Survey - Long Term marriages, marriage to OP

Marriage Builders

During the almost three years that I have been here, my overwhelming impression has been that there are almost no cases of successful rebuilding of long term marriages in cases where the WS left to go live with the OP. Perhaps I have forgotten some, but the only case I can think of is Lori's (Lostva). In many cases, the WS marries the OP, in others the affair ends. In some cases they return and then leave again, either for the first OP or another one. For those who have been in long term marriages and whose spouse moved in with the OP, did anyone's spouse return? Did they marry the OP?I am not asking whether they are happy or not - it is obvious that often they aren't, but are stuck either financially or because they feel they have burned too many bridges.

Hi - My M is a long term one (almost 31 yrs) His A is also a long term one - (10 yrs) Found out over 3 years ago - moved out and back a few times but now is living with her and my divorce is almost here - why I still hope is that everything everyone has said in this forum is true to the "T" for me too,. I would love to know the answer to your question as well - I have totally given up but a part of me (maybe the unconcious part) still doesn't believe he won't come back - I know how you feel and we do have to completely let go - but do these kinds of A's ever come out of the fog. My H seems happy with her and has all kinds of plans. Sorry you are going through this too - Carebear

Nellie,Wondering if my recent news has spawned your inquiry/poll.My H did not move in with OW, altho they shuttled back and forth from her house to his, towing the kids (3) along. They did this for 22 months after our separation. And now it seems they are to marry in approx 6 mos. I was wondering about the boards stats as well. Hope we get lots of responses.Jop.s. I'd like to also say that out of the 4 people I have been friends with on this board from day one as a member (20 mos), 3 are divorced, with the WS still with OP (1 couple engaged), and one is still struggling in pseudo recovery. Doing the math based on the stats, things are NOT adding up. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img][ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

The only marriage I know where WS actually moved n with OP did not reconcile (OP didn't last either). I read once that the chance of reconiliation drops sharply once it gets as far as move-out. I suspect that is true, tho some do make it.

We'd only been married for 2 years (ouch) when my H had his affair so my situatiuon doesn't count. But something a friend told me sticks in my mind.. My friend (male) is in the automotive business and his job is such that he often ends up having drinks/dinner with male clients. A lot of these guys are in their late 40s and 50s and on their second, third, fourth marriages. Evidently after afew drinks some of them get pretty chatty. My friend said he wishes he had a dollar for every one of them who admitted that he divorced his first wife and then said "It was the biggest mistake I ever made, she's the one I should have stayed with." Now being a guy, he doesn't ask in depth questions like "Why did you divorce her?" so we don't know how many cases involved infidelity, but I'm sure there have been afew. Just something to think about...

Hi Nellie,

My H moved out and lived with OW,not long but he did. He's back and we're reconciled.My neighbor's H moved in with his OW for 6mos....he came back and they are happy , it's been about 10 years or so.My other neighbor's H moved out , moved in with OW 800 miles away, he's back with family and they are working it out. I'm sure I'll think of others.....LU

I don't know, I was a WS and my ex was also. I've been married and with the OM now for over 5 yrs. now. My first marriage was 11 years, my husband's first marriage was 4 or 5 years. My ex is getting married to his OW some time this summer. The thing is when I and my current husband decided we wanted out of our first marriage and we left we didn't go back. I think if your going back and forth your more likely to not end up with the OP. It's hard for me to remember everything now because it has been a really long time.

Well, this is a downer post for the long term marriages. The numbers don't look too good for us. But as you know every situation is different. Wouldn't you like to be one of the ones in the lower percentage, whose marriage makes it? I would. jd

Hi again, I was thinking back on previous posters....Lori or Lostva's H moved out and in with OW, they are back together, K who's W left him is back .
Gotta run, I'll think of more.......LU

well I debated with myself over responding to this post, but I do have some observations (big surprise huh), and since I am in the midst of a long term marital breakdown (as opposed to post breakdown) may (if I am feeling brave enough) give some current thoughts.IMO the most glaring difference between breakups of long term marriages (and the likelihood of recovery) and short to mid term....is children. I would bet the statistics for marriages without children would also more closely parallel the statistics for longterm outcomes.If we remove from the mix, seriously dysfunctional marriages (major abuse, raging alcoholism, mental disease etc.)...and only focus on basically normal people, it seems safe to kinda assume they both love their kids, and are reasonably involved parents...even if you have issues with your spouse, the desire to be part of your childrens life is a powerful motivator to "settle" for the marriage you have, and bury your issues/resentments very very deep...Of course denial never really works, and as the kids get older (and more into their own lives, and mobile...up to actually moving out of home)...the focus of the marriage is forced to shift from the kids to each other, and often the marriage comes up short, then factor in this emotional vulnerability and op, and the results are inevitable, as folks make emotional connections (which is what people do) with others...and why not? Why argue with a spouse when after all these years you "know" it isn't going to change anyways...blah blah blah.If the op is actually a bonafide freind/prospect/ect (if you were single)...now what? The primary reason not to divorce is gone (the kids), you have history and if it wasn't that great, not much pull there, all that is left is 'committment" issues, and if the spouse is reacting poorly to all this.... well, it may not be fair, but humans are funny that way, we all avoid weak, wimmpy, clingy people..they feel unsafe.....So they end up going with the op, and if that seems to work, more and more pressure builds to "seek" this one shot at happiness..blah blah blah.... The only real hope for the bs (assuming the marriage is actually savable) is the op doesn't work out, and they get another crack at doing it right...plan a, counselling, etc.Factor in another more insidious consideration, especially for male ws...if your H is actually sociopathic personality, and only parked themself with you so you could take care of them, and give em kids....then your job is done, and they dump you and move on.... (of course this is a blessing if you can realize it, just make em pay, and go find someone who appreciates you)....I think this is most often the case (or at least a factor) when men leave for women more than 10 years their junior.IMO (although not all agree by any means) I also think people can be responsible and raise kids, then evaluate the marriage and realize it just is not going to "fit" for the rest of their lives, cause was duty based, and although caring is there, the rest just doesn't work...different temperaments, life expectations, whatever you want to call it....hopefully after working through the anger, and emotions, they can part amicably, with appropriate needs met, and be supportive friends... it is not uncommon to see people acknowledge they get along better, and have a better relationship as ex's then they ever did married, why I dunno, but I think it has to do with the need to fit in certain ways to maintain the intimate marital bond.Another factor is societal....the research I have read has made it clear infidelity and marital disharmony has remained pretty much consistent over historical time, but practical circumstances made divorce difficult (at least for women, who it could literally be a life or death matter for)...nowadays a woman can leave a long term marriage and expect to get employment, and/or societal support as needed, as well as legal access (with more teeth everyday) to the marital resources, and future earnings even...likewise I think this has a curious side effect on men (actually the whole feminism movement does) there has been a reduction in gender dynamics, women are no longer chattle, in need of male protection/supervision...so a man can psychologically leave a marriage outright more easily (and with less social onus) rather than maintain a mistress.Anyways, thems my 2 centslets add one more factor, mortality rates, people are living longer, if you were basically wore out, and expecting to croak by 50-55 or so, not much incentive to go through the life disruption of a divorce, if the marriage was working at all....nowadays people can expect to lead active, vibrant lives into the 80's, is a whole nother lifetime.[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ][ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

