TheRoad- My other concern is that the OW has no children. When they spend time together it's uninterupted. She has money so she pays for everything. To me there seems to be little stress to their relationship. How would it just not grow under those circumstances. She has no responsibilties except her job. She eats out all the time and has people do the chores around her house. My Saturday is filled with yardwork..hers laying out by a pool with drinks. What's more appealing????? What needs could she not meet of my husbands?

Puppylove,

I can't be certain why your counselor would give you the advice that you have to put a time limit on your Plan B.

I do know that when my H and I saw an MC, she was very anxious for ME to make up MY mind as to what I wanted to do and how long it was going to take me to do it. She appeared to be very frustrated when I would say to her that I wanted my marriage to heal and work and that I was certainly not READY to make a decision to end it.

Whenever I would talk about my frustration with our situation, she would say, "So....the ball is in your court. What is your next move?"

She told me that my H would NEVER change and that I had to accept that or move on. We stopped seeing her at that point.

It took me a long time to realize that she was trying to get me to make some kind of decision. I thought we were on the same page and that she was helping me process my feelings.

In their defense(loosely, though), this is how they are trained. They think you should be doing things INTUITIVELY. For example, give your H an ultimatum that will FORCE him to make a choice. This is INTUITIVE because it FEELS kind of good to say to someone who is hurting you, "Look buster, choose her or choose me and do it by such and such a date. The clock is ticking." It makes you FEEL in control, but does not really give you any control.

MB is COUNTER-INTUITIVE. You do the things that do NOT come naturally and FEEL like they could not possibly WORK. Your counselor seems to think that your WH and the OW will BOND more if you have NO CONTACT with him. No, the point is that when contact with you is cut off, your WH is likely to go into a panic(maybe not immediately), because he can no longer see you or talk to you and is STUCK with JUST the OW. You do not need to concern yourself about whether or not he is "bonding" with the OW. THAT is COMPLETELY out of your control.

Sounds backwards doesn't it?

That's because,yes, just conversation with you meets a need for him. Sometimes just the sight of you meets his need for a "fix" of you.

Intuitively, it feels like you should be finding a way to win him back. Counter-intuitively, you cut off all contact to protect your love FOR HIM.

I think Love Must Be Tough is very similar but does not go far enough because it does not effectively lay out conditions for return, and because it does not establish NC with the wayward spouse.

Think of it this way. Because your WH refuses to have NC with the OW and write a NC letter, YOU have written HIM a NC letter and are going to have NC with him.....unless and until he meets your conditions for return.

Blessings,
WH2LE

I read that you are in a panic. Again, counter-intuitively, remind yourself that your WH and OW are living in fantasy land. When they are forced to spend all their time together, when your WH finds out that the has to pay CS and the OW finds that she is NOT the only thing in WH's life, the fantasy dies.

Really.

As long as YOU maintain NC with your WH. Dark, dark, dark.

Their affair is built on fantasy lies. You seem to believe it's as real as they do. Why?

Have you read the other threads I suggested?


WH2LE

Puppylove,

I thought I was current with all the posts on both of your threads, but I had apparently missed a few important ones.

I feel a little silly because I have given you exactly the same advice that you have already received.

Is there a reason you are not taking this advice from the vets?

WH2LE

When we got M, our chances was 50-50. When our spouse wayward and unrepentant after D-Day, our chances dropped to 10%. Any method to save your M is only to work on your odds. You have to follow one way and follow it well. In MB, plan B w/o good plan A is suicidal. There is no half baked plan B.


You need to go into plan B b/c you will loose whatever love left for your WH soon. IMVHO. Call Jennifer C. from Harley's and follow her advice completely to guide you in plan B.

rh

Wkng- Thanks for your replies. You are telling me the same thing as the others. It's not like I'm not in Plan B. Just in the beginning and of course questioning what doesn't seem to be helping. You explained it very well. I thank you and all the others trying to help me. I was doing very well until I saw the counselor. She is also encouraging me to make a decision about my marriage that I'm not ready to make yet. It just makes me question what I'm doing because I want the best possible outcome.

puppylove,

I am just trying to clarify this for you. You DO understand, don't you, that you do NOT need to make a decision regarding your marriage at this time don't you? If the counselor presses you to do that, say clearly, "I am not ready to make that decision now. Let's move on to my PERSONAL issues." If she doesn't, end the session and find a new counselor.

Plan B is FOR YOU!!! I am not sure what you mean by it NOT WORKING?

Have you read those threads yet?

