To Worthatry, I asked him to leave - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Worthatry, I gave him the letter, I know he read it. I checked on him and while he was on his 'getaway' last week, he stayed at a hotel very close to where she lives-I would have to be stupid not to see he's had sex with her, although I desperately want to deny it.I went out last night to a friends house after I found out and stayed there, talked, drank, cried and decided I cannot live with him while she is on the scene-he keeps getting angry with me for just being around, and I can't handle it. When I got home this morning he said he was going away again for a couple of days. I told him that I love him, and will be here for him and that I think it is better if he goes away for an indefinite time to decide what he wants, as I am not helping him with that at the moment, and I'm frightened I'll loose my cool and say something I'll regret - it will only push him away further. I told him I will be here when and if he decides he wants to be with me. In the meantime, I am going to put the house on the market and look for somewhere to live - which is going to be really tough by myself, but I think its what I have to do.This was not an easy decision Worthatry, but it seems the right thing to do, for me at least. I can't work with him while she's there, its eating me up. I'm frightened, I'm so sad, I cry, and I'm hurting, but the alternative just won't work right now. The harding thing I have to do is tell my dad, he's going to be so angry and its not going to help. I don't want him to hate my husband but I know he's going to, because he's hurt me. I'm trying to be strong, but its really hard when your ****scared of the action you've just taken.I really hope there is a god, because I really need it right now.

Seahorse - I feel your pain and please believe me when I say you're not unique - there are many here who can help you.Let's drop back to basics.Have you comminicated to him that you acknowledge that you contributed to creating the environment that led to your current crisis?Have you tried to fix the things you were doing wrong? By this question, I do not mean to imply that you are the cause for all of this - just that you probably had a part in it - maybe even a very small part.
Does he acknowledge that you've recognized your mistakes and are trying to address them? This is a bonus if he does - don't be discouraged if he doesn't.You are correct that the both of you cannot work on your relationship as long as she is in the picture. But, you can work on YOUR part. All you can do at the moment is eradicate your contribution to the root problems. Focus on this. Do not - at this moment - take steps that indicate your acceptance of the continuation of the affair. In other words, I recommend you NOT take steps to sell your home or do any thing else towards the "end" of your marriage. Don't do anything that assists the demise of your relationship. Make him do all the work. This will accomplish two things. One, he'll have to take the initiative to further the end of things between you two, and two, if he actually does this, you'll have no regrets that you contributed to the demise.You are in Plan A. This is very difficult. Tell your Dad that you want to try to save your marriage and to try to understand that you need to attempt this, at least. Ask him not to interfere. Refer to WAT's guidelines: you cannot separate the affairees. To hasten the end of the affair, do not interfere with its natural course. If he interferes, it may have the opposite affect.Please post your story on General Questions II. You'll probably get more responses.WAT

Dear Seahorse,WAT has given you some great advice. Before you DO ANYTHING you need to decide what YOU want. It will be VERY hard, but if you want to rebuild your marriage then it starts with you.You need to work on you and stop focusing on your H. Easier said then done BUT NECESSARY, Hon.I'm so very sorry that you're going thru this. Many have gone before you. There is no excuse for having an A, absolutely nothing can justify having an A. Your H is all the way in the wrong for doing it.Now, what YOU can do is work on yourself. Make changes in yourself that helped cause the environment of discord in the marriage. First thing I would do is get an appt with your doctor for anti-depressants. You have a tough but worthwhile road ahead of you if you decide you are going to fight for your marriage to make it anew. You need to demonstrate to your H that you are strong and will survive regardless of what he does, he is an alien right now. He'll do and say things that will be very bizzare, he may be mean to you, he may blame you, he may act indifferent toward your suffering ... it's all very typical although it is the worse thing anyone could go thru in being a BS. Some people equate it to being worse than death of a spouse. We know all the hurt, anger & anguish you're experiencing. We will help you. Get yourself strong, Seahorse. Please keep posting.Love,
Jo[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Life changing decision...
...when you are in a distraught situation...
...are rarely the right thing to do.Don't move away...If you need some time to make a decision...
...ask your H to move in with a male friend for a week or two... at most two!Get some counseling immediately...
Get to a doctor for anti-depressants... they won't take effect for 4 to 6 weeks... and take that into account!Then realize...
...recovery won't be easy...
...it will take time!You must feel some very strong emotions right now!You must feel the weight of the world is on you...
...and no one can understand your pain!...your pain... sadly to say has been felt by all too many on this forum.Try and follow their advice...
...they reall do know where your at...
...and all we are saying... is to learn from our mistakes... to make the pain lessen in the future.You are loved...
...give us a chance to show you how much. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Jim/NSR

Dear Seahorse,It sounds like you've just started down this nasty, horrible road that we all here dread. But... it's a road with a happy destination, if you can really embrace the values of MB.I encourage you to read, read, read everything here. Get some of the books in the bookstore. Post away as much as you like too. It's a great place to vent one's frustrations - far better to do it here than when dealing with your WS.Just to illustrate the kind of timeframes to expect, check out my reply in this posting: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=015448As you can see, I've been a Plan A for 5 months now. It's been very, very hard to do. But I do feel like it's done some very important things for me, such as:- Before this came out, I felt that I was over-dependent on my wife. This experience has taught me how to be more independent.- Before my wife and I were married, we were very close, very affectionate, and very much in-love. And I loved that feeling, that atmosphere. But we settled into life, and forgot to meet each other's most important EN. I understand this very well now, and am prepared to make some lovely lady very happy - by being much, much wiser now.So there are benefits to be had - got to make lemonade when handed lemons, I guess!

Thank you all for your support, advice and generally being there. I would be in a seriously bad state had I not found this website. If one good thing has come out of all of this, its that I've found out I have a small handful of good friends who would do anything for me, when actually I thought I had none!I have also found out that I'm strong. I thought I'd be trying to 'off' myself, but I've written a plan for coping, and I'm looking towards the future (neither with happiness or sadness, just looking). My heart is heavy right now, I truly understand what it is to be heartbroken.WAT here are my answers to your questions. Yes I have told him that I am responsible in part for all this, that I have not been so easy to live with and the sex not great-all things I could have changed earlier but didn't. He said he had noticed that I've been trying very hard and that some things have changed(eg being happier when together, not getting stressed about things, having and enjoying sex), but he also said a couple of things I'd done had pissed him off - I'm not perfect, and as you have said, he's a bit of an alien right now. I've made efforts to be happier when he's around, tell him I love him and admire him, have more sex (difficult when he is not here). I'm still learning about the things he wants as I go (when I first found out we both filled out the EN questionnaire and I've been studing his).I am also reading HNHN, and will get SAA soon. For myself, I need more caring from him, and acknowledgement that I am contributing significantly to our lifestyle. I need him to make sex a bit more interesting than it has been. I want to be included more in the things he does. This is if he returns. I have to be more independent and stop living for him. I have often felt that my life's 'on hold' and that I'm meant to be doing something else with my life (workwise, recreation-wise). No wonder I was unhappy. When the pain eases a little, I will search to find what that is.I'll take your advice re not selling the house, as the thought of it is all a bit overwhelming right now, but I think I will get some legal advice and see if I can get a loan on my salary - I don't think I'll mention any of this to him right now, as he's likely to get nasty, and I don't intend to do anything right now. Dad is ok, but I didn't mention the A, I just couldn't, although he did ask. I know its wrong to lie to dad, but right now, I don't think I could handle his reaction. I told him I will be trying to work things out, so hopefully he'll keep out of it.Guys, I'm really concerned about taking antidepressants. I know you recommend them, but they scare me (getting hooked). Yes, I'm very down, yes this is the lowest point in my life, but I have not turned to alcohol or anything like that. I will go to the doc, and I'm going to get some half days off work, but antidepressants...hmm, I don't know? This would have to be the toughest thing that's ever happened to me. I'm scared, I'm sad, confused, my heart hurts, I cry, I sleep, I walk, I'm generally in a daze, I take each minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. I told him that whatever he decides i would still like to be friends with him. He agreed, and I could see tears in his eyes. I think he does love me, he's just not 'in love' right now. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Seahorse - I don't think you can get "hooked" on anti-depressants. Please see your doc about it. I was in severe depression and the meds worked wonderfully. I am now "cured" and I've been off the meds for quite a while.Have you lost weight or gained weight? Do you have trouble sleeping? Do you have anxiety attacks? If any of these are true, you're a prime candidate for depression and you're just like most of the rest of us here were at some point. The good news is that it's very reversible with the right attention. Sure, you may eventually climb out of it all by yourself with no medication, but if you want to work on your marriage and WHEN your H comes out of the fog, you'll need to be the best Seahorse you can be. You won't if you're also coping with depression.We all understand your needs are not being met by your H right now. Do not press him about this now, but at the same time, don't allow yourself to be a complete doormat. "Doormat" is a common term used here and it's hard to describe how much of one to be or not to be. Suffice to say that you should not be needy and you'll have to continue to make HUGE sacrifices for quite a while. After you read SAA i think you'll have a better understanding of this.If he's filled out the EN questionaire, you're WAY ahead of a lot of others here. Just keep in mind that he may zig zag all over the place, change history, and change his wants and desires - his answers on the questionaire may contradict his actions. So, study it, but don't be surprised if things change.

Regarding being a doormat or not being a doormat...Plan A is about bettering yourself for the good of your relationship. When you do something "nice", think about how it makes you feel after you do it...if you feel positive and glad, then things are fine...but if you feel guilty or angry afterwards, then you've probably just compromised yourself (or in other words, been a "doormat").

Hi Seahorse,
Just checking in to see if you have had a chance to talk to your H and how things are going today. Each day is an opportunity to find some good in the most dire of circumstances. Keep the faith!

I will see the doctor re the anti-depressants, I have to go there about the flu I've caught.H wants to come home tonight, says he's ready. Says he loves me etc, etc. I just feel its too soon, he still has contact with OW. Do I just allow him to come and go like this?Now I see what you mean about being a doormat.

How many times has he done this?This is good - I'd love to have this chance.Unless he's done this several times, let him come. Plan A your butt off. DO NOT be accusatory, *****y, or otherwise nasty. Greet him with open arms and compassion. Especially if he's not sent OW packing, you will need to give, give, give. DO NOT expect anything in return.
Give him safe harbor. Make him feel welcome. Repeat your understanding that you contributed to the environment that made this whole mess possible.Good luck!WAT

Him coming home has not been a great experience, in fact, I think its even worse than when he's gone, you've got what you desperately want right in front of you, but you can't have it, and nearly everything I did or said was somehow wrong.He's run out of money, he needeed a loan as his credit card is full, personally I think that's the only reason he came home. He's says she's gone again, I don't believe it. One minute he says he's going to move out with a (male) friend, the next he's confused and dosen't know what to do. He says I need to loose more weight and I'd be perfect like a supermodel, this really hurt, big time. He says he misses me, he says he dosen't. He says he ****ed in the head, he says he dosen't want me anymore but I will always be a 'special friend'. I am going nuts, I want to hunt this girl down and send pieces of her to different parts of the globe. I hate her for getting what I've been missing out on for sometime. We did have some nice conversations together last night, and we did have some not so nice conversations too. Basically, I think its over, he just dosen't have the guts to say it and is waiting for me to break, well I'm not going to let him off easy! If he dosen't want me anymore he's going to have to say it and initiate.I cried last night, I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat. Today I feel like I just want to die.He's coming home again tonight, I'm so frightened I will do the wrong thing, I just want to run away.

Why the big push to go on drugs to deal with tough times. Are they needed sometimes??? YES. Are they supposed to be our fix everytime we go thru depressing and hard times???? NO. This woman sure sounds like she's doing well without the drugs. Antidepressants can be great but they ain't NO cure for dealing with tough times. And while they may not be "addictive" an awful lot of americans use them to get thru life and that's not helpful. People got thru marriage problems and divorce long before these drugs were even around!

Sorry Seahorse to interupt your thread!Hey EmilyLang BonnieBB Girl 2 go back to gloryb everyone know who you are. Who do you think you are fooling!

I apologize for the above outburst, I am not feeling very rational at the moment, add to that the flu.

Seahorse - no need to apologize. What you describe is, sadly, pretty typical of WSs who have not made up their minds.Please don't give up now. Reach for that inner strength and try to look beyond the moment. Expect him to waffle all over the place and give you hope, then jerk it right back. Try to think long term. You can;t react to every current in the river. Be the hero, not the victim.You have your wits about you a LOT more than he does. Play the role - you may know more about his state of mind than he does.You will survive and thrive - take it from a survivor. No, my marriage has not been restored, but my sanity has been. Yours will be, as well.Now for some specific advice: do not react negatively to anything he does. Be your self, listen to him no matter what he says, and disarm him by NOT arguing. If he complains about anything to do with you - like your weight - simply say, "I understand your feelings." DO NOT try to solve the issue or defend yourself. He's looking for reasons to make you unworthy. If you argue or make excuses, that feeds his justifications for his behavior.Another response to, for example, the weight thing could be, "Yes H, I'm not totally satisfied with my appearance right now, either. (if you can honestly say this) This is one of the things I've decided that I need to work on. Can you tell me other things I do that bother you?"Then, if he answers, file his complaints away and think about them. You're in Plan A. You need to know all his complaints so you can decide if they're legit and do something if you need to - we all know that some complaints will be revisionist history and trivial - these you simply remember and keep track of. The more trivial and outlandish the complaints, the more you know he's reaching for excuses.If you resist hearing his complaints, it validates his weak justifications for his choices so far. If you resist, he says to himself, "See, I was right. She has no intention of becoming the woman I need. OW doesn't have these problems." Remember, OW can do very little wrong - for now. You have the advantage, in a sense, that you have a better understanding of the course of a affair and you know the "perfection" will wear off. In the meantime, you become more perfect. Got it? WAT

I really do understand what you are saying and I am doing it. I tell him I love him, I miss him, when he says that his mother's a moron and his father should leave her (which I'm actually thinking he's trying to say this about me) I say 'so you're angry with your mother'. I try to initiate sex but he dosen't want it. I am finding it really difficult to deal with the rejection. He just dosen't love me anymore, he's angry, he hates me and just does not love me anymore. Its torture and I just cannot deal with it. This person is MY LIFE, and I try to imagine myself without him, but I can't. I don't want anyone else, I just want him and I know that very soon he's going to go away. I don't understand, he bought me such beatiful gifts for christmas, he would always say he loved me, now it seems he just hates me, dosen't want to touch me. There just dosen't seem to be anything left. I look in his eyes, and I think I see it. I really am trying not to expect much, but when you have been married to someone for 10 years, they have always loved you and been so close, like friends, like soulmates, how can it just all turn off in two weeks (since D-day)? I have been to the docs and got some anti-depressants, but frankly I'm scared to take them and scared not to take them. I really think dying would be better than living through this, its just too much for me. I feel sick and disappointed when I see him. Its like this huge weight suddenly comes down on my shoulders and I just dread the thought of him coming home and not loving me. Could I have really been such a bad person to deserve this? Could life have really been so awful for him, but he put on an act for the last 10 years. I really do not see how anyone picks up and goes on after this? Can you ever love another person again? I thought that Sunday was the worst day of my life, but they seem to be getting worse and worse.

Seahorse - believe me when I say I've been where you are. Please try hard to not place so much credibility in your H's current actions and words.It helps a lot of BSs in your situation to look at your H as not himself, not rational, and practically in a state of temporary insanity. You are trying to rationally evaluate his behavior. Re-read WAT's Rule #1. We joke about it, but it feels entirely plausible that he's been abducted by aliens and had his brain scrambled before the gave him back. This was the only "explanation" that I could come up with in my situation - as a way to communicate the bizarreness of it all to others. I think you're in exactly this spot - trying to rationally cope with irrational behavior. Please try to distract yourself. DO NOT come across to him as needy and whiney. It will have the opposite affect of what you want.WAT

Hello there Seahorse,Worthatry is very concerned for you. He's called out to some of us "oldtimers" to come an give you a lift. Be asurred of one thing,many of us have been in the exact same spot where you are now and have come full circle to have a marriage that is better than the ones our WS destroyed with their affairs. It's entirely possible. If it happened to me it can happen for someone else too.Your H is exhibiting TYPICAL WS behavior. I used to just cringe at how angry my H was when he was in the midst of his A. Of course he wasn't mad at anyone else but me. That's a good old coping mechanism called PROJECTION. In fantasy land there's just no way one could be responsible for their own misery, it's just got to be that old miserable spouses fault!I'll tell you Seahorse, I felt just like you did. I couldn't live in the same house with my WS knowing he was in love with someone else. I couldn't share the man I married. We separated about a month after d-day. I wasn't mean or nasty. In fact the kids(then 13,8 and 6) and I helped him move. I hadn't been a horrible spouse. In fact I had pretty much Plan A'd my whole marriage. I had just lost sight of my H's rightful place as first in my life and he had slipped into depression due to numerous crises in our lives. In his depression and my withdrawl he was able to tell himself I no longer loved him. He self medicated and made himself feel better with his A. I tried for several years to get him to realize he was depressed but he'd have none of that and just kept saying he wasn't happy. Now he admits he'd been depressed for a number of years and has gone on to advocate for other men he knows who are suffering with that same generalized unhappiness that just never seems to get better. Alas it does feel better when they have an affair, but it doesn't last because an affair isn't real life.I always say that our separation saved our marriage. My H got to find out what it would feel like to be divorced. I was civil and working like crazy in Plan A for ME!!!! To make myself better and stronger no matter what he chose to do. I quickly realized I had no control over his choice but I did have much influence. I worked diligently to show him I could be the woman he originally knew me to be. I was strong on the outside, though I cried at night and felt like a waekling on the inside. He found it very attractive that I was able to manage myself and the kids on my own,and that I was making changes in myself. He got the chance to feel what it would be like without me. He also got the chance to realize that if he didn't want me I would be an attractive option for someone else. Our kids would have none of the "going to daddy's" for the weekends, they didn't want their ives disrupted and he felt it was unfair to force them. That hit him like a ton of bricks.Our 6 yo D was falling apart and always crying for her daddy. He got to see how divorce would affect his kids lives and his relationship with his kids. It's all just the reality that having an affair and leaving a marriage is not what it's cracked up to be. My H was a good man who had made a horrible mistake. In his pain and desperation he had been seduced by a lie. He's human. I prayed and prayed and God gave me the stregnth to see him for the lost, wounded man he really was. It allowed me to remain compassionate towards him aiding my Plan A in our separation. He soon saw that he really did want to stay married for me. He realized this because he was allowed to experience the consequences, the reality of the choice he was making. He realized this because I was able to assure him I would make the changes he desired me to make (still working on that 3 years later). He realized he had a lot to lose when I sucked up my hurt and went about living my life for me and released him to be "happy", whatever he thought that was. He found out life was happier for all of us with an intact marriage and family.You can Plan A in separation. There is no set of hard and fast rules for any marriage recovery. you can do this!. Read Hope for the Separated and Love Must be Tough in addition to the Harley's stuff. Divorcebusting also is a great read. Your old marriage is over but it is possible to build something new and better. Focus on you and let H go. The harder you grab onto a handful of sand the faster it runs through your fingers. An open door makes one not so desperate and angry about getting out. You can do this! Hang in there. Do think about the meds they make this traumatic time in your life much more manageable. They allow you to be more objective and ease the rollercoater ride. You may want to consider asking you doctor to excuse you from work for a bit and take a medical leave of absence.State disability pays for an acute depressive episode. Who wouldn't be depressed at a time like this. It's not weak, it's normal! I did this and it helped me immensely to have to only focus on myself and my kids.All the best to you!

Dear Seahorse,
While I was reading this thread, I felt I would like to tell you that I can completely relate to what you are going through. I read on one of your posts that you thought about maybe to "off yourself". That was how I felt. My D-Day was 11/18/01. I too have been married for 11 years and NEVER once considered it a possibility that my husband would go to another woman to meet his needs. When I found out, it was personally devastating, I cried so hard I would actually sort of howl (embarrassing today!). I had ALWAYS considered myself a strong, capable woman and here I was thinking stuff like this. I couldn't eat, (I lost 20 lbs in one month) I couldn't sleep, I couldn't think AT ALL at work, its amazing they tolerated me. All I could do was sit here and read the stuff on this web site (because reading the books HNHN & SAA was too obvious at work). And, I felt like I was in pain ALL the time -- and I just wondered when and if it would ever end. Thus, "off myself" to make the pain go away.The reason I want to share this with you is because during that time, I felt like there was NO WAY I would ever survive that kind of pain. But so far, I have, and it doesn't hurt nearly as bad today - thanks largely to the course of action recommended by the Harley's books, support of this group & web site, support of my doctor, & friends who support my marriage, and a good individual counselor. It gave me a focus, it makes sense to me, and a positive way to apply myself for my OWN betterment. It completely beats simply "reacting" to the emotions I feel. I feel I am being proactive in my approach.First, I went to my doctor. About the antidepressents I want to say that I was worried about social stigma and addiction also. (Its funny now, when I think about it, how I focused on that when I was also considering "offing myself".)For me I realized that I had many of the symptoms of clinical depression caused by the situation I was in - not that I was crazy. A very small dose 10-20 mg/day of Prozac I found to be helpful. It did not give me a "high", nor is it addictive. In fact, I can't really say I "feel" anything from the effects of the drugs, but I AM able to better cope with the feelings/emotions which are still strong. My thinking is a little clearer and I am able to focus. I can not only see what's coming at me through the "foggy thinking", but I can find the strength to apply a course of action. Sort of like seeing a roaring train coming at me, and I can decide and physically move OFF the railroad tracks, rather than stand there frightened and letting it run over me - if that makes sense. It does to me. The Prozac treatment, as explained by my doctor, is supposed to be only temporary - 6 months or so - to allow the brain chemicals time to adjust to what was a sudden and traumatic stress situation.Second, I found a personal counselor who is unbiased and with whom I felt comfortable. (She was the one who gave me the train analogy) This was not easy. I went through a couple counselors before I found a great lady who is very helpful and we work well together. Again - I would recommend seeking out recommendations. I was too embarrassed to do this, and kept finding people on my own who did not click well with me. After I started asking people for recommendations, I found the one I have now. (Remember, I am a strong, independent woman and I should NEVER need this kind of help - that's why it was hard to ask). Now that I have, I can't tell you what a relief and a help it has been. She is supportive of my marriage, and of the Harley's approach to restoring love to a marriage. She is unbiased, and therefore nonjudgemental. Great to have!Third, one of the Harley's recommendations is to surround yourself with people who are supportive of your marriage, and your work to restore it. I understand your reluctance to tell your dad. In my case, I told some family members and they reacted very defensively I'm sure what they viewed to be on on my behalf, encouraging me to "get rid of the bum, I knew he was never any good", etc. My mother - momma bear protecting her cub! Anyway, I know she was trying to be helpful - but it was not. If what she was saying was right, why did it hurt so bad? My husband has many good qualities. I KNOW I contributed a lot of negative love busters to the marriage, and was not meeting his emotional needs. In fact,I was so wrapped up in myself - I didn't know or understand anything about such concepts. If I get nothing else out of this, I do know that today I will be in much better shape for future relationships, and can avoid making the same mistakes. Bottom line - I try to surround myself with people and friends who are supportive of my marriage, and try to avoid those that are negative. Basically my counselor feels that most marriages can be saved - UNLESS there is danger of physical abuse. This gives me the strength I need to continue Plan A.Fourth, I read the Harley's books - Surviving the Affair, and His Needs, Her Needs. I also found their Quick Start Audio Tape His Needs, Her Needs to be helpful. It stays in my car all the time. I listen to it when I need help "staying the course" of Plan A.Fifth, I started Plan A. Believe me, one of the hardest things I've ever done! My instinct was telling me to attack my husband, to retaliate for all the horrible hurt I felt. In fact, that had been the typical way I responded to him. Plan A involves avoiding love busters at all costs, and try to meet HIS emotional needs, regardless of how I feel. When the OW is still in the picture, this may be difficult to do.I was worried that I would be perceived as a DOORMAT by others. Thus, it was helpful that I stick with the people who supported my marriage, and who could understand what I was trying to do. And I have actually sometimes felt like a doormat, abused and unappreciated by H since making that decision and implementing it. However, my goal is to improve myself, my reactions, my understanding of him, and demonstrate ability to meet those needs. In addition, I get two additional benefits. One - I get an opportunity to "clean up" my side of the street. Two, if this approach doesn't work, I will have have the benefit if knowing I did my best, and he will have love busted so much that I will no longer be in love with him. Because its the love that I feel for him which causes me to hurt so bad at the idea of the loss - if that makes sense.One of the best revelations I had from my counselor I would like to share with you. After I started to change my reactions, my husband would give me small, subtle comments that he noticed the change, and in fact was surprised because he didn't think things could change. My counselor pointed out that since my behavior was new to H(especially after 10-11 years), that he didn't know how to respond to it, didn't trust it, and kept waiting for "the other shoe to drop". So it's important for me to avoid love busters, and not give him reason to villify me in his mind because I am not being sincere. It has crossed my mind that this would be a lot easier for me if he would just take my word for it that I am committed and sincere. But, I guess actions speak louder than words.So, here I am today. I'm not hurting so bad anymore. After D-Day my husband told me the usual things - "he loved me but wasn't in love with me", that he didn't want to try to work on the marriage. I forced him out of the house and he got an apartment (that was before I found this web site). I should have kept him close to me, and have him make any choices regarding the OW HIS choices, not mine. But, I have seen positive changes since D-Day. Husband claims A is over, he has given me access to all of his previously "secret and private" email accounts, he tells me he loves me, he initiated work on the marriage using MB as a guide, he actually listened to my quick start tape, and filled out the EN questionnaires. All of this represents a big change from where we were on D-Day.Now, he HAS NOT read the books, so is not quite on the same page of understanding as I am of these concepts. He has not written a letter to the OW ending the affair. I still do not trust him, but I feel okay monitoring his activities for my own knowledge (I used to feel like I was being sneaky and wrong. I don't anymore. Its for my benefit so that I can see that train coming). He has not been staying at his apartment at all, even though we continue to pay the rent. I view this as a good thing because it gives me an opportunity to try to meet his needs and demonstrate my commitment. I hope one day in the future I can achieve a trust level of maybe say 50%, then 60%, then continue. And I try to avoid feeling like a doormat, or looking for validation that "I am right" and "he is wrong".In one of Dr. Harley's books, he talks about the need to be right. Unfortunately, a judge will look at our situation and say "congratulations - you are right. You are a victim. Now you are divorced". Would we like to be happily married, or would we like to be considered "right"? Personally, I would like to be happily married, or at least know that I gave it my very best shot. Just one more thought. Today I hope for the best, but I am preparing for the worst and trying not to put blinders on when it comes to the future welfare of my son and I. For example, I did seek legal advice quietly without my husband's knowledge for my benefit. This was so beneficial because it provided me with information I needed to know. Since that time I have not taken any legal action, but I wasn't wasting any more energy WORRYING about what I didn't know, and could focus that energy on Plan A. (And believe me, I need all the energy I can get). Now I know what I need to know about legal issues, I have that information available, and can take appropriate action should that become necessary. I hope it doesn't.

And, I am surviving. Some days better than others, but much better altogether than a few months ago when I wanted to die.Thank you for the opportunity to share this with you. I'm no expert. But this helps me a lot. Take care of yourself. I pray you get the strength, hope and positive experience you need to make it through all of this a this whole and happy person.Big Big Hugs,
Terri

Please help me. I am Plan A'ing as hard as I can, Ihave been told 3 times that she has gone, but right now there SMSing each other on bloody valentines day (i got not a thing and I don't really care either). He has changed her name to Bee on his phone and the phone number has changed, which I think he has paid for (I got a mysterious bill in the mail that work pays for). Although I love my husband, right now I think he is scum and I want him to go. This is my plan, please help me with it.1. I know where she lives - confront her with my marriage certificate and wedding photos (he has lied to her about being married he told me and he has never worn a ring).2. Call my Dad and ask for help.3. Pack his bags tomorrow, and drop them at his work place, book him a hotel and ask him to leave until he sorts this out.4. Quickly get legal advice about how to protect myself financially (he is extrememly nasty with me at the moment and I frightened he's going to do something very nasty like spend all our money and leave me with nothing.I have got meds from doc, but took one last night and I've been quite ill since, personally I think it is being in shock thats reacting with the med as I am often shaking, quite literally. I do not live in US, but will wait for a little while for some replies - its just after midnight here, so I have a few hours. I won't go to work tomorrow so I can sort all this out.As you can see, I am pretty desperate, but I don't know if I can handle the lies, its sending me round the twist. Please help me, I'm absolutely desperate

I have been reading through plan A by misdirection, and I think it would be best if I did ask him to leave straight away. There are two reasons - one he is a habitual lier and I don't think its going to change.two - he is way out of love credits right now, and if there is to be a reconciliation and I sincerely hope there is, he has to break it off and be committed. I'm not afraid anymore, but will wait a while to see if you wil reply

OK - let's prioritize what you want to do.disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney. Inaddition, I am not familiar with the differences in your national/territory laws (I suspect you're an Aussie.)IMHO, first seek the legal advice. Go get an attorney first thing in the morning. Be prepared to describe all your joint financial holdings. Ask your attorney whether you should liquidate all your cash assets before your H does and set aside his fair share.Ask your dad for help.I recommend NOT contacting OW or packing your H's stuff immediately. All actions should be with regard to protecting yourself - not trying to influence other people.Keep us informed.WAT

Hi, First of all, here is a [[

]] for you. You have been through a lot but no more than the rest here. All our stories are riddled with pain. So since you have been getting some good support from some pretty great people, please let me drop in my 2 cents. 1. Don't enable your H.
This means, don't pack his clothes, don't book
the hotel, don't drop it off from work.2. Let him do whatever he threatens (divorce, move
out whatever). If he threatens violence then
learn your rights and take action. 3. Read the books here, his needs/her needs is a
good place to start. Love must be tough by Dr
James Dobson is another good book.4. Strengthen your personal support group.
Counselor, family, friends, children, pet....5. Keep venting here. 6. Read the basic concepts and re-read them. 7. Take the emotional needs questionnaire.
Once for you and him, if he won't take it
pretend you are him and see how it comes out.
Then read the info and take it again. 8. Keep a journal. 9. Look into the divorce/separation laws in your
area. Know your rights. 10. Protect your assets. 11. If you suspense the OP of something wrong,
check them out. USWEB Search is a good place
to start. Costs a few bucks but you may
find stuff......There may be other tools
available. You will be sooo busy doing the above, your pain will decrease. Just be careful you don't go gung ho and lose focus of your goal.....personal and marital recovery. Personal recovery is within your control, full marital recovery requires both. Don't make goals you can't reach on your own. Let your mate see the better you. Hope this helps. L.

OK You know how I said I wasn't frightened, I spoke to a lawyer and now I am. She told me (and please I do not wish to offend anyone here for any reason), that the story I have told re OW being Thai and he said she was gone, etc, etc is a very common story. She said that next thing she will become pregnant, he will move in with her and she will become a resident. Then she will kick him out, he will try to come back to me and then take half my assets. How;s that for a scary story? I'm quite literally skaking like a leaf. Lawyer is giving me some legal info. Dad is very supportive, Friends are very supportive. H has been abducted by aliens all last night (neither of us slept a wink, phone was hidden probably to communicate and "butter" him up for next step). He's going out drinking "with friend" tonight, dosent know when he will be home, what if tonights the night?Basically this is going to cost me a fortune if I persue this, but if I wait what happens then? I may have nothing left and she'll have it all. SHould I wait should I go. Maybe I should wait, so that at least he may feel guilty about leaving me and be nice, although he can be very unfeeling - this is a man who told his father to leave his mother because she was a moron.I know everyone is saying he's irrational and I can see that, but he can be very nasty if he wants and he may do that if he's acting irrationally and feeling guiltly (as that is the side I've seen of him the last few days).Should I try to find out for sure if they are definitely meeting up (ie do some PI survellience work?) Oh god, I love my husband, but I really can't see any hope for a reconciliation in all this confusion, what if she does take him for everything? I have to protect me otherwise I'll be broke.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
......what if she does take him for everything? I have to protect me otherwise I'll be broke.<hr></blockquote>
Assume the worse and then you will be prepared for most of what happens. This is painful to say and do but that is what you will have to face. I am not saying it is over, I am saying that you will be on that awful 'roller coaster'. NOw it is important for you to work your way to the point where you will find the control over your emotions. Do your homework. Take care of yourself. Don't fall for all his words. Watch his actions. Read the books suggested. If you can schedule sometime with Steve or Jennifer, then do so ASAP. When he wants to talk, let him but again don't make life changing decisions based on either of your emotions. He threatens to go to the OW, let him. He calls you names, walk away. Preserve your respect. Show your H the better U. Hugz,
L.

I know what you mean Orchid, I've been saying to myself, you got to face the worst, and anything from there is a bonus. It still really really hurts though, I can't help thinking of him being with her.I've got a plan, but I'm not doing anyting rash at the moment. There is a part of me that still wants him. He is still at home, we had a bit talk this morning, he gets worked up. But I've told him, he will make the final decision to call it quits unless he is still in contact with her, in which case I want him to leave. I told him that if he is lying to me he will have to live with his conscience.He's told me he still sees her frineds and still insists she has returned to Thailand. We had a holiday planned in March, he's told me he was going to go with one of her friend to Bangkok and travel all through there. I told him that if he does that he will have contact with her and that he must leave.I know you have said do not give ultimatums, but i feel this is one I have to give. I do not want him while he has her on the side.I told him as a friend to be careful and take precautions against her - he seemed to accept this.I also told him that he is free to chose what he wants to do and when.I still think hes lying and that she is still here and that he's going to holiday with her. I cannot trust this person and don't know when I ever will again. This is the toughet thing I've even been through, everyday is a new day. Today I feel ok, tomorrow I don't know. I do love him, but he's lied so much and been so nasty, how do you keep hanging in there?

Seahorse - please believe me when I say that most of the BSs here have been EXACTLY where you are: can't trustcan't believe we can forgivecan't stand the paincan't believe we'll surviveBu here we are. People like me, Orchid, Teri, and mthrrhubrrd (I always mis-spell her moniker).I expect to add Seahorse to that list.You WILL stand the pain. You WILL cope. You WILL be the strong one. You WILL be the hero!!Believe it or not, your H needs you. YOU need you. We are here for you.
Knowledge is power and here you will find the knowledge. Your H is on a fantasy cruise and it'll dock eventually. It's dern near impossible, but the best thing for you to do is to be cool and find some way to occupy yourself while this runs its course. THEN you'll have an opportunity to restore your marriage. Right now, you're just like all us other BSs in that you want it to happen NOW!!!Patience is a virtue and this virtue is imperitive right now for you - as it is for ALL other BSs.Examine yourself for things that need to be changed, then sit back, knowing you're on the moral high ground, and be patient.You WILL reap your rewards in one form or anopther. I promise.

Seahorse....are you an Aussie? I suspect you are, cos I am one.WAT is giving you very good advice, and so are many others here. I have a similar experience to you so I will share it, sicne you are worried about OW taking H for all he has got.My H and I were working OS in Mozambique. He took up with a Mozambican girl, and if you know anything at all about that country, you will know it is very poor. I was told these girls make a habit out of picking up white men for the sole purpose of getting their money, so when he eventually TOLD me she was Mozambican, I flipped to another level.Yes, she got money from him, (not a LOT, but too much IMO) yes, she got an easy ride for a while (in more ways than one [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), but he DID wake up to her, and not before long.She admitted she was after his money when he was trying to break it off.....oh but I love you too, honey, yeah, right. I know she said this because I was listening into the phone conversation they had (with H's permission).Okay, well it ended, and that was good....he went on from there as you can see from my signature, but I am here to tell you that if your man has half a brain, he will work it out. And BTW, it may be a love-buster, but I told him as soon as I knew she was Mozambican about the local girls little ploy, and I believe it did make him think. Maybe you can somehow share the same info to your H? You don't have to say where you got it from...just tell him this:You were talking to a friend (me) and you heard that a guy she knows married a girl from Zimbabwe (true), brought her back here to Australia, and within a week she was gone, suing for divorce and took him for everything, claimed he bashed her, etc, etc. That is a TRUE story, and just because she was from Zimbabwe makes no difference. She was after citizenship, which at the time she attained as soon as she married. I believe the laws have changed somewhat these days, but H doesn't have to know THAT little detail [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .Anyway, take heart, seahorse (I love your name) and try to Plan A until you can't stand.Love and light,Jacky

GOOD MORNING SEAHORSE
You have gotten a lot of great advice here. Just remember.... you are on an emotional roller coaster... hang on... prepare to fight for what is yours... and just take one day at a time.. Yes there is a God.. even if He seems far away at times... I light my candle and pray filling my pillow with tears each night. But, He will not leave me or forsake me even in my darkest hour. We can not change our mate only make yourselves stronger and pray the fog will lift and they will come to their sences before it is too late. Keep yourself busy... and know we are here for you... Hugs GF

Yes, I'm an Aussie, and currently I'm in one of the seediest parts of Aust just walking, and thinking and looking and searching.(Jacky will probably guess where this is-another eastcoaster).I'm afraid that I'm faily miserably at Plan A, and seem to be pushing him away because I get afraid and insecure. I'm scared he's going to take a whole lot of money, but as I said I've had a bit of legal advice so know where I stand.He's still pretty adamant about moving out and says its because of the way I am acting. I keep trying to reassure him that it will get better, but as I said he wants out.He keeps saying he needs space, etc etc. He's going to holiday in Thailand (at her boyfriends!!)resort in Phuket - if all this is true. What can I do? I just have to let him go, don't I?He's so caught up in this image. He's says she wears Armarni and blah blah blah, he totally blind! HE has a good woman who has prven for 10 years how much she loves him and he wants Armarni in Phuket! I always thought he was an intelligent man, but boy oh boy, he really has been abducted by aliens.Anyway as I said, and I keep trying to refocus on other things, that today I'm on a little expedition into the city. I'm even planning to go watch a movie by myself (i've only done this once before).I really don't feel like working tomorrow, but I need a job and will struggle on. Jacky I did tell him about the story of some Thai women (please don't take offence anyone, I work in an Interpreter service although I'm not bilingual) he said he wasn't silly and wouldn't let anything like that happen, besides, he said, shes rich and he never pays for anything when he goes out - nothing is free buddy!I'm fluctuating between being OK and despair today, but I feel a little better now.

Seahorse,
I would love to chat with you. I will send you my phone number, or you can send me yours and I will call you.Anything to help!Love and light,Jacky[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nina too ]

OK so now, as hard as this is to think, say, write. I have to "move on". He's told me this (although he also says he dosen't want to end the marriage). Will I start to feel like moving on, or do I just do it and the feelings will get better. I've never been alone before, I don't know how this is done.As I said, he has decided he is taking our planned holiday with someone else, and has told me I should go where-ever I want. I thought of someplace warm with water, beach and lots to do (I live in Australia by the way, so it shouldn't be too hard). Thing is, I only know of resorts and can't bear to watch lovers strolling hand in hand under the moonlight (we used to do that).I'm not single, and don't intend to go somewhere that will lead me into trouble - I couldn't stand the complication.I'll have to work on this one, its all a bit too much to think of. It still one day at a time.

So this is what I'm struggling with at the moment. Have just been to staff counsellor. she says what everyone else here says - move on, fix yourself-I'm 100% in for this as I was frustrated and unhappy before D-day and I think this is a major reason why (overdependent on H - gave up life for H, sit and wait for H to come home, etc).OK so I'm thinking now, as you can see by my earlier post, about what I can do (join a club, etc). But what I want to know is: do I ever (at the moment) as H if he wants to say, go to a movie, have sex, say I love you to him, etc or do I wait for him to make this move?I'm confused. I'm being nice, and listening, but don't really know if what I'm doing is the "right" thing. I'm dying to know if he's definitely going to Bangkok to see Ow, but too afraid to ask. If he does tell me, shouldn't I ask him not to see her? I feel as though I should but again I'm afraid to do this. This morning I told him I would be organising my holiday and that I was going away this weekend, and I think he was a little taken aback. He sent me an email with "love you" on the end - I think he's worried now, but I don't expect this to last long. Any advice would be welcome. I'm feeling 10% better today which I think is better than nothing or feeling worse. Again, I'm taking this a day by day, hour by hour.[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
Have just been to staff counsellor. she says what everyone else here says - move on, fix yourself<hr></blockquote>Hi Seahorse - I also responded to your post on GQII.If this counselor is advising you to "move on", be wary. This is a common recommendation of well intended advisors who may not believe that marriages can survive affairs.You are experiencing the most emotional part of the roller coaster right now, and we all understand your reaction to want him to leave.Please reconsider this.That's exactly what this thought is - a "reaction." But think about it. You don't really want him to leave, right? Why contribute at this point to exactly what he thinks he wants - an end of the marriage? By asking him to leave, you're relieving him of making this his responsibilty.The same can be said about filing for divorce. Only when all else has failed and the break up of the marriage is inevitable and the WS won't do it, should the BS do it.You are still VERY early in this ordeal. I don't say that to scare you about how long your pain will last - but to emphasize that it's far too early to assume he's in this for the long haul. You've already stated how you've started to feel a little better, so you're following the normal course. Try to Plan A yourself to demonstrate your improvements. You can't do this if you kick him out.There may come a time to ask him to leave - but only when you've demonstrated your improvements and only if he doesn't leave on his own. That's what Plan B is for.WAT

(Please excuse the jumbled order of this posting-moved this from GQII as I'm getting too confused).Hi WAT, I hear what your saying - and I'll be honest, it would make me feel better if a nice guy came along and told me how wonderful I am, because right now, I don't feel it. I keep wondering what OW has that I don't - he says she has money, etc, etc, but I know that this thinking is getting me nowhere, and I know that finding a "friend" would be a disaster (for me, for the "friend"( and give my H-an excuse to blame me, so no I wouldn't do it. I am looking for new interests and new friends (of the friendship variety) though, as I have been too clingy and dependent on H, and he told me loud and clear on the weekend he absolutely hates it (and believe me there was no fog present at all at that moment). He told me he hates to see people walking over me, and he dosen't know why I do that. This is what I need to do for me,. before we were married I was independent, had interests, went shopping and was fun. But for the past year I have been very unhappy, depressed and frustrated that I have wonderful ideas about things I could do, but never DO anything about them, life passes by and I live with regret. He is a 'fix it' man and has not been able to fix this (as he sees it), but HE can't. I think it has been a lot of pressure for him (along with his job where he is also a 'fix it' man of sorts).I don't know what to do or say to him at the moment, I've ordered the book SAA (hard to locate in Australia) over the net, so at the moment this website is my main support (besides my friends and the counsellor). I am reading HNHN and getting some of it. WAT re the counsellor, I think deep down she does want to tell me to tell him where to go, but I've made it pretty clear to her I want to be with him, so she needs to accept this. But what we have talked about so far has been good. That is, my mother could be very nasty to me, and as a kid I got the message I was not good enough, which has carried through to adulthood. The times this hasn't affected me was when I was 18 and just finish school and got a job and had some freedom (and met my H), then when I finished Uni and got a job. She helped me to identify this, and is helping me do something about it. I don't think she wants to focus on the marriage anymore, but on me.Sometimes I want to say "I love you" to H, but am afraid this will be seen as too pushy. I want to invite him to dinner, but then he might think I'm being over-reliant. I want to initate sex, but last weekend when I did (and we did have sex) he said he felt guilty and it made his decision harder (I don't know what decision he was talking about). Last night we again had sex at his initiation and we both enjoyed it, but I don't know when I'm doing or saying the right things. Do I just let him call the shots, but what about filling his love bank (or should I just avoid LBusters at the moment)? I am trying to meet EN's, and he has commented the last few days that my figure looks like a swim suit model (which I think I look OK too), so I presume this is a small deposit in the love bank?I still want my marriage WAT, don't get me wrong. When I say "move on" I mean I'm just going to start living my life and if he decides to join in it will be good. For example, I've arranged to see friends this weekend, and will call another friend to arrange dinner. I'm arranging my holiday (as he wants to holiday separately) and will go visit a friend up north and then go on a diving course. He is really encouraging me with this, but sometimes I wonder what the ulterior motive is, or is he testing me to see if I really can do it on my own, or does he just want me out of the way so he can move out or be with her?I think he is going to Malaysia, and Bangkok with one of her (supposedly) male friends (if it is a friend and not her), and I'm sure he's going to meet up with her. I feel like telling him that if he does this our marriage will be over. Won't it just start all over again? He's being secretive and won't tell me anything. He also told me to stop snooping, don't open his mail or ask to see his phone. So, I haven't. Is this all really Plan A? God help me if this has to go on for months, because he's driving me bonkers, I don't know what is lies and what is truth anymore.Actually WAT, I don't think I could handle a "friend" at the moment anyway, I'm far to in love with my H. I'm just frightened that his show at reconciling at the moment is a farce and that all this will come crashing down around me.Yesterday he seemed like the H I used to know, but I don't expect that today will be the same, I will just wait and see and in the meantime, do what I need to do to get through the day. 
20.2.02
Today he was acting a little strange butI managed to get a love deposit in last night which felt really good and he said "thank you, thats really a nice thing to say" He is going out tonight for drinks, so I'm planning a full night to keep occupied. I would like some feedback re yesterday's post though as I don't know about this trip to Bangkok (if he does go).
Help

Ok so help me now!H got a letter from the bank which I sneaked - its his new $8000 limit visa card. - what the f*** do I do now?

I've just found out he's bought a Thai phrasebook and changed the code on his phone. He got home at 2am this morning. WAT help, I really feel I'm been taken for a ride. He says he hate to see me let people walk over him and here i'm doing just that. I feel lower than dirt, I feel like I couldn't love him again for all the lies.I've told a couple of people who has said they have notice he is very strong willed and does what HE wants.I don't feel like I should be putting up with this. I feel like I want him to go.

Seahorse,No time now, but I will come back later.((((((((((((((seahorse))))))))))))))))))Love and light,Jacky

Did a big LB this morning but don't feel like I can cope with this situation. Asked him if he would prefer to go. If he was in some kind of trouble (reassured him I would help him no matter what - and I would) ask him if he was seeing a counsellor - says no he dosen't need to see one as he has his friends.I told him he was really hurting me and that I felt used-he was offended by that. Told him I don't think he can work out his problems while I'm around, but reinforced that it would be his decision to leave, not mine as I want him to stay - which is not altogether true.I know I shouldn't have done all this, but I am frightened, angry, upset, hurt and heartbroken. I do not understand why he is lying to me, I've told him that it would be better if he told me it was over than to string me along like this.I LB'd big time, but I do feel used. I feel like he just wants some stability until after he goes on his holiday ( in 4 weeks) and starts his new job (in 2 weeks)-he told me he loves me and has for 12 years, but it was very clinically said.Am I being conned guys, please help me. I have to wait for ages for the book to arrive in Aust. and I don't know what I'm doing

Seahorse,I just sent an email to your hotmail account. I might be able to help with the book.Love and light,Jacky

Seahorse - sorry this is so late.He's doing all the predictable things. If you stay the course, it's the best you can do right now. Don't plead with him or be needy. In a way, you have to let him go - that is, let him play this out. The odds are that he'll eventually wake up and not believe what he did. This doesn't lessen your pain at the moment, but please find comfort in the fact that your situation is typical.Please be strong.WAT

I really am trying WAT even though it dosen't seem like it. I've bit my tongue and yes I didn't do so good today at it, but I am acting out of fear when I do that. I'm frightened because I've never been faced with the prospect of being alone before therefore i don't know how or if I can survive. I know this probably sounds silly to many people, but I lived such a sheltered life, and never thought it would be otherwise. Funny how life throws these things at you like that.So I have checked things out and now know i can financially. It will be tough though. I really hope you're right WAT and he does come back to me, even though everyone else thinks I'm crazy to want this. But I know it must be different if he does, but this is a long way down the track.I pray everyday for god to resolve this situation. I am working on myself in between moments of utter fear and dread, and every now and then I do like myself. I guess that again is all part of it-learning to be OK with who I am.Thanks WAT, thanks Jacky, thanks to all, i will keep all in my prayers

Seahorse - I hope I am right, too.I am more sure that the affair will not last.Whether or not you get a chance after the affair is over to rebuild your relationship is largely up to you.Two potential outcomes seem to be likely, based on anecdotal evidence:1. the affair ends and he finds safe harbor with you because you did not burn your bridges as the affair progressed. You both get a chance to repair you relationship, but success is not guaranteed, or2. the affair ends and he does not feel comfortable approaching you because he expects you to rub his nose in it. You are right and moral in all respects but in being "right" you prevent a chance at recovery.Do you understand?WAT

Ok, I deleted my original response because it was not a good one. I read JL's post to Seahorse and realized that my suggestion while it may have some feel good points basically would be a major LB of sorts. Seahorse, listen to the 'good' advice here. Some of us sometimes (like me) just want to put things in the WS' face and let them feel our pain. That in itself is not always wrong but the timing might be. 
Take Care,
L. [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ][ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Seahorse,Please do a couple of things. Stop, relax, and realize you don't have any control over him. You do have control over yourself. Everyone here knows you are in pain, but if you could stop and realize all of the attributes YOU have and you have many I think several things will start to happen.1. You will realize you will survive this no matter what.2. You have complete control over your decisions. You can hang in there for awhile, you can leave, you can divorce, you WILL be happy in your life.Seahorse, don't threaten, don't cajole, simply be yourself. See and express the good things in you, and let him deal with what he is doing to himself.You have been getting great advice from WAT, Jackie, and others. But, I know you don't want advice, you want a SOLUTION. There is no SOLUTION, just time and patience and the unfolding of events as you go through them and learn. You will come out of this a much strong woman, and you will come out of this a woman many men will desire. Hopefully, your H is one of them.So settle down a bit and let him start to work on things. I would however caution you as I am sure others already have, to protect yourself financially. Your H is very likely going to try and impress the OW. From the sounds of it, it won't work, but just make sure you are not part of his process in this regard.Hang in there and God Bless.JL

OK, OK, I understand, back off him or loose him forever. I'm really trying hard, but will try harder again (give me strength)-I'm going away to see some friends this weekend by the beach so this will help, get me out of his face. He's gone out tonight - I've not called, etc, etc. JL-I have financial advice. Basically in Aust, if he runs up debts while we are still married, he is liable for them. If either one of us initiate legal separation to divide the property up the debt will become part of common property (ie I will possibly be liable for it). Same with our car, as it is in his name, he can sell it while we are married, but if I want to get some of the money, I would need to initiate legal separation. Either we or a judge could decide how to divide things up. I have called my bank (re housing loan) and have put on the account "both to sign" for everything (this protects both of us from each other and ourselves with our biggest asset, at least). I have opened my own account with a $1000 overdraft on it for emergencies - which I will tell him about. I think now, learning from this experience, i will leave it there for me, just as my security backup - good for the confidence.I know I can afford the house by myself, although if we do break up and go legal its going to be a struggle because of the cost of solicitors - but he says he dosen't want to do that and niether do I, but you've got to at least be prepared. He says he may still move out when he comes back, but again, does not want to legally separate just yet.I hope he is smarter than to try and impress these girl/s(?) with money, but when you are smitten with someone you are usually not thinking straight, and he's really impressed with the image they have shown of being able to spend lots of money (unfortunately this is something that has always impressed my husband). I want to re-iterate I don't want to split up with him. i love him, although the love bank is running very low. I'll try to back off big time. The stuff I do not say to him I will come here and say - just to get rid of it out of my mind. I'm glad in a way I won't see him until tomorrow as it will allow me time to have a good sleep and pull myself together. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img][ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Seahorse - now you're sounding stronger. Good job.To build on what JL said, and referring to Rule #2, it seems to help BSs - it helped me tremendously - to finally realize that it's much easier to make things worse than it is to make things better. In other words, our knee jerk reactions in the early, urgent, very high emotions we experience hardly ever help at all. It's when we get (some) control that we can start to make better decisions and stop rushing around. If BSs could take a slow pill and allow the WSs to progress at top speed, we'd be a lot better off, I think.Go to the beach, contemplate the unstoppable rhythm of the tides, and take comfort in knowing that there are some forces in nature and other people that we have absolutely no control over. The comfort comes when we stop trying to affect these type things. It reminds me of that old joke of "What's the greatest feeling in the world?" It's when you're beating your head up against the wall - and then you stop.WAT

He came home last night, I don't know what happened, but I think he may have had a problems with his (male)friends. I don't want to know really, its none of my business. I can't wait to get to the beach today, I need this so bad, I need to laugh and have some fun! My friends will look after me. I'm trying to work a plan for the next week - a day by day survival plan. Monday night-yoga, Tuesday - movie?, Wednesday night - ? Thursday I have a day off work and will get my hair done and shop in the city. I may go and see my dad. Friday - ? Just about everyone at work notices that there's something wrong (usually because they notice my clothes now hang off me [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) and a couple of (females) have offered to go for a coffee. Normally I wouldn't take up this offer, but I think it would be nice to develop some friendships now, plus I could really use the distraction. I'm not going to pretend it dosen't hurt (i will in front of him), but at least I haven't burst into tears in the last 24 hours - that's a pretty good advancement I think.

g'day, Seahorse - the day-to-day plan sounds real smart. Distraction is SO important.Now I'm gonna be a bit of a nag. Clothes hanging off you? Work mates concerned? I bet you're on the infidelity diet. Yep - I lost over 10 kg in just a few weeks (and I was at my ideal weight to start with). I bet you're not sleeping well, either, hey? Know why? (beyond the obvious answer)? Depression.Know what will help? That medication. You already stated your reluctance to use the medication, but please re-consider it now that some of your "sky-high" emotions have decreased to only "really high."I promise they will help to arrest your involuntary diet and make you a healthier Seahorse. You'll need to be at your best when the opportunity for reconciliation comes.WAT[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ][ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]

The weekend was not all that I had hoped it would be. I guess this is a pattern in my life- expect much and get disappointed later when it dosen't work out. I thought about H for most of the weekend. I was a pathetic lovesick lost soul-one that misses her mate terribly.When I got home last night he hated me for whatever reason, and I got snide remarks about everything. He said he had the best night ever -just the boys. I wish I could have said I had a great weekend too, but I couldn't lie, and I thought better of telling him I missed him.Today, I don't feel so great at all - darned hormones. WAT, I actually like that I'm loosing weight. I look like I did when I was 18, and maybe H will like that too. I'm sleeping better than I thought I would. I just need to have a bit of fun, and I'm trying to do that. I went to the counsellor today and we're making good progress. I seemed to have pinpointed some significant moments in my life that have lead to this situation and identified some thought patterns that are undermining good ideas that I have and destroying my enthusiasm for life in the process.I keep trying to imagine how my life will be without H and can't. I try to think about what I would do, where I would live, what my pasttimes would be, but life seems pointless without him. Everything I've done in my life, I considered him, now I suddenly don't? I wish I could just accept this, but I can't just give it all up like this. One month ago (today) my husband seemed to love me-I can't believe that that's all gone, I just can't.So tonight I will get home and maybe I'll get a few kind words and he will like me a little. I'll think a little bit more about what my life will be without him around, and where I want to go from here.I hope tomorrow will be a better day.

Today is a better day. I was in the bad books last night again, it seemed to be after one of my friends called (this seems to get the same reaction each time, so now I feel bad when my friends ring). I tried to kiss him goodnight, but he didn't want it, then later that night he kissed me (I don't know if he was awake or sleep-kissing?).This morning he was in a better mood. This is a bizarre situation. You truly do not know what you're going to get each day, and if you get a kind word you're high on it. Bizarre.H finishes his job this week and starts a new one next week. One that will (hopefully) be less pressure. I hope this will improve things a bit for us, as I suspect that the pressure of work has been a sizable contributer to this situation (not that i'm letting myself off the hook-there's still much to be done).He is going to his parents this weekend. I'm scared of the outcome, because I know his mum's not that fond of me, and she'll get in his ear - I just hope they keep out of it. In any case, they'll never know the full story as he won't tell and I have no intention of telling if he dosen't want me to.I've let go the last two days. I don't snoop or think about snooping. I try to think about how I will be living my life without him (a bleak thought). I try to think about what I like to do. Its not easy as all that has been pushed away for so long. I've wiped the Bangkok trip from my mind. The credit card thing - what can I do about it? OW - well, it can't last forever, if it is still going, and if it is, what can I do? He still comes home to me at night (for the moment) I guess.BTW I've booked my holiday - I'm going to learn to dive in Cairns - Great Barrier Reef. I told H this and he looked shocked, he said "you're going to have a ball". I'll do my best.

Ok so he's gone out for drinks and I'm not doing so good now. Maybe he's gone with her, maybe he'll hate me again when he gets home. Why is this happening? Of everything I have done, why did I deserve this?Anyway, enough of this, because I'm mad and angry at him, and I've got to get over it before he gets home.

Seahorse,I meant to call you tonight, but ended up on IM with a friend in need instead......she isn't on this site, but she should be!I will call you tomorrow night (Wed) after 8 if that is ok, just to lend an ear if you want one. If not ok, let me know.Love and light,Jacky

Well I was right, he hates me. I don't understand the anger, is this a mid life crisis or normal affair stuff? He is 32 and has a very high pressure job. He travels about an hour to work and is off by 6.30am and home anywhere from 7.30 to 10.30 (for example this evening). He has started "going out for drinks" a lot. I asked him how his day was, he said he released his anger. He threw pens at his glass window in his office and yelled f***. He told the lady who upset him to f*** off b*****.I am seriously worried about my husband people, he was my friend before we were married and will be after were, well, I dare not speak it.About six months ago he went for a checkup and had high blood pressure. His father had a stroke about a year ago, something that scared him a lot. He's helped me through a lot of stuff (I've have had various down times myself). Our relationship wasn't great. He's been talking a lot about regrets and how in the last five years he's had a lot (meaning our marriage). All this stuff with the girl is just incidental, I seriously think my husband is having a nervous breakdown. What can i do, other than stand around and watch it happen?Jacky I'd love for you to call, I was wondering how you were. I hope your friend is OK. The only concern i have is that he gets angry at me after I talk to my friends - I just don't want to put another nail in the coffin right now, but then again who knows when he'll be home anyway?I think he's going to leave me soon, and I'm going to crumble. At least he'll be happy.I told him tonight that i knew he was angry especially with me, but that I love him and I am here if he needs me. What else can I do?[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ][ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

I hate this situation, its so damn frustrating. I just want this to be over. I feel so damn awful

Hi Seahorse. I don't know if this will help or not, but words like this helped me in the beginning: You are not alone.Based on everything you've posted, you're very normal. Yes, you're hurting real bad, you're frustrated, you're angry, and you can't believe what's happening. All normal.The reason I am saying this is because I invite you to continue to read everything you can find on the forum. You will see that there are very many BSs who have been where you are right now, but who have survived and grown from our experiences. If we can do it, so can you, because you've already demonstrated that you're just like us.Your H doesn't hate you. He certainly isn't treating you with the respect and love you deserve, but this is because right now, he isn't really your H. He's his evil twin, so to speak. Remember? The aliens scrambled his brains! Refer to Rule #1 one more time. DO NOT try to make sense out of what he's doing.Stay with us, OK?WAT

Somedays I understand what you're saying and other days it just goes out the window. From hour to hour it changes too. I imagine in time the periods of insanity (mine) will reduce.He has just rung and told me he won't be home tonight and is staying with a male friend. His golf this afternoon had been cancelled, etc, etc. I don't know what to believe anymore, I don't know what is the truth.I'm so lonely, I wish I had gone out tonight.

I think I did an LB today. He didn't come home last night as I said, so I rang him at work this morning and I think I detected a small amount of pleasure to hear me (although I don't want to get my hopes up). During the conversation I asked him if he was coming home tonight, he said "going out drinking, can't drive, blah blah" I agreed he shouldn't drink and drive. He said he would be home for most of day tomorrow until he goes to his parent's place for the night. I said I really missed him, loved him and would like to spent some time with him. He asked about whether I'd booked my trip, etc, when I was going. I said I've booked part of it, why? - "I can ask, cant I" he said This is really starting to p**s me off, I get the feeling something is going down while I'm away - I just hope he's not planning to (cowardly) move out while I'm away - although I must admit, I prefer this than him going to Thailand (for two reasons - OW and safety).I also sent him an email later in the day saying I'd confirmed the trip and that there was still places and I hadn't booked the flight yet. I asked him if he'd decided where he was going - I got no reply for this.Is this a LB? I feel maybe I shouldn't have asked where he was going? I'm at home, quite lonely, trying to distract myself. I hope SAA arrives soon, I could use the help!I am remaining calm with him though. Like when he rang last night, I know I sounded disappointed when he said he wasn't coming home, but he said, I think I stay at (Friends), is that OK? (He's asking me?) I said, "Its up to you, its you're decision". I think there are some shreds of hope there. Surely after 12 years of knowing each other he wouldn't just walk away forever? He's says he's looking toward the future, but surely he thinks about the past too? He told me last week that he would never intentionally hurt me, then two days later he tells me I could loose another 2kgs - I've lost 7kg in 4 weeks - I'm happy with my weight right now, don't really want to loose anymore otherwise I won't be strong enough for my diving holiday - that's where I'm going to Great Barrier reef to learn how to dive! This will be a major blast!BTW, he keeps asking me about where I've been and with who and about being on chat lines (actually I've never been on a chat line- I'm on MB), he's trying to acuse me of having an affair-can you believe the nerve?! Its his guilt talking, isn't it? I keep saying that I'm not seeing or chatting to anyone. Next time, I will tell him he is the only one for me right now. I think some of the new clothes and knickers I've bought have also brought this on - mind you, I've bought them for him and myself - they make me feel good. He wants a sexier Seahorse - he's going to get it! Maybe he's a little worried too? No, that's hoping for too much now. I also bought a book on making love to men, the only problem is he's always out or dosen't want me to touch him - says it makes his decision harder. How do you fulfil a need (an identified need) when he won't let you, says he wants to take it slow. Is he trying to break away from me? All this is too much for me. He's complained about the sex for years now he dosen't want it. Could he be testing me to see if I am for real, if I've really changed. Help me here guys, do I keep trying or back off? Should I try to initiate sex/affection and if he says "no" just leave it (I want to respect him, otherwise its an LB).[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ][ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Today was good until about 2pm, then it all went downhill.Things were going great. H came home at 2am (at least he came home). He came to bed at 6am and things went well... He was nice to me all day, I did all the running around, made him lunch, then suddenly ? alien invasion - he says "even if I do move out after my holiday, I'll still come home to mow the lawn" Great. thanks for that H, you're a legend - I'll be he weekend you know what. Maybe I don't want to live out here so far from the city. Did he ever think about that. maybe I don't want to run a house this size by myself, maybe i want to go out during the week to mister.Later I told him I love him, he told me I was a persistent b***h. I told him I love him and i intend to hang in there and wait for him. Of course, I was pressuring him then (so he said).Then he went off to his parent's place. Didn't call to tell me he made it (its a long drive), so I rang to see if he made it. His mum is worried about him, and i started crying on the phone [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] She said she hope he comes to his senses soon - I told here I would be waiting here for him when he does. thank u god, I've got MIL batting for me!Its not been a good evening. I've drunk a whole bottle of wine, and smoked one of his cigars (they are not very nice - i won't be doing that again), and I think I need to go and sleep it off now. If H acts like this, like an insane, drugged out alien, does it mean that he is still in contact with OW? I've read some other posts, but can't really work it out. I suspect that he probably is somehow, and I'm in denial "he wouldn't do that to me". Its really hard guys, one minute I feel like I'm getting on with life, then I'm back down feeling like I've been bad in my last 10 lives so deserved this somehow. Is this normal? Something tells me it probably is. I wish I could shut down for a while-too many thoughts, not enough action. I'm looking forward to my holiday, but worried I might do something silly. I guess if H dosen't want me in the end, there's got to be some nice man out there who will love me. got to get some sleep I've got study to do and its not getting done.

just an update. H still at parents. I'm still feeling sorry for myself. BIL came over - burst into tears (again) [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] - got to stop doing this. BUT
I didn't have a hangover from last night.then I cleaned my house - it smells good (no cigar residue), it looks good- spotless. I cleaned the fish tank, did the washing, sewed up some clothes (the ones currently falling off me), sunbaked for a while, walked, ate (!!) did a weight-lifting routine and filled out an application to get a motorbike license [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] All things that have been neglected to various extents. What brought this on? I have no idea, but I wish I could bottle it and drink it when needed. I feel I am slowly letting go, more and more each day. Realising i cannot demand, only ask. I cannot presume, only ask. if he needs to go - he knows where the door is, its open to him going out or coming in.The Bangkok thing still bugs me - its hard to get the image of him being loving to someone else out of my mind and it eats at me. I found a teddy bear in his golf bag - I don't know who bought it for who, but its sure not for me - I've got enough bears anyway, plus I have a dog which is better.Would still like an answer from last post if anyone has one to offer. I can't wait till I get SAA - shouldn't be long now. Hope it has most of the answers

H came home v late from parents (expected this). I was happy to see him and said hi, got gday back-thats it-expected this.He actually touched me during the night which I didn't expect - maybe he was asleep at the time [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] This morning he was nicer to me, so I lap it up when it comes, and try to remember these moments during the less nice times.I had what Oprah calls a 'lightbulb moment' yesterday about letting someone go and if they come back to you then you were meant to be together. It really sunk in at a poignent moment. I don't know why, but it gave me a bit of peace. I even got some study done last night (not much but its better than what it has been - zilch).I've finally been (emotionally) able to read other posts, WAT, you're right, its spooky how the excuses, dialogue and plot of these WS are all the same. You can't do much about the fog either, can you. It just seems to come and go with H. Must go now, at work, shouldn't be on here but I need to be.

{{{{{{{seahorse}}}}}}}} I've been checking in on your posts for awhile but never posted. since you were so kind to give me a boost I decided to return the favor! In some ways i feel like were sisters trapped in the same nightmare. Some parts of our story are similar I'm 30 my H is 31- close to you guys. We have been together for 12 years married for four. My H lost his job and i encouraged him to follow his dream to be a vet. He went to another country and fell in love two weeks after being there because " he missed me and she was so much like me" I don't think so!

