Well, I guess that all good things must come to an end. Even though I was hit with a 2x4, it only came to me slowly that my welcome here has worn out. I've grown tired of the posters who won't listen to anything but what they want to hear. I feel sorry for them, because they will never recover their marriages until they realize that(in most cases) <I>they</I> have been an active (or passive) participant in the downfall of the marriage and production of the conditions that allowed the affair to happen. Before someone jumps my case about the above, I believe with all my heart that one <B>cannot</B> "force" an affair by your spouse or that the BS has <I>any</I> blame for the affair. However, too many of us minimize our contribution to the harm we helped cause to the union.<P>Good advice is rare anymore. "Throw the bum out" or "You shouldn't have to take that crap" are typical responses to a WS's bad behavior. Even when a replier points out self-improvements that need to be made, they are drowned out by the cacophony of voices that encourage blaming the WS or the OP. When someone comes here in pain, instead of encouraging them to pull themselves up by their "bootstraps", they are showered with meaningless platitudes that will do nothing to save their marriage. When there is good advice about getting their act together, it is swamped with disrespectful judgments about the person giving the "wise" advice and complaints about they style in which it was delivered..<P>You know, sometimes the BS needs to be whacked upside the head with the 2x4, not just the WS. But with the current "leadership" on the board, this isn't allowed unless you want to help "gang up" on those "they" select as deserving of criticism.<P>It's probably only a phase in the life of the board, but it has grown tiresome. Few people anymore even bother to read the information on the website before jumping in asking for advice and giving it right back out again. And the quality of this so-called "advice"? Might as well be reading a pulp novel. So sad...<P>Most of you don't even realize the true value of "Plan A". Did you ever read about it? I can't believe a lot of you have and even many who have don't take it to heart. Let's review: Plan A means 1) no angry outbursts; 2) no disrespectful judgments; 3) no demands; 4) thoughtfulness; and, 5) care. There have been a couple of posts recently about the "golden rule". Gee, you don't have to be religious to see that Plan A is basically an implementation of the "golden rule". Some of those same people on the board who have been posting about the GR are the very same who have attacked HumbleFish, realitycheck and others with whom they find disagreement. The hypocrisy is striking.<P>You will never do a truly "successful" Plan A until it becomes a part of your life and is applied to <I>everyone</I> you encounter, not just your spouse. How can you convince your WS that you have changed if they are the only recipients of your supposed "transformation"? Too many people here see Plan A(or even B for that matter) as methodologies for retrieving a WS, that these plans are only for that purpose. And, again, too many "know-it-alls" here perpetuate that myth. <P>If you did a successful Plan A then you are fundamentally changed for the positive, even if the marriage did not survive. If you don't believe it, then read a few posts on the D/D board. Mitzi, medic, gina and many others there were "successful" in Plan A even though they couldn't save their marriages. No marriage should be saved "at any cost". And if the BS cannot make the basic changes required by the Harley methods and Plan A/B, then they will take all that old baggage into their "recovered" marriage or their next relationship. Wanna bet on the success they have???<P>When the tone of the board infuriates long-timers like soulloss, patient love, nyneve and lostva, it really has gone too far. These four ladies are among the kindest, gentlest souls I have ever encountered and represent the finest qualities of mankind. Even my stupidity, whining and attitude during my W's affair didn't put them off. They've taken a lot from a lot of people and they never deviated from the "kindness" path or had a "discouraging" word. That is, until now.<P>It has also become easy to see that advice is judged, not on its merits, but who it comes from. A couple of posters have gotten Tempest and MBMagnolia involved in the posts from HumbleFish and others and then "touted" their responses (much chest-thumping has been heard by these posters for "solving" the problem). Let me quote from MBMagnolia's response: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ...but for now the "ignore user" feature is at our own fingertips...When we get a post like this, please resist the urge to reply...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When you go back and read the "offending" posts, you will see admonitions from me and others to do just this. However, not being part of the current "in-crowd", we were met with indifference because we wouldn't join the "bashing" bandwagon.<P>I want to address the next part to the current "honcho" on the board.<P>I first apologize because some of this falls under the heading of "disrespectful judgments". I'm going to try to indicate the effect this has had on me and the reactions it evokes rather than saying you "are" these things, but I don't know that I will be successful.<P>I sometimes wonder if the first part of your pseudonym should be "blinded by" rather than "seen". In many of your posts you give the impressions of the lacks of humility, class, understanding and thoughfulness along with the abundance of arrogance, haughtiness and attitude(especially "holier-than-thou") that one associates with ex-smokers and not truly repentant ex-WSs. I believe that you do understand the pain you caused your W, but thru your postings, it appears that the true lessons that needed to be learned have not been recognized.<P>In fact, it was from your W's postings that I was able to understand your "true" story. Not any of yours. It just feels like you acknowledge what you did, but you want to too easily dismiss it because you have "moved on". A typical WS action. You speak often of "fogese" and the "mothership" as if these are and always have been, beneath you, but you have been there, done that, have the tee-shirt and the photo album. It would do more good if your comments really reflected remorse (though not to the point of wallowing) and not the "holier-than-thou" attitude.<P>You seem to want to impress us with your intelligence and "wisdom". The trouble is that true wisdom comes from the heart, not the mouth. For an example of someone with "true wisdom", go back and read the posts/replies from "Just Learning". Here is someone of great intelligence, great wisdom and warmth, a person who thinks before speaking and can pass on the harshest of lessons without attacking or appearing petty and shallow.<P>True wisdom doesn't come from quoting a dictionary, an encyclopedia or any other reference book. It comes from intelligence, common sense, care for others and a thoughtful approach. You could learn a lot from him.<P>If I refer back to your examples of "wisdom", I find "Dork", "cranial-anal insertion", "How many snorts..", "sympathy (in the dictionary between $hit and syphillis)", "aquavit-breath", and this is from just <I>one</I> post!!<P>You obviously know the "right" thing to do as evidenced by a reply of yours: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> When differences do exist, the MB spirit dictates that the dialog be approached in a spirit comity and dignity, and for the most part everyone here responds admirably to that premise. Everyone has lapses. Sometimes a good virtual smack on the head brings 'em 'round.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You would do well to follow your own advice.<P>I'm sure that I will be attacked, have my intelligence questioned, receive some kind of "witty" response or somesuch nonsense for writing this. However, from offline communications, I know that I'm not the only one who feels this way. There are seasoned, reasoned old veterans of this board who feel, in general, the way that I do and I respect their opinions and know that I'm not totally off-base here.<P>With that, I do not say "goodbye", but "until we meet again". I will occasionally lurk and maybe post when I see a situation that I might be able to help, but the bulk of my MB communication will be via e-mail. As I stated in an e-mail to a MB friend today, "I've finally realized that 1) it's not going to change anytime soon; 2) it's certainly not helping me on the recovery path; and, 3) if no one wants to listen to me, I can't help anyone". So with that said, I bid you all a temporary "good-bye" and wish you all the best in recovering your marriages and the best parts of yourselves.<P>If anyone ever feels the need to contact me, you can find my email address in the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000555.html" TARGET=_blank>Roll call index</A> in the "Just Found Out" forum.<P><BR>--DeWayne--<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited July 30, 2001).]

DeWayne:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I want to address the next part to the current "honcho" on the board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, I'm not a "honcho" anymore??? <P>God bless---take a good break, and come back refreshed. Perhaps the tone will change again, for the better.<P> <BR>

HP,<BR>I'm not familiar with your posts. sorry - I just don't recall seeing you much. I would like to go and look up some - sounds like you have a lot of wisdom, love, and experience. <P>I think I understand what you are trying to say. I'm fairly new - been posting about 2 months. I hope that you can see there are many of us here that try to keep the integrity of the board. I refer new folks to the principles, and to reading a lot before expecting the forum to solve their problems for them. I also try to comfort them when they are in pain, for some people need more of a velvet glove than a 2x4. I am also new to forums in general - never been a part of one before, so I don't know the up and down cycles that I'm sure they go through. <P>I felt the Humblefish posts got out of control, but also, that it took place on a weekend, when it is slow here, and figured it turned into a game, and that noone was really getting hurt. Humblefish seems tough enough to take it - she started it, and others here can simply ignore that stuff if they want.<P>SHould we ban cell phone usage in cars? SHould we ban all smoking indoors? Rules and laws take away freedom. THis board provides lots of freedom of speech, and allows a unique setting for support and encouragement and presentation of different and varying ideas. We all know that we have the freedom to ignore certain ideas - just like we can turn the pages of the newspaper or the channels on the TV.<P>I would hope that any new people reading your post, will not assume automatically that everything has gone to he!! in a handbasket on this forum and decide to go elsewhere - nowhere??? where else is there to go??? And I hope that you will continue to read and post here, and share your wisdom and advice wherever you can.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Heartpain, your post brought me to tears, and made me think very hard about something. First, I needed to say i did the golden rule thread, because I felt an overwhelming sense of BULLYING going on in here. I did not reach the forums until I had read the books, and had a very good foot into the recovery door. I have always tried to reply with compassion and courtesy. Which I know I have. I have never slammed anyone, I did tell Realitycheck, that that onepost was uncalled for, and I did thread to the moderators about letting that go on in the room. I also know that your words, as wonderful and real as they are, were not directed towards me. Now what your post has made me wonder is this:<BR> When is it time to say goodbye to the help and leave the nest?? I know my spouse and I are into a great recovery, I have not a lot of knowledge in common with most in here, It seems overwhelming the amount of pain in here too. So When do you make the decision to bow out and get back into real life without a net??<BR> I support your thread 100% and found it very well thought out and written. I hope your life is full and your dreams come true.

