If you want to find those who have been here a while look at the topic "1000th post" they are all there ribbing each other

I can't help it I just saw something else and remembered something else when I saw you "I never loved my wife that much".<P>I have know my wife fo 19 years but for months afterwards she talked about the hell she had to live in for the last 20 years. Do the math, here is a woman would was in "hell" when we were dating, when she told me to "SH_T or get off the pot". My wife and I were MADLY in love for many years but the affair magicly erased the memory. You'll find this to be common

I know exactly what your going through.I bet you feel so powertless and all used up..Well I'm rght there with you.It's like you can't help but think what if? What if this is the person I've been waiting for all my life.I'll miss my chance! But I guess the right thing to do is try and rebuild your marriage.Because after all there was a reason why you married her.Take care

"allow them to see that I am not the cause of your marriage being messed up."<P>This is directed at your OW. I have always felt that you came to this forum in order to somehow relieve the guilt you feel about being involved in an adulterous relationship and to somehow justify this relationship. The above quote of course only confirms what I already knew. You were given support and advice but you have failed to follow any advice given here. As I have posted to your lover just what do you two expect to get here? <P>In my opinion you two deserve each other. I mean look at the great beginning your relationship had: a drunken roll in the hay with a married man who has a history of infidelity. Does'nt get any better than that does it?

<B>whattodo?</B><P>I'm saddened when I read stories such as yours. The pain and suffering caused by infidelity leaves a tremendous wake in its path. Your story is no different. <P>13 years ago you promised your wife you would never forsake her for any other woman for any reason. You broke that vow (several times by your own admission) and you now question whether you married the right person. <P>I would like to address your quotes - they are very common ones by betrayers :<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Might she not be better off with one who truly loved her?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YES! She deserves someone who loves her. Believe it or not she chose YOU! You told her you loved her. You even asked her to marry you. You selected her out of all others. You even promised that you would forsake all others for her alone. You also promised that no matter how difficult things got, you would work on them WITH her to make a happy life for both you. Before this horrible monster called infidelity entered our lives, no one ever thought it would cross our path. That happens to other people. We lose our focus n one another. The routine of life takes control and we soon find ourselves drifting apart. Instead of noticing the warning signs, one partner makes a decision that forever changes the life of everyone involved. That includes your spouse, your kids, the other person, their family, your relatives, your friends, and on and on. Long term marriages take work - hard work. Some survive infidelity - some don't. Your quote is a classic one used to justify your behavior. Rationalize that your wife would be happier without you and your decision to leave her is for her own good. She just doesn't know what's good for her. I hope you see this is a bunch of crap.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would my kids not be better off being raised in a house filled with true love between their parents?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ABSOLUTELY!!! That is why your wife agreed to have your kids. You told her you loved her and you would always be there for her so she felt safe in giving birth to your children. This quote is more often used by men. You rationalize that your wife is a great mom and you are a terrible dad and it won't make much difference if you're not there. It may even be better for them if you go because they won't see you and your wife fighting. Again, this is a bunch of crap. Your kids have a much greater chance of good parents if they see that mom and dad can love one another through tough times as well as good ones. You are not only raising your kids, you're raising your grandchildren's parents! <P>You need to understand you are caught up in the process of justifying your behavior. You've reduced your marriage to a state of being simply roommates. I tell you what - I guarantee your wife would love to feel all those icky in-love feelings again too. She never acted on her thoughts of having an affair - you did. Someone (namely YOU) needs to get things on the path of restoration. <P>You have a serious issue in regards to infidelity. You've set a pattern in motion that is going to be tough to break. Your wife may or may not forgive you. Nobody deserves the pain inflicted by this. The emotional trauma is overwhelming - I know how it feels. I'm sure this other woman is a nice lady. The fact remains, YOU are the one who broke your marriage vow, not the other woman. You could have controlled the outcome - you chose not to. Instead, this woman fell for a married man. <P>Here are your options:<BR>OPTION #1 - Tell the other woman thank you for recommending this website. Tell her thank you for being wise enough to recognize the destruction that is at hand. Tell her you're sorry for the pain you are about to inflict on her by saying goodbye. Tell her she deserves a single man who love her and not cheat on her later when things get rough. Tell her good bye. Muster up the courage to tell your wife what you've done. Tell her you want to get counseling together because you have a problem and your marriage has a problem. Tell her you will spend the rest of your life making it up to her. Tell her to never have blind trust in you again. Tell her you can both have a happy and loving marriage but it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of time to heal from this. Tell her you are sorry and that you love her. Tell her that you chose her above all others. And get help.<P>OR<P>OPTION #2 - Tell your wife that you have been unfaithful to her. Tell her you are unwilling to work things out. Tell her she does deserve a man who will be honest and faithful. Tell her you're selfish. Tell her you'll take care of the kids and her financially. Tell her none of this was her fault. And give her this website address for support - she'll need it! Tell your kids that this isn't their fault either. Tell your lover that if she marries you, you will probably be unfaithful to her too. Tell your lover that if you decide to marry, there's less than a 25% chance it will last past 5 years. <P>I apologize for being blunt, but you are in a fantasy right now and you can't see the reality that is so clear to the rest of us. <P>I think you know what the right thing to do is - ball is in your court. We're here to help if you want to make the right decision. <P><BR><B>whattodo?'s lover</B><BR>Kudos to you for trying to save a marriage. I'm sorry for the hurt you are feeling from all this. You are a victim too. There's so much hurt from this. I suggest you no longer contact this man and try to get on with life without him. It will be hard, but it is the right thing to do. <P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

