All of plan A is a huge huge huge exercise in love and giving...

it is NOT about doing for oneself...
it is ALL about doing for the WS....

and it is called plan A because there is a plan B side to it....

it is very difficult and humbling to give to someone causing so much pain....

which is why there needs to be an outlet...and there needs to be one or two others close that can take the brunt of the anger and frustration...

it is on one level a competition with the OP....
has vile and crass and horrible it sounds it is...

and plan A is about not letting an inch of wiggle room in your own behaviors and actions being turned in to a weapon to be used against you and the marriage....


a huge MO of affairs is the OP will act and behave on their best best behavior.....(falsely) (just more deceipt)
so that any emotional fall out by the BS will only feed the sick junkie mind (WS) that the BS is unstable and controlling and blah blah blah.....
as they get their perfect little OP fix....

let agree on facts of an affair...

it takes layering and layering upon layering of rationalization to justify affair behavior...

that WS are deep down good people....
(they dayum well better be cause if they are just crappy crappy people..then why are you wasting any time and energy trying to be married to someone who is crappy)

so WS are basically good people....choosing very very painful actions....

painful for ALL involved
themselves
the BS
the children and family
and even the OP

the burdon of rationalization justifying and living in direct constant dichotomy of what they know is right is an overwhelming painful burdon....

Plan A is about reaching out to the WS in pain..
EVEN as their junkie actions reaks havoc and pain....

as hard as it is, think of the stress a WS lives in trying to be good while the whole time choosing bad again and again...

WS tell lie after lie after lie..till it becomes them and they barely know how to tell the truth anymore....

BS through this need to remind them and show them the honor and glory in being a truthful person..

people who recieve the information upon exposure owe the WS that they care about them too not just place consequences but to help the WS become the person they are meant to be....

otherwise WS will cave and fold...
and figure they are in to deep
and it's so far gone there's no getting it back....

there must be joy in a home in which plan A is going on
there must be engaging
there must be attempt after attempt to reach out to them and show them that the saving of the WS own soul is of even greater priority than saving the marriage.....

bigger picture of what you want for a WS..is a whole person restored to valueing truth...honesty....integrety...

and while I feel bad for BS over and over again....
it is the WS that are truly lost....
truly hanging in the balance of right and wrong....

plan A is an act of sacrifice.....

ARK

I just love your Plan A posts!!

But, of course, I'm in PLAN RECOVERY....

But it's partly because of listening to you while in PLAN A...

Mimi, sighing....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

OK Arkie - I'll Plan A you. Are you feeling the love yet?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now that I am in Plan B I completely UNDERSTAND what you mean by this ark. I couldn't fully see it while in Plan A.

Thank you Ark.

SO..SO..TRUE..what my FWH came to call her "BS" and he doesn't use the abbreviation...

This is what the WS learns during PLAN B..which is why I am now such an advocate for PLAN B...the OP CANNOT POSSIBLY keep this up 24/7...



What's beautiful about this is that my FWH now knows this and appreciates this...remembering the SPECIALNESS of PLAN A...

How can something SO WRONG..become something SO RIGHT?

Ark, I just love reading this..

YOU HAVE REALLY CAPTURED THIS CONCEPT AND HOW IT NEEDS TO WORK...

I pray folks here will really digest this and listen....

Ark,

I embraced Plan A before I even knew what it was. I made some mistakes along the way, as I am not perfect. I must have done a [email]d@mn[/email] good Plan A though, because I feel the world has lifted off of my shoulders in Plan B.

I agree with HopeThisWorks, I can now look at Plan A and what it was, and what it did, and see much more clearly how it works. I'm so grateful to all who have posted here on MB forum, opening my eyes to myself.

Dear Ark--I love this part. So many get lost in saving marriages, they forget about the people (WS AND BS) first. Marriage makes us one, but when the other one is off making himself one with one or more others, the focus should be firsthand on getting you the BS to a place of emotional safety and second--getting the WS to a place where he/she is out of the horrible destructive behavior--for his/her own soul first. It's really thinking of the other first when you plan A. The marriage part will come, but without the above, it can't happen anyway--at least not in a healthy way.




There is elegance in your words and yet a simple basic truth here. Thanks for this post. I especially hope some of the newer posters read this and see that the sacrifice (even when a marriage is not saved like my own) is well worth it and one of the greatest acts of love out there. And amazingly, it leaves you in a place of self-peace when all is said and done.

Ark... I know you are most likely right about this stuff but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept. See, I do not believe that WS are good people at all. I believe that until they earn the title of FWS they are in fact... very, very bad people. They hurt the ones they love the most and they do it with full knowledge of the harm they are causing. Frankly, many of the WS just don't care... they want what they want... all others be damned.
So, while I know it is a concensus around here that WS are basically good people... I do not agree with that one bit. They can become good people again if they choose to do so... but during the time when they are willing to run down their family to get to their OP, they are the personification of evil.
Would you consider a FWW that is having her H unknowingly raise another mans baby a good person? How about a spouse that risks the life of his or her partner by having unprotected sex with another person... all the while keeping their spouse in the dark as to the harm they could be causing. I just don't see it. I see that person as being DEFINED by their choices. It looks, sounds and acts like a duck... it is a duck IMHO. And until such a time as they stop doing what they are doing... IMHO, they are not worthy of the love that their family bestows on them. When they stop...ask for forgiveness and do things to help heal the damage that they have caused... then I say they are a good person and deserve every good thing that comes their way.
This competition thing for the WS is IMHO, a crock. I mean, what in the world is being fought for? A cheating spouse? There is a reason that although a very large percentage of marriages survive an affair that about 75% of those that stayed after the affair consider themselves to be unhappy... and this is years down the road. There are great examples of people on these boards that are happily recovered.... and THEY should be held up as the ideal and the goal for all dealing with infidelity. But it is important to note that more than a few people stay with their cheating spouses through all types of abuse... and they do so for the wrong reason. There are many people right now on these boards that cannot find the strength to stand up and say they will not tolerate the abuse any longer. Many people, that if they were not so afraid of being alone, afraid of losing their comfort zone... could find a much deeper happiness with someone that would treat them well and appreciate what they have.
Plan A has its place. No doubt. I will repeat that there are wonderfully recovered people here to attest to that. But plan kick in the [censored] has its place too. And there are people here to attest to that. Someone mentioned that SH called it "shock therapy" and frankly it is my opinion that sometimes people wait a little too long before pulling the trigger on that type of response with their WS (I would say that WH are a better candidate for this type of response).
Lastly... so that I don't get skewered here, I will repeat one more time... the GOAL is for people to recover their marriages and there are great examples of recovered families on this board.

