

So when are you married, how do we know that, how is marriage different than cohabitation...and please, if anyone tackles this, don't mumble something about saying some words, that is easily demonstrated as nonsensical by itself, there has to be other observable and measureable conditions validateing this state. I have yet to meet anyone who can categorically define when marriage has actually occured.

Just one "for instance" for the doubting Thomases. People often choose to live together, stating to each other it is ok cause we are in love and going to get married (when we got the money, out of school, whatever) so they voluntarily enter a marital state, just haven't "legalized" it, are they married? I dunno, they could be by some standards, most would say no, they can part company anytime and "remarry" someone else. I could posit many more ambiguous scenarios...but the point is we are arguing from a point where one is "married" and has x y z choices, but we have not defined marriage. In many cases IMO, it is spiritually accurate to conclude you are not married (ie oneflesh) at all...but instead are cohabitateing, because whatever the very real conditions of marriage are (and no one actually knows, but I assume they exist) they have not been met.

2. Another perplexing issue is what about non-Christians. No doubt (despite my please above) someone is going to quote "vows" back at me. Ok, let's go with that, so an atheist marriage occurs (no spiritual vows I assume), are they married? For that matter can anyone who is not a Christian marry at all? What are the criteria? How do we know they are married?

3. Ok, pragmatic question....so we have literally millions of 2nd marriages, blended families, many with children from the new union...what are they...bastar*s? And what does that mean anyways? Are these millions of people all committing adultery? Does God abandon them, and abhor their marriages?

So let me get this straight...some young person buys into the mask presented to them by a pursuer, and marries them. Comes to find it is a horrible enviroment, and leaves....now they are doomed to remain childless, celibate, and terribly alone the rest of their lives? I don't think so.

The bottom line IMO (and from observation) is people are going to do whatever they want anyways....but hopefully what they want comes from a healthy understanding of themself, and what works right, that means not only understanding their spiritual beliefs, but also understanding human psychology, and that it is ok to discern that a particular union is not a safe healthy place to attempt the particular degree of intimacy and nurturing that most of us think of when we use the word "marriage".

This subject is staying on my mind as well.

The Chapter in my Bible study this week was the Minisitry of Condemnation and though remarriage was not specifically addressed, living under the Law certainly was--maybe I should read ahead <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

What about the Law?

Galatians 3:1-3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Matthew 5:27,28 You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Galatians 3:23,24 Before this faith came, we were held prisoner by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now now condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law...have fallen away from grace.

So, how are we to live?

Matthew 11:28-30 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Most Christians eat shellfish and pork, most of us worship on Sunday, not the real sundown Friday to sundown Saturday Sabbath (a stoning offense), plus we do "work" even on the day we've chosen as our Sabbath...as far as law goes, we have not kept those points, so we have failed at all points.

Is remarriage to a former spouse qualitatively different in terms breaking law?

We can say what we will, but the fact remains Georgie divorced, remarried, is still legally and morally in that marriage, and is considering remarrying her first H. This is disobedience according to the Scripture and illegal in our country. My personal feelings are just that, my feelings. As Christians, we have to constantly beat down the flesh and live according to the Word. Yes, that is hard. Yes, we have many questions. Yes, we at times become disenchanted because we want what we know is forbidden.

I relate this to my situation. My W abandoned me 6 months ago and last month filed for D. My calling as a Christian H is to contest the D petition, which I have. Yes, I'm very hurt. Yes, I cry. Yes, I'm lonely. Yes, I battle emotional turmoil. The fact remains that I am still married.

If she decides to stay separate from me forever, and if the D is not granted, I am bound to her for life. I realize this as fact and I am reconciling myself to the understanding that I will not be free to remarry. Does this hurt? You betcha!

But guess what? I am pressing in to Jesus, His Word, my support and accountability network, and staying active. And guess what else? I am at peace and I know I am in the will of God. How do I know? Because the Word says so and brings me comfort and encouragement. Do I like my circumstances? Of course not! For the first time in my life I have no choice but to lean totally on Jesus, and I am growing in my faith and ministry.

When my W comes back, if she does, our M will be strong and a light for others. If she doesn't, I will be strong and a light for others.

If I may be so bold ... when you're debating points of law from the Old Testament, your best bet is not your local pastor.

Go see a rabbi instead.

They've got two or three thousand more years of thinking about the Old Testament available to them than Christians do.

