Anyone read Love Must Be Tough by Dobson? I'm seeing a counselor next week and she suggested I read it. I haven't gotten it yet but she did explain a bit about the book. Sounds a little like Plan B but not exactly. She said that my husband has to get off the fence as he would stay there for a very long time if he is allowed. She said she hasn't seen many men that don't divorce their wives from the onset of the affair. Just wondering if anyone would like to share their opinion about the book if you've read it and how it differs from Plan B. Also, if it does differ which is the best approach?

Here is an exerpt from "Love Must Be Tough" -

It is kind of like a Plan B, but without Plan A.


"Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.
This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture."

And I don't understand what she means by she hasn't seen many men who don't divorce their wives from the onset of an affair. The vast MAJORITY don't divorce their wives.

Believer- Thanks for the info. I'm looking forward to getting the book. Why don't the vast majority not divorce their wives? Are they waiting for us to do it so they are not the bad guys? Or do they cake eat for as long as they are allowed? Or do they just feel bad?

I've read Love Must Be Tough and I highly recommend it if you are Christian. It generally comports with Dr. Harley's Plan B.

I think the reason most wayward husbands don't divorce their wives is because usually the BW is providing some ENs that the OW isn't. It seems that the WH usually only initiates divorce proceedings if the OW pressures him to.

Thanks for your replies. The other woman in this case is married. I'm not sure if she will pressure him to get a divorce. I'm sure she will try though. My counselor seems to think I need to knock my husband off his fence. Her srategy is more in the line of Dobson not MB. I'm confused as to which way is more appropriate. I got the book and it is a bit more firm in that it's all or nothing. Right now, not in 6 months, 18 months etc. Any suggestions or comments?

Definitly your Tx has more insight about your trouble than us. Have you ask her why she recommend it ? How many clients of hers that has similiar situation and able to save their M ?. How many failed ? You have to be able to trust your counselor otherwise you are wasting your $.

Tough Love requires you acting based on righteousness. If you have doubts about your action, you might have regrets later.

MB requires you to plan A first to examine yourself and work on your self. Then Plan B.

Many methods out there, Divorce buster, is another one. However you are the ultimate decision maker and the recipient of it.

I choose MB and my previous M ended in Dv. However I have no regret and able to build a better M.

rh

I think that a lot of men just don't file for the D "just in case". And if you do not file for the D, they will think that they can come back at any time.

My exh did not file. I literally begged him to file so that I would know it was done. He did not. Why? I think that he was just used to me handling everything, and I finally had enough, and filed on my own.

So I think it is lack of motivation, wanting to keep their foot in the door, and not wanting to be the bad guy.

Puppylove10 - are you up for some "hard talkin' reality?"

I think your posts (having gone back read your entire "Cruise" thread) and your chosen username sort of go "hand-in-hand."

Let's look at your latest....


Answer: who the heck cares? You aren't going to DO what is advised anyway. That has become eminently clear.

You are using things to try to manipulate a response from your husband.

Let me be very blunt; after some 6 months of "plan A" and it was completely ineffective (including his back home, leave home, take a cruise with the ho ho homewrecker [who by the way is exactly the same sort of cakeeater your husband is], and your inability to DO what needs to be done, it doesn't matter what "plan" you implement because you are going to do what you want to do anyway.

I, for one, cannot believe that you have been in Plan B for almost 3 weeks and you are still choosing to sabotage it and do what you want. The only time you seemed to have actually gotten any "Righteous Anger" was when your husband wanted to take your kids to see the "friend" OW. THAT's when he "got the message."

But the only message he got was "don't mess with the kids and I can keep doing what I want to do and keep 2 "weak willed women" on the string indefinitely.

Puppylove10, Dobson is a Christian and his advice is primarily intended for Christians. I have seen NO mention of God in any of your posts, so it leaves me believing that BOTH you and your husband don't care what God has to say about anything. Therefore, keep on doing whatever you want to do, and your husband will likewise keep on doing whatever he wants to do.

