Torn between my wife and my lover..... - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I've been married for 13 years and we have two young children(6&4). She is a great mother and is good to me. We got married at a young age(22) and spent the first 7-8 years working our respective jobs and building our "nest egg". Life has been just "ok"....we don't do much together, and never have had the same kind of passion as I find with the OW. About a year ago, I was on a business trip and started an affair with another woman. At first, I think there was no intention of a long-term relationship, but we can't let go of each other, and now it's been almost a year. We are able to meet every couple of months(business travel) and for a while we were talking on the phone multiple times every day. She lives in AZ, and I'm in NC....so it's not easy to spend alot of face to face time together. She seems to be the ideal woman I had always dreamed of being with....she is sweet, loving, kind, beautiful in many ways. She is divorced and has 2 young children(11&6). She is also a very sexy and erotic lover, and we share many of the same sexual fantasies....this is something that I never have had with my wife. I am so confused by the strength and depth of my feelings for the OW....on one hand, I would love to spend the rest of my life with her and find/live the happiness that I've never had before. Then of course, I hate to leave/hurt my wife and kids. It's so hard to imagine not having my children in my house, and in my life everyday as they grow up. The OW wants me to decide to leave or work on my marriage(rightfully so...) and I am so confused as to what to do. It would be so hard for me to work on my marriage knowing the OW is still out there....and I wonder if it would ever be possible to have the same depth of feelings for my wife as I've had for the OW....we NEVER had the same kind of intimacy in our 13 years. I am so afraid of loosing what could possibly be the "right person" for me.....I've never ever felt so strongly loved by anyone...or felt so much love for another person. Is it possible to ever re-build the same type of passionate relationship when it never existed in the first place? Should I leave my wife and kids for the happiness of a long-term relationship with the other woman? Is it fair to stay married to my wife when I don't feel "in love" with her....more like roomates? This is so hard on both me, and the OW...we are both so madly in love with each other. We've tried breaking things off several times, but one or the other gets weak, and before you know it we are talking/emailing/and meeting again. Please advise....

Hello,I'll be short and to the point.Break off the adulterous relationship immediately.Tell your wife the truth.Find a good counselor to help you and your wife through this.Come here regularly for support.Get right with God.As a betrayed wife I can promise you that no amount of physical pleasure or good feelings is worth the hell you are putting your family through. Do your wife and children deserve the unfaithfulness you are demonstrating?You are living a little fantasy right now, seeing the other woman occasionally and always at her best. THIS IS NOT REALITY!I have a strong faith in God, and one belief that has been proven to me over and over is that no evil goes unpunished, and that there is a very good reason that avoiding adultery is one of the Ten Commandments.Also, ask yourself this question- have you ever known anyone to achieve true happiness based on making others miserable? I haven't, nor have I ever seen a marriage that was based on adultery succeed.By the way, I'm a North Carolinian too. Welcome. The fact that you are here shows that you know what you are doing is wrong. Stop doing it, change your ways, get the help you need. It is not easy, but it is possible to straighten out the mess you have created. We're here to support and encourage you. Please keep coming. Best wishes,Peppermint

To whatodo:Please feel free to e-mail me at chatwithu35@hotmail.com i am in same situation and its killing me........thanx........;-)

WhattodoPeppermint is right. Please spent a few hours reading this site...not just the letters but the columns and others. You find that most affairs do not work. They fail because they are bases on deceitfulness and thoughtfulness. They make so many people miserable including yourself. Break it off for the sake of your wife your kids, the OW and her kids and most of all yourself. As soon as the newest of emotion and sex wares off and reality sets in you will be sorry for what you have done and by then it may be to late to save your marriage. Get some help for both you and your wife and find out, after you have completely broken it off with the OW, about your wife. You married her for some good reasons...they are all still there you both just need to sort things out with some help.J Willy

whattodo,chatwithu35 offered you her email address. I don't think it's a good idea to be emailing a female when you are having these problems. It could turn into an amotional affair. If you seriously want to work on your marriage, quit seeing the OW. Yes, it will be hard. But it can be done. Read as much info here as you can. I'm sure others will give you more advice too. Take care, Mitzi

Welcome whattodo?...I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It has a lot of quick links to many of the most important MB sites... Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A>For some clarity... a while ago... the "main" forum was divided into 4 separate "sub" forums... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Just+found+out...&number=29&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Just found out...</A>...for those new the forum... pre/post "discovery" of an affair or possible affair. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Plan+A/Plan+B&number=30&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Plan A/Plan B</A>...usually after "discovery of the affair"...for those with questions of "what to do now?" <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=In+recovery&number=31&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>In recovery</A>...when a commitment to work on marriage by both spouses has begun. We are being asked to post the forums that make the most sense with respect to our questions/vents and not just dump everything into the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=General+Questions&number=28&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>General Questions</A> forum because it will give you the most responses! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

--------------------------------------------Now... about your post... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think there was no intention of a long-term relationship, but we can't let go of each other... and for a while we were talking on the phone multiple times every day... She seems to be the ideal woman I had always dreamed of being with... She is also a very sexy and erotic lover... I am so confused by the strength and depth o my feelings for the OW... I've never ever felt so strongly loved by anyone...or felt so much love for another person... we are both so madly in love with each other... should I stay married to my wife when I don't feel "in love" with her...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...These things you've said are a clear indication of how addictive an affair can be... The only thing missing is the ever present ("she's my soulmate")... and you probably were going to write that too...YOU MUST END THE AFFAIR...There are no ifs ands or buts about it...You will be leading yourself... the OW... and your whole family down a road of complete destruction... emotional, financial, and moral ruin!Yes.. there are success stories! Yours can be one too...Try and read up on the MB concepts and principles... find out why you've done this... find out (MORE IMPORTANTLY) how to fix it!Yes... IT IS "possible to have the same depth of feelings for my wife as I've had for the OW"!Yes.. IT IS POSSIBLE TO "re-build the same type of passionate relationship when it never existed in the first place"!The only good thing the OW has said to you is "(she)... wants me to decide to leave or work on my marriage..." HERE IS YOUR CHANCE! Make the only right decision your children will see was important to their lives!Do get the book...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A>... and if you can... to see where the affair will lead to if you don't stay with your W... get the book... <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393307077" TARGET=_blank>Private Lies : Infidelity and Betrayal of Intimacy</A> by Frank Pittman (it's an eye opener for wayward spouses like yourself!)We really want to help... Don't be scared off by the early replies... There are many waywards on this forum... Ask for their advice... for their insight!You are not alone! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

Hi, Everyone who has responded to you is giving you good advice based on a lot of painful experiences. Listen to them….As to your questions about achieving passion, fulfillment, etc. with your wife, although it never existed before….. I am here to tell you unequivocally that YES you can find those feelings and even better more lasting ones with your wife, but it won’t just happen. It takes work. Your wife is probably missing passion and excitement with you too, ya know. What have you done to ignite those fires? If she knows you value attractiveness/sexiness as one of you basic needs, don’t you think she might strive to be that for you? I underestimated that need in my H, thought I should dress like the schoolteacher that I am. Then I saw pictures of the OW. Lots of them. Lots of leg, lots of cleavage, SEXY poses. Well, that fired me up, because I am not unattractive. My entire wardrobe and my attitude have changed and my H now has a hard time keeping his hands off me. Give your wife a chance to grow and change. We did not have a very passionate marriage before all this, but now. … VAVA VOOM. Most of the changes have been mine, after I read The Ten Second Kiss by Ellen Kriedman. But once the OW was out of the picture, who do you think my H turned to for comfort during withdrawal, or for affection, admiration, and reaffirmation? ME, of course. And since I was aware of what our goal for our marriage was, and what he was going through to some extent in ending the affair, I was able to give him what he needed, and then some. You and your wife need to establish what you want in your marriage and then DO IT. But the OW can not be anywhere in the picture for it to work. I don’t have time to go any further into this now, but please listen to what the others here are telling you and realize that your relationship with your wife can change for the better. It won’t happen over night, but most certainly won’t happen if your energies are focused away from home. Both of you (all three of you) need to do a lot of reading, soul searching and growing.Good LUCKPilot’s WifeGood luck

whattodo,those poor kids. Mine are 5 and 2. Have you been able to keep up a good front at home, or do you find you are much more stressed out and taking it out on them and your wife???At least, that is what happened around here. It's hard to keep up a front. My h also had an OW on business trips. He managed to go more often, even though for him it was 10 hours of flying.Have you read any of Harley's material?? Do you know what folks mean when they say it is a fantasy??? The feelings are very real, just ask my h. But you are not raising children together, dealing with leaky roofs, bills, in-laws, etc.That's what they mean, if you were to marry her, you would have a reality check no matter how great she is.It's been almost 5 months since my h ended his affair. It was very hard for him, and he cried often on my shoulder. But he would be the first to tell you we have something far more wonderful, his feelings for me are already stronger. It can be done. It takes reevaluating everything together and we have followed Harley's methods and been in counselling.One last question, IF you could have a really wonderful relationship, would you want it to be with your wife, the mother of your children??The fact you said there was never passion doesn't matter either. Believe me, my h said the same thing. We mostly had to make some changes, spend the kind of time together he and OW spent - dating. I just got back from a business trip with him to Argentina, just the two of us. It was like a honeymoon, and he got his business done.

whattodo,This struggle is going to tell you a lot about your own character. I don't think it gets any tougher than this. Let me start with just a couple bullet points:* The feelings are certainly real, but are they based on reality? Or are you giving each other the cream, showing each other your best sides, and thinking that is the whole package? And what are you giving your wife?* Is the OW that impressive? She sounds like someone who has affairs with married men. Is that really something you admire? * OK, the sex is fantastic - you are living out your fantasies. You said your wife is "good to you" As pilot's wife said, if your wife knew that this area was making your marriage vulnerable she might be willing to work at it and improve this.I understand how tough this is. You are addicted, yes ADDICTED to a powerful drug. It kills you to think that walking away from OM is a real option. To avoid that your addicted mind will demonize your wife, convince you that you never really loved her, that she can't or won't change, that you deserve your happiness regardless of the effect on your wife and kids, etc.Nobody ever likes to hear this: You are experienceing a textbook case of infidelity.. I advise you not to email chatwithu35 because there is a real danger that you will form a mutual validation relationship = "at least you understand me, those other guys just don't understand how strong our feelings really are" Blah, blah, blah. Fixing your marriage will take an enormous amount of hard work, and that is AFTER the tremendous pain of confessing to your wife. It will take months, maybe even a year or two to start getting a healthy relationship. On the other hand you could walk out on your family today and be in OW's bed tonight. So easy - for you.In a way you are lucky, since being with OW requires you to abandon your family. That at least is making you think twice.You may get some flames. Unrepentant wayward spouses (WS) often do. Don't expect anyone here to say "Well, yeah, you are different, you should go for it with OW" That is NOT going to happen. However you will find an unending amount of support for working toward the repair and improvement of your marriage.For another perspective, read Jill's posts. She has struggled with strong feelings like yours, but has taken a stand that all of us here admire.Good luck. Keep reading and posting here. If you are religious, pray. If your aren't, you might want to think about what God can do to help you in very real ways in this situation.

Please, please listen to what the others are saying. As a betrayed spouse, there is nothing worse than your spouse living in such a fantasyland. My H always talked about me and the kids at work. How much he loved us, etc. Then, when ow came in the picture it all went down the drain. He has acted like the kids and I don't matter anymore as long as he is happy. The stresses of everyday life causes married people to pull apart. This doesn't mean that it will be any different after living with the ow. The same old problems will be there or different new problems. Right now, you are enjoying only the "fun" things with ow. It is up to you to help gain that feeling of "passion" with you wife. As long as you are seeing the ow you will not be able to give your mariage what it deserves. Also, children pick up on things quickly. They may not know exactly what is going on, but they will know if something is wrong. My son is 8 and he doesn't really understand that Dad is "having an affair" in the true meaning. He does understand that his dad abandoned him, his sister, and his mom. He understands that the ow takes up all of dad's time and dad really doesn't have much time to call or spend with him. He has even gone as far to ask me if I would leave him too. That statement broke my heart as the real victims of infidelity are the children. They are so innocent. Also, I believe kids learn their values from their parents. Do you want your children to think it is ok to have an affair on their spouses just bacause the "passion" is gone? Everything in life worth having is not easily gained. My H has lived with ow for 6 months. Well, they are moving apart at the end of this month. Why? Because neither of them was what the other thought during the fantasy. Now the reality has set in. Paying bills, dealing with both divorces, etc. My H even tells me how dumb she is and can't carry on an intelligent conversation. Something my H desires in a woman. But in the beginning I heard about how intelligent she was, blah, blah, blah. I hope that I do not sound harsh but it hurts to think another family is going down the tube because of the dishonesty of an affair. Your W and children deserve better and so do you. Post ALL the time because we will give all the support we can and help you try and build up your marriage. Take care.Tulip

