Marriage Builders®
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/23/11 05:07 PM
On a Monday night date with FWW last night, she asked me if I was happy and I said yes, and I asked her and she said yes.

I thought then it'd be appropriate to move my thread here, but I simply started this new one since we are In Recovery.

I have been incredibly introspective over the past 3 and change months. If I had a better grasp of the written word, I be able to describe things better but I will do my best. When up against some of your thoughts Ive seen in written form, my city college education cannot compete. But, nonetheless, I have a ton going on in my head.

I start my new thread with the question I had last night after my date with FWW, does anyone really recover from being betrayed in the manner we BS have?

I kept the question to myself as its rhetorical. I think.

I still love my wife. That never changed but there is this thing that will be there hanging over us. Maybe that thing gets less and less a part of our life until its no big thing.

As we sat last night over sushi and she asked me if I was happy I thought again how lucky my story is compared to most BH I read about. My wife started to rebuild our marriage about 5 minutes after I learned of her A. And, she hasnt stopped rebuilding since. No investigating, no following, none of that. Lucky. Only compensation in all its forms. I have been giving her a lot of what she says she wanted from me.

I talk more about the compensation she has made to me in later posts.

So, yes, I think one can recover from a spouse's extra marital affair. If youre happy, then youre recovering.
Mike,

Good for you and your wife! There will be rocks in the road ahead, but if you both follow the mb plan you will find success.

As for the question "Do you think anyone ever recovers from betrayal"? Personally I think yes. I think it depends in large amounts to the wayward spouse and whether or not they show just compensation for what they did along with setting a plan and following it. Another key factor I believe is that they don't trickle truth-they just are radically honest about everything.

I too was in your boat but I was continually lied to during recovery. There is no way to recover a marriage when that happens. If she would've been radically open and honest and followed the plan I know eventually we would've been ok.

It sounds like you are a changed person who will meet your w EN's and she is doing the same. Good to hear and I only wish you the best. Keep us posted. Nice to hear success stories!!!
IS's story is like many too I read.

Sure we are linked because of the betrayal we experienced, but dday snapped my wife out of a whatever she says she was gripped by.

And IS and others have not been so lucky.

I try to give pep talks and whatever advice I can muster to these guys because of our shared stories, but since I didnt have the nightmare of withdrawal and other things these other guys are faced with post dday, Im feel not qualified to advise.

Anyway, I hope some newbies take time to read my other thread because I do go thru a lot of the emotional stuff they are facing and it may give some hope.

mss
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/23/11 11:22 PM
MSS, not to get all bro-huggy, but reading your posts to T2S on his thread has been
....gratifying.....to someone who watched you dig yourself out since May!
I hope anyone who happens to fall into a situation such as ours is able to come across MB and the forum and be as benefitted from it as I have been.

I have been to the psychologist and marriage counselor and can say they dont have a clue when it comes to infidelity and survival of it.

A few days with the people here will get you on target to save your marriage or any variation thereof. But, you'll regain control of your life.

What a cheating spouse takes away is any regularity and normalness in your thought process. You lose control of your life.

Once you get that back, you can do anything.
Thought of the day:

A wife making up for wasted time is a good thing.--

mss
Summer 2011
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/24/11 02:01 PM
Lemme guess - an extra hearty breakfast?????

Because there's only two things that males would exult about: food and........oh, dear!
Yes. Breakfast sessions are good for the soul.

Id recommend them to anyone.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/24/11 02:24 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
What a cheating spouse takes away is any regularity and normalness in your thought process.



Ain't that the truth?


I was on the edge of multiple personality disorder for a bit there.

Whew.
But what WS do to themselves is worse.

(Thats a mind trick I recommend to the BS.)
Posted By: BillCarolina Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/25/11 10:44 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
But what WS do to themselves is worse.

(Thats a mind trick I recommend to the BS.)


Please explain what you mean.....I need to know.....my WW doesn't live in the home and won't even talk to me after exposure.

PS: I'm VERY envious of your recovery!
Its really just convincing YOURSELF that the WS will have to live with the burden of their adultery and the associated shame, hurt, embarassment, family issues, and all the rest of it for the rest of their life.

While us, the BS', get to live with...well, basically, all that but it wasnt us doing the cheating. Simplistic, I know, but the relationship my wife had with her guy wasnt very deep.

Bill, as I read others' threads, I feel for those whose adulterous spouses cannot pull themselves out of the fog despite going thru the MB motions. My wife, thankfully and insanely, was appartently stuck in her A and it took a moronic OM to get her out of it. No guy should learn of their wife being stuck in a relationship with another guy. Stuck. Complacent. Lazy. Stupid. My wife.

If you have the time please read my story over in SAA section. If it gives anyone hope, maybe this crap sandwich Ive been eating for amost 4 months will have some upside to it.

It aint roses and champaign over here all the time. Im still on the ride and my lows maybe just dont go as low as they once did.

I still fight the need to unload an unholy AO on her, but THAT urge is also getting way less and less. Almost non-existant. When I feel the simmer get hotter I take a walk or a ride in the car just like a day after dday. Still works.
It really helps when your FWW is 'standing on her head' to make things right.

I wish this for everyone.
Thought of the Day:

It's possible to rescue a WS from an A. I think some get engrossed in it and over time cannot get themselves out. Stuck is what she called it. Someone stuck in something is usually anxious to get out but arent sure or too scared to get out.

The basis on my recovery.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/26/11 06:46 PM
I think I can recreate the thought stream that got you there - starting with the thread by MM. As soon as I started orienting his description of his situation, it was obvious that you, and HFD (who I just "popped a flare" for) would be ideal candidates to get him started.

Do you remember on the other thread when I somewhat arrogantly placed you and HFD in the group whose WW had had an affair in which there appeared to be little or no EA to accompany the PA? I hope MM can get to a place someday in which he can appreciate that statement for his WW (and honestly, at D-day +2 would you even have cared?).

BUT, when the PA is at least "acceptable", and an escorting EA is strong - well, there tends to be no chance of rescuing the WW from the mudhole she is intent on wallowing in. MM may someday see how comparatively well positioned his situation actually is, if he can be the "hero" that one of our female colleagues suggested he be. You were.
I posted on another BHs thread a note about the famous 'get out of jail free card'.

Let me say I'm in a now very rare rough patch. It started last nite and I've been in a low place all day today. The family went to a neighbor and I'm home as I'm not in a sociable way right now. No real reason, just a touch of anxiety.

The card is something I actually value. It's something that says to her that she did unspeakable things to me and the kids and although we,re cool now and for the foreseeable future I have options.

It makes me less vulnerable. Not that I fear anything of her.

I remember as I struggled with her over my lack of SF over the years how I would threaten her that I'm not going to beg her for sex for ever. And I'd swear to myself when my younger kid goes to college, I'm out.

Now I have an out. I got the permission to go at my Discretion on may 8th.

I having a bad day. Did I mention?
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I posted on another BHs thread a note about the famous 'get out of jail free card'.

Let me say I'm in a now very rare rough patch. It started last nite and I've been in a low place all day today. The family went to a neighbor and I'm home as I'm not in a sociable way right now. No real reason, just a touch of anxiety.

The card is something I actually value. It's something that says to her that she did unspeakable things to me and the kids and although we,re cool now and for the foreseeable future I have options.

It makes me less vulnerable. Not that I fear anything of her.

I remember as I struggled with her over my lack of SF over the years how I would threaten her that I'm not going to beg her for sex for ever. And I'd swear to myself when my younger kid goes to college, I'm out.

Now I have an out. I got the permission to go at my Discretion on may 8th.

I having a bad day. Did I mention?


Hang in there buddy! These get more rare.
On Sat I had a rare few moments of alone time with my wife.

I initiated intimacy like usual and I tried something a bit more adventurous in bed than we've done in the past.

I will say here that it was something I HAVE TO BELIEVE most couples do and nothing that would be against the law anywhere. But something she and I have rarely, if ever, have done.

It was nice and she didnt complain or say one word about it.

I went out to pickup dinner and i sent her a text thanking her as I alway did and then I told her I like to think that what we did was something only she and I share. She knew exactly what I meant. She quickly replied, definitely "only you".

Even tho' her response was want I wanted, this set off my crappy mood for the weekend.

Cant explain it.
Ive said this before too, she cannot win.

She has been a different person in all aspects of life since dday and probably the wife any guy would want.

But, theres no denying she is tainted and Im doing all I can to get passed it.

I cant even imagine what things would be like if I had to do all the investigating and chasing some BS are doing.

I think the answer is I would NOT have done any of that. I would have said bye and good luck with all that.

Im a believer in the saying "life is too short". This applies to many things. And marriage, after infidelity, is certainly applicable. If your WS is not onboard after being caught, then the life is too short motto may fit.

Factoring in children is difficult with the LITS thought. Ill admit.

I always come back to 'did she give one thought to me or the kids during a long term affair?'. I say no.

I think she actually lived the term "life is too short" for the past 7 years and carried on what she carried on.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/29/11 01:15 PM
Quote:
I having a bad day. Did I mention?
{{{Mike}}} I understand the bad days and the anxiety. Man, I hated those days! frown

I don't have them anymore. I'm just saying that to give you something to look forward to. smile
Does it help to tell you that there was likely no thinking going on at all? I recently asked my FWH about his thought processes during his adultery. He replied that there were none. He made no analyses or comparisons or thought of the likely outcome (discovery and hurt, huge financial losses.)

I asked him why he and I bought a house together in July 2010, put it in a trust and did all the paperwork for POAs and the works, enjoyed a wonderful 15-day R&R together, when only two weeks later, during Aug 2010, H and OW were in bed together. He had no answer. He said he simply blocked everything else out of his mind and did not think of it. Totally illogical choices. It will never make sense. He's very very embarrassed about that now, but once waywardness starts to take over, it seems to be all-encompassing. He, like some others here, was actually relieved when I discovered it. He was too cowardly to tell me but too reckless to keep his tracks covered.

Waywardness = No Logical Thinking

I'm only 9 months into recovery, so I'm hardly in a place to encourage, but I can offer to you this: the downs are not quite as down anymore. We can get out of them more effectively than before. I think I haven't cried about it in a month, although I now cry very easily over other things.

My FWH, like your FWW, is very remorseful and wants only to have a wonderful and protected marriage now. Your W sounds like she's really on board with you. I keep telling myself--"two to five years, two to five years and for heaven's sake, one day at a time." Because, you know, it's kind of depressing to look at the entire recovery time and wonder if I'm actually going to be miserable the entire time. The good news is that you and your W are likely to have some very good days and build new memories and a solid, loving, PROTECTED marriage.
I know of the 'non-thinking mind' of the wayward spouse. I wrote about it months ago on my SAA thread. I get it.

My wife and her AP stayed together while he and his wife underwent 3 round of in vitro and surrogacy to have their baby. I asked my wife about this. How could she stay with a POS who carries on a A while going thru this? I told her it makes her look real bad. She said she'd complain to him about this.

Could you imagine this conversation? My wife asking OM how he could continue to persue having a baby in the manner they were doing while in midst of an A? My wife said she was actually hurt. But she stayed for additional 2-3 years with him.

Too funny.

This guy is one of lowest life forms and my wife is guilty by association.

I do know times heals. The meanwhile sucks.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/29/11 02:48 PM
Quote:
I recently asked my FWH about his thought processes during his adultery. He replied that there were none.
LOL! I'm familiar with this one! My H told me that he and OW went to lunch near their office, and then kissed in the car while driving back. I said "But...anyone could have seen you!! What if one of your co-workers, or even your boss, had been driving back to work from their own lunch and was in the car behind you??? What were you thinking???"

He just looked at me sadly and said "That's just it - I wasn't thinking."

Crazy, numbskull waywards. sigh
Want a big laugh???

At one point, as OM and OMW were looking for surrogates to have their baby, I suggested to my wife she offer to carry it as they were paying big bucks.

How sick would THAT have been if my wife gave birth to her lovers baby using his and OMW's genetics?

OMW is in a real bad way pyschologically, so this would have been something to really put her over the edge. Particularly since in our state the surrogate goes on the birth certificate as the mother. A major issue pre-dday for OMW.

It would have been a monumental issue post dday.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/29/11 03:05 PM
Quote:
It would have been a monumental issue post dday.
Oh, WOW. Would that have been crazy!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/29/11 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Want a big laugh???

At one point, as OM and OMW were looking for surrogates to have their baby, I suggested to my wife she offer to carry it as they were paying big bucks.



I'm not laughing.
And, sorry Mike, I find it mildly offensive naughty that you were suggesting to your wife that she rent her uterus for big bucks.

Even if this was pre-affair, I still find it offensive.
This attitude about your wife's body (something that could be a money maker) probably did not fill her love bank. Not at all. In fact, I suspect this was probably a love buster. Maybe a big one.
This was way before I realized my wife and he could have made a baby naturally. So irony hit me as funny.

Surrogacy is something that couples do as a last resort and as science has this possible I dont find it in anyway offensive.

Him doing my wife at the same time he spent $100k going thru the processes is offensive. My wife staying with him during this, extremely offensive.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/29/11 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


Surrogacy is something that couples do as a last resort and as science has this possible I dont find it in anyway offensive.


Neither do I find surrogacy in and of itself offensive, and that is not what I said. Re-read my comment.

Quote:
Him doing my wife at the same time he spent $100k going thru the processes is offensive. My wife staying with him during this, extremely offensive.



Agreed.
But this is not a contest.
I was (badly) trying to point out to you that suggesting your wife use her body for money is offensive to me, as a woman, and possibly to her as well.
They were close friends and I suggested it mostly in jest and after the third attempt at getting a surrogate pregnant.

I was just thinking that if I somehow did allow her to do this for them how even more screwed up this situation would have been.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/29/11 10:46 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling

I went out to pickup dinner and i sent her a text thanking her as I alway did and then I told her I like to think that what we did was something only she and I share. She knew exactly what I meant. She quickly replied, definitely "only you".

Even tho' her response was want I wanted, this set off my crappy mood for the weekend.

Cant explain it.


Because your ability to trust your WW is still very low.
Not sure it's trust. She's given me nothing to fear.

It was to needle her. To give her the business. Immaturity on my part.

I also probably and not too vaguely masked wanted more info about her sex life him.

But I do like knowing some things are unique to me and her. That's the truth.
'Same Time Next Year' is a movie with Alan Alda. Its a romance based in fantasy about 2 selfish morons who met by chance while away from their families and continue to meet year after year.

I used to like the movie as it offered married men a fantasy of meeting up with a pretty woman and having a remorse-less weekend with her. And Im sure it gave some married women a fantasy of leaving their no-good husbands for a weekend of harmless romping with a charming successful and good looking man.

There have been a 1000 movies since that have had adultery themes. No doubt.

Its really a horror movie. Only after dday do I see this.
In the same boat--we avoid any A-related movies/shows. I actually used to think "Same Time, Next Year" was romantic. puke I guess it was because we as the viewer couldn't see the effect on the spouses. We viewed the film as though we were somehow part of the adultery, sort of putting us in the same fantasy fog. Never again!

Your posts on the SAA forum are so helpful and encouraging. Thanks for stepping out in the midst of your pain and recovery. And so happy for your family that your wife is now completely "back."
I apologize to her for the lousy few days and we moved on. Had a nice evening last night.

In effort to soothe any lingering concerns about her feelings toward OM or even the notion that I cant trust her, she made it clear she, too, had decisions upon dday. And she said she took the opportunity that dday afforded her to cleave herself from whatever gripped her into the life she was leading.

She also said in perhaps a little dig at me that should could have chose OM who did call a couple days after dday for "closure" suggesting he'd leave OMW if my wife would leave me.

Now, being a reformed hothead, I rolled with this and accepted it.

Inside, however, this was a kick to the you-know-whats. She means that she could have opted to continue to be this guy's side action? Really? That was a choice?

I listed the things THEY did together to harm a bunch of people that I firmly believe HE orchestrated and she says that she had the choice to make it full time gig? The infractions are many and most of available on my other thread so I wont rehash history. I kept all this inside in effort to continue the recovery.

To even THINK that continuing with this guy, even if she chose to leave me after dday, knowing what we learned on dday is ridiculous. Insane. But so is the cheaters mindset.

Im glad she got caught. It made her a so much better person in everyway. OM's legacy around here: wasted time. My time, my kids' time, and mostly my wife's time. Cant get it back but we are always doing things to no longer waste any more.
I certainly didnt want to imply my wife is a victim.

Reading that last one again tonight I may have suggested she was a victim.

No, it takes two to tango and she never was held by force to be there. I do think he took advantage of a her over time for several reasons. Unfortunately all them make her look so bad at times when I think about it.

So I dont. Or at least I try not to. It does get less and less the thoughts.
I certainly didnt want to imply my wife is a victim.

Reading that last one again tonight I may have suggested she was a victim.

No, it takes two to tango and she never was held by force to be there. I do think he took advantage of a her over time for several reasons. Unfortunately all them make her look so bad at times when I think about it.

So I dont. Or at least I try not to. It does get less and less the thoughts.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/31/11 11:42 AM
I certainly didnt want to imply my wife is a victim.

Reading that last one again tonight I may have suggested she was a victim.

No, it takes two to tango and she never was held by force to be there. I do think he took advantage of a her over time for several reasons. Unfortunately all them make her look so bad at times when I think about it.

So I dont. Or at least I try not to. It does get less and less the thoughts.


Dude, we heard you the first time! grin

I've said before: The best way not to have negative thoughts/memories intrude is to bury them in fresher, more favorable experiences. You've been doing that as well as any recovering BH recently.
Id like to congratulate Oscar De La Hoya, former champion boxer.

After a couple of years of dependency on drugs and alcohol, he hit rock bottom and admitted his addiction and unfaithfulness to his wife.

What a great thing.

All those living illicit lives destined to destroy what is closest to them should have his strength to publicly (or least locally to your spouse and family) come clean and look to live cleanly.

Dont know the details of all his activities, but I will read the book someday.

It takes strength of character and most cheaters and drug users have none.

I really believe the greatest of our heroes are those who have been to depths of dispair and pain yet have the courage to admit the problems and ask for help and forgiveness.

Oscar is real hero.
What bothers me is that OM told my wife at some point that I would never leave her if they got caught. She said she doesnt remember when he said.

He should die a fiery death. Sorry. Hes got a 2 yr old and thats not nice.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
What bothers me is that OM told my wife at some point that I would never leave her if they got caught. She said she doesnt remember when he said.

He should die a fiery death. Sorry. Hes got a 2 yr old and thats not nice.



Ugh. Mike, I still occasionally deal with this too. Thing is, he does deserve a fiery death. He doesn't seem repentant. I told OM 2 that one day his kids will grow up and I will be there to tell them what he is really like.

Truth is, I won't, but he doesn't need to know that. :-)

CV
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/02/11 10:28 PM
He should die a fiery death. Sorry. He's got a 2 yr old and thats not nice.

Oh, don't get all "humanistic" on us, MSS! Trust me when I tell you that a dead OM, all things considered, IS very nice!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/03/11 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
He should die a fiery death. Sorry.
I think all the vets/survivors here would respectfully remain silent and look the other way about this comment. smile
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/03/11 12:12 PM
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
He should die a fiery death. Sorry.
I think all the vets/survivors here would respectfully remain silent and look the other way about this comment. smile



Nothing to look the other way for.

Wishing someone would drop dead, or be dead, was dead, is just a vent.

A standard vent by someone that got screwed over by an evil doer.

A vent that has been said in countless books, stories, movies, plays.

Saying those words does not imply actual "dead" is required or wanted but said due to a loss for words and or to show the depth of pain that the evil behavior deserve or both.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/03/11 08:31 PM
Mike, buddy... I disagree.

He shouldn't die a fiery death...

He should die slowly and horribly of gonorrhea - or live a life of permanent disfigurement and uselessness due to overgrowth of genital warts.
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
He should die a fiery death. Sorry.
I think all the vets/survivors here would respectfully remain silent and look the other way about this comment. smile



Nothing to look the other way for.

Wishing someone would drop dead, or be dead, was dead, is just a vent.

A standard vent by someone that got screwed over by an evil doer.

A vent that has been said in countless books, stories, movies, plays.

Saying those words does not imply actual "dead" is required or wanted but said due to a loss for words and or to show the depth of pain that the evil behavior deserve or both.



I d rather say something as senseless and hurtful here rather than at my wife.

But she feels the same.

No offense to anyone here by it.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/03/11 11:17 PM
You're right, as usual, MB, about what "most" folks "would" do. Pity, isn't it, that "most" modern humans care more about being judged by others as being too "rigorous" than about speaking what is exactly in their hearts/minds, even when it's an idle preference - not to be acted on - on an anonymous communication thread. We generally have been that "neutered" by public opinion. I have not.

(Are you trying to "moderate" me, Marital? grin)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/03/11 11:51 PM
I think what MB meant is that she would not OBJECT to that statement and would look the other way. For me, I would volunteer to drive the getaway truck and loan out my sawed off shotgun! But, thats just me.... laugh
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/04/11 12:18 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
I think what MB meant is that she would not OBJECT to that statement and would look the other way. For me, I would volunteer to drive the getaway truck and loan out my sawed off shotgun! But, thats just me.... laugh
That is EXACTLY what I meant! Who am I, to question the karma bus when it rolls into town? grin
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/04/11 12:20 AM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
You're right, as usual, MB, about what "most" folks "would" do. Pity, isn't it, that "most" modern humans care more about being judged by others as being too "rigorous" than about speaking what is exactly in their hearts/minds, even when it's an idle preference - not to be acted on - on an anonymous communication thread. We generally have been that "neutered" by public opinion. I have not.

(Are you trying to "moderate" me, Marital? grin)
NG, if I were a moderator I'd get too big a kick out of your posts to moderate you! smile
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/04/11 01:56 AM
Big "WHEW" from here, ladies.

I do apologize for misinterpreting the slant of your comment, MB.
Awesome if only in my dreams.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/04/11 03:11 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Big "WHEW" from here, ladies.

I do apologize for misinterpreting the slant of your comment, MB.
Heck, I'll clean up the gun before Mel gets it back! grin

You DO remember my desperate desire to rip every shred of hair out of every last follicle on OW's head, and then hand it to my FWH to stroke, do you not?
No brakes on the this coaster lately.
Thought for the WEEK:

Do not ask me what Im thinking if you really dont want to know.


She asked this last night. I told her "nothing". Then I realized I wasnt being open and honest. So I told her I have trouble at times with the "whole thing" and I have difficulty being happy times. I hide it from her and kids as much as possible but I get sad, I told her.

She didnt say a word, as usual. I was calm in a conversational voice.

I then told her that I dont like the person she used to be. She said quickly 'me neither'. I went on to say that person was beyond cruel to so many innocent people and for so long its almost inconceivable. I told her she is completely changed from that person in dozens ways but she is only 4 months removed from being that person. I told her I fight this notion every day.



Im just under 4 months from dday and I promised myself I would try my hardest to make this work for a year minimum before I made any life decisions. I think my kids deserve me to try this. And I feel sad for her if her depiction of the last bunch of years is the truth. So Im here and doing my best.

But, I get sad at times. I wish I knew more about her mindset during the A. It always come back to "what the f--- were you thing?". I know Ive said to others several times that adulterers do little thinking but being fogged out for as long as she was makes her look pathetic.

And, thats another thing: all this makes her look terrible, if only I and the AP know all the details. Do I want to be with someone who IN MY EYES, at least, has such a thing over her head? I am now supposed to rehabilitate her into a human being capable of making decisions that dont ruin the lives of everyone around her? I dont remember signing on to this when we got married. For better of for worse (if those words were even said, I dont remember), my butt.

Need pull myself together and get back into the groove with her. Just a temporary lull in the recovery action.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/11 02:07 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Thought for the WEEK:

But, I get sad at times. I wish I knew more about her mindset during the A. It always come back to "what the f--- were you thing?". I know Ive said to others several times that adulterers do little thinking but being fogged out for as long as she was makes her look pathetic.

And, thats another thing: all this makes her look terrible, if only I and the AP know all the details. Do I want to be with someone who IN MY EYES, at least, has such a thing over her head? I am now supposed to rehabilitate her into a human being capable of making decisions that dont ruin the lives of everyone around her? I dont remember signing on to this when we got married. For better of for worse (if those words were even said, I dont remember), my butt.



just a lull . technically monday tomorrow.

i wrote 18 questions i mean like what were you thinking and how would it be different and similar to your thoughts above, i finally got all of them answered. and if he agrees i will post some of them.

i hope it will help.

but that aside mikesmile having a bad day, you are allowed. kids have school tomorrow and it back to the new normal that you dont know yet, so get some rest and get up tomorrow and start again.
I have a list of over 30 questions Id like answered.

Im not telling her of the list or giving it to her.

Its so odd to have questions but not want them answered.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/11 01:25 PM
Mike,

I hear you about being sad, I think all BS's go through that, I am almost 2 years out and still have days when the sadness takes over........I try to hide most of it as well, but when I am asked I answer honestly.........
I gave myself a year at first as well, because of the same reasons you have given...I thought my family deserved me being an adult and at least trying to keep us together, even though my husband didn't seem to think it was important, I couldn't conduct myself like he had for their sakes.....
Over time the fog has lifted completed and regret and remorse has come to the forefront.........and the sad days now are fewer and fewer and the happiness of the new and improved relationship is what I can now think about, it is a long process and you are doing a great job considering your time line into discovery, you should be proud of yourself........
I had a list of questions for the last 2 years and I have asked them, calmly and after receiving the answer let them go, of course there was sadness when I learned more, but I could stop wondering.......
Mike I think you are really early in, at first I used the list of questions on paper and he would answer on paper as well, it was easier........he started to understand the being open and honest concept but it took him a while, it takes all WS's a while to get straight again with reality..........
when I felt low and like I wanted to give up I remembered what my therapist said to me about making a choice for myself to stay in this marriage and just like every other decision I make about my life I had to give it my all for myself not anyone else..........I took control of that thought and went all in and it has lessened the burden I felt about the situation..........
I looked after myself and my terms on my schedule............I made my life in this situation as good as it could be, I love my husband and my family with all my heart and took my chances.........that is who I am and what drives my happiness, I just said that without that effort I would live in doubt and fear and that is not a life for me........or you..............
This is for you Mike........
jessi
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/11 01:57 PM
I'm mulling the same thing, brother....some days yes, some days...just want to move on, not a 'sweep it under the rug' move on, just a 'want to heal, working MB principles is AWESOME and WORKING' moving on, KWIM???

(and, will admit, some...pity? for my W -- been through enough, really want to regurgitate it all?)

thanks.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/11 03:01 PM
Quote:
And, thats another thing: all this makes her look terrible, if only I and the AP know all the details. Do I want to be with someone who IN MY EYES, at least, has such a thing over her head? I am now supposed to rehabilitate her into a human being capable of making decisions that dont ruin the lives of everyone around her? I dont remember signing on to this when we got married. For better of for worse (if those words were even said, I dont remember), my butt.
I thought a lot about that in the early days of recovery. Then one day I looked at my H and was overwhelmed by an emotion that was foreign to me at the time: compassion. I felt so sorry for him! I felt so sorry that he would have to live with the memory of his terrible actions for the rest of his life. I looked into his eyes and saw the deep pain that reached to his soul. This man, who had always been full of integrity and honesty. My heart broke for the pain I knew he was going through. Pretty funny for a BS to feel that way, huh? But that's when I knew I had turned a corner in my personal healing. And that's when I knew that I truly loved that man, in spite of the terrible days when he had been an alien.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/11 03:40 PM
Well said, here Marital...exactly how I'm feeling as well...a great deal of compassion, a desire to care and help W mend, heal from the burden she will have to carry for her lifetime...

Thanks.
The story of her A documented elsewhere shines a light on an incredibly shallow, selfish, infinitely vicious, and self destructive person. It's a real contrast to the girl I'm with now.

It's too much to deal with sometimes.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/11 02:27 AM
It's too much to deal with sometimes.

Really? Beginning a great new life with a woman who is apparently diametrically opposed to being defined as "incredibly shallow, selfish, infinitely vicious, and self destructive" is that much of a strain, is it? skeptical

Try to struggle on, okay? rotflmao
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/11 02:54 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
The story of her A documented elsewhere shines a light on an incredibly shallow, selfish, infinitely vicious, and self destructive person. It's a real contrast to the girl I'm with now.

It's too much to deal with sometimes.


Yup.

You don't trust it.

Too many lies, too much crap.


Slog on brother, slog on.
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
It's too much to deal with sometimes.

Really? Beginning a great new life with a woman who is apparently diametrically opposed to being defined as "incredibly shallow, selfish, infinitely vicious, and self destructive" is that much of a strain, is it? skeptical

Try to struggle on, okay? rotflmao


Damage done. I have not read the 1000's of threads here but in three months i have not seen the sheer cruelty of what my wife pulled off during her A in anyone elses story. I just haven't. I'm know I can't rate ones hurt vs another's. And all the stories stink.

Is she sorry? No doubt.

Am I working on more forgiveness? Everyday.

Struggling at times. For sure.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/11 02:00 PM
Quote:
I have not read the 1000's of threads here but in three months i have not seen the sheer cruelty of what my wife pulled off during her A in anyone elses story.
Do you mean by length of time? Or by who the AP was? Keep reading. They're there.

Try not to compare apples to oranges. ALL adultery is damaging and cruel. I suspect that a poster reading your thread might think their situation was worse than yours. I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're standing on. There have been some cases where the WS was so unbelievably cruel and hurtful that is was stunning - and the A was only a few months long! Wayward men leaving women with newborn babies - what POS would do that?! Wayward women abandoning their children - what?? A wayward husband screwing around with his brother's wife?? crazy

It's all so heartbreaking, and all so damned unnecessary. frown
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/11 02:25 PM
Two men are camping, and they hear a grizzly bear getting closer to their site. Being well-seasoned outdoorsmen, they both recognized the sounds of a hungry bear about to attack. One of the men stood up, put on his running shoes and started stretching. His friend said, "That's a waste of time, you can't outrun a bear!"

The other answered, "I don't have to outrun the bear; I just have to outrun YOU!"

..i have not seen the sheer cruelty of what my wife pulled off during her A in anyone elses story.

First off, there have been staggeringly horrid accounts here of actions by WWs toward their BHs - including OCs foisted on the family, STDs shared, FRs dangled over and over, false criminal charges prosecuted to conviction, etc, etc.

But......WHO CARES? Unlike the runner-camper in my story above, you do NOT have to outrun/outdo/out-whatever anyone else. You have to outrun THE BEAR!

Concentrate on your partner's actions today and tomorrow. Fixating on the past will cause you to re-endure all the pain that those days presented you. The "bear" cannot catch you if you keep running. Stopping to look back will merely result in a well fed Ursus arctos horribilis.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/11 02:32 PM
thanks for the laugh NG, I agree you can get so stuck on the past that you miss what could be your future.............
Life is waiting for you if you run to it instead of putting the brakes on and restarting............
It is a choice........
jessi
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/11 03:27 PM
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Quote:
I have not read the 1000's of threads here but in three months i have not seen the sheer cruelty of what my wife pulled off during her A in anyone elses story.
Do you mean by length of time? Or by who the AP was? Keep reading. They're there.

Try not to compare apples to oranges. ALL adultery is damaging and cruel. I suspect that a poster reading your thread might think their situation was worse than yours. I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're standing on. There have been some cases where the WS was so unbelievably cruel and hurtful that is was stunning - and the A was only a few months long! Wayward men leaving women with newborn babies - what POS would do that?! Wayward women abandoning their children - what?? A wayward husband screwing around with his brother's wife?? crazy

It's all so heartbreaking, and all so damned unnecessary. frown



I was talking to one of my gaming friends the other day... his XWW leveled molestation charges against him during the D.

Waywards are.... evil...
NG-awesome analogy as per usual.

Focusing on the future as the past gets furthr away.
We had a great conversation last night. About us.

Followed by an outstanding make-out session.

We were celebrating 4 months of her release from her affair. She asked me again to forgive her, I asked to stop asking me that because I have already.

She asked me if I love her. Yes.

Moving along.
To my favorite WW:

Today is the 4 month anniversary of you being my wife again.

You are an amazing woman and becoming a better person everyday.

I learned a lot about humans and what they sometimes let happen to them. I learned about weakness and addiction. I learned that one can stay in a bad situation even though it is the worst thing someone can do to those they love. I learned that there sometimes is no reason for what happened.

I promise I am working very hard to be the man you want and will always want. And, I know you are doing everything you can to help me get passed the last bunch of years where I had to share your affection. Your warmth and loving has been amazing. You have made yourself into a stronger girl capable of so much. Its about self confidence. You had none before May 8th and after your self confidence is at a very high level.

Lets continue to grow together and be there for each other. If Im down, Im going to tell you and i expect the same from you.


To my BH:

I told you I am glad Im a better person myself. I am also happier. We will and are getting thru what I created.

I am very lucky that you are who you are. Im sure there a lot of men who would not have given someone who did what I did you and our kids a second chance. I still cry when I think about what I did. I dont do it in front of you but I need you to know that Im so sorry for this hardship. I have no excuses except I was an immature and lost person who clung onto what I thought was safe and easy. As time went on I got deeper and deeper until what was right and wrong didnt exist. It just was. I beg you to continue to love me and be my partner in recovery.

I cant write too much at work, but I love you and we will kiss a lot later.

Love, WW
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/09/11 03:45 PM
Mike,

So happy for you two, I think you two are going to make it, this is now a life long commitment with some meaning, keep up the good work and don't ever let it slide again............
keep us posted......
jessi
The brutality a spouse can impose on another is beyond imagination. A new story appears on these forums everyday.

You maybe could understand infidelity if theres violence or neglect in the marriage. In nearly all cases we get the story from the BS so we may be missing details, but taking the BS at face value most of these cheaters are in 'normal' marriages.

It has to be a personality flaw, a weakness as I like to suggest to newly BS here, that drives someone to crush the life out a loved one.

They change life forever for the entire family.

Some of these stories are almost too much to read.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
It has to be a personality flaw, a weakness as I like to suggest to newly BS here, that drives someone to crush the life out a loved one.


It's important to realize that -- aside from some with specific mental disorders -- the statement above is usually a falsehood. Every man or woman on the planet, under certain conditions, will fall in love with someone who is not their spouse. And under other conditions, they won't.

What are the conditions?

Allowing a member of the opposite sex to meet your intimate emotional needs, especially Intimate Conversation, Affection, and Recreational Companionship. Those generally lead to a desire to meet the need for Sexual Fulfillment, at which point you've met the definition of a Physical Affair.

That's it. That's all it takes. No "personality flaw", no "weakness" that causes a married person to have an affair. Just allowing a member of the opposite sex to meet their intimate emotional needs well enough, long enough to pass the Romantic Love Threshold is all it takes. Then the Giver takes over, the potential adulterer feel an overwhelming attraction to the other person, and the affair is in full swing.

It's important to understand this because understanding the cause informs the treatment!

If it really was "weakness", then the cure would be to keep letting someone other than your spouse meet your intimate emotional needs but just be "stronger". Well, that doesn't stop the affair. Let's try the next one.

If it was a "personality flaw", then the cure would be to keep letting someone other than your spouse meet your intimate emotional needs, but take medication or therapy to correct your "defect". That also doesn't stop the affair.

But trying to remedy those "defects" or "weaknesses" is extremely popular with those who are currently in active affairs. The crazy thing is, usually stopping the affair dead and instituting extraordinary precautions usually fixes the "weakness" or "defect". When someone fully implements strong Extraordinary Precautions -- particularly Radical Honesty and Transparency -- they don't end up having more affairs!

Go figure. Don't fix the person. Change their behavior... and the person fixes themselves.
Just to add onto my previous post: all the crazy-making behavior surrounding an affair (lying, emotional abuse, and more) can be explained as well without resorting to an assumption of defect or weakness on the part of the person having the affair.

There are a number of concepts that are important to understand that perfectly explain typical affair behavior. I'd encourage you to Google them.
1. Contrast Effect (see new version of His Needs, Her Needs).
2. Exclusive need-meeting (read "Surviving An Affair").
3. Love Bank balances, particularly the Romantic Love Threshold (see any Dr. Harley book).
4. Approach-avoidance conflict (listen to the radio show; he doesn't talk about this much in the books, but it's a well-documented phenomenon with a Wikipedia page).
5. Different types of lies (read "Love Busters").

A wayward engages in Protector Lying and Stay Out Of Trouble Lying during an affair. Approach-avoidance causes them to vacillate between their spouse and the affair partner. Allowing the AP to meet emotional needs drives Love Bank balances higher, resulting in a feeling of overwhelming attraction toward the affair partner and the feelings toward the spouse suffer by contrast (Contrast Effect).

It all makes a twisted sort of sense once you wrap your head around the reasons for the behaviors. The wayward would be hard-pressed to explain their reasoning, but a decent psychologist (or armchair quarterback like me) with a grounding in MarriageBuilders philosophy can smile

I know this, i have a lot more to learn this stuff.
Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
Allowing a member of the opposite sex to meet your intimate emotional needs, especially Intimate Conversation, Affection, and Recreational Companionship. Those generally lead to a desire to meet the need for Sexual Fulfillment, at which point you've met the definition of a Physical Affair.


Thought of the Day:

While I agree with the above, why is that I can keep my fantasies and millions of other married folks can keep their fantasies just that: fantasies? Its weakness. It comes down to not having the courage to tell your spouse at the time of engagement someone else is making you happy. Maybe a touch of fear is there too. And of course, a ton of selfishness.

I see a beautiful woman everyday. I speak to beautiful women everyday in my travels. Women in different life Id like to be with. Am I a superhuman because I can keep it in my pants? No, I have committments to my family and a love of my wife that precludes even the notion of doing something.

Cheaters are weak. Comes back to that.

Edit: I have seen a few threads where the poster has noticed some distance and things seem to be uncool at home and they confronted their spouses and got the 'we have to talk' or the 'Im not happy' thing. To let the A start, continue, and flourish like too many seem to is deviant.

I hate to give the holier than thou impression and Im as interested in SF as the next guy, I have been in more than one situation where I could have strayed to some degree but it really never went passed a fantasy. Im strong.
I mean I do appreciate the more scientific reasoning for Affairs that was nicely laid out above.

Im not poo-poo'ing all those concepts as invalid.

Im a simple guy and look to break downs things to their lowest common denominator. And I always seem to come back, at least in my wifes case, a weakness in her. She let this guy into her life and let him deliver a lot of things that I wasnt. And, at a certain point he made his needs known.

So what does she do? 1) run and apologize for leading him on and come home to me and face the prospect of looking for a new job and all the uncertainies that come with it or 2) give him what he wants, completely renege on our marriage vows, and start a long term situation where it spiraled into a thing where she couldnt remove herself.

A strong person chooses 1. A weakling number 2.

Today, I have someone with a strong #1 ambition. Someone I can be proud of. Someone who is proud of herself. Someone I can love.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/15/11 01:38 PM
Cheaters are weak.

BINGO! But let's be a tad more prcise, okay?

"Weakness" in and of itself is of no interest to this discourse. "Weakness" as a function of having "weak boundaries" in dealing with the opposite sex (we'll focus on heterosexual conduct here) is the elemental issue.

Boundaries can be externally enforced, manifesting itself in social conventions such as those in place in Islamic, or Orthodox Jewish communities, or in archaic controls (chastity belts, anyone?).

In modern Western society, the controls are "trusted" to be erected by the individuals themselves. Well, that sure as HELL is not working very well, is it? And the reason for that is that adolescents going into adulthood (as they approach monogamous commitments) are NEVER educated about the necessity of creating their own system of boundaries. As a matter of fact, they are inundated with innumerable counterproductive cultural communication about "doing what's good for you", and "seeking to find one's own joy", whether or not that "good" or "joy" means banging the pool-boy, or stopping by a convenient parking lot while driving the babysitter home. (Apologies to pool-boys and babysitters!)
Posted By: freefall Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/15/11 09:29 PM
Do I have to get a pool before I can have a pool boy?
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
In modern Western society, the controls are "trusted" to be erected by the individuals themselves. Well, that sure as HELL is not working very well, is it? And the reason for that is that adolescents going into adulthood (as they approach monogamous commitments) are NEVER educated about the necessity of creating their own system of boundaries. As a matter of fact, they are inundated with innumerable counterproductive cultural communication about "doing what's good for you", and "seeking to find one's own joy", whether or not that "good" or "joy" means banging the pool-boy, or stopping by a convenient parking lot while driving the babysitter home. (Apologies to pool-boys and babysitters!)


Maybe, but I blame her mother for raising her in a consequence-free environment where FWW was never allowed to make mistakes and was allowed things that effective parenting would have forbidden. If her children were going to fail in some way, my MIL would intervene rather than her kids learn a lesson. My wife was indulged things that my inlaws could not afford or made any sense to her to have. It was poor parenting and it was only after dday and being informed of her daughters A, did she admit some errors.

I see it in the way my wife is with my kids. For instance, my boy leaves papers and a book by mistake at an afterschool program. He was more concerned with playing that when the time came to leave he had to in a hurry and left his stuff there. I say he gets a failure for the homework and emabarassed for his mistake, instead my wife is running around town looking for his papers. I got taught lessons by making mistakes. I take ownership of my decisions and actions.

Maybe you see the parallels or not, but my wife turned into an adult who allowed herself a guilt free pleasure without consequence. Her boundaries were not important as soon as someone indulged her needs and continued to meet them. And, maybe theres a connection between what needs OM met and the material items her parents got her which probably, at the time, her parents knew they in all rights they couldnt afford or shouldnt provide. That may explain how easily my wife bounderies were breeched.

My MIL raised one adultress and a son in the last stages of ending his marriage (and a genuine misery to be around in the best of times). The track record is there. Heres a kicker, my older brother's wife had a well publicized affair many years ago, so what does that say about my mother and the way we were raised?

Im just an armchair pyschologist, not a pro, with plenty of time to be introspective.
Trying to avoid raising children with similar decision making deficiencies their mother has. We spoke to the boy's new teacher and my wife was asking about the aforementioned missing homework and how important it was and does she have another copy and should he still do and what happens if he forgets it and yada yada yada.

It was almost embarassing.

I was cringing at how much she is intervening in what is a minor infraction and how we are missing an excellent learning opportunity for him.

The teacher almost went above and beyond to tell her its not a big deal. Fourth graders do lose things and after teaching for 25 years, she understands. NOT TO WORRY. BE COOL. HE'LL DO TOMORROWS ASSIGNMENT.

I begged her to try something foreign to her and try to be cool about things in life. She does come from one of the most uncool people on earth, her mother, so overcoming genetics is tough.

I sat with the boy alone last night and let him know the expectation going forward. HE is responsible for everything that goes on in class. He is responsible for reading, bringing in all that is required of him, and his actions.

My wife has been awesome in many facets of our life since dday and this just one more thing we are working on. I think she believes a lassez faire approach to our kids workload is not caring. Far from it, if I do their homework or search for answers for them on the internet, or sharpen their pencils, or make sure their backpacks are ready for school, WHAT ARE THEY LEARNING??

How we tackle things in life is how our kids will do so in theirs.
Trying to avoid raising children with similar decision making deficiencies their mother has. We spoke to the boy's new teacher and my wife was asking about the aforementioned missing homework and how important it was and does she have another copy and should he still do and what happens if he forgets it and yada yada yada.

It was almost embarassing.

I was cringing at how much she is intervening in what is a minor infraction and how we are missing an excellent learning opportunity for him.

The teacher almost went above and beyond to tell her its not a big deal. Fourth graders do lose things and after teaching for 25 years, she understands. NOT TO WORRY. BE COOL. HE'LL DO TOMORROWS ASSIGNMENT.

I begged her to try something foreign to her and try to be cool about things in life. She does come from one of the most uncool people on earth, her mother, so overcoming genetics is tough.

I sat with the boy alone last night and let him know the expectation going forward. HE is responsible for everything that goes on in class. He is responsible for reading, bringing in all that is required of him, and his actions.

My wife has been awesome in many facets of our life since dday and this just one more thing we are working on. I think she believes a lassez faire approach to our kids workload is not caring. Far from it, if I do their homework or search for answers for them on the internet, or sharpen their pencils, or make sure their backpacks are ready for school, WHAT ARE THEY LEARNING??

How we tackle things in life is how our kids will do so in theirs.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/17/11 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
[quote=NeverGuessed]
My MIL raised one adultress and a son in the last stages of ending his marriage (and a genuine misery to be around in the best of times). The track record is there. Heres a kicker, my older brother's wife had a well publicized affair many years ago, so what does that say about my mother and the way we were raised?


Hey, Mike: This struck a chord with me and my SIL, both of us victims of affairs by our FWHs (brothers). BIL has had MULTIPLE affairs (PA and EA), my FWH had one affair on me and two on his ex-wife (I was not involved), their sister has cheated, and their youngest brother, now 44, still lives in MIL's house and won't get up for work.

BIL, who has been diagnosed a sex addict for his heinous and multiple, multiple affairs (two within the first year of his 27-year marriage. ugh!), recently exposed his problems to his parents. My FWH is about to talk to them this weekend.

They really are good people. Screwed up? Sure, but not malicious and certainly not evil. MIL asked BIL: Did we screw you guys all up?

I can't decide if it's heroic of BIL to have said: No, I did this to myself; or if he should have said something about the mixture of genetics, environment and free will all being to blame.

I don't want them devastated, but my SIL and I agree that the cycle of lies and compulsion should end.

Hmmmmmm. Now, I'm thinking I"m thread-jacking here, Mike. Sorry!

Back to MB's philosophies. I guess that's what's to great about it, is that it gives us the tools to change our behaivors through the POJA. HOpefully, your wife will agree to negotiate these kid issues, or at least find a better balance that helps you.
There should be a forum for complaining about inlaws.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
There should be a forum for complaining about inlaws.


Don't get me started buddy! twoxfour
I read NG's D-day story last night which as you would expect was a gripping tale with emotion, a touch of humor, and a ton of honesty.

It triggered a bad mood in me.

And, in this new world of O & H, I told my wife why I was not very happy. I said I would have loved to have caught her in her A after 2-3 months like NG and it would have been great to have ended it before it got physical.

She said, 'I wish it didnt even start.'

She went on to say that she is doing all to help us not have these moments, which, admittably, do not happen all too often. She went on to say that having this over her head for life is something she says is sometimes overwhelming to her. The A in no way was worth a minute fraction of the hurt she put on everyone and she says she wants me to know that she is doing and will continue to do everything possible to make me happy.

She also said that if she had to point to one word that would maybe answer the question why, its "laziness". I told her that being available to him for no other reason than laziness doesnt make me happy. She said 'would you be happier if I said I loved him to death and couldnt get enough of his body? That would be so far from the truth its insane. I stayed in the worst situation becaue every other option meant me taking responsiblity of my life and growing up. I hurt my husband and kids because Im lazy. I begged you to forgive this and you have. I will never disappoint you again.'

No crying. No yelling, of course.

She said sorry again, which I forbid her from saying.

We kissed and went to bed.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I read NG's D-day story last night which as you would expect was a gripping tale with emotion, a touch of humor, and a ton of honesty.

It triggered a bad mood in me.

And, in this new world of O & H, I told my wife why I was not very happy. I said I would have loved to have caught her in her A after 2-3 months like NG and it would have been great to have ended it before it got physical.

She said, 'I wish it didnt even start.'

She went on to say that she is doing all to help us not have these moments, which, admittably, do not happen all too often. She went on to say that having this over her head for life is something she says is sometimes overwhelming to her. The A in no way was worth a minute fraction of the hurt she put on everyone and she says she wants me to know that she is doing and will continue to do everything possible to make me happy.

She also said that if she had to point to one word that would maybe answer the question why, its "laziness". I told her that being available to him for no other reason than laziness doesnt make me happy. She said 'would you be happier if I said I loved him to death and couldnt get enough of his body? That would be so far from the truth its insane. I stayed in the worst situation becaue every other option meant me taking responsiblity of my life and growing up. I hurt my husband and kids because Im lazy. I begged you to forgive this and you have. I will never disappoint you again.'

No crying. No yelling, of course.

She said sorry again, which I forbid her from saying.

We kissed and went to bed.



I can relate to these days. Still have them on occasion. I wonder why we as BS's say

"I would have loved to have caught you in your A after 2-3 months, it would have been great to have ended it before it got physical."

when the truth is we should be thinking "I wish I knew how to meet certain EN's so this never happened"

My w still apologizes to me on occasion, though it is unsolicited. Just this morning she sent me this:


" I haven't forgotten all the devastation I brought on you, our marriage and the family. Every day I remember and every day I'm so sorry for all of it. I don't always tell you but I never forget and I never take it for granted that I'm here with you. It's such an honor to be your wife and I love you so completely. Thank you for loving me too."

I simply replied:

welcome. I adore you, you are my heart. I love you grace, you are a pearl. I will miss you today.

CV
CV-

One's EN are one's EN. Far be it from me to disparage anyone's needs.

My wife's needs, however, were incredibly shallow and material to make them almost pathetic.

She offered up her body over the years to maintain some really meaningless things to continue to be supplied.

I do take some solace knowing it wasnt his sexual prowess that kept her returning. It was his ability/interest to deliver nice things.

She hates herself over this.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/19/11 04:41 PM
MSS, I'm not happy that my story was the proximate cause of your having a bad day, unless you can look at it by knowing that that particular piece of "badness" was someday going to have to be expunged....and now it has been!

As a follow-on to your thoughts about the "value" of the "needs" that WSs will seek to source from APs, I guess there is no "best" answer. Your FWW sought material things. My FWW sought professional/collegial validation, and additional companionship. The "need" is, finally, of no importance when compared to the method of satisfying it. If yours had taken a third or fourth job to legitimately acquire whatever baubles she received, you wouldn't be here, as I would not if mine had simply found the voice to tell me she was lonely, instead of confiding same to OM.

BUT.....

Read the posting on my thread I made today. The possibility of having a "great" day like that is the goal behind putting in the work that can lead to recovery. You've come a long way quickly. Like my morning yesterday, finish with a strong kick, amigo!
I did read the post and congrats on all including the 5K. Nice to hear considering your not-too-long-ago health issues.

I did appreciate your good day yesterday.

My wife did ask me last night right before her 'good night' kiss to remember our great weekend. Friends, parties, and watching the kids sports and all of us together. She focus' on that and it keeps her on the path.

You and her are right you can have a great day still.
Thought for the week:

"Little things mean a lot."

For instance, a 'you look nice in that' or 'I like your hair that way' are things I never said and she loves that I compiment her nowadays.

Also, the boy had a friend over and they wanted to have lunch. Normally Id take them to McD's and not think 2x. I asked her to join us and she accepted. This was out of the norm as I would usually let her relax by herself. SHE suggested it was bit of me wanting to know where she is at all times but that really never dawned on me. (Of which she has no problem, btw.) The new 'us' has us together doing things we usually separated for. Its all good.

The little things.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
And, in this new world of O & H, I told my wife why I was not very happy. I said I would have loved to have caught her in her A after 2-3 months like NG and it would have been great to have ended it before it got physical.


While I get that you feel better afterward, if you know the facts of the affair, bringing it up again is a Love Buster. Better to have said "I'm feeling down because I had a bunch of bad memories triggered by X." Talk about the things in the present that are bringing your past to the present; don't bring up the past once it's been dealt with if it's possibly avoided.

It's perfectly Radically Honest to talk about your feelings. It's a great idea to include anything you can identify that caused you to feel that way. It's a pretty bad idea to keep bringing up the affair as context for your feelings; focus on the things happening *now* that are triggering those feelings.
I hear you.

Cant help myself sometimes.

I did give her a nice apology today, if thats any consolation for Love Busting.
Nope, an apology is no consolation. Get out there and spend 3-5 hours meeting one of her most important emotional, non-intimate emotional needs; THAT is consolation!
It was during our UA time that she asked if something was wrong and in radical honesty I told here. No accusations, no disrespectful judgement, just what was on my mind.

I'm not going to lie and brush my feelings away when at the same i demand when she is struggling with something that she bring it up.

I believe in our recovery there is a place for calm discussion should something arise as long as we end it with no animosity. And no outbursts.

We spent too many years not opening up to each other. Not going to swallow something when it's pressing my mind. That's not healthy either.

And, compared to some of the stuff I sometimes think about and don't tell her, what was said the other night was mild.
Been thinking about OMW for a while now. I decided I would not maintain regular contact due her instability and boundaries I like to keep. I think there is zero to gain by being friends.

I don't want any affair talk. Shed defend OM and id blame him for it all. What else is there?

But as we are tied to each other in some warped fashion I feel like I should reach out to her. Our last brief encounter was an errant text I sent six weeks ago where it was clear shed like to catch up.

I just don't think she has the support I know I needed to get to this point.

I told my wife tonite about this and she would rather I don't contact her. I didnt expect my wife to embrace the idea. She did say if it was going to make me happy I should send a text.

Am I wrong to reach out to OMW to see how she's managing? I'm not meeting with her just an email.

Her hurt must be huge for so many reasons.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/21/11 04:17 AM
Sorry, MSS, but my BS-Meter is pinned to a reading of "Large Stinking Pile"

You do NOT want to "reassure" her, or anything else of such an altruistic nature. You really want to find out if POSOM has been dealt with as harshly as you have (correctly) dealt with your FWW, right? You want justice to be served and have him suffer some cruel fate, even if that fate is to suffer the contempt of his now-informed BW!

The reasons I know this are two:

  • Because there really is no comfort you can provide to OMW. Are you going to tell her that all the sex OM got from your FWW could not REALLY have been that good for him, since your FWW says her heart wasn't in it?
  • Because I wanted the same revenge (as do ALL BHs)
Let it go. Do NOT text/phone/e-mail/telegraph/relay/sky-write/IM ANYTHING to that lady. You will set back your recovery (and since you would be doing it, it could be said you deserve it), but you'll also be setting back FWW's (and right now she neither needs, nor deserves, that).
Ok. Understood.

We were friends before all this which is not in the norm of these situations.

I suspect that he spent some time in the doghouse but is back to lying and cheating and his many ssl.

I won't contact her. My dad did say many many years ago that men and women have no reason to be friends. Unless you are boinking or are working on the boink for what purpose do u need that friend. Our spouses nicely proved my dads theory.

Just wanted to how she's doing but I won't.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/21/11 11:13 AM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Sorry, MSS, but my BS-Meter is pinned to a reading of "Large Stinking Pile"

You do NOT want to "reassure" her, or anything else of such an altruistic nature. You really want to find out if POSOM has been dealt with as harshly as you have (correctly) dealt with your FWW, right? You want justice to be served and have him suffer some cruel fate, even if that fate is to suffer the contempt of his now-informed BW!

The reasons I know this are two:

  • Because there really is no comfort you can provide to OMW. Are you going to tell her that all the sex OM got from your FWW could not REALLY have been that good for him, since your FWW says her heart wasn't in it?
  • Because I wanted the same revenge (as do ALL BHs)
Let it go. Do NOT text/phone/e-mail/telegraph/relay/sky-write/IM ANYTHING to that lady. You will set back your recovery (and since you would be doing it, it could be said you deserve it), but you'll also be setting back FWW's (and right now she neither needs, nor deserves, that).


I was going to say that the only purpose for the BS and the OPS to contact to expose the OPS, exchange info about the affair, and to verify NC if they suspect their spouse of falling off the wagon and breaking NC.

Out of those three reasons you have not stated the need to do any of these three. You have done all of this.

But I really like the way never guessed expressed what he believes was your motivation and how contacting OMW in your case is not helpful for anyone envolved.

Once a BS gets their WS to go NC they can suggest that the OPS use MB, but not tell their WS about it until they have had guidance from the pros here. The forum is here for support.

This is why not just NC for the affair partners, but for their spouses and children as well.
I have maintained a strict NC with OMW for some reason. Aside when she informed me of what she saw on video and subsequent call a month later when she threatened to facebook everyone we know with the news, we have not spoken at all.

I know that she should be available to let me know if she suspects something but thankfully I have no inclination to believe my wife has any interest in seeing OM.

I have no alterior motive than to see how she is doing mentally. Dont care one darn about how she is punishing OM, I know he is in he11 because he lost my wife and is stuck with OMW and his other girlfriend. My wife by far is the best of them all.

In fact, if it came to a conversation Id set the rules that 1) we dont discuss the A and any way, 2) we dont mention our spouses at all, and 3) we are never to meet in person.

Im a nice guy. I do the right thing in most cases. This woman had acknowledged mental issues for years. They maxed our there medical deduction on their taxes every year with her shrinks and medication. I simply would like to hear that she is turning the corner on recovery as I feel like I have.

This is all. I will not send the email.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


Im a nice guy. I do the right thing in most cases. This woman had acknowledged mental issues for years. They maxed our there medical deduction on their taxes every year with her shrinks and medication. I simply would like to hear that she is turning the corner on recovery as I feel like I have.

This is all. I will not send the email.


I sometimes wonder about OM2's kids. They had it far worse after Dday than we did. I just don't want the contact or the possibility of more drama. They were all pre-teen and below... their mom exposed every single detail to them in a very age-inappropriate way.


CV
I actually didnt even think of their baby who we adored. Love to hear how she's doing.
I read the thread that Hurting Turkey wrote and its a wrenching story of deep sadness that upset me. Although his story is one of relationship problems going back many years, the hurt he has is with him all the time today.

It gave a lot of us the chance to reflect on the change in our marriages that we never asked for nor deserved.

It also had some of the finest motivational posts from many people.

I shared one of them with my wife because it meant a lot to me. It talks about the lost innocence of marriage caught up with infidelity. He wrote about how this is now a part of who we are. I have been thinking about that a lot even as my wife is doing everything to make me move forward from it.

We talked about the post from HoldHerHand. It was written so well that we spent the night talking about it and our future. The last paragraph: "It begins with that 1 spouse who in a flash of desperation lifts the burning wreckage and frees the other spouse from the hell they are trapped in. It begins with that one spouse who begins marching through the flames, with a hand extended, refusing to burn any longer - I will not burn, and you can CHOOSE to come with me."

It was like from a movie. I told her SHE was the 1. SHE was the one who picked up the burning wreckage, not me the BH. And it was because of her strength to make us better that we are indeed moving forward.

I have chosen to come with HER.
I don't enjoy being a superhero. Heroes in our game here get bad feelings and are expected to do nothing about them. Bury them. Move on. The villians don't seem to have it as bad. They carried on their life of crime and made us enter this world of crime fighting and our only weapon is love.

Sometimes a nice extended lambasting would hit the spot. But that would counter the months of love goodwill built up. Doesn't seem fair. Id like some equity in this.

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/25/11 01:39 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
"It begins with that 1 spouse who in a flash of desperation lifts the burning wreckage and frees the other spouse from the hell they are trapped in. It begins with that one spouse who begins marching through the flames, with a hand extended, refusing to burn any longer - I will not burn, and you can CHOOSE to come with me."

It was like from a movie. I told her SHE was the 1. SHE was the one who picked up the burning wreckage, not me the BH. And it was because of her strength to make us better that we are indeed moving forward.

I have chosen to come with HER.



Mike, thanks for sharing that quote. Made me totally tear up. In my situation, it was me, the BS, walking through the fire, extending my hand.

Some days, I still flake off a bit of burnt flesh, but the scars are healing.