D-day was on New year's and it has been 2 months. In a way it all got underway without me knowing a thing b/c we were apart. He still called and e-mailed me. told me how much he loved and missed me etc. then when I found out....( he was home in the States for 2 weeks)... he left and cut communication. Very mature. You got a problem? run away! run very far away to a tropical island where the bank puts money in your account and you get to live out your dream all day without reality knocking you over. We'll see. Befor the A, my H left to go to school- it was hard to be alone. But I got over it. Now to find out he might not come back. I am scared but I look and see I've done fine without him so far. I took on all our responsibilities as a couple so he could go to school. Now he's not coming back? He's the one who will have to adjust when he comes back to the states not me. Where is he going to go if he chooses to stay with her? Not here and his family has disowned him. I guess with her family. Again, we'll see.
I still have hope. From my situation, I give to you... LIVE FOR SEAHORSE!!!! Go out and find yourself. You are in school, that's great. I kept taking classes and went up to 75 credits beyond my masters. Now I am looking to go back for another degree. Take other classes. yoga is awesome. I take it too. Try art classes. Cooking, horseback riding, scuba, tai-chi, get a black belt in karate, take a creative sex class (on line), learn a new language, go running, get your dog involved in agility training or obedience classes, get another dog, get a boat, go fishing, get your pilots liscence, ride a roller coaster over and over, go sky diving,(that gets your mind off things)! I've done most of these and plan on doing the ones i haven't yet (the black belt, sky diving, pilot's liscence).
The main thing is to live for you. Go out and keep busy doing what you like. back off your H. Don't cry or let him know how much he hurt you. There's no use talking to an alien right now. Let him go. But Keep yourself a safe place to come back to. Be nice -but mysterious. He's acting weird. So you can too. Keep him guessing. I always have a smile on my face. Not always a sunshine happy face, more a Mona Lisa. A bit of mischief. People are always wondering what I'm up to. I've done it for years. Very alluring. Be more confident around him. don't rub it in. I told my H (at the advice of Redhat -an old poem I had forgotten. you know it.)
"When you love something set it free, if it comes back to you it was yours. If it doesn't it was never ment to be. Hon, I love you and I am setting you free. I know you need time and so do I. I am willing to work on our marriage when you are ready but for now I am living for myself and changing me for me. You can't change others. So I am working on myself right now. I thank you for the opportunity because these changes I am making are permanent and I like who I am becoming. ( i have a feeling he does not like who he is becoming. guilt, guilt, guilt) I hope ssome day you give me the chance to show you. But for now just know that I love you and I am your friend and I'm here if you need me. I think we've had a great 12 years and if your as willing as I am we can take this experience and use it to make us stronger and better. We will never go back to the way we were and I don't want to-it got us here. Just know that I love you and I'm not willing to give up on something so precious and special as us. But we both have to be ready for that. So we have time."
That was really the only time we addressed the A since then it has been limited contact. Two e-mails and 3 phone calls in 2 months. But like I said. I am living for me and i like who I've become. i can't get a divorce or make any changes until my love bank runs out and for some insane reason it is still on the full side. As long as my love is there I keep going. Plan A all the way. And so should you. Focus on you. I am sorry I went on so long but I can really identify with your story. Being in limbo sucks but know that I'm floating right along side you hon! And I'm here for a limbo hug whenever you need one!
Forgiver

HELP!H rang me at work, he said his father had called him because his brother told him he was moving out, etc, etc and what the f**k had I been telling people.I said that they had pressed me and I told them, that I was very upset. He said I had no business and that I should have told them nothing. I told him that I thought he had told his parents everything (of course he wouldn't tell them about the A- he dosen't want to look like a pr**k).Then I said that I realise that whatever I do right now is the wrong thing and that he is just looking for an excuse to hate me. I reminded him that I love him and committed to working it out with him BUT I'M NOT GOING TO LIE FOR HIM ANYMORE! If people ask I'm going to tell. I told him I haven't told them about the A and won't.He said he hadn't decided to move out, I said I didn't say he was, but that I thought he would have told his parent about it.He seemed to back off then, saying that whatever else I say now just makes it worse, so I should just shut up, so I said I will see you at home.This is not on, he cannot ring me at work and upset me and he's going to get told this - in a nice way. I need to set some boundaries guys -about what is and isn't on. Forgiver, thank you thank you thank you. Thank you for being you. You are truly a wonderful person. You must have so many wonderful experiences. I wish I had your courage and get up and go. I'm working on it, but not quite there yet, still struggling with myself and self esteem and a WS. I feel like I really f**cked up guys. Probably I shouldn't have said anything to BIL. Its too late now, and if H decides he wants to leave because I love him and am so upset that our marriage is dying then so be it. Its him that gave up - not me. I'm soooo angry right now, I feel like ripping up every piece of paper in my office(boss would have a heart attack - thats ok we work near a hospital).PLease, someone who knows what there doing, I need some advice about all this. I feel like I'm way out of my depth. I feel like I'm being disrespected and he was the one who said he is sick of people walking over me. So why I am letting him do it? Shouldn't I be standing up to him about some of this, Orchid, WAT, Redhat, anyone Help!!!!

H came home yesterday (at a reasonable time) and there was no mention of yesterday's little fiasco (he didn't bring it up and I certainly wasn't going to, but I was ready with what I thought in case he did). He actually made me dinner (a toasted sandwich, but I still think this is a good sign!) We chatted about day to day stuff, his new job, watched a bit of TV, his brother came over (gulp!) but no incident, no talk re relationships. Good, all 'no stress'. We were intimate - it was nice.This morning he seemed ok, but while I was dressing, he was sitting on the bed. I took his face in my hand and asked him if he was ok. I looked into his eyes. There was sadness there, I can see that now. I think he is probably quite depressed and dosen't know how to deal with the way he feels right now. I kissed him and said 'chin up'-I realised how much I really do care about him and I am trying forgiving him for his recent actions. The behaviour of the last few weeks is not that of the H I know. Its the Alien software WS V1.1. The only version they've put out from what I've read on this forum!I've been where he has been (as far as depression and anger is concerned) I often wonder if his need to make me happy and inability to has partly led him to this current mess. So, since I've been there (and he was there for me) I must, as a true friend, be there for him. No matter what the outcome of all this bull****, crappy, stinking mess, I must be there for the person I care about. I think he needs me to be patient, caring and there when it all falls apart. I will be. I'll keep reading, I'll keep posting and no doubt there are going to be days when I don't feel like any of it and will be sad myself, but I must focus on what is real and that is my H, myself and love - all this other stuff isn't. I figure that the only way right now I can show him that I love him is (as everyone has been telling me) to let him go, let him live in this fantasy world, let him self destruct but be there when it does - be the hero as WAT said. If I push I add more pressure and I just don't think he can mentally or emotionally handle any more - he's worn out, hence the turn to the fantasy world where the beautiful Thai girl services all your needs, makes you feel special, pays your way for no other reason than she loves you (I still don't like it, but we all have fantasies, unfortunately he has chosen to live his).I am working on forgiving him, and eventually I will try to forgive her too, but that is a long way down the track - I can't say when. I haven't lost sight of myself in all this. I figure if I finish my course and follow this dream, I will be happier. If I follow all my dreams I will be happier. Then I will not fall into depressions and cope better. Then I can give more to others. The times I have alone, when he's not there and I sit with the pain are when I seem to see this the most. I have to be my own person now. I have to stop being what everyone else wants.Anyway these are my current thoughts. I have read a couple of posts that WS's have written and it helped me get here. I read the notable post by (can't remember who) but it was about her plan A - she did so well, and I'm going to keep reading to keep on track. I review what everyone in this thread has said to me and each time a little more get past the pain and shock.I am reading all I can now. I can take it in now. Thank you all for being patient and hanging in there with me. Seahorse [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Seahorse,You did good ... you set the boundry on "I'M NOT GOING TO LIE FOR HIM ANYMORE!" ... WS will lies, deceives, manipulates and do anything under the sun to serve one thing ... A or selfishness. <blockquote>quote:<hr>This morning he seemed ok, but while I was dressing, he was sitting on the bed. I took his face in my hand and asked him if he was ok. I looked into his eyes. There was sadness there, I can see that now. I think he is probably quite depressed and dosen't know how to deal with the way he feels right now.<hr></blockquote>
Your plan A is working ... making him confused. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] You are doing great ... you are start settling now. Hang in there and vent in here [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

Thanks Redhat, I really needed that encouragement. Me being "normal" and letting go has really difused some tension, so maybe he is thinking. I imaging that me being in some nice knickers and bra (with my lovely new figure) helped a little too [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] (EN - H needs wife to look attractive! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )Tonight when he got home: He ws nice to me, but, he's going to be in the city for the next few days and nights for his new job, plus then he's going out with mates, etc, so he needs to stay in the city overnight. For the past two days it keeps extending out a day (we'll see if this really happens). I've just said, "yep, makes sense to me darling. Hope you enjoy it, should be great fun, Belgium Beer Bar - great sounds wonderful". He says: "I'll be fine so don't worry about me". I replied "I won't, you're a big boy and can look after yourself". I was not sarcastic, *****y or mean. I was sincere and nice, and very pleased with myself [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Then he went on (a bit later) about how much fun he's going to have, etc, etc. Again I said, should be great, blah blah blah. It was like he was trying to work me up, get a reaction or make me jealous.I think you're right Redhat, he's starting to think. I guess I must be careful here though. I do not want to give him the impression I don't care. One thing that is hard to get out of my brain is the image of him with this girl. Him having special songs about her, buying her gifts and just being 'in love' with her. It bugs me. I feel angry that she has got something I didn't. Is this selfish?BTW - I have not cried for at least 24 hours! I feel great about this. I even managed a few smiles today. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] So now I will have the rest of the week for me. Scarey, got to start planning things. Got to start reading again.

Hi Seahorse - sorry I haven't been around lately, but I haven't forgotten you. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
If H acts like this, like an insane, drugged out alien, does it mean that he is still in contact with OW? I've read some other posts, but can't really work it out. I suspect that he probably is somehow, and I'm in denial "he wouldn't do that to me". <hr></blockquote>Odds are he's still in contact, but based on what I've read on this forum, it's not necessarily so. Remember, his bizarre behavior is caused by him - not her. The affair is a symptom - a fever - of the real disease. So, contact or not, your behavior should be the same. Fix your contributions to the mess, demonstrate your improvements, and then find some way to occupy yourself while the affair runs its course. Then he'll need your help to eradicate the real problems - assuming he's willing to fix them. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Its really hard guys, one minute I feel like I'm getting on with life, then I'm back down feeling like I've been bad in my last 10 lives so deserved this somehow. Is this normal? Something tells me it probably is. <hr></blockquote>You bet it's normal. Many BSs look inwardly and initially get consumed with self doubt - and no wonder. The shock we've been dealt is so horrific that we cannot imagine how our spouses could willingly do this. How could anyone do this? So a normal reaction, in my opinion, is to look inwardly for an explanation - nothing outside of us is making sense so it must be something we've done or something we aren't capable of understanding.Keep hanging in there and don't do anything "silly."WAT[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]

Thanks for checking in on me WAT. Don't worry, I'm not about to go out and have an affair or anything silly like that. I know it woule screw everything up big time.48 hours and no tears must be a record for the last 5 weeks! I think I'm doing well right now. Plan to go so an Italian festival on the w/e, and check out vespers (these are bikes btw).Last night, when in bed, I chatted with H a lot. He talked a lot (EN - conversation) He got onto the subject of how I look at the moment and then came out with "so you had any offers?"Now i think he meant from men, and I can only read a few things into this. 1.He is still trying to find out if I'm having an affair - guilt on his part. 2.He wants me to move on and hopes I've found someone nice or 3.he's getting a bit worried that I'm going about my life. I like the latter [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Means he may be starting to think.I told him "no,it dosen't matter what others think. I am enjoying how i am right now". It was the truth, and he kept quiet after that-wasn't expecting it I'd say, was probably expecting me to rub his nose in it and say 'yes heaps'. This morning he hugged me in bed in a way he has done for many years. He hasn't done that for a long time. It was nice.no call from him today or tonight and I didn't expect it and am not really worried. I seem to always be on the net or busy anyway.

Seahorse,
I am happy you are getting better [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . You start learning how to be a Venusian too !!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] . Yes, you have to be a step ahead of martians. Part of getting on w/ life is withold some information ... make your martians crazy.You have to take care of yourself too. Reward yourself w/ small thing like getting your nail done or go shooping and get a new parfume. In his fog, H doesn't care so you have to take care yourself.RH

Hi everyone. Thanks RH, took your advice and went and bought myself two nice tops. (No I'm not going out and spending all our money, but it does make me feel a little better).NEWSFLASH
While I was doing (above) I got a t/phone call from H (I had left him a message saying that all was fine and that I would talk soon and have a good night, etc). His message said he was fine, etc, and that he would talk soon and I love you. What was that? I replayed message twice to make sure, and it was definitely said. He said it!! I haven't heard it in weeks.I know that I shouldn't get my hopes up yet, as tommorrow he may not feel that way, but I can't help but be a little happy! At the very least he still cares some - there's a shread of hope there! Oh god, I'm so nervous now.Now it is more important than ever to continue with Plan A. It would be so easy to fall back to how everything was pre-A, but it must not happen. Have to demonstrate those changes, right WAT. Now is the time to work harder! It looks like I have a small fragment of his attention. Now I gotta really be me! Bring out the real Seahorse.Plan A, looks like its working. Gotta do more reading, just not right now - I'm at work and I need my job.I still remind myself that this is early days. I am trying to consider how I would be if he was not around, and face that this could still be a possibility. Life has many twists and turns...

Hi Seahorse - I'm glad you got a boost. Proceed with caution, though. You are correct that the next time you talk with him that the Mothership may be back in total control.We don't call this a rollercoaster for nuthin'.Remember to think long term. Even IF he repeats those words today - you can bet a cold VB that he'll say hurtful things plenty more times. It's hard NOT to react to every exchange, but you can't. You'll drive yourself nuts. So, take your boosts when you can, but always remember that you can't draw conclusions on each episode - you have to assimilate the trend.Keep up the good work,
WAT

Hi Seahorse,
Glad to see you are doing better. I'm proud of you for going out and doing things for yourself. Also, for the confidence you emmit when H questions you. It is good that you smile more and have not cried. I told you it would get better. You can be happy with yourself. By doing things for yourself and getting intouch with yourself you give a positive out look that shows. You feel good and others around you see it too.
Keep it going! Remember it is very early and you are already having good days with youurself. keep that positive attitude and you will be amazed at what comes your way!
Forgiver

Hi Again, thanks both of you. I did get a boost, so why do I feel so flat today? Its too soon that's why, and even though he said "I love you" I know that its just all part of the program. I can't honestly say it back to him right now-this is concerning me, shouldn't I feel something towards him? I feel very depleted. Maybe I'm just tired.I love and care for my husband very much, but I realise that the passion has gone from our marriage, and that really hurts. This is something we have to work on, otherwise I cannot commit to life with him. I've realised that life was getting stale and boring. There are so many things I want to do, and they're not big things either, but H was either too tired or not willing to do them. Like going away for fun weekends, acting out fantasies, just stuff like that-the little things that make life interesting. Is it any wonder our sex life was dying, he was so unwilling to try anything adventurous? He stated he hates to see people walking over me, but he was the main offender. He lost respect for me, and I allowed it to happen. I can't live with someone who dosen't respect me.I'm so nervous about him coming home, I'm frightened that everything will be different or even worse, that it will be the same. Why do I feel this way? Again, I guess its normal, part of the ride and the learning experience. I've always hated rollercoasters! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Update: Had a ok weekend. Went to the Italian festival with friends - had a great time, entered a raffle to win a vesper - I hope I win!!Took my mind off "the mess" for a while.Finally received SAA-Thank god!H has been ok with me, just the usual, a few cutting remarks here and there, nothing that dosen't make my resolve stronger! I figure that if he has to search for reasons to not like me, then i must not be too bad at all - especially if the things he comes up with are the bloody worst he's got! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I've been fulfilling EN's (running the house, SF, looking attractive, admiring when possible - although this, I must say, is a little hard at the moment,conversation,honesty, and sometimes affection-when he lets me - I don't push) I presume all this is good, but I only do the one's I want to. I'm not doing anything that I really don't want to anymore. All the time I'm trying to avoid LB, but occasionally one slips in and you don't realise you've done it till, its too late!I've not mentioned the R, the A, the upcoming holiday, or anything related. If he says I'm going out, I say "have a great time". If he says I had a few drinks I say "you're a big boy and can do what you want". He's out at the moment, I don't know what this week holds. I've learnt to expect nothing from life, from him, or myself. Its funny, but life's better like this (releasing control, not expecting anything). I misss doing things with him, like going out for dinner or coffee, going to movies. There's been none of that for nearly 2 months. Its sad, I miss it.Still can't carry on like this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
I figure that if he has to search for reasons to not like me, then i must not be too bad at all - especially if the things he comes up with are the bloody worst he's got! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>EXACTLY!!!!Seahorse, you're getting it!!If you can recognize trivial accusations coming from a WS, you've spotted the Mothership. When they're REALLY stretching to scrape up excuses for their decisions, and you recognize it, you're gaining control of yourself.I'm sure all WSs have legitimate gripes - we BSs have faults and made mistakes that contributed to the favorable environment for an affair - and many WSs have valid, serious complaints such as physical abuse or other grossly unacceptible behavior of BSs. But many, if not most, BSs aren't guilty of these serious offenses. WSs in these cases haven't a clue as to how trivial their criticisms of their BSs are. They have to search and rewrite history to come up with rationalizations for their behavior. They HAVE to. The Mothership demands it.Seahorse - keep up the good work.WAT

Thanks for your support WAT.Just here today to vent really. H got under my skin last night with a comment, but I told him it was ridiculous. Its still got to me though. LAter, he talked about me going to the festival and finding an Italian man, I told him that its him. He's the one. He told me no, he isn't the one. That he dosen't want to go back to the ways things were (I admit I tried to control him in the past, I used to get angry because he wouldn't ring to tell me where he was, wanted him to come home). I pointed out that in the last 6 weeks I have not stopped him from doing anything, not criticised when he drank too much, let him go. He admitted he noticed. He was still worried it may go back to how it was. I told him that our marriage can never go back to how it was for both of us. neither of us were happy and that I'm quite happy with the way things are right now because I worry less (yeah, right!). I told him I don't expect ANYTHING and that whatever he decides I will accept. At that point Alien V1.1 kicked in and the stress program ran, so I backed off.In bed he allowed me to hug him (and scratch his back-dosen't mind that at all!)I must say, it made me down this morning, but then I rang him at work and he was nice again, I just need to get back on track and remember not to take all this personally, after all, he's clutching at STUPID EXCUSES and is very confused!Started on SAA this morning, don't think they had the Soulmates type affair, although I guess I'll never be sure. I hope not!I will think about why the comment last night got to me so much, there's obviously something there for me to resolve.In the meantime, back to work and doing what I have to do. Its now only two weeks till my holiday and presumably H moving out with a friend (male). I don't know how I feel about this, won't all the hard work be undone? Everyone here says "keep them close" but I may not have a choice soon as I can't stop him from leaving. This will be a big downer for me, I can see it coming, but haven't wanted to think about it. I'll pray he dosen't leave, and that I can survive if he does.Bye[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

I'm posting here as well GQII as I'm VERY desperate! I've just found condoms in his wallet. I am so upset and right now I'm in tears as I write this. He was in a particularly bad mood when he got home, tried to see what was wrong, snooped and found condoms. - I'm shattered. I didn't think it could hurt this much again but it does. Someone tell me why I'm doing this. Why don't I just kick him out?Is it bait or does he intend to use them? Why is he doing this to me? I asked him if there was anything he wanted to tell me. He's planning on moving out, I asked him if he was planning this while I was on holidays. I said I deserve respect and to be told if something affects me. He said he was still looking but hadn't decided. I asked him if he moved was he planning an open marriage because if he was I need to know. I told him if he was, that I wanted the property settled. I told him I was committed to this marriage and I still love him. He just keeps pushing me away.I'm hurting so bad AGAIN right now, I don't think I can stand it. I hate this I hate life I hate him. I hate myself I hate everything. Why is he doing this to me? I've never done anything so bad that I deserved this bull ****ing ****.I'm getting out of here tonight I had it. I can't do this. He's got all sorts of things - creams for cold sore and stuff like that. What if he gives me his filth?I feel like wrecking the place. so I'm going and will come back when rational. I want to go to my dads, but he's going to ask questions and I don't want to tell him about this. I'll just sleep in the car, hopefully, with gods grace, someone will come along in the night and kill me and I won't have to suffer this bull**** ever again.I was doing so well, I was trying so hard, but this is just too much. Where did the love go? Where's the respect gone? I don't deserve this. I just don't. I deserve better than this.

Seahorse - I replied to your other post on GQII. I recommend you move all your posting to that board to hopefully get more responses.WAT

Oh seahorse!!
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
Hang in there baby! It's a down day. this too shall pass. I wish you could come and stay at my place. Our dogs could play together. It's getting to you. And it will you have every right to feel completly lost. But get it out of your system. SCREAM!! play music really REALLY loud! Sing until your lungs burst. Get all theat negative energy out. Pound a pillow, Go running as fast as you can. Do sit ups, push ups. Go crazy. But get it out. Look at what he is doing to you right now. How it makes you feel. It sucks. Take control and try not to let him gat to you. LET HIM GO! And move on with your plan A. Live for yourself. You were doing great from yur earlier post. You didn't let his comments get to you. When he wants to go out you tell him to go and have a good time. you should go out too. Don't let him see you stay home all the time.

There was a great post about a woman who did a 180 on her H. She would go out to concerts or get really dressed up to go out dancing. Sometimes she would go out other times she went to a convient store and drank coffe in the parking lot for hours- just to make her H think she was having a good time without him. I'll try to find that post. it may be too early for you to do a 180 but the post will keep you laughing and on the edge of your seat. Does anyone else know the post I am talking about? Please don't sleep in the car. Please go to a friends or just stay home. I wish I could be there for you. Believe me I feel your pain. We all do. But remember too- it's still early. Give it time and let him go. Live for Seahorse- she's the most important person.
Forgiver

Seahorse,
Where are you? Hope you are doing better. I am thinking about you. Let us know.
Forgiver

I'm back here again seems easier to follow. H came home yesterday. All went well. I asked him what his intentions were re staying. He said that he had hoped he could stay until Tuesday morning as he will be travelling for work after that. So, remembering my boundaries I said I was happy for him to stay as long as I was treated with respect. He said ok and that he respected the email i sent him about this. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] We started talking practical because of the situation, but it ended up R. This was ok, I didn't initiate it he did and we spoke well.He will be moving out after his trip to Bangkok [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] which I am still pissed off about, but there is nothing I can do to stop him.I told him that I think it will do us both good. I listened to things he said and told him things I was doing (getting a second job, going for a bike licence) I also told him that as soon as i can I will be out of this house (due to certain circumstances this will be an indefinite time). This shocked him (I could see it) and he quickly assured me that he was only moving out for six months (buying time in my opinion).He questioned why I have "fixed" some things about myself when for years I was in and out of counselling and didn't change. All I could answer was the because of the situation I found myself in (in shock and pain) I had no choice but to look at what was wrong. I feel that this whole thing has been parrallel to a near death experience for me. I had no choice to look and change - life is too short.He told me he regretted what happened Monday night (re threatening me, the yelling, etc) and that he dosen't want it like this. I agreed and told him how much i respect him (actually I respect who HE is, not the other strange person that has taken him over).Other good things: we went shopping to buy luggage for his trip [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I gave my opinions and even bought the damn things. He even asked me if it was ok if he went to the supermarket with me because he thought I looked sexy (now THAT's something I haven't heard for a while) and even asked for a good morning kiss while we were in there. now I know not to get my hopes up, but this has helped a lot. I'll take these moments anyday as this is the man I married. Although I am scared of him moving out (he may never come back), I feel that it will give both of us the space we need. I feel I am getting a little stronger now. The shock is starting to fade, although the hurt does come and go (like all day yesterday at the meditation class). I've just got to find that strength in me to keep it going.

Good job. I hope you see why he treated you a little better. It's because of your Plan A. Do you understand that there is NO WAY any of this would have happened if you had instead acted like a raving lunatic - attacking, accusing, threatening, screaming, etc. - all the things that seem so "right" to do in reaction to his crime?I think the most significant thing you described is his "6 month" move. This describes where he really is:Squarely on top of the fence.Your actions have made him far less sure of his intentions. I believe he's questioning his decisions. This doen't mean he's gonna totally change his mind in the near term, but he's at least considering alternatives.So what do you do?Keep doing the same things you've been doing. Most of all, DO NOT lovebust. One "aw shucks" can erase 1000 "at-a-girls."
Liz, I think you can now claim the upper hand. This doesn't mean you're gonna be successful anytime soon, but you do understand a whole lot more about what's going on than he does. Knowledge is power. You understand FAR more about yourself than you did just a few weeks ago. On the other hand, he's groping in the dark. He doesn't have the knowledge you've gained from this site and hasn't reaped the rewards of introspection.BTW, it's very common for WSs to ask, "Why now." You gave a perfect answer - you were honest.Keep up the good work but please understand that this is a rollercoaster. You WILL get disrespected, insulted, and treated like poop again without warning. He WILL act like a full on SOB again. Try to look beyond these momentary setbacks. Expect them as part of the beast. This way, hopefully you'll be better able to handle them when they occur.WAT[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]

Yeah WAT, I can see how it worked better, he confided a lot more about his trip (not much, but more than I knew). My instincts are really telling me not to get angry to what he does right now.I am struggling with this Bangkok trip thing, I don't want it to be my undoing (I think I have one week before he goes). The trip is getting to me. I feel like my whole marriage rest on what the girl/girls does. I might post this on GQII as well, just for a bit of a vent - get it all out here, so to speak.He's going to be in the jungle, riding elephants, in Phuket, etc etc. This is stuff I would have died to do with him, and damn it he knows that. That's what really hurts. He knows that and he's going with someone else. I told him that on Monday (during the fight) but have not mentioned it since.How do I get this out of my mind? How do I handle it when he comes back and tells me all about it? It will be so hard not to feel jealous. I read lostva's post about anger and pain. OK, so when I feel the anger rising, I stop and recognise the pain and feel it. The anger goes - that's something, I'm learning to control it. Maybe practice will make perfect by the the time the situation arises?He was a bit foggy again this morning. I suspect he spoke to her again last night. The moving out thing, it will be hard and easier at the same time.WAT, when I spoke to him on Saturday I mentioned something about him falling in love with me many years ago. He thought I had said that he was in love with this girl. He says (fairly convincingly) that he's not in love with her. I struggle with this. If he's not in love, or infatuated with her, then why is he risking our marriage. (I feel a she's not the problem, she just a symptom coming on - is this right?)They talk about the fog with WS, but being a BS can be so confusing if you listen to all their crap!Liz

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
 He says (fairly convincingly) that he's not in love with her. I struggle with this. If he's not in love, or infatuated with her, then why is he risking our marriage. (I feel a she's not the problem, she just a symptom coming on - is this right?)They talk about the fog with WS, but being a BS can be so confusing if you listen to all their crap!
<hr></blockquote>There you go again, thinking like a rational person! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Re-read Rule #1. Remember?You're right about her being a symptom. She's the fever of the virus. Bad part is that he has to treat the fever first - getting rid of her - before you both can fight the real disease.I found it helpful to "listen to all their crap." Once you understand it for what it is, it's almost reassuring in a sadistic way, because it shows how much control the Mothership still has. You HAVE to listen to detect when they start making sense - it's then that you know that the fog may be lifting.WAT

WAT, I have been to lawyer this morning. Oh dear how awful. She pushed for me to get rid of him, etc. After a while she could see it wasn't my thing. This is what she wants me to do.Ask him re the financial situation - get specifics of what he intends to do esp re trip. I feel this is not an LB, because I have the right to know this info.The answer to the question should be how I decide eg if he won't tell me anything, she says becareful and protect myself - I ask her to send him a letter to split finances.If he is specific then ? she is worried that with the new job and the trip he may tried to hide money, or send it elsewhere.This has left me fairly deflated. I hope he does the right thing. i really don't want to go down this track. Please, I really need prayers now. I hope god is listening.As far as the rational thinking goes - that's my science degree I afraid, even now and then i have to try and turn it off.Liz

Liz - I'm not an attorney, much less an Aussie one, but I'll bet you can remove half of all your cash in joint accounts and open your own accounts in your name only. The problem will be that you have to tell him what you're doing so he knows how much money he has to spend on his adventure. Also, if he overdraws a checking account, I bet you'll be equally liable for it - same goes for credit card charges if they're jointly held accounts.Remember that your lawyer IS NOT a marriage counselor. OF COURSE she wants you to get rid of him. She likely doesn't know or believe that recovery from infidelity is frequent and there's nothing in it for her if you don't go through a divorce.Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and lawyers are from Uranus. Sorry, I couldn't resist. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] WAT

LOL. Actually, she wasn't as bad as all that, she was pushing for financial separation and then work it out. I was prepared for the hard nose type that wants to hang em up by the you know what.H has gone away till tomorrow night, so I can't talk to him till at least Thursday, which is good as it gives me time to think. I agree, I need to get a straight answer on what he is spending on his trip and make some agreement re the moving out of home bit.The account thing I can do, while we are together we are responsible for our own debts and assets, but once we start a separation that's when it changes (ie I will have to pay for him to go visit her [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I've set up my own account, maybe I put more money into that and let him know. WAT, I feel like I want to tell him that although I support him going by himself on holidays, think through things etc, that I'm not ok with his choice of destination. Is this an LB? To be honest I don't know. On the weekend I asked him if when he goes is he still married and do all the ethics apply. I know I know, I cringe now when I think about it. But then I helped buy the luggage etc etc, I haven't said anything since. Its stressing me.Maybe I should just shut up now and not say anything to him? Help!He was home again last night. We are being civil, etc, even having conversations. He even asked me to pick him up from the airport tomorrow night-I didn't think he would. I could read a whole lot into this - good and bad, but I'm trying not too.Saw the psych last night. He believes H is quite depressed (based on what I've told him), but seems to think I'm coping OK, its usually the other way round, but I guess now I HAVE to cope. I hope H gives up this idea that his friends are all he needs, he needs professional help.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
I feel like I want to tell him that although I support him going by himself on holidays, think through things etc, that I'm not ok with his choice of destination. Is this an LB? To be honest I don't know.<hr></blockquote>Not necessarily an LB - as long as you deliver it without accusing. I encourage you to tell him how you feel - in a calm, controlled manner if you can. If you can't do it calmly, don't tell him, or write it down and give him something to read while he's gone.There's an idea!Write him a Plan A letter. I'll dig up mine and send it to you. Fix it up for your situation and send him packing with it. You can lay out your position and he'll have it for reference when he's away.Back on the LBs - rmember, he determines what is and isn't an LB. You and I can determine what SHOULDN'T be an LB, but remember who we're dealing with - an alien abductee. Hard to predict what he'll think about something.Dave

Dave, thank you for the letter, I will definitely rework it for our situation. Can I ask you to look over it when I'm done? I'll send by email. I will slip it in the bag so that he finds it when he's unpacking over there -better late than never?This LB thing is hard. I LB'd him last week asking if I can open a bottle of port! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Sometimes I think no matter what you do, it just dosen't matter, especially when they are in this state.I was surprised this morning by a thought I had. I thought this man has put me through so much. I've lost friends over less than this. Last week I didn't think there was any love left, but I still have something there for him, I realised that this morning. How can this be after all this? It would be so much easier to cut him off completely, but I can't. He's my friend, underneath it, that's what its all about. Very confusing.

WAT, sent the letter, really not sure about it. I feel like I'm a traitor - seeing lawyers, opening mail and hiding it. H is slipping up, leaving things where i find them - such as garbage bins [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe all this is wearing him down, or maybe he just dosen't give a damn because he might leave me anyway. Why do I have to care about this. If I was a heartless ***** I could just walk away. I really must get out this week, I can see i need to do that.H comes home tomorrow, will do all I can to look good, feel good, be good.

Dear Seahorse,
I've been reading your thread, so sorry for what you are going through. Having been there myself, I know how bad it hurts.
You are coping amazingly, you are really strong, doing a great Plan A.
I don't think that Plan A means being a doormat. I think that exploring a financial separation is wise. The key is to discuss these issues with respect.
I think that it is good to stand up for yourself in a respectful way. For example, when you told him you wouldn't lie for him. You worried that you may have been risking the relationship, but actually you set boundaries for him. He is like an out of control child right now.
After all there are consequences for actions, like it or not. When my H wanted to move out and spend the summer exploring his feelings for me and OW, I made it clear that it was his choice to do so. I also made it clear that when he moved out, we would set up a legal separation with visitation with our 3 children. I even sat down with him to write up a few samples. It was a dash of cold water in his face, I think he imagined coming and going as he pleased, popping in to see the kids when he felt like it. In the end, he never moved out.
Your Plan A is good, because when your H takes his trip, he will have those memories of you standing strong and loving. His trip may not be the dream that he thinks it will be, and if he sees OW there, the reality may not stand up to the fantasy.
Just wishing for strength for you... I know what you're going through is so hard.

Hi all, WAT, thanks for looking over the letter. I just found out that I don't have time to post it. I rang him this morning in Perth (he's on business) he told me he flies out Friday after work, my heart sank. I said I didn't know. (Its Wednesday morning here). So he's gone from 22/3 till 8/4. I asked if I could see him off at the airport - he said I was welcome to come, that all the lads would be there. I said I don't care about the lads (and how rowdy they will get) but I really want to say goodbye to him. He said that was fine.I asked him about the finances, he was honest, he told me about the $8,000 limit and said it was for emergencies - I'll still be wary. He told me how much he was spending on the trip and I made it clear that what he was spending on his is what I will spend on mine - its only fair (sounds a bit childish I guess, but this whole situation is just ridiculous so who's to say anything about me).He even said he was going to buy me a gift-I'd rather have him actually (I didn't say that to him).I basically told him what I needed to say that I am glad he is going on holidays and that I understand he needs to go by himself. I said that I wish I was going with him that I would love to do those things too, and that he has chosen the destination, but I wish he wasn't going there. He quickly turned it back to me - I'm going on my trip blah blah blah, but I think he got the message. Even said maybe we can go back together one day...how can he tease me like this? This is so painful for me. I can hardly bear it. He talks about our future, but has said he dosen't want it.We both agreed that the weekend was good, that the talk we had was good. I asked him if we could keep the communication lines open that it was important. He didn't agree or disagree.espoir I hope your right, I hope the trip is not all he hopes. I want him to be safe, I would like him to have fun, but at the same time I want it to be a total disaster (thats the taker I guess). I pray so hard that god will help me through this. I pray he will bring him back to me, but know this is futile prayers.I can see the next three weeks are going to be like Chinese water torture - slow and painful. I've really got to plan these weeks well, got to keep more occupied now than ever. Just feel the pain, let it go. Keep praying. I have never learnt a lesson so hard in all my life. I hope I never have to go through this again.

Picked H up from Airport after business trip very tired, but he has been nice to me for a few days now. He was great this morning too.Still unsure whether to give letter - scared it will be too much. Tonight is our last night alone together, maybe forever I don't know, its all so uncertain. I'm calmer today, maybe I'm starting to accept and let go, maybe. I've got to be careful not to be too clingy tonight, don't want to put him off, got to remember to back off, etc.Tomorrow I see him off at the airport. At least he agreed I can do that, I'd be in a real state otherwise. This morning he changed the time though, last night he said 7.30pm, this morning he said 8.30pm-I'll die if he tells me not to come at all. I'm not going to think about it. I'm going to stay happy. This is my last 36hours of Plan A while he's at home, after that its from a distance. Forgiver - help!I gave him a big hug in bed this morning, he seemed to like it. I think this is all good signs the fog has cleared. I don't know for how long. I guess you take the good when it comes, because it sure does give you a lift.I've taken to retail therapy by the way. When I feel down I go and buy myself clothes or lipstick or shoes. It helps a bit, and I need some clothes that fit and I intend to stay at this weight because I like myself this way!

Just venting again. Got a call from H he accidently called my mobile -he didn't know I was on the phone. Heard some things and am reading a real lot into it, about girls and money, he paid about $100 bucks for something, I don't know what. Trying to calm down right now. He just called me back, asked me what I heard, told him I heard enough, was very secretive, but probably sounded funny. Told him some of it, not relted to him. **** I don't want this to happen now! I don't want it all my hard work to go downhill now. Don't want to LB, need to control reactions better, keep working hard. Why does this stuff happen, will someone tell me that? God keeps testing, at times I'm failing, this is one of those times. Downhill again, down hill, always bloody downhill.I need to breathe and refocus. I wish I was someone else right now, someone who was good at this.Then again, maybe I'm puttting too much emphasis on every exchange. That could be because I'm so frightened that he will go away. But why should I be really. He was the one who made the choice to cheat. He hurt me more than anyone else every had, he should be coming to me!OK, OK, I'm coming back on track. I shut up NOW about the phone call, if asked, my lips are sealed. Back on plan A, if he goes and takes up life with his OW, then so be it. The next man in my life will benefit from all the reading about EN's I'm doing, the next man will have a stunner, the next man will be sexually satisfied. The next man will have my respect and love, he will have a woman who is assertive and knows how to look after a man. And H will miss out on all that, and it will be his loss. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img][ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:

Then again, maybe I'm puttting too much emphasis on every exchange. <hr></blockquote>I think we all do this until we accept that this is a long term project. Sea, try to remember to steer WAY down the road.Maybe I'm too late, but I recommend you give him your Plan A letter before he leaves. It doesn't say anything that you haven't already inferred.WAT

I sent it by email this morning. I'm in a mess.

Hang in there Seahorse!! You know you will go up and down. Hang on to the good while you can but like I always say focus on you. You were good not to give him all the details about what you know. It is good to hold back right now. Remember you really don't know what he is thinking or feeling and you can't believe everything he says. If he knows everything you know you have no advantage. I know it is hard but let him go and live for you. The statistics speak for themselves and they keep me going. Let the A die naturally. You don't want to hang on to him and make him stay. You want him to come back and be with you because that is what HE wants 200%. He needs time to realize what he is giving up. And also he needs to see how strong you are and that you are fine without him. Don't be his puppet. If he knows he can have you back at any time, he may string you on longer. For my plan A from a distance I send him cards. All kinds, funny ones, love, miss you, difficult relationship ones, happy bar mitzfa (we're not Jewish)joke ones, etc. i don't always write alot. Just I love you and miss you. I do not mention A at all. I send hime packages with stuff inside (I"Ve told about them on my other posts). On the boxes I write all over them. Last night I spoke with my SIL she said my H said the OW goes nuts over all my cards (sometimes I send 15 at a time). She is furious and rips them up!! Which hurt me (not too much), but pissed off my H. He has always kept all my cards to hime. He still has the ones i sent when i was 17! Everytime I speak to him on the phone I tell him all the great things i am doing, how happy i am and I'm really positive. He usually brings up the A in a non direct way. All I say is that I am here for him if he wants to work it out. I won't throw it in his face. When he is ready to talk i will listen and hold my tongue. I always make myself a safe place to come back to. But I won't be a doormat. I don't make it sound like I am pineing for him. I'm moving on full throttle. It seems to be working from what he tells my MIL BUT HE STILL WON"T CALL ME!!! So do I believe him? Yes but with reservation. He told his mom he wants to come home asap. Everyone there is getting a real kick about how nuts OW has become and my H is scared. He wants to stay home a semester to get away from it all and start again in Sept with me there with him. It was very hard for me to back off but I trusted the advice of all here at MB. Especially redhat- where is he? I hope he is ok. Plan A is living for yourself. And I totally agree with you that if your H won't come to his senses- some other man will benefit from this awful experience we have gone through. I feel the same way if my H is too f***ed up when he comes home. Seahorse, you and I are both knock- outs at this point. Don't forget that. Just keep getting better and better everyday. It will all be worth it some day. They say God can not give us what we can not handle. And if it doesn't kill us it makes us stronger. How true, how true. There is also the old saying what comes around goes around- Karma. If our doofus H's choose to make the biggest mistake of their lives they will be miserable for the rest of their lives. The best revenge is to live better than them and THRIVE..!
Hang in there Seahorse! Sorry so long!
Forgiver

Thanks Forgiver, I really need these words of encouragement right now. I guess that's normal, sometimes you need a little help to prop you up so you can walk again on your own. I think I have done all I can now. I had forgotton about the phone call, he brought it up, I made it out that what I heard was all about his friend and his little adventures. So I got out of that one! Didn't say too much, my mouth seems to get me into trouble.I will see him off tonight - 7 hours to go. Once he goes it will be easier to get back on Plan A-I'm very emotion now, and it hasn't helped that its that time of the month. I can't send him cards - only contact will be by phone and SMS. I am going to be Venusian (I can't find that post again and its driving me crazy). Do the 180thing and get him thinking. Will keep contact minimal -let him think about it.I feel bad because part of me wants the trip to be a total disaster (I don't want him hurt or anything, just unhappy), at the same time I hope he enjoys it - wierd huh?Urgghhhhh! This whole thing, I hate it. When this thing is over, either way, I'm going to buy myself a ring or similar. That will be a reminder to me what happens when you let a problem go and don't deal with it.I'm going to book to go horseriding this Sunday. That will cheer me up a bit.

You are doing great Seahorse! Having him out of the house gives you more time to focus your attention on you and what you want to do. Make yourself happy. that retail therapy is great! Buy clothes, get hair nails done. I'm not sure about the ring. It may be a painful reminder but then again maybe it would be good. Did you go horse riding Sunday? That killed me when I read that. I have a horse. I keep him at a barn 10 minutes away. I used to see him every day for at least 3 hours. Brushing and riding. Since D-day I have been to the barn only to pay my board. It is so painful to go to the barn and I don't know why. I think guilt. All the time I spent with my horse when I should have been with my husband. When my H told me he wanted to go to vet school. I totally supported him. I told him I would do anything. Sell the house, move etc. But I did ask him not to make me give up my dream, my horse. I have always wanted to own my own horse. I have had my horse for 3 years. I told him I totally support your dream but please don't ask me to give up mine. He told me it would make sense to get rid of my horse because of the money (Only 300 a month, NOT alot)but he told me I did not have to give him up. So I kept him. I love him. But since D-day I can't bring myself to go see him. He is turned out on 15 acres of grass fields with another horse. He gets fed 2 times a day by the man that lives there. He watches over him for me but does not do anything. I used to brush him for 2 hours a day and keep him impeccably clean. Now his hair is long, unkempt and matted with mud. It kills me to see him like that but I feel hollow when I am at the barn. As soon as I clean him up and turn him out into the fields, he rolls in a mud puddle. The kills me too. I told the guy at the barn i was having a family problem and I couldn't go to the barn for awhile. I told him I was basically retireing him and letting him just hang out and be dirty and wild. I am thinking of giving him back to his owner (she gave him to me with the understanding I could not sell him or destroy him, she has had him since he was 1 yr old). My taxes went up and thus my mortage went up 300- the cost to keep him. It's so tough.
I can't enjoy him anymore and he used to be my release and solace. Oh well. Maybe I will see him tomorrow.
Forgiver

Forgiver I understand u completely. I was like this with my garden, my home, my studies. I was so proud of it, kept it so beutiful. I have managed to keep the home up, but the garden and studies has become a bother. I did a little yesterday, just enough to get rid of the weeds and keep it alive till I come back. Frankly I don't want to live here anymore anyway. The only reason I haven't moved is my dog. Thank god for my doggy, he just looks at me, so sad. He is with my in laws while I go on holiday. So i'm here alone. I'm so alone. Its not that there isn't anyone around, its that I don't want anyone around. I just want peace, people here at MB, I don't have to explain my feelings too. Why I'm sad, why I'm so thin, everyone here knows. I'm so confused about what to do. The pain in my chest, its just crushing. I'm in turmoil.If I forget about the marriage, I can get over this pain, start again. maybe meet someone new. If I forget about the marriage, I can stay bitter, grow old by myself and have a dog as a companion for the rest of my life, or go and donate my time to some worthy cause.If I forget about the marriage I can get over this pain, and not start again, just be by myself.If I choose to go on with this marriage, I can see a lot of heartache, more ddays, more lies, more pain. No one to support me because everyone's sick of hearing about it, and why do I want him anyway.If I choose to go on with this marriage, he may decide to become a part of it, it may be wonderful. But what are my chances of the latter? 10-15%. By his actions in the last few weeks, I don't see much hope. Forgiver you are lucky, the A is dying all by itself. I can't see that happening here, not before she has weedled her way to getting pregnant so she can come to Australia. I know it sounds cynical, but its what I see happening. He will leave Thailand and be more caught up in it, until she gets another visitors visa to stay here, then it will be on again - I'm sure that's why he wants to move out, so that he can carry on this affair without my interference. I don't know if I'm strong enough to go through all this again. I don't want this again, it will kill me.

Basically, he sms'd to tell me Chang Mai is awsome. I'm sad for me, but happy for him he is enjoying the trip. Great [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I'm feeling better, in Cairn's had some sun, feeling more like a human being again. Let options open by calling him, but still very much undecided. Not sure what to do re WH. Until he admits its an affair, we can't deal with it. Not sure about the moving out thing, very unhappy as he's buying more time with her. I'll keep thinking, keep posting. Forgiver, tried to go parasailing, but foiled again, I always seem to miss out. Still, start the dive course tomorrow so can't complain.

Bye

Seahorse!
Good for you! You go Girl! Have fun! Enjoy yourself. Totally indulge! Are you alone or with some friends? Parasailing sounds awesome I'd love to do that. Have you windsurfed? Try it and tell me how easy/hard it is. I've always wanted to do that.
Have fun diving!! But DON'T drink the night before you dive. Not good. Very dangerous but I forget why. Keep me posted!
Forgiver

Seahorse! Where are you? Having fun i hope. I bet you look awesome with a tan and the new body you have. Must be knocking out all the boys with your good looks. Hope your self-esteem is on the rise!
Keep me posted to all the fun you are having! You're always in my thoughts!
Forgiver

Things aren't real great. Got a thudding return to reality yesterday. MIL rang me and started asking me where I was, who I was keeping in contact with. Then later that evening got a sms that he wanted me to stop playing games and to leave him alone. I don't know what happened or what I've done, he would not call me back. The last 24 hours have been hell.Cairns was excellent and I had so much fun. I realised there's another life waiting for me, one that I really want to do for a while. No one to answer to or tell me what to do. Life was easy, stress free, people are friendly. Yes, it was a holiday, but I'm told its always like this, an alternative lifestyle.I decided that I am going to initiate a financial split and go walkabout. If H wants me back in six months or a year, then it was meant to be, if not, then there will be no regrets. I feel I have done all I can, he has been telling his friends that I am happy for him to move out for six months and live the bachelor life (ie have sex with other women) - I have never said that, he's only hearing what he wants to. He wants the cake and eat it too. I really feel like I have to break free, I want to experience life too, and I can't do it here, in this house, with this situation. I can't take the stress and the confnement. I never wanted to live here, I have wanted to take off life this for a long time, but was never allowed to (by him). I still love him, and would still like him back, but I truly cannot cope with this pain. I am really starting to resent what he is doing. I'm starting to hate him. I feel like ****. I am starting to feel like I would be better off dead, I don't want to go thru that again. Being up in Cairns was really fun, for a few days there was no worries, it was so good. Yes Forgiver, I spoke to all sorts of people, but I seem to attract 22 year olds guys. My dive instructor was so nice, I was terrified he would ask me out for a drink as it seemed to be heading in that direction(he didn't), but for two days I really felt like someone appreciated me. It felt good, I haven't felt like that for a while.Nothing happened, nor did I want it too, but it made me think about this whole situation. I never asked for this situation, I don't think I did anything to deserve it (although I seem to be laden with guilt), I certainly don't agree with it, and its slowly torturing me to death. Tomorrow I'm going to apply for 6 months or a year off work. I have notified my lawyer to start a financial split, and when he returns on Monday, my H is not going to like what I have to tell him. I am so scared of doing it, but I know, in my heart this is the only thing that will work. I know you all don't agree with this, but I do know my husband. He needs a shock right now and a big one. I risk loosing him but the other risk is loosing myself. I have to do this, it feels right.

Seahorse,I am happy you are stronger and become a better person. Yes, we all want our SO back and repent however there are price to pay. At some point the price is too steep depending on individual situation. It is a balance situation when BS reach at this point and very scary for both WS&BS.Becarefull w/ your own A, it is very easy to do and we are all at a very dangerous situation emotionally. You are still married.MB never promote saving M at any cost. You know what best for you & your M, there is time when BS has to stop it. We try our best to save M but if that is not working we have to try to save ourself. Just be strong and many has survive this.God Bless you. -RH-

Seahorse,Redhat is right. Only you can decide what is best in your M. You know the situation, we are only outsiders looking in. I am glad that you had a good vacation. You seem to be stronger and up for the challenges that face you. That is good. I agree with you that sometimes the pain is to great and you have to take a step back for awhile. We are all concerned for you. I have been following your posts for a long time -- yours was one of the first posts I read when I first came here.Good luck. Stay strong. Let us know how things are going.FHO

Tripping off is not an option right now. I called my dad today to let him know I was back. He told me my mum has deteriorated. She is in a nursing home (6yrs approx) with Parkinsons and Dementia, and can no longer be fed. We are going to see a doc on monday, but basically the options are 1. Have an operation to insert a feeder - the operation may kill her, or 2. Leave her to die. My initial reaction was get the op, but now I'm thinking that I don't know. She is in pain, would we be prolonging it?I can't go tripping off, my dad needs me. Maybe when its over, it will be a better time. I think this may be a sign that I need to stay and deal with all this stuff.Its a real blow, I've grieved for mum already, but this will be final, she will die.I have to tell H, I hope he will support me (emotionally). I still want to separate finances and just let him go. It willl be so hard to concentrate on the marriage and mum. If H really cares about me, he'll be there for me. If not, then there won't be anything to save anyway. I'm so numb, I don't feel anything. No love, no pain, no frustration, just numb. Its a scary feeling.I wish my H was here and with me, but it can't be. I'm so sad all this has happened. We had the best life together, we supported each other. We were best friends. I wish I could understand why, but I can't and that really hurts. If I had addressed the problems we had earlier maybe I could have prevented this. I regret that very much. I feel very guilty about that. Like I let both of us down. In hindsight there is always 20/20 vision.

Felt very sad today, seem to still have feelings for my H. I don't understand how I can still care for someone who has hurt me so badly- after each turn of the knife I thought that would be it, sometimes it sure feels like it - is this normal?I'm not looking forward to Monday - H returns and dad and I see the doc re mum, what a day. I don't know what H will come back as. I don't know how he will take the financial split - I think he will be very angry, and that scares me, deep down I don;t want him to hate me. I just got a credit card bill, he's spending big, he's scaring me.Plus the move out, and live the single life business. He want to keep repayments going on the house so that keeps me here. I know this for sure, his friends have told me this. Apparently if he does this it justifies whatever he does - I'm to be a kept woman. They say he's really confused, that he dosen't know what to do. I really need patience. Half a me has my running shoes on, the other half wants him still. I know I have to be tougher with him, otherwise he will walk all over me. It was him who said he didn't like to see people walk all over me, so maybe standing up to him will wake him up, plus I feel like I can't let him have it all his way. I won't respect myself if i don't do this. One half of me dosen't respect myself any more the other says hang on. Am I normal? What's scaring me is that I feel numb when i think about mum dying. Why don't I feel anything? I should feel something.

Liz - I think everyone here would certainly validate your feelings. You have a tremendous emotional load right now and you're doing remarkably well, I think. Dern right it's tough.Don't expect those feelings for your H to evaporate anytime soon - if ever. If that were possible this website wouldn't exist. You are a normal, compassionate person who has been emotionally raped. But guess what - I'll bet your H is FAR more confused than you are. He just doesn't have the sense right now to recognize it. His friends telling you that he's confused is an independent vote of validation to you.I've said it before, but I keep coming back to this because it helped me so much: think of your H as that alien abductee who has been experimented on. Currently, he is not your H inside. If that doesn't work, think of him as temporarily insane, or brainwashed, or sick, or ANYTHING other than the man who is your H. It is very likely that your REAL H will re-emerge - when this will occur cannot be predicted - but it is very likely. This doesn't mean that your marriage will be restored - you know that - but it does mean that you may have a go at it.In the meantime, tend to your self. Focus on your parents. If it's too distracting to interface with your H, let us help you write a Plan B letter. Leave the legal and money stuff to your attorney.And, one more time - are you taking those meds?Dave

Hi WAT, Had a great day today, feel good, forgot all problems for the day. Indulged in a little retail therapy then went to Bondi Beach. For a city beach, its still beautiful.H comes home tomorrow, I'm scared, as you said, I don't know if I get the real H or the alien abducted one - I'm expecting the later. But Mum and Dad will be my focus for a little while now.I'm trying to join a dive club too, I figure the more I can distract myself with the better. That's always been a downfall of mine, I tend to 'give things up' to help others, and then I get frustrated and bored. WAT, I only took two of the meds, and that was months ago. I went to a psych and he suggested not to take them, I am in counselling and have an appointment to see the psych again in a few weeks. I have the meds but don't want to take them yet.I will update again tomorrow if I can

Seahorse
You are so strong and you have come such a long way! You give me inspiration and strength. Look at all you have done and how well you have done it! I am so proud of you! He is confused AWESOME!! That's great! I love it when they are confused because there is HOPE! Remember redhat's words... It is still early. Give it time. Only you know how long you can stay in the game. It is up to you but you have done a fantastic job so far. I say keep going. But that may only be because I feel so close to you since I find our situations similar and if you give up maybe I should too. WAT is so right and has such a wonderful way of saying exactly the right things I wish I were that knowledgable and eloquent. Listen to WAT. I am so sorry about your Mum and Dad. Be there for them. Put your time and energy into them. Thisway when you look back you will not feel bad that you should have been there but couldn't because of your H. Don't let your H rob you of this precious time with your parents. make every second count.
Be your best
Forgiver
PS Love that dream post with Brad Pitt

Hi guys, H rang last night and said he was coming home today, but going straight to his new appartment [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I couldn't help but sound disappointed, I tried to sound supportive. I should know by now not to EXPECT ANYTHING.I told him about mum, he sounded concerned, so thank god, he's not totally alien, I think it would have been a big LB (to me), if he hadn't. I got the impression, by the way he was talking (very businesslike) that he had her there. Oh well, had some warm milk and went to sleep, need my beauty sleep!!I'm still hanging in Forgiver, although my pride is dented by doing this. I can give it a go for a little longer even though my ego says not to. Then I read a post NSR had about plan A. Would I be a door mat for $1 million for a while - probably, so I guess if it means I get a new improved m and h I'll do it for another three months. Ughhhh.Met with the doc, dad handled it very well actually. I made it clear I thought the final decision was his as its his wife, but I told him what I thought. My brothers and sister couldn't make it, but they all agree, its dad's choice. Not so easy for him.He seems to be heading in the direction that we will let her die naturally. I am ok with this, her body has said "its time", so be it. The doc said it will take days, maybe weeks for her to die. I feel sad. I've watched this woman deteriorate for many years. I hope this will be peace for her and for the family.

Seahorse,I'm so sorry to hear about your Mother. It is a terrible situation for you. Forgiver is right -- concentrate on your family right now. Spend time with them, don't let your situation with your M rob you of this. You H sounds like he is still in the fog. That's okay -- you are the stronger person. Don't give up. My H came out of the fog -- it took awhile. You might want to look at some posts from WS. They help to understand what they are going through.Keep Plan Aing and keep us posted. We're all here for you.FHO

H rang me and I met him at (our) home this morning, he wanted to pick up clothes. He genuinely seemed pleased to see me, and me him. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I told him I loved him and that I wanted to work on our marriage (this goes against everything I've said the last two weeks but it seemed right at the time). He didn't say he loved me, but he does want to work on the marriage too. He is committed to the flat for six months. I told him I didn't want him to move out but I support him, and that I don't want the marriage we had, but a better one.I think he's still in contact with ow, just a feeling I have.We talked a bit, it was all along the lines of the above. I asked if he would be seeing/meeting other people, he said we both should if it happens. He said I should go out to dinner with someone if I meet them, he did add that it does hurt him to think about it, so there's a little hope there - he still cares some. I told him that it eats me up to think of him with someone else.Thing is, I don't want to go to dinner with anyone else, I want to go with him. I told him that, that he is the one, and I want to spend the rest of my life with him, it seemed to affect him.Everything I said was honest. I told him I was oscillating between giving up and holding on, I told him I thought it was over, but here I am again. Scared as hell.Did I say too much? Do you think I should have shut up? Do I really want to go through all this again? He seemed to care, I could see it in his eyes, in the way he held me, surely he can't fake that?We started talking about selling the house and me moving into the city, he wants to be closer to work. I'm scared now that if we do that I'll loose him, but I don't want to stay where I am. I hate this its too much right now.I have not been able to contact my dad today, he really has to make his decision today. I'm so sad for him.H was kind to me about mum and he knows I've got a lot now. I can't really make too many life changing decisions right now. When he talks it seems real, but after I'm scared that its all lies, that he's trying to trick me. I think he's still in fog too, so how do I know what's real anymore?

{{SEAHORSE}} Nothing is real right now for your H except fantasy and the fact he knows he can get you back at any moment. Concentrate on you and your family right now. I like that million dollar analogy. You said it your H is in the fog. It is still early- let him go. Do not give him too much information. Less is more. You have said enough and set the stage. It's his move. But don't pine for him even though I know it is so very hard. You are right, keep busy!!! I am going non-stop 7 days a week so i am not even around if my H calls.

My H asked if I met someone yet. I was elusive and did not answer him directly. It drove him up a wall. He really wanted to know. Especially when we talked about some of the interesting sexual content. He thought I was sleeping with someone and learning all these wild things. Duh, you can read about them! Does not mean you have done them. But that was immediately what my H thought. He said if I found someone that was great. I deserve to be happy. He said he was no one to judge. But by him thinking I was having my own affair made him feel less guilty, that I could stoop as low as he has. It makes the pompus [censored] feel better. He wants to feel better and by putting me down to his immature level does so. Well, I set him straight. That i absolutely would not do such a thing as he has because I am married. I told him, you know me better than anyone. I should think you know the kind of morals and values I have. And how committed I was to my marriage. I was going to say " You thought I didn't put out enough for you and yet you think I'm going to put out to a complete stranger?" But I bit my tongue and clarified that I was taking classes and reading alot. But he was missing out on some pretty crazy stuff. I did not give away all my tantilizing secrets. I just gave him a glimmer of my major change. We will see. Just occupy yourself and live for YOU today. It's our H's loss. BIG TIME. The best revenge is to live well and know.... If they do not choose us they will regret it someday and from that day on will be miserable-if they are not already. I mean how do you feel when you look in the mirror? I feel GREAT! Thanks Plan A! Think of our H's. Do you think they are happy at who they see in the mirror? What they have done and become? I think not. My H says he beats himself up every day and he is miserable with what she is putting him through. Yet he has not called or contacted me. AND he still has his flight booked to come home in 14 days. Go look at the divorce board. Many of the threads i read (only a few) were from WS who left their BS for OW and were now miserable, trying to use the MB principles their BS used on them. But they are not happy and realize the huge mistake they made. they want thier BS back. they want their lives back. They realize OW was not what they thought. Now they realize how good they HAD it. They are kicking themselves. Now it is too late b/c thier BS ran out of love, patience etc. They are so sad. Karma. You are doing wonderful Seahorse. Keep being the strong outgoing beautiful person you are! Shine where ever you go and don't let your H kill your spirit. I know it is hard, believe me! But you can do it!Forgiver

Thank you Forgiver, when I look in the mirror I'm ok with what I see (physically, mentally, as a person, etc). I know I am doing the absolute best I can. I have made a few mistakes a long the way, but I can hold my head high, I've tried.My H tried to infer I was having an Internet affair, he didn't realise I was on here all the time. He told me the other day that if I met someone I should go out with them, but that he would be sad. He said he knows I'm not a slut (how nice, that makes me feel so much better). I think he still wants the easy way out and someone to blame if the marriage fails, but I'm not going to let him off that easy.I noticed that he has put on a bit of weight round the middle. I know he will be feeling down about himself, not just physically but mentally. He knows he's put me through hell, he even told me not to loose anymore weight (he told me before the holiday I needed to loose a couple more kilos). He enquires about mum, which is nice. I could not handle it if he was nasty or didn't care. Mum was always good to him.He replied to an email I sent and said he was glad to see me yesterday. I hope all this is true. I'm finding it so hard to trust anything as being real. Dad told the nursing home yesterday to let mum go, it really hit me last night, when I was in bed. The house seemed empty last night, its like H was gone, mum is going and I'm lonely. I just cried and cried and prayed that mum will forgive us for not trying anymore. I was relieved to finally feel something. I'm just preparing myself and ringing dad each day to check on him. I guess I better check re funeral arrangements. This is the first person I've been close to that has died, so I don't really know how I will feel. I should count my blessings that I've not lost too many people who are close to me, but why do I have to loose two at once?Anyway, no point in going down this track again. I'm trying to keep "up". I told people at work about mum, and they're supporting me. They have a laugh with me which really helps. Plus I bought myself a really short skirt today that's going to blow H away, so that put a smile on my face too, and it only cost me A$5 which is a bargain!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Liz - I'm glad to read you have the attitude that you can only do your best and satisfy yourself that you gave it a go. This will pay off for you in the long run no matter what happens.I consciously took the same approach to be able to look back, in the event we didn't reconcile, and be guilt free, knowing I did all I could. So far, it's working for me.This worked when I lost my son, although there was never any doubt that we would climb mountains for him, conscious decisions or not. I am not ashamed to admit that when he passed I felt a sense of relief. I had already done most of my grieving by that point and we had done absolutely everything we could to heal him. His suffering was finally over and I was guilt free.I hope you have a similar reaction for your Mum. Your love is very evident and i believe she feels it.Dave

Thank you Dave, Today's a low day, feeling tired, feeling a bit of strain, feeling a bit grumpy. Yesterday H was in contact with me 4 times. Today nothing. He hurt his finger and had to get stitches yesterday when he picked up our spare fridge. I emailed him this morning to see how he was, but nothing. Fog again?It seems whenever I commit to my marriage I feel low, it just dosen't seem right-shouldn't I feel good about it? And what if moving out turns out to be the best thing he ever did. What if leaving me turns out to be the best thing he ever did. Then what? I want to call him, but I'm hanging back. I feel he should contact me now. I suppose he will when he wants something from me.I hate feeling like this. I don't even feel like going anywhere or doing anything. Just feel plain grumpy.There's no further news on mum. I have a brother who we cannot find, so he dosen't know yet. I emailed all my dad's sisters overseas to try to rally support for him. They've been contacting him which is nice. He needs to know he's not alone in this.Having lunch with a friend today so this may brighten me up a bit. Will try to go out tonight, somewhere, anywhere.[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Liz - your ups and downs are normal. I bet you can predict by now what I'm gonna say next: meds [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . That's all I'll say about that.Let me suggest that you try thinking long term instead of reacting to everything he does or doesn't do. You can hamstring yourself reacting to every current in the river. I promise he will continue to be alternatingly warm and cool to you. Expect it. You need to be the stable one. Don't let him have this power over you to cause reactions to everything he does. Not that he's necessarily trying to do this - remember, he's confused - but even unintentionally, he can tie you in knots.Understand? Focus on your Dad and Mum right now.Dave

Feeling a bit sad again. He called today, needed the car. Everything is the same with mum.

Seahorse,Hey, just a quick post to say hang in there. I am thinking about you and know you can get through this. I also recommend the meds -- they really help, but are not a miracle cure. They don't take away feelings but they do help smooth out the high ups and low downs.Take care.FHO

Hey Seahorse, thanks for your post. I see we are both down today. This stinks. I toyed with the thought last night that perhaps my H just went out and found someone who REALLY is better for him than me. Resigned myself over to the fact that in 12 years nothing better has come along for either of us until now. Trying to believe that maybe we don't fit into the statistics that would be in my favor. Maybe she's really better than me. Got myself really down about it. Only because i had some time with nothing to do. See what happens??
Iv'e got to keep busy! Going rock climbing with 8 of my friends tonight. None of them know. they just think i am the out going one who arranges cool activities. Little do they know it keeps me from offing myself. Hang in there and know I am blue too. At least your H called you 4 times in one day! LUCKY!!Forgiver[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Forgiver ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
Feeling a bit sad again. He called today, needed the car. Everything is the same with mum.<hr></blockquote>
Seahorse, go out from your house ... do something diferent ... retail theraphy (go shopping), go to spa or do something to take care of yourself. You see, your H is abducted by alien, he is not here to take of you. Now you have to be nice and take care of yourself. I enjoy going out to late show and going to gymn ... I go to give a treat to my self. I color my hair dark to hide some gray ones. Go out w/ freinds that don't know your situation ... go and do something different. Weekend is just starting, no time for feeling blues.I will check back tonight -RH-

Sorry guys, I'm still down, I know I've got to get out of the house, but I don't know what to do with myself. I lived my whole life for my husband, for so long, now its really hard to get out of that habit. When I was away, when he was gone, it seemed easier, I had fun. Now I feel like I'm just hanging around waiting...You did give me an idea though Redhat, I might go to the movies tonight. H is coming home, but I get the feeling he's going to get the car and go out. So much for working on our marriage, to be honest, I think he's just saying that to keep me here, to manipulate me. He told me he dosen't "love" me, heck I don't even love me right now.HE said to me yesterday, is midday ok, would earlier or later be better. I said, if you can come earlier it would be nice, he immediately said "it will be later". I feel like he's just deliberately doing this.See, I'm geeting so caught up in these stupid exchanges, I'm sick of it. I just don't know what to do with myself when I'm here, I feel like when I'm here I've got responsibilities and the weight of it tires me and I don't feel like doing anything. I'm also isolated. Once H takes the car, I'm pretty much stuck out here where nothing much happens. I'm so mad he's left me out here in this situation, but I'm frightened to sell the house as he might use it as an excuse to leave me.Help, someone give me some guidance. What am I doing? What's wrong with me. I feel like I'm not living at all, just waiting to live. I look at mum and dad. Mum was diagnosed with here disease the day my dad retired. They searched for cures, then it was too late, she was incapacitated. I don't want to wait round forever then find my life is over. I'm hurting, I'm scared and I just don't know what to do.HE just rang right then, he's not coming home at all.He said he just wants time, to get the fondness back. I said I wanted to see him, that I miss him, how do we work it out when I don't even see him. I told him I love him, I want to see him. I'm crying my eyes out. I feel like I've just been stabbed though the heart. I want love I need love. Is this what it going to be like? Help, someone, tell me something.

