Hello to everyone,<P>This makes me feel really, really bad. I never came to MB to have this happen. I ignored HF/RC for the most part. He/She finally got under my skin, and attacked wrongly. My heart says not to do this, and sometimes frustration gets the better of you. I, too, am learning the MB principles. At least I read the material on this site, before I came into the forums. I had a different basis tho, I suffered for 10 months, with some angry outbursts at my H because of his EA. But I was living with intense pain and anguish because of his amorous attention to someone else during our marriage other than me that I had found out about. And I had lived with divorce and other PA's with a different person. It was very wrong of me to strike out against HF/RC, but I became upset to anyone attacking anyone on MB boards. I only came to MB for help and support, and to give support. I am only in an infancy at this time, but I do not wish to be label in some derogatory fashion. Were it not for Dr. Harley, and this forum, I would have never learned HNHN, Marital Recovery Agreement (we are under now), POJA, and how to Plan A. And my H would not have either. I was living so much pain last summer (June-September), and even after that. I felt like I was going to go crazy with my anguish, and I know I was clinically depressed - although, I did not go the depression drug route. I tried to talk to clergy only to be cast aside - Does anybody care? We started counseling in October, but the traditional counseling was not really helping (or atleast our counselor was not). I went through months, feeling the dispair that no one could care, my H's emotional indifference, that the Lord did not care, and my demolished self-esteem. Finally reading Dobson, finding Minirth/Meyers and Gottman, accidently opened the door to MB and Dr. Harley. My self-esteem is still fragile, but I have tried to welcome newbies, only to see the same things you have documented above - I will not dispute that. I definately see not enough help for people posting, especially when someone posts, and they only get 3-4 posts back. I see posts ignored, so I will try to give that person support. It is very hard to continue to give, give support; yet not to receive support. All I ask is for forgiveness. I don't need to cry inside for the reason that I don't feel of any value here; because I cry inside for the turmoil and anguish that my marriage and H has bestowed upon us. And yes, I acknowledge that I am at fault - I always have. Take it for what it is worth, I need help from you old timers. Sometimes I just feel that I am not getting value here, and I am not giving value. aftershock

Hey DeWayne!<P><B>THANK YOU!!</B>.....<P>for giving me so much support when I thought I needed to plan A my ex! Little did I know, that I wasn't doing it for my marriage but for me! <P>And if you ever feel like saying HI, you can find my email in the Roll Call! Or you can just join us on the Mega-Thread! <P>Love ya,<BR>Mitzi <P>

Dewayne,<P>I'm with you here.<P>It's just getting too hard.<P>Plan A isn't about how you deal with your WS people!!!!<BR>It's about how you acr and react to EVERYONE you encounter!!!<P>Not that anybody will pay attention to that statement.<P>I'm being a bit harsh but most people who have read your post HAVE MISSED THE POINT ENTIRELY!!!!!!!<P>The advice that is being given on the boards by the more "regular" posters at this point is NOT GOOD ADVICE!!<BR>And when we the "old timers" try and chime in with our advice and experience we are ignored or told we really don't understand the situation at hand.<P>It's been said over and over and over again but they just don't get it!<P>I'm sorry for running off.<BR>I'm sorry for being harsh and rude...<BR>but I'm just too tired<BR>and it has nothing to do with MB burnout...<BR>I'm tired of the current state of the boards and don't know how to deal with it.<P>luv ya DeWayne<P>keep in touch you have my addy!

