Ok, This is the latest IM exchange with my former WW. I need honest opinions, even if you feel I'm humbling myself too much.

Here's the exchange:

Kristy says:
u called
ray says:
yes. I left messages asking to have the kids call.
ray says:
Is Amanda still up?
Kristy says:
she went to bed early because she didn't nap today
ray says:
Do you have your vonage setup yet? It only takes a few minutes and it would allow me to call them during the day.
ray says:
I really would like it if she called me everyday when I don't see her. If I don't get to see them, please let me talk to them.
ray says:
Please get your vonage setup. It really only takes a few minutes. I really miss being able to talk to her during the day.
Kristy says:
i've been pretty busy ray, i will get it set up soon
ray says:
You had this whole past weekend.
ray says:
It only takes a few minutes.
Kristy says:
ray don't hassle me about how quickly I get MY phone set up
ray says:
When it keeps me from talking to the kids, yes, it bothers me.
ray says:
You ignore my calls all the time.
ray says:
I'm at the mercy of your cell phone and when you choose to take my calls.
ray says:
You ignore my calls 90% of the time. I called very early tonight asking you to make sure she called before bed.
ray says:
It was around 5:45PM
ray says:
I didn't have this problem when they were at your parents and it means a lot to me when I can't talk to them every day. I would extend this courtesy to you.
Kristy says:
ray, i have a life going on here too, she may not call you EVERY day, i can't promise that...sometimes days may go by where it doesn't happen each and every day
Kristy says:
now...
ray says:
Yes, but you've been putting off setting up your phone when it only takes a few minutes to get it done.
ray says:
It would allow me to call them during the day so I at least have the chance to talk to them at least once during the day.
Kristy says:
if you want to see the kids this weekend that is fine, since you won't be here next weekend, but we need to work out as far as visitation being every other weekend, not every weekend
ray says:
If that is what you want to do, then I should be allowed to see them during the weeks when I won't have them on the weekend.
ray says:
This would allow me to see them every week and it is a compromise form what you want.
ray says:
I don't want it to be where I only see them every other weekend.
ray says:
Have you considered the option of all of us getting together once a week?
ray says:
It's not like we're dating anyone and it would allow the kids to see us together every so often.
Kristy says:
we need to work on dividing holidays, but from what i've found out, other than that, a typical suggested schedule for their age as far as daily-wise is every other weekend and one evening (after work until bringing them home for bed) a week
ray says:
We could set it up where we have dinner at my place one week, yours the next.
Kristy says:
no, their time with you will be with you, not with me there too
ray says:
why is that a problem. We're their parents and the time will come when we will do things together such as sports, plays, etc.
ray says:
They could see their parents in a dinner setting once a week.
ray says:
Like I said, it's not like either one of us is dating anyone for it to be a problem.
Kristy says:
ray, i don't want to have dinner with you once a week
ray says:
It would be good for them, too.
ray says:
It's not with me, it's with them
Kristy says:
and you
ray says:
so?
Kristy says:
i don't want that ray....
ray says:
do you hate me that much?
Kristy says:
oh will you stop
Kristy says:
god ray
ray says:
so why can't we put aside our problems, once a week, and have dinner as a family?
Kristy says:
because we aren't THAT kind of family now
Kristy says:
we are both parents to the kids, but not together parenting
ray says:
Kristy, you're not my enemy. We're parents of these children and like it or not, we do have to parent them together.
Kristy says:
your time with your kids needs to be focused on them, not having me there too
ray says:
We will have to make decisions regarding their school, care, etc.
ray says:
Wouldn't that allow us to build a friendship? Do it for them?
ray says:
It is not good for the kids to have a situation where the parents can't stand each other and are hostile around each other. Trust me, it sucks.
ray says:
To this day it is nice to have my parents be together, even though they aren't "together"
ray says:
For them it is something we should work towards.
ray says:
So what happened to the idea of letting me have them at least one night on the weekends?
ray says:
Are you getting me a formal agreement?
Kristy says:
I got tired of trying to be nice and still dealing with how nasty you could be, it wasn't appreciated when I did things like that for you, you started getting nasty about how much and when you wanted to see them and started getting nasty with me after a couple nights ago when you were crying and i said i didn't want to be with you and there wasn't a chance, then the claws really came out, tired of
Kristy says:
trying to be nice and getting that from you still
ray says:
Kristy, letting me see the kids isn't being "nice". I have asked you to let me see them at least once or twice during the week for dinner or to at least for a few minutes a day on my way home from work. You were saying no to that.
ray says:
And it really hurts when I can't even call them.
ray says:
So, yes, I was getting upset about that.
Kristy says:
yes ray, because you have tried to make yourself TOO much of a presence here and don't understand that i don't want to have to deal with you EVERY day now
ray says:
I have continued to reach out to you to let you know that we can do things with the kids together once in a while. I've invited you to come with us to feed the ducks, I've sent you videos of their time here.
ray says:
No, I don't want to deal with YOU every day. I want to deal with them. At a minimum a phone call.
ray says:
I saw them more and dealt with them more when you were 40 minutes away.
ray says:
I still think it is important for us to do things together in front of them once in a while. That's why I suggested having dinner at each other's houses once a week.
ray says:
If you don't want to deal with me, then just make sure Amanda calls me before bed every night.
Kristy says:
ray that is because we were not working and i had plenty of time with them, i value my alone time with them too you know, and i don't get much of it while working...and yes, you have to deal with me every time you deal with them as far as coming over, and i don't want that happening all the time, you are a DAILY presence i deal with, even through my myspace email
Kristy says:
i can't promise every night ray
ray says:
I still don't understand why you have made me into such an enemy. When you've been friendly to me, I've been friendly back. Things were fine when I dropped them off and sat down and had a donut with you.
ray says:
Well, as much as possible.
ray says:
I send you messages on myspace because I know you'll get the messages that way. And, yes, I felt a need to respond to you saying I was boring when I had all these things planned for us if we started seeing each other again.
Kristy says:
right now i just want our interaction to be to exchange the kids and arrangements with them and that be it
Kristy says:
and why do you feel the need to write me there so much
ray says:
Because that's the only way you get messages.
ray says:
When I've written you lately it was about my lawyer, about me being "boring", and to ask if I would get the kids this weekend.
Kristy says:
and why call me only a couple days ago once again dealing with things on a more personal level, asking about hope for us, crying over stuff, when i've asked you to stop and told you all that stuff before
ray says:
As the kids get older and they get into school, we're going to have to interact with them about their school, teachers, vaccines, etc.
ray says:
Because I wanted to see if there was any part of you that felt that we should try to save our family. Because I come home every day to an empty house and miss the sounds of my kids. Because I miss the best friend I had in my life for 7 years.
ray says:
Because I feel you will not find what you're looking for online.
ray says:
Because no man will be better for these kids than me.
ray says:
Because I am and was willing to forgive and put the past behind and try to make it work to give our kids a two parent home.
Kristy says:
who says i'm looking online...yes, i meet people and have met people from online, but have made mostly friends, and enjoyed going out on some dates, but online is not the only place i meet people
ray says:
Kristy, let's be realistic. If some guy came along that you were really attracted to, you would try to have something with him. Otherwise, you wouldn't say you're on there for serious relationships and you wouldn't leave comments to guys such as "I don't normally leave 'you're hot
ray says:
' comments, but nice, very, very nice"
ray says:
Or, "I wouldn't kick you out of the bed"
ray says:
etc
ray says:
Treat me like an angel and I'll be your devil
ray says:
not exactly comments for "friends".
Kristy says:
ray there is nothing wrong with leaving compliments, flirtatious remarks, whatever, nothing wrong with that...
ray says:
For me, it's about the kids. They would be best off in a two parent home and I was willing to work on our problems.
Kristy says:
what is wrong is you checking up on all my friend's webpages to check out all my activity, who i'm talking to, what i'm saying
ray says:
I was willing to address the issues you had problems with and to work.
Kristy says:
and yes, one of the things listed i am open for is a serious relationship, not looking for it, but one day it may happen down the road, so yes, that option is there, nothing wrong with it
ray says:
kristy, you're not some woman I just met 6 months ago. You were my wife, the mother of my kids. Yes, I was going to go through withdrawl from losing you. That meant curiosity about what you were doing and if you were going to go out with someone.
ray says:
You put that on there right after our divorce. Yet told me there was hope. It contradicted what you were telling me and made me feel like crap.
ray says:
I'm sorry, Kristy, but I feel that our family and what we had is infinitely better than trying to get someone else to accept and put up with our kids.
Kristy says:
i never told you to sit around and wait since there was hope, i said one day there very well could be a chance in the future, but you have said and done a lot since then that has changed my opinion on things
ray says:
To give them a home where the two people that loved them most in the world worked together to work out their problems and have a loving marriage.
ray says:
Yet you haven't done one single thing since our divorce to show me an ounce of hope. Not a coffee, not a date. Nothing. Of course this would upset me. I cry every single day over losing our family.
ray says:
How can I show niceness, compassion, love, if I'm not given the chance to?
ray says:
Yet I'm supposed to put aside what I feel as I watch you go out with other men, make out with them in parking lots, and I'm sure by now other things have happened. This is very upsetting to someone that loved you very much and wanted to spend the rest of his life with you and be a good father.
ray says:
Of course there's going to be a reaction to that. Belive me, I wish I could have flipped a switch and turned off my feelings and not felt anything as you did these things.
Kristy says:
ray, i kissed a guy in the parking lot before leaving...not exactly making out
Kristy says:
which you wouldn't have even seen if you wouldn't have been watching me from inside the door!
ray says:
You talk about my actions but have never addressed yours. You betrayed me in a horrible and painful way, yet I was willing to set that aside to save our marriage.
ray says:
Kristy, you knew that the mall was one of the only places I could take the kids when I didn't have a place. Part of me thinks you purposely showed up there that day, considering that's where I always took the kids.
ray says:
Again, you're not some woman I just met. Of course I'd be curious.
ray says:
You could have just as easily suggested to him that you guys go somewhere else considering I was there with the kids.
ray says:
Not exactly nice to rub my face in it.
ray says:
So I don't understand, how exactly was there hope if we never got together and did things to rebuild our relationship, even to the point of friendship.
ray says:
?
ray says:
Not even a coffee. A baby step.
Kristy says:
ray, grow up, i didn't go there knowing you would be there that day, if anything i avoid where you will be, and once i saw you there, we did leave...and it's not rubbing your face in it when you are the one who followed over to the door and watched me in the parking lot to see what i was doing, i was out there like 5-10 min before we even kissed goodbye that day and you stood there and watched,
Kristy says:
that isnt my fault you saw
ray says:
Hard to maintain hope when you see your ex w making out with other men and leaving them suggestive comments and wishing them Happy Father's day when I barely get a 'hi'.
Kristy says:
and hope was blown to pieces with things you said and did afterward, sides of you i saw that totally turned every feeling i ever had of possibility into nothing
ray says:
That hurt a lot.
ray says:
Those things hurt, yet you can't even acknowledge what kind of pain you've caused me.
Kristy says:
ray we are divorced!!! i don't need to go to coffee with you, i don't need to have conversations and dates with you, i don't need to censor myself with what i say to other men, and i shouldn't have to worry my ex is watching me when i'm out with someone
ray says:
Then why did you tell me to have hope?
ray says:
!
ray says:
Have faith.
ray says:
be patient and lets heal
ray says:
your words
Kristy says:
there used to be that at one point but a lot has happened, sorry you don't see that...
Kristy says:
and i made it very clear it would not be right away if ever
ray says:
What is this "a lot"? The myspace crap?
Kristy says:
i'm not going back over everything with you again ray
ray says:
considering what I tried to do for you on Mother's Day, the invitations to be friends, to talk, hardly "a lot" of bad things have happened.
ray says:
Things could have been much worse.
Kristy says:
ray that is what saddens me more than anything, you just don't seem to recognize the amount of trouble you have caused
ray says:
Hard to not feel anger and betrayal and confusion when the person you loved deeply and cared for is so callous.
ray says:
So what can I do other than apologize? I tried to mend your friendships, they reached out to you and you stood them up! I've opened my house to you to come see the kids when I have them. I have bought you cards, flowers. Made gestures.
ray says:
What else can I say other than I'm sorry. That we have a chance to put all this madness behind us before it's too late.
ray says:
I have reached out to you over and over again.
Kristy says:
ray that's the thing, you haven't left me alone...ever!
ray says:
My gestures have been met with apathy, anger, and venom.
ray says:
Kristy, there will always be a level of interaction between us because of the kids.
Kristy says:
i know that ray, but only a minimum, what is needed for arrangements, but you don't settle for just that
ray says:
I've forgiven your infidelity, I payed you CS when I was unemployed, I didn't make a big deal of you not honoring our divorce agreement when you pocketed that money
ray says:
You sold our van that the bank still has the lien to
ray says:
and I'm stuck with the payments
ray says:
I've looked past all of that and have wished for us to put all this behind us for our kids.
ray says:
That's what has bothered me the most. You never gave me a fair chance. Had you not been unfaithful, we would still be together because you would have seen for yourself the man that I became while deployed and the things I realized when I felt I was going to die.
ray says:
I cuttoff my mother on my own. I pledged to myself to be a better husband and father when I came back.
ray says:
I wanted to love you deeper than you had ever been loved.
Kristy says:
ray, whether i made out with that guy or not, we would not have been together, you came home and i was done already and told you i wanted out
ray says:
And when we got here I REALLY wanted to plan romantic things now that we were in an environment where we could do such things.
ray says:
Kristy, you did A LOT more than make out.
ray says:
To my knowledge he's the only one, but I suspect there were others. Maybe not to the extent of him, but I'm sure you at least kissed some of the others.
Kristy says:
whatever ray, i'm not going to engage you on this topic once more
ray says:
Kristy, you saw how devastated I was before I knew of your infidelity, and you were willing to give me a chance.
Kristy says:
no ray i wasn't
ray says:
You told me you would give me that chance and then I found out about the cheating.
Kristy says:
i couldn't have made it work anymore
ray says:
Why didn't you consider counseling? Something, anything to save our marriage? None of the problems were permanent or unsolvable, especially when I was so willing to address them.
Kristy says:
u came home and i was already ready to leave, you know that, and no, didn't like to see you crashing down from it all and wanted to be able to give you a chance, but knew it wouldn't work
Kristy says:
in your eyes ray
ray says:
Then why did you tell me otherwise?
ray says:
Were you just biding your time to set things up leagally?
ray says:
Why did we go out every Friday?
ray says:
Why did you show me affection when I did things as you wanted me to?
Kristy says:
i was hoping to maintain a good friendship with us ray
ray says:
Why not counseling?
Kristy says:
and i was affectionate when you were a nice person to be around, because while i didn't want to be married to you, i still cared
ray says:
What baffles me is how I could read letters telling me how good a father and husband I was and how deeply you loved me, then have you switch those feelings off?
ray says:
You told me you were so optimistic you were leaving me the Christmas decorations.
ray says:
Were those just things that you felt I wanted to hear? Where did the love, the vows, the committment go? Does having a loving father for your kids not mean anything to you?
ray says:
Giving them an intact home?
Kristy says:
ray don't try to make me feel guilty once again
ray says:
I told you years ago that I was willing to work through anything and work hard to save things.
ray says:
Even infidelity. I told you that long ago before anything bad happened between us.
ray says:
It'
ray says:
It's not guilt. It's trying to make sense of a loss when less than a year ago you and I were in England having a great time riding coasters and going on dates.
ray says:
Those last months in England were the happiest I remember in our marriage.
ray says:
The retreat, the fourth of july, the anticipation of coming back to the states.
ray says:
shopping in nice malls again.
ray says:
settling into our nice new house.
ray says:
These were the things I remember very happily. That's why it's been so hard to let go. It would have been so different if you and I had years of problems and I could see this coming.
ray says:
What I remember is a couple that stuck together through terrible times and thought they were stronger because of it.
ray says:
And now, our kids will grow up with separate homes, shuttling back and forth. Wondering if one parent or the other and hoping that both will go to their events.
ray says:
Just like you told me you were a good wife to me, I was a good husband to you. Not perfect, but I tried my damndest to balance you, work, and the kids.
ray says:
Do these things mean nothing? What are you hoping to find? Think these myspace guys will give it to you?
ray says:
I could at least understand if you were in love with someone else and wanted to try things out with him, but there isn't even that.
ray says:
You have chosen this path. To you, the grass is greener on the other side. You had a man that was loyal, committed, and willing to work with you. I wanted to do whatever it took to make you happy.
ray says:
There are consequences to this choice. Our kids are going to suffer because of it.
ray says:
You don't see it, but they will.
ray says:
For them, I would be willing to do anything, forgive anything, and work my butt off to give them a happy home. It is the committment I made when I took my vows.
ray says:
Have you found my class ring?
ray says:
Are you drafting an agreement with a lawyer?
ray says:
Are you going to answer the last two questions?
ray says:
I need to know about my class ring and about the visitation agreement.
ray says:
I have my reunion coming up.
ray says:
I would like to be able to wear my ring.
ray says:
well?
ray says:
I'm guessing you're on the phone
ray says:
Kristy, I really want an answer to the last two questions. I want to know if you are going to give me my ring, and if you're going to draft a legal visitation arangement.

