Hello MBers,<P>I know you guys are out there. Many of you are still visiting here regularly but posting infrequently. I do the same thing!<P>My husband's affair was going on two years ago at this time of year. I didn't know it yet, but the bottom was about to fall out of my world. That happened in September of 1999. I laid in bed for four days, torn between being afraid that the hurt was going to kill me and hoping that I WOULD die to escape it. On the fifth day I sat down at the computer and found MB.<P>And I realized that I wasn't alone in this agony and that survival WAS possible with or without my husband. I lurked here for two months and read every single word before I made my first post. I was welcomed and supported. I made cyberfriends that gave me great advice. They helped me live through it when I found out eight months later that the affair was going on again. They helped me and my husband (firestorm) turn our marriage around and head in the right direction. Counseling with Steve Harley gave us the map to get to where we want to be. We are still on that journey to recovery.<P>There were not as many posters then as there are now, but we all seemed to be committed to the MB principles. There were disagreements sometimes but, with very rare exceptions, we conducted ourselves well. Even the occasional interloper was dealt with with compassion and (for lack of a better word) CLASS.<P>It occurred to me tonight that if I had left MB a year ago after DDAY #2 and only returned today, I would think I was at the wrong address! In fact, the address seems to be about the only thing that hasn't changed! I honestly wonder how much MARRIAGE BUILDING is going on in this site right now because I see very little.<P>This place really helped save my life, my sanity, my family, and my marriage. It did the same for many of you. PLEASE let's come out of the woodwork and see if we can help to get things back on track so that it can provide the same help for others.<P>Please share your special thoughts and memories from your MB past on this thread. Make some suggestions for ways to get this forum back to the safe haven that it used to be. Share some ideas for returning this site to the focused supportive place that it was for us.<P>Thanks!<P>Peppermint

Peppermint:<P>MB has saved zorweb's and my marriage. The principles do work. And 98.76 percent of my posts (or some number akin to that) deal with people facing the issues my wife and I had when I had my affair, and we were stumbling around.<P>Fortunately, like you, we (well, she) found Dr. Harley's books and MB and it was a breath of fresh air blowing the fog out.<P>Now, to address the "rudeness" that you perceive. The price of success? Possibly. However, you must look at the historical perspective of people such as HumbleDorkFish.<P>Yes, we could ignore her. Yes, we could be all mamby-pamby, mealy-mouthed and enable her. There comes a point where it is no longer help we offer; but codependency in some sick game they play.<P>So, it comes down to the iron fist in the velvet glove, doesn't it? Particularly when you have somebody like Dorkfish going off to gloryb.com to post, cackling about her "adventures" here. Sometimes, Peppermint, tough love is the best course.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but we all seemed to be committed to the MB principles. There were disagreements sometimes but, with very rare exceptions, we conducted ourselves well. Even the occasional interloper was dealt with with compassion and (for lack of a better word) CLASS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Only "Old Timers" understand MB principles? Only Old Timers comported themselves well? Only Old Timers have compassion? It would not be hard for the non-astute to see your phraseology as condescending and lacking class. It could be construed as me saying, "I helped build the World Wide Web ... see what you johnny-come-latelies have done with <I>my</I> web!" (As an aside, Al Gore was not in evidence when we in the Government were architecting it.)<P>HumbleDorkFish was accorded a warm welcome, however <I>her</I> conduct over the past several months, her badgering and bad-mouthing of the regulars here <I>who do seek to apply MB</I> has reached a head.<P>Infrequent visitation by "Old Timers" lack the overall perspective of the current crop of frequent posters. So, therefore, judging the conduct of current posters with only intermittant eyes-dropping and no currency and perspective of current threads and inter-relationships, and then posting snide comments of the "superior old days" smacks of patronizing condescension.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It occurred to me tonight that if I had left MB a year ago after DDAY #2 and only returned today, I would think I was at the wrong address! In fact, the address seems to be about the only thing that hasn't changed! I honestly wonder how much MARRIAGE BUILDING is going on in this site right now because I see very little.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You also cite that you only occassionally look in. There is a hell of a lot of marriage building going on. There are a heck of a lot of true MB believers here (me being one of them). See posts by zen, WAT, JustPlainCali (and her myriad other names), Rick37, MarkC ... the list goes on and on. What gives "Old Timers" a patent on insights and understanding? No moreso than the current bunch.<P>You Old Timers don't like the way things are going? Then lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. I will semi-apologize for the previous statement, it is a semi-vent. You aren't the first (nor probably the last) "Old Timer" to say what you said (I just happened to have insomnia and was online.) Posting once a month does no one any good. It saved your marriage, your life, you say? Good. Return the favor, help save someone else's.<P>Why do you think my wife and I post? Because of that very fact ... this site helped recover our marriage and our sanity. So we keep posting because we want to give back to the community that helped us. We do get into lulls ... answering every post every day would be a fulltime job. But we try ... as do countless others here, many of them almost daily.<P>So, a word to <I>all</I> Old Timers. You aren't the only ones who have Seen The Light. You aren't the only ones capable of carrying the MB torch.<P>So stow the self-superiority and pitch in and help, dammit ... there are a lot of people out there that could benefit from your successes. But no one benefits from posts that belittle the current crop of people caught on the rollercoaster you were on two years ago.<P>As for making this a safe haven: it already is. Ask Cali, ask countless others who have poured their hearts out and been directly or indirectly attacked and had the community circle 'round the wagon.<P>OK ... to use an analogy: the pioneers pushed out ahead. Sometimes the cavalry has to ride out. In this case, a self-appointed mission, yes. Hmmm ... so were the last 8 of my 10 years in active service. So were all my years of National Guard time. Moderators can't be everywhere: nor is it usually appropriate for them to intrude. So we hearty not-quite-frontier folk rally 'round on occasion and give the marauding indians what-fer.<P>As the Alleghonquin Indians say: Neh ka neh tah. We lead, others follow.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 28, 2001).]

STL,<P>You quoted "rudeness" but I didn't use that word, so maybe you have my post confused with another. Also, I neither said NOR implied that only old-timers understand MB, have compassion, etc.<P>As to my being "condescending and lacking class", go back and read your own post. And you can "construe" that any way you please.<P>I did not "cite" that I only occasionally look in. I read the posts on this site nearly everyday. I reply when it is a post that I have knowledge enough to help with and if there is a different perspective from the other replies.<P>I am certainly aware that you and your wife are frequent posters. I wish more couples with recovering marriages could do the same. I am glad to see you "carrying the MB torch". I simply thought you and your wife might want some help. My mistake. You can have your "semi-apology" back to make up for it.<P>By your edict, I have three options. I can "lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way". I don't want to lead you and have no desire to follow you. Therefore that leaves me with the choice of getting out of your way. Consider it done.<P><BR>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited July 28, 2001).]

