Ancast, you plan A without an apology. Most people do. It would be nice to have one, but you may not get one for a while.

Read up on Plan A and go for it.

OK so I've read up on plan A. I have obviously got things a bit wrong but I AM still aching with the pain of all this. I'm not functioning at all well tho I try to be as normal as possible in front of our son. I realise that an apology may never happen. I've read and re-read so much my head is spinning.

H is going back on a trip on wednesday - i'm conscious of time running out and we seem to have gone backwards -we have had NO physical contact at all - in bed we are both clinging to our own edges of the bed trying hard not to come near each other. before I discovered that lipstick stained collar we were always wrapped right round each other all night!

I just CANT cope with the lack of physical contact. We're hardly speaking to each other - it's only to say basic things like who will go pick up our boy from his training session or whatever.

We went out with some good friends last night - my girlfriend knows but not her H - my H does not know that she knows - the eveningwas not much fun actually - I'm finding it SO hard to let go and get on with being nice. I kindof want him to go away and leave me in peace but then I think that he'll just find some other female for his sex while he's away and that'll make matters worse.

He has not responded to my letter but he has tucked it in his drawer next to our bed. I HAD wondered if he might just throw it away and think it was silly. I just want him to reach out and hug me - I so WANT to hug him but I'm kindof feeling that he thinks I'm not worth it.

I just left his presents on the table untouched. I suppose i have to accept them and tell him how thoughtful - but you know, I think I only got them cos he felt guilty! I really dont want his guilt presents - i want his presence!!! and i told him.

I'mstarting to think that this haul is just not worth it - i wonder if divorce, tho devastating, will be quicker to get through. And then i think how wonderful he was - people always tell me, always HAVE told me what a lovely lovely person he is. Why did i let this happen? and why cant i just let go of this pain and be nice?

This is jsut so much worse than when our first son died!

ancast, I'm so sorry you're in such a position. I tried the compartmentalizing bit as well but wasn't very successful. It's extrememly difficult to socialize and pretend everything's wonderful when you're ready to wring his neck.

I doubt it's any easier going through a D, especially at this stage. I think you would always wonder "what if...". At least if you hang in there and complete the plan, to the best of your ability, you will feel more settled. Once you feel you've done everything you can and he's not reciprocating I think it'll be more peaceful to let it go.
I doubt anything is easy but at least you wouldn't be second guessing your actions.

Chin up girl, we're all about building character right? lol!

thank you apl and moveforward for keep looking in on me - i feel so alone at the moment.

i really seem to have messed up - i know i'm supposed to be nice - he thinks i'm being deliberately mean but i just can't look further than how i'm feeling at the moment.

i HAVEread so much and when i'm sitting with the books in front of me things seem to make sense and then i do a brilliant LB
we talked a bit last night about my feelings but he just wants to move on and forget everything - i KNOW this is fairly usual behaviour but i'm finding it so difficult.plan A seems like somebody else's dream, so distant from this reality i'm going through. at one point though i DID feel that we had made a different kind of contact - when we got on to how we both had misinterpreted each other's actions but had never actually spoken about those things.

he goes away again in two days' time and i don't want us to part with this distance between us. i've tried holding him but he just ignores me.

do i just let things go this time and try harder next time he's back?

thanks for the help and for listening,
ancast

I feel for you.
My current client allows me to work from home full time. This has been a godsend for my marriage. My FWW quit her job after DDay so we've been home together working on recovery full time.
Unfortunately my project is nearing it's end and most likely I will be required to travel mon-thurs again for the next client. I am dreading this.

ancast, I don't know what to say, I wish I could null the pain for you. You are obviously a very strong person to be able to withstand all that you have to this point. I doubt there would be many with the courage to continue in this vien as you are.

Have faith in yourself that you will get through this regardless of the outcome. As for the physical closeness, if it's something you've discussed and he realizes that it's a priority for you I have to wonder why he's witholding it.

Is he still trying to put you in an insecure position so he feels more powerful? Does this distract him from the awful behavior he has been displaying?

I think the whole plan A thing means bite your tongue, sit on your hands, bang your head against the brick wall, but at all costs...BE NICE! You aren't likely to get much in the way of reciprocation out of this guy until he is actively involved in improving/repairing your M.

