How to get the fog to lift? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Is there some magic recipe to get the fog to lift for a WS?

I'm almost done with "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Glass, and I've realized that everything after about page 50 is predicated on communicating with each other. That is something that went downhill late last year, and was completely cut off after DDay.

After giving it a lot of thought over the past few days, I realize that I miss my wife. I REALLY REALLY miss her. I want to rewind to last October/November when we had fun conversations, watched TV together on the couch, hungout at the kids' games, and had increased PA.

This new alien wifey, while still as beautiful as the old wife, isn't as fun to be around and certainly doesn't seem to want to be around me.

I'm well along the path of A and would love to talk with her about it - she's my best friend. I have to admit that taking care of myself was something that had been lacking for a while. It's helped my attitude with the kids, refocused my work, and shown me I am responsible for my own happiness and actions.

My guess is I'll hear patience as the answer, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

[ March 01, 2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Extropy ]

Fog only lifts after NC. Sometimes it lifts temporarily but always comes back until NC established.

That's not good. She sees little problem with contact as they are "just friends". I now know where a proper line in establishing friends, but that doesn't fit in her view.

So to establish NC I need to have patience with Plan A and pray?

"How to get the fog to lift?"

If you can figure this out, you'll make the rest of us look like idiots, make a lot of money, and also put an end to this forum.

Until then, the best you can do is Plan A and exposure, and Plan B when the opportunity arises.

Hmmm...

Maybe we could start some sort of cult deprogramming program for WS's? LOL

Or since adultery is like an addiction, maybe a Betty Ford type program?

Have you tried exposure? That usually spoils the magic of the affair for most adulterers.

This is what I tried:
(Might have worked better if I had been tougher with enforcing and/or my WH wasn't so delusionally convinced he could still manage to be sneaky enough to continue cake-eating)

I told my WH that since I am not the sort of person to have a relationship with somebody behind anyone's back, that I would not have any more contact with him as long as he had anything to do with the OW. I gave this as a major reason for my Plan B no contact. Even though WH and I were still married and obviously WH and OW didn't mind carrying on with each other behind MY back, I said it was my standard that I wanted to live up to for myself. I rejected all fog-induced explanations that he should be allowed to be friends with both me and the OW... I told him I choose my own friends.
OW did not want my WH to have any contact with me either (and even wanted to restrict/control any contact he had with his daughters!) So her jealousy and controlling was of some help in ending his cake-eating.

I guess patience is really all we can offer (besides exposure and eventually stopping contact with the WS).

Be consistent with your plan to increase your odds of success.

Heehee.. Maybe some voodoo priestess can come up with something for me.

Regarding exposure, I haven't explicitly told many people. She now runs in a new social group, and this guy fits in with them. I could expose to other friends/family/superiors at her part time job, but what relevance is that? Especially if they are "JF" and I'm "overreacting".

And these new friends are the ones who I believe helped contribute and encourage this behavior, which at the time was very attractive due to my not meeting her ENs well.

I'm not fully able to make sense of what is going on, and she doesn't want to talk about it. I'm sure she has loads that she wants to tell me, but doesn't want to open the flood gates.

I was thinking that one of those industrial fans would do the job.....but it's sooooo thick sometimes, that even that won't work.

I did consider using an air hose in my H's ear at one point.....don't think that will work either. Plus....I'd like for him to hear me when I yell at him.

I propose that someone start up a clinic.

The Alien Abduction, Moose Brain Worm Clinic.

WAT can be the President.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried an intervention type of exposure?
You know - have all the anti-adultery friends, relatives, coworkers present to confront the adulterers?
That's what used when it's a substance abuse addiction, right?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She sees little problem with contact as they are "just friends". <hr /></blockquote>Right, they all say that. Eventually she may start to realize that it is addiction and NC is the cure.

"just friends" my eye!

We all have friends we lose contact with over the years, don't see anymore because we're too busy, etc.

If they were really just friends than giving up contact with them wouldn't be such a big deal.