Hi peppermint. My regards to firestorm. I hope you both are healthy.<P>Let me referee here a little.<P>You and STL are both right, but, STL, take a deep breath. I think you read too much into her post, but I understand your perspective. I'll call my self a "bridger" - not as "old" as peppermint, but been here a long time. I plainly see both perspectives you both have addressed.<P>The big change in this site is its population. This finally came into stark reality earlier this month with the server problems brought on by too much traffic. Steve and I discussed this recently - the population increase is sweet and sour. With it comes more opportunity to help more people, but it also brings technical problems and "popularity" of a different sort.<P>This brings me to the discussed issue. Attitude.<P>We no longer have the "good ole days." There are a heck of a lot more moving parts. There is much more diversity and yes, those who seem to be interested only in disruption.<P>I too, have been frustrated and wrote some things I shouldn't have because I got sucked into the dark side mentality - trying to fight fire with fire instead of cooling it off with kindness. Just like affairs, we're all susceptible to it.<P>So, this is our current reality. We DO have people participating here who are not sincere. This seems to be a change brought on simply by having more people here. I don't know what to do about it. Maybe it's no more complicated than dropping back to good ole reliable Golden Rule. Maybe that's naive.<P>Dave (WAT)

Peppermint:<P>You did not directly state "rudeness" ... that is why it was in quotes. You implied it in the tenor of your post.<P>The lead, follow or get the hell out of the way was a challenge to post more frequently. I am sorry you feel as if you must "get out of the way." The intent was for you, and Old Timers in general to be more proactive.<P>The people who have gone before have success stories to relate. Have seen things that work, that have not worked. The MB principles are a framework to apply, not a rigid dogma. Having active participation by those well on the road to recovery would be a blessing and example for many (including myself).<P>As to being "condescending and lacking class" ... my statement explicitly said that a <I>non-astute</I> person could easily see it that way. I am, I believe, fairly astute. I got your overall intent and laud you for it.<P>You got partially in the way at a general Old Timer vent ... as I pointed out.<P>... Dave ... thanks for the white-and-black shirt ...<P>I alluded to population increase. Ergo, more population, more chance of friction. And we all are susceptible to human frailties such as anger and other emotions of the moment.<P>What I would <I>love</I> to see are the Old Timers (and the Bridgers ... is that Jim Bridger, by the way?) ... those who have seen and experienced successes using MB's tenets take a more active role.<P>And not take an occasional potshot lamenting the "good old days" ...<P>So, post, post, post, Peppermint: give heart out there to those who need the beacon of success to take that next step, that next breath ... that is the gauntlet I would lay down to challenge those who have gone before.<P>WAT:<P>Check out <A HREF="http://www.zorweb.com/refmat/ms.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.zorweb.com/refmat/ms.html</A> ...<P>[Peppermint: yep, you were right, I miscited ... you specifically stated you look in frequently and post seldomly. I apologize for that.]<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 28, 2001).]

You should be a little milder in your tone--this was exactly what Peppermint was trying to say: "Old Timers, post more."<P>I have a great huge amount of respect for this lady, though I don't think that I have ever written to her directly and told her that. I don't believe that she deserves this harshness.<P>Some old-timers don't post all that often because they have fallen out of touch--it is hard to keep up with the individuals here when you have a busy schedule. Some have had a good start in recovering in their marriages and the heartbreak and pain manifested on this site brings back only horrible memories--time to move on to make good memories. And then there are some like me, I guess, I really don't have anything that valuable to contribute as my marriage has pretty much been at a standstill. He is confusing and growing stranger everyday and detailing every little point does not feel theraputic to me, just bothersome.<P>It is not "reflection on the good old days" to state that MB is much different than it was even a year ago. My first post was on 24 July 2000 after a coupla weeks o' lurking. True, back then, there might a particularly confused person that appeared now and again--but always with questions and a desire to set things straight, whatever the case may be. This has been the Summer of The Weirdos--people that have no constructive reason to be here other to lash out at other people and spout corrupt ideology. Why this is, I don't know.<P>This is a wonderful site--it and the people here, a few having become close personal friends--have made me so happy in the face of the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I too, wish that things would turn around a become what they were: therapy, friendship, companionship, education. I lurk everyday, but rarely post anymore. However, I am really beginning to hate all the dumb fights, namecalling, sarcasm and put-downs that seem to be humorous, but are really serving to egg the jerks on. The "recipe" threads are so dumb.(although I have collected many great recipes--one of my hobbies) I think that when an ignorant person appears and tries gets a rise out of constantly publishing bullcrap, they should just be ignored until they disappear. It's like little kids saying "I know you are but what am I?" back and forth--it's not constuctive and it takes up space.<P>Peppermint knows what she's talking about.

<P>23 months here at MB......<P>please, Peppermint....<P><BR>Hold the door for me......<P>I'm right behind you......<P>Dylan<P>ps:<P>the fact is that some of us "old-timers" and 'veterans' of MB have been here for almost 2 or more years, you cannot discount the fact that yes, perhaps we do indeed know more about the principles (having applied them for this long)...or that we have seen a larger spectrum of stories and experiences......<P>Peppermint and a few others (K, JL, Heartpain, Nyneve, myself, Samantha....etc...have posted these 'types' of threads for 3 months now.....<P>but, of course since we are so mired in the self-importance of being old-timers, there must not be any merit to our feelings.....all of us must be wrong, and he-who-jumps-in-with-insults....<P><BR>oh nevermind.<P><BR>23 months here at MB......<P>please, Peppermint....<P><BR>Hold the door for me......<P>I'm right behind you......<P>Dylan<P>

Many of you "old-timers" probably don't recognize me but, Peppermint, I was right there with you in 1999. I found this site almost immediately and I read and read and REread everything on here before I even lurked at the forums....I think the MB concepts saved my marriage and my sanity. <P>I printed out concepts, questionnaires, anything and my husband and I both latched on the mb priciples. <P>When I finally was brave enough to venture onto this board I lurked for weeks before ever posting. So many different situations, yet so many could have been me! <P>I have the greatest admiration for those that could/can/do take the time and FOCUS long enough to answer/help/support so many. I unfortuantely am not one of them. I still have trouble FOCUSING long enough to post, questions or responses....<P>-Brighterdays<P><p>[This message has been edited by brighterdays (edited July 28, 2001).]

