A private forum for WSs? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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After seeing some of the emotions aroused by some of the issues, and sometimes feeling pangs when I hear the musings of WS. I got to thinking that maybe a private forum would be a good idea. I also think that when someone is on this site and looking for guidance, even if very "foggy" that being flamed by those reacting to their own personal griefis not the best way to support tham.

I note that there is one for pregnancy so I gueass it is possible.

I do think that imput by BS would be needed, but perhaps a few of the oldtimers who have a leaning towards tyring to help WS find their way might be willing to participate in such a forum.

Anyway, just a suggestion
C&S

[ November 01, 2004, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: confused&scared ]

C&S - Forget it. We've already been through this. We had a WW's thread going, but they got run out of here. Even asked the mod's to consider, since practically nobody posts on PlanA/B. But apparently it is out of the question.

c&s:

Penny Tupy has such a board on her forum www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com under "Reclamation".

-ol' 2long

C&S, perhaps just one thread at a time requesting input from WS only. Certainly some BS's might post but for the most part I think the request would be honored. I find it very sad when anyone is chased from here. "every man is my superior in that I may learn from him".

I am glad that she does. I just think that if I were a W spouse (I am or was a BS) that I would have to be very brave to post honestly here after reading some of the threads here (particularly today). My husband has never posted here but if he had I would hate to see him crucified as he would have run off. I would rather that he was listened to, guided told the hard truths in a repectful way so that he might have been helped.

I just think that for some the emotions are just to raw to see things objectively at times (myself included) and a private forum here would be an asset to the board.
C&S

OT, Hey Donna!!! Is your H out of town again, or were you just DRAWN to the DRAMA here today?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So good to see you. Very comforting for me. How's that thesis coming???

Spidey

I'll bite.

This IS a discussion board...so I'll throw in another opinion.

No.. I don't think there SHOULD be a "private forum". That goes against every MARRIAGE BUILDING principle I've ever read.

I'm neither condemning or condoning today's "debate/discussion"...it happens...and I will read, but I will not post there. That's my right, and my privledge. Just like everyone else has.

The bottom line is this is a public discussion forum, open to people interested in building better marriages. I can totally understand the privacy of the Pregnancy board...that carries ramifications I can't even comprehend...but WS....no.

I help, listen...and comfort MANY a WS....no prejudice here at all.... I won't participate in "getting over the OP" discussions...or how difficult it is...or "how much they miss them"...and that was what happened in one such thread. It turned into a spin off of TOW board. Made me physically ill.

BUT... the interest of EVERYONE...posting on the INFIDELITY boards...should be their marriage...period.

I stick with my original sentiment...a "Private Forum" for WS...goes directly AGAINST..the Harley principles of SAA.

I respect you opinion Betrayed and understand where you are coming from.

I do wonder how many WS there are out there that have left the board after being on the receiving end of an expression of someones anger.

I do not think that any of us need to be treated with kid gloves. Some of the posts that helped me the most early in this I found a bit confronting at first read, but then thought about what had been posted to me and gained from them.

But I just think that if a WS has found his way to this board that there is some chance that she may be looking for a way home. I just think we might lose a few due to a minority of posts that might scare them off.

While now I can hear a WS lamenting his Love for OP and his "displeasure" with his spouse, back in my early post DDay times I found that they were very painful to read and I would lose a lot of hope for my own marriage.

I do think it is a shame if we lose people that might need some help.
C&S

C&S,
Okay...thank you for the opportunity to discuss.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let me put this out there....and tell me what you REALLY think.... and I mean really...NOT a knee jerk response.

#1.IF...a WS really wants to recovery their M... would anything on this BOARD..prevent that ?

#2.Could a marriage...be recovered WITHOUT the help of this board ?

#3. In SPITE of this board.... dozens of posts from dozens of supporters...do WS fall off the NC wagon inspite of not ever receiving a single 2X4 ?

So to sum it up ...in total....how much impact do you really think this board has ?

Of course I can't speak for ALL WS... I only know my own up close and personal....but the decision to come home...end A...and rebuild the M...solely HIS..and his alone...nothing anyone said...or didn't say...would have ANY bearing on that.

Does that give you enough to chew on ?

p.s. And if a WS flees the board...what are the really fleeing from ?

again...speaking for my OWN WS..and not any elses....nothing ANYONE, could EVER write on here... could hurt him...more than his very own actions.

Hey, Confused&Scared, I said HELLO!!!!!

Geez, do I have to YELL to get your attention???

OK, everyone, go back to your most EXCELLENT discussion. Great reading. Love it lots.

BYE!

Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
So glad you're liking this one.

Sorry Spidey I was away posting to you. I started a new thread for it.

Hi Betrayed I will try and answer your questions

1/ No. I don't think if they really wanted to recover marriage that ANYTHING could stop them.

However if they are heading further and further into a life of their own choosing that may not sit well with what were once their own morals that a visit to this board might be a last little glimmer of them trying to hang on to the person they once were.

I think some WS who come here might not initially have th intention of saving their marriage. But by reading here on the site and the forums and receiving some of the excellent advice I have seen given them over the last three years that I have been a member here, that at least some of them might be encouraged to give their marriage another shot.

2/ Of course a marriage does not need this board to recover. My own early reconciltaion (not recovery) occured prior to my finding this board. I will say that reading here certainly helped me though. I think that the board should not be seen as counseling but as a support. I think that counseling is important. That is what helped me the most. However I have read on here some who have recovered without that as well.

3/ Yes. I think that if a WS is going to have contact that nothing can stop them.

I do think though that you are misinterpreting one thing. I am not saying that WS should be handled with kid gloves. As I said, the posts that got through to me the most were the hardest for me to hear. But I have seen some extremely angry posting towards WS in my time here. And I actually think that in today's drama that Noodle's post was misinterpreted and reacted to. I didn't think that she was advocating violence towards adulterers. It was just an example of how miscommunication andinflamed emotions can detract from the initial purpose of a thread and send the person looking for some support scurrying away. The initial topic is all but forgotten in the process.

How much impact does the board have?

I don't know. As far as WS are concerned in my own personal case absolutely none as he has never visited this site and so it made no impact on him whatsoever. For me some impact but my marital recovery was not reliant upon this board. At times very early I would be ready to throw in the towel and would read something inspirational on here that would improve my mindset and encourage me. Nowadays if I come here it is to catch up with the few old friends I have made, and occassionally of I see someone who I think I want to support I will post to them.

But maybe there is some marriage out there right now on the brink of falling apart where a person might come here and read . And the seeds might be sewn to reconsider and give the marriage another shot. I think that to recover a whole lot more is needed than this board. I think you will see by the number of my posts that I am not a prolific participant of the site and have not relied on this site as my only means of recovering my marriage.

If a WS flees the board sometimes I think it is to avoid facing head on what they are actually doing. I think they are avoiding facing themselves. Ocassionally I think it is because they are on the receiving end of a lot of negative posts ( and note I don't mean constractive criticism here, I mean personal attacks which fortunately don't happen all that often).

I am glad that your spouse would not be hurt by anything on here. But I know that if I were some of the posters here I would be hurt by some of the responses even if I had hurt myself by hurting my own spouse. And if I was not yet ready to reenter my marriage but nevertheless reaching out to feel the way home that that might make me give up that idea. But then maybe I think that because I am not as straong as some people and feel things that others might not.

Anyway hope I have aswered questions OK.
Perhaps you are right. I don't know. Thats why I asked the question. Just a suggestion. Thanks for the discussion
C&S

Thanks C&S,
I can see your points.
I'd have to do some more thinking on this.

Now you have me thinking about what role this board plays in my own recovery.

Like you...for me... it was invaluable to know my feelings were normal..particularly during early recovery...had it not been for others in my own place...I would have convinced myself that I was NEVER going to get over this.

My H...posted 2 times in total...reads often. Applies principles...but doesn't get involved the way I do...sometimes thinks I'm here a little too often.

But...now I'm going to really think about the role the BOARD played....and I'm going to seperate the BOARD...from the Harley principles..because one CAN be used without the other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was thinking the same exact thing. WS's need a safe place to post without fear of nasty replies. I have come to realize that we see things very differently due to our strong feelings. MB is not a place for a WS with thin skin to post. It's very rough to be doing your best (and most WS's that visit here are) and be burned down for your different view point. I separate thread will not do - while most would respect the thread and not post a nasty reply - soem would, I have seen it happen.

I sincerely doubt this forum would be abused. I would see it as more of a tool for the wiser WS's to enlighten the new WS's in a safe environment. Maybe a wise older WS could moderate to be sure we don;t start talkin chicks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

P.S. I think a 2x4 is much more effective in the hands of fellow WS!

[ November 02, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: SleeplessInSF ]

I've requested a link from Star*fish for another site. After yesterday- and the posts today on noodle's thread I don't think I want to continue to post here. Perhaps another forum would be helpful.

wait wait wait...............I'm coming with you!

Deleted because the ugliness it contained outweighed any truth hoped to convey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

[ November 05, 2004, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]

Weaver - Please don't go! Your kind words have helped so many people.

I read all of the posts from yesterday but didn't want to get involved so I didn't post. I didn't think they were that bad. Why? It think it helps to hear all points of view, even if some can come across as cruel. If we treat everyone with kid gloves then we don't get meaningful discussions going. I found everyone's input interesting even if I didn't agree with it.

Weaver, I don't know if you'll be back to read this but I couldn't help seeing your sig is a Leonard Cohen song.

Do you remember our poetry thread and when I asked you if you knew Leonard Cohen's poems?

I don't know but for some reason that made me cry. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I too can't come back here. I don't need a board any more and I used to think I was a bit of help around the place but not any more.

Jen

I sincerely hope that NONE of you will leave. What this board needs is a balance of input. Now that I am also a WS, I ask each of you to stay.

WS's have been run off this board before. Please, please don't go.

I let my WH know about this board over a year and a half ago. He has chosen not to read or post. But if he did come here, I would have wanted others to be kind and supportive to him, at least until he felt comfortable here.

I rarely post at this site but read often.

Please let me know what the website is that you ladies go to because as a FWW, I want to go there also.

I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair!

When Bob Pure said something about the motel where his wife and her OM humped, it just made me feel his description was SO very very disrespectful to his wife.

It lacked any understanding of what prompted her to have an affair; put her in category of an animal!

Any of us that really had sincere feelings for the OM, did not look at the intimate time with him as 'HUMPING'.

Anyway, I would love a SAFE PLACE to post.

Make, if you want to talk about things like missing the OM and the affair, etc, you might try gloryb.com. You won't get alot of support for such destructive talk around here. This is a marriage building forum, not a romanticize the sleazy affair forum.

As far as Bob's reference to humping, my hat is off to him for being so mild. He is more reserved than I, for sure. I usually refer to two affairees getting it on as 2 pigs rutting in the pig pen. I just can't think of a more respectful way to describe sleazy, illicit sex. What's disrespectful is the ACT and it deserves no respectful language in description.

So, I wish you the best in finding the kind of forum where you can get that kind of support and thank God it is not this forum.

It is smart A** remarks like Melody Lane just gave, that makes this board a place where FWW, that have any trouble getting over the addiction of the OM, feel like we are just rutting pigs in her snotty opinion!