In addition, there is a HUGE body of scholarly and legal resesarch in rabbinic studies and traditions. You wanna see people tied in knots? Watch a bunch of rabbis dissect a passage eight different ways with eight different interpretations. It's amazing. For a really good view into the DAILY life of many Orthodox Jews who are studying, read _The Chosen_ by Chaim Potok. Now show me a Christian pastor who's put that much time into thinking about this stuff.

My (VERY superficial) understanding is that the Old Testament states pretty adamantly that a man can divorce his wife for just about any reason at all. "Displeasing" covers a huge amount of ground.

I have one very knowledgeable Orthodox friend who I'll ask about this. Dunno whether he'll have anything particularly useful to say, but if he does, I'll post it here.

And having said all of that, since y'all ARE Christians, that's not all the research to be done, since there's a whole additional body of stuff in the NT that you have to take into account.

Ahh, the joys of religious law...

Well ,this is true to an extent. but ask yourself a question. If Matthew 5:32 & Matthew 19:9 say that a BS can divorce their WS due to marital unfaithfulness (which it does), then how does that jive with Rmans 7:1-, which states that a woman (or man) is bound to their husband as long as he lives? Jesus would be saying then that there is an exception. That Romans 7 is wrong...that she isnt bound to her husband as long as he lives, IF marital unfaithfulness is the cause.

Romans 7 is not wrong. But My husband ended our marriage when he unrepentently committed adultery, had OC, and kept his porn addiction a secret. That means our marriage is dead. Bad company corrupts good character. You can't make someone stay who doesnt want to stay, and you can't live in a legalistic manner where you are punished your whole life because you married someone who did not want to be married.
We were not members of a church at the time so I could not practice church discipline, but the Bible never says that I had to to be divorced. If an unbeliever leaves, let him. By all accounts my ex is an unbeliever.

Mortarman, I didnt' realize someone had posted, obviously at same time I was writing today,in regards to Hosea because they're post got in frist. LOL
I'm not sure either on divorce of Hosea, I believe not though.
However, adultery is considered to break the marriage bond in the OT I believe. Would need to research, but I remember once in an online study that was brought up. And I can't find scripture now to prove it. That indeed, adultery is considered the breaking of the marriage, same as if one had divorced. yet, by law we must now produce a piece of paper decreeing it finalized!
Obviously, this is an issue that can take many turns, debates, etc.
So what is the difference if Georgie divorces H now, and marries someone else?
I think this is totally coming down to forgiveness. She can't stay married to an abuser. Or shouldn't!
I feel there is a much stronger possibility of God blessing her remarriage to her first H than someone else. But, that's an opinion that I can't back by bible verse. I'll ask someone who is very knowledgeable if there is passage on the subject.
Obviously, any Christian knows divorce is supposed to be forbidden except in extenuating circumstances spelled out clearly!
And yes, some religions do believe you are always bound to the first marriage. I once saw a young man struggle with this in terrible pain because his young wife left him and he never wanted to divorce. She did! He would have spent the rest of his life, from early 20's on single if God wouldn't forgive and allow him to remarry. He was studying for the ministry at time.
I also counseled with my pastor on divorce. Of course, it was allowed due to H adultery. I also ask about forgiveness as this is our second marriage each.
The consensus of two or more in our church (Baptist) were that we can get forgiveness, and blessings on a second marriage.
This has always bothered me even though this marriage has, for the most part, been the happiest time of my life.
I just believe if you get divorced and you are going to remarry, why not the first spouse?
It's 6 of one and half dozen of other. God has no boundry in forgiveness except for blasphemy which is the unforgivable sin. According to my bible!
Georgie, give it to God, pray on it and just allow him to guide you! What other conselor can give you that best advice? NONE
LouLou
LouLou

JustJ, you mentioned seeing a Rabbi for OT laws. The problem for Christians there is Rabbi's do not believe in the NT. Am I not right? Since they do not believe Jesus is the true son of God and practicing Jews are still awaiting his first arrival? No insult intended, please. Just my understanding.
True, Rabbi would certainly know the complete OT laws. No argument there at all!
But I think NT has to be applied for the Christian.
Romans given my the other here is good. Sorry, so many I've read here I didn't remember your name ? But thank you for your post on Romans.
LouLou

Interesting discussion to be sure.

In Deuteronomy it also talks about stoning adulterers to death... we know how Christ dealt with that one.

Let me chew on this one a bit and share your response with some friends Mort... To be clear - I have no problem with you whatsoever nor do I have any doubts about your intentions. Something in me is screaming very loudly that God did not intend to block a case like this where the family can be together and whole once again - so the message I am getting is "Go study and keep working through this conflict!".

