...To buy a red hen..

Or possibly some light bondage toys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep, what the h*ll, I'll give it a shot, even it if doesn't exorcise my demons, it'll give them a good show.

Canthishelp, Actually..I 100% agree that the plug can be pulled on emotions..in fact I seem to have pulled mine before I really had the chance to react. On Dday..I actually spent the conversation consoling him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ..Imagine if you will..someone sitting there with a dopey grin on their face..not processing the fact that they just got shot..happily in the land of not coping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> which brings me to ..

Brownhair..

I agree, it does seem a long time to be where I am at..I have been thinking about this and what I come up with is this..According to my IC/MC I DID NOT react with ANY emotion to the news. Didn't even cry. I had so braced myself..had such an iron grip over my reactions that I just sort of didn't have one. Aside from staring bug eyed at the ceiling instead of sleeping and a mild aversion to eating for a couple of days I didn't experience ANY of the usual suspects. I functioned so well that most people didn't even realize that anything was amiss [oh..and that WAY inappropriate laughing jag I had at a mexican diner..I had just learned her name and our server shared it..that was..interesting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] My IC has a theory that I didn't begin to process, and thus respond until about March of this year..up until that point his description of me was, and I quote, "Blank".

Going off of that timeline I am about 6 or 7 months into this thing..and that seems pretty consistant with what I read here. What do you think?

OG..

Yep..the stain is what concerns me..I think it's premature to declare it permanent..but if that proves to be the case..I'll have to end it. I can not, no..I will not live with this hanging over my head forever. I seem to be of two minds on the matter..and they are fighting dirty..it will be a case of winner takes all I think.

Noodle

<small>[ November 17, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

I haven't read the whole thread but always follow my friend 'Anyname' around MB so will jump in here with some comments.

KiwiJ - I will say 100% that your OM's wife has a picture of you in her head. You are screwing her husband and she hates you. It's as simple as that. You cannot kid yourself otherwise. You have caused her the deepest, gut-wrenching pain she will ever know other than bereavement. And some say it is worse.

Anyname stated that she felt I was in a better place than her emotionally. And I believe her so I have tried to fathom out why. Yes, it has a lot to do with personalities but I think I have another iron in my fire. I don't have a picture of OW in my head because I have chosen not to see her. I am now convinced I have done the right thing. Anyname sees OW on a regular basis and still lives in the same apartment complex where the sordid deeds took place. Ok, there is NC but the whole thing is in your face everyday. I think you should move. Yeah, in one sense the bi*ch wins; forcing you to move away but I'm sure you will get more peace being removed from the situation. You won't have those daily reminders, the chance meetings etc.

My husband's OW has never become real to me. Maybe if she does I will go to pieces. Actually to see him with another woman on his arm. Yuk. But for now I don't have a head full of images because her face is a blur. Do you think this helps at all? To the rest of you, how many of you know or have seen the OP? I don't know all of your histories and I don't have time to back-track. I'm very curious. TT

TT

Small correction for KiwiJ.


She is a Fws..emphasis on the F..all of this is in the past tense for her..I doubt that changes much for OMW..but it changes alot for her.

Noodle

Noodle, ok forgive and forget - NOT! Going back to my question, have you seen the OW and therefore have a strong image of her in your head? TT

TT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To the rest of you, how many of you know or have seen the OP? I'm very curious. TT
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw the OM often as we invited him into our home many times for dinner and we traded pet sitting duties back and forth! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I can't believe that my W still wants to be friends with him even though she knows he won't be in her future and if she tries anyways I won't be. She says we've grown apart because of her A and that she knows herself better as a result.
I don't know if she's trying to kid herself or me.
Is this normal behaviour????

Brian

bbrriiaann,

I just remembered something funny from waaaay back when I was in college..

One of my roommates was having/tolerating a discussion with another roommate who was in love with the idea of "finding himself".

After about an hour of this roommate A said "What if you DO find yourself but you're a [censored]? What have you gained? Why not just make goals now and learn as you go?"

Well..it wasn't well received..but I thought it was astute then..and now..and just funny as heck!

Noodle

I have a strong image of ow in my head.

I have talked to her and been a guest in her home.

I have read conversations between her and wh, that told me alot about her and the dynamics between them. A flattering tongue. It was scary how utterly devoid of conscience she is. She reminds me of the serpent in the garden.

Talking to her, she was so smooth that she almost had me convinced that their relationship was no big deal.

