This was on this weeks Marriage Builders Q&A newsletter that comes out via email [to get on the list, go to the home page here and sign up for the newsletter] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/index.html

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Funny that you posted that...I read that this morning and have been thinking about it ever since.
it is an issue in my marriage....to this day, I do not know for sure if H had an affair or not....and he still gets angry and defensive and shuts down when I ask for details about his IB on business trips etc.

I struggle w/ it....I don't see how we will ever get recovery off the ground if we are not able to discuss this issue.

[b]I sooooooooooooo agree with the above sentence I bolded.

It makes me [color:"red"]nutz [/color]to read posts here on MB that pretend to psychoanalyze each other's childhood issues .....

just STOP already

what is needed is a PLAN of action .... not volumes of posts that are nothing more than self-absorbed belly-button-gazing

sheesh!

just STOP already

what is needed is a PLAN of action .... not volumes of posts that are nothing more than self-absorbed belly-button-gazing
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Hi Pep,

That where we got stuck......H discovered he had childhood issues in IC and we have not moved forward w/ a 'marriage building' plan since....I keep waiting for him to get comfortable enough to be open with me.
it is starting to drive me batty.

AMEN!!

Staying stuck in the past keeps him from focusing on the PRESENT. And he will NEVER be "comfortable" telling you the truth about his affair. That is not realistic. What person would EVER feel "comfortable" about that?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Maybe a sociopath, but not a person with an active conscience.

Ask him to do what is RIGHT for your marriage, not what is "comfortable."

Have you shown him Joseph's letter? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2739000

This explains my recent NIGHTMARE..simple but complicated..A REFLECTION OF THE SUFFERING..YES!!

Mel,

Great post.
I remember showing my FWS Joseph's letter, and it helping him to open up and get that elephant out of the room. That letter was a very important part of our recovery.

I think he's STILL be avoiding giving the info I needed at the time if I hadn't found that letter on MB.

Thanks again Mel!!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thank for this post ML. It helps us in recovery to stay on the right path.

You are a great source of info and support here on MB. I know we haven't chatted much, but I am always interested in your guidance on my or W2S's thread.

Thanks again!

Have you shown him Joseph's letter?
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I tried to.
timing wasn't good.
Right now he is in IC and we are in MC and I see him as IC once in awhile....I have made the MC aware that I want/NEED a plan and I need to know the whole truth about his IB ( NOT the feelings behind WHY he did what he did)I think MC understands (H does not) but I know I will have to push the issue because we get off track so easily.

H is dealing w/ childhood trauma
he has addictive tendencies.....such as lying and covering up...not just sex issues but even about drinking and smoking etc......but, IC says he is not an alcoholic.... these issues stem from the fact that he is an adult child of alcoholics and he needs to get healthy and feel better about himself before he will be able to address his shame and guilt like an adult.

i am sure there is truth to all this, but I am not so sure the way we are going about this is doing the relationship much good...it feels like it is driving me further away.

That, no doubt keeps him coming back and forking over the bucks year after year, but it does not solve the problem. I am an adult child of 2 alcoholics and wasted YEARS bloviating to a counselor - never resolving any issues. It was fun to go there and yip and yap, though, and kept me enmeshed in MYSELF. But, it never solved my problems.

The solution to the problem is to focus on the PRESENT, it cannot be found in the past. Yapping endlessly about my childhood at the IC just kept me angry and did absolutely nothing to resolve my problems. It was just a DIVERSION to the real solution. Only learning to change my CURRENT BEHAVIOR did that.

The reason that AA, Alanon, ACOA are so successful, and counseling IS NOT, is because they don't sit around and bloviate about their sad childhoods, but they change their CURRENT BEHAVIOR. They focus on the SOLUTION, rather than the past.

Nia, have you considered calling Steve Harley for counseling and dumping all of your counselors? He will show you how to really solve the problem and will give you and your H a plan of recovery. That man can do in 2 sessions what most C's can NEVER DO because SH focuses on the SOLUTION, not picking wounds from the past. He is worth every penny and won't waste a minute of your time.

nia, my greatest concern for you is that you have not really even begun recovery yet. You can't do that until you have the full truth about your life. You can't ever develop trust if he has secrets with the OW to which are not privy. The sad thing is that when he does tell you all, that festering wound you are nursing will be ripped right back open again. But that is what it will take to recover your marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dr. Harley:
Dr. Harley:

I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it.

