I've searched my Bible and am unable to find clear answers to assist me. I am presently in a situation that requires God's guidance before I will know how to proceed.

My husband John left us in June of 1998 for another woman. [This relationship didn't last] After the initial pain of his leaving and realizing I wasn't going to get him back, I made sure to keep as good a relationship with him as possible for our 2 children's sake. I understood how much they needed their father in their lives, no matter what had happened between him and myself. Eventually, after some months, we were able to become friends and for the past few years have maintained this relationship.

During this time, I thought I had met a man that would be able to fill the void left behind by the children's father. All seemed to be right between us in every way. Greg held a pastoral degree and was extremely knowledgeable of the Bible. He treated me well. When he proposed to me, I said yes. Almost a year later, we were married. This marriage was not meant to be as we were together a total of 8 months, with 6 of those months in Christian marriage counselling. The abuse became too much for me to handle, so after a restraining order was given to him, he was ousted from our home. During the last couple of months, there were many nights that Greg did not return home and honestly I was hoping he had found someone else as my fear of him grew. He has been out of our lives since January of 2002.

Now my dilemma lay in the fact that I am still married to this man. The father of my children and I are growing closer once again and want to pursue a relationship leading to remarriage. Surely God would like to see this happen and our children are extremely excited at the prospect of mom and dad getting back together again. I know also that the only way God would condone a divorce would be through adultery. Greg had threatened me on several occasions that if I didn't give him what he wanted; he would find another women who would. Coupled with the fact that he didn't sleep at home on many occasions has led me to believe he followed through with his threats. However, I have no concrete proof of this.

Would God allow me to pursue a divorce from Greg and allow me to remarry John? John and I have both made huge mistakes in our life decisions and have asked forgiveness of each other. I have also been able to forgive Greg for the abuse of myself and my children, although he doesn't know this, as I haven't seen him since the day the police took him away.

Thank-you for any guidance you may give me,
Georgie

I think God delights in bringing families back together.

I can't back my opinion up with scripture, but I'd say divorce Greg and finish raising your children with their dad.

When I was getting remarried the Pastor asked me if there was anyway that my x and I could work things out. I'm not sure about your present marriage but I'm sure God would want you back with your first hubby. That is something you need to get into prayer about and seek advice from your Pastor.

Georgie,

This is the only reference I could find, don't know if it helps or not...talk to your Pastor.

Deut 24:1-4

24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
NIV

Thank-you Lor, Purpleroses and Marie for your responses. All of you made valid statements. I did some further research after posting.

We are living in sinful times and every life is tainted with sin. Sometimes the only choices we have is between two wrongs. Luther, once said, "Sin boldly." He did not mean that we are to flaunt sinful behavior, but that sometimes we have to make the best choice we can and trust that God will forgive us if we are wrong.

I think the church needs to re-examine divorce, why the Bible doesn't mention abuse as grounds for divorce I don't know. [I am NOT one to deviate from what my Bible tells me and am not trying to twist it's words to suit myself!] Perhaps abuse was not as widespread in those days, but certainly abuse is a form of unfaithfulness. Husbands, are to love their wives as their own flesh. Abuse is a violation of the marriage vows. Now scripture advises a divorced woman to remain single or be reconciled to her husband. (1 Cor 7:10-11 RSV) "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband {11} (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) -- and that the husband should not divorce his wife."

[Yeah! I like this scripture much better Marie!]

Now, looking at that passage I think I need to make sure I have repented of my current situation as a bad mistake, and think about what is best for myself and my children. I have 2 choices. I remain single, or be reconciled and reunited with my first husband. If I make the wrong choice, I trust God will forgive me. I've also come to realize that if we do re-unite, I must not rush into it. There are some serious questions to be answered first. Why was he attracted to another woman? Was there something I could have done that would have kept him from wandering? What guarantee do I have that he won't do it again? Can I trust him to be faithful to me?

I believe that through prayer and yes, obtaining guidance from our pastor, we will ultimately be able to make a more informed decision. I like what we've all come up with so far!