Dear whattodo?,<P>I'd like to come at your problem from a different perspective. You've gotten lots of good advice on what to do, but I don't think it's reached you, at least not deep down. The reason is, your name is wrong!<P>You chose the name 'whattodo?' But you already know what to do! Your name should be 'whytodo?' since that is really where you are struggling.<P>Listen to your own words about your wife: "She is a great mother and is good to me." This isn't a rotten person who is ruining your life. You have the same type of mid-marriage staleness that virtually everyone goes through. Yet, you have been desperately searching for fulfillment, and, at least for the time being, believe you have found it with the OW.<P>It can't last. On average, the 'in love' experience lasts two years, maybe a little longer if you see each other rarely. And that's without factoring in the guilt you will feel from destroying your existing wife and kids.<P>Your everyday life leaves you empty inside, so you try to find true happiness in the arms of other women. I think we both know that can't be the 'answer' to the problem of why you feel empty.<P>The true answer is that God created each one of us with an empty place deep inside that can only be filled by Him. Some try sex, others drugs, others success in business, but everyone is searching for meaning and fulfillment in life. But nothing else ever satisfies! Oh, there are brief periods where we think we have 'found it', but they never last.<P>Stay married to your wife. Divorce her and marry the OW. The result will ultimately be the same: you will still feel empty inside.<P>There is only one cure for the illness from which you are suffering. Find God.<P>I was an agnostic for 27 years. I thought religion was a crutch for weak people. Then, through problems in my own marriage, I found Him...<P>He changed my life forever.<P>I can't tell you that the circumstances of my life have been perfect since then. In fact, I have had some terribly rough times (See my post, "A story of hope... how I survived my wife's affair." But even in the middle of tragedy, my relationship with God has sustained me. My empty place is full. Do you want to be full inside, too?<P>One simple prayer can change the course of your life:<P>Dear God,<P>"I don't know You, but I want to. I want so much to be full inside, to find peace and meaning without having to run from affair to affair, knowing that I am hurting my wife and kids. I just can't do it alone anymore.<P>I come to you now, confessing that I have sinned. I repent of my sins, and believe that you sent Your only Son, Jesus, to die on a cross to pay for my sins so that I could be forgiven. I accept that forgiveness now, and pray that Your Holy Spirit will come dwell inside me. Please show me Your plan for my life, and give me Your joy.<P>In Jesus' name,<P>Amen."<P>...<P>He will show you 'whattodo'.<P><BR>BrokenButNotCrushed<P>