Whattodo,Welcome to the forum. I have not read any replies to you , I wanted to get my reply in as soon as I read this.First off, at least you are still considering all this, thats the good thing. I want to say that it is totally unfair that you compare these 2 relationships as you are. Your wife, has given you herself 100%. You made a vow to her when you married. You have broken that vow. This other woman, has not been through what your wife has. Of course, your relationship with her seems so carefree. Kids have a way of changing the dynamics totally of a relationship. I am a little upset you would consider leaving your own kids behind to go with a woman and some OTHER MAN"S kids. Your children deserve the life you built for them, not OW's children. If she is so special, why isn't her ex in the picture? If she is so special, why doesn't she care that your wife will be left behind to pick up all this mess when you go to her. I am sorry to be disrespectful, but I have no tolerance for a woman who lets a marriage get wrecked like this.Can you honestly say you have given to your wife what you give to the other woman?? The phone calls and sharing the fantasies? Your wife, has been bogged down with kids and a career and taking care of a family, its tough work. Sex is a powerful thing and yes, we all have needs and fantasies, but what about your wife's fantasies? Do you two talk anymore or does all your conversation go to the other woman.I commend you for coming here and asking for advice. My advice is tell your wife the truth and save the marriage. It is not fair to her at all. Both of you can learn a lot from this site and all the information in the web site. Your wife may really want things to be different also, and this affair can and will change your relationship with her totally. Unfortunately, its a long hard road, but some people are better for it after they went through it.Don't leave your wife, and more importantly , your children, who you brought into this world. They deserve better. This OW will appear different when she has the everyday nitty gritty and her flaws will begin to show. She will demand you not speak to wife as much, etc, I see it with my own ex. I am telling you this from experience and what I see on this forum.This all feels fun and exciting and you feel justified in your search for this happiness you've never known, but you can have this with your wife withouth wrecking innocent kids lives. I am the betrayed. My Husband left me on xmas day for his "affair partner". He moved in with her. He has to take care of her and another man's child now. He pays her bills while our kids and I suffer (I work full time but was left with all the debt, which is partly his). I see him struggle with visitations, not wanting to give the kids back over, and the OW won't let him talk to me if she can help it.You think your life is complicated now, you are going to have it worse when you go with OW. Just remember, if she can have an affair with you while you are married, she can also do it to you after you leave your wife. Its happened. Good luck, be good to your wife, and work on the marriage , for your children's sake, for the sake of the marriage and your vows to your wife, and because its the right thing to do. You can't let other people make you happy, you find happiness within yourself. If this OW, gives you something your W does not, there is a reason, and W can replace the OW very easily. This OW will never be half as good as your wife.Prayers are with you. Sorry if this was long, it just hits a little too close to home for me. Dana

Whattodo, whattodo, whattodo?I'm sure that is a question you've been asking yourself for a long time now. All of us on this board are asking ourselves that, betrayed, betrayers, other persons. What in the he11 are we going to do?You're here because you're tired of living the lie. The affair, the lack of feelings for your wife, everything. You are confused at what you really want, big suprise there, I'm sure. Is this passionate, new relationship all it is made out to be, and,if it is, would it be worth throwing everything you've worked so hard for right out the window. Problem is, what if it isn't, what if this new relationship gets bogged down by life just as your current relationship is? Then you are a divorced dad with an ex-wife who cared a great deal for you, 2 children you get to see part-time, and you either end up alone, or with a woman who is no longer the wonderful passionate woman you fell in love with, but a woman with faults, annoying traits, and someone who isn't filled w/ love and passion everytime she sees you, because she sees you all the time now.Now I'm not trying to make your feelings for the OW any less, because they are real, but consider taking the time, effort, and thought that you currently give to the OW and re-direct them to your wife. Even a quarter of the time would probably see a huge difference in your wife's behavior towards you. Get some books, His Needs Her Needs, by Harley, The 5 Love Languages, by Chapman. Find out what your wife wants, needs, and expects from you and let her know what you want, need, and expect from her.You just need to read and post. Find out what other betrayers have done and are doing. Go through their pain of withdrawal and confusion at what to do. Empathize w/ some of the betrayed, find out what pain and misery this has caused in their lives and the lives of their children.You are here to save your marriage. You wouldn't come to Marriage Builders for any other reason. I doubt anyone will tell you that you are justified in your feelings for the OW and tell you to get that divorce and run to her. You would have done that already if that's what you really wanted. Follow some of the guidelines here, get the books that are recommended, consider telling your wife, and stop contact first and foremost. You can't make any kind of decision w/ the OW in your life right now.We'll be here for you, just keep posting and keeping us updated. ------------------ Allen sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

Whattodo?,First, Welcome to MB. You will get a lot of good advice, understanding and support here. I briefly scanned the other replys, but I'm limited on time right now, and wanted to post to you. Please, don't take offense at what I am going to say, it is ment in a Positive way, not as a criticism.....I want you to think about these things. You see the OW a couple of day every few months, and she is wonderful and exciting. You communicate by email and phone the rest of the time, and she is wonderful and exciting.... What about the other 23.5 hours of the other 87-90 days in between visits & phone calls??? Do you honestly believe that her whole life is this way? She is a Mom, just like your wife. She has chores, just like your wife. She does laundry, just like your wife. She cooks & cleans, just like your wife. She has bills & obligations, just like you and your wife. She works, cleans, cooks, takes care of 2 kids, and has 'down times', just like everyone else does.All you "see" is the wonderful and exciting, the FANTASY portion of her life. Have you ever wondered what the rest of it is like?? It's not glamorous and exciting, it's everyday life, just like you and your wife have, but probably worse, because she is a single parent.Now, look at what your wife has that OW does not.....YOUR kids HISTORY with you She knows your likes & dislikes (what you share with her, anyway) She takes care of YOU and YOUR KIDS, She knows more about you than you probably know about yourself. SHE LOVES YOU, not just for the exciting and wonderful person you are sometimes, but for the person you are EVERYDAY. She knows which is your favorite shirt, your favorite meal, etc....What you are seeing of the OW is just the dessert, you need to look at the ENTIRE PACKAGE, brussel sprouts and all.Now, just a couple of questions....When was the last time you and your wife went away for a few days ALONE? (no kids)What was it like?Have you ever told your wife of your fantasies? Has she ever been given the chance to fulfill them?Ok, I'll leave it at that for now. I do want to tell you again... Welcome to MB. We are all here for everyone.My thoughts & prayers are with you and your wife.Butterfly ------------------ There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. -- John Oliver HolmesThe opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. -- Elie Wiesel

TO ALL OFFERING SUPPORT AND ADVICE:WOW....I've been busy at work today and didn't get a chance to check back, and I amazed at all the sincere responses and advice. Some of them have been pretty mean towards the OW, but I'm just as much as fault as she is. My marriage was already in trouble before she entered the picture.This is NOT the first affair I've had ....just the first that I ever thought of leaving my wife for. Is it not possible that I married the wrong person? Everyone makes it sound as if this can never be the case, and that nothing good can ever come out of leaving a marriage..... Might she not be better off with one who truely loved her? Would my kids not be better off being raised in a house filled with true love between their parents? The OW was the one who gave me this site to post on for support and direction.....she says she wants happiness for me either by working on my marriage or by leaving my wife and being with her. Below is part of an email she just sent me regarding the responses i was getting from the forum: -------------------------------------------- nope, the whole point of that site is to BUILD MARRIAGES. There will be very few who will say otherwise....I wouldn't have pointed you there to benefit myself, ****. I think we both know what you SHOULD do........and since I'm not strong enough to actually do it, I am hoping that you will gain the strength you need from there to let me go. See, I truly believe it is the most unselfish thing that a person can do to let someone go in the name of love. I wasn't just telling you that in hopes you'd leave *******. I try to practice what I preach. I guess by leading you to the MB Site, that was my way of trying to be unselfish and let you go. Because I know I can't do it on my own. Maybe you'll gain the confidence to make your marriage work from reading thru the posts that you received. I hope that you will be honest though as you continue to post there and allow them to see that I am not the cause of your marriage being messed up. Maybe you'll get to the point where someone DOES say it's hopeless if you continue being honest about your feelings with respect to your marriage. Who knows?And if not, then great! You'll work on your marriage and life will be good for you and no one except me loses out. Better me than anyone else - right?damn these tears.I'm leaving early today. Probably around 3pm. just in case you need to talk. I'll be in my car after that for quite some time, picking up ********** on my old side of town (remember.....past where the point was) and then back home again so you can reach me by cell if you need to.hang in there baby......this will all be over soon......one way or another.ily,j. -------------------------------------------- Does she sound like the horrible person everyone paints the OW to be?

We try not to be too harsh towards the OW in any relationship. There are several betrayers who post here and are welcome. Honestly one of the people I have gotten closest to here is a betrayer and in my marriage I am the betrayed.The best advice I can give you is, stop contact with the OW and work on your marriage. If after trying the marriage is over, then you are free to do what you want. Leaving your wife and children and going directly to another woman is not very promising. Statistics show that most of these relationships don't last. Separation and divorce are hard enough on someone without a third person being involved. I am in the process of getting a divorce and have 3 sons (ages 10, 7 and 3). My older 2 sons have lost all respect for their father. My oldest one never wants to see him again. If my marriage was ending this is not the way it should have been. Take care, Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Some OP's are predators who get a kick out of messing with someone's marriage. Others just want a "safe" relationship with someone who can't commit. Still others are just unhappy people who fall into something they shouldn't have.Your OW sounds like the third category.She's telling you she's too weak to do the right thing, and has sent you here so YOU can do the right thing. And since you're married, perhaps that makes sense. Did she know you were married when you started the affair?Obviously she feels guilty. SHE knows what the right thing to do is. Do you?

Let me get this straight this is not your first affair and yet your current OW still wants you that; somehow things would be different if you and she get together.As long as you and your OW are still in contact you can never be objective about your marriage. Now that you've posted the email from your OW I think everyone has figured out who she is. She came here looking for advice was told to have no contact which obviously she hasnt done. Now she sends you here. Just what do you two want? This is MarriageBuilders site. If you want someone to tell you your marriage is hopeless there may some who will but for the most part you will receive the same advice that was given to your OW.[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited March 20, 2000).]

If you get nothing from what these other people have been saying, hear this from a woman who left a h and drug two little kids through a terrible divorce to be with the om. I married the om and I do love him dearly but my marriage is not without problems and if you'll refer to resolving conflict under my posting "advice" you'll see exactly what I mean. If you leave your wife, what you get will come at a hefty price and it might just mean what comes around goes around.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dazed and Confused: Did she know you were married when you started the affair?Obviously she feels guilty. SHE knows what the right thing to do is. Do you? --------------------------------------------Yes, I think she knew(had my ring on)....we met during a business function, at a bar after hours....we were both drunk and very attracted to each other and spent the night together. As far as "the right thing to do"....I wish it was so cut and dried as that. At times I wish I could develop the same closeness with my wife as I share with the OW. We can have such fun together.....we both have many of the same desires, and always have a blast when we are together. I NEVER had such love for my wife as what I feel for the OW even early on in our relationship ..... maybe this is a common feeling, but it seems so RIGHT being with her(the OW). I know I've mainly seen just the good side of the other woman, but damn it's a good side. I think things would be easier to decide if at one time I had had these feelings for my wife, and just knew we needed to work harder to get them back. I just keep wondering if I could ever get as close to my wife as i am to the OW.

Don't get me wrong but I think you will find that most of the betrayed here could have just added "blab, blab, blab" after the second sentence. I know I heard the same thing and MY WIFE NOW REALIZES SHE WAS OUT TO PUNISH HERSELF FOR FAILING IN OUR MARRIAGE. A typical thing I hear from her is "What the hell was I thinking". This OM actually disgusses her now. I am still haveing a lot of trouble with my marriage and getting it to work but the point here is that the OM was only filling a void. My sex life with my wife is and has been a joke for some time. I have no problem with fantasies the difference here is that I don't act on them. If I would I know I would be right in your shoes. Think about this, you only she her once every few months or so. YOUR DOING NOTHING HERE BUT DATING IN IT's EARLY stages. My sex life with my wife was unbelievable back then. You are living in a fantasy, check out the stories here and you see it for yourself. During the last 6-7 months my marriage has had a few good times (and I do mean a few) but I'll tell you NEVER BEFORE IN MY LIFE WAS MAKING LOVE AS GREAT AS IT WAS ABOUT 3 MONTHS AGO. It happened when we were clicking and things were going good. Passion had been dead in our marriage for a long time but it was brought back to life. If the best I ever had before was a 10 that night it was a 100. I'll be honest somehow me wife and I are back to having problems but the problems are between us right now and there are no 3rd parties. I don't know what has happened or why but I do have hope that we'll get back there. THE BIG POINT HERE IS THAT YOU CAN REBUILD YOUR MARRIAGE AND BETTER. If your marriage is to ever get over this it will have to be better then ever before. It will crush your wife to find out but if she loves you and the two of you do try and work it out I think you'll find she come back better then you can remember and I think you find this affair only pales in comparision. It's in your hands do you go with someone who you really don't know and only get to see when everything is perfect (just like when you were dating) or do you go with someone who was everything you wanted in life, someone who you know is there for you, someone that has helped though the good and the bad. Your marriage is no different then everyones here. We all screwed it up for one reason or another but look at the longer timers and listen to how there marriage is today. I don't to many of them yet but look for NSR and K. I have found them to be helpful. You may find Jill who had an affair 3 years ago of interest. She found out who she wanted to be with and is dealing with what to do now. There is a lot of help here, just ask

If you want to find those who have been here a while look at the topic "1000th post" they are all there ribbing each other

I can't help it I just saw something else and remembered something else when I saw you "I never loved my wife that much".I have know my wife fo 19 years but for months afterwards she talked about the hell she had to live in for the last 20 years. Do the math, here is a woman would was in "hell" when we were dating, when she told me to "SH_T or get off the pot". My wife and I were MADLY in love for many years but the affair magicly erased the memory. You'll find this to be common

I know exactly what your going through.I bet you feel so powertless and all used up..Well I'm rght there with you.It's like you can't help but think what if? What if this is the person I've been waiting for all my life.I'll miss my chance! But I guess the right thing to do is try and rebuild your marriage.Because after all there was a reason why you married her.Take care

"allow them to see that I am not the cause of your marriage being messed up."This is directed at your OW. I have always felt that you came to this forum in order to somehow relieve the guilt you feel about being involved in an adulterous relationship and to somehow justify this relationship. The above quote of course only confirms what I already knew. You were given support and advice but you have failed to follow any advice given here. As I have posted to your lover just what do you two expect to get here? In my opinion you two deserve each other. I mean look at the great beginning your relationship had: a drunken roll in the hay with a married man who has a history of infidelity. Does'nt get any better than that does it?