What the heck is happening to MB? I came in on my knees and have slowly risen above that status, then suddenly, <B>WHAM</B>, I get slammed back to my crawling position because no here seems worthy enough to help me to forge my marriage using MB concepts and techniques? When I post, which is not as often as I'd like or should, I appreciate everyone who responses to my post(s). Whether or not I take their advise into consideration depends on my particular situation and comfort. Old-timers.......don't let newbies, like myself, down by going off into cyberspace. I'm here to get all the information that I can and utilize what I think will work best for me. I'm in the toddler stage of recovery within my marriage and I still need a lot of up-bringing.<P>Unfortunately, my financial status does not allow me to afford one on one counseling sessions with the Harleys. Yet, I'm a quick learner and would appreciate a few lessons from people who have used these concepts to success. The MB plans are easy to understand yet difficult to implement and continue. These things take considerable time to perfect. Unfortunately, those in pain, especially upon learning of an A, hope to fix things right away and make the pain go away. Impatience is the burden that a BS carries with them, seemingly forever. Patience is a virtue. And I wish to thank those who show this virtuous quality time and again on these forums. Perhaps this is something that should be practiced with more concerted efforts by all members. Oh, and I can't forget <B>respect</B>. That is right up there with patience.<P>Do <B>NOT</B> let this forum turn into a popularity contest. That would do everyone who has every posted here a great disservice. <P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B><P><p>[This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited July 30, 2001).]

I haven' been here very long but have read well over 75 different post some have even come close to the problems I have. But one thing is for sure I have learned a great deal about relationships and ways to try understanding my own problem. I have only posted in here once and only got one reply but there is so much good information in here that it helped me. I won't say my problem is gone but it is far less an issue now then it was and it has made things better. My partner and I talk about it and undestand each other better where as before it was an arguement. So in short this is by far my favorite site for finding information pretaining to my problems.

DeWayne,<P>A most excellent post. The issues that we deal with here are emotionally charged, (red-lining in most cases) and one thing I've always remarked upon was how <I>good</I> everyone was to each other. The golden rule was followed and honoured, and no-one ever really needed to waste all that much time <I>talking</I> about it.<P>Even when we all ganged up on Arik (with those 2x4s), we did so as friends... with love. Sure, there was the odd troll, but that's the internet for ya, and we dealt with it without pulling half the board into a mudslinging fest. <P>Indeed, things on this board have changed. Not for the better. When I first came here, my marriage, hell <I>my entire existance</I> was so deep in the gutter that I can barely find the words to express the desolation of my soul at that point in my life. What I found here were a group of people who took me into their collective arms regardless; and by sharing with me and allowing me to share with them, they helped me find the strength to start rebuilding myself. <P>Also, my wife, whom I had betrayed in the vilest fashion, found stregnth here, and fellowship, encouragement, escape (when needed) and valuable insight into my behaviour and state of mind. Though she denies it, she enacted the <I>perfect</I> <B>plan A</B>. Under the guidance of, well, everyone, she handled herself (and me) perfectly. It was kind of freaky at the time (I was making preps for my impending homelessness) but as I became more secure it allowed me to face my own shame rather than guilt loaded on in the form of harsh judgements (of which I was most deserving). <P>I'm blabbing on, I know. What I'm trying to do is offer up a testimonial to the way 'things used to be'. Yeah, I know, 'things change', 'get with the times', yadayada. The bottom line; if D-day had been last week, instead of 2yrs ago, and we happened upon this site... we'd be headed <I>down</I>. <P>That's not to say that there isn't value on the boards anymore... on the contrary, indeed there is. But as stated in the op, you gotta dig for it. As an excavationist, I can attest to the fact that if you're digging for something, it helps to know what you are digging for and where to dig. I dunno 'bout anyone else here, but when I first showed up here, it was like marriage 911 - no time for digging and certainly no state of mind capable of discerning through piles of empty platitudes.<P>I'll let others get with the times. Good advice and cohesive caring from those at MB played a crucial roll in starting the process that saved my marriage. The concepts and ideas will continue to help in the rebuilding. It would be very sad if the boards and the friendships forged here could not play a part in that adventure. (worse comes to worse, my email is dawg__lover@hotmail.com - note the double underscore)<P>One more time: Good advice and a cohesive group focused on loving principles saved my marriage, and arguably my very soul. Bad advice, insults, platitudes and so much bickering would probably have resulted in my children going to bed without a tuck-in from their dad, and the woman of my dreams forever hating my guts.<P>I hope you are right; that it is a 'phase'. I'll say a few prayers that those active on this board take a moment to reflect on the virtues of love, patience and empathy before their replying to the next post. Most do already, I'm praying specifically that <I>everyone</I> does.