carebear,I don't know - everyone I have met in real life claims they know hardly anyone who has reconciled in these cases. I know only a few people who have been divorced, and most of those I don't know well enough to know how their first marriage ended. Resilient,I have been thinking about asking this for awhile, but, yes, your post did remind me. I was trying to think of something encouraging to post in your thread, but unfortunately I could not. Sometimes I think that the whole bit about recovery rates is vastly overstated, though I think it is true from what I have seen here that the success rate for relationships that begin as affairs is pretty low.kam,I have read that too - but I have never been able to understand the "once it gets as far as" part, because in so many cases that is the first notice that the BS has that the WS is even thinking of leaving. "Once it gets as far as" would imply that this was a reasoned decision that came after lengthy discussion. In my case, it was less than 24 hours between the time my H announced he wanted a divorce and when he left - and the announcement came about 12 hours after we had offered on house that we were interested in buying.fairydust,I agree that many WS's regret their decisions, but that is of little help to the family they left behind. My H once said, in a slightly different context, "you know that I hate to sleep alone," and that pretty much sums it up.Lu,It's encouraging to read that. Most of my neighbors are in long-term (like going on 40 year) marriages - I know only a handful of people who have ever been divorced or separated, much less reconciled. I probably know more people with kids who have never been married than I do people with kids who are divorced. BonnieSept,Interestingly, I can't remember too many other cases on these boards where the woman ended up marrying the OP and having it last any length of time. jdmac,Yes, of course I would, but sometimes I think that false hope was worse than none at all, and decisions made on that basis rather than on the basis of getting the best financial settlement for the kids destroyed any hope of a decent life for the kids and me. I think in many ways it would be better to file or counter-file immediately on the grounds of adultery and fight as hard as you can - that the only thing you can hope to get out of it is enough money to support your kids and to protect them from exposure to the OP as long as possible, and any factors that interfere with those goals should be ignored. Lu,Do you remember if K's wife actually moved in with the OP? Sometimes I wonder if a large contributing factor to Lori's success was that the OP in that case was a complete fruitcake (or some other pastry [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ), as opposed to just a selfish, desparate woman.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I have read that too - but I have never been able to understand the "once it gets as far as" part, because in so many cases that is the first notice that the BS has that the WS is even thinking of leaving. <hr></blockquote>I think they mean "as far as that" in the WS mind...that they (in many cases) have already worked thru any ambivalence, and made up their mind on their own. Obviously, it would be MUCH better if communication was good enough that they discuss the problems/issues and decision-process with their partner before they get to that point, but I think often the WS is too conflict-avoiding to do so. It does seem that once they move in with OP it is a "shut door" for many (not all) and so many are not willing to give marriage a chance, even if/when the affair loses its bloom. At least that's what happened with my FIL...he simply started a new affair on the OW...Yuck.Kathi[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]

Hi all, I will let Sis(Lori) know you are talking about her and maybe she will have some time to respond, but in case she doesn't....PT was cold, shrewd and calculating well beyond her years.(Excluding the dinner incident where she got her nickname) She knew exactly which buttons to push on Robert. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Sometimes I wonder if a large contributing factor to Lori's success was that the OP in that case was a complete fruitcake (or some other pastry ... as opposed to just a selfish, desparate woman<hr></blockquote>You wonder wrong and this statement does injustice to Lori's strength and hardwork and Robert's character and true feelings for his wife...

Hi Nellie, I think the pastry was a poptart, right?!!!Anyway, wonder if you would have more response on the Recovery board ?. I know alot of people have reconciled but I'm not sure if they were separated previously.One other story and I am really NOT making this up!.....a family friend's father left the family for an OW , divorced W, married OW , 6yrs.later divorced the OW and remarried W. Everyone was mad that she(W) took him back but they spent many more years together,happily, until he died.The W then married an old family friend! LU

That's right, LuLu. It was Poptarts. PT earned her nick-name because one evening somehow Lori had disovered that PT (Poptart) was wanting to make Robert Poptarts and Bacon for dinner. LOL ..... yuuuuuum YUM!An OW culinary specialty ..... LMAO

Heartpain,I know that Lori worked very hard, and I am not casting aspersions on her efforts - I was trying to make the point that the OW in that case was not a "normal" OW, if there is such a thing, but one who seemed to be far more out of control, as well as violent, than many.Lu,I believe you that you are not making up these success stories - I just wish I had ever heard any in real life. My sister claims she knows of one reconciliation among the scores of people she knows who are divorced. I have never in my life met anyone whom I know for a fact had an affair, except for my H and my former brother-in-law.Kam,It has occurred to me that if I were the OW, I would be very worried about the fact that he has been unemployed for so long and is apparently home all day, with nothing to do but play on the computer - especially since that is how she met him.

My husband was involved in his affair while we were at two separate duty stations--he was viirtually free of any observations on my part. He came and went as a bachelor. He and his girlfriend stayed together at his temporary apartment together. She left her husband and moved out into her "own" place, meaning to staywith my husband on weekends. Ultimately, they were to move in together when the smoke cleared (after the divorces were final, not like that should really matter considering their conduct.) He was building up a household, bought all new appliances and furniture, stereo, tv, even a piano for her. At that point, he chickened out of the arrangement and asked me to reconcile on practically a whim (and I had not a freakin clue all this was even going on the whole time--imagine that!)So all of his stuff--their love nest stuff--has been sitting in storage for the last three years and will probably sit there for another three, if not longer. How sad for them.Anyways, I don't know, I haven't heard about any reconcilations after the WS moves out and then in with OP. I think that's very rare, actually.I have a friend who's parents were just remarried after about 20 years apart--they were married to other people in the meantime, but I don't think that their divorce was the result of infidelity.You know what sucks even worse? I have heard of WS-OP marriage that have been lasting, loving relationships--no such thing as karma, huh?My across the street neighbors when I was a kid--she raised her kids, both my friends, to their teenage years then went back to work, got her real estate license. She then met the ugliest and richest little man in town--a fellow real estate guy. She dumped her husband of twenty years for him and they became engaged. The kids were devestated--and they weren't little kids that were easy to lie to. They were nearly grown but not out of the house. They both refused to speak to her--but that didn't stop her.As for the husband, I have never seen a man so heartbroken in my entire life--he loved her so much. He was a rustic old cowboy, pretty nice looking, and the strong silent type. A lot of girls would give their right arm to hook up with a guy like him. He was so sad. He moved out to a little cabin on the river and lives there to this day--alone. Still devestated, still pining for her.And she--well, she and her real estate agent have built a huge and successful enterprise in what used to be our little town. They are insanely wealthy and still happily together.The kids--they grew tired of their father's moping and moved in with the real estate moguls before they both went out on their own and married. They feel sorry for their father but don't really associate with him anymore--he's a hermit, and their stepfather is more fun. He takes them skiing, hunting, boating. So, anyways, where is justice? I hope it's somewhere, and not just and idea.