Thanks for sharing it!!!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/25/11 01:43 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I don't enjoy being a superhero. Heroes in our game here get bad feelings and are expected to do nothing about them. Bury them. Move on. The villians don't seem to have it as bad. They carried on their life of crime and made us enter this world of crime fighting and our only weapon is love.


I agree. I don't like it either.

Quote:
Id like some equity in this.



I'd like to tear POSOM up some times. Some times, I day dream about verbally belittling her, because she's not well educated. It's my best weapon against her whorishly fun body that attracted my FWH. I have skewered her many, many times with language ... but all in my head. Maybe someday, if I ever run into that POSOW, I'll whip out one of those tongue-lashings and rip her to shreds. As opposed to my usual tongue-tied stammering! smile
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I don't enjoy being a superhero. Heroes in our game here get bad feelings and are expected to do nothing about them. Bury them. Move on. The villians don't seem to have it as bad. They carried on their life of crime and made us enter this world of crime fighting and our only weapon is love.

Sometimes a nice extended lambasting would hit the spot. But that would counter the months of love goodwill built up. Doesn't seem fair. Id like some equity in this.



Sorry, I am a huge Spider-Man fan. It brings the story to mind. Guilt, shame, embarrassment, regret and sometimes anger. These are the motivators for Peter to live out the "with Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" motto that runs throughout the series.

Villains are never plagued by these things. This is what makes heroes great. One failure and average men are thrust into extra-ordinary circumstances.

It shows us that as the Irish Statesman, Edmund Burke, said "all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Doing the right thing is rarely ever comfortable. It rarely gets you a pat on the back. We all just want to live normal lives, but if we don't stand (BS's and FWW's even)... Who will?

A heroes life is thankless and one of constant restraint. And we have a limited power-set. Yes, it is only love, compassion and grace.

Me? I'm no hero. I'm an average joe thrown into an extraordinary circumstance. I fail, get up and try again (hey, kinda like Spidey). But that's not heroic, that's all of life isn't it? There is no such thing as equity in this life, this side of heaven.

Personally, I am glad for the opportunity to have been my FWW's "hero", and have the opportunity to help others. I cannot imagine my wife being helped along years down the road, by someone else, because I failed at recovering, or helping her along in her recovery. I *want* to be that hero. I love her that much. It was my promise to her when I promised "for worse". It's easy to live the "for better" part. It's the "for worse" that molds us and defines us as men and women.

Sorry for the speech. It's been in my heart and mind today. I could go on, but I'll stop here

CV
The superpower of the hero here in Infidelity World is the ability to swallow pride and eat the anger which simmers in the BS.

If that's the life I ( we) face, I have doubts. Maybe spidey had his doubts too.

Not having a great 24 hours.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/25/11 08:15 PM
Not having a great 24 hours.

But you did have. And recently.

Roller coaster......damped spring system......recovery of the marriage.....highs and lows......

Breathe, kiddo. Be proud that three months ago a day like today for you would have left FWW crying. Not any longer. Not for you.....
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
The superpower of the hero here in Infidelity World is the ability to swallow pride and eat the anger which simmers in the BS.

If that's the life I ( we) face, I have doubts. Maybe spidey had his doubts too.

Not having a great 24 hours.


Mike,

I feel for ya man. My heart is with you. I've been here in infidelity world. *That* is not our ability. I don't want to be proud. I want to be humble. I want to be firm, but gentle. Anger? Anger is not always a sin. But the question is "what are we really angry about?"

Recovery, real recovery comes as we learn to focus that anger at the problem and not the person. Get angry? OK. It's good. focus that anger into overcoming the problem. Focus that energy into something good and healthy.

It is hard when our spouses fall. We often realize how much of a pedestal we have put them on... Made an idol of them.

I had a professor in seminary tell me a number of years back "Be careful what you make idols out of, God brings idols down".

Boy was that true for me.

Hang in there man.

CV
Ship righted for now.

I will say that my greatest success so far is that my kids have no idea of the internal strife Im still facing.

Im sure its not the greatest testament to MB, but everytime I have my 'lows', what keeps me balanced, what keeps me from jumping of the bridge, what keeps me coming home every night, is the thought of not being around my kids everyday.

The truth is I love the SF my wife has brought to our bed and I love the affection and the UA is awesome. Im feeling an attraction to her not felt in many, many years. But the thoughts careening thru my head at times can shift my love to other things not conducive to recovery in a heartbeat. The anger triggered by these thoughts seems almost like it will never subside.

At this point, the only thing that really keeps my here is my children. Cant argue with the truth.

Which if true makes me a user. Makes me someone using my wifes body for sexual gratification. Makes me a lot like her AP. Not 100% sure if the creator of this program would approve of the way Im running my recovery.

I am believer in that time will continue to heal my wounds, however. I am also a believer in that the SF Im enjoying added to mountains of UA time and other recreational activities will continue to heal my wounds.

A couple of weeks shy of 5 months since dday one fact seems immutable: her A will have a prominent position in my head for a long, long time.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Ship righted for now.

I will say that my greatest success so far is that my kids have no idea of the internal strife Im still facing.

Im sure its not the greatest testament to MB, but everytime I have my 'lows', what keeps me balanced, what keeps me from jumping of the bridge, what keeps me coming home every night, is the thought of not being around my kids everyday.

The truth is I love the SF my wife has brought to our bed and I love the affection and the UA is awesome. Im feeling an attraction to her not felt in many, many years. But the thoughts careening thru my head at times can shift my love to other things not conducive to recovery in a heartbeat. The anger triggered by these thoughts seems almost like it will never subside.

At this point, the only thing that really keeps my here is my children. Cant argue with the truth.

Which if true makes me a user. Makes me someone using my wifes body for sexual gratification. Makes me a lot like her AP. Not 100% sure if the creator of this program would approve of the way Im running my recovery.

I am believer in that time will continue to heal my wounds, however. I am also a believer in that the SF Im enjoying added to mountains of UA time and other recreational activities will continue to heal my wounds.

A couple of weeks shy of 5 months since dday one fact seems immutable: her A will have a prominent position in my head for a long, long time.


I hear ya. I know that I cycled through a whole range of feelings and emotions. One minute I couldn't keep my hands off of W, the next I was wretching at the thought of what they did and didn't even want to think of her. Sometimes I couldn't stand looking at my kids and contemplated leaving for them. It all balances out over time. We BS's have this girl that hangs with us all the time... Abby.. Abby Normal... She affects us in almost every way until the roller coaster comes to a stop.

I constantly told my W that I didn't want sf because I felt like I was using her. Sometimes she saw it, sometimes she didn't. It was opportunity for us to talk and learn and grow.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/26/11 01:38 PM
I feel like I could've written this same post...

I long for the day when the pain of what happened, and knowing it can never be undone, goes away.

My children only see or know 10% of what a srtuggle it'as been, although both have talked about their concern about my physical status since dday. I believe they do know, however, that they have been my main source of energy in the fight to end the affair and save my marriage.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Heard from OMW.

One of my best friends who was a partner of OM and who introduced us to them years ago has learned of the A.

I dont speak much to him anymore for any number of reasons but him not knowing of the A was something I liked. She said she is having difficulty with OM and wanted to knock him "down a peg". Not sure how this does it other than the fact that my friend, too, was a WS who lost everything in his life. In fact, OM and my friend were partners during my friends A and would rip him for not working and spending his day at hotels with his girlfriend. Ironic, actually.

I guess OMW felt OM's holier than thou attitude towards my friend's affair need to be adjusted.

My friend has not called me since learning this but now I suspect several other people I had no desire to know about the A will now know.

Im very embarassed for my wife and me.

Never ends.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/03/11 06:55 PM
Mike:

You have NOTHING to be embarrassed about. Unlike millions of people who live in horrible marriages that are crippled by adultery, you and your FWS have slain that monster, and now have a marriage to be proud of. Your friend who lost everything? He knows this obviously.

Concentrate on the wins in your column!

Cheers,
Sweetpea
Thanks.

Spoke to another friend today who himself was a WS and knows of the A. Told him that our friend knows now and he said that 2 years later people are finding out about his cheating.

As his wife said, its part of us forever.

Truth from a BS.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/04/11 12:01 AM
Mike:

Yup, it is part of your life forever. Will be part of mine, too, and I never asked for it. Was faithful. Loving. Supportive.

It sucks to think about it. I mean really think about his affair.

I'm waaaaaay better when I think about the work we've done since his affair and how it has strengthened our marriage. That's what I cling to in order to move forward.

Could that be of help to you? To focus on telling people what a godsend MB is and move the convo from YOUR life to theirs? Talk about how your life is now, not during affair or the horror right afterward.

Just some thoughts. Good luck!
Sweetpea
I just see the sadness in my wife's eyes when she detects me entering a low moment and I know she realizes that our life is forever changed. We love each other and thanks to the great advice here we have become a much better couple.

Next week is 5 months since dday and light years from where my head was just a few months ago.

And I too spend my time thinking about us since dday and how great things have become. The truth is I cant even think about life before dday. I dont even like looking at pictures taken over the years she was doing her thing.

We are doing OK.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
As his wife said, its part of us forever.


Children, particularly, remember the fallout from their parents' affairs vividly. I still strongly dislike my mother -- even though I choose to care for her -- twenty-three years after her affair. And today, we barely have any contact as she's done little to repair her Love Bank balance. I think our relationship would have been in much better shape had she chosen to repair the marriage she was in rather than divorce my dad and marry her affair partner.
Showed my wife the thread from the WW who listed the things she never thought of during her affair.

Maybe it was a LB, maybe not, but the eloquence by which she laid out her feelings was beautiful in many ways and I definitely feel my wife has had the same thoughts but doesnt have the ability to write or speak that way.

My wife simply said, "yes".

How is that for openness from my FWW?

In some ways if my wife was a better speaker or writer and could tell or write me her innermost thoughts I might be in a better spot today. Thats why I showed it to her when I thought I wouldnt because I like when she sees others' thought processes are just like hers. However lame and intensely hurtful they are.

I got what I got though.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/07/11 03:00 PM
Mike:

How did you approach showing her? Did you just show it?

Boy, if I would show that to my FWH, he would think I was trying to PUNISH him, to make him feel as low as the FWW who posted. That he needed to grovel more.

I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to rub our FWS's noses in their shame.

Yeah, it's tempting to do it, but a LB methinks for sure.

Or maybe someone else can illuminate on how sharing that FWW's post could NOT be a LB?

Sorry, Mike, just my thoughts ...

Sweetpea
Another thing that has me riding the lows lately is the fact that I have given up or lost nearly all my friends since dday. These are guys and one girl who I have know for 25 years and are my closest friends.

And now that one of them has learned of the her A I have no interest in speaking to him at all and I wont. I have to assume that this tidbit will make the rounds and therefore I have no interest in speaking to any of them.

A few others, however, have no way of learning about it and Ive, for some reason, opted to not speak to them either.

When my wife changed her cell number, for some reason she changed my number too. I neglected to tell any of my long time buddies. Now, certainly they could have called my home or sent emails and havent so some of its on them too. But when your contact info changes, it should behoove me to let them know and 5 months later, I havent.

Not really sure why other than I wont be able to face the friends knowing they know my wife did what she did. It makes me look like less of man particularly since much of her A happened virtually under my nose. Makes me look like a moron, too. Plus maybe nobly Im protecting her from the shame of her actions. Yea, lets go with that.
Originally Posted By: sweetpea2011
Mike:

How did you approach showing her? Did you just show it?

Boy, if I would show that to my FWH, he would think I was trying to PUNISH him, to make him feel as low as the FWW who posted. That he needed to grovel more.

I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to rub our FWS's noses in their shame.

Yeah, it's tempting to do it, but a LB methinks for sure.

Or maybe someone else can illuminate on how sharing that FWW's post could NOT be a LB?

Sorry, Mike, just my thoughts ...

Sweetpea



I was on a long road trip yesterday and during a break I went onto the site and read the post. I debated if I should show it to her or not and after several hours alone in the car, I decided yes she should see it.

My wife lacks the ability to express her feelings like that but I do believe she feels that way, for sure.

It was NOT done to hurt her and yes Ive been down lately, cant deny that here, but after reading it myself, I felt good about things. I learned how hurt some WW are and I wanted my wife not to feel so alone.

I got a better appreciation for the pain a WW feels and permanence of all this.

I said on that WW's thread: people make mistakes.

Its how that act to fix the mistake that is important. Actually all the following posts on that thread were terrific.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/07/11 03:36 PM
Well, if you explained all of that to your WW regarding the post, then it probably wasn't a LB. Hopefully, it let her know how deeply those words touched you, and that they gave you hope.

If reading it made her spiral into a pit of despair, then probably not.

That post hit me hard, too.

Ugh. Betrayal.
She's detected a bit of sadness in me this week and Ive been trying to fight it.

I wanted her to know she's doing everything correctly in making this better but I am lost sometimes.

I said every so often a person WS or BS submits a post that gives me some hope that I can get my head straight, that I can survive this and this woman's post was it. I told her it was written by a WW and if she wanted to read it, she can. No pressure.

She read it and as per usual, didnt have too much to say. But thats the way she is. Cant expect Shakespearian emotion from her.

I sometimes think her inability to emote has something to do with this whole thing. Im not smart enough, though, to link it.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/07/11 03:55 PM
Does she never have anything more to say? Or does she just need time to process?

In any event, I would follow up and say something like: Hey, you didn't really have much to say about that post I talked about. Is it helpful for me to share those with you, or would you rather not? Is there another way for me to express my feelings to you?

And see what she says.

A silent woman. I think my FWH would LOVE it if I were a little more silent some days!
Dont get me wrong, she a major chatterbox on things that really dont matter: sales at the store, gossip around town, and the like.

On her infidelity, she's said all she can say Im sure is what her response would be. I get a lot of "Im so sorry".

Therefore, to go with further question as you suggest would indeed be the love busting stuff.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/07/11 04:45 PM
Hmmm. Why is asking her to meet the "open" of O&H love busting? You're not asking her to talk about her affair. Just her feelings. Or am I splitting hairs?

If she really has no other thought than "I'm sorry," I would wonder about the "H" part of open and honest.

Can't remember where I read it here, but if she's trying to "spare" your feelings, she's setting herself up for disaster.

Sorry, Mike. This has me flummoxed.
Originally Posted By: sweetpea2011
Can't remember where I read it here, but if she's trying to "spare" your feelings, she's setting herself up for disaster.


Don't bring up her affair again. Ask her her feelings about TODAY or very recent events. Not the affair.

Look, your wife isn't you. She didn't have the awful experience you had. The affair sucked in certain ways, but she did what she did because she loved the guy. Truth is, she might even still have feelings for him. That's the kind of answer you're going to get if she's totally open & honest with you. That's not the kind of answer that's going to be USEFUL in this case. And your previous reactions to that kind of disclosure were almost certainly not pleasant or safe. No wonder she doesn't want to ignite yet another "Mike makes me feel awful about myself until I say I'm sorry again" session!

Those kinds of conversations suck Love Bank units BIG TIME. Stop them.

Keep your eye on the ball: how is she feeling today? What are her plans for tomorrow? What did she do yesterday? Focus on drawing her out with lots of little things. If the time comes that she has a "Come to Jesus" moment about the affair, she'll talk with you about it if you've laid the groundwork that she can talk about anything else without recrimination. But at the rate your going with what I've seen in this thread, she can't discuss it because of how you treat her when she does.

It's a little two-by-four. A month ago I was suggesting to no longer make any mention of the affair and apparently I've got to push the same thing again. You're going to push her away if you keep it up.

You may think that just asking her to read about another WW's story is innocuous. I submit she feels very strongly that it's a selfish demand and -- if she doesn't already -- will very soon resent that kind of "let me educate you, read this" action deeply.
I asked her before I read your post if reading that thread upset her in any way and we have an honesty thing going and lord knows im honest so expect she is as well. She said not at all. I told her why I thought shemay get something out of it. I know she knows im sad at times so maybe you're right and making her read that was a passive aggressive non AO AO. I never thought of it that way.

Thanks.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I told her why I thought shemay get something out of it. I know she knows im sad at times so maybe you're right and making her read that was a passive aggressive non AO AO. I never thought of it that way.


YW. I never quite thought of it as a passive-aggressive non-AO AO before myself... at least not in those terms. But I've learned about myself that whenever I really want my wife to listen or read something, it's usually a selfish demand or disrespectful judgment in disguise. I want to "educate" her or "straighten her out" on something, and use the article/radio show/etc. to try to teach.

It's a technique I commonly use at work, but there I'm not really concerned about building a loving relationship. It's better for me to talk about how the show, post, or article made me feel, and then if she wants the link she'll ask for it. Rather than me "suggesting" (read: demanding) she listen/read...
I understand.

I show her virtually nothing from this website. She doesnt come here on her own. So, very few occasions when I get moved by someone's post I ask her ahead of time if she'd like to read it. I frame the idea of the post for her and this time it was a rare WW post that moved me. I read the title to her and she never is obligated to read it.

The few times that infidelity itsself becomes a topic if its in the news or televsion show were watching and then I always tell her it THAT makes me feel. I dont give her any printouts of the dozens and dozens of infidelity news ariticles and stories I read each month. Im not interested in educating her.

If its important to me, I have to believe she'd see why after reading it.
I can see what your saying.
"In a sacred ground like marriage, you find yourself out of it at certain times for reasons unknown that can be destructive," the actor told TV Week, according to Usmagazine.com. "There could be a demon that kind of comes out and overtakes you."

--Some actor I really never heard of who cheated on his Playboy bunny wife with Rachel Uchitel, Tiger Woods' mistress.

He was horny and weak. And Rachel has absolutely no compunction with sleeping with married guys. Its her thing.
Posted By: BillCarolina Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/11/11 09:56 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Another thing that has me riding the lows lately is the fact that I have given up or lost nearly all my friends since dday. These are guys and one girl who I have know for 25 years and are my closest friends.

Not really sure why other than I wont be able to face the friends knowing they know my wife did what she did. It makes me look like less of man particularly since much of her A happened virtually under my nose. Makes me look like a moron, too. Plus maybe nobly Im protecting her from the shame of her actions. Yea, lets go with that.


YOU didn't commit adultery!!......why should you be embarrassed or shamed?!
My WW had her sleazy A under my nose too....I gave her trust and freedom.....she rewarded me with dishonesty and betrayal.
SHE has to live with that!....not me!
After I exposed the A to our friends my WW went nuts!
She STILL won't have any communication with me....so be it.
The Friends I care about the most have voiced overwhelming support for me and disappointment in her!
As a result.....my Wife won't show her face. She only deals with those people who will tell her what she wants to hear!
I have been honored with the ongoing support from my Friends.
YOU are NOT the guilty party!!.....don't accept the guilt!
Your manhood is intact!
Help YOURSELF!!......don't hold yourself back from supportive friends.
Give those friends the opportunity to support you....if they don't support you, were they really your friends?
All good points Bill. Its the normal guy talk that will take on new meaning.

Another dude having ones wife as long as he had mine would be truly too much for me tell my buddies. They'd understand and support but I still don't want them to know. And since some may know I decided to not contact them anymore.

Affair fallout.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/12/11 05:45 PM
MSS, I'd urge you not to immediately think one has to go "open kimono" when the idea of asking for support to recover from infidelity is raised.

No one is suggesting you must supply dates, durations, venues, positions and variations to anyone. A simple "Mrs MSS had an affair with a POSOM and we're working hard to put the pieces back together. I'd like to ask your help in the following area......" would be more than enough to enlist the aid of marriage-supportive persons.

If you recall from my story, there was such a person, who I was forced to contact for an absolutely ridiculous reason, having nothing to do with asking for her help. She was a god-send, to FWW initially, and our marriage eventually.
I see your point NG. I haves my canned reply should someone ask me if the rumor were true. And its like your reply. In harmless "guy" talk tho, when one would say things like 'your wife looks good id love to..." the dynamic changes with mrs. Mss. I used to love this repartee with my buddies that my wife has taken from me. It was pure lockerroom talk that hurt no one.


Its this reason those guys can't know and some have learned of it and I now avoid them.
HERO

hero [heer-oh]

Noun:

A person, typically a man, who is admired for courage or noble qualities.
The chief male character in a book, play, or movie, who is typically identified with good qualities.

Synonyms: character

"With great power comes great responsibility"- Uncle Ben

Truth is Im not enjoying being a hero. There's really no glory. It's a life that is mixed with angst and pride swallowing in order to protect my kids. I spend a lot of time minimizing my wife's affair. I guess i should be grateful that she has put it behind her and is a model wife. Outside that is terrific, inside my head not so much.

If that defines a hero in matrimonial infidelity recovery, call me Empty Shell Man.
Mike,

Is she being a "model wife" because she is genuinely remorseful and loves you? Or does she act this way in more of a rug-sweeping manner?

I've read both your threads, and I believed she was sincere. Are you beginning to think she isnt?

I might be looking too much into this, of course, and I apologize if I'm misreading something.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/15/11 06:33 PM
Mike,

Hit up the men's recovery thread when you have time, and do some reading from page 1. I'll dig and give you some specific posts when I get off work.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/15/11 10:20 PM
Ok, Mike... so for starters, I present to you my "quick list" for dips in the coaster;

Are we getting 20+ hours of UA time?

How can we meet that goal?

What are my W's top 3 EN's?

What am I doing to meet them?

What are my worst 3 LB's?

What am I doing to avoid them?

What are my top 3 EN's?

How is my W meeting them?

What are my W's worst 3 LB's?

Is she avoiding them?



It's very simple, basic MB concepts arranged in a way that I can go over them mentally at any given time if I happen to hit "crisis mode." This is a small and simple tool you can utilize to begin the climb out, or to avoid falling in a pit.

If the quick list doesn't quite "do the job" then the next step is to schedule a time with your W to redo and review the ENQ and LBQ, as well as to begin doing some hard-set scheduling of your weekly UA (which you should be doing anyway).

Personally, NGB and I keep a binder with all of our Q's and any reading we have done.


Work with that for now and see if you notice improvement.
We bought a new color printer so we can print out years worth of picture from our computer. And there she was in one on a family vacation wearing OMs diamond necklace, not a wedding or party but trip to a nature preserve. You may remember, the necklace "she hardly wore".

Recovery is not going well. My love for her seems to be diminishing and Im in this marriage to protect my children from saddness.

Ive tried very hard to get thru this. The best I could. I tried all the those techniques and it comes back to the same thing: her complete disregard for me and our family for such little gain consumes my daily thought. I feel like I have nothing to build on. It went on for so long.

Things have taken a bad turn in last week. Not sure what I want.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/11 12:01 PM
Mike, can you endure yet another analogy from me?

At one time I worked under a third-level Engineering manager during a period of great upheaval in our industry, with new product lines being introduced roughly every year. Getting these designed, tested, and manufactured was always a struggle with predictable contention among departments for resources, and attention to their needs. This manager's chief job was to optimize the process and schedule, so that the entire monster moved forward rationally. He was VERY good at it.

During meetings, when Group A would propose this, Group B offer that, and Group C would think both options were wrong, he'd let them churn for a while, and then he'd take over the meeting by saying, "Gentlemen, the first step is to separate the variables!" And he'd bring order to the chaos by re-orienting the discussion away from organization lines, to what was germaine to the product - time, funds, physical resource, and the GOAL!

(Not important to my point, but when he retired, we decided to get him an A-1 variable separator, so someone acquired a gorgeous replica samurai sword!)

All of this is to point out that you, too, must focus on separating the past which has so grievously hurt you from the future you and your family have the option of creating.

It would be awful, Mike, if your fixation on the past causes you to punish your wife of TODAY, for the crimes of your WW of former times. I do not believe, based on what you say, that she's anywhere near the same person. She is, however, unable to undo what she did; she cannot "un-wear" the necklace. She can now apologize for its existence in your lives, with all the baggage that goes with it. She can also feel worse than you do (and she does), that the pictures reminded you of the fact.

All BSs have triggers (I just had a very bad one this weekend), but as long as we understand they are ephemeral unrealities that cannot hurt us, they WILL NOT hurt us, beyond causing mental discomfort for a limited time. BANG! Now you're past that trigger. If FWW has any sense at all, she's already editing your computer's picture trove for similar items.

Develop the strength to fight through the immediate hit from these things. Do NOT let your past dictate your future, MSS.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/11 12:59 PM
Must've been something in the water...had a really bad weekend as well....alot of triggers.

W was depressed/sad this weekend, saturday really, at our kids soccer game / park.

Basically, she worries if she's going to be "okay"...says there are still days the whole magnitude of what she did gets to her, that she was capable of doing this...what does that say about what I value? she asked.

She stated she feels like its going through the stages of grief...and some stages bubble up again from time to time, that they need to be exhausted...she spoke about mourning, mourning the loss of our old marriage, the 'idea' that she'd have only 1 partner in her life, the loss of our kids' innocence in all of this...

It's weird, becasue I feel I've already been through all these ebbs and flows of grief, the loss....why does it seem it's just hitting her now?

She tried to joke with me, giving me the Costanza line: "it's not you, it's me"...She says she is diaapointed, disgusted in her behavior....cried a little bit, saying again how sorry she is for it all...says she had so many other options to cope with things than this, and has emotionally and physically damaged herself...

She kinda cut me off at the pass and said no, there's been no contact at all -- I have no desire to contact OM...why? to take myself BACK to that dark place when I am trying to move forward?

I do reiterate her worth, her value, working the MB plan, etc.

She ended it all by simply saying it looks like it will just take more time, that she wants the pain to go away, that she feels close to not having any more tears to cry about it all, just get going forward.

On a good note, I guess, W took me out to dinner last night to, as she said, try to reverse the downer from Saturday...

Mike, like you, some days I simply just don't know and wonder...really just wonder if there's too much damage that was wrought...killing the affair seemed easy sometimes compared to this...

Thanks.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/11 01:22 PM
...just to add:

She seems now to be questioning the WHY? of it all, as in:

"WHY would I do this and jeopardize everything? What is wrong with me (W)..."

(like she's 'finished' processing the 'what' of the A, and has moved on to the 'why'. Normal??? Not being a FWS, I don't know).

Thanks.
Mike,

NG has an excellent point about moving forward with the wife of today and that she cannot change the past, although she wishes she could.

Only you can determine if she is genuine in her remorse over her betrayal, not us. From what you have written, she is. MB principles can help, or other attempts, when both spouses are committed to trying.

Here is my question to you: Do you think that you're beginning to not want to reconcile? MB works - however, not all marriages can be recovered successfully.Its working for NG and helpfordad is getting there. The harsh reality is, though, that while your wife may be doing whatever she can, the damage is done. No betrayed spouse is required to stay with a wayward spouse, regardless if they are following MB principles or another form of support.

Sometimes the idea of working on personal healing can be overshadowed by the idea of healing the marriage, which can be a problem. And no marriage should be held together solely for childen - as a product of that myself, it only leads to more problems.

It sounds to me (and I could totally be wrong here) that you're questioning if you want to remain married, and that feeling is natural and your right to have. Since I first read your threads I was pulling for you. I still am - whether that means you decide to stay or you divorce, I hope you can find the healing that you need.
NG-Always can use more analogies. Theyve keep me both positive and thinking and the above is well taken as usual.

HFD-Too many triggers to remove.

DT-Your last couple of are hinting at the obvious and I unfortunately my kids are genuinely the reason I have not left. I dont want to hurt them. So I am destined to swallow "my favorite description" all her past and try to make like things are peachy.

I will not hurt my babies because their mother had a gun of her own to our family life. And, yes, she is the ultimate in remorsefulnes. My cousin said I have a right to be happy. So, when Jr. goes to college I can then make moves such as you decribe because I made a committment when he arrived Id be his full time father. We can see if I can be happy then. Now, its just Empty Shell Man. Living civil and trying to love her is all I can do.

Truth.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/11 02:23 PM
Mike,

even this weekend, with what I described earlier, my W said "you have every right to still go, whenever you choose, becasue I have caused alot of damage and it could be too much for us"

One fear is too many triggers for the rest of my life...even watching an on-demand movie this weekend -- does everyhting have to be about sex, and doing other men's wives? How long until my W stops turning her head to look at gray Ford trucks that drive by...or turn up the radio for a song I fear has lyrics that 'mean something'...or driving her into grad school, located in OM's county (but nowhere close to him, thank god)...

At disclosure, I said to myself I'd give it 6 months til exposure...at exposure said I'd give it 6 months til my birthday...then 6 more months til the 1 year mark of exposure...by next summer it'll be 2 years since trhe affair...can I hold out til then?

Maybe I'm / we're getting there, and I just don't know it...

It was a bit funny that my W and I both disclosed a secret fear we've had is that each of us is hindering our own recovery...she said it's difficult for her to live with what she's done...and then see me in one of my moments...and that just compounds her despair/pain (not blaming me at all, just being O&H)...and I shared when I'm down, it's not to ounish or get back at her at all -- for the love of God I want this to be really our past...we both are a bit impatient...as my W sometimes said, I wish there was a way to make the memory of it all just go away...

And Mike, yes, I think about the fact that I could be w/ someone else...they'd have their own baggage, it wouldnt erase what my W did, but it would be with someone who didnt do this to me...different baggage, at least.

Hmmmm...
Mike,

I respect your committment to your children. I get what you're saying - my mother tried keeping it together, for the children (me and my sister). I think she also planned to file once we graduated high school.

It made things a hundred times worse, they ended up divorcing while I began middle school. divorce is awful for families, but so can waiting it out. Even as a child, I came to recognize that my parents splitting was the best course of action for them - and for us as a family. Two people, married and living together, when one or both aren't in for it, isn't good. In your case, although you have made it clear that Wife is remorseful, the damage is done.

Living as an empty shell can and most likely will impact the children. I viewed it like ripping off a bandaid - painful, yes, but best to just get it done and rip it off and get it over with. Helps with healing.

But thats just part of my story, and things are different for everyone. Is your wife aware of how you feel, and what you may do when they graduate high school?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/11 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: DizzleTelevizzle
Mike,

I respect your committment to your children. I get what you're saying - my mother tried keeping it together, for the children (me and my sister). I think she also planned to file once we graduated high school.

It made things a hundred times worse, they ended up divorcing while I began middle school. divorce is awful for families, but so can waiting it out. Even as a child, I came to recognize that my parents splitting was the best course of action for them - and for us as a family. Two people, married and living together, when one or both aren't in for it, isn't good. In your case, although you have made it clear that Wife is remorseful, the damage is done.

Living as an empty shell can and most likely will impact the children. I viewed it like ripping off a bandaid - painful, yes, but best to just get it done and rip it off and get it over with. Helps with healing.

But thats just part of my story, and things are different for everyone. Is your wife aware of how you feel, and what you may do when they graduate high school?


This, sir, is not Marriage Builders advice. The example you give, and how it is "better to divorce" speaks of people who are not commited to creating and maintaining romantic love in a marriage, which is a requirement to recover and protect a marriage.

While some people simply cannot forgive adultery, following the recovery plan provided within this program creates the best chance scenario to find out.
No, it sure isn't. I think Mike is at the part of the rollercoaster where he realizes that following MB advice may not help heal the damage caused

And the example I used is of a marriage where the damage was done was too great. And I'm not a Divorce-Only person. It seems that is not clear from what I've stated earlier, I'll work on not coming across that way.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/11 11:35 PM
Originally Posted By: DizzleTelevizzle
No, it sure isn't. I think Mike is at the part of the rollercoaster where he realizes that following MB advice may not help heal the damage caused

And the example I used is of a marriage where the damage was done was too great. And I'm not a Divorce-Only person. It seems that is not clear from what I've stated earlier, I'll work on not coming across that way.


Its a dip in the coaster. A low point. Making permanent decisions based on these fluctuations is one of the things you don't want to do. The common mark is two years; if after two years your marriage is not better than before the affair, chances are it won't recover.

You live "in the space between two heartbeats."
Originally Posted By: DizzleTelevizzle
No, it sure isn't. I think Mike is at the part of the rollercoaster where he realizes that following MB advice may not help heal the damage caused

And the example I used is of a marriage where the damage was done was too great. And I'm not a Divorce-Only person. It seems that is not clear from what I've stated earlier, I'll work on not coming across that way.



Phffffthbbbt!

Mike (and HFD),

Let me tell you this is some of the worst recovery advice I've heard. Let me encourage you guys being just a little further down the track than you... Our roller-coaster is pulling into the gate.

At one year I was ready to be fully recovered... Didn't happen. I still had ups and downs. There were times I wanted to jump off the coaster as we were going into another loop. just wanted to quit. had enough and thought I was too damaged, too heartbroken, too crushed, never able to trust again. There were days that I felt so bad that it was darn near close to DDay in the way I felt. Sometimes it lasted a week, sometimes a day or an hour... Sometimes it built over a few weeks. Truly there were times I was simply done. Didn't care if God turned her into the blessed virgin and she was the subject of beatific visions in Washington DC.


BUT!!!! With hard work.. HARD work, the hills on the coaster get smaller. They did for me. You get less of that queasy feeling. Your senses are more about you. Know what the scary thing is? That in the middle of it all, you will think you are thinking clearly and that your feelings are your feelings and you just KNOW that too much has been said and done...

but it's really not clear thinking. It's BS fog. It's that turmoil we deal with through that first year or two...

Brothers, it gets better. I am about 99% on board with MB (to be honest, nothing is perfect), and it is really the only thing we have tried in three years that really, honest to gosh works. Easy it is not, effective it is. This is par for the course brothers.

let me tell you something you have and maybe are losing sight of... A repentant wife. It is a gift that is immeasurable. It is a blessing that maybe you haven't fully realized yet. Mourn the loss of your marriage guys, but at some point we have to quit crying over what we've lost, pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and either embrace the opportunity for a new life, or head for the door. I can tell you, being a little ahead of you that embracing the new life with a repentant wife is something that will blow your socks off... The door? It is a world of unknowns. No guarantees, no promises except that life will get immeasurably more complicated.

Hang in there guys!

CV
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: DizzleTelevizzle
No, it sure isn't. I think Mike is at the part of the rollercoaster where he realizes that following MB advice may not help heal the damage caused

And the example I used is of a marriage where the damage was done was too great. And I'm not a Divorce-Only person. It seems that is not clear from what I've stated earlier, I'll work on not coming across that way.


Its a dip in the coaster. A low point. Making permanent decisions based on these fluctuations is one of the things you don't want to do. The common mark is two years; if after two years your marriage is not better than before the affair, chances are it won't recover.

You live "in the space between two heartbeats."


Mike,

Another thing or two also occurred to me (thanks to my darling wife)... Are you living dishonestly in your marriage? Does your wife know that you are secretly planning on bailing out after the kids move away? What are you really working for? It sure doesn't sound like recovery. Recovery means recovering your marriage, not just holding out miserably until the kids are of age. Eventually your wife will pick up on this. She will see what you are doing. If you think the affair destroyed her, think of what this will do to her...

Living for years under the assumption that things will continue to get better... Placing all her trust in you, hoping and waiting for final reconciliation and then finding out that you were just waiting it out... Doesn't smack of honesty or openness to me at all.


The other thing that hit me tonight is that some things have played in here that have really hindered recovery... (see if on HFD's page as well with his wife not leaving her job) Money. I hate to bring it up, but this settlement thing with the OM and getting the money payments seemed to really kick a big setback in you that I am not quite sure that you realize yet...

Have you ever watched the Quiet Man with John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara?

There's that scene where they finally get the dowry that her jerk brother has been withholding and they toss it into the furnace. They got the dowry money out of principle, but didn't keep it... out of principle...

CV
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/18/11 12:14 PM
CV,

Thanks so much....

I think part of the rollercoaster has been waiting out my W as well for her processing and healing, which sometimes makes me resentful, you know?

In reviewing the events of the weekend, I wonder if my filter is so screwy now that I don't always hear what she's really saying...my W spoke about how guilty, ashamed she is at herself -- how she caused trauma to herself as well -- and that her words can't undo what she did, even though there are times she'd like to be able to say the right things to make it all right.

I heard this as some 'fog' of hers to want to talk to OM again...so I said to her whoa, there was already that incident of contact in work over the summer, where you said you told OM you're committed to H, marriage, kids, etc. and to leave you alone.

W responded that one aspect of her pain is that she could apologize to all parties until the cows came home, but it really doesn't matter or excuse her choices, the damage...and doesn't do anything for the pain.

So, where am I now?

This past summer was the 1 year anniversery of dday...right now, this fall a year ago, the PA ended but ciontact dragged on (and off) for months. In March I exposed and, I believe, killed the A once and for all?

Is the track I'm on normal? will things truly be better past the 1 year anniversary of exposure....next summer, at the 2 year mark of dday?

Thank you.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/18/11 12:20 PM
CV, I'm going to take a different tack on MSS's mental gymnastics. (MSS, if you'd rather not endure decidedly amateur dissection, based on minimal information, of your current musings, stop reading. I'll not be offended.)

Anyway, the best way to look at this "easy-out" that is being discussed is in terms of the vector of the position. Five months ago it was "I'm done with her; I'm outta here!". It took a while to get the accession to the prescribed two years before making the decision. Today it is, "I'm only committing to staying for XX years!"

Firstly, "XX years" is a fairly long commitment. And MSS has not said, ".....and I'll not be following MB practices during that time." so remember, "XX years" will be filled with family trips, celebrations, love-making, growth and development - all those things that make a marital union strong. If MSS does not willfully refrain from participating, he will find himself having many more years'-worth of "good" than the several years of revealed "bad" in his wife's actions toward him and his family.

Secondly, as well, having an accessible "out" is often psychologically the key to staying "in". (Research the Western Electric workplace studies in Hawthorne for background.) Trying to reconcile the pre-d-day internal belief of divorce-upon-discovery-of-infidelity with a more rational what-is-best-right-now seems to require an interim divorce-eventually-but-not-convenient-yet stage. (Mine was/is the mental construct of "ending" the first marriage, and "beginning" a new one with the same person.)

Think in medical terms. MSS should continue to share the feelings behind his uneasiness - FWW should have the opportunity of treating them. But telling the patient, "Your unchangeable death date has been set at 25 June 20XX" is not wise.

(Sidebar: If you ever visit Ireland, make the effort to see Cong, the Quiet Man village. It's on a small jut of land between the two large lakes in Galway, Mas and Corrib, which almost create an island out of Connemara, nestled among the twelve "bens" or mountains that dominate the West. It's gorgeous country.)
Originally Posted By: helpfordad
CV,

Thanks so much....

I think part of the rollercoaster has been waiting out my W as well for her processing and healing, which sometimes makes me resentful, you know?

In reviewing the events of the weekend, I wonder if my filter is so screwy now that I don't always hear what she's really saying...my W spoke about how guilty, ashamed she is at herself -- how she caused trauma to herself as well -- and that her words can't undo what she did, even though there are times she'd like to be able to say the right things to make it all right.

I heard this as some 'fog' of hers to want to talk to OM again...so I said to her whoa, there was already that incident of contact in work over the summer, where you said you told OM you're committed to H, marriage, kids, etc. and to leave you alone.

W responded that one aspect of her pain is that she could apologize to all parties until the cows came home, but it really doesn't matter or excuse her choices, the damage...and doesn't do anything for the pain.

So, where am I now?

This past summer was the 1 year anniversery of dday...right now, this fall a year ago, the PA ended but ciontact dragged on (and off) for months. In March I exposed and, I believe, killed the A once and for all?

Is the track I'm on normal? will things truly be better past the 1 year anniversary of exposure....next summer, at the 2 year mark of dday?

Thank you.


You are welcome. I think what you and MSS both really need to work on is awareness. Seasons bring triggers without us knowing it. Fall is extremely hard for me at times because it is when he 2nd A started. It creeps on you and you have to be vigilant going into seasons. Yes, this is VERY normal. For both of you. I don't know a BS that doesn't struggle with this.

Yesterday marked the 4 year anniversary of my wife telling me she didn't love me. We worked to make it a different kind of day. replace the bad trigger with a good one. It's harder to replace bad triggers that good ones. they are far more ingrained in our heads. It doesn't make it impossible though.

Yesterday we worked on replacing it by making sure UA time was there. Talking kindly to each other all day. I called her at lunch to tell her I missed her. We rubbed each other's feet for hours. I talked about all her good traits. I cuddled her.

At bed time, I climbed in and you know what she said? "I felt peace that I have never felt before in my life, my mind wasn't racing or busy. I was still."


For us that was a successful night. I will reinforce it over the next few days to help he overcome this horrible trigger she has over what she has done.

It sounds like I am talking about her, but it's about me too. My eyes are off of serving myself. They are on her. That makes it easier to love her, cherish her, see her for who she really is. This is how healing works for us.

CV
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
CV, I'm going to take a different tack on MSS's mental gymnastics. (MSS, if you'd rather not endure decidedly amateur dissection, based on minimal information, of your current musings, stop reading. I'll not be offended.)

Anyway, the best way to look at this "easy-out" that is being discussed is in terms of the vector of the position. Five months ago it was "I'm done with her; I'm outta here!". It took a while to get the accession to the prescribed two years before making the decision. Today it is, "I'm only committing to staying for XX years!"

Firstly, "XX years" is a fairly long commitment. And MSS has not said, ".....and I'll not be following MB practices during that time." so remember, "XX years" will be filled with family trips, celebrations, love-making, growth and development - all those things that make a marital union strong. If MSS does not willfully refrain from participating, he will find himself having many more years'-worth of "good" than the several years of revealed "bad" in his wife's actions toward him and his family.

Secondly, as well, having an accessible "out" is often psychologically the key to staying "in". (Research the Western Electric workplace studies in Hawthorne for background.) Trying to reconcile the pre-d-day internal belief of divorce-upon-discovery-of-infidelity with a more rational what-is-best-right-now seems to require an interim divorce-eventually-but-not-convenient-yet stage. (Mine was/is the mental construct of "ending" the first marriage, and "beginning" a new one with the same person.)

I smell an engineer. I see what you are saying though. I guess my point is that at some point, the get out of jail free card has to be taken off the table. We have to tell ourselves that we are truly committed. Maybe MSS isn't there yet. I don't know.

Think in medical terms. MSS should continue to share the feelings behind his uneasiness - FWW should have the opportunity of treating them. But telling the patient, "Your unchangeable death date has been set at 25 June 20XX" is not wise.

(Sidebar: If you ever visit Ireland, make the effort to see Cong, the Quiet Man village. It's on a small jut of land between the two large lakes in Galway, Mas and Corrib, which almost create an island out of Connemara, nestled among the twelve "bens" or mountains that dominate the West. It's gorgeous country.)



If ever there was a place that could repair a marriage it would be Ireland. The place where heaven bent to kiss the earth.

CV
Just one of those ferocious down turns on the roller coaster.

We are working through it and will survive.

Yes, she knows my options will always be there 6 months, 1, 2, or 5 years after d-day. And, I told her more than once PRIOR to d-day that with my dissatisfaction with our bedroom life that I will not stay around forever if her interest in sex stays as low as it was. And she knew that meant when both kids are out, I could follow. The laugh was on me as after each of those conversations, she would then go out and give OM the SF. You could imagine the AO that produced early on in this thing.

NG-Your post above is particularly high level reading but I think I got the gist. Maybe knowing my options are always available to me is what keeps me here, perhaps youre right. Maybe its a mental trick to keep my non-antidepressant taking head on straight? Maybe CV is right and it will take every bit of 2 years (maybe more) to get that head to stop thinking bad things. I like the concept of out with the old, in with the new in marriage terms. I broached this topic before; how does one completely overlook past inpropriety (to use a word that doesnt do justice to what a lot of our WS have done) and start anew? Maybe the 2 years of purgatory Im putting her through, the virtual non stop SF she must supply/endure, and leash she wears per our EP is her penalty? After which, we start anew? Ive also said in the past, how much of this will take?

I was already in a lousy mood when I saw the pictures of her wearing OM jewerly so it didnt take any bigger trigger than that. Maybe it was that her parents were wrapping up a particularly long visit and all that implies? We had time alone last night and talked about stuff and we moved forward. (not helping that I caught one of my kids' colds and Im ailing)

I know I hurt her when i get down. I know I dont like hurting her. I know she has been wonderful to me. I know she dies a little when I get into a funk. I wish I could be more like her. I asked her the other day how she handles being with my mother and family who know of the A. Her answer was good: 'I hold my head high. I made a mistake, but the mistake is not me.'

This is not a wordsmith I married. And, maybe someone gave her that but I was impressed by her reply.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Just one of those ferocious down turns on the roller coaster.

We are working through it and will survive.

Yes, Mike, you will. The question is will you THRIVE? I think you have it in you. I can see it there.

Yes, she knows my options will always be there 6 months, 1, 2, or 5 years after d-day. And, I told her more than once PRIOR to d-day that with my dissatisfaction with our bedroom life that I will not stay around forever if her interest in sex stays as low as it was. And she knew that meant when both kids are out, I could follow. The laugh was on me as after each of those conversations, she would then go out and give OM the SF. You could imagine the AO that produced early on in this thing.

Well the last laugh is on her, right? Are you getting those things now? Is your bedroom life better?

NG-Your post above is particularly high level reading but I think I got the gist. Maybe knowing my options are always available to me is what keeps me here, perhaps youre right. Maybe its a mental trick to keep my non-antidepressant taking head on straight? Maybe CV is right and it will take every bit of 2 years (maybe more) to get that head to stop thinking bad things. I like the concept of out with the old, in with the new in marriage terms. I broached this topic before; how does one completely overlook past inpropriety (to use a word that doesnt do justice to what a lot of our WS have done) and start anew? Maybe the 2 years of purgatory Im putting her through, the virtual non stop SF she must supply/endure, and leash she wears per our EP is her penalty? After which, we start anew? Ive also said in the past, how much of this will take?

I think we are both right. Hang on to your options, but keep in mind that to fully recover, there will come a time where you pull those cards off the table. Don't ever expect to look past the impropriety... Affair. instead polan to look back on it in kind of a clinical sense... The hurt is no longer there... like remembering when you broke your leg when you were 8. You remember it hurt and that if felt like you'd never be better, but it doesn't hurt to think of it now.

I was already in a lousy mood when I saw the pictures of her wearing OM jewerly so it didnt take any bigger trigger than that. Maybe it was that her parents were wrapping up a particularly long visit and all that implies? We had time alone last night and talked about stuff and we moved forward. (not helping that I caught one of my kids' colds and Im ailing)

Mike... REST! You have time. Remember that. A few days off from a cold won't halt recovery.


This is not a wordsmith I married. And, maybe someone gave her that but I was impressed by her reply.

Word-smiths are made not born. It is the result of deep thinking and struggling to put thoughts into words.

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/18/11 03:34 PM
The gist of NG's post is the exact same as the recent AoM article I posted; saying that you are going to leave at a certain point in the future based on feelings you have today is only taking into account that you might feel the way you feel today that entire time.

It does not take into account every happy or exciting time.

It doesn't take into account family trips. Romantic dinners. Mind-blowing SF. Intimate chats. Bungee jumping. White water river rafting. Long drives. Afternoon naps.

So, if you only take into account being the lump on a log you are during a dip in the coaster? Sure, you are out in "XX years." Good luck being a lump on a log for that amount of time.
Triple H,

I do like afternoon naps. And I like mind blowing SF.

They are even better in the opposite order. Wooohooo.

Anyway, alls good. Thanks for the words.

The ship is sailing smoothly after hitting some rocks.

mss
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/19/11 12:12 PM
Thanks for the input.

For some reason, I've been feeling latety that

1. I've just had a gut feeling somethings not right, as if there's been contact.

2. Sad and angry, often thinking 'this wasn't supposed to happen to me'

I hope this season and all its triggers passes quickly, and I hope my doubts about whther the affair is truly dead or not are simply that.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/19/11 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Triple H,

I do like afternoon naps. And I like mind blowing SF.

They are even better in the opposite order. Wooohooo.

Anyway, alls good. Thanks for the words.

The ship is sailing smoothly after hitting some rocks.

mss



Brother, we as BS's have our own fog. In that fog we cannot see the way out of our current pain and suffering because that path is lost to our vision.

Watch the river that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BOAT, and ignore what may come in the week ahead.

Ain't no good if the boat sinks in 5 minutes anyways...


Stroke, stroke, stroke!
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/19/11 06:22 PM
Quote:
This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away, to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was! Hm? What he was doing! Huh. Adventure. Eh! Excitement. Eh! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!
Both you and Yoda are too deep for me.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/20/11 02:19 PM
Both you and Yoda are too deep for me.

If Trip and Yoda tangle things up too much, how about John Lennon, in "Beautiful Boy" ?

Life is what happens to you
While you're busy making other plans.


Actually there's another line in there that applies as well:

Before you go to sleep
Say a little prayer.
Every day in every way
It's getting better and better.


(Not today, but I do want to open up a future chat with you about FWW now being expected to "supply/endure" SF to/with you. Pop a flare here when you feel up to it.)
Im in a Starbucks between meetings, NG, whats on your mind about that line?

Before you start, that was a merely tongue-in-cheek comment about the SF my wife and I are enjoying. It was a shot at me that she must put up with it.

I just wish others in my shoes are able to recover or discover a new bedroom life like I have because in my most basic thought processes when I have her, I erase those there before me.

But, whats you thought?
I certainly may come off crude. I certainly may offend some with my attitude towards my recovery and the steps taken within.

While some BS may have had regular sex lives while their spouse carried on their affairs, mine was weak at best. And I complained. And I made it known on multiple occasions before dday that I wouldnt stick around forever if it stayed this way. I used lines like 'i can find someone who is interested in this aspect of marriage if you are not'. Meaning I was not going to spend my nights alone.

So, upon dday and learning of her secret sex life (and I dont give a hoot how much she downplayed it) I was furious. If my libido was low and I didnt have interest in her, thats one thing, but I virtually had to beg for it. OM didnt seem to or at least in the beginning I get the impression it was hot and heavy. I could not care less about the credit card he gave her and chit chat he gave her and all the rest. It was her ability to give him her body.

So, in MY RECOVERY, while I walk as close to the MB line of UA and meet her missing needs, I require, nay, demand a new woman sexually. As I always have communicated my needs to her, i continued to do so and I made it clear if I am going to ever get passed her affair, I need to know I have a committed partner is every aspect of marriage. And brother, bedroom life is way at the top of the list.

I got a little heat from a poster that my "demand" for it is a love buster. Having sex with another guy for 8 years is a zillion times the love buster even though its discontinued. A mere fleeting thought of her with OM, busts the heck out of any love I have for her.

Even with that, I called my wife from the road yesterday to ask her if she felt any 'obligation', any 'strong-arming', or any 'discomfort' or 'annoyance' or anything upsetting about having to be with me as what I termed compensation for her affair. I wanted honesty from her and I told her I would not accept any but the truth. It isnt like she hasnt turned my down a few times since d-day. She said she too needs our newly enhanced physicalness to get passed her actions.

We did talk about how our love making would no doubt become less frequent as we go, but she said in no way does she ever feel forced. I told her that would make me like OM towards the end as per her description and that would be the worst.

She is a beautiful lady and I tell her that a lot. Not so I can butter her up for action later, but because she is and despite a major crack in the road we are navigating, she is doing all the things she needs to heal me. And Im trying to heal her.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 03:11 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She said she too needs our newly enhanced physicalness to get passed her actions.


Mike: Please don't take this the wrong way, because I'm asking in what I hope is a truly sincere way: Does she also say she loves your sex life now?

Yes, I agree that if SF is your top EN, you are entitled to have that need met. And if your wife is smart, she will meet it.

But I always thought the idea of MBs is that it's a two-way street. As in, your wife will WANT to meet your SF need, not because she's afraid she will lose you if she doesn't. But because she looks at you with love and is so close to you, she can't help keeping her hands off you.

Quote:
And Im trying to heal her.


Honestly, I believe only she can heal herself. Only you can heal yourself.

What your doing with MBs is forming a tighter bond, a better marriage.

And, lastly, I'm reading some ... anger? resentment? in your post about sex with your wife. As in, I was denied for so long, by god SHE WILL PAY. Please correct me if I'm misreading between the lines.

Sincerely,
Sweetpea
Yes. There was anger. A ton of it.

Add humiliation, degradation, anxiety, hatred, isolation, ambiguity, and a million other things.

I again asked her today if she is enjoying what we have now in bed. I asked her if she would tell me if it was too much and was forced. She snapped at me and told to never ask that question. I told her I never want to hurt her. Thats the most important thing in my life.

I disagree with healing. Ask any of those BS whose cheating spouse cant get out of the fog if they can heal without their BS on board. I think perhaps after a divorce you can find some healing, sure. But, I think a happy post adultery couple need each other to heal if they want to survive.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 05:58 PM
MSS, obviously, I was not the only one anxious about your use of the word "endure". (It's not easy to determine how well and firmly a poster's tongue is stuck in his cheek, I guess.)

Using SF as a component of a strong relationship requires both parties to enjoy the experience. "Enduring" it would be a contra-indicator. If you are comfortable that your FWW is as fully committed to whatever SF schedule/regimen/routine you are enjoying, that's the important thing I wanted to emphasize to you.
Originally Posted By: sweetpea2011
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
And Im trying to heal her.


Honestly, I believe only she can heal herself. Only you can heal yourself.


Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I disagree with healing. Ask any of those BS whose cheating spouse cant get out of the fog if they can heal without their BS on board. I think perhaps after a divorce you can find some healing, sure. But, I think a happy post adultery couple need each other to heal if they want to survive.


Mike, FWIW ITA w/you about the healing. If a couple chooses to remain together after infidelity, I think the best way for the spouses to heal is to each focus on healing the other, through care, time, committment, honesty, needs-meeting, and so forth. I would like nothing more than to help my H heal from what I inflicted on him, and I feel that he's the best qualified to help me to heal what is broken inside of me.

I think finding healing on your own is much more difficult, certainly not impossible, but at least from my perspective, knowing that what I did caused all this destruction, destruction that has not - and may never be - repaired, well, it makes healing on my own a little harder to come by, if that makes any sense.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 07:01 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling

I got a little heat from a poster that my "demand" for it is a love buster.


Mike, I gave you heat only in regards to your advice to the poster INTERNAL PAIN. Your choice of wording was of concern and I was very specific about what I took issue with.



You and your wife are in enthusiastic agreement about SF and I told you that is what the MB program is all about! I don't consider what you have shared you needed from your wife in regards to SF to be a demand, I consider it to be a condition you expressed that you needed fulfilled in order to stay in the marriage.... IMVHO, there is a VERY big difference.

(BTW, IMO, The Mutually, Pleasurable, Radical Bonding, that you and your wife are experiencing is a good sign in recovery) smile
Posted By: markos Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
You and your wife are in enthusiastic agreement about SF and I told you that is what the MB program is all about!


For those of us who've wondered all this time, I think HerPapaBear just confirmed for us that SF is what the Marriage Builders program is all about. smile
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 07:35 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
You and your wife are in enthusiastic agreement about SF and I told you that is what the MB program is all about!


For those of us who've wondered all this time, I think HerPapaBear just confirmed for us that SF is what the Marriage Builders program is all about. smile


rotflmao
Posted By: markos Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 08:04 PM
I may replace the quote in my signature...
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/21/11 10:47 PM
For those of us who've wondered all this time, I think HerPapaBear just confirmed for us that SF is what the Marriage Builders program is all about.

Can we get an "Amen" from SexyMamaBear? grin
I was looking at the calender and my 6 month mark post dday is around the corner. I reflect on the notion that I, at one time, made it known that I would decide on my future at that point. Was I to stay or was staying too much for me to handle?

Then, early on in my madness and uncontrollabe early days, I made a commitment mainly to the board that I would give it a year as the trauma would need at least that much time to diminish.

I will say that I will need every bit of the year. Im having a rough go of it lately and my mood shifts are relentless. Ive starting taking the anti-anxiety pills and debating internally to restart the ADs which I discountinued in Aug.

Im doing all I can to not involve her in my issues. It is so true that she really is doing everything in her power to meet my needs and I like to think Im doing for her too. But she sees it and as usual doesnt say anything. It reminds me of years passed during the affair when my desire for her and her lack of interest in me physically manifested in huffing and puffing from me and then to sleep angry and sexually frustrated. Its an avoidance/obliviousness that drove me crazy for years that I see again when my moods change.

Hoping its its a phase.

I cant escape the thought that my marriage is ruined. We are living a sham for the sake of the kids. This is my daily thought of late. Sucks.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I cant escape the thought that my marriage is ruined. We are living a sham for the sake of the kids. This is my daily thought of late. Sucks.


Yep. Looks like you're still Love Busting each other; I've covered that in previous posts to you, so won't revisit it here.

You also need to learn to turn your frustration into thoughtfulness and openness; you both need to follow the instructions here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html .
Yes. She's doing no love busting. Its me. Busting it at every turn. Cant help myself.

I think of you doormat as I do it and come here to confess it.

Im bad at maintaining md skills consistently.
Yes. She's doing no love busting. Its me. Busting it at every turn. Cant help myself.

I think of you doormat as I do it and come here to confess it.

Im bad at maintaining MB skills consistently.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/26/11 06:06 PM
Mike, here I go again trying to assess a colleague's mindset from a few typed words.

I cant escape the thought that my marriage is ruined. We are living a sham for the sake of the kids. This is my daily thought of late.

DoNoMo pointed out the probable LB going on, and I'll partially agree with him on his wise opinion. I would, however like to add that LB'ing does not necessarily have to be outward directed. People can, and I believe you currently do, think and act in ways that LB themselves.

For the next few weeks do not concentrate on your current marital status/relationship as a "stand alone" model. In other words, don't compare it to the supposed ideal marriage with which most people enter into the union. Compare you situation today with a series of checkpoints from your past. Is the marriage better today than it was a month ago? Two Months? (I sure as hell know it's better than it was in May!) And as hard as it may be, compare it to the (true) state of your union during her A. (Always focusing on the relative quality of your marriage, not focusing on the awful things that existed then.) If the elephant you have to eat is huge, concentrate on the fact that it grows smaller with each forkful.

Success is a measure not of where we are, but of how far we have come.
Thanks NG. As usual you always know what and how to say it.

I need to give more effort.

I think the easy way would be to leave and I've always taken the easy way. My kids are forcing me to take the hard path. They don't know it but its true without them I doubt id be here now. My focus truly is to be her husband and try to continue our restarted lives together with the goal of making and maintaining each others happiness.

My inability to keep her A out of my daily thoughts is toubling.
Thought for the week:

'Silent treatment is a Love Buster.

Stop doing it.'
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Yes. She's doing no love busting. Its me. Busting it at every turn. Cant help myself.

I think of you doormat as I do it and come here to confess it.

Im bad at maintaining MB skills consistently.



Mike,


From one BS to another... It's self pity bro. I did it. It keeps the rollercoaster going. twoxfour
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/27/11 09:55 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I was looking at the calender and my 6 month mark post dday is around the corner. I reflect on the notion that I, at one time, made it known that I would decide on my future at that point. Was I to stay or was staying too much for me to handle?

Then, early on in my madness and uncontrollabe early days, I made a commitment mainly to the board that I would give it a year as the trauma would need at least that much time to diminish.

I will say that I will need every bit of the year. Im having a rough go of it lately and my mood shifts are relentless. Ive starting taking the anti-anxiety pills and debating internally to restart the ADs which I discountinued in Aug.

