I am only 23 years old and i am about to get a divorce. My H had an affair last year a few months after i gave birth to our D. It lasted for about 8 months. I wont go into the pain and hurt i felt, but we did try to rebuild using the concepts found on this website.
I only recently found out that he has still been lying to me and that he has also contacted the other woman. I am leaving him. I do not deserve to be lied to and cheated on when i am giving my self to him so willingly. I will not take it.
I feel like i am too young to have gone through this type of heartbreak... Our family said it was too early, but he and i thought they were wrong...
I am scared but I know that this is something that needs to be done. He has taken and taken from me... I have drowned and I dont know who i am anymore.

Somone has experienced this before
help...


sorry, i dont know the short hand

I guess i should mention that there was sexual relationships with 2 diff women, then a repeat with one of the women that lasted 8 months. He also was emotionally involved with a 3rd woman for about 3-4 months before our D was born.

So there has been multiple acts of infidelity

you shoulld leave no one should live like that

((((HUGS))))

You certainly don't have to stay in that marriage but if you want to try to recover it, the information is here. Even if you don't, the concepts of Plan A and Plan B really help you to recover as a person. Infidelity is so painful and damaging no matter what your age. Also, find a support group through your church or a community center. Sometimes the women's shelter is a good place to look. You need friends and family now more than anything.

Hi H@23,

I'm so sorry for your pain. I, too suffered multiple D-Days and was adamant after the 4th to start over.

Your situation is a little different than mine but the results could be the same.

My story is below in the Romantic Experiences section:

Mr. romAnCE Saga My Strange Story

After the 3rd D-Day we both nearly committed suicide separately because the pain was so great.

He seemed to change and I trusted him again but caught him lying a few months later. That's when I gave up but agreed (for reasons you'll see in my story) to give him a stike 5.

I don't blame you for giving up, H@23. You are young and deserve better in life. However, if you want to give him another chance, if he follows through on posting and seeking help on GQII, and if he gets right with God and is remorseful, repentive and truly sincere, there is a slim chance that you could experience a miracle like my husband and I have.

Do not forgive him without just compensation. He needs to earn it....that was my triple mistake. There is a really good article about that on this web site.

If you decide to try again, you might consider starting (or reposting) a thread on General Questions II. It has more traffic than this forum and will give you a wealth of support if you do decide to try again.

I would suggest you get professional help by calling the Harleys for phone counseling.

When I was trying to decide, I wrote a list of "go/stay" reasons. Actually the list would have been for him to go or stay.....you should stay in your home with your baby.

Fortunately, the 4th D-Day happened just before we left on a 10-day vacation....away from the computer so he had to quit cold turkey. We had found MB books but not this discussion forum.

My FWH still does not post on this forum, so the fact that your WH has posted could be helpful....if he is sincerely sorry for his actions, not just that he got caught.

Best wishes,

Ace

P.S. There is a list of the MB acronyms pinned atop the "Just Found Out" section...hopefully they're still there, not sure after the board upgrades.

Hurting

I am so sorry that you are here.

Your situation is very troubling. Being so young and having to deal with so much infidelity...well it is devastating as you well know. ((((hugs)))

I can't say that your WH can change into a man worth holding onto. I've read his post and there is alot of self renovation that needs to be done. I encourage you to read this forum and learn. Recover yourself. Protect your child.

There may be a time in the future for some kind of reconciliation, but there are many, many "ifs" attached. And I say "may" only because I rarely say "never".

You stick to your boundaries Hon, they've been crossed too many times and in the worst ways. Try to keep your heart open for what God has in store for you. Don't let this heartache keep you from being vulnerable again.

You have time. Take things slowly.

After reading your H's shallow post on GQ, I would strongly suggest that you continue with your plans to divorce this man. He is, IMO, no good.

I am sorry for your hurt and pain. You can and will do better than him.

Hi Mk

This isn't to challenge your view, but to try and figure out what I am missing. Why did you, and others (so SOMETHING must be clueing your guys in)rip that guy? What should I be looking for in his post that gives his true feelings away.

One poster said he was not deserving of grace. But according to God, NONE of us is DESERVING, but we get it because of His love.

So, I'm missing something, can you tell me? THanks

Hurting,

I am so sorry that you are having to experience this, one of lifes most painful experiences at such a young age and with a new baby in your life as well.

There was a time when I would have said, kick the creep to the curb, the pain of getting over him couldn't possibly be worse than having this happen to you again.

However, you do have a child with him and it is not impossible for him to change. Right now, it is his job to figure out what within him is wrong that allows him to think that his actions are in any way acceptable for a married man.

While we are all vulnerable to have affairs, I do believe that some folks have real problems with boundaries and need to protect themself from ever being in a position to act inappropriately. Your WH sounds like one of them. My FWH is also someone who has a long history of problems maintaining appropriate boundaries with women.

My FWH dabbled in inappropriate relationships with women for our entire relationship both before and after we married. Even after d-day and all the pain that came with it, after 3 1/2 years of recovery progress, he once again started to repeat his old behavior.

For me that was the line in the sand that I believe your husband has also crossed. I do not suspect that you want to be the fidelity police and neither did I. I didn't then and don't now want to think that it is only my vigilence that is preventing another affair. I don't want him to want to have another affair.

What it really comes down to is what is your WH willing to do, NOT SAY, to protect you and your child from his poor self control, weak or non existant boundaries, and bad judgement.

Maybe I am a fool, but I believe that my FWH finally does get it. You see, in spite of everything he has done, I do know that he never wanted, and still doesn't want a life without me. What he needed and what I think your WH also needs is to completely understand that having you in his life will be impossible unless he changes his behavior.

Can your WH change? Yes he can, if he wants to bad enough. Can he become the kind of husband that you deserve? Maybe. But the road to recovery is long and often very difficult.

Should you give him another chance? That is your CHOICE. He has made all sort of decisions and choices without considering you. At this point, no one here would question a choice to end your marriage. But no one will call you a fool for giving him one last chance to try and fix himself.

Who

Gab
A couple of things. First off, this girl is young and has repeatedly taken him back. By his own account, he begged his way back in a dozen times without changing.

Next, his post is all about him. I don't think he deserves anything until he earns it. He won't IMHO. I think his post was self serving.

Next, this woman has decided to divorce and in this case, that is a VERY healthy thing for her to do. Even Dr. Harley has clearly stated that when someone comes to him and says they want to divorce that he is "right there with them."

I do not think it is the purpose of these boards or even respectful to try and talk someone out of their desire to divorce an unfaithful spouse. We can help them should THEY decide to give their marriage a try. But, not everyone does that and they deserve our support as well. Not every marriage can or should be saved. Some spouses are nothing more than baggage and should be dropped so that a new and more healthy life can begin.

His post on GQ seems to be another attempt at trying to guilt or con you into giving him yet another chance at breaking your heart.

You have to decide whether his words or actions have any meaning at this point. It sounds like he's got very little respect for you or your marriage at this point. He is still concerned with his wants and needs and not your needs or the needs of the marriage.

Dead on balls accurate!


HA23...if you EVER decide to give this "man" another chance...do yourself a HUGE favor...hook him up to a polygraph machine. Only then will you truly see all the horrible truths of what he has done. Do not count on him to be honest with you...he won't. When you are armed with the truth, you can then make decisions about your life.

Mike
I get what you mean about not every spouse deserving forgiveness. I was reading another thread about "the feelings of WS towards the OP after the affair is over". One poster listed something like the following.