try reading this

Here's the exchange:



Kristy says:
u called

ray says:
yes. I left messages asking to have the kids call.
Is Amanda still up?


Kristy says:
she went to bed early because she didn't nap today

ray says:
Do you have your vonage setup yet? It only takes a few minutes and it would allow me to call them during the day.
I really would like it if she called me everyday when I don't see her. If I don't get to see them, please let me talk to them.
Please get your vonage setup. It really only takes a few minutes. I really miss being able to talk to her during the day.

Kristy says:
i've been pretty busy ray, i will get it set up soon
‏ay says:
You had this whole past weekend.
It only takes a few minutes.

Kristy says:
ray don't hassle me about how quickly I get MY phone set up
‏ay says:
When it keeps me from talking to the kids, yes, it bothers me.
You ignore my calls all the time.
I'm at the mercy of your cell phone and when you choose to take my calls.
You ignore my calls 90% of the time. I called very early tonight asking you to make sure she called before bed.
It was around 5:45PM
I didn't have this problem when they were at your parents and it means a lot to me when I can't talk to them every day. I would extend this courtesy to you.

Kristy says:
ray, i have a life going on here too, she may not call you EVERY day, i can't promise that...sometimes days may go by where it doesn't happen each and every day

Kristy says:
now...

ray says:
Yes, but you've been putting off setting up your phone when it only takes a few minutes to get it done.
It would allow me to call them during the day so I at least have the chance to talk to them at least once during the day.

Kristy says:
if you want to see the kids this weekend that is fine, since you won't be here next weekend, but we need to work out as far as visitation being every other weekend, not every weekend


ray says:
If that is what you want to do, then I should be allowed to see them during the weeks when I won't have them on the weekend.
This would allow me to see them every week and it is a compromise form what you want.
I don't want it to be where I only see them every other weekend.
Have you considered the option of all of us getting together once a week?
It's not like we're dating anyone and it would allow the kids to see us together every so often.

Kristy says:
we need to work on dividing holidays, but from what i've found out, other than that, a typical suggested schedule for their age as far as daily-wise is every other weekend and one evening (after work until bringing them home for bed) a week


ray says:
We could set it up where we have dinner at my place one week, yours the next.

Kristy says:
no, their time with you will be with you, not with me there too

ray says:
why is that a problem. We're their parents and the time will come when we will do things together such as sports, plays, etc.
They could see their parents in a dinner setting once a week.
Like I said, it's not like either one of us is dating anyone for it to be a problem.

Kristy says:
ray, i don't want to have dinner with you once a week

ray says:
It would be good for them, too.
It's not with me, it's with them

Kristy says:
and you

ray says:
so?

Kristy says:
i don't want that ray....

ray says:
do you hate me that much?

Kristy says:
oh will you stop

Kristy says:
god ray
so why can't we put aside our problems, once a week, and have dinner as a family?

Kristy says:
because we aren't THAT kind of family now

Kristy says:
we are both parents to the kids, but not together parenting

ray says:
Kristy, you're not my enemy. We're parents of these children and like it or not, we do have to parent them together.