My husband and I will be celebrating our 25th Anniversary in April and renewing our vows and he moved in with the other woman 6 times.Although I would not recomend that anyone else does what I did, we are very happy again. My husband and kids father is back and I'm happy to say things are way better than they were before the affair.It was a crazy time, but lessons were learned and I have no regrets.Lilly

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
 the only case I can think of is Lori's (Lostva). In many cases, the WS marries the OP<hr></blockquote>Hi, Nellie,
I just wanted to add another name in the (apparently) short list of folks who succeeded in fixing their M's after WS moved in with OP.Another is Frank, AKA "PLEASEHELP" screen name on the boards. His W left him, lived w/OM, and was gone for (I think ) over 16 months, and even married OM for a brief time. Then D him and returned and she and Frank have been in recovery since then. As far as "real life" cases, I know my neice's IL's were "separated" for awhile, becasue of an A on his part. Since it's obviously a painful part of their history, NO ONE in their family talks about it much. My neice simply told me what she knew (that's it above!) to "comfort" me about her uncle (my WH).Hope this helps! Keep your chin up. I am mine!!! I am trusting GOD to do the impossible. Statistics, other cases, etc. have NO place in His society! He DELIGHTS in doing the IMPOSSIBLE!! That's where my hope is grounded.God Bless,

Bernzini,That story really reaffirms my belief that in many cases, it really is all about money. If you have it, you can buy what you want - including a husband. That is what my H's OW did. That is what Jill's husband's OW did. When you said that the stepfather was more "fun" I assume "fun" meant really that he could afford to take them skiing, etc. And no, before my H left, money was not that important to me. I'm certainly not one to care one whit about keeping up with the Joneses, and as long as we had enough money to take care of and educate the kids, maybe go on vacation every 4 years or so, I was satisfied. After my H left, he admitted that he "couldn't separate his feelings about me from his feelings about our financial situation" - he'd gone into business for himself, which we had to give up because we weren't making enough money to support the family, our daughter had just started college, and our financial future wasn't too bright, but we weren't starving. Lilly,I am glad to hear that once in awhile reconciliation happens.Sometimes I feel like I was mislead by the Harley statistics and by the "most affairs die within 2 years" stuff that is oft quoted. People have criticized the book "Sudden Endings" but the scenarios described therein are far more typical of the experiences of people whose spouses, suddenly move out after long-term marriages. Some psychologists believe that virtually all such affairs are a consequence of depression, one of the symptoms of which, btw, is feeling like too much of your money is being unjustifiably spent on others. Marriage builder principles are great when you are talking about mentally healthy people, but depression is a whole different ball game.

Nellie, you made me laugh!! I still love the PT thread! I couldn't even LOOK at a Poptart for more than a year without bursting into fits of giggles. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] In fact, when Frank (PLEASE HELP) came to visit Robert and I, I met him at the airport with a box of strawberry ones held high so he'd know who I was!!! I was gonna mention him and Harriet, but someone else did. I have another one, though. Robert's sister and her h divorced due to infidelity and stayed apart for more than five years. They both had long-term relationships during that time (and, yes, one was with the OP/soulmate - more than four years) and then "happened" upon each other one day. Well, they talked, dated for six months and remarried and have been happily married ever since (close to 10 years now, I think). Never SEEN a happier couple! She says it's because they both learned some big lessons, did some serious personal growth and know better how to take care of a marriage now. It's done well through a few tragedies, so I think they've got the hang of it this time.I know there are others from wayyyyy back when I was lurking and then posting hard, but I'm having a hard time remembering them. Once Robert and I reconciled, and starting appearing places together again (remember, he took PT everywhere he went), folks started talking a bit. I was amazed at the number of people who had, at one point, separated and reconciled for years into solid marriages. Seems like more folks go through it than I ever realized and just don't talk about it.Yup, DeWayne (and the other requestors) maybe it's time for an update. I'll get to it soon, I promise. Gotta run! Love,Lori

Alright, this is my third try at getting this message posted, obviously I am usually just an occasional lurker. But, for all you people out there I want to remind you that yes there is hope. My WS and I were separated for two years, he lived with OW for first three months and then continued to see her. NC was condition of reconcilliaton. (boy is this the shortened version) anyway, I think I was doing my own version of Plan A, as this was five years ago now and I'm not even sure MB was online and I didn't have internet anyway. So there is hope, we are very happy now, I like this version of our marriage alot better than the old one. I have five friends that this same thing (or similar) has happened to, and they are all happily reconciled. So there is hope, and I promise you that whether you reconcile or not, the pain will pass and you will be happy. Just being here and reading these stories brings the feelings back to me and I know it is horrible. Please hang in there and know that no matter what, it WILL get better. My thoughts, tears, prayers for you all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
Sometimes I feel like I was mislead by the Harley statistics and by the "most affairs die within 2 years" stuff that is oft quoted. <hr></blockquote>I agree with you here. Not so much about the fact that *most* affairs DO END AFTER TWO YEARS, because I really do think most do, but about the "mislead" part that gave you (and others) an unrealistic hope. I've said many times that I think the concepts here are fabulous for building a solid marriage, and sometimes for REbuilding after infidelity. But I also think you're right about the **kind** of people who will respond to the Plans. <blockquote>quote:<hr>People have criticized the book "Sudden Endings" but the scenarios described therein are far more typical of the experiences of people whose spouses, suddenly move out after long-term marriages. Some psychologists believe that virtually all such affairs are a consequence of depression, one of the symptoms of which, btw, is feeling like too much of your money is being unjustifiably spent on others. Marriage builder principles are great when you are talking about mentally healthy people, but depression is a whole different ball game.<hr></blockquote>ALL MENTAL ILLNESS change the ball game, as do addictions (alcohol, drugs, sex). As I was reading along here, of course I thought of so many friends I've met here, like Lori and Frank who have AMAZING successes despite some pretty big odds... and others, who I won't name (there are SO MANY) who are still with their spouses, and still struggle to rebuild, sometimes alone, and then that GREAT BIG divorce group to which you and I have both belonged, Nellie. And among the divorce group there are those who did the filing and those who were filed against. Yet another divide. If I've learned anything over the last three years it is that life throws some nasty curves, and we ALL are just doing the best we can to survive. Time isn't the great healer, not by a long shot. Time keeps on going, and you will heal -- or not -- it depends on a lot of things. I guess I just wanted to say that even I, the obnoxious MB-spouter who has loved this place and stood by the concepts, is realizing that the world does not begin and end with MB. I think they have some super ideas and when you're dealing with healthy partners who BOTH WANT TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE (because even those who succeed eventually have BOTH working at it)... it is TRULY WONDERFUL. But when you are ALONE, and one partner cannot commit, for whatever reason, it falls a little short - or a lot short. I will continue to use what I've learned on my current marriage, because I believe in it. I pray to God that my H, or me, for that matter, never gives the other a reason to have to try to "win back" the marriage-- I don't ever want to go through that again. This is where I think the concepts shine -- BEFORE THERE IS A PROBLEM.Okay, off my soapbox.Nice talking to you Nellie, and you take care.Lori, let me know when you write that update -- don't want to miss it.DeWayne - I have tried to contact you several times over the months. The email I have is no good. Please write me.