whattodo?I'm saddened when I read stories such as yours. The pain and suffering caused by infidelity leaves a tremendous wake in its path. Your story is no different. 13 years ago you promised your wife you would never forsake her for any other woman for any reason. You broke that vow (several times by your own admission) and you now question whether you married the right person. I would like to address your quotes - they are very common ones by betrayers : <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Might she not be better off with one who truly loved her?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YES! She deserves someone who loves her. Believe it or not she chose YOU! You told her you loved her. You even asked her to marry you. You selected her out of all others. You even promised that you would forsake all others for her alone. You also promised that no matter how difficult things got, you would work on them WITH her to make a happy life for both you. Before this horrible monster called infidelity entered our lives, no one ever thought it would cross our path. That happens to other people. We lose our focus n one another. The routine of life takes control and we soon find ourselves drifting apart. Instead of noticing the warning signs, one partner makes a decision that forever changes the life of everyone involved. That includes your spouse, your kids, the other person, their family, your relatives, your friends, and on and on. Long term marriages take work - hard work. Some survive infidelity - some don't. Your quote is a classic one used to justify your behavior. Rationalize that your wife would be happier without you and your decision to leave her is for her own good. She just doesn't know what's good for her. I hope you see this is a bunch of crap. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Would my kids not be better off being raised in a house filled with true love between their parents?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ABSOLUTELY!!! That is why your wife agreed to have your kids. You told her you loved her and you would always be there for her so she felt safe in giving birth to your children. This quote is more often used by men. You rationalize that your wife is a great mom and you are a terrible dad and it won't make much difference if you're not there. It may even be better for them if you go because they won't see you and your wife fighting. Again, this is a bunch of crap. Your kids have a much greater chance of good parents if they see that mom and dad can love one another through tough times as well as good ones. You are not only raising your kids, you're raising your grandchildren's parents! You need to understand you are caught up in the process of justifying your behavior. You've reduced your marriage to a state of being simply roommates. I tell you what - I guarantee your wife would love to feel all those icky in-love feelings again too. She never acted on her thoughts of having an affair - you did. Someone (namely YOU) needs to get things on the path of restoration. You have a serious issue in regards to infidelity. You've set a pattern in motion that is going to be tough to break. Your wife may or may not forgive you. Nobody deserves the pain inflicted by this. The emotional trauma is overwhelming - I know how it feels. I'm sure this other woman is a nice lady. The fact remains, YOU are the one who broke your marriage vow, not the other woman. You could have controlled the outcome - you chose not to. Instead, this woman fell for a married man. Here are your options: OPTION #1 - Tell the other woman thank you for recommending this website. Tell her thank you for being wise enough to recognize the destruction that is at hand. Tell her you're sorry for the pain you are about to inflict on her by saying goodbye. Tell her she deserves a single man who love her and not cheat on her later when things get rough. Tell her good bye. Muster up the courage to tell your wife what you've done. Tell her you want to get counseling together because you have a problem and your marriage has a problem. Tell her you will spend the rest of your life making it up to her. Tell her to never have blind trust in you again. Tell her you can both have a happy and loving marriage but it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of time to heal from this. Tell her you are sorry and that you love her. Tell her that you chose her above all others. And get help.OROPTION #2 - Tell your wife that you have been unfaithful to her. Tell her you are unwilling to work things out. Tell her she does deserve a man who will be honest and faithful. Tell her you're selfish. Tell her you'll take care of the kids and her financially. Tell her none of this was her fault. And give her this website address for support - she'll need it! Tell your kids that this isn't their fault either. Tell your lover that if she marries you, you will probably be unfaithful to her too. Tell your lover that if you decide to marry, there's less than a 25% chance it will last past 5 years. I apologize for being blunt, but you are in a fantasy right now and you can't see the reality that is so clear to the rest of us. I think you know what the right thing to do is - ball is in your court. We're here to help if you want to make the right decision. whattodo?'s lover Kudos to you for trying to save a marriage. I'm sorry for the hurt you are feeling from all this. You are a victim too. There's so much hurt from this. I suggest you no longer contact this man and try to get on with life without him. It will be hard, but it is the right thing to do. SHA------------------ There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

Dear whattodo?,I'd like to come at your problem from a different perspective. You've gotten lots of good advice on what to do, but I don't think it's reached you, at least not deep down. The reason is, your name is wrong!You chose the name 'whattodo?' But you already know what to do! Your name should be 'whytodo?' since that is really where you are struggling.Listen to your own words about your wife: "She is a great mother and is good to me." This isn't a rotten person who is ruining your life. You have the same type of mid-marriage staleness that virtually everyone goes through. Yet, you have been desperately searching for fulfillment, and, at least for the time being, believe you have found it with the OW.It can't last. On average, the 'in love' experience lasts two years, maybe a little longer if you see each other rarely. And that's without factoring in the guilt you will feel from destroying your existing wife and kids.Your everyday life leaves you empty inside, so you try to find true happiness in the arms of other women. I think we both know that can't be the 'answer' to the problem of why you feel empty.The true answer is that God created each one of us with an empty place deep inside that can only be filled by Him. Some try sex, others drugs, others success in business, but everyone is searching for meaning and fulfillment in life. But nothing else ever satisfies! Oh, there are brief periods where we think we have 'found it', but they never last.Stay married to your wife. Divorce her and marry the OW. The result will ultimately be the same: you will still feel empty inside.There is only one cure for the illness from which you are suffering. Find God.I was an agnostic for 27 years. I thought religion was a crutch for weak people. Then, through problems in my own marriage, I found Him...He changed my life forever.I can't tell you that the circumstances of my life have been perfect since then. In fact, I have had some terribly rough times (See my post, "A story of hope... how I survived my wife's affair." But even in the middle of tragedy, my relationship with God has sustained me. My empty place is full. Do you want to be full inside, too?One simple prayer can change the course of your life:Dear God,"I don't know You, but I want to. I want so much to be full inside, to find peace and meaning without having to run from affair to affair, knowing that I am hurting my wife and kids. I just can't do it alone anymore.I come to you now, confessing that I have sinned. I repent of my sins, and believe that you sent Your only Son, Jesus, to die on a cross to pay for my sins so that I could be forgiven. I accept that forgiveness now, and pray that Your Holy Spirit will come dwell inside me. Please show me Your plan for my life, and give me Your joy.In Jesus' name,Amen."...He will show you 'whattodo'. BrokenButNotCrushed

whattodo:I think you know what the RIGHT thing to do is, but it doesn't sound like you are going to do it. Not really surprising, I guess. What has your wife been doing for the past 13 years while you were picking up women in bars and having sex with them? You complain that your sex life with your wife isn't exciting enough. I wonder if she has the same complaint.Maybe you are one of those people who gets their kicks out of doing something wrong. If so, your relationship with the OW is doomed.It's clear that you are probably not going to follow the advice you receive here, just like the woman you are involved with didn't. Please don't use this site to try to assuage your guilt. You are welcome here as long as you are sincere, but it's obvious that neither of you are.Please just go ahead and be honest with your wife. Let her know that you have endangered her life and the life of your children by having sex with women you pick up in bars and exposing your family to the possibility of AIDS, hepatitis, herpes, etc,etc,etc.It will be painful for her to accept the truth about you, but she deserves to know it. She should also be tested for all those diseases you have exposed her to and begin counseling for help in dealing with the consequences of your actions.If you are planning on waiting around here for someone to tell you to leave your wife for the other woman, you are wasting your time. This site is MARRIAGE BUILDERS and is for betrayeds and betrayers who want to survive infidelity, not encourage it.If and when you decide to get serious about your commitment as a husband and father you will be welcomed and supported here. Just don't expect to find justification for your actions. There aren't any.Peppermint[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited March 20, 2000).]

whattodo?Dictionary definition of self-justification: The act or fact of justifying oneself, esp. of offering excessive reasons, explanations, excuses, etc.So predictable. We betrayeds have heard these lame excuses over and over again. If it wasn't all so sad I'd have to laugh at the predictability of your rationalizations.True, sometimes even a Herculean effort cannot save a marriage. But it doesn't sound like you have put in that effort yet. And you can't do it while maintaining a relationship with OW. You can't divide your emotional capital that way and expect anything but a failed marriage. And you have not really given your W a chance to fight for your marriage. Don't base your decision on how your relationship has been. Bring your wife into the debate and (with the help of a counselor) see how it could be.Like I said before, this dilemma will show what kind of character you really have. This will be the fight of your life.

Whattodo, I don't have much time today so I'll be blunt. You said. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Might she not be better off with one who truely loved her? Would my kids not be better off being raised in a house filled with true love between their parents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She might be but you should not be the one making the decision. Are you willing to completely give up you children so that a another man can become their father?Do you really want to ask that? Finally, you point out that this is not your first affair. So as of now you don't hold your marriage vows in much esteem. Why don't you do the OW here a hugh favor and leave her so that she can find a man that really loves her and knows what marriage vows mean? It seems to me that you really don't much about this marriage "thing" except how to make babies.I have a strong recommendation. Stay here, let the OW go and find a man that is available and honors his marriage vows, learn how to be a loving human being, and see if you can make your marriage work. I presume your W doesn't know about this affair or the others, so you have yet another issue to deal with. But I will tell you this, you have to learn how to be a husband before you make any major decisions. Learn the MB tools here and apply them to your W. You might be really surprised and you may save your marriage and make it one that you enjoy.But if you try and fail at least the next women you are with might have someone that knows something about being a decent H.I am being very blunt here, but from reading this post, my sympathies are with your W and the OW if she is unfortunate enough to "win" you. You can make your marriage happy and you can become a good H and father, but not by bailing on your W. You need to do some serious on work on yourself. You have come to the right place and everyone here will help you. But ultimately you will have to take a real hard look at yourself, what you have done and are willing to do in the future.I look forward to seeing you post here for awhile.JL

I think that you should be honest with your wife and tell her that you have been unfaithful to her.Let her make the decision if she wants to stay with you or not.If this OW were so great, she wouldn't have gotten involved with you to begin with. She doesn't sound so honorable to me.In addition, if this OW wanted you to work on your marriage, she wouldn't have told you to call her.If you are trying to work on your marriage, there shouldn't be any contact with you at all.No contact from either one of you.

(Sorry for my earlier post. Really bad mood that day.) ------------------ Lor "Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited March 22, 2000).][This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited March 22, 2000).]

I was not going to post here any longer because I feel like I have been "helped" as much as I can but since a couple of posts were directed at me, I thought I'd respond.1st to SIR HURTS ALOT. Thank you for your kind words. I made a mistake and have tried unsuccessfully to correct it. I have made quantum leaps in that I was all set to meet him in Baltimore but with the help and support of the folks on this board I decided not to go. A small but significant step in the right direction. Also we used to share MULTIPLE phone calls per day....we have cut back on those dramatically. We have not gone cold turkey (tried but failed) but do see we cannot go on like this any longer. So, I pointed him here in hopes he would be better and stronger than I was.Next to KALGRL: I don't know why you feel the need to treat me like you do. I don't feel your comments are in the spirit of this board and I am going to see what I can do to have your venomous comments tamed by the moderators of this forum. You don't know me. You don't know the steps or fruitless tries I have made to end this. And that goes for him as well. I wouldn't have come here if all I was after was having my guilt lessened. There is NO ONE on this board who can do that for me. Only time and help from God will lessen that. I came here seeking help. He came here seeking answers. Neither of us deserve to be treated like you have treated us. I suggest if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything. Your cruel words are NOT welcome and as I said, I will see what I can do about it. For the others who offered encouragement and even stern advise....it is greatly appreciated. My hope is that "whattodo" will find answers and support and encouragement here and with that I will no longer feel the need to be here for him. I wish you could hear the pain and anguish in the conversations we have. We are not heartless narcissistic people. We truly want to do what's right, we are just strugging beyond belief in actually carrying that out. I beg of you....please show him the same concern and compassion you showed me. He's searching for ANSWERS not JUSTIFICATION. Please don't make it where he doesn't want to come back. This is my last hope for him.Read Sir Hurts Alots post.....to me that is the epitome of what should be offered. He doesn't condone what is going on, he is firm, yet compassionate. There were others that were the same way .... NSR and I can't remember who else. That is what I came to expect from this forum and that is why I pointed him here. If I/we weren't serious about what needs to be done, what in the world would be the motive for posting here???? Think about it and please find it in your hearts to help him. Sorry if a bit long but I am so sad about what I've seen. Oh, one more thing....he hasn't had a series of affairs....he had one about 12 years ago....just after they were married. She issued him an ultimatum.... marry me or I'm moving back to NJ. They were young (only 22) and he was scared and naive and though he'd never find anyone who loved him later in life. A mistake but who among us can say they've never made a mistake. He's made a couple and now wants help in fixing the biggest hugest one.... will he find it here????

Whattodo: I just posted a thread called Private Lies.. a must read. This is quoted out of Chapt. 13 of the book Private Lies and is authored by Frank Pitman.Please read this. It is why a relationship with ow will not last into a successful marriage. There are a lot of statistics I have read,, Pittman states only about 3% of affairs turn into a successful marriage. Other stats I have read is anywhere from 3-6 %,,, but lets just say its rare.. My h was torn for a long time between me and ow.. He read this along with many other books before things finally worked themselves out...I want to tell you flat out that the pain that my h's infidelity caused me is beyond anything I have experienced or hope to experience in my life.. I encountered many physical problems,, came close to losing my career,, all because of what happend.. so please,, dont do this to your wife,, dont do this to your kids...Also pick up the bood titled Surviving an Affair.. this helped me and it helped my h.. It will help you break it off with ow,, and it explains what you are going through as addictive, and you will suffer from withdrawal from ow.. BUT IT CAN BE DONE.. You are lucky because your ow lives out of state.. It will be a lot easier for you.. My h broke it off successfully and he works at the same police dept. as ow.. IT made it a lot more difficult during withdrawal as he had setbacks when he saw her.We are living proof that your marriage can survive this. My h even llived with ow for 2 months.In Harleys book, SAA,, it will talk about emotional needs.. You need to work with your wife on these surveys and communicate to each other what isnt getting met, and what is important to each other. This will eventually help you and your wife feel more loving toward each other.I will tell you that the fantasy you are living and thinking about with ow just wont last,, you high feeling will change if you married her and lived with her,, and had a mixed family, child support, embarrassement of the affair, x wive to deal with....All these things of real life will change.. They are stresses and problems that you wont have to deal with with your wife should you mend and work on your marriage.Please think twice about what you are doing,,,it is the single most cruel thing that one human can do to another,,,,the most painful...... Please read the Private Lies Thread.. There are a lot of people on this site that can help you.. God Bless and Good luck[This message has been edited by mickey65 (edited March 20, 2000).]