This doesn't sit very well with me. I was a full partner in the same marriage with the same problems, my own needs not met, etc. And I did not choose to have an affair. This statement just seems to take away personal responsibility. Yes, we're all wired for SIN, and certain environments make it more or less likely, but in the end - we each have a choice.

God promises to provide a way out of every temptation - and this year I saw that a hundred fold in my husband's life. He had way out after way out, and he just kept choosing to run into the pit.

I am taking responsibility for my part of the problems in our marriage, and learning a lot this year. But I do not feel responsibility for HIS choice to SIN.

I guess it also seems like a doorway to fear; Were we ever to reconcile, or one day for me to remarry - it seems like Harley is saying I have to constantly be -not jus aware, but afraid, like the conditions of the marriage become the focus, the god - instead of God himself. It seems to me that sometimes life is just hard - and in those seasons you live by choice and not by feeling. The Bible is full of stories of people living in very less-than-ideal conditions, and still CHOOSING God, and what He says. There is always a choice.

Nia, have you considered calling Steve Harley for counseling and dumping all of your counselors? He will show you how to really solve the problem and will give you and your H a plan of recovery. That man can do in 2 sessions what most C's can NEVER DO because SH focuses on the SOLUTION, not picking wounds from the past. He is worth every penny and won't waste a minute of your time.
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I was under the impression that He would tell us that H needs to deal w/ his addictive behaviors before he would counsel us or MB would help us.

nia, my greatest concern for you is that you have not really even begun recovery yet. You can't do that until you have the full truth about your life. You can't ever develop trust if he has secrets with the OW to which are not privy. The sad thing is that when he does tell you all, that festering wound you are nursing will be ripped right back open again. But that is what it will take to recover your marriage.
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that is how I feel about it.
but, he does not understand that. he says he has told me everything and does not wish to go over it again and that I am the one who continues to allow this wound to fester.
He says there was no OW.....just strippers etc.... that he did not have actual sex with...but, who knows...I can not be sure and his defensive attitude certainly does not make me feel very secure about his supposed honesty.
He gets mad at me for not believing him...he says he understands it's his fault and the price he has to pay for not coming clean with me for so many years etc etc...but, he says he feels he is between a rock and a hard place now because nothing he ever says will make me believe him.

Phoenix..in reply to you...



But YOU are not YOUR HUSBAND. That was the copout that HE took..A BAD, WRONG, IMMORAL SOLUTION..but that was what HE did..



Again..it's about HIS relationship with GOD...and your WH probably being led by EVIL SPIRITS...



CORRECT...you are only responsible for YOURSELF...


There's no need to be AFRAID...if you TRUST in GOD and WORK on being the WIFE that GOD wants you to be...In my belief, HE wants us to ACT like a GODLY WIFE..in meeting our H's EMOTIONAL NEEDS...so in doing that, there is NOTHING for YOU to FEAR.

If your WH CHOOSES to do WRONG and YOU are doing all that YOU can do, then it's ON HIM...it's not about YOU...

Our RECOVERY has worked and continues to work because MY HUSBAND does HIS work and I do MY WORK..on the MARRIAGE...DAILY...HOURLY...

Doing THE BASICS as Dr. Harley is referring to...

OK, BUT -- I can honestly say that I HAVE tried to be a godly wife for the last nine years, in many ways choosing to love and serve and grow - doing the best I knew how to do at the time. Now I know more, now I would do better, I'm certain. But how would I know that this time it's 'enough'? What if there's another amazingly helfpul book/website I'm missing? (Because trust me, I have read a lot of books over the years). But I guess I'm saying I really believe I did my best then, with what I knew, and yet it seems that Dr. Harley is saying even my best was not enough - that it still resulted in an environment where 'anyone would have an affair.'

And I'm a little confused about the reference to childhood/personal counseling. On one hand, yes - it did not seem to work for us. That is what the counselor focused on (although H had refused to work on anything regarding the marriage), and it did not help. She felt from the beginning that something else was going on - suspected an affair, but he completely denied it. So what else is there to do?