DeWayne - I fess up to being guilty of some of the things you describe.<P>I will do better.<P>Dave (WAT)

Heartpain, I would be considered a new comer, I have been on MB since the beginning of May. I applaud your efforts! And I truly hope you will return. Nyneve herself has expressed these thoughts and she was and maybe still is thinking of your venture also. I do not know your story and have not read many of your posts. But I have read many of Nyneve's and some of the others you have mentioned and I do hope the board can return to some of its former status.<P><BR>For those of you who don't understand this former status, a good place to read and get many answers is in the read only posts. I have spent many hours reading in that fourm.<P>BTW I love your plan A in a nutshell and may post it when needed.

Heartpain,<P>I would like to thank you, as well. Sometimes a dose of *reality therapy* is very justified. I am not sure that any of us intentionally set out to hurt anyone, but the end result is what matters. I, too, have been guilty of some of the things you mention, and will improve myself too. Thanks... <P>Trueheart

DeWayne, I’m with you 100%<P>While no one has ever complained that I was too compassionate , I prefer the straight-out, shoot from the hip style anyway. I may have lost a few people with that style, but I’d like to think that being honest and straightforward has helped more people than I have alienated.<P>I’ve been trying to find a way to leave MB for nearly a year now; to cut the final tie to the aspect of my life of which I am least proud, but have learned the most. I don’t honestly think I can put things 100% behind me UNTIL I leave. Leave the Forums, of course... I’ll never allow myself to forget the pain I caused my W and myself. But rather to leave that pain here, so that I can focus on the knowledge gained due to the journey through that pain. To focus more on applying the principles to my life.<P>But there have been a few stories I just had to keep up with. I was doing so well, only keeping up with Chris, until WAT, AGoodGuy and Rick37 sucked me into more. A few others here and there, but I hadn’t kept up with any more in any detail. Nothing against anyone personally; I know each of us has the most important story on the board... but I just can’t get emotionally caught up in <I>everyone’s</I> life. Occasionally though, I would post to some of the threads you spoke of, where I would see droves of coddling and downright bad advice. Bad in the sense of saving marriages, of course... even if such advice would have made the recipient “feel good” at the time.<P>I am not full enough of myself to think I am some Supreme MarriageBuilders Guru (that’s K’s job <BR>), but lately I have been loathe to leave the fragile souls here in some of the hands you alluded to, DeWayne. I think they can do a lot of damage to people who are already in a very unstable place. But it’s time for me to admit that it’s really not my place to try to help save the world, or even attempt to help with a few marriages. I have enough work to do with my own... as do we all. <P>The timing on this is right... I was planning on fading away after my W and I go on a cruise for our 10th Anniversary in a few weeks. I’ve never been a big one for “goodbye” posts on any board I’ve ever frequented, and I won’t make one now. Who knows how I’ll feel at a later time? I felt having a week away from the boards would make it easier to never come back, but maybe 3 weeks before that will help even more. The board has gone through ups and downs before, but I’ve never had the taste in my mouth I do now. To the 4 gentlemen listed above, please keep me updated via email. If there’s ever anything I can do to help, from advice to a mere encouraging word, know I’ll be there.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Hi Heartpain, I can understand where you are coming from. <P>I have received great support and advice here over the past 3 months and just put my no contact letter in the mail. Very big step for me.<P>Would have never done it, nor known the importance of it if I hadn't found some friends on this board.<P>I hope you will come back!<P>------------------<BR><B>Formerly Struggling27</B><BR>E-mail:struggling27@hotmail.com

<B>I've grown tired of the posters who won't listen to anything but what they want to hear. I feel sorry for them </B><P><B>Good advice is rare anymore. </B><P><B>And the quality of this so-called "advice"? Might as well be reading a pulp novel. So sad...</B><P><B>but lately I have been loathe to leave the fragile souls here in some of the hands you alluded to </B><P>I guess I'm a little confused... I just don't recall seeing posts from you folks. Heartpain and Whodat. I haven' done any research to look for you, but I know you haven't been around much recently or I would remember. Perhaps it is like you said, and you've been around so long, that you feel you have given all the advice you can, and can't come on to help everyone. That's fine. It's fine to reach your limit - which we all will, But don't put down the others - at least they are here for the new ones coming in and reach out a hand to try to help. If you don't like the advice they (we) give, why don't you speak up and make some replies? I've seen K around - he and I came to an understanding when I questioned him on his straightforwardness - he explained it to me and I got it and appreciated it very much. Thanks K! But the new folks don't know how or want to take the time - or HAVE the time to filter through all the old stuff to see who was once wise and who wasn't. I love this board, and I appreciate everyone who makes attempts at helping their brothers and sisters, even if the advice isn't textbook or the greatest. <P>please understand - I'm not fussing. Just trying to understand, and express my honest point of view. I haven't seen you guys around much, so how can you put down the ones that are at least trying to do some good? <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

HP & W<P>Ya'll will be missed. Come back & check thing out in while, hopefully things will be better.<P>Thanks for all that you have given back here. I hope you are listened to here today.<P>In the time that I have been only here to check in on those I care about, I have learned not to read topics by some people & that if they start posting on a thread I try& skip their posts.<P>I wish I had ya'lls wisdom & the your recovry but even though my marriage didn't surivie I did, & I am better for it. Now to teach my boys how not to screw up like their parents did.<P><BR>Again thanks for all of your input. May your recovery grow, your happiness have no end, & you live in peace.

Faith1 (and "newbies")<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>why don't you speak up and make some replies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because eventually, you burn yourself out. DeWayne is suffering from that. WhoDat is an old MB collegue of mine from 1998-99 timeframe; we used to have lively debates with our old friend "D99". My story is older than the forums themselves---I was in counseling with Steve Harley in 1997, and really didn't come here until I was well into "recovery". I take sabbaticals every now and then, but I've consistantly posted here for nearly three years now.<P>We try to encourage the posts to remain focused on the task of building marriages. I'm a "by the book" MBer, mainly because I spend a gazillion dollars with Steve on learning the techniques. There are lots of other marriage tools out there (I noticed that you referred to Dobson in a previous post)---we like to encourage and use "all" of the supportive techniques we can get our hands on. Well thought out advice is always welcome. But occasionally we'll see a rash of posts in which the poster is trying to be "supportive", but in doing so is encouraging behavior contrary to the goal of restoring a marriage. It's hard to "correct" this well-intentioned but sometimes harmful advice---and hey, who appointed me as MB-guru (well, WhoDat did)---but there are times that the "old-timers" will wade in here and try to get some of the newer folks up-to-speed (so that we can hopefully retire )<P>In terms of "trolls" attacking these boards, the MB boards only have the appearance of a "public" forum. There are user guidelines for posting, and users who abuse the priviledge of posting here will eventually be banned. We had lots of problems over in the Pregnancy forum a couple months back, and it seems that we're going though another round over here. E-mailing the board moderators or the admin (Steve Harley) is what you should do if you can't simply ignore them. I hate to see well-intentioned folks "dumbing down" to fight them, however. And that's one issue that DeWayne brought up.<P>Anyway, Faith---there's a bit of background. And hey, I think you've been doing an excellent job on advice-giving. I've got my MB-cloak freshly pressed and waiting to ship to you!