Peppermint,<P>I agree with you completely! I have been here for 19 months now and for a while now, I feel the forum hasn't been as "Marriage Builder-ish" as it used to be. <P>Everyone used to welcome new people and give them lots of support and advice. If they took that advice, that was fine. If not, that was fine also. There weren't all of the "disrespectful judgements" that you sometimes see now. If an OW posted and tried to hurt others, we ignored them. Eventually they went away. It's not much fun to kick others when they're down if they see they're not getting to you! <P><BR>Good to hear from you again!<P>Mitzi

It's hard to give a great welcome to every newcomer on here. I know I've tried, but I'm still a fairly 'newbie' myself. So even though I'm in recovery thanks to the MB concepts, I'm still a rookie.<P>When I joined a few months back, the person who seemed to be the official welcomer was able to cover them all. NSR (Jim), has now been moving on with his life because of his new job. He just doesn't have the time anymore, and that is totally understandable.<P>I have noticed that Nyneve has made similar welcomes like NSR used to always do... but again, she's busy, and can't do it all.<P>I don't know what MB was like before I joined (obviously! LOL), but I have noticed a huge number of 'newbies' in only the last few weeks even.<P>If any of you want to see this board get back to where is used to be, you're going to have to be the ones to do it. If you don't have the time, which is totally understandable, then I really don't see how you can expect it to happen on its own.<P>Think about it. I know nothing about putting a computer together. If someone told me to put one together, I'd have no clue. But if someone who knew how to do it were to guide me through the process, I could eventually do it on my own, and in turn, teach others as well.<P>Karen<BR>

I agree that the principles work, and that those of us (be they oldtimers, veterans, or simply well-educated posters of any vintage) who have expereince using them can help by posting more often.<P>Problem is that most of us never really HAD hours and hours a day to hang out here...we were in agony, and so kept coming back, often at the expense of other things that needed doing. At some point, one has to limit one's time a bit more. Then there's also the "emotional drag" factor...sometimes you need to take a break to heal a bit more.<P><B>The other problem I see is that it gets very old trying to redirect people who come here without reading any of the materail first. </B> After a while, you feel like you are wasting 90% of your time anyway. It seems that since the site update (which I mostly love), we get a lot more clueless folks who have not read the basic concepts at all.<P>As I recall, you used to go thru the "Welcome to the Forum" screen to access the boards (which directed you to read Basic concepts, etc) now folks often appear to go directly<BR>to the boards (I assume via the "quick clicks" on the right on the homepage. IMHO, this is a BIG problem...some new folks flounder for days b4 anyone directs them to read the basic material, and some experienced posters get tired of "redirecting" and give up. If possible, getting new folks to go thru that "welcome" screen again would be great.<P>I took a 3 week break a while back, as I was just overloaded, but found myself drawn back, because I really DO believe this site made a difference to me & so many others. Like Peppermint, I think we all just want it to do the same for others.<P>Kathi<P>

Karen,<P>That's just the type of thing Peppermint was trying to do on this thread. And look at the type of response she got! It's kinda disappointing when that happens.<P>Mitzi

Mitzi:<P>I think one of the biggest downfalls with online posting and chatting, is that it is SO HARD to find the right words that won't get misinterperated in some way. Smilies, Frownies, and exclamation marks just don't cut it sometimes. <P>I tell my H to F. Off all the time. WHAT??? How can I rebuild my marriage using such vulgar language? See, you can't hear the tones I'm implying. So, I'll add that those words only come out when he's giving me tickle torture and I'm crying with laughter while trying to tickle him back. <P>Karen<BR>

Karen,<P>Most of the time, it's fairly easy to tell tone in writing. In the threads relating to Humblefish, there is definately a sarcastic tone and a lot of disrespectful judgements. Not exactly a fun exchange of conversation. And a few posts on this thread were rude. (Not meaning yours! )<P>The MB principles should be applied to every person in your life and every situation, not just in a marriage. <P>Mitzi

I registered at MB 12/98...counting on my fingers & toes...33 months? No I don't have that many fingers & toes . I still post pretty much everyday. H & I are together, I rarely need advice--and it always seems to come down to "wear a thong". <P>And for the "bridgers" & newbies, there are friendships beginning & building. They do support each other.<P>Peppermint, you were always good , but there were sometimes when I was filled with so much pain I'm not sure my posts to others--especially a drop-in OW--were positive.<P>I think about leaving, but I feel so indebted to MB--there through my 2nd through 7th separations and now the recovery. <P>And so, I pay it forward...I don't read every thread. Although I recognize all the names on this thread, I wouldn't want to have to write an essay on each one . <P>But on a specifically worded post you don't have to know everything.<P>I wrote a reply earlier in the week to a newbie saying "do Plan A" the poster writes back "but we aren't having sex now what do you say" I said "do plan A". Sheesh.<P>I don't spend as much time, all the time, as I used to, but I make a point to look for those difficult posts or no repsonses...I can address separation, mulitple Ddays, his nearly 2 years of fence sitting, being both WS & BS, having that "inappropriate male friend" during my H's PA, my serving the D papers. Ugly stuff. I didn't handle everything right, sometimes I wonder how we made it (faith in God, MB, a great counselor). But I know what my H & I did that was good, that makes it possible now to lay in bed and giggle. <P>I also miss my "contemporaries" that were fighting their battles at the same time, like you Peppermint, but how long do we stay? New people still arrive daily. I'm aware I compartmentalize my MB time from the rest of my life. This is where I review my current actions and get reminded "oh yeah, lovebusting isn't productive." Duh. <P>Oops. I rambled. I miss rambling . <P>Peppermint, Soulloss don't be banging out that door. I'll miss you.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