Got to share a brief section of some thoughts that BBNC shared with me...very provacative word picture here....* * * * * * * * * I know your emotions seem to compel you down a certain path, but that path leads to death! Imagine it were possible (and it may be, soon) for a scientist to embed circuits in your brain that would produce a sensation of pleasure when you witnessed certain events. Now suppose this scientist were evil, and he decided to feed you pleasure whenever you saw your family tortured. To complete the picture, imagine that you are watching someone mutilate your family, and, to your horror, it feels fantastic! And there you are, with the power to make it stop, but you don't want to, because it feels so good.Could you stand there and watch your family dismembered because it felt great emotionally?Except for a bit of poetic license, that's what you are doing now...* * * * * * * * * There is a story in the Old Testament about two brothers...Jacob and Esau. Esau traded away his inheritance...his eternal destiny...because he was overcome with hunger pains...and traded off the "long term blessings" for a bowl of stew..."short-term gratification".Seems like that is the norm these days with so many of us. It can be so hard to see past the pressing and immediate "needs".... It is the spirit of the age today...and I wish I could tell you it is an easy battle to fight and win. Someone else said not long ago on these boards this thought as well...."The pain of longing for something you cannot have is not near as intense as the pain of regret over something you could have prevented."

Whattodo,Are you seeking, or have you made up your mind already?? I think some replies reflect the feeling that we are wasting our time, but I think you are seeking answers.I was one who replied to AZ originally. There were many similarities with our own situation and I wanted to help.My h also could not remember the passion. He went back and read his own diaries in disbelief. That is a classic symptom of the confusion caused by the affair.You've already been told a lot of reasons for working on your marriage.Let me tell you, the worst thing you could do to your wife and children is to go tell her it is over without trying to work it out. She will find it almost impossible to heal, and then the kids will suffer doubly.What has she done that is so horrible that you would even consider it?? The pain is unimaginable. Did you tell your wife how unhappy you were with her before you started the affair?? I have wished 100 times my h had.The best thing you can do now is to honestly go and work on your marriage. And to do that you will need to break all contact with OW. It will be very hard, it was for my h. But it IS necessary. You are not doing her any favors to keep having her hold out for you.Let her go, and give your marriage your full attention. We were in a very similar situation, and we are a success story. The passion is better than ever.But it took my h breaking all contact with OW, fully confessing to me, and carefully following the directions of Jennifer Harley, our counsellor.It was very hard, for both of us. But if he hadn't, he would have never known what we could have had, and our kids ARE SO HAPPY. They don't know what happened, but they were stressed, my 4 year old was biting his nails all the way down. They DO need parents who deeply love each other, their parents.

Sorry Azhootie, but you are way off base about you both wanting help here. It is clear in your posts that you both want JUSTIFICATION and UNDERSTANDING! Yes, we all UNDERSTAND how an affair can happen, but not one of you has said, I am prepared to let go. He has come here to say, WHY should I? You have brought him here to say "Well, at least I tried, so oh well, that didn't work, so let's continue what we have". KalGal is right on point, neither one of you wants help but validation. This is for people TRYING to work on it, not for people who want the OKAY to continue.

First of all, stay with your wife! Your affair with the ow is not the problem, but obviously you have a real problem in your marriage. This is not your first affair and I have no doubt that your wife knows something is going on even if she doesn't know all of the gory details. What you need to do is start fixing yourself. If you were to leave your wife and kids now, you think you would leave all of your problems behind. Unfortunately, you would take them all with you and aquire more. Do you really want to saddle your ow with all of your problems too? It sounds like your wife has been neglected for quite some time and you have not worked at meeting her needs either. Marriage takes a lot of work. What seems very natural now with the ow would very soon become work. At some point you cared enough about your wife to marry her. Why assume that you would be more willing to work on the relationship with ow than you have been with your wife. Discuss the sex issue with your w. After my h disclosed his affair we discussed things and I found out that he considered some things a 9 in importance that I assumed were a 2. Sure I could work at meeting that need, I just didn't realize before that it was a need. If you have no other reason to stay, stay for your children. Divorce is NEVER better for the kids no matter how you rationalize it. Look at what happens to the standard of living for children when the father leaves the home. Are you willing to have their life style go down while yours goes up? That is reality! Are you willing to increase the probability of drug use and teenage pregnancy? Sometimes the only reason to stay is the kids and I believe that is reason enough. Then that decided, get to work and make your marriage into something that you desire. It takes a tremendous amount of work no matter who you are married to. Get to work!!

To Azhootie, I'm with all those who are telling you that this whole thread smacks of justification and no sincerity on your part. Yeah , we don't know you but we (the betrayed) "know" you, you are our worst nightmare, the OW wrapped in religious sayings and seemingly remorseful behavior....well, keep justifying and telling yourself this guy is so wonderful...you are about to destroy innocent people. Oh btw, the bit about how he was forced to marry his wife because she issued him an utlimatum and he was young,so on and so on..... sorry, I think you're being had. Unless there was a shotgun to his head he wasn't forced.....if he made such a drastic mistake why didn't he divorce her? I really feel for this guy.....not. Sorry to be so blunt, just calling it like I see it and not with much sympathy....LU

You know what I don't get... and lord knows why I'm even saying this... but why would the OW send the wayward spouse here? I would guess it's to keep track of his feelings in a public forum. AZ, I've been your supporter before, and I still see you as someone who has hope of making your life what it can be, if you let go of this OM. I know you love him. Let him go. You CAN be strong!Whattodo?, You could be my H. He's had several affairs, 13 years apart too... 2 somewhat physical and 1 emotional 13 years ago, and one emotional and totally physical in January of this year. He loved them all. I also had an affair. I loved the OM. All of it is a fantasy. Not that all love is a fantasy, but let's put it this way. Love is pure emotion. It can't be pure if you have to sneek, lie and hide. Besides the obvious energy it takes to keep the thing going like this, it's bad for your health, your psyche, and your spirit. Both you and AZ need to let go, or go on your merry way and live happily ever after. But that "happily ever after"... just a fairy tale, really.

I don't get it. You folks were supportive to azhootie when she came here looking for help in ending her affair. She has tried and made some progress. Ending an affair is a lot more difficult than you can imagine. I give her a lot of credit for coming here and for pointing whattodo here as well. She KNOWS that no-one here will justify what they are doing. She KNOWS that no-one here will tell either of them to continue the affair. She has an addiction and she is seeking help to end it. Just as an alcoholic will go to an AA meeting. Knowing all of this, she came her. kNowing all of this she pointed him here.He's in a state of confusion that sll betrayers can identify with. I know you have all been hurt, but for a betrayer something that seems simple and common sense "Of course you need to end the affair and work on your marriage" is not that simple. It is a difficult thing to grasp when the strong emotions of the affair are there. whatotdo,Here is what I suggest. Stop the affair FOR NOW. Alcoholics have a one-day-at-a-time philosophy because thinking of forever is overwhelming and the feat seems impossible. I suggest taking the same approach. Put a time limit on it that seams reasonable (say 6 months or so). During that time REALLY TRY to remember and think about the POSITIVE things about your marriage. Ask your wife to tell you of some of the good things she remembers. It may trigger some memories of your own. Also, seek counseling. When you feel the urge to conteact the OW, try to hold oout one more day. Remind yourself of the deadline and then think of something positive about your wife and family.If after the 6 months of SINCERE EFFORT, you feel that your marriage is not worth the effort, then re-examine the situation. At that point you can either try another 6 months or leave. And you will leave knowing that you tried. But only if you give it a SINCERE EFFORT. And what JL said is right about the decision of whether your wife and kids would be better off with someone else is not yours to make. Your wife needs to know what the situation is and then be allowed to make up her own mind about the situation.Keywords here:SINCERE EFFORT Counseling time limit [This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited March 21, 2000).]

Ok, I wanna talk to you. First off I want you to know that I'm living the life you are thinking about leaving your wife for. I'm married to the OM. He left his wife for me and I left my husband for him. I want you to know that the long road through divorce is EXTREMELY painful and if your wife is angry and bitter about your leaving her she could really drag you through the mud. Is your other woman willing to hold your hand through all of that? Another thing that concerns me is the fact that you both live in different states, thus your not able to see each other much. Now every adult knows that when your dating you put your best foot forward. Your on your best behavior and the person dating you has to hope that by the time they finally decide to marry you that they have figured you out well enough to know exactly what your like when your not trying to make an impression. That task is difficult enough when you have daily or weekly contact, it seems almost impossible when you have monthly contact. You hear about what kind of mother she is from her, but have you SEEN what kind of mother she is? Your seriously considering uprooting yourself to another state to basically raise another man's children. Your children are going to get what kind of visitation? It can't be on a weekly basis if your in another state. You have admitted that your wife is a good mom. How do you know that? Well you live with her and she has SHOWN you what kind of a mother she is. Again, the OW has told you what kind of a mother she is. Big difference. Will you some day resent the fact that your raising her children instead of your own? Your going to their conferences, their football games and your helping them with their home work. How will your kids feel? Daddy traded us in for new kids?I'm pointing all of this out so that you can get a clear picture before you make such a decision. This is marriage builders and of course most on this board will push you to stay in your marriage under all circumstances. I think in 99% of all affairs the cheater does still love their spouse. If that's the case I think they need to stay in their marriage and work darn hard for it. I believe in being in a fantasy land in regards to an affair in almost all cases. But, I also know from my own experience that sometimes the second marriage works and it can be good. But, my step kids live close to us and are able to spend a lot of time with their father. My husband and his ex also co-parent very well together so he's involved in their activities. Our daughters are the same age and are best friends and his youngest son worships my son who is 7 years older. In fact, he calls for my son more then he does his father. How would your kids all get along? Also, my husband and I did not live in other states. We lived close together and I saw him with his kids often. I saw him parent, I didn't just hear about it. I saw him everyday and I saw him in all kinds of moods and situations. That clearly gives you an advantage as to making it work or not vs. living in another state. So, I just want to open your eyes a little as to what the "other side" could be like. It takes more then just love to make it work and only the two of you know if you have it or not. That's just the kids. How about your ex and your new wife? Maybe your ex will hate the new wife and make visitation almost impossible. Maybe she'll turn your kids against their step mom. Or, maybe she'll be so jealous that she'll spend all of her waking hours making your life miserable because she's unable to get on with her life. Do you love this woman enough to make it past all of that? Does she love you enough to not complain about the child support you pay, the plans you cancel with her for your children or the fact that some day your kids may live with you and you'll have a house hold of 4. Does she love you that much????

In your "lover's" post, she talks about how wrong it was and how you should do the right thing, etc. In my husband's affair, as he described it, all these feelings of how wrong it all was and how they needed to break it off were damned good foreplay. The longing, the angst, the guilt, and the painful thought of giving up their relationship all led to higher levels of passion. After the first few weeks of no-guilt whoopee, they would meet and talk about how wrong it was to be together and how she should give him up so that he could decide what to do. Then he would talk about how he loved me, but "like a friend" and how he wanted to build a new life with her, so I could find someone who would really love me, and so on. After a while of this, the feelings got so strong, they would have to fall into each other's arms in bed, just to discharge all that high, dramatic emotion.Sound familiar? If we polled everyone here, it would probably sound familiar to them, too.

Sorry TruthSeeker, but in Whattodo's first post he states that Azhootie gave him an ultimatum to either leave or work on his marriage. Ultimatum's don't sound like trying to get help to me. She sent him to so that her ego can hear more of how he want's to leave, so that we can help her believe that "hey this MM is really in love and should leave for OW". At least from these post's thats exactly what I am getting out of it. No one here would say okay to that. We ALL know that when you are in the grips of the affair, nothing that anyone says is going to persuade them. They have to learn on their own. Sorry to be so blunt, but i think we can see where this train is headed. (SORRY, I READ THE WRONG POST ABOUT WIFE CALLING OW AND IT WASN'T AZHOOTIE'S STORY).[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited March 21, 2000).]

Freinds...My good friends...In my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All...</A>... I say... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Most of all... you will find compassion and love here. No judging... no demeaning... no malice here...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Let's keep to the ideals of this forum as a safe haven for all... Everyone... and I do mean everyone who comes here is in such pain... and distess...I've also said <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We care... because we know how it feels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...Don't we know each others pain?... Aren't we supposed to grow as people through the support offered here?... to put ourselves in each other's shoes... to discover why things happened?... and then grow into making our lives better?... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We do not always agree with each other on how to handle situations... but each of us is offering to you advice based on individual experiences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...this is something we accept as unique individuals each with our own perspectives and values.Let's help with each other in the framework of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>'s principles derived from <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care</A>...We come to this forum for protection and care... when we might get neither from our spouses, friends, children or others.I'm not a moderator here... and I impose no judgments... I as friend to many of you... all I humbly ask for... is for some gentility. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim (Welcome Wagoneer to all)[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 21, 2000).]

SORRY, I READ THE WRONG POST. IT WASN'T AZHOOTIE'S MM WIFE WHO CALLED HER!

Jim,You said what I was trying to say in a much better way. Reading these posts, it felt to me that all the anger these people have toward their spouses was being directed at whattodo. That is not what this forum is for. Yes, you are angry. Yes you are in pain. Yes, you were wronged. You have a right to vent your pain and your anger, but not when it is directed at someone who did not cause your own personal pain. I still believe that they both came here for help. And from my own personal experience, I can say that when someone who is confused and hurting begins to feel attacked, they WILL get defensive. they will push back with everything they have. To get through to someone in that state, attacking just pushes them away. It has the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. They stop listening wo what you say because they perceive it as a personal threat that they must defend against. It's only when someone in that state of mind sees that you understand their state of confusion, the pain that they are suffering, will they believe that what you say has any merit.I'm not saying they should be placated and told to keep on doing what they are doing. Of course not. As Jim said, point them in the direction of following the Harley principles on this site. Offer them suggestions on ways to make ending the affair easier and therefore possible. Give them some good constructive advice and leave out the personal attacks. Again, people stop listening when they feel they are being attacked.