mkevery

I can not decide for others whether their spouse is a good person...but like I said there better be a grounding of the basics of good qualities..or marriagebuilders is a waste..

also I can not in my work experience deny the POWER of the brain as chemical/electrical functioning unit that wants to survive its ability to totally rationalize and justify behavior...and unable to process those actions differently based on the defense mechanisms it has created to preserve itself....can be very sick and twisted when in the throes of the affair...

and lets say that most people here are usually somewhere after D-day so the facade has been atleast been cracked...

demonization and total negative treatment of a WS will not address any of these issues..and will in my opinion feed the beast.....
it will feed their feelings of entitlement
while feeding their feeding their feelings of total f-up and the creator of ruin

and human nature will direct them to run and flee....
to cling to the known they have created

affairs drag people down deep in to a deep dark hole
the lies and deception become bigger than they ever imagined...

BS have every right to leave them there...but if they choose to help the WS...and that's what plan A is to me..
helping the WS recover their soul....
then a huge burdon befalls on to the BS to take this mess on...

it's not fair
it's not easy
it's not fun

that's why I say over and over and over again plan A without a set plan B date can potentially be damaging..
and each person holds the right to say no not gonna do it...


plan A is a choice...not a demand and it can be treacherously layered with abuse...of insidiously painful stuff...

and you know I have never advocated anyone stay for overt abuse....

I disagree with just finding someone else....especially when kids are involved....

I disagree with entering any type of recovery without full disclosure and boundaries in place....too many false recoveries based on desperation...

but plan A if nothing else says stop all the chaos on the BS side...
keep the lines of communication as open as you can get them.....
mirror honesty...faith...and values...

this is not about saving marriages this is about saving people....
both BS and WS

True Power lies within the beacon of light, not the iron fist.

Magnificent stuff, ark^^.

MEDC:

I'm so thankful ark responded to your post first. She speaks sooo eloquently and knowingly about this. I agree with her one zillionth percent. However, I do have a few thoughts to share.



You will likely be surprised to know that I actually very much agree with you on this. I did not consider my H to be a GOOD PERSON at all when he was a WS. You say a PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL. I considered him to have been under the influence of EVIL FORCES. He actually used to have DEVILISH and DEMONIC looks in his eyes.

But then you say:



and then...



Ark explains this well but I will say it again based on my own personal experience. THE GOAL was to RECOVER my MARRIAGE. In my situation, PLAN KICK BUTT, right after D-DAY would have been GIVE YOUR H TO HER ON A SILVER PLATTER. KICK BUTT was my normal and typical response to ANGER.

PLAN A was SHOCK THERAPY. It blew my H's mind. He tried his best to turn me into that B..tchy, mean wife that he saw me as being..he wanted me to turn into her in order to continue to JUSTIFY his AFFAIR. I maintained MY PLAN A..."MY PLAN" is what Steve Harley called it. He said: "STICK TO YOUR PLAN".....

Another important point....

In PLAN A, the BS shows REAL LOVE..AUTHENTIC LOVE...as opposed to the PHONINESS evidenced by the OP...

The WS does not learn this IMPORTANT FACT until PLAN B...when with the OP 24/7....

So, as ark states, IT'S PLAN A THEN PLAN B....

Sure it would have empowered me to KICK BUTT..but it would not have led to RECOVERY of my MARRIAGE ..it would not have led to the RETURN of my sweet, loving H whom I just spoke with on the phone.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't disagree with you... for you. But there are people out there that do not respect the kind of love shown in Plan A... and they need a plan KIA. There are examples of couples on this board that benefited from an eye opening.... and yes, maybe an ear splitting response to continued abuse from their WS.

Agreed



Agreed. I would never suggest total negative treatment. A wake up call is what I was speaking of (see Amiok). As far as demonization... they bring that on themselves.



I couldn't disagree more with this. IMHO, human nature will bring them back to the place where they are most loved.



I again, will disagree but understand where you are coming from. While the BS can forgive and help bring the person to a healthier place in the relationship, the decision to become a good person again is totally up to the WS. Without doing this, they cannot recover their soul, IMO.



And affair is overt abuse. So, competing with the OP assumes an A still exists and IMO, the abuse still exists.


I disagree emphatically. Plan A results in many... not all people having their stress racheted up to the point where they need ad's. Plan B helps lower the stress level for sure... but I don't see it happening much in plan A.



Agreed to a point. Again, I will go back to 75% of people that have stayed after an affair consider themselves unhappy. The truly recovered and happy, like Mimi... while certainly the ideal that should be strived for... are not the norm. People come on this site years after an affair and still deal with the demons visited upon them by their WS. I read it here everyday. Success stories are wonderful and there are many... but there is at least an equal number of people living in unhappiness and going through the motions in order to keep together a marriage that was long ago destroyed by their WS.


from divorecepeers.com

Of those couples who remain married despite an affair, what percentage later describe the marriage as unhappy or empty?