My H just returned from Vegas after 2.5wks. The night after he returned he asked if we could watch a movie together after the kids were in bed. OK. 12:30am his cell rings, he says hi, oh ah not much , nothing, ok yeah hi, nope not much ....Turns out his buddy from Vegas was out with his girlfriend and 2 other girls that they had been out with while H was there. He had been telling me about going out for great dinners, fun nights etc..but no mention of these girls.

Now, he swears nothing happened, can't figure out why they called him that night, has no explanation for why he didn't tell them he was watching a movie with me. He didn't tell me before because he wanted to "avoid the conflict on the phone".

We have MC this week and my topic is how he repeatedly displays his inability to put my feelings above his own if it means he has to sacrifice anything(time, comfort, money etc) Back to the drawing board!

not sure that I am so strong. I think we just have so much history together that I reckon on not wanting to let go without a fight. I actually DO think he adores me but just feels that it weakens him if he shows it! A couple of nights ago I had made a nice meal for the two of us and our son and H made a supposedly jokey comment which I took in a bad way (because I was feeling pent up I guess) and i just poured forth a whole load of venom - didnt say anything nasty or destructive but i DID say that comments the like of the one he made were not necessary or helpful to anybody.

I DID say it angrily. I pointed out that I had done a long days work and would appreciate some appreciation of the way I rally round supporting everyone and putting them before me.

Our boy was quite upset. H was also upset - in fact he went off upstairs to lay on the bed quietly. I honestly think that he didnt understand what had happened - he thought he'd made a joke and under other circumstances maybe i could have seen it that way.

When he came back down I could have sworn that he'd been crying! but he'll never let me see this - or very rarely. I saw him cry twice when our baby boy was dying. So that night in bed I decided to start a conversation about how things were/are. as i said in a previous post, we seemed to touch on things that we never reached before - even when things were good. He was amazed at the idea that some things i have done over the years were seen by me as acts of total and utter devotion to him. He told me about things that he felt were his acts of total devotion to me. so i guess we were starting to get on each others wave length.

but we left that conversation upset with each other and feeling frustrated - well at least i did. i told him that i really wanted him to just reach out to me and tell me that everything woould be ok. i told him how disapointed i was that he had not managed to speak to me or write. so i said i couldnt think of anything else to do but suppose he didnt care.
He said that he was upset at my 'ultimatum'. I issued no such thing - i simply said that we had to work around his apparent need to be with other women when he's away and my need to feel safe - i told him that he was free to endanger his own health if he wanted but he had no right to impose any risks on me. i guess he took that as an ultimatum - i didnt see it that way but i guess it was now i look back.

ok - so let him be upset. poor child - nasty lady spoiling his game!
anyway, last night i asked him outright for a hug cos i really needed one. and i got it. so there are glimpses of light but the longhaul will be a really long one until he changes his job - if indeed he can! i think i will be able to be nice onhis next visit cos i aim to see him change.

as for you, it's hard to know whether your H was having innocent outings while he was away - he MAY well have thought you'd be upset if he told you - it's so hard, isnt it, to believe anythingthey say? At least he wanted to spend some time with you. I'll be interested to hear what your MC says. And THATS a move in the right direction isnt it, that he goes to MC? My H thinks we can work this out by ourselves - I thinkhe's scared that lots more garbage will come out if we go to MC - we'll see. AsI said, a long haul! but, yes, real character building. keep posting - I feel less alone when i come onto this forum.
keep well, Ancast

should I be starting a new thread?
I dont think I relly understand how this forum works.
I'm feeling lonely and fed up - I'm basically at home alone with my DS for whom I care and do all the running around - he is GORGEOUS and a very sensitive, caring son - my DD is away studying and calls home when she needs advice/help/cash. she, too, is gorgeous - the sort of honest to goodness gal you'd like your son to meet and marry. She doesnt know any details but she knows her dad has been making her mom unhappy and she thinks her mom should find a new life and go and do what ever it is that might make her happy.
Trouble is - mom wants dad to stay at home and be faithful.
Tonight my 14 year old boy was so so so sad- he asks me why I'm so sad.
Its affecting his relationships in all aspects of his life. I SO want to tell him that his dad is being mean. I SO want to explain my own sadness.
I'm at a loss.
I thought recently thati could just letgo and start again when my H comes back next time - but i'm STILL crying uncontrollably at odd times. If it wernt for my boy I'd just WALK. I HATE MY LIFE!
I feel SO alone when no-one replies to me. I've spent SO long reading so many other peoples posts and I'm so mixed up - I think I really love my H - or am I just scared of the unknown? we've been together so long - but actually the companionship has been missing for so long. I only want to feel cared for. He says he does but boy - he doesnt show it!
Ancast

Ancast - please re-read my post to you from 4/25, as well as some of the earlier ones. You do not seem to have any sort of plan at all but are just floundering helplessly. That's not going to accomplish a thing except to give WH free rein to keep walking all over you.

