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Is she ever going to go away?

How do I get OW out of my bed?

I'd really like to be able to enjoy sex again.

It'd be great if she would dissipate like the specter that she is.

This..simultanious broadcast..full stereo surround sound leaves a lot to be desired..one of the things that leads me to question if this recovery is doable in a permanent way.

As it is..creepy and gross.

I'm not having sex with her around forever.

One way or another.

Noodle

[ November 17, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

I'd like to know too <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> How do I get her out of my head? Why do I have to think about her all the time? When do I get my life back? I want to have sex with JUST my husband but it's the three of us all the time. I feel like it's the three of us ALL the time all day and all night. I know it's just me, but how do you change?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{noodle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

wish I knew what to tell you.

Ditto that.

I am tired of seeing her and hearing her.

I know too much.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> This..simultanious broadcast..full stereo surround sound leaves a lot to be desired..one of the things that leads me to question if this recovery is doable in a permanent way.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, I am wondering that too.

Is there some sort of exorcism, do you think?

Do you think the spectres are similarily tormented by visions of us?

I try to recall how cunning and manipulative she was in getting to him- because she had to be, as I do not. And how desperate to have latched onto another womans husband. And how low- to have done so without regard for his relationship with his child. To have actually used her, in our case.

She is almostto be pitied.

Maybe we could burn them in effigy.

Shul..

Are they haunted by us? Wish I could say that I thought so..but I haven't seen/read anything to support it.

Seems for OW..I only sort of exist, and probably you too.

Noodle

OMM is still in our bedroom. Sometimes heâ€™s right in bed with me. Sometimes heâ€™s over by the door. Once in a while heâ€™s rummaging around in the closet. Iâ€™ve heard him in the bathroom more than once.

No matter how hard I try to evict him, he slithers around me and hides in a corner where I canâ€™t see him. Then he slinks out into the room at the worst possible time.

Whenever S_ turns me down for SF, heâ€™s laughing and smirking so loud I bet the neighbors can hear him. Whenever S_ agrees to SF he pokes at me so hard so I canâ€™t perform.

I am beginning to think he will always be here, somewhere. I donâ€™t know what to do any more.

I feel exposed and unsafe.

Everyone says time, time, and more time. Itâ€™s been 11 months since DD2. How much time will it take?

Yes, I need an exorcist.

Or a lobotomy, perhaps?

T

Thos,

For me the 2 year mark is in March..and I don't think she is going anywhere.

MarshaR mentioned that it is always the three of us, all of the time..and I second this.

Frustrating and sad..my only exclusivity cast away for a pair of open legs, now I get to share forever it seems.

The sheer horror that her presence brings, is beyond my ability to articulate or really even comprehend.

We have been to a lot of the same places. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Noodle

The other day he told me he would like long hair on me. I almost asked him if I should dye it red, change my name and get a script from her while I am at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

If I don't deal with this I see a deadly LB coming his way.

Or a (psuedo) revenge affair.

I may not be able to keep this up much longer, bed-wise.

The best outcome would be for him to come to despise the thought of her.

I think I can pray for that in good conscience.

Noodle, you terrify the life out of me but I'm going to answer anyway.

If OM's w gave me the power you are giving this OW, she would be a very foolish woman.

OM adored his w and if I thought that thoughts of me hindered her recovery I would be horrified.

And, conversely, OM is not hindering our recovery. He's GONE, GONE, GONE.

Jen (cowering in fear - seriously Noodle you do that to me)

Noodle
She isn't there. Your fabulous, near poetic descriptions are wasted on me FOR ONCE.

She isn;t in your bed, the bathroom nor your Hs heart.

She is away in a world of guilt and regret and never casting a thought upon you apart from maybe envy now and again that you drive permanently what she could only steal and joyride.

Why do you choose to summon her image when you make love? Is it to remind yourself what a horrible thing your H did just in case you might release yourself to ENJOY having him again ?

I am early in recovery compared to thos and you , and who knows how my head and heart might be affected in future but I know that OM isn't in my bed. When an image DOES attack me I just think "yeah but Squid's here making LOVE with ME. She chose me".
And what Jen says about empowering OW is so very true.

In the same way that we BS had to take back the permission we gave our WS pre-a to make us happy, we can also choose to take back the permission we give to OPs to make us hurt.

Course I'd still pay good money to be able to beat the sh1t out of OM but NOT 'cos he's in me head or my bed. just cos it'd be fun... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

All blessings Noodle ( and Thos).

Jen, A quick question. I donâ€™t understand why/how OM could adore his W and have a lying, sleazy affair.

What is his justification for the A with you?

Does OMâ€™s W even know the whole sordid story, or is OM like mine and still lying through his teeth to his W?

T

KJ,

"Noodle, you terrify the life out of me, but I'm going to answer anyway"

Answer away, I bear no personal animosity toward you.

"If OMs wife gave me the power you give this OW, she would be a very foolish woman"

How do you know she doesn't? Do you think she would confide this very personal wound to you? Read above..I am not alone in this dilema.

"OM adored his wife"

So...he was screwing you in celebration of his adoration? Hang on, I'll get some confetti. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

"If I thought that thoughts of me hindered her recovery, I would be horrified"

Chances are good that you should be horrified

"OM is not hindering our recovery"

If you are certain of that, then please ask your H how he accomplished this, inquiring minds want to know.

"Jen [cowering in fear- seriously Noodle, you do that to me]"

Jen, honestly, I'd cower in fear if I were you too..chances are good that someone has you in their crosshairs..just isn't me.

Noodle

Thos, it's sort of weird, the justification.

I left OM when we were teenagers for someone else because OM was very "easy come/easy go" about our relationship. We never had sex. When I left him he was devastated in a way I have never seen anyone devastated before. I had sex with the boy I left OM for and told OM (ex b/f at that time) I had.

After the person dumped me I went back to OM as a "friend". I had no feelings for him but knew how he felt about me. Still no sex.

I met my H and knew I had met the man I could spend the rest of my life with. OM then gave up and soon after met his future w.

When OM had the A with me he was getting back at the person I left him for, he was getting the sex he never had as a teenager. He seriously did adore his wife. He was proud of her, he thought she was beautiful, he just all round adored her.

