Anyone read Love Must Be Tough by Dobson? I'm seeing a counselor next week and she suggested I read it. I haven't gotten it yet but she did explain a bit about the book. Sounds a little like Plan B but not exactly. She said that my husband has to get off the fence as he would stay there for a very long time if he is allowed. She said she hasn't seen many men that don't divorce their wives from the onset of the affair. Just wondering if anyone would like to share their opinion about the book if you've read it and how it differs from Plan B. Also, if it does differ which is the best approach?

Here is an exerpt from "Love Must Be Tough" -

It is kind of like a Plan B, but without Plan A.


"Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.
This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture."

And I don't understand what she means by she hasn't seen many men who don't divorce their wives from the onset of an affair. The vast MAJORITY don't divorce their wives.

Believer- Thanks for the info. I'm looking forward to getting the book. Why don't the vast majority not divorce their wives? Are they waiting for us to do it so they are not the bad guys? Or do they cake eat for as long as they are allowed? Or do they just feel bad?

I've read Love Must Be Tough and I highly recommend it if you are Christian. It generally comports with Dr. Harley's Plan B.

I think the reason most wayward husbands don't divorce their wives is because usually the BW is providing some ENs that the OW isn't. It seems that the WH usually only initiates divorce proceedings if the OW pressures him to.

Thanks for your replies. The other woman in this case is married. I'm not sure if she will pressure him to get a divorce. I'm sure she will try though. My counselor seems to think I need to knock my husband off his fence. Her srategy is more in the line of Dobson not MB. I'm confused as to which way is more appropriate. I got the book and it is a bit more firm in that it's all or nothing. Right now, not in 6 months, 18 months etc. Any suggestions or comments?

Definitly your Tx has more insight about your trouble than us. Have you ask her why she recommend it ? How many clients of hers that has similiar situation and able to save their M ?. How many failed ? You have to be able to trust your counselor otherwise you are wasting your $.

Tough Love requires you acting based on righteousness. If you have doubts about your action, you might have regrets later.

MB requires you to plan A first to examine yourself and work on your self. Then Plan B.

Many methods out there, Divorce buster, is another one. However you are the ultimate decision maker and the recipient of it.

I choose MB and my previous M ended in Dv. However I have no regret and able to build a better M.

rh

I think that a lot of men just don't file for the D "just in case". And if you do not file for the D, they will think that they can come back at any time.

My exh did not file. I literally begged him to file so that I would know it was done. He did not. Why? I think that he was just used to me handling everything, and I finally had enough, and filed on my own.

So I think it is lack of motivation, wanting to keep their foot in the door, and not wanting to be the bad guy.

Puppylove10 - are you up for some "hard talkin' reality?"

I think your posts (having gone back read your entire "Cruise" thread) and your chosen username sort of go "hand-in-hand."

Let's look at your latest....


Answer: who the heck cares? You aren't going to DO what is advised anyway. That has become eminently clear.

You are using things to try to manipulate a response from your husband.

Let me be very blunt; after some 6 months of "plan A" and it was completely ineffective (including his back home, leave home, take a cruise with the ho ho homewrecker [who by the way is exactly the same sort of cakeeater your husband is], and your inability to DO what needs to be done, it doesn't matter what "plan" you implement because you are going to do what you want to do anyway.

I, for one, cannot believe that you have been in Plan B for almost 3 weeks and you are still choosing to sabotage it and do what you want. The only time you seemed to have actually gotten any "Righteous Anger" was when your husband wanted to take your kids to see the "friend" OW. THAT's when he "got the message."

But the only message he got was "don't mess with the kids and I can keep doing what I want to do and keep 2 "weak willed women" on the string indefinitely.

Puppylove10, Dobson is a Christian and his advice is primarily intended for Christians. I have seen NO mention of God in any of your posts, so it leaves me believing that BOTH you and your husband don't care what God has to say about anything. Therefore, keep on doing whatever you want to do, and your husband will likewise keep on doing whatever he wants to do.

To use "Tough Love" as a method of manipulation is to completely miss what Dobson said and why he said it.

And in the long run, the kids will pay for the chosen "mistakes" of the so-called 'adults' in this drama.