lupolady,Yes, I had forgotten about Frank. Unfortunately, the list is far too short.Lori,Nice to hear from you. I wish I personally knew even one couple who had reconciled after an affair in real life, much less after leaving to go live with the OW. Of course since I know only a handful of people who are divorced, I suppose that isn't so surprising.Rella,I have been told that time heals, but I had not found that to be the case - my H has been gone for three years, and it has not gotten better. Sheryl,As you know, I have long maintained that mental illness is at the root of many, probably most, affairs in long-term marriages - and I would put addictions under the heading of mental illness. And you are right about time. snl,Somehow I missed your post before. One could also look at it from the opposite perspective - that the empty nest triggers depression in the WS, which leads to the affair.I am convinced that loss and fear of loss had a lot to do with my H's depression. My spouse's depression and affair began shortly after he had to give up his business that he was very attached to, as our oldest was going off to college, and most importantly right after a young relative of mine was murdered - but one could hardly claim he left because his child-rearing days were over, as we have six kids, the youngest of whom was only two at the time.

I think at the beginning of this thread it said something about long term marriages, I haven't seen any numbers indicating years.I do however seen in our signature lines that many of us have been married the 17-24 years and some even longer when the A happens or D day is.I do wonder what it is that causes problems in that time frame of a marriage? Any insights or thoughts? I now my WH turned 40 and is having a MLC that he denies. I know that WH has filed DV papers so that he can marry OW, his soulmate and HS Sweetart.
Just wondering, Dawn[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: daybreak ]

daybreak,My H left just after our 19th anniversary, when he was 49.

Hi All--
My H left in Aug and I found out about the OW 2 weeks later ( he still denies that anything happened until after he left)....anyway we would have been married 20 yrs last Oct.....this is such a disappointment. We have been together and he been my best friend for over 22 yrs. The stats that I have been reading...they upset me! I know that I have to move along with this divorce...and I am....but there is always the thought that he will WAKE up and come home. He had the OW transfered to his office (1200 miles!) and she moved her 7 yr old here....she bought a brand new gigantic house and my H lives with her....he seems to have forgotten the part about morals and teenagers and how he promised me we would be sitting in rocking chairs together on a front porch.....okay..sorry... a little venting...I am also not having the greatest day. You would think after 7 months the shock would wear off! I would love to hear some more positive stories! (PLEASE!)
MAX

Nellie, I am sooo glad you asked this questions and have felt somewhat more hopeful since reading some of these responses. I too have known some people who have left after discovery of their A and who one to two years later returned to their spouse - usually it happened after the spouse really moved on - and it happens almost as if one minute they were convinced they would stay with the OP and the next they were calling their spouse to talk about getting back together. In my case I don't think this will happen and if it does I doubt I will be wanting to reconcile - but who knows - I do know that I am finally SURE that whatever happens was meant to and that I will find out, hopefully soon, why this has happened to me! Thank you so much all of you who responded to this survey - I know it has lifted the hearts of many.
On a completely different note - the person who posted as "rella" - I would be interested to know if this is your name and if so could you e-mail me or let me know how to get in touch with you. Thanks. CarebearMarried almost 31 yrs.
three adult children
H had several affairs - this one
has lasted many years
found out 3 years ago - divorce is
almost final

Carebear, Rella is a nickname and I'm pretty new to posting, how do I find out your email?

Rella - I don't know how you can e-mail me - I'm new to this too - anyone out there know?

Max,I don't think that it ever wears off - especially when they keep twisting the knife - I don't feel any better than I did three years ago.Carebear,I am glad you found some encouragement here. I just wish it were a higher percentage.

Hi again, I think you are not seeing more stories because alot of people , reconcile and then don't post again. I know there are many times I think I just need to quit reading here, it can be very upsetting and send me back to the bad times".If you spend any time reading on the "Other Woman" board, www.gloryb.com the general consensus of everyone there is MOST MM do NOT leave their Wives and if they do, they end up back with them.There are a few "success stories" (as they call them) but few and far between. LU

I truly hope that my H's new relationship is not a "sucess story" fot the OW board! I still van't believe that I have to be in the small percentage of marriages where the H totally leaves and starts a new life! It's nuts!!! Have a good day everyone!!
MAX

I agree with Nellie. In my personal observation on this board and in my life during the last three years, once someone leaves and moves in with someone else, the odds of coming back are slim. In fact, once there is a separation of any kind, the odds are not in favor of reconciliation. I suspect the MB techiques do help to increase the odds, probably materially. It may bring it up from a 5% chance to a 15%, at least that's my guess.The main point of this is not whether you should or shouldn't make an effort, but rather one of creating false expectations, often based on denial. If most people entering these boards came in believing that the odds were against them, they would make different decisions, and I believe get over their grieving more quickly. That's the problem with false hope. It keeps people actively working on a marriage that exists on paper only (when the spouse is living with an OP), rather than focusing on building a new life. Waiting for someone else to do something is an infinitely depressing state to be in, and I don't believe healthy psychologically.In my e-mail group of six (starting back in 1998), five are divorced and one is in process. Every one of us worked it hard.Unfortunately, although I don't think their intentions are bad, the Harley's create false hope with the statistic that says few affairs survive the two year mark. MANY DO, and even when they don't, often so much damage is done that the wayward doesn't come back or falls into another affair. It's the reality I've seen.

I don't really know what the statistics say, but I can tell you that we are rebuilding, successfully I hope.We had been married for 20 years when I found out about my WH A, it was a long term A, 4 yrs. He was 39 when it started, she was 21. The day I found out, he moved out, to an apt. he had been renting for the past 4 months. He did not move in with OW, she lives in another province and wouldn't move back here and he wouldn't move out there.We were separated for 8 months and then he moved back in. He sat on the fence for another 7 months, until we figured out because of other behaviors, that he had a sex addiction. He attended meetings, started no contact and we've never been happier. He tells me all the time that he appreciates how much I love him, that he's sorry he's betrayed my trust. He's told me that one of the things that brought him back was the realization that of all the people in the world, I was the one who loved him the most.I just wanted to say that yes, it can happen, they can come back. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Lu,I'm quite certain that many men have affairs, often multiple, and don't leave their wives, and are therefore not gloryb "success stories." (yuk).
But I think a lot of those men are of the "cakeman" sort, or those who feel "entitled" to have affairs. I suspect those who have affairs as a consequence of depression, who want others to make decisions for them, are the sort who are likely to immediately move in with the OW and then accept the OW's direction, divorcing when she insists upon it, ignoring his children when she directs him to. Distressed,I think you are likely correct that the Harley's two year time frame is largely imaginary. I doubt that in my case it would make any difference in grieving, because it has become obvious to me that this is not something I will ever recover from, but it might have made a difference in decisions I made - I regret not making all decisions from the point of view of what would most benefit my children financially. Obviously treating my H with love and care has only allowed him, and more importantly the OW, to walk all over us.