I have no idea if that makes any sense at all.

Jen

[ November 16, 2004, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]

Noodle, just read your reply. I'm well aware I'm in someone's crosshairs and it's the first time in my life I have been.

H accomplished it by being unconditionally in love with me and sure of my love for him.

Simple as that.

Jen

Bob..

"Course I'd still pay good money to be able to beat the sh1t out of OM but NOT 'cause he's in me head or my bed..just 'cause it'd be fun"

I hear that. I'd cut her fingers off just to amuse myself..so seeing me seriously p*ssed is not a healthy plan for her I think..and seeing her would indeed make me seriously p*ssed. Best she just cut a wide path around me. I have taken precautions in that area as well.

KJ..

Yes, there IS a discernable..though twisted logic there.

As if he were somehow OWED sex from you. Which would really offend me..but I obviously am not privy to the dynamics of your relationship together.

What he failed to notice is the complete removal of the only person who BELONGS in any equation that includes both sex and him.

Some leftover highschool bullpokey he hadn't laid to rest yet..and *POOF* all over for her wedding vows. Poor woman. Too bad that bit wasn't in the brochure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Noodle, I know it was all crap and stupid justification. On his part and mine. It's all so in the past now for my H and me.

I shouldn't really have got involved in your post. I just don't want you to give her power she seriously doesn't have.

Jen

KJ..

Neither your presence nor your posts have offended me, by all means stay.

You are correct to a point..

she..as in herself..personally..does not have any power over me..care for me..or even necessarily any ill will toward me except in a vague and competition oriented way

but.. ****SHE****

As in..OTHER..that OTHER who intruded and is yet with me..in my dreams..

..and my flesh

and our flesh together..which is not together us any longer but together apart.

She who co-raided my life and took what I can not have back..she haunts me indeed.

And when am I afraid that I am not also angry?

Whistling past the graveyard
Armed for bear.
It's all for nothing
There's no one there.

Noodle

:::Everyone says time, time, and more time. Itâ€™s been 11 months since DD2. How much time will it take?

OK, I'm feeling a little tentative about speaking out because the chair I'm standing on, is balanced on another chair which is standing on a table which is eaten out with woodworm. So, if I fall, in the next some time soon, please don't hold me to anything I'm about to say.

Noodle, Thos, et al, who are wondering whether *time* is all it's cracked up to be? I am 2yrs plus 2 weeks post d-day (but who's counting?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and I am begining to feel a change in my 100% Noodle attitude. In fact Noodle, you sound pretty bad to me at times, but I actually think I've been consistantly worse than you - courtesy of loads of free time and nothing to do but think. (living in Asia without kids, extended family or friends, and not working).

So, it doesn't just go away poof! It is starting to fade a little. I didn't do anything to cause my own improvement. I can only assume that the grief process is doing its thing. I never thought it was possible to heal and I'm not sure that I ever really will. I felt trapped in a situation that had no solution. I couldn't stop feeling the worst pain I'd ever felt in my life and feeling like I was watching my H's A from the front row of the cinema, 18 hours a day. (I've averaged 6 hours sleep for the last 2 yrs)

Noodle, your ability to express the graphicness of the betrayal is second to none here. But, even you will in time experience a change. I am starting to think that it's inevitable that we heal, regardless of how horrific the betrayal and the affront. Centuries of betrayal exist before ours and sayings like 'time is a great healer' have come about because they have been found to be true. There is nothing to do but endure 1. denial 2. bargaining 3. anger 4. depression 5. acceptance.

I have been thru too much pain to claim myself healed. NO WAY. I'm just happy that I've had a few weeks with what feels like the begining of the acceptance stage. A few days ago I slipped and it seemed like I was back at the coal face - but unlike the other times I pulled back and didn't do a repeat performace the next day. So to me, this is almost knuckle biting stuff. Is it the begining of the end for me? Will I achieve the impossible? I really can't say, but I just wanted to share with you that just because you cannot see it happening, doesn't mean that it won't.

Other people who've healed, tend to present their healed state as something that you can DO. e.g. follow MB principles and get a perfect marriage. This would never have worked for me. I had to do the stages of grief and if my marriage didn't survive the process, then tuff luck! I do not believe my marriage will be better than ever. I am starting to wonder if it might eventually be nearly as good as it was (simply because we are so compatible). It will never be as good as it was, never - but this too is part of the acceptance phase.

AN

:::I just don't want you to give her power she seriously doesn't have.

You and your husband have your retirment savings and you meet a man who has a great scheme that will double your money. You trustingly hand it over and he quickly disappears with the lot. You just lost years of effort and hard work, not to mention your belief in humanity.

Two years later after endless agonies - fears for your future, sleepless nights, anger and disappointment that people feel OK about taking what isn't theirs, the police find the man and they get back $230,000 of the $700,000 you lost. The rest is gone. He lived well on your money for the last two years.

Does he have power over you still? (in this scenerio he doesn't even have to go to jail). In an ideal world you would just forget about him and the $470K that you lost - but it doesn't work like that.

AN

Hi Noodle,

Yeah, I still deal with memories of some of the OM... in fact, some more than others... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Time, at least for me, does NOT take the memory away... but the severe pain associated with those memories isn't nearly as sharp.

Anyname wrote: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Other people who've healed, tend to present their healed state as something that you can DO. e.g. follow MB principles and get a perfect marriage. <hr /></blockquote>...Well, I didn't follow the MB principles 100% and I sure don't have a 'perfect' marriage... but my M IS better than I ever dreamed it could be. IMHO, it's not the amount of time that makes the difference, it's what both of you do with that time that makes the difference.

I think that the effort that our WS works on rebuilding the M and reaffirming their love and commitment to us directly impacts the effects of the OP in our lives. Lots of effort by the WS = Less impact of OM/OW... Little effort by the WS = More impact of OM/OW.

So for me, it's a team effort. I've learned that my W can only do so much in helping me get over the OM... and at some point, I must make the choice either dwell on them or let them go...

I've gotten to the point that when their memories come up, I'd much rather let them go and face the wrath of a just God, and focus on things that I can do to build my W up with love...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

::::...Well, I didn't follow the MB principles 100% and I sure don't have a 'perfect' marriage... but my M IS better than I ever dreamed it could be.