To use "Tough Love" as a method of manipulation is to completely miss what Dobson said and why he said it.

And in the long run, the kids will pay for the chosen "mistakes" of the so-called 'adults' in this drama.

You want it "hard and fast?" Here it is: Complete dark Plan B. Make it clear that ONLY if he ends the affair immediately will you attempt to recover your marriage to him. If he does not, then tell him to file for Divorce and you'll see him in Court. Tell him he is "on the clock" and you will not "wait around indefinitely."

Why? Because "game time" is over. It's now time to "precipitated a crisis" wherein he "can't have it both ways." He has to CHOOSE. YOU will live your life and he can decide to be a part of it or not. But there is "no sharing" of spouses in a marriage because such behavior is NOT a marriage.

But YOU have to understand that Plan B IS an ultimatum. It is NOT for an indefinite timeframe. It has an end. End the affair or Divorce the marriage. YOU have to be ready to accept that FACT. One or the other, but not both.

Good luck. Stiffen your spine. STAND for what is right and let the "chips fall where they may."

Ok. Thanks Foreverhers for your response. I don't understand how Plan B is an ultimatum. I understand I'm saying I will have no contact with you until you end your affair. And that I put my own time limit on it. But, he doesn't know what my time limit is so won't he just think "great she's leaving me alone so I can have my affair uninterupted". I don't see how that creates a crisis for him. At this time he's still fogged out so he isn't sitting around thinking "maybe my wife has had enough of this, and might leave me if I don't end this affair.

You don't?

An ultimatum involves telling someone that they have to make a choice.

They can choose whatever THEY want to choose and you will live your life in response to their choice. You will live your life with them or without them, but NOT in opposition to what MARRIAGE is...."forsaking all others and keeping myself only unto YOU."

Period.

Plan B IS an ultimatum. CHOOSE, my WS. Choose the OP or choose me and our family. But you CANNOT have both.

Choose the OP, and you will no longer have the "option" to choose me and the children.

Don't you think that is an ultimatum? Don't issue it if you don't intend to stick by it, "to the bitter end" if need be.

Puppylove,

Have you actually READ Surviving an Affair? Or any of the articles on this site about affairs and Plan B?

One of the MAJOR reasons for Plan B is to CUT OFF CONTACT with YOU!!!!!!! It takes away your WH's ability to get his ENs needs met by BOTH women. It forces the affair OUT of fantasy land and into the REAL WORLD where your WH gets his ENs met ONLY by the OW. And the chances are that SHE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MEET ALL HIS ENS.

There is no guarantee that Plan B ends an affair and that a marriage can be restored.

And here is a very important point: PLAN B PROTECTS YOU!!! It protects you from the constant contact with your hurtful, foggy, WH. You don't talk to him, see him, or listen to anyone else talk about him. All contact is through a trusted mediator who filters information and gives you only what is absolutely necessary.

That is the point of Plan B. Go read Charlotte's thread. Read Queenies's thread. Read everything Mimi has ever written. You will see clearly how Plan B works.

Most important, if you are REALLY interested, read SSA, read all the articles on this site. Do your research and don't just wait for someone else to tell you how to do it. And certainly stop waiting for your WH to do something. He is having the time of his life. My H told me that in the middle of his A, he felt like he was a really great guy because he had 2 women. Yuck!! He is out of THAT fog now!!

It strikes me that you might be looking for a magic pill that works QUICKLY. Not gonna happen. Hard work and LOTS of it.