Max,I wish I really believed it was a small percentage.luvmydogs2,I wonder how significant it was that he was not willing to move to where she was, or vice versa. I think in many cases the WS who immediately moves in with the OW is willing to do whatever she says. Certainly my H was willing to give up spending much time with his kids because they annoyed her - he came right out and said so.

Nellie, do you still believe your XH has NPD?From reading your posts and links I found my XH was defined. If you still believe NPD exists, then this MB stuff is out the door. Plan A is the worst possible way to handle yourself when dealing with this type of person. Our H's were about the same age, depressed, experienced failure, financial issues, deliberately searched the net for our replacements, disassociated from previous life, and mine married OW 10/21/99. And, you have written tons more that mirrors my XH.In any case, I have not found much on the subject of a NPD person returning to a marriage. I don't even know if it could happen since we don't exist in their mind.I'd say that the OP would have to be "normal" and not desperate like the OWs both of our H's selected for that marriage to end. Even if the marriage ends, then I wonder if the NPD person will even think about the other world as a viable option.In any case, just wondering where you were with your NPD research and if you still believe it applies to your XH.IS

What is NPD, and what are the symptoms .... how do you diagnose.Also, my x-H aknowledged my existence ALOT (I love you and I miss you) but proceeded full force on the Divorce regardles, but with, of course, the OW at the Helm BIG TIME.Jo[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Private Lies
by Frank PittmanInfidelity - From Romance to RemarriageAll logic would dictate that second marriages should be more successful than first. The choices are being made by people that are sadder, but wiser, more mature, more experienced and more cautious. They know themselves better. They should be better able to handle disappointment and frustration. They should have sowed their wild oats, and come to see life as less distractingly mysterious. They should be readier to settle down.It may be that second marriages in general do have advantages over first marriages. Those that have been widowed, those that have been divorced for years, often seem to have success with second marriages. It may be that the disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop in between. There is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wreaking affiars. It is possible for them to work, but it is unlikely they will do so. In my practice, while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only a fourth marry the affairee. Even then, three-fourths of those romantic marriages end up divorced. There is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years than that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Triangles
by Lana Staheli(typist note: Gawd I detest typing the name LANA)RemarriageRemarriages do not turn out to be happier than first marriages. In fact, there is very little difference in the degree of happiness or unhappiness from one marriage to the next. However, remarriages are much less stable than first marriages. Ex-wives and ex-husbands who know the affair occured prior to their divorce carry a lifetime of resentment and hostility toward the new spouse, making the new marriage even more difficult.While affairees believe their love will conquer all of life's challenges, the duration of affairee-remarriages is short and long-term divorce rate is over 75%.[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

jo...Infidelity - From Romance to Remarriagequoting Frank Pittmanfrank...All logic would dictate that second marriages should be more successful than first. The choices are being made by people that are sadder, but wiser, more mature, more experienced and more cautious. They know themselves better. They should be better able to handle disappointment and frustration. They should have sowed their wild oats, and come to see life as less distractingly mysterious. They should be readier to settle down.snl...This comes up from time to time, but it is based on false assumptions, that being everyone involved in a marital failure has learned something...if that were true we'd have no one drinking and driving a second time, no one abusing a spouse after being arrested once, no one doing drugs again (after whatever), no one riding without a seatbelt after an accident...and so forth and so on...the notion that an experience automatically increases ones life skills is false. If we could pass everyone (married, or even in any committed relationship) through a filter which winnows out those who haven't learned anything from the experience, and then track the rest in second marriages/relationships we would find a higher success rate than first marriages, we would have to, cause by definition they are now more skilled at making such a choice. fp...It may be that second marriages in general do have advantages over first marriages. snl..absolutely.fp...Those that have been widowed, those that have been divorced for years, often seem to have success with second marriages. snl..I would have to see actual studies, I doubt it (for widowed/er), long term divorced fall into the whether they learned anything group, but the fact that they allowed time to heal, and absorb their lessons suggest they are more likely to choose better. Should be roughly the same as first marriages (widowed/er), maybe greater as they age, but that is offset by the pool of available mates (more who will have been married earlier in life), many of who are chronically dysfunctional, which is why they are divorced and available. The widow/er has not gained much insight into how a to choose a mate, but they do have (maybe) a history of living something that worked and that helps.fp...It may be that the disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop in between. snl..That's for sure.fp...There is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wreaking affiars. It is possible for them to work, but it is unlikely they will do so.snl...It is a complex life experience for everyone involved (infidelity), can be a tremendous learning experience....human bonding is difficult and fraught with opportunity to err. Infidelity leads to many outcomes, the necessary triggering event to restore a marriage which otherwise would never have moved off dead center....an opportunity to wake up, realize you choose folks with particular kinds of personality disorders and work on yourself to break that cycle, used as a means to escape an abusive marriage (then you can start healing, hopefully), occassionally leads to a stable nurturing second marriage,....IMO the those who just try to categorize affairs as a "thing" and then lable it as bad, and react accordingly, do not understand affairs are an integral part of human behaviour for many complex and healthy (from a species standpoint) reasons. It true many "disasters" that befall human beings are blessings in disguise, if you view them as a life experience and something to be learned from, not rejected outright.fp...In my practice, while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only a fourth marry the affairee. snl...That makes sense, if marriages are often entered irresponsibly by people who have not done effective pre-marital assessments (which is probably true for most for several reasons), then it stands to reason affairs would fail just as often, for the same reasons, even moreso cause is even harder to apply proper effort to assessing, and are more likely then to be less stable.fp...Even then, three-fourths of those romantic marriages end up divorced. There is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years than that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.snl...Yes, for the reasons above, and if you have some history and kids (which are a pressure to make something work with a particular individual) with someone else, they may look like the best practical choice as the affair marriage fails (for the same reason 1st marriages fail)...I do think such outcomes have little to do with love though, and are essentially settleings, accomodations, a means of finding stability without searching anymore....hopefully the "experience" means the two will work at the remarriage, protect it (as one must in a settled marriage) and live out rest of lives at least reasonably secure, and content... oftentimes I suspect it is the best we can do in life.jo, quoting Lan* something.....Remarriages do not turn out to be happier than first marriages. In fact, there is very little difference in the degree of happiness or unhappiness from one marriage to the next.snl..Not sure of context, but if she is saying all marriages only vary slightly in happiness she is out of her mind. If she is saying little difference in range of happiness of 1st vs 2nd marriages I would agree, cause they are created by the same human beings for the same reasons, to bond and not be alone.ls...However, remarriages are much less stable than first marriages. Ex-wives and ex-husbands who know the affair occured prior to their divorce carry a lifetime of resentment and hostility toward the new spouse, making the new marriage even more difficult.snl..I disagree (for reasons allready stated above) about stability...if it were true, no second marriage would work, since many do, it is why some do vs why others don't, the reasons for failure are exactly the same whether 1st or 2nd marriage. The implication of this whole mindset is that one should not leave a first marriage, cause the 2nd will be no better, and you have all that pain and bad consequence as well, this is of course nonesense, and suggests no one should never divorce....we know divorce is an integral part of life and personal growth, because marriage often does not work for many reasons...so what does one do? Just become a nun or monk? Or does one just accept they are "property" of another and must live their entire life that way cause they can never expect life to work any better...that is nonsensical, and not borne out by what we all inherently know about being human.ls...While affairees believe their love will conquer all of life's challenges, the duration of affairee-remarriages is short and long-term divorce rate is over 75%.snl..Anyone, first marriage, 2nd marriage, affair, who thinks love will "fix" who they are, who their spouse is, is doomed for sure. That is the FIRST lesson one needs to learn. The second is that we use the word love way too loosely, and is often not love at all but various flavors of dependentcy or control.[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ][ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