Just so's ya don't mistake my intent as questioning yours... I know you want to see a way arounf this one too. Have a few good friends beating the bushes for me looking into this. Good group project for a bunch of christians who think too much.

God Bless,
2.

Georgie,
I didn't make it through every post on this thread, so forgive me if I am repetitive. Also it is possible that I missed mention of another scripture that contradicts this interpretation. But regarding

Deut 24:1-4

24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,

2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man,

3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies,

4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

It seems to be that this does not apply to Georgie. Georgie divorced her first husband because of his adultery (regardless of who actually filed) which according to certain scriptures is allowed. Her husband did not "send her from his house", he left. This passage is about a faithful husband who is abiding by the marriage covenant and who finds something "indecent" about his wife and sends her away. That is not Georgie's situation.

In the case of Georgie's second marriage, it is similar- the description does not apply to her. Again, she is the one divorcing her second husband for abuse. While adultery has not been confirmed, although probable, this abusive husband has not been faithful to his marriage vows to "love, honor and cherish" Georgie. Furthermore, him not coming home at night could be considered as proof of adultery since he has forsaken the marriage bed. So again, Georgie was not sent from the house because her husband disliked her.

So Deut in effect is talking about a different woman than in Georgie's case. note the scripture says that the man divorces the wife because he finds her displeasing because of indecent behavior.
It is not simply saying that the man can find the wife displeasing for any reason- (ie. gained weight and was no longer attractive, lost her teeth or whatever). She has to have been indecent. Georgie has not been indecent. Her husbands did not send her from the house. She divorced them for adultery.

Deut. seems to be set up to prevent a man from making a mistake twice. It is saying that an indecent woman can not continually sin and bamboozle a man over and over again. For example, a situation where the woman marries, sins in the marriage, and is thrown out, marries again, continues to sin, and is thrown out- well that woman is not allowed to go back to husband #1 and rope him into her games again.

Note: that Deut does not mention for example a woman who is divorced by her husband for indecency, remarries and she has to divorce hubby #2 because he is adulterous. Presumably in that case, because hubby #2 did not divorce her, or die, she could remarry hubby #1.

Deut seems to be very specific in this regard. I feel that it does not apply to Georgie and she need not feel bound by this scripture.

As others have pointed out, there are contradictions in the Bible so even if you did follow the Bible literally it could be difficult to figure out which way to go. I believe that Jesus is about love and that love ultimately must dictate what direction to go in. By love I don't mean the lust frequently called love by OP and WS, but pure, unselfish spiritual love.

Also, as others have pointed out, there are certain Biblical injunctions that we do not follow today because they would be seen as cruel or even illegal. Remember although you may believe the Bible is the word of God it was recorded by humans and as such is open to human interpretation and human error.

I think you are right Georgie to take your time before recommitting to your WH. Since he was the adulterer, you need to make sure that he is committed to recovery. But I see nothing in Deut that forbids your remarriage, you do not fall into its specific situation.

To me it makes sense that you would entertain forgiving your adulterous husband.

[ October 03, 2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]

Hi Georgie,

Your thread has grown into a monster in it's old age.

Okay, I really have an issue with what we see in Deut. on this one. So I have been asking around.

A dear friend of mine is friends with Dave Carder (Author of Torn Asunder). I will post that exchange in a moment.

Mortarman, in Deuteronomy the idea of stoning adulterers to death is also pretty popular, remember? Christ did make it abundantly clear in discussions with the Pharises et al that 'the law' of the Old Testament is secondary to Grace.

Jesus picked up his mat and healed someone on the Sabbath - Whoops - against the law.

Another thing that is very clear in the old testament is that the laws, as written, were oftentimes tainted by man's biases. Blasphemy? No, How many misconceptions and abuses of the Word did Christ set folks straight on? In Deut. you should keep in mind that societal factors contribute to what is said.

One thing I had not considered in this question is what was going on when this was written? Dave Carder offered some interesting ideas on that - STD's were rampant and the whole divorce/remarriage/remarry first spouse issue would lead to extremely complex inheritence issue s and blood feuds - common at the time.

So anyway, I am reasonably well satisfied that what God most wants to see is happy, whole marriages and children being raised by thier parents in a Christian home. I certainly cannot believe that God would consider Georgie defiled or unclean due to the fact that she remarried. Althought the OT is silent on having the snot beat out of you as grounds for divorce, I am equally sure that God would not want anyone to endure that. I believe that falls under the category entitled "Duh... do I have to spell EVERYTHING out?".