Gosh, Brother, I'll bet you feel better! You guys have left even me with not much to say....Ok, I lie, but not much to say, yet! <P>I have to admit, I've had my share of frustrations here as of late. And the current interpretation of Plan A is one of the major ones. It does NOT mean doormat, or sucking up, or any other such thing and, when you finally "get it" changes your life for the better forever, dramatically INCREASES your self-respect, and makes it so much easier to take action to save your marriage rather than react to WS waffling behavior.<P>So, for now, I'll leave this thread in the capable hands of my peers, who seem to be doing a terrific job. Good to see all of you, btw.<P>love,<P>Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith1:<BR><B>[b]<P>I love this board, and I appreciate everyone who makes attempts at helping their brothers and sisters, even if the advice isn't textbook or the greatest. <P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>a problem is that when some of the advice is not the greatest, but it is the advice followed, a marriage, lives, children, hopes and dreams of a family are compromised....<P>this is not a situation where one can easily shrug and say "oh well..guess I was wrong...opps...how about this..."<P>the ripple effects of 'off-the-cuff' remarks and advice can have disasterous effects on a marriage.....<P><BR>also, the serach function here is abit...umm...strange...it will only display 200 matches, and I have found quite often even in searches for my own stuff, that only my 1999 contributions are listed...or a few into 2000...<P>I get better results with a search using keywords...but since I am the person who wrote them, I would know which specific ones to use...to make a long story short...lol...<P>a search can often produce a result that makes it look like we haven't posted in a long while....<P>don't know how to help with that though...<P>good thoughts...<P>Dylan<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

DeWayne......<P>I could have run in here, guns blazing, cites and quotes at the ready....but my friend...you have, with your eloquence, caring and class, have said much of it...and oh so much more calmly and rationally than I would have.....<P>I haven't much time right now....but I will return this evening to address this...<P>my friend....all the best to you...<P>Dylan

DeWayne,<P>You will be missed. I do agree with you. But there are many here that do read and do offer very good advice. It just seems that with the larger number of posters there is a tendency to give a hurried response rather than a well considered response. I am as guilty as the next I am afraid.<P>I do hope you return, but I do know how you feel. I am feeling abit like you do as well. It may be time for a sabbatical for me as well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

K, thank you for your thoughtful reply. <P>I guess I really understand the fact that some folks that have been around for a while just get a little burned out. I'm sure I will too. Like I said, I'm new to forums and such. The reason I'm sharing my view is that I would LOVE for veterans to hang around as long as possible and give us a good shot in the arm from time to time. I would LOVE for all the folks - especially the ones who are in recovery, but even the ones who are not - lead us through this minefield in any way they feel their strength and love can allow. They have walked through the minefield, lost a few limbs, and seen others make it, lose limbs, turn back, or even suffer an MB death. If they quit posting to the newbies, and toddlers (such as myself), the torch doesn't pass along in the best way. So by the time the torch passes down a few generations, the information is garbled and the priciples become faded... which appears to be where we are now... sort of like the gossip game where you whisper something and pass it around and by the time it gets to the end of the line, it's changed completely! This is fine, if you are ready to move on with life - you can't help everyone across the minefield. <P>So, as I tried to say in my first reply above, I appreciate Heartpain's wake up call to some of us - to grow up, and to remember the MB principles that founded this board. But also in an attempt to defend of some of the folks that try to help, and then also in welcoming and encouraging HP and the other veterans - um, er, "Practicing MB'ers" - to come back and post whenever they have the energy, strength, and love to share.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Well said HeartPain. <P>Once again I am in your debt for holding a mirror in front of me as you have in the past.<P>Thank You.

...well...<P>sigh.<P>I agree.<P>While gone last week, I didn't get to be on much... looked for a few whom I know and check up on, but stayed away from newbies since I had my welcome letter on the 'puter at home and didn't have time to go find all the links to create another one.<P>Know what? It felt good to just check in, say hi to a few, and get off the darned computer.<P>I am an oldie, been here since Aug 99, and MB saved my life -- not my marriage, but my life. <P>I use the concepts in my present marriage, and God willing, it will last the rest of my life.<P>DeWayne, soulloss, Lostva, JL, K, WhoDat... old friends... here for years... I have learned so much from each of you, and sing, SuzzieQ... new friends... who continue to teach me.<P>Thank you... and for once I won't write a goodbye message, because if I went and collected all the times I said goodbye and came back, well... it would be embarrassing <P>Love to all<P>Sheryl<P>**maybe time for a real "new_beginning" ~ I think I finally fit into the name**<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>...well...<P>sigh.<P>I agree.<P>DeWayne, soulloss, Lostva, JL, K, WhoDat... old friends... here for years... I have learned so much from each of you, and sing, SuzzieQ... new friends... who continue to teach me.<P>Thank you... and for once I won't write a goodbye message, because if I went and collected all the times I said goodbye and came back, well... it would be embarrassing <P>Love to all<P>Sheryl<P>**maybe time for a real "new_beginning" ~ I think I finally fit into the name**<P>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 30, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't you dare leave here well, at least without not giving me your email. You help me get through to many long lonely nights in Sing,

Hello to everyone,<P>This makes me feel really, really bad. I never came to MB to have this happen. I ignored HF/RC for the most part. He/She finally got under my skin, and attacked wrongly. My heart says not to do this, and sometimes frustration gets the better of you. I, too, am learning the MB principles. At least I read the material on this site, before I came into the forums. I had a different basis tho, I suffered for 10 months, with some angry outbursts at my H because of his EA. But I was living with intense pain and anguish because of his amorous attention to someone else during our marriage other than me that I had found out about. And I had lived with divorce and other PA's with a different person. It was very wrong of me to strike out against HF/RC, but I became upset to anyone attacking anyone on MB boards. I only came to MB for help and support, and to give support. I am only in an infancy at this time, but I do not wish to be label in some derogatory fashion. Were it not for Dr. Harley, and this forum, I would have never learned HNHN, Marital Recovery Agreement (we are under now), POJA, and how to Plan A. And my H would not have either. I was living so much pain last summer (June-September), and even after that. I felt like I was going to go crazy with my anguish, and I know I was clinically depressed - although, I did not go the depression drug route. I tried to talk to clergy only to be cast aside - Does anybody care? We started counseling in October, but the traditional counseling was not really helping (or atleast our counselor was not). I went through months, feeling the dispair that no one could care, my H's emotional indifference, that the Lord did not care, and my demolished self-esteem. Finally reading Dobson, finding Minirth/Meyers and Gottman, accidently opened the door to MB and Dr. Harley. My self-esteem is still fragile, but I have tried to welcome newbies, only to see the same things you have documented above - I will not dispute that. I definately see not enough help for people posting, especially when someone posts, and they only get 3-4 posts back. I see posts ignored, so I will try to give that person support. It is very hard to continue to give, give support; yet not to receive support. All I ask is for forgiveness. I don't need to cry inside for the reason that I don't feel of any value here; because I cry inside for the turmoil and anguish that my marriage and H has bestowed upon us. And yes, I acknowledge that I am at fault - I always have. Take it for what it is worth, I need help from you old timers. Sometimes I just feel that I am not getting value here, and I am not giving value. aftershock

Hey DeWayne!<P><B>THANK YOU!!</B>.....<P>for giving me so much support when I thought I needed to plan A my ex! Little did I know, that I wasn't doing it for my marriage but for me! <P>And if you ever feel like saying HI, you can find my email in the Roll Call! Or you can just join us on the Mega-Thread! <P>Love ya,<BR>Mitzi <P>

Dewayne,<P>I'm with you here.<P>It's just getting too hard.<P>Plan A isn't about how you deal with your WS people!!!!<BR>It's about how you acr and react to EVERYONE you encounter!!!<P>Not that anybody will pay attention to that statement.<P>I'm being a bit harsh but most people who have read your post HAVE MISSED THE POINT ENTIRELY!!!!!!!<P>The advice that is being given on the boards by the more "regular" posters at this point is NOT GOOD ADVICE!!<BR>And when we the "old timers" try and chime in with our advice and experience we are ignored or told we really don't understand the situation at hand.<P>It's been said over and over and over again but they just don't get it!<P>I'm sorry for running off.<BR>I'm sorry for being harsh and rude...<BR>but I'm just too tired<BR>and it has nothing to do with MB burnout...<BR>I'm tired of the current state of the boards and don't know how to deal with it.<P>luv ya DeWayne<P>keep in touch you have my addy!

What the heck is happening to MB? I came in on my knees and have slowly risen above that status, then suddenly, <B>WHAM</B>, I get slammed back to my crawling position because no here seems worthy enough to help me to forge my marriage using MB concepts and techniques? When I post, which is not as often as I'd like or should, I appreciate everyone who responses to my post(s). Whether or not I take their advise into consideration depends on my particular situation and comfort. Old-timers.......don't let newbies, like myself, down by going off into cyberspace. I'm here to get all the information that I can and utilize what I think will work best for me. I'm in the toddler stage of recovery within my marriage and I still need a lot of up-bringing.<P>Unfortunately, my financial status does not allow me to afford one on one counseling sessions with the Harleys. Yet, I'm a quick learner and would appreciate a few lessons from people who have used these concepts to success. The MB plans are easy to understand yet difficult to implement and continue. These things take considerable time to perfect. Unfortunately, those in pain, especially upon learning of an A, hope to fix things right away and make the pain go away. Impatience is the burden that a BS carries with them, seemingly forever. Patience is a virtue. And I wish to thank those who show this virtuous quality time and again on these forums. Perhaps this is something that should be practiced with more concerted efforts by all members. Oh, and I can't forget <B>respect</B>. That is right up there with patience.<P>Do <B>NOT</B> let this forum turn into a popularity contest. That would do everyone who has every posted here a great disservice. <P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B><P><p>[This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited July 30, 2001).]