I just want to preface this w/ the fact that I am extremely HORMONAL.... I just love, SnL, how you can argue w/ those who have done anecdotal, qualitative and quantitative research... not only argue... but state out and out that they are wrong...WRONG!!!of course, I shouldn't be surprised... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] You can argue 'fit' till the cows come home (and I don't own any...so it will be a LOOONNNGGG time), but in the end the reason a marriage doesn't work is because one or both persons won't allow it to... they allow themselves NOT to fit... they allow themselves to close off and shut down. They don't live in the spirit of love... They make it all about themselves and continue to look inward instead of outward... They are more concerned w/ themselves and their happiness instead of living as God has instructed us to... SELFISH>>> SELFISH>>>> SELFISH>>>>I could go on... but I know it will only open me up to another one of your long-winded, close-minded replies....Hugs,
Cali

Your Hormones ROCK, Cali!Have Lora on the phone and read your SnL reply to her, she agrees..... YOU ROCK!Lora says SnL could argue with a deadman, and Lora is hormone-free.Ha Ha on you SnL!Jo[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

No applause... just throw Midol... LOL... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Cali

Actually Cali,I would like to hear more, but don't want you and snl to get into it so e mail with it if you want. I had a long discussion with WH tonight along about the same line as you just wrote.But it does look like I will be in the stats that are divorced and WH marries OW....UGH that just bites!!!Dawn [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Most of what I believe is Biblical... but also comes from don Miguel Ruiz... The Four Agreements and The Mastery of Love .http://www.miguelruiz.com/articles/article-miguel-artofloving.htm <blockquote>quote:<hr>
The Art of Lovingby don Miguel RuizI ask you all, what does it mean to be a lover? Basically it means one who makes love. And a lover is the one who creates love. When you eat, you make love. When you walk, you make love. When you speak, you make love. Any activity is making love. Everything is about making love. Then I bet that most of you do not even know you can be lovers in this way. The times that you have made love it was without awareness. What I am calling a lover is not exactly a lover the way most of you understand me. You can be a lover without sex. It's about being in love in every moment, for no reason at all. On the other hand, you can call someone your lover when that person treats you poorly, gives you his or her anger, their jealousy, their drama. Is that really a lover? No, that person is not a lover. A lover is someone who gives you love, not his or her garbage. Now the question is, are you a lover? What is it that you give to your partner? Do you own your partner? Do you want to enslave your partner, to control your partner? Is that really love? Are you really a lover? I don't think so. But it's not your fault, because you never really learned to be a lover. You learned to be the way you are from everyone else before you. It is important to understand this: you cannot give to another what you do not possess yourself. If you do not have love, how can you pretend to give love? What most people call love is need. Need for companionship, need for sex, need to be needed. We want someone who needs us. We do not want to be alone. If someone needs us, we can justify our existence. My children need me. My parents need me. My beloved needs me. My dog needs me. And that's what we call love. Well, this is not love. Even worse, if someone is sending you love, your belief system can distort everything they are sending to you. As a result, what you reflect back to them is not love, but your emotional poison and fear. And that fear and emotional poison comes out because that is what the belief system eats. When you eat love, the false beliefs have to die. By loving, you are cleaning your belief system. Then as a mirror you become more and more clear. When that happens you can reflect love clearly and love makes everyone and everything beautiful. When you are making love, your soul is eating love. We need to take the risk to be in love again. It's time to start a brand new romantic relationship with yourself. The challenge is for you to treat yourself better than you would treat any lover in your life. Fall in love with yourself and love yourself unconditionally. I want you to imagine how different your life would be if you loved yourself so much, that you never rejected yourself again. The problem is we reject ourselves for nothing. We create the whole drama of our lives for nothing. We do not enjoy our life because we believe that we don't deserve to be happy. That we don't deserve love. That love hurts. But this is not the truth. Love gives you the most pleasure ever. Because you, the real you, your Spirit, your soul, eats love. Imagine that the love that you feel for yourself, is so strong and so powerful, that you never disrespect yourself again. You love yourself so much, you honor yourself in everything you do, and in everything that you think and say. And in everything you create! You love yourself so much that every activity of your life becomes a ritual of love. In every bite that you eat, you enjoy the smell, texture and flavor. Imagine that you love yourself so much that your entire life is about giving yourself all the pleasure in the universe. That you know that you are here to enjoy every moment, every second of your life. Imagine you love yourself so much, that you trust yourself completely. The love that you have for yourself is so big, that it is coming out of you, through your eyes, through the manifestation of everything that your do in your life. You see everything through the eyes of love. And you perceive things the way they are, not the way you want them to be. Without distorting anything. You love yourself so much, you know creating conflict with another person will hurt you as well. You love yourself so much, that you want to enjoy the ones that you love. You want to love every interaction with your parents or your brother or sister. You want to love every moment with each one of your children, with each one of your friends. Your love is so strong that when you have a romantic relationship, and you make love, you know that you are making love with yourself through the other person who is with you. You know they are a mirror for you the human, and you the divine. Whatever you send to your partner, will be reflected back to you, because they are a mirror. The more love you give, more of the real you (love) returns back to you. Imagine you no longer have to live your life with resentments. With guilt, shame, or blame. You don't even have the need to forgive, because you don't take anything personally any more. I want you to imagine that you can say yes when you want to say yes and you say no when you want to say no. And it's nothing personal. I want you to imagine that when you love yourself so much, there is no way that you will ever accept anyone's disrespect, or dishonor. You would never allow anyone to touch your body without love. I want you to imagine how different the dream of your life could be if you loved yourself unconditionally. Imagine that you no longer need anyone to tell you how good or bad, or right or wrong you are. You can trust the voice of your spirit, and live your life with integrity. Is there any reason why you shouldn't start a brand new relationship with yourself? Will your belief system allow you to take the risk? I want you to open your heart and take the risk right now. I want you to feel all that love for yourself. Don't believe yourself when you say that love makes you vulnerable. It's not true. Love makes you strong. The voice of your integrity comes right out and lets people know that it's not okay to mistreat you. And you can communicate this without anger, even with a smile on your face. Take the risk. Love is food for your soul. Enjoy! Now let's talk for a minute about relationships with others. Some of my apprentices have asked me "Miguel, how come I never can find a good man/woman? They always turn out to be losers." Well. I tell them, there are two kinds of humans. The ones who are like bees, and the ones who are like flies. The ones like flies, they're searching for garbage. They are searching for poo. They are poo-eaters. The bees, they look for nectar. They go into the most beautiful flowers, and they drink the nectar and create honey. Then nectar attracts bees and poo attracts flies. If we understand that, then we can have awareness in our relationships. If someone is trying to control you with jealousy obviously that person is a fly, a garbage eater. If someone respects you the way you are and treats you with honor, they are obviously a bee looking for nectar. Then when you go into a relationship, what are you looking for? Are you are looking for nectar, or you are looking for drama and emotional garbage? Are you needy for someone to send all your poison and anger to? Are you needy for someone to send your opinions to so you can make them miserable? If you are doing that, you are a fly. If you are a bee, then you are looking for joy, happiness, and love,. You want to have fun and to enjoy life. You are not looking to control others. If poo is what you are offering, only flies will come to you. Don't expect bees to come around! When you interact with people cursing, unhappy, with anger and envy, with all those addictions, you only will attract flies. Then you cannot blame the flies, because you are attracting them! But if what you have is nectar, everyone will want to be near you.flies and bees, but you don't have to accept the flies. You can see they are flies. Flies can go for nectar but really they are looking to turn nectar into poo! They don't appreciate the nectar. It's about having awareness and making choices. You need to see things the way they are, not the way you want or wish them to be. You make the choice to date a fly. You make the choice to act like poo! In order to go and have a successful relationship outside of yourself, first you need to clean up your beliefs and emotional garbage. You can only give to another what you have inside yourself. If you squeeze an orange, you get orange juice. If you squeeze a human made of emotional poison, guess what you get? Then, if you have poo inside you, guess what you will put out. It is time to be your true self. You don't have to pretend to be what you are not. What is important is that you present your integrity to the world. What you project is what they will perceive. I am going to give you all some homework. What I would like you to do is to fill the bathtub and take a bath. Pretend the bathtub is filled not with water, but with love. Imagine you are just floating in a sea of love. Now get a little washcloth, and we will create a ritual with it. I want you to imagine that you can remove all your emotional poison with the washcloth in this ritual. Wet the cloth and rub it lovingly from your head to your toes, letting it absorb all the poo and everything you have done that has gone against yourself. It's about forgiveness. Now rinse the cloth in the bath filled with love and use the cloth to rub the love all over yourself. Cover yourself in love. This is the night of your honeymoon with yourself. You will make love with yourself tonight. To make love means to create. You will create love for yourself tonight. By doing that, it's a ritual that is purifying you. It's a cleansing. After this ritual you will feel clean and pure. After the ritual you will deserve to be loved by you. Can you do it? Lastly, you need to rediscover yourself. There are so many possibilities that exist within the relationship you have with yourself. You just have to choose. Then this is the first step, the re-encounter with yourself. The beginning of the new romance. Start practicing and practicing all that love for yourself. As a result of your self-love, all of your outside relationships will transform automatically. Practice treating yourself like the best lover you have ever had. Give yourself the best, treat your body the best you can. Give yourself massages, whatever, to look and feel beautiful for yourself. Do it just because it makes you feel good. It's not about competing with anyone else in the world for a partner anymore. It's not about pleasing anyone else anymore. It's about treating yourself. Give your body the best food you can and the foods you enjoy. It's about giving yourself all the comfort you can. Even the luxury, why not? You deserve it. You work so hard, take care of yourself. Give your body what your body needs. And give your mind what your mind needs. But most of all give your soul what your soul needs. And what it needs is you, which is love. Live your life in total romance!
<hr></blockquote> Just want to reiterate that YOU is NOT the selfish YOU, but the giving YOU. CHANGE STARTS W/ YOU... When you start to walk in love and act in love, it is difficult for those around you NOT to respond... this is about setting LOVING boundaries not REJECTION and putting up WALLS and arguing about FIT or GOING outside of YOURSELF to another to make yourself feel good. It is about finding the love WITHIN yourself and NURTURING it and YOU... [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]