It depends what you had to start with. We had enjoyed a long and close marriage (many thought we had the perfect marriage as did I). My H has repeatedly stated that he wants his old life back. He says he was the happiest person he knew before he chose to fall victim to a female, half his age, who approached him for what he thought was "fun times". It hadn't occurred to him that a 26 yo girl wouldn't really want to have fun times with a 50 yo balding man (who could pass for ten yrs older after a big nite out), and that she had a totally different agenda in mind. (money - which she openly asked for)

:::IMHO, it's not the amount of time that makes the difference, it's what both of you do with that time that makes the difference.

It takes a lot of time to accept a husband that chooses to thumb his nose at a happy marriage in favor of a piece of dirt girl whose only English skills are "can you give me money"?

Obviously I didn't feel in the mood to work on a marriage with a man that could sell out for so little. I'd spent 30 yrs of marriage treating him extremely well - I lost the will to work on anything - including living. That's as honest as I can be. I let him work on the marraige and I just tried to survive the hurt.

AN

Dear Noodle, dear Anyname,

two years is a long, long time for you both to still be hurting so much. There has been NC, there was no EA, OW is out of your lives, especially in Noodle's case. That's good... prolonged contact makes it very hard to heal..

Only you can decide to let go. It's like quitting smoking... you know it's bad for you... but it's a habit that's hard to quit. It's annoying if others tell you "you should stop" because you bloody well know that yourself.

At what point will you let go? And get your life back?

noodle,

I'm not in marriage recovery(personal,yes)but I understand the STAIN/SCAR that this OW left on your life.Not everyone can "get over it" or grow beyond it.Times' passing and doing everything to rebuild your marriage is still, sometimes,not a solution.

Even if my WH decided to come back today and wanted to reconcile,I know that that point is over.What remained was the result of the nuke that went off and left me for dead.The exchange of words that caused pain,the thoughts of homewrecker and everytime she spread her legs too that I would never be to get over,the requests for my WH to leave me,the betrayal,the lies,the selfishness,the IDEA that some woman out there is involved with MY(then) WH.The wondering.The thoughts of revenge on the homewrecker(only one way in my mind).

Some acts in life you survive but don't get over.You live another day but the memory of the adultery sits with you like an unwelcomed guest,taunting you with visions that no one wants but,nevertheless,appear.You can try to retrain your mind to not think about these revolting images but it's not so easy.You know there is a scar,you can try to cover it up,but your mind still knows it's there because these people still exist.Your WH is there with you,the physical.But the OW,she is alive too,on the planet somewhere,exisiting which gives her some kind of meaning although she doesn't deserve it.

IMO I feel infinitely better having disconnected from my WH and all that he caused me.I am not saying that you should too but in my case,time was the ENEMY.Much too much time has passed that has slammed the window closed on any opportunity on forgiveness and marriage building.Each day that WH let pass without making a committment to me and our children/family was one more day that I was farther away in mind,body and spirit from this man.

I don't have any specific advice but only wanted to express to you that I understand,to some degree,the depths of what an OW has on your soul and how it affects ALL aspects of marriage,you,your life,rebuilding,people,the world and people's roles in it,etc.You sound like a strong woman to me,as I am,but it doesn't mean that what you had to endure can ever be erased just like anyone else that goes through a traumatic event.

The one person on the earth who was entrusted to protect and care for you ABOVE all other's,made a mockery of that very vow.It's an extremely tough issue to resolve,if you are able to.I can only hope that somehow you and your FWH can find the answers you both need to make the marriage one in which you are both happy and comfortable with.But even more than that,I hope for you the best outcome.Sometimes it's not what we want but what we need.

O

Is she ever going to go away?

Yes ... it's a phantom thought.

How do I get OW out of my bed?

Well... I can only share what worked for me...

ready?

really REALLY *REALLY* rough sex... almost to the point of violent.... my poor hubby almost got an ear chewed off...

Leave your mark....

The OW disappeared when I took over and rode him like a wild woman on a bronco (horse not the Chevy)

I'd really like to be able to enjoy sex again.

Be a sexual bulldozer and plow her under

It'd be great if she would dissipate like the specter that she is.

Take charge... and be scary and loud as hell in the sack.... Be more powerful than the thought of her.

The phantom goes away at around the 2 year mark....

remember

be rough
take charge
scare the hell out of the phantom

Pep

PS... I only recommend this for BW's not BH's ... a different tactic altogether.... I doubt that rough sex with a FWW will do much but scare the FWW!!!!

[ November 16, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

I can tell you my h's ow feels no shadow. I spoke to her on d-day (found cell phone bill and called the number), when I asked her if they were having an affair, all she would say over and over was "it doesn't matter". when you discover your h is having an A of course it matters! That infuriated me so much. Then afterwards she had the guts to leave a vm for my h about him having the decency to tell her it's over. To her thinking I was nothing but a stumbling block. And now that my h and I have decided to work on things I refuse to give her any more time in my life.

PEP, MY LOVE!!!!

You always come through for me.

I've been having this OW STRUGGLE!!!

I've been searching for an answer and you've got the perfect solution.

RIDE HIM !! RIDE HIM!!! LOL!!!

If your remember anything at all about my story, you know that this shouldn't be difficult for me at all.

Oh, and thanks for sharing that I have one more year to go.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:

RIDE HIM !! RIDE HIM!!! LOL!!!

<hr /></blockquote>Just don't kill him ... but it's OK to leave some marks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pep

I agree with Pep 100% and can only add that while I was rocking his world, I grabbed a handful of his hair pulled it HARD looked into his eyes and said "SAY MY NAME"

He did and after that every time OW tried to crawl through my head during sex I thought of him shouting MY name...lol did alot for our sex life too.

I've been making him SAY MY NAME for months now. He does it every time. It's a great strategy!!

Wow, you never know what other people are doing.

Dear Brown hair... did you read my long post to Noodle? Your reponse doesn't seem that you did. I love your posts normally. I love your perceptiveness. But you didn't seem to understand what I was saying. IMHO, I have not been able to DO anything about my feelings - but I said that I think time eventually does it for you.