I haven' been here very long but have read well over 75 different post some have even come close to the problems I have. But one thing is for sure I have learned a great deal about relationships and ways to try understanding my own problem. I have only posted in here once and only got one reply but there is so much good information in here that it helped me. I won't say my problem is gone but it is far less an issue now then it was and it has made things better. My partner and I talk about it and undestand each other better where as before it was an arguement. So in short this is by far my favorite site for finding information pretaining to my problems.

DeWayne,<P>A most excellent post. The issues that we deal with here are emotionally charged, (red-lining in most cases) and one thing I've always remarked upon was how <I>good</I> everyone was to each other. The golden rule was followed and honoured, and no-one ever really needed to waste all that much time <I>talking</I> about it.<P>Even when we all ganged up on Arik (with those 2x4s), we did so as friends... with love. Sure, there was the odd troll, but that's the internet for ya, and we dealt with it without pulling half the board into a mudslinging fest. <P>Indeed, things on this board have changed. Not for the better. When I first came here, my marriage, hell <I>my entire existance</I> was so deep in the gutter that I can barely find the words to express the desolation of my soul at that point in my life. What I found here were a group of people who took me into their collective arms regardless; and by sharing with me and allowing me to share with them, they helped me find the strength to start rebuilding myself. <P>Also, my wife, whom I had betrayed in the vilest fashion, found stregnth here, and fellowship, encouragement, escape (when needed) and valuable insight into my behaviour and state of mind. Though she denies it, she enacted the <I>perfect</I> <B>plan A</B>. Under the guidance of, well, everyone, she handled herself (and me) perfectly. It was kind of freaky at the time (I was making preps for my impending homelessness) but as I became more secure it allowed me to face my own shame rather than guilt loaded on in the form of harsh judgements (of which I was most deserving). <P>I'm blabbing on, I know. What I'm trying to do is offer up a testimonial to the way 'things used to be'. Yeah, I know, 'things change', 'get with the times', yadayada. The bottom line; if D-day had been last week, instead of 2yrs ago, and we happened upon this site... we'd be headed <I>down</I>. <P>That's not to say that there isn't value on the boards anymore... on the contrary, indeed there is. But as stated in the op, you gotta dig for it. As an excavationist, I can attest to the fact that if you're digging for something, it helps to know what you are digging for and where to dig. I dunno 'bout anyone else here, but when I first showed up here, it was like marriage 911 - no time for digging and certainly no state of mind capable of discerning through piles of empty platitudes.<P>I'll let others get with the times. Good advice and cohesive caring from those at MB played a crucial roll in starting the process that saved my marriage. The concepts and ideas will continue to help in the rebuilding. It would be very sad if the boards and the friendships forged here could not play a part in that adventure. (worse comes to worse, my email is dawg__lover@hotmail.com - note the double underscore)<P>One more time: Good advice and a cohesive group focused on loving principles saved my marriage, and arguably my very soul. Bad advice, insults, platitudes and so much bickering would probably have resulted in my children going to bed without a tuck-in from their dad, and the woman of my dreams forever hating my guts.<P>I hope you are right; that it is a 'phase'. I'll say a few prayers that those active on this board take a moment to reflect on the virtues of love, patience and empathy before their replying to the next post. Most do already, I'm praying specifically that <I>everyone</I> does.

see DeWayne....you as always, are right..he's a keeper...the above is one of a multiude of reasons I am still with this man....<P>He was so proud the day he changed his username from Soulloss'ExH to Deut....<P>as for you..well..I know where to find you!!...lets hope K is right..it's a phase and we can come in from the front yard....<P>there is one topic I will address...<P>I am an MB Old-timer.<BR>It is a mantle I wear proudly.<BR>I've earned it.<BR>As have they all who adopts the term.<BR>We have adopted it from those before us.<BR>I like it.<BR>I mean NO superiority when I use it...<P>why on earth would any be construed...and why so consistently..???<P>I'm an MB Old-timer.<P>it took me 22 months of tears, laughter, pain, joy, sharing, and loving this place and it's people for me to be an 'Old-timer'....<P>I'm proud of it...<P>again, it does denote we are superior in any way...it simply denotes that we have been here a long time...<P><BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{DeWayne & Susan}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>as for the 'Honcho'...well, there as you know, DeWayne, I have some serious 'issues'.....but my friend, this eloquent,thoughtful and sad thread is no longer the place nor the time..<P><BR><I>as for those who were waiting for a 'dylanesque' post....I apologize...but to paraphase:<P>"I don't want to go into combat with an unarmed opponent..."</I><P>and remember...only YOU know when you are ready for what<BR>and what you are ready for when.<P>my suggestion.....'newbies' ...first go to the 'just found out' board...then go to the 'Plan A and Plan B' board....familiarize yourself....read everything..devour it all......then, perhaps a foray into GQ....<P>feel free to e-mail:<BR>sacred_rain@yahoo.com<P>much love to all...will be lighting my MB candles..<P>again....much love.....<P>Dylan<P>Hi Sheryl!<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

DeWayne,<P>As you know, I am another oldtimer. Like WhoDat, I only have so much time, and follow just a few people - some old and some new.<P>I usually ignore the posts I don't like. Like many others on this thread have posted, there is still alot of good happening here. <P>Enjoy your time away. I hope you do come back. I have been here since 1999, and still feel I have alot more to learn. You have helped me tremendously over the years. Your ability to win your W back has been an inspiration to me! <P>Wishing you life's very, very best!!!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

HP. How to say this without you being able to hear the tone of my voice, which is soft and reflective . I almost skipped this thread as I do the ones you referred to in your post. Reason? Because it wasn't relevant to my recovery, but I thought of when I first came here in Dec. When WAT replied to my first post. He gently and compassionately told me I was in denial and to consider my H's EA as an affair. He recommended the reading material and I read....everything. (WAT...respectful thanks)<P>Then when I thought things were over, Oswald responded to my very long and emotional post without judgement, just wise and thoughtful and objective observations. (Oswald, if you are still out there...respectful thanks)<P>And although Just Learning has never actually responded to one of my posts...I read and still read everything he posts with an open mind. (JL, respectful thanks)<P>I did receive some bitter responses at times, I chose to ignore them...they weren't relevant to my recovery. I just wanted you to know there are some of us that rarely post or respond to posts that have reaped great benefits from MB veterans. The junior members need them the most IMO. I wish I had your wisdom and experience to feel confident in responding to their posts. I remember how much pain I felt.<P>HP...respectful thanks to you for sticking around as long as you have. Know in your heart that you have been a source of information and comfort for many of us that did not know where to go when our lives were falling apart.<P>And many thanks to all MB veterans. I think you've figured out..... I have great respect for all of you.