Thank-you!
In His Grace,
Georgie

Sounds like you are getting awfully legalistic about it -- and the spirit of the thing isn't there.

All Christians I know deviate from the scripture. Most of them eat pork and shellfish, and even few of the betrayed spouses on here would recommend stoning the OP to death.

I think you're in the clear.

Georgie,

I am normally the big optimist on here, so this is uncharacteristic of me. But I had to weigh in here, because so far, I htink things might be getting a little off base when it comes to Scripture and God's will.

You were given the passage in Deuteronomy above. It spells out very clearly that once divorced, and one or both of you remarry, you are not to remarry your first spouse. it is very clear.

You bring up the passage in 1st Corinthians that talks about separation. But you are not separated. You are divorced from your first husband. And you have remarried. If your husband remarries you, that would be detestable to the Lord.

I know that everyone wants to concentrate on the love of God, and look at little Jesus, meek and mild. But God is very clear about His rules for life. He says in Malachi that he hates divorce. The Creator of this universe and all of us hates something. And what do we do? We do it anyway, looking for excuses and rationalizations. We say "Oh, he is a forgiving God...He will forgive me for this." And He will! But He will wear you out with the consequences.

When we do not live according to God's will (I am talking about Christians here), we will be corrected by God. It is called sin, and we all know about that. That is part of the human behavior. But, when we willfully disobey Him, especially when we have the knowledge of the truth, then that is more than sin...that is rebellion.

If one of your kids throws a baseball in the house and breaks a lamp...that's sin. But, if you are standing right there and tell him not to throw the ball, and he does so anyway...that's something ENTIRELY different. That is rebellion.

I am not beating you up here Georgie. Believe me, I have wanted to turn the Scripture to my advantage in order to put my life on my agenda and so I could be happy again. But guess what? In the end, He is ALWAYS the same. He never changes (Malachi 3:6).

Here are a few Scriptures to think about...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matt. 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,' 5and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When Jesus talks about hard hearts, He is talking about the person who wants to divorce...for ANY reason. Even BSs have hard hearts when it comes to the WS. Remember, God hates divorce...ALL divorce. I nthe middle of my wife's affair, I posted on here that I was looking for God to give me the word that this marriage was over, and that I could move on (since my wife was committing adultery). And I got some very sage advice from that. Know what it was. Someone posted on one of my threads and stated "MM, if you are waiting for God to tell you to divorce your WW, then you will be waiting a LONG time...because He never will." As the Scripture says above...BSs are PERMITTED due to the hardness of our hearts...only when there is marital unfaithfulness (which includes adultery, drunkness, abuse (brawler), etc...I will try to find the passage that covers that and post it shortly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matt. 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "`Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and `love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadly, I see so many Christians (I am guilty of this myself at times) wanting God to rubberstamp our decisions. As Jesus told this guy, the road with Him is very narrow. And sometimes uncomfortable. Many ever lose their lives for Him (martyrs). He never promised us happiness...He promised joy, which is all together different. Even our Declaration of Independence doesnt say we have a right to be happy...just the right to pursue happiness. This man Jesus talked to had the opportunity of a lifetime. To truly walk with Jesus. And he turned away from Jesus and His commandments, because he wouldnt let go of a part of his life. He wouldnt obey in ALL things. And unfortunately, that man got the life he thought he wanted. And completely missed out on the life that Jesus offered...and the joy that came with that.

If we obey, if we follow Him (through His Word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit), we are GUARANTEED joy. Joy is NOT the absence of pain or conflict. When a person is saved, they are no longer bound by sin. we are a new creature. We dont HAVE to sin. We have God within us, in the presence of the Holy Spirit. If we are praying, and walking with Him in all things, then we wont sin. If every decision, every word uttered from our mouths, was first laid before Him for guidance, then we would NEVER sin! The problem is that we just dont get that. Satan distracts us and wears us down. And we begin to believe the lie that it is our sin nature, that we just cant help it...that God will forgive us..go ahead and do it. It is just a little sin. All ofthat is the lie, straight from the pit of Hell.