cali, hormonal? Ok, that is real and a factor in communication, thanks for the honesty [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] btw, the picture was nice, you guys look like a happy couple, is so interesting to put faces to the rhetoric.cali.. I just love, SnL, how you can argue w/ those who have done anecdotal, qualitative and quantitative research... not only argue... but state out and out that they are wrong...snl..Heck, we can all do that, nor do I think I am a babe in the woods, I have been studying human behaviour for um.... probably 40 years, started when I was very young, trying to figure out why people do what they do, and I have read/studied extensively....but maybe I don't no nuttin, could be.cali...You can argue 'fit' till the cows come home (and I don't own any...so it will be a LOOONNNGGG time), but in the end the reason a marriage doesn't work is because one or both persons won't allow it to... they allow themselves NOT to fit...snl...Chalk that up to an agree to disagree, I flat out don't think human beings are put together that way, and I conduct my life accordingly, and am willing to live with the consequences, likewise each of us has to do the same. I simply do not believe it makes no difference who you are married to, that is genetically wrong, and nonsensical to boot...if it was true, why do we date, why do we even want to date, why don't we just get in line and marry whoever is next in the other line....why do some people pull us and some push us away? cali...they allow themselves to close off and shut down. They don't live in the spirit of love... They make it all about themselves and continue to look inward instead of outward... They are more concerned w/ themselves and their happiness instead of living as God has instructed us to... SELFISH>>> SELFISH>>>> SELFISH>>>>snl..Ok, just for the heck of it, lets say love is just a decision...so you decide not to love someone, and love someone else (and your spouse does the same of course, cause it is just a decision, no bg deal)...what's the problem? Why be upset over it?cali...I could go on... but I know it will only open me up to another one of your long-winded, close-minded replies....snl...Succinct enough?cali...Hugs,snl..Thanks

To get back to original question!Just add my story (see the signature) to unsuccesful ones. It seems that my xH's second marriage will be the happier and longer than our's was maybe even producing more kids.

Great post, Cali!