OP1- hates
OP2- ambivalent
0p3- cant stand
OP4- still has feelings

There may have been OP5, I cant remember. Does someone BESIDES me seen the ridiculousness of thinking there wont be a 5 or 6 etc.

Now, I FULLY realize how much LOVE plays a role in wanting to keep your marriage together IN SPITE of multiple betrayals, so I am NOT making fun right here, its just amazing how LUCKY some people are to have such wonderfully forgiving spouses.

Thanks MK.

Hello. I'm very sorry you are going through this. Truly I am.

I think you are best leaving your husband (actually, I think he should be removed from the home) at this time. I suggest the strongest Plan B that you can muster (not as an attempt to save your marriage, but as a protection measure for yourself).

I have experienced infidelity, lies/manipulation, and much more before. While you stay with him, he is only learning that he is getting away with the behavior. It is unfortunate and quite beyond my understanding, but people like this do not often think "wow, I'd better not blow it this time" consistently after getting another chance. They may in the short term. They certainly say they do. Long term, however, what they take away is that they've gotten away with their behavior, and that you will tolerate it. You will protest, but you will tolerate it.

Forgiveness isn't something freely given, it is something earned. Acceptance you can do on your own, but forgiveness is a transaction between the parties. Genuine forgiveness requires a lot of things that aren't evident in your husband. For more information, see Dr. Janis Spring's book, "How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, The Freedom Not To". I attended one of her talks and spoke with her at length at the Smart Marriages Conference in 2004. She has some really good stuff.

I've posted to your husband. Since he doesn't seem to have returned on his own to his own thread, I'd appreciate it if you'd let him know about it. I'd like you to read it, as well.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2037974#Post2037974

His post here is more of the same...for any real change you need to separate. For you to even decide how you want to proceed forward with a clear head, you need to separate.

I know hugs and sympathy won't make the pain better or easier to bear, but I give you both anyway.

{{{Hurting_at_23}}}

Don't give an inch to your WH.

HE has to bend over backwards and contort at this point to prove to you he's even worthy a second glance. He's being told what he needs to do, he's got all the same info as the rest of us at his disposal. He knows what he needs to start doing all on his own, so you need not worry about that. If he doesn't do it, you will know he's unworthy.

I don't even think Plan A is anything you should be thinking about right now. Plan B is what I would suggest. This man? has a lot of work to do.

Maybe I'm not the right girl to be posting to you right now, as I have suffered thru 3 affairs that I know of, Plan A, Plan B, false recoverieS, and am now separating again. I worked very hard to save a marriage that probably should not have gotten so much attention; not without my WH having done ALL the hard lifting for some time.

I say none of this in malice, just to protect your interests here.

Skedaddle !! Don't look back !! Time to put some serious distance behind you.

Hurting:

This is what I posted to your H on the GQ board. I have dealt with multiple affairs so please read:

Words from you are meaningless at this point. You will be judged by your actions...and that is how it should be.

I could not agree more.
I am a BS who's now exh had multiple affairs. You want to know how I feel? I do believe now he also had several EAs before anything turned into a PA. Each time I found out I lost another part of ME. Each time I would go on the computer and see he had found some anonymous woman in a game chat room or something to discuss OUR marriage problems with (or what HE felt was wrong)I died a little more. Then there was the ONS, i was physically ill. After that it was all down hill. There was another with one of my kids school mate's mothers. Then the screwing around he did in Texas at military training where I got the hotel charges on the debit card for. The women he went home with from the local bar. The times he just didn't come home at all. And this last one, where he broke up someone else's marriage! He is still with that ow.

Each time, I lost more of myself. My self esteem was in the toilet by the end. I didn't care about anything anymore. Each time he got caught he promised to behave himself. Each time he did not. It was wayyy too easy for him to cheat! I finally threw him out. And he has the nerve to be mad at me that I did! Every chance I gave, he ruined. It has been 3 years now, and I made the right choice. My life could not be better without him. I deserve better than that and so does your wife. Good Lord, you two are so young and you are doing this already? How can she possibly trust that you will NEVER do this again? I wouldn't to be honest. I have been there done that and have the tshirt.

Actions will speak way louder than words and if I were her, I'd be making you prove those actions from different living quarters. I'd not want you anywhere near me. Like SL said, don't talk, don't justify, nothing. Just do. IF she is smart, she will not take you back for at least 6 months or a year of continued progress on your part. Get into counseling to see why you did this. And to make sure it doesn't happen again. And she will need it too. On her own. Do you see that you have probably just sucked the life right out of her doing this over and over again? I will never understand why people don't just leave a marriage instead of cheat. I would have had a lot more respect for my exh if he had done that. When and IF she does take you back, you will need to be an open book. No more secrets, no more lies. Period. Ever.

Being that it is so early on in the marriage, if I were giving her advice, I'd tell her to cut her losses. From my experience with a serial cheater, I sure wish I had cut mine sooner.

I really don't know if your marriage can be saved or if it should. If you are willing to do whatever it takes for your WIFE than maybe. And if you can, I hope you thank your lucky stars because in my opinion, a serial cheater doesn't deserve being in the marriage.

You asked for input from someone who has been through this with a spouse. There is my 2 cents.

Take it for what it is worth.

mlhb

Hurting,

Welcome to MB. You will find support and help here from those who have lived through their own dark days and come out on the other side.

I have been posting to your WS and am sad to say that I find his mindset to still be one of entitlement and self-centeredness. I have asked him if he is willing to do whatever it takes to helkp you heal. He has not answered that question or any other question from other posters, but instead, has pretty much ignored most of what has been posted to him.

I wish I could tell you that I see some hopeful signs. But I do not. Because of the pattern of betrayal and the lack of willingness to do whatever you need to heal, I suggest you run. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and make your life safer.

Continue to post and receive support from others. Be strong and courageous.

As you all have seen somehow WH figured out that I joined MBforums. I must admit I feel really ackward knowing that everythin i post will be read and possibly thrown in my face...
But i need someone to vent to.
I am literally drowning, have been for the last two years. I cannot remain in this destructive situation. I come from a line of very strong minded women who dont take any crap, which also means i come from a line of divorced single mothers. I took it upon myself to break that cycle of divorce and opened myself to WH. I was still recovering from delivering my DD-12mon when i fould out about the PA. It ripped me, and I have been running on just enough to take care of my DD. I will graduate in May but im scared... I have no money job, i am between a rock and hard place.

WH has for so long gotten his way, grandmas, aunts, mother, and female friends never tell him no. I found out i have become one of those women. But I cant do it anymore... my baby.. thats who i think of... my sweetheart. What can I do?

I cant breath here



Thank you all for replying to me.

Hurting, the thing that will help you the most will be to network. There is SO much help out there, but we Americans are frightfully ignorant on how to get it. Please call United Way and tell them of your situation. Ask them to hook you up with job search help, living situation, donated food/furniture/baby stuff/whatever, and anything else. Please let them help you get started on your own - for your baby's sake.

Also, go to your local Chamber of Commerce. Tell them your situation and ask them to hook you up with some local organizations that will be good for you. Things like babysitting co-ops, women's clubs, young professional organizations, they can help you get a new life started.

Thanks catperson,

LOL, Im not being rude but it ironic that you would suggest the Chamber. Thats where WH works at, he doesnt want his coworkers to know we are heading to divorce. But i will take a look at the United Way.

Wow. Didn't see that one coming!