whattodo:<P>I think you know what the RIGHT thing to do is, but it doesn't sound like you are going to do it. Not really surprising, I guess. <P>What has your wife been doing for the past 13 years while you were picking up women in bars and having sex with them? You complain that your sex life with your wife isn't exciting enough. I wonder if she has the same complaint.<P>Maybe you are one of those people who gets their kicks out of doing something wrong. If so, your relationship with the OW is doomed.<P>It's clear that you are probably not going to follow the advice you receive here, just like the woman you are involved with didn't. Please don't use this site to try to assuage your guilt. You are welcome here as long as you are sincere, but it's obvious that neither of you are.<P>Please just go ahead and be honest with your wife. Let her know that you have endangered her life and the life of your children by having sex with women you pick up in bars and exposing your family to the possibility of AIDS, hepatitis, herpes, etc,etc,etc.<P>It will be painful for her to accept the truth about you, but she deserves to know it. She should also be tested for all those diseases you have exposed her to and begin counseling for help in dealing with the consequences of your actions.<P>If you are planning on waiting around here for someone to tell you to leave your wife for the other woman, you are wasting your time. This site is MARRIAGE BUILDERS and is for betrayeds and betrayers who want to survive infidelity, not encourage it.<P>If and when you decide to get serious about your commitment as a husband and father you will be welcomed and supported here. Just don't expect to find justification for your actions. There aren't any.<P>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited March 20, 2000).]

whattodo?<P><B>Dictionary definition of self-justification:</B><BR>The act or fact of justifying oneself, esp. of offering excessive reasons, explanations, excuses, etc.<P>So predictable. We betrayeds have heard these lame excuses over and over again. If it wasn't all so sad I'd have to laugh at the predictability of your rationalizations.<P>True, sometimes even a Herculean effort cannot save a marriage. But it doesn't sound like you have put in that effort yet. <B>And you can't do it while maintaining a relationship with OW.</B> You can't divide your emotional capital that way and expect anything but a failed marriage. <P>And you have not really given your W a chance to fight for your marriage. Don't base your decision on how your relationship has been. Bring your wife into the debate and (with the help of a counselor) see how it <B>could</B> be.<P>Like I said before, this dilemma will show what kind of character you really have. This will be the fight of your life.<BR>

Whattodo,<P><BR>I don't have much time today so I'll be blunt. <P>You said. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Might she not be better off with one who truely loved her? Would my kids not be better off being raised in a house filled with true love between their parents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She might be but you should not be the one making the decision. Are you willing to completely give up you children so that a another man can become their father?<P>Do you really want to ask that? Finally, you point out that this is not your first affair. So as of now you don't hold your marriage vows in much esteem. <P>Why don't you do the OW here a hugh favor and leave her so that she can find a man that really loves her and knows what marriage vows mean? It seems to me that you really don't much about this marriage "thing" except how to make babies.<P>I have a strong recommendation. Stay here, let the OW go and find a man that is available and honors his marriage vows, learn how to be a loving human being, and see if you can make your marriage work. <P>I presume your W doesn't know about this affair or the others, so you have yet another issue to deal with. But I will tell you this, you have to learn how to be a husband before you make any major decisions. Learn the MB tools here and apply them to your W. You might be really surprised and you may save your marriage and make it one that you enjoy.<P>But if you try and fail at least the next women you are with might have someone that knows something about being a decent H.<P>I am being very blunt here, but from reading this post, my sympathies are with your W and the OW if she is unfortunate enough to "win" you. <P>You can make your marriage happy and you can become a good H and father, but not by bailing on your W. You need to do some serious on work on yourself. <P>You have come to the right place and everyone here will help you. But ultimately you will have to take a real hard look at yourself, what you have done and are willing to do in the future.<P>I look forward to seeing you post here for awhile.<P>JL

I think that you should be honest with your wife and tell her that you have been unfaithful to her.<P>Let her make the decision if she wants to stay with you or not.<P>If this OW were so great, she wouldn't have gotten involved with you to begin with. She doesn't sound so honorable to me.<P>In addition, if this OW wanted you to work on your marriage, she wouldn't have told you to call her.<P>If you are trying to work on your marriage, there shouldn't be any contact with you at all.<P>No contact from either one of you.

(Sorry for my earlier post. Really bad mood that day.)<BR>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10<P>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited March 22, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited March 22, 2000).]

