I recently discovered for sure that my husband had had an affair some years ago. I had suspected that was the case but had no proof except my instinct. he travels away from home alot so i could do little about it. recently, when he canme home i found evidence of extra marital activity!!

At first he denied it but i was calm and talked about needs etc and told him that i blamed us both for neglecting each other. he seemed contrite. he admitted having an affair for a number of years some time ago but that it was well over - he said that the decision to end was mutual but i feel that she dumped him - while he was travelling - he said it helped him, he needed 'comfort' while he was away from home but generally these things meant nothing. of course the long relationship that he walked away from meant that he finally decided that i was the one for him.

so why these other 'flings' that mean nothing?he says they are simply for comfort.What about my needs for comfort? what about the fact that i keep the home fires burning? what about all the things i do to keep our children on a steady path?My youngest sensed my unhappiness about a year ago and i said i was unhappy with daddy being away from us so much and he asked me not to leave daddy cos it would be awful. My oldest thinks i should leave daddy cos he hardly knows us or participates in our lives anyway.

I feel so alone , so hurt - i KNOW I would just leave him if it were not for the children. I dont see how we can rebuild any sense of trust for as long as he travels 70% of the time. He rarely texts or emails - in fact he only does so in response to my texts and emails. He SAYS he loves me and doesnt want to separate - of course not - he has unprotected sex with me when he s home. He says he 'mostly' protects himself while he's away but not always.

I felt that he was going back to someone special this last time but he was adamant that was not the case. he says he never meant to hurt me but why would a man who can have the best of both worlds give up such a life? he says he doesnt like all the travel that his job involves but that he feels responsible and must pay the bills - we are in our fifties and he only started travelling about 8 years ago - before that i always felt so close to him.

I think his taste for other women started when we were having a bad patch about 9 years ago and he had a fling - until then i would never have thought him capable - and indeed he only told me cos he had to - he had caught something nasty. Please help me sort out my feelings - he absolutely refuses to go to counselling - i know i've been a real dork in letting someone take such advantage of me but i feel i cant talk to friends about this - i think thats where he wins cos i'm so loyal to him. Please HELP!

I'm so sorry you are here and going through this.

You need to read Surviving an Affair to start.

I think you should call Steve Harley and let him help you with a plan.

If your WS is serious about a relationship with you, he better be writing his resume for a stateside job where you can live with him. Living like you are is not good for a relationship.

ps: pleas break your post into paragraphs- you will get more responses.

thank you for your response. It's good to feel there are people out there who can advise.

we talked about him changing his job but he seems to have lost all confidence in himself. he says if he had the courage he would look for other work - but he's one of these people who's defined by what he does - he couldnt take on a job with less status - i don't know - maybe we'll get there. in the meantime, how do i try to rebuild and cater to his needs when he's home? I feel the need to have only protected sex which will show i don't trust him and of course it will not please him!

i've read SO much around this topic but my situation seems utterly hopeless - unless he comes home for good there IS no hope! I really would just go if it weren't for the kids - i guess i've made my decision!

Please do not have unprotected sex with him. Make an appointment with your gyno to be tested for stds.

Can you call Steve Harley? I think he would be the best route for you right now.

Did he say he was not going to do this again? I mean, did he act repentant?

I was thinking maybe you could ask him to keep him informed on where he is, what he is doing, show you his calendar, you review his cell records, phone calls, hotel bills, etc as accountablity.

I wish I knew what else to tell you. Him being away is going to be difficult.

take care

ancast

Sorry to be so pessimistic but unless you can set some boundaries and he will stick with them you will never be safe with him. My recommendation? Kick his wayward [censored] to the kerb.

Ancast, the only way thing I can say to you is you MAY have some hope if you can get him to:

1. Go to IC
2. Be a complete open book to you
3. If he is a Christian go to the "Every Man's Battle" workshop
4. Find an accountability partner
5. Get a full STD panel
6. Apologize to you and your children
7. Quit traveling

i feel SO sick. I KNOW that he has to give up this travelling - there seems to be no other way out. He seems repentant but says there are no guarantees in this world and he cant promise not to be tempted again. he actually asked me what the big deal was!! of course i told him i was scared of getting stds and probably something much worse. I told him i just want to be dead cos what i'm feeling is so unbearable.
he said he felt empty and was sorry. I WANT to make it work but dont see how i can be nice to him and still make him see that i'm serious. I just feel as if there is no other way than to leave him - of course that creates problems for my kids - my youngest is 14 - and the finance problem is something that scares me! O help.

Ancast, every betrayed spouse is entitled to make the decision whether to stay and work on the marriage or not. Your husband has indulged himself with an unknown number of adulteries through the years and he is actually unrepentant. He asks you what the big deal is, right? That's not repentant. On top of that, he belittles your concern about them and the chance of giving you a sexually transmitted disease. Is that a fair summary of what you're going through?

If it is, I firmly believe chronic infidelities committed over a period of time probably point to a previously undetected character defect in the wayward spouse. The marriage went through a bad spell nine years ago and he chose to solve his problems by committing adultery. He’s found that to be a comfortable lifestyle and he won't quit until he has no option. That’s not something you can afford to put up with. Sooner or later, you and he will experience the h3ll of an STD.

Something you need to understand is you are not alone. Many of the regulars here on MB have gone through similar times in their lives and have come out whole and sane on the other side. We can be your support group through this.