We are new creatures. I am nolonger "Mortarman," I am "God-within-Mortarman." I am much bigger than anything that Mortarman was or could ever be. I have the power, the strength, the wisom, etc of God within me...and at my disposal. Why on Earth would I rely on my own understanding, on the world's guidance, when I have the Creator's "hardrive" at my disposal, ready at anytime to do a "google-search?" But I do. I am as guilty as anyone. And when I mess things up, it is my own fault. And I can look back and see where God was showing me, and telling me. And I can see that point where I ignored what He has said in Scripture, or He told me through prayer...and the end is always not what it could have been.

Okay, here's a little more...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enough said here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3"What did Moses command you?" he replied. 4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.' 7`For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL divorce involves adultery. Remember this passage, because it is relevant to your current situation. Now, look at the next.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good --except God alone. 19You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' " </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, a divorce involves adultery. Any remarriage involves adultery. In the case of the BS, that sin of remarrying is put on the back of their previous WS, who committed adultery. What Jesus has said here is that adultery breaks the bond that no man can separate. It is His allowance for us to be no longer under that marriage vow...due to the sin of the adulterer. That adulterer will pay the price of the sins that he/she have caused. You see, in adultery, divorce and remarriage, there is a lot of adultery going on. First off, there is the WS's adultery. Then after the divorce, the WS's actions cause the WS and BS to remarry someone new. By remarrying and having sex, the WS is committing adultery, the person they are remarrying is committing adultery, the BS is committing adultery and the person that they are remarrying is committing adultery. See how this spreads?

Now, the "adultery" committed by the BS in remarrying actually is not legally adultery, because Jesus allowed the divorce for marital unfaithfulness. So He gives the BS an "out."

But, now you have remarried and then divorced due to abuse. I am still looking right now for the passage that describes what Jesus meant by "marital unfaithfulness." I will post it when I find it. But, now, you are thinking of remarrying your former husband, after you remarried. Please think again. You see, you have been in God's will this whole time. You have done this correctly and thus will be blessed for it. But the passsage from Deut. is unambiguous. It says God finds remarriage to a former spouse, after either of you have married someone else, as detestable. And why we would want to do something detestable in God's eyes and still think things will come out okay is beyond me. But I still do it all the time. But there are consequences...there are ALWAYS consequences for doing what He has told us not to do.

Look in 2nd Samuel to what happened to David (a man after God's own heart). David wanted Bathsheba. Problem was, he was a Godly man and new what God had said. But he ignored God's rules...had Bathshebas husband killed (murder), and he committed adultery with her.

What was the consequence? David and Bathsheba's first child died. No amount of praying, asking for forgiveness, intercession, etc could save the child's life. David's rebellion cost his child's life. Now, did God forgive David? Yes. Did God bless his marriage with Bathsheba? Yes. As you can see that following the death of the child, David and Bethsheba got pregnant with another child (Solomon), and God loved Solomon. So, God did forgive...AFTER the consequences.

Too Old Testament for you? Well, let's see what the New testament has to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heb 10:26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins.27There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.28Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people.30For we know the one who said, "I will take vengeance.I will repay those who deserve it." He also said,"The Lord will judge his own people." 31It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.32Don't ever forget those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering.33Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things.34You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail. When all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew you had better things waiting for you in eternity.35Do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord, no matter what happens. Remember the great reward it brings you!36Patient endurance is what you need now, so you will continue to do God's will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. 37"For in just a little while,the Coming One will come and not delay. 38And a righteous person will live by faith.But I will have no pleasure in anyone who turns away."
39But we are not like those who turn their backs on God and seal their fate. We have faith that assures our salvation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I know that I am throwing a lot out there. But, look at the bold parts of this passage. God is not talking about the unsaved here. He is talking about Christians. If we ignore His teachings and His will, we will fall into His hands, just as a sinful unrulely child falls in the hands of his parents for discipline.