I was not going to post here any longer because I feel like I have been "helped" as much as I can but since a couple of posts were directed at me, I thought I'd respond.<P>1st to SIR HURTS ALOT. Thank you for your kind words. I made a mistake and have tried unsuccessfully to correct it. I have made quantum leaps in that I was all set to meet him in Baltimore but with the help and support of the folks on this board I decided not to go. A small but significant step in the right direction. Also we used to share MULTIPLE phone calls per day....we have cut back on those dramatically. We have not gone cold turkey (tried but failed) but do see we cannot go on like this any longer. So, I pointed him here in hopes he would be better and stronger than I was.<P>Next to KALGRL: I don't know why you feel the need to treat me like you do. I don't feel your comments are in the spirit of this board and I am going to see what I can do to have your venomous comments tamed by the moderators of this forum. <P>You don't know me. You don't know the steps or fruitless tries I have made to end this. And that goes for him as well. I wouldn't have come here if all I was after was having my guilt lessened. There is NO ONE on this board who can do that for me. Only time and help from God will lessen that. I came here seeking help. He came here seeking answers. Neither of us deserve to be treated like you have treated us. I suggest if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything. Your cruel words are NOT welcome and as I said, I will see what I can do about it. <P>For the others who offered encouragement and even stern advise....it is greatly appreciated. My hope is that "whattodo" will find answers and support and encouragement here and with that I will no longer feel the need to be here for him. I wish you could hear the pain and anguish in the conversations we have. We are not heartless narcissistic people. We truly want to do what's right, we are just strugging beyond belief in actually carrying that out. <P>I beg of you....please show him the same concern and compassion you showed me. He's searching for ANSWERS not JUSTIFICATION. Please don't make it where he doesn't want to come back. This is my last hope for him.<P>Read Sir Hurts Alots post.....to me that is the epitome of what should be offered. He doesn't condone what is going on, he is firm, yet compassionate. There were others that were the same way .... NSR and I can't remember who else. That is what I came to expect from this forum and that is why I pointed him here. If I/we weren't serious about what needs to be done, what in the world would be the motive for posting here???? Think about it and please find it in your hearts to help him. <P>Sorry if a bit long but I am so sad about what I've seen. Oh, one more thing....he hasn't had a series of affairs....he had one about 12 years ago....just after they were married. She issued him an ultimatum.... marry me or I'm moving back to NJ. They were young (only 22) and he was scared and naive and though he'd never find anyone who loved him later in life. A mistake but who among us can say they've never made a mistake. He's made a couple and now wants help in fixing the biggest hugest one.... will he find it here????

Whattodo: I just posted a thread called Private Lies.. a must read. This is quoted out of Chapt. 13 of the book Private Lies and is authored by Frank Pitman.<P>Please read this. It is why a relationship with ow will not last into a successful marriage. There are a lot of statistics I have read,, Pittman states only about 3% of affairs turn into a successful marriage. Other stats I have read is anywhere from 3-6 %,,, but lets just say its rare.. <P>My h was torn for a long time between me and ow.. He read this along with many other books before things finally worked themselves out...<P>I want to tell you flat out that the pain that my h's infidelity caused me is beyond anything I have experienced or hope to experience in my life.. I encountered many physical problems,, came close to losing my career,, all because of what happend.. so please,, dont do this to your wife,, dont do this to your kids...<P>Also pick up the bood titled Surviving an Affair.. this helped me and it helped my h.. It will help you break it off with ow,, and it explains what you are going through as addictive, and you will suffer from withdrawal from ow.. BUT IT CAN BE DONE.. You are lucky because your ow lives out of state.. It will be a lot easier for you.. My h broke it off successfully and he works at the same police dept. as ow.. IT made it a lot more difficult during withdrawal as he had setbacks when he saw her.<P>We are living proof that your marriage can survive this. My h even llived with ow for 2 months.<P>In Harleys book, SAA,, it will talk about emotional needs.. You need to work with your wife on these surveys and communicate to each other what isnt getting met, and what is important to each other. This will eventually help you and your wife feel more loving toward each other.<P>I will tell you that the fantasy you are living and thinking about with ow just wont last,, you high feeling will change if you married her and lived with her,, and had a mixed family, child support, embarrassement of the affair, x wive to deal with....All these things of real life will change.. They are stresses and problems that you wont have to deal with with your wife should you mend and work on your marriage.<P>Please think twice about what you are doing,,,it is the single most cruel thing that one human can do to another,,,,the most painful...... <P>Please read the Private Lies Thread.. There are a lot of people on this site that can help you.. God Bless and Good luck<p>[This message has been edited by mickey65 (edited March 20, 2000).]