Also, IMO if you want to be able to have friendships you have a duty to ensure they never go to far, never come between you and your spouse. If you fail to take such precautions then you have chosen to risk losing not just your marriage but also the friendship.

Don't ever let a wayward spouse make you feel guilty for making them give up their 'friend' LOL
The adulterers destroyed the chance for an innocent, proper friendship - not the betrayed spouse!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Extropy:
Regarding exposure, I haven't explicitly told many people. She now runs in a new social group, and this guy fits in with them. I could expose to other friends/family/superiors at her part time job, but what relevance is that?<hr /></blockquote>Family is very relevant.

Is OM married?

meremortal - just a couple months ago somebody proposed an "intervention" exposure. I mistakenly poo poo'd it as being a bit too melodrammatic until Pepperband pointed out that this is a tried and true strategy in the 12 Step Program. I never saw any further mention of it, though.

WAT

Someone in another thread say she may be experiencing an early mid-life crisis, and her new life of going to bars is part of that. Considering how I've been struggling with that internally over the past year or so, I can relate to wanting to find my own way.

I get the impression that this new group of friends fills her ENs, providing levity and companionship. It also helps that they are in their early 20s while she is in her late 20s.

I blame myself partly for this situation - I was reluctant to pay for sitting and wanted her to have her own life. Little did I know how much this would fog things up. After a healthy dose of self-education, I see how important together time is. 15 hours a week is a lot, and right now we get around 2.

I don't know much about the OM, and per other discussions on here haven't contacted him. Judging from the people I have told and discussed things with, none of them can believe the situation we are in. We are the stereotypical happy couple that others look to for inspiration.

Intervention? I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.

And what about her family? No exposure yet?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Extropy:
I don't know much about the OM, and per other discussions on here haven't contacted him.<hr /></blockquote>So you don't know if he's married?

WAT

This particular fellow is not married, and is more of an EA with some PA.

She has regular conversations with him, and still sees him as a great guy and great friend. I couldn't put my reservations into words before, but the book "Not Just Friends" describes it well...

Dr. Glass says the line is drawn when you start discussing anything of a personal nature with someone of the opposite sex. Once you cross that line you unknowingly begin to build a bond with that person that grows over days/months/years. Of course the WW doesn't quite see it that way. He's a good listner who doesn't offer advice and doesn't judge. She admits she is drawn to him.

Obviously I know at least one EN he is filling and I am not.

My wife says the same things about her 'friend'. I spoke with OM's wife, some call it exposure, I still call it a mistake. My life has been turned into a living hell. SHe has feelings of hate towards me. Its been 2 months since I spoke with OM's wife and its still very tense at my house, but easing oh-so-slightly. We can't converse and sit in the same room speachless watching TV sometimes. I can't take much of that and leave the room after 10-15 minutes of that.

What can I do to speed the fog out of here?

Hi Mark in NY,

"I spoke with OM's wife, some call it exposure, I still call it a mistake. My life has been turned into a living hell."

No doubt your wife is trying to bully you into not doing the rest of the exposure (to friends, family, coworkers if the OM works with her, the other parents at the school functions and children's birthday parties your WW and OM meet each other at)

She is angry because exposure has the potential of spoiling their fun. Her anger is an indication that exposure was the right thing for you to do. Unless you plan on just allowing your wife to cake-eat forever then you must take whatever measures you can to end the affair sooner rather than later. Right now she's probably thinking you will just leave her and the OM alone, let them continue to exploit the childrens' activities to continue meeting each other regardless of how you feel! She is confident that her tantrum over the first step of exposure has convinced you to keep her and the OM's nasty little secret so they can continue to carry on right under your nose, the OM's wife's nose, in front of the CHILDREN, and right in front of the unsuspecting teachers & other parents! She WANTS you to feel as if exposure was a mistake that you won't dare try any more of.