Just one more post on this thread. I wanted to speak to "whattodo"'s concern about his sex life with his wife. My H said the same thing about no passion ever being in our lives from the beginning. and you know what? he was right! Once I realised this and understood I could lose him because of it, it changed my outlook on our intimacy completely. Now we are more passionate, more erotic, more wonderful lovers for each other than you could ever have imagined. Whattodo?, go home and talk to your wife. Tell her how badly you're feeling and that you're afraid your marriage is falling apart. She'll probably hear the wake up call and, even though you'll go through more he11 than you would think is possible, in the end, you may find a woman more passionate, more caring, more wonderful than you'd ever realized before. Give your marriage a change, let go of the OW so you can steer your heart in the right direction. Then, if it doesn't work, you can feel good in the fact that you did everything you could to save it. There's always hope, just open your eyes to see it.

First let me say that I don't need anyone to speak for me. I am not taking out my pain on someone else. That is a generalization that all the betrayed here are just angry because it happened to them. HELLO, maybe we feel that Whattodo did not come here for help BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY WE FEEL plain and simple. Don't speak for me or others in saying, since it happened to us we are defensive. I HONESTLY feel that Whattodo wants us to say it is okay what he is doing. And I put it the way I WANTED to. If it offends some of you, then too bad, worse things have happened in life, and i won't be told how to or what to say in response to anyone because a few don't like the way it was worded. i will admit that at first it sounded like Azhootie wanted help in ending something that will end with her being the one in pain and yes some were there to hold her hand through it, but now she says she wants it to continue and that is shown through her ultimatum to Whattodo. He wants to justify his infidelity by telling us his sex life is so great with OW, that he can talk to her. WELL DUUUHH, when it starts isn't that how it usually is, you only see each other a few times, so ofcourse you are going to go all out in the sex dept. All I'm saying is it is easier to walk into something that you THINK would be easier than actually putting in WORK to your marriage, you remember the vows that Whattodo took FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE.

I apologise in advance for what I know will be interpreted as harsh and judgmental. Please know that my intentions are primarily done out of concern for 3 innocent bystanders in this mess, WTD's wife and his two little girls. Though not nearly as enlightened in the mechanics of affairs as many of my fellow MB posters, I feel that I have something to share here, specifically as it relates to Judy and her attempt to manipulate how WTD filters and assesses the information he receives here. (And then use all that she learns to her advantage). The more "allies" she develops here in her position of trying to get WTD to leave his wife, (my interpretation) the harder it will be for him to see the reality of this situation.I am not proud of what I am about to type but I think it needs to be laid out clearly. I was once the queen of head games. Smart people know exactly which words to use and which cards to play (and timing is always everything). I see nothing but head games in Judy's posts.What I read from Judy's e-mail to WTD and her post are efforts to play a pity card in the hopes that WTD will not read into her true intentions. Yes, it may seem risky to point him in the direction of the MB forum and web site if she really believed that it would mean an end to their relationship. I do not believe that this is her true intention however (the end of Judy and WTD). I believe that her games are actually an effort for WTD to see that she is not a "typical OW", that she is really just interested in HIS happiness and that will endear him to her further. Why do I say this? If this were her true intent, she would welcome the insight that all have to offer WTD without taking offence. She would welcome it in the true spirit of those trying to help him heal his marriage. Rather than doing this, she calls honest, helpful comments by Kalgrl as "venomous", this from the same woman who once posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Thank you all for your responses......no need to apologize for sounding "harsh". I certainly know what I have done is wrong and can understand the hurt and pain that this can cause." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Judy, none of what Kalgrl posted was directed to you personally, nor was it extremely harsh but you CHOSE to jump right into defence mode "woe is me", I believe with the same intent you had with your "damn tears" comment in your e-mail to WTD.Look at Judy's e-mail. WTD says that Judy tells him that she says "she wants happiness for me either by working on my marriage or by leaving my wife and being with her." How nice, her ONLY concern is for HIS happiness. My a$$. Her e-mail goes on to say how truly unselfish she is to try to let him go in the name of love. (My guess is that he complains that his wife has been selfish about things in the past and she is trying to be everything she knows the wife isn't and avoid everything she is that WTD doesn't like - just a hunch). I do know that in all unfairness, WTD has shared many letters from his wife asking for them to work on things with Judy. She knows what he likes and what he doesn't. She says, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"I hope that you will be honest though as you continue to post there and allow them to see that I am not the cause of your marriage being messed up."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What *should* it matter to Judy WHAT the cause is for his messed up marriage? If her true *intentions* are for him to be with his family for "purely unselfish reasons", what does it matter where the blame falls?The "kicker" is <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Maybe you'll get to the point where someone DOES say it's hopeless if you continue being honest about your feelings with respect to your marriage. Who knows?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What I read into this is "be honest about your feelings about your marriage, how much you truly dislike being with her, how you can't see spending a lifetime with her and then, maybe "they" will actually see that it is better for you to be with such a caring, selfless, committed woman such as myself and they will help to build OUR marriage." Why else would you put something like this into an e-mail *meant* to help remove yourself from his life?Then there is <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"You'll work on your marriage and life will be good for you and no one except me loses out. Better me than anyone else - right? Damn these tears."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This sounds like someone playing games, someone who wants the reader to say, "no, not better you than HER, she is causing me misery, you give me nothing but pleasure, it anyone needs to hurt, better it be her than YOU, the light of my life." and then think to himself, "now she is crying and hurt, how can I keep doing this to her?" Judy goes on to say, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"hang in there baby......this will all be over soon......one way or another." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a bad movie where you KNOW the one saying it has true (unspoken) intentions that they are in the process of trying to execute. Again, does this sound like someone who REALLY wants to *help* it head in one direction (that of being with his wife) or otherwise?On other (very recent) posts, Judy has also said, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"My first reaction is "lucky you!!!" I would without a doubt be the happiest woman on the face of the earth if the MM left his wife for me....."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ..........I thought you would be most "happy" if he left you to try to find happiness with his wife - that that was the reason for all of your efforts in coming here, to have help in making a "self-less sacrifice" that you know is in the best interests of everybody...........On yet another post, she also says that she believes that her MM would never leave his wife for her. Is this really what this is about? Some warped test, game, call it what you will?The most relevant post of Judy's is the following entitled "God is able to heal the pain of divorce".........why would someone who is encouraging her MM to repair his marriage post this? Especially interesting is the fact that she "rejoices" in her own divorce and is kinder to the OW and thanks her for taking her ex off her hands. Why then the desire to find passages that make divorce "ok" and easier to cope with? I find it truly warped that someone would try to use the bible to further their own sinful intentions and lead others down the same path. The passage about marrying young is probably meant to hit directly home. My guess is that it's intent is to alleviate guilt in WTD, to help him to see that his wife who "married young" can be married to God who loves her though WTD did not. Sad indeed. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"God is able to heal the pain of divorce" The pain of any divorce can seem excruciating, but an unexpected or unwanted breakup can devastate those left behind. Often these hurting women and men feel bewildered, numb, and lost. They wonder where was God when their wedding vows went up in flames.God grieves with you when an unfaithful spouse says, I just don't love you anymore, and He longs to bring comfort and healing to your broken heart.For those devastated by unwelcome divorce:* God can heal broken relationships. Divorce is ugly and always leaves painful wounds, but Jesus is an expert at bringing reconciliation to warring parties. Even when the marriage cannot be saved or restored, personal reconciliation can take place.* God can be your husband. When marriages cannot be restored, there is hope. For your Maker is your husband - the Lord Almighty is His name - the Holy of one of Israel is your Redeemer, He is called the God of all the earth. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit - a wife who married young, only to be rejected (Is. 54:5-6). God longs to bring you the joy and contentment that your failed marriage could never deliver. He loves you and will never reject you. He asks only that you give Him your heart, as broken as it may be.* Reject bitterness by forgiving the one who hurt you. The pain of divorce, left to itself, usually transforms itself into bitterness for the rejected spouse - and the children as well. You must forgive your ex-spouse. It isn't easy, and the spouse doesn't deserve it. But say out loud, I forgive him/her. It's in the past. Like God in Christ forgave me, I've forgiven him/her. Only then will you be free. By forgiving the one who hurt you, you release yourself from the prison of hate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Later down in her post on this thread, she comments on his marriage: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"She issued him an ultimatum.... marry me or I'm moving back to NJ. They were young (only 22) and he was scared and naive and though he'd never find anyone who loved him later in life. A mistake but who among us can say they've never made a mistake. He's made a couple and now wants help in fixing the biggest hugest one.... will he find it here????"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm just guessing again but I suspect that at one time or another, WTD told Judy that marrying his wife was one of the biggest mistakes of his life and she is just playing on his words and emotions with that comment. What exactly is she referring to as the biggest mistake, his marriage so young to someone who presented an ultimatum or his affair with her? ....Again, I know what she wants it to come across as but the undertones and other posts tell a different story. To WTD: you have a wife who has given you letters asking for you to work with her to heal your marriage. In kind, you shared them with Judy who on a post said <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It was actually a really nice letter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>. Why should she be surprised that it was a really nice letter, other than by what you have told her? Your wife probably is a very nice person who needs YOUR help to ensure a lifelong, happy commitment together. Since Judy once said that money isn't an issue for you, I HIGHLY recommend that you contact Steve Harley for counselling if you are having any doubts about the possibility of a romantic, loving relationship with your wife. If you do not have any intentions of persuing a healthy relationship with your WIFE at all, then you are wasting the time of all the good people here in order to justify something that is very painfully relived everytime someone sees this situation played out. The people here know the hurt you are living first hand as the betrayers and the hurt of your wife as the betrayed but are willing to share their experience with you if you want to help your relationship. If you do not, you are wasting your time and the time and emotions of some very caring people who DO KNOW first hand that you CAN have the relationship of your dreams with your wife, the woman you married for life. Ready to be flamed but had to get this off my chest.Lisa [This message has been edited by LisaM (edited March 21, 2000).]

Hi Lisa M, Amen!!!! I offered Azhootie sympathy on her earliest threads but I agree with you 100% and everyone can flame me too. You have described EXACTLY how I see this ....and I very rarely feel this way about other posts and posters......thank you....LU

I have no intention of flaming anyone. I have not read all of her psots, so I will not even try to argue anyone's points about them. All I was trying to say is that people will argue and get defensive. It's human nature. The more you tell them what awful human beings they are for doing what they are doing, the more they will argue and try to defned their point of view. If you really want someone to listen, you have to stop doing that. Yes, what they are doing is wrong. they know that or they wouldn't be here. Yes, you need to be firm about that.Trying2_4give,You proved my point. You felt attacked by what I said (which, BTW, was not my intention. I apologize to anyone who felt that I was attacking them personally. It was the overall tone of some of the posts that I was commenting on.) You got defensive and stop listening to what I was saying. I have done this myself on this board many times. (Just ask JL [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) That is why I said that I was speaking from experience.I was just hoping that people could offer some constructive advice to whattodo. If you have nothing constructive to offer, stay silent until you do.That said, I DID see some posts with some good constructive advice in between all the name-calling. I would like to see more of that continue. (the positive stuff, not the name-calling [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited March 21, 2000).]

Lisa...I agree 100% with you wholeheartedly.I could see the intent behind that e-mail. Why do I see it? Because, when I was younger, single, and dating, I used to play the same head games.Azhootie: If you really want to help What-To-Do-Now work on his marriage, then just have ZERO contact with him.What-To-Do-Now: Give your marriage a chance. I won't buy that line of "I married too young." That's a lame excuse. What about the rest of the years inbetween? You should have thought about that before you brought children into this world and made a vow to your wife and God.Your W deserves to know what is truly going on. I don't know if you want to work on your marriage....but let your W also make that decision if she wants you or not. She deserves honesty. She also should be aware that you have jeapordized her life by having sexual relations with someone else. She needs to know that you are NOT monogamous.

Are you still there WTD???This thread has taken a life of its own.Please do the right thing for everyone. Go to your wife and tell her how unhappy you are. Give her and yourself a chance to find that wonderful life. We did.I'm not sure if you are truly asking or why you are here, so I'm not going to take the time now to give you ideas of how to approach your wife. I will if you ask.Read Surviving an Affair, and come to your own conclusions. My h did, before he even approached me.You are in a very tough spot right now. Prolonging the affair only makes it worse. Your wife is about to experience the worst pain of her life even if you stay, but 100 times if you leave without giving her a chance. I think you will need to confess it all, not only for the usual reasons of restoring complete honesty and openness, but because YOU WILL NEED HER HELP TO BREAK THIS ADDICTION.I helped my h through it, now looking back it was well worth it. She will need to know that you are not in love with her, but you believe there is hope it can be recreated.Steve or Jennifer could walk you through the process. My h told Jennifer before he told me. She was there for me and helped me to realize punishing him would only hurt me in the long run. I understood that I wanted the marriage in spite of the pain and anger.

Say....why not get WTD's wife in on this thread as well...that would make this even more interesting!

LISA M... 2 thumbs up!!!! Well said!! Truthseeker not feeling defensive by what you said, but if that's how you chose to see it then that's your choice. You don't feel everyone here has given "constructive advice" maybe they feel they have. It's all a matter of how one interprets the information they have read.