Kristy says:
your time with your kids needs to be focused on them, not having me there too

ray says:
We will have to make decisions regarding their school, care, etc.
Wouldn't that allow us to build a friendship? Do it for them?
It is not good for the kids to have a situation where the parents can't stand each other and are hostile around each other. Trust me, it sucks.
To this day it is nice to have my parents be together, even though they aren't "together"
For them it is something we should work towards.
So what happened to the idea of letting me have them at least one night on the weekends?
Are you getting me a formal agreement?

Kristy says:
I got tired of trying to be nice and still dealing with how nasty you could be, it wasn't appreciated when I did things like that for you, you started getting nasty about how much and when you wanted to see them and started getting nasty with me after a couple nights ago when you were crying and i said i didn't want to be with you and there wasn't a chance, then the claws really came out, tired of

Kristy says:
trying to be nice and getting that from you still

ray says:
Kristy, letting me see the kids isn't being "nice". I have asked you to let me see them at least once or twice during the week for dinner or to at least for a few minutes a day on my way home from work. You were saying no to that.
And it really hurts when I can't even call them.
So, yes, I was getting upset about that.

Kristy says:
yes ray, because you have tried to make yourself TOO much of a presence here and don't understand that i don't want to have to deal with you EVERY day now

ray says:
I have continued to reach out to you to let you know that we can do things with the kids together once in a while. I've invited you to come with us to feed the ducks, I've sent you videos of their time here.
No, I don't want to deal with YOU every day. I want to deal with them. At a minimum a phone call.
I saw them more and dealt with them more when you were 40 minutes away.
I still think it is important for us to do things together in front of them once in a while. That's why I suggested having dinner at each other's houses once a week.
If you don't want to deal with me, then just make sure Amanda calls me before bed every night.

Kristy says:
ray that is because we were not working and i had plenty of time with them, i value my alone time with them too you know, and i don't get much of it while working...and yes, you have to deal with me every time you deal with them as far as coming over, and i don't want that happening all the time, you are a DAILY presence i deal with, even through my myspace email

Kristy says:
i can't promise every night ray

ray says:
I still don't understand why you have made me into such an enemy. When you've been friendly to me, I've been friendly back. Things were fine when I dropped them off and sat down and had a donut with you.
Well, as much as possible.
I send you messages on myspace because I know you'll get the messages that way. And, yes, I felt a need to respond to you saying I was boring when I had all these things planned for us if we started seeing each other again.

Kristy says:
right now i just want our interaction to be to exchange the kids and arrangements with them and that be it

Kristy says:
and why do you feel the need to write me there so much

ray says:
Because that's the only way you get messages.
When I've written you lately it was about my lawyer, about me being "boring", and to ask if I would get the kids this weekend.

Kristy says:
and why call me only a couple days ago once again dealing with things on a more personal level, asking about hope for us, crying over stuff, when i've asked you to stop and told you all that stuff before

ray says:
As the kids get older and they get into school, we're going to have to interact with them about their school, teachers, vaccines, etc.
Because I wanted to see if there was any part of you that felt that we should try to save our family. Because I come home every day to an empty house and miss the sounds of my kids. Because I miss the best friend I had in my life for 7 years.

ray says:
Because I feel you will not find what you're looking for online.
Because no man will be better for these kids than me.
Because I am and was willing to forgive and put the past behind and try to make it work to give our kids a two parent home.

Kristy says:
who says i'm looking online...yes, i meet people and have met people from online, but have made mostly friends, and enjoyed going out on some dates, but online is not the only place i meet people

ray says:
Kristy, let's be realistic. If some guy came along that you were really attracted to, you would try to have something with him. Otherwise, you wouldn't say you're on there for serious relationships and you wouldn't leave comments to guys such as "I don't normally leave 'you're hot
' comments, but nice, very, very nice"
Or, "I wouldn't kick you out of the bed"
etc
Treat me like an angel and I'll be your devil
not exactly comments for "friends".

Kristy says:
ray there is nothing wrong with leaving compliments, flirtatious remarks, whatever, nothing wrong with that...

ray says:
For me, it's about the kids. They would be best off in a two parent home and I was willing to work on our problems.

Kristy says:
what is wrong is you checking up on all my friend's webpages to check out all my activity, who i'm talking to, what i'm saying

ray says:
I was willing to address the issues you had problems with and to work.

Kristy says:
and yes, one of the things listed i am open for is a serious relationship, not looking for it, but one day it may happen down the road, so yes, that option is there, nothing wrong with it

ray says:
kristy, you're not some woman I just met 6 months ago. You were my wife, the mother of my kids. Yes, I was going to go through withdrawl from losing you. That meant curiosity about what you were doing and if you were going to go out with someone.
You put that on there right after our divorce. Yet told me there was hope. It contradicted what you were telling me and made me feel like crap.
I'm sorry, Kristy, but I feel that our family and what we had is infinitely better than trying to get someone else to accept and put up with our kids.

Kristy says:
i never told you to sit around and wait since there was hope, i said one day there very well could be a chance in the future, but you have said and done a lot since then that has changed my opinion on things
To give them a home where the two people that loved them most in the world worked together to work out their problems and have a loving marriage.
Yet you haven't done one single thing since our divorce to show me an ounce of hope. Not a coffee, not a date. Nothing. Of course this would upset me. I cry every single day over losing our family.
How can I show niceness, compassion, love, if I'm not given the chance to?
Yet I'm supposed to put aside what I feel as I watch you go out with other men, make out with them in parking lots, and I'm sure by now other things have happened. This is very upsetting to someone that loved you very much and wanted to spend the rest of his life with you and be a good father.
Of course there's going to be a reaction to that. Belive me, I wish I could have flipped a switch and turned off my feelings and not felt anything as you did these things.

Kristy says:
ray, i kissed a guy in the parking lot before leaving...not exactly making out

Kristy says:
which you wouldn't have even seen if you wouldn't have been watching me from inside the door!

ray says:
You talk about my actions but have never addressed yours. You betrayed me in a horrible and painful way, yet I was willing to set that aside to save our marriage.
Kristy, you knew that the mall was one of the only places I could take the kids when I didn't have a place. Part of me thinks you purposely showed up there that day, considering that's where I always took the kids.
Again, you're not some woman I just met. Of course I'd be curious.
You could have just as easily suggested to him that you guys go somewhere else considering I was there with the kids.
Not exactly nice to rub my face in it.
So I don't understand, how exactly was there hope if we never got together and did things to rebuild our relationship, even to the point of friendship.
?
Not even a coffee. A baby step.

Kristy says:
ray, grow up, i didn't go there knowing you would be there that day, if anything i avoid where you will be, and once i saw you there, we did leave...and it's not rubbing your face in it when you are the one who followed over to the door and watched me in the parking lot to see what i was doing, i was out there like 5-10 min before we even kissed goodbye that day and you stood there and watched,

Kristy says:
that isnt my fault you saw

ray says:
Hard to maintain hope when you see your ex w making out with other men and leaving them suggestive comments and wishing them Happy Father's day when I barely get a 'hi'.

Kristy says:
and hope was blown to pieces with things you said and did afterward, sides of you i saw that totally turned every feeling i ever had of possibility into nothing

ray says:
That hurt a lot.
Those things hurt, yet you can't even acknowledge what kind of pain you've caused me.

Kristy says:
ray we are divorced!!! i don't need to go to coffee with you, i don't need to have conversations and dates with you, i don't need to censor myself with what i say to other men, and i shouldn't have to worry my ex is watching me when i'm out with someone

ray says:
Then why did you tell me to have hope?
!
Have faith.
be patient and lets heal
your words

Kristy says:
there used to be that at one point but a lot has happened, sorry you don't see that...

Kristy says:
and i made it very clear it would not be right away if ever

ray says:
What is this "a lot"? The myspace crap?

Kristy says:
i'm not going back over everything with you again ray

ray says:
considering what I tried to do for you on Mother's Day, the invitations to be friends, to talk, hardly "a lot" of bad things have happened.
Things could have been much worse.

Kristy says:
ray that is what saddens me more than anything, you just don't seem to recognize the amount of trouble you have caused

ray says:
Hard to not feel anger and betrayal and confusion when the person you loved deeply and cared for is so callous.
So what can I do other than apologize? I tried to mend your friendships, they reached out to you and you stood them up! I've opened my house to you to come see the kids when I have them. I have bought you cards, flowers. Made gestures.
What else can I say other than I'm sorry. That we have a chance to put all this madness behind us before it's too late.
I have reached out to you over and over again.

Kristy says:
ray that's the thing, you haven't left me alone...ever!

ray says:
My gestures have been met with apathy, anger, and venom.
Kristy, there will always be a level of interaction between us because of the kids.

Kristy says:
i know that ray, but only a minimum, what is needed for arrangements, but you don't settle for just that
I've forgiven your infidelity, I payed you CS when I was unemployed, I didn't make a big deal of you not honoring our divorce agreement when you pocketed that money
You sold our van that the bank still has the lien to
and I'm stuck with the payments
I've looked past all of that and have wished for us to put all this behind us for our kids.
That's what has bothered me the most. You never gave me a fair chance. Had you not been unfaithful, we would still be together because you would have seen for yourself the man that I became while deployed and the things I realized when I felt I was going to die.
I cuttoff my mother on my own. I pledged to myself to be a better husband and father when I came back.
I wanted to love you deeper than you had ever been loved.

Kristy says:
ray, whether i made out with that guy or not, we would not have been together, you came home and i was done already and told you i wanted out

ray says:
And when we got here I REALLY wanted to plan romantic things now that we were in an environment where we could do such things.
Kristy, you did A LOT more than make out.

ray says:
To my knowledge he's the only one, but I suspect there were others. Maybe not to the extent of him, but I'm sure you at least kissed some of the others.

Kristy says:
whatever ray, i'm not going to engage you on this topic once more
Kristy, you saw how devastated I was before I knew of your infidelity, and you were willing to give me a chance.

Kristy says:
no ray i wasn't

ray says:
You told me you would give me that chance and then I found out about the cheating.

Kristy says:
i couldn't have made it work anymore

ray says:
Why didn't you consider counseling? Something, anything to save our marriage? None of the problems were permanent or unsolvable, especially when I was so willing to address them.