But as she poked into the personal stuff it really triggered some things, and he became extremely depressed/suicidal. There clearly was some stuff there to deal with - isn't it possible that sometimes one has to get to the roots to be able to deal with the behaviors?

IMO, yes and no. They need to get to the root to understand their motivations or slant to behave a certain way. BUT, behaviors are all about choices...even without a good understanding of why he did what he did, he can CHOOSE to act differently.

Phoenix:

Putting it specifically in terms of MBers' Philosopy, I had to come to terms with the FACT that I was not meeting my H's PRIMARY ENs. So I encourage you to read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS to see what you think about YOURSELF if you are interested in studying Dr. Harley's viewpoint. It really FIT for US and what happened in OUR MARRIAGE.



It's too late once the ADDICTION has taken on...

I'm not a BIG FAN of traditional counseling anymore...

Once his affair had begun, my H used counseling to JUSTIFY his affair. From my understanding, he focused on how AWFUL I was and the counselor supported him. I'll never forget the FRIDAY that he called me, said he was going to his IC session and I didn't hear from him again until Sunday..with me thinking that he was suicidal or something..he went off and got his FIX from the OW after crying the blues with the IC... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I don't think so Nia. I think calling Steve Harley is the absolute best thing you could do right now. And if SH feels that your H is an addict and must work on that first before marital recovery, he will let you know. So go ahead and give him a call.

I agree with the others on IC that focuses on childhoods. I used to walk out of IC the moment the counselor asked about my parents. I then found a solutions focused coach (like the Harley's) and was able to focus on current behavior. Made all the difference, and I believe that is why I found this website so helpful. I used to really read what the succesful married and even single ladies here had to say. I studied succesful behavior, not unsuccesful behavior... and it has made all the difference.

I have learned NIA, when I have a problem to stop focusing on the other person involved and really try to only focus on my actions as they pertain to that other person. Because what usually happens when our approach is not working is that we are so focused on the other person, that we cannot see that we are continually doing the same thing and getting the same undesired result. Even stepping it up and doing it more and harder, instead of stepping back and saying "hey, this is not working. let me try a different approach".

I can give you an example quickly that helped me in an area I was having a very hard time in. I started drinking wine during and after my last R. I drank it evey night I didn't have my daughter. And we had a four month rotation so you can see I drank it a lot. Not a lot at one time, but I got into the TERRIBLE happit of drinking it every day. two or three glasses.

My new husband is VERY uncomfortable with drinking wine or anything else everyday, or of having it at home. So I had to quit because I knew it would damage our marriage.

Well the more I focused on the wine, the bigger the problem got. It became so big that I couldn't not drink it.

So, having learned about solution focused therapy, I looked at what I was doing and decided to try a different approach.

This time, I refused to focus on the wine at all. I wanted it to become so small that it just dissapeared and I knew if you want something to disappear you can't be thinking about it all the time.

I had to replace the wine habit with good habits. I had to find something that got me excited and that in order to do, I could not drink wine.

Soon I never thought about having a glass of wine at night at all. It had become a non issue by not allowing myself to focus on it by engaging in other activies that were not conducive to drinking wine.

See how it works? And I never once had to go talk to somebody about how my dad was an alcoholic and my mom was a gambling addict.

Quitting smoking was a different technique for me that did not work for the wine... as I didn't change or add any activities, I mostly used mental power.

Take a look at your approach, and see if there is something you can change in the way you are approaching him. Keep a daily diary if you have to.

Orchid has some good ideas on how to ask questions. It's really interesting how she used to approach her H when she needed answers.

It's too late once the ADDICTION has taken on...
Yeah, I can see where this comes into play..

Mimi- I feel like I do have a pretty good understanding at this point of his philosophy, and agree with all that I've read. And am continuing to work on my stuff, and the kinds of things he recommends, etc. I also don't doubt that his stuff is applicable to us/our breakdown - and am sure it would be of great help if WH ever returns. I'm just saying that whether one/both/neither spouse does HNHN perfectly, or not at all - there is ALWAYS a choice. It does not feel right to read that 'anyone' would have an affair, even despite the perfect storm.