WH2LE

Thanks for your replys. I see that Plan B is an ultimatum but according to my Plan B letter it stated I will only talk to him when he is able to meet my conditions for reconciliation. Doesn't that send a message that he still has an "in" if and when he chooses. Doesn't that still sorta leave it up to him?
I've been in a Plan B. I do feel better some days some days I feel like he's having a great time with me out of the picture. I don't know what needs I'm really meeting of his right now. Before the Plan B letter he seemed OK about getting a divorce. He did however say lets give it some time. He's very careful about how he chooses his words. He won't come right out and say I don't want a divorce like he used to. He knows that if he does I would probably tell the other woman what he said. He's very vague about the whole divorce thing. He chooses his words carefully now.

If you are able to say that your WH chooses his words carefully, then you must be talking to him. If you are talking to him, YOU ARE NOT IN PLAN B. And you are allowing him to cake-eat.

GO READ ABOUT PLAN B!! Period.

WH2LE

I'm not talking to him now. Those are things that were said before plan B. Will you read my other post? I have a question I just wrote. I'm really trying to follow the Plan. I have so far but my couselor appt has really confused me. Before the Plan B letter we spoke some but not really that much. Is that still cake eating? We were only talking about issues with the kids mostly. Any conversation with him meets some of his needs?

puppylove10 - I hear your confusion, and that is the issue that these 'tough posts' have been trying to address, to hopefully open your eyes and your understanding, not to "beat you up."

So let's give it "one more try, eh?"

"Before the Plan B letter we spoke some but not really that much. Is that still cake eating?"

It isn't for you, but it is for your husband.

For you it's an act of desperation that we all (BS's) understand.

For your husband, it's a way to continue NOT being married and to "fish in two ponds" at the same time.


I'm a big believer in keeping the lines of communication open AS LONG AS THERE IS AN ATTEMPT BY THE WS TO END THE AFFAIR and recognize that their ACTIONS are wrong.

But in your case, your husband continually refuses to end the affair and gives you "cake eating" lip service that "he isn't sure if he wants a divorce" to keep you on the line and to put off his having to DECIDE.

Plan A IS for that sort of situation, to make necessary changes in yourself that might be needed AND to let the WS that his/her "reasons" for their choosing an affair as their answer to their perceived or real marital "problems" is an "okay choice."

Plan B is for when the WS refuses or is unwilling to respond to Plan A efforts to end the affair, and/or their perceived reason for why the affair seems like a "good choice" to them.

Plan B IS an ultimatum. Plan B "stakes out" your BOUNDARIES and MAKES IT CLEAR what your response to willful violations of those boundaries will be. "END the affair." "I am nearing the end of my ability to hold onto you in the face of your unwillingness to be MARRIED, per your VOWS, and if I don't see an end to the affair, then the marriage IS over and I will then proceed to granting you your freedom to do what you wish while protecting myself and the children from your selfish self-centeredness."

"The clock is ticking. How long will it tick before it reaches 'zero hour'?"

"Because when it does reach zero, the events will happen no matter what we might want or despite any last minute 'I'm sorry's."

Your counselor has correctly assessed your situation and is the person with the most data, due to the face to face talks with her. You can choose to listen to her or not to listen to her.

The choice IS yours, as is ownership of the consequences of your choices, just as "plan B" says to your husband.

Yes it does leave it up to him. But YOU set the conditions in your Plan B letter. He either meets YOUR conditions and works to create your ideal marriage or not. It is black and white and not open to negotiation. If you allow him contact, he will continue to attempt some version of cake eating. See, he doesn't respect you at all right now. By demanding that he meet your conditions, you are also commanding his respect as well. Without respect, there is no hope for a successful marriage.

Thanks. I know I'm not being beaten up. I appreciate everyone's comments. I really feel like I'm failing at this. Hopefully, just my mood. Is there really any hope for my marriage after all of this? I'm tired. I just don't feel like anything I do will make a difference right now. Have I just let it go on too long.

PL10

WH is having some of his needs met by you and some met by the OW.

Hence the name fence sitter for WH will not decide he wants the OW or you. Or the cake eater in he wants his cake and eat it too.

Both of you are meeting some of his needs. There is no motivation for you WH to give up either one of you for all of his needs are being met.