Im doing all I can to not involve her in my issues. It is so true that she really is doing everything in her power to meet my needs and I like to think Im doing for her too. But she sees it and as usual doesnt say anything. It reminds me of years passed during the affair when my desire for her and her lack of interest in me physically manifested in huffing and puffing from me and then to sleep angry and sexually frustrated. Its an avoidance/obliviousness that drove me crazy for years that I see again when my moods change.

Hoping its its a phase.

I cant escape the thought that my marriage is ruined. We are living a sham for the sake of the kids. This is my daily thought of late. Sucks.


Sounds as if you are allowing yourself to get mad at WW because you feel secure enough that she is not going to leave you the family the marriage.

And you are on schedule to to get these feelings. At about six months past d day your feelings of increased security are allowing you to enter the next phase of recovery. Known as the anger phase.

The anger phase starts about six months out from d day and this phase can last for about six months.

Now you know why BS's are told it's a good idea to wait a year before making life changing decisions. Also this is why recovery takes two to five years.

Now you know what phase you are in. Keep up the good work.
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
And you are on schedule to to get these feelings. At about six months past d day your feelings of increased security are allowing you to enter the next phase of recovery. Known as the anger phase.

The anger phase starts about six months out from d day and this phase can last for about six months.

Now you know why BS's are told it's a good idea to wait a year before making life changing decisions. Also this is why recovery takes two to five years.

Now you know what phase you are in. Keep up the good work.


Good to know Im on schedule.
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
...you are on schedule to to get these feelings. At about six months past d day your feelings of increased security are allowing you to enter the next phase of recovery. Known as the anger phase.


That's Grief Cycle stuff, though, not MarriageBuilders. An important core concept of MarriageBuilders is that NOTHING and NOBODY makes you angry. You choose to make yourself angry. It's very important to learn how to channel your frustration into thoughtfulness -- introspection or discussion -- rather than an angry outburst.

Frustration is an emotion.
Anger is a choice.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/28/11 02:18 PM
[quote]"It begins with that 1 spouse who in a flash of desperation lifts the burning wreckage and frees the other spouse from the hell they are trapped in. It begins with that one spouse who begins marching through the flames, with a hand extended, refusing to burn any longer - I will not burn, and you can CHOOSE to come with me."

It was like from a movie. I told her SHE was the 1. SHE was the one who picked up the burning wreckage, not me the BH. And it was because of her strength to make us better that we are indeed moving forward.

I have chosen to come with HER. [\quote]

Mike: Apologies if I already shared this with you, but I'm still drawn to the raw powerful emotion of this vignette. As a BS, I just felt like I was burning in pain.

And then I decided to act, and I've never turned back. Never let up on FWH. Does it get frustrating? Absolutely. But my life is worth it, and ultimately, my FWH is worth it, too. I wrote this last week: I married a wonderful guy: sweet, caring, handsome, great father, funny, spontaneous, etc. Now, post affair and post this painful journey of self discovery and maturity, he's even better: kinder, emotionally honest, more grounded, less distracted.

To me, with MB, you're either ALL IN, or you're gaming the system. Even for us BSs, who never deserved it in the first place.

SP
I try to get as close to fundamental following of the MB techniques that I can.

I feel muting my feelings to be very hard. Sure, I dont AO, havent in months. And I avoid any judgements or accusations or really any 'how could you's?.

I get sad. I find it hard to get happy and Im not a good enough actor to act otherwise.

I know, CV, boo-hoo me. Dont bother saying it. I know it.

What I need to do is be a better actor. Pretend I dont have bouts of depression and anger. Pretend I look forward to the future. Act like I enjoy being in social situations. Act like what she did doesnt eat at me all day.

I just read the last 10 pages of this "Recovery" thread and, boy, what a flake Ive become. Is this recovery? Wishy washy intervals of ups and downs and extreme anger and passion, sadness and isolation?

Please dont recite the MB 'to do's' here. I am hitting all cylanders on them. UA, lots. Recreational stuff, doing it. Alone time, no problems. I filling the same ENs I wasnt and he was. Dinners out. Movie nights. I go to freaking malls because that makes her happy. All with a smile.

In fact, most of my lows are when Im working on the road that spill over when I get home.

Working on being happy over the past few days. No issues.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I feel muting my feelings to be very hard.


Then don't mute. Redirect.

As a for instance, think about an image that's incredibly funny to you. For me, it's this video on AFV of a kid bouncing on the bed, then his dad throws a pillow at him and the kid flips @$$ over teakettle and lands, giggling like mad. Right? So even just thinking about it now, I grin. It's freakin' hilarious... for whatever reason, watching someone's feet fly over their heads is just really funny to me.

The next step is to realize that remembering something -- ANYTHING -- carries with it an emotional payload in the form of chemicals in your brain that lag behind the memory by about 90 seconds. That's it. You have a magic minute and a half to do something to prevent a memory from delivering its emotional payload, which is likely to be some cocktail of chemicals to deepen your depression.

Start practicing remembering that funny image or video every time you have a bad memory. Find a way to derail your thoughts into something funny. If you don't dwell on the memory for that magic minute and a half, the payload of depressive chemicals in your brain won't be delivered. Instead, you'll probably get some happy chemicals from the laugh-inducing image you put there instead.

Done often enough and consistently enough, you're no longer attempting to "blunt" your emotions; the bad memory will be corrupted by the memory of all the times you laughed at it, and the emotional payload won't be there to need to be re-routed.

Oh. And take a break from this board for a week or two. It helps.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I try to get as close to fundamental following of the MB techniques that I can.

I feel muting my feelings to be very hard. Sure, I dont AO, havent in months. And I avoid any judgements or accusations or really any 'how could you's?.

I get sad. I find it hard to get happy and Im not a good enough actor to act otherwise.

I know, CV, boo-hoo me. Dont bother saying it. I know it.

What I need to do is be a better actor. Pretend I dont have bouts of depression and anger. Pretend I look forward to the future. Act like I enjoy being in social situations. Act like what she did doesnt eat at me all day.

I just read the last 10 pages of this "Recovery" thread and, boy, what a flake Ive become. Is this recovery? Wishy washy intervals of ups and downs and extreme anger and passion, sadness and isolation?

Please dont recite the MB 'to do's' here. I am hitting all cylanders on them. UA, lots. Recreational stuff, doing it. Alone time, no problems. I filling the same ENs I wasnt and he was. Dinners out. Movie nights. I go to freaking malls because that makes her happy. All with a smile.

In fact, most of my lows are when Im working on the road that spill over when I get home.

Working on being happy over the past few days. No issues.





No 2x4's today bro. Instead try this: Let her know you are hurting. Let her help heal you. Don't hide it or keep it inside. Be O&H with her and tell her this is tearing you up. That you need her help. Let her hold you.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/29/11 12:05 AM
Let me give you one more "tool" to help, MSS.

Yes, the pain remains, and will for a while. You will NEVER be as innocent, or as trusting of anyone, as you were before. All of that is a description of fact.

Now the question becomes: How do you want to go forward? Do you want to face the future without your FWW (either de jure thru Plan D, or de facto by emotionally disconnecting)? Or would you want to move forward with her, in as tightly bound a marital union as you can create?

It is entirely your choice.
Those are my choices, huh?
I was going back in the SAA thread over the weekend and was looking at some of the posters who came spilled their stories took some advice...never came back. Interesting. Id like to read about how they are coping in their lives.

Its just amazing how many people are involved in the infidelity business. BS, WS, and AP who come on here. Its unimaginable how many people in our world who cheat and get cheated on if so many come on here to get help.

Misery loves company but its like an epidemic.
==========

I found this from a thread back a few months ago by Melody Lane:

THE CRITICAL IMPORTANCE OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION TIME TO RESTORE ROMANTIC LOVE
from Effective Marriage Counseling:
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."

This is one of the biggest misses that couples make here. This program does not work without this step. No, 8 hours does not work, 10 hours does not work. It takes 15 hours of UA time per week to maintain romantic love and 20+ hours to create. It does not mean time you spend with your kids or watching TV. The time is most effective spent away from home in an environment that does not invite distractions in 2-4 hour blocks, meeting the top 4 INTIMATE EMOTIONAL NEEDS of affection, conversation, rec companionship, sexual fulfillment.

Once again, I found out the hard way that you cannot cut your hours and stay in love. A couple of years ago, my H and I slacked on this and were down to 6-8ish hours per week. We noticed the romantic love in our marriage going down fast.

Those are some of the top ways where corner cutting causes disaster. Please take it from a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks, and don't cut corners if you want to have what this program offers. It is not easy at first to implement new behaviors, but once learned, they become second nature.



This was from a thread about cutting corners in the MB process.

This is interesting thing. The undivided attention sessions. Yes, hard to do with children around but we do quite a bit but Im fairly sure we dont hit weekly minimum of it.

I think a lot about the UA required of us. I liken it to when your parents caught you smoking cigarettes they made you smoke the whole pack one after another. With a spouse's affair uncovered, you now will have to spend what is heretofore an unimaginable amount of time together alone.

I read the message as to why. The alone time allows for many, many things that didnt exist prior to dday. SF, conversation, or simply affection. All outstanding albeit missing elements of our life before dday. Not to mention the sheer strengthen of the mental and physical aspects of a married couple happens during UA.

I thought about Melody's post a lot today and maybe my recovery is slowed or beset with major downers because Im resistive of UA and becuase the lack of UA we're giving each other Im opening myself to failure. (ie. depression, thoughts of leaving, bad movies in head, sadness, and all the others)

Since I still have troubles with the mental images, the concept of engaging in a few hours of UA in a typical evening is a standoff going off in my head all the time. I know the UA will help with the images. But the images dont help with the UA.

Chicken or the egg.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/31/11 11:20 PM
Mike:

I had those images, too. Horrible. But I wanted my husband back. The good guy I thought I'd married. And now I have a guy who isn't going to cheat again.

So it's not really chicken/egg. It's how to I make a delightful chicken salad out of the leftovers of my marriage. (OK, really bad metaphor, but you get my drift.)

I couldn't even let my husband touch me for weeks. Made my skin crawl. Had that rock hard pit in my stomach, seemingly, forever. But I knew my job was to find my way back to him.

And guess what? After all the pain and hard work, I have an even BETTER guy than the one I married. His affair and my pain shocked him into a final phase of personal growth that forced him to put aside lingering immaturity and selfishness.

But he wouldn't have gotten there, if I'd said "Screw you, I'm too hurt." We walked through the fire together. Yes, I'm still limping, but getting better and stronger all the time. With his help.

Hope that helps!
Sweetpea
Push came to shove and I took inventory of where things are in our recovery and I realized, certainly after being asked dozens of times, we are woefully missing the minimum amount of UA required of a recovery. After a moody few days I spoke to my wife about this and we committed to UA.

I think this is the lacking EN in our lives. I know you guys knew this.

Ill keep you posted.
Push came to shove and I took inventory of where things are in our recovery and I realized, certainly after being asked dozens of times, we are woefully missing the minimum amount of UA required of a recovery. After a moody few days I spoke to my wife about this and we committed to UA.

I think this is the lacking EN in our lives. I know you guys knew this.

Ill keep you posted.
I can say that again.

Always the double post from the Smartphone.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/02/11 10:28 PM
Hi Mike,

It's tough with the LTA business, the feeling that if this went on for so long under your nose, how would you spot it again?
I think the hurt is somehow harder when you realise they could do something so hurtful for so long.

and of course we ask ourselves how could we be so blind, so trusting, and how can we move forward.

The mind movies hurt, and sometimes we get so fed up of those feelings that the idea of spending time with them being nice is the last thing you want to do, so it gets put on the back burner. Abit like the dripping tap that needs fixing.

Yeah you know it but........

Honest, it's been a long and very hard road for me and i did it all a bit backwards but doing stuff together, making the time to get to know them again, asking what makes them happy (and listening) those things made it work I think. We never mention the Ginge or the A.

Thats another hard one as so many memories are mixed in and damaged, but I guess you get that one.

I realised this weekend, I had stopped thinking about leaving. That is huge!!

Hang on in there
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/03/11 12:21 AM
I realised this weekend, I had stopped thinking about leaving. That is huge!!

Yes, it is. Bully for you, Tanam! And perfect tenor for a note to provide encouragement for MSS.

Mike, the example is there to be followed.
We had my W college friend and her kids stop by this week unexpectedly who is in the know of the A and instrumental in our recovery with no-nonsense advice and straight forward admonishment of my wife. Ive mentioned her and her husband in my SAA thread.

She came her in the midst of my last run of sadness and depression and she picked up on it immediately. She let me have it like few others have since this started. Nothing like a tough love session to kick you in the you know what.

She suggested we either separate or manage to live separately under the same roof for the kids sake but my depression is visible and possibly worse than outward AO'ing at my wife (which I explained I havent done in months and never in front of kids).

Told her neither are options and Im progressing as best I could. She meant no harm.

--------

Anyway, I do feel Im on target with other BS timeline of recovery so its nice to know there may be silver lining eventually.

I did speak with OMW again the other day as I intercepted an email from her to my W asking if they could speak. I asked her what she wanted and she had some questions:

If OM didnt record their sessions, would my wife have a hatred towards him?

What was the relationship like early on?

And, if I left my W and she left OM would they hook up again?

These were non-sensical, but I did ask my wife each of them. The first answer was that my wife's interest in her husband towards the end was of a transactional nature and little affection was left. (Again, tough to hear one's wife was able to live like that, but lets not go there again.)

The second answer was as murky as the 100 times Ive asked that same question but my W said OM threw money around like King Midas and she got carried away by it. Thats it. That was this great relationship.

The last answer was "No f-ing way". My wife said she almost lost all that was in her life for meaningless baubles and has nothing to show except a scarred husband and eight lost years to make up for.

Its still clear she is having her troubles at home. OM business is in the tank and that is compounding their issues.

Oh well, couldnt have happened to a nicer guy.

----------

Roller coaster is riding high lately. The UA really has been awesome. Talking and looking in her eyes has been a revelation to us, actually.

I know, DoNoMo et al, youve all said it would.

Have a good weekend.
Spent the weekend doing all to keep positive and the love flowing. Thought about depression and how I thought I was doing a good job shielding the kids from it and how I need to do better at keeping it from showing its ugly face.

To hammer home the point, on the front page of cnn.com had this link: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/07/health/dad-depression-affects-kids/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The level of the destruction that an affair creates is beyond any philanderer's conception. Its interesting that the human brain will allow such activities as adulterous affairs to continue despite what the participants HAVE to know is unrepairable damage to everyone.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/08/11 02:50 AM
The level of the destruction that an affair creates is beyond any philanderer's conception.

The destruction, as you're discovering, has width, as well as depth, so in addition to hitting the principal victim with extraordinary force, the impact resonates through children, parents, friends, coworkers, people that had little/no control over the contributing environment (like both partners) or the decision to stray (as did the WS).

I have a very close friend - the one I stayed with during the OOP banishment - who is (believe it or not) more highly focused on religious thought and structure than our own CP. He was a huge support to me during my worst time (basically kept me alive for two days), and it was only months later that I learned that he had watched his father conduct multiple affairs while my friend was a young man. He firmly believes that he was burdened with being a witness to that multi-year horror so that forty years later he'd be equipped to counsel me. He also warned me to the possibility was that I was probably karmically destined to aid some other BS in the future.

So, all of this being prologue, my point is this: You will be the best unguent to help heal ALL the collaterally damaged persons in your particular situation. As children see you recover, as friends watch you reconnect, as family observe your renewal, THEY will take strength from YOU.

I watched Bruce Almighty over the weekend. My closing exhortation to you is a derivative of something Morgan Freeman says to Jim Carrey near the end: "You want to SEE a miracle? BE the miracle!"
Ah, the 6-month dday anniversary. I wont be getting her any cards for this day. Ill let it pass like any other day. I really dont think she spends a minute thinking about the calendar like I do. Counting the days to mark milestones like many of us tend to do.

I asked her last night if she knew what the today was. Maybe the question was too obscure as Im very focused on May 8 and 9 as the fulcrum in our marriage. With the balancing act still very much in my hands, I was disappointed she didnt know what today meant.

After I told her what the day was she said, "I dont like to think about our life before that day therefore that day doesnt have the significance to me. I have wiped our existence before May off my memory and only look to the future. I try to do everything I can to make you not look at that day as much as you do. Its clearly a trigger to anger and anxiety and if I were you I do more to think about tomorrow and next week, like I do. The affair will not define me or us someday. Until you stop analysing every minute of the time I spent acting unconscionably you are not going to get happy. I want you happy."

She looks forward not backwards. I envy that of her.

Im mired in the past.

Well heres to the next six months and the climb out of the muck continuing.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/09/11 07:42 PM
Gotta keep moving forward.

I'm trying to kick the habit of reviewing my journal form each day a year ago...today a year ago OM talked to her in work to share that his HIV tests came back negative. Does she even remember? You think I'm going to remind her? I wish I could forget...

This month into december, it seems, is a trigger each day.

I am doing my best to remember a few things that NG has mentioned:

"The flowers, not the roots"

and

"The affair is A thing that happened, not THE thing that happened"
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/09/11 08:21 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
...and if I were you I do more to think about tomorrow and next week, like I do... Until you stop analysing every minute of the time I spent acting unconscionably you are not going to get happy.


Question; how did your gut react to this part of the statement?

How would you categorize it?

How do you address it?
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/09/11 08:23 PM
MSS Im glad to see you still hanging in there. I had to take a break from here. Not DR H just from forums and dwelling.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/09/11 08:54 PM
As the BH Mike, I get where you are coming from, but I also get the other stuff she said too.

As for reviewing an old journal HFD, wow thats serious scab picking.

Now stop it. Both of you have WW who made a stupid set of choices. They got found out and both of them are making huge efforts to meet your needs.

Are we ever happy, living in the moment, enjoying what is rather than what might have been.

Nope we are sitting here moaning. Yes Hills I know why you had to take a break, I don't visit the SAA forums hardly ever now. I called back in to post an update and got hooked again.

Partly cos I do somehow care to meet with others who have been in my position, but also to check some ideas. But come on, we are a bit

yes I know you are trying but I want more more more.

I choose to enjoy the changes, look forwards and enjoy today, knowing how different it all could have been.

Lock the journal away HFD, please!!
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
...and if I were you I do more to think about tomorrow and next week, like I do... Until you stop analysing every minute of the time I spent acting unconscionably you are not going to get happy.


Question; how did your gut react to this part of the statement?

How would you categorize it?

How do you address it?


I think shes very anxious for me move on with our lives and for me to stop waiting for history to change. It was the truth and one can't argue with the truth.
Spoke to my wayward husband friend from out of town today. It's great to get his propective on things as hes 2.5 yrs out from his dday. It's also scary. His wife has become a woman he has always wanted intermixed with a crazed loon still questioning his every move despite allowing her all the access to any info she wants. He offered to have his car gps for her. All sorts of eps even though he's not a mb adherent.

He can't gain her trust. I mailed him my copy of SAA. I think they need to rework their recovery.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/10/11 07:49 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
...and if I were you I do more to think about tomorrow and next week, like I do... Until you stop analysing every minute of the time I spent acting unconscionably you are not going to get happy.


Question; how did your gut react to this part of the statement?

How would you categorize it?

How do you address it?


I think shes very anxious for me move on with our lives and for me to stop waiting for history to change. It was the truth and one can't argue with the truth.




Fair enough. I think you give her beneficial thought with that. It's some progress.

However, Mike... I want to know how you really feel about that statement.
HHH-

It didn't bother me. I know she's trying her hardest to make me whole and I'm not moving forward as much as we both would like.

She doesn't want to discuss any of the a at all and I'm not asking about it. But, she very well knows its part of my daily thoughts and there is no way of knowing when that will end.

Mss
This has been bothering me since earlier in the week. Did I overreact?

Prelude: factor that my then 11, now 12 year old daughter learned what a BJ is and her mother's decision to do them to someone not me for a long period of time on dday and our careful post dday guidance of her. (Not to mention my 10 year old boy has shown an uptick in rambunctiousness since dday.)

The other day I get home and my wife is excited to tell me our little girl is going on her first date. After school the next day with a boy we know and another couplevwho we also know. No problem with me.

She the n can't wait to tell me that she told our dd to let the boy know he needs to bring money because "boys always pay".

Now if you have any recollection of my wifes actions over the past years you may see a correlation to her connection to OM. Let the man take care of you mentality has served her disasterously in my opinion. The man in most cases wants things in return like BJs and then he wants more.

Maybe the frozen yogurt will result in a handshake thank you today but someday and I hear soon that boy is going to ask for more for his yogurt dollar.

How about having our daughter pull out money and pay the bill? Refreshing. Unexpected. And sets a tone.

I told my wife I was disappointed in her parenting once again. That advice she gave our kid is so poor in light of recent events that sometimes I don't want her even speaking to our kids.

Am I wrong?
Mike, as a mother of four grown children, and grandmother to six, I think you're both wrong. Why? IMO, a 12-yr. old should not be dating, double or otherwise. Your daughter is not even a teenager yet, when the fun really starts! smile

For your wife to encourage this is troubling but not because of the $$ issue. Call me old fashioned, but your daughter should be going places with groups of friends where everyone pays their own way and definitely chapperoned from destination to destination.

Decisions about parenting should be made together and you should present a united front. It's not easy being a parent and sometimes you have to be the bad guy to protect your children. Next time, a decision like this should be made together and discussed out of earshot of your daughter. I hope you didnt criticize your wife in front of your daughter. That would not be good and it teaches your daughter how to get her way by driving a wedge between mom and dad.
She didn't think this advice through before giving it. I've learned she rarely thinks things through.

My dd to has known and plays with this group of boys fir years. She was sort of a tomboy. I had no issues with the after school "date". Just the lousy advice
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/11/11 03:17 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
she rarely thinks things through



twoxfour


DJ, buster brown.

Just as expecting her to give the same gravity to calendar days was a DJ.

Your DJs, even when unspoken, feed your AO's.

Knock it the crap off, bud!

KK?

Remind me, Mike; what path are you two using to guide your recovery?

Home study?

Online?

Books alone?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/11/11 03:20 PM
Mike,


When the DJ's start creeping into your head, I want you to try to put that away, and go to the "nothing box."

No AOs from this kid. I wont keep honesty and openness out if my marriage. Ifshe does something to upset me she's going to know it. And I expect the same from her.
Posted By: markos Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/11/11 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I told my wife I was disappointed in her parenting once again. That advice she gave our kid is so poor in light of recent events that sometimes I don't want her even speaking to our kids.


That sounds disrespectful. I think maybe you should just stick to telling her that you are not enthusiastic about this plan and asking if the two of you can negotiate something that you will both be enthusiastic about.

PrincessMeggy's post below yours is very good advice, and I agree wholeheartedly. Dr. Harley also mentions that parents need to negotiate two things: first, what rules the children will be required to follow, and second, how those rules are going to be enforced.
I don't appreciate the kid gloves approach to subjects outside her affair that mb requires I adhere to. I understand not bringing up affair related topics and all that. This woman carried on a long term sexual affair under my nose she can handle parenting criticism.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/11/11 07:34 PM
I don't appreciate the kid gloves approach....that mb requires I adhere to....she can handle parenting criticism.

As an avid student of human interaction, I'll be very interested in hearing how this has worked for you so far, and going forward.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I don't appreciate the kid gloves approach


It's close to the heart of why the MarriageBuilders approach actually works, though! State what you think with your fingers pointing at YOU, not at her.

Examples follow.

DJ: "You always give the kids too much slack."
Respectful persuasion: "I'd like to figure out a way to discipline our children that we both agree on."

DJ: "You gave our daughter really poor advice. I'm disappointed in your bad parenting."
RP: "I disagree with the advice you gave our daughter. It really upset me. This topic is important enough that I think we really need to be unified on it."

Remember always: you MUST complain. It's healthy; I complain daily to my wife (and her to me) and we tend to resolve the conflicts before they get out of hand.

You must not criticize. There is a profound difference. The subject at hand does not change. How you approach resolving the conflict DOES, and how the two of you feel when you're resolving the conflict can be AMAZING and WONDERFUL if you approach it without criticizing.


On another note...

I firmly feel twelve is entirely too young to be dating. They're going to "go steady" on the sly at school and think they're fooling you from 12-15 with group dates and such, but 16 is -- IMHO -- the earliest appropriate age for one-on-one dating.
Posted By: markos Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/11/11 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I don't appreciate the kid gloves approach to subjects outside her affair that mb requires I adhere to. I understand not bringing up affair related topics and all that. This woman carried on a long term sexual affair under my nose she can handle parenting criticism.


Criticizing your wife is a disrespectful judgment.

Complaints are fine, criticism is control and abuse.

Even your wife's affair does not give her the right to control and abuse her. If you want to build a happy marriage for the future, you will need to completely abstain from all disrespectful judgments.
OMW sent an email to me this morning.

It was a copy of an email she sent to OM with the topic: DELETE OR ELSE.

The attachment was a topless picture of my wife she must have found on his cell phone.

My wife told me about that picture on dday so not a major surprise and that he didnt delete it is also no surprise. Im sure her videos are to be found on a PC of his too.

What did surprise me was the my wife took the picture and emailed it to him. I thought it was taken by him during a session. My wife said they werent together that day he was begging her for a pic.

Man, this is really fun.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/14/11 02:53 PM
Hey, Mike:

That really bites. Is there any way to stop the OMW from sending these correspondences? To limit them to any new contact between them? I would hope, as a fellow BS, that she would understand that you don't need these images.

Hoping your day gets better,
Sweet
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/14/11 03:20 PM
So, the claws come out, heh?

Obviously, things are not going all that peachy-keen in OM's household. OMW, miserable in her own skin, needs to ensure that your FWW and you are also in the cess-pool.

Very sad, but predictable.

Do not let her interfere with your situation, MSS. Right now, OMW is more dangerous to you than OM!
I think she was just showing me she asked OM to delete. Not so much to make me mad.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/14/11 05:05 PM
When you have contact with OMW and your WW knows and thinks about this is like contact for her........if you want her to put this behind her and heal from the withdrawal of that relationship I wouldn't let that happen.......
I think you should be grateful the OMW is clearing out the past from her life as well and it is good she keeps track of things from her end........
It will send the message to the OM and your WW that the affair is over for life.....
just a bump in the road Mike, it's a long haul to feel safe again and a lot of work.....
It will be worth it in the long term right now it's tough.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/14/11 05:57 PM
I think she was just showing me she asked OM to delete. Not so much to make me mad.

Really? You think her intentions were positive?

WRONG!

Positive action on her part would have been a note saying she's been working on POSOM to compel deletion of all records of the affair.

Negative action would have been to forward the note to you reminding (re-informing?) you that your FWW was somewhat active in the affair as well.

And she chose which action?
The subject line to an email to me, not my wife, was DELETE OR ELSE which was send to OM and bcc'd to me.

It was done as if to inform me she is working at eradicating the digital reminders of their relationship.

And she did follow up with a longer email today outlining her problems with OM. Her recovery is being hampered by continued lies and coverups. She wanted to remind me of certain occasions where my wife was less than assuring to her about OM and my wife's relationship. And, she wanted to tell me that Im still being lied to if I believe such and such. I told I wish she told some of her concerns at such times.

I told her nicely is time to move on. Her with her family and me with mine. She again relayed how alone she is and especiallly with my family who, as you may know, was very close to hers. Plus she just wants to hear from my wife either on the phone or in email so she can get some things cleared. I said no.

She's in distress. I feel bad but I got my own fish to fry.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She's in distress. I feel bad but I got my own fish to fry.


Good call. OMW is reaching out to you for sympathy, and that's part of the recipe for a revenge affair.
Revenge affair? Never thought of that.

Like OMW's husband, I rather have my wife.

No question.


Learning to manage memories and avoid anger is about intercepting the thoughts before they turn to anger.
1. Learn to recognize the initial thoughts that spawn the obsessive thinking and anger.
2. Realize that you have about 60-90 seconds from the time of your first anger-inducing thought to think about something else -- preferably, something humorous yet related -- in order to defuse the chemical payload your glands are about to unleash on your brain.
3. Play back that humorous thought.
4. Repeat ad nauseum.



Ok, I've read a dozen times. Now, to enact this technique.

I thought I was simply p.o.'d but actually there's science going on.

Thanks DoNoMo.
Well, some big doings her in MSS-World. If you have been following this saga since the beginning you'd remember a major non-MB move I made this summer where I sent my wife with her brother to meet OM to arrange payment of money he promised her and I would always be there. He made a nice down payment over the summer.

Anyway, OM was short funds for his next promised payment in Oct and he advised my bro in law that he's not sure when it would be.

On Monday OMW sent the topless photo of my wife to me and I showed my wife she went ballistic. She begged me to let her see him to get her money. As I have had nothing but a remorseful and virtually perfect wife since dday, I reluctantly let her go. I knew where they were going and for how long and I trusted her. (I know all of you will hate that. Again, she has done nothing to make me distrust her and has met all my EN and precautions to the nth degree.)

I told my wife I was telling OMW about the meeting after it happened and Id make up a lie that it was for you to let him know its over and that I would not mention the real reason of talking about the money. Remember, this "guarantee" was kept secret from OMW for years before dday. OM never wanted OMW to know about this deal and I stayed complicit in this BS story for years. Shame on me. Until today.

Today, OMW shows up at my house unnannounced and distraught over this meeting. She is demanding to meet my wife who was at work. She thinks I OK'd a romantic rendevous between our spouses and former lovers. I decided with my wife to craft a letter to her, cc:ing OM and my wife, telling her of the contact this summer and Monday and the reasons for it.

So, I lifted some of my guilt and we have zero reason now to be in touch with OM or OMW going forward. In fact, my wife said if he give her brother money, its found money at this point.

She has no interest in OM and I told OMW this again today.

Many of you at the time said write off the money and move and you were right. I did it then and now to help my wife self esteem. The boob picture on Monday and his non-payment were major hits to it.

But, I feel great because I told OM directly my wife and I dont need him and that was what was eating me all this time since dday that that deviant was living knowing we still needed him. F-him.


PS. Please forgive this last MB transgression. I in no way feel this has sidetracked our recovery in fact my anxiety and depression is at its lowest level in months.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/16/11 09:08 PM
Sigh...


Well, I guess it was RH to show your W the picture.

I would have failed in MB on that one, buddy. Personally, I would have lit the dang thing of fire, then urinated on it to put it out.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Well, some big doings her in MSS-World. If you have been following this saga since the beginning you'd remember a major non-MB move I made this summer where I sent my wife with her brother to meet OM to arrange payment of money he promised her and I would always be there. He made a nice down payment over the summer.

Anyway, OM was short funds for his next promised payment in Oct and he advised my bro in law that he's not sure when it would be.

On Monday OMW sent the topless photo of my wife to me and I showed my wife she went ballistic. She begged me to let her see him to get her money. As I have had nothing but a remorseful and virtually perfect wife since dday, I reluctantly let her go. I knew where they were going and for how long and I trusted her. (I know all of you will hate that. Again, she has done nothing to make me distrust her and has met all my EN and precautions to the nth degree.)

I told my wife I was telling OMW about the meeting after it happened and Id make up a lie that it was for you to let him know its over and that I would not mention the real reason of talking about the money. Remember, this "guarantee" was kept secret from OMW for years before dday. OM never wanted OMW to know about this deal and I stayed complicit in this BS story for years. Shame on me. Until today.

Today, OMW shows up at my house unnannounced and distraught over this meeting. She is demanding to meet my wife who was at work. She thinks I OK'd a romantic rendevous between our spouses and former lovers. I decided with my wife to craft a letter to her, cc:ing OM and my wife, telling her of the contact this summer and Monday and the reasons for it.

So, I lifted some of my guilt and we have zero reason now to be in touch with OM or OMW going forward. In fact, my wife said if he give her brother money, its found money at this point.

She has no interest in OM and I told OMW this again today.

Many of you at the time said write off the money and move and you were right. I did it then and now to help my wife self esteem. The boob picture on Monday and his non-payment were major hits to it.

But, I feel great because I told OM directly my wife and I dont need him and that was what was eating me all this time since dday that that deviant was living knowing we still needed him. F-him.


PS. Please forgive this last MB transgression. I in no way feel this has sidetracked our recovery in fact my anxiety and depression is at its lowest level in months.


I guess it's ok to keep your own wife triggered by showing her the topless photos and then send her to spend time with her former long term lover... I mean gee... What could it hurt right? I mean it's not like relationships have ever sparked back up through contact. Not to mention hindering OMW's recovery as well... MOney has been the downfall of more than just women... Sigh...



CV
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 02:35 AM
She begged me to let her see him to get her money. I...let her go.

There ain't enough single-malt on the Isle of Skye to settle my nerves enough to calmly respond........
Posted By: Prisca Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 02:45 AM
Quote:
She begged me to let her see him to get her money. As I have had nothing but a remorseful and virtually perfect wife since dday, I reluctantly let her go. I knew where they were going and for how long and I trusted her. (I know all of you will hate that. Again, she has done nothing to make me distrust her and has met all my EN and precautions to the nth degree.)

It doesn't matter how much you trust her. It doesn't matter how much she is committed to never falling for the guy again. It doesn't matter how remorseful or perfect she is.

You let your wife taste her favorite drug. An addict cannot be trusted around their favorite drug, no matter how sober they wish themselves to be.

Quote:
Today, OMW shows up at my house unnannounced and distraught over this meeting. She is demanding to meet my wife who was at work. She thinks I OK'd a romantic rendevous between our spouses and former lovers.

She was right!!

Quote:
I in no way feel this has sidetracked our recovery in fact my anxiety and depression is at its lowest level in months.

Your feelings don't mean anything here. You've allowed your wife to be triggered by meeting OM. Recovery is now back at square one, whether you like it or not.

There's a reason this program calls for No Contact for life.
I've made it clear for six months she has less than zero interest in this man. She has done everything ive needed and more. I participated in a hoax for no other reason than to protect money and I regret only THAT.

If I felt but an inkling of withdrawal in her at even the briefest point in the last six months from her, I would not have done what I did.

I ended the secret and ended any reason to ever to speak to them again.

I wish all well. I'm done here.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 03:07 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I've made it clear for six months she has less than zero interest in this man.


It is IRRELEVANT what your W has told you her "feelings" are for OM. You became a part of the vicitmization of OMW when you allowed contact between your W and OM not once, but twice, without notifying OMW.

That is why I haven't posted to you since the first time you talked about this during the summer.

Shame on you.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 04:37 AM
Quote:
I've made it clear for six months she has less than zero interest in this man.

Doesn't matter. You don't ask a recovering drunk to hold a drink.
Posted By: markos Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 04:38 AM
An emotional affair hit is just as damaging as a sexual affair hit.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 04:42 AM
Originally Posted By: SusieQ
You became a part of the vicitmization of OMW when you allowed contact between your W and OM not once, but twice, without notifying OMW.

Yes. You've aided in the continued destruction of THEIR marriage. You've caused OMW MORE agony.

And you don't see a problem with that?
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I've made it clear for six months she has less than zero interest in this man. She has done everything ive needed and more. I participated in a hoax for no other reason than to protect money and I regret only THAT.

actually it hasn't been all that clear... Months ago, she insisted on going to see OM (or you did) to collect cash and build her self esteem. It tells me her self esteem is wrapped up in OM... Or money.

If I felt but an inkling of withdrawal in her at even the briefest point in the last six months from her, I would not have done what I did.

Mike... What do you think her wanting to go back and see OM 1 last time means? It means there is still some kind of connection. OMW realizes this, bro. C'mon. Do you really think your struggles that you've been having lately are abstracted from continued contact (a few months back to collect a few bucks) and won't be now that she has seen him again?

I ended the secret and ended any reason to ever to speak to them again.

until OMW finds another pic or video and emails you again... There really is a reason for no contact. I knew my W's om1. I liked the guy. Had him over for dinner and we all went for drinks one time with friends. Even let him dance with my wife. I thought when I confronted him on the phone we could put it behind us... Until I saw him... I realized that we can never see him again. Ever... either of us.

I wish all well. I'm done here.

Really? Is this what you've been looking for? An out? Gave it the ole college try and you're done? C'mon Mike. You've been triggered for weeks. Honestly, are you working the plan or some kind of modified plan? You can make this work if you follow the plan.

CV



Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/17/11 02:55 PM
If I may summarize yesterday's notes:

MSS: I did something in opposition to the MB recovery principles. I will inform you though I am certain you will respond with disapproval and concern.

MB CHORUS: We disapprove and are concerned!

MSS: That does it! I cannot stand your disapproval and concern. Good-bye!


Is that about right?
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
If I may summarize yesterday's notes:

MSS: I did something in opposition to the MB recovery principles. I will inform you though I am certain you will respond with disapproval and concern.

MB CHORUS: We disapprove and are concerned!

MSS: That does it! I cannot stand your disapproval and concern. Good-bye!


Is that about right?


I've seen in MSS a growing desire to "get out" of the relationship. He's more and more triggered, focusing more and more on him rather than the M, and I suspect that this was the "out" he was looking for. Giving W just enough rope to hang herself.

**WHEN** this backfires, he's outta there.

CV
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/18/11 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
I've seen in MSS a growing desire to "get out" of the relationship. He's more and more triggered, focusing more and more on him rather than the M, and I suspect that this was the "out" he was looking for. Giving W just enough rope to hang herself.

**WHEN** this backfires, he's outta there.



But contact continued. Recovery can't begin when there is ANY contact. There were still meetings going on and plans for money being delivered from OM into the future.

Of course this would trigger MSS and keep him stuck.

Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens when the BS listens to the WS's fogbabble that they are different than the regular WS (not addicted to OP) and some sort of contact is OK. That's what happened here.
Originally Posted By: SusieQ

Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
I've seen in MSS a growing desire to "get out" of the relationship. He's more and more triggered, focusing more and more on him rather than the M, and I suspect that this was the "out" he was looking for. Giving W just enough rope to hang herself.

**WHEN** this backfires, he's outta there.



But contact continued. Recovery can't begin when there is ANY contact. There were still meetings going on and plans for money being delivered from OM into the future.

Of course this would trigger MSS and keep him stuck.

Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens when the BS listens to the WS's fogbabble that they are different than the regular WS (not addicted to OP) and some sort of contact is OK. That's what happened here.


Yeah. As I understand it though, contact was *encouraged by MSS* and not his W. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot, IMO. I am relly thinking that recovery wasn't the goal so much as "waiting it out til the kids were old enough" (a common statement from him).

Cv
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/19/11 11:26 PM
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
Yeah. As I understand it though, contact was *encouraged by MSS* and not his W. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot, IMO.


CV, I haven't been following this thread really but these are from his post regarding the latest broken NC:

Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She begged me to let her see him to get her money. As I have had nothing but a remorseful and virtually perfect wife since dday, I reluctantly let her go. I knew where they were going and for how long and I trusted her. (I know all of you will hate that. Again, she has done nothing to make me distrust her and has met all my EN and precautions to the nth degree.)


Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She has no interest in OM and I told OMW this again today


Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
PS. Please forgive this last MB transgression. I in no way feel this has sidetracked our recovery in fact my anxiety and depression is at its lowest level in months.


To me, this doesn't read as he is subconsciously sabotaging recovery efforts because he doesn't want the marriage to work, but that he is rationalizing why his WW doesn't need to follow the NC rule (she has been meeting his ENs, she is remorseful, etc)

I wanted to point this out for lurkers because it is a huge redflag when the WS has convinced the BS that they weren't really addicted to the OP and/or that the OP was the real "bad" guy. (As I recally MSS did this over on his SAA thread, said that OM forced his WW into the A to keep her job, etc) This thread is a good example of what happens when you start recovery that way...
Originally Posted By: SusieQ
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
Yeah. As I understand it though, contact was *encouraged by MSS* and not his W. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot, IMO.


CV, I haven't been following this thread really but these are from his post regarding the latest broken NC:

Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She begged me to let her see him to get her money. As I have had nothing but a remorseful and virtually perfect wife since dday, I reluctantly let her go. I knew where they were going and for how long and I trusted her. (I know all of you will hate that. Again, she has done nothing to make me distrust her and has met all my EN and precautions to the nth degree.)


Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She has no interest in OM and I told OMW this again today


Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
PS. Please forgive this last MB transgression. I in no way feel this has sidetracked our recovery in fact my anxiety and depression is at its lowest level in months.


To me, this doesn't read as he is subconsciously sabotaging recovery efforts because he doesn't want the marriage to work, but that he is rationalizing why his WW doesn't need to follow the NC rule (she has been meeting his ENs, she is remorseful, etc)

I wanted to point this out for lurkers because it is a huge redflag when the WS has convinced the BS that they weren't really addicted to the OP and/or that the OP was the real "bad" guy. (As I recally MSS did this over on his SAA thread, said that OM forced his WW into the A to keep her job, etc) This thread is a good example of what happens when you start recovery that way...


Suzie,

I wanna respond, but I don't want to contract hoof and mouth... or is that foot and mouth? Let me go back and reread to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something...

CV
I was going to try and hold off from posting until the new year, but Im feeling terrific lately in so many ways and has only to do with my wife.

The venom and admonishment from many was purely based on my ignorance of the MB principles. Although Im annoyed at Susie in particular because in one post she lambastes me then the next she says she hasnt followed my posts very much, I understand her disappointment as what happened a few weeks back was wicked anti-MB and goes against the fibre of everyone on here.

I am very also perturbed at the rest of you too as I have told you ad nauseum of my wifes complete and utter remorse she has shown. I have written dozens of times of her lack of withdrawal and repulsion for her former lover. Yes, you dont live here and cant see her face and look into her eyes and only know what I write here, but despite her perfect ability to lie to me and snowball me for many years, she has shown me nothing but devotion and interest in getting me healthy and moving on after her near disaster.

Of my goals for my marriage, increasing her dignity and self esteem were way up there. I feel like she acted like a paid girlfriend (to say it nicely) and it took all of her self worth over the years.

The interaction with OM and his wife and the money owed us is something that I allowed to blind me to what right and wrong. I admitted that over the summer. I admitted last week that I let that it go on too long and in the midst hurt OMW who in no way deserved to be hurt more than she has been.

I ENDED THIS LAST WEEK. WE APOLOGIZED TO OMW and wrote to her that we in no way will have any contact with her or her husband as we do not need him thinking we need him in any way. Yes, I see the irony in that many of you wrote I should done this over the summer. I agree. Doing it then, I felt, diminished my wifes ability to claim any dignity in this whole thing and would further reduce her ability to recover.

I did not send her to meet him. It was her idea and after six months of looking into her eyes and seeing her love for me, I decided this was her last shot at boosting a damaged soul. If I felt any flicker of interest existed, it wouldnt have happen. Again, if I felt any flicker of intest existed, I would not have approved it. I trust her then and more today.

I know of other BH who post here have remorseful wives who are deserate to get the past behind them. Noone personifies this more than my wife. I respect her desire to fight for what she feels is hers. The two concepts above clashed and go against the NC for life law. Also, what goes against the normalcy of the typical adultery story are many facts of our story. Not too many of the stories I read include families being as close as ours and OMs. Not too many include a large of sum of money owed from one adulterer to the other, from what Ive read. My story has all too many "uniques" to paint it with a broad brush.

I agree it makes my wife look pretty bad that she ended a long term affair with what I believe is no withdrawal or feelings for her other guy. That she could be with him for years without a "love" is something Ill live with for a long time. There is no answers as to why, how, or what.

In fact I think her love for him ended a long time ago, but the addiction to the lifestyle and the comfort of her life is what kept her there. This is where our recovey started six months ago and where it continues today. Sorry if some of the bumps in the road go against the doctrines in the books. I told you once, we;re running our recovery the best we can. I ve taken precaution and we've met each other needs more than can be imagined.

The event of 2 weeks ago in no way changed my wife. We are not started from day 1 again. In fact my anxiey and depresson is at the lowest level since dday. She has proclaimed her love for me and desire for a long life together more now than ever in this recovery.

Lastly, as much as all of you offer invaluable information, inspiration, and straight shooting advice, I think daily posts outlining the ups and downs of the day is something I will avoid. In the end, although all these trajedies are the same in many ways AND they are all different in ways. So, what is mine is mine. Its mine to navigate using the strong base you guys built for me. And its mine to take steps some may find inadvisable. All are done well thought out.

Thanks and happy holiday to all.

Mike
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/23/11 05:32 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Although Im annoyed at Susie in particular because in one post she lambastes me then the next she says she hasnt followed my posts very much,


You allowed meetings between your WW and the OM and allowed it to be kept secret from the OMW.

I didn't need to read anything else to know that this is WRONG.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/24/11 01:11 AM
Happy Thanksgiving, Mike!

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 11/24/11 04:11 AM
Close families, Mike?

One poster here dealt with an affair between his wife and his own brother.

How close is that.

You screwed up. Breath, and move on.


Head up.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I was going to try and hold off from posting until the new year, but Im feeling terrific lately in so many ways and has only to do with my wife.

I'm glad you are doing well Mike.

The venom and admonishment from many was purely based on my ignorance of the MB principles. Although Im annoyed at Susie in particular because in one post she lambastes me then the next she says she hasnt followed my posts very much, I understand her disappointment as what happened a few weeks back was wicked anti-MB and goes against the fibre of everyone on here.

No it wasn't ignorance bro. Sorry, but it was willful disregard. We all warned you about contact waay back when the first meeting took place and you ignored that too. You do know that there is a reason it goes against the fiber of everyone here, right?

I am very also perturbed at the rest of you too as I have told you ad nauseum of my wifes complete and utter remorse she has shown. I have written dozens of times of her lack of withdrawal and repulsion for her former lover. Yes, you dont live here and cant see her face and look into her eyes and only know what I write here, but despite her perfect ability to lie to me and snowball me for many years, she has shown me nothing but devotion and interest in getting me healthy and moving on after her near disaster.

It's ok. I think I perturb most people. We are being cautious and warning you exactly because of her demonstrated ability to lie and snowball you for many years. And we are also glad that she is not in withdrawal and doesn't desire to go back.

Of my goals for my marriage, increasing her dignity and self esteem were way up there. I feel like she acted like a paid girlfriend (to say it nicely) and it took all of her self worth over the years.

The interaction with OM and his wife and the money owed us is something that I allowed to blind me to what right and wrong. I admitted that over the summer. I admitted last week that I let that it go on too long and in the midst hurt OMW who in no way deserved to be hurt more than she has been.

[/color]I guess the problem as I see it is that it was allowed from the start. There's other ways to regain self esteem (whatever self esteem really is) than that.[color:#33CC00]

I ENDED THIS LAST WEEK. WE APOLOGIZED TO OMW and wrote to her that we in no way will have any contact with her or her husband as we do not need him thinking we need him in any way. Yes, I see the irony in that many of you wrote I should done this over the summer. I agree. Doing it then, I felt, diminished my wifes ability to claim any dignity in this whole thing and would further reduce her ability to recover.

I still say it's blood money.

I did not send her to meet him. It was her idea and after six months of looking into her eyes and seeing her love for me, I decided this was her last shot at boosting a damaged soul. If I felt any flicker of interest existed, it wouldnt have happen. Again, if I felt any flicker of intest existed, I would not have approved it. I trust her then and more today.

Why didn't you go to protect her? That would have boosted her self esteem as she would have seen that she is worth something more than money.


I know of other BH who post here have remorseful wives who are deserate to get the past behind them. Noone personifies this more than my wife. I respect her desire to fight for what she feels is hers. The two concepts above clashed and go against the NC for life law. Also, what goes against the normalcy of the typical adultery story are many facts of our story. Not too many of the stories I read include families being as close as ours and OMs. Not too many include a large of sum of money owed from one adulterer to the other, from what Ive read. My story has all too many "uniques" to paint it with a broad brush.

The particulars are the different, but the story is the same. I did the sum for us... There was a couple grand owed me as well... Didn't want it, him, his wife, nothing.

I agree it makes my wife look pretty bad that she ended a long term affair with what I believe is no withdrawal or feelings for her other guy. That she could be with him for years without a "love" is something Ill live with for a long time. There is no answers as to why, how, or what.

In fact I think her love for him ended a long time ago, but the addiction to the lifestyle and the comfort of her life is what kept her there. This is where our recovey started six months ago and where it continues today. Sorry if some of the bumps in the road go against the doctrines in the books. I told you once, we;re running our recovery the best we can. I ve taken precaution and we've met each other needs more than can be imagined.

The event of 2 weeks ago in no way changed my wife. We are not started from day 1 again. In fact my anxiey and depresson is at the lowest level since dday. She has proclaimed her love for me and desire for a long life together more now than ever in this recovery.

Lastly, as much as all of you offer invaluable information, inspiration, and straight shooting advice, I think daily posts outlining the ups and downs of the day is something I will avoid. In the end, although all these trajedies are the same in many ways AND they are all different in ways. So, what is mine is mine. Its mine to navigate using the strong base you guys built for me. And its mine to take steps some may find inadvisable. All are done well thought out.

it's understandable that you might be triggered here while in recovery and that you need a break. The site is good so long as it is not a crutch. Take your time off if it's needed.

Thanks and happy holiday to all.

You too.

Mike
Was it worth it, Herman Cain? Your reputation, family, political aspirations all destroyed. Good job.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/02/11 07:36 PM
Quote:
I am very also perturbed at the rest of you too

So? Is that supposed to make us feel bad for telling the truth as it is?

Quote:
as I have told you ad nauseum of my wifes complete and utter remorse she has shown.

So?
As I said, you don't ask a recovering drunk to hold a drink.

As Susie said, you were cruel to the OMW.

Wrong is wrong, not matter how mad it makes you to be told that.
I think we moved on. That point was made clearly 2 weeks ago.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/02/11 08:31 PM
I missed out on the you let your WW break NC and then try to justify it as the same way a WS justifies doing the OP.

Problem: why is there your money WW money and not our money?

How much money is owed?

How and what did it get owed for?

If not enough to hire a lawyer or go to small claims court then it wasn't enough to upset OMW and risk breaking NC.

You need to learn boundaries as badly as does your WW.
32k. Her retirement funds from before her affair. I consider it ours but she earned it.

You don't know the dynamics here and don't expect you to. She willing acted like a paid [censored] and has nothing to show for it except a dozen om produced videos of her doing him that exist on a hard drive somewhere . She has nothing.

I let her fight for her money as a way to claim dignity.

It's money we planned to use for major upcoming events that om knew full well about.

Now, since I ended that charade and apologized to omw, it's over.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/03/11 01:57 PM
32k is past telling OM pay up.

It was time to lawyer up. And time for lawyer to attempt getting those videos back but more important blocking OM from ever ditributing those videos.
Despite this guarantee mad to me over the years, nothing was written on paper. So a clever lawyer will call it a deal made while horizontal and as such is meaningless.
.
Actually after I confessed all to omw she (who, by the way currently is the sole bread winner over there) wrote me an email understanding what that money was for and would it get it to us when possible. I should have told before the summer meeting, in hindsight.

Omw feels with certainty the videos are deleted. But knowing the deviant sex possessed Mind of many guys, including prince charming, I'm sure they are still being used for his personal release.

A lawyer will get us all into courtbto confess sins. That's not something I look forward to.
Amazing what the anonymous words of a BH in pain can do for a brother not Seeing the forest for the trees.

He gave me lots to think about.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/04/11 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Despite this guarantee mad to me over the years, nothing was written on paper. So a clever lawyer will call it a deal made while horizontal and as such is meaningless.
.
Actually after I confessed all to omw she (who, by the way currently is the sole bread winner over there) wrote me an email understanding what that money was for and would it get it to us when possible. I should have told before the summer meeting, in hindsight.

Omw feels with certainty the videos are deleted. But knowing the deviant sex possessed Mind of many guys, including prince charming, I'm sure they are still being used for his personal release.

A lawyer will get us all into courtbto confess sins. That's not something I look forward to.


32K is an expensive lesson to learn.

I can see trying to decide is it worth going to court an almost impossible decision to make.

I can see you and WW not wanting the videos if they still exist to be distributed on the net or any where else.

I see you and WW not wanting to dredge up your WW's PA in court.


Wise men say let sleeping dogs lie.

I wish I was wise. Therefore it maybe better to not persue this.

Maybe a free consultation with a lawyer. I know there is a poster here that is a lawyer and has given basic advice. Maybe he will see this and throw in his 2 cents.

Thing is with no written agreement and I assume no wittness' this would be a he said she said case that only would make the lawyers money.

I think the money has to be forgotten the way the PA has to forgotten.

It sucks to let go but what one gets after letting go is better.
This day of the month always gets me mad. And true to her form she doesnt even pay attention to dates. Its my thing.

Which is a problem. My whole existence is about dates, numbers, and facts. In my head only, I play out a litany of questions that include mostly dates and numbers. How many times this? When did that happen? And since the summer I have agreed to NOT ask any A related questions despite having dozens remaining, I write them into a notebook where all my thoughts reside.

This notebook is my only outlet (beside this thread) to vent. And I still need venting. She knows it exists. I keep all the letters and notes she sent me in it. And part of what gets me mad lately is that we adhere to MB policy strictly by not speaking of pre-dday things. I dont want to yell at her at all, but this thing was so big that to not ever discuss it is like a giant meatball hanging over our heads.

Since I dropped all my closest friends after d-day because I dont ever want to discuss my wife with them and they may or may not even know of the A, that notebook is my only friend.

Recovery from this is slow. Replacing my anger with love is hard. Being sympathetic to her "mistakes" seem impossible. Wanting to rekindle a relationship with a person capable of her actions over the period in which she did them sometimes makes little sense to me.

Im stuck feeling sorry for her. She killed me mentally and not a little bit physically and I feel sorry for her? Crazy.
Another thing getting me irked lately is she is giving me this 'it's time to just get over it' vibe.

She doesnt say it at all. But, I feel since we dont ever discuss my anxiety and depression at all, I feel that 'get over it' thing is what she thinks.

I may be wrong.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
This day of the month always gets me mad. And true to her form she doesnt even pay attention to dates. Its my thing.

Mike,

We are all wired a bit differently in this respect. I'm like you, my wife is like yours in this respect. Dates have never meant much to her (except our anniversaries for some reason). We need to recognize these differences in each other in a positive light. How can you turn this around? By maybe telling her that certain dates are approaching and you are struggling?



Which is a problem. My whole existence is about dates, numbers, and facts. In my head only, I play out a litany of questions that include mostly dates and numbers. How many times this? When did that happen? And since the summer I have agreed to NOT ask any A related questions despite having dozens remaining, I write them into a notebook where all my thoughts reside.

Because you are holding this in and you two aren't discussing these, they are building with you. Understandable. Dates for some reason stick a lot more with the BS. Are these questions that have already been answered? important ones? If so, get them out of the way. use this as an opportunity to brainstorm with her to find a resolution to this. Do you guys have a calendar in the kitchen she checks regularly? Maybe putting a red dot on days to remind her, will help her respond to you in a way that soothes you instead of avoiding it altogether. Can she read your notebook or is it private?


This notebook is my only outlet (beside this thread) to vent. And I still need venting. She knows it exists. I keep all the letters and notes she sent me in it. And part of what gets me mad lately is that we adhere to MB policy strictly by not speaking of pre-dday things. I dont want to yell at her at all, but this thing was so big that to not ever discuss it is like a giant meatball hanging over our heads.

Hopefully some others will chime in, but if you still have important questions, maybe a onetime sit-down to get these last nagging questions out would be helpful. Write them down for her and let her work through them first. Sit down together and go through them. then be done with them. If the question rises again, go back to her answers and refer to them (not indefinitely). It helped me a lot.

Since I dropped all my closest friends after d-day because I dont ever want to discuss my wife with them and they may or may not even know of the A, that notebook is my only friend.

Have you guys worked on finding new friends?

Recovery from this is slow. Replacing my anger with love is hard. Being sympathetic to her "mistakes" seem impossible. Wanting to rekindle a relationship with a person capable of her actions over the period in which she did them sometimes makes little sense to me.

Mike, this is normal bro. it's the painful part of recovery. Being angry is a good indicator that there is still love. Otherwise, you would be pathetic.

CV
We have plenty of friends, few know of the affair. Its my oldest friends who dont live near but were my best friends for 25 years. And, none have done much to get of a hold of me (she changed MY CELL PHONE when she changed hers, for some reason) directly to my home number which is still the same. This leads me to believe that our dirty little secret has certainly made its way to this group and thus I cant face them. And, perhaps they are a little embarassed to speak to me.

Im not asking these questions. They are bad question referring to things I really dont want the answers to. THATS where my troubles really reside. I want to know more about her bad mouthing me which Im convinced she did plenty of to him. I want to know about sexual stuff. I want to know more about the early days in particular when it was fresh and fun and when she said she was in LOVE WITH 2 PEOPLE AT ONCE. Her words. Im afraid she;ll tell me the truth.

Im still figuring out how the person Im with just seven months later is not the person capable of such visciousness not only to me but our kids, OMW and the baby she was supposed to be watching while this went on. And, this is only during the latter 2-3 years of her A. She was able to be this guy's babe while he went thru rounds of surrogacy with his wife. Didnt she have any self-respect? Loverboy made it very clear thru his actions with his wife that this relationship would only be clandestine. Never making her an honest person. Respect, that is the word. None for me, her children, her employer and child, and zero for herself.

Its that absolute hardening of compassion that is mystifying me.

OK. Just a seven month post dday lament. Ill be fine.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
We have plenty of friends, few know of the affair. Its my oldest friends who dont live near but were my best friends for 25 years. And, none have done much to get of a hold of me (she changed MY CELL PHONE when she changed hers, for some reason) directly to my home number which is still the same. This leads me to believe that our dirty little secret has certainly made its way to this group and thus I cant face them. And, perhaps they are a little embarassed to speak to me.

Mike, I can really sympathize with this, Bro. I mourn the loss of close friendships too.


Im not asking these questions. They are bad question referring to things I really dont want the answers to. THATS where my troubles really reside. I want to know more about her bad mouthing me which Im convinced she did plenty of to him.

OK. You don't really want the answers... I can understand that. During my W's last affair, I was working with explosives on a government contract. Scary stuff (similar to what I did during my stint in the Army to some extent). OM and W actually joked about me dying on the job. Getting blown up. THAT is one thing I wish I never heard, and yet, I am glad for being able to have heard it, so I could work through it.

My wife complained about tons of stuff to OM. I got it all. from how I was (SORRY, FOLKS MAY WANT TO SKIP THIS PART,) Too much for her (if you catch my drift), to how I was a bad father, not like him. In the end, I am glad I knew. I am not plagued with questions. But that is me, and I understand that we are all different in our need to know.



I want to know about sexual stuff. I want to know more about the early days in particular when it was fresh and fun and when she said she was in LOVE WITH 2 PEOPLE AT ONCE. Her words. Im afraid she;ll tell me the truth.

the truth is scary, but the unknown is scarier. I'd much rather face the truth head on. But that's me.

Im still figuring out how the person Im with just seven months later is not the person capable of such visciousness not only to me but our kids, OMW and the baby she was supposed to be watching while this went on. And, this is only during the latter 2-3 years of her A. She was able to be this guy's babe while he went thru rounds of surrogacy with his wife. Didnt she have any self-respect? Loverboy made it very clear thru his actions with his wife that this relationship would only be clandestine. Never making her an honest person. Respect, that is the word. None for me, her children, her employer and child, and zero for herself.