see DeWayne....you as always, are right..he's a keeper...the above is one of a multiude of reasons I am still with this man....<P>He was so proud the day he changed his username from Soulloss'ExH to Deut....<P>as for you..well..I know where to find you!!...lets hope K is right..it's a phase and we can come in from the front yard....<P>there is one topic I will address...<P>I am an MB Old-timer.<BR>It is a mantle I wear proudly.<BR>I've earned it.<BR>As have they all who adopts the term.<BR>We have adopted it from those before us.<BR>I like it.<BR>I mean NO superiority when I use it...<P>why on earth would any be construed...and why so consistently..???<P>I'm an MB Old-timer.<P>it took me 22 months of tears, laughter, pain, joy, sharing, and loving this place and it's people for me to be an 'Old-timer'....<P>I'm proud of it...<P>again, it does denote we are superior in any way...it simply denotes that we have been here a long time...<P><BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{DeWayne & Susan}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>as for the 'Honcho'...well, there as you know, DeWayne, I have some serious 'issues'.....but my friend, this eloquent,thoughtful and sad thread is no longer the place nor the time..<P><BR><I>as for those who were waiting for a 'dylanesque' post....I apologize...but to paraphase:<P>"I don't want to go into combat with an unarmed opponent..."</I><P>and remember...only YOU know when you are ready for what<BR>and what you are ready for when.<P>my suggestion.....'newbies' ...first go to the 'just found out' board...then go to the 'Plan A and Plan B' board....familiarize yourself....read everything..devour it all......then, perhaps a foray into GQ....<P>feel free to e-mail:<BR>sacred_rain@yahoo.com<P>much love to all...will be lighting my MB candles..<P>again....much love.....<P>Dylan<P>Hi Sheryl!<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

DeWayne,<P>As you know, I am another oldtimer. Like WhoDat, I only have so much time, and follow just a few people - some old and some new.<P>I usually ignore the posts I don't like. Like many others on this thread have posted, there is still alot of good happening here. <P>Enjoy your time away. I hope you do come back. I have been here since 1999, and still feel I have alot more to learn. You have helped me tremendously over the years. Your ability to win your W back has been an inspiration to me! <P>Wishing you life's very, very best!!!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

HP. How to say this without you being able to hear the tone of my voice, which is soft and reflective . I almost skipped this thread as I do the ones you referred to in your post. Reason? Because it wasn't relevant to my recovery, but I thought of when I first came here in Dec. When WAT replied to my first post. He gently and compassionately told me I was in denial and to consider my H's EA as an affair. He recommended the reading material and I read....everything. (WAT...respectful thanks)<P>Then when I thought things were over, Oswald responded to my very long and emotional post without judgement, just wise and thoughtful and objective observations. (Oswald, if you are still out there...respectful thanks)<P>And although Just Learning has never actually responded to one of my posts...I read and still read everything he posts with an open mind. (JL, respectful thanks)<P>I did receive some bitter responses at times, I chose to ignore them...they weren't relevant to my recovery. I just wanted you to know there are some of us that rarely post or respond to posts that have reaped great benefits from MB veterans. The junior members need them the most IMO. I wish I had your wisdom and experience to feel confident in responding to their posts. I remember how much pain I felt.<P>HP...respectful thanks to you for sticking around as long as you have. Know in your heart that you have been a source of information and comfort for many of us that did not know where to go when our lives were falling apart.<P>And many thanks to all MB veterans. I think you've figured out..... I have great respect for all of you.