At any rate Georgie, I am sure that prayer and time will answer this for you according to His plan. From all you have described I do not see your crime. Perhaps it comes down to one's personal relationship with Him - for myself, that relationship has yet to be nything but infinitely patient and kind as I struggle to get it right.

If interested, here is the email my friend sent to Dave Carder and the reply he got back, edited slightly to exchange my friend's name for his MB handle.

Adoremywife,
I think you have developed a great reply. You can't stretch the OT to
cover all of the contingencies we currently run across. I think most OT
scholars would also suggest that behind
the restriction was the prevention of STD's (which were rampant in the
area at the time) and the protection of the family and children's
inheritance (including the land the family lived
on). Furthermore, as we constantly experience in our day and age, these
kinds of issues are very difficult to resolve with a sense of fairness
for all parties, and I think the OT was
attempting to prevent the marital practices of the pagan cultures that
often resulted in family feuds and vindictive murder (just like still
happens in some Near Eastern cultures today).
Dave

Okay, that reply doesn't make sense without my friend AdoreMywife's message which was:

Well I was basically believe that we are released from some of
the law because grace supersedes it. For instance, we are not in the
habit of stoning adulterers
anymore - thank God. But I read this passage myself and was a bit
confused as to why God was so adamant about not remarrying after a
second marriage.
Obviously some one in this situation (above) messed up morally
and there are significant consequences in life. One or both of these
people, sought out a divorce
against God's will and at least one of them committed adultery in
doing so. However, in Christ all things are possible, including
forgiveness at a very deep level. In
John 8, Jesus forgives the adulteress while rebuking her to not
live in sin anymore.

My gut feeling is that God would honor two people in this
situation to restore their original marriage and to work toward being
strong supportive parents of their
children. The Bible seems to be fairly silent on the issues of
divorce in the case of abuse or abandonment. I'm well acquainted with
the passages on divorce in the
Gospels, Malachi and the spirit of God's forgiveness in the story
of Hosea, but I'm at a loss on how to answer this person's question from
a Biblical standpoint.
Any ideas where to look or answers to give?

Thanks for any time you might spend considering this. Sincerely

This is one that I just can't let go of easily Georgie. The God that I know does not punish people like you, he is a god of mercy and understanding and compassion. What could honor God more than for your original marriage to be restored in a truly Christian fashion with your children witnessing that?

I never have, nor will I ever believe that God does stupid things just because they are writtten down somewhere. Those are human emotionas and failings - He doesn't do that.

If those words in Deut. had come from Christ's lips? Then I'd say "Well, yer outta luck", However, Christ CLEARLY dismisses many 'law-based' traditions in the NT, does he not (that whole he who is without sin pickup the first stone???)

For those who believe that every word of the Bible, OT or NT is 100% Divinely inspired I won't argue with you - but if we start from that position is it not completely logical to assume that whatever was said LATER takes precedence over what was said in Moses' time?

Or, to put it as simply as I can - If The old Testament had everything right, there was no need for a sequel.

Georgie, Pray and your answer will come - Grace and Love overcome the law with Christ.

2.

If we were to try to follow OT law, then a man can divorce his wife for simply burning the meal!And all he had to do was publicly denounce her as his wife!
OT law went out with the appearing of Christ to fulfill the law. Thus, such as animal sacrifice no longer was needed. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.
I believe much was changed and NT to be the present day laws, as the old laws were in somewhat barbarically carried out in a way I don't think God meant them to be. I firmly believe man expounded on the OT laws God had given. And it's shown throughout the bible.
If OT was perfect, we'd not have had God sacrificing his son to save the world from it's sins!
I believe there is too much bouncing back and forth between OT and NT today. I know OT holds prophecies we need to know of. Tied in with books in NT as well.
But the laws there are not for us.
LouLou

Georgie – I have been reading your thread and thinking about your situation and the opinions that you have been receiving. I generally "hang out" on the Recovery Board, so if you are interested in learning more about who I am you can read a little bit over on that board. Perhaps you wouldn’t mind “one more opinion” from a fellow Christian being thrown in to the mix for you to consider.

First a few general comments and thoughts.

Please remember that it is YOUR walk with Christ that God is most interested in. Not mine or anyone else’s. We are to become more Christ-like in our lives as we humbly submit our lives to our Lord and Sovereign. Remember, it is God who IS sovereign, not us. We have to be very careful to NOT become as the Pharisees, seeking from over substance, and twisting God’s truths for our own benefit.

Georgie, there are obviously several issues that need to be addressed with your situation, and your potential desire to reunite with husband #1.