She and the OM claim they are "just friends" right? But you and the OM's wife aren't happy with their inappropriate "friendship" (emotional affair), right? Your WW and OM think your fears are unwarranted and intrusive, right? They think they have a RIGHT to be friends and that you are the one who is behaving inappropriately, right? So how about doing an innocent survey of family and friends, folks at the school, counselors, etc. to see if others think you and the OM's wife are just being silly?
That way you could at least appear to be trying to settle the issue, get input from third parties, rather than "tattling".

Or you could go to family & friends for advice on how to deal with your "inappropriate" fears and "jealousy" over her innocent friendship with OM. You could ask for advice on trying to understand why she wants this friendship to be kept a secret, why she is so angry about his wife knowing, why she feels she has a right to expect you to keep this secret or else! If she has a right to have a close friendship with this OM/MM, then why can't YOU discuss this with whomever you choose to? Maybe you could explain exposure to her in those terms? That YOU needed a "friend" to talk to too about this thing that is really bothering you.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you start an inappropriate, secret, "friendship" with an OW... Your seeking of support, unbiased feedback, understanding... would not be done behind anyone's back or in private (do it in a small group setting, maybe even in front of her!)

Think about it:

If what they are doing really were so innocent, then why the heck are they so upset about others knowing about it?!?!?!?!? Your wife's anger over exposure reveals that she AGREES with you that what she and the OM are doing IS sleazy and something to be ashamed of! Just what IS so wrong about anybody knowing she has an innocent friendship with another male? Why is it wrong for HIS WIFE to know he has an innocent friendship with another female?

[ March 02, 2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

Well it looks like exposure had the effect of ending their thing. On 1/27 she was pissed beyond believe (learn OMW layed down the law). Her words were something like this "congratualtions, I can't speak to my friend anymore, that should of been my choice, but you made it for me - happy now?", followed words of hate, etc. In all honesty I don't think she has yet accepted he is out of her life. SHe has not admitted any wrong doing. Quite possibly there was nothing physical and therefore she can honestly say 'no affair' (popular believe).

Last Saturday she griped about him having to leave another door of the church.

As for further exposure I think it will just turn whats left of my marriage into scorched earth. Imagine if rumors started circulating. Imagine if the kids at school caught wind of it and started teasing our children.

OM's wife is very concerned about rumors as well. Seems his last 'friendship' started rumors big time some 5-6 years ago.

This fog she's in is killing me. I'm trying hard to accept it as the way of the future. I hope I can live with it. My plan is to spend as little time as possible with her right now.

Anyone who's WS or was a WS (prefer WW) want to share fog stories and progress. I want to know what lies ahead. Is the hatred a concious atttempt to shut me up about more exposure? WHy do I feel like the bad guy?

[ March 02, 2005, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]

Mark,
I told the OM of my wife's EA with him. That got real ugly and she will not talk to me period.

Keith

Mark,

Besides the exposure are there other things that she is angry about?

legato,

back to my thread - want to keep this one foggy

Mark,
My wife's fog is very strange. She falls for men and they normally don't know. This one is ending our marraige (even though I am hoping she comes out of it again). I had not choice to call the OM and tell him. He did not believe me and then I told him of the other times and he somewhat believed me. I don't think he is interested in her as he dates lots of women.

When my WW found out, she threatnend me with a RO (just for talking to the OM).

I know what you are going through. It is awful.

I entertained the fact this guy didnt know how my wife felt about him. But he seemed all too accomidating to call when I wasn't around. He has a degree of blame at least.

He seems to be constantlt sniffing around the mothers at school too. Don't like him.

He is a predator Mark. It is a game for him to see how many women he can get. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Not all of us men are like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you ever want to chat through MSN Messenger, my address is bhinwi@hotmail.com.

MarkNY - didn't you read meremortal's excellent post to you? Go back and read it again. All was explained perfectly.

You are doing EXACTLY what your WW and her OM want you to do. WW is angry and hateful because that keeps MarkNY from interfering with her affair. She knows he will back down from her anger every time. If she wants to spend time with OM, all she has to do is be nasty to MarkNY and he will step aside and wait quietly while she goes out on her date.