I have gone long on this. And probably could go longer. In all of this, I just implore you, and your former husband, to look for God's will here. God NEVER, EVER contradicts Himself. So, since He said these things above, they continue to be true...they continue to be His will.

Some grave mistakes have been made here. Mostly by your former husband. His A has caused the destruction of your marriage and great upheaval to your kids. But, unfortunately, there is such a thing as it being too late. Example...It is too late to marry your former childhood sweetheart after you have married someone else. Okay, if they had shown up before you had married, then you probably would have married him/her. But since they showed up after you married someone else, it is TOO LATE.

Unfortunately, God is clear on remarrying a former spouse AFTER they have remarried. I know how you feel on this. All you want is that family back together, and your former husband may want that now too. But according to God, it is too late.

As God has said, sin cannot go without consequences. David found that out...at a VERY high price. Your husband's adultery, and loss of his marriage...and now the inability according to God to remarry each other, is the consequences of his sin.

What will be the cost of both of your refusal to obey Him now. Yes, I am sure He wanted things different for your family. But unfortunately, you have remarried. And He finds you coming back to your former husband detestable. Why? I dont know...but He says He does. And God NEVER changes.

Again, I am sorry to rain on this, because if this had happened before you remarried, it would have been God's will...and would have been great for everyone involved. But, a remarriage now would not be His will...and we do not know what the price will be paid for doing something that is not His will. This is the BIGGEST reason I hel on so long with my wife. I just didnt want to end things, move on, remarry...and then my wife come to her senses. Because, then it would be too late.

I will pray for you and your family Georgie. And for your former husband. God has a plan for your life now...and for him. It doesnt include each other as husband and wife again. But it does include some wonderful things for all of you, if you will listen and follow him.

I am the biggest supporter of saving marriages and mothers and fathers getting back together on this board. But, not if it is not God's will. And the one thing that precludes that is one of the spouses marrying someone else after divorce.

Again, I will pray that all of you receive His guidance in this...and that you find joy in what He has to offer.

In His arms.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

sorry for the multiple posts, don't know why it did that.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

"I am the biggest supporter of saving marriages and mothers and fathers getting back together on this board. But, not if it is not God's will. And the one thing that precludes that is one of the spouses marrying someone else after divorce."

What a load of crap. I have never believed that the Bible is the word of God, and this is a perfect example of why. I very much believe in God, and I believe God would want you to be with the father of your children. In fact, I would tend to believe that God is the force leading you back to the father of your children.
Michael

Michael,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I am the biggest supporter of saving marriages and mothers and fathers getting back together on this board. But, not if it is not God's will. And the one thing that precludes that is one of the spouses marrying someone else after divorce."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a load of crap. I have never believed that the Bible is the word of God, and this is a perfect example of why. I very much believe in God, and I believe God would want you to be with the father of your children. Michael</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please say what you REALLY feel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I also believe God wants husbands and wives to be together, especially for the children. And He has shown that time and time again. But, in the case of divorcing, marrying someone else, and then divorcing again and trying to remarry the first spouse, God is very much clear that He does not approve. Why? I am not sure. I am actively trying to research that now, because God does not make arbitrary rules...there is always a reason! But Deuteronomy 24 is VERY clear on what He expects.

Your beliefs are your beliefs. What they are founded on (feelings, life experiences, etc) I am not sure. And you have every right to them. In Georgie's case, she was searching the Scriptures, as all good Christians should, for the answers to her issues. If you dont believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then so be it. I can PROVE to you it is, with realistic, scientific FACTS...but that is not for this board, nor this thread. If you want, we can email and have a discussion concerning that.

So, for the Christian...the Word of God is the Bible, as well as being led by the Holy Spirit. The two are NEVER in contrast to each other, but always the same.

God has said a remarriage under this type of situation is "detestable" to him. Again, the "why" I am not sure of and I will actively seek the answer to that question.

Again, the point of this thread by Georgie was to find God's Word on her situation, as expressed by the Bible. If you dont believe, then fine.

In His arms.