Does he have a chemical or alcohol addiction? That is the only thing that would preclude getting help for your marriage. And it doesn't sound like he is getting that now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Right. And scratching the scab is counterproductive. As you can see, it helped NOTHING. I used to leave counseling UPSET and ANGRY for years. IN WORSE SHAPE THAN WHEN I WENT IN!

But I paid good money and time for NOTHING! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The truth is that you don't have to know WHY you do a certain thing in order to correct the behavior. You simply have to CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR. It is unlikely one will EVER find out why anyway.


Behaviors change by focusing on the PRESENT. Once the focus is taken off the present, then no solution is ever probable. The solution is found in changing PRESENT BEHAVIORS.

phoenix, I was just as shocked as you when I first heard this, but I learned Dr Harley is dead right!! It is shocking because we have been brainwashed by a culture of counseling in this country. A very counterproductive trend! That is why his program is successful whereas your average marriage counseling is a DISMAL FAILURE with only a 16% success rate. If you look at the programs that succeed,[AA, AlAnon, ACOA, etc] you will see that they have a common demoninator, they focus on changing the PRESENT and leave the past.....in the past.

This HAS been exactly my personal experience as someone who was in counseling for YEARS and got nowhere, but went to AA and ACOA and changed dramatically and immediately!

Does he have a chemical or alcohol addiction? That is the only thing that would preclude getting help for your marriage.
****************************

According to Addiction Specialist he is not an alcoholic but he could easily become one if he is not careful. She suggest he stop drinking...which he did for about 4 months and then slowly started to drink again.
Compulsive Sexual Behavior is what they are calling it.
How significant seems to depend on his mood.
He uses alcohol and nicotine and sexual fantasy when stressed....and for years, indulged in this type of IB w/o me
knowing.
it has always felt like an affair to me...the secrecy, the lies....the defensive attitude etc.

Nia, then there is nothing here that would prevent you from GREATLY BENFITTING from marriage coaching with SH. I am really concerned that you have been living under the shroud of darkness all this time. That is like torture. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Take a look at your approach, and see if there is something you can change in the way you are approaching him. Keep a daily diary if you have to.
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I am sure this has lots to do w/ his reluctance to discuss past sexual IB w/ me.....he does not feel safe w/ me....I think he is afraid I will leave him if i find out about an affair or even a ONS...which I am pretty sure has happened at least once.

Nia:

So I guess you see how the OPENNESS and HONESTY/TRANSPARENCY is missing. I didn't know about this SKILL either until MBers. You say "You think" about what his fear is...and you haven't told him that you would not leave him..or will you? Perhaps if you took the lead and shared with him and told him that you know about an approach that's successful in helping marriages...

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it is like torture.
I came to MB a couple of years ago to improve the H/O in my marriage....I didn't suspect an affair or SA at the time....when some of his lies around his IB were revealed and he started talking sex addiction,I shut down......I really wasn't sure how I felt about him/me/marriage anymore.
and I kind of gave up on it for awhile and decided to let him do it his way....but, ya know, it's not working for me and I do need to do something different. How much does Steve cost?...and how can I benefit if H is not on board w/ talking to him.
He has become anti-MB.....He thinks of it as "my" thing.

All the more reason to call SH. Long term bad communication habits probably very much need a third party involved.

I love the way Orchid handled this, too. Perhaps you could call her out.

My H talked to Steve a couple of times..but most of the coaching was just ME..he helped ME immensely...changed my life putting INTO PRACTICE what the BEHAVIOR CHANGES that he recommended...

So I guess you see how the OPENNESS and HONESTY/TRANSPARENCY is missing. I didn't know about this SKILL either until MBers. You say "You think" about what his fear is...and you haven't told him that you would not leave him..or will you? Perhaps if you took the lead and shared with him and told him that you know about an approach that's successful in helping marriages...
**************************8

Hi Mimi,

yes, I have tried this.....we even made quite a bit of progress a few years ago....but, i later learned that he had been keeping some serious info and had actually lied to me about some things.....after that, I shut down.....I haven't really been able to trust him since.