Hi Seahorse -- I've been following your posts. You are doing remarkably well and are much stronger than I am even though we are at the same points since D-Day.I sit here at work thinking maybe my WH will call -- it's past work time, but I can't go home and face my empty house. I know he won't call tonight. He says he will come by tomorrow, but it will be the same as last weekend. Tell me he'll be there in the morning and shows up late afternoon and doesn't know where the time went.I feel better when I'm doing something/anything other than sitting here thinking about my WH. I am going to go rent a movie to watch at home -- I need a night off from reading all of these affair books.I know you are hurting, but you have been so strong and you can keep on going. My dad is having cardiac surgery early next week and I cannot be there. He's had heart problems for several years and I almost lost him last fall and my WH was not there for me the way I needed him to be. I went to be with my dad and mom and my WH went to be with the OW while I was in the hospital. I'm no expert at any of this, but there are others that have been there for you and their advice seems solid. All we can do is keep trying. It seems unfair right now to you I know. It seems hard, but you have made it this far. Take each day as a new one.My thoughts and prayers are with you. May God give you the strength and grace you need right now.

Thank you unsureheart. I know there are other's who have been where I am that's why I asking desperately: How do I not react to these things?I called back and left a message that things with mum were getting to me, that I know he has a big load right now but I need support. I asked him what happened?I know WAT told me not to do these things, but it seems that I have no control. Help me not to react. What do other's do? Is there some technique? I won't contact him again now, I'll wait for him, he said Tuesday, but I think that by my reaction he may not now. I'm not really creating a safe place am I. Please someone give me advice. I'm seeing the counsellor tomorrow. I'm going out now, going to go to the beach and just try to stay out of the house for today. I just feel so lonely and so unloved. I just want someone to love me, preferably my H.

Liz - sorry I wasn't right there when you needed someone - but you had yourself and your good head.I know you know what I could say, so I'm not gonna say it again.
I will say this: Do I have to knock some sense into you? Do you think that just because you're on the other side of the planet from me that Jacky won't knock you for me? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] OK, seriously, stop pleading and crying to him. This will have the EXACT opposite effect that you want. Understand? You know this!!Now, maybe some others can help with this. We need to find a balance between not LB'ing but denying him the use of your car. He's not living at home, right? He chose to leave, right? The easy conclusion is to let him get his own friggin' car. But you can't do this all at once without LB'ing. What's the status of splitting up your finances? What's the status of your talks with the attorney? Basically, I think you need to be moving in the direction of separating legally since he's already done it physically. You need to protect Liz. This will empower you, I think, and help you detach while the aliens have control.Does this make sense?Dave

WAT is right Liz,Showing your H any sign of weakness or dependency on him is going to push him away, especially when he has told you he doesn't like that kind of thing. He needs to see change...permanent and obvious change in you, and the things he has told you he doesn't like are the things to change first.I understand that this is a very, very hard time for you right now. You need support, but your H is not forthcoming, and asking for it is not going to get it. Therefore you need to find support in other ways.....friends, MB, me (I have told you to call anytime [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). Hard as it is, you know in your heart that you cannot rely on H for anything right now, and that must be accepted by you, and let go.Now, I am where you are in some respects. I have just had a hysterectomy. I have my mother and a friend who help me, and I have home help...but the emotional side of this is where the pain is. I NEED someone to hold me, pamper me, let me rest, let me cry, etc. BUT I was doing okay until I found out that I have a golden staph infection on the wound......very scary because it is HARD to get rid of. My first thought was to tell H. Yet I know he may be concerned, but he will distance himself, and that will hurt me more.He hears from others how I am doing, has asked me in an email, and I kind of play it down. I let the others play it up for me, which they do [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . But, even so, he keeps his distance. Is there any way at all you can get yourself a little car? Borrow from friends if need be? It would be a great thing for you to have your independence back, and also show H that you are capable of looking after yourself.In the meantime, don't be afraid to call up friends and ask them to come and get you out of the house.......even if it is just for coffee. Or invite them to your house for dinner, or a coffee...keep occupied, and also this shows H you are having a life without him.C'mon, girl, you are an Aussie, and Aussie women are known for their strength and resilience in the face of hardship. You CAN do these things, and I am sure they will make you feel more in control.I want you to know that if you need a little holiday, you are welcome to come to Melbourne, and visit with me...I would be glad to have you.Now, the next time you want to email H, or talk to him, write to me or call me instead...talking helps, and I am here for you. Not going anywhere with this stupid infection, anyway [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] !Keep well, my friend, and remember to look after YOU.Love and light,Jacky

Hi Liz,You don't know me but I've been following your thread and I feel for you.I won't invade your thread, you have some excellent support already, but I love Jacky's advice about calling or emailing her when you want to email or call your husband. She is a good friend, take her up on her offer.
Doc

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks Doc, I hope she does!

Guys thank you, I'm thinking or rather, trying not to. I just need some time, my head hurts. Haven't contacted H, He contacted me - I had the phone off so we haven't spoken - better this way anyway. I'll finish this later.

OK I'm back. Went to see mum. I haven't seen her for sometime and was quite shocked by what I saw. She is simply a skeleton with skin. Her cheeks and eyes are hollow, her face is sharp (no fat to cushion the skin). She sleeps most of the time and could barely open her eyes to see us, if she even knew we were there. Her legs barely make a bump under the sheets. She has teaspoons of "food" and pain medication to sustain her every now and then.Dad said that it could not possibly be long before she will die. I agree. Surely god will take her soon, to see her there like that, its gutwrenching.I will go as much as I can this week to be with her and dad. I'm concerned re the financial stuff too, WAT. When I got back from holidays I instructed my lawyer to write the letter. As far as I know, its nearly ready to pick up, but I don't know if I can do this in the middle of mum's death. I'm really frightened to do this anyway-I'm coming to terms with the fact that if I do it, it may mean H and I will never get back together, it would be very easy for him to walk away - can I live with that? I need some more time to think, its a big decision and a major upheaval for me. I wonder if I could really handle a court hearing, mum's death, an immature selfish husband who will have a hissy fit about the financial split, and maybe leave me, plus the family around me's grief. I'll have to deal with my sister who will be a mess (and who I'm really pissed off with, because a year ago she walked out on two kids and a husband to be with another man). Add to that friends pressuring me to tell my H "where to go", and the day to day responsibilities of looking after a home (and a poor dog who looks sad and lonely-I feel bad about that). Could I really handle a court hearing right now? When I got back from holidays, I was ready to do it, but I just think it would be too much to add to the growing pile of bull**** that's on my doorstep. I'm very reluctant to add more to the load.I like the idea of him getting a car and I'm going to suggest that, hopefully he'll be open to the idea. Jacky, I so much appreciate your offer to come to Melbourne. I wish it was that easy, and maybe it will be soon. Can you leave that offer open for me, there may be a time, real soon, that I need some time out. How's the infection by the way, how are they treating the staph? that's a real nasty one.Look I know that he's not going to be there for me with mum. When he called yesterday he said that he moved out for a bit of space and "just wanted to be free" and by the way, how's my mum? I really hoped he would be there, but I'm going this one alone. Its just another LB (to me) and its making me wonder - I know he's in fog, but its really hard not to be LB'd by that! I'm feeling today that I can concentrate on mum now, that phone call from him had a lot to do with it. He will have to fit into my schedule with mum. I'm not sure what Harleys or anyone else says about it, but if its an LB, so be it, I have very little time left with mum now and this separation WILL be permanent.I know my H has been "abducted by aliens", but I really cannot fathom that he'd be so unfeeling, I'm amazed at what the guilt and confusion can do to a person mind. From what unsureheart said earlier though, its all part of the fog and its common. One day I'm going to read about the psychology behind that - what makes a person disassociate like this? The mind is amazing. Anyway I'm going to bed now, its 12.30am on monday morning - yuck! Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

Hi Liz - we certainly validate the load you're currently carrying. It's not fair.I don't know the legal procedure in Aus., but why a court date for a financual split? Isn't this something you can leave to the lawyers and you can focus on your family? Just an idea to lessen your load.Dave

I don't know if I can do that, I'll have to find out. I'm paying this morning for a lack of sleep and feeling grumpy. I'm just going to go with the flow today, don't feel capable of too much else. Seeing mum last night was a real shock.Have to do some work now.[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

No change with mum, going to be with her tonight. Dad is getting worked up about my brother and sister, so I'm trying to counsel him to let go that he can't control them - teaching him what I've learned. H emailed and said "work permitting" he'd see me. So, I emailed back and said that I was concentrating on mum and would catch up with him another time. I believe I did it without LBing. I've not heard a reply, but its OK. WAT, thanks for what you said, I have been giving him too much power. Its all part of setting boundaries and assertiveness/self esteem, so I'm going to work very hard on this and have a chat to my counsellor about it today.Trying to organise lots of activities. Got a good nights sleep so feel more "in control". I've been emailing Jacky too, she's been great.

No change, no update re mum. H emailed me to see how I was, but I can't be bothered replying right now, will make him wait a little while.

{{{{{HUGS SEAHORSE}}}}}} My heartfelt sympathies about this difficult time with your Mum. It is so good you spend the time with her now. She means more thatn anything else right now. It is good you make H wait. Shows you are strong without him and other matters concern you more thatn him. Other priorities come before him now. If you can squeeze him in its his luck. but don't even bother with him right now. You need to be with your family. I pray for you and yours.
Forgiver

Thanks Forgiver, You sound better, I'm glad, thank you for your prayers. No Change with mum.I feel guilty as I'm in a great mood. Even though the situations aren't good, I feel good.

Started writing a letter to mum this morning. I won't give it to her. Its more to get out feelings I have - mum and I had some struggles, as do all mothers and daughters, they were never resolved. I will burn the letter when she dies to offer it up to her. I feel sad, I haven't finished it, but it was enough to start the feelings going. I'm also writing a letter to the Agency I went to with my H for marriage counselling (before I found out, but he was having the A then), the counsellor there told me it was "my problem". Looking back if the counsellor was as good as he made out he would have probed my husband for an A. Things could have been different, although maybe not. This has also made me sad. I asked for help and was betrayed. I'm just a sad girl today. I'm going to drag myself out tonight, somewhere anywhere. Got a full day tomorrow too. I've not heard from H, he may be giving me space (to deal with mum) or maybe he just doesn't give a ****ing **** about me which I think is probably more true these days. I'm loosing hope we will ever fall in love again. I've changed so much, he's treated me so badly. I'm starting to enjoy my semi-independent life and making plans for the future. I look at other men and wonder what life could be like with someone else, or would I end up in the same situation. I never thought my H would do this to me, so whose to say another man wouldn't? How would I ever trust anyone again. Anyway this is still some time away. I have to deal with mum first and foremost. Everything else will just have to wait.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
I never thought my H would do this to me, so whose to say another man wouldn't? How would I ever trust anyone again.<hr></blockquote>Liz - just as "just friends" is universal among WSs, your thoughts are universal, I think, among BSs. Please take some comfort in knowing you're "normal."If you were closer, I'd invite you over to pound nails with me this weekend to work out your frustrations (I'm putting in a hardwood floor). So, how 'bout a dedicate a few nails to you?WAT

I'd like that WAT, please bash a whole bunch of nails for me. I'm out and about but still pretty loneyly and pathetically "pining' for H. I'm hurting again that he's done this to me, dosen't seem to care. He hasn't called or anything. He had promised that he would see me every weekend when he moved out. How stupid I was to believe him. IT was just an excuse to get me off his back and really don't think he does care.I'm hurting that mum is leaving me too. She's leaving and I need her.

I know, Liz - once again, you're normal. The double whammy is certainly unfair, but you can do it. If I survived, so can you. If I can thrive, so can you. And i'm only one person here - you've noticed all the rest.Bottom line - you WILL make it.Off topic, my Aussie au pair's Dad is arriving this weekend from Canberra for a visit. He arranged to purchase a Harley (NOT the MB version [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) right from the factory here and he's gonna cruise around the country before shipping it back to Aus. I'm not a biker, but I admire his sense of adventure.Keep your chin up.WAT

Thanks for checking in on me.See, Aussie's are very adventurous people. We have to be with all this land and water around us! I hope he has a fantastic time. You've got to do stuff like that, its good for the soul.No change with mum. I feel awful. I want her to die now, I can't bear to see it, to go through it, but I think it will take a while. She is a stubborn woman and I don't think she is going to give up easily. Dad says she not in pain, that she's comfortable. Now my dad has started on the 'my days are numbered' business. Apparently the priest told him that its common that the waiting partner dies first. I could'nt believe what I was hearing. I don't want to hear my dad talk like this. I don't want to think of the possibility that dad will go too. We finally heard from my brother so at least he knows.I sent H an update today, very short, very brief. I don't know if he will contact me. He hasn't contacted me in days. That hurts very much. I feel discarded, used, unwanted. I am trying not to contact him too often. I am leaving it up to him now, is this the right thing to do? My heart aches not hearing from him. I desperately want to hear from him.I doubt there is any hope for our relationship. I've thought about it a lot, and the thought he's had sex with her and god knows who else turns me off. Its not that he's been with another woman its that he gave his 'love' to someone else. That he lied about being married, that he just trash me and our relationship. I regret so much that this has happened. I've lost so much. I just want to get through this. I want the pain to be over. I want to feel happy. I feel like I'm in limbo, just waiting. Waiting for mum to die, waiting for my husband to decide either way. Waiting for something good to happen. I'm sick of waiting. Just got an email from H he says he's dropping by tonight. He needs money. He was supportive re mum and I even got a 'lots of love'. I'm tired of all this, its all manipulation. I want real love, but its not coming from anywhere at the moment.Anyway, going to a talk about Grey Nurse sharks on Friday - I joined a Dive Club on the weekend, so maybe I'll meets some new friends, there's a BBQ afterwards (of course, we're in Australia!) and drinks, so I'm looking forward to that.[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Hey Seahorse! Sending out lots of LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVEEEEE, LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE!!
I'm sure that probably does not hit the spot but I'm trying to be creative here. I'm sorry about your mum. I know the waiting is hard. We waited for a long while with several of my family members. Have hope in your Dad. My grandfather passed away 7 years ago and my Grandmother is going stronger than ever at 97. Her Dr. is concerned because she may out live her pacemaker. Her pacemakers days are numbered- she will need a replacement in the next couple of years. What should she do? She needs a new knee also but won't get one. She says what's the use? The operation would probably kill her and she has a few more years in her yet.
Your dad may surprise you. Does he have friends. He should get active in a club or church or something. Hopefully friends and family will keep him busy. Do you have retirement homes downunder? Not a nursing home but kind of like a condo complex where older people live and socialize together. my parents want to go to one when they get older. You should check it out. I know how hard it is not hearing from H. My H called my SIL and spoke to his friend today. Said he wouldn't call or e-mail me. He's coming home on Wednesday. I stopped contacting him through e-mail last week when I questioned his flight. I'm done e-mailing. Let your H get back to you. Meanwhile you need to get back to you. Do you have friends? Throw a party. I did on Friday and it was great. Some people knew but were not allowed to talk about my H except to act like he was coming home for a visit from school and everything was OK. He only came up a few time s in conversation. We were too busy cooking and playing games and listening to music, talking and of course drinking! If you can have a party just for the hell of it. It passes the time anyway.
Gotta go someones here! Hang in there!

Ok, I'm going to try to be brief, and I'll post on GQII because I need help understanding myself.H came over last night. He was there when I got home from Yoga, I was immediately asked why I was so late, he's been waiting since 6pm. Well, dah, I've been doing this class for ages and the times haven't changed!Anyway, he said, I'm going in 10 minutes. I gave him a hug, etc and tried to get him to stay. He got angry. I was mad, I dropped him at the railway station and said goodbye. I said I'd see him when I could, when I wasn't busy. I drove to the shops, not straight home.He rang me later, "had I finished in the shower", etc, I said I wasn't in the shower I was "out", that's why I didn't answer the phone. Conversation ensued about where I was, but I cut that short. We started to talk. I told him that I had been feeling like the relationship was over, that him not coming to see me was telling me it was over. He told me that his head was clearing (the fogs clearing?) and that there were still feelings there for me. He said that I was scaring him being so agressive sexually (which is amazing since I was always accused of being too conservative and there was never enough-now I'm the scary one!). I said that I would back off, but that there are parts of me that I've "discovered" and that aren't going away now I've found them.He also said I was trying to control him. Granted, I did try to make him stay, but I desperately wanted to see him. I've learnt by reading 5 love languages, that my primary love language is quality time- altough I'm aware at the moment, that could be a result of what's happening in my life. I reflected his feeling that I controlled him and asked if he could point out exactly what I did to make him feel that way as I didn't know what I did to make him feel that way. I asked him to keep an open mind, that the past is the past and maybe he is expecting me to act that way. I told him right now I have no desire to control him.He said that in 6 months he'd be back, that the feelings for me are coming back. I asked him if he had thought about what would happen if in 6 months he didn't want to come back. He said no.OK, now to me. I'm confused. I love this man, no doubt he is the one, but I'm scared. Last week he told me that he'd come to see me "work permitting". Its not good enough for me. I don't want to be a "time permitting" wife. I want to be number 1 in his life-this is very important to me. I can see his father in him, work is number one because it pays the bills. Yes, that's true, but what about life? God, I don't want to end up like his parents, or mine for that matter-never doing anything or going anywhere. I'd like to take all the good stuff I see in marriages and make that mine.Next, I'm guilty, I tried to control my husband over the years. Actually, I was unaware of it up until the time he started staying out late, or not coming home at all (Hello-Affair). So, I let go. I realised, fairly early in this disaster that I had no control and let go. Its been hard, but I believe I've done pretty well. Thing is, demanding to know why I was not home early from yoga or where I was when I didn't answer the phone, or why hasn't my sister been to see my mother or I'll come and see you "work permitting" to me, is controlling. If I'm guilty of being a control freak, then so is he. Thing is I can see it, he can't. He acts like he is entitled to act this way. I am not going back to this. I will not live like this anymore! I'm an adult, an individual and independent - I don't want to answer to anyone, not now, not in six months, or 6 years. I want to be two adults in a relationship that supports and fosters each other. Respect. That's what I want. Respect for who I am, for my free spirit. For all the weird things I do and try. I don't want my spirit crushed again, don't want to be patronised or mocked for being who I am. That's why I wasn't happy in my marriage. I was pushed into the conservative mould, into being what my mother wanted, what he thought I should be. He fell in love with 'me' the girl who likes to have fun, but she disappeared slowly over the years fitting into the mould everyone else wanted. This is it for now. If anyone can help me to sort this out in my mind, help. I keep looking around me and thinking life could be better. There are nice men around-it could be different, but would it really. How long before it ends up like this again - two year? after all the romantic stuff is gone, your left with the reality again. I'm scared to let go, to say "goodbye" to him and the old relationship, but I'm scared to have him back. I'm scared.

Awe Seahorse! I'm right there with you. I'm scared too. I think you made some excellent points that I totally agree with. Some of which I have written down and will keep on my dash board so when I drive I will remember them. You said it so well i am hoping I remember to say all I've learned from you and MB. I fear I will be tounge tied or mute when my H returns. i think it is wonderful that you asked your H exactly what it was you did to make him feel that way. He is trying to predict what you are doing and how you will react based on who you USED to be. Just like you are trying to read the old him. Neither one of you know each other right now. After being together for so long you think you know what the other is going to do. But not after this situation. You have to get to know each other again. He said you were too agressive, when before you were too passive and conservative. I was the same exact way. I think I know now it was because my need for affection was not being met. I was also conservative because I was never with anyone else. So what I know I learned from him. I wanted to do whatever he wanted and was too embarrassed to suggest for a change because I was afraid it would turn him off or he would think I was a freak or too assertive which may threaten him. Now, as you have, I too have discovered new parts of me that are not going away now that I have found them. That statement is brilliant. It's another I wrote down and plan to tell my H. It probably floors your H and scares him as well. He will come to realize it is a gift he is very lucky to have the second chance of receiving. He is confused because he does not recognize the new you and can not predict what you will do. He is trying the control things but not getting the results he expected because you have EVOLVED. Which brings me to your next wonderful point. You said "I can see it, he can't" Yes! Yes! Yes! That's right! You CAN see the big picture. You know all the possibilities of how this can work out. You are so much smarter than him right now. You are so much more grounded. When you are with him you have to realize that. Think of it as having a conversation with someone who is IGNORANT or has a stong opinion or view of something that is totally wrong (Like a racist or a biggot). If you have a conversation with some one who is not too bright (I'm not saying someone with a learning disability or retardation). .. But someone who may not be as enlightened as you are, you sometimes have to let some of the things they say slide because they really have no idea what they are talking about. I hope you don't take it like I am insulting your H or anyone who is a little slow. I do not mean to offend anyone. I have a hard time explaining it. But just try to think of it as your H is a little slow right now. You can't rip his head off and you can't educate him. You have to slowly let him learn on his own while you drop nuggets of loving info here and there. A stupid example but ... You may be talking about the color blue with someone who has had a limited life experience. You may suggest bringing up other hues of blue. Oh, yes there are aqua and azure and midnight and cerulean.... And they'd say... There's no such thing!! There is only blue there are no other varations and that's that. Then over a while they see a crayon that says aqua, Wow! There is another blue, aqua, Then they hear someone talking about azure. They come to the realization that you were right. But you did not argue and cram it down their throat. You simply said something like "I'm sorry you don't believe in another form of blue, so we agree to disagree" or somthing like that. It's a dumb example but I know I have spoken with people who had limited insights or closed minds and you tend to let things go because they are just not ready to hear it yet. So, you can see it but he can't. You are so right! I'll leave it at that for now. i've gone on way too long! I'm praying for you!
Forgiver

Thank you Forgiver, I am very flattered. Its funny, we have such similar circumstances (that lead up to the A's). I was frightened to act out fantasies with H because I thought he'd think I was cheap or nasty or something. Now I see that its him who really scared. Although he was my one and only (and he always had the hide to tell me I should go and sleep with other men so I would learn something) and he was with other people before me, I still think its him who isn't sure of himself. He dosen't like to try too much, and I agree with you, I think I closed up (so to speak!!) because the sex wasn't fun. Many times I tried to get him out of the house with it and he just refused, so why should I do what he wants? See what I mean, its about compromise. I was thinking about initiating phone sex with him, but now I wonder if it will totally freak him out-he might think I've started a new business or something. What I don't understand is he was the one who acted out HIS fantasy, he looks at porn on the net and videos, so why is he scared of little ol me?Today I received an award at work for 2002 Best Employee, so it was a real lift. Apparently a lot of my colleagues nominated me. It was very flattering and I really felt loved and appreciated. Everyone at work (most don't know about H) was saying its a turning point for me (they know I've had some kind of problem). I hope they're right. I hope I can keep going well with plan A. WAT said it seems to be going well. So I got to keep it up!

""""DAAA.... DADA...DAAAAA"""" That's suppossed to be trumpets blaring for you! Way to go Seahorse QUEEN of 2002!!! You are awesome. Isn't is weird how throughout all this crap, from time to time the good happens? Ride it for awhile girl! I think your H may be scared of the new you. He is kind of taken aback. But like you said, you discovered new parts of you that are not going away. Those parts have been found and make up the new better Seahorse! Your H is so lucky to even have a chance with the new you! He better not miss it. Keep doing what you are doing as long as it makes you feel good. You are not hurting anyone, just becoming stronger.. that's what this is about. I can not show my H the new sexual me since he hasn't been around to meet me. And the old me he tried to have sex with in Jan was feeling really rejected so not very experimental and definately not safe enough to take a risk. When my H returns he still has STD. It taks 10 days for meds to clear it so i figure he has 10 days to catch a pek at my new buff body.... but no touch! PSYCH! I'm not sure if I can be intimate with him anyway. I won't know how I feel until I see him. I'm horny as hell because it has been 3 months since the last 2 encounters and they wern't too hot due to the A just about uncovered. And I hadn't had any since August! So since August I've had sex twice!! Wow! That number really shocks me. This is the first time I've thought of it! Twice in 8 months! YIKES! No wonder I'm horny! I tried phone sex with my H once. Seemed very successful. But have not done it since due to lack of communo. My H was shocked at what came out of my mouth. But he seemed to enjoy it quite a bit. So I can see where your H and mine are scratching their heads wondering where WE"VE been. We are showing another side that they can't handle right now. They were always the experienced ones in control. Well look what they have awoken within us! Watch out! I think if I do have intimate feelings for my H, 10 days of teasing are in order!
I tried the phone sex figuring it was his need and what do I have to lose? He has already humiliated me. If I say this to him now over the phone no one would beleive him, I'd never say such things!! Wink, Wink, ... not the old me any way. I say try it! It's another way of doing a 180 on him. Keep his wheels spinning! How are your Mum and Dad doing by the way? They are in my prayers as well.
Until tomorrow!
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver, I can always count on you to bring a smile to my face! The more I think about it, the more I am sure my H may have an STD. Before he went to Bangkok we were having sex quite often (and he told a friend it was awsome, something he has NEVER EVER said about our sex life in all the time we've been together), but when he came back he was very defensive and has become more so each time I see him. I wonder if he told me to back off because he still has it? I do think he feels threatened too though. He can't work me out, and I bet he's worried about what I'm doing. He did say before he left (I was taking the Herbal Supplements) that he was starting to get worried. Maybe he thinks I have a disease!! No, he knows me. He knows there's been noone else.Also, when he came back, he made a comment that many of the girls have diseases, etc. Serves him right if he does.Your H will be so hot for you after 10 days Forgiver!!! You should play up to that big time and make him suffer just for what he's done to you (sorry, I'm in one of those moods).Actually I'm pretty sad and have had a bit of a cry tonight. Dad called me and told me mum is in a coma now. He is spending the night at the nursing home. I'm keeping vigil here. I've been lighting a special candle for her each night and one for my H-someone had a post about this and I thought it was nice-it makes you think each time you see them. Funny, mums candle burns solid, no flickering, its steady. H's, which is also a candle we had at our wedding, flickers and jumps around and even went out once-just like our relationship. If the damn thing goes out too often I'll leave it like that.I wrote a letter to mum. Just resolving some things that were never resolved between us. I will burn it when she dies-as a symbol of giving it too her. I don't know what I will do with the candle. I might keep it to remember here and burn it when I feel sad and miss her.I'm supposed to be going diving tomorrow, but all depends on mum now. I feel callous when I keep on living, but really, when your husband leaves you and your mother dies, life still has to go on, dosen't it? If I stop now, I will never get up again, so I just keep on living and hope I'm doing the right things, making the right decisions. life will continue and there will be more happy times and sad times. Life never promised to be a bed of roses, it was our parents that told us that myth.

Seahorse, I'm so sorry about your Mum. If some of the items in your letter are things you wanted to tell your Mum, loving things , why not go to her in her coma and tell her anyway? They may be a comfort and what she needs to hear to let go. I know this is so hard for you. I lost my brother when I was very young- car accident- he lingered for three months in the hospital. I was only allowed to go to the hospital once. But he always had someone there. It is just a thought. Your H may have an STD. Have you been checked? Please go if you have not. It could also be his guilt makes him distant. I found that with my H. He blamed it on school and stress. I hope you have a good night and know I'm thinking of you.
Forgiver

Thanks Forgiver. I did go see mum and I tell her everythings OK and that dad and I will look after my sister and I love her and goodbye. She looks peaceful. It won't be long. I told her it was ok to let go now, everythings ok.I went for a dive with friends yesterday (it was a holiday for ANZAC day). We dived the Grey Nurse Shark Dive, so I actually was swimming with sharks!! It was so "un-scary" they are real peaceful and curious-would have been a different story with Great Whites, but fortunately there were none there (that we saw anyway). Also saw a cuttlefish and lots of other fishes.It was so wonderful, peaceful and something I'm glad I've done now. Sharks are great creatures!! There were about 7 ranging from 50cm to about 1.5mtrs. I was within 1 metre of a shark!!!

Feeling a bit low this morning, but have managed to pick myself up a bit. I went to the first social night of the dive club. Everyone was friendly and they had a talk about the sharks I dived with on Thursday.I drove through the suburb where H now lives (I don't know his address) and I felt so bad. Its such a great place, everythings happening there. Its the kind of place I've always wanted to live. I feel envious, I feel mad, I feel discarded and used. I feel like I was just a piece of rubish that my H no longer needed and so left behind. I didn't deserve this treatment. Everyday that goes by that he dosen't contact me makes me fall out of love just a touch more. Anyway dwelliing on this is not helping me. Everythings the same with mum.

Seahorse, (((((HUGS)))) It sounds like your dive club is alot of fun. It is very good for you to go out and be with other people. I know I love to go to the barn to be with my horse but I am the only one there and it is very lonely. So instead i go to gym and rockclimbing and kickboxing to be around people. I know what you mean about not hearing from your H makes you lose a little love each day. My H said he would call everyday and then for 2 days he does not. Withdrawl, Withdrawl! -$-$-$. Then he calls today, the first thing he says is sorry I didn't call I know I said I would but OW has been in the house for 2 days and he will not call me in front of her. Perhaps because he does not want her to hear his lies? Who knows what he has told her. Maybe he told her he was coming home to divorce me. What to believe. He said he would call me back in and hour. That hour has passed I bet I get a call a day from now and he will say. Sorry I couldn't call, she came home. Glad she has such an effect on you Hon! You spineless coward!!! Sorry, I venting again.
i know how you feel though.
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver and everyone.Saw H yesterday. He rang in the morning and asked if he could come and see me. I said yes and picked him up. We had lunch and I was a good girl and didn't mention sex once (apparently I scare him now!), but we did and it was very nice!! He said that he was worried that I was going to have whips and chains waiting, I said no, but there may be a pole in the bedroom for dancing - remember that Forgiver!!Anyway, I told him the shark story and he was suitably impressed. He tried to play it down, saying that I was always interested in diving and he wasn't, etc. But he asked lots of questions afterwards. I could tell he was impressed. I got him thinking...We didn't talk much about the relationship other than him saying that he didn't know if the changes in me would last. I told him that if I were faking it, I couldn't keep it up forever so time will tell. He seemed happy with that. HE's put on weight, he drinks a lot-he said "once I start I can't stop", he goes out a lot, then runs the next day (I can never understand this lifestyle, its seems self defeating). He's been there 3 weeks (I think) and he's already *****ing about his flatmates - they're untidy, etc. He talks about work all the time-its boring. I wish he'd get a life!! I don't like what I'm seeing, people. I know this sounds awful, but the thought of going back to this fills me with dread. The man I fell in love with was vibrant and fun. I want that man back!! We'd go to the beach, we'd go on picnics, now he's 15 minutes from the beach and never goes - I'm 40mins and there just about every weekend.I'm actually glad we're apart for a while, recovery would not work if we were together, because he is just so selfish right now. He told me he'd been spending a lot of money on alcohol and he'd have to start cutting back. He said he missed driving the car. He said he didn't want to live where I am at the moment and that I had always tried to get him to move, and now he's just seeing the benefits. He seems to talk "us". He talks about selling the house and moving and it seems to include me. I think he wants me, but he's scared, just like me. We both know we were unhappy and we both don't want to go back to that. I don't want to hate him. I'd rather be friends with him for a year than move back together now and hate him. He's my friend and I don't want to loose that, whatever happens.I'm still confused about me. As time goes on, I feel stronger, more independent, yet still yearn a lot for him and the relationship. There's big changes happening inside me. I'm not the same person I was last year, last month or last week. I have a routine, I have new interests, I take care of business. I have new goals. We were planning children, but that doesn't seem to be fitting into my plans anymore. I don't know how I feel about that.I'm scared and excited all at the same time. Is this weird? Is it normal? Am I now truley in Plan A?Another thing my H seemed impressed about: I bought tickets to see Destiny's Child and I'm going alone! I'm a survivor.......

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Forgiver:
So instead i go to gym and rockclimbing and kickboxing to be around people.<hr></blockquote> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Kickboxing? Sharks? You two are scaring me! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Liz, seriously, it's clear you're growing and thriving and he's not.Just don't burn yourself out.By him telling you he's spending too much on drinking, etc., he may be reaching out to you. Just a thought - keep it in mind as you continue to do what you're doing.Dave

Seahorse,The same way an adolesence growing into maturity, it is very exciting and at the same time it is scary ... new found strength and new prospective will make you a better person. This is plan A all about. <blockquote>quote:<hr>We both know we were unhappy and we both don't want to go back to that. I don't want to hate him. I'd rather be friends with him for a year than move back together now and hate him. He's my friend and I don't want to loose that, whatever happens.<hr></blockquote>
When he talk about R, you might want to let your feeling out. Learn to talk to H and [i]train[/b] H to just listen. Make it safe for H to listen by making sure that you just need for him to listen, no judgement, no demand ... [i]no action needed from H other than listen (as a freind).When both WS/BS realize that they don't want to go back to their old & failed relationship, it is very healthy. H needs to understand that people could change and you have demonstrated to H. You might need to help him out to get there ... be extra sensitive to his words and attitudes, he might try to reach you but don't know how yet. You are doing great ... keep it up. -RH-

Thanks you guys!!! You are so encouraging - just as well because between Forgiver and I we can really kick some [censored] you know!Seriously, I hadn't thought he might be reaching out, I'll take closer note next time and check it out (without taking over of course).Bad news. Mum died this morning. I was at work, dad called in tears, I was so sad and worried about him. The one day I didn't drive to work...Someone drove me home and I tied myself in knots driving back to his house (and yes I did speed, and I know I should be more careful at the moment, but I just wanted to get there). When I got to the nursing home, dad was ok, it was me who was a mess. I went and saw mum, even though I was very frightened too. I've never seen a dead person before. This is the first time I've lost anyone close to me. I'm glad I went to see her, it finalises it.The rest of the day I spent with dad. He called people and I made cups of tea.I came home tonight as he was ok, he knows he can call me and tomorrow we are going to the funeral place to sort all that out.I'm am so exhausted. My stomach is aching from being so worked up. I had a nice warm bath - I'm cold, I think I'm still in shock. I'm off to bed now.I'm so sad, so very sad, bud glad she's in peace. At least I got to say goodbye and tell her I love her-many don't get this chance.I told H he was sympathetic. Going to bed now.

Dear Seahorse, My condolences to you and your father. Losing a loved one is so hard. Know that your mum loved you and is no longer suffering. Those of us left living are feeling the pain. I will remember you and your family tonight in my prayers. Hugz,
L.

Thank you Orchid, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and prayers.Well, we buried mum today. Its been a tough day. I said a short speech in church and helped everyone out and seemed to be going fine. My H (who I really appreciated being there with his parents) was in a worse state than me, I was consoling him.Until they lowered the coffin into the grave at the cemetary, then I lost it. I cried so hard I nearly fell over. I had an overwhelming urge to tell them to bring it back up. I had to tell myself not to say anything, I think the only reason I didn't was because I was crying so much. I just couldn't handle the coffin going into the ground. I still can't when I see it in my mind, I'm sure I will have nightmares about this. Its not right, its night now and she's there alone in the cold. I can't bare this thought. It just kills me. Is this normal? I thought I'd nearly finished grieving, but it seems that its just begun. When I got home I had a shower, and again, I cried. They felt like the same tears I've cried for H. I'm grieving for two people, both whom I loved.My dad kept apologizing because he broke down in the church. He was so brave. My sister broke down outside the church, my niece broke down at the cemetery like me. My brother seemed to be ok, but I know he was hurting. We had a piper (we're Scottish) in the church, it didn't help, everyone broke down when they heard the pipes.I'm really feeling all this today guys. I feel so fragile. I want H back.. I want him to tell me he loves me and hold me, but instead I'm going to bed alone. I hold my doggy instead (he sat at the bathroom door moaning while I was crying in the shower, god love him). I know all this will pass, but it just helps to talk about it right now. I want to be alone, but I want people around too. I want to go to bed and I want to go and do things. I want to be strong and fall apart all at the same time. In other words, I'm confused and scared and hurting and grieving and wanting. I feel like ringing dad and telling him how I feel, but I know he will be upset and worry. I probably shouldn't be here alone, but I'm all I've got in the end.My FIL told me today that H told him that there'd be 'some chance' of reconciliation if I moved closer to the city. He wants me to sell the house. I thought 'bugger that'. Yes, I want to move, but I need to make sure dad's ok, then I'm ok. I've started going through stuff here to see what I can get rid of. If I move closer to the city it will mean a smaller place.But the thing is, if I keep trying to 'fit' the criteria H gives me, he keep finding a new thing I have to do for him. I will move from this house when I'm good and ready and not a moment before. I'm living for me now, I owe H nothing and he owes me a great deal. I'm thinking (of late anyway) that there's a few things HE needs to do if I'm to reconcile with him. I always thought my H was the bees knees. When I look at him, he still is the H I fell in love with, but as soon as he opens his mouth, yuck. Will this ever change?Anyway thanks for listening.

My FIL told me today that H told him that there'd be 'some chance' of reconciliation if I moved closer to the city. He wants me to sell the house. I thought 'bugger that'. Yes, I want to move, but I need to make sure dad's ok, then I'm ok. I've started going through stuff here to see what I can get rid of. If I move closer to the city it will mean a smaller place. Looks like you are considering it - your feelings give you away. You still love him. 
But the thing is, if I keep trying to 'fit' the criteria H gives me, he keep finding a new thing I have to do for him. I will move from this house when I'm good and ready and not a moment before. I'm living for me now, I owe H nothing and he owes me a great deal. I'm thinking (of late anyway) that there's a few things HE needs to do if I'm to reconcile with him. My feeling is, you need to negotiate before you get back together. You need to know that he is willing to work on the marriage. He needs to understand that you are willing to do it, but only under certain conditions. ( I am assuming that you feel that way.) I think Counseling should be one of them. You probably know the rest of them (conditions) better than any of us. If it is going to work, there are boundaries he cannot cross again. However, remember that he does not really know the real "new you." He thinks of you as you were before, even though he has seen hints of what you are now. If there were needs you were not meeting before, or if you had a problem with LB's, he may still be thinking of those things. He has a long way to come back. Sure it is mostly his fault, but he needs help getting back and if you still want him, you will have to give him that help. So, recapping it, It seems you still love him and want him back. He seems to be expressing that he may want to come back. You both need to understand what it will take to make it work again. What you are willing to do, and what he is willing to do. What you need, and what he needs. But remember you understand this stuff much better than he does, and he will need a lot of help. Are you willing to do what it takes to help him come back?

By the way, I feel for you with having trouble with your H and loosing your Mum. I still have both my parents and don't know how you feel. But I care, and hope you feel better soon. You seem so strong. Keep it up.

Its true SS, I love him very much, but there are parts of his 'new' personality that I really hate. I hate that he looks down on where I live (and he lived for most of his life). I have that he goes round telling people he is 'free' now. I hate that he can only talk about work and puts it before me. I hate that he put someone else before me or probably had sex with her. I also have a sneaking suspicion that he has been talking to friends who encouraged him to leave me. But they never came to find out my side of the story. For example, sex was lacking in our relationship, but it was boring - he would never fulfil my fantasies, so why would I bother?its been hard to concentrate on this stuff, especially today. I feel awful that we put mum in that box and put her in the ground and she's there alone and cold. I hate it.Thankfully, my sister rang me earlier and we went and had coffee. Something good has come out of mum's death, I haven't seen my sister in probably a year. It was great and hopefully we'll keep in touch more. I think when someone close dies, you sudden realise how precious the people you have left are.SS I am being patient with H, I have no choice, but to be honest, I can't see how we'll get back together. We're growing apart even more now. It hurts very much. I keep plan Aing, because I know that eventually there will be no love left and it will be easier to move on. I guess in a way I've given up on him, but there is a part that still holds on.I know I'll survive this because I have so far, but what of the future. I thought my H was my future. My own feelings confuse me.

I'm so heavy with grief. This has hit me far harder than I thought it would. All the stuff with H has come up again too. One minute I'm grieving for mum, then I'm grieving for H. It hurts so bad. My sister contacted me on Saturday and we had coffee, yesterday I went to dad, my brother and his family and my aunt was there. I think they all sensed I was not coping, so they helped me heaps.Its mothers day on Sunday (in Australia anyway), my counsellor suggested I be with family or do something, so I'm going to try to organise something.My counsellor also suggested that I need a plan for reconciliation with H, as I seem to be in limbo. I think its probably a good idea and I will think about it over the next few weeks. Did others do this?I've been cleaning out stuff from my house. Getting rid of stuff I don't need, there's a bit of it. I can't move right now, I need stability for a little while, but I'm getting ready for it.I wish I knew everything was going to be ok with H, its worrying me a lot right now.

(((((SEAHORSE))))) I am sorry I have been away for so long and I am so sorry about your Mum! It reminds me of the old book Why Bad Things Happen To Good People. You have taken on so much over the past few months. Your spirit is incredible. Everything you are feeling is normal. It is important to LET yourself feel. I tend to surpress feelings- this is not good. You have to go through the process of grieving for both your H and your Mum. Your Mum's passing brings closure to your restless soul and you know in time you will heal- she did nothing to hurt you. It was natural. She only loved you her whole life. Meanwhile our selfish, cowardly &$&$)#@! #&&#%)#&%)! #&%)#(&% #(%_)@*$&)@*$)@)$&) @&$)(@$) !!!!! husbands are hurting us on purpose!! This is so hard! I wish you could come and live with me in the States! There's always room for you here! We would make quite a team! Thelma and Louise! My H scared of my sex drive too! i've been pretty shocking lately. We went to an art gallery last night where a friend of ours had a show. Some of our friends from the city came out (they have no idea my H is a cheating &*)(*)*$#!) They were pretty entertained by my new randy side in public places. they got quite a kick and suggested I come visit them in the city, there are several clubs they would like me to go to with them so I can join them dancing on the bar. Remember Coyote Ugly? My H is taken aback since I used to be pretty conservative in public. Not that I'm a pig- just VERY confident and flirtatious. And my humor has been right on!! Made many people laugh with my jokes. I was quite popular. It was a nice ego boost. But I can tell my H is confused- I could have scared him. Oh well!
Take care! I will pray for you and your Mum tonight- I usually do anyway!
Forgiver

Seahorse, <blockquote>quote:<hr>Taken from Forgiver's thread ...BTW, my H and I had sex (notice I didn't say 'made love') last weekend. We went for a second time but it just wasn't happening for him. This is unusual as he prides himself on 'being ready'. I wonder if its a trait in WS? Its scared me at first because I thought it was me - he's not turned on by me, blah, blah, blah, but I try not to worry about it now. Don't let him lay his guilt onto you.<hr></blockquote>
Probably you drained H up on the first one [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ... Good thing that you didn't take it personally. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I'm so heavy with grief. This has hit me far harder than I thought it would. All the stuff with H has come up again too. One minute I'm grieving for mum, then I'm grieving for H. It hurts so bad. My sister ...<hr></blockquote>
Deal with one pain at the time ... take their supports and cherish them, they are shoulders to cry on. How is your mother's day ? ... it is hard specially w/o your mum. My MIL (she passed away long time ago), her birthday is on next weekend, on mother's day (US), my mom lived closer to you (Eastern Java) than to me ..., the only mom, that is close, the mother of my 2 D, rejects every attempt of my plan A. I am fighting w/ very skillfull OM and 5.5 years of A. <blockquote>quote:<hr>My counsellor also suggested that I need a plan for reconciliation with H, as I seem to be in limbo. I think its probably a good idea and I will think about it over the next few weeks. Did others do this?<hr></blockquote> You need to be in plan A or plan B ... your part is make it safe for H to come back however it is H part to come back. Stale M is not a reason to rush anything but to let A dies naturally. You have to see what is acceptable amend to you, make the list. Don't give the list to your H nor your MC until H is repent (fog lifted up) and ready to work on M.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>I wish I knew everything was going to be ok with H, its worrying me a lot right now.<hr></blockquote> Take it one day at a time ... heal from sudden loss of your mum. You need to be a skillfull giver. You deal with H when you are ready. Let him go for now. Just remember that Lord is our refuge and as a Father, HE knows what is best for us, HIS children. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] -RH-

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I'm so heavy with grief. This has hit me far harder than I thought it would. All the stuff with H has come up again too. One minute I'm grieving for mum, then I'm grieving for H. It hurts so bad. <hr></blockquote>Perhaps you should take a few weeks off. Not worry about H. He should be helping you right now and it may with draw units from your bank to think of him now when you need his help the most and are not getting it. Try to give you thoughts to something more neutral, less damaging.
I think Redhat is right, just deal with the loss of your Mum now. <blockquote>quote:<hr>
My counselor also suggested that I need a plan for reconciliation with H, as I seem to be in limbo. I think its probably a good idea and I will think about it over the next few weeks. Did others do this? <hr></blockquote>That's what a good councilor or coach is for. Put a plan on paper, get the thoughts out of your head so you can think of other things, not H all the time. For me, once I write it all down, much of the doubt and confusion leaves me. I let the paper remember and worry for me. Many of us are praying for you and Forgiver ( and your H's ) There are many more that read that don't post that are thinking and praying for you. Remember that we all care about each other. We hope for the best for you. One last thing. It is pretty evident that you have outgrown your husband. You have improved yourself, studied, and changed. He has not. It is natural that you should wonder if you should just go on - let him go. These are the times I pray. HE knows these things, I do not. I hope it ( prayer) works for you. My wife has said she prayed many times to know if she should stay with me, and always got the answer to stay. ( she wondered why though.) Finally I started to catch up with her. She says now she understands why, and she is happy she did not leave. I hope you find your answers. Again we all care about you, you are not alone - even if you can't see us.

Hi Forgiver, Redhat and Still seeking. Thanks all of you. I thank everyone for their support. This has been a hard time. I've never lost someone close, but to loose two at once has been big. But I'm determined to get through this, I'm my mother's daughter and I'm going to take what I learned from her (about being determined and stubborn) and ask her to guide me (she's looking after me now I know that). <blockquote>quote:<hr>Meanwhile our selfish, cowardly &$&$)#@! #&&#%)#&%)! #&%)#(&% #(%_)@*$&)@*$)@)$&) @&$)(@$) !!!!! husbands are hurting us on purpose!! This is so hard! I wish you could come and live with me in the States! There's always room for you here! We would make quite a team! Thelma and Louise! <hr></blockquote>I've often wondered how I will get over the resentment of this deliberate act of hurt, but I guess its once step at a time. Hey, if we're going to do the Thelma and Louise thing, could we have parachutes please? <blockquote>quote:<hr> They were pretty entertained by my new randy side in public places. they got quite a kick and suggested I come visit them in the city, there are several clubs they would like me to go to with them so I can join them dancing on the bar. Remember Coyote Ugly <hr></blockquote>I start my bellydance class tonight (I need these fun distractions right now) maybe I can come and join you on the bar? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I'm doing much better today as you've probably notice, so I'm enjoying the relief from the grief while I have it. Yesterday was a 'shocker'. Thanks all, I will keep praying (to all the gods -I'm not religious but respect all religions), for all of us and know that you are thinking and praying for me too. A burden shared is a burden halved or something like that...RH - I guess I'm trying to push things, aren't I? I'll take yours and SS' advice and make the list, but keep plan Aing and keep the list to myself. I've been feeling that 'if only' H would come back I'd feel better and some of the hurt would go away. I guess that is pain and insecurity and fear. I haven't voiced any of this to him, in fact when he rang I made sure he was ok - he was a mess at the funeral - and my counsellor pointed out that he was probably grieving for my mum and our relationship. I hadn't thought of that, but it MAY explain why he was in such a mess. Thanks guys I need you to put me back on track every now and then!SH

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
I've often wondered how I will get over the resentment of this deliberate act of hurt<hr></blockquote>Hi Liz - will you consider this:I don't believe that WSs do their thing to deliberately hurt their spouses. In fact, it appears that most of them have no clue of the pain they've inflicted until they beam back down. Further, in the throes of their adventure, "recovered" WSs have stated that they felt that their BSs deliberately were hurting THEM.Write all this off as part of the disease. Just try, OK?Dave

Actually that's interesting WAT, because when this first happened, WS sent me an email saying 'I would never intentionally hurt you' which I thought was ironic. I'll try to convince myself its the Aliens.He's still in fog. He rang re a family get together (his family) and asked if I was going. (He avoided asking me, note that). I said I'd like to catch up but that I didn't want to intrude. I asked him if he could tell me if he really wanted me there or not? Could he tell me the truth?His reply was 'I can't make decisions like that right now' - he's still foggy. It's amazing. I'm the one suffering the crisis and he's unable to make a simple decision. He dosen't want to give an inch. I'm going to go for an hour, I have another party to attend that evening anyway.Oh well, keep living for me. Can't rely on H yet. I don't think he trusts me yet WAT, I know he thinks I'm trying to manipulate him, so I'll still need to keep plan Aing my [censored] off. He's driving me nuts but I try to stay focussed. I started salsa classes last night-not a great idea as it really reminded me I'm partnerless. I felt yuck afterwards. If this keeps up, I'll drop the class, I don't need to feel this way. I've still got my bellydancing and yoga and will schedule a dive soon.Average day today. Missing mum, missing H. HAve a day off tomorrow (Friday) to regroup. Think I'll do something nice for myself.

Seahorse,
Your posts are starting to "feel" different to me. Your attitude seems to be shifting. Is your love bank draining or is it just me ? Is it time for plan B ? Don't let it go to far. You need to do it while you still have some feelings left. You have been really strong. You think about what you do. What a great plan A. Great improvements in your life, many changes for the better. You have weathered the passing of your mum with grace and style. You must hurt but you do what you have to do anyway. What a gal.
( what a daft husband [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ) Sorry, I know he's in the fog. Keep doing those things and don't give up, but be careful and don't go too long in plan A. SS)[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hi SS, I'm trying to be patient with H, I try to focus on what the task at hand is. Mum's death made me relieve the grief for my H, I don't know whether that is a setback or a step forward. I'd like to think its all a part of the process.Plan B is a big step, I don't know I've demonstrated enough to H that I'm willing to change. He dosen't trust me, he's waiting for me to crack, but I'm not going to because I know all this is out of my control. Going to plan B is in my control and I don't want to make any life changing decisions while I'm still grieving, and I don't think I'm quite ready. When I see my H, I know I love him, its when he opens his mouth that the problem!I'm preparing though. I have my letter from my lawyer ready, I'm sorting through stuff at home for when I move, I'm getting a second casual job to help me through the initial financial hardship it will all bring. I want to make sure dad is ok before I bring another crisis on myself. (I love this house and even though the location dosen't suit me anymore, it would be another loss- I would grieve for this house).I just read Formerhopelessone's post on forgivers thread, this gave me a some hope. If I thought the real H would walk through my door tomorrow (when he is supposedly coming to see me, but we'll see)I would welcome him with open arms, but right now I'm stuck with the alien once a week.It would be so easy to walk away right now, much easier, but I don't think I should do this to myself right now, I've only plan A'd for 3 months, I'm giving H six, but noted, I will keep monitoring my attitude towards him.[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Seahorse,Thought I would drop by your thread and post something hopeful, I hope. The alien is scary -- as all aliens would be to us humans. In alien state my H was completely weird, all his values changed, he was not interested in any of the goals we had been discussing our whole M, he became uninterested in material things (a total change since my H could be the poster child for materialize in the US -- he believes whoever dies with the most toys wins). I was totally freaked out!!!!!!!! I noticed these things before I discovered the A, but did not know the cause until after I found out about the A. It is really hard to live with the alien -- this is not the person you fell in love with. My H was rude and withdrawn from me. He did not do anything for me. He did not care if he hurt my feelings -- in fact, I believe he deliberately was mean to me. He was not proud of my accomplishments -- during this time, I was accepted to law school (on scholarship) and started my studies. This was something I had been working on for about 6 months -- studying for LSATs, etc. He wasn't enthusiasic or support of this effort.All of these things were completely opposite of how my H really is. The reasons I fell in love with him are because he is kind, generous, loving, has the biggest heart in the world, tolerant, open to new ideas, thoughtful, insightful, caring of me and our dogs, always wants to make me happy, looks out for me, incredibly smart in opposite ways from me, has a zest for life, funny, silly, adorable and has the cutest bu** in the world!!!!!!!!! When he turned into the alien the only thing he still had left was the bu**. I couldn't believe the change.Well, now the real H is back. I am thrilled. Actually, the real H is back only better. H has been upgraded. He is more insightful and caring than ever. I really believe and feel he has a better understanding of his own feelings and now realizes what we almost lost. He says he is sorry for all the hurt he has caused and thanks me for being strong enough to build a bridge for us to recover. Hang in there. You can only make little baby steps when the alien is in control. I believe the little baby steps are recognized by the WH, but they just do not want to let go of the fog. It will slowly dissapate and then finally one big wind blows in and clears the final remnants away. Patience is the hardest cross to bear during this difficult time, but is your greatest weapon. It seems weird that our WHs don't trust us after they have betrayed us, but that is how they feel. Keep thinking you have to earn his trust -- just like he will eventually have to earn your when H decides he wants the M and wants to recover. You must demonstrate to him that you have changed, will continue to change and you do not want the old marriage. I shared some of the concepts from MB with my H right after D-day #3. I think that helped him believe that I wasn't just talking about changes and just saying that to trick him into coming back so things could go back to the old ways. It also helped my H to realize that I truly understood the A and was not going to wait until he opened his heart to me again and then make him suffer for having the A. Remember that WHs are scared. They like to run and not face reality. I also want to say that when your H decides he wants to recover your M, things will not be magical immediately. This was hard for both me and my H. I probably should have posted this to Forgiver because it is applicable to her situation, but the first 2 week after my H was home were the hardest of all. It was totally weird. Our moods were never in sync. It was like we forgot how to communicate. We were both edgy an didn't know what to say. The best times we had were when we went out and did some activity -- dinner, played games, etc. After the first few days, I wasn't sure I wanted to recover the M -- kind of funny after all the work I had done to get to that point. Just keep this in mind when you get to that point. Come here and vent even more. Patience, tolerance and communication will get you through this period.Hang in there. I have been following you -- your thread was one of the first ones I read when I first came here. It really helped me. I don't always get a chance to post but I try to check in and see how things are going.You have already demonstrated how strong you are. You will survive not matter what the outcome. The outcome is really worth all the effort. Anything really worthwhile takes effort. By the way, my H now comes here and posts -- he is very inspirational -- he posts under LoveHerMadly.FHO

Hi Seahorse -- I have been following your posts and have prayed for you through this and the loss of your mum. I just wanted to let you know that something in your last post made me laugh out loud -- it really hit home. Something like, I know I love my H when I see him, but then he opens his mouth. Same thing here. You are so strong and are an inspiration to me.

Hello seahorse,
I am the "reborn spouse" of FormerHopelessOne My wife and I are in recovery and things are going GREAT! Let me start by telling you that it wasn't easy. While I was having my A I felt like a different person. I isolated myself and lived in my own fantasy world. I shut my wife out. Funny thing is, I was looking for something she could give me. I didn't realize it, when I did, I was free of the fog. I took her hand and we walked out of this fog and back into our life together. Don't give up hope! Once your H's fog is lifted you have so much to love to look forward to. Now let me tell you about what I as the WS went threw during the A. I hope this will help you to understand your H. I felt guilty for what I was doing (believe it or not). I was always trying to protect myself from the guilt. I would try to JUSTIFY it, give myself reasons to be having the A. One way I did this was by being mean and hurtful to my S. The whole idea of doing this was to make my W be hurtful and unloving back, this would be a reason to do what I was already doing! Now here is another kicker, there would never be enough reasons to do what I was doing. Confused yet? I never said this was gonna be easy. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] It turned into this vicious circle. Mind you this wasn't something I planed out, I just did it because it was a type of self defense reaction (to protect me from the guilt). Something I learned somewhere along my path of life. Now, once I realized what I was doing, I was able to stop.Don't help him find reason to do what he is doing, give him reason to NOT do it. Spend your energy not giving him reasons to do what he is doing. All I can say is plan a&b your [censored] off. This will help him to figure things out himself.I know my W was ready to give up even after I was out of the fog but she held on. Maybe you are going threw the same thing. Just remember things will get better if you work at it. It's not easy, but nothing good ever is...

Hi FHO and LHM, Your story really gives me hope. I am so down at the moment I need this. Mum's death has put me back at square one. I'm not coping well at all and have been quite depressed for a few days now. The WS point of view does help me somewhat. I can't help it, but I have to analyse, its just that its such peculiar behaviour and I don't know how to deal with it right now. I'm hoping that eventually I will pick up again (mood wise) and it won't matter so much. I was going so well in plan A and today have stuffed up. I sort of realised that my H would keep finding excuses to leave me last week. He told his father that there would be 'some' chance of reconciliation if I moved house closer to the city. This seems to me a cop out. If I do this, which I'm not ready to, he will find another reason. I want him back because he loves me, not because I moved house or whatever. Is this sane, I don't know, maybe I expect too much.This is the exchange we had today: H came home and mowed the lawn (thank god I didn't have to do it again)-so he was helpful-this is 'normality'.He told me I have to put on weight and that he was very concerned that I looked anorexic - possibly normal. I'm ok by the way. I've been to the docs for a bood test and will get results soon (I have thyroid problems - it may have been put out of kilter by all the shocks I've had), I'm eating, but actually, it may explain the depression if it is out of whack. Then again, I've got every right to be depressed. Plus its mother's day tomorrow...
Anyway back to H:
He was very chatty in the car on the way over to SIL's-son's first birthday. - all he talks about is work, which is boring, but I listen very hard and try not to say too much. I get the feeling he is not that happy with his flatmates, but I don't point that out.- ok, so this is all 'normal' for my h.At the inlaws the personality changed. He sat on the lounge and watched TV, he criticised women, try to kick a ball at me, etc, etc. I walk out and made a phone call actually to Ninatoo, to ask her to remind me why I was plan Aing, which helped. He came out looking for me.After some time I got fed up with how he was treating me and told him so. He told me this has been really hard for him. He said there are a lot of feelings for me still, but I wonder if he's moved out so that they go away and its easier for him to leave me. He said that he was committed to this 6 month rental on the apartment. Unfortunatly I did the 'needy' thing. I really hate when I do that, and I haven't done it for so long, now I'm back where I started. I'm putting my current state of mind down to grief. Mum's death has really knocked me for a six, I feel like I'm back a the start with H. I cry for mum and him - I told him that too.Anyway, after a bit of the needy stuff I told him I can't do this for too much longer, that he's 'killing' me and that mum's death and him leaving has been too tough. I did something else I'm not sure I should of. I told him about his friend telling me to leave him. This friend is the one he's flatting with (a guy). I told him about how he had hugged me and that it threw me in turmoil. He seemed shocked, but I'm nearly positive this friend has told my H to leave me although H denies it. We went for a coffee and had a nice. He kept asking me where I was going, and rang me to make sure I was home - I avoided telling him where I was going or with whom and didn't tell him I was home, that I had pulled over in the car to take his call. He actually asked me if I was going to see someone from work or someone I met over the internet. I just laughed. He thinks I'm having an affair.I see H and I definately love the real him, but yes I am loosing hope. I just want to wait a bit for plan B because I don't know if what I'm feeling is because of mum's death of whether its real. I don't want to bring another crisis on myself. Once I'm in plan B I can't go back. But what if I keep LBing like this. What if I become the stupid needy person again. Yuck. I'd run too. What if today's actions have pushed him away again - undoubtedly it has he says he's scared of seeing me. I mentioned OW too. I said I didn't know if he was still seeing this other girl - he had a look of guilt on his face, so it confirmed it. That makes me mad. Oh hell, I was going so well in plan A, then mum's death... I couldn't believe how hard it all hit me. I'm so angry with everyone and everything. I can't take time off work right now either. I wish I could get away again. That helped so much before. Urghhh! I hate this.I've given myself six months from the first d-day. So that means the 26th July is a tentative for plan B. Thanks for your prayers unsureheart. I'm glad I made you laugh, we need that.Actually i was thinking today that if anyone asked about H I would tell them he was on 'long service leave'. Just for a laugh.Just reading my own post makes me realise how far backwards I've gone. I sure hope that nothing else goes wrong for me (I'm waiting for number three).

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
{{{{((((SEAHORSE))))}}}} ... I sense that you are back again on your feet, this is good !. You seem recover nicely from double whammy of grief. Are you ready to get back to working on M ?.What is his reasonning for you to move back closer to the city ?. You have to see if it is an excuses or legitimate plan A's action.
[quote][qb]I want him back because he loves me, not because I moved house or whatever. Is this sane, I don't know, maybe I expect too much.<hr></blockquote>
Nope you are not asking too much, we all are asking the same thing from our WS, 1000% commitment. However at this junction H is not there yet, be patience. Remember you are responsible for your H' love. If it is a legit reason, a chance to fill in EN's, see what are your net gain/net losses on LB$. <blockquote>quote:<hr>This is the exchange we had today: H came home and mowed the lawn (thank god I didn't have to do it again)-so he was helpful-this is 'normality'.<hr></blockquote>
Do you reward H ? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] You need to train your H. You have to give him a credit to try to move to 'normality'. His concern about your health (eating) is a good sign, if it is a genuine one, it is a huge progree and you should stay away from plan B ... not there yet. It seems that H still fillin some EN of yours. <blockquote>quote:<hr>He was very chatty in the car on the way over to SIL's-son's first birthday. - all he talks about is work, which is boring, but I listen very hard and try not to say too much. I get the feeling he is not that happy with his flatmates, but I don't point that out.- ok, so this is all 'normal' for my h.<hr></blockquote> Great job !, just be there for him. <blockquote>quote:<hr>At the inlaws the personality changed. He sat on the lounge and watched TV, he criticised women, try to kick a ball at me, etc, etc.<hr></blockquote>Does your inlaw knows about his A ?. I forgot about it, could you refresh my memory ? Paxil took some of my brain cell away. <blockquote>quote:<hr>After some time I got fed up with how he was treating me and told him so. He told me this has been really hard for him. He said there are a lot of feelings for me still, but I wonder if he's moved out so that they go away and its easier for him to leave me. He said that he was committed to this 6 month rental on the apartment.<hr></blockquote>Good thing that you try to communicate with H about your feeling, but tone down on the anger part or don't bring it up when you are in anger. You need to talk R (heart-2-heart), but no LB. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Unfortunatly I did the 'needy' thing. I really hate when I do that, and I haven't done it for so long, now I'm back where I started. I'm putting my current state of mind down to grief. Mum's death has really knocked me for a six, I feel like I'm back a the start with H. I cry for mum and him - I told him that too.Anyway, after a bit of the needy stuff I told him I can't do this for too much longer, that he's 'killing' me and that mum's death and him leaving has been too tough. I did something else I'm not sure I should of. I told him about his friend telling me to leave him. This friend is the one he's flatting with (a guy). I told him about how he had hugged me and that it threw me in turmoil. He seemed shocked, but I'm nearly positive this friend has told my H to leave me although H denies it. <hr></blockquote>
Remember no judgement ! ... there is nothing wrong to be needy, you married for love & care & support !. Yes, most of WS will be shock if they pay a bit attention on how much hurt that they have 'cause us. Good job ... lend your heart out, I know it is a risk that you took but H seems take it very well. Could you read the Venusian Lady's link under my signature and see if it will work for you ?. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I see H and I definately love the real him, but yes I am loosing hope. I just want to wait a bit for plan B because I don't know if what I'm feeling is because of mum's death of whether its real. I don't want to bring another crisis on myself. Once I'm in plan B I can't go back. <hr></blockquote>
IMVHO, you are far away from plan B ... Don't loose hope, there are many positive thing !. H still show 'care', willing to give his shoulder to you, worrying of loosing you. Be patience, you could win this one. <blockquote>quote:<hr>But what if I keep LBing like this. What if I become the stupid needy person again. Yuck. I'd run too. What if today's actions have pushed him away again - undoubtedly it has he says he's scared of seeing me. <hr></blockquote>
Have you ever think that H is scared of himself too ?. He might be afraid that there are some 'feeling' comes out from the encounter w/ you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Next encounter just have fun with H ... slow down on R talk. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I mentioned OW too. I said I didn't know if he was still seeing this other girl - he had a look of guilt on his face, so it confirmed it. That makes me mad. Oh hell, I was going so well in plan A, then mum's death... I couldn't believe how hard it all hit me. I'm so angry with everyone and everything. <hr></blockquote>
At this point you should let go, don't try to 'read' WS. Just rely on his actions or hard prove from snooping. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Just reading my own post makes me realise how far backwards I've gone. I sure hope that nothing else goes wrong for me (I'm waiting for number three).<hr></blockquote>
You can't change the past nor the present but your future in in your hand. Do positive thing for you, go right back to plan A for you.This is the first weekend of my WW's visitation of my 2 D, it really hit me (my 2 D will stay with her 'till Monday morning). However I don't let it get to me. I am going to replace a window in the kitchen, getting busy and believe it or not ... it is a plan A action that I have to do. Then I will see unfaithful and reread again language of love. I will need a tissue box [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ....Happy mommy day !. -RH-

Liz - we don't call this a roller coaster for nuthin'.LBs, needy, too many questions - we've all been there. You can't react to every corrent in the river and neither will he. Here's the way to get past this: you can't change what's done, so use it to your advantage - next encounter, be the STRONG Seahorse we all know you to be. Show some contrast, do a 180, SHOCK HIM!Got it?Dave

Yep I got what both of you said. There's ups and downs, move on, don't beat yourself up. I'm only human I guess and will take two steps forward and one back every now and then. RH- Inlaws do not know about the affair. I want to tell them, but am hesitant to. I know FIL suspects an affair. I'm waiting for the right opportunity to 'matter of factly' tell them.The bad news was today I cried at mums grave and was a mess for most of the day. I think I really worried my dad a fair bit actually.The good news was that H called me for lunch. So I saw him twice in one weekend!We had a good afternoon. He's still a bit foggy - won't let me drive him home, etc, I don't push it. Its not such a big issue right now with me. We did discuss R a bit. He said he refuses to live with someone who has sex once a month. Fair enough. I said that I know things were'nt very good and I've taken responsibility for that. I said that he would have to step out of his comfort zone to improve the situation too.I said I knew that he hated that I tried to control him. I told him I realised that I was making him responsible for my fun in life. I told him I was taking responsibility for these too and working on developing my own life.I said the 'I love you' too. He gave me a big hug but no 'I love you' - its ok, the other stuff made up for it. Having 50% genuine H for an afternoon was a treat. He said he wasn't ready to move back with me yet. I agreed that it was too soon right now and that it wouldn't help either of us just yet.I think I did pretty well actually. Considering the morning I had (I took my aunt to the airport and took the wrong exit then forgot where I parked the car), the afternoon gave me a lift. I was very together, funny, suggestive and easygoing. He said that I was very different from the person he knew. I know he dosen't trust me so I've got to show him that this is me now. I'm trying not to get hopes up too high - I know the fog may settle again and I half expect it too, but at least I know he's thinking about me. He's been asking a lot about the diving too. Yay, plan A is starting to work!! Thank God. I'll read that Venusian, 180 thing, that might be good to throw in just a little variation.Wow, new floors for WAT, new windows for RH, plus your EN extrodinaires -you really are all rounders aren't you?