Ok, then do a web search for women's organizations in your area. They are an awesome resource for people like you. Basically, full of women who've been through life and are looking for ways to help other women. Like you.

I have some information I would like to share with you privately. I have tried to send a PM, but it says you have reached your max PM limit. Can you check your PM box?

I checked my message box, its empty. And i made sure i was accepting messages. So im not sure whats wrong.

I wasn't aware that the PM feature was activated. I hope not.

It was intentionally deactivated on the old format due to appropriateness and the potential for abuse and I would think they would carry that logic over to this format also.

I know it has been functioning since the new boards went up, although I have not personally used it myself.

And I do understand why it has been inactivated in the past and am not sure why it would be allowed now. I certainly see the danger.

But IF it is functioning, I would like to ask Hurt some questions in private and give share some thoughts with her without her WH reading and manipulating and using it against her.

Hurt,

Would you ever consider reconciliation with your husband?

Are there actions that he could take to PROVE his commitment to your marriage?

I gave my FWS a list of requirements that he must do before he could have a ticket back into my life. It was a tough list, that only a repentant, remorseful person would do. Only someone who was truly broken would follow through with that list. I was only willing to consider reconciliation if he was already broken and was willing to pull the heavy load of recovery. That's not how it usually works here at MB. But it was the ONLY option for me. I had lived through two false recoveries and refused to do it again.

Here are examples of what was on my list:

total honesty about EVERYTHING (including details of the affair that I decide I want to know)

apology to me

apology to our children for abandoning them and breaking his promises

no contact letter and complete commitment to no contact forever

disclose the details of his lies (about me, our marriage, and his affair) to our families and close friends

counseling with the counselor of my choice

weekly accountability with 3 men that I choose

change cell number and email

provide me with all cellphone, credit card, and email accounts

post-nup agreement that provided for me financially, as I had been a stay-at-home mom for 17 years and had homeschooled our children for 12 years

polygraph


There was more, but these are what come to mind right now.



IF, and I say IF, your husband would do all this and more, would you be open to the possibility of reconciliation?

Your husband has posted that he IS willing to whatever you need to help you heal.

You have EVERY RIGHT to divorce him and move on. He is a serial cheater, and may not ever change his ways.

IF he DOES change his ways, do you want this marriage? Only you can make that decision.

My advice to you is dependent on your answer. I, and others here, will support and help you whatever your goal is.

I'm in 100% absolute agreement with this. Plan A is not in your best interest right now, especially as your husband is admitting that you meet his needs. Plan A will just serve as an enabling force in the situation. You are beyond Plan A.


That is understandable. When my (now ex) H signed up here and started posting in the late Spring of 2002, I felt the exact same way.

Honestly, if he throws ANY of this in your face, then he's telling you a lot about himself. What he is saying translates to this, "Get away from me ASAP, and stay away, because I'm more interested in manipulating you than I am in fixing myself."


Sweetie, I know 110% how you feel! I know that doesn't help, but your words bring back memories of how I felt when I was in my marriage. You cannot help but feel that, but do not let it overcome you and hold you immobile.

I used to think that escapism was entirely bad. It isn't. I'll share with you what my therapist (PhD in Clinical Psychology) told me about it. Late at night, when all you do is think/cry/worry and you cannot get it out of your head, escapism is GOOD. By all means, pop in a favorite movie. Play a video/computer game. Read a good fiction book. Do some scrapbooking...whatever works for you. Escapism at that time helps you. Just do not wallow in escapism mode until you are immobilized. Use it as a tool to get you to a time/place where you can act. When those times/places come, then escapism is counterproductive.


Of course you can't! Absolutely you can't. I will never, ever suggest that you should, nor will I ever tell you that you have to or should consider remaining with or returning to your H. That is entirely up to you.


This I also understand. To me, it doesn't matter what anyone else in your family should do. The situation you are in is extremely emotionally abusive and manipulative, and you shouldn't stay in a situation like that no matter what. It isn't healthy for you.

I also understand breaking that, and moving yourself so far that you are willing to open yourself up to the person who has hurt you so deeply. I also understand how it feels when he returns that faith with more pain and hurt, and a continuation of a cycle that you rejected to begin with.

None of us, including you, can make your husband change or be anything other than what he is. Only he can make that decision. Even if/when he does, it is a long path of self-realization, self-improvement, and learning new habits. Any psychologist will tell you that it takes a minimum of 3 months to learn a single new habit. Your husband needs to spend years - literally - on his problems. (I also strongly suspect either an ingrained sense of entitlement or sexual addiction.)

What you have to do is look at your husband's actions. Don't look at his words. Ignore them entirely. He lies and is untrustworthy, and you know that. Look at his actions and what they say. Then, you need to decide if that is something you are willing to live with. My guess is that it isn't.

Protect yourself and get out of the destructive situation.


I can imagine that this was extraordinarily painful, and the worst possible time to discover such a painful truth. Focus on graduating in May. (Congrats on that, btw, that is a huge achievement.) Look into local women's advocacy groups, because there are resources to assist you. I also suggest that you file a court motion for a temporary order for child support pending a formal separation agreement. There are clinics in most law schools that can help you with this.

My situation was different in that I was the primary (and often sole) income. However, due to a series of circumstances not related to the separation and subsequent divorce, I went into serious debt (still am digging out). I lost my house (sold it right before it foreclosed), and the majority of my belongings. I am bouncing back quickly, though, and I can tell you that getting out of my situation was worth losing all of it (and then some more on top of it).


The first thing you do is breathe. I'm quite serious about this, in fact. Do some controlled breathing exercises. They help you to readjust your brain waves and reach a calmer state. The second thing you do is start all the research I've suggested. Explore your options and know what is available before making a plan.




You are most sincerely welcome.

mamabear

i brought a similar list to him before

1 total honesty- did't get that
2 no contact email- went back on it twice
3 disclosure of lies to fam- only partially
4 accountablility- pretty much refused
5 change cell#- paid $38 to switch it but contact occured anyways and he said he didnt want to spend any more money to get it changed again.

my point is that i haved done the list and it backfired... i am not willing to go through it again, he does was he needs to do temporarily so that i can stay, the reverts back to his old behavior

we talked last night and his attitude/arrogance has not changed mych. he is just fearful about losing me for good this time.

I cant even trust him to give me space to privatley post on here! I was talking to my sister and he was standing outside the door listening and brought what i was saying up to me later.

He still wants controll over my lif=e and he cant stand not having it. im not acti9ng like i never did wrong. there was a time when i wasnt fulfilling EN, but when i realized what i had done i did a 180 and he took advantage of that. I was open to recovery the first two and three times he lied. but im done


IMHO he is panicing because he is losing the control that he had.

So your husband doesn't want his coworkers knowing that you are heading to divorce? So what? It isn't your responsibility or job to protect him in such a way. It isn't your job to keep his "secrets" from his coworkers. In fact, doing so just enables him further.

I strongly suggest that you contact the Chamber anyway.


Big problem. Huge red flag. IMHO, you should have separated when you didn't get this.


Ditto to above.


Ditto to above.


1000% ditto to above. A wayward spouse refusing accountability is a wayward spouse refusing to change his/her ways.


Ditto. If NC isn't worth $38 every time contact occurs, he's not seriously invested in NC.

And this is why you should hire a divorce lawyer and send his happy asss packing.


Exactly. He actually sounds like an abuser. Has he ever hit you?

It sounds like a very wise decision.