This whole issue of why people take too long. Well think about it. In any situation you have the full spectrum of people. Some that do great and some that do badly. I might be a hundred times better than you at something else in life - in fact I sure I am. What seems easy and natural for me, might seem difficult, cumbersome or down right too hard for you.

It really isn't a case of deciding to do better. Many people say this - but I am not like that. We are not all the same - we are vastly different emotionally. I met up with tummytuck a couple of weeks ago - she's so emotionally stable compared to me. This is her nature. Her personality is layed back and she's dealing with the worst possible situation and she's doing really, really well. I've have gone out the window in her situation (21 floors up).

I saw something about infidelity on a British program last nite - some famous British poet killed herself in the sixties after discovering her H was having an A. She gassed herself leaving her children behind. Then the mistress, who was a typical mistress (married) became consumed with guilt and eventually gassed herself and a four year old daughter.

Brownhair - we are all different. We aren't carrying on this pain for the fun of it.

AN

Wow, this topic went to a very strange place. A place I like.

Noodle, since I am not in recovery, I do not know what will work for me (if I am ever so lucky) or you. I can say what has been helping me through the pain of loss.

One interesting thing about the human brain is its ability to control itself. With practice, you can think and feel anything, unless your brain is broken, but from your posts, I think your noodle works great. When you start to feel or think anything, there is about 1/4 of a second when the nerves in your brain start to fire and when you actually experience the emotion. The coolest thing, is that you can learn to recognise that 1/4 second, and squash the signals before they come to pass (make 'em say YOUR name). You can actually stop yourself from feeling anything!!!

That may sound scary, and for people that are worried you would be missing an important part of the healing process, it takes quite a while to get at all good at it. So you will have plenty of more time to feel like crap. I have been trying it with my anger towards my WW and it can work. I get so mad at her for what she is doing I actually started to see and hear things!!

Well, that was the man from mars speaking to the woman of venus, but my intentions are good. I hope it helps you in some way. Remember, you control your brain and you CAN help yourself.

Good luck!!

BTW, pep, if me and my WW ever work it out, please tell her your idea, cause it might help me get the prince (I call the OM that, as in the devil, the prince of lies) out from between my wifes legs. Excuse me while I daydream for a bit ... ... .... :-)

l8r

Jen,

No, none of S_â€™s affair makes sense to me. None at all. Sorry.

Not how it started â€“ they jumped in bed within 48 hours of meeting for the first time. He was a total stranger to her! Not how long it lasted - for ten years. Not how it survived DD1 and intensive MC back then. Not the double life. Not the mountains of lies. Nothing.

But itâ€™s probably just me. MC told me once that I do not have the mind-set, the innate selfishness, to even understand affairs, let alone have one.

Iâ€™ll give you a simple example. They started their A on his daughterâ€™s first birthday. Both knew this, of course. Where is basic consideration, not to mention love, of a father for the consequences of his actions to his own baby? Where was Wâ€™s empathy for a defenseless child? For the mother of that child? This makes no sense whatsoever to me. I could never do this to my own baby, or anyone elseâ€™s.

Hereâ€™s another. After DDay 1, W told me with real tears in her eyes she knew how much she hurt me; she begged forgiveness and swore she would never do this again - while she was still seeing him! Explain this, if you can.

No, I do not understand. I donâ€™t think I ever will. Iâ€™m apparently not from the same planet as adulterers. It's alien to me in teh extreme.

Bob,

IMO, a ten-year LTA is qualitatively and quantitatively different from a few months fling. I know everyoneâ€™s hurt is just as real. But I am dealing with something pretty dang big here. Further, OMM dropped W after I confronted him in person. Dropped her like a hot potato. She was abandoned where she stood. Sort of the same thing happened to your W, as I remember, when you exposed. So are we really their chosen number one or are we the old standbys when they couldnâ€™t have what they really wanted?

T

I know OMM hanging out in our bedroom is my problem. I didnâ€™t let him into the house, but evicting him is now my job. So why am I having so much trouble with this?

Have you ever had a canker sore in your mouth? Remember how your tongue gets a mind of its own and will not leave it alone? It hurts so good.

Well, my mind has, um, a mind of its own sometimes, too. It will not leave OMMâ€™s prowess in bed alone. No matter how hard I try, no matter what stop signs I erect, I still see the movies of them writhing together. Itâ€™s a pretty graphic porno flick, but it doesnâ€™t hurt good at all.

SF is not one of my top ENs. Itâ€™s not one of my Wâ€™s either. Yet she jumped for OMM, ripping her cloths off as she ran, to him every time he crooked his little finger at her. OK, I exaggerate for effect. But thatâ€™s what it feels like to me. I have seen the emails. I can quote the paragraph saying how good he is in bed. But she said she sometimes felt raped after being with me. (This was startling news to me, although this was after the A started, so there is probably a connection there somewhere.)

I love my beautiful W and family. I truly do. That is why I am still here after ten years of few of my ENs being met and two DDays. But, she deeply loved OMM for half our M, almost a quarter of her life. The attachment is very strong. Experts (e.g. Cerri) say this attachment never goes away. Itâ€™s a glowing ember that will last the rest of her life. It could flame up with mere accidental contact or some unhappiness in her life.

I got over it after DDay1. OMM was nowhere near our house that I could see. But getting over it again is a horse of a different color.

This was an LTA with no realistic plans of living together. It was something on the side for both of them. They both told me this. Him especially. I think kind of A is different from one where they plan to run off and live together, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I wonder if he was a marital aid, as Pitman says in Private Lies. That makes me inadequate as a husband and a lover by definition. I really have to face it.

Donâ€™t misunderstand me. W is doing all the right things. NC letter, and I believe there is NC this time, so far. She has participated in MC, Retrouvaille, IC (but quit recently) and we talk a lot. POJA, no LBs or DJs, minimum 15 hours a week together. Tactically, things are very good, all things considered. But 10 years! Strategically, I am afraid to let my guard down. I did after DD1 and look where it got me.

The last 10 years of my life is insubstantial smoke and mirrors. A magic show intentionally scripted and operated by my wife and OMM. Ten freaking years! The prime of both our lives. The best of her given to a scoundrel who didnâ€™t really care about her. He just knew what to say and when to say it to keep her on his string.