Will your WH discuss any of the MB concepts with you, like Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA)?

Have you thought about doing a short Plan A followed by a pitch-dark Plan B? That's usually what it takes to get through to a WH like him.
Mulan

Ancast, I'm so sorry you're still not receiving what you need from H. The passive aggressive "jokes" are obviously your rage seeping out. You have every right to be very angry with him.

I think Mulan hit the nail on the head, you need a plan. It sounds like you're doing everything right and just waiting for him to change his behavior. News flash- it won't happen!

By continually waiting for him to step up to the plate you're building up resentment towards him because of your situation. I read something recently "resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die".
Don't put yourself in this situation.

If H won't see MC maybe you can explore your fear of not having him in your life on your own. Is this something you feel comfortable discussing with IC?

I think I face some very similar fears, can I do it all by myself, what about the kids, finances, retirement etc. I even get p**sed when I think about how much I've done for him and how he will continue to live a lavish life and I will be living on about 25% of what we have now, not to mention all the perks he will continue to enjoy while I go into debt just to make ends meet.

I'm continuing to put one foot infront of the other and hope I'm moving in the right direction.

Keep it up, make it more about you, less about him.

Thank you Mulan and apl.
You see, I just don't see how I CAN do a Plan A when he comes home for a week and then goes on business again for three weeks. The answer is that he should change jobs - which he's tried. He isnt happy doing the job he does but he feels he has to in order to financially support his family.
He is basically a good person. I think he had that fling all those years ago (incidentally when he wasnt travelling on business), got caught but then saw an opportunity while out of the country and thought 'Why not?'
He isn't ALL horrible - he just wants to forget and carry on as if nothing bad has happened. I, of course want to keep talking.
He says that even if everything were REALLY perfect and rosy with me it still wouldnt 'affair proof' our M because what he does while away ('IF he does it' is only to get immediate comfort and has nothing to do with me)
This presumably is his denial - he's doing nothing wrong.But he has shown great distress at seeing me break down.
I need to exorcise these thoughts that keep invading my mind. I'm trying NLP techniques. I've tried just accepting that this is where we are and altho its not where we were meant to be I just have to get on with it.
I keep thinking I can go on for three more years until my boy is in college and then I start my own life. Would MC work on a monthly basis?
He HAS made big improvements like contacting on a pretty well daily basis ( he's at the opposite end of the world - literally). He brings me nice presents.
He HAS listened to me and been pretty honest but I did some snooping and found a photo of a pretty young thing with a loving message on the back. I don't want him to know how I know about that because that wasnt part of his confession. He HAS to ditch that photo - but I cant tell him.
I was doing ok until i snooped. THIS is the problem.

So, yes, I'm floundering. And in the meantime my boy is suffering. I'm going to go and read some more and try to get myself sorted before next weekend.
Thank you for all the advice. I'll go back and re read that post, Mulan.

Mulan,
I just re read your 04/25 post. Thank you, clear steps to follow. I must write down my plan.
I must stick to it. I think I shouls keep it handy so I can keep referring to it and remind myself that I am 'on a mission' to try to improve/save my M.

Plan B would hardly hit home because he's away so much anyway - but let's not go there just yet.

The other point is that he has never threatened ME with divorce - I was expressing a fear of mine. I'M the one who has suggested that if he feels so distant from me and can find what he wants elsewhere then maybe that option would solve alot of our problems. He said divorce was not what he wanted.
But then I think 'of course you dont want to divorce someone who is always there 'keeping house' and caring for the kids. Nice life!'

Back to the books! They do make alot of sense but I need alot of reminding.
thanks again

***because what he does while away ('IF he does it' is only to get immediate comfort and has nothing to do with me)***

This, IMO, is the heart of your problem. Unless and until he has a fundamental shift in understanding here, he will never change.