I could live my entire lifetime without hearing her rude remarks!

Gloryb is a site more for women that are STILL IN the affair; anyway that is what I thought.

Rachel

Rachel, however, if you want to do productive things, such as work on rebuilding your marriage, rather than romanticize a sleazy affair, you WILL find lots of support here.

But rest assured that BS' are not required here to pretend that a disrespectful, disgusting act is anything but.

this site is about building/rebuilding marriages...

even inspite of ...

the pain of any ones infidelity....
no matter where the label lays....or which side of the coin one happens to be....

People here think it's funny to call the OP names and to attack one another,

people don't think it's funny...
people hold great restraint in that department...

I do wonder how many WS there are out there that have left the board after being on the receiving end of an expression of someones anger.

It's an opinion board...take it or leave it...
rarely is raw anger expressed here..
it serves no purpose...people that post here get that....
there is very little of that...

even if very "foggy" that being flamed by those reacting to their own personal griefis not the best way to support tham.

I have no triggers...and am not unsympathetic to their pain...but it serves no purpose in the healing process.....
I can't support that of which does not serve their well being..in the bigger picture....keep the focus on the larger goal...

and yep we can create a forum where we all wallow in the pain..

BS can go on adnauseum how bad the OP is...
villifying and crucifying them....
WS can go on adnauseum how terrible their marriage and spouse is/are...and how much they miss the OP...and no one will mention that relieving them of the feeling of missing the OP hurts innocent children and perhaps spouses...

we can die in the minutia...

or we can cut past the feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
part and get down to the actions of healing ...
and re-building
and creating a marriage that brings great joy into all our lives......

I personally...
am hard on BS/OP/WS equally ...

that's the way I see it...

ARK

I KNEW I shouldn't have returned to this thread..but it started off REALLY WELL...with the best of intentions. And then it took a slippery turn. And then it got worse. And now this....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair! <hr /></blockquote>If you scroll up to my FIRST response...this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about.

Now I'm just irritated...the thread has truly lost it's original purpose...and I'm returning back to the recovery board...where things aren't so hostile.... for WS AND BS alike.

I've been coming to these boards for 8 months...and I've never seen the hostility I've read here.... NEVER. And there have been WS on these boards...for quite some time...and more than a handful have earned a BOAT LOAD of respect from every single BS on the boards. So I don't think a FEW days should reflect the boards in general.

Geez.... so sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

People here think it's funny to call the OP names and to attack one another,

[b]people don't think it's funny... people hold great restraint in that department... [/b]

Did you read the voting poll on whether or not 2long should continue to call his OP ratmeat or not? The replies to that poll make me feel sick.

People here do not hold great restraint in that department.

And yes it is a public forum, but is it to be a forum where only the angry and betrayed are heard and recognized?

And that is the overall attitude of the majority of the people who tend to post the most here, if it weren't than you would have more people like Kiwi, and KY and Sadfww and many others who have either left or who are quiet most of the time posting.

And as far as attacking, there was an awful lot of that going on yesterday, people attacking star*fish, people attacking Mel, people attacking me for asking that they not attack others.

Did you read Noodles post on what WS deserves? And the replies of all the other posters?

[ November 02, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]

1312 posts of mine...

one post speaking specifically of a name given to a person who has mad a man's life torture...
(of which he chooses to be part of...and i tell him that every 100-200 posts or so....) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

In the bigger picture weaver...little time is spent villifying...
Though I did once suggest to Terrified when her daughter was snow-white that her husband should dress a grumpy.....

for God's sake around here every post is scrutinized to be called in by the judging police...if you dare say boo to anyone...

Did you read Noodles post on what WS deserves? And the replies of all the other posters?

nope didn't read it...thought it sounded to offensive...so I skipped it...

and that one post..noodles...
and 2longs one post..
do not define this board by a long shot..

ark

This was only a suggestion borne out of a desire avoid situations like yesterday.

I guess there are a lot of thick skinned people out there who are able to read such posts and not be hurt. I for one am not that thick skinned and would be vry hurt by some of the posts here. And when I early in my recovery, I was particularly fragile. I know I am a betrayed spuose, but I also saw the pain in my husband after all this hit the fan. At the time, I felt he deserved his pain. If he as a stranger had come to me for help, I don't know that I could have set my own hurt aside to help him constructively. I probably would have attacked him as being symbolic of the cause of my own pain.

But then he would have missed some chance of someone maybe getting through to him or steering him towards the right path.

Anyway my aim in this suggestion was not to cause trouble. I guess I was trying to brainstorm ideas such as when negotiating, where you love every idea for a while and then either adopt it or cast it aside if it doesen't measure up.

So I guess based on the reponses it is not a good idea, so point taken
C&S

ARK
I have great respect for you and I agree that you treat all parties to affairs, marriages equally. I agree that the hard truths need to be told, rather than allowing each other to just wallow in pain and self pity.
I do however believe that there is a repectful way to spell out a truth and ther are in a minority of cases real personal attacks here. You in my opinion are respectful in the way you deliver a hard piece of adviice. Twyla was able to do the same and I also had great admiration for her. You remind me a lot of her. At first I'll read something you have posted and even if I can't see you point it makes me think.

I think I try and post with repect myself. I am not so good at delivering the hard truths. I am terrified of conflict and have had to work hard on that. Maybe that is why when events such as yesterday occur on here it upsetes me. Maybe I haven't really grown as much as I thought I had.

But I don't think that we can speak for everyone. I see posts here that are attacking and I see disrepectful judgements and I see a lot of fragile, hurt people getting even more hurt.

This site was a great support to me when I first found myself here. Even though not a prolific poster I read a lot and got support.

If I had come here for the first time yesterday and read here, I doubt I would have stayed and I am a betrayed spouse. This forum used to be so positive and encouraging.
C&S

People who have affairs get immense enjoyment and gratification from them. Over time the view that the affair was a good and enjoyable thing seems to fade in the minds of many or most FWS.

They associate OP with pleasure and love for a long time , and consider then deserving of resepect from their BS.

A BS has absolutely none of the positive associations of the affair. The BS has only badness and ill.

If I had been raped I would not be expected to refer to my rapist in affectionate or even polite terms.

My Marriage was raped by OM in collusion with my FWW. No less. I FEEL raped.

I am prevented by my love and by the proven path to the recovery of my marriage of avoiding LBs from saying what I think about OM and the 'acts of love' he enjoyed with my FWW so I say them here and very mildly indeed.

Some of you FWS would seem to have we BS behave like superhuan saints in repressing our humanity as we work thorugh the mess of our lives.

Any readers of my posts would see that I have admitted my part in allowing my marriage to become unsatisfying for both of us pre-A. They would also see my genuine care for and appreciation of the FWS on here who give so selflessly of their own experience to all who ask.

Please do not expect saintly behaviour from me - I'm just a sad jock trying to rebuild our lives from teh dry sand left after my wifes affair.

I love and appreciate the FWS who give so selflessly on here.

The site would be nothing without them.

But please, you must understand that BS cannot think well of OP and the A, in the same way as you cannot HELP thinking that way for a time at least.

Please reconsider your position re: this foum.

{{{{FWS}}}}

(((((weaver))))) and (((((others))))) who are having similar feelings.

Let me first say that if you think a break is needed from the system, then by all means take one. I have taken several breaks from the system in the past 2.5 years. It can be draining and there can be a time when one has to reevaluate their own marriage and whether or not continued presence on the system is helpful or hurting to their own recovery. Make no mistake about it, THE most important reason for anyone to be here is to first get help in recovering their own marriages. AFTER someone is well into recovery, they may be able to help others by returning some of the gift that they received. Until then, a desire to help motivates many, but the "control" on the emotions and the "personalizing" of many comments is tenuous at best and things can be said that might not be said under "normal" circumstances.

There is no question that BS's and WS's have some similar things to deal with, but they also have some markedly different things to deal with in the process of recovery. Thus, a given post can be seen or "felt" differently by each person depending on whether they are BS or WS, and at what stage in recovery they happen to be.

So with that, let me address a couple of things from your post;

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Did you read the voting poll on whether or not 2long should continue to call his OP ratmeat or not? The replies to that poll make me feel sick.

People here do not hold great restraint in that department.<hr /></blockquote>No, I have not read the poll and I am very familiar with 2Long's moniker for the OM in his life. I also understand (as personally hurting as it is to me) that many WS's, my wife included, see their OM or OW as a "good person."

Especially in the case of most female WS's, there is a strong emotional attachment before there is sex. That "attachment" is both part of the justification for the affair and a lingering part of the "fog" that hangs around, sometimes for a long time, even while trying to recover the marriage. That "feeling" belongs to the BS, but a part of it is "reserved" for the OP. "Forsaking all others" means simply NO involvement of any kind, emotional or physical, with anyone other than your spouse. Recovery can, unfortunately, take a long time to get back to that commitment. Until it does, the BS IS going to be hurt by the simple knowledge that they are NOT fully recovered yet and that some "part" of their spouse still "belongs" to another.

Weaver, can a "good man" hurt others? Sure. Can a "good man" do something that forever changes another's perception of him? Sure. Can a "forgiven" person still be told "I no longer want you in my life? Sure. Can a repentant rapist give a woman back her pre-rape sanctity? No. Can a repentant OP give a marriage back that which was willfully taken from it? No.

They CAN change their lives from today forward, but they cannot "turn back the clock" and make it so things never happened.

If a person does NOT repent, should they be forgiven? I happen to think not. God does not forgive without repentance because if He would, there would have been no need for Christ. Can we choose to "forgive" even those who harm us and are not repentant? Yes, at some level we can, but not in the truest sense of the term "forgiveness." To forgive as God has forgiven us is to "make them pure as snow" in our eyes BECAUSE of their having Christ in their lives. Without that(surrendered their life to Christ) they are controlled by Satan and there are only two sides in the spiritual battle, God's and Satan's.

So let me tell you that I have had many "terms" and "thoughts" about my wife's OM (who by the way is still intruding in our recovery after 2.5 years). Not one of those thoughts or terms is "good." Oh sure, by some human standards her OM is "good" and helpful and kind and...fill in all the usual monikers. But "where it counts" he is baselessly selfish, out for his own needs and "to He!! with everyone else."

Weaver, if you could see the "dark side of my soul" when it comes to what I think of this "destoyer," you would think that I am satanic myself. It IS by the grace of God that I have been able to turn over "vengeance" to the Lord and not acted on my own. This "good person" did his level best to destroy my wife's faith, our marriage, our family, my wife's relationship with her family, my wife's relationship with our children ("Oh, they'll get over it" he said). Yes, I know my wife's "part" in it. But the primary difference is that she chose God and repentance in the end. Should the OM ever accept Christ, I as sure he would then seek my forgiveness. At that time I would grant it, but I would also still enforce the consequence of No Contact for the rest of his life.

Weaver, there are none "good" but God. I know I'm not, but I try (not always successfully) to be surrendered to God's will and to keep mine "in check" when my emotions scream that being obedient it "too hard" or "unfair!"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And yes it is a public forum, but is it to be a forum where only the angry and betrayed are heard and recognized? <hr /></blockquote>No, weaver, it's not. However, what do you really expect to find on a board that is awash with newly betrayed and early in recovery folks? Emotions ARE raw and nerves are drawn to the point of breaking on the JFO and General Questions II boards.