Seahorse,Keep up the good work -- when you and H have fun together, you deposit LB$. Remember what my H said in his post about wanting to make me be horrible to him so he could be justified in what he was doing. That sounds like your H's behavior at the party -- if you are really mean to him at the party, then he will get sympathy from everyone and will be able to say, "see how she treats me, its no wonder I had an A." This is what he can say to himself also. But, when you Plan A, he doesn't have those excuses. Then he probably just feels even worse about himself. Like, have you ever done something mean and then the person you did it too was really nice and that made you want to hate them more. Well, you didn't really hate them, you hated yourself. Anyway, you seem to be in a little better frame of mind. Keep you mind focused on these good times whenever you get down. FHO

Thanks FHO, When I saw H we talked a bit about R and M. He was picking out things like "you had a bit of extra weight on" and "you said these things about my parents". I just listened and resisted the urge to defend myself, which is really hard when your being attacked by someone you love. I told him I can't change the past but can work on the future. He has sent me this email:Good morning SH, Another gloriuos day weather-wise in Sydney today, a bit cooler this
morning. Thanks for your time yesterday with lunch and drinks at the beach, I really
enjoyed it!Let me know when you want to get out in the garden for our major hacking session. Are you planning to do it this Saturday? Maybe a lunch and dinner and fun will follow.I understand how difficult a day it was for you yesterday, Mothers Day. Keep it up, if you need to talk you can always call me.WSThis is about 60% H which I think is positive. I know right now that I have to plan A consistently and keep reassuring him, keep working on me. I was thinking I might plan a 180 weeked soon too though. I was reading Venusian lady post and it seems to suggest that I don't want him to get too confortable. I let you know the results.Thanks for the insight into WS behaviour to both you FHO and your wonderful H. It helps when you keep getting reminded to not take what they do personally, otherwise it can be devastating.I must say, I needed this from him to keep going, if he does become foggy again, it will get me through. Now, I have to go plan the fun bit for Saturday night [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Ok Help, I'll post on GQII so someone sees this. I just received his mobile bill. This guy wants to be found out, he hasn't changed the address. It goes to 7th may, and there is lots of contact with Thailand and here. I picked a number and rung it in Oz and it was her.Help, what do I do. I'm in shock. I knew it would be so but it dosen't make it any easier.Help, I don't know what to do. I will take a copy of the bill and seal it again and give it to him. Do I keep plan Aing to my date (July) or do I tell him again no contact. That is a condition. He hasn't really committed yet to working on marriage. i know he still dosen't trust me. Its just I'm so mad, so disapointed. I'm trebling.I didn't tell her it was me, she's so stupid, she told me exactly who she was. Maybe he's lying to her again. Saying its over.Man I am so pissed off I feel like ringing now and breaking off saturday's date. I won't do anything until I relax but some opinions would be appreciated.

Seahorse,This doesn't change anything. You know he is still in the fog. If you bring it up, it will be a huge LB. By the e-mail he sent you, he is seeing some changes and enjoyed spending time with you. If you attack him about this, he will say to himself, "See, I knew you were just pretending to be nice to get me back and then once I got caught up again, everything went back to the way it used to be."If you cannot take it anymore, then go to Plan B, but do not do this until you are absolutely sure you are ready -- no emotional reaction. My other advice is that if the snooping is too devestating for you, stop doing it. I know that everytime I snooped, I was so incredibly hurt at what I found. It was like someone stuck a sword through my middle and was sawing it back and forth. I stopped snooping because it was too hard. You know your H is still deep in the fog. Deposit some more LB$, then if you go to Plan B, you must do it in a calm manner -- with no emotional outbursts. Don't accuse him of anything (I know this will be hard, but the last image you want him to remember is how wonderful and caring you are). IMHO, I don't think this phone bill changes anything -- you knew he was more than likely in contact, right? I know it REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hurts. This is where you have to be strong. Plan something great for the weekend -- something your H likes to do. Maybe something that brings back old memories of the good times -- I know when your WS is in the fog, he says that everything about the marriage was terrible -- they rewrite history -- but this is not the truth. Try to revive some of those memories, very subtly, nothing overt. Think back to when you were dating -- what did you do, what did you wear, what perfume did you use, etc. Do these things to stir up memories.Hang in there, Seahorse. It sounds like your Plan A is beginning to have an effect -- don't backslide and undo the great work you have done. Stay strong -- you can do it. You and Forgiver were my inspiration when I first started coming here.I believe you are strong enought to persevere.FHO

(((SEAHORSE)))
COme on girl! We have to hold each other up here. You knew he was probably still in contact. I know my H is in contact but I do not bring it up. I keep acting aloof and calm around my H. Make suggestions of things to do and let the ideas fall where they may. I can tell he is crawling out of his skin. He probably just wants to say "It's over. I'm leaving." And go running out the door. But I dragged it out last night. I went to 2 hrs of KB I was tired and was not about to end my M in such an exhausted state of mind. So I took a shower watched some TV and went to bed. He slept ont he couch. I have a meeting after school. SO I do not know what time i will be home. I am prepared for a 15 minute conversation with him leaving for his mom's amnd then him fleeing the country within the week. I could be totally wrong. I am getting a bit confused with what exactly I am suppossed to do or say. One moment I get the feeling I am suppossed to end it that I am being a doormat. But if I am not seeing him, I am not a doormat. Then I get the feeling i am suppossed to laty it ont eh line that I want to work it out but as long as it continues my love gets drained. I woudl think that would make it easier for him- which I do not want to do. He may think, if I carry this out long enough, she will fall out of love and file. But I cant's do that because I still believe it will end and besides I don't want to lose my house. Thanks for your help Seahorse. I really need you. The fact that your situation sounds better gives me hope. Thanks.
Forgiver

Thanks FHO and Forgiver, I'm a bit down this morning, should have drunk more water and less port.I won't say anything to him, I'll just continue as normal. Thank goodness I don't have to see him till the weekend - it gives me time to regroup.I knew the contact was still happening, I guess in the back of your mind you hope its not, especially when he starts to act normally.I don't normally snoop, but I am keeping this bills as evidence for when I need them if I need them. In some way, the confirmation hurts, but I still stand by what I said. If he really thinks she will make him happy he should go and be with her. They can have each other. It will hurt but I will survive, I've proven that. Forgiver, I am thinking about you and the situation all the time now, I believe he dosen't know what he wants. I know they don't deserve it but in a way I feel sorry for them because they know they are screwing up their lives. H said that on the weekend, he said that if we didn't get back together he knew it would be his loss. I couldn't believe it. But again, I don't get my hopes up as it could be only a temporary thinning of the fog.

Seahorse -- I know just where you are on the cell phone. I hadn't been snooping for a while and then looked at a receipt from his pants pocket when he came over one Sunday/we were going for a bike ride. It was for a coffee shop near the OW's apartment THAT morning. I kept it in check all day and then asked that afternoon whether he had seen her that weekend and he said no. I told him that I knew he was lying. It was awful.My new approach now is that I am not going to snoop at all. It hurts me way too much. It makes me LB and it makes him panic. This has helped a bit/he is calling more. It helps that he is not in the house sometimes (it lets me calm down) and other times it's awful because he's out of the house my mind just runs wild with all kind of weird thoughts about what he is or is not doing.So, my advice (albiet not the most wise as I'm new at this too) is to not snoop if you cannot keep yourself from confronting him. I know I can't because it just hurts so much. There is a great post over on General QII from Bramble Rose about whether we all want to be right or want to be married. My problem has always been wanting to be right. I think the snooping is a part of that and my confronting him is a part of that too and consequently it pushes him away. Yes, it hurts that they are still in contact. I hope somebody comes on here and gives you some tried and true advice on this. Keep up your plans and try not to fixate on the cell phone bill. It will just make you nuts (not that we're not all already a bit nuts as a result of all of this).

"Steady she goes ""She's taking on water captain" "Man the pumps, Hold the course"Seahorse, you are a true MB'er, you'll make it. Someday all this pain will only be a distant memory. I don't know what the outcome will be - but YOU WILL be doing great. I know it. SS

Seahorse,I agree with SS. You are stronger because of this experience. Remember that it is how we react to the situations that life challenges us with that truly defines us. You have grown from this experience and become a better person -- that is turning a negative into a positive. Plan something fun for the weekend with your H. Don't think about the rest of what is happening. Pretend the OW doesn't exist. Keep you message consistent -- your words and actions should match. You have told your H that you are a better person than you were and have grown; you don't want to go back to your old M; you have learned a lot about your own needs and how to meet his; etc. Don't blow it all by LBing. This will show him that you don't really mean what you say. I know you can do it. Vent, vent, vent in here. None of this is fair and it is a shame that we (BSs) have to go through this. But look on the bright side -- without going through this, you wouldn't have learned all that you have. I think about this a lot. You know, if I could go back in time and undo everything (my H really wishes he could) would I? I have to answer no, because I have learned so much. Both my H and I have. We have really grown -- I guess that sometimes we can only grow through pain (remember growing pains from when you were a child -- I used to get leg cramps all the time). Let us know how things are going -- we are here for you.FHO

Big Vent coming up...Hi SS and FHO, Thanks for your support. This week has been tough. I still feel the effects of loosing mum (naturally), I'm upset there is still contact (even though I knew it would be so) and work has been pushing me - but I'm realising I've got to stand up for myself or they will keep doing it. I've started, you just think they'd be a little more understanding?I'm thinking of telling H to change the address of his phone account so I won't be tempted to open any of these bills. I don't need any more proof, even legally, do I? I hope this is all part of the rollercoaster. I was going really well, but maybe I expect to much of myself - I've just lost mum. See, I've never lost anyone close before, so I do know what to expect. I printed some stuff from the net last night. I'll read it later. Grief from death is quite different from grief from loss (eg of H). In fact, the death grief is more peaceful (yet sad), while the loss makes me angry.Yep I'm angry right now. Angry I'v been deserted by two people at times when I needed them. I know it sounds absurd, but thats how I feel, I'm just riding through it. I'm angry that life has given me this, I alternate between accepting it and being really mad.I feel like I'm constantly waiting for more bad news. I'm waiting for another loss, I just know in my bones that something else is coming, I just don't know what. I don't know what to do to get rid of this awful feeling and its weighing heavy. What if its my job, or my dog, what if its dad?When I get home tonight I'm going to have a spa, do a facial and relax, I can feel myself getting worked up. I've been slack with my meditation, I know that's not helping either.I think the basis of all this is that this week I've got scared. I'm frightened of the future and what it will hold. I've lost a little bit of confidence in myself since mum's funeral. I've got to stop this or I'll go crazy. Thanks for letting me vent here. Its good to know I can say how I feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I feel like I'm constantly waiting for more bad news. I'm waiting for another loss, I just know in my bones that something else is coming, I just don't know what. I don't know what to do to get rid of this awful feeling and its weighing heavy. What if its my job, or my dog, what if its dad? <hr></blockquote>These feelings come to all of us. No one that I have known has ever been without them for very long - including myself. ( I am 46) They are not always correct. Sometimes I feel it in my bones too, but nothing bad ever happens. Let them go. Just do what you said, and let them go.
See you tomorrow.
SS

SH,SS has some excellent advice. I still am waiting for another shoe to drop. Sometimes I think it would just be a relief if it happened (I don't know what it would be -- perhaps contact between OW & H, etc.). Keep venting in here. All of these feelings are natural. Sometimes I too get really angry at what this has done to me. I feel I have lost some innocence and am mad that my Hs actions have made me lose this faith. Faith in wedding vows. A belief in true love and happily ever after (a reality based happily ever after, with problems, etc.). But, that is just one side of the coin. As I said in a prior post, think of all I have gained. Knowledge, insight, understanding, compassion, patience -- all to a new level.Keep posting -- we understand. Regarding the phone bill, I don't know any of the laws in Australia, so don't know if what you have is enough. Double check with an attorney. Then, if what you have is enough, change the address -- you don't need any additional triggers.Hang in there. What do you have planned for the WE?FHO

Seahorse,I just wanted you to know I am keeping up with your situation.......sorry it is so hard right now.Yes the snooping always caused me pain, too, but I didn't stop doing it......I HAD to know. Now, when there is no hope of my marriage being saved, those things I found actually give me a sense of peace about divorcing my H. NOT that I am suggesting that to you. It is just that he was so deceitful, and yes, I believe he also wanted to get caught.Anyway, you are doing very well with Plan A, and the others who gave you advice about moving to Plan B are right on the button, too.Take care friend,Love and light,Jacky

Hi Guys, thanks for your support with this. I think my feeling this way is part of the grieving process and it will just take time. I'm trying to keep my sense of humor. For the weekend: He promised he would help with pruning the garden, and he wants dinner and 'fun'. In my current state of mind and after the phone bill I'm struggling to not cancel with him, but the only real thing that has changed is my confirmation of contact, so I have to make sure I'm 'business as usual' and keep plan Aing. I'll be me.I'm thinking a nice quiet romantic dinner and then safe sex. (Whether I'm back with him or start a new relationship with someone else eventually I have to learn about it, so may as well start now).I'm still trying to decide on the outfit and maybe I can try some of my bellydance moves on him. Nothing too 'out there' don't want to scare the poor lad.I hope he dosen't cancel on me, it does sound fun. I'll keep you updated.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
maybe I can try some of my bellydance moves on him. Nothing too 'out there' don't want to scare the poor lad.<hr></blockquote>Dare we ask for an update?

Well, I'll tell you some of it, but not everything!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] H was a bit foggy today. He arrived very late and we only got some of the gardening done. He's doing this so we can sell the house.This frightens me. I want to move, but in my own time I don't want to be pushed. And what if he's just being nice to me so I sell or because mum died. How do I know he's for real anymore?I asked myself this all the time he was here, all the time he talked about his job [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . I tried to put the phone bill out of my mind (did you know he saw her on the day of the funeral, he told me he had a meeting at 3.30 and had to go, but the phone bill shows it was her he was meeting) [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . I'm going to tell him to change the address so I don't have to see them anymore.Anyway, things progressed very nicely after that, but I had to do all the work (to get us to the bedroom, after that it was smooth sailing!!! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ).Afterwards he was different. He gave me a really nice hug, a bear hug and he gave it to me - I didn't solicit it. I gave him a back rub and made dinner. Then he went. Apparently home to watch the football, but I don't believe it - he's gone to see her. I don't know that for sure, but...If he's less foggy after you are fullfilling ENs does this mean your on the right track? This is really hard work. A lot of input for little return. I must still love him, mustn't I?I've got so much to work out, to think about. So it seemed to turn out OK. Not the passion I'd hoped for but it was nice. I asked him if he'd like it if I danced for him -he goes to a restaurant called Men's gallery a lot, where they have this, but he says that he goes there to talk to friends. Why go then? He said he didn't need me to dance for him because he's a simple guy really. Is he trying to trick me? Does he just want boring sex, because I don't. That's what got us into this mess, boring sex = no sex = A.How does this change if we ever get to recovery? He has said all thru our M that he is the way he is and won't change.

Liz, if you didn't LB on this "date", then you did wonderfully.No one can tell why he's being nice, or what he thinks after your roll in the hay - he's probably just as confused as you are.(the following is best read with a US southern drawl) We have a saying in the south east U.S. that sorta applies to this situation. "He's a turtle on a fence post." We don't know how in the heck he got there, but we dern sure know he had some help. We usually apply this to folks who acquire more than they seem capable of, but I guess it can apply to fog bound alien abductees, as well. The "help" they're getting is the influence of the OP. But just like the ladder climber who doesn't really stack up, the "help" is only temporary - and has done them no favors in the long run - and failure is eventualy bound to happen.I still think you're doing wonderfully. I wouldn't be surprised if his current motive for helping you at the house is for selling considerations. Remember, the WS's top priority is the WS. The BS is WAY down the list. This is a fact of life in affairs. Otherwise, affairs wouldn't happen.Sooner or later - assuming he doesn't wake up - you won't be able to accomplish what you described above during your recent interactions. When you detect this burn-out coming, it's time for Plan B. Try real hard though, to see this coming so your transition to Plan B comes on the heels of a pristine Plan A finish. The transition is the only moment that you should assume that Plan A/B is for the WS. This is when you get to pull the rug out from under them. Afterwards, they're on a very high fence post and to get down, they have to jump.WAT

Hi Seahorse! Just checking in and trying to catch up. It sounds like you are doing better, but still unsure. I can understand. I'm glad you got to spend some time with your h and it does not seem as painful to be around each other as it was for me. At least your H is willing to do something with you like work on the house. This difusses the situation and keeps you near each other but occupied. But as WAT said remember, your H is looking out for himself and fixing up the house brings him closer to selling and getting his share and moving. If you are not ready to leave than stall. you need to be reay to move on and not be pushed out like you said. If you can stay and you want to stay then do so. your home is your safety, your comfort zone. Unless it is too painful or you can not financially handle it I think you should stay. I remember reading not to do anything drastic when this is going on if you can help it. Moving is pretty drastic and you deserve some stability. i know you have your need for SF. Believe me so do I. But I was reading (not that I agree with everything I read) a book entitled When the One You Love Wants To Leave". The author explains that H can be pulled out of a M by an OW- like our H's. They can be pushed out by their own wives behavior or they can be put out by their wives because of their own behavior. Our H's have been pulled out by OW which is the most common reason for H's leaving. It says that often they are not leaving a bad relationship to go and be alone. They are trading one realtionship for another. it is their BS that are left alone which makes our position the most difficult. Our h's can not understand why we are so devestated. They think they are being noble and sparing us any further pain by releasing us to find someone new. They are fine with this because they have found someone new. They think we are unreasonable and too emotional. When in fact they are being completely ruled by their emotions, they just don't realize it. Another thing that was suggested was that there not be any SF. Not that i agree, i am guilty of using sex as a manipulation myself. However their reasoning was that by continuig to have sex, it just continues to make the situation fuzzy. They are being cakeeaters and then the BS tries toread into it. Well if he's willing then he might still want me. But actually, he is being selfish. So they suggest no sex to bring H to realization that he can't have it all. Just a thought. Hang in there. I know you can do it. I'll check back later.
Forgiver

Hi Seahorse,I had to jump in here, regarding the sex issue. My stbx was living with his first (well first I KNEW of) OW, he was coming home on weekends and having sex with me. When I found out, I asked him why he did that. His reply "Because I COULD!"Maake no mistake......there is a huge amount of EGO in the WS's decision to have sex with you AND OW too, especially when we KNOW about OW, and let them have their way anyhow. WOW, he thinks........TWO women want me!!!!! I must be GOOOOOOOOOD!!!I was not proud of myself for fulfilling SF when I knew about OW, in fact I felt disgusted. Add to that the fact that he LIED to me about having protection while having sex with her......and health issues etc. The supremely selfish act.So, when he had second OW, and was leaving me, he asked me for sex that very morning. I said "As long as we are separated, we will never have sex again." He was FLABBERGASTED!! He couldn't understand it and tried to change my mind.The outcome of this for me was that I did relinquish one of my 'weapons' in the fight to get him back, but I retained my self respect. And I also believe that he respected me more for NOT giving him SF......in the end.In this and a lot of other issues, WS's have a hard time realising that 'things have changed' now. This is typical cakeman activity, and it only hurts US in the long run. Okay, not having SF with stbx did not bring him back, but for me, being USED for his ego boosting was not an option any more.Hope I helped.Love and light,Jacky

Hi Guys, read your posts, given me food for thought. OK, what if I want sex with my H? What if I want to try to make it more fun? Its just as much for me as for him.I'm confused again. Plan A is for me, yet I'm demonstrating the changes I've made to him. They are the changes that I've wanted to make for me. So far I haven't done anything that made me feel uncomfortable.Either, I get SF from my H or I get it somewhere else. It seems to me that if I'm still atracted in that way to him there is no problem. We have safe sex, we alway did.There is something that I'm having trouble with and it is withdrawing from my bank. When I was cleaning out stuff last night I found two videos "Asian Prostitutes" and something else Asian. I'm not Asian. I can never become Asian, so maybe no matter what I do, it won't be enough because I am not what my H wants in life anyway. Maybe he's right, maybe the last 11 years were a big mistake. Some of the calls on the phone bill were to Thailand, so I think there may be more than one now, or she's in Thailand. I don't knw, and I'm sick of guessing.I don't intend to move before I'm ready and he will just have to deal with that. I really want my loving H back, that's if he ever existed. I'm questioning everything after reading your posts and last night. What if nothing is real anymore? What if it never was real and we were living a lie? I feel like I'm the turtle on the fence. I don't know how I got here or how to get off without hurting myself. I'm putting a lot of energy in, waving leg and arms around in an attempt to swim forward but how do I get there if there's no foundation around me?This has been a hard fall back into 'reality'.

Hey Seahorse! I really can't say too much except WAIT. That is what Redhat has told me. It is very hard I know. But by being patient and waiting you are doing something. I know you need SF so do I. I was guilty of trying to initiate it with my H and then he responded and initiated it with me. It was horrible and ended awkwardly. Ithink he was trying but he is so foggy he actually stooped in the middle both times. It was not a good last experience. So to fend off and surpress thoses urges I have become incredibly active physically. As you know with kickboxing, boxing, running and exercising. Which I think in some way heightens sexual drive because I feel so good about myself inside and out. But I can not go out and get it somewhere else so I exhaust myself in the meantime. We have to be very careful how we conduct ourselves. Our H may come up with their own lies based on our new found sex drives. We can not give them any amunition. There are many people out there married or not who go without sex for a long time. It is something we have to do. Unfortunately. I'm with you on this one. I know I can no longer have sex with my h and that kills me because it was great. But he's ruined that now. All we can do is wait.
Sorry I don't have more of an upbeat response. I wish I did. It's been a tough couple of days. My MIL says my H is coming back this week to me for a few days. I don't know why.
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver and JAcky, I appreciate your point of view on this, but to be honest I've thought a lot about it and I don't agree. When I initiate with my H, its actually that I want to, its not that I'm trying to manipulate. At least, I had never thought of it as manipulation. I enjoy being with him in this way. I've found a part of myself that I've denied for a long time. Maybe I'm being selfish by doing this?I'm interested to know why it was suggested in the book that its not a good idea to have sex during this time. The sex was a major part of my marriage break up, and my H has said that. I've really thought a lot about my Plan A in the last 24 hours, analysed it. its easy to get caught up in 'doing things' to try to manipulate the WS and I know that I've been guilty of that. I am sure my plan A is OK, I'm hurting, I want my husband back, but I'm being patient, I'm planning my life and trying to discover where I fit in to the grand scheme of things, I'm trying to occupy myself and do the things I like to do. One of these is sex. When we interact there are no LB's and I know there has been some deposits. On the weekend we spent some really nice, non-sexual time together. To me if you say I shouldn't be having sex with him, them maybe I shouldn't be spending time with him either, but I love the guy I want to be with him. Even so, I try to put my mind in the set that he's already gone, which is a struggle, moments of fog clearing give me hope. He's told me that he still has feelings for me. I do not believe he dosen't love me anymore and I do not believe my marriage is over. As far as I am concerned he is my husband and I'm just waiting for him to realise that.I'm confused, and I don't understand. Plan A is for the BS, and it is also to demonstrate changes made. I've let go of him-I don't control anymore, and I'm working on our sex life. If I stop having sex because 'it clouds the issue' how do I show that I'm sincere and how do I continue my plan A if part of my plan A is working on regaining a sex life? Do you see my point? I am interested to hear further points of view about it, because maybe I've got the idea of plan A wrong.[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ][ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Seahorse,You get it right. It is about you to demonstrate changes. If SF is one of the complaint that H has on M & you ... yes, how do you show changes if you don't do it. Enjoy it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Also in plan A, you have to fill in WS's ENs, as much as WS allows you to ... that is toward your advantage.Plan A is not about manipulating your H to get back. None at all ... it is about you. Understand that you can not control neither influence or interfere w/ A. So you do your part to fix this M and let him do his part. He might not do his part by then you might have to go to plan B to protect your feeling.The gray line in here is if you have SF bc you want to "give" him ... you are in the wrong place. After you show your changes ... a few awsome SF from your part ... if there is no effect on your plan A and there is a disrespect of H toward you on this subject, you choice to make, you could draw the line and tell H that you can not disrespect your self ... you have to do this to protect your selfworth, got nothing to do with H. ( [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] fogese reasoning, of course it get to do with him, his behavior however most WS will not count that actionas LB'ed ... the only language they understood, give a far fetch reason and twist the word to reason unlogical behavior) [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Which book that discourage SF are talking about ? DB ?. ... I have a problem actually with DB. IMVHO. It is a very narrow view of plan A !. It works for certain situation, it might be very dangerous for certain situation. I always try to put my opinion to try an actions first and see if it works before going full blast. It works mostly on man and also in very early stages of A. Just my opinion. MB is a gudeline to save M, each individual find their own steps ... as long as follow the guideline find what is work for you. This is why I always try to get people to talk to Steve or Jennifer. We put out our opinion but for advice you seek professional that could assess your situation and guide you. Remember Steve and Jennifer only "coach" you not tell you what to do !. SH many times has the answers but he just led me to find it on my own. What good does it do if I save my M but fails to rebuild M ?. THIS IS MARRIAGE BUILDERS.Hope it helps and hope old timmer such as WAT, Orchid, NSR, etc could comment on this too. -RH-

Hi Redhat, Forgiver and Jacky, I think I see what you're saying, and I guess its true. There is no 'prototype' for plan A, just guidelines. What is OK for me (fulfilling SF) may not be Ok for Forgiver or Jacky or anyone else. I have not felt uncomfortable with it so far (until I read Jacky and Forgiver's posts).I do agree, however that I cannot go on like this forever. I believe I am demonstrating (to myself as well as my H) that I am willing to change, that I am willing to detach and live my life, that I can walk away without regret, and most importantly for me, that I will survive - I'll be sad and hurt, but I'll survive. My challenge continues to be keeping busy enough not to brood-(I'm working on that, I'm going back to doing Telephone Crisis counselling as a volunteer, I did this once before in a particularly bad time during my life and it helped a lot). If all aspects of my plan do not work, then there is nothing left to do but go to plan B. This will be at the time that my intuition tells me to do it. When I no longer feel comfortable plan Aing, when I'm frustrated and feel like LBing again. The time of this is still to be decided as I have some plan A in me yet. I do not have the full comprehension of what went wrong in my marriage and if I was the one who caused it, therefore I cannot walk away just yet - and this truly is for me and I can see how it is so. I wish I could access Harley counselling, but I enquired some time ago and it will cost me a small fortune mainly because of the phone bill and the exchange rate. I do have a counsellor, but most of my support is you guys, books, God and my own busy brain. As far as new hobbies are concerned though I booked another dive. I will soon know what its like to be in a big fish tank. I'm going to dive the Manly Aqurium. They have big sharks, manta rays and loggerhead turtles - which I get to play with... yay!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

I believe one reason to continue SF ( as long as you still feel good about it, pun intended,) is that it lets him make deposits in your Love Bank. And from your posts of last week, you need it. As for all the rest, Forgiver is right. Time. . . .will tell. Take a week to week and month to month view. Don't worry about trying to figure out day to day. It doesn't ever seem to work.
SS

Thanks SS, I think my 'ego' is impatient but my 'heart' is willing to wait. I struggle with this each day. My heart will wait much longer for him, but I know it can not be indefinitely, so does my heart.He did deposit LB$ for me, he does each time we see each other. I'm pretty sure its the same for him, but who knows while he's in this state?I will just continue on as I am, and try to keep a bit busier and do fun things - like swimming with sharks - its less scary than dealing with aliens, let me tell you.

As usual I will post on GQII as I want opinions. The plan A is going well, but I'm thinking that before I move to plan B (which I do still feel is sometime away) that I be suggesting to H that we go to marriage counselling.I'll remind you that he is still unsure whether to commit to the marriage although he said he does have 'feelings' for me still, he is still in contact with OW but denies it and denies that he is 'in love' or that it is an affair. We did attend counselling together before I 'found out'. This was a bad experience as H did not reveal the affair and told the counsellor all he wanted to hear. The counsellor quickly came to the conclusion that it was 'my problem'. Hence my H told me after he moved out that he did not need counselling as he had his mates to help him. I've not brought it up since and I am attending Individual Counselling about once per month, but doing lots of my own homework.As plan A has had a ok results in the last few weeks, do you think I should bring up the subject again? Will it help if he is still in denial about the affair. Should I just continue my plan A and suggest it just before I am ready for plan B? I feel that whether we stay together or split up we should have counselling together. What are other's experiences? Maybe I could test the water with him? Considering my past experience with couple counselling I'm a bit hesitant but I will be 'screening' the counsellor before I attend to make sure that they are for saving my marriage and are willing to probe.Note I do not live in US so can't attend Harley's (although I wish I could).

Be patience and give it some more time ... get busy swimming w/ those sharks [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .About Harley's, yes could do it but I guess the rate will be expensive compare to where you live. There is about 13 hours different ... Steve or Jennifer starts at 6:00AM. -RH-

Yes, you're right, I forgot the BS mantra, "WAIT".Only 11 days till I swim with the Sharks again!

Hi Seahorse, Counseling ? Having a 3rd party (counselor) involved almost always helps. ( But it sounds like you got burnt the first time.) Yes, I believe you should bring it up with H. If he says he doesn't need help, tell him that you do, and you want him to come and help you. ( 2 long got his wife to start that way.) At the least, he may open up, and tell a counselor what problems he had with you in the beginning. It would give you more to run your plan A with. You have already told him you are trying to change and improve, if you bring that up, and say that you believe a counselor can help you improve more quickly, he may go for it. No counselor worth anything will consider that things are all your fault, and will give him homework too. I haven't detected that bad hurt in your posts for a while.
We know you have sad times, but you SEEM to be holding up well. Are you OK? Finally, it sounds like your talks with him have some positive elements. Hope it gets better and better. SS

Hi SS, just taking it day by day. Feeling what I feel and move on. Alternate between indifference and non-indifference. Living my life... 9 days till I swim with sharks again!

No real update. No news from H. Just the usual up and down.Doing my motor bike learner's permit this weekend, and just generally nurturing myself, while I wait...7 days till the sharks!

Liz - tell me if I have this right:swimming with sharks, bellydancing, motor bikesHmmmmmmm.Please don't add sky diving? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] WAT

Why not WAT? I've never wanted to do that until now. It seems that I've taken the attitude that there is nothing more painful now - except maybe falling off a motor bike going 100km/h in shorts. Nothing can hurt me more than I've been hurt, except if h actually leaves or gets this woman pregnant.I hada FANTASTIC time at my bike course - I haven't got my learners yet, he says I need more tuition, which is fine by me because I get to ride the bike again!! I didn't have a stax, but I did drop the bike twice and kept forgetting to turn the fuel on. The instructor did not look impressed.I'm sad today about my situation with H, but I'm trying to let it go. It hurts to know that once you knew that someone loved you, and overnight its gone. I'm very tired too as I'm having trouble getting to sleep at night - maybe that's why I'm struggling today.I've realised that the new hobbies I've taken up are not only fun, but if my H dosen't come back its a great way to meet guys. I wish my H was there with me though. He'd love to be riding a motor bike around, we'd have so much fun together. But its not meant to be.I'm supposed to see him Wednesday night for dinner, but I guess I'll have to wait and see if it goes ahead. Sent him a quick email re this today and told him I miss him. He hasn't replied, he's either busy at work, or dosen't give a ****. Oh well, that's the BS' life in limbo.

Big trust session today. H is collecting car for a business trip and is going into the house alone. I removed specific documents and the cheque books, but its still hard.Guess this is all part of the journey. Been on a backward slide the last few days, but know I will put through and be one the way forward again in no time. 5 days to the sharks...Update re this. H called asked me where the 'dirty' videos were (one of them was Asian girls). I said I had them aside and wanted to speak to him about it. I told him that no matter how much I change, there are somethings I can never be: one of them being an Asian. I said that I was not judging him on the videos or on his preferences, but that he needed to be honest with me about these things. I asked him if there was any point in us going through what we are, if I am not what he wants. He said I was a nice girl and he liked me a lot (what the f--- is this ****? - foggy), but he needed space, he kept deviating off the real question, but I kept brining him back to it. I told him that obviously this was a big fantasy and that he had gone to live it in Thailand with at least one person (OW). I told him that no matter how much I love him or want to work on our marriage that there is no way I will take him back while he is seeing another person. I said there can only be two people in our marriage no matter how much I want him back or love him. I said that I respected his need for space, I respected his choices in life, but he cannot string me along forever. I told him that in the end it is his choice, and I will live with it. He told me that when we had been together he was scared because I was different. I told him that this is me now. I told him I would get the videos back to him and what he did with his life was his business not mine.Did I do ok? Can I have some feedback? I feel sick, this was really hard for me as I felt I was laying it on the line. But either way I was going to talk to him about the videos. I am so tired now. I am really drained. I haven't slept well for ages and I feel like crying. Someone tell me if I'm doing this right.[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

OK Having a big vent - see my post above re this. Am I kidding myself. Is there really hope in this situation? I am on a big backslide right now and I'm feeling down as ever. Sitting at work crying about this.I know part of this is because I'm so tired, but once I get into bed, my mind races. Yesterday I spoke to a friend and she asked how things were going with H. Told her, she said, yes but you know it is over, don't you? She said that there was no way we could get back together that H had done the dirty and that there was no hope that I couldn't go back to it and we couldn't work it out. I felt very donw after this. This person has been through what I've been through, but didn't work on her marriage, she left.But what if I'm the only person who can't see what others can. What if I'm the only one who thinks this marriage is worth saving. What if H dosen't? What then? Then I relieve the grief all over again, then I go through this horrible situation all over again, but for real this time.I mean, he said today, "I'm a nice girl and he likes me" but that's not good enough. I'm a nice girl and he likes me is not I love you I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I am willing to give up the OW for you, is it?One day I was my husband's princess and he loved me,the next day our marriage meant nothing and he likes me - how can this be? Either he was lying before or he is lying now. Which is it?I've got another four months of this and I'm not sure if I can take it. I told him I would give him six months but what if I cannot. I need help to get this into perspective, but right now, I'm so tired, that my mind is barely functioning other than to be pessimistic.I want to hang in there, hang on and get through this, but todays exchange has left me with little hope really. Yet we have dinner tomorrow night, but why string me along if he dosen't love me. This is ****ing tough to get through. I feel like screaming!

Seahorse, this is 'coaster of your life. This is the hardest part of this journey, slow torture like Chinese water torture. We as a BS do our best that's all we can do. You do great on your plan A, your H recognized it. Now you are in a holding pattern until either your H wakes up from the fog or you have to go to plan B. In any case, do not let H disrespect you, set the boundry and push back ... w/ no LB !!!. The same way we try to stop 5 years old kid trying to bargain for a candy. Be strong, be loving yet not giving up. Your H is in and out the fog and usually they bargain on how long and how much to could cling on their fantasy and addiction.Your freind means well but you have to give your best out, not only for H but for your self !. It will be part of your healing process, you could move on w/ peace at heart knowing you have done your part. Only you know when it is time. Some WS call us in the fog ... specially those on TOW.Try skydiving [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... Yesterday, I am stepping out of my comfort zone. We have a huge Carnival here in SF and OM play in one of the stage. I snoop OM, I never have his picture, I need one for my "package" to my 2D. I went out and took several close up pictures of him w/ tele. Then since I am have time to waste ... I am joining the parade !, literally. I have my camera gears and look like an offical photographer ... the security and police let me in and out and in the middle of the parade. (so much talk about security !). I burned rools of film on ... beautiful outfits, colorfull ones and barely clothes ones [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] !. Most of them post for my camera, close-up, ... too bad we don't have place to post pictures but then again this is MB some of them are R-rated. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] . I am afraid of height to try skydiving and too afraid in the confined mask of scuba in the open sea, I have my own fun [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Take care -RH-I found the link to the website. You might see me holding camera in the middle of the street [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] .[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

Seahorse,For what it is worth, I think you did fine. You set your boundaries and in a calm and clear manner laid it all out before him. He can't accuse you of not providing a clear explanation. Now the onis is on him and that is where it should be. Redhat,
U bad boy!!! LOL! 2nd job as a photographer? Hm...... U R way too funny. Take care,
L.

Orchid,I might try PI ... LOL !!!, let me know if you need a gumshoe help around bayarea [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .You better get some sleep, you don't want to mess up some one's payroll ... -RH-

Dear RH and Orchid, thank you for the feedback. I feel very much a newbie at the moment, even though I've been at this for four months. But I am learning and have tucked this experience away in the memory bank. I have analysed it all afternoon (and cried at work too [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) about it. I felt it was a real turning point in plan A, I have shown him I can change, some of the new me, that I am living my life, but now I am getting to the business end of the plan - closer to plan B if required. I'm paving the way for it. I know that very soon there will be nothing left for me to show/prove/change. I'm living my life as much as possible in this 'limbo'. You're right RedHat, it is like Chinese water torture.Those videos made me sad, but at least it has opened up some good dialogue with him. They enabled me to remind him that he cannot live without responsibilities in life. I watched parts of them, and I realised that the SF problem in our marriage is not all my fault. You know, when I spoke with him about it, I said to him about OW, and for the first time he didn't deny it. He didn't acknowledge it either, but he certainly didn't deny anything I suggested. At least now he will be thinking and know that I am onto his scam - moving out for six months for 'space', bull****, its so he can have an affair without me knowing, but he can't fool me, I know the scam.Although I know in my heart it was fog, the comment about 'you're a nice girl and I like you' really hurt the ego. I guess I have to keep reminding myself that actions speak louder than words. It can be hard sometimes.

Liz - I validate your feelings after your interaction with him. If he was sure about what he wants, he wouldn't be saying those things to you.About your "friend": I'll bet she's wanting you to do the same thing she did in her situation for her own reassurance. Of course, you could say the same things about us. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Regardless of what happens, in the end you will be content knowing that you tried and you'll be guilt free.Be thinking about Plan B. By my criteria, you're ready, although my criteria differs a bit from strict MB guidance. Before Plan B you'll need to get all the legal stuff worked out, e.g., finances, car, home responsibilities, etc.Keep up the good work.Dave

<blockquote>quote:<hr>, I have shown him I can change, some of the new me, that I am living my life, but now I am getting to the business end of the plan - closer to plan B if required.<hr></blockquote>Make sure that he understands you have changed to be a better wife for HIM. However we all know the changes will benifit someone else if he won't come back. Also tell him not to be afraid of you, you are a better person, not just a different one. He needs to know that. Make sure you check the balance in your LB$ weekly so you can tell when you need to go to "B".You have been so positive for so long, it is hard, but you are doing it. Hope something good happens Wed. to give you strength. As always, we pray for you. SS

Seahorse,Most of BS had some fault contributing to the A but #1 The fault is not a justification of having A, it never stand. #2 There is nothing to justify betrayal of M, WS should Dv first. Don't second guessing yourself. I do too from time to time.I was forced into plan B so I never have experience of choosing it but WAT and Orchid knew this one better. I have not much to say.Yes, I have more than an eyefull [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] !. The link post only one R-rated nothing compare to what I got. Orchid lives in the same area and know this parade .... I don't blame her calling me a bad boy. Try underwater photography, it is beautifull ... of course not taking photo of those sharp teeth of shark [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , take the colorfull coral reef pictures. Hope you can rent the equipment since it will make you bankrupt if you buy them, too costly. I will try the physical ones ... I will try to train for SF-LA on Skates 2003, 400+ miles roller skating from San Francisco to Los Angles [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] .

Hi everyone, thanks for the support. God knows I need it right now.So we had a nice dinner - he was pretty foggy all the way though, although I seemed to be able to 'get through' to him every now and then.He decided that he wanted his golf clubs and a spare TV for his flat, and his also decided that I would drive him there tonight (it takes about an hour). I told him that I didn't mind, but would appreciate it if he asked me first next time. I sensed this LB'd him, but fair enough guys, its not a ten minute drive.Anyway, I guess I should be happy, becuase before tonight i did not know where he lived, and tonight I went into the apartment. So it could be he is starting to trust me, or it could be that he just needed help moving stuff. Either way, whatever.When he took me in his room to dump the stuff, there was a weird doona cover on the bed, he quickly said it was his flatmates it wasn't his. I said, H it dosen't matter who it belongs to its none of my business, he continued to defend, I said that's fine, but if you have other women here, which I'm sure you do, its none of my business.He said, what do you think I have lots of women over. I said that I know you've slept with at least one other.So he made me a cuppa, and we watch TV for a while. I rubbed his head as he said he had a headache, he seemed to like it. I said that again, what he does while he is here is none of my business, that i am willing to let him go in the hope that he comes back. I told him that even though he had told me to see other men that I hadn't that there was only him and there would only be him while we were married and that I hoped he would come back to me to work on our marriage soon. He looked like he was tearing up and quickly jumped up and went to the kitchen.After that he said he was really tired, etc, and not feeling well. I said that it was time to go anyway. He gave me a big hug.He left a bag out here, (which naturally I went through but found nothing), so he said he'd meet me at work tomorrow to pick it up. I said I'd buy him lunch.Anyway I left and he was less foggy. I'm nearly at plan B people. I cried all the way home. Its hard to drive and sob at the same time. It is so hard to know that he is seeing other people, to know that he wants me out of the flat before his flat mates get home so they don't know he seeing me (obviously he's told them we've broken up). I am drying up, I need to think seriously about plan B now, because tonight I'm sure I lost 2 more kilos and I don't think my body can take any more.This will be the single most frightening thing i ever do in my life, and I'm so scared. Why did God choose this for me? Of anyone in my life he could of taken away, why did it have to be him? When I stood in that church and took my vows I never ever thought I would be here. 6 months ago i would have thought I would be here. I've read a couple of posts about plan B and it frightens me because they say its harder than plan A and this is really hurting. He said he try to come and watch me in the shark tank on Saturday, so I've got a couple of meetings to savour before I say goodbye.I don't want to be here. I hate this whole situation and I'm so distraught I'm sobbing again. I wish I could have walked away at the begining.

Seahorse,Plan B is for you. For you to protect you feeling and to be stronger. Some says it is hard but many of them say it is hard in the beginning and then it is easier than plan A since you have less contact and less roller coaster.You are awsome ... you still plan A'ng your H 'till the end. He will remember that night and will remember what you say. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, you have to send H into plan B with a nice memorable moment.You have done your best be strong what ever happen it is only make you stronger. This journey opens our eyes to see and be educated about how to care & protect our next relationship ... we still hope it is our SO and we should still pray about it but THY WILL BE DONE. Just know that our Lord never forsake us and will bless us with fullfiling M ... w/ or w/o SO. AMEN.God Bless you -RH-

<blockquote>quote:<hr> This will be the single most frightening thing i ever do in my life, and I'm so scared. Why did God choose this for me? <hr></blockquote>Our problems either break us down or make us stronger. Few of us ever know why until much later in our lives. I believe you will come out of this stronger. But saying that doesn't make it easy to handle it. You just have to get through each hour and day on its own. Think back on what you have been through, and what you have learned, what you have become. You ARE better already. You cannot deny that. You will make it - always. SS

I'm in full on grief mode and have been all night. I will see him today to take the bag to him. I know this is all part of the process. I read a book that said the reason you keep going through the stages of grief is because its too enormous to do all at once. The bigger the loss, the longer it will take, and the more times you will go through the steps.I feel like I have truly lost him. I know that he seems to show affection, but I can't see how it will translate to him coming back to me. I don't want to go into plan B preparing for divorce. I want my marriage, I don't want to send the message to him that I'm preparing for divorce. How do I plan B and do that? I've got to work out something that I am comfortable with, something I can live with and still makes him end the marriage if he wants to. If I take steps that lead to the end of my marriage I will never forgive myself. I cannot do it.I need to think this through. I am in no rush. Its not somethings I really want to do, but I do know its something I have to do.I'm sorry I am so morbid on this forum of late. I'm not always like this, but the people that helped me after I found out are angry with my H now. My dad dosen't understand, he dosen't like him anymore and wants me to move on. I have tried to explain to him, but everytime I talk about H he gets angry and changes the subject. There are not many people around who think he's worth it.So I come here to get it all out, and usually feel better.I will take it easy today, I'm still looking forward to my swim with sharks on Saturday - it will take my mind off this for a day. I have tried u/water photograhy with the disposables RedHat, but find that the light usually isn't strong enough and the photos turn out with a blue hue. When I did my open water certification they had cameras you could hire, they were really good, but becuse I had to do skills they wouldn't let me hire one.I'm hoping that the aquarium will let me take the disposable into the tank on Saturday, but I'm not sure. I know I get one digital photo as part of the cost, so will try to post it somewhere for all to see.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
I don't want to go into plan B preparing for divorce. I want my marriage, I don't want to send the message to him that I'm preparing for divorce. How do I plan B and do that? <hr></blockquote>Liz - IMHO, Plan B has nothing to do with divorce and everything to do with trying to save your marriage. It's what you do to KEEP from going straight to divorce when you feel there's no chance!!! IT'S AN ALTERNATIVE TO AN IMMEDIATE DIVORCE!! And it fits with your rational desire to not make the divorce decision yourself.Understand?Re-read the SAA section on Plan B. Read the stuff in the Notable Posts. OK?I shared the same desire to not be the one making the divorce decisions and Plan B helped for me. Today, I'm guilt free about the destruction of my marriage. Hopefully, you'll get to recovery and this won't be an issue. But it may take Plan B to get there as well.

(((((Seahorse))))))) Sorry I have not been around but I have been living in my own nightmare. My H is so cold and detatched he actually recoils if we accidentially brush against each other. Did I tell you the last time i was home I accidentially got gasoline in my eyes and my H just said "Go wash your eyes out, I finish putting the gas in!" I could not see!! I was in so much pain I had to find my way to the house and then the sink. He never came in to help (I thought I was going to have to go to the hospital) He never asked how I was. It sickens me, he could treat me this way. But that's enough about my crap. Your H seems to be softening but he is being a cake-eater you know. Plan B while you still have the love. Or let your love run out (I think tha'st what I did). I am not having sucha hard time with plan B because it is like my H is back in school and I can go on with my life. We were apart for 120 days throughout this A. He came home. We were together 11 days. Not even 11 days straight. The first block of 7 days. then 2 days and he left, then last tuesday and Wednesday and he left. In those 11 days I saw such a cold person with so many unaddressed problems I lost my hope. I lost my love. I now realize how much I can take and how long I am willing to wait. Go to plan B when you feel it. i think I felt it too late. But it looks like you need to do it soon. About the diving. That's AWESOME!! Underwater photography happened to be my H's main hobby. The reason the disposable camera and any UW pictires are all blue is because of a lack of a strobe. Underwater there are tons of particles in the water. When a flash goes off it reflects off the particles so you see blue pictures with flecks of stuuf throughout and maybe a dark shape in the background. UW photos require lighting which you attatch to the front of your camers. There are also macro lenses that alow youto take pictures of small flora and fauna with great detail. It is very interseting and very fun. Unfortunately my H took all of out photography equipment. But I will buy my own. You should too. It is expensive but well worth it. The walls of out house are adorned with several of our photographs. It is a great hobby. I highly recommend it. We had Sea&Sea equipment. Check them out.
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver, WAT, Redhat, SS, and all, Forgiver, I read your post on your thread, please don't go!I am having fun with my diving and went into the shark tank at Manly Aquarium yesterday. The sharks are BIG - like over 2mtrs big!!! They have sting rays, giant turtles and jewfish. It was fantastic. Very cold, but absolutely fantastic. I have decided to book a holiday to Vanuatu in September where I will do my advanced cert. I would like to buy a camera and will check out second hand equipment. Can you buy the lights separately Forgiver?H came along, he took some photos from the tunnel. He stayed around and we had lunch near his house.He was very open and we had really good discussions. He told me he had tried cocaine, which worried me, but its his life, who am I to judge? I don't like it, I worry about him doing that, but he opened up to me. He said he tried it once. He's lucky he is not dead. I told him if I found out he was using it regularly or dealing it, I would tell the police.We discussed issues about sex (the frequency is not good, but he says the quality is good [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I told him he would have to be willing to try new things, but i wouldn't ask him to do anything he wasn't comfortable with - he was open to this.We discussed my independence - he is pleased that I am living my own life - he says I was too clingy. He's right.We discussed me listening to him, he says I'm better at it. I think I am, but I've still got some way to go.He said he was jealous when he saw me with the diving guys (they bought me lunch - part of the cost of the dive). I thought that was a good sign.We watched the soccer for a while, but eventually he said he wanted to leave. I asked him why, if he was seeing her (I know, I know). I said he would have to choose. I told him I love him and want to be with him, but will not tolerate any other woman. He wasn't impressed. He said he hasn't been in contact 'for some while'. hmmmmHe rang me when I got home. I said I was glad as I felt bad about what I had said. I explained that I was scared to trust him. He said he understood. We finished on a good note.I will keep going with plan A for a while longer. I will know when it is time to plan B. I am scared of it, but I know it may be necessary. Do I need proof of the affair to go to plan B?

BTW, I forgot to add - I mentioned something to WH re if we decide to work on our m. He said "I thought we were already?" Weird huh?I will keep plan Aing, monitor, plan for B, get myself ready. I still hope I don't have to B...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
Do I need proof of the affair to go to plan B?<hr></blockquote>Absolutely not - if you mean proof that it occured. If you mean proof that it's continuing, no again - but your Plan B letter needs to differentiate exactly what you want.As a point of detail, you go to Plan B when your spouse has not committed to work on the marriage, you're having difficulty holding back on the LBs (your love bank is low), and you're physically separated. Note that this does NOT include anything about whether the affair is still in progress. As it turns out, most of the time, not being committed to the marriage and the continuation of an affair are concurrent. The point being that, as maybe in your case, your H has stopped contact, but is betwixt and between, and for all practical purposes, an "affair" is still preventing your recovery. Does this make sense?Dave

Hi Dave, I think maybe I have the wrong idea of plan B, I understood it was to end the affair, as well as prevent BS falling out of love, I leant my copy of SAA to someone in a similar situation I will get it back soon - I'm in no hurry to B, as I don't feel it necessary at this stage. So far, H seems to be 85% 'normal', and he does seem committed to working at the marriage. There is another aspect to this, which is me. I am quite happy to be separated physically from him for the moment. I miss him very much and I love him, but I am enjoying not having to do 'wifely' duties (such as ironing shirts, picking him up from the station, etc, while I recover from all the crises and while I work out who I am. I have thought about this a lot over the last few days - being physically separated suits me for now, although I don't want this to be permanent. I am feeling happier that he seems to be fairly 'normal' again and that he is willing to work at it - we were having problems before the A, so I wonder if a short separation was not on the cards whether he had the A or not.I do miss important aspects of our relationship such as being close, having someone to talk to at night and just the general warm/fuzzy things, and I'm pretty sure he does too. These are what I want to get back slowly, and that were missing before the A and lead to the A(?)The only thing that really concerns me right now is that he still may be seeing her.I don't want to rush anything right now. I know I'm about to make another big change in my life and I need to think it through.Another thing I need to bring up to him is counselling - we're going to need it, maybe this will prove how committed he is to recovery?

Liz - I agree that Plan B is not necessarily the thing for you to do right now given the possibility that the fog is clearing.But, I'd like to offer a subtle, but important, distinction to something you said. The purpose of Plan B is not to bring an end to the affair. The purpose of Plan B is to isolate yourself from further hurt and loss of love for your spouse AND to prevent you from accidently causing further delays in the end of the affair as you ALLOW it to end. Get it?The point is that a BS cannot cause the end of the affair. All you can do is make it worse by trying to interfere with it. After your love bank is drained and you can't hold back those LB's, all you're doing by continuing interaction with your WS is running risks that you're gonna make things worse for yourself. The Plan B isolation removes you from that. At the same time, the WS has to have all needs met by the OP or elsewhere and reality finally sets in when he/she discovers that the once "wonderful" person isn't quite so.Dave

Thank you WAT, I think I was confused actually. I thought you went to B to 'end it', but I see now what you're saying. I can hold back LB's for the moment (and want to learn to control this for me- I want to take back the power as you put it in an earlier post) and H seems to be clearing -fogwise, as I keep saying "I'll monitor it", and seek further advice if required. I truly hope I don't need it, but I don't know what's in store and even though H is more positive I try not to get too excited 'just in case'.In the meantime I'm working, working, working on me. I thought a lot about 'why?' and know its really a futile question, but the best explanation I can find for these crises (until I get the real deal from God) is that its so you seek help from God, it brings you back to God, he prompts you to seek your purpose in life and to look to him and ask him for guidance. But we all have a choice. Most of us here has chosen the 'road less travelled' and meet the challenge, others are not ready. Right or wrong, crises will keep coming until you choose to look at yourself or until God's finished with ya.I've done a hell of a lot of soul-searching and I realise its not all bad - this has been very good for my self esteem and general attitude towards life. I hope I will be a better person for all this - actually I know I'm getting there.Anyway, enough philosophy I'll drive everyone nuts with that soon. SH - PS I'm thinking I might try a Henna tattoo of a seahorse as I'm not quite sure about a permanent one yet. Keep ya posted!

Seahorse:I don't know you, but I wnat to say that you have tenacity, determination and slef reflection!I hope and pray your husband sees what he has in you before he throws it away!I don't know that I could be as nice as you while he continued to see the OW.

Hi Freshie, thanks for your support and comments. Its been a difficult road, let me tell you, but I had to decide whether I wanted him as my H or not. I chose yes, so I have to treat him with respect and love him. Believe me it took a lot of soul searching. I done a lot of looking at myself and my role in the marriage. MB has really helped me a lot. I'm my mothers daughter and now she's dead someone has to carry on her legacy (she was very determined and strong).I will look up your story later Freshie, I am at work right now and better get to it!

Hey Seahorse! Just checking in with you! Sounds like you are doing very well. I am so happy for your progress!
I am very happy and moving forward with my life. Things are going quite well. By the way you can purchase the camera parts separately. It is less expensive and you gradually get what you want without breaking the bank! Treat yourself as you meet new milestones! Where are you going on your next vacation? Is that some where in the South Pacific? Fiji? Keep me posted sounds like fun.
I am looking into traveling myself.
Talk to you soon. I'm always praying for ya!
Forgiver

Hiya Forgiver, I am planning to go to Vanuatu - an Island called Santo. I will do my advanced cert and dive the President Coolidge which I hear is a bit of a 'Mecca' for divers. I'll look into those camera parts. Boy this plan A stuff can get expensive, I've got to buy camera gear, a bike helmet, fins...

Keeping up with you Liz,Wow, you are doing the BEST PLAN A I have ever seen!!!!!! Even though it is expensive, lol!Improving yourself to the point of swimming with SHARKS, so he can see you enjoying yourself is great.......BUT also it is great for YOU whatever happens.I am impressed he turned up to watch, and also his comment about trying. GOOD WORK!!!!!! You have definetly got that man thinking!!!Good on yer luv!!!!!!!Love and light,Jacky

Well Liz, you seem to have gotten a boost from your last few contacts with H. I come back from vacation and you are very positive about things again. I am glad for you. I liked his comment about working on your marriage. Remember that he doesn't know what you know. I suspect that to him, just spending time with you again means that he is working on it. Even if he has been exposed to some of the material, it's not the same as you. You have put heart and soul into saving your marriage and you have come a long way. He still has a long way to go if he wants to catch you. I am glad you are still waiting for him. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I thought a lot about 'why?' and know its really a futile question, but the best explanation I can find for these crises (until I get the real deal from God) is that its so you seek help from God, it brings you back to God, he prompts you to seek your purpose in life and to look to him and ask him for guidance. But we all have a choice. Most of us here has chosen the 'road less travelled' and meet the challenge, others are not ready. Right or wrong, crises will keep coming until you choose to look at yourself or until God's finished with ya. <hr></blockquote>The scriptures talk about our life as the "refiners fire." We are purified and improved much as gold or silver in the fire. All the impurities are burned out and we come out better for it. God doesn't cause it, but he does let it happen, and so we are improved. Some say we should be happy for the fire, but that is a little hard to wish for. However, you can be happy that you are coming out of the fire improved and purified, and not melted and destroyed and ruined. It shows what you are worth. You are sometimes to the point where you can think about your experiences and examine them, and not just react to them. That is a good thing. To me, it means you are getting positive learning experiences out of this mess. I say again - as have many others - Good for you. The bad days will still come ( sorry to remind you yet again - ) but just do as you have learned to do, and make it work anyway. Keep working on Husband, the fire will work it's magic on him too, and he will either melt or become purified along with you. Hope he doesn't melt. SS

Hi NT and SS, Jacky I haven't heard from you fom ages, it must be bloody cold down there, because its bloody cold up here! Notice your H is still his usual self, poor fella, its gonna hit him like a train one day, but that's not you're problem now, its OW.SS you alway have great words of encouragement and insight and I very much appreciate your posts, everyone's posts, this place is like going to the coffee shop and meeting your friends. Its like coming home in a way.I've no update on H, he's been away on business and is coming back tommorrow. He's supposed to be coming Sunday night for a 'sleep-over' (we have a public holiday on monday), but as usual, I never get my hopes too high, just in case...Going for some tea...back nowI often wonder how it will feel if I have to one day say goodbye to H, its not as scary as before, but it does make me sad. I keep praying that he will find peace. I'm tempted to pray to God to bring him back, but there's no point unless that's God's plan and H's choice.SS I thought that was an interesting comment actually about H thinking just being together is working on our marriage, and probably you're right. I think I have to introduce him slowly to the concept that its going to take a bit of time and effort. I don't want to rush him and have no intention to, I can't rush anything for my own sake anyway, but I would like to give him something to read. Maybe HNHN or the Five love languages would be a good start, or even just some short printout from this website, you know just to see what his thoughts are. As I said I won't rush it, I'm having fun just being with him and I think him me, time will tell really. Until such time, I keep going and plan Aing and be just happy being. I even though some days are a real struggle and painful, there are starting to be more and more happy times and less sad. My happiness no longer depends on my H, but he can make me happy.

Not feeling so great now, H just rang, he's not staying the night, he said he's been thinking about it and he's just not ready. I think its bull**** and he's meeting her. Maybe I am ready for plan b, I told him not to come out if he dosen't want to but he says he wants to see me. I feel he just got a better offer for tonight, and as usual we'll just dump the piece of trash waiting at home and pick it up later.You know what, I'm really tired of being no 2. I'm going to press him about what's he's doing, and if I don't get the right answer then this time in two weeks I'll be in plan B.I feel so good about myself right now and he just brought me down and I'm tired of it. I see what you mean now. I have to do this before I start LBing, because I can see that's what will happen. ****, I didn't want to do this, but now I don't think I have a choice. I'll update you after he leaves. Maybe you can give me some advice?