Ancast, many marriages survive an infidelity. Often they recover because of the children. In your case though, I wonder if you should make your decision based on them. It seems they have an already established detachment from their father and would not suffer nearly as much as younger and more dependent children would.

I think you need to go to an attorney and find out what your legal options are. For instance, a legal separation may jolt your husband and get him to pay attention to his responsibilities. It might not. If you file a petition for divorce though, your husband will be required to meet his financial obligations to his family. You can survive and thrive, Ancast. Many others already have. You are stronger than you think you are.

Now, if you want to work on your relationship, you have a lot of work ahead of you. There is no guarantee you will recover your marriage but you've come to a place where you will learn techniques that will give you a fighting chance anyway. Dr. Harley has laid out a plan to recover marriages in his book Surviving An Affair. That book is available in the MB bookstore and you should order a copy of it immediately. In the meantime, begin by reading articles on this website. WAT’s thread on the “Just Found Out” forum is a great place to begin. Then look at the “Most Popular Links” on the top right of every MB page. Educate yourself on Dr. Harley’s program.

Part of that program is that you have to set limits (we call them boundaries) on conduct you will accept on the part of your spouse. One of the critical ones for you is for your husband to stop traveling on these trips. He got along without them before the hard times your marriage experienced. He can get along without them now.

You tell us, Ancast. You sit down and make a calm analysis of whether you want to work on this marriage or not. You decide what is best for you and your children and then tell us what you want to do. Either way, there will be folks here on MB to help you work through it. Hang in there, lady.

I have just come back to the forum because i felt that the people who responded to my last pleas thought the only answer was to get out of this marriage. I kindof think that but would like to be a bit hopeful - i'm in such a daze.

I'm trying to be unbiased here and calm -but i spent the time away from the forum sorting out my son who needed some help with his studies. It was hard to stay normal in front of him but i held my emotions in.

Things i didnt say before - we had a baby boy 16 years ago who died aged 52 days from a kidney disease. That was SO hard but my H and i were SO together and just there for each other - i couldnt believe how close we were and how much we helped each other and our little girl who was 4 at the time.

Immediately after his burial however, we just sort of dealt with our emotions by our selves - i wanted to talk but i thought i was strong and H decided he simply didnt want to discuss it - it was over, in the past, let's get on with our lives. well i reckon there was too much hurt built up inside both of us - i think thats where we started to lose our communication skills.

My feelings built up and i always seemed to be angry. We then had another boy who is our 14 year old - and he is just lovely. Even though i knew i should cherish my two lovely children and my lovely husband i always felt resentful and showed it. I'm trying not to make excuses for him, I'm trying to be honest. He was working hard, i was working part-time and i put alot into my job, now i've changed it and i know i used to put far too much energy into my job and my kids.

I guess I'm saying i resented my H for not talking to me about our first son. And i was trying to respect his different way of dealing with the pain.My H was orphaned when he was quite young and spent alot of his younger years being looked after by relatives who couldnt really afford to have him around - he's always spoken about his feelings of being alone - sometimes he'd say that was life, it was tough but you just have to do what you have to do and get on with it.Sometimes he'd say how alone he felt.

Even as i write this i cant believe how i, how we, could have let things get so bad between us.We'd been together for 17 years before our first son died and people always commented onhow 'in tune' we both were and how lucky we were to have each other.
I spose that's why i feel SO sad - so much to have gone through (there's other stuff like when he nearly died after a botched up hospital stay when our little girl was only four months old!!)

So that first A 9 years ago was a real shock. I thought that was our warning and we'd better get ourselves back on track. We talked alot and i thought we understood each other better - he agreed to go to counselling then but in the end i thought we could get by - i read loads of books and we talked and talked. it seemed ok - until his job changed - he didnt actually move companies, the place he workes decided it needed him to go out and about to all these distant countries to sort out problems that evidently couldnt be sorted from a distance. So he didnt choose to travel.

The company was changing hands quite a bit and lots of peole were losing their jobs - he has always had this great sense of responsibilty, in terms of keeping a homefor his family - that's important to him, keeping the family together.
When we talked about these latest problems he said that his two-year A happened because he kept going to the same city and it was comforting to have someone familiar 'show him around'. Now his travel is very much more broken up - on one trip he goes to lots of places for shorter visits each. So this is where the 'flings' come in - these are the things that i shouldn't 'make such a big deal about'.I have no idea how many there have been - maybe just one or two, maybe lots. I knew, but didnt actually 'know' about his 2 year A and i chose to keep quiet - so it ended. Fine - and now he has been honest to me about it - he must have thought he got lucky, not getting found out - but then to find that collar!

This last time he came back we were getting along fine, in fact really cosily and contented and i had high hopes of us moving ahead and making plans for our future with more time for each other now the kids are older. I knew that the 2-year A was over and was so glad but this latest thinghas really thrown me.

While he was here the last time we did talk and talk - and for such a long time that has simply not happened - not real feelings talk. I dont see how at his age he can easily change jobs and this is what he says - he wants to be home but doesnt see how. He says that the fact that he left the OW means that he is committed to me, he chose to stay - he says they decided to break up as a mutual decision cos she wanted more commitment from him that he wasnt prepared to give. But the fact tht he wont/cant guarantee to stay away from these meaningless temptations??? I talked about the fact that if we strengthened our bonds, if we really got back to a stronger unit then he surely wouldnt be tempted - he said he didnt think our bonds affected what happens when he's away - what on earth does THAT mean? does he just not think that we have any hope of getting strong feelings back? Has he forgotten how we used to feel@ did he NEVER really feel that way?Is he just confused?