It's WHY for almost 2 years I almost never read or posted on those forums. I was not ready to handle those emotions without it personally affecting me, sometimes to a greatly negative extent. I restricted my posting to the Recovery forum, where people, by and large, ARE working at recovery and working at getting through the intensely painful parts associated with affairs.

If you find yourself in a similar category, may I suggest you do something similar and restrict your posting and reading to the more "sedate" Recovery forum?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And that is the overall attitude of the majority of the people who tend to post the most here, if it weren't than you would have more people like Kiwi, and KY and Sadfww and many others who have either left or who are quiet most of the time posting.<hr /></blockquote>weaver, many have come and many have gone. Many lurk and for whatever reason don't post, or post very little. By far the preponderance of posters are those who are "new" to infidelity and recovery. There are raw emotions in abundance and hurtful things can be said.

In some respects it is yet another consequence of adultery. It is unlikely that anything would ever be said IF there had been no affair. It is unlikely that anyone would BE here were it not for an affair. But PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is operative here too. Both in trying to restain our tongues (fingers as we type) AND in trying to determine which forum is "best" for us at our particular stage of recovery.

Think of it this way, if it helps, one of the reasons we stress Marriage Counseling is to have an uninvolved, unemotionally invested person to help both spouses with the tough issues. They are "expected" to restrain emotions in their responses and guidance. But here, you have the "participants" trying to "play counselor." With a very few exceptions (like Cerri (Penny)), none of is a trained counselor. We are the "hurt and injured animals" who are trying to heal but who will "snap" easily if we feel more pain.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And as far as attacking, there was an awful lot of that going on yesterday, people attacking star*fish, people attacking Mel, people attacking me for asking that they not attack others. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, I'm not entirely sure what "attacks" you are referring to. I know in my case, I "took on" star*fish on her thread warning Wayward Spouses that ALL posters were going to drag them through the mud and be hurtful and unfeeling toward them. I disagreed with her. While some may do so because of their own pain and "lashing out" at someone other than their own spouse, the vast preponderance of posting is both helpful and understanding. Not "tolerant" of fog or lies or behavior that is clearly harmful...but most willing to help those who are truly seeking help for a changed life and a recovered marriage.

Understand that I think star*fish has been a tremendous help to many. I only took issue with the "blanket" indictment that she chose to assign to all posters, especially to Betrayed Spouses, as being a "danger" to Wayward Spouses who might post here. As I have said before, none of us is "perfect" or "right all the time."

I personally saw no problem in objecting to her blanket statement any more than I would object to a WS who thought they could remain "friends" with an OP while their BS is in agony over the betrayal. There are those who might disagree with me, but that's simply how it is. We each view infidelity and recovery differently and through the prism of our own situation. Some commmon ground exists, and some marked differences can exist. But ultimately it is OUR OWN marriage that takes precendence and not the advice or opinions of others.

The emotional load can be huge. So sometimes a break from the system IS best. Sometimes we need to "step back from the individual trees" in order to better see the "whole forest."

God bless and grant you continued healing in your recovery. I hope to see you, and the others who choose to take a break, around the forums some time.

I have been reading a lot of what everyone here has been saying.

Now I am a FWW , recent one so a lot of this is so raw to me & I am going to be very frank & honest so PLEASE donâ€™t be offended Iâ€™m not trying or meaning to be nasty to anyone.

I agree that a forum for WS would be GREAT, it does not have to be private as I think we should have it open for comment, but it means you could ask someone who you believe has crossed the line to post on another forum. Its at least unlikely you will get a lot of similar posts anyway.

However, I do know that for me I do not take too much of what BS say to heart as I realise they are full of pain & hurt and many times say things here they cannot say to their WS , they vent. I didnâ€™t understand that at first and was hurt at first. Now I know what they are doing and I take from their posts what I want and leave the rest.

But I agree they drive away first timers, they did to me. It was Aussie who persuaded me to come back not anyone here. And I was a bit anxious in doing so.
Thatâ€™s why I think a separate forum as a start off place for WS could help.

As for our BS opinions on the OP, well do you think I like having my judgement or lack there of rubbed in my face? Thank you but I am doing that by myself very well thanks!!!

My H thinks the OP is low sneaky SOB on his good days. I will not post what he calls him on other days. Do I like that?? NO
DO I like seeing it here ? NO
But I grudgingly accept it here because frankly, it is what most BS to a greater or lessor extent think of the OP. Just donâ€™t ask me to like it ok?

My MC/IC explained it very clearly to me. The BS who wants to save the M and is having a bad time coping HATES, LOATHES, and to put it in Aussies crude words, â€˜ he would not p*ss on him if he was burningâ€™ . does this because he cannot â€˜HATEâ€™ me the WS, so he â€˜HATESâ€™ the OP instead.
Like so much the intensity reduces in time.

I joke about this on the forums because I donâ€™t have a good way of saying â€˜p*ss offâ€™ to my H. And to be brutally frank, I would rather have him â€™hateâ€™ my OP right now than me.

But even so, understanding all of this it still damn well hurts at time.

I honestly don't think anyone here is expected to be a saint or refrain from expressing their feelings of pain/disappointment/anger...even in graphic detail. I just sincerely hope, that as much as possible...the expression of those feelings is centered on *I* statements...and not directed at other posters. If I said for instance that "When my husband cheated on me, I was so hurt and so angry that I wanted to drag him in the middle of town and set him on fire." that would be about how *I* feel. I don't think anyone would be offended that I felt that way. But if I told someone else that "*you* deserve to be dragged to the center of town and set on fire" that's completely different. If I said that "When *I* found out, that even my husband's death did not feel like sufficient compensation for my pain", I think people would clearly understand that. However, a declaration that "Even killing *you* is not enough" that becomes very personal and very harmful. Then, it isn't about me...it's about using someone else as a surrogate for my pain. The post in question was filled with "you, you, you"....which is quite hard not to misunderstand. Even if those sentiments had been communicated in a way that expressed how a BS who just found out "could/might" feel....I doubt seriously that there would have been much of an uproar at all.

My impression is that most of the BSâ€™s posting here is understanding and tolerant of the feelings and inner struggles of a WS, BUT then there is usually one or two â€˜rotten applesâ€™ between all these good and caring people with nasty, snotty and insensitive remarks who scared of WSâ€™s from this board. I don't think a seperate board for the FWS's would be necessary if this wasn't the case, but it is the nasty and insensitive people like this who makes a separate board for the FWS's necessary. If these insensitive and nasty remarks is coming from a BS who is still very early recovery and new to this board, I can understand, but I have seen some FWSâ€™s scared of from this board by BSâ€™s who are long in recovery and suppose to know better and suppose to have developed some sensitivity, emphaty and understanding.... This is unacceptable behavior from a BS who view him or herself as a â€˜veteranâ€™ of this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> One specific FWW I still remember who was scared off from this board was Broken Vesselâ€¦ She is a sincere and good person who have strayed. She was in intense withdrawal from the OM and A and in deep depression. At the time she was very fragile, she was in a lot of pain and her emotions was still very raw. She missed the OP but experienced much guilt because of that... She shared her feelings openly and honestly on this board but eventually she stopped posting, unregistered and even deleted most of her post from this board. I still feel sad about this incident and Iâ€™m still wondering how she is doing...

Withdrawal from the OP and A is very hard, intense and painful for most WSâ€™s. BSâ€™s know this but most of them donâ€™t want to hear about this. The residual feelings a WS often have for an OP after an A IS very real and the grief IS very painful... Yes, certainly the WS â€˜deserveâ€™ the pain because of their own wrong choices and actions, but the pain â€˜deservedâ€™ is REAL and EXISTS..it can't be denied by the BS, WS or anyone else! But still...many BSâ€™s can't tolerate this and expect the WS to keep â€˜silentâ€™ about their feelings of withdrawal... I have struggled through these residual feelings myself and I think any other FWS will agree with me that it would have been much easier if those feelings could just disappear with the press of a button. Hell, how much easier recovery would be then! But unfortunately it doesnâ€™t work that way! Even if a FWS focus on the M and S and try to rebuild the M, the residual feelings for the OP still exists for some time, but often it is expected from a FWS to â€˜sweep this feelings under the rugâ€™ and not talk about it... Even if the WS don't talk about it and keep silent about it, the feelings is STILL there... Tell me, how on earth can a FWS recover and work through these feelings if they are not allowed to talk about it and get it out? Those feelings will not just dissapear in the sky...especially not if the WS is not allowed to talk about it, get it out and work it through. Give me a break!

[ November 03, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

Well, I guess it is about time.

To all those that have help me in the past I would like to say "thank you!"

It is time for this FWS to leave. This place is no longer a safe nor very relavant to folks like me. I guess I can hope that my wife will have an affair of her own so I can drink from the cup of righteous indignation that so many here seem to partake. Many here seem to be enjoying it very much.

If you really feel that your FWS should be burned at the stake, shot, dismembered, etc., why in the world are you still with them? Why don't you just let them go? Let them find someone that does value them . . . and doesn't think they are a POS. It just doesn't make sense.

BSs, I get your point. We are subhuman.

Enjoy your victory.

edited to add . . .

see you over at SYMC

edited again to add . . .
Of course not all BS behave this way in this forum. Some have been very helpful to me and am thankful that they spent some of their precious time trying to help me repair my damaged life.

[ November 03, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

comfortably-numb...

I can't understand that out of the thousands of posts on this site...
how you conclude that a few secluded posts set the tone for this board....

It's NOT that WS spouses feeling are discounted....
in my opinion....

It's is though that in realm of FIXING AND BUILDING a marriage if that is why people are "here".....
feelings aren't necessarily from where the actions should come from.....

being here as long as I have...
I can not advocate that slaying WS is the purpose of this board...by a long shot...

How many BS in the throes of extreme emotion are told over and over again...
let the feeling part go and focus on the action...
BS must think the "collective we" are insane to deny them their perceived rightous indignation which is more and more often than not the exact response from posters attempting to get them focused....

BUT somehow if the same advice is given to WS it is vicious and malicious...I don't get it...
I simply don't.....

infidelity hurts all...
it hurts society
it brings great pain to all......

but to rebuild at some point each one must push through and past the pain...to the other side...

where each person again can be at peace with themselves and their universe....

splitting this board as suggested would create the exact type of board war that you and others say exists here.....

to label all BS as incompassionate is quite a leap....

If we all acted on feelings of hurt and pain in our lives....all marraiges would fail...
all of them....

ARK

I quite agree with Ark.
A lot of WS and BS are here helping each other understand what is going on in their spouses' mind and that is very valuable.
Splitting the forums (or is it fora? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) up would take away that valuable input and perhaps make it more a "WS versus BS" thing, which I would really regret.
It's like forming ghetto's. That brings back some very bad memories. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't like anyone getting hit, BS or WS. It doesn't do any good to anyone, better to go for a good work out or buy a punching back if you need to get some anger out of you. But while some seem to have a radar for finding such angry posts, my radar seems to steer me away from such posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So please excuse for not having jumped in there, I surely would have. Any WS having the guts to come here and honestly talk about his/her remorse needs all the help and respect he/she can get, just like any BS who honestly wants to rebuild. Unfortunately some BS seem to think they have the "right" to say or do hurtful things. A problem that goes right back to the days of Christ, as He had to deal with such prejudice too.