I checked back quickly and when I saw the volume of replies, I felt I had better acknowledge them.....<P><B>k - </B> In my book, you are surely a true "honcho". It's different to have the designation bestowed rather than claim it for yourself!! <P><B>Faith1 - </B> Forgive me, too, but you only registered on 7/1/01...I registered 7/12/99...I hope that you, too, will find that you spend less time here as the months roll on. I lived on this board for almost a year. It saved my sanity, gave me new friends and the tools to save my marriage, but it also dramatically affected my work to the negative. You are definitely one of the "good ones" as far as trying to keep the board grounded, but recently it seems to be a losing battle. I would suggest, if you have time, to go to the "read-only" forum and peruse the posts in 98/99 and 2000. It would give you a feel for what I(and others) have been talking about.<P>I disagree with you on the Humblefish posts. The woman is definitely confused and crying out for help. She only attacked and tried to justify her actions when she was assailed here. This is not a game, life is not a game.<P>(cell phones in cars) -- yes, or at least increase the penalties dramatically for accidents where one of the people was using a cell phone at the time. (smoking indoors) - Depends...I'm a smoker, but I don't like to bother other people..Boulder, CO doesn't allow you to smoke in *any* public area, indoors or out....We have the freedom to "ignore certain ideas", but not to viciously attack another.<P>The forum has not gone to "he!! in a handbasket". It has just taken a (temporarily, I hope) ugly turn.<P><B>alexy - </B>Thank you for the encouraging thoughts. To answer your question about when is it time to "leave the nest", I don't know. Just like everything else, it's up to the individual. When you find that you no longer benefit and you either have no advice for others or they don't listen, that's a good sign. Health and happiness to you, my friend.<P><B>Dave(WAT) - </B> You certainly have nothing to apologize for. I have never seen anything but kindness and caring from you. You conduct yourself with a dignity and sense of humor that we could all benefit from emulating. Things certainly aren't going your way right now, but you will be fine no matter what happens, because of the person you are inside...<P><B>SuzzieQ -</B>The current state of the board has been a shared concern by many of us who have been here a while. We have discussed it here and offline as well. Nyneve probably does a better job of expressing this than I. My "plan A in a nutshell" has been in some of my past postings. I really do believe that you have to make it a lifestyle.<P><B>trueheart - </B>We have all been gulity to some degree on occasion. Most of my transgressions occur when defending another. I do get carried away...<P><B>WhoDat - </B>Well, my friend, you have alienated people at times...The good ones get over it because they know where you are coming from. I certainly like the "up-front, in-your-face" approach as opposed to the "mollycoddling" I see at times. Sometimes you have to start with "mollycoddling" to get attention then proceed to "in-your-face" when they aren't listening. Those "hands" I "alluded to", in some cases are truly dangerous to some of the more "fragile" souls you refer to. There is a quiet groundswell building to correct this thru the moderators. Time will tell if it has an effect.<P>I guess the title of "Supreme MarriageBuilders Guru" should probably be reserved for Dr. H, Steve and Jennifer, but you, k and JL are definitely way up there....I agree with your "goodbye" sentiments, and Lord knows, I've teased Nyneve enough about her "goodbyes". That's why I'm not saying "goodbye" but "later...". Best of life to you...BTW, you have always had the best "tagline" of all...<P><B>struggle_free! - </B>Thanks...<P><B>Faith1 - </B> Here again, I see... Again, I suggest that you do the research...spend some time in the "read-only" posts to see where many of us came from. You are right, advice doesn't have to be "textbook or the greatest", but it does have to be safe and caring I am not "putting down" anyone trying to do some good, only the ones doing harm.<P><B>sing - </B> My dear, you have more wisdom than you care to admit. One aspect of that is skipping posts...The fact that your marriage didn't survive doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I consider you a winner and a success story. You have been through a lot and learned a lot and are a better person for it. That's what counts, too bad you H can't see it....<P><B>K - </B>How I do remember "d99"!! I guess I have to "second" WhoDat's nomination of you as "guru", but he is as well. For the most part you are right, there are many who "dumb down" to respond to posts, but there are some here who don't have to "dumb down", they are already there. The problem is that they maintain a facade that is quite different and the mask comes off when they respond to such posts.<P>Hey!!! You guys have cloaks??? Cool!!! <P><BR>--DeWayne--