Its that absolute hardening of compassion that is mystifying me.

I understand this too. I will never fully understand it til the day I die. I know intellectually that it is the "slippery slope", where once you start down it is hard to stop. Emotionally though... It's tough. ON another note, I am glad that I don't know personally. That I haven't "gone there". And that is a plus for me too.

OK. Just a seven month post dday lament. Ill be fine.


You will be. you are working hard and doing well.
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
[My wife complained about tons of stuff to OM. I got it all. from how I was (SORRY, FOLKS MAY WANT TO SKIP THIS PART,) Too much for her (if you catch my drift), to how I was a bad father, not like him. In the end, I am glad I knew. I am not plagued with questions. But that is me, and I understand that we are all different in our need to know. [/color]


CV--

"too much for her"?? Couldnt have made her OM too happy to hear this that you were 'over adequate'. Personally, I would have been OK learning I over delivered vs. OM being just OK in that department. (I played golf with OM years ago and there was showers at the club, Im not too worried about this issue needless to say.) Amusing thoughts, tho.

About the unknowns, yes, I have a whole bunch of them. I got most of them answered in the window when I able to ask them. Now, I just want to drill down more on some of those answers. Really not necessary as I think more about it. They'll surely only irk the you know what out of me.

You once said it to me, I won, she picked me. When i get crazed and want answers I always think of that. Then I go write the questions down in my notebook.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


CV--

"too much for her"?? Couldnt have made her OM too happy to hear this that you were 'over adequate'. Personally, I would have been OK learning I over delivered vs. OM being just OK in that department.

yeah. ain't that some junk. Apparently he was stellarly...um...lacking. lol... He was obsessed with it apparently.


(I played golf with OM years ago and there was showers at the club, Im not too worried about this issue needless to say.) Amusing thoughts, tho.

Lol. yeah.

About the unknowns, yes, I have a whole bunch of them. I got most of them answered in the window when I able to ask them. Now, I just want to drill down more on some of those answers. Really not necessary as I think more about it. They'll surely only irk the you know what out of me.

You once said it to me, I won, she picked me. When i get crazed and want answers I always think of that. Then I go write the questions down in my notebook.

You did win. I still maintain that. You won a better person than the one you thought you had. That's the thing I think we find it hard to see sometimes. A repentant spouse who is working (despite all the problems) is a million times better than the one we had before we even knew there was a problem.

This is me, my personal assessment of me: When I get crazed, it is because I am afraid. I get afraid of the what ifs. What if she goes back, what if I'm being duped, what if I missed something important... I have to stop and ask myself... is this a realistic fear? If so, how do I tackle it?


Just the way my brain works I guess.

CV


Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
We have plenty of friends, few know of the affair.


Mike,

Part of recovery is recognizing the affair is part of your history -- a painful part -- and sharing that experience with others will give you the support you need.

Here's a homework assignment.

Pick a few of those most-important same-sex friends and then have a frank discussion with your wife about needing them back in your life. Explain your feeling that you feel like you can't be friends with them unless they know what's gone on and why things have been the way they are. Discuss frankly with her your need to expose the affair to them so that you -- as a couple -- can have these friends back in your life.

POJA exposure. You're well past the active affair, so it's time to get your wife as an ally in your recovery. Support from friends is critical; without the support of several good friends, I would have been far more stupid in my recovery.

Invite those friends into your new reality. And it's important to realize that there will be some friends who won't want to be friends anymore once they know. That's life. You'll find out who your real friends are when they really know who you are and what you've been through.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/12/11 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
We have plenty of friends, few know of the affair.


Here's a homework assignment.

Pick a few of those most-important same-sex friends and then have a frank discussion with your wife about needing them back in your life. Explain your feeling that you feel like you can't be friends with them unless they know what's gone on and why things have been the way they are. Discuss frankly with her your need to expose the affair to them so that you -- as a couple -- can have these friends back in your life.



There is a BH that had a WW end their affair.

They moved far away from OM and started recovery.

This BH met and became close friends with another man.

Their combined families became close and socialized.

This BH told the friend/another man that his WW had an affair.

This BH was not a judge of character for he picked a real character to have for a friend.

This friend, who the BH thought was just another man turn out to just a guy that once he heard WW drops denim jeans fast showed that he was a predator looking for another easy women.

Morale of this tale is that an/other man and an/other woman became just your every day OM and WW again. And now another OMW/BW thrown into the mix as well.



Loose lips sink ships

and

Loose lips on a BH telling other men that his WW has loose lips in her pants while sink those denim jeans.



I've seen the look some men give when they here a married woman has fooled around in the past. It's the hmmm maybe I'll be the next one to get lucky.

Also seen a WW get hit on by several of the men in their married social group once the word gets out and why other women shun her to keep her away from their man.

Also we hear how once a WW does a co worker the other co workers/predators working there start circling like the sharks they are.

One thing to expose to stop an affair. Another to tell friends afterwards once it's over. No need to tell. Too much risk.

You want to see friends. Call them. They say why were they dropped. Tell them you never stopped being their friend or liking them justyou had too much going on to hang out.

Unless the BH wears a Scarlet C and his WW wears a Scarlet A they are not going to be able to tell there was an affair in their marriage.
I'm with you Road.

I AOd to my wife early on when I was still AOing exactly that. Her girl friends will shun her. And I reminded her that their husbands will love her. They'll be popping bye just to say hello and I'll have to beat them with stick.

It's my oldest friends who don't live near and who I rarely see and speak to that I stopped contact. Just another ramification of the sitch.

If you don't know no need to tell you now.

I have loads of mental baggage to carry and this minor in the grand scheme of my wellbeing.
Not doing great.

She is remorseful, repentant, and doing all a person in her shoes can do to move us away from this ordeal.

As I have said in the past many times, its not her, its me.

Im unable to meet UA time as the hatred I have for her boils over and I cannot stand to be near her. Yes, seven months plus after dday, my anger is still simmering.

I dont want to be with somebody simply because I feel sorry for her. I know its not a great idea, but Im here because of my kids. I dont trust her alone with them and I really fear that out of desperation OM could end up part of their lives if I left. My wife would have difficulty supporting herself alone. And he made it clear to her just after dday if she left me, he would leave his wife in a heartbeat. Quite a guy this OM.

The reality is I spend almost all day thinking about what she was capable to doing and more devestating to me is the length of time she did. What I got from her amounts to 'Im very very sorry', 'I f---d up', 'one year turned into 2, then 5, then 8'.

At no point during the affair did she think it was wrong, from what I can tell from the limited info I have. Loverboy said to her that I wouldnt leave if they got caught and that was probalby last time they discussed it.

For over half of our marriage she thought it was acceptible to be sleeping with another guy. She saw no problem in inviting him and his family into our home where this predator became my buddy and our kids thought of him as an uncle. Our kids fell in love with his baby only for be forbidden contact with her for seven months now. As I said, how do I find a modicum of respect for such a vicious person? For seven months, this is the main question I asked myself.

Because we have a couple of kids together, is that the reason to stay married? Because if I leave her, our worlds and more importantly, our kids' worlds collapse, is that a reason to stick around?

Her crime was immense. And life is short. Spending the remainder of it with a pall over this house and an anger in my heart is something I loathe.

So, my decision today is to suck it up and be here and do my best to cohabit with my wife. Give life time to move on and see what can change in my head.

Loving her again is going to be a problem.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/14/11 05:01 PM
Is the reason to keep OM away from your kids enough?

Yes.

Now to say things I'm sure you have heard. You are on the roller coaster ride that is recovery.

You have gone 7 months past dday. The 6 month point is where that anger phase starts. This phase lasts 6 months.

Recovery per Doc H takes 2 years. I think he uses that time because at that point recovery continues.

Experience here from posters has shown that feeling normal post affair takes 2 to 5 years.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/14/11 05:06 PM
Mike:

I'm so sorry that your are in such pain. But you hit something on the head with this thought

Quote:
So, my decision today is to suck it up and be here and do my best to cohabit with my wife. Give life time to move on and see what CAN CHANGE IN MY HEAD.


They cheated. They had all the fun. We got the [censored] sandwich, the insomnia, the gut punch, the insecurity, the anger, the tears, the sheer horror.

And then we are asked to retrain our brains to love the person who betrayed us in the most horrible way imaginable.

But here's something to think about: If you can retrain your thoughts, as I have (not perfectly, but getting there), aren't you, ultimately, stronger for it? How many people have faced this kind of betrayal and found the willpower and strength to overcome it?

And, ultimately, keeping your nuclear family whole -- as long as your marriage is fully recovered -- is the best thing for your daughters, you, your wife, your finances, your comfort.

But, again, no one will blame you if you can't turn that corner. Some betrayal is just too much.

Sending you peace,
SweetPea
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/14/11 05:07 PM
How old are your kids?

Has WW ever posted here?
Girl is 12, boy 10.

She certainly knows of this site and how its kept me off the ledge of many occasions, but has no interest in posting.

She's not a great writer nor has ability to express herself in words to any great degree. The inability to express herself, in fact, is a current exasperation I am dealig with. She was in love with a man for a period time and then it evolved into something different as per description early on. I am seeking to learn more about what is in her that allowed her to stick around with this man when the "love" died. Its an excercise in armchair psychology for me. I NEED TO KNOW.

Im feeling terribly insignificant still. For a lot of years I was equal to our refridgerator or couch, I was there but very little thought went into me or my feelings. I am demanding to know why that videos of her doing him were brought to light, I am now significant in her life. If these videos OMW stumbled upon never were seen but by OM, my wife would be his GF still. Ive asked her to deny that too.

I glad to hear, however, my emotions are in line with accepted time frames.
Originally Posted By: sweetpea2011
Mike:

I'm so sorry that your are in such pain. But you hit something on the head with this thought

Quote:
So, my decision today is to suck it up and be here and do my best to cohabit with my wife. Give life time to move on and see what CAN CHANGE IN MY HEAD.


They cheated. They had all the fun. We got the [censored] sandwich, the insomnia, the gut punch, the insecurity, the anger, the tears, the sheer horror.

And then we are asked to retrain our brains to love the person who betrayed us in the most horrible way imaginable.

But here's something to think about: If you can retrain your thoughts, as I have (not perfectly, but getting there), aren't you, ultimately, stronger for it? How many people have faced this kind of betrayal and found the willpower and strength to overcome it?

And, ultimately, keeping your nuclear family whole -- as long as your marriage is fully recovered -- is the best thing for your daughters, you, your wife, your finances, your comfort.

But, again, no one will blame you if you can't turn that corner. Some betrayal is just too much.

Sending you peace,
SweetPea


SP-Thanks. My greatest success has been keeping my kids out of the know of my mental strife. My girl knows what her mother did moreso than the boy and Im scared to death she'll have even the most remote ability to callously treat her relationships like her mother did. I need to make sure advice my wife gives (even if its well intentioned) is in line with what normal people would suggest to their kids. My wife lost this right.

Ive gotten great advice here very recently about retraining my brain when anger arises. Working on it.

Look, at risk of being naive here (well my wife did have a LTA basically under my nose and I never caught on, so the naive ship sailed long ago), but my wife describes the early days of the romance as she was in love. Then, like Dr. H. writes, the affair "love" seemed to die lets says 3 years later.. But, here my rub, my wife continued to be his bimbo for many years after. As his employee, she collected a weekly paycheck and he provided some nice gifts and dinners and whatnot. So, reconciling this notion that was it best for her to betray me and the kids for all that time for a few hundred a week and some dinners is quite a difficult thing.

I sometimes cant even look at her.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/14/11 05:38 PM
Quote:
I NEED TO KNOW.


But you do know. She was being selfish and stupid and dumb. She let another man meet her needs. Doesn't mean it was "real" love, just needs-meeting.

Are you two working the program? You admit earlier that you can't meet UA time requirement. I've seen Pep and Marital tell people mired in pain that 20+ hours are needed if you're still reeling.

So, if you're willing to stick around and find out what changes in your mind, why aren't you willing to WORK at changing your mind? Those images/thoughts/issues won't go away by osmosis.

My IC had me work for weeks and weeks about putting "those bad books" back on the shelf and taking another one out, ones that supported my marriage and my self-confidence. It took A LOT of effort, and I still have trouble on occasion, but not as badly as the first six to seven months.

THink about therapy. It's not against MB philosophy to get therapy if it jibes with the principles and is constructive in healing yourself and your marriage.

SP
(Sorry I missed that you had boy and girl. Thought you just had girls.)
Originally Posted By: sweetpea2011
Are you two working the program? You admit earlier that you can't meet UA time requirement. I've seen Pep and Marital tell people mired in pain that 20+ hours are needed if you're still reeling.


I dont like her very much. I tried to love her for seven months now. I said it to her thousands of times. Shes said it to me. We stepped up SF by 1000% from prior dday levels, my EN for sure. We go for walks, dinners, movies, and all the other stuff to make our UA special.

Lately, however, I think a lot about some question: Why should I? Is she worth it? No one can answer these but me.

Right now. I dont like my answers. Im stuck on how unfeeling, callous, and hardened she was to me.

Its almost like I want to leave her because of the tremendously difficult life that would face her.

But, it would be hurting my kids too and doing that would go against all I believe in. She, however, spent 8 years having little problem with the potential hurt she eventually delivered.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/14/11 06:03 PM
[quote]Its almost like I want to leave her because of the tremendously difficult life that would face her. [quote]

I totally get this desire to WANT TO PUNISH!!! I'm the most loyal person on earth ... UNTIL I'M CROSSED. Then watch out! I will HUNT YOU DOWN and UNLEASH HELL.

I get that feeling. For some reason, I've only had glimmers of Vengeance SweetPea in all of this. Mainly I've been horribly crushed, sad, depressed. (I like Vengeance SweetPea much better than Sad SweetPea, but I can't channel her much for some reason in all this.)

You, my friend, have PLENTY of reason to chuck it all. Eight years is A LONG FREAKIN' time.

So, back to MB techniques, though. OK, so your SF need is being met. That's GOOD. Isn't that a HUGE GOOD for you, given how bad it was before? Killing this affair has led to a direct resurgence of your SF life with your wife. THAT IS GOOD!!! That, frankly, is amazing, given that your heart isn't fully into recovery. Don't you think she can feel it? Is there no smidgen of admiration you can give to your FWW for her effort on this part?

So the next question is: What ELSE can she do to meet MORE of your top needs so that you can actually look at her -- on occasion -- as someone who loves you and who wants to make you the happiest man in the world?

SP
I like the way you frame your response. I should be 'happy' that my wife is now willing to give it up to me? Again, it only took a moron who video'd her bj'ing him to leave those videos on his cellphone so his wife could find them for me to have the sexual relationship Ive wanted for what?, EIGHT YEARS????

I didnt kill the affair. Its seems to have died a long time ago but laziness and other words I cant think of allowed her to continue to be his girlfriend. Only by chance did it end. And, factor this, she claims and I really believe her she has zero withdrawal from him. Freaking hates him. And she says and I have examples that lead me to believe this, shes really hated him for a number of years. BUTTTTTT, she stayed in the relationship.

I dont know what she do frankly to make things better. Shes a damaged soul as am I. We'll go thru life with this always part of us. Ill go thru life thinking when the next guy to dangle a nice outfit or jewelry or steak dinner comes by, she'll have it in her to make him happy too.

Is 25+ hrs of alone time going to change that?
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Recovery per Doc H takes 2 years. I think he uses that time because at that point recovery continues.


Dr. Harley is extremely clear on why he uses the two year number, and recites the reasoning in almost every radio show: if after two years your marriage is not BETTER THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN, you're probably not going to recover and should separate, planning to divorce.

He arrived at the two year number based on observation and counseling of thousands of couples over the past three decades; those who didn't feel their marriage was better than it had ever been after two years of trying to improve it following Dr. Harley's recommendations typically ended up divorced no matter what.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
...she claims and I really believe her she has zero withdrawal from him. Freaking hates him.


That's actually quite common when the affair dies a natural death before D-Day; the D-Day confrontation just allows the unfaithful spouse to drive a stake into the heart of the affair with someone they really were starting to dislike anyway. But by that time, the betrayed spouse usually has so much resentment to overcome that they may never do so.
"I know you love me but you don't like me. I will spend forever trying to change that second part." -My wife last nite.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/17/11 02:07 AM
(Man, I picked a lousy week to go incommunicado!)

MSS, if this posting seems...familiar....I apologize. I just think that you should hear it again.

The lady you married all those years ago is gone, killed by the actions of WW and POSOM.

The lady you were married to and who cheated on you during that marriage is gone as well, killed by a combination of affair-tedium and your joint actions with OMW.

The lady who will sleep by your side tonight is a new person, less naïve than the former, and most certainly much wiser than the latter. You should avail yourself of the opportunity to make a lifetime with HER, not those other two ladies of your past.

YES, there is much to be said for the benefits to your children of having their two parents together. I'm not going to stress that to you now, because I believe that sale is made. Instead, I want you to be a bit selfish, Mike. Bury those two carcasses, once and for all. They should no longer have any claim to your heart and mind. Concentrate on the living woman. Does she have those qualities that you want in a life-mate? We're hearing from you that she does. Listen to yourself, and maximize your own happiness, Mike.

The last dirty little BS secret is that the pain of betrayal doesn't necessarily leave as you distance yourself from the former betrayer. You will hurt in her future absence as you hurt in her current presence. But, she remains your best medicine, Mike, just as you remain hers.

And, E - A - O - T - P
Thanks. I finally gave in to my frustration at not being able to discuss the affair at any level. I had so much more I needed to ask. I told it wasn't fair that I had to live forever with this black hole in my life and just swallow my curiosity.

I asked a few things. Never raised my voice. I kept my conversation as mellow as could be. Got some clarifications on some things. She set me straight on a few other things.

I actually felt a lot better. I felt better about her and the place she's at mentally today.

That's when she asked me to stay and keep loving her while we continue to work out the rest of the stuff.

And NG-the story you tell is indeed exactly as you said it 6-7 months ago. It means so much more tonight than it it then.

Time is the great equalizer is this game.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: sweetpea2011
Are you two working the program? You admit earlier that you can't meet UA time requirement. I've seen Pep and Marital tell people mired in pain that 20+ hours are needed if you're still reeling.


I dont like her very much. I tried to love her for seven months now. I said it to her thousands of times. Shes said it to me. We stepped up SF by 1000% from prior dday levels, my EN for sure. We go for walks, dinners, movies, and all the other stuff to make our UA special.

Perfectly normal feeling, Mike. recovery from affairs is extremely difficult whether the affair was a ONS or 10 years. I suspect it is because what is required to fix it is so often what we perceive as "unfair". We in the west particularly have (even if we disagree with it in principle) a romantic view of affairs. We are inundated with it in the media, movies, TV, books, news. Movies like Titanic and The notebook slip in the idea that if you are following your heart it's ok to relax your boundaries. Whether we like it our not our worldview is skewed by what we put into our brains.

The truth is, the greatest offense committed during the affair (IMO) by the WS is to themselves. They relax their boundaries and proceed to utterly destroy who they were. Once noble and loving people reduced to a husk of their former selves. No morals, no logical thinking, just rutting like wild animals. The saddest part of it is that I think most WS' (and I would include a number of FWS' ) never really experience the devastation they have caused to the same degree as we have. And that's a shame. Not because they need to suffer, but because they can never truly understand what was destroyed. I mean, how can they? they never knew what they had when they were tossing it out, right?

German philosophers and theologians have this word...Weltanschauung. It's a particularly difficult word to translate into another language. Simply translated, it means "worldview". Thing is, it is so much more than that. I will use worldview in it's place though (easier to spell!). Worldview deals with our fundamental understanding of things. Our fundamental existential (not in existentialist terms though) being of what we believe about the world. It affects how we see, think, feel and speak.

This worldview is shaken during an affair. It is rocked to its core and we are challenged on every level (as a BS) of why we are here, how do we know what we know, and how do we live in light of the knowledge we have. Affairs are so darned effective at shaking our worldview to its core that what we have to do so many times is rebuild our worldview. I see MB as working to this end. In some ways, at a peripheral glance, it may seem shallow and just a changing of actions, but what are we talking about really? MB is about changing fundamental Weltanschauung. That is, switching where we focus our thoughts, energy and beliefs. Often times, what we had didn't work.

We placed too much trust, too much hope in another person. They were the center of our world. And they fell. When they fell, we fell apart.

MB isn't just about changing our actions, it is about changing our fundamental way of thinking. One of the reasons it clicked well with me is that many of the basic ideas and concepts were already part of my Weltanschauung.

Why am I typing this? Because just doing things isn't gonna get you there. you have to embrace a fundamental change within yourself as well. a reevaluation of life. We all did it. we are all doing it. just working to make it special isn't going to make it special if you are just riding it out and waiting for the pixie dust to land on you.

The hardest part of recovery for me is realizing that I'm not just broken, but I have to fix some things about me too. My wife as I knew her is here and she's gone. The girl I married died years before I found out. And yet here she is. Alive and kicking. Same Grace, yet different. No longer the woman I thought she was, yet in many ways better... Stronger, wiser, happier, more satisfied and more satisfying.

It took me nearly three years to mourn the death of my wife and learn to begin to enjoy my life with my new one. One who really in some ways is the same as my dead wife, and yet is a new person.

It's not philosophical mumbo-jumbo, it's the simple truth. Old Grace is dead to me and yet she's here sharing memories and life (25 years worth). Like stepping into a marriage that already has it's memories and past, but is almost categorically new.

It's more than recognizing this that leads to recovery however... It's embracing it as well. We all want new spouses after an affair. I did. I wanted out at times. sometimes the feelings and thoughts lasted for weeks. Then something clicked in my head... I did have a new spouse. Everything I wanted was there in her. I wanted a wife who was cognizant of my emotional needs... bang! There she was! I wanted a spouse who wasn't just aware of needs but was willing to meet them. Bang! There she was. I wanted a spouse who loved me and cared for me and engaged me in deep theological, philosophical, personal conversation. Not like the woman I married... again... There she was. The past hurts... It hurts a lot. But I have everything that I want now. She works to meet my needs and to meet them the way I like it. Exactly what I wanted in a new wife.

I had to embrace the reality of this. Grace was what I always hoped she would be, and what I currently wanted. Why look anywhere else? I had to adjust my worldview on one important point. The only person who makes the Celtic Voyager happy is the Celtic Voyager. I have to let her in to fill my needs or I am not happy. I cannot give her 90% and hold back 10. It's the same all or nothing I expect from her. My happiness is enhanced by her or diminished. This is true. but ultimately, my real lasting happiness is found in how I view the world around me, not just in it's immediate context (which is what we are consumed with after Dday), but in the larger context to.

Simply put, I have to give myself to her completely as I am requiring her to do for me. I can't make her the idol I once did because idols decay and fall. My happiness is found in something greater than her, or even me. It is where my worldview, my Weltanschauung, comes together and finds it's strength.

It's what says "CV, quit looking at yourself and open your eyes to what's going on in front of you!! Are you to blind to see the miracle of the change that just took place in your wife?!?!"



Lately, however, I think a lot about some question: Why should I? Is she worth it? No one can answer these but me.

Right now. I dont like my answers. Im stuck on how unfeeling, callous, and hardened she was to me.

Its almost like I want to leave her because of the tremendously difficult life that would face her.

But, it would be hurting my kids too and doing that would go against all I believe in. She, however, spent 8 years having little problem with the potential hurt she eventually delivered.


In simple terms... Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees. Take your eyes off yourself for a moment and see the wondrous miracle your wife is becoming. Stop looking back and start looking forward. You will only stumble and fall if you keep looking back while moving forward with recovery.


Good post. And I haven't felt like I do since I had the convo with her about the affair a couple nights ago. It just closed so many unknowns in me while I also firmly believe she was helped by, not so much confessing, but expanding on details as i asked. I ended the talk by telling her I was trying, but...she said no buts right now, she begged me to keep trying. Then the part loving not liking her. It was the first real moment in a while.

I felt a major worldview shift just in the last couple of days since.

I actually was freaked a bit because that bit about loving her but not liking her I wrote here just a couple days before she said almost the exact words to me She doesn't come on to the boards.

Anyway, CV, your post was really poignant in light of the last few days.

Thanks for writing it here.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Good post. And I haven't felt like I do since I had the convo with her about the affair a couple nights ago. It just closed so many unknowns in me while I also firmly believe she was helped by, not so much confessing, but expanding on details as i asked. I ended the talk by telling her I was trying, but...she said no buts right now, she begged me to keep trying. Then the part loving not liking her. It was the first real moment in a while.

I felt a major worldview shift just in the last couple of days since.

I actually was freaked a bit because that bit about loving her but not liking her I wrote here just a couple days before she said almost the exact words to me She doesn't come on to the boards.

Anyway, CV, your post was really poignant in light of the last few days.

Thanks for writing it here.


Mike, glad you are more encouraged, and glad that I could help in some small way. Remember the rollercoaster. Don't forget that the rollercoaster takes us down a bunch of different hills too. They don't all feel the same.
At last night's basketball practice a woman lost her diamond right out of the setting of the ring. Twenty people were on their hands and knees searching for it. She then thought to go to her car to look there. I gave her a mini flashlite I carry on my keychain to search in the dark.

A few minutes later this woman who I do not know at all came back with the diamond in her hand. She gave me the biggest hug and kiss on the cheek a stranger could give (her husbad was right next to her, btw) for lending her the flashlite.

I told my wife I cheated on her and told her the story. Now, maybe I told her tongue in cheek or maybe not, but I was curious to what my wife would think. I asked her if she'd want to know if I did something actually cheating-like. She said no.

I got a little annoyed at her answer. I said after all this time of misery Im living from her secrets she really would be happier not knowing about an affair I was in. Is she kidding me?

Sometimes I learn things about her I cannot believe.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/22/11 04:07 PM
Hey, Mike:

I'm not surprised she wouldn't want to know. She probably can't see past how her affair hurt you so badly. Who would willingly seek that kind of pain?

You were testing her with that story. Given how your wife has responded in recovery, do you think it's advisable to test her, rather than simply ask her in a non-lovebusting way?

I'm betting you wanted her to say: "OF course, I'd want to know. I'd be jealous and hurt and outraged." To show that she really does care about your marriage and your needs, etc?

You really don't think she would want to know if you were going outside your marriage for your needs? Or does she feel she doesn't deserve to know, given what she's done?

Hmmmmm....
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/22/11 06:34 PM
sigh

Mike I can think of forty different ways to have related the story to your wife, including:
  • Man, am I glad went to basketball practice tonight.....
  • You know, I saved another couple an awful experience.....
  • Hey, how can a $2 flashlight save someone thousands.....
  • Something happened tonight, and it made me think about how long it's been since we had your diamond setting checked.....
Instead, you chose:
  • A suitably grateful lady kissed me tonight, and I'm going to make a big deal about it because YOU HAD AN AFFAIR!
In light of the upcoming Holiday, and the concurrent hopes of peace and goodwill, I'll refrain from any further castigation until next week.

PS: You owe her an apology.
Sometimes I prefer the path of more resistance.

Still can't neuter stuff in every case.

Irony of a lady pecking me on the cheek and subsequent mild guilt vs an 8-year affair with little or any guilt wasn't lost on me and something my mature recovering fww surely can handle.

Were not talking about a delicate flower here who needs coddling and words minced. We are passed that as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Sometimes I prefer the path of more resistance.

Still can't neuter stuff in every case.

Irony of a lady pecking me on the cheek and subsequent mild guilt vs an 8-year affair with little or any guilt wasn't lost on me and something my mature recovering fww surely can handle.

Were not talking about a delicate flower here who needs coddling and words minced. We are passed that as far as I'm concerned.


Mike,

I can appreciate your feelings. Struggled with em for a good long time. I do think however there is a difference between doing the hard work and taking the path of most resistance. One is accomplishing something positive and the other is simply making things difficult for another reason altogether.

A delicate flower? Maybe, maybe not... My wife still cries if I give a severe look. Despite all she's done, she is still a person with feelings, that we as husbands need to consider.

We may or may never know the depth of guilt felt by our WS, but it doesn't reduce them to the status of verbal punching bad where we can take a quick jab when we walk by. And mature doesn't equal insensitive.

I think what NG was asking you was this: Is there a better way to show love to your wife than you did with that?

CV
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/23/11 04:05 AM
So in 7+ months working on this site, what you have chosen to retain as your modus operendi is that whatever actions you feel will give you a fleeting feeling of superiority over your spouse, or provides amusement (Irony?), you are probably justified in taking, regardless of the damaging effect on her, because, after all, she had an affair, and the new humiliation is just something she "surely can handle".

Does that approximate a faithful restatement of your position?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/23/11 05:18 AM
It was poor taste, and handled spitefully.


I almost get it, Mike. ALMOST.

Believe it or not, I have survived thus far with a sense of humor intact. In fact, I posted a story a few months back about being kissed "by another woman" at work. The way I relayed it to my wife is verbatim with my post.

I didn't use that situation as a segue to rub my wife's nose in her infidelity. I just shared it in a way which I am fortunately able to still find some humor in, as was she.

After all, its doubtful I'd ever take up with a woman old enough to be my mother, let alone my GRANDMOTHER.

Being able to find laughter in life is a precious thing, Mike. So why tread on it so vindictively?
I tried to find humor and that turned out to be at her expense. I apologized to her the following day. And I apologized to her last night after reading the posts.

Yeah I got loads of resentment. Its how im handling the waves of anger from this resentment that stinks.

And you're right I do little nitpicking things to needle her once in a while to boost me a bit.

She has this hardness that I really never saw but now realize its always been there. Its a toughness in some things emotionally and interpersonally combined with complete fear of other things. Its gotten much more defined in these months. Im able to look back at the last 15 yrs and see it clear.

Its this hardness that I try to crack with these 'low blows'.

I apologized and will try to control myself.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/23/11 03:40 PM
Welcome back, kiddo!

Mike, we have all wandered "off the reservation" (apologies to any offended Native Americans!) during our trek to recovery. No one can know how long these episodes of suppressed/reflected rage will torment the two of you, but the more often, and completely, you can quash the outward demonstration WITH SELF-AWARENESS AND CONTROL, the better off YOU will be.

Merry Christmas, my friend!
Posted By: mrlough Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/24/11 06:34 AM
Mike,

Glad you apologized to her, no need for me to pile on. I just wanted to pass on a few words a very good friend of FWW and I told me, and its helped me a little when I feel angry.

I'm only a couple months into my own recovery story, but trust me I understand wanting to "punish" the the woman who ripped your heart out, and now seems to "owe" it to us to take whatever emotional jabs we feel like giving until our pain dissipates. It's ok to feel angry, but when the pain eventually dies down you want a WHOLE wife, not a shell of the woman you want to spend your life with. After all, that is why we are in recovery right? We want to create a healthy, loving marriage we can spend the rest of our lives in. I hate what my wife DID, but I love my WIFE, and if we are able to make it through recovery I want to be with ALL of my wife.

I'm sure you've gotten plenty of advice from other people far more qualified from me, but when I feel like using my wife as an emotional punching bag, I often think about having my "whole" wife in the long run, and its helped me immensely. I'm learning to share my anger with her in a respectful way (I was a huge offender of AO's and DJ's pre-A) and in turn she is learning to ask what she can do to help me with the pain. Anyway thanks for listening.

Have a Merry Christmas!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/24/11 04:19 PM
She has this hardness that I really never saw but now realize its always been there...Its this hardness that I try to crack with these 'low blows'.

***Engineering-speak Warning!***

Most metals are not weakened, but strengthened, by being hammered - hence "wrought" iron, and the annealing of steel.

Much better to melt it, or even more effective, locating a reagent that will act as a catylist for secondary chemical bonding.

Remember too the allegory about the wind, the sun, and the man in the overcoat.....
Santa showed up at last nights christmas party and he was his usual jovial self. He took pictures with everyone. All the couples took pics with him. So when he saw my wife he said with a firm tongue in cheek, "hey young lady, do you want to take a picture with Santa with your boyfriend or is your husband here?".

Ha ha. Even the most innocent of attempts at humor by someone else are lost forever. Ruined my night. And Santa doesn't know about the a.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/25/11 04:52 PM
Ruined my night.

That sux, Mike. "Infidelity-chic" is (sadly) an acceptable form of humor/conviviality. You probably recall some examples - "A toast to our wives and girlfriends! May they never meet!" - which had no sting to them before your crisis. You might even have participated in some form, yourself.

Okay, last night (at least this part) hurt a bit. What is vitally important to get back in your mind? Your spouse did not initiate the exchange, and possibly feels worse about it than you do. Quietly today, (Quiet? On Christmas morning?) take her aside, tell her that you were disturbed by Santa's comment, BUT you wanted her to know that if she were equally bothered, not to let it carry forward into today. And YOU forestall the same hangover, okay? This is the HERO mode that we step into when necessary.

Merry Christmas, Mike! I hope Santa delivered the Dramamine and key-chain charm I asked him to bring you!
She knew it last night that line of humor is no longer funny like it once was.

I didn't blame her for it. Today the anxiety attack is for me to deal with alone.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/25/11 11:54 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She knew it last night that line of humor is no longer funny like it once was.

I didn't blame her for it. Today the anxiety attack is for me to deal with alone.



Yes but this statement shows that you ignored neverguessed's excellent advice.

Not blaming WW for it?

How could you? She did not bring the commment about.

Your inaction/lack of response to WW was a missed opportunity to help WW heal. That is a big need to be filled.

I know what you're going to be doing December 31. Throwing a party. Another pity party.

How do I know?

That's all you show you are doing through your posts. Time to man up. You're crying about a joke you heard the next morning form the night before. Wive's are attracted to men. Stop wussing around.
Of course I know I could control how these epiodes can pan out. I could say to my wife 'that was an unfortunate use of words', and make nothing of it. Or, I can envision the all previous parties when an innuendo like what Santa said to my wife was fact, true. when I'd stand smiling and say ha ha ha she doesn't have a boyfriend you silly jokester. But, in really, she did.

Pity party? I guess.

Coming up against scenarios I hadn't imagined that trigger anger, yes.

I said I didn't blame her meant I didn't take her into another room and destroy her night. I asked later on if she heard the Santa comment. She said yes and that she's sorry. I said don't apologize, this wont be last unfortunate situation were in and that was that.

As usual I kept my emotion bottled.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/26/11 02:23 PM
Mike:

I know the feeling. Someone gave my fwh the choice of two beers at a game recently. one was called Two Girls Lager. My friend jokingly said: Ha this one's for FWH, not knowing about the affair. FWH actually made a crack about it, too.

And I was super ticked and hurt. But like you, I waited to talk to him about it later. Didn't want to ruin our evening. like your FWW, he agreed, it was awful and his comment was stupid.

So, good job on keeping your emotions in check until you could discuss it later. And even though you felt anger over the incident, you're making progress. You aren't "killing" your wife's night AND you are telling her when triggers hit you and not keeping them bottled in. That seems like progress to me, despite you feeling cruddy about it.

Cheers,
SP

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/26/11 04:33 PM
Recovery is a process, Mike, and there are stages we all go through. Some of us run through a certain stage with great speed, only to be hung on for what seems like forever on a different stage. (This would be analagous to Kubler-Ross's stages of reconciling with death, or the iPhone, v1, 2, 3....)

Anyway, the OLD MSS, when getting so triggered, would have had a nuclear meltdown, torturing his wife with his own pain, and immediately posting here "It's over; I'm bailing!". All of us here are immensely grateful that that MSS is no longer with us.

The current MSS has mastered self-control, and is slowly building the unassailable wall that cannot be seen to be breached by triggers. "I'll handle it myself," "Don't apologize," are among his watchwords. This is a huge improvement, as mentioned, over the earlier version, for all who interact with him, but it's not very comfortable for him.

The ultimate MSS will note comments like Santa's, and will not be triggered. He will be confident in his wife's commitment to him, and will be able to mention it to her, and let her apologize yet again, for what she's done, without being resentful that there is a reason for the apology.

It took me a looooong time to escape NG(v2) and reach NG(v3) so I have no advice to offer on accelerating that transition. The only guide I can offer is NEVER to let V2 slip back to v1. I think you have that knowledge already.

Enjoy ther rest of the Holiday Season, amigo!
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Recovery is a process, Mike, and there are stages we all go through. Some of us run through a certain stage with great speed, only to be hung on for what seems like forever on a different stage. (This would be analagous to Kubler-Ross's stages of reconciling with death, or the iPhone, v1, 2, 3....)

Anyway, the OLD MSS, when getting so triggered, would have had a nuclear meltdown, torturing his wife with his own pain, and immediately posting here "It's over; I'm bailing!". All of us here are immensely grateful that that MSS is no longer with us.

The current MSS has mastered self-control, and is slowly building the unassailable wall that cannot be seen to be breached by triggers. "I'll handle it myself," "Don't apologize," are among his watchwords. This is a huge improvement, as mentioned, over the earlier version, for all who interact with him, but it's not very comfortable for him.

The ultimate MSS will note comments like Santa's, and will not be triggered. He will be confident in his wife's commitment to him, and will be able to mention it to her, and let her apologize yet again, for what she's done, without being resentful that there is a reason for the apology.

It took me a looooong time to escape NG(v2) and reach NG(v3) so I have no advice to offer on accelerating that transition. The only guide I can offer is NEVER to let V2 slip back to v1. I think you have that knowledge already.

Enjoy ther rest of the Holiday Season, amigo!



This is soooo true! It is hard dealing with the feelings of having been "played". Remember, time is on your side with this one.

CV
NG-- On point as usual. Using the timeframe others have mentioned, my upgrade to v3 from an early v2 where I am today may take everybit of the proscibed 2 years.

The Santa trigger, as we'll now call it, was unforeseen like a lot of other stressful events in my life.


-------------

Moving forward.

A motivational speaker I listened to recently on CD in my car insisted I make goals for myself and actually write them down.

So, being that time of year I wrote out 10 personal goals and 5 business type goals for next year. Kept a copy nearby but not in public viewing in my office for reference as we go along and one is sealed in an envelope in the Dec. 2012 file folder already setup in my file cabinet to be referred to then.

I spent 3 weeks putting together the goals for my marriage. And during that time I had some roller coaster moments. I promised to take it one days at a time. To let her continue to be someone I want to be with forever. To help her create and achieve goals she sets. To get passed the one year anniversary of dday and act like its just another day.

And some other stuff like that.

Mostly, I need to focus on me in 2012. I let a lot of that subside after initially spending a lot of time on me after dday. I need to dedicate a lot more time on my business than I did in last months. I think doing this will help with other mental stresses I have. Perhaps even help improve the bottom line here.

I need to work on my patience with my kids.

More gym time. The few times I acutally chose to walk or to run litely as a way to blow off steam when angered, it actually worked. Never did enough of it. More excercise.

Its cliche for sure but this New Year's is a big one for me. Never put much stock in it, but NYE needs to be at least a figurative turning point in much of my thought process. Maybe not "needs to be", but I should use the opportunity of New Year's Eve being a possible impetus for change that can lead to happiness and success in the next year for my family.

Have I seen to many recent Hollywood movies based on the magic of a New Year's Eve????
Adulterer to the stars Rachel Uchitel is pregnant. Luck was shining on her as its by her HUSBAND. How refreshing!?!
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Adulterer to the stars Rachel Uchitel is pregnant. Luck was shining on her as its by her HUSBAND. How refreshing!?!


is it me, or does her face mildly resemble that of a horse?

CV
2011- A.M.F.!!!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 12/31/11 10:57 PM
Very cool, MSS!

(But shouldn't it be spelled: A.M-F ?)

Yippee-i-o-ki-yay!
As we laid down last night I heard some whimpering and sniffling. Not the most emotional woman, I thought she was just battling the cold she's been dealing with.

Really out of nowhere she asked me again to forgive her and that shes having trouble believing how much she hurt me and that she was capable of it all. She cried that the kids will never forgive her despite not uttering a word to us about om and family since dday.

She's rarely opened up like that unsolicited from either a question or melt down from me.

I told her we are in a redo. A second chance. A new year.

It was nice to get emotion like that from her and I told her that too.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
As we laid down last night I heard some whimpering and sniffling. Not the most emotional woman, I thought she was just battling the cold she's been dealing with.

Really out of nowhere she asked me again to forgive her and that shes having trouble believing how much she hurt me and that she was capable of it all. She cried that the kids will never forgive her despite not uttering a word to us about om and family since dday.

She's rarely opened up like that unsolicited from either a question or melt down from me.

I told her we are in a redo. A second chance. A new year.

It was nice to get emotion like that from her and I told her that too.


Mike, This is (IMO) a good thing. One thing that FWW's dont really get to do early on is deal with their emotions sufficiently because they are so focused on helping us and we don't make it easy because of our roller-coaster.

Think about it, in a sense, we don't really allow them to fully settle and think about what they've done because we are pushing so hard after DDay. once we get ourselves under control with the digs and outbursts, they have more time to think and contemplate the fullness of what they've done.

Once I got myself under control, I began to get this from my W as well. she became very emotional and sad. When I asked why now after so long, she said she had to put herself aside in order to help me.
I believe it's a good thing, because it means you are entering into a new phase of recovery where she is opening up and coming to grips with the immensity of what she's done.

It's an opportunity for you both to enter into a new level of closeness as you are there for her as she mourns, not her AP, but what she's done to her marriage

cv
I'll take that. Anytime she opens up and says anything or emotes anything, I'll take it.

Its that bottling up that I find alarming. Her friend in the know of the thing said the same thing months back, that she sits back and takes things from her mother, brother, and I guess from me to some degree.

I told her last night that I like her opening up and I cant get enough of it. I think you are right on when maybe enough time as elapsed where she can release some of that emotion despite 7 months of begging her to tell me stuff.

And I DID feel a closeness.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I'll take that. Anytime she opens up and says anything or emotes anything, I'll take it.

Its that bottling up that I find alarming. Her friend in the know of the thing said the same thing months back, that she sits back and takes things from her mother, brother, and I guess from me to some degree.

I told her last night that I like her opening up and I cant get enough of it. I think you are right on when maybe enough time as elapsed where she can release some of that emotion despite 7 months of begging her to tell me stuff.

And I DID feel a closeness.


What she's done is given you a gift. A door. She has opened the crack ever so slightly... My W made a point to never show she was hurting during the A and when she was bottling it up, it drove me nuts. I equated it with Wh*^e behavior, when in fact it was something totally different.

Honestly, I almost missed what it was. It was a gift to me. An opportunity to step in and be there for her as she mourned the same loss of a relationship that I was mourning. I am glad you saw it. Use it as a way of strengthening yourselves, knitting the bond tighter.

CV
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/03/12 02:55 PM
Mike,

Just wanted to chime in here when I saw CVs response to your post, because over the weekend, W seemed to have a final 'purging' of alot of emotions/thoughts/feelings (Not uncommon for her around NYE as she reflects...I may post some of her comments later...), but one thing that stood out to me:

W thanked me for being so gentle with her and allowing her to mourn -- not for the OM -- but for what she had done to me, the kids, our marriage....and ultimately herself.

Be well.
Thats the way I felt too.

I also think her mother contributed to the emotional release. I have mentioned in the past, my brother in law is going thru marital issues of his own. And, like his sister's, his issues are mostly self inflicted. And, like so many others, his children are taking the brunt of his independent behavior. (His wife is no picnic, but he has declined any counseling over the years and for 6-7 years he has all but left his family.)

My MIL called over the weekend and as another fairly stoic person like her daughter, her crying on the phone was pretty much unexpected. She is really beside herself in grief over both her childrens failures. And, I believe rightly so, she takes much of the blame for them.

However, her enabling and poor parenting continues into her 70s. She flew her miserable son who is unemployed and treats everyone like junk to see her for a few days last month. He told his 2 kids only the day before that hes going. She said claimed that she had a credit from the airlines that was expiring on 12/31. Whatever. This guy deserves a long weekend by the pool while his kids suffer from his independent behavior like I need a hole in the head. Anyway, poor parenting decisions continue for my MIL and FIL.

Maybe theres a feeling of being trapped by genetics? That lousy decisions and low barriers she had were unavoidable? That whatever OM gave to her to make her stay were things that most women would see through? Dont know.

Her regret is immeasurable. The loss of time, the loss of trust, the damage to our kids, the loss of my happiness and the loss of any dignity are probably the reason for the outpouring the other night.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/03/12 04:26 PM
Do you see, MSS, in your own words the value of your being the hero, to break the cycle of demonstrated marital failures that are there as examples for your children? EAOTP, right?

BTW: I was hoping HFD would stop by to relate his FWW's expressed pain as a validation of the pool of cess that your FWW is going to wade through for a while.
Yes.

There has been some really great things submitted to my thread and others' in the last couple of weeks. No doubt.

I point to CV post the other night about the "gift" she gave me. That hit me hard. Hard to look at it as a gift but our marriage has never been better and thats real result of her gift.

He also mentioned doors closing and opening and THAT was a great way to look at this too.

I see a softer woman Im living with today that surely is better than what was.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/03/12 07:06 PM
Mike,

As I stated before, my W was VERY emotional come NYE as well, very reflective…and sad, depressed, remorseful (she says she's 'embarrased, disappointed in herself' alot). All the A talk, OM talk has died down quite a bit, if at all, so that’s why I say this seemed like a final purging – and probably related to her finally leaving her workplace (12/30/11) where she met the OM. Anyway, she vented the following:

• I chose some beneath you…someone ‘disposable’.
• You’d think someone (OM) with that much self-proclaimed experience would be a better partner – not even close, he’s a very immature and selfish man.
• I have no desire for contact with OM…when I heard his voice in Nov. (after I contacted him, then he called W in work), I was repulsed…he sounded flustered, weak and feeble.
• I do not love OM…I felt at one point in the fog that I had to because of what I did
• OM was a stupid, racist man…what kind of man is he really? He had his mommy call you…he didn’t even have the balls to call you and he bugged ME in work…what did he think after screwing around with a guy’s wife? He’s a coward…he could’ve called you back and apologized for almost destroying your family. He used me, but I used him too…but yes, I realize he is a bad man.
• OM hid the truth about giving me an STD from his family…even minimized/diminished my health issues when I informed him of the HPV…OM even questioned if it was you that gave it to me (insinuating you were screwing around)
• I went to OM for 1 need I wanted…and the OM wasn’t even good at that
• I knew it was a bad, temporary fix
• OM could’ve been anyone…I was so screwed up
• OM would say to me “I don’t stand a chance compared to your husband”…and he didn’t, there was no competition…but OM still engaged in that with me, which speaks volumes about his character – and mine…
• What did YOU ever do to the OM? Nothing. Yet he was willing to actively work to destroy your family.
• He didn’t want to be held accountable about the STD…wouldn’t tell his mommy…wanted no ‘blood on his hands’, no consequences for his actions.


• I didn’t show care for you or protect you or our marriage
• I know you’ve dealt with a lot of resentment because I maintained contact so long after the PA was over…it was hard to come to terms that I did an act like that, just an act, because doing that with no love, deep emotion makes me a tramp. I was trying to make the best of a bad situation where I did wrong…and there was no easy answer.
• I am insecure that you will now leave me at some point
• It was over, really (the PA) before you even realize, very early on. It was simply the ‘can’t we just be friends?’ that I allowed to linger for months
• This tragedy has provided me with so much clarity about who I need to be with and where I’m supposed to be
• I found through all of this what love is and is supposed to be and I love you, I adore you…THAT was the furthest thing from love, care, respect
• You saved me…I was not strong enough to end it on my own…This marriage was saved by you on March 9 when you exposed…I am so proud, so grateful for your actions, for your love and protection in saving me and this family
• You may have put cracks in our previous marriage, but I picked it up and smashed it to pieces with what I did. It’s my mission for the rest of my life to do what I need to in order to repair us.


I suspect that with W leaving the job, one of the final 'remnant' of that time, and moving forward in working MB principles.....this will probably be the last conversation we have mentioning the OM...he needs to be dead to us both now.

Thank you.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


I see a softer woman Im living with today that surely is better than what was.


This is an important thing to remember. The callousness from the A is being stripped away like bad paint and she is laid bare. Not the same woman she was.

cv
Another thread mentioned one of our favorite topics: movies or tv shows that feature adultery as a theme.

I thought about this a few weeks back but forgot to mention it. My all time favorite movie is with Michael Douglas and Tobey Maguire called Wonder Boys. Something about Douglas' character chimed with me and its overall tone is something I really made me think. I havent seen it in a while when I remember one of the central themes is Douglas' sexual relationship with his married boss and her subsequent pregnancy. (It was his multiple failed marriages, probably due to his affairs, that may have provided the approval in his mind.)

I found something interesting in a character who carried on an adulterous affair? Are you kidding me?

Am I to lament the loss of a movie that meant something to me at one time? Or, do I lament our society's approval of such entertainment? Afterall (spoiler alert) he does end up happy with his AP and their child.

We probably could list 100s of shows and movies who treat cheating on spouses with such frivality. And, prior to 5/8/11, I probably found them funny, inspiring, and worthwhile.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/09/12 08:58 PM
we rarely watch tv anymore, beacuse it is so common, H just flips the channel when ever something bad comes on. we rarely see a full show.

movies are screened carefully and if something come on, usually does, he changes it. so i have seen all of the marvel comic movies bc they were pretty safe, some thing i would never pick. but they were not bad.

History channel is safe.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/10/12 03:32 AM
History channel is safe.

...unless it's about any British royalty since, oh, about William the Conqueror!

(Apologies to SC and IG!)
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/10/12 04:45 PM
I stay on the weather channel a great deal (...seriously...)
Even though is less now, I was reminded when reading the letter a WW is writing to her BH with her plan for recovery about how sorry I felt (feel) for my wife.

Its almost inconceivable to think I could feel bad for HER.

But I did and still do. The shame and indignity she put on herself is upsetting still. What an odd emotional state!

Maybe its the same part of my nature that allowed her to have no boundaries with him. Maybe my even-keeled and permissive attitude towards their friendship that let her the freedom to persue this course. An easygoing-ness that removed her guilt response to sleeping with another man? They did talk about how Id never leave her if they got caught. I think men with different personality types would never have even the most fleeting thought of compassion for a adulterous wife. (Probably most men would not allow them to be friends and then work together in the first place. But I digress.)

Now, sure, if I had to deal with a fogged out person having troube extracting herself from her AP, Id feel zero compassion for such a person.

But like the writer of that letter, my wife was devestated by this thing and has committed to that plan and I would add, she declared and has met all of my emotional needs 110%.

Im just wondering if any other BS out there felt 'sorry' for their spouses enduring the guilt and shame despite having little to do with its cause?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/10/12 10:09 PM
NEVER could I imagine dealing with the guilt of being a remorseful WS.

BSs are damaged by the infidelities of their WSs, certainly. But, in the absence of a completely psychopathic personality, NO ONE envisions becoming a WS. The vision of "self" we all have does not have room for the level of deceit and betrayal that is the "coin of the realm" of the WS world. Much more than DAMAGED, they effectively have DESTROYED their own beings, and have no claim to forgiveness or consideration.

No, thank you.
I remember the radio show in which Dr. Harley was discussing how to handle the triggers that make us sad/angry. He said not to bring them up and that when we feel badly about the affair, the BS should go to their spouse and ask for something specific, like a hug or a kiss or to be held. If the FWS asks what's wrong, the BS is supposed to stick to something like "I'm feeling a little down." Supposed to leave it at that.

Found this on another's thread a few pages back from today's posts. Didnt want to interupt their current subject which was SF which Im usually all about. But, I find this advice important.

As much as my wife is in serious pain over what she caused I sometimes like to remind her of how much I still ache. I dont AO. I dont do any lambasting and sulking, curtness, and the silent treatment are not things I do either.

But I still have anger and sadness at times that just swallowing makes me even more anxious.

This "tip" tells your spouse 4 things: 1) you are in a bad way right now, 2)you'll get through it, 3) and that she is doing a good job at making us better and, 4) that you still love her despite it all.

Im going to call this my THOUGHT OF THE DAY (even though I didnt think of it first).

A hug or kiss doesnt necessarily need to be just a prelude to SF. Whodathunk it?
From the 'dont seek for what you may find someday' files:

Found some old emails (circa 2007) she sent to him on the computer. It took some searching but there they were. Most were actually work related. A couple of them were her sending him info as he was on vacation and she was wishing she was there with him.

Another was her telling him she was going to be late for work and when she got there they'd go to lunch, have a couple of drinks, and 'the rest is history'. Pretty much know what that means.

She referred to me as an 'a$$' in one email saying she hoped I would be nice to OM. Now, this one made me happy as I definitely did not like how close "friends" they were and I definitely did not treat him well. At least they recognized my annoyance at their deal.

In the grand scheme they were not as bad as I thought they would be when I came across them. The words "I Love you" were NOT on any of them. And I could not find any that came from him to her.

It did answer some of those lingering questions I will never ask her such as did she ever, kind of, offer herself up to him. I knew the answer would be yes, but to see it in writing was enlightening. The next was did she bad mouth me to him. Yes, to that.

Anyway, anger was triggered. I told her calmly what I saw. I told her I was sorry for not protecting her or what was mine when I knew stuff was not kosher with them. I, as discreet as possible, told her after learning one's wife is sleeping with another guy, what was read on those emails is mild. She said sorry. I accepted again.

Now, what really would be something to see is thousands of texts they sent each over the years. In the beginning she'd be buried in that cell phone like a 14 year old girl with the texts.

Anyway, the fury is over. I used the new kiss and tell her Im momentarily upset over something technique. We made love. And its over.

No crying, yelling or anything bad. Life is grand.
We did have some unrelated to the above story crying last night.

When I came up to bed, she was whimpering over her failures in life. She took blame for much of our financail malaise mentioning she spent all this time focused on things that were so not important to the detriment of her family.

Our girl knows about her mom's activities even though its not spoken about. When tired, our D will whine about things she wants but we really are in no position to buy her (Iphone, Macbook, etc.). She has at least once threw in my wife's face that she did have a babysitting job (OM's kid) on weekends that my wife 'ruined' and she was saving her money for these things.

Last night it happened again. I kind of gave my wife a lecture about parenting and how she is doing the exact things HER mother did to her as a kid (and actually still to this day). As Ive spoken about here my wife lacked for nothing growing despite having parents who could not very much afford those thing. I told her what my father told me and words she never heard from her parents: "I CANNOT AFFORD IT." Even when my parents started to make a real nice living, those words were engrained in me and I knew the value of money.

The girl has a perfectly fine cellphone which we just added internet service. Its not the Iphone that ALL the other girls have.

What is really happening here is my wife is desperate to buy off my kid's happiness so she doesnt throw the A in my wife's face. I told her I will not accept that. After dday the kids and I forgave my wife and that should be enough.

Sorry for being so gabby this morning, just feel like talking to my therapists today.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/13/12 07:29 PM
You need to put your kid in check, not DJ your wife with a lecture.

Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike.... come on, man. You know better than that.

Your wife was distraught and you gave her a parenting lecture, dude.
It was a lecture for both of that I delivered. We both are guilty of poor parenting decisions.

For instance, making High Honors is an expectation rewarded with a trip to the ice cream store, not an IPhone with a brutal monthly service fee. Then, what do we get her next year?

We are learning. And, my lecture was prefaced with 'you know what we both are not doing and what said we would not do the last time this came up....'
Posted By: Prisca Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/13/12 08:22 PM
You shouldn't be lecturing your wife. Period.
Openness and Honesty. Period.

"You are doing a lousy job at raising that girl." Thats a lecture. That was not said nor implied.

"We are doing a lousy job together and we need to improve." Thats constructive criticism and that was clearly made.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Openness and Honesty. Period.

"You are doing a lousy job at raising that girl." Thats a lecture. That was not said nor implied.

"We are doing a lousy job together and we need to improve." Thats constructive criticism and that was clearly made.


Here's an even better way to say it:

Honey, I believe we are doing a bad job of raising the kids. Can we sit and talk about how we can improve upon this together?

CV
She deleted those old emails.

We have been talking a lot.

She told me that nothing is going to derail us on our way to the ultimate destination. Not my anxiety or depression.

When she feels my anger simmer she gets even closer to me.

She told me she tried her best to ruin this marriage and can't change any of it now. She doesn't cry over it anymore. She believes what she did was the work of a mentally disabled woman. It took the shock of exposure to snap her out it. She has spent every day proving to me it's possible to regain her control of her faculties. And praying that I'd give myself to time to trust her.

She makes no excuses though. She told me that very few men would allow her to stay in their lives after all she's done. And I'm special. She wishes that I was I bad to her during her affair. That how I treated her drove her into the arms of another. But she says that was never the case.

She again said it was the work of a lazy, ungrateful, selfish, and ultimately self destructive person who managed to escape the realities of her life by fooling herself, her husband and kids to think she doing what was best for everyone. Over time giving her body to someone who had little interest in her well being and that of her family became routine. She is incredibly saddened over the feeling of being used but is quick to claim she used him too to get things in hindsight were meaningless. She feels like she was childlike in attitude and personality.

She went into some of the things we talked about regarding her upbringing but made it clear she knew what she was doing was wrong and at some point became hardened to it and continued. It has little or nothing with her parents, she said. But I know better.

Told I love her and thanked her for saying all the above. Told her we are one and I'm working hard at allowing all of her in my life.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/17/12 03:08 PM
Sooooo......a pretty good day, huh?
Good for you! Good for her!
Build on it, dude!
Yeah. Weekend was great. Took some advice from a vet on another thread on how to move on. Tips I certainly knew but only used sporatically.

We read stuff in bed to each other. We talked about taking a long road trip next month to surprise the kids. We went to out eat a few times with and without the kids. I WENT TO A FREAKING MALL OVER THE WEEKEND NOT ONCE, BUT 2X. (Her thing for sure.)

We talked about my emotional shifts and how she feels when my anger is silent but deadly. She would like me to kiss or hug her and tell her I love her and she'll do the same as per the advice I got last week.

We took a couple of showers together. (Thanks PB. Hard to be angry at anyone in that situation.)

I told her I have compartmentalized the last 8 years as its an excercise in diminishing what it was. She said its fairly simple, its was 2 idiots with too much time and little concern for who they loved the most who made inconceivable decisions.

Lets please try to forget it. I say OK.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/17/12 04:08 PM
I WENT TO A FREAKING MALL OVER THE WEEKEND NOT ONCE, BUT 2X.
That IS going above and beyond! rotflmao
Between you and me, I know OM and my wife used to go to the mall often as he is certainly a shopper. I know guys will go thru a lot to score a chick and he knew exactly how to meet one of her big needs, but really 5 minutes into the mall Im begging for mercy.

A couple of hours before football started was not too terrible actually. I needed some dress socks anyway.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/17/wife-kills-husbands-mistr_n_1211285.html?ref=crime&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing9%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D128385
She is so beautiful in the morning dressed for work. Simple jeans, hair done nice, makeup, and boots.

Triggered a trigger I battled before. (This is how she looks ALL THE TIME, so I thought about all the times she left to go to him looking like this.)

I kissed her and told her she's a beautiful woman. Told her to have a great day.

Took a pill. Went to work.

Recovery.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She is so beautiful in the morning dressed for work. Simple jeans, hair done nice, makeup, and boots.