Where do I find the empty decade of my life? Is it represented in my subconscious by the Freudian haunting of our bedroom by OMM?

Of course! Safety, that is the answer. I said it myself. I do not feel safe. I still feel exposed. OMMâ€™s shade may be an illogical means of self-protection. But self-protection it is.

T

Thos, Just read both your posts to my FWH. You are the recipient of a great injustice in life. I hope you have had your share of suffering and that the rest will be kind to you. You write very well.

AN

Pep:

YOU GO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"PS... I only recommend this for BW's not BH's ... a different tactic altogether.... I doubt that rough sex with a FWW will do much but scare the FWW!!!!"

A different tack, yes.

Without going in2 details, for me that was "being good"... ...in the SACK!

I truly don't have phantoms like that anymore. Probably killed them off about 2 years ago even though we weren't anywhere near recovery then.

The "general phantom" comes up again from time 2 time even now, though he's far less insideous than he ever was.

The truth is that the BS has ALL the power 2 destroy the phantoms and that the OP never had any. Realizing that and acting on that knowledge may be easier said than done, of course.

Wow, it's been 34 month since D-day. Personal recovery? Yes. Marital recovery? Not yet.

best,
-ol' 2long

PEP AND ALL:

I'm checking in to report a GREAT RODEO PERFORMANCE THIS MORNING!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Makes a great day a work with no thoughts of the OW!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "Blasting, billowing, bursting forth with the power of 10 billion butterfly sneezes
Man with his flaming pyre has conquered the wayward breezes
Climbing to tranquility far above the cloud
Conceiving the heavens clear of misty shroud"
<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When ever "SHE " comes into the bed with us ,,,I would freeze up ....

Now ,,,,,,,,,,,"I SEE DEAD PEOPLE" (OW)

It makes me smile again and then well I have this burst of happiness and then ..... well PEP'S PLAN works at that point !!!!!!

Taking the image of her and H doing it and repalceing it with oh ...

A man standing over her stabing her or ME on top of her slitting her throat does wonders .. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And yes ,noodle ,,I got to agree this does gove OW the POWER in away ...

although she don't know what we are thinking ,,,imagine if she did ,,,SHE WOULD LOVE TO KNOW IT !!!!

Man see what this post did I was trying to pray for OW ,,and be above all this hateing stuff

now I got to go find my happy place ,,,

The other happy place not the OW should be killed place !!!

OH man all screwed up again !LOL

Dear Anyname,

I'm sorry if you felt I was somehow "attacking" you (or Noodle) in my post.

Maybe I should have explained better. I wasn't making this a recovery race or comparing "times". I just tried to share my way of dealing with my own stubborn holding on to bad memories and negative stuff in general, wallowing if you will, or worrying, that sucked the life out of me.

I found out that I needed to kick the habit of being "Mrs Betrayed by H and BF" or "Mrs Miscarriages" or "Mrs no Children"... It does become a habit - thinking over and over about the hurt, the betrayal, the "how could they" etc etc. or about the other losses in my life.

I needed to become myself again. Focus on the good things that were important to ME. I was lost completely in my M, I wasn't myself anymore, long before the A, and to heal that was to heal the pain of the A as well.

I was genuinly worried about Noodle, and about you too, seeing how you two were still hurting so deeply and how Noodle's pain and hate still seems so fresh even after two years. It makes me wonder why, and what could help.

Not all M's will recover, that's not what I'm worried about, I'm worried about you two ladies not recovering yourself, your self-esteem, your love for life. Because I know what that feels like.

Sorry again if you felt offended.

((((Anyname))))
((((Noodle)))))

...To buy a red hen..

Or possibly some light bondage toys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep, what the h*ll, I'll give it a shot, even it if doesn't exorcise my demons, it'll give them a good show.

Canthishelp, Actually..I 100% agree that the plug can be pulled on emotions..in fact I seem to have pulled mine before I really had the chance to react. On Dday..I actually spent the conversation consoling him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ..Imagine if you will..someone sitting there with a dopey grin on their face..not processing the fact that they just got shot..happily in the land of not coping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> which brings me to ..

Brownhair..

I agree, it does seem a long time to be where I am at..I have been thinking about this and what I come up with is this..According to my IC/MC I DID NOT react with ANY emotion to the news. Didn't even cry. I had so braced myself..had such an iron grip over my reactions that I just sort of didn't have one. Aside from staring bug eyed at the ceiling instead of sleeping and a mild aversion to eating for a couple of days I didn't experience ANY of the usual suspects. I functioned so well that most people didn't even realize that anything was amiss [oh..and that WAY inappropriate laughing jag I had at a mexican diner..I had just learned her name and our server shared it..that was..interesting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] My IC has a theory that I didn't begin to process, and thus respond until about March of this year..up until that point his description of me was, and I quote, "Blank".

Going off of that timeline I am about 6 or 7 months into this thing..and that seems pretty consistant with what I read here. What do you think?

OG..

Yep..the stain is what concerns me..I think it's premature to declare it permanent..but if that proves to be the case..I'll have to end it. I can not, no..I will not live with this hanging over my head forever. I seem to be of two minds on the matter..and they are fighting dirty..it will be a case of winner takes all I think.

Noodle

[ November 17, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

I haven't read the whole thread but always follow my friend 'Anyname' around MB so will jump in here with some comments.

KiwiJ - I will say 100% that your OM's wife has a picture of you in her head. You are screwing her husband and she hates you. It's as simple as that. You cannot kid yourself otherwise. You have caused her the deepest, gut-wrenching pain she will ever know other than bereavement. And some say it is worse.

Anyname stated that she felt I was in a better place than her emotionally. And I believe her so I have tried to fathom out why. Yes, it has a lot to do with personalities but I think I have another iron in my fire. I don't have a picture of OW in my head because I have chosen not to see her. I am now convinced I have done the right thing. Anyname sees OW on a regular basis and still lives in the same apartment complex where the sordid deeds took place. Ok, there is NC but the whole thing is in your face everyday. I think you should move. Yeah, in one sense the bi*ch wins; forcing you to move away but I'm sure you will get more peace being removed from the situation. You won't have those daily reminders, the chance meetings etc.