Kristy says:
u came home and i was already ready to leave, you know that, and no, didn't like to see you crashing down from it all and wanted to be able to give you a chance, but knew it wouldn't work

Kristy says:
in your eyes ray

ray says:
Then why did you tell me otherwise?
Were you just biding your time to set things up leagally?
Why did we go out every Friday?
Why did you show me affection when I did things as you wanted me to?

Kristy says:
i was hoping to maintain a good friendship with us ray

ray says:
Why not counseling?

Kristy says:
and i was affectionate when you were a nice person to be around, because while i didn't want to be married to you, i still cared
What baffles me is how I could read letters telling me how good a father and husband I was and how deeply you loved me, then have you switch those feelings off?
You told me you were so optimistic you were leaving me the Christmas decorations.
Were those just things that you felt I wanted to hear? Where did the love, the vows, the committment go? Does having a loving father for your kids not mean anything to you?
Giving them an intact home?


Kristy says:
ray don't try to make me feel guilty once again

ray says:
I told you years ago that I was willing to work through anything and work hard to save things.
Even infidelity. I told you that long ago before anything bad happened between us.
It'
It's not guilt. It's trying to make sense of a loss when less than a year ago you and I were in England having a great time riding coasters and going on dates.
Those last months in England were the happiest I remember in our marriage.
The retreat, the fourth of july, the anticipation of coming back to the states.
shopping in nice malls again.
settling into our nice new house.
These were the things I remember very happily. That's why it's been so hard to let go. It would have been so different if you and I had years of problems and I could see this coming.
What I remember is a couple that stuck together through terrible times and thought they were stronger because of it.
And now, our kids will grow up with separate homes, shuttling back and forth. Wondering if one parent or the other and hoping that both will go to their events.
Just like you told me you were a good wife to me, I was a good husband to you. Not perfect, but I tried my damndest to balance you, work, and the kids.
Do these things mean nothing? What are you hoping to find? Think these myspace guys will give it to you?
I could at least understand if you were in love with someone else and wanted to try things out with him, but there isn't even that.
You have chosen this path. To you, the grass is greener on the other side. You had a man that was loyal, committed, and willing to work with you. I wanted to do whatever it took to make you happy.
There are consequences to this choice. Our kids are going to suffer because of it.
You don't see it, but they will.
For them, I would be willing to do anything, forgive anything, and work my butt off to give them a happy home. It is the committment I made when I took my vows.
Have you found my class ring?
Are you drafting an agreement with a lawyer?
Are you going to answer the last two questions?
I need to know about my class ring and about the visitation agreement.
I have my reunion coming up.
I would like to be able to wear my ring.
well?
I'm guessing you're on the phone
Kristy, I really want an answer to the last two questions. I want to know if you are going to give me my ring, and if you're going to draft a legal visitation arangement.

Papaof3,

My friend, you are definitely wrapped too tight right now.I am very worried about anyone that can transcribe??? a telephone conversation of the length above.

Papa, you need to back off for your health, both physical and mental. Get to your family doc, let him examine you and get on some anti-depressants if he feels they are in order.

Get out and walk, run or drive.

Exhaust yourself physically.

Get in a plane and fly.

Get involved with helping someone or some cause unrelated to marital or family woes.

Papa, you are in my prayers.

hey...i dont know all of your sitch, but from i have picked up is that your W cheated and pretty much screwed your life and is now screwing your time up with your kid....

bruatl honesty???? ill give you an opinion from what i read....

GROW some balls!! bro!!! (i dont mean that in a mean way either) you arnt the only one who is going through something like this so here goes...


first....you have to see that she is using your kid against you...she will NOT do anything to make your relationship with your child easy...

SHE DONT CARE!!

second....the sooner you realize this...the better for you...

your exchange should have been...

""Kristy says:
u called

ray says:
yes. I left messages asking to have the kids call.
Is Amanda still up?


Kristy says:
she went to bed early because she didn't nap today

ray says:
Do you have your vonage setup yet? It only takes a few minutes and it would allow me to call them during the day.
I really would like it if she called me everyday when I don't see her. If I don't get to see them, please let me talk to them.
Please get your vonage setup. It really only takes a few minutes. I really miss being able to talk to her during the day."""

at this point i would have said..."OK. no problem, just wanted to call and say g'nite, i have plans and wanted to talk before i left, but no prob, ill call back tomarrow....gd'bye"


afterward...go beat up your pillow or vent to a friend....

NEVER NEVER NEVER have another conversation like you did with your XW....

it not only destroys your self respect, but she will think your a total wimp, (sorry bro, but that was my opinion too) and you will actually push her further away and she will make your life miserable with the kid...


third.....why in the world would you ask her on a date????? or to dinner???? are YOU THAT NEEDY??? and beaten down?????

thats the impression i got....

from the gist of this exchange you gave her incredible power over you and total control.....

i know it sucks.....but STOP letting her have that much power over you....

TRUST me...the minute you start to get on with your life and stop hassling her or pursueing her....her whole attitude may change...my XW's did....

the next time she calls, tell her your busy, have plans or whatever and BLOW her off....

just try it, and see if you get a different reaction from her....

THE LAST THING SHE WANTS IS FOR YOU TO BE HAPPY!!! NEVER forget that.....

from this whole exchange...i read that you are miserable and full of self pity...

you want honesty....thats my honest opinion....

hang in there!

cyamanca: It's not a phone conversation. It's instant messenger. All I did was cut and past.

sturgis: Thanks. I know. I need to start. I guess I'm hoping for some magical explanation and logic as to why she did what she did. How long did it take for your ex to wake up? Did you take her back?

Remove your WW from the equation.

Buy your children a special phone just for them. A cell phone. Give it to the oldest and tell them to keep it in his/her bedroom and that you will call them each night or they can call you before going to bed.

If she continues to threaten that you cannot speak to them everyday, speak with a lawyer....and dont tell your WW about it!

Papa,

Step one: Save the IM exchange to a special folder and forward a copy of the exchange to your attorney. Some of what she used might be usable against her in the custody dispute to show she is not doing what is in the best interests of the children, which is allowing them access to their father. The fact that she did not deny your statement about how she didn't use the money to pay off the debts and went and bought a new car might be usable against her on the contempt claim.

Step two: Move on. You are going to get know where with this woman. All interactions with her should be short, sweet and succinct - and should only address issues relating to the children. Yes, you are still a family to those children, but you and wife are no longer family. Your doing things together, now, "as a family" means you and your kids, not you, your kids and XW.

Step three: With your background, any commercial airline would snap you up. Continental has a hub in Newark, which is not ALL that far from MD. They pay phenomenally and your new financial status might be very appealing to your XW.....especially when you consider the travel benefits for your immediate family....you could take kids on all kinds of GREAT vacations to all kinds of wonderful places....don't you think she'd be jealous of that? Don't you think she'd want a piece of that? Don't you think she'd admire you for taking charge of your life and not letting her call the shots on what you will do, not do and when?

Step 4: Find out whether your state has a Standard Visitation Order. If it does, it will set forth the hows and whens of visitation (including Holidays) and you will cut her off at the knees because I don't think she will like what it says!!!! If it does not, post back on here and I will get you a copy of the Standard Visitation Order here in TX....

Regards,

BB

Brit is the greatest! Follow her advice closely!

There is NOTHING attractive about begging. Stop it. You are driving her away by chasing her and begging her.

What IS attractive is confidence. Start getting your act together and let her chase you. Start becoming less available to her.

to my knowledge, there is no standard visitation in MD. It is usually done through mediation, and if that doesn't work, then it goes to trial.

I got hired by a PriceWaterhouseCoopers, which is a huge company, and they're paying me 90K a year to start. It's a good job, but not as exciting as flying. That's ok, though, since I live 5 minutes away from kids.

It has great benefits and a good culture. I'll know more in about 6 months how I like it. If I don't, I'll have some good things on my resume that I can use to get a job that pays just as well but is closer to where I live.

I wouldn't mind seeing the TX standard visitation order.

Also, I save ALL my IM exchanges with her. I will give them to lawyer.

Papa,

I know you are hurting. I feel for you.

You know you are divorced don't you?

You know what divorce means right?

Your X can date an entire football team if she wishes, she is a single woman. You don't have a say as to her dating habits.

Stop all this madness.


Get your kids a cellphone and call them. Get your X out of the middle. You have a relationship to build with your kids, your relationship, as husband and wife, with you x is over.

I'm sorry Papa, but this behavior is just going to push your X further and further from her.

Leave her alone.

Well, if brutal honesty is what you want.....


You will never get back together with your ex-wife. Never. That relationship is over, and it cannot and will not be re-established. You two are done forever.

You keep saying it is about the kids, and then you keep pushing and pushing and pushing to try to get your wife back. That won't happen.

No, you can't have dinner with her as a family - you aren't a family. No, you can't work on the issues with your marriage - you don't have a marriage. No, you have no right to tell what kind of comments people can leave on her myspace account - it is none of your business.

No wonder she doesn't want to set up the vonage thing - just another way for you to nag at her and harass her and try to get back in.




How much of a whack with the Clue Stick do you need? She doesn't like you anymore. She doesn't want to be married to you. She doesn't want to have anything more to do with you than the arrangements of the children require.

And then this piece of BS from you -

She stops engaging you, and you immediately try to find something to drag her back so you can return to this endless, obsessive nagging and nagging and trying to pretend.

Cripes, this is just creepy!

IT'S OVER.

Here you go Papa (and any others who do not live in states with Standard Possession Orders - this is truly a solid middle ground that a mediator or judge will jump on as reasonable....)

TEXAS STANDARD POSSESSION ORDER:

Texas Standard Possession Order
It is the policy of this state to encourage frequent contact between a child and each parent for periods of possession that optimize the development of a close and continuing relationship between each parent and child. It is preferable for all children in a family to be together during periods of possession.

School.

The term school means the primary or secondary school in which the child is enrolled, or if the child is not enrolled in a primary or secondary school, the public school district in which the child primarily resides.

Child.

The term child shall refer to the child or children of the parties and shall include the plural form wherever appropriate to the context.