Triggered a trigger I battled before. (This is how she looks ALL THE TIME, so I thought about all the times she left to go to him looking like this.)

I kissed her and told her she's a beautiful woman. Told her to have a great day.

Took a pill. Went to work.

Recovery.



Just remember... That beautiful woman is ALL YOURS.

CV
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/20/12 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She is so beautiful in the morning dressed for work. Simple jeans, hair done nice, makeup, and boots.

Triggered a trigger I battled before. (This is how she looks ALL THE TIME, so I thought about all the times she left to go to him looking like this.)

I kissed her and told her she's a beautiful woman. Told her to have a great day.

Took a pill. Went to work.

Recovery.



Just remember... That beautiful woman is ALL YOURS.

CV


And remember that her going to work the way she does is normal for her so this is not a trigger. Just a bonus for you having a naturally attractive wife.

There is a new poster here that has a WW that during the PA she was dressing up before leaving the house. Now she is back to normal in her appearance effort. For him seeing his WW leave looking extra good now would be a trigger.
Originally Posted By: TheRoad

And remember that her going to work the way she does is normal for her so this is not a trigger. Just a bonus for you having a naturally attractive wife.

There is a new poster here that has a WW that during the PA she was dressing up before leaving the house. Now she is back to normal in her appearance effort. For him seeing his WW leave looking extra good now would be a trigger.


My W dressed nice for attention at work, not just for OM, but for ANYONE to notice. She started dressing normal afterwards too. Of course me burning every stitch of clothes she wore around him helped with that! ;-)

CV
Thought of the day:

Only you know if it hurts.

OMW called me to say hello. We spoke briefly and I told my wife. My wife asked me not to have contact with omw any go forward. She says these conversations (however few there has been) upset me because they trigger questions I don't want to ask.

I told her we make decisions together and if it upsets her when I talk to omw, I'll ask omw not to contact me unless she suspects something. Which neither of us do. But i did learn some things I wanted to know.

Anyway It was nice to hear om is still struggling and things are going poorly with his business. A-hole.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling

OMW called me to say hello. We spoke briefly and I told my wife. My wife asked me not to have contact with omw any go forward. She says these conversations (however few there has been) upset me because they trigger questions I don't want to ask.

I told her we make decisions together and if it upsets her when I talk to omw, I'll ask omw not to contact me unless she suspects something. Which neither of us do. But i did learn some things I wanted to know.

Anyway It was nice to hear om is still struggling and things are going poorly with his business. A-hole.


For some reason I had thought you already did this. I might be thinking of someone else though.

I know for me, there was (and sometimes still is) a temptation to talk to OM2's W. Just to keep in the loop. I find that I get angry at my W though, so I have not talked to her since july 09.

CV
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/30/12 05:57 AM
Elaborate as to why you leave GIGANTIC FRIGGING TRIGGER ally open?

I'm slightly confused...
Althought not as unique as I thought initially, I was good friends with OMW before dday. We somehow managed not to swap any bodily fluids during that whole time.

I sometimes feel very alone and I have told my wife that. I sometimes feel the only person who really knows what Im going thru and can answer questions is OMW.

Also, the way we left off last time was a disaster of my doing and after over six weeks being a nice guy, I felt no problem with speaking to her.

We dont meet in person and we dont discuss any sexual topics. We dont review the affair item for item. We chat about our kids, how things are going overall, and thats it.

She does blame her husband for targeting my wife and his other girlfriend by using money. She did tell me that she is having trouble being intimate with him (our only sex related topic). Especially since he asked for something to be done in one of the same spots he filmed my wife doing it. That set her off in a real bad way.

I have no issues with talkiing to her, but my wife does so I will end any contact with her.
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Self-esteem takes a huge hit when you are the victim of infidelity so strengthening that up is imperative to self recovery, IMHO.

Got this from another thread and I didnt want to thread-jack.

The advice all of us get after dday is terrific. One area I half-a$$ed is taking care of me physically. Sure, I went to a dr. for the first time in a while and got the pipes and innerds a looksee, but the area where I was doomed to dispair is between my ears.

Tried a dr. who specializes in the between the ears stuff and as I have written, his advice was lacking. (As their sexlife was and still does dominate my thoughts this dr. suggested I demand anal sex as a way to claim something as mine from my wife.) Maybe there is documented science behind this! But, I did suggest it and my wife asked me to please find something else to claim.

Anyway, self esteem is the topic. How does one regain it once stolen by someone you love?

Let me tell you in the last 3+ weeks, my family and I and about 10 other people on our block have taken up the offer from a physically fit neighbor who offered to conduct running and strength training programs.

I have found that in just about 10 runs and a few stretching and pushups sessions, my self esteem and confidence has grown in ways I can hardly describe. Our neighbor calls each of us to remind us of the run that night. She gets on you when you lose focus. You know that drill instructor from Full Metal Jacket?, she'd make him cry. I can say that I havent felt this good in a long time.

One thing that really is worth noting is how mentally an excercise session make you feel. I have several more pounds to lose but as far as mentally, I find little room for anger, anxiety, or anything but euphoria after a 45 minute jog. I know its been written in umpteen books and, geez, didnt Forrest Gump find himself while running?

Plus, (bedroom talk here so close your eyes if your offended), there is a definite exuberance maybe newfound energy, but exuberance to be found in the boudoir lately. Maybe its more confidence in her body as she has lost about 7 pounds this month? Maybe shes digging me more physically lately? Few things help the self-esteem in my case at least, is a raucaus romp in the hay. I told her exactly that over the weekend and she said anytime she can oblige, just ask. That was hot.

So, in closing, life is like a box of chocolates, you should only eat them if you are going to run 2.5mi that night.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/31/12 03:04 PM
MSS, very cool note on Bricks' thread earlier. I didn't want to disrupt his, but thought you should know that.
You've come a long way, dude! hurray
Thanks.

In between bouts of lunacy and misery, I get lucky with a moment of inspiration.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 01/31/12 10:10 PM
Ahhh....the value of exercise and what it does for self esteem.... such an easy concept but sometimes hard to get off the couch and actually do it!

Anything you do in the self-help area is a boon to self-esteem. Of course, it's important to not commit IBs in the process. For example, right now I would probably trigger if my H starting with all barrels on a fitness regime. He did that while in the beginning of the stages of his A, before he visited OW for the PA.(Cliche, I know)

I happen to think a healthy view of your own self-worth is as key to personal recovery as UA time is to marital recovery. (And personal recovery feeds into marital recovery as well.)
Thought of the day courtesy of another BH:

What she did can never be undone.

I just can't imagine that pain.

Im adding:

Focusing on the future has eased that pain for both of us.
Picked up Mexican food for dinner which is near a restaurant the a-hole likes to go to. Not with my wife, but actually with his family. I just know its his place.

Put me a bad place. Id love to smash his face into pieces.

Which is sad after a solid week of doling positivity to others.

Trying not to ruin a busy weekend. Took a pill. Breathing.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Picked up Mexican food for dinner which is near a restaurant the a-hole likes to go to. Not with my wife, but actually with his family. I just know its his place.

Put me a bad place. Id love to smash his face into pieces.

Which is sad after a solid week of doling positivity to others.

Trying not to ruin a busy weekend. Took a pill. Breathing.


I understand. Had Mexican tonight too and it's killing me. I think it's the cheese on the chimichangas..

Seriously, I understand. Do you think the severity of the trigger was heightened having talked to OMW? I have had a week of triggers and have had to buckle down severely on myself as well. You will get better at recognizing them and they will become less intense.

Hang in there Mike.
No. She triggered nothing. I feel pretty good after speaking to her. I hear how lousy things are there for him. I do get a tidbit of detail unsolicited from her but its mostly things I've figured or knew about to some degree. But we didn't dwell on the a. We talked about surviving.

It was just a standard run of the mill 'I cannot believe this woman (though I used other words) $&);$;): did this to me." moment in the car on the way to get dinner ALONE.

I got home we had tacos, I told her I was in a low moment right now and I love her. Tried a bunch of things to turn it around and alls good today.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
No. She triggered nothing. I feel pretty good after speaking to her. I hear how lousy things are there for him. I do get a tidbit of detail unsolicited from her but its mostly things I've figured or knew about to some degree. But we didn't dwell on the a. We talked about surviving.

It was just a standard run of the mill 'I cannot believe this woman (though I used other words) $&);$;): did this to me." moment in the car on the way to get dinner ALONE.

I got home we had tacos, I told her I was in a low moment right now and I love her. Tried a bunch of things to turn it around and alls good today.


That's a good sign. sounds like you are beginning to manage the triggers better.

CV
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/04/12 05:50 PM
I have that same thought pop up at times, Mike: the, "I can't believe he did this to me!"

I guess it is the anger of having to deal with this - to never be able to forget it.

I know my husband wishes I COULD. I know he wishes it never happened. But...it did.

I don't know if there is a time that I will never have that thought pop up anymore....I know the "answer" is time, but I'm impatient! LOL

I had a big trigger too this week - over a place. HATE it.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/04/12 10:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
No. She triggered nothing. I hear how lousy things are there for him. I do get a tidbit of detail unsolicited from her but its mostly things I've figured or knew about to some degree.


Why would you go to some place that would trigger you?

Why bring WW near a place were OM goes often?

And I'm troubled that WW did not trigger.

Then how is WW able to know the lastest goings and comings of the OM when she is in NC?

Why is the WW volunteering to keep you abrest of the latest 411 (boy does saying 411 make me feel old, and first time using it, anyway back to the story) on the OM.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/04/12 11:00 PM
TR, I think we have to get you on some decaf.

MSS did not say that that FWW was with him when he went to pick up some takeout. Additionally, it was from a place NEAR another establishment where POSOM hung out with HIS family, not where POSOM took FWW.

Kind of a trigger twice removed.

Knowing where he is in recovery, I'll bet MSS has faced down this trigger-by-association, negated it, and has moved on.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/04/12 11:40 PM
I know it sucks, Mike.

And it can be distressing after a lifetime of dippy-hippy "let it out" advice to do this, but you just swallow it.

You can choose to not let it control your day.
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


I guess it is the anger of having to deal with this - to never be able to forget it.



Ah, the essence of my being. I didn't ask for it yet I was given it. her selfishness knows few bounds.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/05/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
TR, I think we have to get you on some decaf.

MSS did not say that that FWW was with him when he went to pick up some takeout. Additionally, it was from a place NEAR another establishment where POSOM hung out with HIS family, not where POSOM took FWW.

Kind of a trigger twice removed.

Knowing where he is in recovery, I'll bet MSS has faced down this trigger-by-association, negated it, and has moved on.


Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
No. She triggered nothing. I hear how lousy things are there for him. I do get a tidbit of detail unsolicited from her but its mostly things I've figured or knew about to some degree.


Why would you go to some place that would trigger you?

Why bring WW near a place were OM goes often?

And I'm troubled that WW did not trigger.

Then how is WW able to know the lastest goings and comings of the OM when she is in NC?

Why is the WW volunteering to keep you abrest of the latest 411 (boy does saying 411 make me feel old, and first time using it, anyway back to the story) on the OM.



NeverGuessed, care to correct this part whereI wrote and you did not respond to: Then how is WW able to know the lastest goings and comings of the OM when she is in NC?

Why is the WW volunteering to keep you abrest of the latest 411 (boy does saying 411 make me feel old, and first time using it, anyway back to the story) on the OM.
Road,

What are you talking about?

Mike
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/05/12 03:22 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
No. She triggered nothing. I feel pretty good after speaking to her. I hear how lousy things are there for him. I do get a tidbit of detail unsolicited from her but its mostly things I've figured or knew about to some degree.


Why is WW knowing what's going on in OM life when there is NC and talking about it. This is what I'm talking about.
My wife doesnt not know what is going on in OM life. I spoke recently with OM'S WIFE. I have a kinship with her that we both stepped into this steamy pile of poo forever so I reached out to her to see hows she is doing. We left off about 6-8 weeks ago poorly throught actions of my own for which I have apologized back then and now again.

We spoke for 10 mins about survival and her kid and mine, left the A pretty much off the table for the most part. Told me he deviant is crashing and burning in his business putting a burden on her as she is a good earner. F-him.

Anyway, I felt great after that call. Told my wife I spoke to her told her we spoke in generalities, nothing to report, their baby is doing good.

No triggerations. No anxiety. No OM details to fill in with my wife. Other than it took place, which my wife would like to stop, I didnt tell him much.

We do have an issue in the POJA as I understand it. Havent yet breached this topic with her but I am still going to remain friends and speak to OMW when I want to. I did not have an affair and I have been able to separate female friendship with the need to bang them all my life. She lost the same priviledge with men. Not me. So when Im ready, this is one area we may have to find trouble on a joint agreement.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/05/12 04:42 AM
Riiiiight, she HAS to PoJA, and you don't by means of secondary gain.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


I guess it is the anger of having to deal with this - to never be able to forget it.



Ah, the essence of my being. I didn't ask for it yet I was given it. her selfishness knows few bounds.


Wrong thinking mike! What you mean is "her selfishness **KNEW** no bounds", right?

Gotta get thinking this way man or it will become a huge hindrance.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling

We do have an issue in the POJA as I understand it. Havent yet breached this topic with her but I am still going to remain friends and speak to OMW when I want to. I did not have an affair and I have been able to separate female friendship with the need to bang them all my life. She lost the same priviledge with men. Not me. So when Im ready, this is one area we may have to find trouble on a joint agreement.



Are you ready for it Mike? Get you're helmet on.... twoxfour

There... I mean really?!?! Dude... Ep's aren't just for her. They are for both of you. This is a highly disrespectful comment and a hindrance to you guys recovering. It is just s stupid stupid move. It shows your wife that her feelings aren't important, that you care more about yourself than your marriage and that you will simply do whatever you want...

That's not recovery, that's something else... Your wife had the affair, it ruined the relationship you had with this couple and you really shouldn't be talking to her unless there is suspected contact.
Right. Syntax error. Knew no bounds is more appropriate . Agreed.

I was very close non sexual friends with this woman. We both suffered huge losses at the hands of our spouses. Almost irreparable damage.

As we have a non spoken about now financial matter which is out of my wife's hands and im dealing with the deviants wife to see it through.

No meet ups. No nakedness. Just a every other month or so call to see how she is doing and to remind her of her husbands commitment. Not that he takes those too seriously.

Ivegiven up almost all my friends because thet MAY have learned of the affair. Don't see why I need to give up this one who suffers from the same affliction I'm suffering from.

And it's always about us staying vigilant.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/05/12 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
My wife doesnt not know what is going on in OM life. I spoke recently with OM'S WIFE. I have a kinship with her that we both stepped into this steamy pile of poo forever so I reached out to her to see hows she is doing. We left off about 6-8 weeks ago poorly throught actions of my own for which I have apologized back then and now again.

We spoke for 10 mins about survival and her kid and mine, left the A pretty much off the table for the most part. Told me he deviant is crashing and burning in his business putting a burden on her as she is a good earner. F-him.

Anyway, I felt great after that call. Told my wife I spoke to her told her we spoke in generalities, nothing to report, their baby is doing good.

No triggerations. No anxiety. No OM details to fill in with my wife. Other than it took place, which my wife would like to stop, I didnt tell him much.

We do have an issue in the POJA as I understand it. Havent yet breached this topic with her but I am still going to remain friends and speak to OMW when I want to. I did not have an affair and I have been able to separate female friendship with the need to bang them all my life. She lost the same priviledge with men. Not me. So when Im ready, this is one area we may have to find trouble on a joint agreement.



Thank you reposting you cleared up my first understanding.

However you should not be giving WW OM updates. This has nothing to do with being POJA. This comes under NC. Makes me think you need to gloat and point out how your replacement is up manure creek without a paddle i front of WW.

Another none POJA item is that you should not be contacting OMW. Especially one that wanted to get you on the slippery slope. Don't tell me you have no intentions. I don't care what excuse you need to take extra risks or any way you want to justify taking any extra risks.

The only time a BS needs and should contact the OPS post dday is to exchange the truth so neither BS is left in the dark.

Once that is done, then contact to monitor AP's where abouts to kill the affair. Once the affair is over and NC in place the only need for contact between the BS's is if either one suspects the affair restarting and need to confirm one AP is no where near the other AP.

You know where your WW is. You are not suspecting the affair is restarting so there needs to be NC for you with the OM's family as well.

Even if the BS and OPS were friends before the affair there is no need to continue that friendship post affair.

If you follow MB then you place safe boundaries for you and your WW.
So were at a big party yesterday with people from town none of whom no of the A. In fact, this party was for the daughter of my wife's friend who my wife would beg to come with her to OMs house when she was watching the baby so the a-hole wouldnt be able to make his moves. But, she doesnt know about their relationship.

Anyway, we were with lots of friends and drinking and I really was having a great time actually. My friend made a harmless and funny and really innappropriate comment (as is his way) about getting our wives liquored up and seeing where things would take us. He did it front of our wives, but again Ive know him 6 years and he is known to be very innappropriate and offensive particulary with booze and the women are around. BUT NOT A THREAT. Big difference.

A-hole did his work on the sly. My friend is overt about it and funny.

Well, my mood went from happy to freaking mad because as my buddy's comments were tongue in cheek and ha ha, my wife actually went through what he was suggesting with another guy. She couldnt detect the wrongness in her actions.

Im different from everyone else. I dont like being different. I want to be able to enjoy life sort of like I did before when an amusing innocuous comment didnt send me into a nose dive emotionally.

She has stolen so much from me.

I tried to hide my anger but wasnt so successful. Life really stinks.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
So were at a big party yesterday with people from town none of whom no of the A. In fact, this party was for the daughter of my wife's friend who my wife would beg to come with her to OMs house when she was watching the baby so the a-hole wouldnt be able to make his moves. But, she doesnt know about their relationship.

Anyway, we were with lots of friends and drinking and I really was having a great time actually. My friend made a harmless and funny and really innappropriate comment (as is his way) about getting our wives liquored up and seeing where things would take us. He did it front of our wives, but again Ive know him 6 years and he is known to be very innappropriate and offensive particulary with booze and the women are around. BUT NOT A THREAT. Big difference.

A-hole did his work on the sly. My friend is overt about it and funny.

Well, my mood went from happy to freaking mad because as my buddy's comments were tongue in cheek and ha ha, my wife actually went through what he was suggesting with another guy. She couldnt detect the wrongness in her actions.

Im different from everyone else. I dont like being different. I want to be able to enjoy life sort of like I did before when an amusing innocuous comment didnt send me into a nose dive emotionally.

She has stolen so much from me.

I tried to hide my anger but wasnt so successful. Life really stinks.


in my experience, guys don't comment like that unless they desire something. It's not innocuous, it's dangerous. These types of things are threats to your M Mike.

I'm sorry it happened. I'm sorry you triggered so hard (maybe the alcohol?). It's for this reason that I rarely drink in public and if i do, it is only just a drink, never 2.

There are two types of guys that seduce women... The ones that do it on the sly and the ones that do it openly. Sounds like he's testing the waters to me.

It's not something I would want to stay willfully ignorant of.

It also seems you are fighting implementing POJA the way it is supposed to be done. She POJA's everything, but you only POJA what you want. This is going to have long term negative effects on your recovery. Specially when it concerns OMW.

I really want you guys to succeed.

CV
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager

There are two types of guys that seduce women... The ones that do it on the sly and the ones that do it openly. Sounds like he's testing the waters to me.

It's not something I would want to stay willfully ignorant of.

It also seems you are fighting implementing POJA the way it is supposed to be done. She POJA's everything, but you only POJA what you want. This is going to have long term negative effects on your recovery. Specially when it concerns OMW.



CV-

Prior to learning my wife was cheating on me, I was a very liberal guy. Obviously too liberal.

I certainly am not one to judge a guy's intentions. Lord knows. But, there is a big difference between overt, sexually tinged banter between ALL parties (all wives and husbands were there) and hiring a woman and keeping her close while paying her money to keep her close and then engaging in a LTA in complete silence.

If my buddy wanted to have my wife, he would ask. Instead, its harmless adult fun. I truly believe that.

I used to join in on it, CV. Guy talk. Harmless. We'd compare notes and puff our chests about things. We'd laugh.

When OM was at my house all the dozens of times, we NEVER talked liked that. In fact, our guy talk was relagated to football, gambling, and I cant think of anything else. THAT should have been a clue. The biggest clue I never saw that my wife and he were doing each other was long before they had their baby a-hole and his wife were weekly sunday dinner guests. Why would they want to spend so much time here with my then 2 babies? He couldnt get enough of my wife.

You are right though. I am not all-in on MB principles. I get so angered at it all that the thought of UA is tough to get into at times. And you are right about the POJA in how she's on-board with it and Im half-a$$ing it.

She has taken so much from me and I want it all back. Thats where my head is today.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


CV-

Prior to learning my wife was cheating on me, I was a very liberal guy. Obviously too liberal.

I certainly am not one to judge a guy's intentions. Lord knows. But, there is a big difference between overt, sexually tinged banter between ALL parties (all wives and husbands were there) and hiring a woman and keeping her close while paying her money to keep her close and then engaging in a LTA in complete silence.

If my buddy wanted to have my wife, he would ask. Instead, its harmless adult fun. I truly believe that.


He's that kinda guy, huh? If he wanted your wife he would ask you for her? I'm not convinced that's the type of guy I want near my wife. I'm a firm believer in the "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks" philosophy. If he's saying it, he's thought about it. C'mon, we are guys. Here is a guy thinking about your wife in a sexual way (whether it is phrased as a joke or not), and expressing it. if it were me... That'd put him on my radar.


I used to join in on it, CV. Guy talk. Harmless. We'd compare notes and puff our chests about things. We'd laugh.

When OM was at my house all the dozens of times, we NEVER talked liked that. In fact, our guy talk was relagated to football, gambling, and I cant think of anything else. THAT should have been a clue. The biggest clue I never saw that my wife and he were doing each other was long before they had their baby a-hole and his wife were weekly sunday dinner guests. Why would they want to spend so much time here with my then 2 babies? He couldnt get enough of my wife.

You are right though. I am not all-in on MB principles. I get so angered at it all that the thought of UA is tough to get into at times. And you are right about the POJA in how she's on-board with it and Im half-a$$ing it.

She has taken so much from me and I want it all back. Thats where my head is today.


Don't you see the disconnect here? Half-a$$ing it means half-A$$ed recovery. The way to get it all back (and more and better) is like poker... You have to go all in. You have a good hand right now, but you aren't playing it well.

Posted By: SadDude Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/06/12 04:11 PM
Hey Mike, the MB site has a piece about the BS's seeking "compensation" for the hurt that they've endured at the hands of the WS's A. The ideas offered by MB are noble (to have a spouse that seeks to meet all your ENs), but for some, it's not very satisfactory, as it doesn't address hurt pride. I'm not sure there is anything that will- it may be that you'll have to learn to accept it as the unchangeable past, and figure out a way to forgive, and move on.
This may be a "time heals all wounds" thing.
Sometimes I dont want to play poker with someone who cheats.
Dude-

What you are seeing in my latest posts is the extreme lows our women's actions can put us in.

I was 'blessed' in that I experienced no fog or withdrawal in my wife after dday.

Read enough of these horror stories and you'll see just how good that is.

Yes, Im looking a gift horse in the mouth in that my wife is standing on her head to make me happy and remove what she did from our memory and I kind cant see the forest for the trees, if you will.

Time is the answer. Let it happen faster.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Sometimes I dont want to play poker with someone who cheats.


Lol.. yeah. I understand that. Been there. Thing with cheaters is you never know who they are until they are caught.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/06/12 09:35 PM
I feel this way at times too, Mike: that I am now different. I can't watch certain movies I used to love or listen to some old, favorite music that sends me over the edge. The topic or the lyrics just are too painful now.

I hate sitting in church and someone bringing up infidelity and having it hit me square in the chest. At least that's usually in my favor as the faithful spouse (unlike Hollywood where it is glorified in ways) but still: I don't WANT to have to sit there and be reminded - in church of all places - of what happened.

I can't watch certain tv shows anymore because of the association with the name of OW. And with her name being so popular, that's a tough one!

I hate that I have a bad attitude towards my daughter's new boyfriend because he happens to be from the same city/state as OW...

SO..yes...I understand feeling you've had things taken from you. You hate feeling like you can't laugh and "be normal" anymore over things that SHOULD be innocuous.

BUT...you know what? It got me to thinking. Maybe some of this "should be innocuous" stuff really shouldn't be to begin with! Maybe if less people viewed it as innocuous, cheating wouldn't be so dang rampant. I don't know.

It helps me to consider myself more highly evolved because of this. You know: you become a "marriage snob" after all this. It's like when you learn how to cook really well: boxed dinners and "fake food" are for lesser palates. You now have a higher marital palate and are working on now just having a boxed one, but a gourmet one that is of exceptional quality!

Sucks we had to go through hell to propel us towards gourmet though.
Sunny:

I get your premise.

I dont want to be this uber marriage know-it-all.

I want my life back where I was able to enjoy most situations, watch most tv shows, and have friendships that go back 25 years.

But, I all too easy slip into bad moods, I watch the Discovery channel exclusively, and I havent spoken to a few of my oldest friends in almost a year for fear that they heard the rumor of my wife.

To have to shift to this new paradigm of marriage and life because of my wife's failures is not working out well lately.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/06/12 10:22 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Sunny:

I get your premise.

I dont want to be this uber marriage know-it-all.

I want my life back where I was able to enjoy most situations, watch most tv shows, and have friendships that go back 25 years.

But, I all too easy slip into bad moods, I watch the Discovery channel exclusively, and I havent spoken to a few of my oldest friends in almost a year for fear that they heard the rumor of my wife.

To have to shift to this new paradigm of marriage and life because of my wife's failures is not working out well lately.



Well, you don't have to be a know-it-all; you just have to learn that you CAN come out with a better marriage than most people ever thought they could have. It's not the knowing - it's the doing.

BUT...I empathize with you: some days I have the right attitude about it - some days I just have to make it through and let H help me.

Usually (but not always) the bad moods come when the work isn't being done - ya know?

I had to face down the "do people know" question right away in my sitch. Unbeknown to me, our oldest son got up in front of the entire youth group at church and spoke about what was going on! Well...OF COURSE kids are going to tell their parents. Other than several REALLY good friends, I had not talked about it at the time. I had to come to terms with the fact that for my son, this was his life too - and if he found support and comfort going through this by sharing - well, it just was what it was. We don't really live in a small town but it's a planned community type deal - and trust me, word gets around. I never know anymore when I talk with someone if they know what my husband did or not.

I just figure everyone has skeletons. I didn't do anything wrong - so my head is high. My husband knows our son did this. He understands that it is part of the consequences of his actions to have people know. I can't imagine what it's like for him - but it's his own doing.

Most people would never have the gall to bring it up even if they've heard. A lot of times, they figure it's just rumor and not really true. Once in awhile, you are able to help someone because they come to you, knowing you've been where they're at. (That happened recently to me.) You feel better knowing you've helped them know they aren't alone.

It does suck to not be able to just go back to your old life as it was - in terms of the paradigm shift. But, you have a choice to make: are you going to let your feelings guide your actions?

We are all entitled to bad days if you ask me! Heck - we are all entitled to decide if we are capable of recovering after we've been cheated on. But, there does come a time when you've made the decision to follow it through - and true.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/06/12 10:59 PM
Just a quick PS:

I know when you're feeling rotten really isn't the time you want to hear "it's going to be great...just wait!"

It's probably also not the time when you want to receive advice.

Sometimes we just need to vent - and that's OK. I AM sorry, Mike, that you are having a rough time of it right now. I understand. Some days are just that way. Hang in there!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/06/12 11:29 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Sunny:

I get your premise.

I dont want to be this uber marriage know-it-all.

I want my life back where I was able to enjoy most situations, watch most tv shows, and have friendships that go back 25 years.

But, I all too easy slip into bad moods, I watch the Discovery channel exclusively, and I havent spoken to a few of my oldest friends in almost a year for fear that they heard the rumor of my wife.

To have to shift to this new paradigm of marriage and life because of my wife's failures is not working out well lately.

Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Just a quick PS:

I know when you're feeling rotten really isn't the time you want to hear "it's going to be great...just wait!"

It's probably also not the time when you want to receive advice.

Sometimes we just need to vent - and that's OK. I AM sorry, Mike, that you are having a rough time of it right now. I understand. Some days are just that way. Hang in there!



This is why moving after an affair is good.

However a good friend should not act any different to their friend once they find out about their friends spouse had an affair.

However I have seen where a social group has dropped this troubled couple because they take a natural defensive action and dump the whole couple to keep the predatory WS away from their marriages.

Circlinng the wagons. You don't wait till the indians attack to cirle the wagons. You cirlce the wagons as soon as you see the indians are spotted on the crest of the far off hill.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/06/12 11:59 PM
Mike,

Previously I only cared about hanging with friends because our marriage was "good" at best.

When my wife and I dated in high school, I regularly avoided my friends so I could have time with her (it annoyed her then, but only because my friends would hunt me down).

Now? Now it's back to the same. I avoid my friends, because I would rather spend time with her, because she is my favorite companion.

That is part of the foundations of a great marriage.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 12:12 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Mike,



When my wife and I dated in high school, I regularly avoided my friends so I could have time with her (it annoyed her then, but only because my friends would hunt me down).

Now? Now it's back to the same. I avoid my friends, because I would rather spend time with her, because she is my favorite companion.




That is the way it should always be a husband spending all his time with his best friend. I hope you know which one I am talking about. The one he married.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling

To have to shift to this new paradigm of marriage and life because of my wife's failures is not working out well lately.



Mike,

This is a paradigm that you both should have been living before. This is the crux of it. Us failing to live in this "new" paradigm is what led to unhappy circumstances for us pre-A... not meeting En's, DJ's, AO's... All of it.

We can't (and should not have) live in willful ignorance. If we (and the WS) were all marriage experts to begin with, we wouldn't be here.
CV, my good friend, I failed at nothing.

When I was unhappy about my EN, I told this woman on dozens of occasions. I TOLD HER I WAS NOT HAPPY. Ive threatened to leave my supposedly chaste, frigid wife for someone with a normal libido who want to have sex with me without the begging. To realize she in fact has a pretty normal sex life just not with me was just one of dozens and dozens eye openers.

She, on the other hand, chose the path of least resistance. One where she escaped the cruel world of real employment that could have helped the family bottom line for the la la world of making a few hundred dollars cash at first being his 'assistant' and later as his nanny. Both were fronts for their sexual relationship.

Maybe a hint from her about six years ago she was not happy as well would have been good. That she resented our lack of time together and needed more affection. That she was having feelings for other people. I know the financial EN she was lacking was a big thing but i did earn a living and in modern times a spouse earning $12K/yr giving bjs to another man wasnt helping out paying our bills very well. This whole thing is not on me, its on her.

I took the stress and agony of coming up short in our finances myself. She has the same level college degree I have, she has no excuses but laziness. She wanted those dinners and clothes and jewelry and being selfish, she care little about anyone but herself. So, sticking around and insisting that she continue to work for her man year after year became a fighting point I never won.

What I am doing is protecting my kids from saddness because to make them sad and part of a broken home for the reasons this woman accumlated is not happening on my watch. Therefore I eat the turd sandwich that is my marriage, I sleep with my wife, i try to make a Picasso out of poop and maybe it will be easier to do someday.


Now, Im supposed to have 15+ hrs a week canoodling and forgiving and watching those missing sparks fly with this person? Who, frankly, I dont like very much lately.

Well Wednesday is 9th month mark of my world ending. What do I get the person whose destroyed my persona for such a day?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 03:23 AM
HEY, ANGRY GUY!

Has UA time been failing? Cause you, sir, are a flaming rageoholic.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
CV, my good friend, I failed at nothing.

When I was unhappy about my EN, I told this woman on dozens of occasions. I TOLD HER I WAS NOT HAPPY. Ive threatened to leave my supposedly chaste, frigid wife for someone with a normal libido who want to have sex with me without the begging. To realize she in fact has a pretty normal sex life just not with me was just one of dozens and dozens eye openers.

She, on the other hand, chose the path of least resistance. One where she escaped the cruel world of real employment that could have helped the family bottom line for the la la world of making a few hundred dollars cash at first being his 'assistant' and later as his nanny. Both were fronts for their sexual relationship.

Maybe a hint from her about six years ago she was not happy as well would have been good. That she resented our lack of time together and needed more affection. That she was having feelings for other people. I know the financial EN she was lacking was a big thing but i did earn a living and in modern times a spouse earning $12K/yr giving bjs to another man wasnt helping out paying our bills very well. This whole thing is not on me, its on her.

I took the stress and agony of coming up short in our finances myself. She has the same level college degree I have, she has no excuses but laziness. She wanted those dinners and clothes and jewelry and being selfish, she care little about anyone but herself. So, sticking around and insisting that she continue to work for her man year after year became a fighting point I never won.

What I am doing is protecting my kids from saddness because to make them sad and part of a broken home for the reasons this woman accumlated is not happening on my watch. Therefore I eat the turd sandwich that is my marriage, I sleep with my wife, i try to make a Picasso out of poop and maybe it will be easier to do someday.


Now, Im supposed to have 15+ hrs a week canoodling and forgiving and watching those missing sparks fly with this person? Who, frankly, I dont like very much lately.

Well Wednesday is 9th month mark of my world ending. What do I get the person whose destroyed my persona for such a day?


Mike,

I understand your anger. I had days... No weeks, where I couldn't stand the sight or smell of my W after the A. Yeah, we hysterically bonded, yeah we talked and spent every waking moment together (and the sleeping ones too).

But guess what? There comes a point when we have to look at ourselves and say "I could've done better". What I am talking about is not being to blame for the affair, but for the pre-A state of the marriage.

I understand you have a lot of resentment... I really do. Let me ask a question.

Do you really want your marriage with your wife, or are you just riding this out til the kids are old enough?

You seem mostly on board with MB, but not with your wife. Is that about right?

CV
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 05:55 AM
No, no, no.

Mike is NOT on board with MB. Mike is on board with using secondary gain as an excuse to do whatever he wants, and Mike is on board with expecting his wife to adhere to MB.

He's cherry picking, and he doesn't care; about himself, about his wife, about his marriage.

He's content to justify his behavior with anger, and content to justify his anger by bringing up the affair when it's convenient to his moods and motives.

Good luck with that, Mike.
Mb requires a high level of contempt ignorance.

And HHH, I prefer to spoken to and not in the 3rd person on my thread.

She spent over half our marriage with her boyfriend. I'll be angry until I'm not angry anymore.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 02:04 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Mb requires a high level of contempt ignorance.

And HHH, I prefer to spoken to and not in the 3rd person on my thread.

She spent over half our marriage with her boyfriend. I'll be angry until I'm not angry anymore.



I asked someone here when this anger has happened.

He doesn't like to answer polite questions.

The reason for the question is to see if someone's anger is algining with the well known anger phase. As with the well know HB phase not everyone has one but enough do to recognise that phase.

Many a BS after the six month mark are they have processed what happened during the affair and are now feeling secure enough that the affair is dead, their WS is not leaving the marriage and family.

So the BS feels secure enough to let themselves get angry at their WS.

This anger phase lasts about six months.

Now when someone is a rageaholic maybe a talk with the Harley's can help pull them off the anger ledge.


MSS,
It may sound good and a form of just compenation (a phrase that I have trouble with myself) but when you think it through to hate someone as long as the affair lasted will not help even the score. The score will never be even. The score can only be forgotten.

Think this through lets say your 35 (don't no your age or length of the PA) the affair went on for ten years, lets through in that you did not have a dday for 5 years after the PA end.

15 years total.

So you think its a good idea to hate your WW for 15 years. You'll be 50 by then with middle aged sex equipment and you're going to expect WW to say good BH is over the anger phase now we can start recovery.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 02:18 PM
I'll be angry until I'm not angry anymore...

...and then I'll realize, regretfully,
  • the extent of the permanent damage done to my family
  • the difference in my own life-quality in the meantime
while I luxuriated in my anger-thon.

Dude, this is ALL on you. There is nothing that FWW can do now to help. In a thread on "Other Topics" Pep and I debated the utility of rage, with me being the proponent (Big shock!). The difference between that discussion and this one is that there the purpose to assembling a sizable amount of angry energy was to use it as a tool, either self-directed or externally, to fuel the drive to bring about a needed action or change.

You have NOTHING that you say you would have FWW do (today) to assist you. Your rage is purposeless, and by such, is wasteful of your own mental/emotional energy.

You don't (Can't? Won't?) avail yourself of the benefits of this site by internalizing (as opposed to acknowledging) the good advice you've received over the nine months of your tenancy here, but here's a recap of some of the salient points:
  • Of the tri-partite women in your life, two (the innocent bride, and the bj-for-jewelry tart) are both dead and gone. You might want to make a life with the third.
  • The future is the only part of your life that you can control.
  • E-A-O-T-P
It would be well for you to recite these on rising each morning, and during the day whenever appropriate.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Mb requires a high level of contempt ignorance.

She spent over half our marriage with her boyfriend. I'll be angry until I'm not angry anymore.



Mike,

It's ok to have contempt. As long as it's directed at the right thing/person/actions.

Hold contempt for the affair
hold contempt for your wayward spouse (NOT your FORMER wayward spouse)
Hold contempt for the OM if you must
hold contempt towards selfishness, towards lying and deceit, towards the enablers of affairs
Hold contempt for secrecy and greed and all the rest of the crap that goes with affairs.

But it's not ok to remain holding a former spouse you are pledging/promising to reconcile with in contempt.

No MB-er advocates being ignorant of contempt. To any level. But here's the thing... When you have a spouse who's willing to reconcile after their affair and you have committed to working reconciliation with them, you are promising to no longer hold them in contempt.

There is an end-goal that is coupled with putting all these safe-guards in place... It's called forgiveness.

Now I am a person who is prone to anger. Back in the day, I was the guy that would just as soon knocked the (*&^ outta someone for even looking my wife's way than to talk to them. Actually, I was kinda that way about everything. Took me years to overcome the anger and exercise self control.

It all went out the window when I discovered my wife's A's (which by the way spanned nearly half our marriage by Dday, not continuously physical, but the lies, deceit, etc.. remained).

I was angry... I beat the OM (2x), and on one occasion I hit my wife. That's where anger leaves you. In the crapper. Left unchecked and self-justified, anger leads you into the crapper. It left me with this realization:

"I am the same as my former wayward wife." Different actions to be sure, but the same heart. I had become selfish, self-justifying, I began lying to justify my behavior, I was exercising independent behavior... In short, I was entitled.

Thing is, Mike, is that our entitlement never justifies our mistreating of another person (or ourselves for that matter). Even if it is just in words or attitude.

Now I suspect you never went as far as I did. That's good. I applaud that. But hanging on to anger towards a FWS who is working (note I did not say being angry at the affair or over what happened)will eat you alive and keep you constantly triggered.

I see you hanging on, mike, but to a lot of the wrong things. I see you hanging on to blood-money (which is a constant trigger, even though you don't see it), I see you hanging on to DJ's (in the form of not POJA-ing with your wife in regards to contact with OMW.. Which BTW is also a trigger possibility), and you are hanging on to your anger. You are giving it life and breath. You are fueling it.


The truth is, reconciliation requires the opposite of all this.

It requires humility and meekness (not humiliation and being a push-over). And this is not weakness, but strength. It shows that even though I can exact payment --any payment I deem necessary-- I will instead show firmness and gentleness... Even towards a person who once secretly plotted against me.

It means swallowing the pride that is misplaced and puffed up in our own minds. So we don't fall into the same temptation as our FWS

It means that instead of nurturing our hurt, we need to work towards fostering our own healing and recovery. It's the difference between enduring something and working through something.

Like I said, I'm rooting for you. I WANT you to succeed.
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager


Let me ask a question.

Do you really want your marriage with your wife, or are you just riding this out til the kids are old enough?

Is that about right?


Mike, did I miss the answer to this?

CV
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 03:21 PM
I was wondering the same thing that CV brings up, Mike, in terms of wondering if you really wanted to stay in this marriage.

To add another layer of perspective, what jumps out at me is this: I don't think you have any respect for your wife currently. It is impossible, IMO, to be in-love with someone you do not respect. And of course, when you aren't in-love, things that bother you take on a higher level of disdain.

Am I saying you SHOULD respect your wife? I understand that she has to earn that after what she did. But, I believe that you have to WANT to allow her to earn that back and give her the chance to, or else none of this is going to work, esp. after 9 months.

Sometimes this takes time and yes, there are phases of anger that are typical in this whole process and they are OK - and even healthy in ways. As CV pointed out, however, it's important to be angry at the right things. I also believe, personally, that bitterness is different than anger. Bitterness can destroy reconciliation pretty easily.

In my case, I always knew that standing, whip in hand, ready to beat my husband at the hint of a mistake or trigger would never work. We would need to be a team if real healing was going to take place. This involves us always working together and not against one another. I had to learn to guard my thoughts and what I said about him - and attack the actions, not the man, when anger struck. That's the only way I could allow my heart (and head) to respect him and thus love him again.
I reserve the right to grow my love and affection my wife and make life long decisions for myself at the speed of my choosing.

Yes, NG, I have said a million times in my posts, Mrs. mss has done all she can do. This is my rage, my problem. Only affects her in the silent treatments and palpable anxiety I bring to the home.

There is no rage in terms of AO'ing. At least being able to AO would allow me to vent, Im forced as per doctrine to not AO and thus it gets bottled up inside. And then I come onto this site and let loose. Which we can agree is better than getting in her face and letting her have it.

Im mad at HAVING to be mad. I want to go 10 minutes without the image of my wife getting into his car off to a dinner then hotel. And lots of other images.

Im in a bad low point in this hate/love/forgive/reconcile/moving on cycle.

RESPECT. Thats a good one, Sunny. Im working on it. Im not going to recap a long affair story but the moral of it is this woman had ZERO for me and just about the same for herself. So, because her bonehead boyfriend was dumb enough to get his movie making career derailed by his wife and his video'ing of my wife performing was uncovered that I should all of a sudden have respect for her?

I know it and he knows it and my wife knows it (but denies it), even if my wife ended the babysitting gig and wasnt under his employ, all he would have to do is dangle a fancy dinner and she'd be his. Respect? THIS COULD HAVE GONE ON FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.

And, CV and Sunny, if Jr. was off to college tomorrow leaving an empty nest, I cant say for sure what I would do. Luckily, I have an eight year window to erase some pretty lousy memories. So, right now, and for the last 9 months, Ive done as much as I can muster in terms of MB strategy towards a better marriage.

Short of having OMs baby, I find her actions towards me and my kids particularly egregious. There was a level of "could not care less about them" attitude during the affair that I only realized after dday that I cannot overcome. She allowed this man into my home and my children grew a love for him and his baby!!! Heck, I LIKED HIM.

She was despicable, really.

Like a lot of things in my life I am very conflicted about my marriage. I love her today because she has turned into someone I would love to be my wife. I am irate that she could not stop the affair long ago or tell me she wanted out much when they discussed back then.

Bad day(s). I'll be OK.
Oh, CV, I dream daily of an accidental run-in with OM so I can re-arrange his face. I imagine it at a Target or Best Buy. And, man, the legal ramifications will be something I will deal with while I think about a bashed nose or maybe a missing tooth.

He must know its coming. (I did ask OMW a few conversations ago if he was spending extra time in the gym to bulk up. Not that it would matter, Id be able to handle nearly anyone in that situation.)

But, right now its a fantasy and probably will only be a fantasy.
Posted By: SadDude Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 04:34 PM
I empathize w/ you, Mike. I'm battling the awful visions, trying to keep them at bay. All the best advice coming my way is to move on to today & the future, and the past is the past, we can't change it. We have choices on how to live the rest of our lives.
A line from a favorite song (No more cloudy Days - the Eagles)is, "I believe in second chances..." I expect time will warm up our hearts. Good luck, my friend.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 04:40 PM
Mike,

I know your story enough from all the reading here - so, I do understand what you are feeling on the respect issue. I'm not saying it should just be given! I'm saying there has to be a spirit of wanting it to be there and acknowledging it when it is shown present day.

I can only imagine that your wife had zero self-respect when she got involved with OM. It sounds like she is trying to do things currently that allow her redemption in the respect department.

I wish you success in finding the will to recover. I can tell you this much from my own experience: trying to recover while taking shortcuts is very difficult - and why people find themselves together but unrecovered (and heading for divorce) several years down the road after the affair.

I believe every BS has the right to say they cannot recover after their spouse cheats. It's a perfectly acceptable response to adultery. But if you choose reconciliation - do it right or else you just screw yourself over forever. And yes, time sometimes changes that outlook. I'm 15 months out in terms of recovery and every now and then I still have to count the positives and negatives of choosing recovery when I trigger.
Thanks Dude and Sunny,

Im having a moment. Is all.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 06:09 PM
I reserve the right to grow my love and affection my wife and make life long decisions for myself at the speed of my choosing.

Fair enough. My only point will continue to be that the "choosing" would best be done by the MSS who writes here about the pain of the conflict, and not by a mere shadow of MSS composed of his baser impulses. (Oh, that reptilian brain again!)
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Thanks Dude and Sunny,

Im having a moment. Is all.



And hopefully they are becoming fewer and more far between. Once you get rid of those two big triggers you will begin seeing faster change in your attitude. Just my thoughts on this, but I think at 9 months you should have a clearer idea of where you are headed with (or without) your wife.

CV
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 10:39 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Mb requires a high level of contempt ignorance.

And HHH, I prefer to spoken to and not in the 3rd person on my thread.

She spent over half our marriage with her boyfriend. I'll be angry until I'm not angry anymore.




Tell me then, Mike, why I should spend my time trying to reason with a person who is temporarily insane?

You show no indication of wanting to listen, or in wanting to apply the MB principals to yourself.

And then? Then you state that MB requires "contempt and ignorance."

No, sir. It requires surrendering your contempt, it requires surrendering your ignorance.

You are choosing contempt; for your wife, for this program. You are being wilfully ignorant to justify your own lack of care.


Here is the total sum of your choices; recover your marriage, or don't.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/07/12 10:42 PM
Side note; for our ignorance to be anything other than willful, requires innocence.

You and I no longer have the luxury of innocence. It was taken from us.
Had to move my thoughts here so not to intrude of another's thread. My reaction to a great post by NG:

Discipline is what's lacking. Never doubted all of the good intentions and gospel of what MB is about. Im armed with the information on what I need to do and my wife certainly has shown a remarkable amount of MB wherewithal throughout.

So faith in you people and knowledge of the what to do has never been at issue.

Having the discipline to follow the path. Can one be taught discipline?, or is one born disciplined?, can one suddenly HAVE some discipline??

The more I think about it, these books and teachings are about discipline in the face of a major obstacle (in this case: adultery.)

Following a course (knowledge), belief the end result is obtainable (faith), and an unwavering eye on the prize (discipline) are holy trinity of recovery from anything.

Its in this last piece, Im faltering badly at times. I lose focus and let a miniscule particle of data in a long period of time set me back into the dark ages. Something from my vivid imagination, ususally never confirmed, can weaken my resolve and put me and my family on edge and anxious.

Having a zen-like ability to RE-CALCULATE when my inner GPS gets off track is something Im striving for but am eluded by. I want it. She wants it. How is I cant stay on the straight and narrow path of MB tenets? I lack a discipline I read in others who've been there before. I wont list names but the sure know who they are.

I have more work to do in my recovery for sure.

But, NG, your point is well take again.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/09/12 04:31 AM
Mike, you've got it all right there in front of you. Grab it and don't let go.
Being disciplined takes... well... discipline. Ok, that's not a good definition. Being disciplined means repetition of a task or thought or philosophy. It means constant practice and study. Since you mentioned zen, let me use kung fu as an analogy...

Masters aren't born. There may be natural inclination in some areas, but they require constant practice and study until the moves flow and become second nature. So they can perform, act and react in a certain way without thinking.

So... discipline yourself! Oh... and acknowledge that it takes time to do it too. A master is not born overnight.

CV
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/09/12 07:59 AM
Military men learn discipline primarily through accountability; to themselves, to their squad, to their CO.

Through this accountability, however, what is formed is NOT discipline, but HABITS.

There is a single fault in relying on self-discipline; willpower.

Applying self-discipline requires the use of willpower - and willpower is a limited resource.

Think similarly to the Love Bank model... a willpower bank. Every time you practice some form of restraint, you are removing units of willpower from your stock. Not gonna eat the cookies you really want to eat? That subtracts units. Not gonna scream at the a-hole who cut you off in traffic (but want to)? That subtracts units.

Eventually, you run into an issue of restraint which requires more will than you have to give... and you simply don't restrain yourself.

This can also be applied to doing things you don't want to do - it requires willpower to do things you do not want to, or do not like to.


So, what's exhausting your willpower?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/09/12 02:06 PM
Discipline is entirely a learned skill. Think not? Compare a fifteen-month-old to that same being as a 23-year-old Marine recruit, or martial arts devotee, or medical student.

It comes from the complete understanding of the effects resulting from decisions that can (must?) be made. That recruit knows what responsibilities are on his shoulders while on the rifle range - the order of operations prescribed by his superiors, the violation of which will result in his being reprimanded/punished. The burden to follow THAT procedure by his sergeant/officers is the result of knowing that NOT punishing the failing soldier releases from his peers the necessary comfort of being assured that the controls on their actions are vital, not arbitrary. And the "mindset" of discipline extends to something as abstract as correctly making the bed in the barracks. (Somehow, the toilets in the engine-room on the USS Carl Vinson get scrubbed. It's a corollary of my premises here that the quality of that operation eventually has an effect on the precision of the launch and recovery of jet aircraft on the flight deck.)

Special treatment, or its anticipation, is the dire enemy of good discipline. The recruit who is the son of the CO would inevitably be the least attentive to otherwise obscure mandated actions.

So too with self-discipline. When the rules governing effects associated with causes are doubted/debated/rejected, self-discipline is impossible. Eventually, one of two things happens. 1)The system suffers sufficient damage that it fails entirely. 2)The subject learns that "the rules" do apply to his case, and forces himself to take the better action.

MSS, my friend, in this matter you have proved to be a slow learner. For that, to get it out of the way, let's blame your parents and childhood role models.

Anyway, you persist in your approximately three-week cycles of "Trigger - React to trigger inappropriately - Generate resentment - Feel like [censored]- Injure your family - Be reassured - Equilibrium"

The red portion is your one opportunity to interrupt the cycle. Let me tell you a secret: YOU AIN'T SPECIAL, DUDE. Once you fail to take the right red action, you are destined to proceed through the other steps.

Here is what it should look like: "Trigger - Analyze trigger - Dismiss trigger"

I'd type more right now, but I'm making a sausage-meatball tomato sauce, and it needs attention (Discipline, again!). Think about this and let me hear back.
Mmmmm sausage-meatball sauce.

Id love to blame my father, may he rest in peace. He was not the bastion of self discipline in certain respects. (He would go to the supermarket and buy 2 one-half gallons of ice cream. One for his 3 sons and one for himself to devour.) But, he was the greatest father would loved his wife and kids above all else. The love of ice cream and his family are not mutually exclusive.

I cant go through my whole life in that cycle which is precisely what my last several months has been like. I cannot be with my family then get an image and start that darn thing spinning.

Maybe thats what that "time will heal" concept will accomplish, that I can remove the costly, wasteful, and ultimately fruitless four elements of the trigger cycle?

No. It can happen today with a even a modicum of self discipline.

I need more study of your cycle theory. Its in the 'react to trigger innapropriately' phase where I fall mightily. How do I react better and move to dismissing it when I still want answers as to why and how?

She has engaged (probably appropriately so) in a steady campaign of complete silence when it comes to anything regarding the A. In the glass half-full world, I should be glad because if she were to be still caught up in that world by referring to it or, heaven forbid, pining for it, we'd have a whole other set of problems. Its so amazing to me and a source of my continued issues that she seems to have erased a whole long period of time in her life. I told her so in a letter last month that her ability to not have any interest in 1) my unanswered questions, and 2) saying anything at all about the A was a very compelling part of her being.

So, NG, Mrs. mss, has shown the discipline of a seasoned military professional that her husband lacks. I wish I could be more like her in many ways. And, Id like to be nothing like her in many ways.

I am changing my tag line today to the preferred trigger cycle of NG.

Hope the sauce comes out good today.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Mmmmm sausage-meatball sauce.

Id love to blame my father, may he rest in peace. He was not the bastion of self discipline in certain respects. (He would go to the supermarket and buy 2 one-half gallons of ice cream. One for his 3 sons and one for himself to devour.) But, he was the greatest father would loved his wife and kids above all else. The love of ice cream and his family are not mutually exclusive.

I cant go through my whole life in that cycle which is precisely what my last several months has been like. I cannot be with my family then get an image and start that darn thing spinning.

Maybe thats what that "time will heal" concept will accomplish, that I can remove the costly, wasteful, and ultimately fruitless four elements of the trigger cycle?

No. It can happen today with a even a modicum of self discipline.

I need more study of your cycle theory. Its in the 'react to trigger innapropriately' phase where I fall mightily. How do I react better and move to dismissing it when I still want answers as to why and how?

She has engaged (probably appropriately so) in a steady campaign of complete silence when it comes to anything regarding the A. In the glass half-full world, I should be glad because if she were to be still caught up in that world by referring to it or, heaven forbid, pining for it, we'd have a whole other set of problems. Its so amazing to me and a source of my continued issues that she seems to have erased a whole long period of time in her life. I told her so in a letter last month that her ability to not have any interest in 1) my unanswered questions, and 2) saying anything at all about the A was a very compelling part of her being.

So, NG, Mrs. mss, has shown the discipline of a seasoned military professional that her husband lacks. I wish I could be more like her in many ways. And, Id like to be nothing like her in many ways.

I am changing my tag line today to the preferred trigger cycle of NG.

Hope the sauce comes out good today.



Mike,

All good stuff from NG and HHH. I would add one more thing to it... It's the pre-cycle discipline... Analyze.

You have to be able to identify some triggers BEFORE they happen, so you can prepare for them and work to eliminate them before they happen. It can be done. It's hard, but doable. Holidays for example... Prepping yourself for parties, knowing some fool will be there making a smart comment and getting your head straight so you don't spiral.

Disciplining yourself so you aren't dwelling on these things, but immediately move on to another conversation, thought, action. This will reduce the amount of triggers, and then as you begin doing what NG suggests, you aren't dealing with a whole load of poo, just a little.

Remember, stored memory has emotions tied to them. It takes about 90 seconds for the brain to access the emotion part of the memory, and this is what causes a trigger. A word, smell, sight, whatever sparks an association and your brain recalls a memory and if you think on it long enough the emotion is recalled.

That gives you about 90 seconds to redirect your thoughts to something productive.
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager


Mike,

All good stuff from NG and HHH. I would add one more thing to it... It's the pre-cycle discipline... Analyze.

You have to be able to identify some triggers BEFORE they happen, so you can prepare for them and work to eliminate them before they happen. It can be done. It's hard, but doable. Holidays for example... Prepping yourself for parties, knowing some fool will be there making a smart comment and getting your head straight so you don't spiral.

Disciplining yourself so you aren't dwelling on these things, but immediately move on to another conversation, thought, action. This will reduce the amount of triggers, and then as you begin doing what NG suggests, you aren't dealing with a whole load of poo, just a little.

Remember, stored memory has emotions tied to them. It takes about 90 seconds for the brain to access the emotion part of the memory, and this is what causes a trigger. A word, smell, sight, whatever sparks an association and your brain recalls a memory and if you think on it long enough the emotion is recalled.

That gives you about 90 seconds to redirect your thoughts to something productive.



Just as a PS... This is why we are pushing so hard on continued contact with OMW, POJA and other things.

PPS. You can overcome triggers by having stronger memory associations than the current trigger. Takes time, takes repetition...
I hear you clearly.

We are committed to this thing.

Wrote her an email this morning as I do my best in writing.

I told her about the NG trigger cycle vs. the trigger cycle Ive been riding. I told her I was impressed with her discipline to ignore my silent treatments and brow beatings and maintain her focus. As she knows no matter what detail, however mild, will most likely get me nuts.

I told her about how I will be trying to minimize the trigger to end of trigger continuum.

I gave her a description of my current trigger scenario using NG's mss' trigger time line and using a trigger I had just yesterday. I described something I see in my head all the time that I visualize with limited info from her and from OMW. Didnt get graphic and didnt insult. Then I went into how I let this image fester, I go into a funk, I then put her and the kids on edge, I let the images go away, let her show me and remind me she;s mine, and end of cycle.

I promised her I would do all to remove almost all of that needless middle parts.

I told her it would go like this: see her with him, understand she is sorry and regrets every minute, and is with me.

She quickly replied that she doesnt know what to do with that silent anger I have. Is she to hold me, is she to initiate SF, is she to talk to me, is she ignore me? Most people tend to ignore a person in that condition as she does.

She said she doesnt talk about the A in any fashion becasue the embarassment is beyond anything she can deal with. She is hoping by improving the areas she failed at would overcome my need to know anything more about what she did.

And, when I go into the aforementioned anger funks it gets her so scared that I may demand to know some of the icky details she is dreading to even recall. She told me there is nothing more I dont know about. She cant give me a minute by minute account of the affair because she remembers so little.

It was the worst time in her life where she nearly lost everything in her life that meant something. She thanks a higher power that Im who I am and gave her the chance to reclaim her family.

She had to walk into work.

We are going on the long family trip next week and would love it if I could leave any anger at her at home. She promised she would make it a trip I never forget.

Trigger, analyze, then F-U to the trigger.
Mike, did you listed to the clip from the 2/6 radio show that Melody posted here ? I just had a chance to listen this morning, and made some notes:

Originally Posted By: Radio Show 2/6 on Resentment After an Affair

- Must make a decision to either stay M or D
- Question: Are you willing to restore the love that was in your M?
- If you make the decision to stay M - you must get on board (both parties must get on board)
- No middle ground of "I'll stay M to you, but I'm not going to feel good about it."
- Without a plan, resentment will go on forever.
- Question: Have you learned how to meet ENs? Overcome LBs? Use POJA?
- If so, you will be in love...and when you are in love, the resentment will fade away
- EPs do come first, but EPs don't create romantic love, they just make affairs impossible


I follow your posts, Mike, but I often hesitate to post to you b/c I see so much of broken (my BH) in your words. Reading your words helps me to better understand what he has gone through/is going through. It's difficult to read your posts sometimes, because the rawness of your words, the anger you feel, I can all too easily imagine broken saying those words to me. And a part of me wonders if maybe it's better that he and I barely speak at all.

But then I look to the emptiness in my own heart, and I know that's not true. I don't want to live like roommates, and just be cordial to each other. It's ironic that I, who was such an accomplished liar, who completely and utterly trashed the virtue of honesty during my A and for several months after, now feel so alone and empty because I feel like I don't have openness and honesty from broken.

All I can say is that as a remorseful FWW, if broken would let me closer than arms' length, I'd love him to pieces. I don't know your FWW, but from what you write, she sounds remorseful and committed to rebuilding your M, and I for one am pulling for you to defeat your demons.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I hear you clearly.

We are committed to this thing.

Wrote her an email this morning as I do my best in writing.