Would I be right in assuming the way we treat others here reflects our own M? Reflects the respect we have (or don't have) for our spouse or ourselves? So anyone flaming another person is really telling a lot about themselves and the way they are handling a crisis.

Then again, there are very sensitive people (both BS and WS!) that will take anyone who doesn't agree with them as "agressors" who are "attacking" them, even if this really done in a caring, considerate way. Hey.. I'm not talking about anyone in particular here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sometimes it's a phase that people go through, being so hurt and confused they simply can't take it if anyone tells them that MAYBE they could look at things from another perspective. Both BS and WS can go through this phase. Fog, if you will.

betrayedinjersey:
I KNEW I shouldn't have returned to this thread..but it started off REALLY WELL...with the best of intentions. And then it took a slippery turn. And then it got worse. And now this....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair! <hr /></blockquote>If you scroll up to my FIRST response...this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about.

So having been both the WP and the BP and being a professional who specializes in infidelity let's look at this idea of pain and validating it.

I think we can all agree that an affair is a terribly destructive and unethical choice. If someone ended up "happily ever after" one could, conceivably, make an argument for it being ethically above board. But that's not what happens. Everyone gets hurt - the triangle and the people surrounding those involved. We could even make an argument that infidelity has grim effects on all aspects of life in our culture including our national economy when one factors in the time lost due to obsessing about an affair (on any side of the triangle).

Originally this site was directed primarily at helping BP's understand what they needed to do in order to bring about an end to their mate's affair and then the steps necessary to restore their marriages. Over time and with the explosion in internet use the composition of the visitors who come here has changed. We have far more WP's than we did even a few years ago. That makes for a volatile mix - as we've seen this week in particular.

But if we go back to the original purpose of this board I think we can agree that it is about MARRIAGE BUILDING. Ending an affair, taking the steps to reconcile, and then doing the very hard work of recovery. The addition of a fair number of WP's and FWP's doesn't change that - although we tend to forget it now and again.

That being the case - we need to look at how best to accomplish that goal. We can go about it two different ways. We can stick with the older paradigm of being primarily a place of support for the BP - and not look at or acknowledge the pain of the WP. There's nothing wrong with that (as long as it remains respectful) and we should then let WP's know that they might want to find or start another place of support for themselves.

Or we can shift our internal paradigm toward the idea of supporting the WP through their pain and withdrawal - with the understanding that they cannot work on their marriage until they go through that process. This is a marriage advocating strategy.

Doing so - acknowledging and validating this pain IN NO WAY condones an affair. It only accepts what is. And in doing so creates the space for the WP to be supported in a return to the marriage.

If this galls you, and you cannot conceive of doing such a thing, that is perfectly ok. It may or may not be something you can do in the future and it is possible it is not ever going to be a role you play in advocating for marriage. What is not ok is to disrespect the humanity of another person, no matter what s/he has done or not done.

But, conversely, to deny that the WP has pain, is grieving, and needs to go through a very real process of withdrawal does a significant disservice to the goal or saving and healing marriages. It is tatamount to refusing to acknowledge the need for any addict to go through withdrawal and his or her need for support during that time. Supporting an addict of any type (and infidelity is every bit as much an addiction as drugs, alcohol, gambling, religion, work, etc.) does not condone the addiction itself. More than anything it helps the addict move to a better place sooner than would have happened without support.

The private board that I host allows people to talk safely about the pain they experience. It allows them to grieve. It allows them to struggle with the desire to contact the AP. But not once has there been a hint of condoning an affair. Not once has there been a hint of sentimentality about a lost chance at happiness. Sure - people struggling with a newly ended affair will post that they fear such a thing is their fate. And to the last one - every single person who has been through the ending of an affair and the subsequent withdrawal will encourage them to stay out of contact, to stay in the marriage, and to post when they feel weak.

This private community of people is one of the most respectful I've encountered. They are also highly desiring of wanting to heal their marrriages. The regret they feel is intense. So is their pain. To deny that will only serve to harm their marriages - and our hope to turn the tide against infidelity.

C

Cerri- thank you for that thoughtful, intelligent and compassionate post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What is not ok is to disrespect the humanity of another person, no matter what s/he has done or not done <hr /></blockquote>And I can say I've never done that.

I've done by part to help WS and BS alike, never casting stones at a WS for their pain associated with the repercussions of their actions. In reality, I'm quite the opposite, encouraging the WS to forgive themselves, to be patient.

What I can't identify with, and just can't "get my arms around"...is how professing how much the OP and the A is being "missed"...helps the Marriage.

To me...it says exactly the opposite.... whatever time a WS spends on the fantasy, the ended A, the missed OP... is time stolen away from the TRUE task at hand..and that IS recovering the marriage isn't it ?

Recovery isn't for the faint of heart, and it's not something that will be successful if both spouses aren't "in it all the way". And how can the WS be "in it all the way" if their is still emotional attachment to the OP consuming their thoughts ?

This is all merely speculation on my part, because as I've stated previously, I can really only base my OWN opinions on my OWN experience, and my OWN FWH. Just like everyone else.

My FWH went through withdrawals from the OW. He had to. His brain was full of dopamine, he craved seeing her and talking to her, because it made him "feel" good.

Once he went through those withdrawals, he was able to come back to the M, fully and completely. Now that he has defogged, the only time wasted on the OW is the time that I MYSELF waste thinking about her.

This is all a process, is it not? Remember how long CV's H went through withdrawals? She had to live with that, up close and personal. And now he doesn't love the OW anymore. That is a process, and things in a process cannot be skipped, I don't think.

What say you, BIJ friend??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HUGS

Spidey

betrayedinjersey:

What I can't identify with, and just can't "get my arms around"...is how professing how much the OP and the A is being "missed"...helps the Marriage.

I know. I've come to the conclusion that most things marriage are completely counter-intuitive. Really is a pain in the you-know-what if one does this for a living.

To me...it says exactly the opposite.... whatever time a WS spends on the fantasy, the ended A, the missed OP... is time stolen away from the TRUE task at hand..and that IS recovering the marriage isn't it ?

Mmmmm..... let's separate out a couple of things here. Acknowledging and being validated on feelings of pain and loss is not the same as living in the fantasy of 's/he was my soulmate and I'll never be happy without her/him.'

If for some reason I was forced today to give up chocolate forever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I would undergo severe feelings of loss, withdrawal, and craving. If those who were in a position to support me through those things denied my right to those feelings or tried to rationalize why I should not be feeling that way my natural human inclination would be to state them even more vehemently and more loudly - until I was heard.

That is not the same thing as refusing to look at the need to eliminate chocolate from my life and recognizing the destruction it might have done. I can both miss something and understand its impropriety at the same time.

I think it might have been Harley who drew the analogy between taking a drink of something that tasted wonderful and then finding out it was deadly poison. Spitting it out and wanting to get it entirely out of one's system does not change the fact that the yummy taste still lingers.

But back to this idea of validating in order to allow someone to move on. I would suggest taking the position of observer in any argument - either here or elsewhere - and seeing this dynamic at play. When people and their feelings/opinions are given recognition (not the same as agreeing with them) they are more ready to move on and to hear the opposite pov. But when they are denied, ridiculed, or worse, the natural instinct is to continue to repeat one's pov until feeling heard.

Basic negotiation and child rearing dynamics. Applies to almost all interactions between human beings.

Recovery isn't for the faint of heart, and it's not something that will be successful if both spouses aren't "in it all the way". And how can the WS be "in it all the way" if their is still emotional attachment to the OP consuming their thoughts ?

They can't. Until the A ends and the chemical soup, as Star calls it, leaves the brain there isn't a whole lot the WP can do to reengage in the marriage. So the real question then is - what can we, as marriage advocates, do to encourage that to happen sooner? Instead of encouraging them to repeat over and over again with more and more force the amount of pain and loss they feel - until they believe they are heard (or worse, simply give up and shut down) we can hear, acknowledge, and then gently encourage them to continue to move forward.

This is all merely speculation on my part, because as I've stated previously, I can really only base my OWN opinions on my OWN experience, and my OWN FWH. Just like everyone else.

My personal experiences include working with members on all sides of the triangle.

C

Hey Spidey...
I don't want to be misunderstood. And you know me well enough to know I'm appreciative of the entire spectrum.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />That is a process, and things in a process cannot be skipped, I don't think <hr /></blockquote>I think I'm really taking a stand on a particular issue..that reared at least once before...and WANTS to come up again. I know you remember what I'm talking about...the thread that seemed to go on forever about the FWW and their ...severe withdrawal from the OM ?

I can remember not partaking in any of that nonsense..but KNOWING...that their BH were reading these posts...just caused unbelievable shock to my system. How awful for these guys..to have to read this stuff !

I remember how awful it was for ONE particular BH...to see the same crap everyday....the comparing NOTES stuff.

Withdrawal...sure...it exists...for different people...at different levels. There is a profound difference between acknowledging it...working THROUGH it...and wallowing in it. And I'm afraid of the wallowers.... just speaking for ME of course.

oh...and by the way...you aren't allowed to exitous ! When it gets too overwhelming...you do the same thing I do...take you butt HOME to the Recovery Forum. It really IS like 2 different forums...doesn't it ?

betrayedinjersey:
the thread that seemed to go on forever about the FWW and their ...severe withdrawal from the OM ?

I can remember not partaking in any of that nonsense..but KNOWING...that their BH were reading these posts...just caused unbelievable shock to my system. How awful for these guys..to have to read this stuff !

Oh yes! Horribly painful and not helpful to the BP. That's why we have a private board. We know that WP needs to go through this process but thta for the BP to read it - ouch.

I remember how awful it was for ONE particular BH...to see the same crap everyday....the comparing NOTES stuff.

Comparing notes on how to get through the day and not call the AP? Great idea. Comparing notes on how wonderful the A and the AP were - absolutely not acceptable.

Withdrawal...sure...it exists...for different people...at different levels. There is a profound difference between acknowledging it...working THROUGH it...and wallowing in it. And I'm afraid of the wallowers.... just speaking for ME of course.

Definitely. Wallowing is never helpful. You can have about 30 seconds to wallow (which is always backwards looking) and then you need to be challenged to move forward -- while still having the fact that it's painful acknowledged.

C

BIJ, I get you, girlfriend. And I LOVE the way you phrase your opinions and thoughts in an open manner. I know sometimes emotions run high here. I just hate reading about people getting flamed. I think there are better ways.

If we didn't share feelings, and exchange ideas, I don't know if I personally would be on the recovery boards! I won't be leaving. I shouldn't have said that. I was being a "drama queen." these boards are too addictive.

See you over in Recovery soon, on our safe and comfy and warm thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just a few thoughts. As much as I hated it, I couldn't deny that my H was going through withdrawal and pining over the woman that caused me the worst pain in my entire life. Until she came into our lives, our M, we were always able to get to the other side of difficult times and be close again. I also realized that he had to go through this. I wanted him to post here and get it out, and hopefully have FWSs help him get through it. I sure as HE%% didn't want to read any of his posts because I knew he'd be writing about grieving OW.