Had to break this one reply into three...kept timing out when I tried to post the entire thing.......<P><BR><B>Hi Sis!!!! </B> You are right about the Plan A interpretation being wrong and I have seen many posts where repliers have indicated Plan A is being a doormat. Or at least that Plan A is OK until the WS does something that is not right. Plan A is Plan A is Plan A. Nothing the WS does changes that. In support of that, both Dr. Phil and Gary Zukav say that it's not what people do to you that's important, it's how you react to that treatment. They are so right....You and Robert(and Kristin) enjoy your vacation.... <P><BR><B>Dylan - </B> I know that when something get you, Nyneve and Lori as riled up as this, that I am not in the wrong for how I feel. I cannot elaborate or improve on what you said. You are truly wise and compassionate....I've often thought to go back to some of my old posts and create a new posting as an "index"...Not sure if anyone would care or read 'cause it doesn't give them immediate gratification, and besides, I've been more lucky with this than skilled. I would really only want people to read the advice you and others gave me, anyway....<P><BR>I disagree with your second reply. This message probably would have been more effective with you as the presenter. Love you guys...<P><BR><B>JL - </B> I guess that it is predictable, but the only "mea culpas" I am reading here are from those who are the antithesis of the profile I am trying to highlight. You have a patience and gentle wisdom that, I think, is unparalleled here. Don't change a thing. You have been the only one that could get the Student to open up and start to change. That qualifies as a "miracle" in my book. I will be back, maybe in 2-3 weeks or 2-3 months. This thing is like a narcotic, it keeps you coming back for more!! <P><BR><B>Faith1 - </B>Again!! Your reply third reply needs no comment. You pretty much nailed it!!<P><BR><B>Hi Infidelity - </B> You are another to take this the wrong way...That mirror you are looking into must be clear glass because it cannot be showing your reflection...Modesty abounds in many cases here...Thank you!! <P><BR><B>Nyneve - [b]Bet you get pretty tired of seeing your pet peeve show up so often!!! Thanks for being here. Thanks for all of the love, caring and help you gave me when I needed it. You have helped so many we should probably re-name you: Nyneve Nightengale... "Platonic hugs" to you and R...(can't be a newbie to know about those platonic hugs we share!!!!)<P><BR>[b]after shock - </B>I didn't even have you in mind when I wrote the original post, and, yes, I have seen many of your posts. You are an asset to the forums...Being able to acknowledge faults as well as where you shine makes you a "real" person. That's what people need to see, that we are all just human with the attendant positives and foibles...<P><BR><B>Mitzi - </B>How is it I always seem to "drag" you back to GQII?? I was only more than glad to help you after the help and support you gave me when I needed it. Remember how ready I was at times to "throw in the towel"(actual post subject by me)?? You and others always pulled me back and kept me to the task at hand and I will be forever grateful. Without that support, I would be divorced now, not having been patient enough to wait until W was ready....Luv ya back...<P><BR>P.S. I already have one reply on the Mega-Thread, is it safe to go back??? LOL <P><BR>--DeWayne--<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited August 01, 2001).]