I've gone onand on, i'm sorry but writing all this has cleared myhead a bit - there's more, much more to think about - i do love him so much but that got lost along the way - I'm talking like a teenager. One of the things i told him i didnt like was the way he hardly contacted me while he was away, he really only ever responded to my messages. This last time he was back i explained, clearly, how i felt about that and since he's been gone this last week he has emailed and texted every day asking how i am and telling me in which country he is and where he's off to next etc

My worry is that he's just going thro the motions cos he realises that a split would be heavy on his wallet. But then if he really was that hard he wouldnt be bothering would he? Oh, i'm going round in circles - maybe you can make some sense of this. Please? I've already ordered some books - they'll be here tomorrow i think so i can get down to some serious study. I need to know how to be next time he gets back - he tends to be away for three weeks and then home for one. Thank you so much for being out there - i really need this life-line. I have a friend in a worse position than me - we talk as much as we can but she has very little time to get away. Thank you thank you.

Ancast, if you are interested in trying to save your marriage I can recommend a couple of books for you.

1. Surviving An Affair by Harley
2. Love Must Be Tough by Dr. James Dobson
3. Boundaries in Marriage by Townsend and Cloud

Be prepared to make and enforce your own boundaries with regard to your WH and your marriage. In the end the best you can do is protect yourself and your children.

I've got some books and am reading whenever i have the chance - i posted my last response some days ago - i said lots about our history - i feel as if i am so much to blame - i'm about to really study the Plan A to see if that is the way to go - boundaries i know must be set and i have to think thro what i want - I could do with some advice as to how to behave when my H returns from his latest trip next weekend. I feel as if i want some more answers but i dont know whether i should be just totally loving and tend to his needs. even if i re-explain my own needs while looking after his - doesnt that just give him the licence to carry on doing what suits him? i really dont think he is a bad person - i've always said that he was good but am i just kidding myself?I dont want to fight with him but i DO want to start clearing things up one way or another. Please advise.I just dont think it is realistic that he could find closer employment at this stage - but am i just making excuses?help - please. I've spent so much time reading other peoples' posts and am beginning to think that i'm just a whiner - i've read some real horror stories!

i want to try to save this relationship - posted details that i thought might shed some light on things but have had no replies and i'm feeling pretty lonely out here. i'm not sure i understand this forum system - should i be making new postings somewhere else?

anyway, i'll try again cos i need advice.

my H will be home soon after a 3 week trip away. i have read so much these last weeks i think i'm going crazy but i have tried to understand. he will return and want to have sex.I have talked to a couple of friends who advise extreme caution - they have gone thu divorce recently themselves and think i should try to save my marriage - they know him well and dont understand his actions - they think it all seems totally odd, so unlike him - i actually WANT to try to be nice - to try Plan A - but i dont feel happy to have sex without protection - we have never had sex without protection but i feel i have to insist on this - i'm scared that he will just say 'thats it, then' and that WILL be it, without a fight. I've got three days to sort this out - the books dont seem to have this scenario in mind - if h were here all the time i'd know what to do - please answer.

Ancast - your husband sounds like a long-term serial cheater. For him, infidelity is not an aberration of character - it's a lifestyle that he's comfortable with.

I'm sorry to tell you that there is little hope for changing somebody like this. If you want to say you tried, you can do the following:

Plan A for a short time - maybe a couple of weeks. And I personally agree totally with your decision not to have sex with a man who has admitted to sleeping with other women and doesn't consider this to be any big deal. The physical *and* emotional consequences for you are just too high.

During Plan A, read the books and ask your husband to complete the Emotional Needs questionnaire with you. If he refuses, fill it out for him and post it here (yours and his both.)

After Plan A, strongly consider going to Plan B. It usually takes an extreme wake-up call to get through to somebody like this.

You must set down some boundaries. The first one can be sex. Think about it - if he will threaten you with divorce for not giving him sex when he's cheating, do you really want him? No high school girl would fall for that!

There seem to be no boundaries in your relationhip, so he feels free to walk all over you, treat your marriage like a joke and then threaten to divorce you if you don't like it.

Please read all you can about boundaries in a healthy relationship. And if you want things to have a chance of changing, be prepared to stand up to him and to have him get angry and try to bully you into submission again.

Please keep posting and let us know how it's going.
Mulan

oh. This is going to be tough. Scary. Confusing. I just dont understand how we got to this place. This is so like a bad dream - I just wish I could wake up and find out it wasnt happening.

Thanks for the advice. Will keep you posted.

Ancast

Ancast; I don't profess to be an expert, I'm only 8wks out from dday myself. May I say how sorry I am that a person as thoughtful and kind as yourself is being treated this way.IMHO I would suggest IC for your husband.

I know the ideas of some here are to focus only on marriage issues but your H seems to have had a tough time of it when he was young... is it possible he uses these A's to keep you at a distance in his own mind? Perhaps he feels the leftover insecurity of not measuring up during childhood, he might be afraid that you're too good for him and at some point you will realize this and leave him. Sorry for the psychobabble but it's precisely what my Wh quoted me after about 6wks of IC and 3wks of MC. He needs to reassure himself he's "good enough" by using exterior stimuli, the A'S, instead of working on actually believing it himself.