"I don't see how that creates a crisis for him. At this time he's still fogged out so he isn't sitting around thinking maybe my wife has had enough of this, and might leave me if I don't end this affair."

The plan b does not work the way you think it does. It's not to get him thinking that you have had enough. That's why you can not see how plan b is effective.


When you go NC with your WH you are right that he will be all over the OW.

Say your husband has 8 needs the OW is only willing or capable to fill 2 of them. Your husband will start to miss his other needs being met. This is where the OW fails your WH and he looks for some one to meet all of his needs.

During plan a you showed your WH that you can and are willing to meet all of his needs.

WH dumps OW because he will be happier with you. Most affairs are not because some one wants to divorce their BS. Just get more needs met. They want to have an OP but do not want to lose the BS. Plan b forces them to wake up and get rid of the OP before they lose what's important to them.

The Road- Thanks. If my WH doesn't really want a divorce why did he say he wanted one? Do a lot of WS say that but don't really mean it? Or does he mean it right now because he's fogged out? Last discussion about divorce he said lets wait a while. Again, he has to be careful what he says to me because he doesn't know if I will tell the OW what he said.

TheRoad- My other concern is that the OW has no children. When they spend time together it's uninterupted. She has money so she pays for everything. To me there seems to be little stress to their relationship. How would it just not grow under those circumstances. She has no responsibilties except her job. She eats out all the time and has people do the chores around her house. My Saturday is filled with yardwork..hers laying out by a pool with drinks. What's more appealing????? What needs could she not meet of my husbands?

Puppylove,

I can't be certain why your counselor would give you the advice that you have to put a time limit on your Plan B.

I do know that when my H and I saw an MC, she was very anxious for ME to make up MY mind as to what I wanted to do and how long it was going to take me to do it. She appeared to be very frustrated when I would say to her that I wanted my marriage to heal and work and that I was certainly not READY to make a decision to end it.

Whenever I would talk about my frustration with our situation, she would say, "So....the ball is in your court. What is your next move?"

She told me that my H would NEVER change and that I had to accept that or move on. We stopped seeing her at that point.

It took me a long time to realize that she was trying to get me to make some kind of decision. I thought we were on the same page and that she was helping me process my feelings.

In their defense(loosely, though), this is how they are trained. They think you should be doing things INTUITIVELY. For example, give your H an ultimatum that will FORCE him to make a choice. This is INTUITIVE because it FEELS kind of good to say to someone who is hurting you, "Look buster, choose her or choose me and do it by such and such a date. The clock is ticking." It makes you FEEL in control, but does not really give you any control.

MB is COUNTER-INTUITIVE. You do the things that do NOT come naturally and FEEL like they could not possibly WORK. Your counselor seems to think that your WH and the OW will BOND more if you have NO CONTACT with him. No, the point is that when contact with you is cut off, your WH is likely to go into a panic(maybe not immediately), because he can no longer see you or talk to you and is STUCK with JUST the OW. You do not need to concern yourself about whether or not he is "bonding" with the OW. THAT is COMPLETELY out of your control.

Sounds backwards doesn't it?

That's because,yes, just conversation with you meets a need for him. Sometimes just the sight of you meets his need for a "fix" of you.

Intuitively, it feels like you should be finding a way to win him back. Counter-intuitively, you cut off all contact to protect your love FOR HIM.

I think Love Must Be Tough is very similar but does not go far enough because it does not effectively lay out conditions for return, and because it does not establish NC with the wayward spouse.

Think of it this way. Because your WH refuses to have NC with the OW and write a NC letter, YOU have written HIM a NC letter and are going to have NC with him.....unless and until he meets your conditions for return.

Blessings,
WH2LE

I read that you are in a panic. Again, counter-intuitively, remind yourself that your WH and OW are living in fantasy land. When they are forced to spend all their time together, when your WH finds out that the has to pay CS and the OW finds that she is NOT the only thing in WH's life, the fantasy dies.