<B>Nicole - </B>With what's happening here and also to you personally, don't apologize, I understand. Besides, when you and Dylan are extremely perturbed it's most like how the rest of us are seen after we get a splinter. You two are such kind souls that I don't think I will ever see you as angry as I can get....Yup, I've got your addy and you, mine...Luv you, too...Hug those kids for me!!<P><B>GeezLouise - </B>I really don't understand your first two or three sentences. As for the second paragraph, I agree with you. As for the third, that's what we are trying to do here. It isn't turning <I>into</I> a "popularity contest", it already is one. Certain posters are giving horrible advice, but doing enough back-slapping and palm-greasing to give themselves credibility. Even taking to attacking "old-timers". Even "old-timers" who are wise beyond their years and wouldn't harm a fly. This is what we want to stop. This is the disservice that is being done here.<P><B>S_J4V_R - </B>I'm glad you find information here that is helpful, but the fact that you and your partner *can* talk about these things is a huge positive. It sounds like you have all the basics, but just need some help with the "fine-tuning" and these forums can help you with that. Good luck!!<P><B>Desiree - </B>Thanks so much for the complement, but there is no way I could have been any inspiration to you had you not been one of those to give me a push, nudge or smack with a 2x4 when I needed it. You are a charter member of the club that I owe my life to...Love to you...<P><B>deut - </B>Thanks so much for your reply!!!! It shows that, even though you have made some mistakes, you are a very "high-quality" person inside, as is Dylan. You really have dug down deep in yourself to find answers and direction. You are to be greatly lauded for that. You are a truly fine man and as I said to Dylan in an e-mail, you both have "keepers"...You both have the humility necessary to admit faults and correct them. You are succeeding and will continue to because of this...<P><B>vernon3 - </B>You have every right to skip any post you wish, including this one. We have all had more than enough to deal with and "off-topic"(at least personally) threads may be just too much...I know, I have done the same thing. Yup, Oswald is a good one!! And that JL, he's just one-of-a-kind!! Avoiding the "bitter" responses and unpleasant posts is a sign of maturity, focus and resolve that will stand you in good stead in all the other things in life. Wish I had your "focus", my mind is usually a cacophony of thoughts, bits of songs, etc...I just can't concentrate for very long. LOL <P><B>Everyone - </B> I want to thank you all for your thoughtful and sincere responses. Even when not here, I will think about all of you often...and, I most probably *will* be back at some point. I kinda like the idea of "in for a while" then "gone for a while"...I sure hope that the forums "self-organize" back to serving their original purposes...Love to all of you...<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne:<P>Since you preface your post with the statement that you are basing it on the reaction it evoked, there is no need for the apology. One does not need to apologize for what one feels, just how one reacts. The fact that you distinguish between disrespectful judgments and what you feel is adequate.<P><B>Honcho</B>? That has been foisted upon me. I do not know why you (and/or others) would pin that on any person on this board. I have never claimed nor desired such a position. In fact, in my postings to you and others, I have used phrases in reponse such as "coequals" and "as one ant to another". The role here should always be one of mutually providing insights to those seeking help. In fact, the forum is a self-help one: for in responding, one must relate their current and past condition in relation to the post to which one is responding.<P><B>Posts and intent:</B> <I>Heartpain:</I> 860 since July 12, 1999. <I>SeenTheLight:</I> 828 (counting this one) since May 20, 2001. I dare say you did not read all 828 of my posts. Just as I have not read all 860 of yours. Of the 828 posts, less than half of one percent (41 ... and that is rather high, but didn't feel it was germane enough to get the actual count, as it is the concept that is important here). Of those "41" posts, the majority were directed against two rabble-rousers. So, in making your assumptions, and feeling what you feel, you are deriving the 99.5 percent of me from that admittedly negative half percent. In the other 99.5 percent of my posts: the majority deal with trying to help others in a manner in which I try to interject an insight based on my experience and the Marriage Builders concepts. If, in the example of the 5 blind men and the elephant, if one of them touches the rectum, that does not define the whole elephant. Even in posts where I have responded in an acerbic manner, I still attempt to interject something of value (not that I always succeed). To wit: with HumbleFish, in each of the posts was a call for her to seek professional help. Not as an acerbic put-down, but as a reality-based observation of her problems and the ability of the layity of this board being able to assist her in them. Likewise, in posts previous, she was admonished to read the material here on MB, etc.<P><B>My story:</B> You are correct in that there is no single post detailing my "story". However, if one would ever want to trace all of my posts, it is there collectively. However, in summation: I had a series of Internet-related affairs, one of which was physical. I do not dismiss it blindly or otherwise. I devote significant time and energy to (a) understanding the conditions that took me into the fog and passage on the Mothership and (b) recovering from my folly. You can label that howsoever you choose. The important thing is that my wife knows (a) that I am truly cognizant, remorseful, etc. and (b) that I (we) are 100-percent dedicated to rebuilding using the Marriage Builders precepts. I think that in the overall number of posts I make to people here, that is evident.<P><B>Re wisdom/intelligence:</B> Define it as you will. Wisdom is the ability to weigh one's circumstance, evaluate it in as an unbiased a manner as possible, and then implement positive change; fundamentally: discernment. Intelligence is a genetic inheritance. Knowledge is acquired. Compassion comes from the heart and soul. As for "seeming" to want to impress with "intelligence and wisdom" ... that <I>would</I> be base and petty. Fortunately, that is not my motivation. However, I will not apologize for my genetic gifts nor for the education and experience I have amassed. As for wisdom, that is the province of the poster to discern. Many on this site offer intelligence, knowledge, compassion and their particular wisdoms as well. As each individual is unique, so too, is the blend of those traits.<P>Yes, wisdom does not come from quoting dictionaries, encyclopediae nor any other reference books. The usage of those in that handful of posts was a device ... a plot device if you will. If you go back and read it/them, that will become readily apparent. It is also a form of humor, acerbic or not. As for the other terms you cite (from one post and those related to it): again, you do an injustice, as that is not the norm. Was responding to HumbleFish or RealityCheck in an acerbic fashion wise? In the context from what I was trying to accomplish, yes. But that is <I>my</I> opinion, just as you (and others) have theirs.<P>Finally, to (mis)quote Samuel Johnson: common sense is not that common. Fundamentally, common sense is the "wisdom" we should have applied if we hadn't been thinking wrongly. So where I am now is "common-sensical"; where I was as a WS was not. Neither was I common-sensical when I was a BS. Emotion most often stands in the way of "common sense." To wit: this thread. You approach it from emotion, not from common sense. That is a human condition in us all.<P><I>True wisdom doesn't come from quoting a dictionary, an encyclopedia or any other reference book. It comes from intelligence, common sense, care for others and a thoughtful approach. You could learn a lot from him.</I><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You would do well to follow your own advice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I generally do (the 99.5/.5 split).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm sure that I will be attacked, have my intelligence questioned, receive some kind of "witty" response or somesuch nonsense for writing this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What would that accomplish, my friend? You are not a drive-by poster bent on rabble-rousing. We are trying, as we have in the past, to settle this in a spirit of comity and in a manner that preserves public and self-dignity.<P>I do wish you the best in your sabbatical, and hope we all have the benefit of hearing from you in the (very near) future. You have much to offer to the members here.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited August 01, 2001).]