WH2LE

Thanks for writing back! Thanks for the encouragement. That is my problem. I feel like I have to make a decision now. I've been thinking about it all weekend. She seems to think that I am letting him fence sit by not doing anything. She thinks if I give him a date and he doesn't respond then file for D. That is the only way to get him off the fence is to make him deal with the possibility of really losing me. He knows I would take him back and work on our marriage if he meets my conditions. So why hurry and make a decision. He can just have his affair and enjoy, meanwhile my kids and I are having to put up with it. She said he will either commit to the marriage at that time or leave to be with the OW. "At least I will know". Otherwise I can sit around yet another 6 months. Yes, I know I will be working on myself etc but if he thinks I will take him back he will never feel what it is like to lose me. Thank you for helping me.

My friend thinks he doesn't want to ever come back home. He's just dragging this out so he doesn't have to deal with a divorce etc. That he's being selfish by asking me to wait awhile. When I asked him if he was ever going to come back home one day he replied," I can't right now". Why not just say "NO" if you aren't confused about it and Know you don't want to come back. Why leave that open? I disagree with my friend I think he is confused about what he wants to do with our marriage or he would have divorced me long time ago. What do you think from your experience?

I think you are listening to TOO many people. Your counselor and friend are obviously not on board with MB principles. If you are interested in doing this the MB way, then you need to understand that it is a very NARROW road. You are walking the wide path now. Trying to come up with a way to FORCE your H to do SOMETHING. Not gonna work.

I am not sure what you want to hear, but I will only say the same thing I have before. Read the threads about Plan B. STOP talking and listening to your WH. He is a fog-driven alien, not the man you married. Waywards lie and lie and lie some more. Nothing he says is of any value.

Make it easy on yourself. Plan B the MB way. And once and for all, stop worrying about what your WH is going to do next.

Start reading. Take the advice that has been given you.

Plan B may or may not save your marriage, but if you do it properly, it WILL save YOU. Do you realize that even if your H is gone for good, YOU are going to have to survive and take care of your kids????? Get yourself in a better position to do this.

Come here to get support for Plan B.
Stop panicking.
Force YOURSELF to do things and stop trying to force your WH.

I, personally, could care less what your friend or your counselor thinks. They do not have MB ideas and I think their advice is unlikely to work for either you OR your WH.

Have you read the threads I suggested?

WH2LE

You don't have to make a decision regarding divorcing or not divorcing until such time as YOU think it's time.

This is YOUR timeframe, not someone else's. Never lose sight of that.

Your counselor seems to be projecting what SHE would do in your situation, and that is not healthy if you are not "in sync" with her thoughts.

Here's the bottom line, puppylove, it is YOUR choice as the Betrayed Spouse to choose to divorce or to choose to do whatever you can do to try to save your marriage. You can choose "how long" you will try. You WILL get guidance and opinions from everyone, including those of us on MB, but the DECISION is yours and yours alone.


WH2LE was "right on the money" on this one.



You are. So what? SHOCK and disbelief are NORMAL, as is a feeling of being both "paralyzed" and "desperate to try anything." But once you begin to get a grip on your emotional shock, rational thought becomes available and the ability to choose a PLAN of ACTION becomes possible.

Plan A IS "doing something."

Plan B IS "doing something."

Divorcing IS "doing something."

Attempting recover when the WS is willing to try IS "doing something."

Enduring for love IS "doing something."

"Doing nothing" may not involve much effort and may not be as scary, but it gets you what you put into it....nothing.



Yesireee....ultimatums WILL have a result. Setting a date for someone involved in a "Class II" affair is ridiculous BEFORE you have worked a plan. What your counselor is advising, in the "How to save a marriage" game, is to put the cart before the horse and ignore everything except "her or me...NOW!"

Guess what? It doesn't work UNLESS you WANT a divorce or a "forced relationship."

Puppylove, Plan B WILL force him to "deal with the possibility of really losing" you. But it does so from the standpoint of trying to break the fantasy bubble through letting the OP meet ALL of his EN's, not just a few of them. As reality begins to impinge on the fairytale fantasy that is an affair, it has a "nasty way" of making someone actually THINK about what they've been doing and where it is heading.

That's called "destablizing the affair." Once that happens, progress can be made.

The KEY in all of this is the Betrayed Spouse. It assumes that a BS is willing to work through the Recovery problems and issues rather than just "dump his dumb butt right now!"

MB is FOR people who want to try to save their marriages, even if the WS never comes around and they do wind up divorced.




This tells me rather plainly that your counselor really has little understanding of what it TAKES to save a marriage that has been decimated by adultery. Your counselor operates from an "either/or" viewpoint rather than a "both/and" viewpoint. That is the "essence" of Plan B. "I both love you and want to rebuild a marriage with you AND I will not allow myself to be further abused by you while you can't 'make up your mind.'"

You counselor sees things as a "win/lose" outcome, and MB sees things as a "win/win" outcome, even if the efforts end in a divorce. Ask any of the BS's on the system who's marriage ended in a divorce if they, themselves, did not emerge better and stronger as a result of the EFFORT, not the result.