HI all,<BR>I have been at mb since abt the beginning of 99. Yikes-now there is a scary thought!!! <BR>I feel we all need little reminders as to why we are here. <BR>Words, and sometimes actions, are easily misinterpreted. I often catch myself writing in snippets-which are easily misinterpreted as short and rude. If I was speaking the same words, the inflection and body language would aid the listener and they would know the real intent. <BR>I know that I read some things and totally miss the boat. Depending on my mood and time, I try to ask for clarification.....good intentions but I know I fail at that more often than I succeed. Maybe some of us should pop in more often and offer more guidance?<BR> <BR>Nice to see you all. Have a great Saturday. <BR>From the oldy & moldy cl<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitzi:<BR><B>Karen,<P>Most of the time, it's fairly easy to tell tone in writing. In the threads relating to Humblefish, there is definately a sarcastic tone and a lot of disrespectful judgements. Not exactly a fun exchange of conversation. And a few posts on this thread were rude. (Not meaning yours! )<P>The MB principles should be applied to every person in your life and every situation, not just in a marriage. <P>Mitzi </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm glad to know that my post wasn't interperated as rude.. b/c it wasn't meant to be. <P>As far as the Humblefish thing goes. I'm at a loss. I want to start a thread suggesting that people just stop reading her stuff. But to me, that's only adding fuel to the fire. In some cases, avoidance is really the best option. I personally haven't a clue what's going on with her and why people are so upset. Why? Because I don't care about her. She originally came for help here, and I believe I may have even posted a response back then (not sure though... and knowing me, I was doing my best at staying as neutral as possible.. the only time I lose my neutrality is when I get p.o'd at someone's WS by the hurt they're causing the BS and kids... and I want to beat some sense into the WS!!.. okay.. I've rambled again.. oops! ).. anyways... I'm avoiding her posts. Even now, I don't feel the urge to see what all the hubbubb is about. I'd rather use my time (which I really need to cut down on) on people who want help at their long term goal in rebuilding their marriage.<P>Peppermint: I'm sorry for whisking your thread off on a different tangeant.. but I don't feel comfortable starting a new thread on this HF person. But I've been DYING to say something about it.<P>Karen

Hello There Dear Peppermint!<P>I've been wondering about you and Firestorm the last few weeks, as I hadn't seen you pop in in awhile! Hope all is well with the both of you.<P>I've been here 23 months now, as I lurked for 2 months before posting. H and are blessed to have a marriage better than we ever dreamed possible now. I can relate to what you are saying. It is "different" here in the last 12 months or so. I think some of it is due to sheer volume and Kathi is right, things have been more chaotic since you can go directly to the boards without first getting the prompt to read the material. Maybe that is something Steve can help us with. <P>There is less tolerance now for differing points of views. It used to be, that when a different opinion was expressed, it was not felt necessary to jump in and "correct" the other or force one's own opinion as the "right" one. It was simply left for the original poster to determine if it offered anything of worth for their own situation.<P> At the risk of being flamed myself, I will say that there is too much commiserating going on here. Commiserating is helpful in small doses but it can also help to keep people stuck in the same old rut and victim role if not tempered with constructive ideas on how to move up and out of the misery we all share/have shared. Sometimes posts of this nature will go on for 2 pages without the benefit of contructive ideas on how to either change the situation or view it in a different light. Commiserating at great lengths also keeps the mood of the board depressed and hopeless and I think that contributes to the lack of posting by the more experienced members. I know it does for me. Sometimes it is just too overwhelmeing to try to cut through all of the tragedy to be a small voice calling out in the wind. You end up feeling that you just don't make that much of a difference for the amount of emotional energy it takes to read and digest the post and then send a well thought out response. <P>It takes a lot of mental and emotional energy to keep coming here once your marriage is recovered. There is no way to respond to all of the tragedy that continually mounts here without becoming effected and carrying that back to your own marriage which you are trying to recover. That's why I can't respond more than I do. I have been feeling, for the last 3-4 months that it is time for me to leave this place. I haven't because there are a handful whom I have become concerned and interested in the outcome of their situations. Sticking around, has the added effect of drawing me to stories who are so much like my own, that I feel an almost sense of urgency to post and offer help. So, I am still here but probably not for too much longer. I need to start putting my focus totally in the forward direction for the sake of my dear H who has evolved into the most wonderful man I could imagine and whom I wouldn't trade for the world. <P> Peppermint it was very good to hear from you. Your concerns and observations are valid. I just don't know if there is much we can do to change things to any great degree. God's blessings and the best to all of you!

Off topic here…….<P>Topie25,<P>The fuss about HumbleFish yesterday was because it has become evident that she did not come here for help. It’s been an ongoing game for her. She is a regular on gloryb.com (aka REM). She thought this was all rather funny. So those who had put a lot of energy into her were royally angry when she started calling MB’s manipulators, etc. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011112.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011112.html</A> <P>I do not believe she will be back here as her game is up. <P>Z<BR>

TO STL:<P>That poor woman Peppermint was just trying to make some constructive comments, and you WENT OFF ON HER! What is your PROBLEM????<BR>Maybe it's time to increase the dosage on your psycho medication.

Peppermint,<BR>"Please share your special thoughts and memories from your MB past on this thread. Make some suggestions for ways to get this forum back to the safe haven that it used to be. Share some ideas for returning this site to the focused supportive place that it was for us."<P>Back to your original request........<P>I found this site in approx Mar 1998 after discovering my H's long term affair in Jan 98. I only wish I had known the MB principles prior to discovery (I would have handled things much differently) but heyy,,I had no reason to research "infidelity",,Not my H,,right?? I did research "infidelity" when I realized I was having a real problem with the pain, hurt and anger. Thanks to MB principles and concepts, the many useful suggestions and advice, and the support of positive friends, I have managed to survive and we have saved our marriage. Equally as important, I am posting this from the safety of my home, not in a jail cell which is where I was heading with that anger and desire for revenge. ( )<P>I do post infrequently, but read often. You are right in that the number of new posters daily makes it extremely difficult to keep up with everyone's story. Now, I must confess, (as many of you already know )I am not a computer genius. Getting from place to place, cutting and pasting etc, is not my specialty. Remember when we had "our story" attached to the sunglasses profile attached to our names? I realize with the new and improved formats, we have the capabilty to find each posters stories but it's alot of paging and jumping around for me,,and I'm easily lost. I wonder if we could get that back. Just a VERY short synopsis of our situation,,not a book. And also get the email address (for those that chose to reveal it) on our sunglasses profile. I often hesitate to answer a post for fear of sticking my foot in my mouth when I realize I have no clue of the posters situation. I don't know if this is possible but it sure would make it easier to research a poster. Just an idea...<P> <P> <P><BR>