My H is a prof athlete and also spends a great deal of time away from me and 3kids. He is trying to behave his way back into my life and home. I'm having a very difficult time with the SF and physical attraction/affection portion of the program. I have forced myself into it several times with disasterous results.

I continue to try and remain openminded and receptive to any and all things that may be helpful.

I hope you experience some relief from this pain and uncertainty.

Mmmmm, interesting. Very useful input - not psychobabble to my mind - i think I 've known these things all along - the bit about H's childhood lomeliness. I don't believe he's heartless. I DO beleve we both could have handled things more gently, more considerately along the way. I DO believe we have both been neglectful.

I'm still very worried about him coming home soon - I Just don't know how i'll be - or even how i want to be. I'm SO glad to have received contact from someone whose H's work also takes him away from home - it DOES have a different slant on things. Expecting them to change their work is not an easy option - that kind of change can bring a different set of problems anyway - I looked on the forum to see details of your story but i couldnt see the beginning - I'm not sure I know my way around yet.

Please keep in touch - I felt very comforted by your message - though I'm at a point where I really do not want to make excuses for either of us - i just want to get to the truth. he may come back next time, having thought about what was said last time and announce that actually he wants to go - who knows? I feel sure that we've only just begun REALLY talking and what more there is to know, maybe i dont want to know. I definitely realise now that I must decide on what I want and set boundaries - this, I know has been my failing in trying to please my H.

Thank you for your posting. I hope we can help eah other.
Ancast

Ancast, so sorry things are still tough. Yes the travelling does make a difference, and is not likely to change in my situation. My H left for 1and a half weeks 4days after dday.
He has been gone this time for 1 and a half week and still has another week out.

Sometimes it's good time for reflection, but there's also sometimes too much of a good thing. I'm a stay at home with 3 kids under 11yrs, youngest is 5. I am reading your anxiety and totally relating to it.

I agree wholeheartedly with several other posters- he will continue living "the best of both worlds" until you no longer allow him to. You are worthy of being respected as a woman, partner, mother of his children. This is not respect.
Do not allow him to endanger your health and thus put the life of your family at risk by continuing this behavior.

My H and I used to have the same priorities-his happiness and his wants and needs. Even I did not impose my own need for respect and consideration so certainly he did not. Do not follow my lead, take a stand- the world does not revolve around him.

I am still struggling with the whole physical/SF thing but am trying to put what I've been reading in books and at this site into practice. If it doesn't work out at this point I feel I've overturned every stone I can.

WE will not die without them, it will be difficult and different but not impossible. For the children the fact that he is physically absent often almost makes the physical portion of separation easier - if that becomes the only option.

Please don't read that I'm pro separation- I just don't want you to stay because you feel caged in.

Good luck this week, keep me posted (no pun intended).

so now I'm hopelessly confused! I'm going round in circles I've read so much and tried to take so much in.

He came home - all sunny and ok - he seemed concerned about me and tender but did not make any move to touch me - he probably thought i wouldn't want it. I have to admit i was a bit snappy even when he tried to give me a couple of presents - which I've had a quick look at secretly and they are rather nice - but I told him I wanted to talk when he was ready.

I think I've done it all wrong - but I can't implement Plan A until he's apologised can I? He STILL doesnt seem to get it. He said that we could just carry on as we are without sex if it bothers me!!! What the ****** does that mean? I suggested that he might prefer to stay away completely if he can't make a better effort at understanding me.

I'm going now to re-read some of the sections of my books to see if I missed something.

I wish somebody out there could advise me.

He WAS very upset and looked at me painfully and told me how difficult all this was for him. Of course I told him it wasn't exactly a picnic for me too. He applied for two jobs already to try to get working back in the country but was not successful. I KNOW this - he showed me details. So there are some odd contradictions here. Apologies don't come easy to him - our 21 year old took him on about that several times over the years.

Any advice would be welcome. I've no idea how today will end - I left the house without speaking this morning and walked to work, normally he drops me off on his way to his office - (I left him a letter trying to explain my needs and asked him to write to me if he felt better about that) - because I just could not get him to talk yesterday - I KNOW i started too harsh but it annoyed me that he seemed to think he could just come home from his trip and all would be forgotten and forgiven.

Ancast, have you re-read the whole Plan A-B thing? This might prove helpful.

I don't profess to be any kind of expert but perhaps the whole letter idea might be a more comfortable way for him to open up. This was the first successful mode of communication I received from my H, sometimes he just can't say what he means and he finds it easier to write than to speak.

Because he has difficulty with the on the spot communication he has taken to writing notes ahead of time so when we do have the discussion he is ready. Would your H find this helpful?

I empathize with the frustration about not being too harsh on him but if you want to open a dialogue...(I know, it bites!)

I'm glad there are some positives for you ie, he's actively looking for local work, stay in the game girl!

Hopefully someone with more experience than I can be more helpful with suggestions.

thank you - at least we're being civil, but cagey. I have just got a big load of work to deal with - I've got behind (surprise!) and just HAVE to deal with that - so my reading will need to stop for day or two. I'll be back!!

Incidentally - how are things with you? I haven't been able to spend as long as usual searching the forum but i'd like to hear of your progress.
ancast

Ancast, you plan A without an apology. Most people do. It would be nice to have one, but you may not get one for a while.

Read up on Plan A and go for it.

OK so I've read up on plan A. I have obviously got things a bit wrong but I AM still aching with the pain of all this. I'm not functioning at all well tho I try to be as normal as possible in front of our son. I realise that an apology may never happen. I've read and re-read so much my head is spinning.