Got to share a brief section of some thoughts that BBNC shared with me...very provacative word picture here....<P>* * * * * * * * *<BR>I know your emotions seem to compel you down a certain path, but that path <BR>leads to death! Imagine it were possible (and it may be, soon) for a <BR>scientist to embed circuits in your brain that would produce a sensation of <BR>pleasure when you witnessed certain events. Now suppose this scientist were <BR>evil, and he decided to feed you pleasure whenever you saw your family <BR>tortured. To complete the picture, imagine that you are watching someone <BR>mutilate your family, and, to your horror, it feels fantastic! And there you <BR>are, with the power to make it stop, but you don't want to, because it feels <BR>so good.<P>Could you stand there and watch your family dismembered because it felt great <BR>emotionally?<P>Except for a bit of poetic license, that's what you are doing now...<P>* * * * * * * * *<P><BR>There is a story in the Old Testament about two brothers...Jacob and Esau. Esau traded away his inheritance...his eternal destiny...because he was overcome with hunger pains...and traded off the "long term blessings" for a bowl of stew..."short-term gratification".<P>Seems like that is the norm these days with so many of us. It can be so hard to see past the pressing and immediate "needs".... It is the spirit of the age today...and I wish I could tell you it is an easy battle to fight and win. <P>Someone else said not long ago on these boards this thought as well....<P>"The pain of longing for something you cannot have is not near as intense as the pain of regret over something you could have prevented."

Whattodo,<P>Are you seeking, or have you made up your mind already?? I think some replies reflect the feeling that we are wasting our time, but I think you are seeking answers.<P>I was one who replied to AZ originally. There were many similarities with our own situation and I wanted to help.<P>My h also could not remember the passion. He went back and read his own diaries in disbelief. That is a classic symptom of the confusion caused by the affair.<P>You've already been told a lot of reasons for working on your marriage.<P>Let me tell you, the worst thing you could do to your wife and children is to go tell her it is over without trying to work it out. She will find it almost impossible to heal, and then the kids will suffer doubly.<P>What has she done that is so horrible that you would even consider it?? The pain is unimaginable. Did you tell your wife how unhappy you were with her before you started the affair?? I have wished 100 times my h had.<P>The best thing you can do now is to honestly go and work on your marriage. And to do that you will need to break all contact with OW. It will be very hard, it was for my h. But it IS necessary. You are not doing her any favors to keep having her hold out for you.<P>Let her go, and give your marriage your full attention. We were in a very similar situation, and we are a success story. The passion is better than ever.<P>But it took my h breaking all contact with OW, fully confessing to me, and carefully following the directions of Jennifer Harley, our counsellor.<P>It was very hard, for both of us. But if he hadn't, he would have never known what we could have had, and our kids ARE SO HAPPY. They don't know what happened, but they were stressed, my 4 year old was biting his nails all the way down. They DO need parents who deeply love each other, their parents.<P>

Sorry Azhootie, but you are way off base about you both wanting help here. It is clear in your posts that you both want JUSTIFICATION and UNDERSTANDING! Yes, we all UNDERSTAND how an affair can happen, but not one of you has said, I am prepared to let go. He has come here to say, WHY should I? You have brought him here to say "Well, at least I tried, so oh well, that didn't work, so let's continue what we have". KalGal is right on point, neither one of you wants help but validation. This is for people TRYING to work on it, not for people who want the OKAY to continue.