Sweet, sweet Peppermint,<P>I wrote a looooooo-ng response and it was lost! And now I don't have time to recreate it! <P>Honey, how's this: I understand. I've written the same thoughts, as you know...<P>...and yes, it's sad... and yes, it's frustrating... and yes, it hurts my spirit to see the infighting (even on this very thread! Sheesh!!).<P>I love MB, been here for 2 years and counting... my FRIENDS are here, and I use the concepts in my new marriage to avoid the problems my first marriage encountered. I believe it works, even though my first marriage was not salvagable. <P>This place saved me for awhile. Now, I work on leaning on God, my H, and heck, even myself.<P>Love to all,<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Reality check, what you just did is what peppermint was trying to avoid. I am new and I see a lot of negative things in here. If you have nothing of any great importance to the particular thread, do not post. If you feel the need to flame, slam, be mean to another, make your own thread and let the person deal with you as they wish too.<BR> For the more experienced on the board. I have read SAA, give and take, His needs her needs, and have discovered some great advice. Do you have any recomendations of other books, I am 10 months from D day and my spouse and I are doing all the right things, but I can always use more ideas. We did not have to plan A, and will never have to Plan B. Is that normal?? Or are we still in a honeymoon phase of recovery? It seems that most things just re fit once we figured out where we made the biggest mistakes. I think that to anyone getting married, you should give them a copy of Give and Take.

alexy,<P>I can't recommend many books, I only read Surviving an Affair. But it did help. (Well, it helped me but not my marriage. I'm divorced!) It sounds to me like there is a possibility that you and your H are doing well. Just be prepared for some bad days. Sometimes they just like to sneak up on you! Hope all continues to go well!<P>Mitzi

zorweb:<P>thanks for the link.. but I won't click on it. I refuse to read that stuff. I think it's more that I don't trust me for what I may want to post. I am assuming it's a link to her stuff, right?<P>I don't doubt that the anger and frustrations that anyone has posted is validated... I just want to stay away. <P>Just like what's been mentioned in this thread, I have a hard time reading some things, because it only brings me back to the hurt I don't really want to experience again. For now, I think of it as healing (because it hurts a little less each time I see or help someone else through a similar experience).<P>I see myself as many of you so called 'old timers' (I don't like that term... wise ones fits better.. but that also implies 'old'... can you tell I have age issues? LOL - I'll be 30 in 2002, I've been dreading that number my whole life! ). <P>I have a natural instinct to want to help people, it's just me. And I have to assume that those of you that have been here for so long have the same instinct. For now, I still need to be here, to ask questions, and to try and help others. But it's not something I'll want to need at some point. I just wish you all the best in 'breaking free' of this site if you need to, and can already feel how difficult a decision that will be, should you decide to do it.<P>Karen<BR>

HI alexy, and all,<BR>Torn Asunder is another good book. Helped me stay focused on the goal in the earlier months. <BR>Then I moved onto Smedes books to try to learn that elusive art of forgiveness. <BR>ANd, I am still working on it! That is not to say Smedes is not a good teacher, I am just a poor student in some areas. <BR>My h was a serial cheater and I found books by Carnes to be quite helpful during recovery. <BR>I think Chris has a book list on his website? We have posted some reviews in the past and seems he collected them?<BR> cl<BR>

I wish I had more time, but I have a couple of minutes...If this thread is still current tonight or tomorrow I will return(your greatest nightmare, right??)...<P>Peppermint and Dylan, I'll go out the door with you, but we are just going into the front yard for a breather, right??? I'm a veteran of 25 registered months here, a couple more as a lurker....<P><B>STL - </B> "humbledorkfish"?? Let's see what does that resemble?? ... A ... disrespectful judgement?? Yeah, that's the ticket...And this <I>before</I> knowing she was also posting on gloryb...Also the "attack" on Peppermint was uncalled for. I told you this before, but you take all this stuff too personally. You and Z seem to want to "lead" here, and I salute that effort because you bring perceptions and experiences here that we all need. However, you seem to be having problems with the difference between "leader" and "boss". As for HF's presence coming to a "head", why not just ignore her instead of engaging in a "battle of wits". A battle, by the way, which compared to you, she was entering unarmed.<P>When confronted with the "friction" you mention, there are <I>two</I> alternatives. Strike out against the source, or distance yourself from the cause. Seems that given the nature of this board, option 2 is always preferable.<P>Please don't use this thread to get into one of your "patented" wars with rc(even if deserved)...you are better than that...<P><B>Dylan - </B> Thanks for acknowledging my efforts to bring this issue to the table...Didn't think anyone was paying much attention to me on this...<P><B>Topie -</B> If you are giving me a choice between "old-timer" and "wise one"...guess I have to choose the former, 'cause I don't feel very wise...just lucky to have found this board and my friends on it....<P>--DeWayne--

Hi, Old Friends (and new ones)!<P>Well, Peppermint, I'll bet you didn't realize this thread was gonna be a landmine did ya?????? <P>I know what you're trying to say. Tell you the truth, I pop on a few days a week to look for old friends. I agree with motherboard (I know I spelled that wrong) there's much more commiserating than learning these days...I stop on threads talking about WS behavior and here a blast of "What disrespect! I wouldn't put up with it!" and on and on. Heck, when we posted the same things, we were met with "Now you've read the material, you KNOW this is waffling, you KNOW this is normal, you KNOW you can't control your spouse, you KNOW you need to expect this, stop reacting to the things they say and do and stay the course." <P>As to why we don't post. Heck, I'm no expert. Only have my experiences to share. Don't even agree with ALL MB principles, though I do most of them. And, like Lor said, when I seriously answered a post using principles I was ignored or, better yet, e-mailed that I didn't know what I was talking about 'cause things had been too easy for me since Robert only lived with PT for 7 months! More than once. OooooooKKKKKKKK! Not a big deal, but I come here to give back..if it doesn't help, I'll keep my trap shut, know what I mean? <P>With a good marriage now, I don't have all the time in the world (amazing how much more posting you can do when you're not sleeping at night, huh? ) I'll see a thread I think I can help and I'll search for background and try to read all I can about the couple. I know for a fact that a couple of other MBers do the same - oldies I mean. Sometimes, we just give up. Sometimes, we don't feel welcome.<P>For all the newer members...we're not experts, don't pretend to be. We're farther along on this ride and have made so very many mistakes that we know them all by heart. We try to help. Don't mean to sound patronizing either. I remember my first post. Robert had left and I wanted to die. Bozo's Deb wrote to me that it would get better, I would FEEL better. Of course, I was sure that she never felt about HER husband the way I felt about mine!!! LOL She was right. And she was offering comfort. So many "oldies" when I first came on in '99 came on and gave me the best advice in the world. And I appreciated it, even when I didn't understand it, before I even "got it", even when I disagreed. Now, I don't post because sometimes I'm made to feel as though I'm intruding. <P>Your "call to arms" for all of us to help current members was misinterpreted and met with the same sort of thing that I've found more and more often. So, I stop giving back. On the board. I keep in touch with old friends. I email new ones who email me that they WANT to hear what I have to say. Every now and then I'll stick it out there again 'cause I just want to ease someone's pain, give them hope or say SOMETHING to make them stop destructive behavior. But, most of the time, I keep my mouth shut.<P>Good to see everyone here. Hey, there's one thing I'm very proud of. Judging from the responses, no one's forgotten MB, just being quiet.<P>Love,<P>Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heartpain:<BR><B>Topie -</B> If you are giving me a choice between "old-timer" and "wise one"...guess I have to choose the former, 'cause I don't feel very wise...just lucky to have found this board and my friends on it....<P>--DeWayne--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope, not giving anyone a choice.. but in a screwed up way, perhaps trying to come up with a term that doesn't imply age! LOL. I don't like the term 'experts' either. IMO, there's no such thing as a life expert, so that term is inappropriate for here.<P>Does anyone have any suggestions? Actually, scratch that... I'm going to put a post on here for some... and stop taking peppermints thread off course.<P>Karen<BR>