I haven't told him i won't leave him.....I have told him i might....I won't know un till I know the whole truth and I see that he is doing everything not to behave like that again..that is when he went to his own IC. He is working on his issues and he has been much more open w/ me than in the past.....and we are trying to work on the communication...but, he will not discuss what he did in the past...he has told me a few things but refuses to go into any detail.

Our MC has said we will get around to it once our communication is up for it.

You will get a third party unbiased opinion on changes YOU can make.

When I called a couple of years ago it was $185.00 per session.

If your H is into such IB as it sounds, all you can do is change the way you approach and relate... It will cause changes in the dynamics. With the guidance of SH, the change in dynamics will be positive and geared toward marriage recovery.

nia, Steve can help you bring him on board. My DH was once hostile to MB but has really come around since he has seen the positive changes in ME and actually MET other MB people. He does the lessons with me, too. [we went to a MB weekend] To him, MB represented an INDICTMENT of his affair, but when he learned it was nothing of the sort, he relaxed about it all.

*********************************

thanks mimi.
this is starting to sound like something I need to look into....I really gave up on it when i read that the addcition needs to be addressed first.

How do I find out the $?

and thanks josie....I will try to look up orchids posts.

Any thoughts on the MB week-end?

If your H is into such IB as it sounds, all you can do is change the way you approach and relate... It will cause changes in the dynamics. With the guidance of SH, the change in dynamics will be positive and geared toward marriage recovery.
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this is a good point and the direction I need to be focusing on.
I need to want to be in this marriage...and for the right reasons. I keep hoping he will figure it out in his IC......but, his IC seems to be prolonging me getting the answers I have waiting for.
I need a plan.

Mel - I keep responding because I am interested in this - I mostly agree but it is also bringing up some questions that I think are key for me. Am I TJ-ing? Is it ok to keep posting about this here?

I get what you're saying - and respect you enough to believe that if you (and these others) are saying it, that it's most likely true. So I'm just trying to understand. Because on one hand - I saw my H struggle our whole marriage with serious anger stuff. And I really think he was trying to correct the present behavior, but nothing ever worked. In that case, I really feel like whatever the counselor started digging up from his past would have been helpful to addressing that.. what do you think? Does what you're saying only apply to marriage/affair issues, or all-around counseling?

Also, the counselor said that H was very passive-aggressive, and as I've read more about it lately, I am convinced that affected a lot of our problems (his PA, and my enabling the PA). Again, I think digging into that (if he would have been willing - which he wasn't because he was already in the addiction) would have been helpful to us. But maybe what you're saying is that Harley's principle, like POJA, would have addressed the PA indirectly, even if we didn't know it was the PA causing the underlying problem?

Lastly, I think this all just touches on the issue of CONTROL that I have been working on a lot this year. A big part of this whole ordeal for me has been learning to trust God, giving it over to Him instead of trying to control. Giving WH the 'diginity of choice', even if the choice he makes is miserable or sinful. So reading Harley's letter above triggers for me the feelingi that 'if only I would have done everything perfectly, my H would not have had an A.' or that in the future, if I do everything perfectly, I can keep H from having an A. That seems counterintuitive to the way that I've been growing..?

Nia,

My girlfriend's husband used to smoke pot and she hated it, just hated it. They fought for 14 years over this one issue. She would get angry, check his clothing, car, etc for evidence...he'd get angry, stomp out, say ef it, go smoke up...

I mean this nasty cycle went on for years. She finally realized she was doing the same thing over and over and getting exactly the same results, and so was he.

She ended up changing HERSELF and her approach...

It took time and paying attention to what the cycle/dynamic was, and then it took time for the new approach/changes ...but not as much time as you would think.

I believe he hasn't touched pot in at least a year. And they have a much better marriage. Of course she can't focus on his addiction anymore and that in and of itself is one part of the dynamic. That is why Alanon is so important for spouses of alcoholics. Addictions are family problems, not just individual problems, for this reason. At least that is my understanding.

It is very heartening to see you say you will get a plan and start making changes of your own. It really is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I so agree with you, Phoenix!

I realize the MB philosophy on this...but if we were all wired for it, we would all have affairs.

As you said...my husband and I were in the same marriage. If I was "wired" for an affair, why didn't I have one? I had opportunity.