So he's gone now, gone to her I suppose. I asked him if he was still seeing her, I asked him not to lie. I said that I've let him go, so why lie about it anymore, he said he's still in contact. I told him I love him so much and that I want to be with him, but I cannot wait too much longer and that I'm prepared to walk away if I have to. He said he liked me but he was still ****ed up and the Ow was a 'nice girl', wow that's what he said about me a few weeks ago, so we're even, aren't I lucky, I've crawled up to even.Anyway the conversation basically followed this for a while and in the end he gave me a big hug, it was still nice, but its not enough. I love this person so much, but he's not committing really, he's just stalling. Yes, its as much as he can commit, but I think I need more now.It really hurts, I'll be OK, I'm just sad for now, and disappointed. Do I keep plan aing or go to plan B. I know if I B I'll never see him again...[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ][ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

(((((((((((seahorse)))))))))))Plan B is for self-protection, and if the hurting is getting too bad, then it is time. For me, the crunch came when I knew he was still seeing her after five months separation. (I had no admission, but irrefutable proof when his cell phone accidentally went on in his car, and he was with her....it was taped on the answering machine [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . So I wrote the Plan B letter, telling him the Plan B standards.Well, for me it didn't make any difference in his behaviour for a long time; he did get down off the fence, but on HER side of it. But by then, I was able to cope with it. You see, I had distanced myself by using Plan B, and it may have hurt, I won't deny it, but it didn't hurt a LOT. I was and still am getting over him.When you enter Plan B, it can be a wake up call for the H to make his decision as to what side of the fence he wants to jump to. You have to be prepared for the possibility that it won't be your side. But time and again on these boards I have seen great results from a strong Plan B, in that it sends the WS's into a panic. It did that for my stbx too, he started calling at odd times, and still does, thinking I will answer the phone. But I don't fall for that now. They just can't come to grips with NO CONTACT, unless finished with the OP.I have told you before Seahorse, that you will KNOW, without a single doubt, when you are ready for Plan B. Trust yourself, and you will be making the right decision.Love and light,Jacky

Hi Jacky and thanks, yep, deep down I know its time. I'm really scared to do it, but I'm scared not to as well. I know if it keeps going like this I will put more and more pressure on him to decide. This way I am removing all presure from my end, it will be his own pressure. I know he cares about me, but to be honest, if he really wanted to be with me, it wouldn't be so hard to decide. Sure, its fog, but what if the fog is him now? I'm pretty sure the friend's he's living with are influencing him too.I don't think there is much more I can do actually. He sees the changes, he knows I love him and want to be with him. He says that he's trying to make a decision for the next 50 years. I'm trying to decide what to do for today. I'll post a plan B letter soon and my idea of how the plan will work. I'll get some feedback from all of you if I can. For now, I'm just going to get thru today and will take life as it comes.It just hurts so much. I've been crying all day. I haven't been like this for ages. I so badly want him to tell me he'll try. I can't believe its come to this. I can't do anything I'm just a mess. I can't stop cryingSH[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Please read my plan B letter and give me some feedback.Dear H,You know I love you and adore you with my heart, my mind and my body. When we married I thought it would be forever and have never considered that we would be apart one day. The thought that we may not grow old together truly pains me. We have had great times and we had bad times, but we had each other and for 10 wonderful years it was enough.I know we had problems. You have told me that I tried to control you, that I rejected your love by rejecting sex with you. You did not like that I was not independent and had ceased listening to you. I cannot change the past H, but I have learnt from my mistakes and I sincerely apologize to you. You know I have changed, you said you have noticed the changes in me. I am making them permanent and improving myself and my life. I am a better person. I make mistakes every day, but everyday I strive to be the best person I can be.I have thought a lot about our marriage, our current situation and about where we are going. You know my thoughts and feelings. I love you, I want to be with you and work on making our marriage the best ever. I cannot guarantee it will last 50 years or 5 years, but I know that when we try together we do good. I am ready H, not to live together but to work wholeheartedly on our marriage. I commit to you and our marriage. We need help, we need counselling but it takes two of us, I cannot do it alone.You have told me you need more time and that you are very confused. I feel so much for you as I know this is very difficult. You are at a crossroads in your life and feel that today’s decision will affect the rest of your life. Some decision are tough and are scary, but noone said life would be breezy, its supposed to be hard and painful. Then the easy times are even more delightful. I respect that you have taken time to think about your life.However, you have chosen to spend time with one specific woman and possibly other. You have told me you are still in contact with her and like her. I do not condone it, or like it, but have no choice. You are the only person who can make choices for you and I will respect your decision. I hope that you will be happy in whatever you chose and that you find peace. You are my friend, my lover and my husband. I only want true happiness for you and do not wish any harm or ill to you.To preserve the love I have for you and my own sanity I have come to a decision of my own. I need to stop seeing you until you decide one way or the other. The current situation is becoming extremely stressful and hurtful for me. This is not an ultimatum or a threat, it is simply ‘no contact’. I know that I risk loosing you forever, but I cannot continue to see you without putting pressure on you to make a decision. If you choose to come back and work on our marriage, I want to know that you have done it because you love me, not because you have felt pressured into doing it. Please respect my decision and do not contact me unless it is an emergency. If you need to access the house or spend time with the dog, please contact me and I will arrange to have the house available to you at a time I am not there and will leave the alarm off. )I have changed the alarm code, so please do not access the house and set off the alarm). I will continue to work towards moving from this house and will contact you should any particular emergency arise. All financial information will now be handled by my lawyer who will be in contact to arrange a financial separation. This can easily be reversed if you decide you can commit to me. Otherwise I think this will be for the best. I do not wish to work out financial arrangements with you directly as I feel that it will be too hurtful and stressful for both of us.I hope with all my heart and soul that you will come back to me one day. Please make Om or Angie or any other woman aware that I am your wife and that I want to work on our marriage. Please be honest with yourself, with me and them. I love you H, you will always be very special to me. I look back through our life and I chose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I hope we will be together again one day.Your wife SeahorseJust a quick add on. I rang him about an hour ago and asked him if we would go to counselling. He said he would think about it. I asked for an answer in the next couple of days. I will need an answer on Wednesday. If its yes - no plan B, if its no....[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Liz - I replied to your post on GQII.Let's "talk" some more about if/when to go to Plan B. Ideally, you should do it after a period of pristine Plan A.Dave

Oh, Liz, I had not read this (your last few posts) when I responded to your plan B letter on GQII. I wish I had read this first. I will leave that alone and just post some more here. First, you were afraid that he was going to meet her instead of coming to see you. Unless he has confirmed that, you don't know it. Don't always think the worst. For some reason, we have times when we do that. If you have time to read this post, it may help you understand differences in where you are, and where H is. It is long but I think it has some very good lessons.
Fears, Training spouse to meet needs H has a long way to go before he will under stand you. It may take years, even if he wants to reconcile and if he says " here I am, I want to do whatever it takes. " Also, H is afraid. You have grown so much that you may have forgotten that he had issues with you also. Were they valid? ( I am not saying he was or is justified in what he did, he is not, will never by.) He still has all this in his mind, to him, your changes are not real yet. He still knows the old you. When he said he was not ready, he may very well have been telling the truth. Now, he may have been making excuses, but like I said, unless you know that, don't always assume the worst. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Maybe I am ready for plan b, I told him not to come out if he doesn't want to but he says he wants to see me. I feel he just got a better offer for tonight, and as usual we'll just dump the piece of trash waiting at home and pick it up later. <hr></blockquote>He wouldn't come if he thought you were a piece of trash. We all know what you are, and you do too, you are a great lady. If there was ever a caterpillar transformed into a butterfly, it is you. Please don't say these negative things about yourself. They are simply not true. If you have read the above referenced thread, you will under stand this request.
Between now and when you feel you need to start plan B - tell him what you need. Now think about this, there are things he can and will give. ( hugs for one) Tell him what you need that you think he will do. Let him start giving to you. " Hon, I realize you aren't ready to come back yet, but I need some help. I feel things are slipping away, please do some things to bring me part way back. Take me out on a date or , give me a hug, now give me another one, or kiss me tenderly, or passionately." You know what will work. Ask him. I bet he will help. He needs training, you need help, ask him for it, and tell him how to do it. See if he responds. Give him a chance to make some deposits in your LB$. Now, don't get too excited if he responds, or too sad if he is slow. You know what fog is. When you are ready, go to B, but try some things first. He is already broken, you aren't going to hurt him any more than he already is by trying something new, or by plan B for that matter. At one point, you said you didn't really know about God. Try this, get on your knees, close your eyes, say " Oh, God, are you really there, I need help. You should have strong feelings of love come to you. Tell him what you think about all of this, ask him to help you. I have done this so many times, and received the feelings of love so strong , and gotten so much help, that I cannot doubt. It can be a great source of strength to you. I hope you get the help you need. I feel you will. Don't feel bad about crying. I do it to and I am an old mean guy. It is a good way to release our feelings. Why do you think we are able to do it? It is therapy. Well, I sometimes go on and on, hope this helps. By now you have been back at work, and the weekend is behind, you don't have as much time to think or feel sorry. Don't regret your feelings. Just do as well as you can and go forward. See ya,
SS[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ][ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hello All, thanks for replying. I am very stressed and yes, SS I have been depressed for a few days now. I am dealing with a tricky situation at work. I am standing up for myself. Its all part of plan A in a way, its all part of a new me. I have been very angry, they are pushing me to take on work that I cannot cope with. I am normally highly productive and do more than my fair share, but then if I hadn't lost a husband and a mother maybe I could cope, but I am emotionally exhausted and they have to understand that I cannot cope with my normal workload right now.The staff counsellor is involved, she is supporting me and suggested that I am angry because there is a new Liz in town (assertive), but at work she is operating in old Liz mode (non-assertive), thus the anger. I have identified that if I don't express my anger properly I get depressed. H's non-commital was a disappointment and added fuel to the depression. I think that I interpreted what he was saying in a previous conversation incorrectly. To him, being together is working on our marriage (as you suggested SS). He cannot commit further than that. I expected too much and got my hopes too high. I have asked him about counselling, he said he would think about it. I have asked for an answer in the next couple of days. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Also, H is afraid. You have grown so much that you may have forgotten that he had issues with you also. Were they valid? ( I am not saying he was or is justified in what he did, he is not, will never by.) He still has all this in his mind, to him, your changes are not real yet. He still knows the old you. When he said he was not ready, he may very well have been telling the truth. <hr></blockquote>Yes, too me its all different now, I had forgotten that to him I have to prove myself. His issues are valid, although I can see that he too played a role in it, but yes, I can see that I was not meeting his needs and lovebusting. I feel very badly and remorseful about it. I want to show him I have changed, I want the changes to be permanent. I don't want him to move home or have a full on relationship, but I need something to keep going. <blockquote>quote:<hr> If you have read the above referenced thread, you will under stand this request.
Between now and when you feel you need to start plan B - tell him what you need. Now think about this, there are things he can and will give. ( hugs for one) Tell him what you need that you think he will do. Let him start giving to you.
<hr></blockquote>I will read the thread at home (I'm at work) I have asked for him to attend counselling. I need him to at least try. He does do things for me. He helped in the garden, he comes out to see me (it takes about an hour to get here). He does fulfill most of my needs, mostly he always did. I feel angry when he disappoints me, I hate that I wonder if he's going to see her. I hate thinking about it and try to wipe it from my mind. <blockquote>quote:<hr> " Hon, I realize you aren't ready to come back yet, but I need some help. I feel things are slipping away, please do some things to bring me part way back. Take me out on a date or , give me a hug, now give me another one, or kiss me tenderly, or passionately." You know what will work. Ask him. I bet he will help. <hr></blockquote>Yes, I will do that, I will do anything not to go to plan B or walk away. I do believe that he loves me. Its just this stupid fog stopping him. He's really really scared. But as I have been elevated to a 'nice person', she has also been demoted to the same. We're even, part of me says I should be celebrating, but the other part is so sad its come to this. <blockquote>quote:<hr> At one point, you said you didn't really know about God. Try this, get on your knees, close your eyes, say " Oh, God, are you really there, I need help. You should have strong feelings of love come to you. Tell him what you think about all of this, ask him to help you. I have done this so many times, and received the feelings of love so strong , and gotten so much help, that I cannot doubt. It can be a great source of strength to you. I hope you get the help you need. I feel you will. <hr></blockquote>SS, before all this happened I had all but given up on God. I was raised a Catholic and mum's funeral was the first time I'd stepped into the church for some years. I do believe in God, but I don't consider myself to be a Catholic or want to return to being one.I have called out to God so many times in the last few months, everytime I write in my diary I write a prayer now. I thank God for the advances that happen, even small ones. I beg God for guidance and to lift the pain. It works. I wonder if God has sent this challenge so that I return to him. It was not until mum's death that I really seriously considered this. Someone's profile says 'God will not give me more than I can handle' I think God has given me more than I can handle so that I turn to him. Its the only way I can explain this without being bitter.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Don't feel bad about crying. I do it to and I am an old mean guy. It is a good way to release our feelings. Why do you think we are able to do it? It is therapy. Well, I sometimes go on and on, hope this helps. By now you have been back at work, and the weekend is behind, you don't have as much time to think or feel sorry. Don't regret your feelings. Just do as well as you can and go forward. <hr></blockquote>Yes, I cried a lot this weekend. I know it either comes out or kills me. H always said I thought too much, my overactive mind can get the better of me, if I don't keep it in check.I don't care if you are young, old, black, white or green, I can't get through this alone.I cannot afford to do the telephone counselling with Harley's as the exchange rate makes its so expensive. So I got up at 4am this morning and rang the radio station and spoke to Bill Harley about this. There were a couple of suggestions: Plan B should start when you feel that plan A is at its best - it was a week ago, but its not right now.
Plan B should start when plan A is affecting your health-nearly there, he said the weight loss and not sleeping properly were good indications.
Most women stay in plan A for about 3 weeks - I've lasted 4.5months.With all this in mind. I am still at plan B point. I know I cannot keep going, but I know I want to make sure I have absolutely exhausted every possibility, I need to know I've tried everything.I did rewrite the plan B letter, but will save it for another post. I am waiting for H's answer re counselling. I am doing better today, although I am finding it hard to concentrate at work. I have bellydancing tonight, it always lifts my spirits.Just a couple other things now I'm at home. He sent an email this morning in reply to something I sent. I put on it 'love seahorse', his came back with 'love H'. Am I reading to much into this? I've not heard or seen the word 'love' from him for four and a half months. Do I take it as a slip of the fingers on the keyboard, do I take it as stalling or just take it and not even try to figure it out?I contacted an organisation called Retrouvaille today. They run workshops and weekends to recover marriages. I told the lady who contacted me my situation, she told me she was in such a situation with her husband many years ago. She has been married 40 years and this happened when they were married 21 years. She said that they tried counselling, but basically nothing worked until she ceased contact with him. It took six months for the affair to die and they eventually got back together. She told me to try counselling, it may be enough, but in her situation, it didn't work. The only thing that worked was 'no contact'. She basically did the MB thing, but there was no MB then. She did a plan A then a plan B. She said she would send me info and I could contact her if needed. I feel very alone, because basically most of my support network feels I should 'get rid of him anyway'. I have two friends who seem to support me. I am so confused in my mind. Its fear, I don't want to do it, but I know it will come eventually, its just when. I know that after the discussions we had on the weekend re the relationship it would not be the optimum time to plan B. Its his birthday on Sunday I was going to get him a nice present and hopefully spend the day with him and maybe do it one day next week. If this plan dosen't work, then it may have to be delayed. Oh dear, I'm in a real mess. I feel like I brought this whole thing on, because I was too stubborn. [ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ][ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Liz - please stop beating yourself up. You're just like the rest of us - a flawed and imperfect person. We all contributed to our situations, but you have looked in the mirror and identified areas for improvement and you've impressed us all.You are a better Liz.Please stand tall and proud.Dave

Hi Liz,
Dave is right, don't beat yourself up over it. At least you are working on it. About the Love H in the e-mail. If he stopped using it on purpose, I don't believe he started by accident. He knows what he is doing. Take it as a positive sign. BUT, and this is a big one, don't take all these small positive signs as proof that he is fixed. He is still broken and needs a lot of work. Did you know you were getting a fix-er-upper when you married him? Maybe you ought to tell whoever preformed your marriage that you want a warranty refund. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Liz, we can see after a while who will be Ok and you will be OK. Is this Gods way of bringing you back? My oldest son was in a car accident in Dec, he broke his neck and his shoulder but is healed and went back to work 2 weeks ago. He says it was Gods wake up call to him. ( he had been doing some things he knew were wrong.) He is changing his life, and that is good. I wish he had not needed such a shock but the end result has been good. I can't tell if this is the case for you, but if the end result is good, you probably won't complain about it after a few years. Hold on to your faith in God, it is real. This I know. 
SS

Hi Dave and SS, the last fews days have been bad for me emotionally, as I said work isn't helping, but I'm addressing that. I don't often beat myself up over this, but every now and then I get attack of the guilties, and the possibility of plan b makes me wish I had been a better wife. I am trying to lift myself out of this. I discussed this cycle of up and down with my counsellor last Sunday and she indicated it was normal, as long as I could get out of it and it didn't last too long. The logical, scientific part of my brain is trying to kick in and talk the other parts back to 'normality'. I'm trying to tell you 'I'll get there'.I tested the water with H and sent a fun email with 'love SH' on it, and got a 'love H' again. It may be a good sign, I would like to think it is, but I'm scared to get excited about anything right now.SS, I knew my husband had flaws when I married him, but I never new I'd be sending him away for a total recondition and computer replacement.So, now just waiting for an answer re counselling... I have a dinner on Friday with a friend from work who has been pretty supportive. She told me there would be about 10-15 people - all divers with great stories to tell. I'm really looking forward too it, it will help me immensely right now.SH

<blockquote>quote:<hr> The logical, scientific part of my brain is trying to kick in and talk the other parts back to 'normality'. <hr></blockquote>If you ever figure out how to do it, let me know. I have been trying to get back to normal for years. But then, perhaps I don't have a normal to get back to. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I bet that being with a bunch of divers and telling stories will help a lot. Have a great time. Hope you get things setteled at work, you have enough problems without problems there also.
See You later,
SS

Work is ongoing, but I know I have to start standing up for myself, its been an ongoing promblem that must be address, and has some hand in my M problems (mainly relating to stress=no thinking about sex= no sex, etc, etc).Anyway, H is meeting me Saturday for lunch, its his birthday on Sunday so I've got to get a nice pressie for him. I've got a few ideas. I will ask him re the counselling then, I've given him plenty of time to think about it. I will keep you posted.

Hi Seahorse -- I just wanted to tell you that you are AMAZING. You have done a great plan A so far and if your marriage doesn't work out (which I think it will because you appear to be a great person/now if your WH can just get his head out of his rump) I wanted to let you know that my sister met her husband in a diving cert class.My WH told me today that he wants to come home and try to work it out. LOTS of work ahead, but I wanted to let you know this because we have roughly the same d-day and my WH moved out and was waffling/continuing the A (yuck, yuck, yuck). When I've been down and having a hard time doing plan A; I come here and read and read your posts. I too have made lots of changes that have really surprise my WH.Jennifer Harley Chalmers was counseling me to go to plan B, but she also had me write an I desire letter that spelled out what I wanted out of a new marriage and what "trying to work on marriage" meant to me. WH mulled this over for two weeks and today tells me he wants to come home and try. The Idesire letter is imbedded in the text of my post over on Gen QII today.I am thinking about you and hoping for the best. You GO GIRL [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Unsureheart and SS.SS, you have a good point, what the hell is normality anyway? I don't know what normal is now that you mention it. I'll settle with 'relaxed and happy'.Unsureheart, this letter is a great idea. I can't do it for this weekend - printer problems, but I can certainly do it and post it to his house next week. The conversation I had with him on the weekend sounded very much like the one you had with your H, I didn't say it but I think he realises I can't continue like this much longer.A lot of people tell me they met their H/W while diving. It is a great place to meet men, there are more men than women who do this sport. Its just that I want to take my H diving. I want him to be my diving buddy. I sure hope he does get that head out of his rump - as you so eloquently put it!!! I will give it ago and post the letter here as usual. I have got a second draft plan B letter ready, and will post that here too. But I've got other priorities first. Yes, he is second on my list at the moment. He'll just have to wait there for a minute or two while I organise myself and the rest of my life. I'm a busy woman you know!!SS, you know how we talked about praying to God and asking for help? I have done that for a week or so constantly now, and Unsureheart's post suddenly appeared. I don't want to get my hopes too high, but maybe this is a sign to just try a couple of more things before the 'Big B'... Just a thought I guess time will tell.SH[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Seahorse -- I'm thinking about you today and hoping things are going better at work. WH came over last night to fix the sprinkler system and it was pleasant, but no discussion. Hard for me to keep my mouth shut as I am impatient, but I did want to honor his request that we not get into the moving back home discussion until after I read his letter. He wrote his own "what I desire from our marriage" letter that he is going to give me next week when I get back from my mini-vacation this weekend (good food, good friends and a day at a spa/can't wait). In the past, I would have tried to engage in this type of discussion before he was ready. I'm learning to be more patient and accept the fact that he feels under incredible pressure and I need to work with his time frame on this. I don't want to blow it now that something positive appears to be happening.

Yes, God cares about us, and he can perform miracles, but it is usually through other people that he meets our needs. ( I could tell you stories.) Hey, if you have the energy to try a few things, go for it. We were just worried you were running out of petrol. Like I said, he is already broken, trying something on him won't break him now. I would think the B-day is a good chance to make deposits in his LB$. Most of us have high expectations for Birthdays. Hope you have fun with it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Remember, use logic, reason, and your "feelings" to make a plan, then go with it, despite the down feelings that come. Yaaaaaa ! Go Seahorse ! SSPS, I just re-read a few posts. Are you having him go to counseling as part of your boundries for reconcilation?
You may have better luck if you use Spacecases approach. Tell him you need the help - and that you need him to go with you for feedback to the counsler on how you can improve. ( then clue in the counsler about what you are doing.) Any good counsler could work with that.[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Unsureheart,You said when you are down, you come here and read seahorse's posts. And I find you posting on this thread. Does that mean you you are down and need some help? I can't say I know your story so I won't comment directly about you. HOWEVER, (lets see, if I do hugs and kisses, my wife will have a problem, how about..... naaa, well what if... naaa.) Lets just say "Have a nice day." [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] BTW, you are a big help yourself. Keep up the good work. SS

Seahorse -- What got me thinking about all of this and into another session with Jennifer was the post over on Gen QII about the length of time for plan A and the discussion there. I had given myself a six month time frame, but was really losing my love fast over the past few weeks. Jennifer observed that because I had something left and my WH seemed to somewhat be coming out of the fog that it wouldn't hurt to try the I desire letter. Maybe write one out and look at it and at your plan B letter and see which one feels right to you. I think you have nothing to lose by doing the I desire letter. It's not clingy or demanding but makes it clear that you recognize your marriage has to be different and outlines what trying means in some fashion without demands.I agree with Still seeking on the counseling thing if your WH is gunshy about it. My WH has other issues besides the A that create problems for him (well doesn't everybody I guess). I still don't know if he'll agree to these boundaries for trying/coming home and I won't know until next week. I do know that I can't go back to the way it was and that he needs outside counsel besides me. He is a very private person and doesn't really have close friends he confides in very much. I haven't really thought through what I will say/how I will react if he rejects the marriage counseling idea. I think what Still seeking referenced might be a good approach -- it's for me and he can be there to be helpful.Still seeking -- I'm not really down today since I had real boost yesterday with my WH at least acknowledging he wants to try and to move back home. I think I'm just daunted by what's to come next. I imagine this is going to be very hard. I honestly don't know how we're going to get that connection back, but I'm willing to try the MB approach since plan A has helped me so much.So glad you're all here. Hope your weekend goes great Seahorse.

Hi Guys, I don't have much of an update, but I wanted to thank you both. I will try to do the letter today and pop it in his present.I am glad you reminded me that he's 'broken' SS, I kind of forgot that he's still really at the beginning. I'm going to print off some of the concepts on this website and give them to him tomorrow too with the I desire letter. I will invite him to write one too. Just to see what his reaction is. I really want to try whatever I can, before I go to the Big B, then I'll be satisfied in myself. I've still got a little steam there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
I'm going to print off some of the concepts on this website and give them to him tomorrow too with the I desire letter. I will invite him to write one too. <hr></blockquote>Be careful, Lizzie.Not too much at once.Baby steps.You cannot be in a hurry.General rule of thumb is not to try to educate them until they're seeking it out and don't ask them to contribute until they offer. Only you can be the judge of this. If you're not sure, please hold off.If you choose to try anyway, be prepared for a cool reception with a casual reply:You: Here's some stuff for you to read that I found to be real helpful for me.Him: Ah, er, thanks.You: And I thought you might be willing to answer my letter with one of your own.....Him: Ah..........You: But, hey, if you don't feel like it or you're not up to it right now, no worries, just keep it in mind if you think you might want to later, some other time. OK? Wanna go swim with the blood thirsty sharks instead?WAT

Seahorse -- I think WAT is right -- baby steps. I gave him the I desire letter without communicating ANYTHING about hoping he would respond or any kind of time frame. I also tried to stop "educating" him/giving him books weeks ago. It was obvious (after MANY mistakes) that he felt like I was pushing him and he backed WAY off.I would just give him the letter. Remember, I had NO REACTION to the letter for more than two weeks (just about sent me over the edge, but I kept plan Aing). Baby steps. One step at a time. (WAT is always right it seems).

Hi everyone, did not give H any letters, mainly because I didn't have time, then saw your posts. Saw him Saturday for lunch and we had more good talks. I told him that its hard because he dosen't give me any feedback or tell me what he's thinking. I said that sometimes I feel like just giving up.He told me not to, to hang in there, but he was still unsure. He told me today in an email that I looked health and well and he loved my boots (the sexy knee high types, I won't repeat what we call them in Aust). I think he was trying to tell me in a safe way that I look good to him.He told me that he's worried about telling me things as before I would get angry if he did. I acknowledged that I was like that and that I would be more open now, that I felt like i had let him down.He said that its not all one sided and I wasn't the only one at fault.I told him about all the reading and webstuff I've been doing and he said, ok what have you leart. So I told him, he wasn't expecting that I had something meaningful to say - I could tell by the look on his face. I think he was secretly impressed [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Anyway, we're still up in the air, strangely, even though it was all fairly positive I feel more insecure about it. I realise he is way behind, I've learnt so much he's back at the start. He told me that he was sceptical that I'd changed because it all happened so soon, but he likes the changes. I told him that was good as I like me as I am now.I gave him a birthday card with an abbreviated love letter in it. Some of what I'd said in the plan B letter without the goodbye. He rang me after opening it and told me how much it meant to him, the things I said in it and that he was thankful for me giving him this time.I think he knows that I'm coming to the end of my bit.This is good, isn't it? So why do I feel so insecure? Help.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
........I think he knows that I'm coming to the end of my bit.This is good, isn't it? So why do I feel so insecure? Help.<hr></blockquote>Why do you feel this way? BEcause you are stepping into an unknown field. Your reaction is quite normal my dear. Just proceed with caution. You are doing fine. He is seeing and thinking of you. Quite an improvement from a few months ago wouldn't you say? See step back and see your progress. Let him worry about Seahorse. Let him wonder what his life will be like without the one he knows the best and the one who cares for him, really cares for him the most. Let him wonder. U are doing good. Don't be worried about this turn of events. You have the foundation to survive this. Remember if you can swim with sharks, this should be a piece of cake!!! take care,
L.

I'm being impatient are I? I got so excited with a little bit of positivity, that I started to expect a lot. I think I've given him enough to think about for a while, so I will back off a little and recharge my batteries. Concentrate on what I need to attend to.Both of us have come a long way since D-day, and at one stage in the beginning he told me it was over, now he's saying don't walk away, so you are right, Orchid, there has been good progress. Slowly does it for the BS, keep the mantra going "wait, wait".Oh boy!

Hi Seahorse -- You are just like me. Something positive and we want it all right away. I think you did well to give him the birthday card and then plan to back off a bit. Patience is a virtue (but not one I've ever been good at [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] although I am learning as part of plan A).My WH is away on business all this week and I am looking forward to this weekend with some trepidation and probably too much hope as he is to give me his letter and we are to discuss the possibility of him moving home. While I think I do want him home and want to try and work on our relationship; it's actually a little scary to think about it and continuing to want too much too fast. I keep reminding myself that it took years to get to this point and I shouldn't expect too much too soon.Hang in there. You sound so much more at peace/comfortable with yourself in your posts these days than the early posts. You have come a long way.

I think Orchid is right, I think you are afraid of the unknown. So far it has been all you trying and him not responding. It stinks, but at least it never changes. Now he is responding and - well, what will happen? And you are right to worry about him being way behind in his developement. What if you get back together and you can't stand being with him? Thats another thing in the back of your mind - and you worry about it too. But you don't know enough to let it bother you yet. Just keep going, slow and easy. You will be alright. You really will .SS

Seahorse -- How are you doing with work and your WH?

Hi everyone, thanks for your support. There has not been too much change this week. H still a bit foggy- "I don't know what I'm doing on the weekend, I'll let you know", blah, blah, blah.I was fairly annoyed with this email, so replied "If you can't make it,don't worry, I've got plenty to keep me going!" I was quite pleased with myself. I nearly sent an email today asking what he was doing but controlled myself.I've been getting a 'Love H' in nearly every email!! Then on Wednesday he suddenly send me a real flirty/suggestive email - he hasnt really done that before. Its all too bizarre. Between me and him, neither of us are predictable anymore.So this weekend, so far, will be for me. I'm going to do the day-spa thing (at home), go shopping (all the sales have started) and maybe buy myself a bike helmet!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Your right SS and Orchid, its all becoming a bit scary. I've been 'in crises' and now he's responding and I'm not sure how to take it, I guess with a grain of salt, in case it all changes again...chow
SH

Need to vent. Hurting today. Haven't seen or heard anything for a few days. While nothing has changed with H, these periods of 'nothing' change me. It hurts, it makes me wonder why I am hanging on. I don't want to stop loving him, but its times like this I see no choice really, and I deserve better than this.I have waited now for 5 months for him to decide, there is one month till I reach my deadline, but I feel like I need something now. Its like he dosen't see me and then he dosen't care anymore, goes back into the fog I'm guessing. I don't know, I just don't know. I am praying for guidance, but nothing is coming. I'm confused and hurt. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

Hi, Liz,
There are times when we just don't know and we sometimes see things in their worst light, and not the best. This is one of those down times. Tomorrow will be a better day. You really don't know. Perhaps he was injured and is in the hospital. ( OK, not very likely, but we never know, do we? ) Perhaps the worst is true, but we still don't know. So the grain of salt is best for the good, but also for the bad. Take the bad feelings with a grain of salt. Sometimes we don't get an answer to our prayers because it's not time. Not because there is no answer. Smile, even laugh a little. Doesn't that make you feel better? Don't give up yet. Try some more things. I bet you still have some left yet. SS
Ps, After I posted, I thought of your good help for MRFlorida. What if his wife has a relapse? What would you advise? Take the same advice, you have seen some positive. The "I Love You's" are real. Remember that this is a roller coaster, not a linear rising graph. Perhaps by the time you read this, you will already feel better. If so, file it away for the next time.[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hello Everyone, I am doing well. I saw H yesterday for lunch (had a day off). It was strange really, half of me was absolutely terrified to see him the other half couldn't wait. Again we had more discussions about the R, why it took this to happen for me to change, why I didn't change earlier, etc. I told him I am putting myself out on a limb and taking a lot of criticism, that I am sorry. Sometimes it is easier to get angry at another person, tha too admit your wrong - this was my only explanation to him. He acknowledged that he was at fault too.He said he does like what he sees now, but again, he is frightened. I said that I would expect some changes too - he jokingly said 'minimal', but really he meant it. He has said this before A. I told him if he wasn't willing to make certain changes he should let me know because I need certain things to happen.I told him that he must be honest with me from now on, that even if he thinks it will hurt me he must be honest, that we must be honest with each other for this to work. An example was about the sex issue, he told me pre-A he never thought about sex, now he says he thought about it all the time. I asked him to never do that again. We agreed that we were not as good communicators as we thought. I don't know the status of the A, its irrelevant to me at this point, I don't know why, maybe because there is progress. Shouldn't I be worried about it? I mean, it does sometimes, but not all the time. He is coming out this weekend to see me and do some work around the house. I miss having him around. I miss not going to sleep with him at night. This still makes me cry.I do think about life without him, but I am still holding on to hope. Do I let go completely? Do I move on? I am being patient but he may not come back. How do I plan the rest of my life without him when I want him here with me? He is telling me things that are hopeful, that he likes what he sees, but what if the fear stops him, how do I go through all this again? I am in such a spot at the moment. I am in total limbo. I'm stuck and don't know what to do. Should I plan my life without him or just take it day by day. I think day by day is easier, but every now and then this happens and I get scared. See I also want to move from this house. I love the actual house, but it is too big for me and I need something smaller and closer to the city. But I am frightened to move, it would mean he could walk away, it may be disasterous for me. God forbid, I may have to move in with dad! This also worries me, what will happen to me without him, when I am totally alone? I don't evenknow where to live or how to do some of the moving stuff - we did it together when we got married - he did most of the dealings. I don't know. I keep praying, I hope God will answer me soon.

Liz,
You are doing it again. Did you ever read the link I suggested a while ago? You need to read it and come back and lets talk. You don't need to be afraid. - I could say a lot more but go read the thread first. It's here
Discussion on fear, training spouse It covers two things you need right now. Take it day by day, and in a few weeks ( if you still are worried) you can re-visit this again with all of us. Don't be afraid of progress, you have been waiting for these conversations with H. BE GLAD!!. You can still opt out if you want. But, before you couldn't opt back in. Now you may be able to! You might just have a new option that you didn't have a month ago. Lets see what happens this month - OK? SS

Hi Seahorse,SS is good to help keep U in check. Sometimes our minds wander and we start to make a lot of suppositions, this can get us into trouble. 
Step back and breathe. Pay attention to what SS is saying. Need to stay on the staight and narrow. Letting our minds wonder too much may be a dangerous thing. From here, I see you more steady and ready to move forward than your H. Yes, there will always be uncertainities in our future. Life is just like that. But you wonder what it will be like alone? You have been doing that for a while and take a look at what you have been doing? I mean how many of us can say that when our Ws' left we went swimming with sharks?!?!?! U really have to give yourself more credit than you have been. Of course you want someone to pamper you. That person will come. For now, pamper yourself. Your current frustration and momments of anxiety are normal. Part of the healing process. Really you are quite normal. At least for us BS!!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Ok SS and Orchid, thanks for your replies. I am up and down a lot, and I guess, to me its all clear cut and we should be on our way. I know he is scared, and I am being inpatient, I know to push too hard now would be a disaster. I have a very active imagination Orchid, so a wandering mind for me is not good - I have the wind blowing in the trees outside as a knife weilding burgler in my head - you know what I mean? Maybe I better think of some new activity to try.Yes I have done a lot and I've been having fun, but I don't want to be alone for too much longer. Its good while all this stuff is going on, at least I only have to look after me. I know, I know, maybe I am looking too far ahead right now.SS I did actually look at that link last time, and I've read it again. OK so I need to 'train' H to meet my needs - learn to ask for things. See I'm scared to at this point. Things are moving ahead, what if he sees it as demanding? There are things I'd like to ask him for and to do, I just need to learn to do it in a way that he won't see as demanding.For example, my bellydance classes finished this week for a few weeks. I would like to go see him at his home once a week during the week while they're not on, but I'm scared of being rejected, of him saying no, because it will hurt, but then if I just add something into a conversation, he won't get it (if I don't spell it out), so it means a risk. Other things to ask him for are less risky, so I'm happy to do them, am I getting this SS, if this what your talking about - asking him to fulfill my needs and if he's willing it may mean we are heading towards recovery? I will come back to this, I am very tired and I need to have a bath to warm up (its been -1 celcius here - brrrr). I can;t concentrate I'm so cold!!![ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

ALso, maybe the thing about the definition of being 'there' yet. Maybe I'm narrowing my definition of a relationship too much at this point, excluding the possibility that right now it is a relationship even though its not the picture I have in my head of how it should be.OK I have to work now, but how am I going? Its better I do this in bits anyway, it gives me time to mull it over...

You are on the right track, I will come back to it but I have not time until much later today.
SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Orchid said:
I mean how many of us can say that when our Ws' left we went swimming with sharks?!?!?! U really have to give yourself more credit than you have been.

Your current frustration and moments of anxiety are normal. Part of the healing process. <hr /></blockquote>She is right, look back and see how far you have come, and BE HAPPY ABOUT IT ! LOL.

It's hard though, it's hard. Very easy to say "don't think about it."
I have a challenge for you that goes with this, but I'll save it for the end.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> For example, my bellydance classes finished this week for a few weeks. I would like to go see him at his home once a week during the week while they're not on, but I'm scared of being rejected, of him saying no, because it will hurt, but then if I just add something into a conversation, he won't get it (if I don't spell it out), so it means a risk. Other things to ask him for are less risky, so I'm happy to do them, am I getting this SS, if this what your talking about - asking him to fulfill my needs and if he's willing it may mean we are heading towards recovery? <hr /></blockquote>Yes, this is exactly right. But don't pin all your hopes on one thing, and approach it in a different way.
Have you tried it like this? H, this has been a hard road for both of us, and I am struggling to keep going, will you:
Give me a kiss tonight
Let me come and see you a night a week.
Make love to me
( Well, this is just to illustrate, you need to fill in the blanks with what you need/ want/ think he will go for. )

Make a big list, what you need, and another, what you think it would be wise to start with, based on how things are going that night/ that week. Don't be afraid, treat it as a game. If he says no, say thanks for considering it. Then smile and think of what you will try next. Remember when you dated, and were out to catch a man. See if you can catch him. See if he will help you do it - by giving you permission for a two way meeting of needs. ( it will meet his too, don't kid yourself it's all for you.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ALso, maybe the thing about the definition of being 'there' yet. Maybe I'm narrowing my definition of a relationship too much at this point, excluding the possibility that right now it is a relationship even though its not the picture I have in my head of how it should be. <hr /></blockquote>I think he believes you are in a relationship. He is seeing you again. That's a start - for him. For you, it won't be real until he says he wants to move back in with you. I really believe he thinks you are on the road back together. I hope he doesn't keep on so slow.

My challenge is this: Every time you start to play the "what if" game, do it positively. Instead of "what if I ask him to kiss me and he says no?" Add on the end, " and what if he says " Kiss? You are the prettiest girl in the world, I'll kiss you as much as I can get away with."

For every negative, you have to think of a positive too. Think of it as balance.

I look forward to see what you come up with for this weekend. I can see good signs. You already know their will be small speed bumps, find a positive for every negative.

SS

[ June 28, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

What's up Seahorse ... I saw your reply to BR. Anything new this weekend ?. -RH-

I've been reading the post again, but its not getting in at the moment. Its two months since mum died today, and I did not expect that I would be in such a state. Something has taken over me and I'm working on Autopilot. I've spent most of the day crying with grief. Grief for mum, grief for H. Its been very hard and I'm doing my best just to ride through it.

Saw H yesterday, he came out to see me. We spent lunch together at a cafe and went home for a while. When we kiss, there is no real return on his part. I feel like I'm kissing a manequin and it hurts. WE had no discussions about the relationship and he was very foggy, saying cutting things again and doing things to get a rise from me.

I asked him if I could see him during hte week while classes were finished, but didn't really get a warm response. I told him that he did'nt have to, and I won't throw myself down screaming if he says no, of course, he said that that's what I used to do. It was comments like this every now and then. I am assuming it means he has contact with her again or the grip has got strong again. Its the same kind of carry on.

He said maybe in a week or so come out. He said he was busy today, blah blah, but I felt like he was hiding something. I often feel this way when I'm with him.

I have come back after a few hours - could he be afraid of me, of what I could do to him as Oaktown's H is, if he get close to me again.

Seahorse,

It is hard when you need somebody to lean on and the very person that you long for is not available. Stay strong, your H is not there yet. IMVHO, you should set your expectation of H as a close freind that you need to talk to not to get emotional support at all. You should look after yourself now and it might even mean to stay away from H for a while. Think about it.

Actually my WW's plan B is the best thing that she ever has done to me after A. I don't have no contact and have to use lawyers to talk. Now I am ready to treat her like another freind but she is not. She is still in blaming game and every other sentence she point finger at me. I just walk away and never bothers to approach her again. -RH-

I'm at work, so I'll make it a quick reply, and come back later. I'm much better today after crying for most of yesterday - now I have to drink twice my quota of water to replenish!

Yes Redhat, I've been quite unhappy and I suddenly realised it was because I started to shift the focus on what H wants and not me. I will continue to work on M, but I have to remember that not looking after myself and my interests is part of what got me here. I probably won't see him for a while now, and actually it will be good to recharge and refocus on me just for a little. It can also give me time to ponder SS' suggestions (I'm coming back to those).

I also had a bit of a read about control again as I can feel that creeping back into the situation, so I'm trying to back off again and concentrate on living and forget about the things H does when I'm not around and what he dosen't want to tell me.

Just a quick note about something though, he emailed me early this morning at work. I didn't reply as I've got a backlog of work. By the end of lunch he rang me here to check why I hadn't responded (he thought I might be ill and at home). I thought that was quite interesting really, although now I feel guilty because I didn't make it a priority. Fair dinkum, what's a BS to do with all these emotions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi, Liz,
I talk positive, because we have to do it that way. The negitive comes by itself.

We don't know the outcome yet for you. We just don't. It is almost impossible to look at the big picture when we have bad experiances. I can't do it always either, but I try, and am getting better. That's all you can do, try your best. That's what we expect from you.

I am sorry the kiss is not where it needs to be. I think back about W and I early on. It was the same for us. I can't think when it changed, but it did. The old magic is back - actually it's better somehow. I can't explain it, but it is. There is more love now, more understanding. It's like after going through the fire, we connect on a better and higher level. I don't worry or wonder any more what is going on, I know we are OK.

I hope to see you in the same place a year from now. But for now, just ride it out. It may be that all the bad things are true, could be. But I just don't think it is so. Perhaps some are, but not all. There is some good going on between you.

He has to make some decisions, true. But more and more of them look to be positive ( when looking long term.) So, just keep going, lets go another week. Yes, focus on you most of the time. You can't afford the negitive "what if" game, it tears you apart.

Liz, you are strong enough, you don't have to wonder about that too. You will make it OK. Have some faith in yourself. I believe that next time you pray you will at least feel a calm peaceful feeling so that you know that God cares. For now, that may be enough. He is working on it, don't think otherwise.

We're all here too, we won't go away. Smile again, there, that's better. See you around.
SS

OK SS I've been reading again and picked up a couple other things. Here goes:

My H may be scared of me (emotionally), as I said earlier.

I could look at the 'what's the worst that can happen' view. I think you are right too, I am prone to negative thinking and must catch myself doing it and replace it with postitive thoughts. Challenge it and become stronger.

I haven't properly recognized the needs that my H has meet for me and reinforced it.

Maybe I could find out how he sees our relationship developing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The other thing, that took me years to honestly face, is that I always assumed that my H's "way" was the "right" way to approach just about anything because he was rational, factual and absolutely dispassionately sure he was always right. To the point I gave up having an opinion. Don't do this. You always have an opinion about what YOU want and what YOU need. These are not the only things your M needs to address, but they must be included. You know this. So don't just hand this over to your H and say I tried, I give up, you do it. You just started. You opened the dialog. Now hear his side and start re-building something you both want.

<hr /></blockquote>This is me. I was exactly like this. Maybe I could take this and put it away for the right time too. I have to be strong and confident in my life for me as well as to attract him.

So how am I going. The big picture is I would like to be in a loving relationship where we meet each other needs and are happy. Were we will both work together and communicate to reach an intimacy deeper than before. Whether this is with my H or not - well only time will tell. I hope and pray it is with him, if not, God give me the strength to get through this.

******

I thought about the taking stock thing that Orchid suggested too. Here is my list:

I've gone to movies, cafes, shops, a pop concert and a holiday by myself and survived. Me, all alone, by myself!

I gained my divers cert.

I swam with sharks - twice.

I truly understand what the term 'a friend in need is a friend indeed' means.

I lost my mum but gained memories of our relationship before the dementia and parkinson's took over.

My relationship with my dad has gone to a new level.

I nearly have my learners motorbike licence.

I have a part time job in promotions - something I would have been too scared to do, and a new found confidence in general.

I know I can look after myself.

I can turn a queensized mattress by myself, even though I've lost a lot of weight.

I can nearly bellydance and laugh at myself doing it.

I can read and follow car maps.

Asking for help is not as scary as I thought.

I've found out that sex is quite fun.

I've identified some things that were not good in our marriage.

I've admitted I was wrong and taken stock of how I contributed to this mess.

I'm learning to let go of control.

There, thats a pretty good list, and I could probably add more if I thought about it.

Anyway I'm signing off now. SS I really appreciate your replies they make me think. I will get there I promise.

I just reread your posting and I will make the needs list, that's a good idea actually. I can already think of a few and a massage is right there at the top!! But again, slowly does it, and not this week, its been too emotional.

RH I'm sorry to hear about your wife. one day she will wake up, and if she dosen't well....You daughters are very lucky to have you.

I have always been impressed with the reserves of strength you have. When you think everything is gone, you always manage to find some more and come back even stronger. Thats what it takes. That's why I believe you will be OK.

Way to go girl, way to go.

SS

Seahorse,

You have came a long way girl ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . It is the best situation for BS to be in ... from outside looking into the fog and not get suck into it. I hope your H will realize it soon before you run out of gas.

Any plan to come to Bali ? ... I will visit my country next year and I will visit Bali as part of my visit. Couldn't wait to swim at Legian or Kuta beach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -RH-

[ July 01, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

Hi all, compiling lots of lists and doing lots of reading and redirecting my thoughts away from H & OW and other non-helpful stuff.

RH - I would love to go to Bali, never been, but so many Aussies have! I believe its great diving there. I would like to see the island of Lombok and how they make the pots there.

Planning a dive for this weekend if the seas are good. Really need it right now.

I have asked H if he will have dinner or lunch with me in the next week SS, I am scared of being rejected again. I hope he says yes, I hope he replies because he's getting into the habit of ignoring my requests (the counselling, meeting during the week, etc). the 'love H' has gone from his emails again. That also hurts.

[ July 02, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Perhaps he is overloaded - to much, to soon. You can always back off for a little while. I wish he knew what he was doing, but he doesn't.

Are you coming on to strong, or is it just him? Or can you tell? I hope he answers too, not answering is disrespectful, and probably bad. Is he even there? Perhaps computer down? Could there be any reason you can think of? Roommate deleteing his mail?

BTW, if he is afraid, not answering means no. It depends on his personality type. Is he a conflict avoider? Is this his way of not wanting to tell you no? Can you communicate to him that you need an answer and communication, and that it is OK for him to say no. Is this part of the problem long term between the two of you? Take another look at some of this stuff and see if you can learn anything about him, and you, that you can fix or change to make it work better. Can you ask him to communicate? Use the $ex conversation as an example of how badly it can go bad if not discussed? Send a short note explaining why you want to communicate? Tell him you want to talk then you will back off?

You know what will work best, see what you can do.

Hey, don't go there with the negative thougts. Just let them go, Oh, what to say to help.

Frustration for you....

I hope he catches on soon.

You had better pray again, its the only thing that ever really works. Just do the best you can. Try to be positive.

SS

[ July 02, 2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Thanks SS, He did reply with a yes, but not dinner said he is too busy at night-my gut says it bullsh$t. He says there is a lot going on in his mind at the moment he is confused.

I think I know when things took a downturn. During lunch last week I pointed out that he was not very creative in sex and that he would have to make changes too. He dosen't like making changes, ever, he has always said in our marriage that he is the way he is and can't change (this is for everything).

I looked back at another phone bill I had from him in may. I noted another number that appeared on it a lot at night and on weekends. I rang it and it is a girl he works with. Another one. Its possible that he is having multiple affairs. Actually it is not the first time. A few years ago I caught him on the chat lines with a woman and he ended it.

SS, he is a conflict avoider and uses silence as a no. I know I am partly responsible for this as I would get angry. I should not have done it, I am committed to not doing, I cannot change the past. I have said to him he can say no to me, I have said that I will not get angry.

Could we please have a discussion about plan B? I really think that maybe it would be the healthiest thing for me to do that very soon, to at least get ready for it. I am getting strong feelings to protect myself. To be independent. To be ready. Although it scares me I don't know what else to do. I could live with one, even two OW, but just how many are there? I don't derserve this kind of disrepect. He won't talk to me much so I don't know for sure. Also, when he gets scared he goes foggy and possibly turns to OW. If he dosen't want to change, the relationship will go back to how it was, I need for him to make a couple of changes, he has to be willing to do that or it won't work for me. One is allowing me to be creative with sex, and possibly taking it out of his comfort zone.

I think I have hung in well, my deadline is 26th July, I set this long ago. I think I should stick to it.

What do you think?

I rang Harley's on the radio about two weeks ago. He suggested I do it at a time when plan A is very good. But now H is foggy again. So when do I do it? When things are good, you are tempted to keep going. I've more or less written the letter. Dad has OK'd me to move in with him if I need to. My job is stable. I am hurting. Even though he said yes to lunch I am hurting because there were conditions attached to it. I feel very unloved. I want someone who cares about me. I know I can't have that now, but at the very least I don't want someone who will hurt me.

Help, what do I do? am I reacting to hurt in the wrong way. I am being rational?

I am wondering if life would be better without him for a little while. Should I recharge for a week-have a mini plan B and then see how it goes. by this I mean don't contact him and see how I feel about it, but not give him the letter. I know plan B is drastic because once I'm in it there's no turning back. How do I know when the time is right?

[ July 03, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Seahorse,

The real diving site is around Flores Island ... but not for the faint heart. Close by is Komodo Island ... yes, Komodo !!!. A giant lizard that could swim, could stand up w/ two legs, could out run us and .... could climb !!!. Their lick is poisonous ... I might go there for diving, I have a local contact.

Switch subject, have you read Michele Weiner-Davis's - Divorce Busting ?. It is a narrow application of plan A. Try it ... it is doing 180 degrees on what you have been doing. Test it a bit and see if it is working then do it full blast. Let H chases you instead. Re-read also the link about a Venusian Lady, see if it is applied to your H. Most men, a dumb ones ... no disrespect to your H, need those treatment.

-RH-

Hi Redhat, I'd love to see a Komodo dragon - do you know who Steve Irwin is - he wresled one I think. We have monitor lizards in Oz.

I have read those links. I think I just need to give myself a little break. I think I'm in recovery and he isn't. I have to remember that. I don;t see him now till the 13th, so that will help me recharge. I really hope my dive goes ahead on Saturday and I'm doing a crisis telephone shift on Sunday.

Then a facial is planned for 3 weeks time, but I'm going to add a few things, to distract myself.

I'm getting ready to sell/move in about a month too, it scares me and I know I will miss this house - even if it is too big, gosh we lived here 8 years.

I'm gonna do a mini plan B/180 and not go out of my way to contact him. Hopefully by the next time I see him my thinking will be back on track.

Otherwise I start to worry people...

THe fact that I am selling my house hit me hard this morning. I have worked very hard to make it nice. Now its there and I have to sell it because my H is being selfish.

He says either way he will never come back there. Either way, I cannot look after it by myself.

I will get something better by the end of the year. I will find the perfect house - it will be close to where I work, I will be able to have my dog there and it will be spacious and modern and not cost me too much. I want it by the end of the year. If H wants to join me so be it.

When I was 18, I wrote a diary entry that outlined everything I wanted in a man. Then my H came along. The power of lists and wishes shouldn't be underestimated.

Hi Liz, I can see you would like to talk,
I think I will take this one line by line.

Thanks SS, He did reply with a yes, but not dinner said he is too busy at night-my gut says it bullsh$t. He says there is a lot going on in his mind at the moment he is confused.
I side with you on this one, think you are right. Sounds like he is backtracking for some reason. Confused? I bet he is, he has been for a long time. Question is, why the change, he was coming along.

I think I know when things took a downturn. During lunch last week I pointed out that he was not very creative in sex and that he would have to make changes too. He doesn't like making changes, ever, he has always said in our marriage that he is the way he is and can't change (this is for everything).
OK, that makes sense. You made a demand, he ran. I know people like this, they can change for the worse ( he leaves you) but they can't improve themselves. ( it takes work, help, help.)

I looked back at another phone bill I had from him in may. I noted another number that appeared on it a lot at night and on weekends. I rang it and it is a girl he works with. Another one. Its possible that he is having multiple affairs. Actually it is not the first time. A few years ago I caught him on the chat lines with a woman and he ended it.
I can't remember reading this before. ( about a few years ago.) I don't have a good reply for this one. I thought it was a one time thing. I used to think he was just weak, felt sorry for him. Now I am just angry. But that doesn't help you much. Lets go on . . . .

SS, he is a conflict avoided and uses silence as a no. I know I am partly responsible for this as I would get angry. I should not have done it, I am committed to not doing, I cannot change the past. I have said to him he can say no to me, I have said that I will not get angry.
Does he believe you yet? I mean, has he spoken with you enough, about things that would have set you off before, and have you been able to stay calm? Does he have any excuse? I have a hard time wanting to cut him any slack at all after looking at the length of his problems. But what do you think? I wasn't there for any of those conversations, past or present. You had better call this one.

Could we please have a discussion about plan B? I really think that maybe it would be the healthiest thing for me to do that very soon, to at least get ready for it. I am getting strong feelings to protect myself. To be independent. To be ready. Although it scares me I don't know what else to do.
You are trying hard to be brave, not be negative. We have perhaps said to much about it lately. It's probably time. I can hear the quiver in your voice. Don't take it so hard.

I could live with one, even two OW, but just how many are there? I don't deserve this kind of disrepect. He won't talk to me much so I don't know for sure. Also, when he gets scared he goes foggy and possibly turns to OW. You don't have to live with any OW. We both know that plan A is temporary. It can't last forever. If he can't/won't change, B is the next step. It looks like there is still OW from what you said in beginning. Looks like Cake Man. I didn't know these things, I say B.

If he doesn't want to change, the relationship will go back to how it was, I need for him to make a couple of changes, he has to be willing to do that or it won't work for me. One is allowing me to be creative with sex, and possibly taking it out of his comfort zone.
These are called boundaries, you have to have them in place to make it work. You are correct in your thinking as far as I can see. Someone that won't even discuss something can't do POJA. Without that, no recovery.

I think I have hung in well, my deadline is 26th July, I set this long ago. I think I should stick to it. What do you think? I rang Harley's on the radio about two weeks ago. He suggested I do it at a time when plan A is very good. But now H is foggy again. So when do I do it? When things are good, you are tempted to keep going. I've more or less written the letter.
Keep the deadline, it gives you time for the mini B for a few days, and to see what happens after that. Time to see if he will respond, if he thought it was too fast. Time to think about getting in a few more good plan A days at the end. Time to have another few talks if he can open up enough.

Dad has OK'd me to move in with him if I need to. My job is stable. I am hurting. Even though he said yes to lunch I am hurting because there were conditions attached to it. I feel very unloved. I want someone who cares about me. I know I can't have that now, but at the very least I don't want someone who will hurt me. I can't remember conditions? Did I miss something? In any case, you are right on all counts. You have very carefully thought things through, and are ready. I don't see what you could do any better right now.

Help, what do I do? Plan B
Am I reacting to hurt in the wrong way. No. With the additional facts before me, I say you are spot on.
I am being rational? Yes, you are. I am wondering how you do so well with all that hurt. Plan A has worked it's magic on you at least.

I am wondering if life would be better without him for a little while. Should I recharge for a week-have a mini plan B and then see how it goes. by this I mean don't contact him and see how I feel about it, but not give him the letter. I agree, also set up what you want to do the rest of the month until your deadline.

I know plan B is drastic because once I'm in it there's no turning back. How do I know when the time is right?
You have talked about it on and off for a few months. Unless you see signs of a major change, your own deadline sounds very good to me.

I'm getting ready to sell/move in about a month too, it scares me and I know I will miss this house - even if it is too big, gosh we lived here 8 years. These other things contribute to your fear. Change=fear to most of us.

I'm gonna do a mini plan B/180 and not go out of my way to contact him. Hopefully by the next time I see him my thinking will be back on track. Redhat gave good advice on this, but your thinking is already on track. If you had not gotten any feedback at all and gone with what you have suggested, you would be right there. I don't think you need us any more. But we'll stay around and see what happens anyway.

Otherwise I start to worry people... We worry all the time, no matter what you say. We just try not to show it sometimes so you will relax a little. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Liz, none of us are professionals at this. We come and ask for help, we try to help each other. Steve and Jennifer are pretty good, but there is one that is even better. Kneel down and pray about this, lay it all out to him. If it is the right thing, you will feel positive about it, and calm. It will feel good to you, even though you may still fear. If it is the wrong thing, you will feel dark, negative, unsure. Then come back and tell us what you plan on doing. Don't doubt yourself. We all have faith in you, give us a little credit for knowing something. ( bet that one makes you squirm, doesn't it.)

You have heard from Redhat, I hope Orchid will come in on this one too, Wouldn't hurt at all.

But, after all is said, what I know is that you will be OK.
SS

I see I missed you while I was composing that long, long, document above.

The feelings you are having are natural. We all get a little wistful when thinking about major changes, even when we have someone to share it with. Don't think you are the only one.
Talk to Dad about your feelings, perhaps he can identify more than you think. At least you know he cares. Remember that we do too.

I may not post tomorow, I will try not to worry about you if you try not to worry about us worring about you worring??? Did I get that right? Oh well, something else to worry about.
SS

[ July 03, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

SS I have posted an SOS on GQII for some ideas on implementing it. I'm at work so I have to go. I will be back.

Hi Seahorse,

I have been following your story. How are you doing?

Well, Its day three of plan B, no call, not that I'm really expecting one, just wishing for one. He's skiing this weekend. I'm still very sad, but I'm getting over the guilt thing. I know I contributed big time to this mess, but when I look back, I tried to do things with him - he never would, I tried counselling with him - he lied to counsellor. I tried, but he'd given up. Its wasn't just me, I think he has his own issues right now, one being depression. If he needs others to make life fun for him there's a problem- I could help him but he won't let me, because he knows its hard work and he's scared of trying. If he loves me and not her, but can't give her up so we can work on our marriage, there's a big problem.

So I'm working on not feeling guilty,and knowing I did my best.

I wish the execution of plan B had been better (no LB's) but I can't change it now. I don't know what the future holds for us now.

I have nurtured myself this weekend. Friday night I went out with a friend and got this all out of my system. She went through a break up too, and she listens without judging.

Yesterday I layed in the sun (it was a beutiful winter's day) and played with my doggy whose been a bit neglected. I drank some wine and read The language of letting go that JR recommended. I can see it will help-its a good book.

This morning I went on a horseride for the first time in ages. They made breakfast and all. I am going to go back as I really enjoyed it and hadn't been for years. H would never go with me, even though he knew how to ride - he scared of the horses as one bit him once.

I am going to have a hit at the golf driving range today then have a relaxing spa and facial (home made) tonight (I'll need it after the horseride).

I regret so much I had to go to B, but there really wasn't an option left for me. I am so thin and things were going downhill fast. At least now I'm stabilising and I can concentrate on putting on some weight and getting (mentally) healthy again, without the mental abuse that H is inflicting on me.

I also have to work on selling the house. So sad, but again, no option.

Oh well.
SH

Hi Liz,

I am sorry that you are sad. But you don't have to be that way. I know that sad doesn't begin to cover how you feel. I know you are trying to do better.

Remember that while he is broken, you didn't break him. You may have been broken too, but you have been fixing yourself. There is not any more that you can do than that. You can't fix him ,he has to do that himself.

You are on the right road, I firmly believe you will find happiness. Don't give up on yourself.

SS

I week, no contact, not surprised. Busy weekend planned - facial, exhibition and diving. No time to think about him anyway.

I am starting to think about why I am hanging onto the R. I'm trying to sort it in my head. No doubt, I do love him, but if he dosen't love me and treats me this way, then what am I doing????

Only time will tell now...

Its amazing the number of women you meet that have been through this, know the pain but have survived and now have better R's. Everyone tells me I'm lovely and that there would be many men who would be with me. I just wonder if they will meet my expectations?

Anyway, this is jumping too far ahead. Babysteps, that's what its about.

{{Seahorse}}

You are doing just great!! I knew you would. the first few weeks of Plan B are the hardest. But after awhile it becomes a relief not to wait for an interraction. believe me I know it is hard. But also believe that it will get easier. Remember you are doing this to protect yourself and to protect the love you still have left for your H.

In reading over your posts before going into Plan B it makes me so angry to see the pain and suffering your H is putting you through. He was breaking you and making you doubt yourself and your strenght. Don't you ever believe it for a minute. Look at how far you have come since January. Ilove how you listed all the changes you have accomplished. It was wonderful to see. You can thank yourself for having the courage enough to do that and thank your H for screwing up so much it led you to metamorphasize into an even more beautiful woman! I am so proud of you and admire your courage and strength. I wish I had it to go a little further but my H gives me even less to go on than yours gives you.

Give plan B some time. You did an awesome plan A so this transition should be easier. The whole point is to protect you. Don't doubt yourself or your decisions. You have done everything right. Not many women could ever be half as strong and loving as you have been throughout this ordeal. Your strength will continue to gro as mine has.

You wonder as you take your babysteps if there ever will be anyone out there to meet you high expectations? Give the men out there some credit. You H was a wonderful compatable man for the happy years you had together but in the amount of time that has gone by and the amount of spiritual, emotional and intellectual growth you have gone through leaves your H in the dust. I have come to the realization that my H has issues of his own that he needs to acknowledge and resolve and he no longer is compatable with who i have become. As I said in my own post. I would rather start over with someone new who is a higher caliber of man than try to work through this with my H and put the resentment behind me. I am having a very difficult time wraping my brain around the fact my H has been living 24/7 with another woman for the past 10 months under the initial guise that they were just friends. He has been gone since the end of May, we are in plan B. He has sent me 1 e-mail about my horse and I am seeing lawyer #1 out of 6 tomorrow.
So hang in there sweetheart. I hope you do not end up like me. But my concern is that you don't beat yourself up too badly. You are a beautiful woman who should not have to spend one single day being sad. You deserve the most happiness anyone could have. It hurts me when I read your sad posts. I wish I could come see you and take your mind off it all. Someday I promise I will.
Love,
Forgiver

Good, ah, good......
I can never remember if it is today, tomorrow, or yesterday with you. Lets start over.

Greetings Seahorse,

I'm trying to think of some way to encourage you but perhaps you don't really need much now. You seem to be pretty even, but then, even when you have reported it that way, you have sometimes been down. If you are down, take comfort that we care. If you are up, laugh at me, I am having a hard time getting my fingers to type anything today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

If you really are finished, quit, but if not, just keep on with those baby steps.

I have not heard you speak of prayer lately. Hope you have not given up on it. He is still there, working on your behaf, I promise.

How is the house going? How is your Dad? Did you get through the problems at work?

Let me tell you a story - I lived in the same neighborhood for about 18 years when I grew up. A short time ago I visited one of the neighbors whose family are still good friends. He wanted to tell me a story. Paul was a pretty good man, but he worried if he was right with God. He said one day as he sat in his chair, he felt a hand on his shoulder. He looked up and there was no one there, but he could still feel the hand. He said he heard a voice, it was his brother ( brother had been dead for about a year.) Brothers voice said " don't worry Paul, just keep on doing what you are doing, you will be OK.

I had a very strong feeling he was telling the truth, that it really happened. I believe you will see your Mum someday, and it will be a happy time. I hope I don't make you cry. I am trying to help.

I say again, you will make it, I have faith in you. keep your head up.

See ya,
SS

[ July 19, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hello SS and Forgiver, I have been very busy this weekend. I have been for a facial (at a student clinic so it was cheap!), shopping, and then went for a dive this morning. I am now exhausted, because I did lots of cleaning and mowing lawns in between, and as I am the only one here to do it, its a lot.

I am in day 10 of plan B and doing lots of thinking as usual. My thinking is now - why am I hanging on? Its not that I do not love him now, its just that I am hanging on to someone who obviously has little respect and feeling for me, even though he says he loves me. I wonder if I should just allow my feelings for him to die now, along with all my dreams and hopes we had for the future.

I wish he would walk though the door now and say he's ready to work on our marriage, but I don't believe it will happen. Things he has said, done, I think he just wants out really, he's to afraid to say it and look like the 'bad person'. Today I even thought about Dv for a moment. But I have put that on the backburner for a little while yet.

Our house has doubled in price, so we should get a nice sum from it. Unfortunately I will not be back in the Sydney property market for a while on my wage, I'll have to work on that. I will not put it on the market for a little time yet - I'm taking it slow, partly to see if H will come back, partly because I'm too busy having fun.

I sorted my work problems, they're ongoing but its (again) about boundaries. I actually got regraded, which will mean I get a small raise, couldn't have come at a better time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

My dad has finally booked his ticket to Scotland. He leaves on the 30th July, not long. I may be in his house when he returns in Sept, who knows?

I am going now, I'm very tired and want to rest.

I am still praying SS and have regular conversations with God about this situation and other things too. I remember to thank him for getting me through and thanks to all you lot too! I know mum's up there too.

Bye

Hello, feeling low today, mainly I think because I'm worn out from the weekend and my defences are slow.

I have cried today. I don't think H will come back. If he did want our M wouldn't he be back by now?

It makes me really sad, and I'm scared to have any R again. It really scares me. I'm having a little confidence crises. It should pass. I hope so.

Dad is booked to go to Scotland next week. I am worrying already about him.

Babysteps, got to remember babysteps...

It feels bad, doesn't it? One wants to talk with him, touch him, connect with him so much. <sigh>

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
Hello, feeling low today, mainly I think because I'm worn out from the weekend and my defences are slow.

I have cried today. I don't think H will come back. If he did want our M wouldn't he be back by now?

It makes me really sad, and I'm scared to have any R again. It really scares me. I'm having a little confidence crises. It should pass. I hope so.

Dad is booked to go to Scotland next week. I am worrying already about him.

Babysteps, got to remember babysteps...<hr /></blockquote>Get to focus ... focus on plan B and let everything else run it own course. Interference may bring back WS but may never bring fullfiling M down the road.

Have a nice trip to Scotland ... beleive it or not there are several MBer out there too. A is race blind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

-RH-

Seahorse!

Hang in there! Redhat is right. Focus. You have to get your focus back. Keep living for yourself and do not waste any time, tears or energy on your H for just one day. I know it is really, really hard. But Plan B is supposed to preserve your love for your H and PROTECT you! By going over the "what if's..." you are hurting yourself and affecting the deposits in your LB. Which in one way will help you let go but on the other hand if you are not ready to start letting go, this pondering can really screw you up.

I know you are hurting, we all know and we want to take the pain away. But we don't know how and I guess it has to subside on it's own.

I believe in Plan A making me a stronger person who was ready to do whatever work necessary to save my M. I was CONVINCED my M would be saved and be better than before. I was not prepared for any other scenerio. Well, I have had to come to grip with reality and it has been very difficult. But in realizing that I can no longer take my H back because the task of rebuilding is too great after being hurt and neglected for far too long- I have begun to let Plan B take its course. To me my h died. The man I married is not the man who came home. I know it is the fog and he is completely derranged but I do not know who is is and it would be like starting over with a stranger at this point.

I'd rather take my chances starting over with a complete stranger rather than my H who has been insane for over a year. I am not a doctor and can not treat him for his mental illness he so obviously suffers from. The only thing that scares me now is when he does come back- I know some day he will- may be 2 years, maybe 5 or 10- how will I handle it.

Seahorse you have to live for you. You have been doing such an excellent job. But you really have to watch out for yourself and take care of yourself. You will have down days. I was hoping you would have less than you already have. I feel so sorry for you. I think because I had such limited contact with my H (8 e-mails, 5 phone calls and 11 days together in 1 year)it was easier for me to let go. With you and everyone else, you would see your H from time to time and talk to them on the phone. I see it now as prolonged torture. I'm glad I had the limited contact, it helped me grieve without having as many relapses.

Keep fighting Seahorse! Help your Dad plan his trip to Scotland (My roots are there!) Keep diverting your attention and energy. Join a cooking class or start another activity. Bellydancing has been over for awhile. You need a new project. Give me sometime I'll think of ideas. Did you get your permit yet? Go shopping for a motorcycle just for fun. Take some on some test drives!! That would be a fun day!
Take care!
Forgiver

Hey Seahorse!

Just checking in to see how you are doing. Hopefully you are having more up days. Your last post was kinda down. Did your Dad leave for Scotland yet? How is your house situation coming? Post a note when you can to let me know you are OK or how you are. I worry about you.
Love,
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver, just plodding on really. I have been very down, now I'm just angry! I don't like the anger much, however I've learn that its a signal business I need to attend to.

There has been no contact with H.

There has been no movement with the house (my decision - taking it slow).

Dad's ready to fly out next Tuesday. I arranged a 'meet and assist' for him - they basically hold his hand through the airport - so he won't get lost anywhere!! I worry a lot - he's 76, he hasn't travelled in 50 years and he was saying 'I'm not sure about this, I'm worried', which worried me - therefore the 'meet and assist'. Once he's there he has 4 sisters and a brother (that he hasn't seen since he left Scotland) so he will be pampered - I won't worry then, only that he may not come home again!!

Well, I'm off to see friends this weekend who have promised a movie and pizza - I'm looking forward to this simple, relaxing pleasure.

I've booked my holiday in Vanuatu in September. I feel a little guilty as our finances are still joint, but then I remind myself that he will get his fair share soon, and he's no slouch at spending money right now either. So I turn my back on that guilt trip.

The woman at the dive shop told me that out of 10 of us going 8 are males and there are eligible ones going. Although it will be nice to have some male company (as friends), the thought of a new relationship any time soon strikes fear in my heart!

I'm sticking to the diving, the cocktails and lying in the sun.

Hi Liz - sorry I haven't been around much lately, but i think of you often. A big ditto on your rationale for spending joint money. If you don't, he will. Have a great time!!

Dave

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Forgiver:
.... The only thing that scares me now is when he does come back- I know some day he will- may be 2 years, maybe 5 or 10- how will I handle it.<hr /></blockquote>When he regret his action ... you might have been taken ... I hope you are not waiting that long ... you become irristable mate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . For me I know that I would not even give her a chance to apologize (she could find HIM for forgivenes) ... I will be in plan C; move on, never look back & NC forever.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SeaHorse:
.... The woman at the dive shop told me that out of 10 of us going 8 are males and there are eligible ones going. Although it will be nice to have some male company (as friends), the thought of a new relationship any time soon strikes fear in my heart!<hr /></blockquote>You should for now ... I am pretty sure there are many advances from males for both you & Forgiver ... but finish this one first before starting a new one. Have any dive pictures that you could contibute to MB Album ?. WAT have one while snorkeling ... -RH-

Hi everyone, I wasn't going to post today, but I think I need to vent. I am still struggling a bit, but I'm feeling generally better. I'm trying to forget the H of the past and remember that there is a new H in town and I have no loyalty or love for that person. I'm having bad dreams about it. I think my mind is playing out my worst fears - they wake me up at night.

I'm off to the Airport with dad soon, then I get the rest of the day to relax and I start my Bellydancing again tonight - I always enjoy that.

Work is so so. I'm still working hard with that one. There are a few people there who don't like to take 'no' for an answer and now that I'm standing up for myself I'm apparently 'snappy'. But its just a smoke screen and I won't back down on my rights.

I am starting to think more about my trip only 5 weeks now. I'm going to concentrate on that, and getting more quotes for the house.

Hi Liz,

If you think about it a little bit, there is no reason to hurry. Some days you think it is done, some days you wish he was back. You know it is recommended that there be at least a year after one relationship is over before another is begun. If you follow that recomdation, you have lots of time. Just float for a while, you don't need to swim like you have a place to be right away.

You know there will still be lots of bad days. All the hurt and anger won't just go away now that you are in plan B. He has really done a terrible thing, it does hurt. Some hurts take time to heal.

So, let plan B run it's course for a while, don't be in a hurry. You can't make him come back, and if it is over, you can't force healing to go any faster. You need the time either way.

I can see you are a lot of help to others here, keep it up. You have a lot of strength to share and I am glad you are willing to share it.

SS

Hi all, Yes SS I am moving slow. No deadlines, no need to rush. some dyas I am up (like yesterday) other I'm down (like today). Some days I want it all over with, others I don't know what I want. I just try to persevere through it all.

Today I was wishing so hard he would call, but this is what I asked for.

Up, down, up, down. God give me some peace.

BTW SS thank you. I am trying to help others, I don't know I always do, but they can choose to ignore what dosen't work.

I am having a busy week this week -will be meeting my diving buddies (for my holiday) on Thursday, then doing a telephone counselling shift on Friday night and horseriding on Sunday!!! YAY!!!

Just pushing on, trying, trying to let go as best I can

Hey Seahorse!

I've been thinking of you alot and hoping you are doing OK. I know this is hard. You have to give yourself time to heal. Believe me it gets easier. You start to remember things and notice situations in your relationship, with a new perspective. i guess it is that whole hindsight thing. In the beginning I thought we had the best relationship int he world, and in some respects we wdid. Now with the seperation, I notice things that were lacking or were just not right. That takes some time to settle in as well. But it gives you strength and the realization that Plan B is a good thing and it takes some time to work and heal. hang in there.