Alexy:<BR>I'd like to say I'm sorry honey, but I'm not.<BR>STL is a pompous [censored] (and a serial cheater, too, by the way)He needs a taste of his own medicine once in a while. He's like the little brat in the playground. If he doesn't get his way, or if someone disagrees with him, he screams and yells and throws his toys at people.<BR>And the fact that he can copy things out of a dictionary "don't impress me much", as Shania Twain would say.

To mthrrhbard:<BR>I agree with you 100%. Most people here spend too much time sending <<<<<<<<<HUGS>>>>>>>>>, justifying poor behavior, and enabling each other, which just feeds on the "poor me" mentality. <P>(You wrote:<BR>"At the risk of being flamed myself, I will say that there is too much commiserating going on here. Commiserating is helpful in small doses but it can also help to keep people stuck in the same old rut and victim role if not tempered with constructive ideas on how to move up and out of the misery we all share/have shared. Sometimes posts of this nature will go on for 2 pages without the benefit of contructive ideas on how to either change the situation or view it in a different light. Commiserating at great lengths also keeps the mood of the board depressed and hopeless and I think that contributes to the lack of posting by the more experienced members. I know it does for me.") <P>

Experience People (sounds better than Old Timers, doesn't it):<P>First, what I post is <I>opinion</I>, as is much of what is posted here. The difference between opinion and judgment is in the degree of expertise one can apply to the topic at hand. If what is said stems from experience in a particular arena, then that sort of "opinion" is backed by knowledge and is therefore what is termed a "considered judgment".<P>People give credence based on performance. People are free, after they post, to take what they will from the responses, weigh it and chose what to do with the information.<P>MB has grown enormously in the past two years. As it has grown, the diversity of people here has changed. And while the overwhelming majority come here seeking aid, misery also seems to draw predators. Which is a major factor in the "breaking down of civility" that you see.<P>Also, due to the population increase, the likelihood of one's words, as set to pixels, being misconstrued increases. As I said above, most are here posting honestly: but in posting, they are posting in various emotional states, and with varying degrees of linguistic skill.<P>Most who respond to posts are doing so for one of three primary reasons: (a) to share their experience with someone expressing a condition which they have, (b) to seek deeper understanding themselves, and (c) [in a small percentage] to rabble-rouse. The previous list of motivations are necessarily broad, because each persons brings unique permutations of these categories.<P>So, invariably, in the course of the human interaction posted here, it comes to pass that even with <I>discernment</I> intent in posts can be misconstrued. (Everyone give a round of applause to WAT for again hitting the nail on the head in the beginning.) In that case one trots out one's thoughts honestly and forthrightly, as I did, and the differences in interpretation can then be settled amiciably. This is called dialog.<P>OK, so much for generalities. Now some thoughts and comments specifically.<P>Kam hit on a facet that is certainly germane: access to the boards is excessively easy. Good site navigation generally follows this sort of design. In this case perhaps (and this is a <I>considered judgment</I>), navigation to the boards should be via various main topic areas within MB itself. Certainly something the Web administrators can give some thought to. Ease of nagivation weighed against the bypassing of important information for newcomers. A possibility here is the use of cookies to track progress through the site. Get enough cookies accumulated, and the general site navigation is replaced by navigation similar to what is now there. Easily enough done (Web-designer tongue in cheek <smile> ).<P>Burn out (several mention it): Yes it is hard to post day after day, to the same sorts of questions, etc. That is why in my judgment, site navigation and tracking should be looked at. If newcomers (i.e., those without cookies) are forced to navigate in certain areas <I>before</I> the ability to post is enabled, many of the common topics will have been seen <I>before</I> they post. Which would, hopefully reduce that sort of traffic on the boards, thus giving members (junior and full) more time to respond to items of specificity. Less burn out by experienced members, more direct discussion of issues, etc. A win-win situation for everyone involved.<P>It does take tremendous energy to keep posting, particularly when one wants to devote the rule of time to one's spouse. Life intrudes at every turn, the shear numbers of posts are daunting. The number of repetitive topics about MB basics make responding a chore at times. Even just <I>reading</I> all of the threads is very difficult. Honestly, I wonder where my current zeal and energy will be in two years. Combat fatigue is ever a factor. A break from the action is often required.<P>WAT: Thanks for the striped shirt and yellow hankie.<P>RC: Congratulations, you hit 33% today. One positive, two negative. Keep up on the upward trend. Remember the previously expressed axiom on engaging in a battle of wits: (a) this is not the forum and (b) you need to better arm yourself for such an engagement.<P>Commiserating: It is an axiom that misery loves company. Again, due to the medium, reading a person's current emotional state is sometimes difficult. Deciding what course to take is not always easy. Hold their hand? Give 'em the ol' "tough love"? Something in between? If someone reads a thread and feels that there is too much of any particular approach, it is beneficial--generally--to give voice to one's opinion. Remember when so doing, however, the rules of care and protection should be balanced against the rule of honesty. <smile><P>HP/DeWayne: Just to straighten out one misconception--my posts were made knowing <I>in advance</I> that HF was posting on gloryb and has been for some time. References in the current thread(s) to her posting on gloryb reflect her <I>current</I> posts.<P>I beg to differ with you on the two options. Distancing from a controversial topic because one has differing opinions should be weighed against what one can impart by responding. None of us always makes the right choice in that regard. In any response I try to bring something unique to the discussion. If it goes counter to what others are saying/thinking, so be it. That is how dialog is established. (As we have done in the past, my friend.) When in disagreement, it can (as we have done) be settled amicably and with dignity.<P>As for differentiating between leader and boss: I am well-qualified to distinguish the difference, given my military (and civilian government) background. One leads by choice and ability, one is boss by virtue of position. We are all coequals here, so there is no "boss" syndrome. I "laid down a gauntlet" to lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. An old axiom. I would <I>hope</I> that such a statement is a motivational tool to re-energize the experienced people on this site. But again, as in any post, it is <I>my</I> opinion, albeit one backed by extensive training in leadership.<P>As to responding ascerbically to posters: I only do that when I <I>perceive</I> a fundamental injustice. If <I>my</I> perception is skewed, it is the right of other posters to so state. I have a thick skin, my feelings very, very seldom get ruffled.<P>In parting, thanks for your input, it serves as a real "reality check" in examining <I>my</I> motive(s).<P>Godspeed to all,<BR>STL