Really.

As long as YOU maintain NC with your WH. Dark, dark, dark.

Their affair is built on fantasy lies. You seem to believe it's as real as they do. Why?

Have you read the other threads I suggested?


WH2LE

Puppylove,

I thought I was current with all the posts on both of your threads, but I had apparently missed a few important ones.

I feel a little silly because I have given you exactly the same advice that you have already received.

Is there a reason you are not taking this advice from the vets?

WH2LE

When we got M, our chances was 50-50. When our spouse wayward and unrepentant after D-Day, our chances dropped to 10%. Any method to save your M is only to work on your odds. You have to follow one way and follow it well. In MB, plan B w/o good plan A is suicidal. There is no half baked plan B.


You need to go into plan B b/c you will loose whatever love left for your WH soon. IMVHO. Call Jennifer C. from Harley's and follow her advice completely to guide you in plan B.

rh

Wkng- Thanks for your replies. You are telling me the same thing as the others. It's not like I'm not in Plan B. Just in the beginning and of course questioning what doesn't seem to be helping. You explained it very well. I thank you and all the others trying to help me. I was doing very well until I saw the counselor. She is also encouraging me to make a decision about my marriage that I'm not ready to make yet. It just makes me question what I'm doing because I want the best possible outcome.

puppylove,

I am just trying to clarify this for you. You DO understand, don't you, that you do NOT need to make a decision regarding your marriage at this time don't you? If the counselor presses you to do that, say clearly, "I am not ready to make that decision now. Let's move on to my PERSONAL issues." If she doesn't, end the session and find a new counselor.

Plan B is FOR YOU!!! I am not sure what you mean by it NOT WORKING?

Have you read those threads yet?

WH2LE

Thanks for writing back! Thanks for the encouragement. That is my problem. I feel like I have to make a decision now. I've been thinking about it all weekend. She seems to think that I am letting him fence sit by not doing anything. She thinks if I give him a date and he doesn't respond then file for D. That is the only way to get him off the fence is to make him deal with the possibility of really losing me. He knows I would take him back and work on our marriage if he meets my conditions. So why hurry and make a decision. He can just have his affair and enjoy, meanwhile my kids and I are having to put up with it. She said he will either commit to the marriage at that time or leave to be with the OW. "At least I will know". Otherwise I can sit around yet another 6 months. Yes, I know I will be working on myself etc but if he thinks I will take him back he will never feel what it is like to lose me. Thank you for helping me.

My friend thinks he doesn't want to ever come back home. He's just dragging this out so he doesn't have to deal with a divorce etc. That he's being selfish by asking me to wait awhile. When I asked him if he was ever going to come back home one day he replied," I can't right now". Why not just say "NO" if you aren't confused about it and Know you don't want to come back. Why leave that open? I disagree with my friend I think he is confused about what he wants to do with our marriage or he would have divorced me long time ago. What do you think from your experience?

I think you are listening to TOO many people. Your counselor and friend are obviously not on board with MB principles. If you are interested in doing this the MB way, then you need to understand that it is a very NARROW road. You are walking the wide path now. Trying to come up with a way to FORCE your H to do SOMETHING. Not gonna work.

I am not sure what you want to hear, but I will only say the same thing I have before. Read the threads about Plan B. STOP talking and listening to your WH. He is a fog-driven alien, not the man you married. Waywards lie and lie and lie some more. Nothing he says is of any value.

Make it easy on yourself. Plan B the MB way. And once and for all, stop worrying about what your WH is going to do next.

Start reading. Take the advice that has been given you.

Plan B may or may not save your marriage, but if you do it properly, it WILL save YOU. Do you realize that even if your H is gone for good, YOU are going to have to survive and take care of your kids????? Get yourself in a better position to do this.