I wish I have you talk with my friend Mortarman. He endured a long time in trying to save his marriage, only to have it finally reach the point where the only "option" left was to divorce his wife.

Then, along comes God, in His timing, and puts a softened heart into his wife, stops the divorce, begins reconciliation attempts, moves to a commitment and a rekindling of love, and then to a pregancy and they are today a "success story" of love and endurance and trust and the power of God when all seems hopeless to us mere mortals.

When I told my wife to pack up and leave the day she told her OM "I want you" when all three of us were standing 3-5 feet from each other, I thought my marriage WAS over and my "pack up and leave" was an acknowledgment that she had chosen.

God intervened. It took less that 5 minutes after she "left for good."

Puppylove, "these three things remain, faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love."

Plan B is a form of love that says, "these are my Standards and these are my Boundaries. I love you and in order to protect the love that remains, I have to stop the abuse of your continuing choice to commit adultery and betray your vows to me and our children. If you choose to leave us, I will live with that choice. If you choose to end the affair and work with me to rebuild a loving marriage, that is what I desire. But I can no longer allow you to continually choose to hurt me and the children while you play with the OW and her abusive daughter."

Boundaries, consequences. You need them and you need to be ready to "go with the consequences.

IF you don't understand what Standards and Boundaries are, then learn about them BEFORE issuing a Plan B.




Your friend is right. NO active Wayward Spouse "wants to come back home." But MANY have come back home when the fantasy bubble bursts and reality hits.

He IS being selfish. That is the nature of Adulterers, especially those who are active. We are ALL "selfish" to an extent, as part of our "human nature," or our "sin nature." ACTING on the selfishness is the "main problem."

He said "I can't right now" because he doesn't know how to extricate himself from his CHOICES. He's afraid someone will get hurt. BIG SHOCKING ALERT!!!! - - - Someone WILL get hurt.

The question is "what is the right thing to do even if someone winds up getting hurt?"

But when he is "with" the OW, the fantasy bubble closes in and he can avoid facing the FACT that he IS going to have to make a choice.

Puppy,

Remember I spoke of IMPATIENCE?? And how plan B is not for the impatient?

You don't have to make any decision at present, except to stay in plan B.

"I disagree with my friend I think he is confused about what he wants to do with our marriage or he would have divorced me long time ago. What do you think from your experience?"

You must come to the realization that your cake eating fence sitting low life wayward husband is MANIPULATING YOU!!!

He is about as confused about this as a fox in a hen house!! This is cold hearted, self-centered MANIPULATION. That is how cake eating fence sitters get away with having their cake (YOU) and eating it too (OW).

You have this picture in your mind of your WH as some poor little lost soul that is sooooo unhappy because he is sooooo confused!!

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! You must wake up to this fact! It will make the plan B go much smoother.

IMHO

kirk

Foreverhers/Wkng/Krusht-
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!! The time you all put into helping me will never go unnoticed. I see now how Plan B really works. You're right...I am listening to too many people. I have a great network of friends and family and they just don't want to see me hurt. I feel so relieved. I just wasn't ready to give up yet. I was afraid to give an ultimatum to a man who isn't thinking rationally. I will work on improving myself, enjoy my children, and remind myself daily that there is nothing I can do to to bring my husband home. I'm not God. Only he knows why this is happening. Thank you all so much. It is very special to have people who you've never met stand by you and help during such a terrible time in your life. I hope I can help someone going through the same thing one day. I feel strong. I can do this!!!!!

Yes you can!! Amen!!

Thanks for your support!!! Everytime I think I want to contact my husband I'm going to read my post and come here to remind me why I shouldn't. I'm hoping everyday will get easier.

Yes puppylove, you can do this.

PLEASE read those Plan B threads!!!! The advice and experience you will get from them is priceless.

Now, do you have a Plan B mediator so that you are able to avoid ALL contact with WH???? This is ALL important!!! He needs to be cut off COMPLETELY from you. ANY contact of ANY kind will meet a need. The OW has to be put into the position of meeting all his ENs. It is HIGHLY unlikely she can DO that. (It makes me chuckle a little when I realize what a shock they are in for..hee, hee...please forgive me)

WH2LE

Wkng- I don't have a mediator in place. When I couseled with Jennifer she suggested I just email. The emails that are sent to me will be read by someone else first, screened, then info passed on to me. So I can't even let him see me? The darker the better. Got it. Thanks again for your help.

Pup

Stay the course, puppylove! You are stronger than you think. I am no veteren on this site. Oh..far from it. But I CAN tell you that the people here are your best support unit and advisors. They have all gone thru the same pain as you so you know, you are not alone!!

And...when you feel like kicking your H's ho right in the butt, you can vent here and we will all understand!! lol