I have been thinking about you alot because a friend of mine is Down Under right now. He flew to Sydney and them went tright to Cairns. He is taking something called the OZ Bus down the coast back to Sydney. He is traveling alona and having a fantastic time. He wrote to tell me he has gone diving in the Great Barrier Reef, explored the Daintree National Rainforestand Cape Tribulation. He sailed on a boat for three days around the Whitsunday Islands and Airlie Beach. He was going on a bus to Dingo where he will spend some time on a cattle ranch and overnight horseback riding into the back country. After that he is not sure what he will do. He is just traveling down the coast and then once in Sydney , he will fly to New Zealand for more adventure. It sounds absolutely amazing. He said the weather and the people are beautiful. He is having an unbelieveable time. I wish I could have gone with him. I made him promise to scope out all the great things to do so when I go he can tell me where to go. Imust come and see you. Maybe next summer. He will be returning in early September from New Zealand. He has no real plans while in Oz so if you have any suggestions he has the time. He is very adventurous and outgoing so anything goes. I can't understand traveling alone but he does it all the time. He did say this would be his last solo trip since he really would rather share the experience with friends in person rather thatn retell stories. It does not do the trip justice. He was in the Galapagos islands for three weeks in July alone and now Australia and onto New Zealand. What a life! He is between jobs right now so he has this tiem for himself. He really took advantage of the situation!

Let me know if there is something he should do. Like I said, is Tuesday for me and he said he was going to Dingo to go to the ranch. I know you are a day ahead-right? Think of places along the coast he could go to and let me know!
This is a little project for you to do to keep you busy! THanks for your help!
Hang in there and know I'm right with you!
Forgiver

OK, Forgiver, if he's coming down the coast from Cairns there is lots to do and see. He's GOT to stop in Byron Bay when he gets to NSW. Its not far from the Qld Border and its where all the hippies live - there's also a place called Nimbin which is a real eye opener - if you're into Marijuana you will have a lovely time, but you don't have to do that, everyone's just who they are there - its all very relaxed, but then most of Oz is.

Byron is beginning to become commercial but it still has that charm. Some people sunbake nude and are very 'free', so if he's single he'll enjoy it. You can also grab great surfing and diving all along the coast - from Noosa to Sydney you can't go wrong really.

If he's in to diving then there are some great dives around there (so I'm told).

The Daintree (where he has been) is just beautiful. It is where the rainforest meets the reef. When you fly over it its green and lush, to sand, to green (of the water) to blue - its absolutely the most breathtaking site you will see (other than Victoria falls in Zimbabwe)

As he gets closer to Sydney there's Coff Harbour - more great surfing and diving.

Hmmm, there's also heaps of National Parks and things, I think you said he was into Rock Climbing and Hiking, so that should keep him busy.

Anyway, I'll look in my books at home and post again.

Starting at Cairns though, that's a hard act to follow, except when he gets to Sydney of course, its the most beautiful Harbour in the world, but then, I'm biased. Hey, we even had whales in it last week, what more can you ask for?

When he gets to Sydney he should climb the Harbour Bridge. I did that the day before D-day. I took dad and H, we had a great time and the view is fantastic. It costs about $150Aus to do, but its worth it.

You can also get a Harley ride from Sydney to the Blue Mountains, I really want to do that one day because its a really nice drive to the mountains and on a Harley it would be fantastic (especially as now we are heading into Spring and the days are just gorgeous).

We also have snow at the snow fields, but coming from the US, he may be disappointed - we only have a 1.5mtr base of snow and we're not really a 'snowy' country.

I'll be back with more.

[ August 06, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Dear Seahorse and Forgiver,
just to let you know - I keep following your journeys while I deal with my own- you are an inspiration - and a great reminder - that there is life beyond D-days, WSs A's, Plan As and Bs.

It is really next to impossible to remember there is actual life in the universe other than own troubled R. At least it seems so to myself.

Thanks,
FBOW

Hi FBOW, please do not feel you are not alone. I am struggling very much with plan B right now. I am having trouble dealing with no contact and the fact that H has not contacted me (even though thats what I asked for), but still I know that to survive this I have to look for other places to find happiness - my H was my happiness before D-day - a big mistake, but this has been part of my lesson.

Thank you for your kind words.

Now the lesson continues and I'm trying to learn it well this time so I don't have to do it again.

******
Forgiver - if your friend heads down the coast to Coffs Harbour (New South Wales) these is sea kyaking and white water rafting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

try this link for more info http://www.visitcoffsharbour.com/liquidassets/index.html - Coffs is about 6 hours drive north of Sydney.

BTW I didn't notice you said he was on a rance horseriding - fantastic, those guys out there are 'true blue'. Wow, would love to do that one day - sorry, WILL do that one day.

This link has stuff about byron bay - http://www.byron-bay.com/byronbay/index.html
Actually its a great place to dive as its Australia's most easterly point and also a place where the warm and cooler waters meet so there's a big mix of different fishes and things (lots of sharks too BTW). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, looking through the 'things to do' guide makes me want to go back there!! I loved the place!!

There's so many places he could stop - gosh theres' also heaps in Queensland.

Around Sydney - I've mentioned the bridgeclimb and the harley ride - the Blue Mountains is definiately a place he should visit - very beautiful and you can easily get there by public transport. About an hour west of Sydney

In Sydney - Bondi Beach - a MUST for any visitor. (Join all the POHMS on the beach- joke, we love the Brits!). Catch the Ferry to Manly Beach, Opera House, Sydney Tower, Darling Harbour.

He's got to visit some pubs while he's here, especially around 'The Rocks' - this is one of the first business ports in Sydney was and has a very violent and interesting history.

Let me think of some other things...

Seahorse!!

YOU ROCK!! Thank you so much for all the awesome suggestions. I will e-mail them to my friend. I do not know when or if he will get the suggestions but it gives me something to do and I hope it gave you something to do as well. Keeps us occupied in plan B.

Hold on girl. It is going to be tough but we can get through it. We asked for this granted, but doesn't it tell us alot while we are doing it? My sister was telling me that this whole plan B thing just gives my H justification for no contact. She said he isn't treating me any differently that he did since he left for school. She said if he really wanted to work things out or if he was going to come back he would break the plan B agreement of no contact and done something about the situation at this point. In her eyes he is never coming back and this plan B thing just makes it easier on him. He can tell his mom he can't communicate with me because i asked him not to. So it is my fault. I am forcing him to be this way.
In any case even if he did communicate, I'm done at this point. I have been researching my next step for weeks. My in-laws go down to visit him next week. Surprise, surprise, he and his siter are staying in a friends apt. while his parents are sleping in his apt in THEIR BED!!! His mom said she would never stay there, and look what is happening. It sickens me. But that is their problem. I am almost free from him and I am so happy for the first time in a long time.

My friends trip occupies a few minutes of my time every once in awhile. So you giving me suggestions helps me rewrite them and e-mail for a few hours. As you know you can blow several hours being on'line!
Keep the suggestions coming I really appreciate them!
Forgiver

PS Is there spell check on MB? I know I always make so many mistakes and I never reread my posts so I must look like an ignorant fool with all my spelling and grammar mistakes.

[ August 07, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Forgiver ]

I think Seahorse is really strong to go into plan B when she did. I am weak that way; I hang around too long until he loses all respect for me.

Thanks again Seahorse! You are the best!

{{{Relate}}}

You have to have respect for yourself. You have to work on yourself and refuse to let your spouse bring you down.

Seahorse and I dove head first into making ourselves better people. We have sought out activities that fulfill us and still can't figure out why we didn't do them before. We are discovering ourselves getting stronger and building up our self esteem and self respect.

You can not wait to get approval from your spouse, you get it from yourself. Discover who you are. Be willing to take risks alone and enjoy what you can do. You do not need someone else. Yes we would all like to share our experiences with someone else but for now we are on our own. And we can be OK on our own.

You do not need their approval, you need to live! Life is precious. I am not sure what your situation is but if you know mine, my H is a cheating fool. Through this process of plan A and now plan B, I have become and even better person than before. It is his loss and my tremendous gain.

Take care of yourself and know there are people here who understand and are willing to help you through your struggles. We have all been there at some point. We are all a different stages but we are helping each other through it.

Seahorse is an excellent role model and guide. Follow her story and follow her lead. We are all in this together in some way or another. We will be here for you. You can do it.
Forgiver

Thanks Forgiver. I am not married now. But this is something I've generally done at the end of all 3 of my relationships, one ending being quite recent. I crash big time. MB principals is a good way to repair *or* end a troubled relationship. I guess I'm here to train myself for the future.

Hey, Seahorse and Forgiver,

I was directed your way by relate and Redhat from the Plan A/Plan B board. Reading your threads have brought tears to my eyes. How did you muster the strength to move on? I had no contact with my H for 3 days and it broke when H sent me a 3 page letter saying he wanted the marriage and would do counseling. Well, now we're hot and heavy into our R again (married, but living apart still) and we're back into our ruts. He has only gone to counseling once in the past 3 months.

My whole world revolves around my H (and all other men that have been in my life over the years). When my H isn't around it's hard to drag my butt off the couch. It's as though my very breath comes from him.

He acts like nothing is wrong and I obsess each and every waking moment reliving every other women who he has been in contact with over the past 3 years (even before we were married). These women I'm sure have moved on and my H seems to float through life, but I'm so stuck in the muck!

God bless you both!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ August 11, 2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]

Wait a minute! I am the exact opposite of what F2 describes. I have many things going in my life.

Sorry relate... I misread your post! When you said you crash at the end of a relationship I thought that meant you didn't have energy to do anything, etc.. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey Seahorse!

How are you doing? Please check back and let us know. Is your Dad back from scotland yet? What plans have you confirmed for your upcoming trip? I'd love to know what/how you are doing. Haven't heard from my friend about all the suggestions you made. Hopefully he didn't get eaten by a shark or lost in the bush.

I have been the social butterfly. going out last weekend and having a house full this past weekend. I am busy planning the last party of the summer for this upcoming weekend. the longest guestlist thus far. It was very funny this past weekend I only had 8 party guests. We danced the night away on my back deck. By about midnight everyone was exhausted. Five of the 8 people headed for bed. Two went for a walk on the beach which left my brother alone in the livingroom listening to music. At that time the police showed up to say they had gotten three complaints about a loud. wild party with people out of control. Imagine that! There was no such thing. Loud music yeah but no need for the riot gear. When my brother answered the door the cops were shocked. My brother turned down the music and said "Sorry, is that better?" The police laughed and left. I can't believe they were called. Next weekend I'll be sure to invite my neighbors because next weekend will be loud I'm sure. It was very funny to have my brother all alone getting busted by the police for listening to disco too loud.

Sorry to highjack your thread but it will be quick:
Free2BeMe and Relate
It really touches me that my story can help you out at all. I just have been writing about my own pain and how I have tried to deal with it. I know how it is to have your life revolve around someone. Like the Stevie Nicks song goes.. "I've built my life around you..."

I had to muster the strength to get myself out of my house. Otherwise I would probably lay on the couch and watch TV all day. Don't get me wrong I do that some days. But I thought it was important for me not to waste time aching over something that was completely out of my hands. I realized I could not change my H or force him to work on our M so I chose to channel the energy in a positive way and focus on me. In a way it may have been unhealthy because I was so driven that I did not want to think about my H and what he was doing. I felt helpless and chose to do SOMETHING! Anything to keep my mind off where my life with my H was going. But in choosing the activities I did, I became healthier both physically and mentally.
My situation is also a little different because last April I encouraged my h to follow his dream and go to vet school. So I had to get used to the idea of us being apart for the first time in 12 years. I didn't talk to him everyday. When I found out about the A I had already been living on my own for awhile. In your situations, I think your H's were still around which would be torturous I understand.

So I am glad if I can help you in anyway. It just amazes me how my story can be of any use to anyone. If anything it just helps me to sort through this by sharing. Thanks for reading and noticing.

Forgiver

Good to see Forgiver check in, I hope Seahorse is at least haveing a good day. I tell myself you gals are doing pretty good and I don't need to worry about you, but as I have said, I still worry.

Seahorse, I see you are busy helping others and that is good. Your vacation is getting closer, hope you have a great time, not just a good time.

We wonder what's up with the home, and with your dad. You seemed to say once he might not come back. Were you serious?

We also wonder what's up with you - we kind of know what is going on outside, we wonder about inside. ( You too forgiver)

Don't be a stranger.

SS

Hi Guys, at work, have to be brief.

My trip is in three weeks. I will fly to Port Vila Vanuatu then we take a boat to Tranquility Island, which is very basic and have a few dives there. Then we fly to Espiritu Santo and do some dives there, including the President Collidge which is aparently amazing.

I am one of three women in a group of twelve <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The three girls are sharing a room and I'm looking forward to lots of fun and alcohol (but not too much as I'm diving and also I'll end up crying all night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) ) It will be nice to have some male company (as friends).

Well SS, inside is being sorted. I'm experiencing a lot of anger right now - at H, at the world, at plan B, at myself, at everyone. I think my marriage is over. I'm already thinking as a single woman who just finished a relationship. I'm thinking about what my dog and me will do now. The house will go on the market when I return from holidays - facing another fear.

Dad is in Scotland. He's good obviously as we haven't heard from him since I rang to make sure he was there. He'll be back SS, once it turns cold, he'll be back.

My brother and sister have been contacting me a lot. I have a sneaking suscpicion my dad's asked them to look after me, which is nice.

I do get a bit lonely at times. I am trying to develop more friendships to combat this. I can see I've come so far and yet I feel I still have so far to go. I've sorted things at work (I had a fight with my boss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) but I think it will all work out in the end. I'm looking at what courses I can do to improve my promotional chances here.

I think about my H everyday, I seem to feel differently about the whole situation every day - its madness.

Forgiver, I'm sure your friend is fine, he may be somewhere remote and can't get to a computer. Either that or he's having too much fun - good for him. In Oz we'd say he gone 'walkabout' - the Aborigines apparently do this, they just disappear for a while, not to be seen or heard of then just turn up again. I don't know all that much about it, but presume its like a 'time out' thing. God knows I feel like doing that sometimes.

Anyway much go, I did say I'd be brief, didn't I. Oh well.

Seahorse,

I think you are very strong. I like the way you make firm decisions and stick to them. You should channel some of this experience, self decipline, and energy into your work and you should have a promotion in no time.

Australia sounds like and amazing place. I like the idea of disappearing into the winderness for escape for some time. I hope you come out refreshed and happy.

Relate

Hello Relate, thank you. sometimes I don't feel so strong. I love Australia. I love to travel and see other places, but Australia is my home.

Forgiver, had to put this link for you to check out.

http://www.pubcrawlsonhorseback.com.au/index.asp

Guys, I'm gonna do this. What a mad thing, only in Australia!!

Yo Lizzie - will you have a Vic Bitter for me?

Dave

I am one of three women in a group of twelve The three girls are sharing a room and I'm looking forward to lots of fun and alcohol (but not too much as I'm diving and also I'll end up crying all night ) ) It will be nice to have some male company (as friends).

I hope you have a really great time, and believe you will.

Well SS, inside is being sorted. I'm experiencing a lot of anger right now - at H, at the world, at plan B, at myself, at everyone. I think my marriage is over. I'm already thinking as a single woman who just finished a relationship. I'm thinking about what my dog and me will do now.

I started reading on MB about the time you started posting. I have watched you ride the roller coaster and it hurts to see the pain you have experienced. While I realize that we can stand much more hurt than we think we can, I wish you could be spared. I still believe you will come out of this a much improved person, but that doesn't make the pain go away right now. It's still hard to say if your marriage is over. You know from being here and reading that sometimes after everyone has given up, it comes back together again. There is however only so much you can take, you should watch yourself ( and we will help) and not go too far into the anger that you can't find your way back to love someday.

I hope those nights that you cry all night you will come here and get some help. I am glad your brother and sister call you, they love you and so does your Dad. I suspect your Mum is keeping track of you and does what she can also. You probably feel that this is so.

I've sorted things at work (I had a fight with my boss ) but I think it will all work out in the end. I'm looking at what courses I can do to improve my promotional chances here.

Your taker has been abused badly the last year. I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with things at work. Do you ever find yourself thinking " I am not going to take this anymore" It would be natural with all that has happened. I have found that what we learn here applies to every thing we do, and all of our relationships. You can find solutions at work in "HNHN" and "Love Busters" I'm not saying it is your fault there, but you would tend to have all your life relationships affected by what has happened to you. What you have learned can serve you well in making progress with your boss, and in all other relationships. We have love banks with everyone, or friendship banks if you will. We can learn to make deposits there and have good relationships with almost everyone if we avoid LB's and build up deposits in their banks.

I think about my H everyday, I seem to feel differently about the whole situation every day - its madness.

God loves you very much, I believe he sent me to talk to you today to show you that. I feel to tell you that he loves you and is helping you, even if it seems as things are going very slowly. Our emotions are given for our happiness and benefit. There will be a time when these same emotions that are causing you so much pain will cause much joy. Please have a little faith. If you make correct choices now, God will bless you with happiness. Blessings and happiness follow correct choices as Day follows night. ( I admit, sometimes it takes a while, but it comes.) Just be careful and do what you know to be right.

Thanks for the update, I feel that someday we will all meet in a much better place than this and thank each other. I will thank you for being such a good example. I know you don't feel strong often, but we see strength when we look into your heart. We have faith in you even when you do not. Give us a little credit for having correct judgment in your case. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My only suggestion for you today is that you find a way to pray every morning before you leave your bedroom, and every night before you go to sleep. There really is someone on the other end listening. The better you know him, the easier it gets. Ideas will come into your mind from him about what to do. Learn to recognize them and act on them and it will get easier still. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, I hope this helps at least a little bit.

SS

[ August 16, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

WAT - I don't drink beer! I'm going for the horses and the port!! I'll give the horse a VB for you!

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Do you ever find yourself thinking " I am not going to take this anymore" <hr /></blockquote>Yes - with just about every poor bugger that approaches me, I'm ashamed to say.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You can find solutions at work in "HNHN" and "Love Busters" I'm not saying it is your fault there, but you would tend to have all your life relationships affected by what has happened to you. What you have learned can serve you well in making progress with your boss, and in all other relationships. We have love banks with everyone, or friendship banks if you will. We can learn to make deposits there and have good relationships with almost everyone if we avoid LB's and build up deposits in their banks. <hr /></blockquote>Yes I think my boss and I can both learn from each other. I'm trying to set boundaries and become more assertive (but maybe being a bit overzealous). She thinks I am already assertive and that I am going to far - yes I am probably, but I think she is put out that I'm not the yes person any more. I can't be the yes person right now- there is too much in my basket and I can't carry any more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> God loves you very much, I believe he sent me to talk to you today to show you that. <hr /></blockquote>Thank you SS, I very much appreciate the support I receive at this site. I can be very human and candid here. People here know that what i write one day may not be how I feel the next or may just be venting or silliness.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Our emotions are given for our happiness and benefit. There will be a time when these same emotions that are causing you so much pain will cause much joy. <hr /></blockquote>I have faith this is true, but i don't understand it completely.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My only suggestion for you today is that you find a way to pray every morning before you leave your bedroom, and every night before you go to sleep. <hr /></blockquote>I talk to God quite a lot of the day these days. I continue to ask for help.

Thank you for replying about my anniversary next week.

So my update: There is nothing regarding my H

I am still so very angry. I am getting very concerned about it and plan to speak to my counsellor about it this week. It scares me.

My holiday is in just over two weeks!! I have no wetsuit yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Doing the usual - yoga, bellydance, getting a facial, having lunch with friends, shopping, playing with the doggy, work work work.

I am feeling within myself that a new life is coming for me i daydream about it and I am getting restless to go and start living it. Its not about leaving my H - I still want to try but know it will be a very long road to travel. No, my new life is about fullfilling my purpose.

Hi Liz,

Doing the usual - yoga, bellydance, getting a facial, having lunch with friends, shopping, playing with the doggy, work work work.

Well, I do play with my dog, and am very familier with the work, work, work, but you lead a much more exciting life than I. Good for you.

You don't say if you still cry often, perhaps you no longer need to. I still believe you will make it through and do very well. Please don't shake your head no when we say that, have some faith in our judgement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am happy you are willing to help others, you have a lot to give. Thank you for your good example. I hope you have one very nice thing happen to you in the next 24 hours to make you really, really happy, believe you will. You deserve to have a big smile on your face for awhile.

SS

When you said you ride horses, did you mean land horses or sea horses? <grin>

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You don't say if you still cry often, perhaps you no longer need to. <hr /></blockquote>I still cry a lot, lately even more so. I am very depressed, fighting it, but depressed. The place I fighted so long not to be, well I'm here and I don't like it. I'm very angry too and fed up.

I do my best SS (re giving to others). working on the counselling phones can be therapeutic. I did it last time I was depressed and it helped a lot. It can make you realise that others have it a lot worse.

My H has contacted me today via email-mostly re house and wants me to send him a cheque, nothing much else, just a 'take care' at the end. I replied with all details I needed to and 'We (referring to dog and me) miss you very much, lots of love'. Maybe this is not the plan B thing to do, but I really do not care too much about plan B anymore. Its too painful living like this.

I may suggest to him that we go back to 'just friends' I just can't live without him, so if it has to be friends, then so be it.

I'm going to try to contact Harley's via their raido program again tomorrow morning, and see if I can get some advice. I'm quite desperate. Its seems I can live with him or without him.

I've got just over a week to my holiday. I am looking forward to not thinking anymore. I'm looking forward to warmer weather, hopefully that will lift my spirits and get me through my next stage of this horrible mess.

Seahorse -- I haven't checked my other thread yet today where I usually get your update.

Has your WH responded to your email you sent?

I am thinking of you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
[QUOTE] [b]I just can't live without him<hr /></blockquote>Yes you can, Liz. You can SOAR!!

I will not repeat my lecture to you about antidepressants, but I thought about it.

I remember feeling the same way you do. Set your mind to it and it will get better. I promise.

Dave

You are probably reacting to his email contact. I guess the contact would have the same effect on you trying to plan B as it would have on a WS trying to break with the OP.

Actually I've reacted this way before he contacted me. I really believe I am in plan B for the wrong reason.

WAT maybe I can live without him, but my heart says I don't want to. THe aim here is to get my marriage back. That's why I came to this website and have stuck by it so long. This is the only place that people actually support me in my efforts to save my marriage, I hope that will not change.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will not repeat my lecture to you about antidepressants, <hr /></blockquote>Good!

So far plan B is not working for ME, I will keep you updated on what action I decide to take from here.

[ August 26, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

The other options are, ofcourse, the "modified plan B" approach successfully applied by going-crazy in GQII, and the 180 degrees approach applied by lotsva.

{{{{{SEAHORSE}}}}}}

Know that I am always thinking of you and praying for you. I look to you for my strength and guidance. You have inspired me so much to keep going no matter what tomorrow brings. I wish I was as eloquent as the rest and could say the words to put your mind at ease and your soul to rest. But I am at a loss. I was hoping to come here and find you with a new hobby that could inspire me to go out and think of something wild to try to keep my mind off my H and M. Any ideas?

What else have you been up to? How are your precious Dad and dog? Back from Scotland yet?

Thank you for the awesome ideas for down under. I LOVED the pubcrawl on horseback idea. I do not know if my friend got the e-mails or not. By now he is in New Zealand doing who knows what. I think I will be saving for a trip to OZ next summer. I would really like to ....but I have to see what I can do. It looks as though I may have to spring for a lawyer first.

I am doing well on my own in Plan B. Keeping busy and spending lots of time with family and friends. I have not been kickboxing this summer but my active lifestyle has ket my body toned. I will take up the personal trainer and kickboxing come September when I am back in school. I believe my next activity will be to take private dressage lessons. Since my horse died I have not been riding. I was around horses for the first time this weekend (my friend bought a farm). I missed the smells and the activity. It was bittersweet. But it is something I love and I have to get back into it slowly.

I will be checking in more regularly now that I will be back to work and on more of a schedule. The summer flew by. It is time to make plans for the fall. I will kepp you posted of my next move. I believe it will be to break it gently to my MIL of my intentions and then to retain a lawyer. I have three more appointments, making my total of lawyers interviewed 6. So far 2 said I will have to give up the house one said I could keep it. The odds are not good. If I lose my house the anger and revenge may rear it's ugly head and I don't want that to happen. So we will see.
Take Care!
Forgiver

Seahorse -- I know you've been miserable in plan B. If you are going to shift into something else, how do you plan to do it? What do you imagine it will look like? Do you think you can be in contact with him without his hurting you more/causing you to lose love for him?

These are just my questions. I think you are the only one that knows deep in your heart and soul what you are and are not ready for with regard to your WH. I know that I am too afraid to go to plan B. There is still too much love there. I do have to caution you though that it is still very difficult and almost every interaction leaves me with an ache in my heart. It is very hard (as you know) to watch someone you love make such bad choices and basically harm themselves -- and I am referring not just to the A, but the other choices they are making.

Has your WH responded to your last email and what exactly did he say? Is there something that is giving you hope?

Can you tell us more about why you would like to go out of plan B? Did you feel like you were making progress and maybe you cut off ties too soon? Do you feel as if your lovebank is still full enough?

Please let us know what you are thinking. We're here for you and we do support you trying to save your M. I know that the "outside" world can sometimes get you down in this regard. My boss keeps telling me to "move on with my life", "cut my losses", etc. It's difficult to explain to others how and why we believe it's worth trying.

Peace.

Hi Liz,

I wish I could always say the right thing in every case but I don't always get it right. I had better try the best I can.

As we watch what happens to others that journey here with us, we can see that things sometimes work out, sometimes not. I have just come ( I was gone for 5 days) from visiting a friend ( lives far away from me) who has MS. He may soon be in a wheel chair. He doesn't want to be, but he may have no choice if he wants to go anywhere. We don't know how long he will continue to walk, or how long he will live ( MS usually shortens a normal life span.) He is fighting with all the strength he has, but fight, and strength can't stop the deterioration that is going on in his body. I believe he has prolonged his ability to walk, but I don't believe he can keep walking forever by strength of will.

Now, we don't know what will happen with your marriage - yet. We really don't. I know you have a lot of pain, and plan B gives you no feedback on what is happening. I believe what you meant about plan B not working is that you can no longer do anything directly to affect your marriage. In plan A you were also in pain but at least you could see him, try things, and revise the plan and try something else if that did not work. Now you can only wait. You still have all those feelings for him, still want to see him, hold him, talk to him. You are thinking that if you can do those things again, it may make a difference.

I think you should be careful. You are using a tool crafted by someone that is very good at what he does ( DR Harley). I would agree with you that everyone is different, that it may not work for your H. I know you want to go back to something "hands on." Unshureheart asked some very good questions.

1. If you are going to shift into something else, how do you plan to do it?
2. What do you imagine it will look like?
3. Do you think you can be in contact with him without his hurting you more/causing you to lose love for him?
4. Can you tell us more about why you would like to go out of plan B?
5. Did you feel like you were making progress and maybe you cut off ties too soon?
6. Do you feel as if your lovebank is still full enough?

I remind you that plan A does not restore a marriage, neither does plan B. Plan A improves you so that when the A ends you look good to H. Plan B saves your remaining love so that when the A ends you still want to be married and you want to put things back together.

Both plan A and B SOMETIMES cause a spouse to say " wait a minute, I am crazy, I need to go home and make things work." BUT NOT OFTEN. Usually the A just has to end by itself first, and then the spouse comes out of the fog wants to come home.

Liz, I am not sure what you think will happen if you go out of B, except you will feel better.

Please don't get me wrong, I want you to feel better. I am not trying to be hard on you, but I don't know exactly what you are trying to do. From here, it looks like you want more control over what is happening ( as opposed to plan B where you can't do anything.) Thing is, you had no control before. I remember when he left on his trip, you resolved to let him go because " there is nothing I can do anyway.' I think you are still at that point.
He is the one with a problem, he is broken and you can't fix him with will power, he has to want to change.

Please talk to us about what you are feeling, and what you hope to do. I hope you understand that we will try and help no matter what you do. We are not going to cast you adrift. Please remember when you are down and crying, you have lots of friends that know you are the greatest, and that care deeply for you. We stick by you because we care, and believe in you, I hope you know that. I believe if your H knew what we know, he would be there with you right now. I am not sure why the WS's don't seem to get it.

Liz, please let us help. Be careful with your feelings. Don't let them run your life. They are an important part of us, given for our happiness, but please be careful about making decisions based on them. OK?

One more thing - I trust you. I mean, I don't think you would do anything foolish, just wanted to give you some more to think about.
I know it is hard. I recommend prayer before you change anything, I believe you will get help.

SS

Seahorse,

PLAN A is not to get your H back ... it is for you to better yourself.

Plan B is not to get your H back ... it is for you to not get hurt and ready to move on.

By doing plan A the best we can ... we do our 50% part of the bargain.

By doing plan B the best we can ... we wait for our SO the best we can.

Sometime plan A alone will bring WS back out from the fog ...

Sometime plan A and plan B will bring WS back out from the fog ...

When all the above fails ... IT IS UP TO YOU. Pain is given but misery is optional. No one will fault you and no one will judge you if you choose the path of misery ... we will be still here listening and be here for you. I suggest you follow Honey's post ... is that what you want to be ... She is stronger now but she was a mess few months ago. Probably it is what you need to realize and come to aceptance stage in your greiving.

{{{{((((HUG)))}}}}

-RH-

[ August 28, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

I've not done anything yet, but I just can'treply right now. I've hopefully got a phone appt with Steve tomorrow.

Just a quick update. Got a phone appt with Steve tomorrow and hope to resolve something there. I don't want to reply at work, so I will try to get back on tomorrow night.

Seahorse -- I am so glad you got a phone appointment with Steve. I hope he will be able to provide you with guidance that will work for you. I will be thinking of you and hope you post soon. -- unsure

Seahorse,

Do you think you went into plan B too early for the wrong reasons: maybe to make your husband choose you and not because your LB was depleting? However, you have delivered the letter and made this grand gesture now. If you go back you will loose credibility, at least not without a gesture from him. Still love is a stronger force than the need for credibility, respect or pride. At least this is so for me and I have messed up in the past because of it. If you want to do this, best ask a counselor (SH?) how to handle it the right way.

I understand what you mean by wanting to be friends. The sudden void in one's life is difficult to handle; I'd rather grow apart gradually than face it all at once.

Kind regards,
Relate

HI,
Please - if you could- share with me if you benefit for counseling session.
I feel horrible recently, ripe for rush and stupid moves, which I 'd like to avoid.
I think I need outside help - being it counseling or antideptresants or both.

I know I should not think of those needs as failure but I can't help I do and it ruins the rest of self esteem I have ) "she even cannot deal with the issue on her own".

Would be a huge LB to ask my H if I can share my situation with our mutual friend ( she is miles away and don't think is a risk of direct interference?)
Can't help it but I feel soooo alone
FBOW

Forbetterorforworse,

Where is your thread? I was following you. Then I lost you.

Relate

Seahorse -- I know you are feeling down. I thought I would pass along something funny a friend sent to me when I wasn't having the best day.

Dear Tech Support:

Last year I upgraded from Boyfriend 5.0 to Husband 1.0 and noticed a slow down in the performance of the flower and jewelry applications that had operated flawlessly under the Boyfriend 5.0 system.

In addition, Husband 1.0 un-installed many other valuable programs such as Romance 9.9, but installed undesirable programs such as NFL 7.4, NBA 3.2, and NHL 4.1

Conversation 8.0 also no longer runs and Housecleaning 2.6 simply crashes the system. I've tried running Nagging 5.3 to fix these problems but to no avail. What can I do?

Signed,
Desperate

Dear Desperate,

First, keep in mind that Boyfriend 5.0 was an entertainment package, while Husband 1.0 is an operating system.

Try entering the command C:/ I THOUGHT YOU LOVED ME and install Tears 6.2

Husband 1.0 should then automatically run the applications Guilt 3.3 and Flowers 7.5

But remember, overuse can cause Husband 1.0 to default to such background applications as Grumpy Silence 2.5, Happy Hour 7.0, or Beer 6.1. Please remember that Beer 6.1 is a very bad program that will create Snoring Loudly.wav files. Do NOT install Mother-in-Law 1.0 or reinstall another Boyfriend program. These are not supported applications and will crash Husband 1.0. It could also potentially cause Husband 1.0 to default to the program Girlfriend 9.2, which runs in the background and has been to known to introduce potentially serious viruses into the operating system.

In summary, Husband 1.0 is a great program, but it does have a limited memory and can't learn new applications quickly. You might consider buying additional software to enhance his system performance. I personally recommend Hot Food 3.0 and Single Malt Scotch 4.5 combined with such applications as that old stand-by...Lingerie 6.9 (which has been credited with improved performance of his hardware).

Good Luck,
Tech Support

Dear Relate,
it is under FirstTimeHere Firsttimehere

I did not post much there for a while because I felt like such a clueless wimp always venting.

I have my kids back and I am going to get busy with after school stuff, still cooking dinners from scratch, actually enjoying it though have yet to get an unsolicited comment about it.

FBOW

PS Incidentally since those vents seem to help I probably will continue doing so on my own thread... I guess even though I knew it was a no-no, I did build up my expectations for H coming back. Now I now for sure I should not have.
Keep reminding myself -all I can do Is to change myself, not the course of his relationship, nor him.

Dear Unsureheart,

Great post. Can you post this on GQII? Think many will benefit from the humor.

Seahorse,
I hope your session with Steve helps. I am sure it will. Your anger is quite normal and actually part of the healing process. You have been through a lot this past year. Take a look back and I think you will see and maybe wonder why you weren't like this sooner.

All part of personal recovery.

take care,
L.

Got an appointment soon with Steve. Feeling unsure of everything.

Forgiver - thanks for dropping in. Missed you heaps and think of you a lot. Hope all works out well and I'm really happy that you're happy. What can i say, your H is a goose for letting you go. Dad's MIA in Scotland. noone's heard from him directly. Dog stayed in Australia, just kidding, dog is good - my support and companion.

USH and SS I will reply to you together as your asking me questions. I've thought a lot about them. They were good questions to ask. USH I liked your tech support thing.

1. If you are going to shift into something else, how do you plan to do it?

Simply by replying to his last email. I know my H, if I start chatting he can't resist. Fog or no fog. He loves to chat.

2. What do you imagine it will look like?

This I'm not sure of. I know what I'd like it to look like but I'm not sure it will work out. I'm thinking 'just friends', but I don't know how it will work out

3. Do you think you can be in contact with him without his hurting you more/causing you to lose love for him?

my love bank is draining now. I'm scared I'm falling out of love now.

4. Can you tell us more about why you would like to go out of plan B?

In 13 years of knowing my H we have never missed a day of contact and talking. He is a much my support as I am his. I have not only lost my dear H I've lost my best friend. I just don't want to be out of contact, its hurting too much.

5. Did you feel like you were making progress and maybe you cut off ties too soon?

Yes, I was bitterly disappointed that things were going well, then they just suddenly changed. I know I did all I could, that it was going in circles, but I just keep wondering if I should have kept at it. Its eating away there in the back of my mind. Its really bugging me. What if there was something else I could have done and didn't do it?

6. Do you feel as if your lovebank is still full enough?

I'm not sure

Hi Redhat, haven't seen you for a while about

Relate - I don't know what anymore. I'm confused about all of it really. Everythings falling apart.

fbow - I will certainly share whatever I get from SH. Please try to see a counsellor or a doctor. I personally refuse anti-d's, but know that many here have benefitted from them. It should be up to your doctor as to whether you really need them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "she even cannot deal with the issue on her own". <hr /></blockquote>Does your H say this?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Would be a huge LB to ask my H if I can share my situation with our mutual friend ( she is miles away and don't think is a risk of direct interference?) <hr /></blockquote>fbow - I don't see why you should have to ask your H, unless she is his friend. Can you clarify?

Go easy on yourself

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Take a look back and I think you will see and maybe wonder why you weren't like this sooner. <hr /></blockquote>I think I 'defered' it to work on my M. I would not have been able to do what I did otherwise.

Hopefully the way I am is not going to go on for too long. If it does, I may have to take extended leave from work and just get away. I hope the holiday will help me. I will be away from everyone and everything. The people I will be with don't know anything and I can tell them what I want or don't want to. To not think about this for 10 days will be bliss.

Seahorse --

Please let us know after you've had your appointment with Steve H. I am very curious what he tells you to do. I am very happy to be getting away from my situation for a few days this weekend -- I'm meeting my sister and her children at the beach. I cannot wait. They love me unconditionally and I'm usually so busy I don't have time to obsess about WH and my situation.

I know you go to Vanuatu soon. I think that will be a blessing. Maybe you can wait until you get back to make a decision about going out of plan B or not.

Be well. I'll be away for a few days, but thinking of you.

Hi again,
As I see you posting and wondering, I think back about how you have done since I started reading here. I have watched you make many hard choices and you seem to always do the best thing even if it is difficult. Not that you never make a mistake, but you always fix it quickly and go on. I believe in you, and think you will do well this time too. You even realized you were in over your head, and didn't want to make a really big mistake so you made an appointment with Steve.

You made some good points on J.R.'s thread, I can tell you are looking at all sides.

Once again, you are going about this in the right way, I believe you will be OK in the end. Liz, you can do this, you really can. Hold your head up high and act like the winner you are. We all love you.

SS

I dunno if this will be of any help, but over in GQII Steve Harley is couselling Going_crazy to Plan A even after a very bad setback. He's said that Plan B is risky where there are no children involved and one must Plan A for as long as possible in that situation. Seahorse, if you feel that you went to Plan B prematurely, the best thing to do is try to get in touch with SH or another MB counselor and ask, if he advises so, how you can get back to Plan A without loosing your credibility too much.

- Relate

[ September 01, 2002, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: relate ]

Hi everyone, thanks for checking in on me. Yesterday was my 11th Wedding Anniversary. I survived the day by going to brunch with a friend (she really picks you up when your down) and bought myself a wetsuit for my upcoming trip.

So I finally spoke to Steve. I went briefly though the story and he asked various questions about why I was in B, what happened, etc, etc.

SH suggests that part of the reason H got 'scared' was because even though he wants to 'work on our M' and was meeting me, talking things through, etc, he couldn't see how it would work. Its as plain as day to me now. The situation we are in now is huge, without a good plan there's no way we can work on being married again - he got scared as working our way back from here seems impossible to him.

SH said that being in plan B is dangerous when there are no children involved - out of sight, out of mind. I noticed he said this to GoingCrazy too. He would like to discuss a way to work my way out of plan B for now.

So what he's asked me to do is to fill out the love busters questionnaire as my H would and send answers to him. Then I am to ring H and let him know I spoke to SH and that I'm working on me, whatever happens between us. I should also let him know that SH only has my side of the story and, to get a better perspective, would like to speak to H, and would H ring and speak to him, and also that SH has a plan that we can follow to help us fall in love and stay in love. Hopefully that will start some dialogue.

I'm going to ring H and ask him. I suspect he will say "I'll think about it" as he did the last time I suggested counselling, and if he does this I'm not to push. I hope he will, I will be disappointed if he doesn't. SH also said that if he dosen't to let him know and we will discuss what I should do after that.

I'm quite tired as I've been doing a lot of thinking and had a few late nights sorting all this out. Still I've got three days left of work and five days to go then I'm outta here and off to warmer waters.

Seahorse,
I am glad that you talked to SH. I hope your H do the right thing and willing to talk to SH ... You did the right thing to get SH's guidance to make sure you did your best you can. You definitly need to get SH's help to go back to plan A. Looking back, you needed to be in plan B to get yourself out from the worst time of your life, you were fighting two losses at the same time. Now you can refocus on M again.

-RH-

Just had another loss. Lost my digital camera, left it on the train on Friday night. I brought it to work to take some pictures of an award they had here. I thought I left it here, but now I'm here and its not. Its $800 worth and not covered under my insurance policy. I feel so **** because I use it a fair bit and I'm off on holidays this week...and I'll have to tell H about it.

Spoke to H re Steve, he said he could set up appt which actually was far more than I expected from him - I thought he would say "I'll think about it". Its a start.

We had a nice chat about how thing were going in general. All round it was nice. I didn't tell him about the camera. I'm still waiting for the rail to call me back, but somehow I don't think I will get it back. Dear God, what next!

[ September 01, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Feeling pretty down and horrible right now. Getting through a few minutes at a time. Feel like screaming actually. Send my LB questionnaire off to SH. Does not make you feel good about yourself when you fill it out as your SO.

God, what a mess. What an awful bloody mess.

With any luck I just will not wake up tomorrow and I can have some peace. I'm in total overload.

Liz - excellent news!

About H's willingness to talk to Steve - not the camera thingy.

Some practical advice: arrange an appointment for your H at a time that corresponds to the start of Steve's day, 6:00 am central daylight time in the US. This way he'll be first on Steve's schedule and Steve won't be behind as he sometimes gets. This will avoid giving your H an excuse to not follow through if he rings Steve and he's not ready for him.

Dave

Seahorse,
I know exactly what you are going through. My wife has been running to her lover in the next state and spending as much time as she can with him. Sh says she is going to move in with him. That is her choice.
Her comings and goings have been very destructive for the children.
So, I have decided to protect my family and me with a Plan A and anxious for her to leave. Soon. There is no other alternative at the moment.And it is much better when she is gone.
I will DO NOTHING to contribute to her leaving. Everything I WILL DO will be for my boys and me.
I think that some of the advice Ihave read regarding your situation is right on the money.
I know it is painful, but now you have the opportunity to take control of your destiny.
Read MB and do a Plan A. FOR YOU !
And, do not sell the house or contribute to his leaving. Let him go figure it out. You take care of Seahorse.
I posted my situation Aug. 30,started Plan A and I am already starting to see results for myself and my boys. This was because two members gave it to me right between the eyes. And, I needed it.
Thank God for all the people on this site.
Just remember, we are your support group and we will be here for you. BE STRONG. Try to Smile.
You CAN do it !

Thanks Dave, H will be arranging appt for himself (I hope). Will wait to see what happens.

Gregg, I noticed you are new here. Can you give me some more info about yourself?

[ September 03, 2002, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Hi Seahorse,
You asked me to tell you a little more about my situatuion.First a litle background. My wife and I have been married nearly 15 years.
The first 3.5 years of our marriage were blissful and full of love. We had a baby son , Alex in 1987 and had been living in our dream house. My wife wanted to have a career like mine once Alex had some tme with Mom. About3.5 years. She took a job at a well known company locally. Our affection and EN's were fairly well met except sex. But, it seemed as tho there was always something more important to do besides spend some real quality time together. We managed some time ,but not nearly enough.This is when her first affair occurred with a married co-worker. As a note, my wife comes from a divorced home. Her father had cheated on her mother and evntually her mother left. She was 13 at the time. A time I feel she really needed to develop her relationship with her Mom. Instead, she lived with her Father and essentially took care of her two younger siblings. Apparantly her Father was demanding and critical of her. Her older sister went to live with her Mom.
In her junior year of high school she quit school and travelled around the country and settled in Fla. She gother GED and got a job as a bar manager at a well known C.C .
She met a man and lived with him for eight years and then was married to him for two.They divorced. She moved back to her hometown where I met her. She has always liked to drink. Her family gatherings are characterized as mini or full blown keg parties. Alchohol is always available.
All of my family noticed that she always had a drink in her hand at our gatherings and had a hard time putting it down. I had gently tried to get her to slow down. But, it continued , mostly as binges.
To add insult to injury she never wante to seek help with the affair she had.I begged her. I had managed after about ten months, to convince her to stop and she never had contact w/ OM since. The affair seemed to be characterized by going out and drinking and of course sex.
I received a promotion at work and had begun to travel frequently. She met a femle lesbian programmer at work who was having relationship troubles.She briefly moved in with us. This woman is a functonal alchoholic. Their relationship developed and I had found out that they would get drunk and have sex with each other. This went on fo about three years,on and off. My W felt that this was not cheating. But again alchohol was involved. In 1996 we had our second son. And then she was fired from her job after a six year tenure, promotions and raises. This really devastated her. There were no financial pressures and after she recovered from a deep depression, she became a stay-at -home Mom. She loved it and was quite content. But her low-selfesteem issues continued. And so did the drinking. I had often told her that I would love to make love more if she woould quit drinking. Its dificult for me (and I drink moderately)to make love to a person who is high.
We neve sought help for these ssues because she never wanted to get help. She thought she could figure it out on her own. I disagreed. But things got a little better. Then I started a new job and since 1997 hve moved the family from NJ to Pittsburgh, back to NJ and then to Chicago and now back to NJ. She always seemed to like the moving becuse for her it was always a new adventure and a "fresh start" for us. But, I had expained to her that we needed counseling. And she needed to quit drinking. While in Chicago, she made many new friends quickley. The girl next door and she bcame fast friends. This girl (Debbie) had a husband who was in AA for ten years. He and I talked and so did he and my wife. He and I both felt she neded help. She didn't seem to think so. She was a stay at home Mom, but was always saying to me that she felt like a burden to me. I never understood that feeling. I had a great job making great money, a great family, house. I finally felt we had it "all". And then I was laid-off in a reduction in force. She was heatbroken. She loved Chicago and did not want to leave.
You know thru all of her feelings of low self-esteem, I tried so hard to make her feel how much I loved her and meet er EN's. And she said "I know you love me, but you're not in-love with me". THIS always put me at a loss. This girl has her name etched in my soul.
I finally obtained a good job and we moved back to NJ.
She still continued to drink and re-contituted her relationship with her old lesbian g-friend. They would occasionally get together and drink and have sex.(They did this in Chi-town twice, on two visits she made to us.)
Finally, this past Summer, we had begun to really avoid each other. And she began to drink very heavily.
On July 4th she got so drunk she passsed out in the back yard. I couldn't take it anymore. Itook the boys out on our boatto see fireworks and left her there. She refused to co-operate.
The next weekend she bolted to Delaware to see her Mom. A Mom she had infrequent contact with but maintained a closeness. (My W was very close to my Mom) So close in fact, that she always said that my Mom was more like a real Mom to her than her own Mother.
She came back, and then the next weekend bolted in the middle of the night to Delaware.
When she got back she informed me that she had met someone and that she cared for him. He lives in a seaside trailer park, as does her Mom.
I said that maybe we needed to seek counseling. She has kown this guy for years. He is a friend of her Mothers and was divorced by his wife this past June.(WHY? He did not treat her very well)
All kinds of strange things and info. have been acquird since that time. I.E. - He is on his ex-wifes health insurance, and according to my wife lives in a trailer that needs to be cleaned and painted.
She wanted to take he boys there, ostensibly to visiit her Mom. I steadfastly refused to allow them to be put in that environment.
She has developed a new social group thru this guy and I know that ther has been a lot of drinking going on.
Now, as she has said for the past seven week she wants to spend time with him. She doesn't want to move -in to the current trailer and he has been attempting to find a new one for three weeks.
When I asked her why he ws having difficulty obtaining a new triler, she sad he wasn't sure if he wanted to pay cash or make payments to the trailer park owner with whom is apparantly g0od friends.
Then last week she said she called a dealership to find out how much her very expensive car was worth,
She has never worried about that sort of thing.I asked her if she was going to sell it for a trailer. She said no. ButI am suspicious.
Anyway, I have tried to PLan A her after unsuccesfuly informing her of the "big " mistake she might be making and all of the other disadvantges I see based on the info se has given me so far, not to metion the boys feelings. She admits she's scared of making a big mistke, but continues n with her addictio to this guy and lifestyle. And, she is always repeating to me in person or on the phone that she "thinks" she is going to move in with him. In the meantime, she leaves and rarely calls. She is seemingly unconcerned with these two beautiful boys she claims to love more than anything.
She also says she is giving notice to her job in two weeks. And she has no new job in Del. I told her that she should at least have a job when sh gets there. But, she seems unconcerned about that. This guy has a not so successful re-modeling business. He does most of his work there at the trailer park.
I could on about all of this but I m sure by now you get the picture. And by the way, I have not been faultless here either. Obviously, I have not met her EN's very well. It' been a vicious cycle.
This is so painful.
I am on Plan A, but am gettig prepared to Plan B here shortly. I do not want to contribute to her leaving. I love her vey much and would like to work things out, but I feel that I must let her go. I have also sought legal advice, but have not made a move, yet. So there you have it.
Probably more than you wanted to know but it is so intertwined. I almost feel like writing a book about it.
Thank you Seahorse, for your concern.The members, like you on this site, have made a very frightening experience easier with their support and ideas. And,I have learnt so much more about relationships. What was I thinking in the past?
Anyway, Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Gregg M.

[ September 03, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Gregg M. ]

Hello Seahorse,
I am hearing some pretty negative things from you.

Feeling pretty down and horrible right now. Getting through a few minutes at a time. Feel like screaming actually. Send my LB questionnaire off to SH. Does not make you feel good about yourself when you fill it out as your SO, God, what a mess. What an awful bloody mess. With any luck I just will not wake up tomorrow and I can have some peace. I'm in total overload.

I wish today that I could help you to understand. This is more than about H and you. Your life is entwined now, with all of your friends here. We wish for the pain to end, but we would be in great pain ourselves if things were just to end and you were no longer here.

Why does it have to be this way?
I don't know why for you - right now today. I can tell you that all my pain and sorrows over all my life have worked out to be something that helped me later - and I can't say now that I am sorry for the bad. All these things have made me what I am. Now ( at 46 years old) It is easy to see the why of some of them. Others I still do not understand. I do have faith that God will some day take me out of this refiners fire and I will be finished and whole and much happier than I am now. For now, I try and enjoy the times when it is not quite so hot, and the pressure is not quite so great.

Liz, we care, we love you, we hurt for you. Please continue to stand. Don't fall down now.
Have fun when you go, and when you come home, try to look at things differently. You are doing everything you possibly can. Trying to make things work with all your heart. Surely blessings will come of this. Trust in God to take care of you. Try and understand that God works way beyond our understanding. He can make good come from even this.

I have a lot of faith in you. I expect you to get through this in good shape. Not just get through, but excel, and improve, and be much better coming out the other side.

I don't mean to minimize the pain, but I have never known much improvement to come from dwelling on it. Go have fun.

SS

[ September 03, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Seahorse -- I have been away and am just catching up. It sounds positive that SH told you to go back into plan A and that it was likely hard for your H to see how to get to the road to recovery. I was also encouraged that your H responded positively to the suggestion that he might speak with SH.

While you are feeling a bit down (ok maybe more than a bit) -- my perspective is that you are in a better position than you were before you talked to Steve. First, he has given you something to do/to work on and toward going back to plan A. Second, your H has been somewhat receptive. Third, you are about to go on a GREAT vacation/dive.

I think probably your H was just continuing in his confusion/scared to take the initiative while you were in plan B. I know this is what my WH keep saying -- I don't understand how I will get back that "in love" feeling. I'm afraid I won't ever be happy again, etc. etc. They are afraid.

Other than your camera being missing/likely lost -- I think your situation is overall positive and you should have hope. As heartpain said to me in a post not too long ago -- your situation is so much better than many of the others that post here. Your H is somewhat receptive -- many are not and are still in the hostile/it's your fault mode.

Can you tell us more about what SH has you doing as part of going back into plan A? Did he have specific suggestions?

I hope SH can talk to your H soon.

GO and have a great vacation.

I think it is great that you are talking with each other again and that he has agreed to try counseling. You can have a great trip while looking forward to coming back to a receptive husband with a lot of great stories about your trip. I also think the time apart has made him miss you a bit, which is why he has been so receptive when you did contact him.

- relate

Spoke to H last night, we had something else go wrong, getting very tired now.

H said he hadn't spoken 'to that guy' (steve) yet but he would. Yeah I know that promise and the way he said it, it means very little-there's nothing I can do now. although we talked he was foggy and didn't want to say much.

To be honest, I'd really just like to take a break from everything now. I was hoping Steve would get back to me soon with 'something' for me to do, but now I will head off without much to hope for and no plan. I have listened to everyone tell me its over and I'm in denial, maybe its time to start listening. Then again maybe my problem is that I listen to too many people instead of whats inside. Idon't know anymore I'm very confused and I'm hurting badly.

Sorry everyone, I know you don't want to here when I am down, but I cannot change feelings. I feel very sad and very down. I am tired and worn out. I've had a number of problems this week and I'm all out of solving them. Just trying to ride it all out, get through 5 minutes at a time.

My H was everything to me, and I guess that was my mistake. I put everything I had into one thing and thought that it would pay off. I truly thought if you could love someone enough it was all you had to do. Its hard to accept that you deserve such a punishment for being wrong. And how to you get over 13 years of 'togetherness'?

You know, when I look back I didn't really think I was that bad. I keep thinking of when we went to counselling and he said that there was nothing wrong but I wasn't happy and that's all he wanted. But he lied. That's what I find hard to accept. That one small decision had a huge impact.

What is even harder is the mixed signals I keep getting. He kept saying we were working on our marriage. Wouldn't that indicate that he wanted to or was he just to gutless to tell me it was over? Why lead me on like this?

When I spoke to him last night I had the overwhelming feeling to ask him what he wanted from me. To just tell me one way or the other. Does he still love me? Is there any hope left? I feel like I'm stuck right now. Stuck in limbo waiting for an answer. I still feel like it, just ringing up and saying 'tell me, either way', but I know it won't do much good. But then what I'm doing now is worse. Being out of contact is sure to end my marriage and I did it. That's what pisses me off the most. I got myself here. I'm so angry about it. I hate it. If I had just let things be...

Anyway gotta go. Will check in as I'm hoping to here from Steve.
bye

Hey,
We want to hear no matter what, down or up, we still care.

Perhaps I was part of the problem, perhaps I gave bad advice.

I think we really don't know what the end is yet. I hope you can go and have fun and come back and work at things some more.

Don't think you ruined things. He started this, remember that. Would any thing else have done better? We just don't know, so don't kick yourself.

If I could make one strong suggestion, it would be to have some faith in your self. No one can give more than everything they have, and you have given your all.

We care.

SS

Seahorse -- Don't feel badly about being down -- we all have our good days and our bad ones. I know how you are feeling and it's really frustrating. My drive home tonight made me think again that maybe it would be better to be done and move on -- but I also know there is still hope. I really do believe there is still hope for you and I believe Steve will help you come up with a plan that will help you.

We can't always be strong all of the time. It is good that you are leaving soon for a vacation. Sometimes it is getting out of our day-to-day life that help us get perspective.

I can't take your pain away and believe me I wish I could. Have faith in yourself.

Nearly 2 months of Plan B has put a distance between you 2. He seems to be like `Yeah, whatever' wheras he was calling for you on June 30 just before Plan B. Seems like yes, continued Plan B may likely see you divorced.

It may be difficult to work your way back to the position before plan B now. He's had a taste of being divorced and doesn't seem to mind the idea.

- relate

Hi USH and SS, thank you for your support. SS plese don't feel badly, I have done what I've done.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Nearly 2 months of Plan B has put a distance between you 2. He seems to be like `Yeah, whatever' wheras he was calling for you on June 30 just before Plan B. Seems like yes, continued Plan B may likely see you divorced.

It may be difficult to work your way back to the position before plan B now. He's had a taste of being divorced and doesn't seem to mind the idea.

- relate <hr /></blockquote>Relate, your comments may be the truth, however they do not help. I have seen some of your comments to others, and you often contradict yourself from post to post. Could you please refrain from posting to me?

[ October 17, 2002, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

There is no contradiction. The situation is different from one person to the other. Then the situation changes from one time to the next. But plan B in your case was a mistake that may prove difficult to undo.

- relate

[ September 06, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: relate ]

Dear Seahorse,
I wish you some peace and joy from your long awaited trip. It is hard but still possible to enjoy and get some strength from such a nice vacation. I know first hand - just before D-day when I was so confused, I found a great fare to Tahiti,so I took kids and went there on monents notice ( H said he could not go, at the time I assumed it was really work related). Even though it was not the same as having whole family together, we did enjoy the trip a lot. I do feel for you as just like you I can't imagine totally disconnecting from 12-15 plus years spent together. I treated this trip as creating good memory for myself and the kids, little did I know then that this might be the new way of vacationing from now on. We will see. I am still patient, though I do have extremely sad and unhappy days. He is still home though I assume the logistics of moving overseas to OW might be the main reason. And the kids. Sadly, not me.
Thinking and praying,
FBOW

My trip was great. I dived to 47.9M and did a night dive without a torch - pushed myself to the limit as usual. Considering I haven't even done 20 dives yet it was good. I felt sad at times, especially when I would see couples enjoying each other.

The night before I left I found a huge tumour on the dog's neck. It was subsequently diagnosed as a haemangiosarcoma, which is very aggressive. To cut a long story short, I had it removed and finger's crossed the pathology reports will clear him of further growth. I pick him up tomorrow. I was shattered that I nearly lost my dog, the husband can go, but not the dog.

Speaking of which, H is up to his usual tricks. After my return I asked him if there was any chance of reconciliation. He said no and cited my problems with his family. I have now asked him to divorce me, told his parents EVERYTHING and convincing myself that I can do this. I guess this is acceptance. He still plays games saying that while I was away he wanted to ring me up and tell me he loved me. I now babble back telling him not to play games and that I'm glad I found out what he was like before we had kids.

He's carried on the last few days about the dog being his mate, etc, etc and now I get a phone call saying he can't go and see him because he's busy playing golf and he's not sure when he'll be able to see him.

I'm still hoping Steve Harley will contact me to help me for me, but to date he hasn't.

Because of all the above I've not had much of a chance to post, the news of my dog really shook me. I'll be back when I can but things are going to be pretty busy from now on.

Dear Seahorse,

I just popped in to see how things were going and wow, you dove @ night? What was it like?

I am sorry to hear about your dog. I lost my one and only dog due to a large tumor in her brain. She was such a love. I hope all goes well for you doggie.

So the WS is babbling? Well, I am glad to see that you are able to put up your defense mechanism so that he does not distraught you so.

Seahorse, from the time you came til now, I have seen much growth. I am amazed at your stamina. I try to keep up with your thread. It makes me happy to see you go out and be adventurous.

take care,
L.

Hi Orchid, the night dive was awsome. It is difficult to convey what it was like as there are so many thoughts going through your head. The main one for me was not letting go of the guides hand. The next was I'm going to panic, but I reasoned with myself that if I panic in this boat in the dark then I'm going to drown - panic was not an option.

The firelight fish are amazing. They flash green light (biophosphoresence). They swim around and its light being in a movie theatre - very dark with flashes of light on the screen. The only other way I can think to describe it is being in the sky and having green stars around you. It was very surreal and I have to constantly remind myself I was infact diving and not asleep dreaming it.

There are different creatures around at night too. No sharks unfortunately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but I did see a turtle! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just to update you:

My dogs path results weren't good. I have to go on Monday and talk about chemo, which I'm not all that happy about. Its time to face that my doggy may not be around too much longer. Another waiting game like I did with mum. Each day I have with him I savour. I am very kind to him and I enjoy our walks together and I don't when the last will be. He keeps well, this is why its hard to believe whats going on in his body.

H is coming to mow the lawn Saturday (apparently). We talk but its all very confusing. I work at accepting the currently reality.

keep well all. Haven't heard from Forgiver for a while. I'm sure shes out there somewhere!

Happy Belated Birthday, Seahorse,

Sorry to learn about your dog.

Everything in life seems like a waiting game to me now.
FBOW

Hi FBOW, yes the waiting game is difficult. I'm very impatient,always have been, this is my downfall, its something I'm trying to learn. In some wys I have, I am more patient in queues, waiting for the train and in Sydney traffic (mostly), a small improvement, but I think it accounts for something and shows plan A does help in everyday life even if its miniscule.

My doggie is doing well, you wouldn't think he had cancer. He a tough little thing and I hope his body can fight it. I have to take him back to the vet tomorrow, so I will discuss options then.

Hi Seahorse,
that's good that other than tests your dog does not show illness. Hope it will stay this way.

You know, plan A DID make me more patient. I can only test myself on my relationship with kids, and they did confirm I got better (girls 15 and 12). I am also calmer and try not to start complaining or criticising without first listening to explanation - with teenagers it is really tough.

I did calmly inform my H today that it does bother me that he spends hours on transatlantic calls ( time and money). He asked me So? I said "I don't now, just so you know". About two weeks ago when pressed for status (we did not R talk since he came back from long vacation in the beg. of Aug) he said that he came back becuse he felt forced by me, and "nothing changed" meaning he loves her not me, wants to be with her. He's becoming more and more distant with each day, I am glad if he responds to "good morning". He is warm with kids, tells them he loves them. That's why I am reluctant to start plan B.
Well I know you cannot start recovery till the contact is over. So I am still plan A-ing but I am getting ready to let him know as soon as he tells me he goes for another business trip that it his CHOICE, not me forcing him, and to come back only if WANTING to. He's birthday is soon, I have two cards, one exteremely neutral, other really expressing how I feel about him. I think I will give him both, but annotate the second one "open only if you WANT to".
Because he considered my cards given to him before his vacation as "forcing" his return.
Well I do love him, I do hope we can build better and happy marriage, why should I lie and pretend I don't care?
Right now, since he avoids me almost completely, I can only avoid LBing and honestly, once in a while, tell him I care and love, and take care of houshold.
I want to wait with this "yor choice talk" when he'll tell me he is going. Otherwise I'm afraid he would see me as controlling ( I did consider getting him a ticket as a gift). And blame me in the future for that.
So I just pray and hope for stamina and calmness daily. I did become extremely edgy at work and I need to control myself better there.

One day at a time.
Warm thoughts
FBOW

Hi FBOW, Your story is sad. I know that feeling, when they go away and your mind races. I have gone down the path of telling my feelings about the relationship too. The feelings are now that I want the relationship very much but I can see its not going to happen. I don't tell too much though about how much it affects me. Plan A for me is now simply about being a better person. It was to get him back, but it didn't work and I tell myself that is not my fault (I can't control it).

I'm supposed to see him today after I drop my dog at the vets. I'm debating about whether to bother. It just hurts, but I will, I'm practicing not LB'ing and seeing as he can push so many buttons, he's the best person to practice with. I noticed after saturday that there was a LB withdrawal, I can see things about him I didn't see before. So seeing him will also help me to fall out of love. I'll let him know this.

I know he will be back one day. It does hurt, because we're going through all this, I think I know a likely outcome (I could be wrong), and I just think "Can't we circumvent all this". It will be more pain when he does come back, I hope if it happens I won't be out of love.

Hey Seahorse!

(((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))

I posted a reply to you on my own post but I wanted to come here directly. I am glad you are still here and you have helped so many people in your wonderful way. You are an inspiration and a foutain of hope for others who have yet to go through their own gauntlets. be strong and carry on with the grace and dignity you have thus far. I really look up to you and hope you know how much of an influence you have been upon me.

I feel a special connection to you and I am sorry I have ben away for so long. (my house was struck by lightening and my computer went down.) You helped me so much through this. I always think "If Seahorse can do it so can I!" I know our paths have turned a bit and our situations are changing but i still feel that connection to you. I see you as having more strength and will to carry one thatn I did. I also see your H as a better man than mine since he at least has the courage to face you. My yellow beellied coward left without a trace. But I know I am better off without him. He was a steppingstone in my life.

I was so sorry to hear about your dog. But he may have lots more time. One of my dogs lived for several years with a terminal illness, and she was quite happy. So have faith and strength. I wish I could give you some. But just know that I look up to you and wish you all the best. I will be in touch.
Forgiver

Seahorse -- Checking in to see how you are doing and how your dog is doing. Thank you so much for responding to my panic/d-day #2 post over in Gen. Questions II.

Did your WH come over? How are you feeling about him? What is the prognosis on your dog?

Hello Forgiver and USH. Thanks for checking up on me.

My doggy is doing well. He had his first chemo today and you wouldn't guess it from looking at him. Ate his dinner no prob - actually he demanded it! He's a tough boy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm trying to spend every day as if its the last, so he's getting lots of little treats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Forgiver, I hope your house is OK,are you able to keep it? I think heaps about you and am so happy that you are doing so well. You are an inspiration to all of us.

I don't know if continued contact with H is so great actually. I wonder if H had run, if it would be easier to move on. Who knows, we all have our stories to live and we can't change it. As you say, you are better off without him and one day he will realise what he has lost, if he dosen't already.

Do you still have contact with the in laws?

I'm still hoping you will come 'down under' one day.

USH I admire your patience with your H. You are such a gentle person and so caring for your H even though he does these things.

Had a few conversations with H this week. On Monday he finally reviewed the LB Questionnaire that I filled out as him. I was fairly close although it was interesting.

I clarified some things with him about housework and finances. He said that he hoped to find somebody who would do the lot without whinging, etc. I wish I could find someone like that too!

I said that I wished I could have made him happy and still believe that we could work things out. He didn't respond. I don't know if he was sad or just not listening.

Today I sent him a picture of me on SCUBA with a giant fan. He said it was awsome and it was now his screensaver. I felt good after that, but I think I sometimes read too much into the little things.

He has offered to mow the lawn again next weekend. I guess I will see him then. I'm thinking of some way to encourage him to call SH without getting too pushy. I was thinking of saying "I feel like I am the only person left who still feels our marriage is worth saving", then I could add "oh, and SH". If H is interested in speaking to him it may spark interest. The other way was to send an email on Monday just reminding him of the contact phone numbers/email for the office, because "maybe I gave you the wrong ones last time".

I know maybe I am reading too much into small things he does (Like the screensaver), but he did do the LB questionnaire and he is still willing to talk about it all. I don't know. I don't know!

I told SH about how H had said he wanted to call me while I was on holidays and tell me he loved me (after a fight with OW). SH said "that dosen't happen by accident".

Anyway I'm just playing things cool. My renewed plan A is going well and I'm really learning about controlling LB's with everyone. Its like I've gained some power within myself over myself. My feelings and reactions are more what I want them to be and not reacting to others.

Well, I swim with the sharks on Sunday. Wish me luck.

Hi Liz - I'm not around here much any more, which may qualify me to observe that your last post was encouraging to me. I'm still confident that you'll reconcile - just not as quickly as you'd like.

I kinda look at it this way: We've watched you grow tremendously and we hope your H has had just a fraction of that experience on his own. This was necessary in abundance before any reconciliation would be fruitful, IMHO.

Please listen to Steve and feel your way to get your H to speak with him. (Hint: when the time is right, arrange an appointment for your H with Steve as Steve's very first in the morning - this way your H won't have to wait as he would when Steve gets bogged down later in the day.)

You are a warm and wonderful woman - and I think your H realizes this.

With much compassion,
Dave

[ October 11, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]

Hi WAT, I was only just thinking that I hadn't seen you post for ages. I hope that means you are doing well and that you XW is not giving you grief and that your son is well and happy.

Thank you for your lovely words, they were very kind. Do not be too much of a stranger OK?

Hi, Seahorse,

I sort of just lurked recently, feeling numb, tired, and sad.
I pray for you and your plan A. And that your diving brings you some joy. And I still admire your will and zest.

I wish my H honestly faced me and complained where I failed. My strength and endurance is whittling away, b/c I see how everyday contact is worse and worse since he came back. I have no more ideas. I don't know if there is something I continue to do wrong, or is it him missing OW so badly despite their phone/email contact that makes him cold and silent. Is it guilt, but if so why won't he pick one of us for good. Life as it is now must be as bad for him as it is for me.
It is not cake eating as I see it.