What would have worked with him, would not be ROOTING around in the past, but a WILLINGNESS to change and an anger management course that taught him to change current behavior. He does NOT need to know WHY he has anger problems in order to change his behavior, he just needs to know how to change. In fact, rooting around in the past will keep him ANGRY.

Passive agressive people can still master this program if they are willing. In fact, if followed correctly it would eliminate PA behavior. It is a big adjustment, but no more than someone like me, who is the QUEEN of Independent Behavior, had to adjust.


I am not sure I understand your question. Can you show me what quote of Dr Harley has made you feel this way?

Because the right conditions have not collided with opportunity in your life. You probably have good boundaries and a strong sense of identity, so the conditions were not right for you to have an affair. The people who have affairs, do not usually have that.

For me, I know I could have an affair if I ignored proper boundaries, neglected my marriage, sacrified my own needs, and allowed myself to get into vulnerable situations with men. BUT I DON'T! But I do know I could, if I were lax.

Usually the people who have affairs are the ones who think it could never happen to them, and as a result, do not observe proper boundaries in their lives. For example, they will have lots of opposite sex "friendships," and carry on a seperate personal life from their spouse. They live in a way that makes them vulnerable to an affair because they do not recognize how easily inappropriate feelings can emerge that lead to an affair.

Listen, y'all, I felt the same way when I first heard this at MB. It ticked me off because I believed it could never happen to me. Well, I have since learned that most ppl who have affairs think the same thing!! But the difference between those of us who have them and those who don't comes down to setting proper boundaries. I know I could have an affair under certain conditions.

The MB weekend was INVALUABLE to our marriage. Not only did it make my H a believer, but afterwards Dr. Harleys staff follows up with you to make sure you both do the lessons. You have full access to Dr Harley over on the private forum. This would be even better than counseling, IMO, or as a supplement.

Can you show me what quote of Dr Harley has made you feel this way?

I think some light is coming through for me. The quote was him saying that under certain conditions anyone would have an affair -- I read that to mean the 'certain conditions' are all dependent on me, what I do and don't do, etc. But from both of your last two posts, I think understand a little better. You're saying that the conditions are made by both people. Yes, he did have what you referenced above (poor boundaries, inappropriate friendships, etc) - but that was a choice HE made, that I had no control over. So even if I had done everything perfectly (which I know is impossible), if he was not committed to certain things like that, the conditions could still be set for an affair..? Am I closer? I'm having a hard time verbalizing this very well..

You got it!

phoenix, in every case of an affair, one of the conditions are poor boundaries. That is always the fault of the affairee who CHOSE to have an affair. It is always his fault. In SOME CASES, a BS will contribute to the conditions that led to the affair. IN SOME CASES NOT! And in many cases, the BS's contribution is inadvertant. I can't tell you how common it is for a BS to never even know there is a problem, so his/her contribution will be inadvertant.

Let me give you an example. In my last marriage, which lasted 19 years, I withheld sex, disrespected my husband, refused to go anywhere with him, and treated him with contempt.[I had no respect for him] He also had very poor boundaries and had scads of female friends, associates, employees, etc. Because of these conditions, he was vulnerable when the OW starting giving him attention and treating him like a man. He was suddenly a starving man standing in front of an all-u-can-eat buffet!

Fast forward to my current marriage. I had been married 4 months when I found out he was communicating with an old GF and having an internet affair. I met all his needs. The only condition that led to this was his poor boundaries and immoral, low character. [my judgement was quite impaired when I chose him] He felt entitled. My H and our MB counselor both agreed that I met his every need. There was no lack on my part.

In the second example, I contributed NOTHING to his decision to have an affair, in the first, I may as well have set up the date and driven him to the ho's house!

Here is something that Steve Harley told board member, JustKim:

"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"

I too relate to the what if thinking- what if I am doing the best I can with the "new tools" I have been provided and he has an affair. Is his choice of having an affair my fault because I did not use my "new tools" better.

I know this is very dangerous thinking for myself- as I can quickly spiral back to I was doing the best I could with the tools I had when he had the affair in the first place- leaving me to feel responsible for the choice he made.

And if I am reading everything correctly that is Phoenix's thought process too- right?