I'm in 100% agreement with everything mkeverydaycnt says. He does sound like a controlling abuser. He may or may not physically and verbally abuse you, but this is mental and emotional abuse.

Please take a look at this, and tell us if any of it applies to your marriage, particularly the Emotional Abuse slice.

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/power_control-wheel.html

Here is information from when I attended a seminar on forgiveness by Janis Spring, PhD. (This is copied and pasted from a thread I wrote on it shortly after returning from the SmartMarriages Conference in July, 2004.)

I know that forgiveness is something with which we all struggle, whether it be forgiving ourselves, our spouse, the OP, the friends that remained silent and enabled, the family that failed to support our marriage, etc. (If I'm the only one, please just let me know. ;))

The following definitions and steps are taken from Janis Spring's book "Hoe Can I Forgive You". Note that she asserts that Genuine Forgiveness can only occur with the participation and regret of the offending party.

Obviously, not forgiving is unhealthy for us. What can we do if the person isn't sorry and we don't want to harbor the anger inside us?

********************************************

Cheap Forgiveness - Cheap Forgiveness is a quick and easy pardon with no processing of emotion and no coming to terms with the injury. It is premature, superficial, and undeserved. It is an unconditional, unilateral, often compulsive attempt at peacekeeping. It is a gratuitous gift for which the hurt party asks nothing in return.

Refusing to Forgive - Refusing to Forgive is a reactive, rigid, often compulsive response to a violation that cuts the hurt party off from life and leaves him/her stewing in his/her own hostile juices. It is a decision to continue to punish the offender and reject reconciliation, even if that decision also punishes the hurt party.


(Just in case you haven't guessed, she doesn't recommend Cheap Forgiveness)

Acceptance - Acceptance is a responsible, authentic response to an interpersonal injury when the offender can't or won't engage in the healing process - when the offender is unwilling or unable to make good. It is a program of self-care, a generous and healing gift to oneself, accomplished by the self, for the self. It asks nothing of the offender.

Genuine Forgiveness - Genuine Forgiveness is a hard-won transaction, an intimate dance between two people bound together by an interpersonal violation. As the offender works hard to earn forgiveness through genuine, generous acts of repentance and restitution, the hurt party works hard to let go of his/her resentment and his/her need for retribution - together they redress the injury.

Genuine Forgiveness is conditional, is a transaction, and requires transfer of vigilance; therefore, it requires the offender and the hurt party to both be involved.



THE TEN STEPS OF ACCEPTANCE
Hurt parties should -
- honor the full sweep of their emotions
- give up their need for revenge but continue to seek a just resolution
- stop obsessing about the injury and reengage with life
- protect themselves from further abuse
- frame the offender's behavior in terms of the offender's own personal struggles (this is not to EXCUSE the behavior but attempt to understand what may have led the offender to take this action - you can understand without agreeing or excusing)
- look honestly at their own contribution to the injury (sometimes there may not be one - my childhood sexual abuse is a good example)
- challenge their false assumptions about what happened
- look at the offender apart from the offense, weighing the good against the bad
- carefully decide what kind of relationship they want with the offender
- forgive themselves for their own failings

CONCRETE STRATEGIES FOR LIMITING OBSESSIVE THINKING
Hurt parties can:

- challenge their negative thoughts
- question their habitual response to injury
- use medication
- use distraction
- learn thought stopping
- seek social support
- normalize their response
- use relaxation, visualization, and meditation
- apply stimulus control
- implement a program of self-care

There is a detailed explanation of each of these, obviously. It is all geared toward healing oneself and moving forward in a healthy and positive way.

I hope that this is helpful for everyone in our growth and recovery paths.

You can always get back together later, down the road, after he's had to deal with the fallout of losing you because of his actions, and has maybe learned the humility he needs before he will ever change. Make him earn you back, and make sure it takes 3 to 5 years.

Great post Takola.

I think I'm at a cross between cheap forgiveness and acceptance. Only the genuine forgiveness would heal me fully I believe. I'm trusting God to help me live joyfully, even without the genuine forgiveness though.

I found great healing through acceptance, myself. It wasn't what I expected to use her information for, but it worked for me nonetheless.

{{{Mopey}}}

I'm so glad to hear that. There's hope for me then.

And that means that there's hope for you too HA23.

In my own life...well...I have found it easier to accept that it's okay not to forGET an offense.

As a Christian, I'm called to forgive that person, but I don't have to forget...

To forget puts your guard down and makes it possible for you to get hurt again the same way. I think it's a human instinct that God put there, so I rationalize that it's okay not to forget.

Not forgiving though...well, I've written about it before, my thoughts on that, and hopefully some of you will humor me as I write it again.

I believe that I have no right not to forgive someone, especially when I know I do wrong things as well. I can't expect God to forgive me for those wrong things, if I can't forgive someone else.

Jesus taught us to say "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This is the real deal. Jesus taught this. It didn't appear out of thin air just to make our lives more difficult but to make our lives better.

Another thought...it takes an awful lot of energy to maintain a grudge - energy that is life sucking and could and would quite likely rob you of positive energy to use for better things - like spending good times with family. To keep a hold on God's gavel..hmmm... What if my lack of forgiveness makes the offender feel so badly about themselves that it prevents that person from seeking God out for HIS forgiveness...Do I have that right? I just don't think so.

See...God gave each of us a conscience. He didn't give just a few of us a conscience to decide for everybody else if they are doing bad or good. He gave each of us a conscience so that he could tell whether we made our own decisions or not, so that each of us could be accountable for our OWN wrongdoing...

We have to trust that he'll straighten it out later, that those who don't SEEK forgiveness will suffer in their own way through life and in death as well. Sad, if you ask me.

How do you forgive someone if you can't forget what they did? I tell myself to hate the act, the sin, not the sinner...Hate what they did. Seek understanding, not remorse. If you get remorse, recognize it, absorb it, be glad. But don't expect to or feel bad if you can't forget about what happened. That would be foolish, if you ask me. God expects us to use our brains and our instincts to protect ourselves and those we love.

Which leads me to always wonder...is it okay with God if I keep my forgiveness to myself? lol You know...I, I just doubt that. I really do. What good is it then, you know? There's no complete closure there. It's like a story with no end.

In some faiths we're taught to SEEK forgiveness. Some people don't have a faith. They were never taught. FOO issues...no spiritual upbringing...whatever the cause...is it better to approach that person and say "You know John...I'll never forget what you did to me, but I forgive you because I need to do that for myself, and if you ever want to talk to me about it, we can do that. I just wanted you to know that I'm open to that." And then walk away? Detach. I think yes. I've never tried it exactly that way...but I do wonder if that's how it's supposed to be...

Solee,

What you are describing is pretty much Acceptance. It moves you forward to self-healing and a better place for yourself. It moves you past the grudge, and allows you to release that energy from yourself. It is about you, your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your Higher Power (if any), and your relationship with the universe (including people) around you. You can forgive in this way, but you certainly shouldn't forget the lesson you learned. It also, by no means, implies that you should continue to put yourself in harm's way. You should also be accountable for not doing yourself harm just as much as you are accountable for not doing others harm.

I think we are mostly in agreement, even if I can no longer (by any wild stretch of the imagination) be considered Christian.

What I work on is compassion and understanding. I can have compassion for a person, and understanding of why that person did what he/she did, without agreeing with what that person did. In fact, I can vehemently disagree. I also work past any feelings of hate toward the person or their actions. Hate is like an internal, emotional cancer. That doesn't mean that I don't still disagree with the actions.