LisaM:No flaming here. But I do want to point out a couple of things. KALGRL's response was directed at me personally:(quote) This is directed at your OW. I have always felt that you came to this forum in order to somehow relieve the guilt you feel about being involved in an adulterous relationship and to somehow justify this relationship. The above quote of course only confirms what I already knew. You were given support and advice but you have failed to follow any advice given here. As I have posted to your lover just what do you two expect to get here? In my opinion you two deserve each other. I mean look at the great beginning your relationship had: a drunken roll in the hay with a married man who has a history of infidelity. Does'nt get any better than that does it? (I don't know how to do the quote thing so I copied and pasted it)She can believe I came here for any reason she wants. It wasn't to relieve guilt, it was to get help from what I truly have come to realize is an addition. I don't have addictive tendancies so I didn't understand just what a powerful hold this could have on a person (me). I don't think that comment of hers was particularly venomous. It was what followed. There was nothing helpful or constructive in the remainder of it. It was just ugly and mean. You don't know me....so everything you laid out in your post could be perfectly true. Except it's not. WTD is no dummy. If my motives were anything but true, he'd be wise enough to see right thru me. He's college-educated, VERY analytical (engineer) rational (until now). I doubt I could pull anything over his eyes even if I tried.Let me just say something that might demonstrate why the things in your post were not on the money.....if my intentions were to NOT let him go. I would never have posted here. He has told me on more than one occassion that if I moved to NC, there is no way he could resist me. I am still here in AZ even though I have the means to pick up and move. My boss has already told me I can do my job from anywhere I chose. Add to that the fact that my ex-husband just moved to NC in November after living oversead for the last several years....if I moved there too he'd be closer to his children, plus my very best friend in the whole world lives there as does my sister's parents in law whom they visit often so it is truly appealing. But I'm not, Lisa. I am (whether you see the progress or not) trying to break things off, not because I want to, but because I know it's the right thing to do. I would actually love nothing more than for him to leave her and for us to make a life together. But that's that selfish side of me. The compassionate side defends his marriage to my friends and beats myself up for feeling that way. Read Nomas' post from a couple of weeks ago. Here is a good Christian man involved in ministry for the last 10 years struggling (I'll even use the word BATTLING) with the pain of addiction and trying to let go. It happens to good, decent people too, Lisa. I'm not a "queen of head games"... just a normal joe (jane?) who got in over her head and is trying to make amends. There is nothing to read between the lines. No supersecret manipulative plot. Just two people in a tremendous amount of pain, seeking help from others who were successful in getting thru this. Period. No hidden agenda. I'm hurting, I'm weary, I'm making some progress but I fall sometimes too. I showed my friend (our office manager) some of these posts and she was so sad to read them. She just gave me a big hug as tears welled up in her eyes and said "they just don't know ya, they just don't see what I see" and then told me I shouldn't subject myself to this kind of stuff and to stop coming here. So I guess in closing, Lisa...yes, everything you said could be true...I could be a lying, manipulative, heartless, souless, woman with ulterior motives. But I know I'm not.

I agree with much of what has been said here. It is also interesting because it gives a good idea of the personalities behind the pen names. It's easy to see who are the peacemakers (NSR, Truthseeker); who are the plain speakers (trying 2 4give, me); and who are the analyzers (LisaM, bonniesept).I have to say I thing LisaM has it just right, but I doubt whattodo is even here anymore.Perhaps some of us on this thread haven't been as patient or understanding as we might have been. But I have to say that having two people who are having an affair come to this site under these circumstances is sort of like George W. Bush showing up at the Democratic National Convention to campaign for votes! He shouldn't expect to be patted on the back and told how wonderful he is.Whattodo didn't come here asking how to end his affair and save his marriage. He came to tell us all how flawed his wife is and how great his mistress is. And to insinuate that he wanted to give up his wife and children for great sex. I doubt that anything anyone here says will change his mind or the mind of his mistress.peppermint

I would no more have asked (or would even suggest now, months after it's over) the OM to come here than shoot my foot. This is MY safe place. I just don't understand it.If my H asked the OW to come here, it would be like those earlier situations with Tired Lady and Mia... and for those of you who weren't here, it was gawd-awful. If the OM or OW accidently finds this place in their quest to make their marriage better, and remain anonymous, more power to them. But this way? NO! NO! NO! There is only trouble like this.AZ, I do wish you blessings and God's love and forgiveness as you put your life back together, and I wish the same for you WTD... truly... my thought is that you can not be anonymous here, either of you. I honestly think you need to find SAFE places where you can work on yourselves WITHOUT EACH OTHER AROUND.~Sheryl [This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 21, 2000).]

New_beginning ~Thanks for everything you have done and said from day one. Whether you believe it or not, you have helped tremendously. It may not seem so, but we have taken many steps to end this and all at yours and others encouragment.My intention was to leave here and not post anymore and allow WTD to post here instead but it got ugly and he called me and wondered what the heck was going on. Not at all what I promised him as far as people being supportive and non-judgemental! Maybe he isn't phrasing things right in that he is asking tough questions but I do believe that his mind is made up.....divorce is not an option and he just wants confirmation that he is making the right decision. Intead all of a sudden this becomes about me and his issues/questions are being neglected and it's a "let's stone Judy" thread....that's sad to me.I know I certainly won't be back and though I haven't heard the same from him, I would bet he feels the same. And maybe he doesn't express his remorse or sorrow for what he has done/is doing in his posts, but trust me, it's there. Thank you for not "turning" on me. Thank you for not reading between the lines and trying to psychoanalize things....thank you, thank you, thank you. For everything.Take care and God bless.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by schizzo: Are you still there WTD???This thread has taken a life of its own.Please do the right thing for everyone. Go to your wife and tell her how unhappy you are. Give her and yourself a chance to find that wonderful life. We did.I'm not sure if you are truly asking or why you are here, so I'm not going to take the time now to give you ideas of how to approach your wife. I will if you ask.Read Surviving an Affair, and come to your own conclusions. My h did, before he even approached me.You are in a very tough spot right now. Prolonging the affair only makes it worse. Your wife is about to experience the worst pain of her life even if you stay, but 100 times if you leave without giving her a chance. I think you will need to confess it all, not only for the usual reasons of restoring complete honesty and openness, but because YOU WILL NEED HER HELP TO BREAK THIS ADDICTION.I helped my h through it, now looking back it was well worth it. She will need to know that you are not in love with her, but you believe there is hope it can be recreated.Steve or Jennifer could walk you through the process. My h told Jennifer before he told me. She was there for me and helped me to realize punishing him would only hurt me in the long run. I understood that I wanted the marriage in spite of the pain and anger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WTD, everyone is so busy talking about your motives, I'm afraid you'll miss this.Please reply. I don't know why there has been such an uproar. I have some idea of the confusion you and Azhootie are feeling since my h was there just last October. I read all his e-mails with his OW and we've talked a lot.I know it is possible to be seriously wanting to take the right path, and be confused. But we are all humans and there is a lot of raw emotion running on all sides of these issues.

One quick last post before I exit for good....LISAM....I think it is unfair that you only quoted parts of my posts....especially the one about "God heals the pain of divorce" You left out my comments and the bullet referring to adultery and how wrong it was. That was the very reason I posted that email I received. I felt it hit home because my pastor had just made me face the fact that I could sugar coat what I was doing by dancing around it but the cold hard fact is that I was committing adultery. My original quote that you left out was: (quote) the first bulleted paragraph really spoke to me. *ouch* * Adultery is evil, and God hates it. Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral (Heb. 13:4). When someone gets involved sexually with a person other than his or her spouse, it's not an affair or fooling around - it's adultery. Adultery cuts at the heart of what it means to be married. When a person is unfaithful, he or she violates a commitment designed to mirror the faithfulness of God Himself.Another one that you didn't bother to add my whole quote was where I posted to Lost11. She had said the the MM's wife told him she didn't want to "fix things" and that Lost was free to have the MM. I said my first reaction is "lucky you" but then I went on to say:(quote) but then my 2nd reaction is "poor you" because you have such a hard road ahead of you and some tough decisions to make if indeed his wife has kicked him out. I hope that if you decide to analyze someone else's intentions in the future that you are at least fair about it and include all the quote so people get the correct context of what is being said.Lastly, could it be since you were admittedly the "queen of headgames" you maybe, just maybe are assuming I am when in fact, I am just a mixed up woman in love with the wrong man???? I had hoped this forum was going to help both WTD and I conquer this addiction. I wish it didn't come to this. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Are you both still out there?You both sound like good people. You have fallen head over heels in love with eachother, but you both know it is wrong. I think everyone here wants what is good and right for both of you, and for the third person who doesn't even know she's the third person. Or at least won't admit it to herself yet.This is an incredibly difficult time for you both, and it is hard for your wife, WTD, as well, although she doesn't know why things are so hard.If you are truly made for eachother, your relationship will withstand you telling your wife about this affair, WTD, and trying to see if you two can work it out.Right now you are being horribly unfair to your wife. She might turn out to really be the woman of your dreams once you tell her how unhappy you are. It's going to crush her to hear about this, but you have to tell her. You have to give her the chance to work on her marriage.It might be irrepairable. But only you AND YOUR WIFE can make that decision. It isn't fair to make that decision on your own.AZ loves you enough to encourage you to find what is right. Do you love yourself enough to take her up on her offer?AZ--you did a good thing to bring WTD here. WTD--you were very courageous to post here. Fellow MarriageBuilders--let's not make them feel like it's them against the world. They both need our hugs.Best wishes to you both, and to your wife, WTD.

WTD, Are you really that stupid?Read carefully what the others have posted here. Realize that what you and your ow have is a sexual attraction.Go to Fayetteville or to any other big city in NC, hire yourself a professional, and you will have that same "closeness" that you seem to be addicted to with AZ. Then get off it and go home to your family and be a real man.To AZ, get off your high horse and stop trying to steal someone else's husband. He lives in NC, and you can buy yourself an expensive lawsuit for Alienation of Affections. That tort was made for the two of you. Before you play around anymore with the stakes involved including your young children and his, go rent the movie (set in NC), THE PRICE OF A BROKEN HEART!Both of you need to stop rationalizing and show some real character!

i WILL NOT BE AS RUDE AS SOME OF THE OTHERS....BUT look at your wife...imagine her a single woman....she would be more exciting to you then....ive been where you are after 9 years of being with someone i cheated for 6 long months.....and i still think about the guy everyday and he was so perfect...but put him in my husbands shoes and he is just a plain ordinary guy...switch your wifes role with your lovers role...and see them as they really are

whattodo? :After reading carefully everything you've written, I've come to an awful conclusion: you've never truly respected or loved your wife. Who knows why you married? ~ not me ~ ...but the sad fact of it all is that your marriage has always been, and likely always will be, an unhealthy relationship.It seems to me that the only reason why you remain married is because you feel secure. You feel very comfortable and safe with your marriage - you have no sense of obligation or committment. Ample evidence of this is found in your own description of how you treat your wife, marriage and children. You simply do not care about your wife and children as much as you care about yourself and your desires - you don't really love anybody but yourself.You have had multiple affairs, yet you've only had feelings for one of the persons with whom you've betrayed your wife with. As I read this, it became evident that you have great difficulties forming real relationships with people, that you often delve into fantasy to escape whatever reality you find unpleasant or don't want to deal with. Your marriage is, and has always been, an illusion, part of the lie you've told yourself. Suddenly you've woken up (a little) and found that there is something that you truly do want in life.Be very, very careful... You're interested in this person (OW) because you think that they're different, because you believe that they're unique and special. They're not. They're a person like you who excels at escaping reality into fantasy. A person whose whole life and personality is a shallow facade. You're so very captivated because, finally, you've found your mirror image. Like Narcissus, you're entranced by the rare specimen you believe you've found whileas in reality you're only staring back at yourself (albeit your female counterpart). As a warning, this person will destroy you - and you will destroy them, utterly. I can only say the one positive thing that may result if you two get together is that you may finally succeed in destroying each other's fantasy world, and hopefully at least one of you will make it back to reality and try living in the real world for a change.I'm not going to tell you to salvage your marriage, because in my opinion, your marriage never really was real. I think you should ask your wife for a divorce, and simply go your separate ways as amicably as you can. After all, you do have children, and they don't deserve to be traumatized by either a messy divorce, or by having you around to hurt them and their mother futher. azhootie :Your actions and words are not Christian in any which way, shape, or form. Truthfully speaking, if you were a Christian, you would understand the phrase Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, and you would act and speak far differently than you do now, and than you have in the past. Either stop pretending to be something you're not, or make the changes to become what you profess you are and which you claim you want to become.Your attitude is one of intolerance. You want to control exactly where your relationship with your MP went - you wanted all the hows, whys, whens, and wheres right under your thumb. You wanted to be always in the right and be the victim trying to do the right thing. A harsh reality check: you are not as pure as the driven snow. You've done this all to yourself. You're living a fantasy and a lie, albeit a different one than what you were living when you were (or are you still?) actively in a relationship with a MP. When reality is too much for you, you create an easy out, a fantasy to escape into, one in which you can ignore that which you find unpleasant or don't want to deal with...Snap out of it. Deal with it. Either get involved with this MP or leave completely. You can't have it both ways. If you tell yourself you can, or that you're only attempting to ease out of everything gracefully or gently, you're deluding and hurting only yourself. You're not here because you want support or advice; you're here because you want justifications and rationalisations for the actions that you yourself know (deep down inside) don't make any sense. You're here to help solidify your own illusions to yourself, nothing else. Your presence here is all just another lie you've fabricated, another fantasy to help you sleep at night, so you can still look at yourself in the mirror. You're only here because your last fantasy became too uncomfortably real for you to handle, and you found yourself and easy out into a different fantasy world, one where you can portray yourself as blameless and as a good person. All I can say is that I'm not deceived. I've spent enough time listening to and being told the type of lies you've writing to recognize them in my sleep.You don't want people to analyze what you write and to take you at face value because you yourself know that everything you've written falls apart under scrutiny.The two of you are mirror images of deceivers, of con artists, of hollow shells of human beings. You are entranced by each other because you've never encountered another one like yourself before. Just remember - unlike the rest of the universe, in which like compliments like, the two of you will likely destroy each other if you remain together. However, I couldn't think of a more fitting or deserving fate for either of you.If you're serious about being a Christian then act like one. Start out by living your life by the golden rule I wrote out. Either that, or fold to your nature and behave as you truly wish to desire. Then, as I told your MP, either you will both destroy each other or you will succeed in destroying the lie which both your lives have always been.You are both very sick, self-destructive vampyres. I just hope you don't take down too many innocents with you when you finally go up in flames.------------------ ~~ Elixir ~~

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elixir: sorry....read next one [This message has been edited by whattodo? (edited March 22, 2000).]