My husband's OW has never become real to me. Maybe if she does I will go to pieces. Actually to see him with another woman on his arm. Yuk. But for now I don't have a head full of images because her face is a blur. Do you think this helps at all? To the rest of you, how many of you know or have seen the OP? I don't know all of your histories and I don't have time to back-track. I'm very curious. TT

TT

Small correction for KiwiJ.

She is a Fws..emphasis on the F..all of this is in the past tense for her..I doubt that changes much for OMW..but it changes alot for her.

Noodle

Noodle, ok forgive and forget - NOT! Going back to my question, have you seen the OW and therefore have a strong image of her in your head? TT

TT

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To the rest of you, how many of you know or have seen the OP? I'm very curious. TT
<hr /></blockquote>I saw the OM often as we invited him into our home many times for dinner and we traded pet sitting duties back and forth! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I can't believe that my W still wants to be friends with him even though she knows he won't be in her future and if she tries anyways I won't be. She says we've grown apart because of her A and that she knows herself better as a result.
I don't know if she's trying to kid herself or me.
Is this normal behaviour????

Brian

bbrriiaann,

I just remembered something funny from waaaay back when I was in college..

One of my roommates was having/tolerating a discussion with another roommate who was in love with the idea of "finding himself".

After about an hour of this roommate A said "What if you DO find yourself but you're a [censored]? What have you gained? Why not just make goals now and learn as you go?"

Well..it wasn't well received..but I thought it was astute then..and now..and just funny as heck!

Noodle

I have a strong image of ow in my head.

I have talked to her and been a guest in her home.

I have read conversations between her and wh, that told me alot about her and the dynamics between them. A flattering tongue. It was scary how utterly devoid of conscience she is. She reminds me of the serpent in the garden.

Talking to her, she was so smooth that she almost had me convinced that their relationship was no big deal.

Evil disguised as light.

God help him.

noodle,

I'm glad you're involved with an IC to help with your grief issues. Some people experience something called "complicated grief". It manifests itself is different ways but "complicated or unresolved grief may appear as a complete absence of grief and mourning, an ongoing inability to experience normal grief reactions, delayed grief, conflicted grief, or chronic grief." Some people get "stuck" in the grieving process. Timing most certainly does vary from one person to the next, but on average...intense grieving lasts about two months, and continues on for about 18 months to two years. (those averages and not meant to imply set times for individuals...just guidelines) You could be right that your delayed start set you back a bit and has complicated your recovery, but some of the persistent dreaming and imaging is also associated with being "stuck" in grief. Please take care of yourself.

Dr. Robert Rich uses this analogy:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I tell my clients that grief is like a broken bone. It hurts; in fact there is something wrong with you if it doesn't hurt. It takes time to heal, and the injury often leaves scar tissue. There are distinct stages, but you can get stuck in a stage if something goes wrong, and while you are healing you are vulnerable to a relapse, a new injury.
In this analogy, anger is like an infection in the wound. It prevents healing.
It is entirely natural and proper to feel angry at a certain stage of grieving for a loss. It is definitely one of the stages. But sometimes the sufferer hangs on to the anger. The result is invariably unresolved grief. The loss stays a festering wound for years.
Hate and anger can eat up a person, preventing the normal progress of grief. <hr /></blockquote>

star*fish..

What dreaming and imagining? You mean the images during sex?

Noodle

Noodle, thanks for the "F". I appreciate it. I don't know how much you've read of my situation but we (H and I) are doing incredibly well.

After I'd posted I realised I sounded like an "OW" which of course I am to OM's W. Our MC said if people knew what A's did to hurt all concerned, no one would have one. Sadly, of course, some people never learn and go on and on making the same mistakes. I have ZERO tolerance for affairs now (and always did before mine) and feel sick to my stomach whenever I hear of another one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

TT, it all makes me sick right now - all of it. The pain and devestation caused to everyone by an A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

Brian,

it sounds pretty foggy to me. It's normal for a person in withdrawl, in deep fog. They "just want to friends with OP" without realising how disrespectful and hurting this is for you. And yes, she must have discovered some things about herself and learned more about herself. But they're not good things and she doesn't realise that yet. And yes, of course there is some distance between you two because of her A! That's not rocket science... that's fog.

It's very important that all contact with OM stops. You can't force her - you can only ask (not demand, that won't help) her to do this for the sake of your M.

Once she starts realising what she has really done, how she has lied, cheated and betrayed, once the phantasy love feelings for OM start to disappear, she will feel very low, and finally, very guilty, ashamed.

Not every person is strong enough to really face what they have done wrong. Most go through stages of denial (blaming you for what was wrong in the M, for example, instead of taking her responsibility too). They will say hurtful things that they'll later on deny ever having said!

Are you in plan A? Did you read up on LB, EN etc?

Hi Noodle,

glad you're going to the market <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> - new slang for surprise for our unsuspecting H's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - you might find it very empowering.

I think you have a strong point there (that you've only really started recovering yourself at a later point). The unplanned pregnancy didn't help either, I guess.

I tend to dive head first into my emotions. I'm scared that if I don't something will start festering inside. Unfortunately strong negative emotions tend to create a swamp-like environment, once you step in, it's hard to get out, the stuff keeps pulling you down. The only way I could get out was by making the swamp lose it hold on me, by accepting my anger and pain and hurt and then letting go of it. In that order, I couldn't let go until I really accepted it.

I'm glad you're recovering now, even though my month 6 to 7 of recovery were pretty rough. For FWH everything was in the distant past at that point (luckily no EA), but not for me.

My D-day 2 is tomorrow, yech.
But also.. yay ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Because that will mean a whole year of reclaiming every day. A whole year, every day of the year, every season, with just DH and myself.

I hope you can find a way to reclaim your life my dear. To find out whether this M can be what you want and need for this lifetime.

(((((Noodle)))))

Dear KiwiJ,

I wrote in another post on this thread I had to quit being "Mrs Betrayed by H and BF".

You are NOT "Mrs Who Had an A". Not to me, anyway. You might be "Mrs OW" to the OM's W. Like my mother might be "Mrs Old Lady With Grey Hair Who Drives A Red Car" to some people - because that's the only part of her life they know about.