I remember when H was in the height of withdrawal I read some posts from WSs in withdrawal. It caused me to feel so sick, sad, and probably hopeless. I didn't begrudge these people their feelings, but just hearing how they missed the OP was yet another kick in the gut, because I knew that was where H was. During one session with Steve Harley I told him about this. I'm sure I was in one of my "I'm just going to throw in the towel" stages. He told me flat out to stay away from any WS' posts who are going through withdrawal. I did just that from that day forward. Not because I thought those folks were bad, but because it was really setting me back in even wanting to recover.

At some point on MB, in the beginning of my ordeal, someone posted about how the BS shouldn't be so grahic in expressing their feelings, especially regarding the OP. I remember writing something like, "Please don't take away the freedom I have here to vent. To get my feelings out." In the beginning THAT is what kept me somewhat sane, helped me feel not so alone, helped me get out the feelings that come from being betrayed by the one you love and trust.

I find lately on MB that I'm hesitant to state some of my feelings on here. It's only been 9 months, and I know wherever I am is where I am. But at times there even seems to be a judgment for the BS to just move on. So times like now, when I'm not sure I can get over this, I'm hesitant to really let that out. At other times I'm hesitant to let out my somewhat black humor, especially about the OW, which has also helped me through this ordeal.

I guess what I'm saying by this very long post is this. Adultery sucks! The pain is enormous. My H says if he had a clue of the pain it would cause all of us he never would have had an A, no one would. From d-day to recovery it is a long road, with so many feelings. Maybe what we need to do is just censor ourselves in the sense of not reading everyone's threads. Just like I had to not read withdrawing WS posts, people don't have to read my venting posts. I agree we all should be respectful, but do we have to censor our feelings? For me, the people here have been such a blessing, BS and WS alike, because so many of you know what I'm going through. CV

CV55:
What a wonderfully balanced and thoughtful post.

I guess what I'm saying by this very long post is this. Adultery sucks! The pain is enormous.

Yes it does. And yes it is.

My H says if he had a clue of the pain it would cause all of us he never would have had an A, no one would.

Oh yesss..... I often think that the regret the WP lives with is far more haunting than just about anything. And terribly tragic.

From d-day to recovery it is a long road, with so many feelings. Maybe what we need to do is just censor ourselves in the sense of not reading everyone's threads.

Excellent idea.

I agree we all should be respectful, but do we have to censor our feelings?

When people are first finding out they are frantic and panicked and pretty much out of control. That's to be expected. But no matter where you are on the spectrum of finding out to recovery there is a difference between talking about how you FEEL and being disrespectful toward someone else.

For instance, saying, "I can't believe this is happening to me. I'm so angry I want to run away and then I think I want to hurt someone. I'm crying all the time. I trusted him and he betrayed me and I AM SOOOOO PI**ED," is completely acceptable.

So is, "OP knew we were married, trashed his/her own marriage, didn't respect ours, is destroying my kids' home, and I can't stand the sight of him/her. In fact, I wish s/he would drop off the planet and never come back. S/he completely betrayed my trust."

Both of those things - and I'm sure you could add a whole lot more and do it better - are about you and how you feel.

But calling names - slut, whore, *****, sleaze, [censored], (I wonder how many of these will get **'d) is not. It attacks the person and not the action and it is not in any way a discussion of your feelings. It also keeps you stuck in the horror of the affair rather than encouraging you to take proactive steps to protect your marriage and take care of yourself.

For me, the people here have been such a blessing, BS and WS alike, because so many of you know what I'm going through.

Agreed. My MB friends kept me alive through the worst times and made it possible to heal a marriage no one thought would survive.

C

Thanks Cerri! Concerning how I speak of OW, guilty as charged. In fact, I'm sure that a few choice words came out on MB regarding my H also. There were and are times it is even difficult for me to call her OW. Sorry! What I tell my FWS buddies on MB is this. When I let my anger out it has nothing to do with them. It has to do with my very own personal H and OW. I am getting better, but sometimes the only thing I can call her is the "B". Sorry again! I know I'd be breaking rules over on SYMC.

As a side note, thanks for that site and the work you are doing to help people recover from this disaster. Oprah had an A show on the other day. The therapist almost made it seem like it is self-destructive to stay in a M after an A. Maybe that is just the way I took her. The thing is one year ago I thought the same thing. Actually days like today I think that. People like you and Steve give us hope that there really can be a good M after an A. So thanks! CV

See, I had an entirely different experience and didn't really have strong feelings for the OW's. For my husband? That's a different story entirely.

The reason I am so adamant about the need for respect and the very real danger disrespect poses to self, spouse, and marriage is that I do disrespect better than most. An extensive vocabulary and razor sharp wit are not a blessing when they are turned against someone else.

It's taken years of hard work to tame that demon. (And it still gets out of its cage on occassion.) But if I only worked to keep in it check at home and let it roam free elsewhere (such as here) I would fail. As do those who think they can throw temper tantrums at work or on the highway and be calm and respectful at home. The human psyche doesn't work that way.

(Respectfully yours,)

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:
I do disrespect better than most. An extensive vocabulary and razor sharp wit are not a blessing when they are turned against someone else.

It's taken years of hard work to tame that demon. (And it still gets out of its cage on occassion.) <hr /></blockquote>~LOL~

Made me think of the "Amy letters" .... and I had to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Try not to be too perfect Cerri .... your imperfections are very interesting traits.

Pep

Cerri - Thankyou for your thoughtful post. I have posted here quite a bit and seen how poorly WS's (especially WW) are treated at times. Now when I post to them, I advise them to go to saveyourmarriagecentral.

Suzet - I email brokenvessel, and she is doing very well, no thanks to this board. What really got me was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.

Also not posting anymore is CrazedLove, RAP, and Bostenor. Plus there have been many others who I can't remember.

believer,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have posted here quite a bit and seen how poorly WS's (especially WW) are treated at times. Now when I post to them, I advise them to go to saveyourmarriagecentral.

Suzet - I email brokenvessel, and she is doing very well, no thanks to this board. What really got me was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't understand,,,If you dislike this place so much,,why stay? Seems terribly disrespectful to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I keep posting here because this place has saved me. I am the BS. But I still think that the WW's here are not treated very well. Sorry.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have posted here quite a bit and seen how poorly WS's (especially WW) are treated at times <hr /></blockquote>Believer, I think everyone here, is treated poorly from time to time. BS included... we've recently been accused of self righteous attitudes.

For every WS you've named that no longer posts on the board, I wonder how much really has to do with this board.

As I recall...RAP.... was never treated poorly, I saw many BS exercise courtesy and kindness during some of their most difficult times.

Many Mbers...both WS and BS reached out to them both..and we think of them always. And her BS...doesn't post here so much either... not because he was chased away either...but maybe this board wasn't really going to help them. We have to accept this board isn't going to help everyone. It doesn't mean that we haven't done our part..it just means this wasn't a good avenue for them.

Just because someone leaves the board, don't assume that the board "drove them away". For every WS that you think has been driven from the boards...I can name 2 more that have stayed strong..and become posts I look forward to. Especially a few of our newer FWWs.... SadFWW, Myrta...to name a few. (Don't mean to single anyone out..forgive me...) but they are strong women...and they take responsibility..and they take the 2X4 they get from time to time...and they RUN with it..knowing the best interest of their marriage is all that really counts.

Like I said earlier...recovery isnt't for the faint of heart...and it's a tough road. Some people just won't see the proverbial light we hope they see...because it's all just our opinions anyway.

On my part...I love to read what the FWHs have to say..because MAYBE...just maybe..it's something my own H feels.... and hasn't expressed to me.

Don't you think the same works for the WS as well ? Maybe just maybe... reading something another BS writes..sheds some light on what their OWN BS is feeling. I wonder how many of us TRULY let our WS know how badly this really feels ?

I believe there is a lot of transference that takes place here, and I've wacked a BS or two myself for bombarding a NEW WS with questions and harshness.....out of desperation trying to understand what is happening to their WS. They are unable to lash out at their own WS... because that wouldn't be in the best interest of their recovery..so sometimes...it comes out here...and it's a vent maybe...but it's out... nobody usually takes offense and we go on merry little way.

So I'll ask you.... because I keep reading this point advocated VERY strongly by you...should MB be for BS only ? Because you surely don't think it's a good place for the WS.

And on that side of the coin... what purpose will the board serve..if only BS are here ?

EVERYONE has to exercise a little more tolerance and kindness. We should never implement the "flight" rule. What is that saying ? When it gets too tough... leave ? That leads me right back to the recovery. In recovery...you beter BE tough, that's the hardest work to be done.

Cerri, if you're still hanging out on MB I'll tell you why the OW gets more of my wrath than H. Believe me he has gotten his share too over the months. It bothers me that I knew her for 4 yrs. Granted that doesn't even compare to a BS's pain whose BF had an A with their H. But that fact bothers me greatly. It bothers me that she knew my boys and didn't give a rat's A## that their lives would be torn apart. She actively went after my H(she was his office manager) the year my 15 yr. old nephew died, my uncle, H's dad became increasingly sick and died(the A happened one month after FIL's death), and my dad's failing health and death. She was screwing my H while my dad was dying in the hospital, and wrote him a love letter stating how wonderful the sex was. Am I pissed at my H? You bet! But he tried to stop it several times, and she always told him she'd be there for him physically when he wanted her. That they weren't having an A because they were in-love. (That was my personal favorite) That our boys would be just fine if we D because we brought them up in such a stable environment. I could go on and on. I only treated this woman with kindness over the yrs. I knew her.

Concerning letting my anger out here at times. I have toned it down as the months have gone by. If it weren't for my venting on MB I would have LBed the crap out of H. It really helped to get it out here, have people talk me through the pain, and 2x4 me when I needed it. So it really didn't make me more angry at home. Anyway, just a different perspective. Take Care!

BIJ, good post! I hope the FWSs keep posting. Some of them have helped me greatly and I hope at times I offered them something back. If nothing other than my appreciation.

believer,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I keep posting here because this place has saved me. I am the BS.
<hr /></blockquote>Me too which is why I get quite defensive when I hear so many negative derogatory comments about MB while continuing to post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But I still think that the WW's here are not treated very well. Sorry. <hr /></blockquote>I have yet to see too many posters here that are handled with kid-gloves,,FWS or FBS. It's not always easy to take a serious look at yourself and examine what part you may have played in the breakdown of your marriage. FWS are not nor should be the exception.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Concerning letting my anger out here at times. I have toned it down as the months have gone by. If it weren't for my venting on MB I would have LBed the crap out of H. It really helped to get it out here, have people talk me through the pain, and 2x4 me when I needed it. <hr /></blockquote>OKAY OKAY OKAY..I CONFESS...YES YES..I HAVE THROWN A 2X4 AT YOU FROM TIME TO TIME !! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I'm hanging my head in shame..disgust...oh damn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Glad you liked the post.....it took me awhile to put coherent thoughts together...but POOF...and it magically appeared <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't think the FWWs are going to flee so quickly..... many have already dug their heels in ...and are here for the long haul.