cali, re ruiz, have to be honest I do not find such things (and that kinda style) of much use, it reminds me of the new age kind of approach to everything...I prefer nuts and bolts stuff about real people and real behaviour, things like Dr phils Life Strategies (although I can't stand Dr Phil himself)...and MB stuff (although I think they are too submissive about the significance and meaning of affairs, and what love actually is, vs settling), there behavioural modification, and what "in-love" actually looks like is right on the money. Getting in a bathtub of love is well.... to put it bluntly ..stupid, and useless.However, I do agree that one cannot love another unless they love themself, I wouldn't state/prove that how ruiz does, but I do think it is one of the fundamental truths. It is hard to seperate normal self-doubt and what level of self-esteem = loving oneself....but lack of care and protection for oneself (self-love) I suspect is at the root of many co-dependentcies...and I think that is why such marriages occur. There are lots of pyschologically dysfunctional people out there, as well as psychologically immature people...and the ones that need someone to dominate, or validate them, selectively seek out people vulnerable to co-dependentcy and try to get them to marry (usually by wearing several kinds of masks), it is this kind of marital pathology that is part of what I mean about fit too, a wrong kind of fit...yet one people will live in for a lifetime...just read the boards and stories, you see this over and over and over...the enabling of spouses who will not go deep with you emotionally, making excuses for them, calling them typical men (often), or having foo issues, or lack of communication issues, etc. etc. excusing them symptomatically, when it really is a far deeper problem. People living lifetimes just deciding to "love" these people while themselves are emotionally starved...why is that? Why do people live like that? Well, yes, part of it is they don't love themself enough to say this is not right, and to end it with such individuals, they fear no one else will love them. If a marriage is not essentially equal, that means an even exchange of emotional/pyschological resources, nurturing, vulnerability etc... if one is making ANY excuses for the other to justify an inbalance, something is seriously wrong, and the marriage is not about love. I think Dr. Phil said this (in so many words) and MB implies it.Anyways, I have a um.... experience base over many here cali, in that I have been in the homes of 10-15,000 people of all kinds, a true cross section of humanity (at least american humanity), not to conduct studies, and so is anecdotal, but I gotta tell you, approaches like ruiz might as well be gibberish, has nothing to do with reality, how people actually choose and live with each other, you (and most here) have no idea what the real world is like (in the sense of how people really live together under a variety of circumstances). I read all this stuff (self-help books), enter discussions here (and elsewhere) about how nurturing marrriage, is just a matter of educating someone to a few rules and doing it... and then I am in another home, have some conversation with folks (getting a feel for their lives, and who they are) and the contrast is almost shocking, people do not live, or are even capable of living, these ways, just plain flat out, ain't going to happen. That interests me, why is that, there must be more too it, and there is, and the answers lie in fit (genetics essentially, with about 10-20% enviroment) , and only sligtly in behaviour modification or "eddicating" folks to how it "should" be..... people do not act against their "best" interests on purpose (or violate the psychological profiles ruiz, MB, Dr Phil, and a host of others say are healthy)... they do so cause they are who they are, and only very little change is possible... change is good, and one should strive for it, but of much more importance is recognition, understanding what you have to work with, and what you can expect from that, and where you set the life bar...and that is all about fit. Don't you wonder why even something as specific as MB doesn't work that much? (it only works "well" after a filter is applied, it only works for couples that both want it to work, and have the capacity to do the work) It isn't cause people don't try, or aren't committed, and are therefore defective re marriage, it is cause there is a lot of diversity (some good some bad), and it makes a huge difference who you attempt to achieve marital intimacy with, and how you define success at doing it.[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

FWIW,In thinking about the likelihood of reconciliation, it would seem obvious that much depends on the personalities involved. Factors that would definitely skew the probabilities include:- Does the WS show / admit any guilt?
- Does the WS still really do love the BS on some level?
- Does the WS see that they do have a solvable problem?
- The amount of contact between WS and OP
- The amount and degree of LB'ing that occurs between OP and WS
- The amount and degree of LB'ing that occurs between BS and WS
- The degree to which changes are demonstrated in BS (Plan A)
- The amount of genuine care and attention that BS shows WS (Plan A)
- The efficiency of execution of Plan B
- The suddenness of Plan B
- The attitude projected by BS (strength, courage, caring, etc.)
- Is the WS the type of person to want to grow and learn?
- Does the WS have a good support group who're constructive?
- The level that EN are met by both BS and OPAs such, assigning a probability for all cases is only guessing at an average across the whole population. I think on an individual case, it can range from 0% to 90%, but overall distribution is not likely a bell curve - if everyone knew about MB, maybe more so.So really, I think that the BS becoming a keen observer is important. To recognize positive signs probably should imply that the BS should be encouraged, and continue to try. If there are none, well - it's true - one might be wasting their time.I was thinking about this specifically because I have an example of a friend who is now divorced. He had an unfaithful wife - she was a very mean WS - was very verbally abusive after d-day, basically saying that she was justified in her A because my friend was such a pr***. She left him immediately, and I believe eventually moved in with OM. My friend and his WW continued to talk 2-3 times a month, even talked about working on things occassionally. His WW showed all the classic symptoms of fogese, plus showed a fear of being alone. He filed for divorce along the way, hoping it'd snap her out of it. She didn't budge, and the divorce was final about 6 months or so after she left. Remember that she was living with OM now.Suddenly one day, about a month or two after the divorce was final, he got a phone call from his WW. She was in tears, begging and pleading to come home. She was willing to do ANYTHING to make it work now. My friend says he suspected she was doing this to manipulate him, but I don't believe that necessarily. I think his WW had her moment of "revelation", and had come out of the fog. I think he COULD have had her back at that point, but he was DONE, so it didn't happen.She eventually stayed with OM, recently had his child. I don't think they're actually married however. In the end, I suspect they stayed together because WW and OP are very needy people - fear of being alone, etc. Whether they're happy - that's a good question. I'd have to question it - there was a lot of potential between him and his W - I knew OM, and he's not as "good" a person.So yes, this was a case of WS and OP living together, and it could have quite possibly resulted in reconciliation. It didn't because my friend had enough, and possibly if he knew about MB and the dynamics of A's, he might have stuck it out longer. I would never have suspected that his W would have come out of the fog.

Here's MAEZY's story. It appears her H is returning after 1 year living with OW.**************************************************
MAEZY's Update - 02.25.2002My H is moving in today after 12 long months living with his OW. I would be jumping for joy, except that he is being totally honest with me(which is good) but he tells me that he is going to wean her off of him (she's clinging to him desperately). He tells me that he will see her as a friend to help her through getting over him. He's promised me that it will be 100% over in 3 months time, maybe shorter. He is totally honest with me and that is why I have agreed to let him move home as it is a huge step for him to move out of her house. If things do not go my way, I can ask him to leave again.

I know this is far from an ideal situation but I feel like is is realistic.Do you people think this situation could work? He says she is driving him crazy and that he has to get out of there. Please give advice.
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Haven,t been on boards for a while, but this caught my attention. I am M 30yrs this year H moved out 2yrs ago next aug. His OW has been living with him 1yr now. We have 3 kids 23,24,27.
H has no contact with them( altho adored them) they want nothing to do with him since his A. None of us had any idea of H a. til he told us.
Originally he wanted house sold etc, now I hear nothing, we both contacted solicitors, he did after me, but never has he mentioned D.
I am just beginning to pull myself together after 2 yrs almost of Hell. I have stopped ph, texting or letters. What will happen, I just don,t know, but like U I am not encouraged by stats. H I beleive had MLC big time, but if he doesn,t even try to contact his kids I really have little hope. I love him as much as ever and get so lonely still, but somehow the flame never dies. Sorry I am not a good stat. Had I known about his unhappiness before he started his A with a barmaid maybe we could have worked it thro.
Oh yes I got the I still love u but..... bit.
He has provided for me as before, apart from hollidays, etc but What He Wants Now!!! Well I wish I knew.
Be nice / or maybe not to see a final total of ones that made it.
Me 53 H 55. M 30yrs.Known each other since we were 5, Naej,