I am not sure which of the issues I would rank as number 1, 2, 3…. etc., so I’ll try to keep it simple.

First is your relationship with God.

Georgie, you, me and everyone else on the planet are a sinner. Some, through Christ, are saved from eternal damnation, and some are not. But in the case of Christians we are all saved by God’s GRACE alone. It is a GIFT of God so that no one can boast they are “better and more worthy” than the rest of us.

We live in a fallen, sinful body and will fight sin until we die. It is in our nature and it is only our soul that has been saved. We will eventually be given a new and incorruptible body, but not during our present life on earth. So the war between sin and God, fleshly nature and a Spirit controlled life wages on. We have been told quite clearly that trials and temptations, difficulties and struggles, WILL come into our lives, especially since Satan seeks to destroy the relationship and the witness of all who love God. More often than not, we are the source of our own unhappiness by choosing our own desires and following our own emotions instead of submitting all to God in humble obedience to His commands and teaching. Therein lays the dilemma you are facing with respect to God’s commands and teaching regarding the covenant of marriage.

We live, unfortunately, in a society that places far too little emphasis on the sanctity and seriousness of the marriage covenant. This was the first covenant that God established with Man and God does not break His covenants…we do.

But before I go much further I want to interject a brief comment that I think is vital to this discussion and to all discussions about topics that are not totally revealed by God. We must be very careful to not project our interpretations AS IF it is God speaking. Unless we were to have a personal visit from God (not going to happen as Jesus told us that we have the OT prophets and closed His direct communication with the Apostles) then we have to look at Scripture in it’s entirety and defer to God when it is not clearly revealed. In those cases, we come back to what WE personally believe is a sin. For example, I may see nothing wrong with a cigarette or an occasional alcoholic beverage. But my “brother in Christ” might consider them to be sinful behavior. Therefore, I would NOT smoke or drink in his presence out of respect for his beliefs and not wanting to “flaunt” my “understanding” as being better than his.

So in marriage we are dealing with some “absolutes” that God has clearly revealed and some “wiggle room” that Christ has given us.

This leads us to the second point. You have entered into a covenant of marriage not just once, but twice. If there is to be any “wiggle room” for you, it must be based on Scripture and not societal “norms” or “political correctness”.

So a brief review before proceeding. Husband #1 committed adultery and you divorced him. According to Christ, that IS and WAS your right. It is not to be the “first choice”, but it is your right because God knows the seriousness and pain of adultery. It is primarily a choice to be implemented with an unrepentant spouse to protect you from further pain and to protect your walk with God. God established in such a case that YOU would not be guilty of adultery if you were to marry someone else following such a divorce. But we are also admonished that if we do marry again, we are to marry a believer who is a Christian and submitted to God, not merely professing to be a Christian, or an outright unbeliever.

Husband #2 was obviously violent and abusive from the beginning. As soon as he got the marriage license, he seemed to view it as a valid “hunting license” with you as prey. Now I’m not sure if you “overlooked” these violent tendencies prior to the marriage, perhaps because you felt the desire and the need to be married, but regardless, Husband #2 had entered a marital COVENANT with you and God. The “fruits of the spirit”, the “role of the husband” is clearly revealed in Scripture. Husband #2’s behavior leads me to believe that, despite his academic credentials and knowledge, he had no “Heart Knowledge” of God and Christ. Satan himself has all the “head knowledge”, but he, like Husband #2, will not submit his life to God. Hence, I don’t think, and you would need to ask yourself, that Husband #2 was ever a true Christian. He appropriated the “title”, but his actions spoke louder than anything and did NOT reflect a life that had been submitted to God and was walking in humble obedience. No, he felt you “owed” him. He felt he “owned” you. He felt it was “okay” to beat and hurt the one we love. Does any of this sound Christ-like to you, or to anyone else who claims the name of Christ?

Georgie, there are many who claim to be Christians but who are not. In your case, I don’t believe that Husband #2 is, or was, a true Christian. So, that still does not negate the Covenant of marriage because Scripture does also talk about what should be done when we choose to disobey God’s direction to marry a fellow believer and marry an unbeliever, or become “unevenly yoked” in marriage. So regardless of Husband #2’s spiritual status, he IS your legal husband according to God’s revealed will in Scripture.