It's like that whole chicken or egg thing you know.... one can't exist without the other.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
Just because someone leaves the board, don't assume that the board "drove them away".<hr /></blockquote>Yes this is true, but this was definitely the case with Broken Vessel. She WAS driven away by some of the posters on this board...and itâ€™s a shame.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />As I recall...RAP.... was never treated poorly, I saw many BS exercise courtesy and kindness during some of their most difficult times.<hr /></blockquote>RAP left the board as a direct result of Broken Vesselâ€™s poor treatment on this boardâ€¦ Just as Broken Vessel, RAP was also in withdrawal, very fragile and early in recovery and she didnâ€™t feel safe posting here anymore after what happened to Broken Vessel. I think if I was in the same stage of withdrawal and recovery at the time than them, I also wouldn't posting here anymore. Luckily while I was in early withdrawal, I mostly lurked here and didnâ€™t post. I felt too vulnerable at the time to post my feelings openly and honestly and after what happened to Broken Vessel I'm glad I didn't...

The ONLY reason Iâ€™m still posting here is:
1) to use my experience to help others and
2) because I still learn from some wise and thoughtful posters on this board.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by believer:
 Suzet - I email brokenvessel, and she is doing very well, no thanks to this board. What really got me was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.<hr /></blockquote>Believer, thanks for this news, Iâ€™m glad sheâ€™s doing well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I would like to e-mail her. Is there a way I can get hold of her address?

Suzet

[ November 04, 2004, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes this is true, but this was definitely the case with Broken Vessel. She WAS driven away by some of the posters on this board...and itâ€™s a shame.
<hr /></blockquote>Suzet...perhaps in BV's case...this could be true...but I'm still leaning toward it being a personal decision. It really depends on the person....look at dreamcatcher...she got beaten up in her first week or two...and I mean HARSHLY beaten up...yet..she is still here.

And ...I think if the same thing happened to YOU... I don't think you'd have gone either...I've read several of your posts. If this was something I saw repeatedly, I'd feel differently, but I still lean towards it being about the person...and not the board.

Betrayedinjersey,

I understand what youâ€™re saying and youâ€™re probably rightâ€¦ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Itâ€™s just, the incident with Broken Vessel was SOOO disappointing and unfair and I struggle to get it out of my head. Maybe if I can get in contact with her it will help.

bij,

You're right that dc stuck around after some harsh replies in the beginning. At that time, she probably felt pretty deserving of those because she hadn't managed to be honest with her spouse about the A. After the other day....when she recieved those kind of replies...AFTER confession....I think she has now left. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

oops - double post

[ November 04, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My H says if he had a clue of the pain it would cause all of us he never would have had an A, no one would.<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately people who have experienced the pain of being a BS often go on to become OP's/WS's - I have seen it over and over on these boards and in real life.

I have not seen any evidence that WS's are treated particularly harshly on this board compared to BS's. I think the reverse is often the case. BS's have been told over and over that they shouldn't even be angry, much less criticize the OW. I have seen a BS who was physically assaulted by her WS's and permanently injured told to just get over it. One poster even told me that my H's affair was my fault because I should have been able to diagnose my H with clinical depression and then learn how to cure it at home. Obviously I should have checked out a copy of "Psychiatry self-taught," but I think hiding Prozac in his breakfast cereal might have been frowned upon by law enforcement authorities.

I do not think this is an appropriate place for non-repentant WS's to come - and truly repentant WS's would be more than willing to "grovel."

I've thought about this one for a long time...

Most of the excuses for not wanting to grant WS's their own forum revolve around the fear that they they might "romanticize" their affair to each other.

I can see how the BS might fear this...it would be hurtful to read it. That's why it would be a WS forum.

Has anyone considered that perhaps examining the "romantic" feelings could be a natural step to healing?

The only other possibility for denying the WS a safe place to discuss their feelings is that some BS DO NOT WANT to see an adulterer heal...they WANT to see them HURT like they have been hurt. By forcing them into the closet, they have to contain their pain and carry it around. GOOD - We deserve that at the very least for what we've done, don't we? Well, at least it's not dragging us into the town square and stringing us up.

I can't imagine that any compassionate adult would want this.

Low, as I said to Cerri, it's very painful for a BS to read the withdrawal feelings of a WS. Especially when his/her S is going through the same thing. I told her Steve Harley told me to stay away from those posts, and I did.

I hope you maybe know me well enough to realize I believe the WS has to work through these feelings, as much as that sucks for the BS. That is why I am so glad my H went into IC immediately. This is just a thought. If there was a forum for WSs in withdrawal to work through their feelings, with FWSs who have been through it helping them, and BSs who can handle it. Just an idea. I have so appreciated people like you, Comfortably Numb, Hiker, and others giving me and others your perspective. I'd hate to have recovered WSs leave here. CV

Hey star,
DC is still here...she's posting. It's just not so easy to find her..she doesn't have her own thread...but I posted to her last night.

Low...I'm glad you chimed in...you are one of my favorite FWS...because your fair, what you say makes a lot of sense, and I respect your opinions. Thanks for dropping in !

In taking into consideration, that whole...romanticizing the A... I can see how that may be an issue. I see the GOOD in it, but I also see many a BS, recent to DDAY...fearing of what the WS is discussing in there. Isn't this the case when a couple begins IC and MC, and the IC happens to be the same person ? The anxiety, the BS experiences...about...I don't know what they talked about with the IC.... is on heightened alert.

None of this applies to me directly... so I don't want to speak out of turn, or speak for everyone...just a general sense I get from the boards. I could be wrong...I have been, and will continue to be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OOPS...Suzet..didn't want to NOT respond to you.

Perhaps you related to BV on a very personal level, and something triggered you, and it has no closure for you. We BS go through that all the time... imagine one of our recovery buddies having to deal with renewed contact...or a new A...after being in recovery for a year or two...boy do we panic !!! WE immediately go into overtime...our little wheels are spinning just as fast as they can go.

I think the biggest misconception about the BS is we are out for some type of revenge... VENGENCE IS MINE... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

In MOST cases...and I CAN speak for myself personally here... it is really just the fact that a BS is REALLY REALLY scared. On DDAY... a train came around the corner and flattened us. We didn't see or hear the train coming. Now we're super super cautious...waiting for the train ?

Just an analogy....giving some suggestions of where people are at different points.

edited to add... Suzet...I think it would be a great idea for you to get into contact with BV. It would only serve you both well

[ November 04, 2004, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]

LowOrbit.
That is certainly a point to give some pondering to!

From all the emails I came across between this young unmarried OM and my H; there were very very many romantic feelings between them! UGH!
(I actually threw up after reading them; I was so shocked and heartsick!)

I know after their affair was over, I chose to pretend the 'feelings were also over'; but now I wonder.
WERE THEY?

If they cared so much for one another, how could these FEELINGS just go away because the affair was no longer a secret?

Perhaps us BS could be more understanding to our WS by giving a little more relevance to their 'romantic feelings residue' and not just how WE ourselves our feeling. (But I guess that is what Plan A is all about.)

Everyone of us is selfish in our own way; we each tend to feel our own pain more than we feel other's pain. That is probably just human nature though.

Thanks so much, LowOrbit, for this thought provoking post. Us BS can learn so much from WS that please don't ever leave this MB.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

bij...Thanks for lettting me know...that makes me very happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As far as WS romanticizing the affair on a private forum....I think that's definitely going on at TOW....but in terms of a forum for WS trying to find their way back home, WITHIN a marriage building site, I can only relay what goes on at penny's site. There is NONE of that.

The posts that WS recieve there have very much in common with the posts here....EXCEPT the words used are not "loaded" or trigger words. Those are considered disrespectful and often condemning. But make no mistake....WSs are very much discouraged from wallowing, romanticizing, justifing, etc. It just doesn't happen.

The point of making it private is to help them get past their withdrawal without their words hurting or triggering the BSs on the board. It protects both groups. The BS get no triggers, and the WS don't get "loaded" words filled with judgement or condemnation from folks still raw and angry. It makes it safer for everyone in whatever place they happen to be.

WS are "called to action" to live a way that's authentic, honest and recognizes that while the A might have met needs, been pleasurable, or is difficult to separate from, that it is harmful, hurtful, devastating not just to their spouse, but to their families and their own sense of self. They are given good solid reasons for resisting contact, and when they fail...are given clear, honest, difficult and hard truths about what that means and how it undermines their lives. They are not babied or coddled, but they ARE given worth and encouragement to become better wives/husbands/citizens/parents. A's compromise their whole lives....and while the act of adultery is dispicable....I have yet to meet one of these people who are dispicable.

I think the "image" of a WS forum is one where there are no real hard truths...and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Those who answer are committed to helping WS wake up, defog, face reality...but in a way that offers hope that if they do...they will be happier, they will be right with their God, and they can rebuild their marriage. Tactless 2X4s often just run them off, destroy what little self esteem they feel, and make it harder for them to recognize that they can do/be better and happier. Afterall, if they are going to be condemned anyway....why not live selfishly?

You have to love yourself to be the best you can. Folks who are trying to end As...are actually disrespecting their selves...and while their acts may be selfish..they actually have very little self love. Pleasure orientation is not self love....non-contradictory joy (joy without harming others) is the path to self love. When you live authentically, you care deeply about who you are, as well as others. When you are involved in an A....you can never achieve that because your pleasure means pain for others.

To break free...you must think enough of yourself, you must have enough hope, you must care enough about others to realize that you can never find happiness while harming another person[s]or living a life of duplicity. So a big part of helping a WS to break the addiction of an affair....comes from making them care about who they are....EVEN if no one else is privy to their actions....because often, the BS doesn't even know. When "humanity" and dignity are undermined...it actually undermines the strength to change and to believe in their ability to make this right.

hugs to all

Thanks Starfish for putting into words exactly what I was trying to say with my suggestion.

The fact is I chose to stay in this marriage. To do that I have also chosen to forgive my husband. This was not easy and took a lot of work and soul searching. In other wayward spouses I see here I see my husband. I see them struggling with similar issues that my H did. I witnessed his pain. I know it was real. In my case most of his pain was for the knowledge that he had hurt myself and his family. I am sure some of it sprung from withdrawal from the OW. I can understand this. She had been my best friend and I too was feeling pain at her loss from my life. Despite recognising that her friendship was no longer healthy for me I couldn't just kill my feelings. They were real. And believe me she engendered a whole lot of new feelings, but the old friendly feelings were there.

I wish with all my might that my H would have come to this site. The vast majority of posts to WS that I have seen have in my opinion would have assisted him. He was a very broken man for a while there. I was too caught up at that time with my own grief to be his best support. I also think that encouraging a WS to end affair and turn to his wife is one of the great plusses of MB site. If one comes and is unfortunate enough to trigger someone into an attacking post, they might then leave and miss the input of those who may have guided them. if they had been here a while, then they would probably weather that OK but if it weas early it might scare them off.

That is why I thought a separate forum might have helped.
C&S

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 OOPS...Suzet..didn't want to NOT respond to you.

Perhaps you related to BV on a very personal level, and something triggered you, and it has no closure for you. We BS go through that all the time... imagine one of our recovery buddies having to deal with renewed contact...or a new A...after being in recovery for a year or two...boy do we panic !!! WE immediately go into overtime...our little wheels are spinning just as fast as they can go.