First of all, stay with your wife! Your affair with the ow is not the problem, but obviously you have a real problem in your marriage. This is not your first affair and I have no doubt that your wife knows something is going on even if she doesn't know all of the gory details. What you need to do is start fixing yourself. If you were to leave your wife and kids now, you think you would leave all of your problems behind. Unfortunately, you would take them all with you and aquire more. Do you really want to saddle your ow with all of your problems too? It sounds like your wife has been neglected for quite some time and you have not worked at meeting her needs either. Marriage takes a lot of work. What seems very natural now with the ow would very soon become work. At some point you cared enough about your wife to marry her. Why assume that you would be more willing to work on the relationship with ow than you have been with your wife. Discuss the sex issue with your w. After my h disclosed his affair we discussed things and I found out that he considered some things a 9 in importance that I assumed were a 2. Sure I could work at meeting that need, I just didn't realize before that it was a need. If you have no other reason to stay, stay for your children. Divorce is NEVER better for the kids no matter how you rationalize it. Look at what happens to the standard of living for children when the father leaves the home. Are you willing to have their life style go down while yours goes up? That is reality! Are you willing to increase the probability of drug use and teenage pregnancy? Sometimes the only reason to stay is the kids and I believe that is reason enough. Then that decided, get to work and make your marriage into something that you desire. It takes a tremendous amount of work no matter who you are married to. Get to work!!

To Azhootie,<P> I'm with all those who are telling you that this whole thread smacks of justification and no sincerity on your part. Yeah , we don't know you but we (the betrayed) "know" you, you are our worst nightmare, the OW wrapped in religious sayings and seemingly remorseful behavior....well, keep justifying and telling yourself this guy is so wonderful...you are about to destroy innocent people.<P> Oh btw, the bit about how he was forced to marry his wife because she issued him an utlimatum and he was young,so on and so on..... sorry, I think you're being had. Unless there was a shotgun to his head he wasn't forced.....if he made such a drastic mistake why didn't he divorce her? I really feel for this guy.....not. <P> Sorry to be so blunt, just calling it like I see it and not with much sympathy....LU

You know what I don't get... and lord knows why I'm even saying this... but why would the OW send the wayward spouse here? I would guess it's to keep track of his feelings in a public forum. <P>AZ, I've been your supporter before, and I still see you as someone who has hope of making your life what it can be, if you let go of this OM. I know you love him. Let him go. You CAN be strong!<P>Whattodo?, You could be my H. He's had several affairs, 13 years apart too... 2 somewhat physical and 1 emotional 13 years ago, and one emotional and totally physical in January of this year. He loved them all. I also had an affair. I loved the OM. All of it is a fantasy. Not that all love is a fantasy, but let's put it this way. Love is pure emotion. It can't be pure if you have to sneek, lie and hide. Besides the obvious energy it takes to keep the thing going like this, it's bad for your health, your psyche, and your spirit. <P>Both you and AZ need to let go, or go on your merry way and live happily ever after. But that "happily ever after"... just a fairy tale, really.

I don't get it. You folks were supportive to azhootie when she came here looking for help in ending her affair. She has tried and made some progress. Ending an affair is a lot more difficult than you can imagine. I give her a lot of credit for coming here and for pointing whattodo here as well. She KNOWS that no-one here will justify what they are doing. She KNOWS that no-one here will tell either of them to continue the affair. She has an addiction and she is seeking help to end it. Just as an alcoholic will go to an AA meeting. <P>Knowing all of this, she came her. kNowing all of this she pointed him here.<P>He's in a state of confusion that sll betrayers can identify with. I know you have all been hurt, but for a betrayer something that seems simple and common sense "Of course you need to end the affair and work on your marriage" is not that simple. It is a difficult thing to grasp when the strong emotions of the affair are there. <P>whatotdo,<P>Here is what I suggest. Stop the affair FOR NOW. Alcoholics have a one-day-at-a-time philosophy because thinking of forever is overwhelming and the feat seems impossible. I suggest taking the same approach. Put a time limit on it that seams reasonable (say 6 months or so). During that time REALLY TRY to remember and think about the POSITIVE things about your marriage. Ask your wife to tell you of some of the good things she remembers. It may trigger some memories of your own. Also, seek counseling. When you feel the urge to conteact the OW, try to hold oout one more day. Remind yourself of the deadline and then think of something positive about your wife and family.<P>If after the 6 months of SINCERE EFFORT, you feel that your marriage is not worth the effort, then re-examine the situation. At that point you can either try another 6 months or leave. And you will leave knowing that you tried. But only if you give it a SINCERE EFFORT. <P>And what JL said is right about the decision of whether your wife and kids would be better off with someone else is not yours to make. Your wife needs to know what the situation is and then be allowed to make up her own mind about the situation.<P>Keywords here:<P>SINCERE EFFORT<BR>Counseling<BR>time limit<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited March 21, 2000).]