&#9642; 78%

Do have some statistics to back this up OR is this your opinion?

I posted one... they are available on numerous sites on the internet... do a web search. Most wind up being in the 75% range. I just use the 50% mark for comparison sake. The numbers I see most often are in the 75% unhappy range.

Thank you for your post, Ark.

...I guess this is the reason why I often say that, in spite of all the pain, I would rather be a BS than a WS....

...I am in PLAN B for my own protection and to minimize the damage...but knowing that WS chose to remain a WS remains a great source of pain for me... for that exact reason.... WS has chosen 'turmoil' and 'deceit' and is paying the 'biggest' price.... he is being his 'worst' enemy right now.... and it is difficult to see someone you love so much hurt so badly, and that the only way to help him and myself and our family is to put a 'distance' between us....

...that is what I find really hard about PLAN B!

MEDC:

But I wonder if those folks would have remained unhappy if they used the MB's approach..

After PLAN A and PLAN B, comes commitment to use of the RULES OF RECOVERY...

Mimi... do you read a lot of the posts here. There are many people that are years out and are still unhappy... and these are the people that stay here.... how about those that just gave up and moved on. I would venture a guess that if you looked at the stats for couples that have gone through affairs that the BS that moved on after an affair are significantly happier than those that stayed married to the WS or FWS. I will say once again that I think it is the goal to save the marriage if possible.... that is what the Harleys give people a good shot at doing... but it is by no means a guarantee that happiness will find a couple just because they used this program. It just increses their odds... from being lousy to at best break even. I would venture a guess that if Dr. H were able to save 50% of marriages and have the couple be happy after a few years, he would consider that a great success. I would.

OK, MEDC.. but I'm wondering, what is your point?

We don't want to discourage folks from using the MB APPROACH, do we?

"Give up..there's a good chance you won't have a happy marriage anyways..."

That's not the mesage that you are trying to convey..is it?

mkeveryday....

I can speak of marriage builder principles here since this is marriage builders..

there are a million different ways to deal with an affair partner...

and each one is a choice...

I happen to believe out of most of the road maps out there for those that want to attempt recovery....

that these principles make the most sense....
these priniples offer the most grounding....

if you don't think that... that is fine....

there are no garuntees....

I also believe that when one truly plan A's with NO EXPECTATIONS of ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING in return...

that it free the BS from chaos.....

it is very empowering to learn to give of oneself with NO expectations of return...

but it is only for a short time period for it can be wearying to the soul....

sounds to me like 75% that are unhappy post affair..should divorce..for they aren't recovered...why linger in a marriage like that?

but remember that 75% statistic offers no insite in to what the exact behaviors are that lead to that unhappiness and how much of that is being addressed and worked...
how much is post and pre affair behaviors etc...

I'd say a high percentage of people (not the ones here) but those not following a plan...
most likely settle
and move past without dealing with the issues.....
by ignoring and never bringing it up again...

are and would be unhappy....

make no mistake plan A has lots of boundaries and protection plans....
available for use...

BS can kick the perverbial [censored] out of a WS anytime they want....
but to me that's chaos...
I much prefer direct eye contact...a soft tone....and drop dead serious words....with great impact...

ARK

Ark...
you do make very good sense.

It also frees the children from the chaos.

It is also an opportunity for tremendous self growth for the BS.

And it shows the children a better way to deal with things.

Mimi... if you are going to ask ridiculous questions... at least pretend to read what I wrote first.

Did you not see where I wrote the goal and ideal is to save the M?
Did you not see where I wrote that the Harley's give a person a chance to recover?
Of course you did... you just like to get out your little soundbites and ignoring parts of the post make that easier for you to do.

Ok, MEDC.

This is when we part company. I was going to try to have a conversation with you. I couldn't read past this sentence.

Having been a BS, for whatever reason, I can't bear folks talking to me in this manner and I don't continue in conversations with them.

IMO, you are being RUDE AND DISRESPECTFUL of me by making this statement...

I didn't mean you a bit of harm by the question that I asked and was making a great effort to be FRIENDLY with you...

I know. You have every right to speak in the manner that you choose. I agree. I have every right not to continue with this conversation.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

bye.

From Penalty Kill

I was brought up by a PhD statistician - statistics were dinner table discussion. I took statistics courses in college (you would think I had enough, but no!). I am extremely skeptical when people quote statistics because I know how easily the numbers can be manipulated. (Not just you in this case, MEDC, I'm speaking generally here)

In the case of the 78% statistic, I notice that the source is "Anthony DeLorenzo, author of 28 Tell-Tale Signs of a Cheating Spouse and president of Infidelity.com".

I looked up the book and the website. Both appear to be very much geared toward divorce, rather than recovery, at least that was my impression. (The website is under construction, but one of the advertisers is a Family lawyer. And the site gives me the impression of offering many more tools to "move on" than to preserve a marriage, based upon the drop down menus)

So I wonder. If 78% of the people surveyed are so unhappy, why are they still in the marriage? And who are they? BS? WS? Both? What are their stories? How long since Dday? What are they doing to make their lives better?

Inquiring minds want to know. It is my impression from reading these boards that the experience of infidelity does differ. There are some WS who drop the OP immediately upon discovery, and there are those who continue the A. There are those who flaunt it, or break contact repeatedly. There are those who have one A and those who have several. There are BS who take a hard line and BS who do a stellar plan A. There are BS who feel "recovered" after a year and those who feel they need more time. There are so many factors that I cannot accept a broad statistic like the 78%. It's just not enough information - for me at least.

YMMV.

I wondered the same thing... I found some "answers" on several different sites (one being AARP of all places!!!) that suggest that about 60% of men put off divorce for their kids sake... about 40% of women cite this as the reason they have not divorced after an A.