I told her about the NG trigger cycle vs. the trigger cycle Ive been riding. I told her I was impressed with her discipline to ignore my silent treatments and brow beatings and maintain her focus. As she knows no matter what detail, however mild, will most likely get me nuts.

I told her about how I will be trying to minimize the trigger to end of trigger continuum.

I gave her a description of my current trigger scenario using NG's mss' trigger time line and using a trigger I had just yesterday. I described something I see in my head all the time that I visualize with limited info from her and from OMW. Didnt get graphic and didnt insult. Then I went into how I let this image fester, I go into a funk, I then put her and the kids on edge, I let the images go away, let her show me and remind me she;s mine, and end of cycle.

I promised her I would do all to remove almost all of that needless middle parts.

I told her it would go like this: see her with him, understand she is sorry and regrets every minute, and is with me.

She quickly replied that she doesnt know what to do with that silent anger I have. Is she to hold me, is she to initiate SF, is she to talk to me, is she ignore me? Most people tend to ignore a person in that condition as she does.

She said she doesnt talk about the A in any fashion becasue the embarassment is beyond anything she can deal with. She is hoping by improving the areas she failed at would overcome my need to know anything more about what she did.

And, when I go into the aforementioned anger funks it gets her so scared that I may demand to know some of the icky details she is dreading to even recall. She told me there is nothing more I dont know about. She cant give me a minute by minute account of the affair because she remembers so little.

It was the worst time in her life where she nearly lost everything in her life that meant something. She thanks a higher power that Im who I am and gave her the chance to reclaim her family.

She had to walk into work.

We are going on the long family trip next week and would love it if I could leave any anger at her at home. She promised she would make it a trip I never forget.

Trigger, analyze, then F-U to the trigger.


Good deal Mike. only thing I would change would be that you may have to simply think of something else until you get accustomed to diverting the trigger. You will know if you do or not. Think of football or something..

You did good encouraging her and she did good being O and H

CV

WG-

When I go back and re-read my posts I, too, cant believe the language I use referring to her or to acts she did or anything pertaining to the affair.

I think it makes me feel good to get a chance to degrade her HERE because I agreed to not AO or degrade her verbally.

I did not listen to the clip, but I read some of the commentary and I certainly know about having a plan and the pitfalls of not having one.

I used to subscribe to the irrational school of thought (and it was asked about recently here) that I could buy my time at home so not to make my home a broken home and upon my youngest leaving for college, I "will dump this ungrateful, piece of garbage b---" first chance then. Id even envisioned having the D papers already for stamping by the courts.

I have scratched any notion of this as its remarkably short sighted. I may as well leave today while Im in my best physical shape and health and earning a decent living and go look for suitable monogamous relationships. And maybe one will be good enough to not cheat on me. Ive thrown out that concept a while ago in favor of making what I got work.


Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
But then I look to the emptiness in my own heart, and I know that's not true. I don't want to live like roommates, and just be cordial to each other. It's ironic that I, who was such an accomplished liar, who completely and utterly trashed the virtue of honesty during my A and for several months after, now feel so alone and empty because I feel like I don't have openness and honesty from broken.

All I can say is that as a remorseful FWW, if broken would let me closer than arms' length, I'd love him to pieces. I don't know your FWW, but from what you write, she sounds remorseful and committed to rebuilding your M, and I for one am pulling for you to defeat your demons.


I read your posts too and my wife doesnt write her feelings (nor does she explain them too often) so I use yours and others' words in her place. What you said here is exactly what I believe my wife hopes for.

She wants me to let her in because she wants in. And I know and I read between your lines, once in you and my wife are allowed in you both are ready, willing, and able to help us have that marriage we probably never really had.

Regarding the other MB 'must-dos', i will say I have not done them to the extent necessary for sucess and its my fault. Im harboring an anger that gets in the way. I working on corraling this anger as youve ready today.

She has met every EN I have ever asked for. Protection from hurt, more sex, affection, and honesty. She has asked of me to be affectionate to her, increase conversation, financial security, and recreational companionship. I have done a great deal of this despite an underlying animosity.

We've built the foundation and I can say its only solid because she has been a rock throughout the recovery. Steadfast in her dedication to making things right. Im very proud of her. Me, my effort to date is lopsided at best.

Im certainly not telling you anything you dont know already.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/09/12 08:33 PM
The sauce is delicious, Mike! As was lunch with my dear friend (the one who saved my life during the dark days.)

Anyway, CV tangentially raised an issue that I intended to later, so now is a good time. You apparently are burdened with the curse of thinking too much. This has several implications. One of those is that eventually, you have the potential to be a great addition to the roster of posting advisers here. (But there is time for that in the future.) Another facet of this element is your dismaying ability to create linkages where NO ONE else would. You detect a trigger by patronizing a restaurant NEAR a restaurant, where POSOM went WITH HIS FAMILY? Wow! Are you somehow worried that Chef Wun Hung Low secretly lusted after your wife? Not likely, dude.

If, however, you are prone to that level of creativity, you should examine all possible linkages and purge them now, on spec. What will you do on seeing a camera-equipped cell phone like POSOM used? Or seeing a piece of jewelry like one of the ones tainted? You will someday meet a man with the same first name as POSOM - spitting in his face, and throttling him, would be inadvisable.

Eventually, the "Analyze trigger" step will be second nature, where it revolves around the questions, "Does this materially, or only coincidentally, have connection with my marital situation, and if materially, is it future-related, or historically linked?" Only those items (and I'll bet there are NONE!) that pass both screens have to be dealt with further.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/10/12 11:42 AM
- Me being hardheaded -


Discipline is not enough. Discipline relies on will. Will is limited.

Discipline is applied in this manner and this manner only; creating habits which create and maintain Romantic Love and Extraordinary Precautions (from BOTH spouses, Mike!) within the marriage.

Habits are carried out like second nature. It's like driving to work. You do it so often and so naturally, that sometimes you don't remember have the drive. Why? Because the actions of driving to work are written into your mind and body so well, you no longer think about it, you just do it.

Meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, PoJA, PoRH, UA... natural, like you've been doing it all of your life.

When those things require DISCIPLINE to do, it's time to reexamine and make sure you are following PoJA and PoRH.
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
- Me being hardheaded -


Discipline is not enough. Discipline relies on will. Will is limited.

Discipline is applied in this manner and this manner only; creating habits which create and maintain Romantic Love and Extraordinary Precautions (from BOTH spouses, Mike!) within the marriage.

Habits are carried out like second nature. It's like driving to work. You do it so often and so naturally, that sometimes you don't remember have the drive. Why? Because the actions of driving to work are written into your mind and body so well, you no longer think about it, you just do it.

Meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, PoJA, PoRH, UA... natural, like you've been doing it all of your life.

When those things require DISCIPLINE to do, it's time to reexamine and make sure you are following PoJA and PoRH.


How can I really disagree with this since I see discipline as creating habits? grin
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/10/12 01:06 PM
...I see discipline as creating habits...

You beat me to it, CV. Trip, you and I are not in opposition as to concepts. My goal was to get MSS's ball rolling. I'll let the nature of the human mind do its magic.

Eventually, the "Analyze trigger" step will be second nature...

For the instigation, YES, we would require the utility of conscious will. You and I have the full (unconscious) ability of bipedal motion. My grandson took his first steps last month. No time was wasted pointing out that someday he'll want to run marathons like his mom and dad, so that's the reason to put one foot in front of the other.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/10/12 01:18 PM
You apparently are burdened with the curse of thinking too much.

NG,

As this has been my problem far too often as well, just wanted to thank you for your post.

Along with MSS, I will be heeding your advice.

Thank you.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/10/12 02:15 PM
Mike,

I'm glad to read that you are letting go of the "biding my time" attitude. Quite frankly, I don't think recovery happens too often with that mindset. In some cases it might work - the attitude changes over time - but more often than not, it doesn't. Because you're holding onto one thing (the anger) you can't grasp onto another. It's the "we're in this together" attitude that keeps me strong in my trigger moments.

I'm cursed with the "thinking too much" mind too. I literally have to force my mind elsewhere at times. I truly think deciding to go back and finish my degree has been crucial to my not ending up in the nuthouse over all this! Because I tend to be the overachieving type, I insist on having the highest average in my classes and thus, I bury my head in books a lot! Forcing my brain to grasp hard concepts and information from my classes means there's no room to focus on the A.

Not everyone has the need or desire to go back to school - but hey - maybe it's a good time to learn a new skill or take up a new hobby.
Originally Posted By: helpfordad
You apparently are burdened with the curse of thinking too much.

NG,

As this has been my problem far too often as well, just wanted to thank you for your post.

Along with MSS, I will be heeding your advice.

Thank you.


I feel and bet most of us that walk in our shoes have had a feeling of being alone in the world.

That what was always there and true may not actually be so.

All we got is our thoughts whether rational or not.

Another thing a great FWS like mine has done has made sure Im not alone. Its when Im in a mood that she'll back off and that loneliness becomes intense. She really cant win. Comfort me when Im angry and risk getting into an bad mood herself or ignore me as to stay clear of my mood and exasperate my anxiety.

Hey, its Friday, weekend eve, Im getting my mood up and enjoying whats mine.

Thanks all for a good week of advice.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/10/12 06:23 PM
MSS,

Two things I've noticed with my W:

1.she gets down at times herself, not only becasue of what she's done, but becasue she says to me: "when you're having a 'moment', I can see it in your eyes...and I know I'm the one who casued it.." That alone -- HER pain, HER healing -- is motivation enough for me to try to do a better job NOT overthinking this any longer

2. W is now very protective, almost needy, of me....in that she does not like me being away from her for very long. One, she has expressed a high level of vulnerability in that I have a legit 'out' of this marriage -- one that she does not ever want me to use (nor will I. It's actually weird for me to think she's afraid that I will leave her for someone who hasn't cheated on me, the kids). Two, she expresses how much my strength, my care, me gentleness has not only carried our family during all of this, but also her, personally, as she has mourned, cried, pleaded, processed, etc. and couldn't 'rehabilitate' without me.


It's such a paradox at times.

Thanks.
Originally Posted By: helpfordad
.


It's such a paradox at times.





Ain't that the truth?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/11/12 03:54 PM
HER pain, HER healing is motivation enough for me to try to do a better job...she has expressed a high level of vulnerability in that I have a legit 'out' of this marriage... she expresses how much my strength, my care, me gentleness has not only carried our family during all of this, but also her, personally...she couldn't 'rehabilitate' without me.

Dude, you call this a "paradox"??

I might call it the greatest spur to testosterone production imaginable.
Get the cape, and the latex jumpsuit, HFD...



..you are "Hero-Dad"!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/11/12 07:32 PM
NG,

How'd you find my senior yearbook photo?

Thanks, my friend!
The Valentine's Day card issue was interesting. Spent an inordinate amount of time looking for a card the other day. Nothing quite says, 'you screwed up but Im working on forgiving you' just the way it needs to be said.

But I found one I was happy with.

This morning she ran the boy to school early for band practice and came home and I was still sleeping. She had a card that looked like it written by a remorse-filled WS and it was perfect. She woke me with the card and...well...lets just say she was wearing something I got her for those special alone times.

Not a bad Tuesday morning.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/14/12 04:11 PM
No wonder this guy is still smiling.
If flakiness was a country, Id be China.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/27/12 05:57 PM
Not smart enough to understand your flake/china.
flake

n. An unreliable person; someone who agrees to do something, but never follows through.


Pertaining to my agreement to not bring up the A with my wife and my subsequent bringing up of such. Flakey.

And China being a large country refers to my LARGE inability to not bring up the A.

Got it?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/27/12 06:53 PM
Have to call you on being a little flakey.

Spending good money and using vacation time is not using such time and finacial resources wisely.

Being on vacation for a week does not mean you won't have triggers. Just calls on you to put talking about them on hold till vacation is over.

People put on a stiff upper lip for many a dire need.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 02/28/12 01:10 PM
Quote:
Indifference.

We took a long road trip as a family last week (over 20 hrs in the car each way) and I had moments where I stewed over the A and didnt do a good job of hiding it. The kids didnt see it, but she sure did. We had a bad evening on the vacation when I chose to bring up the A. And, again on the way home, I had bad moments of muted anger.

She asked me if I hated her. I said I never hated her but hated what she did, how long she did it, how many times she did it, and why she did it.

She asked me if I was leaving her. I said I dont know. Im still angry 9 months later and dont want to spend the rest of my life angry. I told her that leaving probably wont end my anger so it would be better to stay and learn to accept what happened.

She told me that she would understand if I left and she did not deserve me. She begged me not to though. That she regrets the lifelong pain she has given me and herself. She has nothing to show for it but a wounded man and little dignity.

She said she feels my anger and anxiety but has learned to roll with it. SHE THEN SAID SOMETHING I DIDNT EXPECT: if I didnt have the anger and anxiety then she would be concerned about apathy and indifference. The anger tells her Im battling thru the images of her A and she has hope I will fully forgive her someday.

I did apologize to her about bringing up the A. We messed around a whole bunch on vacation and that always makes things better for me.

I guess, WG, indifference might be a phase I may enter at some point. And, I think she'll have the feelings you describe if I do.

By the way, I spent too much time thinking about running into OM somewhere and breaking his nose. Not for doing my wife, she was fully compliant and responsible for her actions. But for entering my childrens life and choosing to stay there while dating their mother. That is really the essence of my anger at him.


I did read this on WPG's thread yesterday, Mike. I took until today to respond. Can you guess why?

Okay, which principle shall we review?

1 - Your FWW did nothing recently to hurt you, betray you, or dishonor your marriage.
2 - Your treatment of her is damaging to her. She may not show it (Strong girl!) but you're scoring hits every time.
3 - These outbreaks are forestalling, and endangering, your personal possible(?) recovery and future happiness.

No, let's not.

Let me open a new line of consideration.

DRIVING for long periods is a disaster for someone with your unmanageable thought-processes. It requires a level of attention that precludes more overt distractions (reading, etc), but not enough to totally obstruct idle wanderings. (Try to imagine thinking of OM if you were defusing a bomb.) Next time the possibility exists of twenty-hour drives, fly, or don't go. Mickey and Minnie (?) don't need your money that much!

Here's a corollary. Do you have a lawn-covered yard, requiring extensive time to mow? GET A LAWN SERVICE! I used to have the worst times while using my lawn-tractor, until I unearthed a study showing that the smell of freshly-cut grass is a powerful spur to MEMORY and IMAGINATION! Exactly what I didn't, and you (seemingly forever) will not, need.

Keep plugging ahead, dude.
My wife is going to some mental trauma lately. Feeling pressure from different places (not just me).

She called our boy "dumb" when he had difficulty this morning answering what i thought was a pretty simple question and he got real mad. He said he hates her as did our daughter the other day and it kind of came to a head today.

She IM'd during work that she in the bathroom crying that she ruined our family and she cant do anything right.

I puts me into an interesting situation that I could have taken in 1 of 2 ways. I could agree and say imagine how worse it could be if I left her. Or, I could soothe her and help her thru a bad pre-menstrual situation with kind words.

Despite in a low mood period myself I chose the latter. Told her that her kids love her more than anything. I told her no one in this house hates her. That she needs to continue forgiving herself for bad decisions and helping me thru this lousy situation. I told her that we cant change the past and Im only damaged and things damaged usually can be fixed.

Its pretty hard to be the nice guy when in reality I want to rub salt in her open wounds at times. Maybe Im securing my cozy space in heaven by trying to rise above this? Maybe Im expecting too much from her and she's simple and got carried away by a predator and as she said lately, she was manipulated?

Whatever it is, this whole thing has really distracted me from my business which in a down economy is least opportune for it to happen. Plus, in a big way, I feel her insisting to remain her boyfriends "assistant" for all those years contributed to our fiscal malaise when persuing a real job and career might have avoided a lot of our troubles.

Anyway, Im rambling today.

I had the boy hug and kiss his mommy just before after he got home from school. And Ill have my little girl do the same. Maybe Ill find it in me to do the same as well?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/01/12 09:17 PM
I always used an analogy to a knee injury when NGB would spin into pity parties;

What you did caused irreparable damage. Neither of us will ever be the same.

It's like blowing out your knee. You will never again use that leg the way you used to, and if you try to all you will do is make it worse and worse as time goes on.

The solution is to strengthen everything around the injury, and learn to walk differently. Eventually, you may even walk better than before - different, but better.

You build strength surrounding the injury to compensate and protect.


It will never be the "same." And it HAS to be better.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/01/12 09:56 PM
Sometimes I've wished to see more of the what-have-I-done attitude from my H in regards to his affair - thinking it would REALLY show how remorseful he is. But, from what I'm seeing, it doesn't really help anything, does it? Doesn't seem to make anyone feel better and isn't especially productive.

I hope your wife apologized to your son for calling him dumb. frown We ALL make parenting mistakes - FWSs and FBSs alike. The important thing is to make amends, just like when we make marital mistakes.

Good for you for not blasting your wife when you felt like it! It's important to always be genuine in any kind of encouragement - it was nice that you found it in you to be kind.

I definitely agree with keeping your mind busy! I posted on another thread earlier how bad Fridays used to be for me because it was the one day I was alone a lot with my thoughts. Important to keep your brain busy.
Oh, geez, look what I did, I made someone really mad at me.

Couldnt care less about what you think.

I come here to confess and if you dont like it, tough.

And, by the way, her recent venture in "self mutilation" had more to do with an episode she had with our son as it did with my efforts.

In fact, after better than 9 months of me giving her misery she had not once done any damage to herself. Its only when she has a blowout with Jr. that she does. What does that say?

Its says something to the effect that she's pretty confident that no matter what I say or do that Im not going anywhere and that her kids forgiving and loving her is at her utmost concern. Im secondary. Always have been.

That what it says.

Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Oh, geez, look what I did, I made someone really mad at me.

Couldnt care less about what you think.

I come here to confess and if you dont like it, tough.

And, by the way, her recent venture in "self mutilation" had more to do with an episode she had with our son as it did with my efforts.

In fact, after better than 9 months of me giving her misery she had not once done any damage to herself. Its only when she has a blowout with Jr. that she does. What does that say?

Its says something to the effect that she's pretty confident that no matter what I say or do that Im not going anywhere and that her kids forgiving and loving her is at her utmost concern. Im secondary. Always have been.

That what it says.



Mike,

I seem to remember you posting on another thread several months back that your wife was struggling with suicidal thoughts (cutting?)? Am I wrong?

I'm sorry, but if you think that you are not contributing to her current state, I believe you are wrong my friend.

CV
Just want to add that suicidal thoughts, self mutilation of any type, etc... Must be taken seriously. They are real cries for help.

CV
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/06/12 06:41 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


Its says something to the effect that she's pretty confident that no matter what I say or do that Im not going anywhere and that her kids forgiving and loving her is at her utmost concern. Im secondary. Always have been.

That what it says.



Hello Mike,

As someone who has seen the same thing in my FWW, I would like to share something with you, if I may.

If she didn't love you and NEED you, she would have taken the kids and left and not suffer your wrath.

In our society, she WOULD have gotten the kids despite the A and child support also.

I have seen it happen over and over.

She is with YOU because she wants to be with you and because you are WORTH suffering for.

The reason she suffers so terribly when she has an outburst with the children is because she knows that you can take it...

and they can't.

God bless.

Jim
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/06/12 08:44 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Oh, geez, look what I did, I made someone really mad at me.

Couldnt care less about what you think.

I come here to confess and if you dont like it, tough.

And, by the way, her recent venture in "self mutilation" had more to do with an episode she had with our son as it did with my efforts.

In fact, after better than 9 months of me giving her misery she had not once done any damage to herself. Its only when she has a blowout with Jr. that she does. What does that say?

Its says something to the effect that she's pretty confident that no matter what I say or do that Im not going anywhere and that her kids forgiving and loving her is at her utmost concern. Im secondary. Always have been.

That what it says.



Are you using the MB Recovery Program in Surviving An Affair?
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
And, by the way, her recent venture in "self mutilation" had more to do with an episode she had with our son as it did with my efforts.

In fact, after better than 9 months of me giving her misery she had not once done any damage to herself. Its only when she has a blowout with Jr. that she does. What does that say?

Its says something to the effect that she's pretty confident that no matter what I say or do that Im not going anywhere and that her kids forgiving and loving her is at her utmost concern. Im secondary. Always have been.

That what it says.



Or it could be a reflection on how a person can only take so much, Mike.

Yes, I know, she was an adulteress. By your accounts, she is not that woman now.

She is a woman struggling with her own demons and losses, and every day she has to look in the mirror and realize that they are self-inflicted. She has no one else to blame for the way her life is turning out.

Just because she has sinned, that does not make her less a human being. Just because you have such intense pain, that doesn't mean she cannot feel pain too. Her pain in no way minimizes yours, please understand I am not saying that!

I cannot speak for your FWW, but I can imagine how she feels. I spent a long, lonely evening not long after H left carving up the inside of my arm once with a screwdriver. One night I purposely went to the store for a bottle of wine and a bottle of sleeping pills. You can be cynical and say that we just felt bad we got caught, but that was not the case for me. I don't believe it is the case for your FWW either.

Behavior like that is a cry for help, for attention, not something to be taken lightly or brushed aside.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/06/12 01:30 PM
Oh, geez, look what I did, I made someone really mad at me.

Not just "one", dude.

I come here to confess and if you dont like it, tough.

No, you came here to bluster, to pontificate. To confess would imply contrition and humility. Arrogance and smug self-satisfaction are antithetical to that concept.

I regret you have embraced the concept of victimhood so ardently. You did not have to.
Mike,

I have written and re-written this several times now, just trying to get the words right here. Maybe I will just go back to my original thoughts...

You're wrong. You are so far afield of recovery right now it's not even funny. What the heck dude? Can you not see that what you are doing is destroying your family? Where do you think your kids get the idea it is ok to continually be ticked at mom? You. You are modeling everything but healing for your family. Right now, you are the agent of destruction.

You are not healing together (that's called recovering your marriage). Heck, you are not even healing separately. You aren't giving her opportunity to heal, you aren't helping your kids heal, you aren't protecting your now FORMER wayward wife (or your kids for that matter).

Mike, you are your own biggest obstacle here. To put it bluntly, you need to get over yourself. You have adopted the same sense of entitlement a wayward does in order to justify your actions and you are lying to yourself about the consequences of it.
Since I on the theme of being blunt here, let me bring something else up that you probably won't like...

I would also posit that at least in part, your wife's preoccupation with "things" (money, gifts, whatever) was either fueled by you, or you have adopted it with this ridiculously stupid notion of getting this blood money. Furthermore it is compounded by your unwillingness to break contact with OMW (whether you have actually done it or not).

It really stinks being cheated on.. I know. So do others here. But let me tell you a secret, one BS to another...

Your entitlement doesn't last forever. You don't get to hold your get out of marriage card forever. You don't get to sit on your free pass the rest of your life... Not if you want to stay married. Not if you want to recover. At some point (and the sooner the better if you want to recover) it's gotta go.

You are pushing your M to the breaking point over and over again. Sooner or later it will break completely.

CV
Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/06/12 03:45 PM
CV, well put.

Mike, when you decided to recover your marriage, to HAVE a good marriage, you signed for this unit: you and her. This is not that she is your W only when you have a good mood or good day, she is your W every day.

Yes, FWS has amends to do to make it up to you and kids. But you are married, in this together, she needs you as much as you need her. When she is cutting herself, she needs help and you are responsible of her well-being not your son. Your unit gives her necessary grounds to deal with kids. If you are not okay how she handles your son or how they treat each other you have to talk to her first and then with the kids, together. Practise POJA.
Mike, I was rushed this morning, and missed a couple things I wanted to say to you.

When my dad died at the end of last August, I remember sitting in the kitchen at my parents' house, and someone (my mother or grandmother, I honestly can't remember) was retelling me a conversation they had overheard, between one of my cousins and an older man from our church. The gist of the conversation was about the oft-quoted saying, "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." The older fellow stated, "Yes, but the good Lord sure likes to load that wagon up sometimes."

I'm not saying that with any sort of religious implication - I'm saying that because it is really freaking hard to pull that wagon on your own - whether it is the one YOU are yoked to, with the pain of your wife's betrayal, or whether it is the one SHE is yoked to.

It is much easier to share the load, and to work together to lighten it.

Mike, if she was "only" guilty, she would not even try to face what she has done. She would not try to recover the M. From your very first post on here, almost a year ago, you said your W had been incredible. Guilt alone is a poor motivator for change. We can feel guilty for doing something, and yet still continue to repeat the behavior. Remorse calls us to reach out to the person we injured and try to make it better; to change our actions and hold ourselves accountable for our actions...not run from the damage we caused.



FWIW, note that there are two paths out of the bubble markeed "Remorse." Take a look at the line drawn to the right of remorse - it is headed, "Inaction."
Quote:
If you feel remorse, yet fail to effectively apologize, and make restitution then you will feel shame and the injured party will remain unsatisfied.

I would posit that you and your W, like my H and I, are in this same spot. Somehow, she and I have failed to effectively apologize or make restitution/just compensation (or to accept, perhaps, that we have done all we can, and no "apology" of words or deeds is sufficient to overcome what we did to our husbands).

Mike, I couldn't NOT post, because from what you related to us, I am worried about your FWW. But you have to look into your heart and decide, once and for all, if her betrayal is something you can not forgive.

I wish the best for you and your FWW.
Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl


I would posit that you and your W, like my H and I, are in this same spot. Somehow, she and I have failed to effectively apologize or make restitution/just compensation (or to accept, perhaps, that we have done all we can, and no "apology" of words or deeds is sufficient to overcome what we did to our husbands).




Yes. However, she has apologized and begged for mercy to no end for 9 months. She has met my major needs in a huge way and I have no complaints in that dept.

I find it impossible to forget about the callous indifference to my feelings she maintained for a very long time. No matter how much sex she gives me and complete and utter transparency she maintains cannot override my anger at her ability to do this to me and our kids.

I then factor in a million other tidbits of her A that she, again, maintained year in, year out that makes having to canoodle and be lovey dovey for 15 hrs/week something I struggle to achieve.

This wasnt a few emails back and forth and some phone sex. This was a physical thing that went on forever. In my face.

I guess I am to think of her as someone who WAS sub-human in her thought process capable of hurting a lot of people but is very sorry and then just move on. I stink at that.

But, Im committed to figuring it out. No matter what has been suggested I do.
By the way, pontificate? Me?

Bluster? Yes. Blow hard? Yes.

Flake? Absolutely.

From the 'pot calling the kettle black' dept, shall we say?
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling


Yes. However, she has apologized and begged for mercy to no end for 9 months. She has met my major needs in a huge way and I have no complaints in that dept.

So she is doing just about everything she is supposed to be doing.

I find it impossible to forget about the callous indifference to my feelings she maintained for a very long time. No matter how much sex she gives me and complete and utter transparency she maintains cannot override my anger at her ability to do this to me and our kids.

I think what you really mean is *forgive*, not forget. Mike I have more than half a feeling that you are feeling this way (angry at her) because she is not the person she was. You are angry because she is remorseful and you have no valid object to throw your anger at (besides OM). In one sense, it really does feel like you lose because you (plural here) WANT to be able to lash out at that adulterous spouse, but she's no longer there. But really, that is pride and not humbleness (note the difference between humbleness and humiliation). Now there is no object for your anger. And the thing is, I really don't see you wanting to let it go. You like being angry I think. Am I right? It is a kind of way to get back at her for doing everything she did to you.

I then factor in a million other tidbits of her A that she, again, maintained year in, year out that makes having to canoodle and be lovey dovey for 15 hrs/week something I struggle to achieve.

Of course it is a struggle. You won't let go of your anger at her. She is working to earn your forgiveness, but you AREN'T working to forgive her.

This wasnt a few emails back and forth and some phone sex. This was a physical thing that went on forever. In my face.

Yep. We know. You harp on this over and over. Mike, we (most)all went through this. Years of lies, sneaking, cheating, betrayal. Wanna hear something really base? My wife was so starved for her dad's affection she slept with 2 guys that reminded her of her dad. Wanna know her major motivation in addition to getting "daddy attention"? She wanted to embarrass her parents. Heckuva way to treat her own husband and kids. But you know what? It's not unique or special or anything. Neither is what your wife did. She is JUST like every other wayward... They ALL pimp themselves out for something. Be it attention, affection or trinkets. At the end of the day, so what... It doesn't matter. What matters is what theya re doing now.

I guess I am to think of her as someone who WAS sub-human in her thought process capable of hurting a lot of people but is very sorry and then just move on. I stink at that.

Yep. That's called recovery... If you can't begin to do that, then you aren't recovering.

CV


Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/14/12 06:43 PM
Saw your note to HFD. It appears the "Dr Jeckyll" version of MSS is back. He's much preferable to the "Mr. Hyde" manifestation.

How have things been progressing, Mike?
Doing well, thanks for asking.

Aside from my inner lunatic making himself known, things are ok.

I will say this one thing this whole deal has done is allow my wife to be hardened to many things, which I have mentioned in the past. On the good side of that is that she lets my crazed moments flow off her like they never happened.

Her friend once described it as she's able to 'take it'. From her mother, friends, OM, and now its me.

Its not a quality I like but seeing as she sometimes claims not to remember a rant I laid on her just the night before it turns out a good defense mechanism against mental stress, I guess. I like to think its how she stayed in her thing when clearly it wasnt so terrific for quite a while.

Im certainly doing what I can to avoid said rants.

I appreciate you asking about things.
I like to think my wife enjoys being with me clothed or unclothed.

I like to think she's on board with me mentally when shes with me physically.

She got pretty mad when I asked her a while back if I was overdoing it or expecting too much SF as compensation for my hurt. She said near the top of her many regrets is denying me that for so long.

She fully understands the smash to a person's manhood that a cheating wife delivers. (Especially hurtful when the OM is about as feminine as a hetero man could get, between us here.)

As a son of my dad who treated women (woman, his wife) like gold I have no ability to hurt my wife physically. (And up until 5/9/11, I never did any mental abuse either.) So, with this renaissance in the bedroom I sometimes ask myself if she is truly 'into' it or 'just compensating'?.

She has never complained. She has never denied me since dday. She has even initiated, God Bless her.

My bruised manhood is recovering due a lot to it.

Why do I need to look this gift horse in the mouth like so many aspects of our recovery??? Im freaking nuts. There's one answer.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/15/12 07:23 PM
Wow, now that I've untangled from MM's thread.....

Its the 'Get of of Jail Free Card' we get to carry. We could go get our own affair going, we could leave, we could brow beat, demand SF, we can do so many things heretofore wasn't part of our existance. What is she going to do?

Complain? Leave? If she's still home than she's going to 'take it'...None of which makes a good marriage. Making her understand she is still an equal in this marriage after her major self-inflicted beat down is crucial.


Your first paragraph above is basically all true for any BS. (In a larger scheme, it's actually true for any human.) The point is similar to a discussion I had with a friend a few years ago buying a new home. He said he had the money to (over)pay for the house, using a "balloon" mortgage, so was of a mind to do so. My admonition to him was that though it was something he could do, it was unlikely something he should do. (Sadly, he did buy the house; it's now in foreclosure proceedings.)

I would apply the same "test" to your situation, Mike. The issue would be even if you could get away with doing those things to FWW, should you, given the ultimate damage of those initiatives to MSS?

You seem to approach the answer in your second paragraph, friend, but still miss one key element. "After her major self-inflicted beat down" is enough damage to try to repair. I would hope you are slowly beginning to understand that any "MSS-inflicted beat down" is tremendously worse.

This cannot happen, Mike. For YOUR sake, as her psyche is permanently part of your living environment, inflicting discomfort on her is foolish. Suck it up, dude. Smile when you're hurting. Be kind when you want to lash out. Even though the mosquito of resentment is biting your arm, swatting it away with the razor-blade of retaliation is...inadvisable. (Dammit, two analogies in one post!)
We were on a date night last night so I nodded, "you're right."

My mother in law called yesterday and warned us to be ready for a funeral for 'Bob' a long time family friend in the final stage of a 5-year battle with cancer. My wife relayed the story on the way to dinner that Bob's cancer has spread to other organs and he has been coughing up blood and has bouts of delirium. When you factor in that Bob's daughter and my wife's friend, 25 years ago, died in car accident, a picture of a family with much sorrow emerges.

After a minute of quiet contemplation, my wife said "at least our problems can be fixed".

I nodded, "you're right".

However, I couldn't help think to myself Bob and his wife didnt CHOOSE cancer and the untimely death of their teenager as my wife did choose her adultery. I didn't find the comparison fair.

I nodded, "you're right" because part of the results of her A is neutered conversation. Having a nice dinner trumped my real thoughts.

(she did decide to not go to dinner at a place about a mile from OM house that later she told me she believed going there and being as close as it was would trigger me. I told her I was thinking about their fried clams since 10am. But she has seen my triggered moods and was being proactive.)
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/25/12 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
(she did decide to not go to dinner at a place about a mile from OM house that later she told me she believed going there and being as close as it was would trigger me. I told her I was thinking about their fried clams since 10am. But she has seen my triggered moods and was being proactive.)


Another example of why Doc H recommends moving far away from the OM.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/25/12 09:05 PM
After a minute of quiet contemplation, my wife said "at least our problems can be fixed". I nodded, "you're right".

Success, Mike, is a measure not of where we are, but of how far we have come.

So, Professor NG will give you a grade of "B" on this.

An "A" grade would have been to
  • actually believe, and
  • follow up with,
something like, "...and not only CAN be fixed, but WILL be fixed!"

How was the rest of your weekend?
Ill take a "B".

Could have devolved into a failing grade so easily but I held my tongue.

The 'at least we have our health' credo misses the mark with me as Im so mentally and physically damaged by all this.

-----------

Bob's sickness means my in-laws were going to move up their Holiday visit north by a couple a weeks and guess who they stay with the entire time? Not a fun prospect.

Turns out Bob has taken a turn for the better and doctors are confident he'll be around for a several months more. The in-laws are keeping their original travel plans. Still a 10 day stay at Chez MSS.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/26/12 12:38 PM
...Im so mentally and physically damaged by all this.

Yes, but "at least (your) problems can be fixed", and FWW seems fully enlisted in fixing them.

Bury the past, dude. Improve the future. The faster you can complete the first and concentrate on the second, the less pain you'll suffer.
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
...Im so mentally and physically damaged by all this.

Yes, but "at least (your) problems can be fixed", and FWW seems fully enlisted in fixing them.

Bury the past, dude. Improve the future. The faster you can complete the first and concentrate on the second, the less pain you'll suffer.


"You're right."
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/26/12 02:31 PM
I am confident that one of the reasons recovery has gone pretty smoothly in my situation is in burying the past. Oh, we've had ups and downs and Lord only knows it hasn't been perfection - is it ever? But, I find we are always better served by holding our tongues when it comes to the A or to OW.

The ironic part of that is at first, I thought we were "wrong" in not talking about it. I thought we were "avoiding" and that it was a bad thing. (Obviously I mean AFTER all the truth had come out.) H and I are both conflict avoiders to a large extent and I worried that we needed to be talking about things in order to heal. As it turns out, Dr. H recommends not bringing it up - even triggers - and I was a bit shocked by that. In our case we hadn't done much of that anyway but all that time I had been thinking we needed to be talking more. Nope!

Obviously you have to get the truth all out and the unfaithful spouse needs to understand the hurt caused, etc... But really, bringing it up - bringing the past into the present - doesn't solve a thing: it just keeps you hurting. Every time you mention the AP - or anything having to do with the A - you just smack yourself over the head with a big huge hammer and bruise yourself further.

There have been times when I wanted to lash out at my H and felt it very unfair that I *couldn't* just let loose on him because my grief is his fault. I just keep reminding myself that it is for my own benefit that I keep my mouth shut. (Because believe me, during those moments when I want to lash out I'm not thinking of benefiting him!)

Looking back, even in the few times that I've brought up a trigger - however calmly - I can see that it did not benefit me. I didn't feel better because of it. I turned what might have been a 15 minute down period into HOURS.

It might be different if there was some healing power of discussing it but there just isn't in a lot of ways. What can you change? Nothing. It mentally puts you right back into the land of misery - recapturing the bad feelings of when they were wayward. If you're doing the MB program you've already learned the lesson of where things went wrong and are working at improving those things every day - so - you won't be enlightened anymore by further discussion of events that occurred. Also, for me - when I allow myself to dig in the past I find my disrespect for my H just multiples 10x - within minutes! That's certainly not healthy for our present or future. And sure - he has to earn that respect now - but why purposely go into pit zone???

It's like my beloved Gators losing Saturday - missing out on the Final Four in a game they had in hand: I hurt a lot less when I stay away from sports pages or ESPN rather than dwelling on it. Why wallow?

OK - I know that's lame... but just trying to bring a moment of levity. smile
I just didnt want her affair to be, in any way, shape, or form, to be construed as similar to a person stricken by cancer.

Two different family trajedies. One chosen, one not.

One avoidable, one not.

The only similarities are the innocent victims will live forever with the (crappy) memories.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/26/12 03:05 PM
Great post -- thanks, Sunny.

It addressed alot of what's been on my mind as well (and there's A LOT going on up there right now).

Thanks!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/26/12 03:16 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I just didnt want her affair to be, in any way, shape, or form, to be construed as similar to a person stricken by cancer.

Two different family trajedies. One chosen, one not.

One avoidable, one not.

The only similarities are the innocent victims will live forever with the (crappy) memories.


I can certainly see that. And you know what? You would've been better served had your wife not alluded to the past by her statement. Why even mention "problems"??? While it was not a direct mention of the A, it certainly took you RIGHT there, didn't it - regardless of how subtle a comment it was!

The abstaining from talking of the past is on her as well as on you. BOTH of you need to focus on here and now.

It is hard to control everything that pops out of your mouth but if you make it a practice to only focus on being productive in the marriage - and on the present and future - those little things will take care of themselves.
I agree with everything you say. Here and now.

Things have been terrific here nonetheless. And, dinner was great.
Didnt want to hijack another thread but I like this quote and had me thinking today:

Quote:

It helps when I remember that the A - even if it was "exciting" (as we all know they are because they're not based in reality) had a huge downside as well: not just in the repercussions, but in the actual moments of the A. All that supposed excitement came with guilt, fear of being caught, and shame. And I can't imagine that the excitement retains any of its luster having now gone through the repercussions!



This is something I try my hardest to think of when Im feeling the heat rush of anger and anxiety. What, in my case, really drives home this concept is the sheer patheticness of my wife remaining in this thing AFTER the excitement of the initial timeframe wore off. And, I know very well that the embarassment of it all has taken a toll on her since dday.

Getting caught brought on some of worst thoughts of guilt and shame on her ESPECIALLY since she admits (and I kind of knew as I look back) that she didnt want to be around him at a certain point but was unable to leave. She has to live with not only the standard stuff of a caught adulterer but the mental load of being under the grip of another person. Of being blind to reality and capable of destruction at the highest levels.

Lately, I try to angle my anger in light of all this. Combined with her strict adherence to all things a great marriage has, I find I can realign my thoughts most times.

Bottom line is that she doesnt spend a second thinking about what was. She lives in the now and what will be. She handles my momentary and becoming less and less bouts of anger and frustration by ignoring them and not giving them attention they DON'T deserve. And by not uttering a word about her prior life it doesnt lend even the slightest implication that it matters to her today. (Sometimes, I feel like the A didnt matter to her when she was in it!! It just was. Yuck.) It was what it was: a collossal mistake, nothing more.

I like to think that the emotions she lives with today completely obstruct the best of times she had then. Perhaps this is why she can claim she doesnt recall details when I asked about them a while back. Lets go with that.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/27/12 03:49 PM
Good thoughts, Mike!

Who would WANT to recall those details about something that is now so repulsive?!!!!
To illustrate just how far Ive come, to wit:

(Or twit, you choose.)

Text conversation from earlier:

me: How's your haircut? (New person cutting her hair.)

her: Nice (picture included in text)

me: Oh, its nice. Different. I like it.

her: Its a 'side-bang', never had that before.

me: It's very nice.

The old mss would have jumped on that 'side-bang' comment with a crude, albeit funny only to me, but crude and ultimately hurtful comment.

I opted to bring it here instead. Even in my darkest hour I can find a little humor. Maybe very little.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/27/12 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I just didnt want her affair to be, in any way, shape, or form, to be construed as similar to a person stricken by cancer.

Two different family trajedies. One chosen, one not.

One avoidable, one not.

The only similarities are the innocent victims will live forever with the (crappy) memories.



Hardly.

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here, sir.


Both of them do involve a choice - the choice to move forward, the choice to recover.

And here is a major difference;

Try telling anybody at all that you are divorcing your spouse because they have cancer.


Anger clouds you, young padawan.
Wrong.

Cancer created the anguish within that other family.

Adultery created the anguish within mine.

One is avoidable, the other not.

There is no choice with cancer. Once the victim dies, you move on but you have no choice if it hits you.

She had a millions of opportunities to avoid an affair, but CHOSE none of them. ONLY I HAVE THE CHOICE TO ACCEPT THE PATH TO RECOVERY.

Sorry.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 03/27/12 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Wrong.

Cancer created the anguish within that other family.

Adultery created the anguish within mine.

One is avoidable, the other not.

There is no choice with cancer. Once the victim dies, you move on but you have no choice if it hits you.

She had a millions of opportunities to avoid an affair, but CHOSE none of them. ONLY I HAVE THE CHOICE TO ACCEPT THE PATH TO RECOVERY.

Sorry.



And you both make the choice to recover. You both make the choice to move forward.


Of course, I have the perspective of reading your post, and then hearing the pain of a wife whose husband is a quad because of a work accident.

Of course, in our selfishness, we don't think about that, do we?

Though, I have to face it. It's my daily work.


My wife chose to have an affair. She has chosen to do the work to provide just compensation. I have a marriage that is better than it was before the affair.

My wife made both of those choices.


This man? Did not choose to have an apple bin fall on his head and break his neck, paralyzing him from the chest down, but both he and his wife now bear those consequences.



And you, Mike? You choose every day to drag that weight instead of carrying it. You choose every time to brandish like a weapon. That is the choice you make. You choose anger. You choose rage.

That is the choice you are making.

The anguish associated with a life-chaning illness or injury is the total loss of hope.

Again, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. While the beginning may differ with choice, the end is the same.

Treat the illness, or don't. Look for hope, or don't. Do the work, or don't.

Make your choice.
Had a funeral near om house today. We then went to a store even closer. In fact this was the parking lot shed leave her car when theyd go out at nite.

She asked if there were any issues. No. Any anger. No.

A male friend we havent seen in a while said to my wife that she looks great and thin. He could get over how nice she looks. She asked me if compliments from men bother me. No. To myself i said compliments are terrific its when they lead to intercourse i have a problem.

But no problems being near the scene of the crime. Just hoped for the remote chance of a run in.
I have chosen to discontinued friendships with many of my long time friends for no other reason than I cant handle the humiliation of what was. Even if a word was never uttered to me by them, the fact that they just know it existed or that they heard an unsubstantiated rumor is too much for me to deal with.

So, when the mother of one of these guys died over the weekend (geez whats up with another death within a couple days of each other?)I know that a chance reunion will happen. This friend is someone Ive know for 20 years. Saw him for breakfast 2 years ago in Florida on vacation and we only emailed each other every six months since and before that. A mutual friend who knows about the A and was one of my best friends at one time (he was OMs partner long ago and its thru him we met OM and OMW) called me to see if I wanted to be picked up to go to the funeral. I am not going to the funeral. OM will not be there, hes not part of that group.

The friend who called to pick me up himself was a WS whose wife divorced him. I used to be somewhat social with him but since I know he knows I no longer want him in my life. Interesting, during the time of their prolonged divorce case, my wife remained friendly with his wife often commiserating about how terrible her husband is. During this time, my wife was doing her thing with her OM. Its not lost on me or my wife that my friend's now ex-wife has not spoken to my wife in months since OMW informed me she told him about the A. There is no doubt my buddy took the opportunity to tell his ex about my wife being as low a POS as he was. Kind of like, "just look who else is a lying, cheating miscreant."

Anyway, my need to end all of my friendships is bumming me out. I just cant face them. I have some pride, not a lot, just some. Enough that facing them is going to be too much embarassment.

I wont tell me wife any of this. This is just more stuff I get to keep crunched in my head next to all the other crap I get to keep silent in there.

I did send my friend a condolence card.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/02/12 05:20 PM
Two things, dude:

1) Eventually, you're going to run out of contacts, if you continue to consign to the no-contact list of your life folks who know/may-know/might-someday-know of the situation that brought you here. You risk ending up like that character in the commercial, shuffling around in your robe and slippers, collecting stray cats. NOT a pretty sight!

2) The shame is not, and never was, yours. Do not flatter yourself by thinking you can atone for it.

...since I know he knows I no longer want him in my life.

But he knows you know of his WW. Maybe he needs you in HIS life. Look, I'm getting into CP and CV territory here, and I'll likely screw it up if I proceed, but the point is we BSs are the most important sounding-boards for each other. Why would that be something that could not aid you in your recovery?
No, he was the wayward with the lovely addition of a being crackhead.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/02/12 05:51 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
collecting stray cats.


T/J I have a stray cat starter kit, if you need it Mike.

And, what's wrong with collecting stray cats? blush You say that like it's a bad thing or not normal!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/03/12 12:14 AM
...he was the wayward...

My bad! I misread your post, obviously.

But the admonition still applies to cutting off contact with the entirety of your circle.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/03/12 03:11 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I have chosen to discontinued friendships with many of my long time friends for no other reason than I cant handle the humiliation of what was. Even if a word was never uttered to me by them, the fact that they just know it existed or that they heard an unsubstantiated rumor is too much for me to deal with.

So, when the mother of one of these guys died over the weekend (geez whats up with another death within a couple days of each other?)I know that a chance reunion will happen. This friend is someone Ive know for 20 years. Saw him for breakfast 2 years ago in Florida on vacation and we only emailed each other every six months since and before that. A mutual friend who knows about the A and was one of my best friends at one time (he was OMs partner long ago and its thru him we met OM and OMW) called me to see if I wanted to be picked up to go to the funeral. I am not going to the funeral. OM will not be there, hes not part of that group.

The friend who called to pick me up himself was a WS whose wife divorced him. I used to be somewhat social with him but since I know he knows I no longer want him in my life. Interesting, during the time of their prolonged divorce case, my wife remained friendly with his wife often commiserating about how terrible her husband is. During this time, my wife was doing her thing with her OM. Its not lost on me or my wife that my friend's now ex-wife has not spoken to my wife in months since OMW informed me she told him about the A. There is no doubt my buddy took the opportunity to tell his ex about my wife being as low a POS as he was. Kind of like, "just look who else is a lying, cheating miscreant."

Anyway, my need to end all of my friendships is bumming me out. I just cant face them. I have some pride, not a lot, just some. Enough that facing them is going to be too much embarassment.

I wont tell me wife any of this. This is just more stuff I get to keep crunched in my head next to all the other crap I get to keep silent in there.

I did send my friend a condolence card.


Another reason to move. New place new friends.
Not moving. She's given me no reason to do that. She has no lingering thoughts of her A. She's as well adjusted to our life circumstance as you could want. Our closest of friends in our community do not know of the A and thus present no issues with me. In truth, I did tell my wife after deciding to give our marriage a chance, that if this gets out in our community at any level, we are moving. Never came to that.

The friends I gave up are not in my community as much as they are longtime pals who I was touch in with only on a occasion. One is in touch with my wifes OM and OMW took the opportunity to give my wife (and me) a jab by telling this one about the A. As he is quick, Im sure, to spread juicy news like this, there is little doubt all of this group of friends know.

I only detect nausea in her when any reference to anything affair-like is made. There is nothing in now 11 months that has made me think she has any thought, fleeting or otherwise, of her former life.

Driving by their old office building and driving within 1/2 mile of his house are becoming things that have no bearing on my emotion, as predicted by many people here.

Im not upheaving my life. That would lend to much credence and give too much attention to something she would just as soon never mention again.

And, more important to me is that I find myself turning corners away from the anger and anxiety that dominated my life for last 11 months, also predicted by many.

So, nope, moving is not, nor has been, anything we ever considered at any length.
Spoke to the one long term friend who I still speak about being bummed about my decision to stop speaking, even occasionally, with this group of buddies. He himself a wayward spouse 3 years out from dday and struggling with his recovery. His wife is not following any MB strategy.

Anyway, he suggested I text some of these friends a happy holiday message and something to the effect of 'lets talk soon, ill call you'.

If anyone brings up anything A-like, simply respond we are working on our marriage and move on.

Slowly reintroduce myself to them. Sounds good.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/05/12 02:08 PM
Sounds like a good plan. Go into it knowing that a) at least one moron will say something inappropriate, b) your reaction is YOUR reaction, and c) his stupidity would not be your wife's CURRENT responsibility.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/05/12 05:30 PM
I have found that most people aren't going to say a whole lot. In fact, most are so caught up in their own problems that they don't have time to worry about anyone else's.

True friends want to support you - no matter what. I think they judge us/our situations much more graciously than we give them credit for at times.

I don't know if I shared this or not, but after the A discovery and my H moving out, my oldest son got up in front of the entire youth group at church and shared what was going on. At first I was a bit taken back by this but you know what? It was his story to tell too: he was suffering and needed his friends. I cannot tell you how proud I am of a group of high school kids; they REALLY came through for him in a big way. Between his close friends and youth leaders, he had a ton of support.

Of course, one of my first thoughts was, "All these kids are going to tell their parents and it is going to spread like wildfire - all over our community!" Honestly - I don't know whether it did or didn't. I shared with my closest friends what was going on and other than that, no one said a word to me about it. No one has said a word to H about it since reconciling either. We get no funny stares or whispering...

I wonder at times when someone who is especially nice to me that I haven't seen in a while is being so because they heard and empathize. I also wonder if people actually believe it or not - because H did move back home in just 6 weeks. Perhaps they think their kid "got it wrong" - who knows!

There's also the possibility that a lot of kids never said a word to their parents. I was surprised when I mentioned it to one of my son's good friend's mother - knowing he knew - and she hadn't heard.

The bottom line is, your friends are supposed to be there for you in times (and after times) of crisis. Sometimes that is by lending an ear or other forms of support. Other times, it's by treating you the same, no matter what.

It sounds to me - and I could be wrong - that you are either worried that your friends no longer respect you (or your wife) or you are ashamed of what happened. You know how the saying goes...He who is without sin cast the first stone. That's the way I see it. Either they will be the kind of friends you need or not - but it (to me) is worth giving them the shot!
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I have found that most people aren't going to say a whole lot. In fact, most are so caught up in their own problems that they don't have time to worry about anyone else's.


My mom used to say and has said to us a few more times since dday, that if you sat 10 people around the table and each spilled out their personal troubles, you gladly take yours.

In truth, I worry little about my wife looking bad or having lost the respect of my friends. Her attitude since being outed is one of 'I effed up, I know it, my kids know it, my husband knows, I dont care who else knows, but I will hold my head up in any group of people because I know I will do everything right for my family from for the rest of my life. To stay in that situation like I did represents about as low of self respect as person can have. Others respecting me is a bonus at this point, I have to build my own self respect.' This is from a letter she wrote me over the summer.

But, you are right, I am ashamed of what she did. Moreso because it makes me look like a moron, if you know some of the facts of the case. It makes me look like half a man. Yes, I can convince myself of her reasons were NOT sexual. But, if the reasons are monetary that adds to the shame of it all too.

Im ashamed of being so stupid and not catching on, but thats old news.

Her efforts to make things right with us are above and beyond what anyone could want. And that has helped with the shame.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/06/12 03:44 PM
I can convince myself of her reasons were NOT sexual. But, if the reasons are monetary that adds to the shame of it all too.

Dude, at this long remove from d-day, with all that you (and especially SHE) have accomplished since, I'm going to submit that the reasons for the affair cannot now hold much importance.

This traditionally has been the kind of...contemplation...that initiates the toilet-spiral that ends up here with you reporting yet another instance of resentment/AO/LB behavior. In effect, your thoughts act as a trigger to your own destructive emotions.

STOP IT NOW!

I notice you took the "trigger handling" mantra off your prologue. Put it back on, friend.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/06/12 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I have found that most people aren't going to say a whole lot. In fact, most are so caught up in their own problems that they don't have time to worry about anyone else's.


My mom used to say and has said to us a few more times since dday, that if you sat 10 people around the table and each spilled out their personal troubles, you gladly take yours.

In truth, I worry little about my wife looking bad or having lost the respect of my friends. Her attitude since being outed is one of 'I effed up, I know it, my kids know it, my husband knows, I dont care who else knows, but I will hold my head up in any group of people because I know I will do everything right for my family from for the rest of my life. To stay in that situation like I did represents about as low of self respect as person can have. Others respecting me is a bonus at this point, I have to build my own self respect.' This is from a letter she wrote me over the summer.

But, you are right, I am ashamed of what she did. Moreso because it makes me look like a moron, if you know some of the facts of the case. It makes me look like half a man. Yes, I can convince myself of her reasons were NOT sexual. But, if the reasons are monetary that adds to the shame of it all too.

Im ashamed of being so stupid and not catching on, but thats old news.

Her efforts to make things right with us are above and beyond what anyone could want. And that has helped with the shame.


A lot of BS's deal with shame or insecurity: why wasn't I good enough thoughts. Just keep in mind that it was not about you!

And yes, you're right - you DO have to build your own self-respect and your wife is there to help with that as well - to be your support system. I keep reiterating in my own situation that it was a great thing that I decided to go back to finish my degree when all of this started. It helped me keep my brain engaged in other things while H was wayward; it forced me to be out and about with other people; most importantly, it helped me gain some much needed self-respect back. With that self-respect I also earned respect from both H and my kids.
Since I'm now very date oriented, im doing my schedule for work and i see a trigger date 4/29, their last confirmed hookup. And of course the yr 1 mark after dday.

I have some mixed up emotions and i know the right solution to keep the plan going and keep up with all things that are good. But i am conflicted.

There are still too many images that i see all the time but cannot talk about. I know she hurts but...

Im tryin to make the next 4 weeks livable. I sense a higher level of anxiety than i have had lately.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/09/12 01:55 PM
What are you conflicted about - bringing these things up with her, how to handle it, or just your emotions are conflicted?

It's perfectly normal to have this stress with the anti-versary. I remember how awful I felt at the one year mark.

Your job is going to be to A: let her know what you need, but without committing LBers in doing so and B: amping up the work on the marriage. Now is not the time to slack off but to work even harder to keep the negativity at bay.

This is a perfect place to discuss how to do that.

It takes self-control to be able to not lovebust during this time. Remember, no talk of the A or any reference to OM - but you most certainly can tell your wife that the next month is probably going to be full of emotions for you and to let her know how best to handle that. Everyone's different in that regard. Sometimes I needed him to call or text me more during the day or a lot of physical touch time - whether just holding my hand or hugs...and sometimes I just wanted help around the house so I wasn't overwhelmed with both emotions and stuff that had to get done.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/09/12 04:38 PM
No need to tell WW about this antiversary dates.

Vent here.

Plan to do some special UA outtings to give these dates new meanings.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/09/12 08:04 PM
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
No need to tell WW about this antiversary dates.

Vent here.

Plan to do some special UA outtings to give these dates new meanings.


I agree with "reclaiming" these dates. That has helped me a lot throughout recovery - whether a place, event, or date - you have to bring it back to the new marriage if it is something unavoidable.

I would say no - you don't have to tell the wife about the antiversary dates - but you do have to be open about the fact that you may need more this coming month, IMO. There are ways to do that without LBing and bringing up the past. Your spouse is supposed to help you through recovery and they simply can't if they have to guess what you need.
Bobby Petrino's side babe cost him $3.5M a yr. Wonder if she was worth it. POS.

Some guys just cannot control themselves.

Why didnt he just divorce his wife when he first started doing this bimbo? Might have been able to save his job.

Meglomania is an interesting condition.
Posted By: Deacon_Blues Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/11/12 01:07 PM
Quote:
Why didnt he just divorce his wife when he first started doing this bimbo? Might have been able to save his job.

Your answer to solving the bimbo-problem is to LEAVE HIS FAMILY so that he could SAVE HIS JOB?
Tinge of sarcasm didnt come thru for you, Deke?

1000s of horny, weak-willed guys leave their wives and family for younger women all the time. The hurt, in my opinion, would be less if they did rather than putting a wife and kids through the pain of knowing dad is cheating. And, much worse if you are public figure.

I guess Im projecting because in my case I would much rather have had my wife ask for a divorce when her affair began than have the all the crap Im dealing with now. Our kids would have been younger and known less than they do now, I could have cried and fought for our marriage, but in the end if her happiness meant going with a deviant, go have him.

Id much rather she'd have found happiness long ago with him than string me along. This is all Im saying.
Where is the Celtic Voyager???
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Where is the Celtic Voyager???



Hey!

Sorry. Life got REAL busy here. I am serving at 2 churches now and started a new job in addition to school at night. Hsn't left much time for UA time so I had to cut back on a lot. Just catching up on a million back posts!

CV
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Where is the Celtic Voyager???



Hey!

Sorry. Life got REAL busy here. I am serving at 2 churches now and started a new job in addition to school at night. Hsn't left much time for UA time so I had to cut back on a lot. Just catching up on a million back posts!

CV


Good to hear from you. Those who keep me focused have had to pull double duty.

All is good.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Where is the Celtic Voyager???



Hey!

Sorry. Life got REAL busy here. I am serving at 2 churches now and started a new job in addition to school at night. Hsn't left much time for UA time so I had to cut back on a lot. Just catching up on a million back posts!

CV


Good to hear from you. Those who keep me focused have had to pull double duty.

All is good.


Lol. I'm glad to hear it! One of the things I am doing is teaching a crisis counseling class for one of the churches I am working at.Grace and I have done a phenomenal amount of it in the last few years and they asked if I could teach their leadership. Getting the MB stuff in line here for the marriage part....
Im upset over the goings on in another thread as Im really pulling for him to get what he wants out of his marriage and it seems to be eluding him.

The advice seems to be for him to step up UA time while confronting his wife on her recent NC infraction.

I really believe he needs to show her what life is like without him. The rumbling nausea in his belly he has had to live with must be unbearable. How much fight does he left?

--------

My wife mentioned to me that she knows what milestone dates are ahead of us and she reminded me that they are insignificant in terms of where we are and where we are going. It was a rare time she made any mention of anything like that.

--------

As predicted, the newlywed-like SF we've (maybe just, I) enjoyed has certainly cooled. We did have a discussion about it the other day. We have an empty house everyday for a couple of hours after Jr. gets on the bus and before she needs to leave for work.

This had become OUR time post dday, if you will.

And, she knows that during her A, this alone time was just that...we spent it alone and separate. Except for the handful of times per year I begged, browbeat, and cajoled her into it.

It boils down to initiating SF. I dont want to have to go thru the machinations like I did for a lot years. I WONT go thru that every time.

But in last 2-3 months I have found myself again having to create the magic much like always did. It triggers bad feelings and I had to tell her.

I know some guys like to be the aggressor and like to open the gates as I do and will continue to do on most occasion. I guess maybe I need the illusion that she wants me. All of me in every way. And when Im always tapping her on the shoulder for this, I see visions of her Id rather not.