That leaves us with what he did and whether or not it “fulfills” the status of “marital unfaithfulness” or adultery if you will. So let’s first begin with something simple and basic before we move on to the more complex issues. Scripture clearly reveals that anyone commits adultery when they look on someone other than their spouse with lust. If that is true, then the “covenant” of marriage is broken by the “offender” at that point. The covenant is reestablished by confession to God and repentance of the sin, followed by a renewed commitment to be obedient to God and to the marriage covenant. So if the repentance does NOT occur, it can lead to active involvement in what we term an “affair”, be it emotional and/or physical. In any case, when faced with unrepentance on the part of the sinner, the spouse has the right according to Jesus to divorce and be free from the potential sin of adultery should they later enter into a marriage with someone.

Also, with respect to “marital unfaithfulness”, remember that this is a Covenant relationship. A covenant is with God and with each other in the case of marriage. The sin is first and most importantly against God. We, as Christians, are the “bride of Christ”. We are also “married” to Christ and it is Christ who models how we are to behave in a marriage. In short, we (and I am speaking to husbands to here) are to be willing and ready to lay down our lives to protect and save our wives should it come to that. We are to follow the Scriptural directions, for example in 1 Cor. 13. To break these commitments is to be “unfaithful” to our spouse every bit as much as sexual infidelity.

In Old Testament days, the people considered women to be “property”. Many of the rules were put in place with that idea in mind. It was to protect “property” rights. But that is NOT what God intended when He established the Covenant of Marriage with Adam and Eve. Eve was created from a rib to be a “part” of Man, to be at Man’s side and not above or below Man. God established roles for each to willingly submit to and to choose to do because they love their spouse and because God said that is the way it was to be as a consequence of the Fall. We are to be “completers” of each other. We, through marriage, reestablish the mystery of “one flesh”; we become “one person” in marriage.

But understand that God KNOWS our sinful nature. He knows the evil that resides within each one of us. He knows the struggle that we face and the power of sin. It is, I believe, one of the reasons we are give various passages to help “overcome” the lure of sin in our lives and the power of our own emotions to deceive us. I think of Philippians 4:13 most often when I think of this struggle. Our own power is so limited, yet God makes available to us unlimited power if only we will access it through a submitted life to Christ. “Faith without works is dead” does not mean that someone who doesn’t actively engage in what society would recognize as “work”. It can encompass those things that we recognize as work (i.e. missions, evangelism, etc.), certainly, but salvation is a Gift and not earned in any way. The “works” spoken of are a natural out flowing of the love and thankfulness for God and what Christ did on our behalf. We become “new creations” able to resist evil through “working” to become more Christ-like in our daily lives. One of the works that should flow is how we protect and love our spouse. How we submit our desires, if necessary, to Christ’s example of “not my will, but Thy will be done.” It also encompasses God’s directions to forgive a repentant sinner. “Love means never having to say you’re sorry” is directly opposite of biblical teaching. It is self-centered, worldly, and another of Satan’s many lies that try to twist the truth of God. The truth is that when we do sin, we are to repent and seek forgiveness (i.e. saying “I’m sorry”) and that God is faithful to forgive us. We do the same with others who we may also have sinned against. Their response should also mirror God’s response, forgiveness and “go and sin no more”.

Georgie, there IS only ONE unforgivable sin and Christ clearly defined it as “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.” If what Christ has said is true, then all the arguments against remarriage as somehow committing an “unforgivable sin” are false. It may NOT be the best scenario and there may be consequences, but all other sins are forgivable by God. We may have to live with the consequences that sin may have brought into our lives, but when God forgives, He forgives totally and washes us totally clean. We are spotless before God. Man may choose to “wag a finger” at us, but in the final analysis, it is not what Man thinks, it is what God thinks and sees. HE sees us as a "new and sinless person" washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Now, before anyone wants to possibly jump up and down about “abusing Christian liberty”, that is not what I am talking about. I am NOT saying to willfully sin so that “grace can abound”.

Remember that we live today, by the grace of God and sacrifice of Christ, in the Age of Grace. Were it not for that fact, all of the WS’s that we know of on MB would have been stoned to death, because that was the “law” that was established. Christ came to fulfill and to abolish the law. It is not through our efforts or our actions that we are saved, or made “clean” in God’s sight. This serious consequence of adultery was pointing toward the seriousness of our choice to become a “bride of Christ”. Either we do it God’s way, or our penalty is painful, eternal, death. One cannot be faithful to Christ and still serve self or Satan above God. “This is the new commandment that I give you, love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself.” On these two hang all the law. They take precedence over all the other laws and without them the other laws cannot succeed or exist.

So, where does that leave Georgie, as a woman seeking to be obedient to God?