Ouch Mortarman!!!

I can't argue with scripture, nor debate it's meaning. You have made it all painfully clear. Yes, I could find many scriptures related to God's graciousness and mercy. I could locate scripture telling us of the many times God has forgiven the most terrible of sins, even one's commited knowing at the time that they were wrong.

A huge sadness fills me now. Why? Shouldn't I be feeling grateful that I haven't hurt God any further? Shoot, this feels bad!!!!

Georgie - It is with a heavy heart that I agree with Mortarman on this. The Scriptures are very clear that in this situation you must seek reconciliation with your current H and NOT seek a remarriage to your first H. When you say abuse was involved with your second H, what type of abuse? I understand there is a RO and no contact for 1 1/2 years. Do you know where Greg is? Even if you did that would not change the facts or reality in your situation. You are bound to him legally and morally.

Please don't think anyone is judging you here. We are simply standing on the Word as you indicate you are. Anyone can pick a verse or two and twist it out of context or manipulate them to fit their situation. However, the Scripture must be accepted in it's entirety and it's proper context or we reject it completely.

You are a wonderful and loving person with beautiful children. We don't question your motivation or ethics, we just question your judgement. God will richly reward you in the long run if you do the right thing now. God bless!

MichaelinDallas- Wow 3 repeated posts to say that.

God gave us laws for a reason because he knew we would sin. He wanted to show us that we are sinners. The sin was there before the laws, the laws were put into place to actually show us what we were doing wrong.

If everyone went around divorcing/remarrying/divorcing/remarrying the land would surely be defiled. There are laws in place to counter against those types of situations. Otherwise people would divorce even more freely then they already do.

Georgie believes the word of God so the laws of the bible apply to her. So I find it very difficult when someone says that someone else's "system of laws" is a load of crap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matthew 5:32
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It gets confusing depending on your situation. I would seek proper guidance. It may depend on your grounds for Divorcing your current husband?

MM,
I've done studies on David, and still it puzzles me that since he had a few other wives before Bathsheba, and at least one after (Abigail), and many concubines...why he wasn't constantly living in God's condemnation of adultery. With Bathsheba, there was adultery plus the murder of Uriah.

Marrying the adultery partner who murdered your husband seems to fit the definition of "detestable" and their marriage was blessed with Solomon.

God looked at David's heart and that, along with salvation, is where my faith lays.

Lor,

You are correct about David. He had several issues with the Lord over his lifetime, as we all do. I just brought out that particular consequence for his sin. In reading 2nd Samuel, David's adultery and murder of Uriah cost him and Bathsheba the life of their first child. His sin had consequences. That was what I was speaking to. The fact that sin ALWAYS has consequences. Someone MUST pay for the sin...and the payment is ALWAYS death.

In Old Testament times, that payment was done with animal sacrifices. But Jesus came to pay the ultimate sacrifice, for our sins, once and for all.

The problem is, and a huge issue with heathens, that Christians tend to live off the legacy of Christ taking our sins on Himself...and thus our sins are okay...because Jesus will forgive us...and has forgiven us.

While true, that does not take away the consequences of that sin. Just because I am saved, does not mean if I sleep around on my wife, that I wont catch a deadly disease. There are consequences for my sins.

The passage in Hebrews 10 speaks about believers in rebellion. As I pointed out, while sin is in a loose way, a rebellion from God, please understand the meaning I am talking about here when I talk about rebellion. Like I pointed out above with the kid throwing the baseball in the house.

If we go on sinning (doing the same sin), after we have been told, shown, etc...after we have received the knowldege of the truth...there are no sacrifices to cover the consequences of that sin. What God is saying here is that we might sin, and He might cover it for us if we have true repentence. But He is saying here that he will NOT cover the consequences of rebellion by Christians. It doesnt say He cant...it says He wont.

Think about this. His Son was hung on that Cross and all of the sins of all of the Christians that will ever live were thrown on Him that day. He took the punishment, the pain, the humiliation...He took all of what was due to all of us...onto Himself in one instant. There isnt a person who has ever lived that knows that pain. Our pains pale in comparison.