I think the biggest misconception about the BS is we are out for some type of revenge... VENGENCE IS MINE... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

In MOST cases...and I CAN speak for myself personally here... it is really just the fact that a BS is REALLY REALLY scared. On DDAY... a train came around the corner and flattened us. We didn't see or hear the train coming. Now we're super super cautious...waiting for the train ?

Just an analogy....giving some suggestions of where people are at different points.

edited to add... Suzet...I think it would be a great idea for you to get into contact with BV. It would only serve you both well <hr /></blockquote>Bij, thank for the note. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Yes, your are right â€“ I indeed related with BV on a very personal level... Not because I was in the same stage of recovery than her (when she started posting here I was already recovered), but because I could personally identify and empathize with her specific struggles and feelings of early withdrawal and severe depression.

Bij, I think most FWSâ€™s on this board certainly donâ€™t have the conception that BSâ€™s is out for some type of revengeâ€¦but I can understand why BSâ€™s might sometimes feel or think that wayâ€¦ There is SO many emotions, triggers etc. on this board for both BSâ€™s and WSâ€™s and I think sometimes this is the main reason for misconceptions and misunderstandings between posters. Everyone experienced different feelings, emotions, struggels etc. and don't always understand each other's viewpoints and feelings.

As Iâ€™ve said before, my personal impression is that most of the BSâ€™s posting here is understanding and tolerant of the feelings and inner struggles of a WS, but sometimes it is the harsh, insensitive and unnecessary remarks throwing into the face of a repentant and remorseful FWS which is very disturbing and upsetting. Sometimes no patience is shown for FWS's struggles to cope with withdrawal and residual feelings for the OP... But I understand sometimes the same happen to BSâ€™s and the struggels with their own specific feelings, so it goes both ways. But...because Iâ€™m FWS, I can more easily sympathize and empathize with other FWS's (especially FWW's) who are repentant and remorseful, but still struggling with those feelings... And I think the same is true for BSâ€™s â€“ they can more easily identify and empathize with other BSâ€™s.

I agree itâ€™s necessary to have both BSâ€™s and FWâ€™s on one board to give each other insight, input etc., but for various reasons (which will benefit both BSâ€™s and WSâ€™s) I think a separate board for FWSâ€™s in withdrawal and early recovery will be useful.

Blessings,
Suzet

[ November 05, 2004, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

Hello all,

I'm wondering why there is a need for a separate forum for WS (and then perhaps one just for BS too?) on MB. As I read here there obviously IS a forum for WS on another site. So if one really feels the need to go there, they are free to do so. This isn't my first forum, I looked around until I found a good place for myself.

I have been amazed at the wisdom and the compassion I have encountered here at MB. And yes, of course, most of us slip up here and there. I must confess I also made a remark to BV that I felt uncomfortable about the way she kept calling out to JL exclusively. Because I would also feel uncomfortable if some male BS would always ask for me. Maybe I was wrong to project my feelings there. I'll be more careful next time. I still think I was correct, but maybe I shouldn't have spoken up, however gently.

There are many emotions here. We would need a lot of forums if we were to compartmentalise them all, so no-one would get "whacked" by some other poster who has a different viewpoint. In fact, I post most of my own questions here to GET a different viewpoint.

Would we then need a forum for:
- angry BS's who need to vent
- new BS's who don't want to listen to anyone, but just want to complain and wallow
- BS's in recovery
- unrepentive WS in the middle of an A
- repentive WS's in withdrawl
- WS's in recovery
etc. etc. ?

In my opinion, that's what we would need to make sure no-one EVER gets hurt or feels they need to leave. I have seen BS who are very upset because they're (gently) told they need to calm down a little. Some new BS/WS don't listen to anyone. People take a lot of time to carefully phrase excellent advice for them, and those BS/WS just keep on repeating the same stuff as if they're "alone in the room". Or they are terribly offended if anyone doesn't agree with their point of view. They feel "attacked" even by the wisest and unjudgemental of people here.
Luckily, most of them come to their senses after a while - so did I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I agree with what another poster said, recovery is rough, and I for one needed to get more understanding of my H's and OW's (ex-BF) mindset. Like a WS needs to get more understanding of their BS's mindset. I learned a lot from what others post here, in all mindsets, and I thank them all for being here.

Please - let's no make ghetto's here. Let's all learn how to be more respectful. In real life there are no separate places to go either, unless we want to make ghetto's. A M in recovery is a very mixed place to be.

I'm sorry if I ever offended anyone.
((((((MB'ers))))))

[ November 05, 2004, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]

* applauds brownhair *

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please - let's no make ghetto's here. Let's all learn how to be more respectful. In real life there are no separate places to go either, unless we want to make ghetto's. A M in recovery is a very mixed place to be.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for saying this brownhair... I guess this is the solution to the problems on this board. Respectfulness between ALL posters wonâ€™t make a separate board for anyone necessary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've been trying to think of an analogy that might illustrate why a separate forum would be beneficial...

In the context of marriage building, waywards and former waywards are sort of like the "learning disabled" children in a school. We are dealing with "drug" issues, possible emotional handicaps. We act out. We behave like children. Regardless of how we became damaged (e.g. self inflicted), we are still damaged nonetheless.

So, if we attempt to address the special needs of those who are "differently abled"" in a respectful manner, do you think it is more effective just to subject the child (wayward) to the rough wild world, or would you rather address the special needs of that child (wayward) in an environment that preserves their dignity. Eventually, the child (wayward) grow up and takes their place in the larger community...but in both cases they may not be able to do that without some special assistance.

But, just as in school special needs programs, bad behavior is not tolerated. It is just dealt with differently.

There have been many discussion about how people are jsut telling the "truth" here. There is no denying that truth can be quite absolute. It is our perception of that truth that is VERY relative.

For example, I might argue with you the the Rocky Moutains don't exist becasue I can't see them from where I am, yet you may live in Aspen and you firmly perceive that they do. Communicating their existence to me in ways that are I perceive as disrespectful will not convince me that they do. You'll only convince me that you don't care about me.

So, if you intend to communicate truth to an individual, it is your responsibility to structure that communication in a way that will be most effective. Otherwise, at worst, you are just being mean. At best, you're ineffective.

I'm glad SYMC has setup such a forum. I've recently joined myself. When I share there, my objective is to try to meet newbies WHERE THEY ARE, and not to try and drag them to where I am.

At various stages of my recovery I've demonstrated a lot of different attitudes and behaviors in this forum. Some have accused me of being inconsistent. I would like to think that I've been learning and growing and the statements I made a year ago were made by a different, most likely less mature, person.

I think if someone has made the effort to come to this forum and asked for help, they are most liekly quite conflicted and broken. A 2x4 is probably the last thing they need to start with. In an ideal WS help forum, 2x4s and egos get checked at the door (right, Star?)

Low

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LowOrbit:

But, just as in school special needs programs, bad behavior is not tolerated. It is just dealt with differently.

There have been many discussion about how people are jsut telling the "truth" here. There is no denying that truth can be quite absolute. It is our perception of that truth that is VERY relative.

For example, I might argue with you the the Rocky Moutains don't exist becasue I can't see them from where I am, yet you may live in Aspen and you firmly perceive that they do. Communicating their existence to me in ways that are I perceive as disrespectful will not convince me that they do. You'll only convince me that you don't care about me.

So, if you intend to communicate truth to an individual, it is your responsibility to structure that communication in a way that will be most effective. Otherwise, at worst, you are just being mean. At best, you're ineffective.
Low <hr /></blockquote>Applause! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope you don't mind me quoting you Low. This is something you said at the end of a long post on one of my threads last winter. You were speaking of MB in general, not P/C. At the time, I remember thinking, "Wow, he really nailed it--that's exactly how I see it"! There have been times since you've said it, where my feelings have been hurt, but then I remind myself of what you said, and then I'm able to put things into perspective, and I get over it quickly. Here's what you said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />... I have received a lot of helpful advice from this board. I'm grateful for that. But I never believed for a second that I really "belonged" here.

So, I don't offer this as a plea for any kind of change, but only as an honest observation of how this board really operates when it comes to WS and FWS. We can quote the rules all day long, but at the end of the day WS and FWS are still riding in the back of the bus.
<hr /></blockquote>I've been treated pretty darn well over at P/C, but I've also always been respectful in what I say, and how I say it. Still I've always felt like I don't really fit in, never completely trusted, nor taken seriously, even when I give good, solid MB advice.

Because of the added stress and emotion on P/C with the issues of an OC, there is even less latitude to speak freely than there is here. I've constrained myself many a time from posting some of the struggles I've gone through in my M recovery as the FWS.

Then there is the inflammatory speech. I'm sorry, but I've witnessed a double standard. I've seen many a time where a BS says "off-color" things, and gets away with it. Yet, I know if I dared to say something similar, I'd be flamed. It's just the way it is.

Do I want a separate board for WS, though? NO. I've learned far too much from all types of people, wearing all types of "labels". I think each of us have a lot to offer, and as long as we are respectful in HOW we post, it should not matter which label we wear.

~ad

Low and Autumn - (and anyone else who is still reading --)

Two things I want to comment on -

First how WP's and FWP's are perceived and treated.

I think from the start of my time at MB I've been quite open about the fact that I am a FWW. Not only did I have an affair with my ex's bf and then kick my H out of our home, but my current H and I are technically an affair couple. I wouldn't have seen it that way at the time, which does not make it ok, but it was an entirely different dynamic than the first A.

However, not once, even for a moment have I felt somehow different or looked down on here at MB because of that fact. I'm trying to figure out why my experience is so different from what you describe. And, I know you know I'm not in any way invalidating your experience, just wondering why mine has been different.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. By the time I came to participate actively in the forum (I have a much older registration that I can't even remember now I read but didn't post much or at all) I was well into the relationship with my husband. In fact -- I think --- yes, we were already married by the time I began actively posting. And I was dealing with issues in my current marriage so those perhaps overshadowed the 'how' of where we were. I didn't come here at the end of or while ending my first affair - this place didn't exist then and SAA had not yet been written. There was no help for either me or my ex h.

(Mmmmmm...... and that brings a sidebar thought to mind ...... IF this place had been available in 1996 and I had come here then would it have served to help me end my affair and heal my marriage (and keep my family together!) or would it have traumatized me more and left me both hating and dreading the marriage advocacy community. And if we extrapolate that out - what amazing advocates of the future are we destroying if we treat them badly?)

Another thing that is perhaps different about my experience and that of some others is my extensive knowledge and understanding of the MB concepts. Even before I trained as a coach with Bill Harley and mentored for weekend couples there is nothing you could ask me about MB that I wouldn't know. Being in a really bad marriages does have some benefits <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> - I've counseled with Jenn (when she still did in person counseling) coached with Steve, gone to the weekend as a couple, worked with Dr. Bill via email for close to 6 months, read almost every MB book more than once (and can find documentation about anything you want to know in less than 5 minutes), listened daily to Bill's radio show and later weekly when he moved to that format, (I still do when I get a chance) and read every piece of information on the main site -- all before I came here as a poster. That made a big difference in how I was perceived and how I was treated. Still does.