Evil disguised as light.

God help him.

noodle,

I'm glad you're involved with an IC to help with your grief issues. Some people experience something called "complicated grief". It manifests itself is different ways but "complicated or unresolved grief may appear as a complete absence of grief and mourning, an ongoing inability to experience normal grief reactions, delayed grief, conflicted grief, or chronic grief." Some people get "stuck" in the grieving process. Timing most certainly does vary from one person to the next, but on average...intense grieving lasts about two months, and continues on for about 18 months to two years. (those averages and not meant to imply set times for individuals...just guidelines) You could be right that your delayed start set you back a bit and has complicated your recovery, but some of the persistent dreaming and imaging is also associated with being "stuck" in grief. Please take care of yourself.

Dr. Robert Rich uses this analogy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tell my clients that grief is like a broken bone. It hurts; in fact there is something wrong with you if it doesn't hurt. It takes time to heal, and the injury often leaves scar tissue. There are distinct stages, but you can get stuck in a stage if something goes wrong, and while you are healing you are vulnerable to a relapse, a new injury.
In this analogy, anger is like an infection in the wound. It prevents healing.
It is entirely natural and proper to feel angry at a certain stage of grieving for a loss. It is definitely one of the stages. But sometimes the sufferer hangs on to the anger. The result is invariably unresolved grief. The loss stays a festering wound for years.
Hate and anger can eat up a person, preventing the normal progress of grief. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

star*fish..

What dreaming and imagining? You mean the images during sex?

Noodle

Noodle, thanks for the "F". I appreciate it. I don't know how much you've read of my situation but we (H and I) are doing incredibly well.

After I'd posted I realised I sounded like an "OW" which of course I am to OM's W. Our MC said if people knew what A's did to hurt all concerned, no one would have one. Sadly, of course, some people never learn and go on and on making the same mistakes. I have ZERO tolerance for affairs now (and always did before mine) and feel sick to my stomach whenever I hear of another one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

TT, it all makes me sick right now - all of it. The pain and devestation caused to everyone by an A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

Brian,

it sounds pretty foggy to me. It's normal for a person in withdrawl, in deep fog. They "just want to friends with OP" without realising how disrespectful and hurting this is for you. And yes, she must have discovered some things about herself and learned more about herself. But they're not good things and she doesn't realise that yet. And yes, of course there is some distance between you two because of her A! That's not rocket science... that's fog.

It's very important that all contact with OM stops. You can't force her - you can only ask (not demand, that won't help) her to do this for the sake of your M.

Once she starts realising what she has really done, how she has lied, cheated and betrayed, once the phantasy love feelings for OM start to disappear, she will feel very low, and finally, very guilty, ashamed.

Not every person is strong enough to really face what they have done wrong. Most go through stages of denial (blaming you for what was wrong in the M, for example, instead of taking her responsibility too). They will say hurtful things that they'll later on deny ever having said!

Are you in plan A? Did you read up on LB, EN etc?

Hi Noodle,

glad you're going to the market <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> - new slang for surprise for our unsuspecting H's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - you might find it very empowering.

I think you have a strong point there (that you've only really started recovering yourself at a later point). The unplanned pregnancy didn't help either, I guess.

I tend to dive head first into my emotions. I'm scared that if I don't something will start festering inside. Unfortunately strong negative emotions tend to create a swamp-like environment, once you step in, it's hard to get out, the stuff keeps pulling you down. The only way I could get out was by making the swamp lose it hold on me, by accepting my anger and pain and hurt and then letting go of it. In that order, I couldn't let go until I really accepted it.

I'm glad you're recovering now, even though my month 6 to 7 of recovery were pretty rough. For FWH everything was in the distant past at that point (luckily no EA), but not for me.

My D-day 2 is tomorrow, yech.
But also.. yay ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Because that will mean a whole year of reclaiming every day. A whole year, every day of the year, every season, with just DH and myself.

I hope you can find a way to reclaim your life my dear. To find out whether this M can be what you want and need for this lifetime.

(((((Noodle)))))

Dear KiwiJ,

I wrote in another post on this thread I had to quit being "Mrs Betrayed by H and BF".

You are NOT "Mrs Who Had an A". Not to me, anyway. You might be "Mrs OW" to the OM's W. Like my mother might be "Mrs Old Lady With Grey Hair Who Drives A Red Car" to some people - because that's the only part of her life they know about.