I keep my Acceptance to myself, and always have. As I said in my last email regarding our marriage to my ex, "Nothing needs to be said to end a marriage." This is true. I don't feel any need to seek him out to let him know where I'm at emotionally. It is in the past for me, and I don't want any contact with him. I do have complete closure for myself. However, I do think that this is an individual call. If you feel that your relationship with yourself and your Higher Power (again, if any) require you to share your Acceptance/Forgiveness to gain closure, by all means do that.

Of course! There is always hope for people. Sometimes it is very hard for us to see/feel it, though.

Hurt,

The ONLY reason I asked you this question was to see if you were sure you were done. If I were in your shoes, I would definitely be done. But I am not you, nor is anyone else here.

There are some BS's who would give yet another chance to a WS just like yours, IF he were willing to do whatever they needed to heal from the betrayals. I needed to know where you stood on this.

Since I cannot tell you what I wanted to in private, I will just tell you now. Going out and getting a killer job right now WILL affect child support. Please be aware of that. Your WS could end up paying little, if any. Or, you could end up paying him. Ridiculous, huh!

Contact a lawyer and ask for their guidance on the employment situation. People here have great advice on HOW to find employment, but you also need to consider WHEN. It is time to switch into strategic mode, so that you can protect and provide for your daughter as much as possible.

H@23,

I have never given this advice to anyone before, but my advice to you is RUN!!!!!!! If you were my daughter I would be trying to DRAG you and DD out of the situation.(Not very MB I know, but that's a mother's love).

Read Controlling People and The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?, both by Patricia Evans. They may not save your marriage, but they will give you DEEP understanding as to what has happened in your M and why it is NOT your fault.

sexymamabear's advice about a lawyer is on the money.

Blessings to you,

WH2LE

H23...has he EVER hit you?

Mamabear,

I am not intrested in working it out. I told him that it would be a miracle from heaven if we were togeather a year from now. His family has started to call me now... ofcourse trying to convince me to stay. but I cant let anyone make the decision for me.

About the job situation; what if he cant afford to pay our mortgage/rent and his rent, plus daycare, etc with just his salary? How does that work out? What he makes each month just barely pays our bills now. Can we agree in counseling on child support or is it strictly determined by the court?

He said he may not be posting anymore because the "negativity" on his thread. THen he told me that i can "entertain it if i want". I have a hard time explaining to him that little things like that are ways of manipulating/controlling me to do what he wants. He trys to make me feel guilty for posting.

mk,

he hasnt HIT me but has gotten pretty aggressive before

If his aggression was physical (restraining or pushing) I would be very careful around him. Abusers do not like losing control and will at times, act in very violent ways to hold on to their "possessions."

Take every and any threat very seriously.

He is a very weak man. You can and will do better. Heal yourself and then when the time is right, you will find a man deserving of the title "husband."

if he has been aggressive it will more likely then not turn physical at some point. each time my ex lost a little more control of me and the situation he became more "aggressive" until one night he kicked in the front door, shoved me against the wall in front of our kids, using every profanity possible. i had him arrested on the spot. even with arrest and restraining order he got very close to being rearrested with the texts he was taunting me with.

as far money. don't worry about him! by law he has to pay you child support and if you have been a sahm or only worked part time, you can get alimony too usually. get a lawyer and they will figure it out. if you go back to work, which you probably will have to get a job to make ends meet, just be sure you make less then he does, at least for now. i am still in college but did get a job in my field while i am finishing. but i still make about half of what he does. so, my ex has to pay cs, plus 100% of all child care. if both of your names are on the mortgage see if you can get it in just your name, if not, than just put it in the agreement that you would like one year to refinance and that if you can't you will sell it at that time. You can't force your ex to pay his portion of the mortgage. mine has not paid a dime on our in 3 years and now wants to say he is going to force me to sell. bite me! we'll see what a judge says and i am hoping to get some money for the fact he hasn't given me any. he would have let it go into foreclosure rather than pay on a house he was not living in.

you can do this and should do this. i for one do not blame you at all for your feelings. and i think the only reason your ex even posted here was for another attempt to try and control you. it is almost like he stalked you and found you posting here so he had to post too so we would feel sorry for him or something, who knows. did he honestly think we would say "oh, look how hard he is working, he came here and posted for us to help his wife.." hell no! if he had posted begging for help on how HE could change, that would be one thing, but he posts all about you and the help you need. the only help you need is advice on how to get the hell away from him and fast.

keep posting, and get as far away from him as you can.

mlhb

These are all CLEAR abuse tactics. Have I recommended that you read the book "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"? It will give you a great insight into who he is, and why he is, and how you'll never get a day's rest with him.

Another abuser tactic. They are always the victim. It's part of their verbal manipulative ability, to twist anything around so that they need to be cared for, pitied, look better, etc.

Make sure you find a lawyer, today! Call United Way (www.unitedway.org) and ask them to help you get connected to the right people.

I will recommend two books to you.

Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
No Visible Wounds by Mary Susan Miller, PHd.

Please take care of yourself.

Takola, would it be possible for you to post or send me the detailed explanation of these? I know it is my obsessiveness that's holding me back from full recovery.

And not to completely threadjack this, Hurting, I know you are scared about the finances. Most lawyers will give you a free 30 minute consultation and that's enough time to learn about the local divorce and custody laws. It's a lot less frightening when you have the information. Yes, your finances will turn into a mess for a while but you can straighten it out later. Honey, you need to get out of that situation.

Hi Tabby! I really wish I had the notes to expand upon those points better, but I lost all my notes on all studies I had done into personal relationship and marital strategies when I lost my house and most of my belongings. I dug that post up from another board (because it was so long ago on this board that I couldn't find it).

When you challenge your negative thoughts, it goes something like this:

"Man, all people are out to get me." or "Men are just like that." or "I probably asked for it." or "My life is now destroyed."

You then do a catch, "Hey, I'm thinking pretty negatively." (I used to sit and list all the negative thoughts, assumptions, and attitudes that I had.) You deliberately choose to challenge the validity of the negative thought. You challenge your own thoughts. (I'll use the life is now destroyed one in my example of challenging. I really did go through this exact thought process.)

"Is that the way it really is? Is my LIFE really DESTROYED? How do I define my life? Do I really define my entire life based upon my marriage/home/gadgets/job/career? No. I don't. My life is so much more than any of those things. I have my family, friends, education, intellect, and so much more. Well, then, what am I saying? I guess I'm saying that none of these things that have gone wrong are my life, even all put together, and they don't have the power to destroy it if I don't let them. The time that these things were in my life is over, but they were not and are not my life."

You can do this with any negative thought. Are all men really like that? Is everyone really out to get you? Did you really ask for the treatment you received? Are you really unable to move on? Does the situation really have that much power over you? What if you look at it a different way? What if it was an experience, it hurt, you learned, and your life is now better because of it? You will make better decisions and move on as a stronger person because of it?

You will find that you, all on your own, can dispel most of these negative thoughts fairly easily. We are quite able to shift our own paradigm, if only we are willing to give it a bit of effort. It is also EASIER for us to do this for ourselves then for someone else to do it for us. Someone else challenging us can quite easily (and often) trigger a defensive reaction.