I've only made it through the 1st page and feel compelled to post - regarding greeting newbies, and people's confusion to what they are suppose to do - so if this thread has taken a turn in direction, please be patient with me.<P>I was taught by my parents and school to do research, read, figure out. I find in generality that maybe it is a generation thing. (But we all remember the panic and pain we were first experiencing, and how eventually our pain began to subside.) For some reason, people like to ask a question to get the answer - they don't want to do research, read and figure out. When we give advice we don't know the background of that person, education, social, developmental, etc.<P>I enjoy going to the library to do research - on many different topics, I am working on ADD/ADHD, child education, as well as what has been going on with my marriage. I spent 2 1/2 hours on the library catalog last week on research. I have found it is much deeper than just the man/woman relationship. I am reading books written on male psychology - (this does not make me the authority on any of the subjects listed above I am just trying to figure stuff out). People give advice/2 cents here, but the problem may be much deeper with the spouse, and only a counselor may be able to figure that out - so we have to take it with a grain of salt.<P>For you other old timers (age wise) - I miss the old card catalogs - for some reason the doggone computer research can leave you high and dry, and you have to keep digging to get the answer. <P>I understand the real old times on MB have alot of history and expertise behind them. I stayed on Just Found Out, until someone advised me I should be in In Recovery. We are all part of a phenomenon - the computer, and this marriage site helping us out with our problem. <P>I can only encourage you to reach out - reach out to help other people. It amazes me how several of my good friends are being attacked on this site, I don't know at this point, but I can only [censored] u me, they might be very hurt and decide not to return. That won't be a problem for me, because they will remain my friend, as I know how to contact them. No one here should have to "fight", I am only waiting for the time where someone attacks me (I feel like my day may come too), but I hope not.<P>I just don't understand what all of a sudden is making alot of people antagonize. I only pray that it is OP's that are trying to invade and make problems.<P>That's my cents right now.<P>((((((((((((((((((( hugs )))))))))))))))))) aftershock

It digresses from the thread ... but yes <sigh> the joy of card catalogs.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

I feel such a sadness every day when I check the boards and read some of the advice and support that is given to people here.<BR>I agree with Mthrrbrd and Lori and so many others that there is so much coddling and not enough directing or gentle reminders of the goal at hand.<BR>As for why we don't lead others to post and make things here what they once were I (along with many others) have tried and been ignored or blasted for judging newbies.<BR>I often feel compelled to post but then don't because I feel I don't have anything to offer that will be taken seriously anymore by so many new people on the boards.<P>And so I will quietly bow out like many before me, peppermint, soulloss, heartpain, Lostva...just to name a few. I will miss this place but then again I already do miss MB even though I have been here daily for going on 2 years now.<BR>It just isn't the same anymore and there isn't much we can seem to do about it.<P>Much love to all<BR>and to those friends who do have my email account please write from time to time and let me know how you are all doing. <P>God Bless<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <P><p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited July 28, 2001).]

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Well, I've thought about this all day. <P>I mainly stay away from this board and stick to the D/D board since I am divorced. No, I'm not a failure, quite the contrary! I am definately a survivor!<P>BUT, I had been coming here and reading and trying to get back into the swing of posting and giving back what was given to me when I first came here. Not anymore. <P>The rudeness, cruelty and almost total lack of respect that I've seen here in the past few days really turns my stomach. In the "good ole days", we had WS that posted here and were met with open arms. If you don't believe me, do a search for posts by Inamess. She was having an affair and was trying to stop. Did she back-slide?? You bet! But we didn't verbally attack her. Instead we treated her with love and compassion. There was none of the name calling and childish non-sense! Did it help her? Yes!<P>So, I think I'll stick to my friends at D/D where the most controversial thing we discuss is dating after a divorce! (Plus we have killer parties! )<P>Mitzi

Mitzi:<P>There are many here in the GQII who could benefit from your experience because their Plan A/Plan B path or their circumstance has them on the brink of divorce.<P>While road to recovery perspectives supply hope, the fact of surviving should equally provide hope.<P>Please post frequently. Many on the brink of divorce in this forum can benefit from your insights, I believe.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hello All,<P>I have noticed something in myself lately. I have been reading here for over 2 1/2 years, and posting 2 years. What I have noticed is that I generally only post to people who ask questions. <P>Now this seems obvious, but there seems to be more posters who really only want comfort. Not a bad thing, but...<P>In fact, the ones I have posted to the most lately seem to be WS's. Why? They seem to be willing to listen and often do do their homework. Very strange don't you think??<P>As for the good old days, well we only had one site not the many choices now, so it was easier to keep up with people, read other stories and learn. However, with the volume of people coming here, the "good old way" is not really practical.<P>I do also think that people come here after hearing about this site from other people ( a good thing). However, it would seem that they have been told if they come here WE will help them. But reality is that only the knowledge found here and they themselves will help them. They are not so ready to believe that the hard work is theirs to do.<P>Just an opinion.<P>Interesting post and you are right there did seem to be more of a bond, but I suspect that had more to do with the number of people posting.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL:<P>Great insight and perspective on prep work, etc. Thanks!<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL,<P>Could RC and HF be one the same? Just popping through different engines?<P>Mitzi -<P>Please don't give up on "All of Us".<P>I know if RC and HF were here for help we would help them - they were the ones that started attacking in the middle of threads - then that stupid thread started today ... loves ..... Anyway, they've been here tearing the boards down, and going and bragging on gloryb.<P>What are their motives?