I checked back quickly and when I saw the volume of replies, I felt I had better acknowledge them.....<P><B>k - </B> In my book, you are surely a true "honcho". It's different to have the designation bestowed rather than claim it for yourself!! <P><B>Faith1 - </B> Forgive me, too, but you only registered on 7/1/01...I registered 7/12/99...I hope that you, too, will find that you spend less time here as the months roll on. I lived on this board for almost a year. It saved my sanity, gave me new friends and the tools to save my marriage, but it also dramatically affected my work to the negative. You are definitely one of the "good ones" as far as trying to keep the board grounded, but recently it seems to be a losing battle. I would suggest, if you have time, to go to the "read-only" forum and peruse the posts in 98/99 and 2000. It would give you a feel for what I(and others) have been talking about.<P>I disagree with you on the Humblefish posts. The woman is definitely confused and crying out for help. She only attacked and tried to justify her actions when she was assailed here. This is not a game, life is not a game.<P>(cell phones in cars) -- yes, or at least increase the penalties dramatically for accidents where one of the people was using a cell phone at the time. (smoking indoors) - Depends...I'm a smoker, but I don't like to bother other people..Boulder, CO doesn't allow you to smoke in *any* public area, indoors or out....We have the freedom to "ignore certain ideas", but not to viciously attack another.<P>The forum has not gone to "he!! in a handbasket". It has just taken a (temporarily, I hope) ugly turn.<P><B>alexy - </B>Thank you for the encouraging thoughts. To answer your question about when is it time to "leave the nest", I don't know. Just like everything else, it's up to the individual. When you find that you no longer benefit and you either have no advice for others or they don't listen, that's a good sign. Health and happiness to you, my friend.<P><B>Dave(WAT) - </B> You certainly have nothing to apologize for. I have never seen anything but kindness and caring from you. You conduct yourself with a dignity and sense of humor that we could all benefit from emulating. Things certainly aren't going your way right now, but you will be fine no matter what happens, because of the person you are inside...<P><B>SuzzieQ -</B>The current state of the board has been a shared concern by many of us who have been here a while. We have discussed it here and offline as well. Nyneve probably does a better job of expressing this than I. My "plan A in a nutshell" has been in some of my past postings. I really do believe that you have to make it a lifestyle.<P><B>trueheart - </B>We have all been gulity to some degree on occasion. Most of my transgressions occur when defending another. I do get carried away...<P><B>WhoDat - </B>Well, my friend, you have alienated people at times...The good ones get over it because they know where you are coming from. I certainly like the "up-front, in-your-face" approach as opposed to the "mollycoddling" I see at times. Sometimes you have to start with "mollycoddling" to get attention then proceed to "in-your-face" when they aren't listening. Those "hands" I "alluded to", in some cases are truly dangerous to some of the more "fragile" souls you refer to. There is a quiet groundswell building to correct this thru the moderators. Time will tell if it has an effect.<P>I guess the title of "Supreme MarriageBuilders Guru" should probably be reserved for Dr. H, Steve and Jennifer, but you, k and JL are definitely way up there....I agree with your "goodbye" sentiments, and Lord knows, I've teased Nyneve enough about her "goodbyes". That's why I'm not saying "goodbye" but "later...". Best of life to you...BTW, you have always had the best "tagline" of all...<P><B>struggle_free! - </B>Thanks...<P><B>Faith1 - </B> Here again, I see... Again, I suggest that you do the research...spend some time in the "read-only" posts to see where many of us came from. You are right, advice doesn't have to be "textbook or the greatest", but it does have to be safe and caring I am not "putting down" anyone trying to do some good, only the ones doing harm.<P><B>sing - </B> My dear, you have more wisdom than you care to admit. One aspect of that is skipping posts...The fact that your marriage didn't survive doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I consider you a winner and a success story. You have been through a lot and learned a lot and are a better person for it. That's what counts, too bad you H can't see it....<P><B>K - </B>How I do remember "d99"!! I guess I have to "second" WhoDat's nomination of you as "guru", but he is as well. For the most part you are right, there are many who "dumb down" to respond to posts, but there are some here who don't have to "dumb down", they are already there. The problem is that they maintain a facade that is quite different and the mask comes off when they respond to such posts.<P>Hey!!! You guys have cloaks??? Cool!!! <P><BR>--DeWayne--

Had to break this one reply into three...kept timing out when I tried to post the entire thing.......<P><BR><B>Hi Sis!!!! </B> You are right about the Plan A interpretation being wrong and I have seen many posts where repliers have indicated Plan A is being a doormat. Or at least that Plan A is OK until the WS does something that is not right. Plan A is Plan A is Plan A. Nothing the WS does changes that. In support of that, both Dr. Phil and Gary Zukav say that it's not what people do to you that's important, it's how you react to that treatment. They are so right....You and Robert(and Kristin) enjoy your vacation.... <P><BR><B>Dylan - </B> I know that when something get you, Nyneve and Lori as riled up as this, that I am not in the wrong for how I feel. I cannot elaborate or improve on what you said. You are truly wise and compassionate....I've often thought to go back to some of my old posts and create a new posting as an "index"...Not sure if anyone would care or read 'cause it doesn't give them immediate gratification, and besides, I've been more lucky with this than skilled. I would really only want people to read the advice you and others gave me, anyway....<P><BR>I disagree with your second reply. This message probably would have been more effective with you as the presenter. Love you guys...<P><BR><B>JL - </B> I guess that it is predictable, but the only "mea culpas" I am reading here are from those who are the antithesis of the profile I am trying to highlight. You have a patience and gentle wisdom that, I think, is unparalleled here. Don't change a thing. You have been the only one that could get the Student to open up and start to change. That qualifies as a "miracle" in my book. I will be back, maybe in 2-3 weeks or 2-3 months. This thing is like a narcotic, it keeps you coming back for more!! <P><BR><B>Faith1 - </B>Again!! Your reply third reply needs no comment. You pretty much nailed it!!<P><BR><B>Hi Infidelity - </B> You are another to take this the wrong way...That mirror you are looking into must be clear glass because it cannot be showing your reflection...Modesty abounds in many cases here...Thank you!! <P><BR><B>Nyneve - [b]Bet you get pretty tired of seeing your pet peeve show up so often!!! Thanks for being here. Thanks for all of the love, caring and help you gave me when I needed it. You have helped so many we should probably re-name you: Nyneve Nightengale... "Platonic hugs" to you and R...(can't be a newbie to know about those platonic hugs we share!!!!)<P><BR>[b]after shock - </B>I didn't even have you in mind when I wrote the original post, and, yes, I have seen many of your posts. You are an asset to the forums...Being able to acknowledge faults as well as where you shine makes you a "real" person. That's what people need to see, that we are all just human with the attendant positives and foibles...<P><BR><B>Mitzi - </B>How is it I always seem to "drag" you back to GQII?? I was only more than glad to help you after the help and support you gave me when I needed it. Remember how ready I was at times to "throw in the towel"(actual post subject by me)?? You and others always pulled me back and kept me to the task at hand and I will be forever grateful. Without that support, I would be divorced now, not having been patient enough to wait until W was ready....Luv ya back...<P><BR>P.S. I already have one reply on the Mega-Thread, is it safe to go back??? LOL <P><BR>--DeWayne--<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited August 01, 2001).]