My WH has told me this, too - very ANGRILY insisted that what he does at work should not affect me and I need to just STOP letting it affect me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is it with these people???

Actually, it's called compartmentalization. He puts his work life in one box and his home life in another box, and in his mind the two never overlap in any way. You are in the box marked "home," so he cannot fathom why what happens at work has anything at all to do with you.

This is a terribly, terribly cold-blooded way to treat another human being - putting them in a box like a pencil and fully expecting them to just stay in that box until needed - but many, many people do this and IMO the majority of them are men. Men seem to be even better at compartmentalizing than women are.

Unless and until it dawns on your husband that your life -- and your marriage - does not stop just because he's at work, he will not ever change. He will continue to see you as a thing rather than a person - just something to be taken out and used when he needs it, and then put back in the box when he's done.

My husband does exactly the same thing and is furious that I won't go along with this. After all, it's a GREAT arrangment for HIM!

Maybe somebody else has a cure for this. Plan B or maybe Plan D are the only ones I know of.

Good luck to you.
Mulan

Heh..

Well..if it's a box I daresay the lid opens in one direction only.

Is he OK then with you having men in his home and in his bed while he is in his "work" box?

I mean..the two NEVER overlap afterall. [snerk]

Or rather..are you folded up and put away until he comes back and is ready to plug you in and have "home" box time?

So, Mulan, what do YOU do about it? Are you divorced?
I've been reading and working on my feelings all day. I'm not usually able to spend so much time like this but I've been home alone all day so decided to get something concrete worked out.
I've read lots and lots of old posts - found a good one from Lora I think, about how she now feels she wasted four years obsessing about her H's A - and now she's seriously ill and that puts things into perspective. I recognised that I am starting to obsess - not good!

I'm going to get this guy of mine to open up come what may. And he DOES when I handle things well. I'm going to get HIM to beg ME to talk.

I'm going to get this guy of mine to really appreciate the deal he's got with me. And when he understands THAT he'll have to cope with the idea that deals can be broken if BOTH sides aren't happy.

Fighting talk? You bet!
I now have a plan! Thanks everyone.
I'll be back! Ancast

ancast,

I read your thread during lunch. I have two take-aways.

First, you don’t seem very intent on getting advice. Right now you seem to need support and understanding the most. There is very good actionable advice in here. But you appear to generally ignore it. You do not ignore the, “You poor dear, I know what you are feeling,” posts, however.

Now, this is fine. You need this too. But you will have to cobble a plan together sooner than later, and act on it resolutely.

Second, I think you need to study up on Plan A. The plan you want is a plan to save you, and your M can come along for the ride. The plan you want is Plan A.

You wrote: “You see, I just don't see how I CAN do a Plan A when he comes home for a week and then goes on business again for three weeks. The answer is that he should change jobs –“

Plan A is as much about you as it is the WS. In fact, Plan A is really mostly about you. Plan A is where you start to become the person you want most to be in life. If it is also the person WS once loved and wanted to marry, so much the better.

Plan A is not about you changing the WS. Only they can do that for themselves. As a negotiation to end the A, Plan A is dangling the advantages of your M, and you, in front of the WS. It is about remaking you into an all-around better person. Plan A is where you change your behaviors, you demonstrate that you can meet ENs, you eliminate DJs and LBs, and you establish your immovable boundaries. You don’t work on the WS. You work on you.

There are oodles of threads here from BS about how Plan A seemed to be going nowhere. The WS was not changing, nothing was happening, how come….

Then, later, the FWS comes on MB and acknowledges they saw the changes in the BS. They stood a ways off in their darkness watching BS in the light, and they noticed.

Some WS start thinking, hey, there is the person I married, and they stepped into the light. Other WS wanted to approach, but were too afraid or too proud and it took Plan B to move them off the dime. And some WS are so far gone, so beyond the pale, they cannot face the changes required.

Your WH may be the latter. He has been a WS for a long time. He is a cake eating scoundrel right now. He is a confirmed serial philanderer. He even talks like one. He may remain one. It may be in his very soul by now. But you will never know for sure until you Plan A correctly.

With a proper Plan A you become such a wonderful person even if WH cannot meet your requirements for staying married to you there will be a line of people outside your door wanting to know you.