When you challenge your habitual response to injury, it goes something like this:

How do I react when this type of injury happens to me? Is there a pattern? Why, yes, there is. I always get angry, express my frustration, beat myself up internally, internalize the blame, hold a grudge, grumble about it for years... (Whatever it is for you.) Do I REACT or do I RESPOND? Hey, why do I do that? Is that really helpful for me? Is this healthy for me? What can I do to change the pattern? What is a healthier way to respond?

You can also do this with your assumptions, "Hey, if I process this and let go of my anger, does that really mean that I can't protect myself in the future? How can I protect myself in the future without holding onto this internal pain?"

Medication is used in extremely stressful situations to temporarily help us handle the stressful situation. Anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications are good examples. As your stress levels increase, your body requires more of its own mood stabilizing biochemicals - especially seratonin and dopamine. Anti-depressants like SSRIs inhibit your body's re-absorbtion of its seratonin, thus increasing the amounts you have.

I discussed distraction (I called it escapism) in another post on this thread to H@23.

Thought stopping is perhaps the most difficult, but the most useful, as well. Thought stopping is when you detect that you are going into a negative state of mind and train of thought. You then do a catch, and deliberately and consciously redirect your thoughts elsewhere. You can use a distraction to assist you with this. Example:

"Man, that SOB really used me. Did he really think I was going to put up with that forever? I mean, honestly, if he did, he must never have had any respect for me at all. It was probably his intention to use me all along..."

CATCH! "I'm thinking negatively and going down the slippery slope thought process. This never leads me any place worth going. I just end up getting stressed and resentful. I need to think about something else. That story on the news last night about the polar bear in Germany was interesting..."

If you cannot think about something else at that time (your mind keeps going back), pick up the phone and call someone to have a postive, neutral chat with.

Seek social support. Well, that's what people do out here on MB. That's what people do when they talk to their family and friends. That is what people do when they contact a support group. This is very helpful. I personally recommend a good, qualified individual therapist if you can swing it financially at all.

Use visualization, relaxation, and meditation. The breathing exercises I suggested in an earlier post on this thread are an example. There are various methods of doing this. Deep, controlled breathing exercises is one. Yoga and meditation are good, and you can combine these with visualization. Many yoga CDs and DVDs included guided visualization meditation, and you can play many guided meditations (including visualization) on YouTube for free.

Applying stimulus control. This means that you control stimuli that cause you to begin feeling negative or bad in any way. Any stimulus that causes you to focus on your source of pain is best avoided, especially initially. When you apply this to relationships, Helen Fisher hits on it very well in her book, "Why we love," and Harley hits on it with his explanation for "No Contact". In a marriage that is over, for instance, get the wedding photos down off the walls and hang up a cheerful print. Heck, print one out on your own printer. Remove that stimulus. If you see a certain object that always reminds you of the injury or person/situation that caused the injury, get rid of it. If you don't want to throw it away, shove it under the couch, bed, or in the attic. Did the injury occur at the coffee shop on Main Street? Don't go there.

These are Tak's words to describe the strategies. I wish I had my notes from my talk with Janis...but I don't. I highly suggest that you read her book "How Can I Forgive You" for many of these strategies for Acceptance.

Thanks Takola! This stuff is great!

To people here on MB, can we get this woman off of the public MB boards, and perhaps create a Yahoo Group for her with limited membership access? Let me know what you think. She doesn't seem safe here at all. If anyone creates this, or has already done so, I am reachable at takola_mb@hotmail.com Please let me know.

To H@23:

My my my.


I agree with you here. His focus is on keeping/losing you, not on protecting you or improving the marriage. His focus doesn't even seem to be on the hurt he has caused to you and the marriage (and, therefore, his daughter), except insofar as it helps him to keep you from leaving him. Even so, there are limited things he is willing to do for that.

While this is typical of a WS in a "fog", I do not think the cause for your husband is the "fog". There are too many indications of this being a perpetual, long-term state of mind.


When and why did his family begin contacting you? I suggest that you let them know that this will be your decision, and they need to respect that. Try, "I appreciate your concern, but I really am not going to discuss this with you. I will make the decision that is best for me and my daughter, and I hope you respect that. Would you like to talk about something else?"


You can come to your own separation agreement separate from the court, and it will generally be honored. However, his financial responsibility - especially for your daughter - is his financial responsibility. It is a calculation based upon his income and a state formula, not based upon his existing expenses. If he finds that he has to make adjustments to his lifestyle to meet the obligations, then that is what he needs to do. I strongly suggest that you not low ball the child support. That is his responsibility as a parent to his child, not a responsibility he has to you personally. It is a responsibility that you both incurred when you became parents. The state formulas account for your responsibility, as well. Given that you are so close to graduation, and that your schooling and that situation were accepted in the marital situation, you should be able to complete your schooling. Both of you will need to make adjustments to your standard of living to your new circumstances. How he does that is his responsibility, not yours. You have enough responsibility with handling your own situation.

I do not think it is wise for you to continue to enable him. It is not your job to protect him from the legitimate consequences of his own actions. Doing so, in fact, just helps him continue his behavior.

You really need to contact an attorney. As I said before, law schools have legal clinics that can assist you. Start calling around. Someone else suggested a free consultation with an attorney, and I strongly suggest this as well. The attorney can give you an overview of the law, answer your questions, and help you to set your expectations.

The House of Ruth should be able to help you in locating assistance and support for your situation. If there is not a House of Ruth near you, they should be able to point you in the right direction. http://www.hruth.org/


I'm not surprised at his response to his thread, honestly. I was fully expecting it. His thread was a token post in an attempt to keep you with him, not a sincere attempt to address his problems. He will find ways to justify it as it being anyone's responsibility but his own. Even with those who aren't generally controlling and manipulative, the knee-jerk response you get to D-day and exposure rarely leads to lasting change or any deeper realizations.

He will not see the problem with his actions. He fully justifies this behavior to himself. Right now, whether or not he sees it isn't the important thing. Focus on yourself, what you know, and trust in that. He will not have a moment of miraculous epiphany and understand what is going on and what he is doing. Such things don't work that way in real life. It is a long, hard road that he has before he reaches an understanding of self-responsibility.

I think you need a safe place to post, sweetie. That's why I put my suggestion at the top of this response. Please strongly consider it. My email is at the top.

Brilliant idea, Tak!

This is great advice, btw. Absolutely great advice.


We really need to get her off of this public board.

I can start a board, Tak, but I won't be consistent in replying. However, if this poster is with the folks she trusts most, I wouldn't really even worry about it, and would certainly desire to check on it, once in a while.

H@23,

Takola is a long-time MB vet. Perhaps you do not know her, but you can search her posts. It may be worth it for you to do so.

I am also a vet, Zuzus_Petals, or some variation. It's been a while since I used that name. Anyway, we're not exactly the cavalry, but we'll do what we can, or maybe someone else can.

YIM/ZP

I tend to agree with the others, as of today, he's still not protecting you, he's done great harm to you and the marriage and he doesn't yet get it.

The great thing is that the only thing you really have to do is to watch what happens. You don't need to make any life changing decisions today.

It certainly makes sense to ensure that you and your children are taken care of, so whatever it takes to do that, do it.

As far as his family, tell them what you are doing. Tell them that what he has done has greatly hurt you, and you are not sure that you can recover. However, their interference is likely to make you think he's trying to control, manipulate the situation.

I'd put to rest any fears they may have regarding losing access to their grandchildren. I don't believe they should be punished or excluded from the kids lives if ultimately you decide you can no longer have him as a husband.