I don't see the website referenced the same way that you do... but certainly understand your point. The same could be said for this site which has an incentive for people to work on their M's and appear happy while doing so (it sells books and counseling time). I guess every stat will be scrutinized... rightfully so. I just look at it more from an experience perspective... what have I read here... what have I seen in my life... and use the stats as an adjunct to those things.

beleive me that I struggle also with these issues...

the pain
the destruction
the gut wrenching visceral response when reading here...

many many many times you think...

F THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but I keep looking for the humility...

that we all fail....(but I don't buy it was a mistake...) mistakes aren't direct actions.....)

but we are human...

so I try to find the humankind....in each story....

some never had it to begin with...and people should cut their losses....

some to me are souls hanging in the balance...between heaven and litterally in my opinion [email]he@@[/email]

some are cruel and evil personified...in their terroristic acts....
they can be lost forever..or a long long time..

woe to them....

ARK

I may not agree with all you say Ark... but your sincerity and heart come shining through in your words.

Thanks.

A few thoughts I wanted to put out there:

1. Perhaps Marriage isn't supposed to make us happy but bring us closer to God. 75% ain't a bad number anyway... 50% of first marriages end in divorce regardless. I too, believe MB likely has better odds.

2. Plan Kick Butt IS eventually God's plan for the unrepentent WS. In the same line, I personally believe the devil gets some satisfaction over getting the BS to apply plan Kick Butt. It is tempting. A married couple IS one flesh...the demons influencing the wayward are also influencing or tempting the betrayed spouse also...it makes sense...they have access. What would Jesus do???

3. If Plan A is done right there is LESS chaos. The AD's are to be used by the BS's as they process the shock and pain until they get to a point where they can effectively Plan A then Plan B. If and when you truly "accept uncertainty" the storm can become pretty calm. You can move to a place where you have peace with your own life, accept the bad as part of your life experience and move on with or without your spouse knowing you did all you could to live up to your vows. Plan A is the ultimate of Act, Don't React.

4. I still firmly agree with Dr. Harley...we, as humans, are ALL susceptable and capable of being wayard given the right circumstances.

5. If Plan Kick Butt fails...will the BS continue on after the divorce with more or less (regret, self-esteem, integrity, etc) in comparison with Plan A, then B????

6. Affairs are addictions...If you discovered your spouse had a cocaine or even a prescription drug problem would your initial inclination be plan kick butt?


Mr. Wondering

In one sense statistics regarding affair recovery are meaningless, since there are so many variables to be considered on a case by case basis.

Most of us seek statistical support as a means of hope: "What are the odds that I can save my marriage?"

It seems clear to me that most betrayed spouses want to save their marriages.

Plan A makes sense, but obviously it doesn't always initiate recovery no matter how well it's implemented.

In that event it's not a complete waste of time since it might be considered good practice for your next relationship

Mr. W:

In case you just might want to know, I agree with every single word that you said..a ZILLIONTH PERCENT!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Besides most BS's aren't capable or prepared to do Plan Kick Butt...it's only in hindsight...especially by those that ended up divorced that this "Plan" is seen as being the more desirable or at least competitive alternative. The divorced posters often believe that it would have worked or not worked but at least it would have been a quicker resolution. However, the BS's that arrive here have for the most part sought out a different plan. Plan Kick Butt is instinctive. It's really not a plan but a reaction. It can work but for the people that show up here I believe the MB approach is better.

Mr. W

Perhaps Marriage isn't supposed to make us happy

I love this...

I have three kidlets...

I don't wish for their happiness when they grow up..

I wish for them to be good honest people...
kind
noble....

happiness is no garuntee...it's not even really an action...

but to be good people....
to know their own value as they value others...
and to act accordingly...
that's what I wish for my kids....

no garuntees....
just keep at it like dripping water on a stone...

ARK

Pittman says "marriage isn't supposed to make you happy, it's supposed to make you married."

He isn't just trying to amuse us with this, he means it.

You better be a happy person before you actually get married, otherwise the joy you experience in the beginning is likely to fade away quite rapidly later.

I don't think plan "kick butt" is instinctive. I think collapse and breakdown are more instinctive when it comes to being assaulted by those you love most. I think that Plan A has its place...but think that when it is not working... some spouses need a swift kick in the rump to get them going... one way or another.
And I would handle an addiction to drugs exactly the same way. Not everyone responds to the "nice" approach. And I too believe the MB approach is better... in most cases.... not all.

In my opinion, this is the road to happiness.

Marriage isn't supposed to make you happy because happiness comes from within.

Agreed. But being married to a person that abuses your trust can certainly make you unhappy.

Not everyone believes in God. I disagree about 75% not being a bad number.... but see your point.


Not always.



Not a chance in my opinion. Some of us would NEVER do that to one we love. NEVER. Harley has no proof of this... this is a theory. I know I would NEVER do this. I know some others that feel the same way. And I mean NEVER.

I have not, nor do I advocate plan KB as the intitial response... never said it, never will.... don't think it is the right course.... so it is hard to address the rest of your post since I have not advocated that.

That is exactly when Plan B comes in, and relatively quickly too.

Hey Hiker! Haven't seen your thread coming up lately. Good to see you!

I was told as was my EXH during pre-marital counseling that marriage is 100/100, not 50/50. And I fully approached my marriage like that. Despite the fact that I am divorced now, I am overall proud of how I acted in marriage and in my marriage post-affair. Plan Kick in the A was not instinctual for me--quite the opposite. Maybe it was guided by Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, as I read that right around the time my WH left.

Happiness is just a word. It is a fleeting feeling that I feel throughout the day. Joy is something more I aim for. THat Joy I feel knowing I am loved by God. THat joy I feel knowing I am going to be taken care of by a God who has got my back. WH first left sighting he didn't feel happy anymore and I wasn't affectionate enough. Since when did one person's happiness dictate anything? Commitment, a covenant of marriage, means more to me than happiness.