H is going back on a trip on wednesday - i'm conscious of time running out and we seem to have gone backwards -we have had NO physical contact at all - in bed we are both clinging to our own edges of the bed trying hard not to come near each other. before I discovered that lipstick stained collar we were always wrapped right round each other all night!

I just CANT cope with the lack of physical contact. We're hardly speaking to each other - it's only to say basic things like who will go pick up our boy from his training session or whatever.

We went out with some good friends last night - my girlfriend knows but not her H - my H does not know that she knows - the eveningwas not much fun actually - I'm finding it SO hard to let go and get on with being nice. I kindof want him to go away and leave me in peace but then I think that he'll just find some other female for his sex while he's away and that'll make matters worse.

He has not responded to my letter but he has tucked it in his drawer next to our bed. I HAD wondered if he might just throw it away and think it was silly. I just want him to reach out and hug me - I so WANT to hug him but I'm kindof feeling that he thinks I'm not worth it.

I just left his presents on the table untouched. I suppose i have to accept them and tell him how thoughtful - but you know, I think I only got them cos he felt guilty! I really dont want his guilt presents - i want his presence!!! and i told him.

I'mstarting to think that this haul is just not worth it - i wonder if divorce, tho devastating, will be quicker to get through. And then i think how wonderful he was - people always tell me, always HAVE told me what a lovely lovely person he is. Why did i let this happen? and why cant i just let go of this pain and be nice?

This is jsut so much worse than when our first son died!

ancast, I'm so sorry you're in such a position. I tried the compartmentalizing bit as well but wasn't very successful. It's extrememly difficult to socialize and pretend everything's wonderful when you're ready to wring his neck.

I doubt it's any easier going through a D, especially at this stage. I think you would always wonder "what if...". At least if you hang in there and complete the plan, to the best of your ability, you will feel more settled. Once you feel you've done everything you can and he's not reciprocating I think it'll be more peaceful to let it go.
I doubt anything is easy but at least you wouldn't be second guessing your actions.

Chin up girl, we're all about building character right? lol!

thank you apl and moveforward for keep looking in on me - i feel so alone at the moment.

i really seem to have messed up - i know i'm supposed to be nice - he thinks i'm being deliberately mean but i just can't look further than how i'm feeling at the moment.

i HAVEread so much and when i'm sitting with the books in front of me things seem to make sense and then i do a brilliant LB
we talked a bit last night about my feelings but he just wants to move on and forget everything - i KNOW this is fairly usual behaviour but i'm finding it so difficult.plan A seems like somebody else's dream, so distant from this reality i'm going through. at one point though i DID feel that we had made a different kind of contact - when we got on to how we both had misinterpreted each other's actions but had never actually spoken about those things.

he goes away again in two days' time and i don't want us to part with this distance between us. i've tried holding him but he just ignores me.

do i just let things go this time and try harder next time he's back?

thanks for the help and for listening,
ancast

I feel for you.
My current client allows me to work from home full time. This has been a godsend for my marriage. My FWW quit her job after DDay so we've been home together working on recovery full time.
Unfortunately my project is nearing it's end and most likely I will be required to travel mon-thurs again for the next client. I am dreading this.

ancast, I don't know what to say, I wish I could null the pain for you. You are obviously a very strong person to be able to withstand all that you have to this point. I doubt there would be many with the courage to continue in this vien as you are.

Have faith in yourself that you will get through this regardless of the outcome. As for the physical closeness, if it's something you've discussed and he realizes that it's a priority for you I have to wonder why he's witholding it.

Is he still trying to put you in an insecure position so he feels more powerful? Does this distract him from the awful behavior he has been displaying?

I think the whole plan A thing means bite your tongue, sit on your hands, bang your head against the brick wall, but at all costs...BE NICE! You aren't likely to get much in the way of reciprocation out of this guy until he is actively involved in improving/repairing your M.

My H just returned from Vegas after 2.5wks. The night after he returned he asked if we could watch a movie together after the kids were in bed. OK. 12:30am his cell rings, he says hi, oh ah not much , nothing, ok yeah hi, nope not much ....Turns out his buddy from Vegas was out with his girlfriend and 2 other girls that they had been out with while H was there. He had been telling me about going out for great dinners, fun nights etc..but no mention of these girls.

Now, he swears nothing happened, can't figure out why they called him that night, has no explanation for why he didn't tell them he was watching a movie with me. He didn't tell me before because he wanted to "avoid the conflict on the phone".

We have MC this week and my topic is how he repeatedly displays his inability to put my feelings above his own if it means he has to sacrifice anything(time, comfort, money etc) Back to the drawing board!

not sure that I am so strong. I think we just have so much history together that I reckon on not wanting to let go without a fight. I actually DO think he adores me but just feels that it weakens him if he shows it! A couple of nights ago I had made a nice meal for the two of us and our son and H made a supposedly jokey comment which I took in a bad way (because I was feeling pent up I guess) and i just poured forth a whole load of venom - didnt say anything nasty or destructive but i DID say that comments the like of the one he made were not necessary or helpful to anybody.

I DID say it angrily. I pointed out that I had done a long days work and would appreciate some appreciation of the way I rally round supporting everyone and putting them before me.

Our boy was quite upset. H was also upset - in fact he went off upstairs to lay on the bed quietly. I honestly think that he didnt understand what had happened - he thought he'd made a joke and under other circumstances maybe i could have seen it that way.