This is my opinion, Georgie. Others are free to disagree, but I believe it is based on the principle of God’s love, of loving and trusting God “to work all things for our good” for those who trust Him. Georgie, I believe that your Husband #2, from all that you have written, is guilty of marital unfaithfulness. He is unrepentant, and probably never was a true Christian to begin with. You have the right to divorce him, just as you had the right to divorce Husband #2. God has reserved that right to you as the “betrayed spouse”. Such a decision is NOT to be taken lightly. It is the “last step” in how we are to deal with sin in general and marital unfaithfulness in specific.

I am going to assume for a moment that you proceed and become divorced from Husband #2. If that occurs, then you are free to marry again, but only should do so according to the clear direction of Scripture. This is where you may have a problem that still remains with Husband #1. If Husband number 1 is NOT a born-again Christian, you are NOT to marry him anymore than you are to marry ANY unbeliever. I fully understand your desires and the desires of your children, but you must follow God FIRST. You must model to your children and teach your children about God and His commands. You have “life lessons” that you can teach them to show the consequences of being disobedient to God. But you can also show them how God is faithful to those who love Him and walk in obedience to Him.

If your Husband #1 is now a believer, then you should still proceed with caution, especially with respect to marriage. God is NOT a God of allowing us unlimited options to do whatever we want. The covenant of marriage is SERIOUS business. If you are to remarry, then you must understand the covenant nature of marriage and it must be with a fellow believer who is committed to living a submitted life to God. So there should be no “rushing into marriage”. You must take the time to fully discuss things. To fully see the changes that should be there in someone who has truly accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Husband #1 already went the route of adultery. He chose “poorly”. You need to know for certain that he is truly a “changed” man, or you need to be ready to live life as a single mother. I get the sense that you “want” to be a “married woman”. That is a God-given desire, but it does not allow you to “marry anyone” just to satisfy your desire. Should marriage ever become an option, it MUST be with a truly born-again Christian. But remember, if Husband #1 has accepted Christ and submitted himself to Christ, then you should see a changed person. It is no longer sufficient for him to merely claim to be a Christian; you are going to have to see outward signs that he has, in fact, become a changed person seeking to become more Christ-like in his entire life.

Georgie, YOU may have suffered as a result of “poor choices”, but remember the order of things is important. God first, family second, everyone else a distant third. While you may have suffered, or are suffering, as result of things, USE this opportunity as a sister in Christ to teach your children with “real life” lessons that the Commandments ALL also contain a Promise from God. We need to choose God and we need to choose to submit our wills and desires to the one who is truly Sovereign.

Seek God’s will. Pray for God’s wisdom in this matter. Test all advice, mine included, against Scripture. Pray for God’s peace in your heart and for strength to follow Him each day. Trust God to handle the future and for His strength in dealing with the issues and problems of each Day. Put the worry about the future into God’s hands and control your actions to focus on how to honor God today. Pray for God’s peace and for God’s timing and will to be revealed to you. Pray for patience as you wait on God and endurance for the trials of each day.

God bless and grant you wisdom and peace.

[ October 04, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]

This is one of the most interesting topics. There are and have been many people who are better at interpreting God's word than me. But there are a few things I wonder about:

The Bible and the Ten Commandments are above all God's undisputable words, directives and commands. We try to understand the why and wherefore of what God wants us to do, but it is not so necessary to understand His word so much as it is to live by it. We as humans cannot hope to understand God's plan. In my opinion, much of the Bible IS common sense. Example:

- Treating others as you want to be treated. Sounds fair to me and I'm happy with that.

- Love you enemies, forgiveness, turning the other cheek. Modern psychology has proven that harboring hatred, bitterness and anger does more damage in the long term to you than it does to the person the anger is directed towards.

- Thou shalt not kill, why? Because killing is wrong. Yet God allows for war and killing when necessary; a season for everthing.

I see a lot in the Bible that addresses health concerns. In a day when there were few medicines and limited treatments and a complete ignorance of germs, microbes, bacteria; there was no understanding how to prevent infections by disease. Follow the Word in the Bible and it was and is a health manual.

In the time of Jesus, men married virgins and supposed to marry for life, but if they didn't work out they could divorce rather than live a miserable life and end up killing one another or committing adultery. Now look at it strictly from a health stand point in regards to venerial disease.

You marry a virgin. She has had no sex with anyone else, so you can't get VD from her and get sick or die.

She commits adultery. Now she has been exposed to anothers microbes. She now carries microbes from another man, since there are no condoms to prevent this. If her husband has sex with her now, he risks getting anything she may have contracted.