The very fact that you are so upset with the whole concept makes you "Mrs Wonderful and Caring Person".

((((KiwiJ)))))
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm in a hugging mood this morning.

TT, We better catch up again soon. Any chance of next Thursday? We've had some good news since I last saw you. Daughter going back to London - good hospital placement there and our son got a first class honours for his med research. Absolutely amazed at son's results - best news we've had in years.

Now, to the thread. I just think that we all come to the infidelity dinner party with different emotional strengths and weaknesses. I presume some people are tipped over the edge by unfaithfulness and others do the recovery thing in double quick time. My first episode of seriously not coping was when I was hospitalized at age 3! I remember my performance! Going to school was another huge deal for me. Now that I look back I can see a strong pattern of not coping with change. I really panicked the day after I got married. I was 19 going on 12. I probably have a personality disorder of some kind.

I asked my H tonight why he thought I had taken it so badly. He said he thought it was because of the quality of our relationship prior. Well I spose that's part of it. Partly it was the quality of him - what I had believed about him.

If we move it will be back to OZ. Still trying to decide.

How are things with you? Any news from WH?

Noodle: Are you saying you didn't react at all for sixteen months and them bam?

Brownhair: No offense taken. Nice when the 2 yr ann., is over huh?

AN

Hi Anyname,

actually it's the first, not the second "anniversary".. it's just D-Day 2. First I found out about H going to P's (D-Day 1) and a month later I found about him also having PA with my BF (D-Day 2). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Moving would probably be a good thing to let the bad memories disappear. I wouldn't underestimate the impact of you running into this girl from time to time, having her so close to you. I know I didn't get over ANYTHING until I asked for NC and didn't agree anymore on "all being good friends again, just like before".

Having a lot of time on your hands is another bad thing too. After I lost my son 14 years ago, I took a very busy temp job and that helped, sitting at home staring at the baby stuff there wasn't doing me any good. After my two miscarriages and my H's A I didn't have the energy to go out to work full time, but having so much spare time was not good for me either.

It's really our self-esteem and self-respect that we need to work on, I think. I know mine was gone 75% before the A and 100% after I found out about the A. I'm building it up again.. M or no M, H or no H, I have to do this for myself.

Anyname, no can do next Thursday cos it's my friend's Thanksgiving thingy and I never turn down a free meal. The week after will be great for a catch up. I get the impression you are turning a corner and I'm delighted for you. Fantastic news about your children. You must be so proud of them. Will start a new thread but not tonight. Too tired. Noticed earlier on about 7 pm there were only two logged in users. Must have been you and me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AN,

Did I basically not respond for all that time..yup, pretty much.

Now I'll give a little backround on that..partially it is just my generally balanced personality..I really do not swing too far one way or the other ever emotionally..I've never been over the top upset or really even lost my temper..not ever. My Mom provides an example..one day when I was 3 we had a mouse in the house..she panicked ran into my room and locked the door ..I hadn't moved from where I was sitting while she hopped from foot to foot in her anxiety and she reports that I calmly told her "Mommy, I don't think the mouse can unlock the door."

Then..my natural tendancy got a little boost due to a violent drug/alcohol addicted father. I literally NEEDED to have my wits about me on several occasions over the course of about a year and a half before we left him. That has been my MO ever since..get out of the burning building first, then cry about it. Problem was..I couldn't get out with my Hs affair..because the behavior was ongoing from about a year prior to his ONS and continued until I realized one day that my reserves were simply..critically low and that I needed it to END one way or the other before I shut down. That night I basically told him just that. He made his choice, we began to recover, there have been no false recoveries a few weeks later I began to grieve..shortly after that I began posting here. So this has pretty much been a documented grieving period for me..and although my posts are rife with pain..my day to day life is not. I have never experienced the extremes of others..no suicidal urges, no inability to function w/out ad meds..just sort of quietly grieving what has been lost and trying to figure out what to do with my future. I sort of wish sometimes that I was capable of it though. Pep gave her H a fat lip and the image in my head of that occasion is sadly funny. I will never have an outburst like that, but I do admire them in others.

In some ways..I feel I missed the boat for expressing the really dramatic parts..because it was so long ago, and it just seems......mean? to rub his contrite nose in it just for release. I can release it elsewhere and I do..don't misunderstand me..I tell him that I hurt and what about..even allowed him to console me once, it was nice, but the unedited for content version seems at cross purposes with building a relationship..however it provides such a large medium for expelling the pain I don't think I want to give it up.