When he came back down I could have sworn that he'd been crying! but he'll never let me see this - or very rarely. I saw him cry twice when our baby boy was dying. So that night in bed I decided to start a conversation about how things were/are. as i said in a previous post, we seemed to touch on things that we never reached before - even when things were good. He was amazed at the idea that some things i have done over the years were seen by me as acts of total and utter devotion to him. He told me about things that he felt were his acts of total devotion to me. so i guess we were starting to get on each others wave length.

but we left that conversation upset with each other and feeling frustrated - well at least i did. i told him that i really wanted him to just reach out to me and tell me that everything woould be ok. i told him how disapointed i was that he had not managed to speak to me or write. so i said i couldnt think of anything else to do but suppose he didnt care.
He said that he was upset at my 'ultimatum'. I issued no such thing - i simply said that we had to work around his apparent need to be with other women when he's away and my need to feel safe - i told him that he was free to endanger his own health if he wanted but he had no right to impose any risks on me. i guess he took that as an ultimatum - i didnt see it that way but i guess it was now i look back.

ok - so let him be upset. poor child - nasty lady spoiling his game!
anyway, last night i asked him outright for a hug cos i really needed one. and i got it. so there are glimpses of light but the longhaul will be a really long one until he changes his job - if indeed he can! i think i will be able to be nice onhis next visit cos i aim to see him change.

as for you, it's hard to know whether your H was having innocent outings while he was away - he MAY well have thought you'd be upset if he told you - it's so hard, isnt it, to believe anythingthey say? At least he wanted to spend some time with you. I'll be interested to hear what your MC says. And THATS a move in the right direction isnt it, that he goes to MC? My H thinks we can work this out by ourselves - I thinkhe's scared that lots more garbage will come out if we go to MC - we'll see. AsI said, a long haul! but, yes, real character building. keep posting - I feel less alone when i come onto this forum.
keep well, Ancast

should I be starting a new thread?
I dont think I relly understand how this forum works.
I'm feeling lonely and fed up - I'm basically at home alone with my DS for whom I care and do all the running around - he is GORGEOUS and a very sensitive, caring son - my DD is away studying and calls home when she needs advice/help/cash. she, too, is gorgeous - the sort of honest to goodness gal you'd like your son to meet and marry. She doesnt know any details but she knows her dad has been making her mom unhappy and she thinks her mom should find a new life and go and do what ever it is that might make her happy.
Trouble is - mom wants dad to stay at home and be faithful.
Tonight my 14 year old boy was so so so sad- he asks me why I'm so sad.
Its affecting his relationships in all aspects of his life. I SO want to tell him that his dad is being mean. I SO want to explain my own sadness.
I'm at a loss.
I thought recently thati could just letgo and start again when my H comes back next time - but i'm STILL crying uncontrollably at odd times. If it wernt for my boy I'd just WALK. I HATE MY LIFE!
I feel SO alone when no-one replies to me. I've spent SO long reading so many other peoples posts and I'm so mixed up - I think I really love my H - or am I just scared of the unknown? we've been together so long - but actually the companionship has been missing for so long. I only want to feel cared for. He says he does but boy - he doesnt show it!
Ancast

Ancast - please re-read my post to you from 4/25, as well as some of the earlier ones. You do not seem to have any sort of plan at all but are just floundering helplessly. That's not going to accomplish a thing except to give WH free rein to keep walking all over you.

Will your WH discuss any of the MB concepts with you, like Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA)?

Have you thought about doing a short Plan A followed by a pitch-dark Plan B? That's usually what it takes to get through to a WH like him.
Mulan

Ancast, I'm so sorry you're still not receiving what you need from H. The passive aggressive "jokes" are obviously your rage seeping out. You have every right to be very angry with him.

I think Mulan hit the nail on the head, you need a plan. It sounds like you're doing everything right and just waiting for him to change his behavior. News flash- it won't happen!

By continually waiting for him to step up to the plate you're building up resentment towards him because of your situation. I read something recently "resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die".
Don't put yourself in this situation.

If H won't see MC maybe you can explore your fear of not having him in your life on your own. Is this something you feel comfortable discussing with IC?

I think I face some very similar fears, can I do it all by myself, what about the kids, finances, retirement etc. I even get p**sed when I think about how much I've done for him and how he will continue to live a lavish life and I will be living on about 25% of what we have now, not to mention all the perks he will continue to enjoy while I go into debt just to make ends meet.

I'm continuing to put one foot infront of the other and hope I'm moving in the right direction.

Keep it up, make it more about you, less about him.

Thank you Mulan and apl.
You see, I just don't see how I CAN do a Plan A when he comes home for a week and then goes on business again for three weeks. The answer is that he should change jobs - which he's tried. He isnt happy doing the job he does but he feels he has to in order to financially support his family.
He is basically a good person. I think he had that fling all those years ago (incidentally when he wasnt travelling on business), got caught but then saw an opportunity while out of the country and thought 'Why not?'
He isn't ALL horrible - he just wants to forget and carry on as if nothing bad has happened. I, of course want to keep talking.
He says that even if everything were REALLY perfect and rosy with me it still wouldnt 'affair proof' our M because what he does while away ('IF he does it' is only to get immediate comfort and has nothing to do with me)
This presumably is his denial - he's doing nothing wrong.But he has shown great distress at seeing me break down.
I need to exorcise these thoughts that keep invading my mind. I'm trying NLP techniques. I've tried just accepting that this is where we are and altho its not where we were meant to be I just have to get on with it.
I keep thinking I can go on for three more years until my boy is in college and then I start my own life. Would MC work on a monthly basis?
He HAS made big improvements like contacting on a pretty well daily basis ( he's at the opposite end of the world - literally). He brings me nice presents.
He HAS listened to me and been pretty honest but I did some snooping and found a photo of a pretty young thing with a loving message on the back. I don't want him to know how I know about that because that wasnt part of his confession. He HAS to ditch that photo - but I cant tell him.
I was doing ok until i snooped. THIS is the problem.