He went for another business trip but not to where she lives. I was OK first two days but today I am a wreck. This time he firmly declined my usual driving him to/from the airport.

If he tells me he's heading THERE I am going to ask him to come back home only if really wants to, not because he feels forced by me. And that I love him but current situation is killing me slowly. I also think I will give him my wedding ring then. As a sign it is really choice, not a duty I will enforce. Maybe a plan B letter as well but that I am not sure.

I don't know when he might go there. I know I can manage with kids on my own. I do not know how to tell them when the time comes. I am reading Reviving Ophelia and on one hand it helped me understand some issues of my own adolescence but on the other hand I am so scared that instead of providing them support at home while they grow up, I am adding to the pressures that they face anyway.

FBOW

Hi FBOW, It is nice to see you around again. Please keep posting at MB, you need to vent and there are many people who have been where you've been and can help. I've been ill for a few days so haven't been around - too worn out.

All I can say is keep plan Aing. Try to work on yourself and the issues that are the problem in the marriage. It will make you feel more confident. Focus on your kids. Hang in there.

I've nothing much to update myself really. I've emailed H about talking to SH. I was so nervous doing it. I then called him later as he didn't respond. He had been in meetings so didn't have time. I hope he will contact him.

Good news today. H has agreed to speak to SH. This is giving me a little glimmer of hope when before there was none.

I will make an appointment (as WAT suggested) for 6am next week. I am not getting my hopes up too high, but this is a pretty good step in the right direction, and has put a smile on my face today.

Maybe my patience and the change of tact has worked. Thank God its before its too late and I've changed my mind.

Good things seem to be infectios at MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Posting at the site is helpful to *me*. If you don't like my contribution, ignore it.

[ October 17, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: relate ]

Dear Relate, I am asking you a second time, Could you please refrain from posting to me?

Hi,
It's still too early to tell what it will bring (as you already said)but always a good sign.

Steve's good at what he does, I can't wait to see what happens. Praying for both of you, fingers crossed too. Would cross toes but I would have to take my shoes off, and people at work would complain.

So what did you say to him to get him to agree?

SS

Hi Seahorse,
you are in my thoughts. It is only natural that you are hopeful about the appointment. And you are a good, strong, committed, true and loving person. Let it be seen and appreciated.
FBOW

Hi SS and FBOW, thanks for your comments.

For the last few times I've contacted him I have taken the situation at 'face value'. He says he can't commit to working on the marriage, so I've said 'then end it and do it quick please'. I've told him over and over that I believe the marriage can be better, that I am working on me and that I love him. I've been taking risks telling him things that are deep within that I've been scared to say before in case I get hurt. I've told him that his happiness is important to me but I wished it was me who could have made him happy.

I've talked and LISTENED to what he has to say about how he feels, all of it, no matter how much I wanted to shout 'unfair', I listened. I detached myself and heard what he said and clarified and talked it through. I didn't try to defend my position, but suggested that maybe we could have negotiated some of this stuff.

Basically, I got real.

The last email I sent him read:

"Your help is requested"

Dear H, How are you, blah blah

I wanted to ask you if it was OK if I give your responses to the Love Buster Questionnaire to Steve Harley? He is interested to see what you think and in fact has repeated his request to speak to you personally. He says that he has a plan for us so we can fall in love again and stay in love (I think I told you this before). He, like me, still believes our marriage can not only be saved but that it can be far better than it was.

I have made him aware of your decision and that I accept it. He knows that you are in the process of legally ending our marriage, however, he still asked me to extend this invitation to you. He would like to get your side of the story, I can only tell him what you have told me.

H, I've told you either way I am working on me. No matter who my next relationship is with I want it to last and I want it to be fulfilling and happy for both persons. I am very much looking forward to this.

Anyway, the email address to contact Marriage Builders is blah blah blah

If you want me to arrange an appointment I am happy to do it.

Talk to you soon, I am still interested in hearing about the golf and wineries.

SH

He reply basically said, I want you to arrange it. I have arranged it and will see him tomorrow to tell him times. He gave me fairly limited timeframes so I hope he dosen't try to get out of it this way.

I can't tell you how nervous I was sending the email. I edited and re-edited and after I sent it I wanted to take it back. But I took the approach that 'hey, it can't get any worse than it is right now, so I might as well take a risk'. I'm sick of tip-toeing around him, I just want to be the new improved me, even if he isn't quite normal right now. The new improved Seahorse takes these risks and the worst she'll get is 'no'. But I figure that if I can survive all I've been through thus far a 'no' won't kill me.

Look, I'm not going to get too hopeful about all this. I've seen too many hopes get dashed on these boards. I am taking it as 'my H talking to SH to tell his side of the story and maybe hear a plan'. I will take each day as it comes and still presume the marriage is over until further notice. This could simply be a little problem he is having with OW or it could just be him stalling to keep me here.

Besides that, he's got some work to do too, guys. I've identified two needs that he wasn't fulfilling properly, I want him to really be ready to learn how to meet those needs and to convince me that the A IS OVER.

[ October 18, 2002, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

I feel like I'm going nuts. H has definitely initiated the financial split, so I don't know where life will take me now. I'm scared, I will have to sell my home for sure. Its something that I've been putting off, but it looks like now its time. Once I am out of here, it will feel like there is nothing left of our relationship. Steve asked me not to push it for this reason, as it may be me who moves on.

I'm scared guys, its all coming to a head with H calling Steve soon. I know this is a good thing, but I feel like we're coming to a point where it WILL go one way or the other and I'm scared whichever way it goes.

I know I can't resist this change and chances are that things will work out better but it is still very sad. I thought we had a good life here.

I don't know why this is hitting me tonight. I've been like this a lot lately. Still grieving after so long.

Hi Liz,
It seems like even though we don't want to get our hopes up, we always do. I know it's got to be hard right now.

I will have to sell my home for sure. Its something that I've been putting off, but it looks like now its time. Once I am out of here, it will feel like there is nothing left of our relationship.
It's one of those ties that bind, and once cut, it is indeed hard to go back.

I'm scared guys, its all coming to a head with H calling Steve soon. I know this is a good thing, but I feel like we're coming to a point where it WILL go one way or the other and I'm scared whichever way it goes.
I think if you absolutely knew what would happen you would be OK. It's the unknown that we fear, we wonder what will happen and we usually imagine much worse than what does happen. It's hard to believe that things will ever be good when we are feeling so low.

I know I can't resist this change and chances are that things will work out better but it is still very sad. I thought we had a good life here. I don't know why this is hitting me tonight. I've been like this a lot lately. Still grieving after so long.

Perhaps this is what bothers us the most, we know about the pain, and we don't want to see others hurt. None of us knows what will happen, and what your future will be, but we have faith that it will be a bright future.

I have very strong feelings that you will be OK. I hope you will believe me. I know it doesn't take away the pain, but it should give you hope that it won't last forever.

SS

Seahorse:

There is a point where BS has to make a choice, yes it is very scary ... I never join dating scene and I have to be mr. mom ... but I survive & thriving. You will too. You will be fine w/o H, you have to focus on your life now. Actually for me it is easier, I don't have to deal w/ WW A & OM. Yes, there are times where we greif on what could have been but we have to realize that we have control to make ourself happy too.

-rh-

Hi Seahorse,
How are you? Are you willing to share anything about SH appointment?
I kept reading and re-reading Redhat's post.
I sure would like to be convinced he is right not just generally, but also in my case.

Take care,
FBOW

Seahorse -- Thinking of you and wondering how you are doing. I leave tomorrow for a business related conference and will have to attend a reception with WH's bosses and don't know how I'm going to restrain myself from asking why the F#$K don't you do something about this inappropriate behavior?!?!? I know they know about it.

I'll try and check in tonight and when I get back on Tuesday. I hope you are okay.

Hi FBOW, Redhat, SS and USH,

FBOW - yes I am happy to share any info with you. H has not yet talked to Steve, but I have spoken to Steve twice. Basically, because there is no kids, he wants me in plan A. He wanted to speak to H himself. He believes part of the reason H won't commit to M is because he can't see how M can be saved - he needs a plan which is where Steve comes in.

I don't know whether its just because I'm tired or what, but I'm really wearing thin on this whole thing. I'm tired of the disrespect I constantly get from H. I have put so much into this, that is why I am hanging on so hard, but I just feel so tired. I know I should love him without expecting anything in return, I guess I do and always will, but I need something in return soon to keep going with trying to save M - I'm becoming demoralised. I am giving so much, but its starting to hurt, because I feel like I'm just giving to someone who dosen't care. I feel like a fool.

After he speaks to Steve I will have run out of things I can do to save this marriage. Then what? With having to sell the house and moving out, I know it will be hard for me to keep hanging on. Being in this house is what is keeping the R alive for me.

Its just that I've invested a lot, I know originally it was to "win him back", and I've grown a lot from what I've learnt and it really is a plan A for me now. I am wondering how an uncommiting H will fit into my life.

I have been keeping very busy. I have taken up Street Latin Salsa again, but at another venue that is in the city - noone really comes with a partner, so I don't feel so self conscious. I am going to attend a Separation and Divorce group with one of the local churches - more to meet people than anything.

BTW my dog is doing really well. I can't be happier. We enjoy every day we have together.

[ October 28, 2002, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Hi again, been thinking this all through still, maybe I think too much. I don't know what to do anymore. I am demotivated to keep trying, but I'm just waiting it out. I don't have to do anything right now, I can hang it out till he speaks to Steve, if he does end up doing it. I'm trying not to get hopes up.

I hope this is resolved soon.

Waiting is the hardest part of BS's life ... but it is up to us what we do with the time that we have given. You are in a good hand (SH). Your WH didn't realize that by prolonging his fence sitting it would drained all your LB$ for him. Street Latin ... hmmm, OM is a Salsa band player. Here in bayarea there are sizable salsa crowd.

-RH-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
I know I should love him without expecting anything in return.......<hr /></blockquote>Why?

I propose that your love is NOT unconditional, nor should it be. Liz, perhaps you have fallen out of love with him and are hanging on to "win." You are under no further obligation to love him and if you wake up tomorrow and want to stop trying, I don't think anyone here will fault you. If you feel you are at the end of your rope, so be it.

Dave

Hay Seahorse! I mean HEY!!!

(((((Big HUGS)))))) You are doing so well I agree with what everyone has said. And believe me I know how hard it is to wait. You are so strong and you have done so much work. You should be very proud.

I am still waiting to hear from my H- haven't spoken since May. Not that we have a chance. At least you and your H communicate on some level and he has given some indication of being open to working with you to some degree. But remember what he says and actually does are two different things.

I was willing to wait and work also but there came a point where I realized that my H will continue to treat me this way because I allow him to do so. It took a long time before I decided that I could not handle the lack of respect my H showed me. I have too much respect for myself at this point in my life to allow him to treat me this way any longer. I know the demoralizing feelings you have. It was very hard for me to face the situation in its entirety. But there came a time when I thought about my mortality. How long do I want to dedicate my life trying to save my M when my H won't even speak to me? He claims I am too good for him and now I see he is right. I do not know how much longer I have on this earth but I decided that I have given my H enough of my time with nothing in return. I deserve more. You have to decide when and what is right for you.

I agree with WAT when he speaks of unconditional love. I recall something else I believe he wrote awhile back about love being conditional after an A. You have to set the conditions and what you expect. WAT also referred to possibly being at the end of your rope which brought to mind the following item. I may have found here on another board I don't quite remember but it has helped me take a risk I was too scared to take. Here it is:

"I received this on an e-mail. Sometimes we want advice from everyone under the sun,(not that advice and different opinions are not good), but sometimes we need to listen to our inner voice too. Just thought it was interesting enough to share........

They tell the story of a mountain climber who was
eager
to conquer 22,841-foot Mt. Aconcagua, the highest mountain
in the Western Hemisphere.

After months of preparing, he began climbing, alone. And
as the day came to an end, he decided not to set up camp...
but to keep climbing instead.

Soon night fell with a sudden heaviness, and darkness
swallowed the mountain. There was no moon, the stars were
covered by clouds, and visibility shrunk to nothing as
the terrain turned black.

And as he was climbing a ridge, about 300 feet from the
top, he suddenly slipped and fell.

Falling rapidly, he could only see blotches of darkness
as they passed, and he felt the terror of being sucked in
by gravity. And in those panic filled moments his life
flashed before him and he knew he'd die...

...until he felt a jolt that almost tore him in half.

Yes!

Like any good mountain climber, he'd staked himself with
a long rope tied around his waist. And in those next few
moments of stillness, as he dangled from the rope in the
cold, dark air, he screamed "HELP ME!"

And a deep, quiet voice answered from the darkness...
"What do you want me to do?"

"SAVE ME!", he pleaded, tears streaming down his cheeks.

And the voice, soft and warm, answered clearly: "I will...
just cut the rope that's holding you up."

But he held on tighter...

...and the next day the rescue team found him frozen,
clinging to the rope...

...two feet off the ground.

How close are *you* to getting out of your box and gett-
ing what you want? What's holding you back? Will you
trust the voice inside, the voice of that powerful part
of you that can do most anything...

...and cut the rope?

© Pat Lynch, 2000-2002. All rights reserved."

Please feel free to forward this on.

I hope this helped you Seahorse. If not ignore it as babble from your babbling friend Forgiver. It just hit home for me because of where I was emotionally when I read it.
Keep your chin up and know that we are all here for you. To cheer you on to fight and keep going or to cheer you on to fight and go on with your life without your H. Whatever you decide I'll be your personal cheering section and I am sure others will be there to join in!
Take Care
Forgiver

Seahorse,
Lots of us just thinking of you and hoping this finds you well...
ARK

Hi Seahorse,
Tough waiting, isn't it.

I know I should love him without expecting anything in return, I guess I do and always will, but I need something in return soon to keep going with trying to save M - I'm becoming demoralised.
Nah, you should not have to love with out expecting love in return. You have every right to expect love from him, that's what it's all about. Now if he was in a coma from an accident and in the hospital hooked up to IV's then maybe, but not when he commits adultery, not when he makes it a choice to be unfaithful.

I am giving so much, but its starting to hurt, because I feel like I'm just giving to someone who doesn't care. I feel like a fool. After he speaks to Steve I will have run out of things I can do to save this marriage. Then what?
I think you know "then what." Liz, don't be afraid. God still rewards those that try, he will take care of you and see that you are happy, please have faith that it will be so.

I am going to attend a Separation and Divorce group with one of the local churches - more to meet people than anything.
That is good, you do need to go foreword with your life, you can always take him back if he changes his direction, but in the meantime, you should make progress yourself.

BTW my dog is doing really well. I can't be happier. We enjoy every day we have together.
It's funny how much we depend on them, and how faithful they are. I wonder what the rate is of dogs becoming unfaithful to their masters? I bet it is near zero. Perhaps I had better go home and thank mine for his friendship again.

Still tough waiting. That part won't change anytime soon.

Don't give up on yourself or your ability to cope, you can do this.
SS

Hi everyone, thank you for your support. Just thought I'd update.

H emailed me this morning, he range Steve 5 times last night and noone answered the phone, he left two messages but noone called him back. I am so disappointed I do not know what to do. I feel like crying but I am at work and I'm not going through all this again here. I can't believe this. It has taken 9 months of hard work to get to this. What went wrong? The only thing I can think of is that the times have been stuffed (we recently changed to daylight savings. maybe I've messed it up).

I don't know what happened, I have emailed the office to try to find out, I may even stay up and ring tonight. I can't believe it. I am so over this situation. It seems every effort I make is just not working out. I am going out of my mind right now.

H's email says he may come around next sunday (not this weekend), so it is another 2 weeks I will not see him. I am so devoid of love at the moment I don't think I can take it.

I am so angry and pissed off, what is going on? AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!

Please God, let there be a good reason for this.

[ October 31, 2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

((((Seahorse))))
There is a larger plan for you I am sure but I feel for your sorrow, frustration and desperation right now.
Pleeease do not blame yourself for things well beyond your control.
You are doing everything within your power, and you do it well.
And yes, maybe it's the time difference/saving deal, or maybe they closed for Halloween?

I just learn something today as well. I am not ready to post about yet though.
Will check your thread later,
Hugs and Hugs
FBOW

Seahorse -- I can hear the frustration in your post. I cannot believe that your WH tried and there was nobody there after all of this; it's just incredible. Did you get any sense from your WH whether he'd be willing to try again?

I know there are good thing to come. There have to be because you are a good person and I just refuse to believe we were put on this earth to just experience suffering. You deserve joy and happiness and I believe it will be there for you. I also believe there must be a purpose for what we are going through. If nothing else, it has made me a kinder more thoughtful person (not that I was mean to begin with) and much more conscious of others.

Peace to you Seahorse. I think it's time for an at home spa weekend and then snuggling with your dog.

Hi FBOW and USH, thanks for the hugs I really needed it!

Well, it was daylight saving thing! Apparently there was a change over there too. This makes it really difficult and I don't know when I can schedule him in again. The 6am appointment is 10pm here, he agreed to that, but their next available is 7am which is 11pm here (on a Thursday) I don't know if he will agree. Oh well, I can only ask. Maybe this just isn't meant to be.

I wanted to let you all know something. I went to a Divorce/separation group with a local church last week. There was about 10 people there. I have to say how far ahead we all are by posting and learning here at MB. There was one lady who had been divorced 20 years and never worked through it and was still holding feelings that she couldn't deal with! I imagine there will always be some feelings that pop up even if you've worked it all through and fallen in love with someone else, but she had so much unresolved.

We talked about what recovery meant to us. I said that I would feel I was in recovery when I felt empowered - that I was in charge of my own happiness, and was responsible for it and living it consistently. I was amazed that one guy who had been divorced 6 years said that he had no concept of what that kind of thinking was like. He said that he still felt that she held his happiness and that he could never get to that point. He was still hoping there was some chance with his wife. I can't imagine myself being like that for 6 years! It would just tear you apart!

Thank MB and the people here for all you have learnt guys. Truly, the coping skills and life skill truly put you far ahead. Now I understand what everyone meant when they said I was far ahead of H. I can believe it now. Even after feeling so disappointed about H missing out talking to Steve, I've managed to put it all into perspective - months ago it would have been a total disaster for days!

Redhat - <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Street Latin ... hmmm, OM is a Salsa band player. Here in bayarea there are sizable salsa crowd.
<hr /></blockquote>Oops. Oh dear. I imagine you are none to fond of Salsa!

WAT - <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Liz, perhaps you have fallen out of love with him and are hanging on to "win."
<hr /></blockquote>I know, I've considered this myself. I don't THINK I am. The thought of recovery (at least the remote possibility of it) scares the hell out of me. I know its going to be very hard work and I sometimes wonder if I've got it in me. But the thought of just walking away... I don't know if I can do it while there is a glimour of hope.

Forgiver - Thanks for your story! You never babble, I love hearing from you and hearing about what your up to. I'm just waiting for the day you come and tell us you've found a new love! I will be even happier for you!

Ark - hanging in there.

SS - <blockquote>quote:<hr />I think you know "then what." Liz, don't be afraid. God still rewards those that try, he will take care of you and see that you are happy, please have faith that it will be so.
<hr /></blockquote>I admit it, the 'then what' is scary, but it is becoming less scary.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Perhaps I had better go home and thank mine for his friendship again.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, do that! A nice big bone would be a suiting thank you! I'm about to take mine for a walk, he's very patiently waiting on his bed... Its a dog's life.

FBOW!!!! <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just learn something today as well. I am not ready to post about yet though.
<hr /></blockquote>What is it? I'm intrigued!

USH - <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Peace to you Seahorse. I think it's time for an at home spa weekend and then snuggling with your dog.
<hr /></blockquote>You read my mind. I'm going to break open that port...

Hi Seahorse,
well I can say it now. I believe his need is for a young partner. I am too old.
I asked that point blank after having thoughts about that ( I still operate in a guess-what-is-a-need mode ) and the answer was not No way. The answer was as usual I don't know.
I felt really strange after that. Somewhat relieved. Of course shaken. Because this does not sound like a need of a man I married 15 years ago. I guess people do change.
I am planning on keeping a good care of myself but certainly not at all ( and ridiculous costs). I do not believe in buying time by cosmetic surgery ( I might change my mind - but you know right now I am 36).
So anyway - if this is his true and long term (how funny) need - I don't think SH has a way to fill it by the same person thorogught the life of M???
Any thoughts?
FBOW

Seahorse,

Actually, now I am almost single again ... I enjoy Salsa. I went twice to hang out few months ago, it was too hot for MM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> but I will take lesson after my Dv. In the bay area, the club's cover charged includes Salsa lesson <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

Liz - I read with interest your description of going to the support group meeting. Many of us here (including me) have postulated that we're way ahead of our spouses (and others not interacting with people in similar situations), but your post is the first time I recall some actual "research" being reported. I'm glad it made you feel strong!

Keep up the good thinking.

WAT

Hi Guys, I'm pretty frustrated and I need ideas.

The reason H didn't talk to SH was because there had been a change in time over there (and I didn't know). There has also been a time change here. This means that where as a 6am appointment was 9pm here, its now 11pm. H is now asking for an afternoon appointment and I have a feeling they don't give them (I've emailed the office). All this is driving me nuts. I don't know what to do, it looks like a time change is going to be the downfall of it all here. I've asked if he can speak to Jennifer instead but because I've started with Steve they'd rather we didn't change. The thing is that H may use the time difference as an excuse, wouldn't he be better to at least talk to someone so we could have a chance?????

Add to that the fact that H dosen't want to see me until he's spoken to H and I'm trying to stall lawyers for the financial split, the dog is being chauffered all over the place to chemo and bloodtests (I'm tired, I drove 250kms yesterday for this and worked), I need to organise this place for sale, but trying to stall that as well.

Today its all getting on top of me. Probably by the time you all read this I'll be OK again, but its just giving me the ****s today.

I'm also frustrated because I feel like I'm stalled. I feel like there's something I've got to do now, but I really don't know what it is.

Maybe I should just go to bed early and see if I feel better tomorrow.

FBOW - 36 isn't exactly old, exercise, eating right and having fun and plenty of sleep will help you no end. How much younger is OW?

RH - I'm interested in your answer. You may remember OW is Thai, I am having a real problem snow not being angry when I see a young Asian woman - this is totally not me, and I know it is simply because of what's happened. How have you come to the point where you could accept it? I mean, OM was in a Salsa band and you are thinking about Salsa classes? Do the triggers wear off with time?

WAT - Thanks for that. I was feeling stronger after the workshop. Last nights was good too. There was a guy whose wife had an affair and is still living with the guy. This has gone on for 18 months. He said he had no idea why it happened, could not see it coming. He said he has no interest in even being her friend, but he is still very angry and works longer hours to avoid the feelings. Hopefully once he gets going with the workshop he'll work through some of this stuff. I think if you know what you did to contribute, then can get past the guilt, then see that how the other contributed and forgive, then maybe you feel a little more peaceful. IMHO

[ November 06, 2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

One idea, Liz, is to see if there are any local counselors familar with MB principles - or at least specialize in infidelity. Looking ahead, even if your H can hook up with Steve and progress is made, sooner or later a local counselor makes a lot more sense for you mates down there.

Dave

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
RH - I'm interested in your answer. You may remember OW is Thai, I am having a real problem snow not being angry when I see a young Asian woman - this is totally not me, and I know it is simply because of what's happened. How have you come to the point where you could accept it? I mean, OM was in a Salsa band and you are thinking about Salsa classes? Do the triggers wear off with time?
<hr /></blockquote>I think what has help me out is that I met OM 1x and talk to him 2x. I project my anger to him not what he is but who he is. It is personal. I know not all Salsa players are OM and not Salvadorian are OM. I personalize it to him. Also my WW is the one chasing him now and broke their M, my WW is OW from hell ... arm w/ MB & other relationship book !. Several weeks ago they got into fight, OM punched her & she bit him, They are into anger management exercise book. Sometime you have to take care of yourself before your ego suffer permanent damage, this is one reason I will never contact her or talk to her and keep my distance as far as south & north pole. My trigger was my WW & OM, but not anymore.
-rh-

Hi Seahorse,

Sounds like you and I are having a lot of the same feelings and frustations. Like nothing we do has any affect. My H is also away so I am out of the loop so to speak. I do think it helps us get over it better for some reason. We are already on our own. I don't even really feel married anymore. H treats me like a casual acquaintance more than anything. It has like he has basically just gotten past any feeling for me. I am getting to that point about him too.

I hope you can get the call with Steve together if your H is still willing. You have done so much I don't blame you for being tired and frustrated.

I agree that MB helps us be AHEAD. I also know some people who's spouse's betrayed them and are still having trouble. One woman's H has been married to OP longer than he was married to her and she is still bitter. 8 yrs. I talked to her and I just don't want to live my life that way. I can see the light at the end for me. Can you see it? It is there, look real hard. I have not given up hope but I realize now that letting go is all you can do sometimes.

I can really relate to the Thai 'thing' Everytime I see or hear the word ROMAINIA I get angry. I have nothing against them but it definitely is a TRIGGER.

Glad to hear about your dog. I have two and they are the best friends. I hope the therapy works for your dog. It is so kind and loving that you take such good care of your dog.

I hope things are brighter for you. Keep thinking positive. Maybe you and I both need to "Cut the Rope"

Take care

Sharon

Help! Someone say something to get me through this. Spoke to H this morning. He is back in fog something terrible.

Says that the only reason he will speak to SH is that it will end our marriage. Says there is absolutely no chance for us, that he has another issue now and he can't just get rid of it (ie her). He says that if we got back together it would be the same, says that all he remembers is the night we had that really bad fight (just after dday 2). Says that its not worth it, it can never be good again and that he was unhappy for so long.

I said that it wouldn't be the same that I didn't want to go back to that either. I explained that I made mistakes but he never held me responsible, never drew boundaries with me and lied. He said that counselling was a joke and that he had never wanted to go (he was referring to the last time we went with that stupid counsellor). He said he didn't want anyone to tell him what to do, he was his own person now. I pointed out that even though he says Ow does not control him she seems to have him right where she wants him and seems to have a lot of control over him right now.

Wow, it really hurts. I had to try hard not to LB. I felt like hitting out something bad. Why, after all this time, does it still hurt so much? Maybe I had my hopes up about the thing with steve and counselling. Maybe I should just forget it. He says he will still talk to steve but it has to be a 2pm appt (which I don't think they offer, but I will ask). I have looked and found someone in Oz, but it means we start again and they don't use MB principles. If H walks in and says what he did just then....

I know I shouldn't take fog induced conversation personally, but this really hurts. I feel discarded and desperate again. It really does look like there is no hope here. I don't understand, do I walk away, do I keep trying? Is there some inbetween?

I rang him back and said I felt bad about how the conversation went. I tried to keep it light and we talked about other things. He has bought himself a car, so we talked about that.

There's a couple of things that I don't know how to do. Everything is so serious with me, its tiring me out and driving me nuts, how do i have a normal realtionship with him? I mean, just be a friend and have fun.

I need to have some fun for my own sanity, not the bellydancing, diving sort of fun, but just the living life everyday kind of fun. Everythings so serious at the moment and I don't know how to make it not serious. I know this sounds silly but its driving me insane and I feel like its a major part of my problems at the moment. I just worry about everything and I'm sick of it. Any ideas, can anyone point me in the right direction? Is there anyone on this board who knows how to live life to the fullest who could give me some tips. Reading it, it sounds stupid, but its how I feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
I know I shouldn't take fog induced conversation personally, but this really hurts. I feel discarded and desperate again. It really does look like there is no hope here. I don't understand, do I walk away, do I keep trying? Is there some inbetween? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, plan B but you have to discuss it w/ SH. Meanwhile let H to talk to SH for now, so that SH could assess your situation. At some point you have to take care yourself, you have given your best.

-rh-

I know RH, I can't keep on like this. He also said that all men cheat, this is how I know he was in fog. I pointed out that his father, brothers, my father and brothers didn't cheat - he said I didn't know that for sure.

He also said he has never given any indication that we would get back together. This has me doubting myself now. What if its me? What if I'm just reading signs to stay in denial about it all. See I'm loosing it.

[ November 07, 2002, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Hi Seahorse,

It's not denial, it is still that you love your H - and still hope for better marriage. And you are my hero as far as plan A goes.
Do not forget though that neither plan A nor plan B are guaranteed ways to rescue all relationships. They are just for us, BS, to prepare us in the best way to ANY outcome. It took a while for me to truly accept this fact.
Of course I still remain hopeful and willing but I do realize one willing spouse can't make up for the other side choice.
You know, because of the betrayal I think it is its natural consequence that you are suspicious and paranoid with everything. Same thing happened to me. I keep pinching myself and reminding that I am not crazy, just sad, worried, and stressed.
I think some people drain their LB$ quicker than others, so some go into plan B protecting themselves faster. Fog talk is hurtful but I guess does not compare to verbal/physical abuse or shouting, yelling or disrespectful, purposeful actions. I am draining faster now being aware that current situation is painful not only for me but for kids as well.

I am still in plan A but approaching plan B.
I am scared and guilty that I will have to bring kids into this eventually/soon.
I do make my choices according to the mentioned motto - I cannot afford to do something to be ashamed of now and years from now.
So far, so good. But no progress in the R. It is getting worse. My girls noticed that we hardly talk and got worried and approached me individually a week/few days ago.
I did not want to scare them or lie or give them false sense of everything is/will be fine.
I told them I love them, same with H, we are having problems, but no matter how we resolve it, they will be loved and cared for even if the solution might not be their or mine preferred choice.
I also told each one that when I will know what the solution will be - after talking to their Dad - I will tell them - but that right now I do not know the answer yet.
I hope I handled these conversations properly. It is sad but they mentioned they were uncomfortable talking to Dad.
So two days ago I approached my H telling him that we really should talk, and talk to kids, also reiterated my need for him telling me about his trips as much in advance as possible. I told him I did not demand the conversation right away, but that we need to do it.
Sorry Seahorse, you pain made me share mine.
I keep thinking of you.
FBOW

(((FBOW)))

I know it is very hard and you sound like you are doing very well considering what you are going through. This road is a tough one and I sometimes wonder why I chose this one instead of the easy one. Don't you? I know it is not easy to go to plan B, look at me I failed miserably, and look where it has got me anyway. Sometimes I wonder if it would have been better to go straight to plan B on D-day.

I'm having a really bad day today. I think I am coming to the point where I do have to enforce a boundary with H. I have warned him (not like the plan B thing where I didn't). I have told him that being his 'friend' would be too painful. Its something I don't understand. Why, if I was such a bad wife and did all those horrible things to make his life a misery, would he still want to be friends. How is it that he can sit and chat like old times about his new car and work but still be so angry that I was so horrid to him. This simply does not make sense. Then again I guess I should look at myself. I'm doing the same thing.

All I know is this is hurting a lot today. I don't know why I am back here again. I hate this part. But I know I'm not some psycho who hasn't let go. I got signals from him, I don't think I misread them. I made mistakes, some were really bad, but I can't undo the past no matter how much I want to.

I will organise this appt with Steve if I can, but I think maybe now I just need to let this go. Even though I know he's in fog rah rah rah. I think its time as RH says to protect my sanity. I'm not going to plan B with all the bells and whistled, but I will just simply drift away. He knows I love him, he knows I want him back. There's no need for all the plan B fanfare - been there done that.

Now I just have to concentrate on increasing my circle of friends. I think that will have to be my survival now. Find new friends and be distracted.

It is really easy to be friends with someone who likes you as more than a friend, but you don't quite fancy (or did fancy once but don't now). Most of the times the other person reads these signs of friendship as something more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
I will organise this appt with Steve if I can, but I think maybe now I just need to let this go. Even though I know he's in fog rah rah rah. I think its time as RH says to protect my sanity. I'm not going to plan B with all the bells and whistled, but I will just simply drift away. He knows I love him, he knows I want him back. There's no need for all the plan B fanfare - been there done that.<hr /></blockquote>There is time for everything. You have done your best and now just honor his wish ... for better or worst. Try to talk to SH before doing anything. i.e schedule one and if H didn't call you take that slot and talk to SH.

God bless you. -rh-

Seahorse -- You say it doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't. I wish you could come on my girls trip to Vegas this weekend. I was feeling down but this is picking up my spirits thinking of being with my friends.

I know exactly how you feel. That doesn't help I know, but I do feel your pain with you. I'm having a really hard time with plan B, but at least it is protecting me from the angry and hurtful things that WH says. I know he still says them from what I hear from his sister.

I know that SH says plan B is dangerous without kids, but I don't think it's any worse than continued verbal abuse by WH. That's what this is when they talk to us this way. Verbal abuse.

You have been so strong and I really hate to see you feeling this way.

I don't know of a magic cure to make you feel better about life (if I did I'd be taking it). I wish I could be there. I wish I could send you a plane ticket for Las Vegas. I wish I could make all of this go away.

Hi Seahorse,
how are you;
Hope you are doing better.
Please see me at my thread

My anxiety makes my heart physically sore. I know though I had to do what I did yesterday. I don't know if I could survive on crumbs of his love, even if I would be getting any, knowing he is capable of giving the whole cake to person he loves.
It would be so much easier if I stopped loving him and just let go. I am scared. Not that I will not cope; I will; I have to; for kids sake.
I am afraid about kids and family judgement and that I will be the one questioned, blamed, advised, commiserated upon. I am worried that my girls just like me after my parents divorce will carry guilt, low self esteem, too mature responsibility, no trust with them for the rest of their lives.I hope that no matter what they will remain my H daughters. I am scared knowing that at least till they grow up I will have to live alone thousands of miles apart from my family and friends and be solely responsible for their upbringing, providing and well being, physically and emotionally. I feel so tired now and I know I won't be able to mentally rest for years ahead.
Please pray for us.
FBOW

Hi Seahorse,
You seem to be stalling. I know that probably nothing has changed, but you need to examine and write down your feelings often.

You have me worried again. I know how easy it is to let the bad thoughts rule the day. I find myself wondering how you are taking the unknown this week. Let us know how you are. OK?

SS

Hello all, I've been putting of posting as I haven't got much to tell. H was to speak to SH this morning, and I haven't heard anything yet. Its now evening here. I don't want to contact H. I don't want to hear about it. I guess I'm trying to protect myself from being hurt. I don't know if they talked or what the outcome is.

Last week we had a discussion on Thursday that I have no idea where the fog came from. He told me that he is definitely not coming back and that he hasn't told me for a long time that there was any hope. Apparently because he has not mentioned being in love or whatever since late September, I should have known that it meant the relationship was over - silly me! If someone tells you they love you...he's the one in denial. I felt so awful after the conversation, it was all a huge LB for me.

I called him back as it wasn't sitting well with me and the next thing we were talking like old times again. I gave up long ago trying to work this out. I just take each encounter for what it is.

So, now its just waiting. I am stalling the financial separation, but I can't for much longer. I have to get out of this house (as much as I am sad to go). If I don't I will never move on with my life with or without him.

I'm not looking forward to moving in with dad. I think its going to be testing. I guess if it gets to much I move out again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Relate - I am asking you for a third time not to post to me.

Redhat - yep I've done my best. The only other thing I can think to do is contact OW and tell her I will wait for H, but I think that could be a double edge sword. I think the best thing now is to just do what I have to do - whatever that is!

USH - I wish I could come on your Vegas trip too! How was that by the way? Please update on your thread. I think about how your going. I feel OK about life, usually the down times are when I come here to vent (sorry about that guys).

FBOW - I am praying for all of us. You will be surprised how much a person can take. I will update on your thread after I finish here.

SS- I'm doing OK, I write my feelings down a, talk a bit and read a lot. Of course there's the doggy too, whose doing very well. I keep asking God what to do next and I get a very obvious nothing, so that is what I'm doing right now - nothing!

Hopefully I will have something more to offer soon.

Hi Liz, It's good to hear from you. I have been worring .......uh, make that thinking about you.

Hello all, I've been putting of posting as I haven't got much to tell. H was to speak to SH this morning, and I haven't heard anything yet.
It would make us very happy if you came back and said H wanted to work on things, but the reason I post is to help you personally. If we can help your M, that will be an additional benefit. You have invested a great deal of energy into trying to make things work, I worry sometimes that you will invest beyond your ability to recover in a reasonable amount of time. But.........you are doing much better than some of those you told us about in the support group.

Its now evening here. I don't want to contact H. I don't want to hear about it. I guess I'm trying to protect myself from being hurt. I don't know if they talked or what the outcome is.
You are trying to protect yourself. You are trying so hard to go on but you don't want to go on. Sometimes it seems to me that you may just get things to work by sheer willpower. If that could do it, you would be recovered long ago. I still admire you for doing what you have done. I know that doesn't help much, but I had to say it.

Last week we had a discussion on Thursday that I have no idea where the fog came from. He told me that he is definitely not coming back and that he hasn't told me for a long time that there was any hope. Apparently because he has not mentioned being in love or whatever since late September, I should have known that it meant the relationship was over - silly me! If someone tells you they love you...he's the one in denial.
Did I ever mention that he's the one with the problem, not you?

I felt so awful after the conversation, it was all a huge LB for me. I called him back as it wasn't sitting well with me and the next thing we were talking like old times again. I gave up long ago trying to work this out. I just take each encounter for what it is.

Remember that it's not what they say that counts, it's what they do. I believe he is a natural born talker. I also believe that conversation is an important need for you. I have considered if that is one of the reasons you fell in love with him in the beginning. Talking is fine if you do things to back it up. I once worked with someone that promised customers everything when he was face to face to them " Oh yes, we can have that here for you on Monday morning, no problem." but as soon as they would leave, he would go to the next customer and sell them, but never order any thing for any of them, so come Monday nothing would be there. He would then go off like this " I'll have to get that from someone else, that darn supplier didn't ship it for you." Really, he had never ordered it. He liked to talk ( sell) but that was it, he seldom seemed to follow through with anything else.
So, is he doing any thing that would make you think there is still a chance? Talking to Steve is a plus, but he may have wanted to do it just because he likes to talk. I am not trying to lead you anywhere specific, I just wanted to get you thinking. I don't have any real answers for you, just questions. Perhaps you have already thought all around this one.

So, now its just waiting. I am stalling the financial separation, but I can't for much longer. I have to get out of this house (as much as I am sad to go). If I don't I will never move on with my life with or without him. I'm not looking forward to moving in with dad. I think its going to be testing.

I think you ought to go ahead with the home. I can't see what staying will do, I believe you have said that moving would put you closer to work anyway? If he raised a daughter like you, I would think that your father must be a fine man. Am I seeing a little generation gap here? This is good natured teasing, you don't need to answer that one. (BG)
I guess if it gets to much I move out again. Yes, but you may find that you can teach your Dad something and he may turn out to be a good listener.

I think the best thing now is to just do what I have to do - whatever that is!
Sell the house, move, then think some more, it will probably come in stages.

I am praying for all of us. You will be surprised how much a person can take. I will update on your thread after I finish here. SS- I'm doing OK, I write my feelings down a, talk a bit and read a lot. Of course there's the doggy too, whose doing very well. I keep asking God what to do next and I get a very obvious nothing, so that is what I'm doing right now - nothing! Hopefully I will have something more to offer soon.

Doing nothing is kind of fun.......sometimes, but you are not comfortable doing nothing (right now) are you - and that is a statement, not a question.

I am glad at least that your Dog is doing better, I hope it doesn't seem like nothing will ever work for you, I still believe it will, and that you will be very happy. I am praying "for all of us" too. I know you want to have something more to offer soon, but I wanted to remind you to go on anyway. If there are things you need to do, or want to do whether you reconcile or not, go ahead and do them. Focus on what needs to be done no matter what, and it will take your mind of other things. Remember this forum is proof of how many friends you have, it's not you.

SS

[ November 13, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hi all.

Well SS I know what you're saying and since that last conversation I've been very much "well that's it then".

Then last night I get a message on my phone from H. He spoke to SH, it was very good and he said much of what I've been saying and he sees what I mean. He will come today (Saturday) to talk to me.

I should be happy but I'm not. I don't want to get dragged back up the mountain again to be kicked off again in a month. I've had enough of it. Either I get on with my life without him or he shows me that he means it and start putting action behind the words.

So I'll reserve my judgement till after I talk to him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Remember this forum is proof of how many friends you have, it's not you.
<hr /></blockquote>Thank you SS. Yes, I'm getting that more and more. I think this boy is really confised. I wonder if this latest deal is a another problem with OW, again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Talking is fine if you do things to back it up. <hr /></blockquote>I might use this on him today. If he wants this M I will contact SH immediately for cc session. If not, I will continue on with what I see my next step is (ie selling up, moving out).

I guess this is the point I've been stalling for. To me this is the decider.

Liz!! That's terrific!!

When my alien talked to Steve - well, let's just say it only happened once.

You are right to be neutral at this point, but keep an open mind. This may be a turning point - in one direction or the other.

Listen and validate. Don't argue. Don't be in a hurry to respond or answer questions he may pose to you.

If the opportunity presents itself, direct him here. I'll be gentle - I hope.

Dave

Seahorse -- As everyone has repeatedly said on this board. Actions speak louder than words. I think that your WH talking to SH is an action in the right step. Now, we'll just have to see if WH can stay on the steps and not fall off again.

I am very hopeful for you and WH. I am very curious to hear what your WH comes over and says to you today. Maybe he fell off the steps completely, hit his head and awoke from his fog and is now climbing back up those steps.

Hi Seahorse,
it's great development. At least he shows some willingness to change the status quo. And I cheer for you that the change will be to your liking.
I will be thinking of you Saturday your time.
Thanks for your compassion and comments on my thread, too.
FBOW

Its over guys. My marriage that is. He came today. There was nothing. We briefly talked about his talk with SH but there was nothing. There's no love there. He said he's been reading up on the website, who knows maybe he's reading this.

Its really over, I have to just get on with it now.

Please don't tell me I will be fine or my life will be better than ever or I find someone better.

Please don't say it. OK

[ November 16, 2002, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

(((Seahorse))), (((Liz)))
And one more hug.
FBOW

Thank you for the hug FBOW. Its 12.30am, I just had a big vent on GQII I'm pretty tired now. I think I'll go off to bed and post another day.

Please take care of yourself FBOW.

Seahorse,

{{{{{(((((hug)))))}}}}}. You should talk to SH to follow up and get your plan B ready. Meanwhile it is normal reaction from WS when they know d@mn well that they are at fault and they know that you are trying. Just vent here and get SH's advice.

-rh-

Thanks Redhat, I probably will be back here vent a bit. I'm really feeling very angry. But if this is the way he wants it so be it! If he thinks he can have a better life with her, fine! I have given him the gift now of knowing how REAL love works, he owes me that forever.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
Thanks Redhat, I probably will be back here vent a bit. I'm really feeling very angry. But if this is the way he wants it so be it! If he thinks he can have a better life with her, fine! I have given him the gift now of knowing how REAL love works, he owes me that forever.<hr /></blockquote>Good, vent here, our ears & skin face are thick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . All of us resonating in all 5 stages of greif, it is normal. However you want to move out quickly from non constructive stages. Anger is normal but you should not act on it and move out to different stages. Judging from your posts ... this is the point actually you wanted to be in. I detect underneath that anger you are in aceptance that you will be fine w/ or w/o your H. This is very good and it will make it easier to plan A or even plan B.

Anyway, you should talk to SH and don't take WH's word but look at his actions. I use to schedule 2 appointments w/ SH, one for my WW and one for myself for the next day. I can't hold my curiosity & nervousness and I could bite all my nails out even for one day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> .

Hang in tough. -rh-

Thanks Redhat, I know this is normal, but it still hurts like hell and I'm still as mad as ever. As much as I feel like hitting out I won't.

I will just never understand. He goes to people who support him to leave me. They've never known my side. They are people who don't believe in working through marriages. To them they are disposable. I am disposable. People who called themselves my friend. I am livid. I'm so angry!

There should have been some result from all this, there should have been. It can't just be that he dosen't love me and that's it. But what he said was so final. I think even if she wasn't there he wouldn't come back.

I'm not sure what to do with myself right now. I'm so angry and hurt I just don't know what to do to calm myself.

I just want him here with me. I just wanted to love him.

No update. Have an appt with SH on Friday morning, will debrief more than anything. Saw H today (day off for dog's chemo). I acted "as a friend" and nothing more, no crying, no pleading, just two friends meeting for lunch.

I am doing OK after a **** weekend. I will get through and am ready now to face the unknown, even though I'm scared.

Chow

Hi Seahorse,
You really had me going for a while there. I have been one of those that had tried to tell you that someday you will come out of the pain and be OK, but I didn't dare say anything.

I am doing OK after a **** weekend. I will get through and am ready now to face the unknown, even though I'm scared.

How could it be otherwise?
I am really sorry for your pain. I don't know exactly how you feel, and I can't take all that pain away and I can't make you feel better but if I could, I would. At least you know we care about you, I hope that helps at least a little bit.

I have been reading on MB for almost a year now and although I can understand logicly how a A happens, emotionally I can't understand how someone could hurt another like this and not feel terrible about doing it. I think WAT, Redhat and I would like to meet your H in a dark alley sometime, I think I'll get that book "how to beat someone senseless without leaving marks."

Actually those thoughts are probably not very proper but we really do care. Since I can't tell you that you will someday be happy, I'll just say that when you say "chow" at the end it makes me hungry and I start looking for where I put my lunch, even though it is not lunchtime quite yet.
Guess it depends on what you are used to. ( and if you don't get that, chow in some places means good bye, and others, it means food.)

SS

PS, notice that not once in this post did I say that someday you would be OK. Not once. I wanted to, but I didn't. ( but If I thought I could get away with it, I would.)

[ November 20, 2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hi Liz - I just wanted you to know you were in my thoughts.

Please update us after your conversation with Steve.

Dave

Hi Seahorse,
Just so you know I keep you in my thoughts.
FBOW

So, are you back to the point where you can laugh yet?

Hi FBOW, SS and WAT.

Spoke to SH:

He said that after talking to H he see a man who thinks he has found happiness. He has found someone who is willing to fullfill all EN. He suggested that because of her culture she is probably extrememly submissive. He said that there was some emotionally attachment and the danger was that as EN's are fulfilled the emotional attachment would become stronger.

RedHat, if you read this, are you from anywhere near Thailand? I have guessed you are from this end of the world somewhere round that way. If yes, can you fill me in on the culture and how young women are in the culture today?

I am not allowed to fulfill many EN's for him. Thus I am at a disadvantage and actually it is very disappointing for me. I feel very demotivated. I fullfil some conversation and we have lunch/dinner sometimes. Steve thought I should do a domestic support questionnaire with H and show him exactly how much I am willing to do. Obviously he thought that seemed a big issue. I am to find the domestic support questionnaire or make one up.

He asked how I was travelling with this. If I still had energy to go on. I told him I was pretty low and that H telling me there was no chance was a pretty big blow - one that is leaving me feeling pretty awful about the whole situation. I watched an old Dr Phil show that was abut mending broken hearts. Dr Phil basically asked why did the person have the option to come back? I keep asking myself this. Do i really want someone who wants someone who is submissive - that is not me and I won't pretend. Do I really want someone who treats me this way? if H refuses to chance, which it seems he does, can I accept that (No, I can't).

H came over today and was telling me that when he was away on business he had dinner with a female who gave him her business card. According to him, its just as friends (so he's already cheating on OW as well as me). Apparently now this girl calls him twice a day and he can't get rid of her. She has said she's thinking of coming up this way and wanted to stay with him, but he dosen't want her to. Why does he think I want to hear this? I just told him to be careful.

This relationship has reverted to a friendship. Has any R on this board/forum ever returned to a romantic R this way? But I keep looking at who he's become and thinking that I deserve far better than what he has to offer. Not that I'm at all interested in anything anyway, but maybe oneday in the future if that's what God's plan for me is. Right now, this time is for me - to become the person God wants me to be.

So the plan is sell the house and split finances. Find a new place to live and maybe a new job and see what happens from there. Either way I have to do all this and it will keep me busy.

SH says keep chipping away for say a month then reevaluate where I am and how I feel and call again.

What do you think guys? Do you think H can ever be saved. I've handed him over to God, do you think God can get him back? Its like the lost lamb. I personally feel this is a little hope. I asked SH that and he put it back on me. I said that there didn't seem to be much but something inside dosen't want to let it go yet. I've taken my wedding ring and engagement ring off. I wear them on other fingers. I didn't tell SH that, but its a pretty significant thing to me, I feel like a hypocrit wearing them.

By the way SS, I can laugh when something's funny. How about that? In general I try to put a smile on my face, at least I can brighten someone else's day huh?

I can't think of anything else to tell you right now. If I do, I'll tell you next time.

Hello Seahorse,
Can I comment?
I'll take that as a yes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spoke to SH: He said that after talking to H he see a man who thinks he has found happiness. He has found someone who is willing to fulfill all EN. He suggested that because of her culture she is probably extremely submissive.
Someday he will regret what he has done, but we wonder how long it will take. We wonder if it will be soon enough to matter.

I am not allowed to fulfill many EN's for him. Thus I am at a disadvantage and actually it is very disappointing for me.
WE CAN TELL ! ! !
It really bothers you that he won't give you a chance, because it would be only right, and fair for him to do so. You are having a hard time believing you gave up so much of yourself, and so much time to someone that could ever act this way.

Steve thought I should do a domestic support questionnaire with H and show him exactly how much I am willing to do. Obviously he thought that seemed a big issue.

My feelings on domestic support is that H has blown it all out of proportion to try and blame you for his problems. I also think that we should always address things that may provide an opening, and also you need to make sure for your own peace of mind.

I told him I was pretty low and that H telling me there was no chance was a pretty big blow - one that is leaving me feeling pretty awful about the whole situation.
What an understatement, I wish we could have helped more, but I couldn't figure out what to say that would do any good. I just prayed for you.

H came over today and was telling me that when he was away on business he had dinner with a female who gave him her business card. According to him, its just as friends (so he's already cheating on OW as well as me). Apparently now this girl calls him twice a day and he can't get rid of her. She has said she's thinking of coming up this way and wanted to stay with him, but he doesn't want her to. I think he is just trying to stroke his ego ( she hit on me) and make you feel good ( I didn't do any thing) at the same time. I don't think he realizes how it sounds.
Why does he think I want to hear this?
Exactly.

This relationship has reverted to a friendship. Has any R on this board/forum ever returned to a romantic R this way?
Yes ! , but I can't quote it. Redhat can probably quote chapter and verse.

But I keep looking at who he's become and thinking that I deserve far better than what he has to offer.
Yes, you do. We could go on and on about that part. Someday I may do it, just to see you blush.

Right now, this time is for me - to become the person God wants me to be. So the plan is sell the house and split finances. Find a new place to live and maybe a new job and see what happens from there. Either way I have to do all this and it will keep me busy.
Yeah, right, you expect us to believe you won't worry about H during all this? You are still in love, even if you don't want to think about it. Actually, it speaks well for you that you can be that loyal. Is there something else going on in side you that would make you want to stick it out?

SH says keep chipping away for say a month then reevaluate where I am and how I feel and call again. What do you think guys?
I think it's a good plan, go on and get things done, and check up on things.
Do you think H can ever be saved. I've handed him over to God, do you think God can get him back?
God can do a better job than any of us can do, but he leaves us free will also. I know a lot depends on our faith, but we do well to ask what he wants us to do, and do that. I don't think he will fault you for trying, but on the other hand, if it is ever done, he will help you get on with things too. I suppose I am saying I don't know what will happen but continue to seek God and ask for his help. He has never let me down, but I have misunderstood him a time or two and I felt let down until understanding came ..............later.

Its like the lost lamb. I personally feel this is a little hope. I asked SH that and he put it back on me. I said that there didn't seem to be much but something inside doesn't want to let it go yet.
You can't let go yet. That's one of the problems we have with you. You say you will work on it, then you get mad at him and wonder if it is over. We don't know how to best support you some days. When you say you want to make it work, we say " Way to go Seahorse, keep it up." and when you feel like quitting we try to encourage you that life continues on and you balk and go back to wanting to work on it.

I hope you can see my tongue firmly in cheek. I hope you keep posting your feelings no matter what.

By the way SS, I can laugh when something's funny. How about that?
I know the punchline - "but nothing has been funny lately. "
Boy, I'm really raking you over the coals today, I'll try and do better tomorrow.

In general I try to put a smile on my face, at least I can brighten someone else's day huh?
I suspect you get on pretty good most days. Can the people at work tell what's bothering you? You brighten many others days here on MB, keep it up. I know because I see your excellent comments from time to time. For someone that thinks they are doing so bad, you sure look like you are doing well. Did you realize that?

I can't think of anything else to tell you right now. If I do, I'll tell you next time.
We'll be around.

Now, for a lot of things, I am not nearly as good as WAT or Redhat, but I want to talk to you a little bit about something.
There was a time when you felt so bad you didn't want to any of us to forecast the future for you. We all know you will do well. We have seen enough of you by now that we know that. Sure, you could fail on purpose just to prove us wrong, but I doubt you have that much bad in you.

Everyone must have hope of some kind. It applies to people building their marriages, to those in POW camps, to those that are homeless, and, well, everyone. We were just trying to give you hope. Perhaps we underestimated how much your M is a part of you, and what it means to you to have to say it may be over. ( not saying it, is, just talking about things.)

Sometimes things are so bad that we ( those posting to you) don't know what else we can do but try and give hope for the future. Really, I am not trying to call you on the carpet, I just want to explain why we try so hard with the feeble words we use, it's because we care about you when you hurt. We want to help, and sometimes we can't, but we still want too, and so we try to help when really nothing will help.

I know sometimes you don't want to post on this thread unless you have some "news." Remember we care enough to let you vent too. Sometimes you will just have to put up with what we say, and realize that friends, really good friends don't always tell you only what you want to hear.

We really do know at this point how you will turn out. Now, I know that doesn't make things better, and you still have to live your life and cope with all the bad stuff, but we know.

We believe in you, even on the really bad days............. we still believe in you.

SS

PS,
Sometimes really good friends will leave us alone when we want to be left alone. If we could sit in the same room and speak to you, we could probably sense those times.
As it is, thank you for telling us you were having one of those times, so we would know.

[ November 25, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

[ November 26, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Dear Seahorse,
on board or off-board, I will be thinking about you and wish you well.
I won't be posting too much either, my H came back home yesterday but I don't think anything has changed. I am going to hang on, because he is not mean and loves our kids and they love him too. And he is back home. Maybe this means more than words and I should be more patient? I wish I knew if he consciously chosen to be back with us and what are his plans re A and long distance contact. I don't want to initatiate talk about that though.
I told him before he is free to go and stay if that's what he wants, but I'm not going to make him leave. I wish he would like to be friends with me.
At least he does not treat me as an enemy now.
It is not and won't be easy, plan A while knowing he does not care, but - I hope I will still be growing for myself. No pain, no gain. I love him, I try not to loose any remaining trust that I have in him in other than A areas of our life.
Will see how we will go thru the holidays, Thanksgiving is this Thursday, I invited friends over not knowing if he'll be back, he seems OK with it now.
Maybe if I decide for IC for me, he will go to his own therapist too. So we would be able to talk.
Have a good scuba session!
FBOW

FBOW, good luck with your H. Maybe you should find someone who will listen to you if you need it. IT might be here, it might not.

Myabe Steve Harley could advise you with your current situation.

Dear Diary,

I have a few thoughts on my mind and as this thread won't be used much for a time, I thought I might use it. I only hope I don't offend the rightful owner. I can always delete the posts if asked.
It is unusual for me to share my feelings at this depth, I usually give advice and I try to share my care and concern but I have decided to open myself up - perhaps more than I should. Certainly more than I feel comfortable with. I am not sure why, but I feel it may help.

I have this friend on JFO that I have been posting to off and on but she is not around much right now. I spend time pondering past posts to her and wondering if I could have done things better, or different. I wonder If I could have helped more if I had been smarter, or something. It's one of those things that eats at our minds but there is no good answer for some questions.

I agonize over the things I say, I hurt from the things I read. It's hard to do while I work, because I don't like the staff to see me with tears in my eyes. The store manager caught me once and asked me what was wrong, but I couldn't answer him. At least it's my own business so I am not cheating an employer when I do it. It is even harder at home because I try to give time to my own children and my W. After being here for about 10 months ( I lurked for a while before posting) I have made improvements in my own life, but it requires time, seems like everything takes time these days.

I have a lot more on my mind, but I have to go, I intend to come back when I get a minute. I feel guilty for kind of hijacking this thread, but I hope I get a chance to carry the thoughts to conclusion. If anyone comes by and wonders what I am doing, I hope it becomes apparent after a few posts.

SS

[ November 27, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Dear Diary,
I should tag this 5:30 am because that's about when I started thinking about what I would post. By the time It actually posts, it will say much later but I am not in the same time zone as the MB server that time stamps it anyway, so what does it matter. I lay awake thinking about this an one other post I need to make this morning. MY W will go walking with her friend this morning (it's a gal friend) so I won't interact much with her until her walk is over.

Today being Thanksgiving holiday in the USA she will be busy cooking most of the morning anyway. I'll help when she needs me but she will kiss me and tell me to read the paper and I will probably work on the car and see if I can figure out why it is running rough. I don't know much, if it is someting comilicated, I'll just call my mechanic and let him deal with it next week. Kind of off task here, so let me do a course correction. I was thinking about my MB friend - the one from Austrailia. ( just as an aside, my computer crashed and I installed a new hard drive, but have not installed a word processer yet, so this is my "raw" writing. I can't spell worth a darn, so I suspect that will show up in this post. I usually do long posts in a word processer and spell check it.)

Anyway, I was thinking about my friend and about prayer. I remember her saying early on that she had kind of lost her faith, or at least was not sure of it. I know she has prayed since but I really don' know what she has found since starting to pray again. It has been one of the concerns I have for her. It's hard enough to find my way through each day with the help I get, and I don't know what I would do without that help. I lost my way for a few months at the age of 17, and I had to find it again. I found what I was looking for, and have followed that beacon ever since. So many prayers have been answered for me, over so many years that I no longer wonder if there is someone there. I know.

I spend much of my time in prayer asking what I should be doing, asking for help in overcoming my weaknesses, and asking for help for others that need love and need to know someone cares about them. I have prayed many times for my friend here on this thread. Sometimes we don't get what we ask for, sometimes we do, some answers are hard to understand. I have learned that my Father in Heaven is always right, and that he always acts in love. I trust him now, early on it was more difficult to do. One of the most difficult things about posting here is that we can't always say everythng that we want to say. Some of my interaction with God is too personal to type out here, but if we ever meet ( I think there will be a convention center in heaven just for MB'ers to meet and talk over old times.) anyway, if we ever meet, I will tell some of them. I hope it is enough now to say that I know God is real, and that he really is in change.

I don't know what is in my friends mind to have her want to stay off the forum right now. I hope she is able to heal. I hope she doesn't feel she needs to come and explain it, and I hope this will make some sense in the end, and that it helps the healing, for that is all that is wanted. Mostly I cry for those that are in pain, and can't find relief. I have shed a few tears over many here, and prayed much for you.

SS

[ November 28, 2002, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

heres my story....after a very stressful year-Thanksgiving 2001- caring for a family and having my young -40- year old friend die and still caring for his wife and babies- working/teaching for the first time in 20 years-for one summer semester-20 year old son on a major solo cross country bike trip-we had ALOT of stress around here. apparently I wasn't paying enough attention to my H and a wandering he went.I had deep suspicions about an A going on-even asked my H to his face.....100x- but I couldn't PROVE anything-and I wasn't home to find out- people were DYING and I am a GIVER. Incidentally-nothing had changed here at home-we all still worked-lived and played together-On October 19, 2002 proof landed in my hands as I was walking into church to teach a teen class on deceit- life is ironic, ain't it? so-I confronted my H- he called the OW and went to see her in the following 3 days to end the A. the OW LIVES DOWN THE STREET- and happens to be my H highschool girlfriend....I can't move- and I doubt she will either.....she is also M. I tracked her H down and told him about the A- he left for a job the next day 3000 miles away and returned home yesterday-so he hasn't had a chance to deal with this in person AT ALL- what a way to spend Thanksgiving?? God Bless him. My 17 and 20 year old sons are dealing with all of this in a typically male fashion-they don't hve much to say to their father and they hover over me-one has a girlfriend with cancer and his plate is very full. I am living on Xanax and have lots of counseling and friends. I ''guess'' we are on Plan A.......but I am struggling with the basic concept- someone help!! Am I supposed to just be NICE and go on living like all this hasn't happened? My H is very good at that. work-sleep-eat-whatever- just like any other day in a peaceful universe....I on the other hand am always ''waiting''- for what I don't know. If affection is HIS idea- its all good-but if I ask for something specific (write me a note-sleep next to me etc..) or tell him my current thoughts and what would help me get past them - I will NOT receive anything-I will get ''quit bugging me''. How do I be nice and never ''needy???'' when does this turn around? how do I turn it around? looking forward to all the holiday therapist answers.....thanks.

I find that some of these posts come slowly and with a great deal of thought. Some of them don't seem to have much cost associated with them but this one seems to have high emotional costs. Not that it hurts to give, because I have sometimes spent a great deal for things that lasted a long time and were very valuable to me. We don't want to say the wrong thing, we don't want to be trite, and of no substance, and we want to convey love and care. On the other side, we want to help with laughter, we can't cross some boundaries between the sexes, and we ( I, for one, ) are sometimes not smart enough to communicate what we intend. When we first start to post it is hard because we don't know the person well, and we have a hard time being accurate. Later, after we know them well, we sometimes know them too well, and what we say is painful. Pain is never intended, but it can be a by-product of honesty.

How can you take the pain away from a good friend?
You can't.
What could you do for your Father after your mothers passing?
We offer comfort, but that does not take away the pain, it only helps us bear it.

Knowing we could not take the pain away, we have tried to help you through it but we are not very good at it. One of the reasons I have not helped others more is that I can only stand so much pain myself. I don't know why it affects me so, but it seems that it does. Are things supposed to work this way?

I checked in this morning and found that God is still there. I knew he would be, but it is still a comfort to find it out again each day. I prayed more for a certain gal in Australia. I get no sense at all of what will happen, however I get a strong feeling that she will get help, and that she will be able to stand what ever comes. Towards the end, I got a strong feeling that It was time to go, and sure enough, I made my meeting with about 60 seconds to spare. In reflection, if he cares about little things like having me be on time, surely he can take care of my friend.

SS

Hi Ruth,
I have read a few of your posts, and I am sorry you have to be here on MB. I do feel you can get some help here.

I have not read all of your posts, and I don't know how much you have read on the site. I recommend at first you read all of the basic concepts here:
Basic concepts

There are always things we can to help our marriage.

How do I be nice and never ''needy???''
You run plan A. See this page for Info.
Plan A and other things

when does this turn around?
We can't answer that one, but there is a much better chance that he will if you run a good plan A.

looking forward to all the holiday therapist answers.....thanks.
It is often slow on Fridays, weekends, and holidays. I hope you don't get discouraged. You may have better luck starting your own thread on "General Questions". It is usually busier and gets more responses. We are just a bunch of people that try and help each other, we do the best we can. If you want consistent help, consider calling the Harleys for counseling, it really helps.

I hope so much that you are able to work things out, I am praying for you.

SS

Seahorse -- I know you were going to stay off the boards for a while. I miss you and being able to commisserate with you. I stayed away for awhile because I felt I had nothing to share, nothing to post other than despair at nothing happening. I had the impression that you were feeling the same.

I was encouraged to read still seekings posts to you here.

No matter where we are or what is happening in our real lives, there are people out there that care and God cares.

I hope you are well and wonder what is happening or not happening with your life.

Want to come to a fun Christmas party in Colorado on December 14th, dress up, drink port and meet some wonderful women and men? I wish you could. My best friend here is having this party. Typically I would be hosting the party at my house with my WH but I just couldn't fathom doing that this year so wonder woman is stepping in and hosting the party. I think I need a party right about now because I'm not feeling very festive or much in the Christmas spirit.

I hope you are enjoying your dog, your dad, your friends and dancing and scuba-diving and all of the things that bring you joy.

Often we wonder............
There are many things in life we don't understand. I have seen it asked on these boards, and elsewhere - why? Why did God permit a young mother to die, and leave her children motherless. Why did my H leave me? Why did my W leave me? Why did 9/11 happen in the US, what about car accidents, and other accidents. What about war, famine, earthquakes? Could not God prevent these things? While I cannot answer all these questions fully, surely there are some answers available to us.

Could God prevent these kinds of things? The answer must surely be yes. He could drive all cars, and planes, save us from pain, prevent all accidents. He could save us from all labor, all effort, all sickness, he could feed us, keep us from every harm, even save us from death. Is this what we want? Would it be for our best good?

What would happen if we were shielded from disappointments, temptations, sorrows, suffering? If choices and consequences were taken away from us how could we learn, how could we grow? Should we be protected always from hardship, pain, suffering, sacrifice, or work? Should people who do good be rewarded, and protected from all harm? Should those who do wrong immediately be punished? If growth came from fun, and ease, and having no responsibility, then why would we ever exert ourselves to work, or to learn, or to overcome our weaknesses?

If this life is the end, then a short life is a tragedy. Even in old age, death is a failure. IF we look upon life as an eternal thing, stretching far into the future then all we do here is put in perspective. Is it not wise for him to let us have trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to grow our muscles, and sorrows to try our souls?

Should we not be permitted temptations to test our strength, sickness and hardship to learn patience, and death that we may be immortalized, and glorified? If our lives here were all that there is, then death would be a frustration, but it is not. The frustration is in failing to measure up to what we could be if we made correct choices, worked as hard as we are able to work.

WE know so little, OUR judgment is so limited. I suspect we are prone to judge God with less wisdom than a young child would use when judging some of our actions in relation to them.

Surely our best good comes from saying " Thy will be done." and continuing to have faith, even when we don't understand why. There is always a "best" path to follow, even when it is hard to find in the darkness of this world.

We cannot take away the pain, but we wish to help you with the journey, and comfort you as best we can from the other end of a keyboard. I don't think WAT understood exactly where you were coming from as he tried to help. His council was based on his experiences and on what your situation looked like to him. I believe his intent was to shorten your pain.

I have a hard time with some posts, as mentioned before. Sometimes I believe I can help, but I don't have time to say what needs to be said. Sometimes I don't know how I can help. Sometimes I have thoughts but wonder if they are correct, and if they are helpful. I usually read each night before I sleep, often as in this post, I repeat things not origional to me, that I have read, or heard elsewhere. I hope this helps, not hurts.

