The MB weekend was INVALUABLE to our marriage. Not only did it make my H a believer, but afterwards Dr. Harleys staff follows up with you to make sure you both do the lessons. You have full access to Dr Harley over on the private forum. This would be even better than counseling, IMO, or as a supplement.

Can you show me what quote of Dr Harley has made you feel this way?

I think some light is coming through for me. The quote was him saying that under certain conditions anyone would have an affair -- I read that to mean the 'certain conditions' are all dependent on me, what I do and don't do, etc. But from both of your last two posts, I think understand a little better. You're saying that the conditions are made by both people. Yes, he did have what you referenced above (poor boundaries, inappropriate friendships, etc) - but that was a choice HE made, that I had no control over. So even if I had done everything perfectly (which I know is impossible), if he was not committed to certain things like that, the conditions could still be set for an affair..? Am I closer? I'm having a hard time verbalizing this very well..

You got it!

phoenix, in every case of an affair, one of the conditions are poor boundaries. That is always the fault of the affairee who CHOSE to have an affair. It is always his fault. In SOME CASES, a BS will contribute to the conditions that led to the affair. IN SOME CASES NOT! And in many cases, the BS's contribution is inadvertant. I can't tell you how common it is for a BS to never even know there is a problem, so his/her contribution will be inadvertant.

Let me give you an example. In my last marriage, which lasted 19 years, I withheld sex, disrespected my husband, refused to go anywhere with him, and treated him with contempt.[I had no respect for him] He also had very poor boundaries and had scads of female friends, associates, employees, etc. Because of these conditions, he was vulnerable when the OW starting giving him attention and treating him like a man. He was suddenly a starving man standing in front of an all-u-can-eat buffet!

Fast forward to my current marriage. I had been married 4 months when I found out he was communicating with an old GF and having an internet affair. I met all his needs. The only condition that led to this was his poor boundaries and immoral, low character. [my judgement was quite impaired when I chose him] He felt entitled. My H and our MB counselor both agreed that I met his every need. There was no lack on my part.

In the second example, I contributed NOTHING to his decision to have an affair, in the first, I may as well have set up the date and driven him to the ho's house!

Here is something that Steve Harley told board member, JustKim:

"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"

I too relate to the what if thinking- what if I am doing the best I can with the "new tools" I have been provided and he has an affair. Is his choice of having an affair my fault because I did not use my "new tools" better.

I know this is very dangerous thinking for myself- as I can quickly spiral back to I was doing the best I could with the tools I had when he had the affair in the first place- leaving me to feel responsible for the choice he made.

And if I am reading everything correctly that is Phoenix's thought process too- right?

AM

Here is something that Steve Harley told board member, JustKim:

"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"

If that is so...what is the point in striving to meet the WS's ENs? If they are weak and don't protect themselves once, isn't it just more likely it will happen again?

I apologize - I am very sad and low tonight. Recovery from this to me just seems impossible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yes - amartini, that is along the lines of my same thought process.

Mel - what you wrote was *perfect* - very helpful, thankyou for persevering with me down this train of thought. And the Harley quote you posted, also VERY HELPFUL. What I was looking for, and good to know.

But I am also really interested to hear answers to the question RU just posted..

Absolutely! That is why Dr Harley says in the article that the conditions that led to the affair MUST CHANGE in order for recovery to take place.

Not meeting the spouse's ENs makes THE MARRIAGE vulnerable to an affair.

The WAYWARD makes THE CHOICE to deal with the marital problems by having an affair.

It will not happen again if the WS learns other means of dealing with the vulnerabilities..PROPER BOUNDARIES...OPENNESS AND HONESTY..EXTREME PRECAUTIONS FROM THE AFFAIR PARTNER..the WAYWARD has to be committed to making sure that it doesn't happen again by applying the MBers's KEYS to an EFFECTIVE MARRIAGE.

The FBSes job continues to be to meet the spouse's ENs. That is the expectation in any MARRIAGE.

If conditions are perfect and a BS is meeting all of the ENs of the WS...and there is still an affair...what is there to change? (I'm using your example...not my situation.)

And if they have proven themselves to be weak...as I said, isn't it quite likely to happen again?

I'm looking at this from a BS's point of view. I can't make him strengthen his boundaries. I can't keep him from situations where there are prettier women. If he wanted to have this affair, knowing perfectly well how devastating it would be, what would make him care if he did it again?

If conditions were perfect, there wouldn't have been an affair. And no, you can't FORCE him to strengthen his boundaries. But, IF he wants to recover, he will have to CHANGE the conditions that led to the affair.


Nothing that I know of.. You can't change a person against his will.

The WS has to be committed to changing as Mel states. He has to do his OWN WORK.

My H, on his own, continues to take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS that are HABITUAL for him. I watch him in amazement. He doesn't take calls marked PRIVATE. He is compulsive about telling me his whereabouts. His email and all such things are OPEN to me. It ALMOST bothers me because it is a constant reminder that he had an affair. It must be how an alcoholic is committed to not going to bars. I don't know.

Another thing is that he is most definitely IN LOVE with me. Anytime that he senses that I am pained by something related to the affair I see the UTTER SADNESS and GUILT painted all over his face.

It's THE SUFFERING that he must have endured when he was ending the affair and when he was coming out of the fog. I think that must be the value of PLAN B for them to come to the FULL REALIZATION of what they have done. They have to SUFFER, really SUFFER the CONSEQUENCES of their actions in order to NEVER want to go to that DARK PLACE again...

Thanks SO much Mimi and Mel..

Basically what I'm hearing though (in the above few posts) is that even IF he comes back repentant and willing to work the MB plan .. if at any point down the road the FWS decides to stop keeping boundaries, etc., even if you continue meeting ENs, they may very well become affair-prone again?

Yes..in answer to your question, Phoenix.

My H is FOREVER ADDICTED to the FOW..I accept that...

It is not as much HER as it is THE FEELING that she gave him...or THE FEELING that the affair produced..

Mimi - that all sounds amazing, and so hard to fathom in the place I'm at now. My understanding though is that there's nothing I can do at the present, besides what I've already done/am doing, to get my WH to come to that realization.. is that correct?

Yeah, that makes sense. My WH has a very addictive personality, which he knows and tries to protect himself from the things he now sees as past addictions. Just think he didn't see this one coming, in that light anyway. Hope one day he will. Even while the A was beginning and he was given anti-anxiety pills, he was very cautious to research them and take them prudently because of 'his addictive personality' - all the while engaging in a brand new addiction. BUT, like I said, I have seen him set up and enforce real precautions around the things he did come to see as addictions, so maybe that is hopeful.

A STRICT PLAN B is the answer I think.

It was hard for me to believe and understand, too.

But the KEY is for him to SUFFER with NO RELIEF...

PRAY, HAVE FAITH and turn him over TO GOD...

Thanks for the nice post, LALA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

**thanks**

will keep on keeping on, and I guess we'll just see what happens.

bump