IT IS ORDERED AND DECREED that the parties shall have possession of the child at any and all times mutually agreed to in advance by the parties and, in the absence of mutual agreement, shall have possession of the child under the specified terms set out in this Standard Possession Order.

A. PARENTS WHO RESIDE 100 MILES OR LESS APART

(a) If the possessory conservator resides 100 miles or less from the primary residence of the child, the possessory conservator shall have the right to possession of the child as follows:

(1) Weekends. On weekends beginning: (CHECK ONE)

______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the first, third and fifth Friday of each month;

______ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed on the first, third and fifth Friday of each month;

_______ If the child is enrolled in school, at_______ o'clock____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the first, third and fifth Friday of each month;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the following Sunday.

______ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after the weekend.

(2) Weekend Possession Extended By Holiday. If a weekend period of possession of the possessory conservator coincides with a school holiday during the regular school term, or with a federal, state or local holiday during the summer months in which school is not in session, the weekend possession shall begin: (CHECK ONE)

_______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. Thursday for a Friday holiday or school holiday;

_______ At the time the child's school is regularly dismissed for a Friday holiday or school holiday;

_______ If the child is enrolled in school, at_______ o'clock____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the day that the child's school is regularly dismissed for a Friday holiday or school holiday;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

_______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on a Monday holiday or school holiday;

_______ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after a Monday holiday or school holiday.

(3) Wednesday. On Wednesdays of each week during the regular school term beginning:

(CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m.;

________ At the time the child's school is regularly dismissed; and ending at 8:00 o'clock p.m.

(b) The following provisions govern possession of the child for vacations and certain holidays and supersede conflicting weekend or Wednesday periods of possession. The possessory conservator and the managing conservator shall have rights of possession of the child as follows:

(1) Spring Vacation. The possessory conservator shall have possession of the child in even-numbered years beginning: (CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day the child is dismissed from school for the school's spring vacation;

_________ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed for the school's spring vacation;

________ If the child is enrolled in school, at _______ o'clock _____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the day the child is dismissed from school for the school's spring vacation;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day before school resumes after that vacation.

________ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after that vacation.

The managing conservator shall have possession for the same period in odd-numbered years.

(2) Summer.

(A) If the possessory conservator gives the managing conservator written notice by May 1 of each year specifying an extended period or periods of summer possession, the possessory conservator shall have possession of the child for thirty (30) days beginning not earlier than the day after the child's school is dismissed for the summer vacation and ending not later than seven (7) days before school resumes at the end of the summer vacation, to be exercised in not more than two (2) separate periods of at least seven (7) consecutive days each.

(B) If the possessory conservator does not give the managing conservator written notice by May 1 of each year specifying an extended period or periods of summer possession, the possessory conservator shall have possession of the child for thirty (30) consecutive days beginning at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on July 1 and ending at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on July 31.

(C)If the managing conservator gives the possessory conservator written notice by June 1 of each year, the managing conservator shall have possession of the child on any one weekend beginning Friday at 6:00 o'clock p.m. and ending at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the following Sunday during any one period of possession by the possessory conservator under Subdivisions (b)(1) or (b)(2), provided that the managing conservator picks up the child from the possessory conservator and returns the child to that same place.

(D) If the managing conservator gives the possessory conservator written notice by May 15 of each year or gives the possessory conservator 14 days' written notice on or after May 16 of each year, the managing conservator may designate one weekend beginning not earlier than the day after the child's school is dismissed for the summer vacation and ending not later than seven (7) days before school resumes at the end of the summer vacation, during which an otherwise scheduled weekend period of possession by the possessory conservator will not take place, provided that the weekend so designated does not interfere with the possessory conservator's period or periods of extended summer possession or with Father's Day weekend if the possessory conservator is the father of the child.

B. PARENTS WHO RESIDE OVER 100 MILES APART

If the possessory conservator resides more than 100 miles from the residence of the child, the possessory conservator shall have the right to possession of the child as follows:

a) Weekends. On weekends beginning: (CHECK ONE)

______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the first, third, and fifth Friday of each month;

______ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed on the first, third and fifth Friday of each month;

______ If the child is enrolled in school, at _______ o'clock____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the first, third and fifth Friday of each month;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

_____ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the following Sunday.

______If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after the weekend.

(b) Alternative Weekend Possession. In lieu of the foregoing, the possessory conservator shall have the right to possession of the child not more than one weekend per month of the possessory conservator's choice beginning: (CHECK ONE)

_______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day school recesses for the weekend;

_______ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed for the weekend;

_______ If the child is enrolled in school, at _______ o'clock _____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the day school recesses for the weekend; and ending: (CHECK ONE)

_______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day before school resumes after the weekend.

________ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after the weekend. The possessory conservator may elect an option for this alternative period of possession by giving written notice to the managing conservator within ninety (90) days after the parties begin to reside more than 100 miles apart. If the possessory conservator makes this election, the possessory conservator shall give the managing conservator fourteen (14) days' written or telephonic notice preceding a designated weekend.

(C)Weekend Possession Extended By Holiday. If a weekend period of possession of the possessory conservator coincides with a school holiday during the regular school term, or with a federal, state or local holiday during the summer months in which school is not in session, the weekend possession shall begin: (CHECK ONE)

_______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. Thursday for a Friday holiday or school holiday;

_______ At the time the child's school is regularly dismissed for a Friday holiday or school holiday;

_______ If the child is enrolled in school, at _______ o'clock _____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the day that the child's school is regularly dismissed for a Friday holiday or school holiday;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

_______ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on a Monday holiday or school holiday;

_______If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after a Monday holiday or school holiday.

(d) Spring Vacation. Each year beginning: (CHECK ONE)

________At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day the child is dismissed from school for the school's spring vacation;

_________If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed for the school's spring vacation;

________ If the child is enrolled in school, at _________ o'clock _____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day the child is dismissed from school for the school's spring vacation;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day before school resumes after that vacation.

________ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after that vacation.

(e) Summer.

(1) If the possessory conservator gives the managing conservator written notice by May 1 of each year specifying an extended period or periods of summer possession, the possessory conservator shall have possession of the child for 42 days beginning not earlier than the day after the child's school is dismissed for the summer vacation and ending not later than seven (7) days before school resumes at the end of the summer vacation, to be exercised in not more than two (2) separate periods of at least seven (7) consecutive days each.

(2) If the possessory conservator does not give the managing conservator written notice by May 1 of each year specifying an extended period or periods of summer possession, the possessory conservator shall have possession of the child for 42 consecutive days beginning at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on June 15 and ending at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on July 27.

(3) If the managing conservator gives the possessory conservator written notice by June 1 of each year, the managing conservator shall have possession of the child on any one weekend beginning Friday at 6:00 o'clock p.m. and ending at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the following Sunday during any one period of possession by the possessory conservator under Subdivisions (5)(a) or (5)(b), provided that if a period of possession by the possessory conservator exceeds thirty (30) days, the managing conservator may have possession of the child under the terms of this subdivision on any two (2) nonconsecutive weekends during that time period, and further provided that the managing conservator picks up the child from the possessory conservator and returns the child to that same place.

4) If the managing conservator gives the possessory conservator written notice by June 1 of each year, the managing conservator may designate 21 days beginning not earlier than the day after the child's school is dismissed for the summer vacation and ending not later than seven (7) days before school resumes at the end of the summer vacation, to be exercised in not more than two (2) separate periods of at least seven (7) consecutive days each, during which the possessory conservator may not have possession of the child, provided that the period or periods so designated do not interfere with the possessory conservator's period or periods of extended summer possession or with Father's Day weekend if the possessory conservator is the father of the child.

C. HOLIDAY POSSESSION

The following provisions govern possession of the child for certain specific holidays and supersede conflicting weekend or Wednesday periods of possession without regard to the distance the parents reside apart. The possessory conservator and managing conservator shall have rights of possession of the child as follows:

(a) Christmas.

(1) The possessory conservator shall have possession of the child in even-numbered years beginning at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day the child is dismissed from school for the Christmas vacation and ending at noon on December 26. The managing conservator shall have possession for the same period in odd-numbered years.

(2)The possessory conservator shall have possession of the child in odd-numbered years beginning at noon on December 26 and ending: (CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day before school resumes after that vacation.

_________If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after that vacation.

The managing conservator shall have possession for the same period in even-numbered years.

(b) Thanksgiving. The possessory conservator shall have possession of the child in odd-numbered years beginning: (CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the day the child is dismissed from school before Thanksgiving;

________ If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed for the Thanksgiving vacation;

________If the child is enrolled in school, at _______ o'clock _____.m. (specify time elected between the time the child's school is regularly dismissed and 6:00 o'clock p.m.) on the day the child is dismissed from school before Thanksgiving;

and ending: (CHECK ONE)

________ At 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the following Sunday.

_________If the child is enrolled in school, at the time the child's school resumes after that vacation.

The managing conservator shall have possession for the same period in even-numbered years.

(c) Child's Birthday. The parent not otherwise entitled under this standard order to present possession of a child on the child's birthday shall have possession of the child beginning at 6:00 o'clock p.m. and ending at 8:00 o'clock p.m. on that day, provided that said parent picks up the child from the residence of the conservator entitled to possession and returns the child to that same place.

(d) Father's Day Weekend. If a conservator, the father shall have possession of the child beginning at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the Friday preceding Father's Day and ending on Father's Day at 6:00 o'clock p.m., provided that, if he is not otherwise entitled under this standard order to present possession of the child, he picks up the child from the residence of the conservator entitled to possession and returns the child to that same place.

(e) Mother's Day Weekend. If a conservator, the mother shall have possession of the child beginning at 6:00 o'clock p.m. on the Friday preceding Mother's Day and ending on Mother's Day at 6:00 o'clock p.m., provided that, if she is not otherwise entitled under this standard order to present possession of the child, she picks up the child from the residence of the conservator entitled to possession and returns the child to that same place.

D. GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS

Without regard to the distance between the residence of the parent and the child:

(a) The managing conservator shall surrender the child to the possessory conservator at the beginning of each period of the possessory conservator's possession at the residence of the managing conservator.

(b) If the possessory conservator elects to begin a period of pos session at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed, the managing conservator shall surrender the child to the possessory conservator at the beginning of each such period of possession at the school in which the child is enrolled.