During my plan-a period (WH moved out before I even knew of the affair--for perspective) I was not thinking of anyone's happiness. I was thinking of how horrible it must be for WH to be living in such pain and sin. How horrible it would be for him to have to forever live with breaking up his family. SO I chose to continue to treat him with love and respect, to show him how Christ loves us, more than to save my marriage. I truly wept for the condition of his heart and soul. I loved him and did not want to see him live like this.

The marriage part would come later. It couldn't be fixed if he didn't get himself fixed first. He didn't. ANd is still a ws, though now my XH. All his doing. I still pray for him, but have come to realize that he will have to go through this. He created the mess, he will have to live it now. And I would rather be me anyday than him. And I feel released now. Like I did my part as a Christian and as a wife.

Someone told me once that apart from God we are capable of amything. How fitting.

Plan A is not a doormat, and so many let themselves be one during plan A. Plan A is being a strong person. Turning the other cheek, but not closing your mouth and not letting your voice be heard. Plan A was meant to have boundaried as well.

MB plan did not save my marriage. But I can 100% say honestly that it was a weapon God gave me to get through this personally.

I used to say and BELIEVE the same thing.



~ Marsh

Uber-feminist writer Fay Weldon has recently published a book entitled 'What Makes Women Happy'.

The author of 'Life and Loves of a She-Devil', in which a terrible revenge is exacted upon an unfaithful husband and his mistress, has now concluded that the path to true happiness, for women at least, is to be good.

I haven't read it yet, but I intend to.

Alph.

27 and such wisdom. You are indeed a child of God. Your next husband (should you choose to remarry some day) will be a very blessed man.

Those words will never come from me. I know this will never happen.... can never happen in my life. I will not disrespect myself or the people I love in that way... can't and won't do it. It doesn't make me any better.... just different.

Weaver,

Thanks. Not to thread jack, but how are things?

MEDC,

I agree that Plan A is not always the appropriate response to discovery, though if you can do it, I can't see that it hurts anything if done before the BS resentment builds up to the danger point.

Glad to see you bring up some thought-provoking ideas though!

Agreed... so long as the BS can handle it. As Dr. Phil says... do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

And thanks.

Why is it important for you to believe this?


~ Marsh

I not only believe it... I know it to be fact.

And it is not important for me to believe this... I was responding to something brought up concerning Dr. H's view.

I guess the more obvious question is... why is it important for you to question this?

Percentage of "very happy" first marriages (self-described) in the United States

&#9642; 54% in 1976

&#9642; 38% in 1996


In my estimation, 38% versus 25% when you add in infidelity is not that bad. I know the questions differ but I think the numbers above do say a lot.

I glean that from 1976 to 1996, the pursuit of "happiness" as a goal has resulted in this huge statistical anomoly.


I've seen that site before and some of the statistics I do get a kick out of.

Like

Why did your marriage end:

Spouse had affair 22%
I had an affair 5%

Of course, the divorce wayward is NOT going to blame themselves so thus all the other reason percentages are skewd by the waywards that lied when answering this question.

OR

Would you ever cheat on your spouse:

Yes 5%
No 95%

Naive.

MEDC...you and I will VERY LIKELY never be wayward spouses...we've experienced it and we've read about it and we both fully understand it. We've made a CHOICE not to ever be wayward. Years ago...I know that I was just as susceptible to waywardness as my wife. I didn't know much about and I thought we were above it somehow...but I never CHOOSE specifically to protect myself from potential waywardness. I believe that all humans are capable of it...including you, MEDC. The worst part about it IMO is, YOU and I would have been the worst kind of waywards. We are both quite black and white, hard headed and opinionated. We would have NOT QUESTIONED our very own and valued rationalizations and justifications. Point being...today, I am thankful that my wife betrayed my ill-advised complete trust in her BEFORE I inadvertently and sinfully did it to her ill-advised and complete trust in me (though I can tell you Mrs. W would have NEVER allowed me to email, text and phone an old high school girlfriend like I did).

Mr. Wondering

We will need to disagree about this... since I cannot prove my point. But I know I am not capable of this. I think there are a lot of people here that are afraid to say that they aren't capable of that... they don't want to come across as being better than a FWS. I feel it is just a different make up. It is just not in my make up to have an affair. If I had any contact with an old girlfriend... my current partner would be the first to know. I am not tempted sexually by others when I am in a relationship... nor do I feel that I need to look elsewhere to have my needs met. I have maintained relationships with female friends for 20+ years and never have crossed a line with them.

Again, we will need to agree to disagree.

What a fascinating thread! Ark, you are amazing. Even when I don't agree with you 100%... I love reading you...

Having been cheated on numerous times by my ex-H, one would think I would never have cheated, either. And I didn't... for 18 years... and then I did. What does that say?

Over the seven years I've hung around this joint (MB)... I've come to the conclusion that some people will never cheat. Some never have and die never having cheated. I guess that's obvious since we all know people who haven't cheated. I thought I was one of them. I wasn't. I have to live with that now.

Though, I still believe one needs to be ever-on-guard, even if you think you'd "never"... and here's why. Infidelity is COVERT, even at its inception. Unless we're dealing with a sexual addiction and/or porn, the typical emotional affair that leads to physical intimacy begins in the smallest of ways. And it DISGUSTS me how scripted it seems, and how I didn't notice it when it happened to me. A work-email friendship, at first. Answering questions about my life... leading to more probing, personal questions, which seemed okay because we were "friends"... leading to the inevitable, "We're in our 40's. Are we happy?"... and by then somehow believing that "happiness" was the goal. By then, I was hooked. A choice? Sure, it is. But I have to tell you that it "felt" like I was sucked into something that had an energy all its own. And from all that we've read about addictions, if you subscribe to the "affair = addiction" theory, it did.