You want it "hard and fast?" Here it is: Complete dark Plan B. Make it clear that ONLY if he ends the affair immediately will you attempt to recover your marriage to him. If he does not, then tell him to file for Divorce and you'll see him in Court. Tell him he is "on the clock" and you will not "wait around indefinitely."

Why? Because "game time" is over. It's now time to "precipitated a crisis" wherein he "can't have it both ways." He has to CHOOSE. YOU will live your life and he can decide to be a part of it or not. But there is "no sharing" of spouses in a marriage because such behavior is NOT a marriage.

But YOU have to understand that Plan B IS an ultimatum. It is NOT for an indefinite timeframe. It has an end. End the affair or Divorce the marriage. YOU have to be ready to accept that FACT. One or the other, but not both.

Good luck. Stiffen your spine. STAND for what is right and let the "chips fall where they may."

Ok. Thanks Foreverhers for your response. I don't understand how Plan B is an ultimatum. I understand I'm saying I will have no contact with you until you end your affair. And that I put my own time limit on it. But, he doesn't know what my time limit is so won't he just think "great she's leaving me alone so I can have my affair uninterupted". I don't see how that creates a crisis for him. At this time he's still fogged out so he isn't sitting around thinking "maybe my wife has had enough of this, and might leave me if I don't end this affair.

You don't?

An ultimatum involves telling someone that they have to make a choice.

They can choose whatever THEY want to choose and you will live your life in response to their choice. You will live your life with them or without them, but NOT in opposition to what MARRIAGE is...."forsaking all others and keeping myself only unto YOU."

Period.

Plan B IS an ultimatum. CHOOSE, my WS. Choose the OP or choose me and our family. But you CANNOT have both.

Choose the OP, and you will no longer have the "option" to choose me and the children.

Don't you think that is an ultimatum? Don't issue it if you don't intend to stick by it, "to the bitter end" if need be.

Puppylove,

Have you actually READ Surviving an Affair? Or any of the articles on this site about affairs and Plan B?

One of the MAJOR reasons for Plan B is to CUT OFF CONTACT with YOU!!!!!!! It takes away your WH's ability to get his ENs needs met by BOTH women. It forces the affair OUT of fantasy land and into the REAL WORLD where your WH gets his ENs met ONLY by the OW. And the chances are that SHE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MEET ALL HIS ENS.

There is no guarantee that Plan B ends an affair and that a marriage can be restored.

And here is a very important point: PLAN B PROTECTS YOU!!! It protects you from the constant contact with your hurtful, foggy, WH. You don't talk to him, see him, or listen to anyone else talk about him. All contact is through a trusted mediator who filters information and gives you only what is absolutely necessary.

That is the point of Plan B. Go read Charlotte's thread. Read Queenies's thread. Read everything Mimi has ever written. You will see clearly how Plan B works.

Most important, if you are REALLY interested, read SSA, read all the articles on this site. Do your research and don't just wait for someone else to tell you how to do it. And certainly stop waiting for your WH to do something. He is having the time of his life. My H told me that in the middle of his A, he felt like he was a really great guy because he had 2 women. Yuck!! He is out of THAT fog now!!

It strikes me that you might be looking for a magic pill that works QUICKLY. Not gonna happen. Hard work and LOTS of it.

WH2LE

Thanks for your replys. I see that Plan B is an ultimatum but according to my Plan B letter it stated I will only talk to him when he is able to meet my conditions for reconciliation. Doesn't that send a message that he still has an "in" if and when he chooses. Doesn't that still sorta leave it up to him?
I've been in a Plan B. I do feel better some days some days I feel like he's having a great time with me out of the picture. I don't know what needs I'm really meeting of his right now. Before the Plan B letter he seemed OK about getting a divorce. He did however say lets give it some time. He's very careful about how he chooses his words. He won't come right out and say I don't want a divorce like he used to. He knows that if he does I would probably tell the other woman what he said. He's very vague about the whole divorce thing. He chooses his words carefully now.

If you are able to say that your WH chooses his words carefully, then you must be talking to him. If you are talking to him, YOU ARE NOT IN PLAN B. And you are allowing him to cake-eat.

GO READ ABOUT PLAN B!! Period.