It's likely they are also hurt and ashamed of his behavior. It's also possible they have no clue how damaging his behavior has been to you and the marriage.

So what I'm saying is, they likely have NO CLUE how you are feeling and have likely heard only one side of the story.

So when you evaluate their behavior, I simply ask you to consider their perspective.

I believe you husband has much work to do to address himself.

So my advice is to sit back, in your safe place, and see if he's moving in the right direction or not.

There are many here who will help you determine what that is.

Ultimately, if you want him to remain a close part of your life, you will have to help define what that safe place is, as each of us have different ideas of what that safety includes. But right now, you are looking for evidence that he's really willing to do the work needed to address the already known unsafe behaviors such as contact with any OW's, efforts and control or manipulation.

I find it's a difficult problem, because on one hand, he does want control. He may or may not want to control you, but he does want control over the situation. On the other hand, I'm sure you want some control over the situation as well.

It's likely neither of you know exactly what to do.

You may feel like it's obvious what he should do or should not do. Sleeping with an OW is obvious.

What he should do now is not so obvious to him. There may be some obvious general things he can do. However, if you are really interested in sending a clear message, then tell him specifically what you need.

I suggested to him a controlled separation, where both of you develop a separation agreement with a counselor or pastor, something you both agree upon. With some defined objectives, some boundaries and a specified time limit.

It's not an ending point, but a starting point that hopefully would lead to an environment where BOTH of you feel safe.

Right now, neither of you feel safe. Not him, not you. He hurt you in an incredible way, and you may want to watch him twist in the wind, you may not care he doesn't feel safe given what he's done.

I understand that, having been betrayed myself.

However, I also know that you don't heal by inflicting pain on another person. Even unintentional pain is still pain.

You may totally reject what I'm saying. He may never get it, ever. However, if there is any hope of saving your marriage, it will have to be a safe place for both of you.

I agree that he has been the one to compromise the safety of the marriage, and you would be justified to tell him to just take a hike, I don't trust you any more, etc. I would not fault you for doing this.

However, if this is the rock bottom he needed to get it, and you walked away now, it would be you doing a lot of the work and later on someone else benefits from your pain.

And what is there to lose if he doesn't ever get it? You don't have to decide that today. You can watch and see if he's a worker, or a blamer.

After he gets over his fear, he may just buckle down and do the work needed.

I pray he will, because even if you do divorce him, both of you will benefit from his changes.

So I encourage you to pray that he can accomplish the things he's saying right now. Even if you are lead to divorce him, what harm does it do to pray that he's the husband you've always wanted.

I'm not saying to expect it, but rather ask God to show him the way, and to show you if he's really doing it, or just trying to manipulate.

I'm sorry you're here.

I had no idea that his wife was posting here! I posted to him
early on and asked that some vets step in.

I agree with much of what's posted. He could actually even have a personality disorder- but that's not an excuse for his bad behavior.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry you're here and that I hope you can stay safe.

Response to EE:


She's tried that, and the latest D-day is the result. Even he admits that.

If what he needs to do (get some counseling, stop the manipulation - which he hasn't, 100% honesty, 100% accountability, etc) isn't obvious to him, it has been flat-out told to him. This isn't the first time he's had an affair or been presented with this information.


Right now, her home is not a safe place for her, so what "safe place" are you suggesting?

She's already said she doesn't want to be with him, so why would she be interested in seeing what direction he is moving in? She's to the point of serious Plan B and separation. What he needs to work on is another matter, and she should not be around to witness and get hurt by it.


It is possible, but there are other possibilities. I reserve judgment on this, as I think everyone should.


As she's part of the situation, if he wants control over the situation, that - by default - includes her. He's obsessing about what he can and can not get from her. In fact, it is all about what is in it for him. The situation may be difficult, but the course of action is not. Controlling behavior is unsafe behavior, and separation is necessary for safety.


Sounds to me like she's already determined that. She doesn't need anyone to question her choices. If she were unsure, I'd agree with you on this. However, she isn't unsure, and she hasn't once wavered in that.


Really? Where does he say he feels unsafe? I have completely missed that post. The only thing he has said he is unhappy about is that she's leaving.


He's not at rock-bottom right now. He still has his same home situation. The only difference is his wife doesn't want to be with him. If it weren't for that, he'd be perfectly happy. He says as much in his first post.


This is something for you to discuss with him, EE, not her. She has not shown or expressed any interest in anything other than a permanent end to this relationship. You suggesting that she needs a specified time limit on her separation is really invalidating of that. What time limit does she need on a permanent end?

Your suggestions all presume that she is willing to even consider continuing a relationship with her husband, and she has consistently said the opposite of that.


I have yet to read about any pain she's causing to him except that she doesn't want to be with him.


I think it is pretty evident which one he is, and I think it has been evident to her for longer than for any of us. This is a serial infidelity situation, not a new discovery. These observations have already been made. Your post really disregards and invalidates that.


First of all, you assume that she believes in any deity whatsoever. If she does, I think she should be praying that she find the path she needs to take and finds healing and joy.

Further, this would only apply if she is interested at all in a relationship with him. Right now she isn't. Not at all. She has been 100% clear and equivocating about that. I doubt she will ever be, but if she ever is, it isn't likely to be anytime in the near future. She needs to be separate and away to even determine with a calm state of mind what she wants to do.

You know me (yes, I know who you are), and you know that I am pro-marriage, and do not suggest divorce lightly. This situation is way beyond what you suggest in your post. It is ongoing, repeat offense. If this were a first-time MBer, I might agree with you. If half of what you say about her causing pain were substantiated in the posts of this story, I might understand. As it is, you are way off the mark, there is a significant amount of putting responsibility for his behavior onto her, and I think you are projecting onto this situation things from your own situation.

As for him, he has issues that require a trained, qualified, licensed therapist, not just the advice of a bunch of arm-chair (or computer chair) marriage builders.

If she's willing, I think that is a super idea.

Your final sentence is exactly why he needs to get to a qualified, licensed therapist himself ASAP. I strongly suspect it, as well. The evidence given (even the evidence given by him) does not support the idea that his problem is a short-term affair fog, and they don't paint a picture of blooming mental health. Of course, I have several things I suspect, but I am not qualified, licensed, or a therapist, and I have only what is on this board to go on. Thus, I will keep my suspicions on that to myself.

Well, am I qualified or not? Later you suggest I'm not in a position to make a suggestion.

Only she can decide what is or is not a safe place, right?
I really don't know. We all have opinions and I'm not saying mine is the only one with merit.

She may never want to be with him. I think I've clearly said this. I've simply suggested that she take the time to see if he really does the work. In other words, I validate that she is where she is today. I suggest that this may not be the same in the future and no permanent decision need to be made today.

So in no way have I invalidated what she feels, regardless of how you might characterize what I've written.
Thank you. That's all I'm saying. They may be just as manipulative as he is as well. There is an infinite range of possibilities.
This is where I disagree, wanting control over a situation doesn't mean one wishes to control a person. Otherwise, she would also want to control him, right? So I disagree that wanting control over a situation automatically means desiring control over a person.

It is possible that he does want control over her. So I don't rule that out. However, one can't automatically make the link you are making here.
Anytime someone has experienced an emotional trauma, they are encouraged to take their time with any permanent changes, decisions, etc.

I don't think I'm saying anything that goes counter to this nor do I invalidate how she feels at this moment.
Do you really think he is not afraid? He is afraid his family is breaking up. That doesn't sound like he's feeling secure.