The very fact that you are so upset with the whole concept makes you "Mrs Wonderful and Caring Person".

((((KiwiJ)))))
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm in a hugging mood this morning.

TT, We better catch up again soon. Any chance of next Thursday? We've had some good news since I last saw you. Daughter going back to London - good hospital placement there and our son got a first class honours for his med research. Absolutely amazed at son's results - best news we've had in years.

Now, to the thread. I just think that we all come to the infidelity dinner party with different emotional strengths and weaknesses. I presume some people are tipped over the edge by unfaithfulness and others do the recovery thing in double quick time. My first episode of seriously not coping was when I was hospitalized at age 3! I remember my performance! Going to school was another huge deal for me. Now that I look back I can see a strong pattern of not coping with change. I really panicked the day after I got married. I was 19 going on 12. I probably have a personality disorder of some kind.

I asked my H tonight why he thought I had taken it so badly. He said he thought it was because of the quality of our relationship prior. Well I spose that's part of it. Partly it was the quality of him - what I had believed about him.

If we move it will be back to OZ. Still trying to decide.

How are things with you? Any news from WH?

Noodle: Are you saying you didn't react at all for sixteen months and them bam?

Brownhair: No offense taken. Nice when the 2 yr ann., is over huh?

AN

Hi Anyname,

actually it's the first, not the second "anniversary".. it's just D-Day 2. First I found out about H going to P's (D-Day 1) and a month later I found about him also having PA with my BF (D-Day 2). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Moving would probably be a good thing to let the bad memories disappear. I wouldn't underestimate the impact of you running into this girl from time to time, having her so close to you. I know I didn't get over ANYTHING until I asked for NC and didn't agree anymore on "all being good friends again, just like before".

Having a lot of time on your hands is another bad thing too. After I lost my son 14 years ago, I took a very busy temp job and that helped, sitting at home staring at the baby stuff there wasn't doing me any good. After my two miscarriages and my H's A I didn't have the energy to go out to work full time, but having so much spare time was not good for me either.

It's really our self-esteem and self-respect that we need to work on, I think. I know mine was gone 75% before the A and 100% after I found out about the A. I'm building it up again.. M or no M, H or no H, I have to do this for myself.

Anyname, no can do next Thursday cos it's my friend's Thanksgiving thingy and I never turn down a free meal. The week after will be great for a catch up. I get the impression you are turning a corner and I'm delighted for you. Fantastic news about your children. You must be so proud of them. Will start a new thread but not tonight. Too tired. Noticed earlier on about 7 pm there were only two logged in users. Must have been you and me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AN,

Did I basically not respond for all that time..yup, pretty much.

Now I'll give a little backround on that..partially it is just my generally balanced personality..I really do not swing too far one way or the other ever emotionally..I've never been over the top upset or really even lost my temper..not ever. My Mom provides an example..one day when I was 3 we had a mouse in the house..she panicked ran into my room and locked the door ..I hadn't moved from where I was sitting while she hopped from foot to foot in her anxiety and she reports that I calmly told her "Mommy, I don't think the mouse can unlock the door."

Then..my natural tendancy got a little boost due to a violent drug/alcohol addicted father. I literally NEEDED to have my wits about me on several occasions over the course of about a year and a half before we left him. That has been my MO ever since..get out of the burning building first, then cry about it. Problem was..I couldn't get out with my Hs affair..because the behavior was ongoing from about a year prior to his ONS and continued until I realized one day that my reserves were simply..critically low and that I needed it to END one way or the other before I shut down. That night I basically told him just that. He made his choice, we began to recover, there have been no false recoveries a few weeks later I began to grieve..shortly after that I began posting here. So this has pretty much been a documented grieving period for me..and although my posts are rife with pain..my day to day life is not. I have never experienced the extremes of others..no suicidal urges, no inability to function w/out ad meds..just sort of quietly grieving what has been lost and trying to figure out what to do with my future. I sort of wish sometimes that I was capable of it though. Pep gave her H a fat lip and the image in my head of that occasion is sadly funny. I will never have an outburst like that, but I do admire them in others.

In some ways..I feel I missed the boat for expressing the really dramatic parts..because it was so long ago, and it just seems......mean? to rub his contrite nose in it just for release. I can release it elsewhere and I do..don't misunderstand me..I tell him that I hurt and what about..even allowed him to console me once, it was nice, but the unedited for content version seems at cross purposes with building a relationship..however it provides such a large medium for expelling the pain I don't think I want to give it up.

So..that's about it in a nutshell, make sense?

Noodle

Brownhair,

Hausfrau is not a good plan for me either..because my #1 flaw is PROCRASTINATION!!! if I could find another route for emphasizing that I would <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I sort of NEED an external structure because left to myself..if there is nothing pressing to do..I will do nothing. Just wander mentally and physically through my day.

I have been told that I was a damn difficult discipline challenge because I was rarely intentionally naughty, and because I could sit happily watching the pictures on the back of my eyelids for days and so most punative action [grounding etc] was in vain. So she used my strengths to combat my weaknesses. She set up a structure for me to push off of and coasted on my natural moral compass..I didn't need to be told that something was not OK..I just needed a kick in the @ss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have had to carry that over into adulthood..and housewifedom has been a challenge indeed.

I will never again embrace it..it has been a necessity during the time H has been in the military because the childcare here is unacceptable to me, and his schedual can not be relied on, and thus can not be planned around. I know myself well enough to admit..that I have to rise earlier, walk farther, and climb higher to accomplish half as much as a housewife..it is not a natural strength, and in fact sets me up to be vulnerable to the worst weakness I have.

Here's to future employment [raises glass]

Noodle

::::but the unedited for content version seems at cross purposes with building a relationship..

Is that really true? For me, the reverse has been the case, to rebuild the relationship.

:::however it provides such a large medium for expelling the pain I don't think I want to give it up.

So you go thru the pain solo with the help of MBs and therapy? With just the occassional sharing with your H? How has the relationship progressed with this arrangement? Where do you feel you are at now?