(c) The possessory conservator shall: (CHECK ONE)

_______ Surrender the child to the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession at the residence of the possessory conservator.

________Return the child to the residence of the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession. The possessory conservator shall surrender the child to the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession at the residence of the possessory conservator if (1) the possessory conservator's county of residence remains the same after the rendition of this order, and the managing conservator's county of residence changes, effective on the date of the change of domicile by the managing conservator, or (2) the possessory conservator and managing conservator lived in the same residence at any time during a six-month period preceding the date on which a suit for dissolution of the marriage was filed and the possessory conservator's county of residence remains the same and the managing conservator's county of residence changes after they no longer live in the same residence, effective on the date the order is rendered.

(d) If the possessory conservator elects to end a period of possession at the time the child's school resumes, the possessory conservator shall surrender the child to the managing conservator at the end of each such period of possession at the school in which the child is enrolled.

(e) Each conservator shall return with the child the personal effects that the child brought at the beginning of the period of possession.

(f) Either parent may designate any competent adult to pick up and return the child, as applicable. A parent or a designated competent adult shall be present when the child is picked up or returned.

(g) A parent shall give notice to the person in possession of the child on each occasion that the parent will be unable to exercise that parent's right of possession for any specified period. Repeated failure of a parent to give notice of an inability to exercise possessory rights may be considered as a factor in a modification of those possessory rights.

(h) Written notice shall be deemed to have been timely made if received or postmarked before or at the time that notice is due.

(I) If a conservator's time of possession of a child ends at the time school resumes and for any reason the child is not or will not be returned to school, the conservator in possession of the child shall immediately notify the school and the other conservator that the child will not be or has not been returned to school.

Okay, now that I posted that, I wanted to add that I chuckled that you are now with PWC. Prior to meeting and marrying XH, I was engaged to and lived with a commercial airline pilot. He graduated Magna Cum Laude with an engineeering degree from one of the highest ranked engineering school in the country. He went to work for a VERY recognized company working on the precursor to the Star Wars stuff the government was working on for so long. He decided engineering wasn't for him and went back to school for a MBA in Finance. He graduated With Honors from one of the top ranked business schools in the country. He then went to work from PW (before it was PWC0). He hated it! SOOOOOO, he got his commercial pilot's license, did his stint with a small regional airline to get his flight hours, and is not with one of the major carriers. He makes more at the airline (with a MUCH better work schedule and benefits) than he would have had working in either of his previous careers!!! He also used his Finance degree to his personal advantage managing his investments. He has money in all major stock markets and is worth a WHOLE heck of a lot. (Too bad money can't buy personality and social skills)!

Regards,

BB

BRUTAL HONESTY HERE:

That seemed desperate, and something a loser would write. Papa....let her go. You need to move on for real man. Your EX as said above, is not coming back. Further more, she probably thinks you are really pathetic with all the begging and nagging in that email. Grow a nuttsack and go out and enjoy life a bit. I guarantee you that your EX will respect you much more if you act like you have a backbone. Right now she thinks you are an AXE murderer.....j/k, but you do probably make her skin crawl with these messages.


From personal experience.....I did the same thing to my XW, and until I grew a pair.....got my self esteem up and left her alone, did she begin to respect me again. When my new wife and I go to events that involve our kids.....everyone tells me they see my XW staring at me....(us sometimes). You can tell she is miserable and knows she made a mistake.

My XW would have never changed unless I let her go.....you need to do the same man.

God Bless.

creepy?

Withdrawl is more like it. I never saw this coming. I'm still searching for answers for why she did this.

I understand I won't get them.

That doesn't change her getting a phone. I have no way of contacting my kids and the nanny has nothing she can use to call someone in case of an emergency other than to run to a neighbor. I have no way of getting a hold of them in case of an emergency.

Thanks to Alhumand and Startinover.

It helps to hear that others have gone through the same thing and are now well and happy.

Yes, I believe my ex will be just like yours. Someday she'll regret what she's done.

It has been hard to get back on my feet. I'm slowly getting there and like the feedback on this forum. I appreciate it, even when it can be biting.

Throwing her butt into court is a start. At this point, what do I have to lose?

I didnt mean to be OVERLY rough, but sometimes someone needs to hear this in order to get through to them.

I do agree that you XW needs to supply you with a means to contact your kids. My kids are still young, but they know my cellphone number, and I can call my XWs cell at anytime to contact the kids. My stepson is 10 and has his own cellphone, so he can get in touch with his mother and I and can call his dad at will.

Good luck man, again Im sorry to be so rough....

Papa this is of critical importance to your lawyer with regard to the custody issue. She has not provided the nanny with a phone to use in event of emergencies.

Regards,

BB

Not rough. It's ok. Tough love is good. It is also a wakeup. It's like slapping someone and shaking them and telling them to get a hold of themselves. It's ok if it works. That's what I need.

Weakness kept me from acting on what I knew I should have done in my gut back when I foudnd out about all of this. I let her stay in the house and begged and pleaded and did all that I shouldn't.

two thoughts....

the advice to save IM's is right on....it sounds like you already did that...

you have to realize that she is and will continue to disprespect you and will do everything oposite of what you want regarding the child...

it dosent really matter how many times you go to court or what a judge says....THERE ARE NO WINNERS...and the biggest loser is your kid!!!!!

heres what i did....i agreed...i agreed with everything....she only wanted me to have my kids every other weekend...I AGREED...

she didnt want me hangin around during the week....I AGREED

she dosent want to hook up the phone....AGREE!!! "hey no prob"....

when you talk to her....think about how you are going to "beat her at her own game"....around her its always "game on"....

this type of stuff went on with me and my ex about 6 months....for the last 2 1/2 years i get my kids 50/50 equal time!!

look at it this way.....SHE CANNOT get on with her life while there is a child with her....she will need child care and babysitting...

she will NEED you long before you ever will NEED her again

ONCE YOU LET GO!!!!

start going on dates...go to coffee, the movies, lunch...it dont matter...just make yourself more attractive and confident....

there will always be things about your X that you will miss....i still miss cetain things 3 years later...but....

my X is ugly on the inside...and nothing will change that but herself...you will also get to that point in time....

im 3 years into my D, and i would NEVER go back....but the first year was hard....darkest days of my life, so i know how you feel...

just work on yourself right now....

think of it this way........

ask anyone especially a woman.....i truely belive it is HARDER for a single woman with a child to find someone that wants a pre-made family than it is for a man...(i personally would NOT have a relationship with a woman with kids) TOO much hassle with X's and such....

GIVE HER THE GIFT OF "missing you"....you cant do that when you beg, pursue or hassle!!!

i been dating a awesome gal for last year and half that i just happened to meet at starbucks while i was getting my truck washed......SO.....

it can happen and once you see life goes on....you will be in a much better place!

im a cop for over 21 years so D runs high in my line of work...i see it everyday...you may think or feel that she Holds all the ace's....but if you take all the advice that has been given you....the power will shift and you may realize that you will eventually get what you want....

right now she NEEDS you to fight with...she NEEDS you to be angry....she NEEDS you as an outlet....

STOP giving that to her...

STOP asking about a ring....

STOP hassling her about the phone....

AGREE to the arrangements right now and take the extra time to get on with your life!!!

enjoy your freedom

the minute YOU start to change....SHE will notice and you will notice the change also....

but be careful what you wish for.....the last thing you ever want is the cops or courts dictating your custody or visitation....i know form first hand...

slow down and take a break for a few weeks....

and see if doing the oposite works....

heck...i went out and bought a chopper and started going to Stugis every year...riding all over....FREAKED her out and made her JEALOUS!!!

do something you love with your spare time and it will ease the pain of missing your child....

and down the road if it dosnt change....THEN YOU FIGHT....but that should be the last resort....

thats just my honest opinion.

oh yeah....

what do you have to lose by going to court????

you can lose EVERYTHING!!!

what if she paints you as an emotional wreck...and takes that IM exchange to court....several people already told you what it sounds like...

"you wound too tight"

"creepy"

just to name a few....

you may get court ordered 20% visitaion and what happens if they order "supervised" visits...

paint you as a war vet with PTSD etc.....

im trying to make a point...

SLEEP on it...try to slow down....

in my opinion YOU are using your kid against her too!!!!

this will just further destroy any relationship down the road....

right now your hurting and your pissed off!! understandable....

but slow down.

Papa....once you get yourself in a better place everything falls into place...you must focus on you! YOU! YOU!!!

It pained me reading your exchanges.....

Look.....at my story...I was in the same place you were....and as I became ok with myself and my situation things change.....

Good luck

Why aren't YOU doing this?

You claim to have an atty.
You claim to be broke.
You claim to have retained said atty with a credit card. You claim to have a 90k salary job.
You claim your XW is in contempt.

You keep posing empty threats (on the board) that you are going to take her back to court. Don't threaten, DO IT! Why are you continuing to hand over all control over your parental rights over to your XW?

Also, you were cautioned on your previous thread about getting involved with an XGF (married woman) who wants to fly in from CA to see you. You are bordering on becoming involved in an affair yourself. That thread has conveniently slipped from page 1 as you continue to dodge the tough questions.

Dude, you need to let this go before you end up with a TRO against you. These kinds of exchanges do nothing but diminish you and give your EX-WIFE ammunition to paint you as a nut-job. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty.

Your #1 priority should be to get a good legally binding shared parenting agreement. You should not have to settle for minimum "visitation". You need sound legal advice from an attorney regarding this. Your ex-ww is holding all the cards as long as you let her.

Forget about ex-ww and concentrate on being the dad your kids desperately need.

Forget about using stuff like IM transcripts for custody-related stuff. The IM transcript doesn't show anything except that you refuse to let go of her.

Say nothing to ex-ww aside from discussing schedules for the children. Any other talk is unwanted and, frankly, inappropriate given that you are divorced. You are not her husband anymore and you need to deal with that.

Take the advice here and get your children a cell phone. I did exactly this for my children and it removes ExWife from the equation very nicely.

Sorry if this seems harsh but we do care. You really need to see you are heading down a road you will regret.