Blech. Enough about my past. Let me tell you that NOW, I don't ever, ever even talk to men about my marriage or my personal life. I'm friendly, but not to the point of email or chatty conversations. Sheesh and dang, I wear a SHIELD, and it's my wedding ring. I talk about my H all the time, most around my job know him (because he used to work in this office) and I have his picture at my desk. I am married and not interested -- it is clear.

But all that said... I will tell you that my H and I, both in second marriages, divorced from people who cheated on us, have made a vow -- cheat on me and it's over. Divorce. Period. No questions asked. End of story.

So in that way, I agree with MEDC's thoughts.

I just thought I'd throw my thoughts, such as they were, into the mix for your consideration.

Carry on this fabulous thread!

Ark really captures my experience..this really said it for me:



I come to this site to do my part in "saving souls"....

Because if anyone was ever lost, it was my H...

I still to this day say, "If he can have an affair, ANYONE can"...

He WAS a GOOD MAN..I say WAS because I still don't think he's the person that he used to be..he's been to the gates of HE//..and I often feel sad for him in terms of his brokenness and what he has loss..

On the other hand, after coming here so often lately, I more and more highly ADMIRE and RESPECT him and often tell him so..given how far he has come..given how hard he is working to RESTORE and to RECOVER himself...

My H was one of the pillars of this community. He would give you the shirt off of his back and has given folks shirts off of his back. He was GOOD as GOLD to me and others....I took him for granted. He turned his back on that life and ended up living in the ghetto with a woman who clearly did not know GOD..I pray for her salvation.... He was DEMONIZED...Maybe too much information...

But I personally get troubled...am I to believe that my H is sooo, sooo SPECIAL? Am I too believe that others can't make it like we have? Really, I find that to be depressing..because I want others to know the HAPPINESS that we now share...and the HOPE for the future.

I know that there may not be many...but I don't want folks to GIVE UP HOPE....

I don't want to BELIEVE that we are SOO, SOO, SPECIAL....

That is why I was asking that question to MEDC....What is your point?..I was really trying to get it...

I'm not sure what a SOUNDBITE is..but if this is one....so be it....

You know it's interesting, I never had friendships with married men, engaged men, or even men in steady relationships. As a bartender I only looked at the girlfriend or wife. At the job I have now, I never travelled with MM on business and refused to have even a casual friendship.

And still I ended up with a married man. A con artist and a liar.

I didn' know he was married, not for eight months (from another state but working in mine).

I went on vacation with his daughter, met his mother and nobody told me he was married.

Never say never.

I believe with all my heart I am incapable of lying though. I don' believe I could lie to someone. And I hope that I am never proven wrong.

Really enjoyed reading through this thread. There is so much insight to be found in all these words.

I'm still a newbie, but have read a lot. I do think that MB principles are sound, and that a BS who wants to save the marriage should intially work at Plan A if given the chance and if the BS has the fortitude to do so. I really wish that I was given the chance to do more of a Plan A. I did to the extent that I could, but rectifying my early mistakes of moving out of my house and telling WW that I would not expose to OMW angered WW so much that she moved out, more or less cut off contact with me, and found a new guy to sleep with when her affair fell flat on its face.

Now our marriage has quickly progressed down the path of divorce. My brain tells me it is for the best, my heart tells me otherwise. My heart tells me this becasue my wife is a good person; a good person with a lot of demons to deal with.

When looking back, an earlier poster hit the nail on the head with respect to my marriage. My WW has so many issues and inner demons that she had before we even met and still had when we married that she was just not a happy person. It is hard, but rationally I know that our marriage was not the result of her unhappiness. That was there to begin with. She will never be happy until she deals with those demons and is happy with herself as a person. There wouldn't be any chance for our marriage until she makes the decision to stand up to those problems instead of running from them or finding the next addiction to cover them up.

I truly feel sorry for my WW. As Ark had alluded to, she is a lost soul. She herself on D-day stated that she knows that she is going to he11. I can't imagine what it must be like for her. I can't imagine the inner pain and turmoil that she is going through. Despite the amount of pain that she has caused me, I will always have a place for her in my heart and really do hope that one day she can address her problems and find happiness.

I have taken this slap in the face to start addressing some of my deficiencies. Most importantly, my relationship with my God. Although I have never lost that relationship, I was taking it for granted. I was taking a lot in life for granted.

Scotty

I think this is a very important point.

There is a difference between saying/believing,"I will never choose to have an A, and will do what ever I can to protect myself from having one." And saying/believing, I do not have it IN me to have an A."

One is humble and one is not.

One will enable you to demonstrate compassion to WS and one will not.

~ Marsh

To those on this thread who have been posting to in-pain, too - thanks. If you haven't been, she can use lots o encouragement.

Ark, I so appreciate you doing this thread on Plan A. I never had to do it to break up the A, so I did not do the Plan A that is talked about on MB.

I really appreciate all of you helping her.

This is an excellent point. I love this!

Scotty,

That you are using this to become a better person, to use it for growth...speaks volumes about you. Good for you, I am so impressed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm with you MEDC. I think Harley suggests that we're all *capable* of having an A. But that does not mean that, when it comes to making that choice of whether or not to step over the line, all of us will make the choice to step over.

I've been put in at least one situation where I could have chosen to have an A without my W's knowledge. The temptation was there, the situation would have allowed me to get away with it. I CHOSE not to do so, for various reasons, including:

1. My personal integrity is THAT important to me.
2. The thought of causing someone so close to me such deep hurt by indulging in an A.
2. I knew that there is no way I could look my W straight in the eye and lie to her for months, if not years, to hide my actions.