Oh boy, DeWayne, how long did it take you to write all those responses anyhow? Whew, it made me tired reading it!! <P>Thank you for taking the reigns for awhile on this subject... I'm sitting here with you, you know... trying to enjoy the view... I'd stopped bringing the subject up, for fear of being tossed over the flames... not good for the spirit, and burns take a long time to heal. <P>From here on in, I will remain an "old-timer" and will follow the path begun by others before me... thank you soulloss for reminding me that it is a hard-won mantle. <P>(((((DeWayne and Susan)))))<P>I wish you peace and love, and continued healing.

Hey DeWayne,<P>It's definately safe to go back to the MEGA-THREAD!! <P>I still hang around here but I only post to a few people that I know (very few these days). I tried to leave MB one time. That lasted about a month! LOL<P>Now, I'm headed back to D/D! <P>Mitzi

HI DeWayne,<BR> I agree 100%, things have changed so much since 99!! I guess Satan finally found this place and is trying to ruin it. <BR> I just THANK GOD SOOOOOOOOO MUCH that I came here THEN, rather than NOW because I'm sure my beloved W and I would have NEVER reconciled as I would have followed "the crowd" with hate rather than love, pride rather than wisdom and anger rather than forgivness. We would have NEVER EVER survived this with the advice given here (most of the time) now. Thanks of course to you and all those who not only saved my marriage, but my LIFE too!! <BR> Good luck to all the regulars here now may you join together and find the love we all did back then. Like a family. GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"