I kept the discussion about us. Never spoke of her past activity. It wasnt about the frequency, which Im OK with even its comparatively slowed down state. Not about installing a trapeze and mirrors on the ceiling. Im good there.

It was about passion.

I want passion from her. About us. About being together with me.

Because nothing feels as good as when you feel the passion is real.

Just riffing.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/19/12 02:53 PM

Mike, It's sounds like you guys are doing very well.

I think all of us men struggle with what you are going through with your FWW.

It's a little different than the BW with the FWH scenario since men are usually the aggressor when it come to lovemaking.

The BW KNOWS her FWH wants her when he initiates because that probably was the way it was BEFORE the A.

The BH and FWW situation needs a new way of doing things so that the BH KNOWS he is wanted...

A little hard to KNOW if someone wants to do something if you are the one always asking them to do it...

What I learned was that the PASSION could come back if I planted the seed to make it grow.

One of the most common things BH's hear that the OM did that made her feel passionate was "It was just the way he looked at me..."

Well...

It was more than that.

It was HOW he made her feel about herself.

We BH have a HUGE advantage over the POS OM.

Ours is actually truthful LOVE for her...

NOT the bullsh*t lies he fed her.

Sending your W flowers and cards are nice but won't bring the PASSION back.

You need to recreate in her mind the feelings that you CRAVE her and that she is special.

How?

For most women TEXTING her is what plants the seed.

Her wondering WHAT you are going to say next.

Don't give it all away with the first text.

Give her something like "I was just thinking about."

Next "your eyes were so green this morning that it's all I can think about and."

You get the idea.

Stay connected to her the whole day, not just when she's home.

Everywhere.

At work or running errands.

It doesn't matter where she is she's ALWAYS on your mind.

It works.

God bless.

Jim
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/19/12 03:01 PM
Mike,

Just know that it is natural to have the slow down after awhile. We've experienced it too. Doesn't mean the passion should be gone, of course, but the hysterical bonding time period fades as you settle back in to every day life - unfortunately. smile

In a healthy marriage both parties should be initiating, at least to some degree. Heck, even if you're not the initiator you can still make sure your partner feels glad he or she initiated! In fact, that may be more important than who actually initiated.

For a woman, we need to feel the emotional intimacy sometimes in order to feel the physical passion. When we feel close to our spouses, unless there's something else going on (hormones or whatnot) we feel the passion much more readily. Just make sure you are having plenty of tender moments with your wife and the SF should take care of itself, I would think.
Thanks Jim.

I just got off the phone and closed out the conversation about SF and who gets things going before she had to run into work.

She doesnt always know when I want it (which is BS actually, Ive told pre dday only 100x I want it daily) but if she detects some anxiety she stays clear of me. I told her today that if Im anxious she is to come closer and that is the best way to remove it.

But, to your point, she wants me to be more proactive with the compliments and implied a sweet text or something nice out the door could do always do more to grease her wheel. Even suggested a good hold sometimes would be appreciated and returned. To think that a vision of her past life would put me in a crappy mood and thus reduce the chance of me extending a compliment or mood inducing touch and thus reduce my chance of SF is vicious cycle I need to end.

-----

She actually met 2 girlfriends for coffee before work and one of them is the girl she'd invite over to OM's house because he wouldnt be able to glom all over her for action if the friend was there. This sets off a bunch of bad images, like no matter how often the friend was there, it was nearly enough to avoid a ton of alone time with him. Anyway, I didnt bring it up.

I told she is doing great and Im proud of her. And I texted her blue eyes are all Im thinking about today!!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/19/12 03:15 PM
JF although more unusual this is not just a phenomena that occurs for BH's, I have SF as a top EN and can related. Not common, but I can relate to everything you are saying MSS.

I have only been working on recovery for a couple months after several yrs in la la land. Have gone back to pre DDay major initiation and although WH is still being receptive to it, he hasn't done much intiating on his side. I already after a couple months am back to feeling like 'the groper' and have sensed a slight effort on his part to start getting annoyed with my constant advances and pushing me away, which was a HUGE LB for many years. Worse for a girl? At least it is COMMON for a guy and many can relate. I can't tell you how many people shake their head in disbelief at this dynamic between us and say 'he must be cheating....um ya...or he must be gay!' Quite frustrating.

I get wanting the passion, or wanting to feel like you are desired by your spouse. H once told me his former gf's thought he was too sexually assertive, yet with me??? Makes me feel like he is not attracted to me or does not want me. Very rejected. Also feel like maybe it is a matter of the cat and mouse game, like does a man secretly like to have to work for it, which he never has to do. As in, if it is offered on a silver platter, does it take some of the fun away. I don't know. I'm not really good at playing cat and mouse.

Anyway, if you figure out how to fix this problem, let me know.
Um yeah, it is an odd dynamic over there UW.

The WS getting all he needs at home and still needs side action.

I should be so lucky to have the need to push her away for too much action!! Wow.

Truth is for me and maybe other BH as well, its natural for me to want to "reclaim" her. This was a LTA and no doubt they spent a lot of time together. I have a need to have her a lot.

(By the way, at risk going into TMI territory, I went to a psychologist after dday to work "MY ISSUES" through. As sex with OM was front and center in my head, he suggested a certain type of sex that OM and my wife never did, nor have I with her, but this would be my exclusive part of her. I told her about the Dr.'s precription for me and she WAS NOT on board at all. No amount of alcohol would work. I ceased visiting this guy.)

I just wanted her to be mine in the tradition sense. No need to create a sexual spectacle.

I dont know what to suggest to you, UW. It doesnt take anyone special to want only one's wife. It does however take a lowlife to want another's. The same is true for woman.

Either he wants only you or he doesnt. He needs to choose and not just use you.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/19/12 04:31 PM
Thanks MSS hope I'm not hijacking your thread with my own issues! WS was not getting all his needs met at home but he WAS getting SF met, at all times in our marriage.

I don't know about the reclaiming thing. For me I just feel like he wanted these other women more. Found them more attractive more sexy. Of course during his one physical encounter (ONS) I think of it as very passionate and him being very aggressive with her which he does not do with me (I am 95% initiator, aggressor even after DDay, I initiated LESS but still had to have some needs met, know what I mean..). Maybe it was or wasnt like that I don't even know.

That story about the psychologist made me LOL.

Well he has chosen only me, at least he better have. If you have read any of my thread you know how resentful I am over a ONS that happened a decade ago (and several other EA's, situations along the way of course). There is no FR or fence walking for this BS nor should there be for him. And I'm not really sure about 'using me' either. Am I using him???

What say you about my cat and mouse comment? From a male's perspective. Could that be it? I just know how I lived for the first decade when he had his wayward mindset, do NOT want to go back to that way of life and I can see it around the corner. My seemingly desperate attempts to engage him in SF, him rejecting me. Also don't want to feel like SF for him is like a chore to check off to meet my EN's. Need the desire and passion! Like you said. Ok I'm done venting on your thread. Just thought you might have some insight from his perspective, but I guess my sitch is kindof an anomaly.
Not sure about cat and mouse stuff.

Some guys want to chase, some want to be chased, Im sure most want and have a happy combination of both.

If you initiating SF at a rate you are not happy with, it needs to be spoken about. You are talking to a guy who spent inordinate amount of time have to ask for it from my wife while she seemed to be giving to another (whether he had to beg for it or not.)

I have had girlfriends 20 years ago, maybe not uncommon for our ages then, who initiated it all the time. So, I know it does happen. I have friends today who have wives who initiate it per 'guy talk' I hear. So, i know it happens today.

For me, to have to ask for it or make the first move ALL THE TIME is too reminiscent of a long period of bad times in that arena.

Yes your situation maybe an anomaly. However, my wife OM was cheating on his wife with mine, and on my wife with yet another. For men its usually about sex and not getting enough of it. It gives me some hope that maybe he just wasnt getting as much from either his or my wife so he needed another. Ill go with that thought.

So if yours is getting it at home at desired (however inflated) levels what is he looking for?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/19/12 05:02 PM
Good question. Don't know the answer. Not getting his needs of DS and RC met, but then, a ONS with an unattractive bar ho didn't provide him with either of those either. I guess I would chalk the ONS up to too much liqour and poor boundaries. All the crap in between then and now though, guess that wasn't just about SF.

What are inflated levels? Didn't you say you requested it once a day based on your EN list? That's all I'm asking for. Actually I think I cut that down to 5 times/week to be fair. More I just want it to be a two way street, know what I mean?

I have definitely spoken about it. I have said nothing on these forums or elsewhere that I have not first said to him, and usually on multiple occasions. He definitely knows what I want, and when I'm frustrated about not getting it. And doesn't seem to care all that much, just says its a greater need for me than him.
UW-

I have to read your thread more closely than I have.

Your resentment seems to stem from a concern about the future and his ability to stay true to you.

Mine stems from a different place only pertaining to the past.

Therefore our angst needs to be address differently. I know my wife is regretful, thinks nothing about the A or her OM, and makes me about as happy as I can be. We speak of things that concern us when they arise and we adjust our actions accordingly.

You dont seem to feel safe in your marriage and youre calling it resentment for a decade old affair.

I will reread your thread more carefully in case Im missing your mark.

Mike
I can advise, suggest, motivate, and even beat up new BHs that come here as if I got it all figured out. Maybe its why I do it? So can I show off as much of the MB skills Ive both used and read so much about.

However, we are coming up to a period of time that is triggering some pretty bad memories. I know the excercises. I know the mental tricks. Ive had the model wife to help me through every minute of this thing last year. I had it all.

Why is April 29th turning me upside down? It is, afterall, part of the past. And, Ive done a lot to wash the past away. 4/29 is the anniversary of the acknowledged last rendezvous with OM. They way I heard from a combination of OMW and my wife was that OM and his wife were heading for a weekend away but OM couldnt leave without having my wife. It had been a long time since he had her and did some begging for it. He wished my wife was going with him on the weekend rather than his wife. (I got that from my wife and I had to tell OMW, who at the time was convinced my wife did ALL the persuing in this thing.)

Anyway he made the plans with my wife while she watched the kid that they'd go to dinner and hotel later that night. While I was on a little league field with both of my kids and Im not 100% sure where she said she was, but she went to dinner with him but declined the hotel for intercourse and offered a bj back at his office, the scene of many such things, which he accepted.

What is getting to me and has always got to me is this one event but a pimple on a buffalo's butt in terms of the grand scheme of their relationship. Just one of countless times. To be upset about this one thing almost makes no sense as there were a lot of times they were alone.

Im popping more anxiety pills in the last week than I have in the last 6. I have not told her what grinding at me. Im trying to avoid an explosion.

I know she knows about the anniversary of dday but not so sure if she knows Sunday will mark a bad anniversary for me. And since she has an ability to forget numbers, dates, and significant things pertaining to events, I bet she'll say she didnt even think of 4/29.

Doing my best but sometimes its to be too much for me to handle. Im not going back to dday and those crappy times. Im not looking to start fights. But, sometimes I want more from her.

I know a lot of other BS are acutely aware of significant dates and milestones mostly post dday and conversely WS have murky recollections of their doings.

My wife cant remember anything about the affair. How is this possible? OK, its was a LTA and maybe she can remember the first time this happened or that happened. Maybe she's protecting me from hurt? I dont want to be protected anymore. I want to know what she did still. I want more than Im sorries. Then again, as per my agreement, Im not to ask about any of it.

The upcoming milestones are triggering my need to know more stuff and that is what Im fighting.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 02:25 PM
mike

i can agree with you as my ddays' are ticking off my calendar.

"My wife cant remember anything about the affair. How is this possible? OK, its was a LTA and maybe she can remember the first time this happened or that happened. Maybe she's protecting me from hurt? I dont want to be protected anymore. I want to know what she did still. I want more than Im sorries. Then again, as per my agreement, Im not to ask about any of it. "

I also happen to be in a similar situation, cant remember yada yada. i am stubborn and cannot believe you cant remember those things. you can forget what you ate for dinner but come on how do you "forget" things like what they did. I just dont buy it.

Tho maybe they are repressing the memories, maybe its protection, or themselves and us--- i dont know, but this is where i have been for the past few days also.

its just the part of ride.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 02:31 PM
Mike, what can we do to help?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 02:36 PM
Been there. I have always thought that it is because things that are significant to the BS are just as INsignificant to the WS. The physical acts that are like a dagger through the heart to the BS, are just an act to the WS. If you had a sexual history prior to your M, do you remember dates and details about each of those events? No, because at the end of the day they are just events that all blend together short from a few stand out situations perhaps. That is what the WS feels about their affair events.

If you read my own thread you know I too struggle with the 'never talk about anything regarding the A again...' advice I have received, so I have nothing to say about that. Good luck getting through your marker day, if you need to vent you can always come here.
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Mike, what can we do to help?


Nothing.

Its on me.

Wrote her a long email basically bring up the past and then deleted it.

Not sure reminding her of a blowjob she gave another guy is going to solve anything but show her Im still stuck in her affair. She knows this.

See, I learned enough here to know outlining the blow by blow (ahem) of her sin against our vows will do nothing for either of us.

Just keeping the team posted on whats going on in this noggin. Much of it is going to stay in there.
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Been there. I have always thought that it is because things that are significant to the BS are just as INsignificant to the WS. The physical acts that are like a dagger through the heart to the BS, are just an act to the WS. If you had a sexual history prior to your M, do you remember dates and details about each of those events? No, because at the end of the day they are just events that all blend together short from a few stand out situations perhaps. That is what the WS feels about their affair events.


I didnt have an extravagant history before my wife but I do remember quite a few of the experiences. Dates. Where it happened. And they were 20 years ago plus.

So when she says she cant recollect details like she did during the days of 'open questioning' that happened within the passed 5 or 6, I think shes protecting me or herself.

This is all ancient history all described to length on my my SAA thread. And, the beat down I took from everyone for dwelling on it is there too.

If I dont watch out, a whipping is coming my way today.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 03:01 PM
Let us know how to make it better, okay?

May I suggest ways to make it WORSE?


* Decline to acknowledge to her the calendar's obvious significance. Stew alone without taking her into your heart by saying something that SHE ALREADY KNOWS like, "I'm looking forward to getting past this weekend, but it'll be tough doing so."

* Stay passive and inactive so that the MIND is free to go where you do NOT want it to go. Make absolutely sure it's just the two of you, all day, watching the clock tick by until Monday.

* Ignore your children. What can they do to help, anyway?

* Try to dull/buffer the pain with alcohol.

* Skip religious services. He never helped anyone with a crisis of faith, did he?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 03:02 PM
It has been suggested I read your thread. Think I started but didn't get very far that day, will have to revisit. Then I can learn from your beat down vicariously rather than be subject to my own.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 03:10 PM
I think it comes down to us wanting them to hurt like we hurt. After all, why should they get a free pass when we were the innocent parties???

BUT... the marriage is not made better by trying to equalize the pain.

I know it's not easy, but you were right in not sending that email. You do need to let your wife help you through this but you need to do so productively.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/25/12 09:36 PM

Hello Mike,

For those of us like you and I lucky enough to actually have a remorseful FWW there is something you must know...

and remind yourself of on a daily basis.

Unlike those that are NOT remorseful it actually causes your W and mine huge amounts of PAIN to remember the actual events that destroyed our marriages.

I imagine it's a little like everytime you have a mental image of your shame having a hot poker shoved into your eye...

and having to remember that OVER and OVER everytime you and I have a flashback to the PAIN they caused us also causes them to have a similar PAIN recalling the wretched events.

Mike, because she is remorseful, SHE hurts evertime YOU hurt.

She loves you, Mike, that is why it HURTS her to recall what she did to you...

Asking her to relive that PAIN over and over does not help YOU or HER.

She is trying DESPERATELY to forget and forgive her former self and concentrate on LOVING you and you keep bringing it up.

It hurts the love between you and keeps it from healing.

Dr.Harley reminds us to NOT keep bringing it up over and over once you have your answers and there is a very good reason for his statement.

You have to stop making her relive her shame if you want her love for you to grow and prosper.

Good luck, my friend, you CAN do this.

God bless.

Jim
Posted By: Gamma Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/26/12 02:21 AM
MikeSS,

My wife cant remember anything about the affair. How is this possible? OK, its was a LTA and maybe she can remember the first time this happened or that happened.

There is a real conflict here between honesty and LBing.

I know my W has not come clean out of fear, shame and embarrassment, she says she doesn't want to remember, this is like telling me not to think of something which only stimulates me to want to know.

Until exposed however, those repressed memories will continue to have a bad influence on our marriage, so I really don't think you can ever just leave the mess and move on single sidedly.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/26/12 08:45 AM
Repressed memories?

Puh.


It's not like post-fog amnesia is isolated to particular waywards.

Memory recall requires context. A color, a shape, a smell, a feeling, a song, an item... you know... triggers.

After discovery, exposure, and all of the fallout following the end of an affair a repentent wayward will no longer have the emotional context to properly recall certain memories.

THAT ISN'T A BAD THING.

The fact that memories that were encoded under the effects of affair-fog no longer have an emotional context for recall means... that the wayward can't effectively wax romantic with those memories.

Why wouldn't they want to recall those memories now?

Because they are now associated with guilt, shame, and pain.

So... yes, maybe when they hit a period of those emotions, there may be some recall, but even that will be fuzzy as the memories were originally encoded with foggy emotions.

So a year... or several years later?

The only thing you are digging for is large LB$ deficits for the both of you.
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
The only thing you are digging for is large LB$ deficits for the both of you.


No argument here.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/26/12 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
The only thing you are digging for is large LB$ deficits for the both of you.


No argument here.


Are you doing the online program or called the coaching center?
OMW dropped an email to see how things were as we approach one year out.

First time we had any contact in 2012.

Told her 'terrific' and said bye.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/27/12 08:48 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
OMW dropped an email to see how things were as we approach one year out.

First time we had any contact in 2012.

Told her 'terrific' and said bye.

I wonder if she has reason to believe her WH is communicating with someone and wants to know if it might be your W?
Posted By: Gamma Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/27/12 09:34 PM
MSS,

Why not send her a few anniversary gifts?

The name of a good divorce lawyer

The name of a good PI

The name of a good gynecologist for STD testing.

A spyware program

A voice activated recorder or video recorder

A GPS for OM car.

A link to marriage builders.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/27/12 11:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Gamma
MSS,
Why not send her a few anniversary gifts?

The name of a good divorce lawyer

The name of a good PI

The name of a good gynecologist for STD testing.

A spyware program

A voice activated recorder or video recorder

A GPS for OM car.
A link to marriage builders.

ETA

Why not send her this?
Marriage Builders
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/27/12 11:09 PM
Or better yet, how about this.
Video:Infidelity: What Every Couple Needs to Know
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/28/12 12:08 AM
Really, Gamma? You think MSS should intentionally inflict pain on his co-victim, to make himself feel.....less damaged?

No. Sincerely, passionately NO!

Mike, you're beyond that, I hope.

Here's looking forward to Monday morning, dude!
I don't know what G is talking about.

My wife and I got a 1500 word manifesto from omw basically blaming my wife for the entire affair. I have to do some editing but I'll put it up here eventually.

More or less called my wife evil with proof to back up her claim.

Wife took it hard. I told her to forget about it. Omw literally gave no blame to her husband. He's the victim.

I have no compassion in this for her anymore, omw.

Not sending her here now.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/28/12 01:38 AM
She needs MB more than most with all that anger.

She chose to rip me apart with some things she said. Iwas her ally.

She can stew in her anger for life and until her innocent husband bangs another chick.

The letter was overboard harsh.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/28/12 02:46 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
She chose to rip me apart with some things she said. Iwas her ally.

She can stew in her anger for life and until her innocent husband bangs another chick.

The letter was overboard harsh.

She was wrong to do that to you. Sorry that she did that, because you don't deserve that.

Did your wife ever apologize to her or her WH to you?
My wife has apologized to everyone more than once. Yes om apologized for his actions early on.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/28/12 02:02 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
My wife has apologized to everyone more than once. Yes om apologized for his actions early on.


Glad they did the right thing.

Well, I wish you and your W strides in your recovery MSS.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/29/12 02:19 PM
She can't recover while still blaming and hating her WH for the affair.

The OMW needs a whipping boy/girl.

Some one to transfer the blame and hate to.

You people can't see this?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/29/12 02:25 PM
MSS,

Here are some excellent radio clips from Dr. H on resentment. I hope they help.
Radio clip on resentment
Segment #2
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/29/12 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
She can't recover while still blaming and hating her WH for the affair.

The OMW needs a whipping boy/girl.

Some one to transfer the blame and hate to.

You people can't see this?

Yes I think it's very obvious.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/29/12 05:25 PM
TR, we can agree that OMW is clueless about where her attention should be.

She's not here, however.

MSS must keep his focus at home where it belongs, not getting distracted by drama at the OM house.

Thinking of you today, Mike.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/29/12 09:37 PM
The thing is if MSS see's this for what it is then he should let it run as water off the back of a duck. MSS then will of stopped himself from having any issue.
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
The thing is if MSS see's this for what it is then he should let it run as water off the back of a duck. MSS then will of stopped himself from having any issue.


I crafted a 2500 word response and deleted it .

Had an incredible weekend despite the arrival of that letter.

I'm not going to post it, suffice to say she was fairly accurate on most things she wrote. I'm a realist, my wife did some lousy things to many people, I didn't need it spelled again. That's an angry woman and she took the anniversary of dday to unload her thoughts.

I didnt reply.

Had a nice conversation with my wife after. I got some things cleared up. We spoke openly about some formerly closed subjects.

The letter put the affair in a new perspective for me. Not better or worse, just a new perspective.

Were moving on like nothing occurred.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/30/12 01:03 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
MSS,

Here are some excellent radio clips from Dr. H on resentment. I hope they help.
Radio clip on resentment
Segment #2


I'm glad you had a good weekend MSS, many more of those to come.

What did you think about the above radio clips?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/30/12 11:39 AM
MSS must keep his focus at home where it belongs...

...if MSS sees this for what it is then he should let it run as water off the back of a duck.


Where we differ is that I would advise against wasting effort in analyzing the message's genesis, and then ignoring it. Better, I aver, to ignore it from the beginning.

Maybe just tomayto, tomahto....
I ignored.

It was written, as I saw it, with her pychologist in mind who has little knowledge of how to help a victim of adultery recover. I suspect, her shrink told her to write this letter rehashing all that happened, put the blame mostly on my wife, and to put a target on my forehead, for some unknown reason. Maybe the shrink believes this will diminish things in her patients mind?

Whatever. I wrote several drafts of replies. Asked my wife if I could sent it and she asked me to let it go, to drop it.

She said she is not that person OMW wrote about anymore. She has worked in the last year to not be anything like that person. Sending my reply would only fan the fire in MY HEAD.

OMW called my wife an idiot in her letter. I dont see an idiot anymore. Im proud of her, actually, that she didnt get revved up to reply to the many untruths. She showed the same dedication to letting the past be the past that she has maintained now coming up on one year. In some ways, my wife is a better person than I today.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 04/30/12 11:07 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I ignored.

It was written, as I saw it, with her pychologist in mind who has little knowledge of how to help a victim of adultery recover. I suspect, her shrink told her to write this letter rehashing all that happened, put the blame mostly on my wife, and to put a target on my forehead, for some unknown reason. Maybe the shrink believes this will diminish things in her patients mind?

Whatever. I wrote several drafts of replies. Asked my wife if I could sent it and she asked me to let it go, to drop it.

She said she is not that person OMW wrote about anymore. She has worked in the last year to not be anything like that person. Sending my reply would only fan the fire in MY HEAD.

OMW called my wife an idiot in her letter. I dont see an idiot anymore. Im proud of her, actually, that she didnt get revved up to reply to the many untruths. She showed the same dedication to letting the past be the past that she has maintained now coming up on one year. In some ways, my wife is a better person than I today.



AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like to consider myself a hero, reluctant, but a hero nonetheless. A hero does the seemingly impossible. Saves the day. Lives in a sort of personal exile but lives to make others' lives better.

It will be a year this week that I learned that my wife was living a second life. A life that makes little sense to me. One that she cannot explain away and one that nearly destroyed several people that she claims to love. A year later, umpteem hundred posts here, dozens of unpleasant episodes, a couple shrinks, lots of depression and anxiety pills, I a need to reflect on the year. I made a self imposed one year time frame to decide what is it that "I" want. Then I decided that 2 years would be the better time frame, per advice here. I know what she wants. I know what my children want. What do I want, though?

Yes, I read the vomit filled letter that OMW sent over and its had an effect on me. It was 60 percent bulls---, but that means it was 40% reality. Its that 40 percent that has and continues to work its way around my daily existence.

I know all I have to do is go back 40-50 pages of THIS thread to get how-to-handle triggers help or even go find my original thread to remind of how I got my butt handed to me for even going down this path again. But, indulge me to give a state of this union dday anniversary update.

A hero needs to be strong. Not to let things get under his skin. And Im trying.

I got beat up many, many times here for thinking "my situation is different". And after reading dozens and dozens of poor schmos' stories like mine, its true, my story isnt different except that its MINE. I know of the day after day that she left me under the guise of going to work only to be doing something other than work on many of those days. I know of how WE invited this person with his wife into my home where I cooked and cleaned for him countless times while he and my wife were intimate the following day. I know how on half dozen occasions she'd told me nothing was going on with them. How she wore HIS jewelry very often. How she wore clothing and gifts he bought for her all the time. The sheer amount of time together they spent alone is mind boggling. HOW SHE LET MY CHILDREN FALL IN LOVE WITH HIM AND HIS FAMILY.

I am year away from learning this moron recorded them together and thus ending their party. I am also stuck thinking that this woman very likely would still be his party girl had he not. Despite her "employment" very likely would have ended in September passed, nothing, nothing tells me she had the ability to end the part-time lover status she seemed to enjoy for the last period of their time together.

I wrangle with all this and I have stowed much of it away at the imploring of the fine advisors I have here. She's not that person anymore. I won, she chose me. The past is passed. All good sentiments, no doubt.

So, this week I enter the 2nd year of 'recovery'. A time that some say the pain of the above lessens. So bring it on.

I cannot say for sure what my future holds. Im trying to meet needs I failed to for her and she has been golden in that dept for the one year. I promised myself I would try all that the books say I should to improve my life with my wife. I will do even more in the 2nd year to be the best me I can be. I will be a hero. A superhero.

I was going to post the lyrics to Bowie's "Heroes" because the song haunts me and I feel like it describes my journey here. But, on further discovery, the song was written about Bowies producer who was having an affair and would meet his lover and it was those meetings that Bowie observed and then inspired him to write about. So much for that. Another pop culture item I once enjoyed that I cant any longer.

Another warning that despite being in love with something, there may be something underlying that isnt kosher. A song, a movie, and, of course, a wife. Maybe an unfair comparison?

Trust but verify. The lesson of my life.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 05/07/12 02:02 PM
Very well-written post, Mike.

I think it's the loss of innocence in our marriages that is most difficult to deal with: knowing that no matter how much we heal, we can't un-know what we know. We get over it, but we'd rather it not have happened and that just isn't possible.

The good news is, it DOES lessen greatly with time - to the point of it not bothering you anymore even. And you know, we probably should have never been so naive about how fragile marriage can be anyway. No one should.

The first year is the hardest and you've made it through. I wish I had some sage advice for you, but you've heard it all before. I love The Replacements and Keanu Reeve's speech to the guys in the huddle at the end:

"I wish I could say something classy and inspirational, but that just wouldn't be our style. ... Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever."

Now, I don't know about the chicks digging scars part, lol, but it's true: pain DOES heal. In our marital journeys here, glory DOES last forever because as the hero, it has more of a lasting affect than anything else can - these are our families and our legacies we're talking about!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 05/07/12 02:11 PM
Great post Mike. I read posts day in and day out here, now that I have MB in my life. For some reason this one is making me tear up! I guess something in it speaks to me, not sure exactly what tho. Maybe it is just reminding me of how far I still have to go to get to where you are. But I am happy to hear you are there, its hope:) Thanks for sharing.
Almost four years out for me. June 18th. At almost 4 yrs, it is VERY bearable. I would say it's hopeful and fun (marriage).

CV
Got thru Mother's Day sans any issues. Thank you very much.

Yr. 2 is going swimmingly.

(She sent me a text yesterday while I was at the market telling me that she knows what today may mean to me and that she loves me and I replied back that if its anything other than Mother's Day than its meaningless. Progress for us both.)
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 05/14/12 09:38 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Got thru Mother's Day sans any issues. Thank you very much.

Yr. 2 is going swimmingly.

(She sent me a text yesterday while I was at the market telling me that she knows what today may mean to me and that she loves me and I replied back that if its anything other than Mother's Day than its meaningless. Progress for us both.)

Like Pep always says "progress not perfection"

Enjoy who your W is now and not the WW she used to be.

Congrats Mike hurray
helpfordad,

I cannot find your thread or'se Ida written there. I see you are chiming in on others' threads, how's things with you?

mss
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 05/23/12 11:23 AM
MSS,

Thanks for your note.

I have been....trying to be okay. Been a bit down lately...everything between us is okay, I guess, but had a bad day last Saturday. Some days I just don't know -- if I'm subconsiously holding on to the pain, or if I simply can't get past it, not matter how hard I am trying.

W got very upset -- said she feels that I am 'disgusted, repulsed' by her, and I am not letting it go.

I don't know if it's resentment, or I'm still working through the 'stages of dying' dealing with the death of our old marriage.

Do you ever wonder if splitting up, while not changing the events that occured, would still separate you, on a daily basis, from the very 'trigger' that caused that pain in the first place?

Maybe I am evolving to a new realization that I just don't have the wherewithal, after the struggles of the affair itself, etc., to get through an effective recovery (which, ironically, is even more difficult).

I am haunted by the knowns and unknowns of her affair, and maybe I have to acdept that's just going to be too much for me to move past.

I've blathered on too long....I hope that YOU are doing well, and all is okay on the homefront.

Thank you!
Blather on, my brother, because all the you write is all that I think as well.

I dont want to re-write my 2 threads here but needless to say much of the angst I still feel a year later.

Im a picture of innner conflict as it appears you are too.

My problems stem from the sheer length of time she stayed with him. How at some point it became easy and without fear of being caught. And most of all how she must have, for waaaaayyyy too long, had absolute no feelings for me at all. Zero. How else could she have done the things she did which I wont rehash today?

The conflict comes when I look back at the 12 months since dday and how great she has been. How dedicated to us she has been.

The only reason to leave would be to deal her the final punishment. This is something I cant find myself doing to my kids. Will it remove the bad memories? No. It would be to deliver incredible hardship to her and 2 innocent kids.

HFD, I described it less than eloquently as having to eat a turd sandwich on a daily basis. You and I are heros who dine at the crapola buffet. We stroll the high ground while our W will spend their lives knowing they are capable of the lowest things possible in society. The are recovering adulterers. They are to be pitied and to be saved by heros.

I'd hate to be them. They are subject to these 'bad days' when a movie or a restaurant or song can send their husbands in to a effed up mood. Thankfully and luckily for them, these days seem to be fewer and far between because heros are able to get passed these things.

She doesnt say anything about her past with him which I believe stems from a long term bout of temporaty insanity. Only an insane person would do what she did.

We do have the power to struggle thru this only if our W are wind in our sails. They have a large window for failure.

Yes, I have lots of questions that I dont want the answers to. Im not a lawyer but lawyers only ask questions that they know the answer beforehand. The questions I have I pretty much know the answers to. To ask them and to demand an honest answer is to embarass her and demean her. Not to mention drive me into a tizzy.

I really hope your W is as committed to removing what was done as mine is. She knows anything short of it would be met with certain actions by me. It hasnt come anywhere close to this.

Keep us in the fold.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 05/23/12 05:03 PM
Originally Posted By: helpfordad
MSS,

Thanks for your note.

I have been....trying to be okay. Been a bit down lately...everything between us is okay, I guess, but had a bad day last Saturday. Some days I just don't know -- if I'm subconsiously holding on to the pain, or if I simply can't get past it, not matter how hard I am trying.

W got very upset -- said she feels that I am 'disgusted, repulsed' by her, and I am not letting it go.

I don't know if it's resentment, or I'm still working through the 'stages of dying' dealing with the death of our old marriage.

Do you ever wonder if splitting up, while not changing the events that occured, would still separate you, on a daily basis, from the very 'trigger' that caused that pain in the first place?

Maybe I am evolving to a new realization that I just don't have the wherewithal, after the struggles of the affair itself, etc., to get through an effective recovery (which, ironically, is even more difficult).

I am haunted by the knowns and unknowns of her affair, and maybe I have to acdept that's just going to be too much for me to move past.

I've blathered on too long....I hope that YOU are doing well, and all is okay on the homefront.

Thank you!


Very first thing;


How has your UA time been?


Secondly; radical honesty. I know I had to have a complete moratorium on phrases like: get over it, move past it, move forward.

Any time NGB used any phrase like that I just bristled. I just made a simple request; please, do not make any statements in that vein. You cut my heart out and I'm trying to grow it back... even if I wanted it to, it won't do so at your request. I'm here. Now. Let's go from there.


A reformed wayward lives in a constant state of fear. They fear that day we will cash in that "get out of marriage free" card.

It's our job to quit flashing the sucker while we try to learn to breathe again.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 05/23/12 05:19 PM
HHH,

1. UA time -- probably not where it needs to be

2. A reformed wayward lives in a constant state of fear. They fear that day we will cash in that "get out of marriage free" card.

It's our job to quit flashing the sucker while we try to learn to breathe again.


Great points...I think I had a 'flare up' recently, and this is W's fear: SHE asked ME if I was sure I was 'all-in' becasue SHE is, and wants to move forward WITH ME...

I still get so angry and resentful sometimes, and probably DID have a look of 'disgust, repulsed' on my face...maybe I am holding on/flashing that card when I shouldnt any longer...

(W is in no way DEMANDING I 'get over it'...she doesn't want ME living in the past weighing down our recovery).

Thank you!
From another thread. One of he best bits of advice to a ww about a subject i have thought about since day 1--

"Hmmmmmm.....

As for the whole 'used for sex' thing...

Used implies a) he's tricking/manipulating you or b) he's not committed to you. Neither of which is true as he was honest about what he wanted and he is married to you. The fact he might choose to divorce in the future doesn't make him any less your husband now.

The whole concept of being used boils down to your walking on egg shells with him about the level of commitment. You feel powerless and that has the side effect of making people feel manipulated and used. So take power. You're his wife until he divorces.

The response to the 'just for fun' comment would be something like: 'Oh it will be. I've been longing to be in my husbands arms again' reiterate YOUR commitment and your rightful position as much as possible. That's the truth of the matter until actions make it otherwise. Marriage is marriage until divorce. There is no limbo. There is also no need to text him for commitment, as you already have it. Neediness is a love buster and there is no need to feel 'used' in the future if he chooses to D. You slept with him as his wife.

The other crux of the problem is that sex doesn't appear to be a high EN for you. When he wants needs like affection or RC you don't feel used, - but when its meeting a need for him, and he uses the term 'fun' you're offended because sex isn't a high need. If he referred to meeting one of your high needs as 'fun' I doubt you would have the same reaction. So he may not fully appreciate your perspective.

You're fully within your rights to say no to sex that makes you uncomfortable, but I predict if you were to seize the power of the situation, you wouldn't feel used.

If you were to say, 'I'm your wife, I'm yours whenever' rather than asking HIM to say that, you'd feel more powerful.

Even if he were to disagree, just smile and say you hope he feels differently soon, but until you see divorce papers, you feel you belong in the bed where your husband sleeps whenever he wants you there."

I always thought since my sex life with my wife was bad during her affair (and before) that she would look to be a hero in bed. However, I grappled with "using" her. I didnt want to take advantage of a down person. It was a conversation with her when she said in no uncertain terms almost exactly was was written above.

She said that she did not turn into a non-stop sexual being with him despite any misconceptions I hold. And among her regrets depriving me of her intimately is way up there. She said she doesn't fully know what our future holds but our bedroom life is the easiest part of recovery for her.

Perhaps I can do a better job of allaying her concerns about our future as in NOT doing so I dont give her a feeling of security. Maybe a love buster in and of itself.

As a fairly chaste person before and during our marriage she knows the damage the affair had on me with regard to jealousy. And how it crushed me as a man. She knows giving herself sexually to another while I was left alone so many times was almost unforgivable.

The part of the advice where the ww gains power by giving herself to the BH is about as salient of a point as I've read on the subject. I truly feel she feels some modicum of redemption and self respect that she desperately wants. Not to mention it has gotten us closer as a couple in more ways than physically.

My wife has looked me in the eyes with a seriousness that is clear and said on the several occasions where I asked her if Im hurting her or demanding or expecting it too much, "Im yours whenever", just like what was advised above, and I will say that nothing, nothing is as powerful as that. I get emotional just thinking about it because it makes me feel like a man and, more importantly, makes me want to be a better person while I move further away from it.

I told her as part my conditions to stay together that this part of our marriage will be crucial and she has been as committed to it today as she was day 1. She has made sex with me one her highest needs and that is the difference.

I think the above post are words to live by for a ww especially as they were written by a bw.
Because my wife has lived this advice and Im terribly proud how well she has followed not only this advice, but the entire preferred FWW MB playbook really without anyone having to tell her how, I copied her on the original post.

I never had reason to doubt her sincerity in the sack post dday but I wanted her know what it means to me to have her as my partner in every respect.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 06/06/12 04:56 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Because my wife has lived this advice and Im terribly proud how well she has followed not only this advice, but the entire preferred FWW MB playbook really without anyone having to tell her how, I copied her on the original post.

I never had reason to doubt her sincerity in the sack post dday but I wanted her know what it means to me to have her as my partner in every respect.


Good job, Mike! The more you praise your wife for the great partner she is now, she will want to rise even higher to the occasion.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 07/13/12 10:46 AM
You should always be aware that yours is one of the limited number of fully "returned" FWWs of the recent MB past. Cherish her and maintain EAOTP.
Im trying to keep my postings of inspiration only to BH with wives who are remorseful and doing whatever it takes to keep their husbands around and the BH is the purgatory I dwelled (and unfortunately sometimes still find myself). Sort of the only stuff I know all about.

I sometimes get too jaded and too easily 'throw out' the WW who is foggy and not immediately snapped out of it on dday. I have little patience for that and its probably not fair to both the BH and his wife that I suggest separation without giving some of the initial MB steps a chance.

I love my wife as much as the next guy, but I will say this like I did last year, if there was anything less than full remorse, regret, and a overhaul of her way of life, mss would be gone. If what she was up to was what she wanted and central to her happiness, I would never prevent that from happening. Id have taken my kids and moved on.

Luckily it never came close to that.

------

OK, NG, Ill bite, what do you Alec Baldwin and Letterman have in common???
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Im trying to keep my postings of inspiration only to BH with wives who are remorseful and doing whatever it takes to keep their husbands around and the BH is in the purgatory that I dwelled (and unfortunately sometimes still find myself). Sort of the only stuff I know all about.

I sometimes get too jaded and too easily 'throw out' the WW who is foggy and not immediately snapped out of it on dday. I have little patience for that and its probably not fair to both the BH and his wife that I suggest separation without giving some of the initial MB steps a chance.

I love my wife as much as the next guy, but I will say this like I did last year, if there was anything less than full remorse, regret, and a overhaul of her way of life, mss would be gone. If what she was up to was what she wanted and central to her happiness, I would never prevent that from happening. Id have taken my kids and moved on.

Luckily it never came close to that.

------

OK, NG, Ill bite, what do you Alec Baldwin and Letterman have in common???
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 07/13/12 07:20 PM
I was wondering that too! (About NG's new sig)
Im on a rare business trip away for a week.

She texts to me the other night, "because I know you'll be mad, I invited (her female friend) over for coffee rather than going to Starbucks".

I went a little over the edge. I texted her back that it would have been better to say that she invited xxx over for coffee and leave it at that rather than implying its MY FAULT she cant go out.

I asked her if I need to remind her why she is no longer allowed to go for coffee with a friend.

I informed her that I spent the last 4 weeks leading up to my trip thinking about all my prior trips and how nothing was to stop her from making each of those nights a date night. And, how many of the coffee with a girlfriend evenings that I permitted and trusted her were to meet up with someone other than who she said she was meeting up with?

Now, to be clear my wife and her OM had a mind boggling amount of time to be alone during the daytime hours when she "worked" as his assistant so evening dates were somewhat rare but I do know that they certainly occurred.

I will not accept comments that in any way complain or in some form appear to place a blame on me for conditions I set to protect me. She has never said anything like this since dday and her commitment to us has not be in question.

I did have some anxiety about this trip with it being my first time away since dday. I didnt tell her as I felt it would be something I could keep to myself.

I quickly apologized.

Fifteen months since dday and despite living as close to MB principles as I can, Im still wrangling with anger and resentment. The biggest difference is I manage to keep it within me.

Some of the recent topics in the Forums have hit home and, in truth, have done a lot to anger me.

I bummed she did this to me. Simple as that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 07/19/12 03:26 AM
Sounds like the trip and coffee are triggers. Sorry for that.

Is there any way she can come to you for the remaining of the trip?
I wouldnt say the trip was a trigger in and of itself. Being on the other side of the country is. I have the trust, but when Im home I have a better ability to verify. Which is the way I live my life.

Its not possible for her to join me here. We thought about it but just not something we can manage.

I dont travel out of town too much any more.
Theres a long time poster who I find a must read. He doesnt appear on my thread but when he posts, however infrequently, I pay attention.

He appeals to a dark side of recovery that I fear I may have to live with forever. Not so much a fear of she doing this to me once again, I fear that very little.

He writes about a malaise, an indifference, over the marriage that I hope I never reach. His was a VLTA. Mine was also a LTA which Im sure only he and I would agree sets it apart from shorter term affairs. Its about a lifestyle our wives not only created, but suscribed to for months, then years. Maybe there is no difference about a drunken ONS while on convention in Vegas vs a LTA but to us, there is a major difference.

They made spending time both sexual and otherwise part of their normal existence. He mentioned a "lost decade" and, man, thats exactly how I refer to my wife's A. I look at photos of things we did at the time and I think, hey she was doing xxx at that time. And there are millions of things we did while she was with him. All tainted.

I have been trying desperately not to look back. This is the suggestion of many. I read something recently here about looking at the mountain behind as you move away. The mountain is certainly out in the distance but when its so huge, it seems to be taking forever to get away from it.

Mostly his posts are negative and stuff I do not need in my life. But, like a moth to a flame, I must read. In some bizarre way its nice to hear from someone fairly near my situation who is further down the road in recovery, as it were.

His questions are my questions.

I know the mantra and keys to success which perhaps he didnt fully adhere to or attempt to achieve. Tons of UA and meeting each needs. Im only 14 months post dday and maybe Im still allowed to feel some of the things he feels.

I fear I may feel these things still when I hit his stage in recovery.

I wonder how ofter a BH sticks around with his WW, who is amply remorseful and stands on her head to meet the BH's needs and is desperately seeking her H's love and acceptance, for years only to have him throw in the towel at some later point. He sticks around to give MB a chance or to see children off to school or marriage because he is a forgiving sort and doesnt think the kids deserve what their mother created.

Id be lying if I didnt say this is a pre-occupation of mine, sadly.

No need to ask: we are getting lots of alone time and theres been nothing to give me security concerns.
Easy metric: If your marriage isn't better THAN IT EVER WAS two years after beginning to apply MB principles, then it's probably time to "hang up the cleats", as Dr. Harley likes to say.

That's the litmus test I use to gauge that my marriage is joyfully MUCH better than ever. We still have a few profound warts, and about once a quarter I have an incredibly bad day that reminds me of times around D-Day, but compared even to our first year of marriage our marriage now is BLISSful.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling

I wonder how ofter a BH sticks around with his WW, who is amply remorseful and stands on her head to meet the BH's needs and is desperately seeking her H's love and acceptance, for years only to have him throw in the towel at some later point. He sticks around to give MB a chance or to see children off to school or marriage because he is a forgiving sort and doesnt think the kids deserve what their mother created.

Id be lying if I didnt say this is a pre-occupation of mine, sadly.

No need to ask: we are getting lots of alone time and theres been nothing to give me security concerns.


You are not alone, my man. Although my FWW A was 1-1/2 years (not nearly as long as your W’s), I have put much thought into this.

Been struggling with the ‘what if’s’ of our future.
I have recently come to terms with committing to myself that I will be the one that writes the chapters of my future.

Regardless of others experiences, good or bad, in R, my story is mine to make real. Sounds like your FWW has turned into a real gem, as mine has; Epitome of remorse and effort to R.
I’m determined to script the chapters of my future with optimism, hope and love. I know I can’t control anyone but myself.

Remorseful W, following MB’s to the letter of the law, feeling great about the changes I have made in myself and my ability to make good choices in the future. What else do we have?

We can ‘what if’ ourselves into misery if we aren’t careful.
Hello my friend, we meet again
It's been awhile, where should we begin?
Feels like forever
Within my heart are memories
Of perfect love that you gave to me
Oh, I remember

When you are with me, I'm free
I'm careless, I believe
Above all the others we'll fly
This brings tears to my eyes
My sacrifice

We've seen our share of ups and downs
Oh how quickly life can turn around
In an instant
It feels so good to reunite
Within yourself and within your mind
Let's find peace there

When you are with me, I'm free
I'm careless, I believe
Above all the others we'll fly
This brings tears to my eyes
My sacrifice

I just want to say hello again
I just want to say hello again

When you are with me I'm free
I'm careless, I believe
Above all the others we'll fly
This brings tears to my eyes
Cause when you are with me I am free
I'm careless, I believe
Above all the others we'll fly
This brings tears to my eyes
My sacrifice, My sacrifice

I just want to say hello again
I just want to say hello again

My sacrifice.


--Creed.
Heard this song today while on the road. Its probably a song about God which is good.

But, man when I had the windows down and the radio jacked up high, I was cruising down Rte 91 with it on and I was fist pumping and for the few minutes I was above worry, above the anger, and I was above it all.

I mean, I do have it on CD and can listen any time, but today with the sun out and road relatively empty and 65 mph speed limit it came on the radio and I had a moment.

Thought Id share.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 07/31/12 04:48 PM
Very nice, Mike, very nice!!!!

I'm someone who gets very emotionally involved with music, so I totally get this.

Try to really set that moment in your memory - with every sense (sight, smell, sound, etc...) so if you have a down moment, you can recall it easily.
1. 16Y Anniversary tomorrow.
2. Kids heading to my mom's for the night.
3. Couple bottles of her fave vino.
4. Single red rose.
5. Japanese food
6. Alone time.

I sent her a text this morning that I made plans for tomorrow for us which is something I never really did. Didnt give her any details.

She said that I have no idea how that makes her feel. Acceptance. Forgivness. Hope. She said she didnt want to get into a long sappy text but just to think that I made an effort to celebrate something so fragile like our marriage is making her tear up.

She didnt care if it was McDonalds and Michelobs on the back deck as long as we are together. (I told her its not hamburgers and beer. She said good, that would not have thrilled her.)

Love bank brimming with good stuff.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/03/12 04:03 PM
Great job, Mike!

It is always a special treat to have your spouse plan something nice as a surprise. smile
I have a female cousin who I respect a lot. She's my age but has a wealth of wisdom beyond our years. She has a forthrightness I appreciate at the same time is one of the more positive and inspiring people I know. Two things that my wife is a bit jealous of though she;ll never admit it.

She does not know about the A.

My cousin called me to tell me about her husband's serious medical condition and about her daughter's battles with an eating disorder. Two things that shattered an image THAT ONLY I HELD of a 'perfect' life.

After I took my wife to a BnB last year after dday we came home and went straight to my cousins house for a party. My cousin somehow seemed to know something was amiss with me despite being in a good mood. I am 100% sure she does not know about the A, but she took me to the side and was talking about being happy and life. She's really perceptive. I was close to telling her about my issues, but decided not to.

I told my wife that my cousin called and out of nowhere my wife suggested I speak to my cousin about the A. My wife said she knows i respect my couin's thoughts and that maybe she can further inspire our recovery. My wife went on to say that she is comfortable in the fact that she has done everything and will continue to do everything to make our marriage great. She said again the A will not define who she is, but only who she was. If speaking to my cousin, who has an ability to inspire, will make me happy, then my wife said its something i should do.

I told my wife I appreciate what she said, but the fewer people who know the better. Maybe in 5 years, ill be able to matter of factly talk about it. Still too fresh. But, I again learn that my wife is in a good place mentally. Lucky her.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/07/12 04:43 PM
Why do you take the view that "the fewer people who know the better?" (especially when it comes to close family, who can offer their support and wisdom to you)
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Why do you take the view that "the fewer people who know the better?" (especially when it comes to close family, who can offer their support and wisdom to you)


An excellent question considering my wife suggested I speak to my cousin.

Im embarassed for my wife and me. I still have a lingering feeling of being a moron for letting this happen under my nose. Trying to maintain some pride in a pride-less situation.

I still have what I would say are fairly good friends I havent spoken to in over 18 months for fear they may have heard something thru the grapevine. This solely my issue, I know.

I still may talk to my cousin and open the line of conversation with my long lost friends at some point. We'll see.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/07/12 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Why do you take the view that "the fewer people who know the better?" (especially when it comes to close family, who can offer their support and wisdom to you)


An excellent question considering my wife suggested I speak to my cousin.

Im embarassed for my wife and me. I still have a lingering feeling of being a moron for letting this happen under my nose. Trying to maintain some pride in a pride-less situation.

I still have what I would say are fairly good friends I havent spoken to in over 18 months for fear they may have heard something thru the grapevine. This solely my issue, I know.

I still may talk to my cousin and open the line of conversation with my long lost friends at some point. We'll see.


I do remember from earlier in your thread you having the issue with friends - I didn't realize it was with family as well.

Here's the thing: getting over your embarrassment is probably something that would help you IMMENSELY in recovery, for all kinds of reasons!

It's perfectly acceptable to not go out and tell the whole world. Although, some people do as they feel that "speaking out" will help others, once they (as a couple) have come to terms with everything.

There's a difference in that though and in harboring shame - which is where you are still at with this aspect. Shame is a very negative emotion which will eat you alive!

I know how embarrassed I first felt with all of this. I think I've mentioned to you that my now 18 year old told the whole dang church youth group - which, I'm sure, made it back to their parents. I used to run into people and wonder what on earth they must think. Finally, I came to grips with the fact that people weren't judging me or even my H, esp. once we'd reconciled. I had a small group of friends IRL that I'd told along with family members. They were all SO much support! When they saw how hard we fought, they talked of how much admiration they had for where we'd been and where we now were.

Mostly, you will find that if you choose to share with people that it will make you closer with them.

I was surprised when I shared with others how much I got back in return. I found people would "reciprocate" even - telling me what had happened in their lives. One friend I'd had for YEARS confided in me that her H was an alcoholic - I would have never known. Another shared her own story of infidelity - and I was able to tell her about MB and really help her out. ALL of these friends have been GREAT to H too.

With my husband, he was able to use the experience to share HNHN with other men and advise them of what NOT to do when they found themselves unhappy in their marriages.

Of course, we have only confided in people who were trustworthy. (Well, except for people who found out through the kids.)

I even came to grips with that: the kids had the right to have support too - after all, it was their truth as well.

I'm going on about this because I feel, Mike, that this could be a real breakthrough issue for you! If you can face this shame and overcome it, I think you will overcome A LOT of the negative feelings you still have. Just my opinion.

Why? Because this shame and "how could I let this happen" is a very root cause of the negativity you still experience.

I've seen books around that talk about overcoming shame, esp. for men. I think it would do you a world of good!
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Here's the thing: getting over your embarrassment is probably something that would help you IMMENSELY in recovery, for all kinds of reasons!

There's a difference in that though and in harboring shame - which is where you are still at with this aspect. Shame is a very negative emotion which will eat you alive!

I'm going on about this because I feel, Mike, that this could be a real breakthrough issue for you! If you can face this shame and overcome it, I think you will overcome A LOT of the negative feelings you still have. Just my opinion.

Why? Because this shame and "how could I let this happen" is a very root cause of the negativity you still experience.

I've seen books around that talk about overcoming shame, esp. for men. I think it would do you a world of good!



Thank you. No one really has put their finger quite like you did. I have nothing but shame. Hers and mine, I own it all. What's really something is she has little or no shame. She just is. She wont let her history affect her today or tomorrow. I wish I was more like her in that way.

I appreciate the thoughts and, man, you hit the nail on the head. Shame may be just what is holding me back from whatever is next. Shame is what is letting my harbor negativity.

Just had a Dr. Phil moment, seriously.

Ill work on this because despite wanting more of this and more of that, this shame I carry for both us is slowing down the works.

Thanks, I needed that.

mss
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/08/12 02:41 AM
Glad I could be of help, Mike.

There's a lot to the shame dynamic, esp. in men - going back to primal days. I won't go into it as it may all seem like psycho-babble which would deter from the MB message. But - I really do think this is what's holding you back!

It might even be worth emailing or calling the radio show to ask if there's a recommendation on dealing with this issue - and to ask how your wife can help you with this.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Here's the thing: getting over your embarrassment is probably something that would help you IMMENSELY in recovery, for all kinds of reasons!

There's a difference in that though and in harboring shame - which is where you are still at with this aspect. Shame is a very negative emotion which will eat you alive!

I'm going on about this because I feel, Mike, that this could be a real breakthrough issue for you! If you can face this shame and overcome it, I think you will overcome A LOT of the negative feelings you still have. Just my opinion.

Why? Because this shame and "how could I let this happen" is a very root cause of the negativity you still experience.

I've seen books around that talk about overcoming shame, esp. for men. I think it would do you a world of good!



Thank you. No one really has put their finger quite like you did. I have nothing but shame. Hers and mine, I own it all. What's really something is she has little or no shame. She just is. She wont let her history affect her today or tomorrow. I wish I was more like her in that way.

I appreciate the thoughts and, man, you hit the nail on the head. Shame may be just what is holding me back from whatever is next. Shame is what is letting my harbor negativity.

Just had a Dr. Phil moment, seriously.

Ill work on this because despite wanting more of this and more of that, this shame I carry for both us is slowing down the works.

Thanks, I needed that.

mss


MSS

Glad to see progress! it is encouraging.

CV
We were talking about that app in iPhone that lets another iPhone or iPad trace it's movements. A friend who doesn't know of the a makes the obvious yet innocent remark that how that would be good to catch cheating spouses.

Sucks when that happens and it will happen again and again.
And maybe it has relevance to the earlier set of posts about shame.

Maybe we should tell this couple and many more about it and thus reduce my shame? That would then eliminate even subtle allusions to infidelity down the road. We'll remove that line of conversation.

Yet shell wear the scarlet letter and I can't have that.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/12/12 02:44 PM
Yet shell wear the scarlet letter and I can't have that.

Balance is everything in recovery, MSS. Taking your marriage and drawing a boundary around it, you should (together) judge which actions will best protect what's inside. A small, and infrequent "ding" to the armor on your side, should be easier to jointly withstand than a massive blow on her side which may result (one friend -> all friends -> entire community).

You withstood that comment. FWW appreciates your strength all the more. Good thing! Move forward!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/12/12 07:43 PM
Getting rid of the shame isn't just about telling others about the A, but in overcoming it so that the innocent "digs" have little effect.

Of course, you SHOULD be able to tell others that will support you and your marriage. It's up to you and your w to determine who that might be.

In my case, it still stings a bit when people make reference to infidelity, but now - H and I just grab each other's hands with a little squeeze. To us it means, "that's in the past; we're so thankful we now have each other and always will." I will admit though, it did take time to get to that place.

It's important to use discernment in this matters. NG is right: balance is key here.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
We were talking about that app in iPhone that lets another iPhone or iPad trace it's movements.


"Find my iPhone" is a free app from Apple that works really well. No stealth or subterfuge needed if your spouse has a bunch of little category menus they file things into and promptly forget about them. Install it, register it, make sure it's turned on in Location Services, and then at any time if you want to see where your spouse is.

For instance, my wife's phone is with her at our house right now. Can see it on a map clear as day with "Find my Iphone".
You may be missing the point. Im not interested in tracking her despite it being real easy nowadays.

I was referring to occasional mention of cheating, infidelity, and what have you among our friends.

Someone had an 'aha' moment when they realized the potential of such a tracking solution.

It will always be one of those uncomfortable moments when the topic of adutery is broached.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/13/12 10:09 PM
Unfortunately, infidelity is all around us. I now realize that. Is it being ultrasensitive to it or was it there all along and we just didn't realize it?

In any case, telling all your friends about the A, will not change the constant media barrage and likewise in regards to infidelity. So, those little dings in the armor will continue to come.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/13/12 10:13 PM
FYI I have that 'shame' too. VERY few people know about H's A, or my RA or anything in between. In my case it is embarrassment for people to know that we have 'that' kind of marriage, and shame for not leaving. Oh well, we'll get there someday perhaps.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/13/12 10:52 PM
There are some good books out there on the subject of "toxic shame" but I would not feel comfortable recommending one that I haven't read myself - which I have not yet done.

Of course, as long as you continue to work the MB program, it will lessen with time and when the subject comes up (as it often does - as UW points out) you will turn to each other in solidarity. I can't say you will feel a sense of pride or accomplishment - that might be reaching a bit - but you at least have a sense of facing it down together. Then, it doesn't affect you so much when it comes up.
We went to dinner at a cousin's house the other night. No one there is in the know of the A except my mother.

My cousin who is the salt of the earth (I think I mentioned her a few weeks ago) was telling a very innocent story of her family friend. This friend called her last week to tell that she saw my cousins husband in her town on 2 occasions this summer getting off the train. They live about 30 minutes from each other and in no way should my cousin's husband be using that train stop.

"I think your husband is having an affair, Ive seen him now 2x getting off the train here. I just HAVE to tell you."

My cousin, "my husband's cancer doctor is in the town and I meet him there for his weekly appointment after work."

"Oh."

Anyway, I guess everyone laughing at how silly the concept of a possible affair was got to my wife. She disappeared for 30 minutes. I found her in the car crying.

She felt stuck with title adulterer and no matter how much she wants it be gone, there is nothing that will erase it. I told her I learned from here that once you stop adultery you are no longer an adulterer.

What was wierd about it was we have been around inuendo and direct talk of affairs and cheating since dday and it was only this time that it got to her.

I do, however, like to see the emotion because sometimes her stoic and even hardened exterior reminds me of someone she USED to be. I didnt tell her this.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/20/12 03:06 PM
*warning, the following is absolute postulation, and in no manner should be taken as a demonstration of psychic powers or communication with the dead*

The story brought on this; the thought that someone appeared to be doing something that demonstrated a lack of integrity, yet that was not the case, and this person has retained their integrity.

In other words, the flow of thought may have been; "This guy appeared to be fooling around, but he was not. I can't make that statement about myself."

------


My W posted here for a short time... and used to read it daily.

However, this became a daily reminder of the havoc a handful of horrible choices, and a cornucopia of lies put forth into our lives.

What was even harder for her to face, is the occasional appearance of people who are on the narrow cusp of full-on betrayal.

It made her nuts to look and see someone on the edge of the mistake she made who had enough sense to stop for one second - like a flash in time - to cry out for help and say "I know what I am doing is wrong, how do I stop!?!?"