But you don’t plan A for years. It is too exhausting knowing the A(s) continue. And it trains an unrepentant WS into a fence sitting cake eater – which is very bad.

So do it by the book, ancast. You will see positive results. They will just not be in the place you originally thought they would be.

With prayers,

ed: The Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Ooops!and OUCH!
I thought that's what I meant by talking about fighting!
I had read SO much that day and finally decided to ditch the 'poor me' pit I was in. It's taken me a while to realise that H actually HAS become a serial WH.

THAT was something to absorb cos I really dont think that is him at all. I dont think for a second thats the way he wants to be.
I did an awful lot of thinking that day and realised that Yes, I have to change ME cos I've become pretty dragged down by events - so THAT'S what I meant - I need to make ME become that wonderful person that H will be SO eager to meet my needs - I thinkI saw the light - or A light - perhaps I just expressed it badly.

Plan A finally made sense - to ME. I now HAVE a plan, with deadlines and achievable goals/expectations at various points.
So thank you, Aphelion, for being so brutally honest with me. Yesterday when I re read all the posts to me I, too, realised that I had apparently ignored advice - I actually was quite embarrassed to see that - I was just so weighed down in my misery that I couldnt see/hear what was being said.
Anyway, thanks again. Ancast

To apl:

Truthfully, I 100% disagree with your statement above. With all due respect to ancast, I do NOT feel that it is "strong" to withstand obvious disrespect and life endagering behavior (STD exposure) for so long and continue in "this vein" as you say. That kind of continued doormat behavior should not ever be encouraged here. I know you mean well, and this is not a slam on you, but there is too often encouragement of unhealthy and dysfunctional behavior in the name of "support". This is one of those posts, albeit not with that intention.

There is nothing heroic or "courageous" about standing in the ring and getting pulverized for 15 rounds. Please understand the difference.

Lem

"It's taken me a while to realise that H actually HAS become a serial WH.

THAT was something to absorb cos I really dont think that is him at all. I dont think for a second thats the way he wants to be."

I believe the latter part of this is an erroneous assessment. You are closer to the truth about WH than you were at the start of this thread, but still not quite on target.

As a guy, I can place your WH in the serial adulterer category with 3 sigma assurance. It’s generally obvious to other men, ancast. We see these kinds of men all the time. They have a certain ‘tude about them and a way of speaking. I assure you he brags about his conquests on the road.

Further, his plethora of ONS for years while on travel is a dead giveaway. He may even be SA.

As far as him not wanting to be that way, well, who really does? But they do it anyway. It’s a form of addiction.

A number of important books have already been recommended to you, but let me throw one more in your lap. Read “The People of the Lie” by M. Scott Peck. It describes the author's attempt to identify psychological markers of evil in people. He uses several case studies.

One common trait Peck identifies is evil does not allow itself to think objectively about itself. One of the most important things a person who is committing evil does is go to great lengths to not think of themselves as bad. And they go to great lengths to justify and explain away and put their conduct off on others. They do not want to appear bad to others, so they lie profusly and they say what they do isn’t so important somehow.

Peck notes evil becomes a gray uniform consistency. It all starts to look and feel the same. Evil is featureless, muddy, self-similar and boring. This is exemplified in the commonality of serial adulterers I mention above. Serial adulterers all eventually act and sound pretty much alike. Like your WH.

OTOH, good people are differentiated. Saints are as unique and as individual as can be. This ought to be the goal of your Plan A, and the goal for the rest of your life, no matter what happens to your WH, ancast.


"I need to make ME become that wonderful person that H will be SO eager to meet my needs "

Not quite. Put a period after "wonderful person." Then replace "that" with "Perhaps". Then insert after "needs" "I will consider recovery of our M."

You do not need a serial cheat. You do not need a WS of any kind. You deserve a loving faithful husband. Period.

Right now, and for the past eight years or so your WS has not deserved you in the least.


With prayers,

Thanks. Hard truths. I HAVE read four of the books recommended to me on this site. I shall order 'The people of the lie' just as soon as I log off this site.

I doubt I'll have time to read it even if it arrives quickly - not before his next trip home. But I have thought through my plan and I'm pretty sure I can handle whatever I have to.

Its good to get a man's perspective on this.
Thanks again, Aphelion. I feel as if I'm now not only making moves but making them in the right direction.
Keep praying - for all of us that deserve better.