So, yes, I'm floundering. And in the meantime my boy is suffering. I'm going to go and read some more and try to get myself sorted before next weekend.
Thank you for all the advice. I'll go back and re read that post, Mulan.

Mulan,
I just re read your 04/25 post. Thank you, clear steps to follow. I must write down my plan.
I must stick to it. I think I shouls keep it handy so I can keep referring to it and remind myself that I am 'on a mission' to try to improve/save my M.

Plan B would hardly hit home because he's away so much anyway - but let's not go there just yet.

The other point is that he has never threatened ME with divorce - I was expressing a fear of mine. I'M the one who has suggested that if he feels so distant from me and can find what he wants elsewhere then maybe that option would solve alot of our problems. He said divorce was not what he wanted.
But then I think 'of course you dont want to divorce someone who is always there 'keeping house' and caring for the kids. Nice life!'

Back to the books! They do make alot of sense but I need alot of reminding.
thanks again

***because what he does while away ('IF he does it' is only to get immediate comfort and has nothing to do with me)***

This, IMO, is the heart of your problem. Unless and until he has a fundamental shift in understanding here, he will never change.

My WH has told me this, too - very ANGRILY insisted that what he does at work should not affect me and I need to just STOP letting it affect me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is it with these people???

Actually, it's called compartmentalization. He puts his work life in one box and his home life in another box, and in his mind the two never overlap in any way. You are in the box marked "home," so he cannot fathom why what happens at work has anything at all to do with you.

This is a terribly, terribly cold-blooded way to treat another human being - putting them in a box like a pencil and fully expecting them to just stay in that box until needed - but many, many people do this and IMO the majority of them are men. Men seem to be even better at compartmentalizing than women are.

Unless and until it dawns on your husband that your life -- and your marriage - does not stop just because he's at work, he will not ever change. He will continue to see you as a thing rather than a person - just something to be taken out and used when he needs it, and then put back in the box when he's done.

My husband does exactly the same thing and is furious that I won't go along with this. After all, it's a GREAT arrangment for HIM!

Maybe somebody else has a cure for this. Plan B or maybe Plan D are the only ones I know of.

Good luck to you.
Mulan

Heh..

Well..if it's a box I daresay the lid opens in one direction only.

Is he OK then with you having men in his home and in his bed while he is in his "work" box?

I mean..the two NEVER overlap afterall. [snerk]

Or rather..are you folded up and put away until he comes back and is ready to plug you in and have "home" box time?

So, Mulan, what do YOU do about it? Are you divorced?
I've been reading and working on my feelings all day. I'm not usually able to spend so much time like this but I've been home alone all day so decided to get something concrete worked out.
I've read lots and lots of old posts - found a good one from Lora I think, about how she now feels she wasted four years obsessing about her H's A - and now she's seriously ill and that puts things into perspective. I recognised that I am starting to obsess - not good!

I'm going to get this guy of mine to open up come what may. And he DOES when I handle things well. I'm going to get HIM to beg ME to talk.

I'm going to get this guy of mine to really appreciate the deal he's got with me. And when he understands THAT he'll have to cope with the idea that deals can be broken if BOTH sides aren't happy.

Fighting talk? You bet!
I now have a plan! Thanks everyone.
I'll be back! Ancast

ancast,

I read your thread during lunch. I have two take-aways.

First, you don’t seem very intent on getting advice. Right now you seem to need support and understanding the most. There is very good actionable advice in here. But you appear to generally ignore it. You do not ignore the, “You poor dear, I know what you are feeling,” posts, however.

Now, this is fine. You need this too. But you will have to cobble a plan together sooner than later, and act on it resolutely.

Second, I think you need to study up on Plan A. The plan you want is a plan to save you, and your M can come along for the ride. The plan you want is Plan A.

You wrote: “You see, I just don't see how I CAN do a Plan A when he comes home for a week and then goes on business again for three weeks. The answer is that he should change jobs –“

Plan A is as much about you as it is the WS. In fact, Plan A is really mostly about you. Plan A is where you start to become the person you want most to be in life. If it is also the person WS once loved and wanted to marry, so much the better.

Plan A is not about you changing the WS. Only they can do that for themselves. As a negotiation to end the A, Plan A is dangling the advantages of your M, and you, in front of the WS. It is about remaking you into an all-around better person. Plan A is where you change your behaviors, you demonstrate that you can meet ENs, you eliminate DJs and LBs, and you establish your immovable boundaries. You don’t work on the WS. You work on you.

There are oodles of threads here from BS about how Plan A seemed to be going nowhere. The WS was not changing, nothing was happening, how come….

Then, later, the FWS comes on MB and acknowledges they saw the changes in the BS. They stood a ways off in their darkness watching BS in the light, and they noticed.

Some WS start thinking, hey, there is the person I married, and they stepped into the light. Other WS wanted to approach, but were too afraid or too proud and it took Plan B to move them off the dime. And some WS are so far gone, so beyond the pale, they cannot face the changes required.