I am still wondering what were you thinking week in week out, month in month out to get you to the point of March this year and grieving?
I have to confess that my intellectual skills don't extend to understanding what I've read in your posts and what you've said has been your behavior. I am not saying it's not possible, as I can't see any reason you would have to lie about it. It's just really weird to me - very foreign to my approach.

I am a great believer that hormones reek havoc. Another poster commented about your pregnancy? - Did you think your hormones boiled over causing you to start to react when you'd remained fairly emotionaless until then? I am so badly effected by hormoens, that I am two different people in the monthly cycle. My H used to say this, years ago - but since dealing with the aftermath, it's been a dramatic.

TT, Daughter arrives here next Friday for a couple of weeks. Can you pencil me in for after the 9th and before Christmas? I'm going home on the 23rd and won't be back until after Chinese New Year. H and I will have a long spell apart between 9th Jan and 4th Feb. I can't believe I agreed to that - but son is visiting in that time and someone has to feed the [censored] cat in OZ! We can have a chat on the phone if time works against us.

Brownhair: I can't really work here in Asia. Jobs for western people without expertise, are very thin on the ground. I'm really ok about not working but it was very lonely here at first, when I was trying to cope with the initial emotional hit from the A. It's a very strange enviroment here - there's a lot of socialising with a steady, almost weekly flow of overseas visitors - but on a personal level, I don't have any girl friends (got TT now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) here. That's why we stay living next door to my H's work (in same building as OW) - so he can pop home sometimes for arvo tea and lunch. If I move, I isolate myself further.

You really have done very well btw. Congrats on your great progress!

Brownhair

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Brian, it sounds pretty foggy to me. It's normal for a person in withdrawl, in deep fog. They "just want to friends with OP" without realising how disrespectful and hurting this is for you. And yes, she must have discovered some things about herself and learned more about herself. But they're not good things and she doesn't realise that yet. And yes, of course there is some distance between you two because of her A! That's not rocket science... that's fog.

Once she starts realising what she has really done, how she has lied, cheated and betrayed, once the phantasy love feelings for OM start to disappear, she will feel very low, and finally, very guilty, ashamed.

Not every person is strong enough to really face what they have done wrong. Most go through stages of denial (blaming you for what was wrong in the M, for example, instead of taking her responsibility too).

Are you in plan A? Did you read up on LB, EN etc?
<hr /></blockquote>I hope what I'm seeing in her right now is the confusion and not her true feelings. We talked about her renewed A yesterday and since she can't stop being with him she has to move out. My own sense of worth is being impacted too greatly by having her here. I never asked much from her but I insist on exclusivity. She won't guarantee that.
So I move on to plan B . I hope it's more successful than plan A was. But that's unfair...she never gave up the OM so recovery never had a chance.

Brian

AN

Yes, it's really true. Would it speed MY recovery to be able to vomit on the person who poisoned me? Almost certainly..but I must consider the person with whom I'm dealing. If your H has the emotional fortitude to withstand that and not withdraw you are fortunate indeed..I on the other hand have had to leave a trail of M&Ms for my H to be able to express his true feelings on any matter, rather than just tell me what he thinks I want to hear, and I value this more than I want to purge. I admit it. He is skittish and I will not chase him off so that I can have a temper tentrum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Really? That's what it is. Me stomping my feet and whining like a little girl. YOU CHEATED! NO FAIR!! I"M TELLING!!

I need a place to do that though. I need that release so that I can deal with the REAL issues at hand in as unbiased a manner as possible.

Did my pregancy contribute? Definitely. I was so tired and nauseated that my reserves were being drained at break neck speed. This is almost surely WHY I arrived at the jumping off place when I did. I needed it to end one way or the other pronto . I was too tired and ill to continue on as I had been. It was time to fix it or kill it.

As for hormones...well..yeah. I get pretty weepy, in a funny, kind of silly way. I cry at touching moments on the simpsons..and I do become more emotionally vulnerable and available and ahem..how to say...sexually charged..during pregnancy. If it were up to H, I would always be pregnant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> In theory, I know that the answer to every question isn't sex..but during pregnancy [especially the last trimester] it really seems to be. Phone bill came, let's have sex. DD has the flu, how about some sex? I just stopped by to bring you lunch..and sex. It's a little ridiculous, but he wasn't complaining.

I think the relationship progresses well with the method I employ..because it isn't that he is being spared knowledge of my needs and sadness and feelings..he is being spared the bad behavior that I would LIKE to use to express my needs and sadness and feelings. Sometimes, when I allow him to..when I feel brave enough to expose those nerves, I can let him console me. I wish I were always strong enough to do that, but it's such a difficult thing to do..to show those wounds to the person who inflicted them and let them change the bandage so to speak..unnerving.

I have recovered from pain in the past..truly recovered. I can not only expose the nerves and scars..I can poke them, rub them, jump on them or kick them and I find that I have reached true indifference. The question for me is..can I reach this point while remaining married and vulnerable to the person who caused me to need to recover? I would love to be confident that I could..to lay down a blanket assurance..and yet a part of me knows that removing the offending person from my life allowed me to heal because they simply could not hurt me again, ever. How to heal when another blast may well be just around the corner? I think once something like this happens, you must admit that you really have no way of sussing out just what another person is willing to do to you. My H has asked in suprise "You don't think I'd do that again , do you?" I had to respond honestly "I didn't think you would do it the first time, now I don't know how to measure where your boundaries lie, and it scares me"

Another thing about hormones? Yes, I AM very affected by them, but I also posses a great awareness of this. I can actually say "I'm due to start crying in about 3 days" or "I'll probably be edgey tomorrow, don't be suprised if I seem stressed and irritated" I can feel the surge, and I usually just let H know and retreat to some much needed privacy. I'll go for a walk, or to bed early..things like that. I sort of avoid people when I know that I'm not feeling very friendly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for the progress we have made as a coouple..honestly there is nothing more that I could ask. He is already volunteering to do everything that I would ask him to do unasked.

Any further demands would be very like telling him if you love me make the sun not come up [shout out to cymanca]

I think Thos may be correct. It may be protective measures. Whether those measures are necessary or unfounded is the question at ahnd..and I don't think anyone has the answer, not today, not yet.

Noodle