I think the term I've heard Dr. Harley use is that we are all "wired" to have affairs. Maybe he means that biologically speaking, we are genetically predisposed to propagate the species through reproduction.

All of us, strictly speaking, are capable of having an affair unless we are somehow emotionally or physically handicapped in some way that would absolutely prevent us from doing so. Whether all of us would actually engage in such activity given the opportunity I think is questionable.

Some would argue that a human being is capable of engaging in just about any kind of behavior under the right conditions. If you believe that, then the question of whether any one person is likely to engage in an affair is dependent on a certain threshold of conditions.

Clearly, many cheaters have a very low threshold at which they will engage in infidelity.

NB,


Even from my BS point of view, my wife's affair and the events that followed seem somehow "fated." By that I mean it seems as though everything about it is following a predictable path to the destruction of our marriage, and that nothing I do can stop it.

This has obviously struck a nerve with you. I have compassion for a WS that wants and takes actions to change. I do not have comapssion for those that choose to continue down that path... and it is a choice. A sad choice... but a choice nonetheless.
Again... for some reason you seem to be bothered that I am saying it is not IN me to do that. Why, I don't know.
I am humble in that God has allowed me to not be tempted by drugs, alcohol, homosexuality...infidelity... there by the grace of God go I. I do not fight those demons.... I feel bad for those that do.... but I am not amongst that crowd.
Now, I would love not to have to battle other issues that some people do not have to deal with... but they are my crosses to bear. I do find compassion from others that are not similarly afflicted.
It is just when it comes to issues of character I have seem to have a firm setting on my moral compass. Others may not always agree with me... but I know what is right for me and live accordingly... trying to have as little regret as possible. It has been said by my friends that my tombstone should one day read... "Do the right thing." It's one of my favorite sayings.

Probably not in the way you think.

Choosing to believe I'd never have an A had consquences for me.

~ Marsh

I would add only this - if one's version of plan A demands the utter surrender of one's dignity, it may be less effective. WS need to be reminded of the virtues of the BS. A willingness to accept humiliation or ignobilty are rarely considered to be virtues IMO.

BS, show the BEST of onesself, including one's nobility, not just servitude.

Statistically speaking...according to ONE study.

In 5 years, unhappily marred persons that stuck it out are more likely to be happy than unhappy and divorced persons...by a wide margin.

I've posted this before but instead of posting it I'll just post the link for those interested in the whole study.

LINK TO AMERICAN VALUES STUDY ON DIVORCE AND HAPPINESS

W

If you say so. I say that having the A is what caused you consequences.... not the belief that you couldn't do it. Perhaps one of the reasons that I KNOW it could never happen to me is that I refuse to put myself into certain situations. I don't need to guard against them... just like I don't need to swear off alcohol. I am in control of what I do and how I respond to those things. I saw firsthand (as a child) the damage that can be done as a result of an A... and took that knowledge with me into my relationships. I would rather be cheated on than be the cheater. I can look at myself in the mirror each day without worry. One of the things that I have a hard time understanding about WS's is not that they screwed around... I get that... it is how they are able to look at their family and lie. I just don't get it... never will.

I can even understand the lying . . . after all, they're just trying to keep the affair going without upsetting the family applecart. What I can't understand is why they are willing to destroy the family to maintain the affair.

No. They each had separate consequences.

~ Marsh

Okay, I am glad you are in a different place now.
I wish you nothing but luck and God's grace.

Yes, so am I.



Thanks.

Right back at you.


~ Marsh

Hiker:

I might be wrong but I get the impression that you are an intellectualizer like me. I look for a book or an article to deal with my dilemmas...and often what I learn and read are comforting if not helpful.

However, regarding my H's affair, it helped me to ACCEPT that I WAS NOT GOING TO COMPREHEND what he was doing.

That was the case while I was in the midst of it.

Now I understand a lot about OUR SITUATION clearly.

But there was NO COMPREHENDING my H WALKING AWAY FROM AND DESTROYING HIS WHOLE LIFE FOR AN ALIEN WOMAN CREATURE...

Again quoting Steve Harley: "That's the nature of an AFFAIR..it is SELF-DESTRUCTIVE like any other ADDICTION...."

You can't comprehend craziness.

I'm sure your H can't comprehend what he did either.

A's are evil and mind altering insanity trips.


~ Marsh

Yep, Marsh.

When I ask my H, "How could you have done this or that?"..He often responds: "I WAS CRAZY"....with that sad, sad look in his eyes...

I talked to SH about this a little while ago. We were talking about LB's, dishonesty, specifically. I said that prior to this, I believed, and so did my WH, and EVERYONE else who knew him, that he was **incapable** of dishonesty. Really, I thought his head would explode if he ever told a lie. And I also knew that I knew that I knew that he was ***not capable*** of infidelity. That his character and integrity and moral code were so strong that there was no way I'd ever have to worry about that from him.

I asked SH how in the world I reconcile that with where we are now.

He said that the MAJORITY of WS's that he works with are exactly that kind of person. Totally honorable and honest and strictly adhering to their moral code. And they, and everyone around them, believe that of all the people in the world, THIS person would never be CAPABLE of being wayward. He mentioned pastors and counselors and cops (my WH is a cop) as examples.

Steve said that that reliance on their integrity and ethics and code are exactly what gets them in trouble. Because they (and everyone around them) belive that there is no way they would ever fall into this problem (or whatever problem it is), they don't take precautions against it. They don't have a plan or strategy in place to maintain that ethical code, because they don't think they need one. So then when things happen that are outside of the norm, the STB-WS thinks "this is no big deal, I can handle this, I'm above this. This won't be a temptation..."

Then the next time, the temptation goes a little further, and the STB-WS still thinks they are above it, it's not affecting them.