God grant you to know what you need to know, do what you need to do, find the answers you are seeking, and the help that we all need.

SS

I read back over a few posts tonight. I can see that it is easy to misunderstand.

I see things in my own post that I never intended to communicate. Some things sound kind of blunt that I never intended to sound blunt. Some things I intended to sound kind don't sound very kind. I wonder how these things were taken and if they help as they are intended to help. It makes me stop and think some - but I try not to think to closely in what may be the wrong direction. It's not healthy to think to long about negative things. Problem I have is that when I am down I don't understand what to long is. When I am up, I don't think on things enough, I just charge ahead and blunder through and hope I don't break anything. Where's the balance? How do we find it?

Do we ever get answers to any of this stuff?
Yes, we do. I have lived long enough to know that there are answers. We improve ourselves by trying to improve, by not giving up, by learning from our mistakes.

Another thing I have learned by reading past posts is that I tend to sound preachy sometimes, which I never intended either. Oh well, I still have a lot to learn, there are answers, but they seem to require hard work. Perhaps I need a new mental weight bench.

SS

There is a friend I work with that is having troubles with his teenage son. I won't go into real details, but to give a general idea, the son is doing drugs, has quit going to school, and the police have been involved more than once. Last week the son came to our workplace seeking money from his dad. I wasn't here but one of my co-workers said their were heated words and the man (BO) told his son to leave. The co-worker relates that after the son left, " I told Bo that I understood what he was feeling." then Bo said ( with real anger ) "no you don't, you don't have any idea, so don't give me any of this *amn talk about how you understand."

Note that these two are pretty good friends most of the time. I often think I hear these same undertones here on MB. I think that sometimes we feel that no one knows how "we feel" and that they donn't understand us at all. I think it's true. When in our own private purgatory no one can really understand us or reach us. No one can suffer for us, or take our pain away from us. I often feel for those that I can't help, and it is hard to watch them and know that.

Bo seems to be doing better now, even though his son has not changed. I don't know what will happen with either one, but I suspect Bo's pain will be lesser, and shorter, as he is not the one with the problem. He is trying to fix someone else's problem and is giving it all he has. In the end, all that he does may help, may not.
I believe we would all agree that he has to try.

I don't know where you are, how you are doing, or if this stuff bothers you, but I care.

SS

[ December 13, 2002, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Seahorse -- How are you? I am worried about you. I'm doing alright, but not great, in plan B. I'm thinking of you and your dog and wondering how you are feeling.

This one came from MIL today.

Blessed are the flexible for they shall not be bent out of shape.

SS

Dear Seahorse,
If you happen to lurk before Christmas I would like to wish you peaceful time and joyous dives if you decide to do them as a gift to yourself.
FBOW

Hi,
Hows our brave little seahorse that often doesn't feel brave?

I have been around wishing everyone Merry Christmas, and for you it is Christmas already, or close to it. ( I have never worked out the time difference for you and I.)

I still think about you quite often...... wonder how you are. I don't know if I have any words of wisdom, just wanted you to know you have friends all over the world that care.
If you have the inclination to do a status report, there are many that are waiting. If you don't believe me, look around at everyone nodding their heads when they read this. ( you CAN see them, CAN'T YOU???)

I know you get around the board every once in a while, I hope I haven't offended you by what I have written.

Comments have been made about the fight we have inside of us to overcome our own faults. I know you have some of those same feelings of doubt and worry that we all have. I hope today and this week they are distant, and that you can think of good things, and happy times, past....and future.
I hope by now you can see a future that has a sun, and flowers, and happiness....... not just darkness.

Best wishes to someone I have a great respect for.

SS

[ December 24, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

HI SS and FBOW and whoever else is "out there". It is Christmas morning here (10.10 am to be exact). This is the first slow moment I've had in weeks.

I've been to my lawyer again and have heaps to do in order to sort the situation out. H has overvalued the things I want - like the furniture and car, so I need to negotiate with him. The house is still not on the market. I am really dragging the chain with these things mainly because I just don't want to be bothered with it. But I know once I get to the other side of this bit, I will be free.

And yes, I will be free, I have virtually nothing to do with my H now - we just don't contact each other. I have given up and don't want him back. There's so much more on offer out there and I have my own stuff to do - like some more travelling and maybe buying myself a home -something noone can take away from me. I'm out and about diving, socialising and meeting new people. I have some really good friends, real diamonds, that have kept me going. I'm hoping I can repay them someday.

Thanks for your kind words SS. You all here at MB are some of those friends I hope to repay although I have no idea how. God will provide a way.

I don't really feel like a marriage builder anymore as I do not wish to save the marriage so its hard to come back and participate. I feel a little weird if I do. I really just come back to check on my friends.

One thing I have realised, there's a whole big world waiting out there for me and I can do what I want with it. Am I happy? - yes and content. I try to find at least one thing to laugh at each day.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - I hope 2003 is more peaceful and happier for everyone.

Liz

Hi Liz - glad to hear from you. I think about you often.

You sound strong and confident. Do you mind if I say I feel proud of you? Sorta like a daughter finding her own way?

All my best wishes,
Dave

Liz,

Thing could not get any worst than this year ... we just have to brace our new life. I am pretty sure you are more than ready to face it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Happy Holiday ...

-rh-

Dear Liz,

Wishing you well for the new year. It will be a progressively positive one for you because you are in control for what you allow to affect you. As for the Ws, well he will wear that symbol around his neck and life will not get better.

That's ok..... you go and swim with those sharks. Keep us posted and a bit jealous of all your adventures!!! LOL!

Liz, I am proud of you also. Maybe I am not old enough to be your parent (like WAT - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) but I am sure proud of how you handled yourself. You are a better woman and one that is meant to enjoy life.

Hugz,
L.

Hi guys, thank you so much. I never thought about making anyone proud, but that makes me feel nice - an added bonus to taking my life in my hands.

Well the cement in the building of my new life arrived today. My brother in law came over to say hi and merry christmas, he also told me H took OW to his family's place in the country for Christmas. He didn't really introduce her to anyone and she didn't speak much apparently (because she dosen't speak much English).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It will be a progressively positive one for you because you are in control for what you allow to affect you. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid I didn't realise how true this was till the above happened. Sure, I was hurt when he told me and stunned and a bit mad, but I calmed myself, I told my BIL that my H has gone to far and I don't wish to have him back.

Within an hour I was fine again. Sure it stinks, but it was bound to happen and actually it seems laughable now - they are obviously getting serious, funny, H said he didn't want a relationship...

He's truly a fruit loop and she's stuck with him. Oh divine justice!!! I love it - and I didn't have to do a thing!!!

The best part about all of this - I suddenly realised I'm OK.

Talk soon guys

Hey, before I go, WAT you willbe interested in this story.

Have you heard of the Sydney to Hobart Yacht race? Its starts on Boxing Day and tradition is that if you have a boat you meet the yachts in the harbour and travel down the coast with them for a bit.

My diving friends invited me out for the day with them. Although I love boats I'm not anywhere near being a sailor(es). Anyway, it was rainy and dreary and we were heading out the heads but never made it - 3 mtre swell - eek I'd much rather swim with sharks!

We never made it to see the yachts and I was glad to get back on dry land (except it was raining).

SH

Liz - you sound terrific!!

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Sydney to Hobart Race. It's quite hard core and unpredictable - requires REAL boats rather than those fragile sissy boats currently sailing over on the Huraki (sp?) Gulf in NZ.

But do give it a go again, sometime?

Dave

Seahorse -- I haven't posted much recently between the holidays and not having much to say other than I'm not really in contact with WH and thinking about filing for a D.

You do sound strong and I am glad you are checking in with your MB friends. I was thinking about last year at this time. I was miserable and WH was treating me terribly. This year is not exactly happy, but certainly less stressful and I'm not waiting for what awful thing WH will say to me next.

I now know for sure that your WH's head is not only up his rump, it's stuck there. He took the OW to his family's place?!?

Keep us posted. I don't have daily access to a computer for a few days so I will check in with you in a couple of days.

Peace.

Sometimes I post too much, so I thought I would give you a rest.

I hope each day gets a little better for you (with a few relapses thrown in, can't help that)

I hope you gain conficence as you go.

Still praying for you.

Still have faith in your ability.

Still beileve that you will be a much better a person a year from now, and much happier.

SS

Dear WAT, USH and SS, hi all thank you all for your kind words and support. I am having fun and I am content. I am happy being me and with how things are. Each day I find something to laugh about and life is not so serious now. I can see my 'old' self in others and wish I could help them, but we all have our own path and I am there for whoever needs me.

Well, I have the legal stuff well underway and negotiating with him. He comes back with agro, but I remind myself when I am scared of it that its all hot air and gas. I am determined to remain in control and power of myself. Not so much that i 'get my way' but so I know I have protected me and that he absolutely has no power over me. This is when the Alanis Morriset CD's come out.

I may see him this weekend after not seeing him for some time (he's coming to mow the lawn and see the dog). I am a little worried that I might feel for him again, but I will remember he is only out for himself and does not love me. I still care for him, but I imagine that will remain for a long time and it just a sign of being human. I do not want him back.

Well, I have fill out the divorce papers. I will send them to the lawyer when she returns from summer holidays. I see a financial advisor in a week and re enrolled in my Genetic Counsellor course last week. The dog and my dad are both doing well.

AS you can see I have what I can under control or working towards it.

I can see life has so much to offer, I'm not looking back for even a minute.

I check on you guys sometimes, USH I see things are still tough. Hang in there.

Liz

Good for you, Liz. When you feel like it, please keep us posted because we care.

On a totally different topic, please help me with this question: Who is Victoria, and why is she bitter?

Dave

HI Seahorse,
Your post about finding life enjoyable and not looking back made me smile inside and out for you. It also gives me reassurance that me too someday will feel the same. Getting there. Still hoping for "my way", and enjoying rare glimmers of togetherness.
For me the 1 year anniversary of "gut feeling" is getting close.

I hope to hear more from happy Saehorse once a while.
FBOW

Hi all, WAT, I don't drink beer! yuck! I'm one of a handful of Aussies who don't!

FBOW - thank you for your kind words. I hope you get through d-day+1yr, just plan something fun that will take your mind off it.

Mine's coming up next weekend - Australia day long weekend. I've booked myself into a learn to surf weekend - the next adventure. Should be interesting as I imagine it will be full of backpackers - 33 of them. Beer, wine and stories provided by the company that's taking us - should be interesting... I don't know how many cases of beer they need for 33 backpacker!

Well, house is on the market from this Friday....
Saw a financial planner who made me feel awful...
Saw H who told me I should really thank him because I'm having so much fun these days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...
He said not to worry that I'm good looking and will find someone (how kind) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I said I never wanted to be 'owned' again thank you very much...
I told him I will be divorcing him, he already has the paperwork done - I 'll let him do it and save my money...

Seeing him brought up some stuff I thought I'd finished with. I wonder if it every really finishes. It still hurts, you know, but I feel only a caring friend kind of love now, and I still don't want him back.

Still just taking it day by day. Hugs to you all and God bless

Well, house is on the market from this Friday
So are you there until it sells, or have you moved?

Saw a financial planner who made me feel awful
Why? Are things that bad for you?

Saw H who told me I should really thank him because I'm having so much fun these days ...He said not to worry that I'm good looking and will find someone (how kind)
He still doesn't get it. I wonder how long it will take him.

.......... I will be divorcing him, he already has the paperwork done - I 'll let him do it and save my money
I thought I could come up with something wise to say, but I'm just sad.

Seeing him brought up some stuff I thought I'd finished with. I wonder if it every really finishes. It still hurts, you know, but I feel only a caring friend kind of love now, and I still don't want him back.
It gets better, you are already doing better than say ...........September. If you don't believe me, read your posts.

Still just taking it day by day. Hugs to you all and God bless
God bless you too!

I know you have no real reason to hang around here much any more. Remember that you were a big help to others while you were here. I hope you know that. Sometimes we feel like a failure when things don't work as we wished, but just like WAT helps, you helped many.
I hope you give yourself credit for the good you do, and for your growth. You have a good sense of humor, I hope you have mostly happy days now.

I have two wishes for you now.
1. I wish for you to continue to search out God and seek to know what plans he has for your happiness.
2. I wish for you to find someone that will treat you like you want/need to be treated and that you will be very happy ( even through your future trials.)

SS

Hi All, thank youfor your wishes. In general I am doing well. Last weekend was 1 year anniversary of D-day. I went away on a weekend bus trip where they teach you to surf. I did stand up for about 10 seconds so I was really pleased. It was a great but tiring weekend - lots of interesting people - mainly backpackers. We stopped at a real Aussie pub on the way home, which would have been interesting for the tourists (it was certainly interesting for me).

House still on the market.
Dog still well.

H still comes every now and then because we're 'friends', which is weird at times. Unfortunately today we had a discussion in which I said that he could tell his friends that it was now me who didn't want the R (he said friends were telling him he should try to work it out with me). He said, 'so if I wanted to come back would that me I couldn't'. My heart sank, I said no, that I did not want him anymore that it had gone too far. THen it all hit me after we finished talking. I wondered if I said the right thing, still do, but I guess if he does really mean that, he will do at least half of what I did to get me back - but really, I wish I did feel something, but I just don't. For some reason, however, it still hurts. It hurts that for so long I did so much and now that I've moved on he's still trying his games - which sadly, I think it is - just more foggy games.

Oh well, it was bound to happen. I don't plan to read a lot into what he said, I just keep going with my plans.

Keep well.

So I emailed him to clarify what it all meant and told him I wasn't ready to love anyone, that he woulhave to prove things were different and that I knew that better was out there.

He told me he knew he had caused me pain and he was sorry. I was amazed and thanked him.

Then he went back to fogginess and said that as i could see he was still messed up and would try to find himself this year. Good luck to him.

SS, thank you for your wishes. My prayers these days are simple "God, please let me be the person you want me to be".

As for the other wish, I don't know, I guess time will tell.

SH

Dear Seahorse,
I see you lurking occasionally, just wanted to stop by and say Hi to you.
FBOW

Hi Liz,

I still pray for you, and I still worry about you from time to time.

I don't feel like you are still in limbo, but I don't feel like you are finished yet either. I suppose I had better keep checking up on you from time to time.

Here's to many happy times for you ahead.

Ss

Seahorse -- I just caught up with your post and read your message in mine. My d-day anniversary passed without much notice by me, which I think was a good thing. I'd had a dinner party the night before and everyone stayed late and had a good time. My best friend (female) stayed the night and so we just hung out that a.m. drinking coffee and went skiing the next day.

Surfing sounds excellent. I think it's terrific you were able to stand up at all. Lord knows I would be clinging to that board with my entire body. I love the ocean and sail and swim, but surfing has always eluded me (well, probably mostly because I live in Colorado now. Not many opportunities to surf or scuba dive).

It doesn't sound as if your WH has filed for a divorce. If you continue to feel the way you do, have you given yourself a timeframe for when you will file? I'm curious about this. I haven't reached the completely not interested in WH point yet, but it's probably not far off considering how he is behaving. I think when/if I reach that point that I will file.

Take care. Keep surfing and drinking the port in the bath (I now have a penchant for champagne in the tub when I'm feeling really decadent).

Hi FBOW, SS and USH.

FBOW I have seen your last post on your thread you sound very down - are you doing stuff to pick yourself up?

SS - yeah, I'm out of limbo (except for waiting for the house to sell and the finances to be finalised,but I have no control over that so I don't let it bother me). I'm reading Dr Phil McGraw's Life Strategies at the moment. I know that sounds corny but I'm in a 'tell it like it is' mood these days and I'm ready to get my life working how it should be. I am still unhappy with my job and I still want to extent the number of friends I have. He suggests we are responsible for the situations we are in, so I'm reading that to see if it can help me work out how I can change things.

Work is driving me nuts, since I started there (about 3 years ago) a string of people have been on stress leave saying my bossess harrassed them. Now two of those people are suing the workplace-one I was friends with. Its creating big problems and a very unpleasant atmosphere. I feel like there is noone i can trust there and if you say something it might be used against you or taken the wrong way. I'm fed up with it and I'm bored with what I do - I'm not being challenged enough. I'm getting the feeling that life and workplaces work in two parrellel ways. There is the theoretical way to live life and do your job and then there's the 'way it is' which gets you ahead. Lately I feel like a fish out of water there. I always prided myself on my work ethic, but now I'm wondering if I have it all wrong- similar to the marriage stuff, you know - you are living what you think is right then it all breaks down and you suddenly realise you were doing it all wrong. urghhh!

USH - re divorcing H. Well, he told me the forms were all ready to go, then last week when I asked him to bring them for me to sign he said they were even filled in and he couldn't find the money, so he's stalling. I really don't care for this anymore so I've decided that if he dosen't file by the time the house is sold and we sort all the finances out I will and I will - my forms ARE filled out and I will spend the money to finish this. I am done.

I love him still, but its different, there's no attraction anymore. Its funny but even though he's been a jerk I still care very much and would help him if he needed it. Maybe I should not be this way, maybe I should tell him where to go, but it just dosen't feel right to do that.

Believe me USH, when you are done you will know it without a doubt.

Seahorse:

I remember when this all began, because it wasn't long after my D-day that you "came aboard." (I was T-zero not 2long ago).

I apologize for being wrapped up in my own woes most of the past year, but I've lurked on your thread from time to time, and I'm glad to see that you're doing so well now.

"I love him still, but its different, there's no attraction anymore. Its funny but even though he's been a jerk I still care very much and would help him if he needed it. Maybe I should not be this way, maybe I should tell him where to go, but it just dosen't feel right to do that."

This sounds like a very healthy way to end things. You have a great perspective on life now, Seahorse!

All my best,
-Qfwfq

Hi there q, thanks for your observation, I figure that it just as easy to let things go as it is to hate someone and really its just a waste of energy i can chanel into my own life and improving myself after all I'm far from perfect.

Good luck with it

So,
In Australia it's valentines day. ( Er, at least it is Feb 14 and that is valentines day here) Happy valentines day. I'll say that to all my co-workers tomorrow, and even bring in some pretzels or cookies.
Sorry the job isn't going well. I have noticed that after you learn about how things ought to be in a M, it applies to all relationships. We know people can get along without DJ's and AO's and that we can use POJA to get things done and we expect it.

I can see you are still wondering about a lot of things. I do believe you will find the answers and that you will be happy with them.

Married life really can be what you wished for it to be. I can vouch for that. It's hard some days, but it's good. Keep learning, keep praying, and keep fighting through the down days. It gets better as you learn to cope.

SS

Hi SS, thanks for your words of wisdom. I hope I do have a good relationship one day. I often wonder if its possible to find someone with everything you need, and if not, where do you compromise?

I must say there are days I wish I had someone and days I don't know if I could do it again. Actually todays is one of those days. It will pass, just feeling a bit lonely and sad.

Well, I had an interesting Valentine's day, that's all I can say really.

[ February 16, 2003, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Hi seahorse,

Just popping in to let you know I am keeping up with how things are.

An interesting valentines day? Do tell!!!

I got three beautiful cards....they were from the kids, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . But at least I was remembered and loved by someone. Next year, I think I will make one for each of themk, since they go to such trouble for me.

Love and light,

Jacky

Well, I had an interesting Valentine's day, that's all I can say really.

So?????????
Can you say yet?
Was it something bad, and are you doing OK?

I often wonder if its possible to find someone with everything you need, and if not, where do you compromise?

I don't believe it is possible to get everything. I believe you look for someone that will work on things with you. Someone that is willing to learn and grow, not stay the same.
Hint, God knows everything and he can help you choose. I am not trying to be funny here, It's true.

SS

[ February 16, 2003, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

I find I wonder about forgiver. Thought about looking up her thread, but felt to leave it alone. It's been more than a year now for both of you.

Hope Liz is doing well today.

SS

Hi Guys, thanks for checking in on me. Well I am still in the process of selling the house. The demands of it and work are creeping up on me, I'm not handling it so well right now - it seems everyone wants a piece of me and there's not much left to give for the moment.

Jacky re Valentine's - well, actually, I had a 'date' which was weird. He was very nice and we seemed to hit it off, but he decided at the end of the night he wasn't sure, blah blah - you know - history repeating which scared the hell out of me. The thing is that we had been chatting for some time on the net and I had become more attached than I realised, so it hurt. I learned a big lesson there really, but the evening was fun, we had Thai (of all places!) which had bad karaoke. It was actually a really fun disaster date, and at least I can laugh at it (and myself). He was really an interesting person and seemed interested in me, even told me I underestimated myself. I didn't know how to respond to that. I know I do and I'm trying to fix it. I've tried to analyse from all that was said what went wrong, but I don't know for sure and I'm sick of presumptions so I'm just getting on with it and time will fade the memories.

So now I'm back to me and my legal mess, which is probably a better place to be by myself. I think I just felt I had to test the water to see if, well, I don't know why really, maybe I just wanted reassurance that someone can like me and I can like them and we can have an adult conversation and fun. Silly, but what I needed.

I also have a huge load at work, so I asked for a couple of days off, just to try and cope with the personal stuff, then the work stuff might be easier. Plus a little time for me - I think I'm still grieving - my disaster date brought up a lot of that stuff again. And H is being slightly difficult about the financial split so I'm getting quite frustrated.

He knows I want the car and furniture - he has overvalued them incredibly. He has told me my lawyer is trying to rip me off because she's told me to have them valued (they are nowhere near the value he's stated). He's telling me that I should want the value high because then there is more money in the end to divide up. Now I don't know wether he really believes I'm that stupid or whether he is, but I can't believe what he's trying to pull. I'll be so glad when this is done and I pray myself to sleep some nights because its all I can think of.

I'm doing something about all this though. I've picked up Dr Phil McGraws <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Life Challenges and I'm reviewing everything in my life. I never thought one of these things would work, but its opened my eyes to a few things - and yes SS your right (again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), the same issues do go across different parts of your life- many of my problems seem to stem from not enforcing boundaries with people. As sad as this sounds I've discovered a themes in my life "I will let you say or do what you want so you will like me". I am almost ashamed to type that here, but its the truth and if I'm going to fix my life I have to start being truthful with myself and others. Another is that "I'm not worthy". So there it is, two themes that have to change ASAP if I'm to change this pain into something good. I know that right now I have an opportunity to make my life what it should be, this opportunity won't be around forever, so I have to do this stuff now - I just get that feeling, you know.

SS, I too think about Forgiver, I hope she is happy and doing well - I know she will be. I think she is very strong-far braver than I was, and probably more sensible. Hopefully she will come back one day to update us.

Anyway, I'm going to toddle off, its 12.30am, I can't sleep (worrying), so thank you for listening, hopefully now I have some of this off my chest I will sleep.

By the way SS, what happened to your wife?

Take care all
Liz <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ February 26, 2003, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

Hi Guys, I managed to get through the last week quite well. I now own a car (the car 'we' owned) -this is the first time I've ever owned a car so I'm quite excited.

Dv proceedings still going. No offers on the house yet.

Still surviving and nearly thriving (still a bit of work to do there).

Take care.

Hi Seahorse,
It's good to know you are doing OK and progressing re practical stuff and also testing waters in emotional matters as well.

I am trying to keep my head cool. I still love my H very much, even though he left again for an overseas business trip and refused to answer my point blank question if he's going to meet OW in person. I drove him to the airport and he silently hugged me goodbye.

I found a willing lender so I am looking around for a small home in my kids school zone I could afford on my salary alone thinking this can always be rented out or sold if by a miracle my H decides to actively join in efforts to rebuild our M. I am doing this with as cool head as possible and still thinking of it more as an investment rather than fall back abode. The market for those homes is very competitive and for my price range there are multiple offers and it is very tempting to forget about the goal in the process, but I will be OK.

I did not give H a plan B letter. Because I was not sure how to even implement plan B if he comes back to our home to live with me and the kids, and in my heart NOT ready for not seeing him. And he seems to be more involved with kids than ever.
He maintains this is just a business trip, that I am paranoid for asking him to contact me daily etc. So I AGAIN reminded him that I love him, but never said I am able or willing to share him with anybody else and that I think he knows in his heart why I am acting like that.
I have to be really focused on my job. I will need it no matter what. It is very hard for me to remain calm and professional there.

See you around Seahorse. I don't post as much anymore because I am boring and repaeating myself plus my home search takes lots of time and energy.
But it is very reassuring knowing that you are living your life to the best you can and that there are good souls out there thinking and praying and connected somehow to me that I don't feel alone that badly anymore.

FBOW

Seahorse -- I haven't been around much/nothing new to report and I'm feeling consumed by all of this because I can't make a decision.

I envy the sense of peace you say you feel about your decision to D. I wish I was there.

It sounds as if your WH gave in on the car valuation/or maybe I'm not understanding how you have it now (but am glad you got one of the things you wanted).

I think part of my paralysis on the D is that I know it will dramatically change my financial situation. Not a good reason to stay in limbo. If I can get to that point of peace with a decision to D, I will ask that we agree to split the proceeds from the house, but agree not to sell if for a year (the market for selling here is bad right now so it is both of our advantage not to put it on the market today).

You sound as if you're doing fairly well emotionally. A date -- I don't even think I would know how to go on one anymore. Your story made me chuckle.

I'll try and check in more often as I am wondering how you are and what's happening in your life.

Hi Guys, Yes FBOW I know. I think after so long I will always love my H too, just not 'that' way anymore and that's OK now. I fought acceptance for a long time. I had to be ready to say it was over. Noone else can do that for you or push you to it. I needed space to decide this and it was not easy, because my pride, too, did not want to let go. Now I see that it was worth it. The months of pain and trying. I am at peace with what I did to save the marriage and noone can take it away. I don't have any 'what if's' at all. I'm really excited about things now, now I can see how unhappy I was before, but I was in denial.

ITs good you are getting out on your own, whether your H returns to you or not this is great for you to do for yourself. Good on you!

Maybe you are repeating yourself a lot, and maybe to some it is boring - its obviously boring to you, but its good to get it out and sometimes to do that you have to keep going over the story until your done. I journalled heaps.

USH - yes my H decided to sign over the car as I pointed out that by trying to hold me to ransom by making me agree on all financials was controlling and manipulative. I told him that if he felt I was trying to rip him off I would refer all dealings to my lawyer and he should do the same. So the car is in my name now, which is a good feeling, but its still all part of the assets. Now my lawyer wants me to negotiate a 50/50 split with him (he wants 55/45 - his way of course). So we shall see, if he won't agree I will ask for 52/48, so as to avoid going to court, its not worth fighting over - emotionally or financially. I just want to be free of it all now.

It feels OK to be getting dv. Not happy, but I'm OK with it. Don't rush your decision, it will come, just look at the facts as they stand now and decide on that.

Yesterday I went on a 'Wine Workshop' - how to pick wines, you know all the business about nose, tasting, colour, etc. I decided that I will stick to just drinking them for pleasure rather than trying to analyse them!

Today I'm not sure what I'm doing yet. Whereever the wind takes me is my standard response these days.

Work still drives me stark raving mad. I had no idea of the level of politics in some of these places. At least now I know how to distract myself from these problems and leave them (mostly) at work

Take care all.

Hi Liz,
There's probably not much I can do for you these days, but it is good to hear about how you are doing.

I still pray for you too. I ask that you be taken care of, and that you get help in the things you do so they will bring you happiness. I also ask that you will know when you meet the right person, and won't have to wonder.

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
I'm really excited about things now, now I can see how unhappy I was before, but I was in denial.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Liz - in many ways, this says it for me, too.

Continued good fortune for you. Please keep us posted.

Dave

Holy Cow Seahorse, where'd your thread go???

Oh here it is. Whew, I thought I had lost you for a minute there.

Wishing you well today. Tell us if you have another internet romance going. We won't tease you about it.

Hope your dog is well, and that you have been promoted and are now the boss at work, and that your H offered you 100% of the the house cause he has already made so much trouble for you and he felt guilty.

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I also ask that you will know when you meet the right person, and won't have to wonder <hr /></blockquote>- I'll answer this below

Hi guys, doing well

Work continues to be a pain, but I'm working on it - all boundary issues that just need practice and time. In the meantime however I have a job interview on Friday. Its in a suburb that is very close to the beach and the city, and it is a little more pay. If I get it, then plan A "Major life change" will be in action. If I don't, then I keep trying!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Tell us if you have another internet romance going. <hr /></blockquote>Nah!!! I've thought about it a lot and discussed it a lot and I've come to the conclusion that the only way to find 'the one' is to meet lots of people and learn about what I do and don't want, then when 'the one' comes along (hopefully) I will know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> We won't tease you about it. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hope your dog is well <hr /></blockquote>Yes he is thank you.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> and that you have been promoted and are now the boss at work <hr /></blockquote>No I haven't
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> H offered you 100% of the the house cause he has already made so much trouble for you and he felt guilty. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I think he is avoiding me at the moment. Half of me dosen't care, the other wants this over and done with - the sensible part knows this has to happen very soon.

I went on a night dive last Friday night, it was scarey but fantastic. It was the first dive in a while, now I want to get out there again. Sigh, so much to do, and not enough time and money. Oh well, that makes you enjoy it even more!

I hope you are all well.

Seahorse -- Wishing you best of luck on that new job/your interview.

It's snowing here. We are expected to get more than two feet of snow in 48 hours. The beach is sounding pretty good to me.

Sorry to hear that WH is dragging his feet, but since he's a conflict avoider I suppose that is to be expected.

I was so glad to hear that you'd gone on a night dive and that you thought it was a terrific experience.

No news for me as I am still married to the world's foremost conflict avoider.

Hi guys, I had my interview yesterday. It seemed to go well, it is a better job ($$) in a good location, but I think even if they offer it to me I am not going to take it. I don't think I would be happy in it and I get a funny feeling about the boss. Its a little disappointing, but I've decided that from now on, I'm not going to settle for less than I deserve in any area of my life, I guess this is boundaries?

USH, I'm glad to hear from you. How are you doing, I can't seem to find an update from you. Has anything changed?

Bye guys

{{{{{{{{{{{BIG HUGS!!!}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Should I even say "How are you" ? I just got caught up on your post! WOW! I noticed we both did something in November. You decided it was over and I hired a lawyer. Still on a similar track.

Although it would appear since you had more contact with your H you tried much harder and much longer than I did. I think we both have such nurturing forgiving souls we really don't want to give up no matter what. But I have come to realize I have my life to live and I have given up too much on someone who is not willing to put effort into saving our M. Thus I'm catching a train to bitter divorceeville. No not me! I don't think I am bitter. Please If I sound it, smack me!!

I am doing great! Very happy! Still going out and grabbing life by the horns so to speak. Going to NYC and skiing alot. Not seeing anyone although I have been taking notes. Now that I realize my needs I know it is going to be tough to find someone with the qualifications. Very scary to start over but a fresh start looks more appealing to me than an ugly repair.

You sound as resilient and strong as ever. How is your darling dog? Very well I hope and pray. And your Dad? Great as well I hope.

Got any ideas for new and exciting hobbies? I'm looking for some motivating ideas. The diving sounds great. I went to Jamacia in December for a friends wedding and went on a good dive. Unfortunately the gear was defective and my dive was cut short. But I look forward to going away again someday. Funds are very TIGHT. Paycheck to paycheck right now. Kind of scared but not ready to ask anyone for help. We will see what happens.

I will try to look in on you more often sorry I have been away so long. But I think of you often and pray for us all!

Hang in there you sound great! Good luck with the house and job as well as the ugly D stuff. You are farther along than I am.
Much Love and Peace,
Forgiver

Hi again, {{{{{{{Forgiver}}}}}}. Its so nice to see you back again! I'm glad you are doing well.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have come to realize I have my life to live and I have given up too much on someone who is not willing to put effort into saving our M. <hr /></blockquote>Yep, that's it, isn't it? Like you I've got a long list of qualities and 'requirements' one of those is that he shows to me I am worth it. I won't compromise on that for anyone now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Thus I'm catching a train to bitter divorceeville. No not me! I don't think I am bitter. Please If I sound it, smack me!!
<hr /></blockquote>Hey, your allowed to be angry but I can't see you being bitter. ITs a very unattractive quality in anyone.

Dog and dad are both doing so well. Well enough to be driving me crazy at times! (But I love them both).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Got any ideas for new and exciting hobbies? <hr /></blockquote>Dirt bike riding? or 'bush bashing' as we Aussies call it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Funds are very TIGHT. Paycheck to paycheck right now. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I know what you mean, I am having a couple of problems there and will be glad when our finances are separate and I have more control over my money.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You are farther along than I am <hr /></blockquote>Funny, I feel like I'm in a holding pattern right now. Its frustrating, and being the inpatient person I am I want everything to hurry up! I do think H being here helped me 'get over it'. Back in November, when I made that decision that it was over, that was it. Nothing will change my mind now. And its OK...

Hugs and love to all...

Hi Liz,
Thanks for the kind wishes, you always have been a real lady.
You are also a pretty tough gal, and everytime I think about your future, I see you as being happy and doing well ( but not without troubles.) I think you still need to increase your faith in yourself a bit more, but I just get the feeling you will soon be doing much better.

It's good to hear from you Forgiver, glad you are still getting better as you go along.

SS

Hi SS and thank you, maybe I have been conditioned to not believe in myself, maybe my H reinforced that over the years. I am doing my best right now and the situation has deteriorated over the last 48 hours.

H organised for the bank to stop my credit card. It is attached to the loan. I explained to him (quite forcefully) that while I do not disagree, in principle, with what he is doing, I wish he had spoken to me so I could prepare. I was very angry, but didn't loose control. I told him that if in future he did something like that without consulting me I would do the same from then on.

He told me that I would not be able to survive on my wage by myself - he said it with delight. I was so hurt. He dosen't care. That hurts. Today he tells me he does care and didn't mean to hurt me, but its all too late.

Anyway, all that aside he has agreed to most of my terms of the split, which was a surprise actually. I did better than I expected, but in any case the point is its coming to an end.

I didn't realise it could still hurt that much, its not been a fun 48 hours for me at all. I said my bit to him, but its just all too much. How did we get here?

I need to stop this now because its making me sad again. I am reducing the price on the house tomorrow-closer to a sale?

It really sux
SH

Dear Seahorse,
sorry to hear about your last 48hrs and the powerplay tricks your H is pulling on you.
He obviously noticed how strong, independent and determined you became.
How disappointing it is though that he can make difficult splitting process hostile on top of sad.
Seahorse, I know that you will be able to handle it.
FBOW

Hi FBOW, thanks for your support. I have no choice but to handle it really. I didn't realise there were still some feelings for him simmering beneath the surface. It was a surprise that it would still hurt this much. I've been here before, I know what to do.

Looking forward to a relaxing Friday eve and weekend. Taking it easy.

Hugs to all

Hi Liz,
I can't pretend that I understand what he is thinking. The things he has done are so foreign to me - and to you also that we don't have a clue as to what is going on in his head.

I wanted to talk about you a little bit. We get to know people here quite well but there are things sometimes that supprise us. I remember when you posted one day and said that up until plan B you had been having conversations with H daily and that it had been enjoyable for you. That was a shocker for me. I failed to realize the bond you still maintained and what it meant to you. I learned from that how important conversation was to you ( and probalby closely assoiated are admiration and affection.) I didn't realize what plan B would mean.

Now I wonder how you are doing without that conversation. I wonder how you get that need filled. I hope you have close friends that can help. Dogs help a great deal, but it's not always the same. Dads, well they are dads.

After all this background, here is a question for you. In light of what I have brought up, how are you doing now with these things?

I don't want to see you stuck in the whirlpool of needing something you don't dare go after. Are you learning to cope with the feelings you are having now, or are you still really empty and feeling lost much of the time?

I am not trying to give you direction so much as I am trying to help you understand if you need direction. I know you will be dealing with some of the problems he created for some time. ( the home, getting credit in your name, etc.) I just wonder about your emotional health and what steps you are taking to improve that - or if I should even be worried.

Cheers from the sumny southwest USA.

SS

Hi SS your question made me stop to think about where I'd been getting these needs filled. Yes, conversation, admiration and affection and recreation and all important needs to me.

Conversation: friends mainly, journaling and nothing much else.

Admiration: my friends and family have been very kind. Other than that I just have to find it in myself.

Affection: well, that's non-existant

Recreation companionship: again, friends or by myself.

Re the conversation, well, I guess I've leaned a lot on friends, and people at work, which hasn't always been wise. I wish I had someone to chat to tonight, things have really got on top of me and I'm feeling a bit low. Maybe its because I'm coming up to a year of separation and the stuff that's happened over the last few days, but I've been grieving a lot the last week.

Work continues to be so busy, I worked back tonight and cried all the way home - I'm so tired and fed up because I've been working so hard and trying to cope with the house crap. When I got home there was a letter from the bank saying we were now three repayments behind and they would take legal action, yipee! just what I needed. I'm so fed up with the crap that's come from this and with having too much to do. My brain is so overloaded it wanders and I'm becoming so forgetful.

I've been trying to distract myself with other things (I've decided to start dating and had another one on the weekend), but I think I just need all this house stuff over, for work to slow down and to have a bit of a holiday. I'm praying for it to come soon. ANyway, I'll survive, I really have no choice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
Admiration: my friends and family have been very kind. Other than that I just have to find it in myself.<hr /></blockquote>And what about us? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

HELLO!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wish I had someone to chat to tonight <hr /></blockquote>Well you can join us we are there almost every night

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=009877#000000

I always want to open with "good morning" but one never knows when their post will be read, so I don't ever say it.

How about Greetings and salutations !
You know, I have to give you credit for something. One of your posts last fall when you were really struggling was to FBOW telling her good look in getting support on the forum. She had not been getting many replies for a while. I was going along posting to a few people as length and didn't feel I had more time I could spend, so I wasn't responding very often to anyone else. After reading your post, I made a goal to get around a little more to others, and I began to post to FBOW. It has been good for me to get out more ( so to speak) and I have learned much from FBOW and from Sue. So, thanks for that comment, you sparked that change for me. I just hope I do some good as I go around.

Now, along with that, you have been a great help to others also. I think sometimes as I watch and read that when marriages turn toward D some posters feel like they are not much help, but I want to tell you that you have been and still can be helpful to many. WAT is a good example of this and so is Redhat. They are great help because of what they have learned. So, anyway, I just wanted you to know that I admire your ability and feel you too should keep helping when you can.

Re the conversation, well, I guess I've leaned a lot on friends, and people at work, which hasn't always been wise. I wish I had someone to chat to tonight, things have really got on top of me and I'm feeling a bit low.

I kind of thought you probably feel this way quite often. All of us do at some time or other but after your conversation comment I realized that it was so important to you that you kept talking to H even as he continued to hurt you. I hope you address this one and that you can safely meet this need without endangering yourself emotionally. Please be careful, you are too important a person to be careless and get hurt again.

Maybe its because I'm coming up to a year of separation and the stuff that's happened over the last few days, but I've been grieving a lot the last week. Work continues to be so busy, I worked back tonight and cried all the way home - I'm so tired and fed up because I've been working so hard and trying to cope with the house crap.
Yes, and no one to lean on. I feel really bad for you but I know I can't help much. By the time you read this you will probably feel much better but I know hard times come and go. I told Sue once that when I am down I just pretend things are better or will be soon, and they often are. It sounds silly, but any port in a storm. It helps me.

When I got home there was a letter from the bank saying we were now three repayments behind and they would take legal action, yipee! just what I needed. I'm so fed up with the crap that's come from this and with having too much to do. My brain is so overloaded it wanders and I'm becoming so forgetful.
If it was me, I could say I'm just getting old. You can't say that, so look at the bright side.

I've been trying to distract myself with other things (I've decided to start dating and had another one on the weekend), but I think I just need all this house stuff over, for work to slow down and to have a bit of a holiday. I'm praying for it to come soon.

Please be careful. I see often someone saying that we learn so much here at MB that we know what we want and have high expectations when dating begins. There is another side to this. We know things can be very good, and we have tools to make it so and so I see people sometimes are not careful because they believe their knowledge will make things work out for them. You still need to take things slow, think about what you are doing and consider what you find before diving in. Never dive into shallow water or unknown water without checking it out first.
You can laugh if you want, I know you already know this stuff, just a reminder I suppose.

ANyway, I'll survive, I really have no choice.
We want to see much more than just survival. We want to see Extreme Happiness. I do agree that you are a survivor, I could never see it any other way than that.

Hope this day is a better one for you.

SS

Hi WAT, Matilde and SS,

Doing OK. Thought I had a buyer for the house but it fell through, which was disappointing but I sort of knew that it wasn't going to work out. Intuition thing.

The bank is still breathing down my neck and H seems to be very illusive everytime I need to discuss these matter with him.

Apparently the offer the lawyer has received from H dosen't match up with what he said.

Work is sooooo busy. I'm nearly at my wits end, its just all too much.
sigh....

I keep telling myself things will get better.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Seahorse:
Admiration: my friends and family have been very kind. Other than that I just have to find it in myself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what about us? <hr /></blockquote>Yes WAT, I consider you all my friends now. You all know so much about me and are still here even after I get stroppy so you must be my friends, right? I hope so anyway.

Matilde, I will join in. Can anyone join?

SS - <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Now, along with that, you have been a great help to others also. I think sometimes as I watch and read that when marriages turn toward D some posters feel like they are not much help, but I want to tell you that you have been and still can be helpful to many. WAT is a good example of this and so is Redhat. They are great help because of what they have learned. So, anyway, I just wanted you to know that I admire your ability and feel you too should keep helping when you can.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, I feel like I don't have much right to help really,yes I do have a lot to offer and I can see the struggles in people but I guess this is something I've always struggled with (feeling that what I have to offer to others IS significant). But I get your message and I will help out when I can. I guess I feel worn out right now, but maybe helping other will help get me past that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I hope you address this one and that you can safely meet this need without endangering yourself emotionally. Please be careful, you are too important a person to be careless and get hurt again. <hr /></blockquote>YEs I know what you are getting at I can see it could happen if I'm not careful.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I told Sue once that when I am down I just pretend things are better or will be soon, and they often are. It sounds silly, but any port in a storm. It helps me. <hr /></blockquote>I still have others that can help, I have a friend in QLD who I've become very close too. We are helping each other. We speak once a week for three hours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> at a time, but it really helps a lot. When things are bad I just keep telling myself that its temporary and that things keep changing and that I can deal with it. It still hurts, I still feel down but i can pick myself up mostly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You still need to take things slow, think about what you are doing and consider what you find before diving in. Never dive into shallow water or unknown water without checking it out first.
You can laugh if you want, I know you already know this stuff, just a reminder I suppose.
<hr /></blockquote>You sound like my dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
You know when I first started dating I thought about what I wanted from it. I realise though that the only way to know when "the one" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> comes along is to find out what I do and don't like in men and to meet lots of people. I know what your saying and I really am touched that you are worried.

The way I see it, if I wait until I'm perfect to start dating its never going to happen. I have to risk getting hurt, I can't keep living in fear. This is a real learning curve to because I am learning in small steps to say no to what I don't want. Its not easy but I'm learning.

I know I tend to be impatient. I want it all now and its my downfall and my undoing. my plan is that fairly early after meeting someone I will let them know I need to take things slow, if they can't respect then i need to walk away - that will be hard in some cases I imagine.

Does this make you feel a little more reassured SS? Am I making sense?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hope this day is a better one for you. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, saw my dad and washed my car and finally prepared myself a proper budget - I've been avoiding it.

My dog is well but slowing down, he's getting old but still a little beacon in my life, except at 7am on a Saturday morning when he comes in to wake me up, then the beacon gets sent back to where he came from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi Sea,
I am finding it hard to get around lately in a timely manner. I am sorry that after I ask you questions and you answered, I am so long is responding.

I'm sorry about the continued problems with the house. These things weigh on our minds and sap our strength and often there is nothing we can do to hasten the conclusion. I wonder sometimes if WS adds to these problems on purpose - it seems to be their nature as they continue to disrespect and cause pain for the BS.

Yes, I feel like I don't have much right to help really, yes I do have a lot to offer and I can see the struggles in people but I guess this is something I've always struggled with (feeling that what I have to offer to others IS significant). But I get your message and I will help out when I can. I guess I feel worn out right now, but maybe helping other will help get me past that.

Again, only when you can. I am thinking of some of your posts to others and now thankful they were for the help. You have a sharp mind, and a great empathy for others that shows in your posts when you help. Never think you don't have anything to give.

I still have others that can help, I have a friend in QLD who I've become very close too. We are helping each other. We speak once a week for three hours at a time, but it really helps a lot. When things are bad I just keep telling myself that its temporary and that things keep changing and that I can deal with it. It still hurts, I still feel down but i can pick myself up mostly.
I am very glad you have this friend. I do believe you can deal with things, but that doesn't mean your life will be stress free, and easy. It still hurts.

You sound like my dad
I'm just about old enough to be your dad !! Perhaps it's not all bad that I sound like him. You know that he cares about you.

You know when I first started dating I thought about what I wanted from it. I realise though that the only way to know when "the one" comes along is to find out what I do and don't like in men and to meet lots of people.
I don't really worry that you need someone to tell you how to date, It's just that I can see you want and need companionship, and I worry that because you hurt it may obscure your vision. I probably shouldn't worry, but I do. ( Have I said that before?? LOL !! )

I know what your saying and I really am touched that you are worried. The way I see it, if I wait until I'm perfect to start dating its never going to happen. I have to risk getting hurt, I can't keep living in fear. This is a real learning curve to because I am learning in small steps to say no to what I don't want. Its not easy but I'm learning. I know I tend to be impatient. I want it all now and its my downfall and my undoing. My plan is that fairly early after meeting someone I will let them know I need to take things slow, if they can't respect then i need to walk away - that will be hard in some cases I imagine. Does this make you feel a little more reassured SS? Am I making sense?
Really, this is what I wanted to know. Thank you for making me feel better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Liz, you really don't have to answer me, or anyone else if you don't want to. I am not sure why we care about people that we only know by a few words we read here on MB. Somehow I am glad that we do. It makes life more full to know that even with all the bad we all cope with, there is good that offsets it. It is hard sometimes to express care and concern without sounding like someone's dad, but at least that's safe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

............. saw my dad and washed my car and finally prepared myself a proper budget - I've been avoiding it. My dog is well but slowing down, he's getting old but still a little beacon in my life, except at 7am on a Saturday morning when he comes in to wake me up, then the beacon gets sent back to where he came from.

My dog sleeps in the Garage, so I don't have to worry about that. I admit, you made me laugh.
Ours is 12 now, and for a Golden Retriever that is getting up there. His brother from the same liter died last fall, so I wonder how long he has. When he was younger he was in the house more but we had twins and he kept knocking them down trying to play with them so he got to live outside. It's nice to have a dog around - I think it's good for us.

The short version of all this is that I wanted you to know I wasn't trying to grill you, or lecture you. I just care about how you are doing. It does sound like you are being careful and that you are reasonally happy and I can live with that if you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

Seahorse - I just composed a long post to you and then hit some button and lost the reply. Ugh.

Thank you for checking in with me in the ongoing thread with Elad. I am still in a state of limbo, but am reconciled and actually ok with getting a divorce. I am at the point where I do not envision reconciliation and am imagining what my life will be like in the future without WH. Thinking about where I will live (I cannot afford the house I am in alone) and actually thinking about other men/the possibility of someone else in my life.

It sounds as if you are in the same place and that you are doing remarkably well. I am sure, like me, you still get sad from time to time, but that you have embraced a new life.

I hope you keep posting. It seems you are a few steps ahead of me and it helps me to read what you are doing and how you are feeling. It has really helped me feel as if I am going to be ok.

It is spring here and the first flowers are blooming and the trees blossoming. My outlook is so different than it was last spring.

I found your thread, and clicked to post, and I grinned the biggest grin. When I think of you now, I think of you as doing much better. Not that you don't have troubles, but you also have skills that you didn't have before. I know you still have bad days, but I don't think the pain can destroy you or cause as much harm as it once did.

Just checking in to see if you are tucked in and sleeping soundly.

SS

With some, silence means they are doing well, but this time with you, I wonder.

Is it still a hard fight?

SS

Hi All,

Sorry SS, I forget that you worry about me. My dad does the same if I forget to ring in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, what a week!

I recieved the D papers, signed them and sent them back. My marriage will officially end on the 24th June. I've chosen to be present at the hearing - just one of those silly things I need to do to make sure that I realise the marriage is over. (I have a tendency to go into denial about things like that in case you didn't notice).

Anyway...

I had a buyer for the house a couple of weeks ago - she couldn't get the finance and it fell through.

Then I had another buyer last week - they couldn't get the finance and it fell through yesterday.

Then a couple came last night and I have another buyer - hopefully these ones will be OK.

Its sad and good at the same time. I am very relieved that the situation will soon be over (if this sale does go ahead), as I have been getting very stressed with it all.

The last two weeks haven't been so good for me. I suspect its like a one year anniversary thing - both the separation (which was 8/4) and then mum's death (30/4). Anyway I made it through. I'm just tired. I'm very worn out from all this as I feel that life is just too chaotic right now.

Work is extremely busy and very stressful. I have been saying no and telling my boss my situation but things aren't improving. I am still looking for another job, as I figure its time to move on in all respects now - major life change.

Still doing my Salsa classes. Did a dive a few weeks ago, doing the yoga, etc. Even had another two dates - one went well, one didn't. And yes SS I'm being careful and drawing boundaries! YAY for me!

Its all happening.

I saw H last weekend, he came out to mow the lawn. He has put on heaps of weight, which really shocked me. I've never seen him like this. I thought that if something like this happened I'd feel good, you know, like "see, he's not happy", but actually I felt really sad and sorry for him as I still care a great deal for him. Its a strange feeling.

What? Me worry?

Can I talk about that?

After a person has had as many troubles as you have had, it is hard for them to know what is normal. You know a lot of my reasons for worry, even better than I do.

I can see the up's and downs continue. In fact, the only things that remain steady in your life are your dad, your own ability to cope, and God's willingness to help if things go too far. You do much better now than even November or December.

I can see that you are doing better by the comments you make. You don't need as much help now as you once did, and you will get to be like Forgiver and not really need us. I am glad you have support from flesh and blood friends you get to see and talk to. That is important.

I don't mean to tell you want to do, or how to do things, but I say what I do because I want you to be happy. Most of all, I hope you have faith in yourself, because it is right for someone as good as you are to have faith in them self. Your H's failures are not your failures. We all have to deal with failures in life, and it is how we do it that makes us into the person we want to be. You are becomming that better person you wanted to become, but everything costs.

All the best.

SS

Hi All,
Yes SS its true, somedays normal is ???? somedays that's ok, others I feel like a fish (seahorse) out of water... lol, what a pun.

Again, somedays I have faith and others I have to try really hard to have faith.

We are exchanging contracts for the house this weekend, we have nearly reached an agreement on the financial settlement. I saw ex-H tonight and I know that it is best I am not with him - he really is heading down a path that's not for me. His idea of fun is a strip club with mates, drinking and late nights and golf. Mine is SCUBA diving, surfing, visiting new places, catching up with family, going out with friends and dates, pampering myself at home, playing with the dog, planning holidays, going to yoga, going to dance classes, need I go on? I enjoy my life - although sometimes I overdo it and get tired and grumpy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Anyway, things are moving along and it won't be long before I am packing up and moving back to where I started!

I'm still doing a lot of 'head' work, trying to find out who I am, where I should go (to live and with work), what I like and how to be 'me'. Its very hard sometimes - you don't always like what you find or discover about yourself and who you really are. Sometimes you fight it and want to be something else, but you have to get real.

Anyway, mother's day this weekend, and I will visit the grave. I know she's with me.

SH

Hello Seahorse -- I wanted you to know I was thinking you today and your visiting your mum's grave.

You sound well in this last post. I would give anything to be able to go out and have a pint or a margarita with you and share stories. I think I am finally ready for a divorce. I don't get as sad about it as I used to and seeing WH just leaves me feeling worn out and frustrated.

We've come to agreement on not selling the house until next spring. The positive on this decision is it gives me time to figure out where I'm going to live/what I'm going to do. The negative is that it still provides some attachment to WH, which is probably not a healthy thing right now. The house is very old and I love it, but it takes some constant hard labor that WH wants to do and I need him to do -- I'm just trying to figure out how to make that happen when I am not there.

We have agreed on the disposition of assets, but WH has yet to share the financial documents necessary to file. We were trying to save money by filing jointly with no issues, but this cannot happen without these last pieces of paperwork. I've given myself a deadline of end of May to see if he provides it or I will file alone. Yuck.

Where will you be moving? What is happening with your job?

Happy Mothers Day -- I know that may seem an odd thing to say since your mother is no longer here, but I think she'd like you to remember the happiness she gave you in her life today.

Peace.

Seahorse,
You are a very thoughtful person. I don't know if you have always been, of if you learned it from the experiances of the last year or so.

I could comment quite a bit about all that you said, but I will limit it to this.

When you look, find someone thoughtful that wants to know that side of you. I don't know if golf will do it this time round. Even when you find the right peson, the journey is often still uphill in a storm, but it's nice to have someone to lean on when you are tired.

I hope your mum does look after you, they do it best, here or there, it doesn't seem to matter.

I continue prayer in your behalf for a better, happier life.

SS

Hi USH and SS.
USH I am shocked to hear about your father. I posted on your thread, but just know I'm thinking of you.

Well, the exchange of contracts for the house went through yesterday. Settlement will be eight weeks. I am glad its happened, even though I know this is going to hurt. I am ready, I am scared, but I've been through worse so I'll face it and deal with it as best I can.

Seemed to have reached a final financial agreement with H. That hurt too. I told him that the way he treats me is not acceptable and I don't think I can be his friend in these circumstances. It was very painful.

I'm surviving, its nearly over. Then it will be onward and upward and I'm as scared as hell.

SH

I'm surviving, its nearly over. Then it will be onward and upward and I'm as scared as hell.

It's our view of things that makes us afraid, not actual events.

Lets go back to say - about a week before you knew about any of this. Your world was about to cave in but you didn't know it so you weren't afraid.

Let's say things are about to go well for you now, but you don't realize it, so you are still afraid.

It's only the view from where you sit that makes you fear defeat, life is full of many aisles, so why don't you change your seat? ( Anonymous)

Examine what you have been able to do so far, and please realize that you have what it takes to make it. I know it's not a cure all, but it should help.

His rejection still affects your self-image - but it won't have that power forever.

You have more power than you think, find a way to turn it on.

Hello SS and other lurkers (FBOW are you still about?)

Well, firstly, I am less stressed now the contracts have exchanged. Its weird, I know that moving is going to hurt but at the same time I'm excited because there's a growing awareness that I could do almost anything (which is kind of what your saying, isn't it SS?). I just have to a) trust myself and b) be courageous.

Thanks for your words SS, I am getting that message in one form or another from all sorts of places at the moment. I know that fear is and always has stopped me doing many things in my life. The difference is now I am aware of it and now I feel that I have not a lot to loose and probably more to gain if I take certain risks or if I am faced by certain situations.

Our property settlement (between H & I) will be settled by the end of the week.

USH, If you check in here I wonder how you are?

Seahorse:

You came on here about the same time I did. I think you've done remarkably in the time you've been here.

My bet? Your strength will outpace your fears!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-2long

Thanks 2long, your support is appreciated.

No update really. 7 weeks and I'm outta here.
Next week will sign property settlement.

Went diving today but its raining and miserable here and didn't see a great deal although I had fun.

All is well.

I hope that all is well still holds up.

I am still at work, and have to go home andpack up to leave early tomorrow, so I am not doing anyone much good for a few days. You sounded better, I am glad.

You sound so well in fact, that I don't know how I can help right now, so I'll just leave you and trust you to continue to improve.

Merry Christmas, and happy new year.

FBOW, I'll get round soon. I think you are in recovery. Do you?

SS

Hi Liz,

Just checking in, so you know someone is out here. Not looking for anything really, wondering how you are doing, hoping for the best.

I sat for a minute, and thought, but nothing else comes to me right now.

SS

You must be OK.

SO I'LL TRY NOT TO WORRY ABOUT YOU.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
SS

[ June 11, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hi SS and all. I am doing well, just tired from packing boxes. I've got just under 4 weeks to go now. I moved some stuff to dad's today.

Besides packing I've been diving once (and probably won't again now as winter has arrived!), and doing weekly Salsa classes, which is fun.

Still problems at work that I'm being unwillinging dragged into fighting other people's battles - it involves the union and worker's comp to do with bullying and harassment - I really don't need this and I'm absolutely fed up with it. Sometimes, people need to know what battles to fight and which one's to let go. Urgghhh! I'm going to try to get out of it - I have my life to get on with, not muck around with people who can't forgive.

Anyway, that's another story again and I don't want to bore you.

I've two weeks till my divorce, that will be awful, but closure.

Keep well all.
Liz

Hi Seahorse,
You seem to deal well with problems around you, and I wish you you will get your "closure" and from that it may will be easier. I know you learned and earned your approach to problem identifying and solving. I admire you for that.
You will decide about the job too, when the time comes. Not everything at once.
I find it easier in my situation to understand what happened, what's happening, and what will probably happen. I am still far from accepting parts of it. It is probably true the sooner I'd do it, the better.
Anyway, keep up with your fun activities too, and cherish your relationship with Dad. We celebrate Father's day tomorrow, so all the best to him and you.

Have good, even if busy, weekend.
FBOW

Hi Guys, I'll be really brief as I've got heaps to do...

Basically I made a mistake with the settlement date and have now had to vacate two weeks earlier. Although it caused a fair bit a stress, its working out OK and means I get my new life sooner, so I'm dealing with it.

Tomorrow I will offically be divorced and single again. c'est la vie!

Doggy is a little stressed with all the moving action, but I'm sure he'll be fine. He gets to spend long days with my dad from Wednesday on!

Other than this, I am well and no other news - gosh do you need any more?

I may be away for a while till I get my computer set up at dad's so....

cya!
Liz

Change is always.........
Change is always ........well, it's ........... shoot, it's lots of things.

It can be fun, but not always. It is usually a learning experiance, but sometimes we learn things we never wanted to know.

I believe you will make it positive. I think YOU can do that. Some people can't.

I do get the feeling that you are going on with life and don't intend to let it get you down.

Spend some time with your Dad while you have the chance. He won't always be here, and if you don't now, it may haunt you later. I don't know your Dad, but he must be a pretty good sort of person, or I don't think you would be quite what you are now.

Mexico - I was there Tuesday but only for a few hours on business. It can be a fun place. I hope you enjoy yourself.
If you end up visiting the Grand Canyon, ( north rim) come by and see us, the wife and I will buy you lunch.

SS

[ June 27, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hugs To you {{{{{{SEAHORSE}}}}}} and everyone else!

I had to drag our posts out and dust them off. Mine more than yours.

Wow! I just finished catching up with you! Is it official yet????!!!! Are you FREE??!!!!!

I can not wait to see how you are doing. I hope it feels like a weight has been lifted or the clouds have cleared. I'm sure you are upset but I know I feel like a black cloud follows me with my H's name on it. I can not wait to get closure and move on.

I am glad to hear you are busy. I hope your move went well. SS is right enjoy this precious time with your Dad. Get to know him again.
Give your dog a big hug and kiss from me.

Someday I hope we get to meet.

Please come back soon and let us know how you are! I am thinking about you!
Love,
Forgiver

Hi Liz,

I don't expect a diary, but let us know when you have loose ends tied up, and it would be nice to know your boss didn't chew you up and spit you out. I expect you have dated more, and we - um, we, well, we are CONCERNED.

( was that the best way to show we care?)

Want to know that you are emotionally healthy, and reasonally happy - considering what is happening to you.

SS

Sometimes I get to thinking, even though it is hard for someone with my limited capacity.

I was thinking about you today - wondering how the job is treating you. Hoping you get along with your Dad Ok. I suspect you have nothing new to report, and maybe there is still some pain associated with relationships issues.

I just wanted to continue encouraging you. It's good that you make plans and go on to your life. I still think you will have a mostly happy life. It may take another year for your emotions to settle down ( and you may be there right now, and I just don't know it yet) but I believe your life will be rewarding and happy for the most part.

One of the hard things for me is applying the lessions I learn here. Old habbits are hard to kill. New ones hard to train into being.

Keep thinking about things, keep working to make them better. Keep believing.

Later Edit
BTW, I know this is your thread, and that I am a guest here. I just came by to say hi, and don't expect you to post back. ( not always sure why I get the feeling to post to someone.) Just so you know.

SS

[ July 25, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hi Guys!

(((((((Forgiver)))))) - I was stoked to read your post (that's good by the way). I'm so happy that you are happy. You deserve the absolute best and I think of you and wonder how you do. I may be heading US/Sth America way at the end of the year - I will keep posting anyway about what I'm doing. My Dog got that hug from you by the way.

Yes I am free now. My D was finalised on the 25th of July. The day went by quietly. I peped myself up with a glass of champagne and a soak in a warm bath. I was gentle with myself. It still makes me sad to think about it, but I know I am better off. I am happy more than I'm sad, hopeful more than scared and even have times when I feel utter joy in being alive.

SS - you are like a caring father. Yes I'm with my dad. We are having some settling in issues, but I'm working it out. Dad has been depressed for a while and wants me to take him out a lot. I love my dad and I do some things with him, but I'm a 32 year old woman and he is a 76 year old man and we have very different interests. I feel very guilty at times when he wants to come along to things and I cannot take him, but this is about boundaries and balance. He needs to find friends his age and who have the same interests. So I'm leading by example.

He loves my dog and takes him walking each day- so the dog gets two walks and has someone home for most of the day - it would seem the dog has benefitted majorly from the situation.

Personally, I am having a ball. I'm out and about and like Forgiver (the pioneer) I have increased my circle of friends somewhat. I have found 'my thing' in Salsa dancing - I enjoy it tremendously and will be trying out for the advanced class this week. I still SCUBA dive, but its winter here so I've not gone for a while - I'm absolutely itching to go for a dive!

Well SS, I haven't had a date in a few months, mainly because of the move and that I haven't been putting myself out there in that way. The way I was going about it just wasn't working for me, so I'm doing what I enjoy and seeing what comes up from that. There is a person I'm interested in and I'm fairly sure he's interested, but I need things to move slowly and darn it, he has to chase me, so I'm just going to be me and hopefully it will drive him nuts enough to to do that. (Does this sound like a new Seahorse?) After all the years of not being single its a big adjustment and I'm learning, sometimes the hard way.

Work's still not great SS. I am looking seriously for another job as things are not changing and this is not working for me anymore.

I have to go but I will be back soon. Take Care all

Seahorse -- I am so glad you posted. I've just been lurking every once in awhile and was so relieved to read your post to hear that you are ok.

You sound well and that the 25th went by with just some residual sadness.

I have prepared the initial paperwork to file for a divorce and will have it delivered to my WH tomorrow. He was in another country for almost the entire month of July with the OW. I also heard that the OW pitched a fit when my WH came to my father's funeral -- what a selfish @#TCH. Even if we were divorced I think he would still come as he did love and respect my father.

I haven't seen WH in almost two months and told him to stop communicating with me after he sent me the letter while on vacation with OW stating he did not really want to pursue a divorce and he still loved me. Too much drama and too painful.

The whole thing makes me sad, but no longer makes me incapacitated.

I am hopefully going to get to meet Elad next week if all works out and we can connect while I am on vacation. I would love to meet you too sometime.

I just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you and am so happy that you are on the road to your new life -- it will be full of love and happiness, I just know it. I can feel it.

Best to you.

Hi Seahorse,

Just so you know, I still think about you. Not likely we would forget.

Salsa Dancing, hmmmmmm, I think I'm more like your dad on that one. I could watch though.
Do they let wheelchairs on the sidelines?

Just kidding, I have 4 sons between the ages of 17 and 25 and they expect me to do things with them. No rest for the wicked. The latest thing is full suspension mountain bikes. Oh well.

I was glad to see balance in your last post. I don't worry as much - but still pray for you.

I sit and think some more, and get a calm feeling about you. It feels good.

SS

Getting close now. I was thinking about it yesterday.

My dog passed away a few weeks ago. He was almost 12, but big dogs are usually not as long lived as small ones. He was fine in July, and by the end of August he was gone. I am glad he did not linger in bad health. Somehow it bothered me more than I thought it would. That's about as much as I've said about me, isn't it. I had better go on.

I believe you are doing well. I believe you must have processed things by now, and are healing emotionally. I am sure you will have a good life if you continue to do what you have learned here.

It may take time for you to come back around, I won't (try not to anyway) worry.

SS

I'll be gone the 23rd and the 24th, so I'm wishing you happy birthday now.

Happy Birthday.
Probably better if I don't sing.

SS

Hi Guys, sorry I've not been back for a long time, but life is one big whirlwind at the moment.

I am doing really well.

Work is very busy and I'm still looking for something else. I am dealing with the problems there although they continue to bubble and smolder.

I am off to Argentina and Mexico in 8 weeks. I cannot wait. I've not had a holiday in over a year and I very much need one.

My dancing is going fabulously (salsa). I'm in advanced class now mainly due to a pretty good teacher. I go to lessons 2 times a week and social dancing at least twice a week. I'm having an absolute ball and I know so many people now, many more than I ever had - its like a family and many people are in an 'older' age bracket and have been through a dv or break up, so its a supportive atmosphere.

There's even someone I'm quite interested in, but I'm taking things very slow! But I did raise enough courage to ask him out for coffee and he said yes. My friends were very proud of me and if nothing else comes of it I feel that it was a good exercise in overcoming fear.

SS my birthday went well although quiet. Happy Birthday to you too. I actually got a Happy Birthday email from xH - I hadn't heard from him for 3 months and there it was. I just replied with a thank you and deleted it. That part of my life is closed. It was more surprising than upsetting.

USH I hope you are well. I hope that things are turning out OK for you.

My dad and dog are both well. They enjoy each others company!

Anyway I must run.
Love you all
Liz

Seahorse:

Thanks for keeping us posted! It's so good 2 hear stories like yours from people who've had 2 DV.

Best regards,
-kid 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seahorse:
I am off to Argentina and Mexico in 8 weeks. I cannot wait. I've not had a holiday in over a year and I very much need one.<hr /></blockquote>Liz,
Any plan to keep going north ?. There are plenty of Salsa club here in SF. Beside we might have SFBayAreaMBer V by then ...

I am happy that you are recovering well.
-rh-

Hi Liz,

So good to hear from you. Wow lady, you are definitely a woman on the go. I am jealous!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad to see you moving forward. You are an encouragement to us all.

Have a fun trip and if you chance to fly by or over northern CA (look for the golden gate bridge), wave..... Lots of MBers out this way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

Merry Christmas Liz, Merry Christmas, and keep doing well.

SS