Good 'ol hindsight.


It's like going to a horror movie and listening to the people yell at the screen.

"DON'T GO THROUGH THAT DOOR! THE MONSTER IS THERE! IT'S GONNA KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLL YOU!!!!


And at the same time, they wish in hindsight that they had that opportunity for themselves.


I know that I am, for sure, not envious of that position.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 08/20/12 04:06 PM
I agree with HHH's assessment. The one thing that surprises me is how it bothers my H more than it does me when infidelity stuff pops up now.

I can totally relate to your comment, MSS, that you would rather see your wife with some emotion over this rather than just being a stone. I have felt that way too, at times. I think it just boils down to the fact that many times a FWS have to be that stone in order to not crumble under the weight of what they did.
I used to see it has "uncaring" when we were first in recovery but I came to change my mind about it. It is because H cared that he *had* to become that stone.
I got a bday email from OMW this week. After her poison laden anniversary letter in May where among a lot of bull doo doo she suggested we never have contact again and I concurred, it came as a somewhat of surprise.

I say somewhat because she was always good at remembering birthdays and I in truth in my endless mind wanderings while driving for work I sometimes envisioned how I would respond to a bday "hello". Probably because I felt my watered down reply to her treatise she sent on the Yr 1 anniversary was not a sufficient 'setting things straight' retort. My wife asked me to not send the ferocious reply I had crafted. Cooler heads (my wife's) prevailed and I sent a simple 'have a nice life'.

Again today I wrote up a fairly toxic email more or less telling her to drop dead. Ive have 4 months to get my thoughts clear and although I had to concur with what she wrote in about 15% of her email, I had to show her 85% was excrement.

Most of her email was directed at my W and justifiably so but she also took time to rip me apart. She also place virtually all of the blame of the affair on my wife. She made no mention of the 2nd woman on her husband phone bj'ing him in another set of videos. I had to ask her about this stuff.

It was a cathartic experience. Made me feel great.

I told my wife about the OMW bday email. I told her about my intended response.

She asked me to ignore her email. So I did and deleted it without sending it.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/12 06:44 PM
HappyBirthday and sorry for the email from OMW.

What about blocking her?
Thanks.

Blocking her wouldnt be prudent as its best to keep some form of communication if she gets the feeling her deviant may be looking for action. (Which I think is inevitable.)
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/12 08:30 PM
Severed animal head in her bed? I think I saw that in a movie once...

At this point if you are sure your FWW would not EVER have anything to do with this POSOM again (and it has always sounded like that is the case), I would say blocking OMW and getting rid of that toxic trigger would be a better option than keeping her around just in case.

And happy birthday.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/06/12 10:57 PM
Hope you have (had?) a great birthday, Mike!

I would lean towards blocking the email too. Do you really think it is inevitable that POSOM will try and contact your wife?
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


Do you really think it is inevitable that POSOM will try and contact your wife?



I have no worries about him contacting my wife for several reasons. The first being how they got caught, namely secretly videoing my wife doing him, was fairly damaging to an already damaged relationship and that was the death knell of it. Next, I made it clear to him that any form of contact from him to her would be very bad for him.

Im convinced he'll go looking for other action elsewhere and if OMW feels this I want to just want to tell her that it aint my wife.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/12 11:36 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


Do you really think it is inevitable that POSOM will try and contact your wife?



I have no worries about him contacting my wife for several reasons. The first being how they got caught, namely secretly videoing my wife doing him, was fairly damaging to an already damaged relationship and that was the death knell of it. Next, I made it clear to him that any form of contact from him to her would be very bad for him.

Im convinced he'll go looking for other action elsewhere and if OMW feels this I want to just want to tell her that it aint my wife.


Also if the call comes from the OMW that she suspects her WH is at it again the BH can make sense why his WW is acting off again. So both sides can warn each other.

Instead of them going NC, I call it SC, suspended contact, the BS's have exchanged all useful info and there is no longer any need for contact so the go SC. Because there can be a future need to verify that each other's WS maybe on the hunt again.

Just to find out that is it the old AP's restarting the old PA, or has one AP started with a new AP. Helps jump start the investigation.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/12 02:08 PM
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


Do you really think it is inevitable that POSOM will try and contact your wife?



I have no worries about him contacting my wife for several reasons. The first being how they got caught, namely secretly videoing my wife doing him, was fairly damaging to an already damaged relationship and that was the death knell of it. Next, I made it clear to him that any form of contact from him to her would be very bad for him.

Im convinced he'll go looking for other action elsewhere and if OMW feels this I want to just want to tell her that it aint my wife.


Also if the call comes from the OMW that she suspects her WH is at it again the BH can make sense why his WW is acting off again. So both sides can warn each other.

Instead of them going NC, I call it SC, suspended contact, the BS's have exchanged all useful info and there is no longer any need for contact so the go SC. Because there can be a future need to verify that each other's WS maybe on the hunt again.

Just to find out that is it the old AP's restarting the old PA, or has one AP started with a new AP. Helps jump start the investigation.


But if Mike has already asked her not to contact him again, and she continues to in a triggering and even hostile way it sounds, then it seems to be less of a helpful contact and more of a hinderance to recovery, doesn't it?

If Mike has faith his FWW would never start up this relationship again, and therefore blocks POSOMW (is that a new one, in this case I just can't find it in myself to not add POS in the front for this man bc he really seems like one), and then POSOM DOES go on the prowl again, who cares if she thinks it might be with Mike's W if its NOT. I don't think its his job to help convince her its not in that case, its his job to recover and protect his own M.

I totally see the reason for having the AP's BS as a long term affiliate for the 'just in case' but that doesn't seem like a high liklihood here and it seems like more damage is done than is avoided by this contact. So, I see both sides. Its up to Mike based on how well he trusts the situation, I guess.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/12 02:22 PM
Unwritten,

POSOMW

I'm not sure it's fair to call OMW a POSOMW, from all of Mikes descriptions, OM is a manipulative person who uses and abuses people for his own entertainment much like a cult leader.

I've seen many persons like OM who are charming and slowly take over every aspect of their victims lives, convincing them to do things they would otherwise not do of their own free will, and against their upbringing and morals.

In a sense it was not OMW who wrote that but a automaton writing for OM.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/12 02:42 PM
Oh I meant it as POSOM's BW, not that OMW was a POS...LOL. This is why creating acronyms should be left to the professionals.

But, as far as OMW. I can totally understand how the human mind, even that of an adult, is easily twisted by a manipulator. But, I always hate to give adults an excuse for their behavior. The communication has come from HER not HIM and she should be held accountable for it.

And if she is so twisted by him and is speaking on behalf of him, then she is toxic to be in contact with, IMO.

Just want Mike to do what is best for his own recovery, getting this entire family as far away from him and his lovely W as possible seems like the best answer, to me.
Originally Posted By: Gamma

I've seen many persons like OM who are charming and slowly take over every aspect of their victims lives, convincing them to do things they would otherwise not do of their own free will, and against their upbringing and morals.

In a sense it was not OMW who wrote that but a automaton writing for OM.



Few have described my wife's LTA partner as accurately as this. Except for my wife.

And, to read that his wife a year after watching 25+ videos of him getting serviced by 2 different women now blames the woman fully, your post is very salient.

He has a svengali-type effect on his women. My wife was caught up in all the nice thing he did for her, and paid for her. His wife, however, is an earner herself so monetary things were not a major factor, but she is incapable of doing things for herself so after a lot years of marriage, he did everything for them even the most menial of tasks like food shopping. (This made my wife very jealous, by the way.) And, he got off on providing and doing thing for all his girls, too.

So, when I read her email in May, I was impressed that it only took him a year to convince his wife that his multiple LTA's were not of his doing. And, she is so convinced she put it in writing.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/07/12 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Oh I meant it as POSOM's BW, not that OMW was a POS...LOL. This is why creating acronyms should be left to the professionals.

But, as far as OMW. I can totally understand how the human mind, even that of an adult, is easily twisted by a manipulator. But, I always hate to give adults an excuse for their behavior. The communication has come from HER not HIM and she should be held accountable for it.

And if she is so twisted by him and is speaking on behalf of him, then she is toxic to be in contact with, IMO.

Just want Mike to do what is best for his own recovery, getting this entire family as far away from him and his lovely W as possible seems like the best answer, to me.


I agree with this!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/08/12 02:47 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


Do you really think it is inevitable that POSOM will try and contact your wife?



I have no worries about him contacting my wife for several reasons. The first being how they got caught, namely secretly videoing my wife doing him, was fairly damaging to an already damaged relationship and that was the death knell of it. Next, I made it clear to him that any form of contact from him to her would be very bad for him.

Im convinced he'll go looking for other action elsewhere and if OMW feels this I want to just want to tell her that it aint my wife.


Also if the call comes from the OMW that she suspects her WH is at it again the BH can make sense why his WW is acting off again. So both sides can warn each other.

Instead of them going NC, I call it SC, suspended contact, the BS's have exchanged all useful info and there is no longer any need for contact so the go SC. Because there can be a future need to verify that each other's WS maybe on the hunt again.

Just to find out that is it the old AP's restarting the old PA, or has one AP started with a new AP. Helps jump start the investigation.


But if Mike has already asked her not to contact him again, and she continues to in a triggering and even hostile way it sounds, then it seems to be less of a helpful contact and more of a hinderance to recovery, doesn't it?

If Mike has faith his FWW would never start up this relationship again, and therefore blocks POSOMW (is that a new one, in this case I just can't find it in myself to not add POS in the front for this man bc he really seems like one), and then POSOM DOES go on the prowl again, who cares if she thinks it might be with Mike's W if its NOT. I don't think its his job to help convince her its not in that case, its his job to recover and protect his own M.

I totally see the reason for having the AP's BS as a long term affiliate for the 'just in case' but that doesn't seem like a high liklihood here and it seems like more damage is done than is avoided by this contact. So, I see both sides. Its up to Mike based on how well he trusts the situation, I guess.


It has nothing to do with mikes faith in his WW.
History on MB has shown that some affairs do restart.
The odds may be very high in mikes favor that a restart won't happen. But whether 1:100 or even 1:1,000,000 there is the chance things can go bad.

All it takes is for a BH to get sloppy in verifying NC. Combine the WW becoming aware she is not being monitored well and her life hits a low spot, wham it's game on again.

Remember a WW hid her affair well the last time will be able to keep her BH off the scent again. A heads up from the OMW/OWH (depending)can give the BH/BW a much needed wake up call.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/08/12 01:45 PM
I agree about the 'faith' part and didn't mean to suggest he rely on faith alone. Just that in this particular sitch, where the OMW is very toxic, continues to reach out to him in a toxic way, and may very well be the puppet behind the puppeteer of the POSOM, then it is really more weighing the risk of not allowing contact with her vs the risk of allowing it. Is the risk of option 1 worth the risk of the continued toxic pokes. In this sitch I think not, but that is just my opinion.
The Omw has not continually reached out to me. Didn't think I construed that. Her anniversary letter to us was toxic but it was one of only 2 or 3 contacts she's made to us since dday. Her bday note to me was her only contact since the anniversary letter and was nothing but cordial. My w was not copied on that either.

I deleted her email and no reply sent per my w wishes.

Also, my wife called omw crazy and I should ignore her. A younger me, like me a year ago, would have taken the opp to remind her she was screwing Omw's husband in omw's bed for several years and that tends to make someone mad.

But I didn't go there. Ive grown.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/09/12 05:03 PM
I have not grown because I would of pointed out that WW look you were banging OM for years in OMW bed, that is going to make OMW unhinged and spouting all kinds of anger towards you.

WW, do you think that the OMW should get down on her hands an knees, kiss your ass, and apologize to you for her wanting you to end your affair with her WH would be an appropriate reaction? Is this what you want the OMW to do?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/09/12 09:40 PM
WW, do you think that the OMW should get down on her hands an knees, kiss your ass, and apologize to you for her wanting you to end your affair with her WH would be an appropriate reaction? Is this what you want the OMW to do?

TR, every once in a while the suspicion develops that you've slipped off your medication...again!

Please take adequate care of yourself, okay?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/10/12 12:51 AM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
WW, do you think that the OMW should get down on her hands an knees, kiss your ass, and apologize to you for her wanting you to end your affair with her WH would be an appropriate reaction? Is this what you want the OMW to do?

TR, every once in a while the suspicion develops that you've slipped off your medication...again!

Please take adequate care of yourself, okay?



The OMW should not be stalking his WW. But if this WW wants to get mad at this OMW for being a third person in her marriage she has no right to complain at the OMW's anger. For this WW made herself a third party in the OMW marriage and the OM a third party into her on marriage.

This WW made herself a third party twice over what the OMW did.
This WW turned what was an ok marriage, or a passable marriage for the OMW into a daily nightmare for this BW.

MSS's WW had the fun of her affair. Is now getting the benefits of a MB recovered marriage, and wants to be pissed off at the OMW.

This is not about meds. And I support MSS and his using MB and recovering his marriage.

I don't support his WW having no compassion for the OMW.
Originally Posted By: TheRoad


The OMW should not be stalking his WW. But if this WW wants to get mad at this OMW for being a third person in her marriage she has no right to complain at the OMW's anger. For this WW made herself a third party in the OMW marriage and the OM a third party into her on marriage.

This WW made herself a third party twice over what the OMW did.
This WW turned what was an ok marriage, or a passable marriage for the OMW into a daily nightmare for this BW.

MSS's WW had the fun of her affair. Is now getting the benefits of a MB recovered marriage, and wants to be pissed off at the OMW.

This is not about meds. And I support MSS and his using MB and recovering his marriage.

I don't support his WW having no compassion for the OMW.



I think I get your point.

She's not what you called 'pissed' at omw. She embarrassed at what she's done to her. My w is desperate not to have these memories pop up in my head with contact from the Omw. Pissed is not accurate. Scared may be a better word.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/10/12 11:27 AM
TR, the point is MSS and FWW are now rebuilding their own marriage. OMW's opinion of FWW is not material to the task before them. (If OMW were here we could counsel her on her own approach to her recovery, but she's not.)

But where you derive the thought that Mrs MSS is expecting OMW to NOT resent her late adulterous intrusion into the OM/OMW marriage is a mystery. The issue here is Mrs MSS having the right to resent current intrusions back.

Assuming no suspicions of recontact or similar exigencies, they should maintain NC with the entire OM clan. Mrs. MSS should rightly fear and resent OMW's periodic, "Hi, MSS, how are things with you and your slut-wife-from-Hell-who ruined-my-life?" initiatives.

And oh, btw, so should MSS.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/10/12 12:51 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted By: TheRoad


The OMW should not be stalking his WW. But if this WW wants to get mad at this OMW for being a third person in her marriage she has no right to complain at the OMW's anger. For this WW made herself a third party in the OMW marriage and the OM a third party into her on marriage.

This WW made herself a third party twice over what the OMW did.
This WW turned what was an ok marriage, or a passable marriage for the OMW into a daily nightmare for this BW.

MSS's WW had the fun of her affair. Is now getting the benefits of a MB recovered marriage, and wants to be pissed off at the OMW.

This is not about meds. And I support MSS and his using MB and recovering his marriage.

I don't support his WW having no compassion for the OMW.



I think I get your point.

She's not what you called 'pissed' at omw. She embarrassed at what she's done to her. My w is desperate not to have these memories pop up in my head with contact from the Omw. Pissed is not accurate. Scared may be a better word.


Thank you for taking the time I now get yours.
I could live forever without hearing from OMW. After her email in May when she attacked me with some personal junk, she lost her option to be someone who can correspond with me even if its once or twice a year with 'Happy Birthdays' or etc. Now, Id just like to know when she leaves him. This I can hear thru whatever remnants of a grapevine that still exists.

I deleted her email unreplied to.

I doubt Ill be hearing from her again.

Case closed.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/10/12 01:07 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
The issue here is Mrs MSS having the right to resent current intrusions back.



My earlier response was to the way I understood what MSS wrote.

As to what I see the heart of what you have just posted is that the old saying applies. Once you open pandora's box you can't undo what happens, you can't put it back into the box.

Her actions set OMW loose. His WW struck the first blow.

Is the OMW suppose to turn the other cheek?

Or is she allowed to up the stakes to get pay back?

Said by MSS: "She's not what you called 'pissed' at omw. She embarrassed at what she's done to her. My w is desperate not to have these memories pop up in my head with contact from the Omw. Pissed is not accurate. Scared may be a better word."

MSS WW is scared and relizes her wrong does nothing to change the circumstances that her actions set the OMW on the lose after her butt.

I sorry for some one to feel the pain and get left with scares. But when your torment a dog don't complain that the dog tore into you.

Yes you can learn from one's mistakes and have regret but you can't get mad at the dog.
My wife (or in fact, we) would prefer not to hear from OMW no matter how infrequent these contacts have occurred.

She does understand what she did to incite this person to lose her mind. That wasnt lost on my W at any time. We both dont understand that after giving us a big "F-Off" in a her email in May when SHE said we shouldnt have any further contact that she felt it necessary to wish me happy birthday.

My wife who has exempified the MB principles without even need to read every word of them understands that this contact from OMW to me simply opens up wounds that could be on the course to healing.

I never expect OMW to forgive my wife nor does my wife. All my wife can do is stay her course and hope OMW someday will be able to move on. My wife knows every contact to me doesnt help this.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/10/12 06:53 PM
My last post MSS was not to get you to come back and address this again. It was aimed at NG.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/11/12 04:02 AM
Whew! It just missed me, dude!

The issue with entertaining OMW's barbs and arrows is that they are directed from outside MSS's "marital circle" at his spouse. He does have spousal responsibility to protect her. He's not supposed to (and HAS NOT, to his credit) stand by and let the missiles strike his FWW, shaking his head and saying, "You deserved that, and that, and OH YEAH, that one too!"

You also must be aware of the likelihood that OMW's vitriol is elevated by her inability to adequately address her rage with OM. Transferring that emotion to Mrs MSS is so easy, unless MSS prevents its efficacy. If she isn't allowed to get through to (at?) Mrs MSS, perhaps she'll be forced to look at her own WH's culpability in this sordid swamp.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/11/12 07:37 PM
There is nothing entertaining about the OMW venting.

Yes there needs to be NC between the guilty and innocent because the repeated verbal abuse is just continuing the abuse of the affair.

MSSWW ran this OMW ship aground onto the rocks. This woman is stuck and broken. OMW only knows how to respond by lashing out at MSSWW.

All this woman sees is MSSWW sailing away on a newly rebuilt boat. This OMW sees no justice. She is not getting her just compensation.

Thing is though MSSWW threw manure into a fan and now wants to complain that she's getting hit by the manure.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/11/12 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
TR, the point is MSS and FWW are now rebuilding their own marriage. OMW's opinion of FWW is not material to the task before them. (If OMW were here we could counsel her on her own approach to her recovery, but she's not.)

But where you derive the thought that Mrs MSS is expecting OMW to NOT resent her late adulterous intrusion into the OM/OMW marriage is a mystery. The issue here is Mrs MSS having the right to resent current intrusions back.

Assuming no suspicions of recontact or similar exigencies, they should maintain NC with the entire OM clan. Mrs. MSS should rightly fear and resent OMW's periodic, "Hi, MSS, how are things with you and your slut-wife-from-Hell-who ruined-my-life?" initiatives.

And oh, btw, so should MSS.


Exactly. The time has passed for MSS or Mrs.MSS to continue to be concerned with the OM or OMW. Best to stay totally clear of them at this point, and concentrate on their own lives!
The only point of mentioning the bday email was that exact point. Whats the point of a bday email after her email of May?

There has been no continued contact between anyone since dday. OMW sent 2 emails after dday which were brutal. My wife apologized in a reply to the first. This was my wifes only contact.

If OMW gets torment because my wife got to get her cake by dating her husband and eating it too by having fairly stable recovery after getting caught, then thats too bad.

My wife is trying to live a different life than what she used to live. She is not trying to impress anyone but is hoping to show to anyone who is in the know that he meant nothing to her and it was an aberration. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial.

She believes it.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/11/12 10:55 PM
Again I am responding to NG not you.

"If OMW gets torment because my wife got to get her cake by dating her husband and eating it too by having fairly stable recovery after getting caught, then thats too bad."

So if MSSWW ran a stop sign and killed a person she is to totally block it out?

Or it is ok to block it out because the person here car struck was a bad person anyway?





Your WW messed up this persons life in one of the worse ways possible and all you can say "then that's too bad'?






"My wife is trying to live a different life than what she used to live. She is not trying to impress anyone but is hoping to show to anyone who is in the know that he meant nothing to her and it was an aberration. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial. She believes it."

I believe what you have written. Never doubted your belief in what you have posted.

Because your WW is making amends to you does nothing to alleviate the plight that she put the OMW in.

You are having what you feel is your just compensation. The OMW got robbed and niether of her thieves have had to make any retribution to her. She is bitter because she has not gotten her just compensation.


"There has been no continued contact between anyone since dday. OMW sent 2 emails after dday which were brutal. My wife apologized in a reply to the first. This was my wifes only contact."


MSS,you have been here long enough to read many times that to a BS hearing an apology from the OP was unwanted, and unvalued. As giving a ice to and Eskimo.

I'll close that I was responding and debating with NG.
Sorry, I am just having trouble following the debate.
And, TR, what you wrote just above is obvious.

Never, ever said OWM is a bad person. Never even imagined she deserved what my w did to her.

Dont expect my wife apology to be accepted and things to be byegones.

We are living ours, she should continue to live hers. And per her May email, never the twain should mix. Im good with that.

I was just questioning the birthday not, is all.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 02:07 PM
MSS's wife has done all she could to offer just compensation to OMW: she stopped seeing OM and she offered up a heartfelt apology. That's all she can do. It is no longer her job to carry that guilt around when she has changed her life completely and devoted it to her family. Of course, it follows that OMW doesn't have to forgive MSS's wife. However, nothing more Mrs. MSS can do on that front.

It is POISON for MSS or his wife to continue to subject themselves to the OM in any way, including OMW. There is nothing else to be done except for OM to clean up his own side of the street and offer up just compensation himself.

I know I certainly didn't look to my H's skank to make amends to me...and still don't. Heck, didn't even get an apology.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 02:40 PM
MSS,

I think your W understands that she now has to accept her consequences brought on by her actions.

It's just a shame that when your W got sucked into this OMs lifestyle she didn't understand that in some ways she would be linked to OM and his family for the rest of her life. It's a bit like quitting smoking it takes awhile to get the stink out of the drapes.

God Bless
Gamma
Originally Posted By: Gamma
MSS,

I think your W understands that she now has to accept her consequences brought on by her actions.

It's just a shame that when your W got sucked into this OMs lifestyle she didn't understand that in some ways she would be linked to OM and his family for the rest of her life. It's a bit like quitting smoking it takes awhile to get the stink out of the drapes.

God Bless
Gamma


She has accepted responsibility minute 1 of dday. Made no excuses. And has taken the slings and arrows.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
MSS's wife has done all she could to offer just compensation to OMW: she stopped seeing OM and she offered up a heartfelt apology. That's all she can do. It is no longer her job to carry that guilt around when she has changed her life completely and devoted it to her family.



Saying I sorry I had SF with OM, and I have stopped having SF with OM, and will not have SF with the OM any more is not just compensation. Yes MSSWW can't do anything besides that. But because it is all she can do does not make it enough because all the damage she created is never going to be repaired.

As an example if instead of being a WW she was a drunk. Got in her car and killed a mother.

After the accident she goes to AA, never drinks again. Is the mother's orphan to accept that as just compensation?

Yes a WW has to put the affair and the extra people involved in the past to function and to heal and have a good life post dday.

So the orphan sees the Xdrunk driver years later, in a public place, loses control and calls the XD a murderer.

You're saying the orphan is not to express anger at the XD?
The XD is entitled to be mad at the orphan for bringing up bad memories?

In the movie Fatal Attraction their is nothing but sympathy for the BW and COM. The WH affair brought all this craziness on to his family.

Well MSSWW affair created a reverse bunny boiler. She started a war with the OMW. Problem when you start a war the other party is not obilgated to stop when you tire and want to stop and go home. Also if the WW wanted to only use fists the WW can't expect the OMW to fight by her rules and not show up with a gun.

In general when a WW sows her seeds she does not get to complain that her harvest is a reverse bunny boiler. The WW does not get to paint herself a victim.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 05:56 PM
The WW does not get to paint herself a victim.

She most certainly does not have the right to claim "victimhood" from the direct and close-derivative results of her own actions. ("Oh, woe! My husband left me when he discovered I was banging the milkman!")

She does, however, have the expectation of non-interference in her marriage from a third-party - OMW. It would be more supportable if OMW were to instigate a hair-pulling cat-fight, one-to-one in some parking lot. But OMW sending snarky letters to MSS IN A BLATENT ATTEMPT TO DERAIL HIS RECOVERING MARRIAGE, is inappropriate. Fortunately, MSS understands that. clap
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
MSS's wife has done all she could to offer just compensation to OMW: she stopped seeing OM and she offered up a heartfelt apology. That's all she can do. It is no longer her job to carry that guilt around when she has changed her life completely and devoted it to her family.



Saying I sorry I had SF with OM, and I have stopped having SF with OM, and will not have SF with the OM any more is not just compensation. Yes MSSWW can't do anything besides that. But because it is all she can do does not make it enough because all the damage she created is never going to be repaired.

As an example if instead of being a WW she was a drunk. Got in her car and killed a mother.

After the accident she goes to AA, never drinks again. Is the mother's orphan to accept that as just compensation?

Yes a WW has to put the affair and the extra people involved in the past to function and to heal and have a good life post dday.

So the orphan sees the Xdrunk driver years later, in a public place, loses control and calls the XD a murderer.

You're saying the orphan is not to express anger at the XD?
The XD is entitled to be mad at the orphan for bringing up bad memories?

In the movie Fatal Attraction their is nothing but sympathy for the BW and COM. The WH affair brought all this craziness on to his family.

Well MSSWW affair created a reverse bunny boiler. She started a war with the OMW. Problem when you start a war the other party is not obilgated to stop when you tire and want to stop and go home. Also if the WW wanted to only use fists the WW can't expect the OMW to fight by her rules and not show up with a gun.

In general when a WW sows her seeds she does not get to complain that her harvest is a reverse bunny boiler. The WW does not get to paint herself a victim.



No one is saying she is playing a victim. And no - it's not enough compensation to stop the affair, apologize, etc... but she can literally do nothing more for the OMW.

Are you saying she should subject herself to berating from the woman? What would you propose Mrs. MSS to do?

It's Mrs. MSS' job - along with MSS - to rebuild THEIR lives, not the OMW's life. Their work is done there. A repentant FWW such as Mrs. MSS will no doubt carry the guilt for the rest of her life. She does not need continued contact with OMW in order for her to "pay for her sins."
Spirited conversation everyone.

Here's the email to me on my birthday in its entirety:

Happy Birthday. Think of you often. All My Best.


My wife was NOT copied.

Not snarky.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Spirited conversation everyone.

Here's the email to me on my birthday in its entirety:

Happy Birthday. Think of you often. All My Best.


My wife was NOT copied.

Not snarky.





Not snarky - but really, not appropriate for another woman to comment to you that she "thinks of you often," ESPECIALLY given the circumstances. It would be too easy for the two of you to bond over your shared, traumatic experience.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 07:45 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
The WW does not get to paint herself a victim.

She most certainly does not have the right to claim "victimhood" from the direct and close-derivative results of her own actions. ("Oh, woe! My husband left me when he discovered I was banging the milkman!")

She does, however, have the expectation of non-interference in her marriage from a third-party - OMW. It would be more supportable if OMW were to instigate a hair-pulling cat-fight, one-to-one in some parking lot. But OMW sending snarky letters to MSS IN A BLATENT ATTEMPT TO DERAIL HIS RECOVERING MARRIAGE, is inappropriate. Fortunately, MSS understands that. clap


In general a WW starts a war with the OMW when she starts an affair with wining the OM from his BW.

When an agressor(WW) goes to war or fights with their victim just because the starter of the fight does not want to battle any more does not mean the victim has to stop. As in Indiana Jones, once the Ark was open it was to late to close it.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/12/12 08:02 PM
"No one is saying she is playing a victim. And no - it's not enough compensation to stop the affair, apologize, etc... but she can literally do nothing more for the OMW."


Yes can do no more. What a WW does for the BW will always be inadequate.


"Are you saying she should subject herself to berating from the woman? What would you propose Mrs. MSS to do?"


No.

Things get that bad then a RO has to be taken out against the Reverse Bunny Boiler that the WW created.


"It's Mrs. MSS' job - along with MSS - to rebuild THEIR lives, not the OMW's life. Their work is done there. A repentant FWW such as Mrs. MSS will no doubt carry the guilt for the rest of her life. She does not need continued contact with OMW in order for her to "pay for her sins."


She does not need contact with the OMW. Better off with NC.
She can only pay for the sins she did against her BH.
The sins against the OMW/BW no WW will have the ability to repay.

It should not happen to a WW once the affair is over and done.
But if a BW was to break NC every 5 to 10 years to give a dig at the FWW well it's too bad that the FWW gets upset.

This is the possible consequences of having an affair.

Every WW knows the potential consequences that will happen if they cross the line and have an affair.

Those WW cross the line because they decide that the risk is worth it. Their position is let the consequences come, no problem, a piece of cake is how those cake eaters think at that time.

Now the consequences come home roost. So I say let the cake eaters eat their cake that they baked.

The point is that the WW started this fight.
Then they want to end it because the fight no longer suits them.

The WW was selfish at the start, and at the end.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/13/12 02:49 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Spirited conversation everyone.

Here's the email to me on my birthday in its entirety:

Happy Birthday. Think of you often. All My Best.


My wife was NOT copied.

Not snarky.



On MB the need for truth is mentioned repeatedly.

MSS why not take the time to be truthful with the OMW. Send her a letter stating that you would understand if she thought her WH was having an affair again and she needed for you to confirm that your WW was not involved again.

However for you to heal you need NC with her. That NC is just important for both BS's as it is for the WS's. Constant affair reminders happen on there own. She does not need to add to what happens from time to time.

That you want her to heal as well so this is why with this letter I want you to have the tools to heal that I have been using. So included with this letter is I have given you as my gift to your healing these two books: Surviving An Affair, and His Needs Her Needs, both books have been written by Dr Harley.

Please read these books and respect my need for NC.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/13/12 01:35 PM
You're diverting the question, TR. This is not a question of OMW's need, or her right to seek it. This is about the MSS couple's desire not to be imposed upon by her. Less a question of "Free Speech" and more an issue of "Freedom from Listening". Let's reduce this to a simple decision, shall we? I wrote:

She does, however, have the expectation of non-interference in her marriage from a third-party

Since MSS supports his FWW in this matter, if it were to be rendered:

They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party

would you agree? Yes, or No?

FWIW: I sent a letter to Chief Justice Roberts on the "Freedom of Speech" versus the implicit "Freedom From Listening" during the debate about the wack-job fundamentalists disturbing servicemen's funerals to promote their anti-gay agenda. The Chief Justice did not chose to respond, thereby, I maintain, effectively recognizing my position!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/13/12 01:58 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Spirited conversation everyone.

Here's the email to me on my birthday in its entirety:

Happy Birthday. Think of you often. All My Best.


My wife was NOT copied.

Not snarky.





Not snarky - but really, not appropriate for another woman to comment to you that she "thinks of you often," ESPECIALLY given the circumstances. It would be too easy for the two of you to bond over your shared, traumatic experience.





I have been thinking this all along.

Think you need to stay away from her, she is toxic in many ways. Not a bad person, just wallowing in her misery, and I can attest to just how dangerous that can be.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/13/12 02:06 PM
TR, also may I point out that Mikes's WW is not the poster on this thread, Mike, who is the BS, is. He is the one we are advising. We are not advising his FWW or the OMW, we are advising Mike on what HE needs to do for his OWN recovery (which, subsequently, is parallel to his FWW's recovery). It is in HIS best interest to not have contact with the OMW, when she is contacting him in a toxic way, or even in a friendly way (for what are the motives here?).

I don't think, because his W betrayed the OMW in this way, it means that MIKE should have to carry the burden of taking a hit from OMW every few years, because that's the bed his wife made.

He is the one we are advising, his personal and marital recovery, and it is in the best interest of both to not have continued triggers and/or toxic contact with OMW.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/13/12 07:44 PM
"You're diverting the question, TR. This is not a question of OMW's need, or her right to seek it. This is about the MSS couple's desire not to be imposed upon by her."


They are within their rights for NC


"Less a question of "Free Speech" and more an issue of "Freedom from Listening". Let's reduce this to a simple decision, shall we? I wrote:

She does, however, have the expectation of non-interference in her marriage from a third-party

Since MSS supports his FWW in this matter, if it were to be rendered:

They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party

would you agree? Yes, or No?"

[/quote]


No.


"Are you saying she should subject herself to berating from the woman? What would you propose Mrs. MSS to do?"


No.

Things get that bad then a RO has to be taken out against the Reverse Bunny Boiler that the WW created.

This is the possible consequences of having an affair.

Every WW knows the potential consequences that will happen if they cross the line and have an affair.

Those WW cross the line because they decide that the risk is worth it. Their position is let the consequences come, no problem, a piece of cake is how those cake eaters think at that time.

Now the consequences come home roost. So I say let the cake eaters eat their cake that they baked.

The point is that the WW started this fight.
Then they want to end it because the fight no longer suits them.

The WW was selfish at the start, and at the end.


Again MSSWW as any WW started this fight with the OMW/BW.

Just because it no longer suits the WW to be at war it does not have to suit the OMW/BW to sit down have an armistice day and sign a peace treaty with the WW.

That is the consequences of starting a war. All WW know the consequences of having an affair.

These WW say Consequences, what consequences, I don't need no stinkin' consequences, I'm not afraid of no consequences, I am not going to pay any stinkin' consequences.

Then when the affair is over they cry poor me this is so unfair to have to pay the consequences.

When a WW affair caused the OMW/BW to become a reverse bunny boiler she does not get to cry boo hoo, poor me. After all I stopped banging your WH so leave me alone.

Her actions unleashed the BW emotions.

The Hatfields and the Mckoys fought from 1863-1891. For 28 years emotions were released that were powerful enough to kill 12 and wound at least 10. It took legal action to bring it to a stop.

I have no sympathy for a WW, no matter how big an F she has earned to put in front of her WW title when her actions created a reverse bunny boiler.

When a WW is tough enough to pull her big girl pants down for the OM she needs to be tough enough to not get her big girl pants tied up in a knot because the BW breaks NC.

If the BW is making things that bad then the WW gets a restraining order. So if this WW gets that upset with breaks in NC she has to toughen up or go to court.

Being upset and playing victim of the BW is not going to cut it, or accomplish putting an end to this matter.

This WW wants and end to the drama then get an RO. Put up or shut up.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/13/12 07:56 PM
"TR, also may I point out that Mikes's WW is not the poster on this thread, Mike, who is the BS, is."


I know that.

But I will point out that he mentioned how his WW is reacting to breaks in NC from the OMW. MSS put the subject on the table. So I'm responding to his WW actions.


"He is the one we are advising. We are not advising his FWW or the OMW, we are advising Mike on what HE needs to do for his OWN recovery (which, subsequently, is parallel to his FWW's recovery). It is in HIS best interest to not have contact with the OMW, when she is contacting him in a toxic way, or even in a friendly way (for what are the motives here?)."


Do you read what I post? I said there should be NC. He needs to tell his WW that the OMW reactions are because of all that MSSWW put in motion. It's the consequences or her actions demanding that his WW address them for a solution.


"I don't think, because his W betrayed the OMW in this way, it means that MIKE should have to carry the burden of taking a hit from OMW every few years, because that's the bed his wife made."


It's called collateral damages. His WW chose an affair, MSS chose recovery. Well in recovery there is always the chance of having to deal with a reverse bunny boiler.


"He is the one we are advising, his personal and marital recovery, and it is in the best interest of both to not have continued triggers and/or toxic contact with OMW."


I agreed before and do so now.

If NC is that important for MSS and MSSWW then they need to get a restraining order. If they refuse to do so then they will have to put up with the OMW breaking NC for the rest of their lives. Put up or shut up.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/14/12 11:28 AM
They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party. Would you agree? Yes, or No?"

No.


Well then, TR, I think that's where we're going to have to leave it. As I read your post and position, then, you support retaliation and revenge indefinitely, at the sole discretion and desire of the injured party. ("An eye for an eye, for an eye, for an eye...")

So "road rage" is to be encouraged, right? ("He cut me off! I will have satisfaction!") And of course in your example of the Hatfield/McCoy feud, you fail to see the implausibility of citing the irrational retaliatory impulses of a set of inbred, usually semi-intoxicated, hillbillies as your paradigm?

Okay.

There was a Doonebury strip a few years ago in which a UN official was discussing with a Balkan soldier the need to work with a colleague from neighboring province.

Replied that soldier, "We cannot do that! His people attacked our village, slaughtered our men, raped our women, and kidnapped our children!"

The UN official gasped, "Oh, my god! When did THAT happen?"

"In August, 1372, on a Tuesday!"

Are you of Balkan ancestry, TR?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/14/12 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party. Would you agree? Yes, or No?"

No.


Well then, TR, I think that's where we're going to have to leave it. As I read your post and position, then, you support retaliation and revenge indefinitely, at the sole discretion and desire of the injured party. ("An eye for an eye, for an eye, for an eye...")

So "road rage" is to be encouraged, right? ("He cut me off! I will have satisfaction!") And of course in your example of the Hatfield/McCoy feud, you fail to see the implausibility of citing the irrational retaliatory impulses of a set of inbred, usually semi-intoxicated, hillbillies as your paradigm?



I do not encourage road rage or affairrage.

You chose to ignore that MSSWW started this war.

You chose to ignore that once someone choses to cross the line and they choses to ignore that their victim may chose to cross the line and escalate the situation. Can not cry foul. They started the mess. A WW defense of I don't have to behave though you must does not work.

I do not support retailiation. What I do say it can be expected for some BS to react in ways that are even illegal. It's collateral damage that can happen. Possiblility and legality do not have to match up.

There have been threads here, not for a while, where the BH got violent with the OM. Those actions were a possiblity, they did happen, and yet they were illegal.

Same as when a BH in Texas came home and saw his WW and OM going at "it" in OM pickup truck. WW saw BH approaching, screamed rape, jumped out of the truck, the OM tore butt out of there driving down the road to get away while the bullet's the BH shot tore through the OM killing him. This story got sorted out in court. The BH wife was held responsible for the OM death because of her false claim of rape and sent. WW was convicted and sent to jail.

You chose to ignore my citing of the Hatfields and the McCoys story. Another fight. The courts were needed to end that as well just as in the Texas story.

So my point as demonstrated in many a Three Stooges Movies is when you throw a pie you can get hit back worse then you threw.

MSSWW chose to cross the line. She was not coerce to have an affair. She said I don't care about consequences.

MSSWW can't complain I gave up pie throwing. I just washed my hair and that OMW is getting me dirty again.

The phrase put up or shut up. Means that MSSWW has the options of two actions to take. Man up and ignore OMW breaks in NC. Go the legal route to court and file an RO against the OMW.

She does not have the moral right to expect that the OMW should not come back looking to cause prolems for her because that is the possible outcome of an affair. Past affair stories have shown the many illegal beatings and murders that happened as a consequence of an affair. Does not make those actions legal. Though with the amount of times they have happened makes them happening again possible. Just the way many a BW have gone after the WW does not make it legal but a possibility.

MSSWW had to have this knowledge pre affair. Stories of this type are in the media al the time. The woman that tampered with the parachute of her rival, she sky dived to her death, the BS that drove over the WS several times.

All she has is the legal right to ignore OMW or go to court for a RO.

MSSWW as any other WW has no right morally to complain that the BW won't go NC. They, the WW's by being the first to cross the line, broke the line, removing the line would of kept NC between them. Just as if they were cast in a Three Stooges movie and got to throw the first pie. They knew they were going to get hit with more then they threw. They said I don't care. Saying and doing are not the same.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/14/12 05:52 PM
Remind me never to beat you to a parking space that you believe is rightfully "yours". Or if I do so, get out of my vehicle firing first! No reason to wait around to see what your idea of what "collateral damage" you should be entitled to inflict!

Do you not see that the balancing of what is a rational response to stimuli is lacking in your treatment? If OMW were to say, burn down the MSS house, or (and this one hurts) actually harm one of their children, you would blithely say, "Well these things happen!"?

Mrs MSS and OM have not had illicit contact in - what? - eighteen months? You burden OMW with no need to calibrate her life to what has occurred to her even yet?

We're never going to align on this issue, which I would frame as the personal responsibility of people (in this particular, OMW) to own and control their own responses and behaviors. I'll give you the last response, TR, for my own amusement, and not reply.

Mike - Sorry for the extended tj.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/14/12 07:36 PM
"Do you not see that the balancing of what is a rational response to stimuli is lacking in your treatment? If OMW were to say, burn down the MSS house, or (and this one hurts) actually harm one of their children, you would blithely say, "Well these things happen!"?"

Blithely, no, because that word to me means these things are justified if to happen. To state these things happen is stating fact not advocating them. I did not advocate when the woman in Texas falsely cried rape and her BH shot the OM dead as he was driving away. But I will say he was not the first OM to be killed by a BH. And no one can guarantee that it will be the last time a BH kills an OM.

But how come you never address that MSSWW knew things could go this way before she had here affair?

"Mrs MSS and OM have not had illicit contact in - what? - eighteen months?"

There is no time limit for a BW to seek out for what she feels.

"You burden OMW with no need to calibrate her life to what has occurred to her even yet?"

This makes no sense to me.

"We're never going to align on this issue, which I would frame as the personal responsibility of people (in this particular, OMW) to own and control their own responses and behaviors. I'll give you the last response, TR, for my own amusement, and not reply."

You, I, MSSWW, are not to put limits on how the OWN reacts.
You, refuse to acknowledge that there is a wide range of actions that a BW can take.

There is no normal action for a BW to take. The only normal action is the range that others have taken before her unless she does something never done before. From ignoring the OW to killing. I don't advocate any illegal response. Most BW may chose one option because it is what they chose to do. Because most may chose one response does not make it normal. It only makes it average.

If what the OMW does is harmful and there is a law to stop this then MSS and MSSWW should address this issue in the courts.

If MSS ans MSSWW feel they are being harmed by the OMW then they need to get an RO. If not then there is no point in them complaining about the OMW. For they won't do legally what has to be done to stop it.

The way you twist thihgs is that you can't tell someone that blows off a finger with a firework it was their fault. You want to blame the match maker, the fire work company, the fire work store.

You can't grasp MSSWW brought the OMW into her life. The same as the firework victim brought the firework into their life.

The store, nor the firework company did enter old 9 finger's life. The OMW did not enter MSSWW life.

Good fences make good neighbors. When a WW tears down the fence she may not like what comes into her yard. She does not even have to like what comes into her yard. If WW dislikes it that much then she has to go to court and get a new fence(RO).

But I don't want to hear a FWW complain about the bother she has to go through now. Her actions took away her right to complain but not to take legal action for a RO.

When a WW complains about the BW it makes me wonder how much does she realize the level of damage she did to the BW.

If a WW needs NC with the BW there is no need to speak/complain about the BW breaking NC. The WW would show her class by being quiet about this and get a RO.

Because as soon as a WW complains about the BW all she is trying to vilify the BW and make herself a victim. If a WW had class she would not say anything negative about the BW except to her husband and get a RO.

I sorry hearing a WW go boo hoo that mean BW do you know what she is doing now...... does not make the WW worthy of sympathy.
Remember the WW forced herself into the BW life first.
We have a bicycle trail my W and I used to ride together all the time a long time ago. Its winds thru a public park that at 7am is quite abandoned. Ive been riding regularly as part of my excercise thing I started a year ago. She's been joining me on occasion.

Not the most observant one, she didnt notice the backpack I was wearing yesterday morning. I put a blanket, muffins, and some mimosas I put into one of those squeezy bottles cylists have on their bikes into the backpack. And flowers.

The fresh, cool September morning air. The smell of the trees. We pulled over into a secluded area of the park. We talked. We had our breakfast. We made out like teenagers. She cried. She apologized for the stain on our marriage and thanked me, again, for giving her the chance for mornings like that.

After a month of less that stellar adherence to the 'dont bring up the A' rule, we got a refresher on why we got marriage in the first place.

Neil Diamond wrote a song about it and I concur with its sentiment, September Morns are something to enjoy. Look up the lyrics if you dont know the tune.

PS. Despite the desire and opportunity, we didnt give in to public lewdness, thank you very much!! With all the cell phone cameras, the possibility of our tushes beings plastered on the internet precluded that notion.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/24/12 10:22 PM
Sounds like a GREAT morning, Mike! Good for you!

Unfortunately, where I'm at - we have to wait until late Oct or Nov to get a good, crisp morning. frown
From another thread:

The most common ethical question he was asked about over the years concerned a “duty to report.” That is, you find out a friend’s spouse is having an extramarital affair. A college roommate is cheating by downloading papers from the Internet.

Do you tell?

In terms of the friend, he said, it depends on whether you’re getting a strong message that the friend wants to know. If not, be silent, he said.

I am a big fan of the originator of that thread. He and I both suffer at the knowledge that our wives were able to stay in an extra marital relationship for a VLT. His underlying anger reminds me of mine. And, I too put our situation in a different basket from ONS or EA or what have you. Even knowing that MB veterans shoot down this thought at every chance it doesnt change my agreement to this.

The topic of that thread is too heady for my city college education so I didnt chime in on it.

Duty to report is what grabbed me? Pre-dday I had a buddy in an affair and we were close with his wife. I knew the bimbo he was cheating with too. Now its very interesting to me that my wife (who herself was in the midst of an affair) never said a word to my buddy's wife as I certainly told my wife of it. I mentioned this to my wife a couple of times after dday that we actually had many conversations about my buddy's cheating and how terrible it was and how it will someday explode (as it did and they are now divorced) and my wife simply agreed and stayed in the conversation. Certainly another topic from the point.

Duty to report? You betcha. I hardly enjoy what I used to think was normal guy talk about ladies we see on the ballfield or around town. Im going to report cheating to friends or wives of friends first chance.
Even though we are 2 Days of Atonement from her dday, this years D of A got to my wife. With my daughter clinging to her she told me it took all of her might not to start crying during the service this year when we got to the part where they list possible sins committed.

I asked her why this year and not last. She didnt know except maybe she was still in shock last year and numb during services.

She said she cannot believe just how many things she needed forgiveness for besides the most obvious. I told her I forgave her, the big guy upstairs forgives her, and she'll have to figure out how to forgive herself.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 09/28/12 05:33 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
From another thread:

The most common ethical question he was asked about over the years concerned a “duty to report.” That is, you find out a friend’s spouse is having an extramarital affair. A college roommate is cheating by downloading papers from the Internet.

Do you tell?

In terms of the friend, he said, it depends on whether you’re getting a strong message that the friend wants to know. If not, be silent, he said.

I am a big fan of the originator of that thread. He and I both suffer at the knowledge that our wives were able to stay in an extra marital relationship for a VLT. His underlying anger reminds me of mine. And, I too put our situation in a different basket from ONS or EA or what have you. Even knowing that MB veterans shoot down this thought at every chance it doesnt change my agreement to this.

The topic of that thread is too heady for my city college education so I didnt chime in on it.

Duty to report is what grabbed me? Pre-dday I had a buddy in an affair and we were close with his wife. I knew the bimbo he was cheating with too. Now its very interesting to me that my wife (who herself was in the midst of an affair) never said a word to my buddy's wife as I certainly told my wife of it. I mentioned this to my wife a couple of times after dday that we actually had many conversations about my buddy's cheating and how terrible it was and how it will someday explode (as it did and they are now divorced) and my wife simply agreed and stayed in the conversation. Certainly another topic from the point.

Duty to report? You betcha. I hardly enjoy what I used to think was normal guy talk about ladies we see on the ballfield or around town. Im going to report cheating to friends or wives of friends first chance.



Everybody has at least one of those stories...

The only one I really have is actually parallel to dealing with my own W, and was a coworker.


As far as friends go, one of my good friends decided way back when to get way too drunk and place his hands on his wife. I took her from the house, and told him to put his ass in jail and take him for all he's got.

She didn't. She went bi and started cheating, and then went back. And he used the guilt to try to arrange an open marriage.

Yeah... we don't talk much any more...
Of the four, fall is by far my favorite season. Not even close.

The cooler air starts to make the days bearable and breathing non-air conditioned air as I sleep seems to do well by me. The trees turn colors that make me happy and the fall holidays are excellent. The harvest brings great apples and corn and with football on the tv, I cant think of a better portion of the year. You get to wear sweaters and sweatshirts and light jackets which are all things I like. All seems right in the world in the fall.

The downside is this ever diminishing daylight as days get shorter. Its a downer in an otherwise perfect setting. Ive been fighting some depression lately. Cant tie it to the loss of daylight savings time, but its a depression I feel coming on. Its been coming on for days, if not weeks.

Ive tried stepping up UA which I have wrote about recently but nothing seems to be working. Im hesitant about going back on medication as Im not a big on that stuff. I dont want to be a martyr but popping pills is not for me.

Im thinking about some real bad stuff again. Getting so many bad images flying thru my head its like day 1 after dday again. I have this trapped feeling that defined year 1 where because of my desire NOT to hurt my innocent kids by leaving the situation Im stuck here. Then i factor in how leaving would not eliminate ANY of those images and the internal mental battles ensue.

What I hate most are the ups and downs Ive been dealing with for almost 18 months. I used to call it being flaky. I used to have it altogether. Now Im a wishy washy mess evidently stuck in a bad place not of my creating. Im getting tired of swallowing my anger in place of keeping a sound homefront.

I told my wife Im thinking of spending some time at my mother's house to clear my head. Im afraid the only thing that will do it scare my kids whose happiness has been center to my living since 5/8/11. Ive thrown myself on the grenade for them. They are worth it.

There were no AOs. Sure, I sent an email telling her about my depression which was less than cordial. But, I had no other way to tell her whats in my head. I told her she made this bed BUT she does not have to live in it forever. She's done as well as anyone in her position to move us passed this. Its not her, its me. Im having difficulty with the sheer length of time she gave herself to him. And, how easy it became to live that life.

How I must have been completely non-important to her to 1) have sex with him, but 2) to invite him and his family into our home a million times. I cannot get passed that.

Having great SF and tons UA is awesome. But it doesnt remove the things in my head.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 12:14 PM
You have worked hard and long moving out will not help. A one on one phone session with the Harley's. think

They are a litle bit better then us posters. rotflmao
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 02:44 PM
Mike, so sorry you are having a rough time. Keep in mind that 18 months isn't long enough to have fully recovered. I've been dealing with a few triggers myself the last couple of days due to the antiversaries being upon me...and I'm at the 2 year mark. (Just mentioned in my own thread how I used to love October! I'm a Fall person myself.)

Dealing with a LTA I imagine means it takes longer to recover. Stay focused on the long term goal rather than your immediate feelings. Have a plan of action for when you are feeling down - do everything and anything in your power to engage your brain: take a class, or take up a new hobby - preferably with your wife. Plan a project - and not an easy one, but one that requires total brain focus. Read an uplifting book - or a funny one. One of the best tools? Doing some volunteer work. The way our brain works, when we do good for others we are uplifting ourselves - positivity begets positivity within us. Even a small compliment or nicety to a stranger in a store (within good boundaries of course - not flirting, obviously) can make us feel better.

I've battled depression myself at different times and am just passing along some things that have worked for me.

I don't like ADs myself - not as a long term solution. Consider some Vitamin D supplements though. It's been proven that there's a strong link between depression and Vitamin D. (Or get out into the sun at least 15-30 minutes a day.)

By all means, do a phone session if you can!
Thanks.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 03:03 PM
I want to chew on this for a while, Mike, but I'd urge you to remember some things:

1) Your best non-pharmaceutical "medicine" right now is the ongoing efforts of your wife to help you through these episodes. Vacating her presence is exactly the wrong action.

2) You will NEVER be able to "fix" the past. You will be more comfortable if you continue to build walls to keep the past IN the past.

E - A - O - T - P !
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 03:07 PM
Wow, Mike...the scripts are similar. The services are very tough for her, and were this year as well.

I do remember last year W didn't speak "that" sin out loud -- this year she did -- as we recited it.

She wept in the car on the way home...squeezed my hand almost til it broke, and mouthed "I am so sorry" a few times.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that it's only been what, 18 months (March 2011 exposed the affair) for us, and maybe we need to be more gentle with ourselves once in awhile.

The thing is, and I don't know if it matters a whit, while I reference March 2011 as the true "end" of the affair and beginning of recovery, W references much earlier, the Fall of 2010, as the "end" of the affair, says it was over and done, really by then...BUT, she also recognizes that our true recovery didn't begin until exposure and OM was off the job and out of her life...

hang in there buddy. I try my best to remember that it could be (and was) much worse then, and we have more good days than bad now.

Progress, not perfection.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 03:24 PM
H and I have fall hobbies that we thoroughly enjoy. Just this morning I was thinking to myself how happy and positive I've been lately, and attributing it to the pleasure I have in LIFE (not just with H but with my life in general, although that is obviously a big factor) right now, and how important it is for me to have things to focus on and look forward to that are not 'recovery' based. Just things that make life fun, ya know? I suggest it.

Is there some fall/winter hobby or activity your W and you enjoy together, that you can get more involved in?

Or just get out together and enjoy the crisp fall air as much as possible, I went ATVing in the fall colors on Saturday, which happened to be my birthday, did a little bit of hunting too. Days like that make me totally forget that we are in 'recovery,' I am just happily married and out with my husband having fun.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 03:33 PM
Also maybe take a look at other things in your life? I know for me, if I have issues with kids, issues with job, etc. then all of a sudden the A starts to pop into my head more or recovery takes a turn for the worse. I have approached recovery as a all encompassing life changing experience. So just a suggestion to make sure the other parts of your life are complimenting your marriage and recovery, as they should be.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/02/12 04:16 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
to invite him and his family into our home a million times. I cannot get passed that.



Mike. are you still living in the same house?
Someone asked what was worse a PA or EA.

On the recent flair-up that I wrote about, we discussed sex and the OM. She begged me to know that it wasnt an everyday or every week thing. Small consolation, she knew. I told once is bad but we have a LTA on our hands and Lord knows how many. But, that wasnt the extent of my anger, I reminded her.

In between bjs and her on her back, there was an inordinate amount of alone time where they talked, shopped, ate, and just maintained a lovely emotional affair. THIS, I told her, was just about as hurtful as the sex.

She really didnt see the EA as just that, an affair. I had to remind her that she classified what they had early on as a relationship. A relationship means kissing and holding and looks in the eyes, not just a good ole shtup once in a while.

So I informed her that the sheer length of time they were a couple and not having sex was enormous. And it was this time that, even though it died out at some point, they were hot and heavy forging a bond, an emotionl bond. I let her know this part hurts as much as or more than the sex.

So, I find the 2 states of adultery to be equal.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/16/12 04:08 PM
I read the same thread, didn't comment. I would have said PA, having experienced both. I think they both come with their own set of emotional difficulties, and which is worse than the other depends on the betrayed spouse to some extent.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/16/12 04:50 PM
Mike, could you look in on rrr on the SAA board, especially the most recent posts? I got the deja vu feeling in writing to him that I was writing to you a year ago.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/17/12 12:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
On the recent flair-up that I wrote about, we discussed sex and the OM. She begged me to know that it wasnt an everyday or every week thing. Small consolation, she knew. I told once is bad but we have a LTA on our hands and Lord knows how many. But, that wasnt the extent of my anger, I reminded her.

In between bjs and her on her back, there was an inordinate amount of alone time where they talked, shopped, ate, and just maintained a lovely emotional affair. THIS, I told her, was just about as hurtful as the sex.

She really didnt see the EA as just that, an affair. I had to remind her that she classified what they had early on as a relationship. A relationship means kissing and holding and looks in the eyes, not just a good ole shtup once in a while.

So I informed her that the sheer length of time they were a couple and not having sex was enormous. And it was this time that, even though it died out at some point, they were hot and heavy forging a bond, an emotionl bond. I let her know this part hurts as much as or more than the sex.



MSS, you are here since 6/2011. I assume your dday is not recent and your WW has answered all your questions about the affair so in my best MelodyLane/Peperband/etc Impression:

STOP TALKING ABOUT THE AFFAIR.

This post seems to be you looking for excuses to find ways to tell WW how much she has hurt you.

As you keep reliving the affair you shall keep on triggering.
Yup. I still have a need to remind her of what she did as counterproductive as i know it will be.

Like the burden she carries isnt enough.

Like something positive will come from it.

Like the affair may suddenly NOT have happened.

Pathetic. I justify it in my head as something SHE created not me so its ok.

It certainly has not happened since a summer business trip but again thats just justifying whats not justifiable.

We ve moved forward.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/18/12 03:47 PM
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
George Orwell
I cant even fathom what life would be like if my wife didnt show and maintain the highest level of remorse she has since dday.

Reading about some of these guys' year plus of chasing and enduring a spouse who is either still contacting their OMs or out there looking for outside action is chilling.

Should I be considering myself lucky?

I will tell you I dont feel lucky?

Knowing what I know is not luck. Its something else.

I do feel that SHE is lucky. She is lucky Im who I am and as she and her guy said, I wouldnt leave her after getting caught. She is lucky my children's happiness is more important to me than anything. And her luck doesnt stop there. I know many guys who would have taken the opportunity to leave a lousy marriage when the blame would be squarely on their wives.

She's lucky I found this website when I did and I learned my marriage can be better.
MSS,

Just a few random replies to some of your posts... I would say you both are "lucky". She is lucky for having you, a man who has tried so hard to forgive and move forward, but you are lucky too. You now have a woman who is living for her marriage and doing what she should have been all along. I think WS' often are better spouses afterwards, not for having the affair, but because when they repent (truly repent), they are much more aware of failures in more areas of marriage than many who have never experienced infidelity. This awareness often causes them to work harder in more areas, thus making a better, more whole, marriage than many others.

2. She carries this knowledge every day... What she's done. It will never leave her. Reminders, I think often lead to despair for the FWS because they are never sure they've been forgiven. Despair or hopelessness is not not a thing you want your FWW to live with.

3. Forget about looking at all the betrayal all the time and begin looking at the steps you both have made since the betrayal. Log in a notebook if you have to! It will help you see the progress

4. Here's my thoughts on EA's and PA's... I think they are both equally as devastating. Why? because at the heart of both is one common action.... Betrayal.


CV
The Irish Traveler is in the house.

I love you, man. You have made a difference in my life.

Your optimism and glass half full way about you is infectious. I still go back and read your stuff from my darkest hours on my other thread when I need a boost.

I will start to log the sucesses in my notebook. Good idea.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: Mike's Musings from Happyville, USA - 10/22/12 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I cant even fathom what life would be like if my wife didnt show and maintain the highest level of remorse she has since dday.

Reading about some of these guys' year plus of chasing and enduring a spouse who is either still contacting their OMs or out there looking for outside action is chilling.

Should I be considering myself lucky?

I will tell you I dont feel lucky?

Knowing what I know is not lu