And it keeps going a little further at a time, until the person who used to be incapable of having an A suddenly finds that the character and integrity that they thought they had has eroded, bit by bit, and without that to rely on anymore, they have no plan to protect themselves from falling into the hole that they've dug.

(it reminds me of those "I'm just going to try meth this one time .... I'll never be like THAT guy" commercials)

Kind of a long way of agreeing with Marsh on this .... relying on your outstanding character and just knowing that you will never have an affair will not protect you from it given the right circumstances. It's having a plan in place to protect you from ever being in the wrong situations, or from making the decisions that lead up to an affair -- I think that's the only way to prevent them.

Probably why so many people say "I thought it could never happen to me". I'm sure that most everyone who gets married does it with the **intention** of staying faithful. But how many start a mariage with a plan for preventing unfaithfulness?

We sure didn't. We didn't think that we'd ever have to worry about it.

-AmI.

I know that look.

I know how that look feels.

*shudders*

~ Marsh

OMG, Ami....THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS!!

This explains my H EXACTLY...

Mimi..printing this out right this minute...

So this is why my H is sooo committed to his boundaries, now?

mimi,

Yes, I do tend to analyze something to death. It's a drive to understand it all. In this case not understanding causes me some fear.

AmIok,

Steve's explanation makes sense to me. I certainly thought my wife incapable of infidelity because I have always thought of her as a pillar of moral strength when it came to family (everyone else did too). And I mistakenly believed her love for me was stronger than any possible attraction to a third party.

I was wrong.

That mistake is going to cost me my marriage.

Exactly!

~ Marsh

I am less dismayed at the whether I could fall into an affair or not (don't think I will but think I could) than I am about once some of these people are in an affair it's like pulling teeth to get them to end it. I can tell you that our M was good, not perfect, but good if not very good.
If I had succombed to an affair and was told that I was ruining my children's lives, going to lose my spouse, ruin my reputation, trash my soul, and hurt everyone and everything around me by CONTINUING in this affair that would have been enough for me. Sadly, it isn't for a great many.

Yes, but that is healthy thinking H&P speaking....

You must put on the insanity cap and try to choose to end an A while your mind is in an altered state.

I wonder if shock treatments would help WS...

~ Marsh

hopeandpray,

My sentiments exactly. We had a good marriage by any yardstick. If you can believe what my wife said and wrote to me before the affair began, she thought so too.

Well, I believed her.

It is beyond my comprehension that I could sacrifice my family to continue an affair with any other woman. My son's well-being is paramount to me; my wife was my dream girl.

Marsh,

Thanks for the comments. I really don't I have the capacity to be that unhealthy. think I could be short term stupid but not once I saw what I was going to lose.

True Hiker. This is true....

AND as Marsh says: An insane person does not have the capacity to THINK LOGICALLY.

When I came to ACCEPT this, I realized that my WH was like a DRUG-CRAZED ADDICT...waiting to get his next fix...

I eventually came to know when he was about to see or talk to her..He would act GIDDY...

YUCK.....

It's the willingness, er, the NEED, er, the COMPULTION, er, the REQUIREMENT, solely due to the addiction...to be together despite the cost that often, I believe, makes them FEEL even more justified in following through with it. Most all of us heard or desperately stated ..."BUTT, I HAVE to do this". It's just such the romantic gesture to give everything up for their interloper.

After all...they are ASSoulmates.

Mr. Wondering

You heard this, too ????

Soo..scripted...

Good response Mr. W...

Of topic:

I so love when my DD says:

"But....Daddy, why can't we buy this or that or do this or that"

My standard response: "Did you just call me Butt Daddy"

W

LMAO!!!!

I am so stealing this from you!!!!

~ Marsh

Hey Ark..I don't know if you have read my any of my posts, but I was wondering, when you have a chance, can you read it and please give me any other advice on what I need to do? I am fearful, that when my WH gets home from overseas, that I am going to lose all emotion, forget what I want to say, and then regret not saying those things after he leaves. Any and all advice would be so appreciated. Thank you-LoveGod

bump

Couldn't agree with you more Mimi!!! My FWH expected me to do a plan KIA, he didn't think I would care or love him enough to fight for our M. Plan KIA would have fed his justifications and I could have kissed my M goodbye. I didn't find MB until almost 4 months after d-day but luckily I had read divorce busting pretty quickly afterwards and used the 180's which for me mirrored alot of plan A actions. Once I found MB I kicked it up even more and I can honestly say that plan A followed by a very perfectly timed but surprising plan B (FWH never saw it comin!!!) literally saved my M.

I did such a great plan A followed by the sneak attack of plan B that in its own way it was plan KIA. And to me it made much more of an impact than kicking a$$ from the get go.

OK, back to reading the rest of this thread... just wanted to back up the importance of plan A. Even now in recovery plan A helps me through the difficult moments when I'm feeling not so loving towards my FWH.

lots of good stuff in this post for you newbies...

hard wrought though by those that have lived it...

blessings come in many many different circumstances...

though I will never embrace the thought that everything happens for a reason......

some things just suck soooo bad they are unimaginable...

ARKIE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think part of the reason that my sitch has gone on for so long is that I didnt' find MB until after our first year in infidelity land, THEN I started Plan A, Then plan B, so now we are ongoing almost two years now in infidel limbo-land.

Once I did begin to work the plans, It did have some return, but the narcotic can be strong. That's when Plan B comes in, and the WS is left with the OP, with none of the benefits of the BS there to comfort them. This is hopefully, when they hit bottom, or as princessmeggy has put it, God breaks them. The plans DO work.

I still shake my head thinking this couldn't possibly be happening, but I have a plan, so I'm okay...

bumping this cause there's a lot of good stuff in it...
AND
I can't find my plan A get grounded here post...

I hate this search engine...
I never ever find a n y t h i n g...

ARK