TO ELIXIR:Who the h*** do you think you are? You've analyzed my entire life from the 2 paragraphs I posted? What "holier than thou" rock did you crawl out from under?People come to this board for advice, not to be judged by some looser like you. You know NOTHING about me or my life to allow you to write such a rambling diatribe. You are entitled to your opinions, but what value do you think they serve on this thread? This board is for help and support..... If you just want to pass judgement without an effort to help, I would think you could find some other place to post(like back under your rock).

To all who have provided their insight and advice:THANKS!!!! Sorry I haven't posted back more often, but I've not had much time or desire. I've made what possibly was the hardest decision of my life today....to break off contact with the OW(AZ) and try to work on my marriage. In my mind, I know that I owe it to everyone involved.....but it still seems so hard to give up on the special feelings we brought into each others lives. I've read many posts that talk of an affair like an addiction....and I can honestly say that it is. I hope I have the strength to follow through on my decision since I know that if I get another "taste", I'll be hooked all over again.I'm not sure how I will "work on my marriage" yet, but I know that I need to begin by reading some of the basic concepts and links provided by NSF(thanks for pointing to them in your post).At this point, It seems that disclosure of the affair seems to be a key point in starting the healing process, but I'm not ready for that yet. I was going to begin by addressing the state of mutual unhappiness in our marriage, and how to work together towards correcting it. She(wife)had actually bought the "5 love languages" book in the last year or so....we both read it, but I never really tried to follow through since AZ was still in my heart/mind and soul. I know she has been feeling the distance increase in our relationship as time has progressed.Thanks again for all the heartfelt advice. I may be back for advice as I try to heal, but I think I will have to change my name to avoid all of the hostility this thread has generated.The one question on my mind at this early point, is will I ever be able to get the OW out of my mind? Will I ever be able free from making mental comparisons? Will I ever be able to achieve in my marriage the same type of intense feelings of love and happiness that I was addicted to in the affair?.....guess that was really three questions

One of the most contrived efforts I've ever seen on the board to get the MM to leave the wife.I'll save you the trouble, cut & paste. Dear Tempest, InShock is really mean to me.

Whattodo:I'm sorry, but I have to ask this: Is your name really Arik?

Hi Whattodo? -First, I would like to welcome you to MB. I have been here awhile and KNOW that you will find the support, advice, help, compassion and - yes, even the very strongly stated opinions given - to be of tremendous strength to you if you take it all in, think long and hard on it and then adapt what applies and ignore what doesn't......The one thing about message boards that I have learned and have no problem implementing is to read all that is written, revel in what is insightful and compassionate and try to understand the perspective of the posts I find offensive. Everyone here has been touched (and in some cases stabbed repeatedly with a sharp sword!!) by this infidelity monster that is eating up society. There are all sorts of reasons for it and the main thing to keep in mind is that PAIN is prevalant within it's hellish triangle walls. EVERYONE involved feels pain......What we all try to do, if we can see through our pain enough, is to look at the whys, the hows, the what ifs and the "what to dos"!!! During this process, we vent and rant and rave......when a chance comes up to help someone in making a decision (such as you are on the brink of) we all get a little frenzied in trying to help the person "on the brink" make the decision to look deep within themselves, look deeply at their lives with their spouse and look long and hard at the repercussions us "adults" submit our children to.In this "frenzy", some can get very emotional.....perhaps there is some truth to their words, perhaps not...Perhaps there are better ways to endear the meaning of their words to you...perhaps you need to hear the calm and the storm... I don't know what will influence you - because, as you have pointed out, I (like most here) don't know you. As I said before, though.....I do know that this place CAN HELP YOU!! That is of course, only if you want to be helped. If you REALLY open your mind up to what is being said and WHY. Not all people are going to be tactful and hold your hand to walk you through it. Just like Not ALL people will seem to be angry or nasty or blunt. It's a mixed bag.....but hey, that's how life is - the good, the bad and the middle of the road. I will say that ALL of the replies you get, will have some value if you look through the messenger and concentrate on the message. If the message doesn't fit, then - good - there's one hurdle you don't have to worry about. Just make sure you are being honest with your self analysis. Only you can do that!!!Now I hope you don't mind if I throw my two cents in.....if you have read this far, I guess you don't! ( I can get a little wordy, Huh? - sorry!! LOL!!)I am very glad that OW has directed you here....I think that is wonderful!! I do have a problem with her remaining and interacting while you are here though!! It's EXTREMELY counter-productive!! The only way you can make any rational decision at all is without any contact from her.....as long as you are in contact NO PART OF YOUR BRAIN will be into making an objective and thoughtful decision. It's just a fact!!! That said - the first decision you must make is if you are going to at least stop contact until your decision to make a TRULY UNINFLUENCED decision is made!! Geez, look how complicated this is - it only gets harder, so buckle up!!!What I would like to do is to talk very plainly - and possibly very painfully - to you....so be prepared. It is not being mean - it is simply the reality of the situation. OK? I am a Wife, from the sounds of it - I am very much like your wife as far as the situation. I have been living this nightmare for six years (that I know of!) and to this day I do not know WHY my husband has behaved the way he has......you see, he never talked to me!! I have been in limbo all this time - do you have any idea what LIMBO is like? You think you are in pain.....you at least KNOW what you are agonizing over. I didn't even have that much. JUST KNEW that my H wasn't "one" with me anymore and had no idea why, how, who, what....came along and changed that!!!I wrote him letters, tried to talk to him, went overboard with "caring" for him....HE became my total focus in the middle of major personal crisis' that were happening in my life. I just wanted to know what was wrong. NO, sex wasn't great, nothing was great!!!! How could it be when there was this chasm between us and he cut the ropes that held the bridge up!!!My point, YOUR WIFE is in agony!!! YOU hold the key......Let me take a guess and say that the tension is building so much in your house that you don't even want to be there. Am I right? If it's not at an almost unbearable level now - it will be soon. WHY does it have to get there. TALK to your wife - she thinks of this scenario, I guarantee it!! Her thoughts can be far worse for her than the truth, believe me - I have lived it!!!My H was ultimatumed right out of our house....we went away for a weekend and the OW threw a fit and then it was "her or me" time........He chose her. He moved out by the next weekend. That was last June. He filed for divorce two weeks later after telling me that we were going to take some time apart to "think".....yeah, right!!Problem was, I didn't know what I was supposed to be thinking about!! He never said what his problems were with me, us, or whatever.My story is all over these boards, read them if you want......he STILL hasn't talked to me. The man I love with every fiber in my being and he just ran away from home!!!! My question is WHAT is he REALLY running from?He needs to take a good look at himself, because I have realized that there are TWO people in a marriage. That means two different perspectives of what is going on or not going on. It will (and should) take both of you to decide what is the truth of the situation.PLEASE give her that chance.......Thanks for listening to my prattling for so long. I am sorry that you have found yourself in this situation. I believe that you have the power to make your marriage whatever you want it to be. I hope that you take the opportunity to find out exactly what you want for your life and what you want to be able to be proud of for your life and leave for your kids to learn from.Good Luck, God Bless, I'm here for you if you choose to stay....Hugs,Sheba

WTD -Hey, you posted as I did.....GLAD to hear of your decision and in answer to your questions about OW -Quite simply - IF YOU REALLY WANT TO AND TRY you can do anything!!! Your wife and children and especially yourself deserve that!!!!Big Hugs,Sheba

What to do? You really want to know what to do? Cry. Give yourself permission to cry and mourn intensely for a set period of time. A week. Two days. Whatever you decide. Not too long. You can feel as sorry for yourself as you want. Then take on your life. If/when you need to you can take another day now and then to be weepy and self pitying. It really helped me break off when I did mourning in advance and in intense stages. I spent six months going through it one time and would have been less if I had scheduled it and permitted it.Once I was mourning a husband, twice I have mourned potential OM. Keeps the weight off and I don't need anti-depressants when tears and intense feeling are allow to flow freely.

whattodo?,I commend your decision...It must have been very hard, since a person's natural inclination is to fight the advice of those that scold...Please do read everything from these sites...The book you mentioned...<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1881273156" TARGET=_blank>The Five Love Languages : How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate</A> by Gary Chapman is highly reommended by some of our veterans (HGBrawner... she is remarkable)! A good supplement to the Harley books too!Do check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000013.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A> post for reference to all that has been offered by forum members past and present!As Sheba recommends... please... stop all contact with azhootie... ...it is the only way!You are welcomed... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

Hello What To Do, Just want to welcome you to Marriage Builders.Glad to hear you've decided to break contact with OW.Your children will be forever grateful,even though they may never know it. All children need a father,and the most precious gift you can give them is to love their mother. My H and I also married very young(24) and were already parents of an 18 month old son. We had good early years.He's said in the last two years(during his EA) that we never had much passion,that he was not l "in love " anymore and that I deserved better,as I was, as you say of your wife, "a great mother and good to him". His affair and depression deleted his memory of how wonderful our relationship was for years,how much passion and fun and true lovingness we shared. We had a number of years that were tremendously stressful due to parenting a handicapped child and we grew distant,he focusing on work and sports and I on rehabilitating our child. He felt neglected and became depressed,although he would never admit his depression.Depression manifests itself so differently in men,not the typical weepy,crying, can't function stuff so many women experience.He turned to OW for emotional support,and I like your wife senced the pulling away and distance,and asked a number of times if there was someone else.I always got a "no". I begged in several letters over the years for us to get back on track so that we coud feel the way we once did about each other. Honestly,I was just about as "affair ready" as he,as my needs had been neglected for several years and I tolerated his angry outbursts that hurt deep to the core. He hated to come home as OW made him feel sooo wonderful while he was at work.He, like you, had met her on a business trip. They had a long distance relationship via e-mail and phone,there was never any way for me to compete with her,I never knew and even if I did,how COULD I compete with a woman who could say anything and be anyone......she didn't live day to day with him and wasn't in his face coping with the reality of the every day stress and strife of a three child family and a handicapped child on top of the normal stuff. He asked to separate so that he could "think". He said he was no longer "in love" with me and no longer found me sexually attractive(ouch!).he didn't know if I " was the right person" for him. Again I asked if there was someone else,"NO" ,he said.He cried over feeling as if he had no choice but to leave me and his kids to sort things out. He was overcome with grief at the thought of not living day to day with his children.Two weeks later I discovered his affair,as he was planning to meet up with her again to make his EA a PA,their relationship had progressed. I have never felt such pain in my life,worse than the deaths of my brother and my father. We separated for 2 months,he bravely cut off all contact with OW and we both went into counseling separately.He could not stand being without his precious children and missed me more than he ever thought he would.At first it was very stressful and tense,but he realized quickly,once there was no contact with OW,that he actually still did feel "in love" with me.He had just simply quit giving me and himself the chance to feel those things when he was so focused on Ow,whom he felt was his "soulmate". He has been home now for 3 months. We are 6 months past discovery. We are so much "in love" again.He says he has a new found love and respect for me like never before. My forgiveness of his weakness made him see just how deep my love for him is.It overwhelmed him. I got an e-mail from him just today saying "Damn, I love you".It amazing how far we've come and the intensity of feelings we BOTH feel once again.It is nothing short of a miracle. God works in very strange ways sometimes. I hate to say it, but I am somewhat grateful(cringe) for my H's affair.It was the wake up call we desperately needed,although I wish that wake up call didn't need to be so painful.I wonder if we ever would have had the impetus to make all the changes we needed to,to have the wonderful changed relationship we have now,with a deep mutual love and respect. I don't think we will ever again take each for granted again. What the devil intended for evil, God intended for good. You too, What To Do,can have a new marriage...to your wife. It is hard,there is lots of work and pain,but it will be the most satifying endeavor and your reward will be great and effect so many. Your wife has tried to reach you,she wants to make things better,give her the chance,you owe it to your children if no one else.The best way to get started is to NEVER have contact with OW again. No use to delay the inevitable withdrawl you will experience. God bless you and your family,be strong and keep your promises from here on out!

Why not just answer the man's question? He was asking for help to fight his feelings for OW when he wasn't feeling anything for his wife and was pretty certain he never did.Instead you insulted both of them. I suggest you take your well justified anger, hurt, bitterness, and disgust someplace where it could do some good. How hard it must be to know your spouse can offer their heart and soul and their body to love another more than they ever remember loving you, when you've been the "brussel sprouts" as someone posted on this thread.I don't blame any of you for not having any patience or compassion for another potential "homewrecker." But isn't it obvious that people here are not the typical homewrecker? You aren't going to find many of the betrayers that dumped their spouses for the OP posting here. Let's face it, the betrayers justify why they betrayed, whether it's true or not. If they feel remorse, doubt, guilt or have second thoughts about leaving their marriages, then don't you think they deserve some respect and kindness rather than a slap on the wrist. Believe me, they've beaten themselves up more than you could ever do. They can't even enjoy their love for each other completely because of the tremendous pain they are feeling. (I know you are pulling out your violins to play for them) Once you make your mind up to work on your marriage, this is the place you want to be. The fact that you came here shows you have enough of a conscious to at least try to do the right thing. Your morals and/or guilt are stronger than the love and/or happiness you feel for the OP.WTD,I originally posted here wanting to know the same thing you did. I learned quickly that because this is a marriage builder's site, that any advice I would receive would be pushing for saving the marriage. In my case, I'm already divorced but living with the guilt of making the wrong decision.I'm still fighting with this issue. Your thread caught my attention and I'm glad to see you've made a decision. Your decision may change in the future but you've taken the hardest step. Take one minute at a time and then one hour, then one day. When the feelings are as intense as I know yours are for your OW, one day feels like an eternity.There are many caring, wonderful, and insightful people that post on MB. I hope you aren't turned off by the negativity. I don't think AZ would've sent you here if she didn't feel this was a safe compassionate forum. You both know your situation is wrong. Everyone only thinks about the pain of the betrayed. Unless they've been in your shoes they can't imagine the pain you are in. The pain comes from the guilt of betraying, the pain of being away from the one you love so deeply, and the pain of making a decision.Making a decision to do what you know is right verses making a decision to do what feels so intense and real and wonderful. Whether it turns out to be a fantasy or not, at the present, IT FEELS AUTHENTIC AND WONDERFUL.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by peppermint: Whattodo:I'm sorry, but I have to ask this: Is your name really Arik?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No....but I guess we must have similar problems from the sound of the question.