<B>Nicole - </B>With what's happening here and also to you personally, don't apologize, I understand. Besides, when you and Dylan are extremely perturbed it's most like how the rest of us are seen after we get a splinter. You two are such kind souls that I don't think I will ever see you as angry as I can get....Yup, I've got your addy and you, mine...Luv you, too...Hug those kids for me!!<P><B>GeezLouise - </B>I really don't understand your first two or three sentences. As for the second paragraph, I agree with you. As for the third, that's what we are trying to do here. It isn't turning <I>into</I> a "popularity contest", it already is one. Certain posters are giving horrible advice, but doing enough back-slapping and palm-greasing to give themselves credibility. Even taking to attacking "old-timers". Even "old-timers" who are wise beyond their years and wouldn't harm a fly. This is what we want to stop. This is the disservice that is being done here.<P><B>S_J4V_R - </B>I'm glad you find information here that is helpful, but the fact that you and your partner *can* talk about these things is a huge positive. It sounds like you have all the basics, but just need some help with the "fine-tuning" and these forums can help you with that. Good luck!!<P><B>Desiree - </B>Thanks so much for the complement, but there is no way I could have been any inspiration to you had you not been one of those to give me a push, nudge or smack with a 2x4 when I needed it. You are a charter member of the club that I owe my life to...Love to you...<P><B>deut - </B>Thanks so much for your reply!!!! It shows that, even though you have made some mistakes, you are a very "high-quality" person inside, as is Dylan. You really have dug down deep in yourself to find answers and direction. You are to be greatly lauded for that. You are a truly fine man and as I said to Dylan in an e-mail, you both have "keepers"...You both have the humility necessary to admit faults and correct them. You are succeeding and will continue to because of this...<P><B>vernon3 - </B>You have every right to skip any post you wish, including this one. We have all had more than enough to deal with and "off-topic"(at least personally) threads may be just too much...I know, I have done the same thing. Yup, Oswald is a good one!! And that JL, he's just one-of-a-kind!! Avoiding the "bitter" responses and unpleasant posts is a sign of maturity, focus and resolve that will stand you in good stead in all the other things in life. Wish I had your "focus", my mind is usually a cacophony of thoughts, bits of songs, etc...I just can't concentrate for very long. LOL <P><B>Everyone - </B> I want to thank you all for your thoughtful and sincere responses. Even when not here, I will think about all of you often...and, I most probably *will* be back at some point. I kinda like the idea of "in for a while" then "gone for a while"...I sure hope that the forums "self-organize" back to serving their original purposes...Love to all of you...<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne:<P>Since you preface your post with the statement that you are basing it on the reaction it evoked, there is no need for the apology. One does not need to apologize for what one feels, just how one reacts. The fact that you distinguish between disrespectful judgments and what you feel is adequate.<P><B>Honcho</B>? That has been foisted upon me. I do not know why you (and/or others) would pin that on any person on this board. I have never claimed nor desired such a position. In fact, in my postings to you and others, I have used phrases in reponse such as "coequals" and "as one ant to another". The role here should always be one of mutually providing insights to those seeking help. In fact, the forum is a self-help one: for in responding, one must relate their current and past condition in relation to the post to which one is responding.<P><B>Posts and intent:</B> <I>Heartpain:</I> 860 since July 12, 1999. <I>SeenTheLight:</I> 828 (counting this one) since May 20, 2001. I dare say you did not read all 828 of my posts. Just as I have not read all 860 of yours. Of the 828 posts, less than half of one percent (41 ... and that is rather high, but didn't feel it was germane enough to get the actual count, as it is the concept that is important here). Of those "41" posts, the majority were directed against two rabble-rousers. So, in making your assumptions, and feeling what you feel, you are deriving the 99.5 percent of me from that admittedly negative half percent. In the other 99.5 percent of my posts: the majority deal with trying to help others in a manner in which I try to interject an insight based on my experience and the Marriage Builders concepts. If, in the example of the 5 blind men and the elephant, if one of them touches the rectum, that does not define the whole elephant. Even in posts where I have responded in an acerbic manner, I still attempt to interject something of value (not that I always succeed). To wit: with HumbleFish, in each of the posts was a call for her to seek professional help. Not as an acerbic put-down, but as a reality-based observation of her problems and the ability of the layity of this board being able to assist her in them. Likewise, in posts previous, she was admonished to read the material here on MB, etc.<P><B>My story:</B> You are correct in that there is no single post detailing my "story". However, if one would ever want to trace all of my posts, it is there collectively. However, in summation: I had a series of Internet-related affairs, one of which was physical. I do not dismiss it blindly or otherwise. I devote significant time and energy to (a) understanding the conditions that took me into the fog and passage on the Mothership and (b) recovering from my folly. You can label that howsoever you choose. The important thing is that my wife knows (a) that I am truly cognizant, remorseful, etc. and (b) that I (we) are 100-percent dedicated to rebuilding using the Marriage Builders precepts. I think that in the overall number of posts I make to people here, that is evident.<P><B>Re wisdom/intelligence:</B> Define it as you will. Wisdom is the ability to weigh one's circumstance, evaluate it in as an unbiased a manner as possible, and then implement positive change; fundamentally: discernment. Intelligence is a genetic inheritance. Knowledge is acquired. Compassion comes from the heart and soul. As for "seeming" to want to impress with "intelligence and wisdom" ... that <I>would</I> be base and petty. Fortunately, that is not my motivation. However, I will not apologize for my genetic gifts nor for the education and experience I have amassed. As for wisdom, that is the province of the poster to discern. Many on this site offer intelligence, knowledge, compassion and their particular wisdoms as well. As each individual is unique, so too, is the blend of those traits.<P>Yes, wisdom does not come from quoting dictionaries, encyclopediae nor any other reference books. The usage of those in that handful of posts was a device ... a plot device if you will. If you go back and read it/them, that will become readily apparent. It is also a form of humor, acerbic or not. As for the other terms you cite (from one post and those related to it): again, you do an injustice, as that is not the norm. Was responding to HumbleFish or RealityCheck in an acerbic fashion wise? In the context from what I was trying to accomplish, yes. But that is <I>my</I> opinion, just as you (and others) have theirs.<P>Finally, to (mis)quote Samuel Johnson: common sense is not that common. Fundamentally, common sense is the "wisdom" we should have applied if we hadn't been thinking wrongly. So where I am now is "common-sensical"; where I was as a WS was not. Neither was I common-sensical when I was a BS. Emotion most often stands in the way of "common sense." To wit: this thread. You approach it from emotion, not from common sense. That is a human condition in us all.<P><I>True wisdom doesn't come from quoting a dictionary, an encyclopedia or any other reference book. It comes from intelligence, common sense, care for others and a thoughtful approach. You could learn a lot from him.</I><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You would do well to follow your own advice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I generally do (the 99.5/.5 split).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm sure that I will be attacked, have my intelligence questioned, receive some kind of "witty" response or somesuch nonsense for writing this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What would that accomplish, my friend? You are not a drive-by poster bent on rabble-rousing. We are trying, as we have in the past, to settle this in a spirit of comity and in a manner that preserves public and self-dignity.<P>I do wish you the best in your sabbatical, and hope we all have the benefit of hearing from you in the (very near) future. You have much to offer to the members here.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited August 01, 2001).]

Oh boy, DeWayne, how long did it take you to write all those responses anyhow? Whew, it made me tired reading it!! <P>Thank you for taking the reigns for awhile on this subject... I'm sitting here with you, you know... trying to enjoy the view... I'd stopped bringing the subject up, for fear of being tossed over the flames... not good for the spirit, and burns take a long time to heal. <P>From here on in, I will remain an "old-timer" and will follow the path begun by others before me... thank you soulloss for reminding me that it is a hard-won mantle. <P>(((((DeWayne and Susan)))))<P>I wish you peace and love, and continued healing.

Hey DeWayne,<P>It's definately safe to go back to the MEGA-THREAD!! <P>I still hang around here but I only post to a few people that I know (very few these days). I tried to leave MB one time. That lasted about a month! LOL<P>Now, I'm headed back to D/D! <P>Mitzi

HI DeWayne,<BR> I agree 100%, things have changed so much since 99!! I guess Satan finally found this place and is trying to ruin it. <BR> I just THANK GOD SOOOOOOOOO MUCH that I came here THEN, rather than NOW because I'm sure my beloved W and I would have NEVER reconciled as I would have followed "the crowd" with hate rather than love, pride rather than wisdom and anger rather than forgivness. We would have NEVER EVER survived this with the advice given here (most of the time) now. Thanks of course to you and all those who not only saved my marriage, but my LIFE too!! <BR> Good luck to all the regulars here now may you join together and find the love we all did back then. Like a family. GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"

I wanted to drop in and thank the group of o “old timers” who keep letting the newcomers know that we have nothing of value to add to this forum. <P>Threads like this one have shown up pretty regularly the entire time I’ve been on this forum. The difference here is that this one is directly attacking my H. It’s become quite clear that many “oldtimers” do not appreciate new people on this forum and that they would just as soon we all leave. The comments paint ALL newcomers with a very broad brush as having little to nothing of use to offer this forum. I, and many newcomers (some have emailed me about this) feel that they are not welcome on this board. For the entire time I have been on this forum I have been trying to not take these posts personally. Tonight I found out that I, and all newcomers, were sent here by “Satan” and that as a newcomer I am part of ‘ "the crowd" with hate rather than love, pride rather than wisdom and anger rather than forgivness.’ Now there is some true Christianity in practice. Be assured that this hurts the new people coming here for support.<P>This has been bothering me for quiet some time but I’ve never said anything about it until now. Maybe I am taking things too personally today because STL and I have been handling some terrible, heartbreaking, issues with our children this week. Maybe I’m too emotional and hurting too much to see what wonderful input I, and all newcomers, am being given here.<P>You talk about how the “oldtimers” used 2x4’s to get WS to come around. You talk about how much help you were given. The curious thing is that for all of the support STL has given others, not one person on this forum has ever asked him how he was doing. Not one person has ever tried to draw him out to find out what was going on with him. Some people do not seek help easily. The one time he tried to reach out and gave some personal info he was shot down.<P>I offer here links to two recent posts that do a wonderful job of giving advice on how to be better MB members without the writers feeling the need to put down any of the MB members and they draw on the author’s experience here at MB.<P>Orchid’s <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011171.html" TARGET=_blank><BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011171.html</A>" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011171.html[/URL]</A> <P>Husband2you’s <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011277.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011277.html</A> <P>I have been finding it very hard to particiate here for a while because of this.<BR>At this time I am not sure what my future involvement in MB will be. I have put a lot of energy into this and have gained a lot. But when it starts to hurt me emotionally then it does not add to my marital recovery. <P>Z<P>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 02, 2001).]

Heartpain, and all,<P>I feel we've all been hurt by this. MB is for the benefit of yourself and one needs to take a look at their contribution. It takes alot of time to be on here. I've learned you really need to know what is going on with that member to post correctly. I know the way I look at my marriage, myself, and these boards are completely different today than they were several months ago. I guess it is maturity. The only way to make that value contribution is to continue to come back, open your heart, and try to help someone who is in need. We've all been there, we know how that person is crumbling inside ~ just as we crumbled. I think Zor is right, there was a presence from someone we don't want here. Now that it has been recognized, we can summon our best intentions and ward it out. I think we've learned alot. We are here to get our hearts back in the right direction.<P>It is not right when people feel they have no value here - value is the effort you put in. hugs, aftershock<P>(Heartpain - thanks for openning this thread)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>I wanted to drop in and thank the group of o “old timers” who keep letting the newcomers know that we have nothing of value to add to this forum. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Er... hi. I'm sorry, but I think you are wrong. I don't think any old timer has ever alluded to nor made any insinuation that newcomers have nothing of value to add to this forum. <P>Based on my interpretation of this thread and a few others, the discontent is with a new 'attitude' that has been developing. Posts and threads that are carriers of anger, judgement and conflict and have very little to do with building marriages. People coming to this site generally are already emotionally unsettled and behaviour such as is being protested in these threads aggravates the condition and draws much needed resources away from healing and growing and instead focuses those resources into unproductive conflict.<P>I'm sorry you are having such a rough week. If you feel that folk are attacking your husband (I'm not sure <I>attack</I> is the right word) I think you may be missing the heart of the message.1<P>((((((((((((<B>Zorweb and STL</B>)))))))))))))))<P><BR>deut