Now, we take that knowledge of the pain He suffered and what He went through to pay the price for our sins, and then we as Christians just treat it like some everyday event. "Oh, I know it is wrong...but God will forgive me." First of all, that is a total disrespect of God, of Jesus, and what He did for us. Second, it destroys our testimony. And then people around us, the non-believers, cant see any reason to come to Christ. In many ways, the carnal Christian is WORSE than the unbeliever. At least the unbeliever will bear their own sins when they die. The carnal Christian expects Jesus to, but at the same time, is totally ungrateful for that sacrifice.

I am a BS. I know the pain of all of this. But my pain is just one drop in an ocean of pain that Christ endured. If the Master had to endure all of this, what makes us think that we should expect any different in our lives. Again, we are not called to happiness in this life. That is just a blessing. No, we are called to have joy...even in our pains.

It is painful right now for Georgie. Here it is, after all of this mess, the opportunity to put back together what always should have been. But God has said that isnt possible now. Of course that hurts. Of course that seems unfair. Afterall, she wasnt the one that screwed up...why is she continuing to have to pay the price for her husband's mistakes?

Well, we know the answer. Why did Jesus, who was perfect, have to bear my sins? Afterall, it wasnt fair to Him...He did nothing wrong. It wasnt fair to have His closest friends betray Him in His time of need. How painful, how lonely.

But, even more so, the loneliness when He was separated from His Father for three days after His death had to be excruciating. Imagine what it will be like in Heaven. Imagine perfect love. Now, Jesus has lived in that perfect love for eternity. But for three days, He was no longer in that love, couldnt feel it. All He could feel was the pain of the judgment thrown on Him because of us. We think that our spouses betrayal was pain. But imagine being separated from perfect love, when you have always had it. It is more than I can even imagine.

So, it comes down to this. What did Jesus do on that Cross, what did He do by rising on that third day? What does that mean to each of us? Unbelievers find no meaning in that. And they will face Jesus upon their death...and they will pay for their sins themselves. For Christians, we should be on our knees everyday thankful that someone took that away from us. And reminding ourselves daily of just what it took for Jesus to do that.

So, when it comes down to it, we must obey. How could we do otherwise? Jesus has compassion for us. He knows what Georgie is feeling, and the torment that is within her. He knows what it feels like for her not to be able to put that back together because God forbids it. He knows. Remember, right before He was arrested, He had prayed to God, that if there was another way, that He wanted to take that...but that He would do God's will regardless. He too wished there was another way, than through the pain. So, He knows! But just like the woman at the well, He expects us, once we know the truth, to "go and sin no more."

As you closed with, God does look at our hearts. And He does have compassion for those that are trying to do the right thing, as Georgie is trying to do now. For those that will listen, He will lead her to peace and joy...and a fulfilling life. To those that dont (or wont), then He has spoken. There will be no sacrifice that will cover the consequences of rebellion.

In His arms.

<small>[ October 01, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch Mortarman!!!

I can't argue with scripture, nor debate it's meaning. You have made it all painfully clear. Yes, I could find many scriptures related to God's graciousness and mercy. I could locate scripture telling us of the many times God has forgiven the most terrible of sins, even one's commited knowing at the time that they were wrong.

A huge sadness fills me now. Why? Shouldn't I be feeling grateful that I haven't hurt God any further? Shoot, this feels bad!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it does Georgie. I know how you feel. Most on here do.

You say that you have found Scriptures of God forgiving even the most heinous of sins. Sure. God does forgive. I was not talking about that above. I was talking about Him taking away the consequences of that rebellion. When we sin, we do not always get the consequences of that sin. God protects us due to our hearts, and our repentence.

But He has said in Hebrews 10, that He will not take away the consequences of rebellion by a Christian. He will forgive...of course He will. He forgave David and Bathsheba. But the consequences still came nonetheless.