I have never once felt like an outsider. Been beat up twice - once for knowing too much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and once for insisting that MB concepts can and should apply regardless of the religion of the individuals - but not for much else. Had some great discussions where there was an agreement to disagree - but never been treated with disrespect.

Also - I've found that having been the WP gives me a whole lot of insight into the affair process and that people on both sides really appreciate that. I have tons of email from people thanking me for being able to share with them what their WP might be going through. All FWW have the potential to offer that insight to others in need of help.

Another thing that perhaps is different is that I rarely if ever posted at GQII. I spend the first 9 months at EN and then moved to JFO when a friend found out about his wife's affair. And, after my first months here rarely posted anywhere other than that thread. You probably don't remember it but it set a record (I see the Jelly! thread has only just surpassed the number of posts but not pages..) It was few and far between that I sought wide ranging advice on my stuff and rarely dropped in on other's threads. In fact - the few of us on our "little" thread thought we were the only ones who read there - we had no idea there were lurkers coming every day to check out the local soap opera. It wasn't until well after a year into that thread that people started posting to me asking direct questions.

I wonder if the experience posters have here doesn't have a whole lot to do with how they interact and what they know?

Ok - the other thing I was struck by in your post was the reference to absolute truth. I believe there are absolute facts but not really absolute truth. I also think that the only thing any of us can be honest about is what we experience personally. We can be honest about our feelings, what we see around us, what we do, and about facts that present themselves to us. But other than that? I dunno.

People like to say they are "just being honest" when they state what they are thinking - but when it comes down to it they are giving a biased opinion. Certainly one can say I am honestly stating what I believe - but what one believes is still only opinion -- or judgment. "Honey, I think that dress makes you look like a whale," is certainly an honest expresion of an opinion but it is not truth or fact or even information about the person making the statment. It's a judgment about the dress (and to some degree the person in it).

"Honey, I'm not thrilled with that dress," is an honest statement about one's internal reaction - without judging the dress or the wearer.

I'm taking a series of online classes from the School of Thinking. The first lessons explore in depth the idea of absolute truth and how it has wreaked havoc on society as we know it. Fascinating - and not for the easily offended. The site is http://www.schoolofthinking.org

Alright - I think I rambled all over the place - but it's Friday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Not outright opposed to this concept...yet also not fully behind it either.

Need more info.

(I do recognize the potential benefits...however just like with anything, also see the potential pitfalls and potential misuses).

What I am curious to find out, is how would this board be handled?

Would it be like the P/C "private" board...(needing permission to join or even view)...or just be like any of the other "open" boards here??

Would anyone be allowed to read (and just not post) or what exactly?

Basically HOW do those who support this idea see it working out??
What would be the proposed rules, criteria & etiqutte??

Thanks

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:


Ok - the other thing I was struck by in your post was the reference to absolute truth. I believe there are absolute facts but not really absolute truth. I also think that the only thing any of us can be honest about is what we experience personally. We can be honest about our feelings, what we see around us, what we do, and about facts that present themselves to us. But other than that? I dunno.

C <hr /></blockquote>Cerri-

I think I pretty much agree with you. I tend to think of some "facts" as "truths" (i.e. human beings cannot survive without oxygen). Other then that, our whole perception of the world and those who live in it is colored by our experiences: cultural, religious, gender based etc. When we make non-factual assertion it is in essence our opinion based on our own experiences.

I can't tell you how MB would handle such a board - on the off chance they agreed to even have one. I can tell you that the 'rules and ettiquette' for the private Reclamation Board that I host are exactly the same as for all other boards I host. And that I personally moderate that particular board so I know very well that the rules are not being abused.

Hmmmm..... I thought I could give you a link to my TOS but it seems I can't. Here is what it says:
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Welcome to the Village Gathering - our online discussion forum dedicated to assisting couples whose marriages are in crisis. Our specialty and our focus is Infidelity Intervention from Discovery to Recovery â„¢. Our board moderators are trained to assist you and to point you in the direction of further resources. In addition, the SYMC School of Coaching Students and Mentors are highly visible contributors who can offer invaluable guidance to those in need. We are dedicated to preserving marriages and families and to assisting couples in the work of healing and restoration of love.
The Village Gathering is open to all who wish to read. Only registered members may post replies.

To register please read the following rules of conduct for our Village Gathering and answer the questions directly following. Upon acceptance, your member number will be sent to you in an email.

Weâ€™re looking forward to having you as part of the Village.

All the best,
Penny R. Tupy
Founder and Coach Save Your Marriage Central
Founder and Director SYMC School of Coaching, SYMC Global Village

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Code of Conduct for the Village Gathering online Discussion Bulletin Board

All members are to be treated with the utmost dignity and respect regardless of their marital status, race, creed, color, age, ethnicity, sexual orientation or lifestyle choices.

Differences of opinion are normal and natural. Respectful exploration and conversation regarding those differences is encouraged.

No flaming or disrespect will be tolerated.

Moderators have the responsibility and authority to take action as they see fit in the event of violations of the board rules.

SYMC is a marriage advocacy organization. While we recognize that there are times when divorce is inevitable our goal is to save the marriage and heal the relationship. We do not advise couples or individuals to seek divorce.

No matter what our position on a memberâ€™s personal choices we will continue to treat them with respect and dignity and to remove ourselves from the situation if our own opinions make doing so impossible.

No matter what our position on a memberâ€™s personal choices we treat them with respect and dignity and to remove ourselves from the situation if our own opinions make doing so impossible. <LOL!! I see this is in here twice - I guess I was feeling pretty strongly about it when I wrote this.>

Members are to be aware that online discussions create vulnerability within their own marriages and to be vigilant against creating relationships that endanger their marriage or someone elseâ€™s.

The Code of Conduct also prohibits SYMC members from facilitating an affair in progress, e.g. giving advice designed to strengthen or build a romantic relationship to couples having an affair.

Sexually explicit information or conversations are prohibited and are grounds for immediate removal from the Village.

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This is forum is for discussion and support only. It is not meant to replace or supplant professional coaching or counseling. SYMC Board Moderators and SYMC SoC Students are active members of the forum and their participation is in no way to be taken as professional advice. Penny also contributes to this board and her opinions and thoughts are to be taken as opinions only, not professional guidance, given with less than full information in a public venue. As such, SYMC assumes no liability for the outcome of advice procured at this site. If you need professional coaching please contact our office at 877.416.2657 to make an appointment.
~~~~~

No disrespect, no flaming, remove yourself from a discussion if your opinions are such that you would violate that rule. We don't advise divorce (although we all understand that it happens and support our members when it does - afer we uhmmmm encourage them to take every measure possible first), and NO advocacy of any sort towards infidelity.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />originally posted by cerri: However, not once, even for a moment have I felt somehow different or looked down on here at MB because of that fact. I'm trying to figure out why my experience is so different from what you describe. And, I know you know I'm not in any way invalidating your experience, just wondering why mine has been different.
<hr /></blockquote>Maybe that's just it...maybe it's something I perceive, or how I feel, but not something that actually is ? I don't know though cerri, P/C is a different animal, because I've not sensed it or experienced it personally here on GQ. I have and do however sense it on P/C. In fact, while whining to some of my friends via email in the past, I've used you as an example of someone who is a FWW who is accepted for who and what you are now.

I don't know, maybe it's just a clique thing--but I know in my heart of hearts, I will never be one of the "club", unless God forbid, I post one day saying I'm now a BW. It's different over there, I'm convinced of it. Read there for a bit.

I'm quite sure I don't know MB inside and out as you do, but I know it pretty well, and if I'm not sure of something, I always check the resources before I post. I've given BW lots of MB advice, and still I sense a kind of, "what is she doing, giving advice??". It's never been said, just what I've perceived in perhaps, what hasn't been said.

I feel like P/C is my home though, since that's where I first posted. Yet, when I am struggling with something that I fear could trigger one of the BW, I post it here. I'd rather post it there, as more people know me and my history, but I feel uncomfortable doing so.

~ad

Autumn -
I don't know though cerri, P/C is a different animal, because I've not sensed it or experienced it personally here on GQ. I have and do however sense it on P/C.

You may be very right about that. I've never been there and it's not something that I've had to deal with personally. With clients - yeah - and it breaks my heart. When I was in my 20's I did pregnancy advocacy volunteer work for women with unplanned pregnancies. The one that broke my heart was the woman who had an affair and was pregnant with the AP's child and chose to have an abortion. I felt (and still do, some 20 years later) so sad for her - for all of them.

In fact, while whining to some of my friends via email in the past, I've used you as an example of someone who is a FWW who is accepted for who and what you are now.

ROTFL!! Alright - so being a dyed in the wool coach let me ask you a couple of things - what is it that I do differently? Or what do I do that you don't? Or what don't I do that you do? Is it the over the top arrogance? That takes years to really fully develop <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't know, maybe it's just a clique thing--but I know in my heart of hearts, I will never be one of the "club", unless God forbid, I post one day saying I'm now a BW.

Well, that might be part of it too - because I am that as well.

It's different over there, I'm convinced of it. Read there for a bit.

I will if I get a chance. My web designer has been out for the last week so I'm kinda cooling my heels and not able to do some of the work I should be doing. Poor thing - her dad died two weeks ago and then she got new that her bf is going to the Ukraine for three years and leaves on Sunday.

I'm quite sure I don't know MB inside and out as you do, but I know it pretty well, and if I'm not sure of something, I always check the resources before I post. I've given BW lots of MB advice, and still I sense a kind of, "what is she doing, giving advice??". It's never been said, just what I've perceived in perhaps, what hasn't been said.

Ahhhhhh..... there you go..... so is it others disdain for your right to give advice that you're feeling or is it your own? See - this is where cultivating arrogance comes in handy. I've never questioned my right to give advice or the fact that I know what I'm talking about. I read, I do the research, I ask others for input, I make sure I understand what I'm talking about and then I go with it. And if someone doesn't like it for one reason or another (try being 'just a coach' in a professioanal field populated by therapists) they can take a flying leap - it's their loss not mine.

So my question is - who needs to believe that you have the right to state what you think and why - others or you?

I feel like P/C is my home though, since that's where I first posted. Yet, when I am struggling with something that I fear could trigger one of the BW, I post it here. I'd rather post it there, as more people know me and my history, but I feel uncomfortable doing so.

So what if you preface your post with something that says just that? "I'm struggling with something and I don't want to trigger anyone or cause anyone pain but I'd really like input from the people who know me best here at P/C,"?

C

Ah, cerri...

The old relative truth thing...I've spent a lot of years studying on this idea as well...

I suspect this will be something we agree to disagree on as it is a subject best debated among real friends sharing a good red wine...

Remember those college days? Pomp and theosophy...

School of Thinking, eh? Looks interesting.

Of course, good ol' Sam Clemmons could've been on to something when he said "Never let your schoolin' interfere with your education!"

LOL! Later, Low

I suspect this will be something we agree to disagree on as it is a subject best debated among real friends sharing a good red wine...

So, you'll be at J's party next weekend? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course, good ol' Sam Clemmons could've been on to something when he said "Never let your schoolin' interfere with your education!"

Amen! (errrr..... so mote it be!)

C