Your WH may be the latter. He has been a WS for a long time. He is a cake eating scoundrel right now. He is a confirmed serial philanderer. He even talks like one. He may remain one. It may be in his very soul by now. But you will never know for sure until you Plan A correctly.

With a proper Plan A you become such a wonderful person even if WH cannot meet your requirements for staying married to you there will be a line of people outside your door wanting to know you.

But you don’t plan A for years. It is too exhausting knowing the A(s) continue. And it trains an unrepentant WS into a fence sitting cake eater – which is very bad.

So do it by the book, ancast. You will see positive results. They will just not be in the place you originally thought they would be.

With prayers,

ed: The Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Ooops!and OUCH!
I thought that's what I meant by talking about fighting!
I had read SO much that day and finally decided to ditch the 'poor me' pit I was in. It's taken me a while to realise that H actually HAS become a serial WH.

THAT was something to absorb cos I really dont think that is him at all. I dont think for a second thats the way he wants to be.
I did an awful lot of thinking that day and realised that Yes, I have to change ME cos I've become pretty dragged down by events - so THAT'S what I meant - I need to make ME become that wonderful person that H will be SO eager to meet my needs - I thinkI saw the light - or A light - perhaps I just expressed it badly.

Plan A finally made sense - to ME. I now HAVE a plan, with deadlines and achievable goals/expectations at various points.
So thank you, Aphelion, for being so brutally honest with me. Yesterday when I re read all the posts to me I, too, realised that I had apparently ignored advice - I actually was quite embarrassed to see that - I was just so weighed down in my misery that I couldnt see/hear what was being said.
Anyway, thanks again. Ancast

To apl:

Truthfully, I 100% disagree with your statement above. With all due respect to ancast, I do NOT feel that it is "strong" to withstand obvious disrespect and life endagering behavior (STD exposure) for so long and continue in "this vein" as you say. That kind of continued doormat behavior should not ever be encouraged here. I know you mean well, and this is not a slam on you, but there is too often encouragement of unhealthy and dysfunctional behavior in the name of "support". This is one of those posts, albeit not with that intention.

There is nothing heroic or "courageous" about standing in the ring and getting pulverized for 15 rounds. Please understand the difference.

Lem

"It's taken me a while to realise that H actually HAS become a serial WH.

THAT was something to absorb cos I really dont think that is him at all. I dont think for a second thats the way he wants to be."

I believe the latter part of this is an erroneous assessment. You are closer to the truth about WH than you were at the start of this thread, but still not quite on target.

As a guy, I can place your WH in the serial adulterer category with 3 sigma assurance. It’s generally obvious to other men, ancast. We see these kinds of men all the time. They have a certain ‘tude about them and a way of speaking. I assure you he brags about his conquests on the road.

Further, his plethora of ONS for years while on travel is a dead giveaway. He may even be SA.

As far as him not wanting to be that way, well, who really does? But they do it anyway. It’s a form of addiction.

A number of important books have already been recommended to you, but let me throw one more in your lap. Read “The People of the Lie” by M. Scott Peck. It describes the author's attempt to identify psychological markers of evil in people. He uses several case studies.

One common trait Peck identifies is evil does not allow itself to think objectively about itself. One of the most important things a person who is committing evil does is go to great lengths to not think of themselves as bad. And they go to great lengths to justify and explain away and put their conduct off on others. They do not want to appear bad to others, so they lie profusly and they say what they do isn’t so important somehow.

Peck notes evil becomes a gray uniform consistency. It all starts to look and feel the same. Evil is featureless, muddy, self-similar and boring. This is exemplified in the commonality of serial adulterers I mention above. Serial adulterers all eventually act and sound pretty much alike. Like your WH.

OTOH, good people are differentiated. Saints are as unique and as individual as can be. This ought to be the goal of your Plan A, and the goal for the rest of your life, no matter what happens to your WH, ancast.


"I need to make ME become that wonderful person that H will be SO eager to meet my needs "

Not quite. Put a period after "wonderful person." Then replace "that" with "Perhaps". Then insert after "needs" "I will consider recovery of our M."

You do not need a serial cheat. You do not need a WS of any kind. You deserve a loving faithful husband. Period.

Right now, and for the past eight years or so your WS has not deserved you in the least.


With prayers,

Thanks. Hard truths. I HAVE read four of the books recommended to me on this site. I shall order 'The people of the lie' just as soon as I log off this site.

I doubt I'll have time to read it even if it arrives quickly - not before his next trip home. But I have thought through my plan and I'm pretty sure I can handle whatever I have to.

Its good to get a man's perspective on this.
Thanks again, Aphelion. I feel as if I'm now not only making moves but making them in the right direction.
Keep praying - for all of us that deserve better.

Plan A started. Don't know how I'm doing this - but H seems to be relaxed and pleasantly surprised. Haven't mentioned anything difficult. Just being relaxed, calm and as loving as possible. Screaming inside. Ancast

Advice, please, somebody.
As I wrote in my last post, things are kindof surreally pleasant. We've been out and about together and kept away frrom difficult topics of conversation - I'm getting more conversation out of him than I have for a long time - even with no sex at the moment - he is being kind and caring. BUT I have found a hidden bottle of expensive perfume which he obviously plans to take back to someone. Do I let him know Iknow? Ancast

hmmmmmm.......I think you thank him for the gift and use it!