Everyone likes to concentrate of God's love, on His holiness. But one HUGE part of being holy is judgment. If God swept sins under the rug, that would make Him unholy. There must be justice for our sins. Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for those that will receive it. And thus we will not pay in eternity for those sins. But, that is not to say that He is going to take away the consequences of those sins. He can, and many times does.

But, i nthe case of rebellion, He has limited Himself. He has said that He will not allow any sacrifice, any mitigating of the consequences of rebellion. He wont take the consequences away. And there are a whole host of reasons why, as I spelled out in my last post. Ultimately, He loves the heathen next door to you, and wants them to come to repentence also. And if your testimony is ruined because of your actions, then His will isnt done and that person may be forever lost.

We so often want to concentrate on the unfairness, of the pain in this life. But God has a MUCH bigger picture. He is looking at eternity. And in the terms of that, then His rules, His decisions, make great sense.

Again, I do feel your pain...and I am praying for you. But please do not confuse forgiveness with consequences. In the end, we are not the Creator...thus we have no right to write the rules. We have no idea the big scheme of things, in our own lives, and in everyone else's. But He does. Have faith in that...He will lead you to where you need to be.

In His arms.

MM,
You explain these points well. I'm in a Bible study using Bob George's "Classic Christianity" and we've been talking a lot about mistakes, sin, rebellion, and what exactly Jesus did on the cross for all time.

Enough hijacking from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Y'know...

I almost replied 3 times and stopped.

I reread Deut... not ambiguous.

But after a lot of time in Luke - kinda my favorite chapter and some prayer I respectfully but emphatically disagree here.

I do believe that Christ freed us of many things, sometimes including previous laws. I prayed hard about this last night and today. I am usually the wisecracking jokester type but I am serious for once.

I'm not going to debate which passage takes precedence when one conflicts with another - i generally go with New Testament over old...

I would not dismiss the idea of restoring your original family. Talk to a few true theologians in your area and pray more on this. Your relationship with God is intensely personal and it sounds as though it is foremost in your heart - if you pray and ask His guidance with this and really look at what he puts in your heart I think the answer will be there.

I do believe the Bible, I have also seen times when things seemed to conflict and prayer and a willingness to listen gave me an answer - I have yet to have one of those answers turn out 'wrong' even though sometimes I spent a lot of time looking up and saying "You sure about this one, or are you messing with me?". Ignoring what I KNEW he was telling me generally has had messy results.

Only God knows whether he wants your original family to be restored.. I have a feeling he will tell you if you ask with an open heart/mind.

Personally? I believe nothing would please God more than to see you raising your children with thier father in a loving, Christian home. Yes, you both lost the path... but I just re-read the story of the prodigal son today.

it isn't the flawless that He treasures most... it is the flawed who get it right and regain the path that makes Him most proud.

No disrespect to Mortar - can't argue with his points, but I do truly believe that the sequel to that book changes things to some degree.

Wish you and your kids the very best... if it is in His plan, i hope that your family is restored and becomes more than it was.

God bless and good luck,
2.

aside from all the other issues (relgious pros and cons), you are apparently having at least an emotional affair with your exH. Like all affairs, I imagine this clouds your judgement, and affects your marriage....whether this was a factor from the git go, I don't know.... did you have any more interaction with your exh...other than bare minimum co-parenting requirements? If so, your relationship with new H, before and after the marriage would have been tainted by your behaviour. For the time being you should be in NC (except child issues in the case of your exh) with anyone who you feel attraction too, until you resolve your marriage...right? You clearly had a lot of interest in this marriage, but seem to be seeking no help in making it work, just permission/encouragement to walk away, that is contrary to what MB is for (and really hypocritical for those who are giving advice).... Why aren't you (and maybe you have, and I am unaware of it) posting info about what is specfically going on in the marriage, and asking for help in restoring your marriage? If in fact your H is some sort of major monster, I agree, leave...is that the case? THEN pursue other relationships, an affair is not the appropriate solution...nor is divorcing someone with the intent of marrying someone else, that is what affairs are all about, and everyone (including you I assume) abhors.