What to do, Listen to mthrhbard. My H went through the same thing. He didn't think he could ever get over the OW. He didn't think we could ever recover the love and passion he felt for her. BUT, it's only been TWO WEEKS since he finally turned away from her completely. And, it is like stopping taking a drug, because now he says how much he loves me. He can't imagine why he didn't see it before. Our passion for each is like newlyweds now and we are both completely aware of our relationship and what we need to do to keep it going right. He now says he'll never leave me, that he loves me too much. You can feel this way too, but you must turn your heart away from the OW and focus on the strengths and positives in your wife. When you disclose your affair, be prepared. Like many others have said on this forum, the pain is worse than anything she will ever experience - much worse than the death of a loved one. But you must do this in order to go forward. Be assured that you are doing the right thing, however painful it feels right now. Good luck, be well, and may the Power of the Universe be with you.

Oh, I know I am going to get some fallout for this. However, I simply cannot tolerate self-obsessed, self-righteous abusive betrayers...whattodo :Who the h*** do you think you are? You've analyzed my entire life from the 2 paragraphs I posted? What "holier than thou" rock did you crawl out from under?I am a person who survived a relationship with a person who was (unfortunately) just like you. A person whose entire life and personality was a lie even to themselves. It's unfortunate but I was subjected to a abuse from a lying addict for so many years that when I see it again I am able to spot it instantly. Your reaction is exactly like that of a person who is addicted to lying; denial and outrage - you don't want your fantasy-world bubble popped and anything that threatens it terrifies and enrages you. All I can say is wake up! Either sink further into denial and make your life more of a lie or try living in reality for a change. You are an abusive person - perhaps not physically, but you torture the people around you mentally and emotionally. You make yourself feel good at other people's expense. I find that reprehensible!What rock did I crawl out from under? An emotionally and mentally abusive relationship with a person just like you. How can I analyse your life from the little you wrote? It's easy - you've said all the same b.s. lies, self-justifications and self-rationalizations that my X used to say. After seven years of extensive "training" with a professional liar, I can now spot your type a mile away.People come to this board for advice, not to be judged by some looser like you.True, nobody likes or wants to be judged. Nor should they most of the time. However, you asked whether or not you should stay with your wife and children or leave for your lover. I honestly and truly believe it'd be best for everybody if you left. I normally wouldn't say such a thing, but by the things you wrote about yourself, you can't be any good for your wife or your kids. Therefore in my judgement it's best if you remove yourself.I know I'm no loser, I'm a survivor and a winner. I survived an abusive, controlling, lying jerk and triumphed over his best efforts to destroy me. Unlike yourself, who is a self-confessed loser (betrayer) whose entire existence was built up at the expense of those whom they supposedly should love most in life. If you don't want advice, don't ask for it!!! You know NOTHING about me or my life to allow you to write such a rambling diatribe.I only know what you've chosen to tell us - and what you've chosen to share isn't very flattering at all to yourself. You come off as a cold-hearted, selfish, self-centered, lying serial philanderer. You don't care for your wife and very little for your children. Remember we only know what we tell us, and so far you haven't said anything nice about yourself at all! So what else is there to know about you? Is there anything good about you, or is what you've written all there is to know?? If that's true, that's very, very sad indeed.You are entitled to your opinions, but what value do you think they serve on this thread? This board is for help and support..... If you just want to pass judgement without an effort to help, I would think you could find some other place to post(like back under your rock). You asked for opinions and advice. You got some you didn't expect and it makes you angry. Poor insecure baby, my opinion didn't comfort you and tell you that everything was going to be alright and that you weren't a bad guy. Well, too bad. Life isn't fair. Get used to it, and grow up and take responsibility for your life instead of whining and constantly trying to escape from it!Help and support do not always necessarily mean that people will coddle you. Nor should it. I'm not lying to you, I'm giving you my honest opinion. If you want to be lied to and have people support you no matter what you do there are other boards that will do that. At MB I think honesty and real advice and opinions always come first.If you only want support and no real help, maybe you should be the one looking for a rock to crawl under. After all, that seems to be where you've been living your whole life.My sympathies to your wife and children. May you one day understand and feel what you have done to them and forced them to endure.------------------ ~~ Elixir ~~

Sure seems like there is a lot of "venom" being spewed out here on this post. Seems like we tend to forget that people on both sides of this "fence" are obviously hurting and struggling with numerous issues.The fact is that those issues are legitimate to the person who is hurting, be it the betrayer, or the betrayed. One of the most profound statements that I have come across in scripture (if I may use that here) is when Jesus was hanging on the cross...a crowd had gathered and was taunting him. Barely able to breath, let alone speak, he utters out the cry: "Father...forgive them...THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING!"No, that is not an excuse for doing the things we do. But the point is, while a betrayed spouse is walking through their own living hell no doubt, a betrayer is fighting his way through his own hell as well. And as a betrayer, I would agree with Harley that the man is not in his right mind. We have obviously been decieved. And DECEIVED PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THEY ARE DECEIVED!!!!!!So lashing out at one only causes them to retreat to their "false place of refuge". Perhaps that is why they ended up there in the first place. (Still not justifying our actions here!)I would hope that those "flirting" with an affair...would take to heart the pain and guile and bitterness they sense oozing out of so many of these posts..and let the reader beware..."if you think you are standing firm, take heed lest ye fall"

WTD,I am one of the posters who was probably included in the group described and rude, etc. However, I want you to know that I am incredibly proud of you and that I totally disagree with another poster who said that you should ask your wife for divorce because you were too selfish to ever have a good marriage.My guess is that you are not normally a selfish person at all. In fact, it would not surprise me if under normal circumstances you are very selfless. You are a very confused person and may have done things at times in your life that appear to show lack of character. People who are truly good people find themselves behaving in shameful ways when caught up in the addiction of an extramarital affair - with or without sex.It is harder for you to see the patterns in the feelings your have written about because most of the people who post here are the betrayed. However, your feelings that your marriage has never been good, that you got married for the wrong reasons, that your spouse doesn't love/ appreciate/ respect/ light your fire/ etc. are incredibly typical of someone involved with another person. It is a bit frightening to me to see how many similarities there are in the feelings and beliefs of people during and after an affair. My H was once where you are. He didn't voluntarily make the admirable choice that you did. He was forced, to give up his ow before their relationship became sexual but after they had decided to leave their spouses to be together. Because of the peculiar circumstances, he and his ow abruptly cut off all contact without resumption of any kind. We began counseling with a good therapist. Almost immediately, he became one of the happiest and in love husbands you would ever ask to meet. Please do believe that this can happen for you also. I recommend that you DECIDE that you really want this, that you get professional help at first, and that you absolutely CUT OFF ALL CONTACT OF ANY KIND WITH OW. You will go through a period of withdrawal where you have mixed feelings about your decision. You will probably have moments when you feel that you have been denied the relationship of a lifetime (BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY kind of thing) My H did go through a period of withdrawal during which he mourned the loss of a relationship in which ow thought he was a superhero incapable of anything other than perfection. He in turn had thought his ow was incredibly loving, kind, needy, and sweet. With the help of a therapist who could get him to see things I could never tell him, he now realizes that she was being a manipulative selfish b*tch trying to get me out of his life. However, I know that those bad qualities are not part of her true character either - she too was living under a desperate addiction to the fantasy they had created with each other. We see ow, her H, and her children regularly. That is the hardest part for us. It doesn't bother my H, but it does trigger hurt for me. It is a reminder that my H, whose strength of character I have always admired above all else - even more than his incredible good looks and wonderful love making! You will not have to deal with that. It may be hard at first to think of never seeing or talking to AZ again, but since your view of her is a fantasy anyway, the Az you think you know never really existed. You will feel guilty that she will hurt, but she assumed that risk when she went upstairs with you that first night and everytime after that when she has carried on a relationship with a married man - her hurt and loss is not your fault or your burden. M(My H's ow repeatedly told him that if he could find happiness or needed to try to work it out with his family that was just what she wanted him to do IF he could live with himself.)None of us are perfect, but all of us can rekindle special love for and attraction to our spouses if we are not overwhelmed by the newness and drama of an extramarital affair where the op is NOT going to do or say anything that might make you less attracted to her.You are going to need to be committed and there will be some rough spots while your wife is working through the pain of your betrayal. Be positive and know that you will recover faster than you can possibly imagine so long as you cut if off totally with AZ. There are many depressing posts on these boards where couples remain together and miserable although one of them is really trying and is doing the right things. Those are cases - almost without exception - where the betrayer has not cut off contact with op or or where alcohol or other substanse abuse is involved or where one of the parties has a real psychological disorder.Keep posting. Get the support you need from the really good people on these boards. Many of us may sound harsh at times, but we truly want you to find the real happiness that is only available to you when you genuinely give your marriage a chance with NO outside distraction. I am so optimistic and excited for you for having made this decision on your own BEFORE your wife had to deal with this! You really are a good person. I believe your wife will forgive you and will soon get excited about developing a fun, loving, and passionate new marital relationship with you when you begin to honestly communicate with her about your needs. Good luck. Keep posting.

Are we still on this? Oh well, he SAYS he is staying with wife, ending contact with OW and is going to work on his marriage. Could this be him telling the MB what some want to hear, so that it gets easier in here? HHHMMM.... WTD, you are not working on your marriage by not telling wife what you really are about. This is not your first affair, this is not your first time deceiving your wife. Either 1 of 3 things will happen. You will continue affair with AZH with wife in the dark, or fall into another affair continuing your pattern or you will GROW UP and see that your wife deserves to find the happiness you say you have found with OW. I am with Elixir on this one. Your marriage was never real, especially to your wife who has been totally kept in the dark and her health continually being put at risk.

Another thing. It is so FUNNY how some of you are soooooo upset by some of the not so nice responses to WTD and AZH. Well I ask, who the hell are YOU to tell us how we should resond to a question. Some of rambled off some mumbo jumbo, about the strengh of their characters being SO STRONG to even come here! WHAT? It doesn't take strength to TYPE in a story to TOTAL STRANGERS whom you will never meet! It takes character to put in the work, to correct a wrong, to learn and grow. But that is my opinion and I am certainly entitled to say so especially when ASKED. And like it or not he did ask questions in his first post and at the end "PLEASE ADVISE". Get over yourselves people. And I hope people including WTD and AzH continue to EXPRESS themselves. Just be able to take it when you put yourselves on here. Have a nice day. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sorry I haven't posted back more often, but I've not had much time or desire. I've made what possibly was the hardest decision of my life today....to break off contact with the OW(AZ) and try to work on my marriage.WTD, do it. And it has to be no contact. I'm not going to apologize for any other responses, I can only answer for myself. It is definitely a matter of perspective. You don't sound like an awful person to me, but a very confused one. My h was there a few months ago. Did you read my replies?? We are a success story. He now says it was like temporary insanity and he has really taken her out of his heart.I've read many posts that talk of an affair like an addiction....and I can honestly say that it is.It truly is, and that is why it is so disorienting. It will take 4-6 weeks for the withdrawal if you really give your heart back to your family.[b/b]At this point, It seems that disclosure of the affair seems to be a key point in starting the healing process, but I'm not ready for that yet. I was going to begin by addressing the state of mutual unhappiness in our marriage, and how to work together towards correcting it.I briefly mentioned this in an earlier reply. There is no good time or good way, but if you can schedule a week together first... She(wife)had actually bought the "5 love languages" book in the last year or so....we both read it, but I never really tried to follow through since AZ was still in my heart/mind and soul. I know she has been feeling the distance increase in our relationship as time has progressed.Wow, sure sounds like us again. You know, he now admits all the realizations about our not being "in-love" (or ever were) started AFTER he began the affair. Classic. I too was trying to improve our relationship, but felt the distance growing instead. I think she must really love you!! And we have small children too.Thanks again for all the heartfelt advice. I may be back for advice as I try to heal, but I think I will have to change my name to avoid all of the hostility this thread has generated.Don't change your name, prove them wrong, go back and love your wife.The one question on my mind at this early point, is will I ever be able to get the OW out of my mind? Will I ever be able free from making mental comparisons? Will I ever be able to achieve in my marriage the same type of intense feelings of love and happiness that I was addicted to in the affair?.....guess that was really three questions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1. yes, after 4 weeks, she was more on my mind as the wife. If you do the phone counselling (I highly recommend it, don't know where we would be now without it) Steve or Jenn will tell you it is up to you to distract yourself at first. But it gets easier and easier.2. You have to be very pro-active and stop making comparisons. Remind yourself this is where you chose to be (with your wife). Focus on her strengths. In time, I hope the comparisons will more than favor her as I believe they do in my husband's mind.3. Yes and no.Harley claims that the passion is created by meeting each other's needs. I'm a reluctant convert because I've seen it really happening for us. Search my recent threads if you like. We are already beginning to have the most wonderful feelings of in-loveness.The no - I'm starting to learn the difference, though. I was reading the book, Private Lies. It makes so much sense when he explains that the romance in affairs is not love but "a form of narcissistic suffering in which the specialness...gets distorted into an obsession with suffering and sacrifices to keep things intense enough to make the world and reality fade away".My h called it a "painful love". It is the illicitness that drives the excitement. The OW becomes your confidant, the one who you can share with, while the unsuspecting wife becomes the enemy that must be lied to.So, I am finally understanding the high that comes from its very illicit nature, that he now sees he was more in-love with "being in-love" than with this woman. Your wife will suffer the worst pain. I did, and I've read it here over and over. She will try to piece together her life, it is not what she thought it was. She will need you to focus on her and not be defensive as she works through sooo many emotions.------------------ Cindy[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited March 23, 2000).]