deut,<BR>er... I... think zorweb was referring to this quote above - which I chose to ignore - it's someone's honest feelings - but I took it the same way zorweb did - with GREAT offense. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess Satan finally found this place and is trying to ruin it. <I>gee, thanks!!!</I><BR>I just THANK GOD SOOOOOOOOO MUCH that I came here THEN, rather than NOW because I'm sure my beloved W and I would have NEVER reconciled as I would have followed "the crowd" with hate rather than love, pride rather than wisdom and anger rather than forgivness. We would have NEVER EVER survived this with the advice given here (most of the time) now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I won't go into my opinions too much again - I have 3 posts above already that state my view clearly. I was concerned when HP first started this thread, that some very negative affects would come from it. Misery loves company - and once ONE person states a gripe or complaint - that "company" comes crawling from everywhere to jump on the "misery" band wagon. Before you know it (and here we are....) there's some very negative comments coming around that HURT the feelings of those of us who are trying to keep the integrity and value of the board. Valued old-timers who get THEIR feelings hurt will stop posting, for fear of judgment by "the great ones". THen where will THAT leave this board???<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Hi Faith, and everyone,<P>What a mess!! So full of misunderstandings... <P>I am an old-timer who began a thread about three months ago... directed to the old-timers. A few people got upset about it, but for the most part, I was supported. This "problem" has been around for awhile... months, anyway.<P>I know Frank doesn't need me defending what he wrote (and yes, I can completely see how it comes across, although I don't think he meant it so harshly... I hope not, anyway)... but... he has been flamed but good too... as I have, as many have. If you've been around and posting for any length of time (and hey, I top all of ya's with the counting the posts, since I began with a different name "new_beginning" ~~ I have over 5000 posts) you're gonna be flamed at some time. No, that doesn't make it right, but it is the reality. I have been very, very hurt by some things said to me. It goes with the territory, I guess.<P>...and so it goes round and round and round... hurt feelings, posting something that hurts, hurt feelings, posting something that hurts... not that any of it's right... <P>...it just "is"...<P>I wish I could describe TRULY, in a way that wouldn't hurt, what it was like when I came here in 1999. I wish there was a way to show you, but alas, I cannot, because there was a crash of the website, and all our stuff was lost. When we bagan again, another kinda-crash happened, which is where the "read only" posts come from. Then they separated out the boards, which is what you see today. <P>All I know is that when I came as a WS (and a BS, but it was my affair that brought me here) I was gently, yet firmly, guided to follow the concepts of MB-- and the people telling me about the concepts had LIVED THEM and USED THEM and KNEW EXACTLY HOW TO LEAD ME. It wasn't just opinion and hand-holding, although that was here too... <P>As an over-40 year old woman who remembers the "good ol' days" in life ~okay, it was the 70's ~ I don't think it's way off base to want to remember the "good ol' days" of MB. That DOES NOT mean that there isn't value here now, or that there aren't new people who come in, like I did, and devour all the information and then share what they've learned. My problem has been, and continues to be, when someone jumps in, says so-and-so about Plan A, has no idea what Plan A is about though, or says, "dump the bum" without reading the principles/concepts here.<P>As the resident "if we all had a candle what a bright world it would be" person, I do wish ALL OF US peace...<P>God knows we need some.

I think there are many people that are taking this as some kinda "Old-timers" vs "Newbies" thing and that is <B>NOT</B> the case.<P>It has never been said that we (the oldtimers) feel newcomers to the boards have nothing to offer.<BR>I came to the boards around the same time as some of the "old-timers" that have posted on this thread. We were all newbies for the most part back then.<BR>The difference I see is <BR>the attitude on the boards now vs the attitude on the boards then<BR>the advice given now vs the advice given then<P>I see statements and advice given now about plan A that are so way off base<BR>I see people giving pats on the back for LB's<BR>I see people being blasted for falling off the wagon and then that turning into some kind of game<BR>I see people being advised to go to Plan B when it just seems waaaaaayyyyyy to early (I LIVED with a WS during his affair for 7 months - HP Plan A'd his WS for 18 months during which her affair went on for the most part during that time WE DO KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE!!!!)<BR>The truth about Plan B is <B>nobody</B> and I mean <B>nobody</B> can tell you when it is a good time to do it and we were always careful to say that<BR>"Only you know if you are completely ready to handle Plan B and only you know if you can't Plan A anymore and only YOU know if your Plan A has been sufficient to survive Plan B (that's a BIG one folks)<P>I am not trying to make this into some sort of pissing contest (I'm a girl and can't win that one - besides my aim isn't very good )<BR>Nor am I trying to make this into a popularity contest.<BR>I think I speak for most oldtimers when I say that we would be <B>MORE</B> than happy to hand the reighns over to newbies<BR>But - and this is a big but - we don't feel comfortable letting the reigns go when the boards are like this.<P>I apologize if this is coming across as a "we are so better" type of thing<BR>I guess what I want to say is <BR>"things were so much better then" type of thing.<P>Nicole<P>

I have been here since the "good ol days", August of 1999, and I have a much different take on it than the other "oldtimers". While I agree with pretty much all of what Heartpain has stated, if my memory serves me correctly, the same things occurred in 1999. There were still posters getting into heated debates/arguments, there were still posters stating "throw the bum out", and there were still posters who came along simply to start trouble, and now, just like then, there are still thoughtful, compassionate people attempting to help others sort through the mess that they find themselves in at the moment. <P>It seems to me that just like in regular 'ol life, we emotional human beings tend to remember things in a fashion that probably is a lot better or worse than they actually were, particularly when comparing the past to the present. For example, WS' during their affairs, and probably initially right after D-Day, tend to only remember the bad things about the marriage, and will most often exaggerate them in their minds, while BS' tend to remember all of the good things about the marriage, often exaggerating those. In reality, it probably lies somewhere in the middle.<P>I say all of that to say to those that are considered "newbies"(I too hate that term), I wouldn't get too upset about what some of the "oldtimers" have posted. Things are really no worse than what they were in the "good 'ol days", nor are they any better. IMHO, I think that it is simply the frustration of having to read about the intense pain that affairs cause, which I think tends to cause some of the older posters to relive the pain that that went through at the same stages that the "newbies" are encountering. Who knows, 2 years from now, the posters that are considered "newbies" now will be complaining about the tone of the boards while longing for the good ol days. <P>Maybe some time away from the boards, and the fresh pain that is on these boards, may just be what the doctor ordered.<P>For what it's worth, that's my $.02<P><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited August 02, 2001).]

What? Satan? OMG here on MB?????<P>

THANKS for making some truly educational reading. Everyone's true feelings are really coming out. You can tell when someone really cares about these boards - which are our life lines (maybe at this moment in our life), you surely can't be at your neighbor's house for hours spilling these beans.<P>(off the topic, I feel frustrated right now, and just feel like crying - this reading has truly hit my heart - thanks for your heartwarming responses).

Hi all,<BR>I am a new here and felt that I should reply to this topic. I have seen some negotive attitudes and replies from some members. On the other hand I have seen more positive than negotive, I won't let the negotive discourage me from visiting or posting, besides if I let the negotive get me down I would have ended my marriage before coming here.<BR> I don't know what things were like in the good old days, but I feel that for the most part this sight has been constructive, enlightining and very helpful. I do see hope for us newbies, even if the oldtimers don't. I know that the old and new members participating in this forum aren't all certified counselors or psycologists and even if they were, everyone is different and everyone gives different advice. Some people give advice from their emotions and some from their inteligence or both depending on the circumstances. Yes, advice from the emotional side of things tend to be more damaging, but I believe I am here because I have been an emotional wreck since the A was exposed, so I can see where things can become emotional here. <BR>I believe no matter where you go you won't find the perfect advice that will fix all of our problems, and I don't believe good advice to one person is always good for another. <BR>I believe, I can take the advice for what its worth. If I don't believe it is good for me, I'll leave it on the table. If the advice seems like it will work, I'll take it and run with it, just don't blame anyone if it doesn't work out, because it is my decision to take the advice.<BR>I try not to give advice if I don't know what I'm talking about(I don't pretend to know everything). If I can't relate to someones problems or give advice to them, I try to empathize and give words of encouragement. <BR>What I am saying is from my perspective as a new member here is that nothing is perfect, and I feel this sight has helped my W and I a lot. I think as bad as the older members see it, I see it as the best place to get advice from people that have had experiences similar to ours.E

er... <B>Faith1</B>, ... <P>Lemmee borrow a quote from your post and twist it to my own nefarious uses...<P>"...there's some very negative comments coming around that HURT the feelings of those of us who are trying to keep the integrity and value of the board."<P>Sound familiar? It should... just about everybody involved in this apparent conflict (which I can't honestly say I fully understand) is using this as their battle cry.<P>I say, enough is enough. Drop this whole thing right now. It's leeching into too many threads, upsetting too many people, prevent all of us from dealing with <I>more important issues</I>.<P>No more name calling, blaming, attacking, condescending... this is a place of healing, for newbie, oldie, middle person... <P>It doesn't matter who said what anymore or who started it.<P>Let's all just cut it out.<P>If we can't gather here and get along like decent folk should (particularly since one can always choose to scroll past any thread or post), how in the world are we supposed to get along with a <I>spouse</I>. <P>Lets all just drop this now, start over and all agree that there shall be no more harsh words. <P>ok ?<P><BR>my last 2 cents,<BR>deut