Are you okay with that?

You can either stand up and fight for your marriage, or you can keep backing down whenever WW throws a tantrum so she can see her boyfriend.

Fog doesn't lift until there is NC -- but it ALSO does not lift as long as the WS has zero respect for the BS. How much respect do you think your wife has for you, when she knows all she has to do is behave like a spoiled teenager and you will back right down and do nothing?
Mulan

Mulan,

Boy ain't that the truth. Amen!

Mulan,

That hits me to my core. I think I've been far too passive in my relationship. Youre right if she yells at me and threatens to leave I typically back off. I'm getting better, but I'm not about to get on my soap box and give her a lecture on inappropriate behaviour (although I would love to). It will fall on deaf ears and be met with more resentment. Besides wouldn't a lecture be a LB?

Funny you should mention teenage behavior. My IC says ours is a parent -child like relationship. SHe blurts out I Hate You (dad), you can't tell me who I can be friends with (dad), OM is grounded my OMW.

Now she mentions leaving and I say 'if thats what you want to do, but I don't agree with that'. Somedays it starts wearing on me and I have to control myself from say 'there's the freakin door'. I'm not ready for her to take me up on that. She has now quit a very well paying job (only had in 6 mos anyway) and is working on a very part time basis (back to normal life). She is no longer in a good financial spot to leave.

There's virtually NC right now. Sightings in church are about it. She still throughs teenage tantums and tries hurting me at every turn. I know I have to be more assertive, but how not to come across as LBing?

How can I gain some respect back without coming across as 'dad'? When does the fog burn off?

***I'm not about to get on my soap box and give her a lecture on inappropriate behaviour (although I would love to). It will fall on deaf ears and be met with more resentment. Besides wouldn't a lecture be a LB?***

Yes, it would. You are right -- a lecture is not what is needed. What IS needed is a clear presentation of YOUR boundaries -- not hers, yours -- that she can see and understand.

***Now she mentions leaving and I say 'if thats what you want to do, but I don't agree with that'. Somedays it starts wearing on me and I have to control myself from say 'there's the freakin door'.***

In this case, with the way she is behaving, that is exactly what you SHOULD say.

Right now everything is YOUR fault because you won't "let her" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> do what she wants to do. Watch what happens when she gets what she thinks she wants!

All you have to say is "Dear, I want you to be happy. I am not your father and I am not your jailer. If you are not happy here and want to move out to be with your OM, then that is what you should do. Frankly, I do not want to be with someone who does not want to be with me. It's making my life miserable, too."

Then go to the front door, open it, and leave the room.

She will probably get nasty and leave for a date with OM, just to "show you." Let her go. Let her know that she can do whatever she wants EXCEPT treat you badly and throw an affair in your face. You will prevent that not by forcing her to stop -- you can't -- but by removing yourself from her presence when she treats you badly and simply not being available for this sort of treatment any more.

I think you need Plan B here before you lose all traces of love for her permanently.

***She has now quit a very well paying job (only had in 6 mos anyway) and is working on a very part time basis (back to normal life). She is no longer in a good financial spot to leave.***

And this is your problem because -- ?

SHE is the one who chose to lie and cheat and treat you like crap. Until she gets to enjoy 100% of the consequences of her own actions, she will have no reason to change.

Don't let her scare you. She's counting on it.
Mulan

Mulan,

Thanks for the advice, but I have some questions:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />***Now she mentions leaving and I say 'if thats what you want to do, but I don't agree with that'. Somedays it starts wearing on me and I have to control myself from say 'there's the freakin door'.***

In this case, with the way she is behaving, that is exactly what you SHOULD say.
<hr /></blockquote>What should I say - there's the door or the if thats what you want I dont agree. I honest;y don't want her walking out the door, so I don't want to make a threat I am not prepared to carry out.