Come here to get support for Plan B.
Stop panicking.
Force YOURSELF to do things and stop trying to force your WH.

I, personally, could care less what your friend or your counselor thinks. They do not have MB ideas and I think their advice is unlikely to work for either you OR your WH.

Have you read the threads I suggested?

WH2LE

You don't have to make a decision regarding divorcing or not divorcing until such time as YOU think it's time.

This is YOUR timeframe, not someone else's. Never lose sight of that.

Your counselor seems to be projecting what SHE would do in your situation, and that is not healthy if you are not "in sync" with her thoughts.

Here's the bottom line, puppylove, it is YOUR choice as the Betrayed Spouse to choose to divorce or to choose to do whatever you can do to try to save your marriage. You can choose "how long" you will try. You WILL get guidance and opinions from everyone, including those of us on MB, but the DECISION is yours and yours alone.


WH2LE was "right on the money" on this one.



You are. So what? SHOCK and disbelief are NORMAL, as is a feeling of being both "paralyzed" and "desperate to try anything." But once you begin to get a grip on your emotional shock, rational thought becomes available and the ability to choose a PLAN of ACTION becomes possible.

Plan A IS "doing something."

Plan B IS "doing something."

Divorcing IS "doing something."

Attempting recover when the WS is willing to try IS "doing something."

Enduring for love IS "doing something."

"Doing nothing" may not involve much effort and may not be as scary, but it gets you what you put into it....nothing.



Yesireee....ultimatums WILL have a result. Setting a date for someone involved in a "Class II" affair is ridiculous BEFORE you have worked a plan. What your counselor is advising, in the "How to save a marriage" game, is to put the cart before the horse and ignore everything except "her or me...NOW!"

Guess what? It doesn't work UNLESS you WANT a divorce or a "forced relationship."

Puppylove, Plan B WILL force him to "deal with the possibility of really losing" you. But it does so from the standpoint of trying to break the fantasy bubble through letting the OP meet ALL of his EN's, not just a few of them. As reality begins to impinge on the fairytale fantasy that is an affair, it has a "nasty way" of making someone actually THINK about what they've been doing and where it is heading.

That's called "destablizing the affair." Once that happens, progress can be made.

The KEY in all of this is the Betrayed Spouse. It assumes that a BS is willing to work through the Recovery problems and issues rather than just "dump his dumb butt right now!"

MB is FOR people who want to try to save their marriages, even if the WS never comes around and they do wind up divorced.




This tells me rather plainly that your counselor really has little understanding of what it TAKES to save a marriage that has been decimated by adultery. Your counselor operates from an "either/or" viewpoint rather than a "both/and" viewpoint. That is the "essence" of Plan B. "I both love you and want to rebuild a marriage with you AND I will not allow myself to be further abused by you while you can't 'make up your mind.'"

You counselor sees things as a "win/lose" outcome, and MB sees things as a "win/win" outcome, even if the efforts end in a divorce. Ask any of the BS's on the system who's marriage ended in a divorce if they, themselves, did not emerge better and stronger as a result of the EFFORT, not the result.

I wish I have you talk with my friend Mortarman. He endured a long time in trying to save his marriage, only to have it finally reach the point where the only "option" left was to divorce his wife.

Then, along comes God, in His timing, and puts a softened heart into his wife, stops the divorce, begins reconciliation attempts, moves to a commitment and a rekindling of love, and then to a pregancy and they are today a "success story" of love and endurance and trust and the power of God when all seems hopeless to us mere mortals.

When I told my wife to pack up and leave the day she told her OM "I want you" when all three of us were standing 3-5 feet from each other, I thought my marriage WAS over and my "pack up and leave" was an acknowledgment that she had chosen.

God intervened. It took less that 5 minutes after she "left for good."

Puppylove, "these three things remain, faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love."