After Shock,<P>I haven't given up completely. I just think it would be wise to stay at D/D. I am divorced after all. I may still check in here once in a while. But I already have enough negative stuff in my life and don't need much more. <P>I just think the "Humblefish situation" could have been handled diffently, or at least ignored. <P>Mitzi

Oh, good freaking grief. <P>I could say so much, but instead I'll just agree with this...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mthrrhbard:<BR><B>I will say that there is too much commiserating going on here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I have been lurking here for almost two months now, reading, learning, crying and quietly empathizing. This is my second post, only because I don't feel confident enough to offer any advice. I just wanted to say that this place has saved my sanity and probably my life. I have gone from being alone and frightened to actually believing there is some hope. One of the first things I read here was a post about the cruel things WSs say while in fog. It was such a relief to know others had experienced what I had and survived. I don't know what it was like here two years ago, but I just wanted to say that *right now* it has been a great help and source of comfort and inspiration to me. Thanks, everyone.<P>

I have only been around for a few months and can say that the "regulars" saved my sanity. I lurked for a while, did my homework and then targeted my first post (with a relevant and specific title) to get the attention of knowledgeable people.<P>Most of the responses were true to MB principles. <P>I have seen lot's of posts and replies (and I think that is the point of this thread) from people who do not seem to understand (or be aware) of the MB principles. It is obvious when an MB comment is adjacent to a non-MB comment which one constitutes useful advice. <P>I am thinking of a specific case where the H was advised to "be a man" and not take cr*p from his W. A true MB poster followed that response with a good explanation of Plan A. Even though a bunch of newbies (my guess) cheered on the "be a man" reply, it was clearly obvious which was the more helpful approach. Several replies followed which supported Plan A. None of the Plan A posters attacked the "be a man" reply.<P>Comparing old MB to recent MB I think that good replies have just been diluted by lots of shoot from the hip types. <P>WE NEED MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE, NOT LESS.<P>I really have no idea how to deal with the flame wars that have appeared here recently. Every discussion forum known to man has to deal with them in some form. I mostly avoid those threads since I'm sleeping more and don't have as much time to waste - [*grin*, thanks all].<P>*slightly off thread*<P>It's nice to hear that some "ancient ones" (sorry, couldn't resist) are attracted to questions. I have several questions that I've been dying to ask but I'm worried that they'll fall right off the GQII forum without any replies. The pace here is incredible. <P>Please experienced/ancient ones don't desert us.<P>-Jeffers<BR>

I stand admonished *sigh*<P>I rarely lurk on this board anymore...I got an email in reference to this thread and checked it out...<P>I have tried many times to respond to folks here that are in the grips of the searing pain caused by infidelity...Much of it to no avail...My experience either gets ignored or just plain ignored...So I rarely reply...<P>When I see a thread titeld in way that gets my attention I read it...If I have nothing to interject then I don't...<P>I'm with JL, in that if I see a question, I see willingness to learn and change...I'm sorry but I can no longer comizerate(sp?)...I am now divorced but I know for a fact that the MB principles saved my sanity...I did all I could do and she still left...Life rolls on...<P>My life has become so full I struggle to keep up with all that goes on here...I am no longer in the self-centered help me mode...I do try to give back what was freely given to me when I can...But often times it drags me back into the pain I experienced when all this was fresh almost 2 years ago and for my own sanity I need not go there too often...<P>To the newcommer...KEEP COMMING BACK!! Ask questions, try these ideals...You ought to get results...<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Bill,<BR>Your comment about being "ignored" brings up an old recommendation that is, many times, overlooked. And, a hint to newcomers wanting more responses to their posts. When I was a newcomer here, I was always instructed to respond to EACH reply on my post. I was told that every replier to my post deserved to be acknowledged,,whether or not I agreed with the suggestion or advice. Even a simple,,"I already tried that",,or "That won't work because..." or,,"Thanks for the concern". A simple courtesy that shows the poster actually read the reply and considered the advice or suggestions. <P>

NC,<P>I was refering to my replies being ignored...In fact the same poster on 3 different threads of theirs has ignored my comments...<P>It took me some time when I first started posting to get in the groove of things...

Bill, I understand and although I perhaps didn't explain myself very well, that IS what I meant. <P>We all have busy lives and the vast majority of us here have very confused lives right now. To take the time to read a post, formulate what you consider a constructive, rational reply and to have that reply completely ignored is discouraging. I was not insinuating that YOU do this. I gathered from your post above that this is what's happening to your replies and maybe discouraging you from further replies.

Morning All,<BR>I think sometimes hugs are the best way to respond to some people! It does not necesarily mean one agrees, but that may be all one has to offer. <BR>I have to agree that if the poster acknowledged the responses, it would make a difference in keeping some of the ancients around more! <BR>BTW, I like the terma ancients!!! <BR>aloha, cl

N, WilliamJ:<P>Many, many posts go unanswered. <shrug> The key is that they at least, hopefully, <I>read</I> it and gained something from it.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Well, I don't know if I qualify as an "old timer". I have been here a little over a year.<P>I do notice a difference in the boards. I think a lot of people get referred to the site or find it on a web search and fail to read the concepts before entering the forums. Before I ever posted, I read the SAA book and most of the articles and information Dr. Harley has posted here on the home page. I believe I came prepared. I have seen numerous people ask "what is a Plan A?" or have no idea what any of ther other MB terms are. In my ever so humble opinion, this leads to responses that are more reactionary that constructive. I have been guilty of being harsh with a couple of posters in the past.<BR>There are things we can do as members to keep the forum on track. We can ignore or report especially offensive threads and posters. Remember a poster by the name of BillyJoeWilson? He inundated the forums with copies of chats with his wife, refused to listen to anyone that did not sympathize with his cause and flamed people (like happyhusband) for their own beliefs. He eventually went away because, in the end, he was ignored. His posts were wiped out because the moderators were notified of his abuse of the forum.<BR>We can refuse to jump into the fray and keep our responses directly related to MB principles. I could have taken this advice myself with the whole "Father/OM" thing recently. I was completely drawn into that.<P>Anyway, excuse the ramble. My point is we can't control everybody but we can control how we react to them. If we take the high road more people will follow.<P>ok....I need to finish getting caffeinated now.