As this point was most likely an EA OM is not waiting for her to join him. EIther way he seems to be behaving himself lately. I even question if the EA was kind of one-sided. My wife was suffering from depression (she never told me that before EA started). Says she felt lonely.

As for her loss of income that will impact us in the sense that we can not afford to support 2 households. Thats one way she (and me) are trapped. She has no place to go. I fear showing her the door will bring on the lawyers and I'll be the one shown the door.

She wants to take the kids with her (according to her). They mean the world to her (and me). Her yanking them out would be a very hard thing since we haven't told them the extent of our issue.

So right now we're living together but very low conversation, lots of tension, and next to no signs of effection (on her part).

***What should I say - there's the door or the if thats what you want I dont agree. I honest;y don't want her walking out the door, so I don't want to make a threat I am not prepared to carry out.***

You are misunderstanding. This is in no way a "threat." It is simply a recognition that you cannot and will not control HER behavior. You can only control you own.

Read this again (I added a small edit for you.)

"Dear, I do not want you to leave. I want us to have a good marriage. But I am not your father and I am not your jailer. If you are not happy here and want to move out to be with your OM, then that is what you should do. Frankly, I do not want to be with someone who does not want to be with me. It's making my life miserable, too."

She is just like the spoiled child who *thinks* they want to eat nothing but cake and ice cream for supper. Sometimes the best way to get the point across that this is not healthy is to let them try it. They have to find out for themselves that it's a sickening way to live. Until they do, they will blame you for being "mean" and not letting them do what they want.

Your WW is doing the same thing. As long as you try to prevent her from leaving, she can and will blame you for all of the problems in the marriage. You have got to put the responsibility for this where it belongs -- on HER.

***As this point was most likely an EA OM is not waiting for her to join him. EIther way he seems to be behaving himself lately. I even question if the EA was kind of one-sided. My wife was suffering from depression (she never told me that before EA started). Says she felt lonely.***

Then what are you worried about? And even if she was leaving for a full-blown PA, the point is, you CANNOT "make" her stay. Kidnapping is illegal in most countries. You can certainly tell her that you want her to stay, as I wrote out above, but you seem to think you are in control of whether she leaves or not. You aren't. You are only getting a false sense of security while she cake-eats and uses you.

By trying to protect her from the consequences of her own behavior, you are acting like a (poor) father instead of like a loving husband. And the vicious circle goes round and round . . .

***As for her loss of income that will impact us in the sense that we can not afford to support 2 households. Thats one way she (and me) are trapped. She has no place to go. I fear showing her the door will bring on the lawyers and I'll be the one shown the door.***

***She wants to take the kids with her (according to her). They mean the world to her (and me). Her yanking them out would be a very hard thing since we haven't told them the extent of our issue.***

These are legal questions. You need legal help with them. Get an attorney -- many will consult with you for free -- and do something NOW to protect yourself and your children. If you do nothing, you will not have a leg to stand on if/when she does pull a stunt like trying to leave with the children. The courts will want to know why you simply lived with this wretched situation and did nothing to protect your family.

***So right now we're living together but very low conversation, lots of tension, and next to no signs of effection (on her part).***

Yes, you walk on eggshells and hold your breath and listen to your heart pound, scared to death of what she might do next. She is holding you hostage and you are letting her do it.

You seem to be confusing "throwing her out" with "telling her she's free to leave." They are NOT the same thing. You aren't telling her you want her to get out. You are calling her bluff by telling her that if she truly wants to leave, that's what she should do. You can also tell her that you don't want her to leave, but you understand that she is an adult and you aren't about to tie her up and force her to stay.

Do you see the difference?

This wretched situation is going to last a long, long time unless somebody does something to break the cycle. She doesn't really want to leave. She wants to cake-eat at your expense. She will do this as long as you let her, and she will be hateful and bullying to you because that lets her cake-eat.

She behaves this way because it works for her. How long are you willing to let you and your children live like this?
Mulan