ITB

I thinks that's for his lawyer to decide. If this were one of my clients, there are things I could do to his XW on cross-examination with this stuff....For example, in addition to there being no denial on her part that she did not act in accordance with their divorce decree with regard to paying of debt, this could very easily be used to show she is denying him access to their kids. No matter what her feelings are for him, she is denying him access to their kids without court order allowing her to do so. Additional cross examination of XW should she try to paint Papa out as a nut job would be along the lines of, "If you felt this way Mrs. Papa, why did it take you so long to bring this up and you only now bring it up as a defense to his not gaining custody?" You see, if she truly felt visitation with Papa was not in the best interests of the children, she would proactively get a court order either 1) denying him any access (courts RARELY if ever do this) or 2) requiring supervised visitation.

Additionally, his XW would have to have a psychiatric expert say he is mentally unfit to have anything but supervised visitation with his children. That right there would be fun on cross examination because the expert would have to explain why a person's spouse, having an affair on them and leaving them while they are defending our country against enemy combatants, would not affect anybody the way it has affected Papa. Heck, all of us BS's here can attest to the emotional trauma involved with just the affair and spouse leaving. Also, Papa would be able to present his own psych experts to say he's not mentally unstable - battle of the experts so to speak (This is exactly why Andrea Yates was convicted in her first trial but not the second).

Regards,

BB

papa...

You are getting great advice here. Please take heed of the advice and start moving on in your life. If things are "meant to be", re: your exW coming out of the fog and wanting to rekindle a life with you, you need to be a lot stronger in order to deal with it.

In other words, start to focus on a state of emotional detachment from her. Focus all of your thoughts and actions on your life. Heal. Regain your strength and self-esteem. As a BS, I know how an A can strip you of all your dignity. It's time for papa to step into a new box of thinking, and start living life as a single dad.

I agree with the others...get your kids a cell phone. An extension from yours can be as cheap at $10 a month. Then, exW is out of the picture. If she restrains their access or use, that's fodder for your attorney in denial of access.

Get with your attorney and get the custody issues out and on the table. Document every transaction. Do not let any lingering feelings for your exW cloud your thinking. As MortarMan said, this is a war. Approach the custody issue with military precision and tenacity.

Stop with the quibbling with the ex.... as I've stated before, you are willingly handing all the power over to her, and leaving yourself with a bent barrel and no ammo. Just stop it. It's a no win situation. And right now, you have more to lose than exW.

Absorb all these wonderful posts, develop your plan, and execute.

Best wishes,
SD

BB,

Thanks so much! It is great to hear from a lawyer.

Here's the facts:

I've watched the kids EVERY single weekend since coming home from the war in order to let her go out clubbing. It happened while we were still married and continued after D. While in MD, and unemployed, I had them 2-3 times a week plus every weekend. Again, so she could go shopping and clubbing. The only exception to this was a 2 week trip to CA when I went to visit family.

I have a copy of the original check that was signed over to her and the stamp from her bank showing she deposited it. I have the records from my broker that they gave me this check.

She has even said she would let me have them one night per weekend (it benefits her).

I have started video taping my weekends with the kids. I show them playing in their rooms at my house, playing with me, and going to the park with me to feed the ducks.

I have videos going back years of myself reading to them and showing them how to walk.

I would have to be diagnosed with PTSD, which wouldn't happen. I don't have it. Yes, there were moments I was in a lot of danger and they scared me, but the dangers I faced don't cause me nightmares.

I have collected as many awards that I've received through the years, as well as news articles to put into a portfolio.

I have been giving her money despite not being obligated by my D agreement and the fact that I was unemployed for 3 months.

As far as my mental state goes, this is what happened to me:

Went to war.
Came back to alien wife that didn't resemble at all the one I left.
Found blog on myspace stating she was divorced when she wasn't.
Used keylogger to read her messages and found she had ONS with one of her dates.
Went through devastation of that plus her telling me I had to convince her to stay in marriage.
Got pulled from flying because of my emotional state.
One month after D-day she tells me she wants a D and feels we have to get it.
I agree to no contest D, because she convinces me it is the most amicable way to split and have hope for future.
During this time she stays in contact with all her myspace "friends" and goes shopping all day Saturday and clubbing on Sat nights.
We D.
She moves to WV with kids. I follow a few days later to be near them.
I'm unemployed for 3 months, living with friends, and don't have my family any more.

War, unemployment, infidelity, divorce, moving, uncertainty, not seeing kids. That pretty much sums it up. Yes, I crashed when I saw her make out with a guy in a parking lot and my I upset my daughter because I wasn't in any condition to take her to playground like I promised. THAT killed me inside. To know that my inability to control my grief was hurting my daughter.

I sought psychiatric help at that point. Have been doing infinitely better since.

This exchange with ex W is not the norm. It was my last ditch attempt at pleading to her to come to her senses before getting nasty legally.

BA109, it's coming. I had to wait for her to move to MD before I could act because of jurisdiction issues. She didn't do so until 2 weeks ago. Things were in motion legally before then. Now I'm preparing myself for the fight, collecting documents, phone records, IMs, and a meticulous diary. I document when I call and don't get to talk to kids. I document the basic gyst of all our conversations. I document when I call and it is her parents and not the nanny watching the kids because she's "out".

I hear every one. I thank you all for your advice. I'm trying to get there. I've been a very forgiving person all my life.

As far as my exGF goes. She's getting divorced. It's not a maybe, it's happening. They both want it. I had nothing to do with their break up. I live in MD she's in Cali. No affair going on here. We're talking about having a divorce party when she comes. I'm not rushing into anything. We both know that neither one of us is willing to move from where we live. We're supporting each other through this rough time and similar situations.

BTW, the air force would not have cleared you to fly into combat if you were a nut job!!! I am SOOOOO behind our men who are fighting for everything in which we believe. One of my work colleagues son was killed in Iraq - he was only married 2 months. His FIL was higher up in the chain of command but was also in Iraq at the time of Bill's death. He was killed by friendly fire. His FIL escorted his body home. I have NEVER seen anything so moving as his funeral. The people of the city in which he grew up lined the street to the church for over a mile - both sides - with American flags. I was honored to sing at his Funeral Mass. For many days after his death, my 4 year old son and I would pray for "Sergeant Bill."

With regard to xgf, though, stay far away until you have healed - trust me on this one....

Regards,

BB

Ex won't setup her vonage phone account. I haven't bought my daughter a phone because she's four and I am afraid she'd lose it. She wouldn't know how to charge it.

I thought about buying it and giving it to the Nanny, but I wouldn't want it to be for her personal use.

I think it's ridiculous that she won't setup her vonage. It only takes a few minutes and not much more. She's had the equipment for about a month.

The nanny has no way of reaching anyone in case of emergency.

Get your kids AND/OR the nanny one of these special Kid Phones

It allows you to pre-program your number and allows 911 calls.

Hi Papa,

I have a hard time reconsiling the two persona's that are Papa. Military man, pilot, leader, hot-shot business man with impressive job.... none of this comes across with your dealings with your exW.

I study MTBI and personality types, and people 'speak' their type, in normal enviroments. They go to the opposite when extreamly stressed. Key is to figure out everyones language then to notice when they start veering off from their language. My sweet, light-hearted H gets all techincal when his world falls apart. He starts making lists and calling professionals.

What I see here is you falling to your most stressed point, giving in way too much to your emotional side. And that's not your strength, your strength is in your logical side. Key is to LOOK for the signs and pull back as soon as you see you are getting too emotional. I KNOW you are a strong, tough guy, I know from your life, but you're not using the part of your brain that got you there with your exW.

You've got to snap out of this, man! Crisp, sharp, and a little mad. She's not the person you thought she was, and she KNEW it... she mislead you. She was sneaky and manipulative, and she would have been with any H... that's her, not her reaction to you. That's just her. I know you loved her, but you will love again. She's not worthy. Someone will be! After you get all this nonsense straightened out, of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Dont keep retelling this story about what happened. It's done. You need to clear your mind, stop replaying it all in your head. Yell STOP, silently, in your head, that helped me. Choose to think about different things. I have a great book, "How to stubornly refuse to make yourself miserable about anything, yes anything" by Albert Elise. You'd like it, it's about Rational Emotive Therapy, restructuring your brain-talk. I loved it!

Brit's got it all right. No more than 3 sentences at a time... What, why, when, how... move on. Get the lawyers on the phone thing, that's actionable in any court. Please take CARE of YOURSELF!!! - Dru

Brit,

Well done.

[quote]I thought about buying it and giving it to the Nanny, but I wouldn't want it to be for her personal use.
/quote]

This is a triviality if it means you have access to your children and the Nanny has a means of contacting the authorities in the event of an emergency.

GET THAT PHONE THIS WEEKEND. And that's an order!

BB

Oooh Oooh Brain fart after I posted my last message....there are these things called Fireflies that you can get kids...it only has a set number of associated phones and, I believe, can contact 911...would solve your concern around Nanny making personal calls.

BB

Why have not you file with your Attorney yet? What's your EXCUSE?

The biggest obstacle to your recovery is YOU, not WW. You are just rationalizing and making excuses for not moving on, for not accepting reality.

You need to GROW A PAIR and MAN UP.

Dru,

I am having a particularly difficult time with this when reading Papa's threads. Parts of this saga just don't add up for me. But, perhaps it is only a stress related function of our personality, as you pointed out.

I HAVE filed with an attorney, the process is slow and I had to wait for her to move to MD so we could be in the same state

Fair enough. You still need to try to move on and concern yourself less with what your WW is up to and what could have been.

You need to heal Papa, and this will not happen if you keep obsessing yourself with what your WW is doing and trying to have her come back to you. She may come back, but not if you keep acting the way you are, and the time is probably not right yet for to do so anyway.

I know for a fact that at some point your WW will definitely regret what she is now doing, but you need to move on in the meanwhile. Stop engaging her into those mindless and pointless conversations. And you should stop groveling and grasping for straw. This rarely works.

In short, accept the fact that your M IS OVER…for now anyways.

Things have actually been easier recently. There's still a sting at the idea of her becoming serious with someone else, but it is just a sting vs the devastation I used to feel from it. My greatest concern with that has always been the kids.

At the same time, the kids are their own defense. I had them all day today. I always love having them. Yet, it is exhausting, and at times can be nerve racking. To me it is just something that you deal with since it's your children and you simply have to figure out why they're crying or acting up. With someone else, though, that would be a very big challenge.