AM

Here is something that Steve Harley told board member, JustKim:

"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"

If that is so...what is the point in striving to meet the WS's ENs? If they are weak and don't protect themselves once, isn't it just more likely it will happen again?

I apologize - I am very sad and low tonight. Recovery from this to me just seems impossible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yes - amartini, that is along the lines of my same thought process.

Mel - what you wrote was *perfect* - very helpful, thankyou for persevering with me down this train of thought. And the Harley quote you posted, also VERY HELPFUL. What I was looking for, and good to know.

But I am also really interested to hear answers to the question RU just posted..

Absolutely! That is why Dr Harley says in the article that the conditions that led to the affair MUST CHANGE in order for recovery to take place.

Not meeting the spouse's ENs makes THE MARRIAGE vulnerable to an affair.

The WAYWARD makes THE CHOICE to deal with the marital problems by having an affair.

It will not happen again if the WS learns other means of dealing with the vulnerabilities..PROPER BOUNDARIES...OPENNESS AND HONESTY..EXTREME PRECAUTIONS FROM THE AFFAIR PARTNER..the WAYWARD has to be committed to making sure that it doesn't happen again by applying the MBers's KEYS to an EFFECTIVE MARRIAGE.

The FBSes job continues to be to meet the spouse's ENs. That is the expectation in any MARRIAGE.

If conditions are perfect and a BS is meeting all of the ENs of the WS...and there is still an affair...what is there to change? (I'm using your example...not my situation.)

And if they have proven themselves to be weak...as I said, isn't it quite likely to happen again?

I'm looking at this from a BS's point of view. I can't make him strengthen his boundaries. I can't keep him from situations where there are prettier women. If he wanted to have this affair, knowing perfectly well how devastating it would be, what would make him care if he did it again?

If conditions were perfect, there wouldn't have been an affair. And no, you can't FORCE him to strengthen his boundaries. But, IF he wants to recover, he will have to CHANGE the conditions that led to the affair.


Nothing that I know of.. You can't change a person against his will.

The WS has to be committed to changing as Mel states. He has to do his OWN WORK.

My H, on his own, continues to take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS that are HABITUAL for him. I watch him in amazement. He doesn't take calls marked PRIVATE. He is compulsive about telling me his whereabouts. His email and all such things are OPEN to me. It ALMOST bothers me because it is a constant reminder that he had an affair. It must be how an alcoholic is committed to not going to bars. I don't know.

Another thing is that he is most definitely IN LOVE with me. Anytime that he senses that I am pained by something related to the affair I see the UTTER SADNESS and GUILT painted all over his face.

It's THE SUFFERING that he must have endured when he was ending the affair and when he was coming out of the fog. I think that must be the value of PLAN B for them to come to the FULL REALIZATION of what they have done. They have to SUFFER, really SUFFER the CONSEQUENCES of their actions in order to NEVER want to go to that DARK PLACE again...

Thanks SO much Mimi and Mel..

Basically what I'm hearing though (in the above few posts) is that even IF he comes back repentant and willing to work the MB plan .. if at any point down the road the FWS decides to stop keeping boundaries, etc., even if you continue meeting ENs, they may very well become affair-prone again?

Yes..in answer to your question, Phoenix.

My H is FOREVER ADDICTED to the FOW..I accept that...

It is not as much HER as it is THE FEELING that she gave him...or THE FEELING that the affair produced..

Mimi - that all sounds amazing, and so hard to fathom in the place I'm at now. My understanding though is that there's nothing I can do at the present, besides what I've already done/am doing, to get my WH to come to that realization.. is that correct?

Yeah, that makes sense. My WH has a very addictive personality, which he knows and tries to protect himself from the things he now sees as past addictions. Just think he didn't see this one coming, in that light anyway. Hope one day he will. Even while the A was beginning and he was given anti-anxiety pills, he was very cautious to research them and take them prudently because of 'his addictive personality' - all the while engaging in a brand new addiction. BUT, like I said, I have seen him set up and enforce real precautions around the things he did come to see as addictions, so maybe that is hopeful.

A STRICT PLAN B is the answer I think.

It was hard for me to believe and understand, too.

But the KEY is for him to SUFFER with NO RELIEF...