WH2LE

I'm not talking to him now. Those are things that were said before plan B. Will you read my other post? I have a question I just wrote. I'm really trying to follow the Plan. I have so far but my couselor appt has really confused me. Before the Plan B letter we spoke some but not really that much. Is that still cake eating? We were only talking about issues with the kids mostly. Any conversation with him meets some of his needs?

puppylove10 - I hear your confusion, and that is the issue that these 'tough posts' have been trying to address, to hopefully open your eyes and your understanding, not to "beat you up."

So let's give it "one more try, eh?"

"Before the Plan B letter we spoke some but not really that much. Is that still cake eating?"

It isn't for you, but it is for your husband.

For you it's an act of desperation that we all (BS's) understand.

For your husband, it's a way to continue NOT being married and to "fish in two ponds" at the same time.


I'm a big believer in keeping the lines of communication open AS LONG AS THERE IS AN ATTEMPT BY THE WS TO END THE AFFAIR and recognize that their ACTIONS are wrong.

But in your case, your husband continually refuses to end the affair and gives you "cake eating" lip service that "he isn't sure if he wants a divorce" to keep you on the line and to put off his having to DECIDE.

Plan A IS for that sort of situation, to make necessary changes in yourself that might be needed AND to let the WS that his/her "reasons" for their choosing an affair as their answer to their perceived or real marital "problems" is an "okay choice."

Plan B is for when the WS refuses or is unwilling to respond to Plan A efforts to end the affair, and/or their perceived reason for why the affair seems like a "good choice" to them.

Plan B IS an ultimatum. Plan B "stakes out" your BOUNDARIES and MAKES IT CLEAR what your response to willful violations of those boundaries will be. "END the affair." "I am nearing the end of my ability to hold onto you in the face of your unwillingness to be MARRIED, per your VOWS, and if I don't see an end to the affair, then the marriage IS over and I will then proceed to granting you your freedom to do what you wish while protecting myself and the children from your selfish self-centeredness."

"The clock is ticking. How long will it tick before it reaches 'zero hour'?"

"Because when it does reach zero, the events will happen no matter what we might want or despite any last minute 'I'm sorry's."

Your counselor has correctly assessed your situation and is the person with the most data, due to the face to face talks with her. You can choose to listen to her or not to listen to her.

The choice IS yours, as is ownership of the consequences of your choices, just as "plan B" says to your husband.

Yes it does leave it up to him. But YOU set the conditions in your Plan B letter. He either meets YOUR conditions and works to create your ideal marriage or not. It is black and white and not open to negotiation. If you allow him contact, he will continue to attempt some version of cake eating. See, he doesn't respect you at all right now. By demanding that he meet your conditions, you are also commanding his respect as well. Without respect, there is no hope for a successful marriage.

Thanks. I know I'm not being beaten up. I appreciate everyone's comments. I really feel like I'm failing at this. Hopefully, just my mood. Is there really any hope for my marriage after all of this? I'm tired. I just don't feel like anything I do will make a difference right now. Have I just let it go on too long.

PL10

WH is having some of his needs met by you and some met by the OW.

Hence the name fence sitter for WH will not decide he wants the OW or you. Or the cake eater in he wants his cake and eat it too.

Both of you are meeting some of his needs. There is no motivation for you WH to give up either one of you for all of his needs are being met.


"I don't see how that creates a crisis for him. At this time he's still fogged out so he isn't sitting around thinking maybe my wife has had enough of this, and might leave me if I don't end this affair."

The plan b does not work the way you think it does. It's not to get him thinking that you have had enough. That's why you can not see how plan b is effective.


When you go NC with your WH you are right that he will be all over the OW.

Say your husband has 8 needs the OW is only willing or capable to fill 2 of them. Your husband will start to miss his other needs being met. This is where the OW fails your WH and he looks for some one to meet all of his needs.

During plan a you showed your WH that you can and are willing to meet all of his needs.

WH dumps OW because he will be happier with you. Most affairs are not because some one wants to divorce their BS. Just get more needs met. They want to have an OP but do not want to lose the BS. Plan b forces them to wake up and get rid of the OP before they lose what's important to them.

The Road- Thanks. If my WH doesn't really want a divorce why did he say he wanted one? Do a lot of WS say that but don't really mean it? Or does he mean it right now because he's fogged out? Last discussion about divorce he said lets wait a while. Again, he has to be careful what he says to me because he doesn't know if I will tell the OW what he said.