I know my ex. There will come a point where she'll be willing to leave the kdis with whoever she ends up with or she'll demand his help. I don't see too many guys out there just jumping at the chance to deal with toddlers and their challenges. It is hard work. The kind that biological parents generally are happy to do, but it is only nerve racking to someone not their parent.

It's a standard thing I've observed. If my own kid is crying, I try to concentrate on what is making him cry and try to figure it out. If someone else's kid is crying, I'm patient for a little bit but eventually get irritated by it.

This is where I worry about how another man will be around them. Will they lash out when they can't get them to stop crying? Will he yell at them? Will she put up with that? Will my kids be smart enough or old enough to reach out to me if they're being abused?

No, I don't trust my ex in any way shape or form, especially in her choices.

I could care less if she meets someone that isn't good with her. It's the kids I worry about.

Yes, the day will come she will regret and realize what kind of a man and husband she had. I stuck by her side through some terrible times and was the first out of bed when the kids cried and I was always there helping her with them in every way. There were even times when I'd tell her to go to bed and let me handle them simply so she could rest and get some sleep.

Now, I have a new job and am being thrown right into a huge project right away. I have re-established old friendships and am actually optimistic about my personal future. I've hired a lawyer who is looking out for me and will file for a modification of custody next week.

I've rebuilt the broken relationships with my family and am genearlly just moving forward.

I'm still wounded, but the wounds are starting to heal, slowly.

I dropped the kids off this morning at her place. She told me to come up on messenger tonight to talk. Asked why we couldn't just talk on the phone and she said that all we ever do is end up arguing. Says she wants to discuss visitation and what we're going to do about it.

So how do I handle this?

1. I know I have to keep cool, not get emotional, and not make the same mistakes I've made in past.

2. I know I shouldn't show signs of wanting her back on my next exchange.

3. Don't lecture or accuse.

4. Keep it totally business.

5. Give her what she wants for now. Lawyer putting in papers this week for custody modification.

That's my approach for now. I'll post the exchange on here after we're done to get opinions.

Would like some pre-game prep from anyone who may want to throw in their two cents.

Thanks

Papa,

If I were you I would not engage her at all regarding visitation. That is what you have a lawyer for.

She has had her chance to work out an amicable agreement and she blew it.

I'll try and see.

I find it a bit odd that she specifically requested IM. My guess is that she wants me to say something on IM that she can try to use against me later.

I'll play it very carefully, as if I was being interrogated by an enemy.

Papaof3,

I would NOT discuss these topics on IM with her. YOu do realize that IM is not private? You do realize you could get trapped into something even worse than you have now? As has been pointed out YOU have a lawyer for this job, let the lawyer deal with it now.

For a man as well trained as you seem to be, you really don't seem to get the picture. It amazes me. The picture is simple. She is gone. YOU gave her full custody. She will fight for that as well as the child support because she uses it for her own benefit.

She does NOT want you.
She does NOT want your lawyer in this.
She does NOT want you involved with the children UNLESS it is convenient to her.
She DOES want your money.

Until you tactically get this through your head, you have NO business talking to this woman. You have given away far too much already. It is time to face reality or you won't be able to make the correct decisions.

It really is that simple. The person who posted to you about using your strengths (I cannot recall exactly who at the moment and don't want to offend by misnaming them), is dead on right. Listen to them. Listen to your lawyer. Don't listen to your EXw.

God Bless,

JL

You really are in deep enough. Why don't you leave it for the professionals to handle?

Your confidence is less than zero and your XW is clearly the boss of you. It might be best not to have these continued interactions with her.

It sounds like you had divorced quickly and never allowed yourself to actually get accustomed to the fact that she is not in your life anymore.
You need to give yourself time to get over her.
The best way for this is NO contact.
Get busy with your new job, make new friends, join the gym, do things with your kids.
When you go to get them wait in the car for them to come out.

Do not have any conversations with her about anything anymore.
Best of luck and hang in there, your heart will heal in time.

SKB.

Papa,

DO NOT DISCUSS VISITATION WITH HER TONIGHT. Tell her that you are not available or make something up - you're sick, you've been called by a friend who has an emergency, your computer crashed, whatever...THEN, first thing tomorrow morning, you get on the phone and call your attorney and tell him XW is trying to negotiate visitation via IM AND GET HIM TO DO IT. That is why you hired him. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF.

That's an order!

BB

my opinion is that you are still in DENIAL and have not come to grips with your D...

this is all very normal and no two are alike...sometimes it may take you longer than others...

this has to be handled as a "business deal gone bad"...

think of it in that term and try to remove your emotions...i know, easier said than done...but, IT MUST BE DONE and takes discipline...

tell her to "email" you her arrangemnts, and you will consider them....

this will create some space and give you time to fully consider your options...

DO NOT engage in face to face conversation...IM conversation or and back and forth communication...

keep it short, civil and keep your emotions "cold"...

she is not your friend...

she is not your lover....

she is your "ememy" and does not care about you....

NEVER forget this....

keep it simple, civil, short and to the point...

remember..........its "GAME ON"!!

Thanks again to everyone.

It seems that many are understanding about the sudden nature of my divorce. I was married Feb 17th. It was the day I was coming home after being depolyed. I was excited to be coming home. Excited that I was going to see my kids and my wife that I had been missing so much. I was very much looking forward to getting home and falling asleep in my wife's arms again. That was Feb 17th.

We divorced March 24th. It was a no contest divorce that took only 45 minutes. I signed over physical custody of the kids, but have full legal custody.

That was just 4 months ago. Yes, it has taken me a while to accept that I'm really divorced. I still feel stung at her going out with other men. Still feel it when I think she may not be staying at her own place on weekends I have the kids and might be at another man's house. That's an assumption. I have no idea if she is or not.

But things have progressed. I no longer cry when I see evidence of her dating when guys leave comments on her page about her such as, "Yes, I deffinitely think about you." or she leaves blink.you's that say things like, "treat me like an angel and I'll be your little devil."

I have started to see when she is manipulating. I saw it very evidently when she had fits that I hired a lawyer because she said she was consulting one to draft a visitation arangement. I know that she bluffs and threatens and has fits when I ask for things that I want.

If all she wants me to do is settle for the standard, I have nothing to lose by going to court. One night a week and every other weekend is what she wants. I want more time with the kids. I've had every single weekend since we divorced. This would be nice to continue, but I would also like some time to myself every once in a while on the weekends. If a court granted me this, however, I'd be happy with it. An arangement like MM has would be good.

My lawyer is a trained mediator and is an advocate of the 2,2,5. Mon and Tues with me, Wed, Thurs with her, then alternating weekends. She says that kids adjust well to this vs every other week scenario. Says they learn to associate TV shows or events in their lives with the parent that they're with for that day, i.e. "I watch CSI at mommy's house, I stay at daddy's after baseball practice."

This arangement lets me see the kids very often and allows for both her and I to have a social life as well. She'll never accept it and has stated so.

I would be extremely happy to have this arangement, though.

At a minimum, I would be happy with taking them to dinner twice a week and then having them every other weekend plus a few weeks for vacation time in the summer. That's the minimum. I really believe I'd be granted more than this by a court and don't think I have bad chances.

I don't even have to say anything negative about her in court if it comes to going to that. All I have to do is show that I'm a capable, loving father who is back on his feet after being knocked down. I can show how I have been involved with my children since day one of their lives and can give proof of this in video form. I video taped A LOT while married. This was to send to family back in States and keep the kids in their lives. I never thought I'd use the tapes and video to show how much involvement I've had in their lives.

My daughter's first steps were caught this way. I was there when she took them. Was the first to witness them, and grabbed a camera to tape her. My w taped while I encouraged her to move about the room. I taped me reading a book to her, the way I did every single night. I taped the birth of my boys, taped me going to get them out of their cribs after sleeping all night.

Now I've been taping them playing at my house, sleeping in their rooms, eating, and feeding the ducks at the park. I can actually show the activities I do with my kids. I also have precedent, since I've been watching them every single weekend when I've been here. The only exception was my stay in the hospital and two weekends when I was in California. Outside of that, I've had them every weekend since April.

I think I would have a good chance in court and I'm not afraid of it or her anymore.

Again, Papa...do not try and work this out directly with her.

She doesn't want you to use a lawyer or mediator because she knows that it is easier to manipulate you directly. Please let a professional handle this.

A spouse that would carry on while her husband was at combat tells me everything that I would need to know about her character. She is completely self-centered. She IS the enemy, treat her as such. Take all of the above information, develop your plan of attack and execute. See her for what she is.

I am so terribly sorry that you have been treated this way and that you are going through such heart break.

AMEN

A woman or man that would have an affair on a partner while in combat is weak of character and has no self esteem and needed someone else to stroke it. This woman will never be happy no matter who she is seeing, count on it.

USE your lawyer and use them often. Knowing your situation if you play your hand right and collect information and document you may be able to get full custody over time given her bent towards self destruction.

Thanks to everyone.

I made myself available for a brief moment on messenger, but put on a movie on my computer and started cleaning my house and ironing my clothes for the work week. I worked till about 1030PM and never got a message from her, even though I saw she was logged in. I was planning on being very evasive and general if she did try to contact me.

I made a deposit for CS into the account setup for that. Now that I got a job and got paid I'm caught up in our unofficial CS agreement. Again, I'm not obligated to pay her a dime, but do so because it will only help me and she is taking care of the kids.

MB has grown to be a huge source of support for me. I really do try to heed the advice on this forum. I wish I had done so much earlier when I first found out and everyone was telling me to take a harder line than I did.

She told me the other day that her mother is not happy in her marriage to her father. Her father has no clue. She told me she made her mother promise her she wouldn't leave her father when she was 18. She says that she doesn't want to be like her mother.

I know her parents and never got this impression. I've been tempted to say something to ex FIL but have held back.

Should I? I like the man, despite the fact that they have supported my ex WW through all her craziness. They've done what they could to stay neutral but in the end they take their daughter's side.

Anyways, thanks again to everyone's very kind words of support. I'm going to continue to avoid her and concentrate on getting my house unpacked and decorated for the children.