So..that's about it in a nutshell, make sense?

Noodle

Brownhair,

Hausfrau is not a good plan for me either..because my #1 flaw is PROCRASTINATION!!! if I could find another route for emphasizing that I would <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I sort of NEED an external structure because left to myself..if there is nothing pressing to do..I will do nothing. Just wander mentally and physically through my day.

I have been told that I was a damn difficult discipline challenge because I was rarely intentionally naughty, and because I could sit happily watching the pictures on the back of my eyelids for days and so most punative action [grounding etc] was in vain. So she used my strengths to combat my weaknesses. She set up a structure for me to push off of and coasted on my natural moral compass..I didn't need to be told that something was not OK..I just needed a kick in the @ss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have had to carry that over into adulthood..and housewifedom has been a challenge indeed.

I will never again embrace it..it has been a necessity during the time H has been in the military because the childcare here is unacceptable to me, and his schedual can not be relied on, and thus can not be planned around. I know myself well enough to admit..that I have to rise earlier, walk farther, and climb higher to accomplish half as much as a housewife..it is not a natural strength, and in fact sets me up to be vulnerable to the worst weakness I have.

Here's to future employment [raises glass]

Noodle

::::but the unedited for content version seems at cross purposes with building a relationship..

Is that really true? For me, the reverse has been the case, to rebuild the relationship.

:::however it provides such a large medium for expelling the pain I don't think I want to give it up.

So you go thru the pain solo with the help of MBs and therapy? With just the occassional sharing with your H? How has the relationship progressed with this arrangement? Where do you feel you are at now?


I am still wondering what were you thinking week in week out, month in month out to get you to the point of March this year and grieving?
I have to confess that my intellectual skills don't extend to understanding what I've read in your posts and what you've said has been your behavior. I am not saying it's not possible, as I can't see any reason you would have to lie about it. It's just really weird to me - very foreign to my approach.

I am a great believer that hormones reek havoc. Another poster commented about your pregnancy? - Did you think your hormones boiled over causing you to start to react when you'd remained fairly emotionaless until then? I am so badly effected by hormoens, that I am two different people in the monthly cycle. My H used to say this, years ago - but since dealing with the aftermath, it's been a dramatic.

TT, Daughter arrives here next Friday for a couple of weeks. Can you pencil me in for after the 9th and before Christmas? I'm going home on the 23rd and won't be back until after Chinese New Year. H and I will have a long spell apart between 9th Jan and 4th Feb. I can't believe I agreed to that - but son is visiting in that time and someone has to feed the [censored] cat in OZ! We can have a chat on the phone if time works against us.

Brownhair: I can't really work here in Asia. Jobs for western people without expertise, are very thin on the ground. I'm really ok about not working but it was very lonely here at first, when I was trying to cope with the initial emotional hit from the A. It's a very strange enviroment here - there's a lot of socialising with a steady, almost weekly flow of overseas visitors - but on a personal level, I don't have any girl friends (got TT now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) here. That's why we stay living next door to my H's work (in same building as OW) - so he can pop home sometimes for arvo tea and lunch. If I move, I isolate myself further.

You really have done very well btw. Congrats on your great progress!

Brownhair

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Brian, it sounds pretty foggy to me. It's normal for a person in withdrawl, in deep fog. They "just want to friends with OP" without realising how disrespectful and hurting this is for you. And yes, she must have discovered some things about herself and learned more about herself. But they're not good things and she doesn't realise that yet. And yes, of course there is some distance between you two because of her A! That's not rocket science... that's fog.

Once she starts realising what she has really done, how she has lied, cheated and betrayed, once the phantasy love feelings for OM start to disappear, she will feel very low, and finally, very guilty, ashamed.

Not every person is strong enough to really face what they have done wrong. Most go through stages of denial (blaming you for what was wrong in the M, for example, instead of taking her responsibility too).

Are you in plan A? Did you read up on LB, EN etc?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope what I'm seeing in her right now is the confusion and not her true feelings. We talked about her renewed A yesterday and since she can't stop being with him she has to move out. My own sense of worth is being impacted too greatly by having her here. I never asked much from her but I insist on exclusivity. She won't guarantee that.
So I move on to plan B . I hope it's more successful than plan A was. But that's unfair...she never gave up the OM so recovery never had a chance.

Brian