I wanted to drop in and thank the group of o “old timers” who keep letting the newcomers know that we have nothing of value to add to this forum. <P>Threads like this one have shown up pretty regularly the entire time I’ve been on this forum. The difference here is that this one is directly attacking my H. It’s become quite clear that many “oldtimers” do not appreciate new people on this forum and that they would just as soon we all leave. The comments paint ALL newcomers with a very broad brush as having little to nothing of use to offer this forum. I, and many newcomers (some have emailed me about this) feel that they are not welcome on this board. For the entire time I have been on this forum I have been trying to not take these posts personally. Tonight I found out that I, and all newcomers, were sent here by “Satan” and that as a newcomer I am part of ‘ "the crowd" with hate rather than love, pride rather than wisdom and anger rather than forgivness.’ Now there is some true Christianity in practice. Be assured that this hurts the new people coming here for support.<P>This has been bothering me for quiet some time but I’ve never said anything about it until now. Maybe I am taking things too personally today because STL and I have been handling some terrible, heartbreaking, issues with our children this week. Maybe I’m too emotional and hurting too much to see what wonderful input I, and all newcomers, am being given here.<P>You talk about how the “oldtimers” used 2x4’s to get WS to come around. You talk about how much help you were given. The curious thing is that for all of the support STL has given others, not one person on this forum has ever asked him how he was doing. Not one person has ever tried to draw him out to find out what was going on with him. Some people do not seek help easily. The one time he tried to reach out and gave some personal info he was shot down.<P>I offer here links to two recent posts that do a wonderful job of giving advice on how to be better MB members without the writers feeling the need to put down any of the MB members and they draw on the author’s experience here at MB.<P>Orchid’s <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011171.html" TARGET=_blank><BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011171.html</A>" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011171.html[/URL]</A> <P>Husband2you’s <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011277.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011277.html</A> <P>I have been finding it very hard to particiate here for a while because of this.<BR>At this time I am not sure what my future involvement in MB will be. I have put a lot of energy into this and have gained a lot. But when it starts to hurt me emotionally then it does not add to my marital recovery. <P>Z<P>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 02, 2001).]

Heartpain, and all,<P>I feel we've all been hurt by this. MB is for the benefit of yourself and one needs to take a look at their contribution. It takes alot of time to be on here. I've learned you really need to know what is going on with that member to post correctly. I know the way I look at my marriage, myself, and these boards are completely different today than they were several months ago. I guess it is maturity. The only way to make that value contribution is to continue to come back, open your heart, and try to help someone who is in need. We've all been there, we know how that person is crumbling inside ~ just as we crumbled. I think Zor is right, there was a presence from someone we don't want here. Now that it has been recognized, we can summon our best intentions and ward it out. I think we've learned alot. We are here to get our hearts back in the right direction.<P>It is not right when people feel they have no value here - value is the effort you put in. hugs, aftershock<P>(Heartpain - thanks for openning this thread)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>I wanted to drop in and thank the group of o “old timers” who keep letting the newcomers know that we have nothing of value to add to this forum. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Er... hi. I'm sorry, but I think you are wrong. I don't think any old timer has ever alluded to nor made any insinuation that newcomers have nothing of value to add to this forum. <P>Based on my interpretation of this thread and a few others, the discontent is with a new 'attitude' that has been developing. Posts and threads that are carriers of anger, judgement and conflict and have very little to do with building marriages. People coming to this site generally are already emotionally unsettled and behaviour such as is being protested in these threads aggravates the condition and draws much needed resources away from healing and growing and instead focuses those resources into unproductive conflict.<P>I'm sorry you are having such a rough week. If you feel that folk are attacking your husband (I'm not sure <I>attack</I> is the right word) I think you may be missing the heart of the message.1<P>((((((((((((<B>Zorweb and STL</B>)))))))))))))))<P><BR>deut

deut,<BR>er... I... think zorweb was referring to this quote above - which I chose to ignore - it's someone's honest feelings - but I took it the same way zorweb did - with GREAT offense. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess Satan finally found this place and is trying to ruin it. <I>gee, thanks!!!</I><BR>I just THANK GOD SOOOOOOOOO MUCH that I came here THEN, rather than NOW because I'm sure my beloved W and I would have NEVER reconciled as I would have followed "the crowd" with hate rather than love, pride rather than wisdom and anger rather than forgivness. We would have NEVER EVER survived this with the advice given here (most of the time) now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I won't go into my opinions too much again - I have 3 posts above already that state my view clearly. I was concerned when HP first started this thread, that some very negative affects would come from it. Misery loves company - and once ONE person states a gripe or complaint - that "company" comes crawling from everywhere to jump on the "misery" band wagon. Before you know it (and here we are....) there's some very negative comments coming around that HURT the feelings of those of us who are trying to keep the integrity and value of the board. Valued old-timers who get THEIR feelings hurt will stop posting, for fear of judgment by "the great ones". THen where will THAT leave this board???<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28