PRAY, HAVE FAITH and turn him over TO GOD...

Thanks for the nice post, LALA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

**thanks**

will keep on keeping on, and I guess we'll just see what happens.

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Thanks Mel, ya beat me to it!

What do you guys think about that saying

"He/she has done it once, they'll do it again."

Where does it come from?

Doesn't Dr.Phil say something like "past behaviour is future behaviour"

Past behavior usually is an indicator of future behavior, especially if the person does nothing to change. However, people CAN AND DO change if they are willing to work hard.

I don't think my H will do it again...

He CAN do it again..but I don't think he will..

Because I have CHANGED..he has CHANGED..we continue to WORK on ourselves and on our marriage..

I BELIEVE in the POWER of CHANGE and GROWTH...and of course FAITH...

Our first year of college WH (boyfriend then) and I were at different schools. That summer we became Christians, started really growing in our faith. The next year, then at the same school, after a big conference he told me that the previous year he had been unfaithful to me 3 times with 3 different people. I was SHOCKED. I honestly had no clue, and was pretty naive I guess. But he was adimant that he had changed, that He was a Christian now, that he chose to tell me because he wanted to be honest etc. I eventually worked through it, and really forgave him. Really built up complete trust again.

Now, of course, I feel so disenchanted - and wonder if I was just stupid for believing and trusting. Like you said, if they did it once.. I really believed that God had changed him. And I think he had..? So do you think that if he does ever come back, learning the MB principles, etc could be enough now? Is it possible that some people just don't have a regulated conciense? my counselor says WH is somewhat narcisstic, but peaking right now.. am i crazy for even leaving the door open for reconciliation?

I think I feel most disenchanted that, in the end, following God wasn't enough.

Don't you think that SATAN may be encouraging you to not put your FAITH in GOD?

TRUST in the LORD, Phoenix..

HE brought you and your WH together...

Satan is trying to drive you apart..

That's my belief..

I continued to TRUST IN THE LORD...

Give your WH over to HIM...but don't lose your FAITH in HIM...

I share your fears.

I am finding it extremely difficult to trust again. I don't want to set myself up for "the worst pain imagineable" ever again. But what choice do I have if I ever want to love again?

thanks mimi, and yes - i do think that sometimes. right now i'm still at a very low, grey kind of place so it's just hard to keep seeing straight. one of my pastors always prays something very simple over me, but that has been profound in my spirit..

God is at work.

always true, no matter how things look.

I also read recently a book about just how valuable our faith is to God - so valuable that He even lets us go through such things that bring it about. The book also talked about something even deeper than faith, that being fidelity. That sometimes we're beyond a place of even being able to have faith, but can still choose fidelity.

Phoenix, I found myself several years ago at a place where something devastating was happening in my life and it made no sense to me. I spent a lot of time praying for understanding and saying "Lord, I don't understand!" The only answer I received was Proverbs 3:5. I guess that is part of what faith is - when nothing makes sense will we trust Him anyway?

Your "grey" place reminded me of the following verse. I looked it up in 2 different translations. It's for those of us who do find ourselves in a place where there is little light and a whole lot of gray.

Isaiah 50:10 (English Standard Version)
10 Who among you fears the Lord
and obeys his servant?
If you are walking in darkness,
without a ray of light,
trust in the Lord
and rely on your God.

And the same verse in the New Living Translation said:

10 Who is among you who [reverently] fears the Lord,
who obeys the voice of His Servant,
yet who walks in darkness and deep trouble
and has no shining splendor [in his heart]?
Let him rely on, trust in, and be confident in the name of the Lord,
and let him lean upon and be supported by his God.

Dealing with infidelity is one of those times when there is no "shining splendor" in our heart - broken, bruised and bleeding - not much spendor. I hope this doesn't sound "preachy" and no offense is meant. {{{hugs}}}

You sound right on target to me, Grap...

thanks graplin! very good to read. i'll also throw in the message version:

Who out there fears God,
actually listens to the voice of his servant?
For anyone out there who doesn't know where you're going,
anyone groping in the dark,
Here's what: Trust in God.
Lean on your God!

i was thinking about those words, 'lean on' and 'rely on' ..
what that looks like tangibly in .. this ..

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