Plan B is a form of love that says, "these are my Standards and these are my Boundaries. I love you and in order to protect the love that remains, I have to stop the abuse of your continuing choice to commit adultery and betray your vows to me and our children. If you choose to leave us, I will live with that choice. If you choose to end the affair and work with me to rebuild a loving marriage, that is what I desire. But I can no longer allow you to continually choose to hurt me and the children while you play with the OW and her abusive daughter."

Boundaries, consequences. You need them and you need to be ready to "go with the consequences.

IF you don't understand what Standards and Boundaries are, then learn about them BEFORE issuing a Plan B.




Your friend is right. NO active Wayward Spouse "wants to come back home." But MANY have come back home when the fantasy bubble bursts and reality hits.

He IS being selfish. That is the nature of Adulterers, especially those who are active. We are ALL "selfish" to an extent, as part of our "human nature," or our "sin nature." ACTING on the selfishness is the "main problem."

He said "I can't right now" because he doesn't know how to extricate himself from his CHOICES. He's afraid someone will get hurt. BIG SHOCKING ALERT!!!! - - - Someone WILL get hurt.

The question is "what is the right thing to do even if someone winds up getting hurt?"

But when he is "with" the OW, the fantasy bubble closes in and he can avoid facing the FACT that he IS going to have to make a choice.

Puppy,

Remember I spoke of IMPATIENCE?? And how plan B is not for the impatient?

You don't have to make any decision at present, except to stay in plan B.

"I disagree with my friend I think he is confused about what he wants to do with our marriage or he would have divorced me long time ago. What do you think from your experience?"

You must come to the realization that your cake eating fence sitting low life wayward husband is MANIPULATING YOU!!!

He is about as confused about this as a fox in a hen house!! This is cold hearted, self-centered MANIPULATION. That is how cake eating fence sitters get away with having their cake (YOU) and eating it too (OW).

You have this picture in your mind of your WH as some poor little lost soul that is sooooo unhappy because he is sooooo confused!!

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! You must wake up to this fact! It will make the plan B go much smoother.

IMHO

kirk

Foreverhers/Wkng/Krusht-
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!! The time you all put into helping me will never go unnoticed. I see now how Plan B really works. You're right...I am listening to too many people. I have a great network of friends and family and they just don't want to see me hurt. I feel so relieved. I just wasn't ready to give up yet. I was afraid to give an ultimatum to a man who isn't thinking rationally. I will work on improving myself, enjoy my children, and remind myself daily that there is nothing I can do to to bring my husband home. I'm not God. Only he knows why this is happening. Thank you all so much. It is very special to have people who you've never met stand by you and help during such a terrible time in your life. I hope I can help someone going through the same thing one day. I feel strong. I can do this!!!!!

Yes you can!! Amen!!

Thanks for your support!!! Everytime I think I want to contact my husband I'm going to read my post and come here to remind me why I shouldn't. I'm hoping everyday will get easier.

Yes puppylove, you can do this.

PLEASE read those Plan B threads!!!! The advice and experience you will get from them is priceless.

Now, do you have a Plan B mediator so that you are able to avoid ALL contact with WH???? This is ALL important!!! He needs to be cut off COMPLETELY from you. ANY contact of ANY kind will meet a need. The OW has to be put into the position of meeting all his ENs. It is HIGHLY unlikely she can DO that. (It makes me chuckle a little when I realize what a shock they are in for..hee, hee...please forgive me)

WH2LE

Wkng- I don't have a mediator in place. When I couseled with Jennifer she suggested I just email. The emails that are sent to me will be read by someone else first, screened, then info passed on to me. So I can't even let him see me? The darker the better. Got it. Thanks again for your help.

Pup

Stay the course, puppylove! You are stronger than you think. I am no veteren on this site. Oh..far from it. But I CAN tell you that the people here are your best support unit and advisors. They have all gone thru the same pain as you so you know, you are not alone!!

And...when you feel like kicking your H's ho right in the butt, you can vent here and we will all understand!! lol