God's Law allows him to divorce her. They may never live again as husband and wife because he can get disease from her and die. Since he is clean (hopfully he has not contracted anything before the discover of his WW infidelity) God allows him to remarry. WW is however fouled by the microbes of another. God doesn't allow her to have sex or remarry, because she is non-believer and a health risk now. Maybe she is also stoned to death as a public warning that adultery is against God's law, but this also prevents her from passing any of those microbes on to any other man.

Why aren't adulterous men stoned? I don't have a good answer, but perhaps it seemed that only woman got disease as a result of adultery. In the case of AIDS, a woman is 20 times more likely to be infected by a man than the other way around. Maybe because fluid is transferred to the woman from the man. However, the man increases his chances of getting infected with repeated contact.

Of course a man and wife can forgive, after adultery and stay with each other, accepting the risk of sickness and death if there was disease.

Divorcing without adultery. God allows it but doesn't allow sex or remarriage for either party after the divorce. So you can divorce but there is a VERY HEAVY PRICE to pay. Remarriage and sex after divorce is adultery and forbidden. It's really in the best interest of a H and W to work out their differences, or risk a life of lonliness.

In the case of remarriage to an EX after they have remarried and divorced another. According to God Law, they can't remarry their orginal partners after being married to another because they are now "tainted" by microbes from their second spouse and could carry them to the first
spouse. Plus with all that marriage and divorce, at least one of the two original parties is a non-believer.

ALL THE ABOVE APPLIES TO A MAN IF HE IS THE ADULTERER AND THE WIFE THE BETRAYED SPOUSE.

God tells how Jews should prepare meat for consumption (Kosure or bloodless meat). Again, I suppose, to protect against disease.

Question for me: Now that there are modern medicines and condoms; Do I believe that God's literal word can be redefined. ABSOLUTELY NOT! Until God comes down for Heaven and gives us a revision of his His Laws in person, I will follow His law as it is now. We may know more than people 2000 years ago, but we don't know what God knows and never shall.

Everything I have written is only MOVHO and products of my slightly damaged mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Just my 2 cents worth.

I felt inspired and hope you don't mind,
I wanted to share and leave something behind.
---------------------------------------------

Desperately, helplessly, longingly, I cried.
Quietly, patiently, lovingly God replied.
I pled and I wept for a clue to my fate,
And the Master so gently said, "Child, you must wait!"
"'Wait?', you say, wait!" my indignant reply.
"Lord, I need answers, I need to know why!
Is your hand shortened? Or have you not heard?
By FAITH I have asked, and am claiming your Word.
"My future and all to which I can relate
Hangs in the balance, and you tell me to WAIT?
I'm needing a 'yes,' a go-ahead sign,
Or even a 'no' to which I can resign.
"And Lord, you promised that if we believe
We need but to ask, and we shall receive.
And Lord, I've been asking, and this is my cry:
I'm weary of asking! I need a reply!"
Then quietly, softly, I learned of my fate
As my Master replied once again,” You must wait."
So, I slumped in my chair, defeated and taut
And grumbled to God, "So, I'm waiting . . .for what?"
He seemed then to kneel and His eyes wept with mine,
And he tenderly said, "I could give you a sign.
I could shake the heavens, and darken the sun.
I could raise the dead, and cause mountains to run.
All you seek, I could give, and pleased you would be.
You would have what you want--but you wouldn't know ME.
"You'd not know the depth of my love for each saint;
You'd not know the power that I give to the faint;
You'd not learn to see through the clouds of despair;
You'd not learn to trust just by knowing I'm there;
You'd not know the joy of resting in me
When darkness and silence were all you could see.
"You'd never experience that fullness of love
As the peace of my Spirit descends like a dove;
You'd know that I give and I save . . .(for a start),
But you'd not know the depth of the beat of my heart.
"The glow of my comfort late into the night.
The faith that I give when you walk without sight,
The depth that's beyond getting just what you asked
Of an infinite God, who makes what you have LAST.

"You'd never know, should your pain quickly flee,
What it means that 'My grace is sufficient for thee.
Yes, your dreams for your loved ones overnight would come true,
But, oh, the loss! If I lost what I'm doing in you!
"So, be silent, my child, and in time you will see
THAT THE GREATEST OF GIFTS IS TO GET TO KNOW ME.
And though my answers seem terribly late,
My wisest of answers is still but to WAIT."

Your sister in Christ,
Georgie

Georgie,
Thanks for the beautiful reminder....and the tears I just shed!!
Your sister in Christ,
Adgirl48