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F A:<BR><B>I have been here since the "good ol days", August of 1999, and I have a much different take on it than the other "oldtimers". While I agree with pretty much all of what Heartpain has stated, if my memory serves me correctly, the same things occurred in 1999. There were still posters getting into heated debates/arguments, there were still posters stating "throw the bum out", and there were still posters who came along simply to start trouble, and now, just like then, there are still thoughtful, compassionate people attempting to help others sort through the mess that they find themselves in at the moment. <P>It seems to me that just like in regular 'ol life, we emotional human beings tend to remember things in a fashion that probably is a lot better or worse than they actually were, particularly when comparing the past to the present. For example, WS' during their affairs, and probably initially right after D-Day, tend to only remember the bad things about the marriage, and will most often exaggerate them in their minds, while BS' tend to remember all of the good things about the marriage, often exaggerating those. In reality, it probably lies somewhere in the middle.<P>I say all of that to say to those that are considered "newbies"(I too hate that term), I wouldn't get too upset about what some of the "oldtimers" have posted. Things are really no worse than what they were in the "good 'ol days", nor are they any better. IMHO, I think that it is simply the frustration of having to read about the intense pain that affairs cause, which I think tends to cause some of the older posters to relive the pain that that went through at the same stages that the "newbies" are encountering. Who knows, 2 years from now, the posters that are considered "newbies" now will be complaining about the tone of the boards while longing for the good ol days. <P>Maybe some time away from the boards, and the fresh pain that is on these boards, may just be what the doctor ordered.<P>For what it's worth, that's my $.02]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Very well said, FA. I think we have forgotten some of the disagreements, OP posting, etc. that has happened over the years. As an in-betweener (I don't feel like I'm an old-timer, since I don't get to post much) I think one of the huge problems is that we (all of us who know the Marriage Builders principals) are not directing those new individuals enough. Myself included. I also think we are feeling the loss of NSR and those like him, who took the time to post a welcome to so many people...<P>Very many have tried, but it does take a big chunk of time to "greet" everyone. (Thank you all who have done so much for this board and for all of us!) <P>So, I hope to be better in directing and helping, when I am able. I am not verbose in this forum, but I hope to get over it. <P>P.S. I sure hope those whose feelings are/were hurt will no longer feel that way. I feel all who have posted have contributed to this site, much more than I (I only have 445 posts to my name and have been registered since April 1999 and that is including the ones where I have bumped threads up). <BR>

I agree with deut.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<BR>

This thread (and other's like it) is absolutely necessary for the health of this forum. We need to hold a mirror to ourselves from time to time and critically ask if we like what we see AND work to fix it if we don't. A lot of us newcomers are caught up in the emotions of our own situations and those around us. Things we say don't always come out exactly "right". It's nice to have "old timers" around with the perspective of seeing this board under different circumstances and potentially thinking with clearer heads. <P>I doubt that the forum can ever be returned exactly to what it once was - all things change. But, it can still be a place of help, a place of support, or a place of refuge for those who need it.<P>It was very painful for me to watch many people I like and respect get drawn into the "flame" wars a short time ago. It did not happen overnight, the buildup was long and slow (hmmm, what's familiar about that?) and then the situation exploded with many threads coming to a head at the same time (plus some malicious shots by drive-by posters). The feeling of helplessness was the worst. Like an A, how could we make it stop? We couldn't. It just had to wash over us. So many personal situations seemed to be taking a turn for the worse, then all the personal attacks. I had to cut back on my time here during that period (real life vacation helped out a little too), but I ultimately just couldn't keep away.<P>Fortunately, with time, reason prevailed - isn't that one of the hard lessons we try to learn here? I now believe that this forum will be better because of what happened and what we learned from it. It is hard work to be civilized ALL THE TIME. I think we need occasional threads to remind us of the extraordinary level of etiquette and courtesy this forum requires.<P>Bad advice. Yeah there's lots of it. Good advice. Some of that too. Plus, everything in between. The ONLY WAY I can think of to counter bad advice is by offering good advice. <P>This is our board. ALL OF US. It's sad if anyone leaves because they don't feel appreciated or don't see value here (old or new). I hope those who left check back occasionally. Maybe we should work on Plan A for our forum.<P>When I first came here, I'd read the active posts with lots of responses and see a range of suggestions. Suddenly, one would hit the core of the problem. I'd check the profile of the poster -- BINGO, "old timer".<P>Old timers: You've been where all of us newcomers are right now. You know what we're going through. You've also come out the other side of the tunnel. You KNOW this stuff works! Your insight and perspective can help us. We need you. I'm sorry that I don't have anything to offer in return other than THANK YOU.<P>Respectively,<BR>-Jeffers<P>P.S. An etiquette issue: if there's anyone here that I forgot to thank for responding to one of my posts I'm sorry. Rest assured that I really appreciated your thoughts. I can guarantee that I looked at your profile and probably even checked out some of your past threads for further insight. I won't forget to thank you in the future!<BR>

I heartily second Jeffers take on this.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

deut, I agree COMPLETELY. (although I don't think I called anyone names tee-hee - just kidding - just had to throw that in) THank you. I had decided to drop it too. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone in any way.<P>I think we all agree on what this board should be, but we all have different perspectives (due to what each of us has been through and the length of time here). So, yes, let's get back to the business of supporting and helping each other with our marriages and lives. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 03, 2001).]

!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeenTheLight:<BR><B>I heartily second Jeffers take on this.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>STL I will let you in on a little secret. That would help this board get along much better, and I have to listen to my own words as well.<P>If you don't like what someone says. Don't respond. It keeps tensions to a minimum and I think we all need a little less of it in our lives. Really, would we be on a forum such as this if we didn't???<P>Just some food for thought.

SQ:<P>Which is why I heartily second it (as well as deut ... and I will now add Faith1).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL See is isn't it a much more happy place when we all just talk nice to each other. I am so happy with the turn this thread has taken.

SQ:<P>Yes, a happy turn is preferrable. However, having dialog on differences is equally important. The key, however, is that when expressing differences, that the tone remain respectful, civil and remain germane to MB issues.<P>[I omitted thanking K and some others for their thoughtful posts. Thanks to all of you as well.]<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited August 03, 2001).]

Christ......this whole thread sounds much like a marriage in dire need of repair. Let's get on with the matters at hand.....and use the recommendations and opinions where they are needed.....in helping each other instead of justifying each and every post.<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

Just Learning has Just One Last Thought, <P>I think somehow the newer members think that the "good old days" were better. I don't recall anyone having much fun on the MB site. Times weren't very good for anyone posting when I came here Feb. of 99. People were in the middle of dealing with exactly what people now are here dealing with.<P>What was different is something I mentioned before. There were fewer people, and only one place to post. So the advice tended to be more consistent (maybe not better) and everyone had time to read most of the posts. There were some real flaming threads here (DG99) was one of the most prominate that comes to mind.<P>The other thing that should be remembered is that of all those people posting then only a small percentage still do post. (I was determined to hang around here until Chris decided what to do ) <P>Yet it does wear on you. And I think that the newer members here will see this as time goes on. It is part of what makes the approach by Harley pretty good. You are going to see the same stories over and over and over again. The commonalities in affairs and marriage troubles in general are just amazing. (One, of the important things I have learned)<P>One thing that was more common a few years ago were flights of pure silliness (the parties). Where people started a thread and decided a party was in order and people would post the items they would bring. It is hard to do this with the volume of posts now. What made it particularly funny was what someone had posted was often used as the humor. You have to have read the posts to "know" someone that well.<P>So the site has changed, but the purpose hasn't. I truely hope that the newer members will continue to post long after the reason they came here has been resolved. Sort of giving back for what they received, but done in as much of a non love buster way as possible.<P>I personally think that DeWayne's post was much more of a "till we meet again" post, than a rant about the situation here. Yes, things are different, and they may not be as good, but they are what they are and we need to deal with that.<P>Sorry, rambled far too long. Must go home and eat.<P>God Bless All of You,<P>JL