Do I have sympathy for him? Heck no, he put the holes in his own sinking ship.

But I don't think it would be accurate to say the he doesn't feel safe at the moment.

Is that her fault? Not really. But it is likely an accurate description of his condition.

So, one might say, who cares, he did this to himself. As a human being, I guess I care.
Agreed, he may need to go lower. He may also get it now. The depth at which someone gets it is likely different for every one of us. It took my former wife to have an affair for me to get it, and was too later for her, so she was unable to see that I got it. He may be getting it, he may need to sink lower.

None us know. The only thing that will tell is his consistent action. Not even the previous infidelities can really tell us if he gets it or not.

I agree, it makes it less likely. But it's not without hope.
I made a respectful request to consider this. She is free to ignore this and I wouldn't blame her.
My suggestions presume nothing, they are all conditional on her willingness to take them. They are suggestions and as I've stated numerous times before, one is to take them or leave them. Since you know who I am, and what I've said before, this is not inconsistent with what I've previously stated.
You don't think he is hurt by her desire to end the marriage? Even if he is the scum of the earth, he is not impervious to pain. Does that mean that his wounds are not largely self-inflicted? Nope, not at all. They are a natural consequence of his actions. The most loving thing she may be able to do at this moment is to NOT shield him from the consequences of his actions.

That doesn't mean her actions will not be painful.

Perhaps she just doesn't care anymore. I know I certainly understand that perspective.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Has she protected him from the consequences of his actions before? If so (and I'm not blaming her) it may have made it difficult for him to see how really hurtful his actions were to her.

It's possible it enabled his denial.

Again, this is not blame, nor should it be taken as invalidation of where she is.
I believe her husband spoke of their pastor. I could be mistaken, but I am under the impression she has a Christian background. If I am wrong, then I apologize for the faulty assumption.
Really, other than her decision to separate, where have I said she has caused pain.

To deny this is painful to him is to disconnect with reality.

Now, am I saying this is malicious or unwarranted? Not at all. Maybe folks believe he's not worthy of mercy, and that's certainly their right to have that opinion.

However, some believe that mercy is for everyone who is repentant.

So how can you speak of invalidation, while it seems you wish to invalidate a different POV?

I think the real question is, is he really repentant? I tend to agree with others that he's not there yet. He may not get there in time to change the marriage for the good. It may be too late for her, and I would not say she is not justified if she held on to that view forever.

Like others, I'm simply saying this is not a decision that needs to be made today.

I'd say it is all but definite that he is. But that doesn't put any onus on her to do anything about it. Not wanting to be with someone isn't a Love Buster. It isn't controlling. It is a personal boundary, and just is.


You can make a suggestion, of course. Equally of course, she is the only one qualified to decide where she is feels safe. My objection to what you've said is that in its context it sounds like you are suggesting she is already in the safe place. My apologies if this is not what you were suggesting.


There are many things to this. First, let me put it in premise, premise, etc, conclusion format for you.

Premise: She is included in the situation.
Premise: He wants to control the entire situation.
Conclusion: If he controls the entire situation, he also controls her/her part in it.

This conclusion isn't a matter of what he does or doesn't want. It is a product of deductive logical reasoning.

Now, separate from that, it is very clear from his posts that he does want to control her/what she does. He wants reassurance that she will be there for him. He wants to know how to get her to stay. He isn't going to support her going to a safe location (or him going away so she is safe), because it is contrary to what he wants. It is in his history that even he admits to. His lies served to keep her in a situation to which she wouldn't knowingly agree. That's controlling her by preventing her from knowing the truth and making a decision based upon that truth. It is in her posts, as well.

What is in neither his nor her posts is her desire to control anything. She simply wants to get away. That's all she says she wants. That's it, nothing more. She hasn't asked for him to do anything this time. That is the complete opposite of controlling or wanting control. She is moving her own life elsewhere so that she can control her life. That's fine.


Yes, you have, by ignoring that she is 100% clear that she doesn't want him to fix anything, because she doesn't want a relationship with him. All she wants is away, yet you posted to her all the things she can do to see if the marriage is fixable. That ignores her repeated statements that she doesn't want to fix the marriage, not at all.

http://eqi.org/invalid.htm (This is an awesome site for Emotional Intelligence, btw.)


See the link above on this one. She's said what she wants. You suggest that people may be able to help her find what she wants. This totally invalidates her by ignoring what she has said. Worst case, it deliberately ignores it because you don't feel it is really a good decision.


I care what he has done to everyone, including himself. Worse, he doesn't even seem to realize what he is doing to anyone, especially himself.

However, the fact that she's leaving him doesn't inherently make him unsafe. Now, if she were screaming, yelling, threatening, and LBing all over the place, I'd agree with you.


What little hope there may be for his marriage is something that can only be determined long-term, and through consistent change in him. At any rate, it needs to be addressed in him. Right now, she's done. She has every single right to be done. It isn't something to address with her now. For us, it is never something to address with her. If he makes the changes he needs to and demonstrates it consistently, then (years from now, as that will take) he can address it with her and ask her if she's willing to consider giving him another chance.


I think you could better phrase this so that it appears as a respectful/thoughtful request, and that you've read and seriously understand what she's said about not wanting a relationship with him. I think a question would get this intent across better than what you said...like starting it with, "Would you be willing to consider a controlled separation?...."


Well, you put this pain in the same sentences and paragraphs with what he is doing (cheating, lying, berating her for her posts) which are huge LBs. It sends the message that she's doing something on par with what he is doing. Not everything that is painful is unsafe or an LB. His reaction to what she wants definitely is unsafe, though.


Never have I said your opinion is invalid. I haven't even ignored it. I've addressed it. What I'm saying, though, is that what she has said isn't evident in your posts. It doesn't seem to address what she's said she wants at all. Now, from what you say in your reply, it doesn't seem to be the intent. For this, I suggest simply that you be more clear that you've heard what she's said, consider it, and respect it.


I think the real question for him is what, if anything, is he going to do to change his behavior and fix his problems, and how to proceed. The real question for her is what to do with her decisions, and how to proceed. The two aren't dependent upon each other at all. He will make his choice. She will make hers. Then, only the future will tell how things play out.

Thanks for the link. I think it pretty clearly demonstrates that I have not invalidated her.

I don't think one can say I've ignored how she feels when I've repeatedly said that if she never wants him back again, I can understand and support that decision.

Checking what I write against the link you suggested confirms that I'm NOT invalidating her, as I don't tell her what to feel, I certainly don't defend him, or say she is wrong to feel what she feels etc.

To say she MAY (not that she will) feel something different in the future is as close as I come to invalidation. However, listing it as a possibility does not invalidate how she feels today. Yet, since I don't say she WILL feel differently tomorrow, I don't believe this rises to the threshold of invalidation.

Actually, what you are doing is the largest one of all. I don't think he covers it in the examples, it is in the larger reading and articles.

She's said, "I don't want to fix it."

You then come out and post a lengthy post with all the things she should be looking for from him to know he's "for real" (which only matters if she's continuing a relationship with him), and things that she can do (controlled separation is a marital strategy with a goal of reuniting the marriage). There are few (2?) references in there to, "But maybe/if you don't want to do this." Maybe? If? She's already said she doesn't.

The opposite would be something like this, "I know you don't want to try. If you should change your mind, here are some things you should look for in his behavior...Would you be willing to even consider a controlled separation?"

The majority of your post wouldn't be about how she can go about doing what she already says she doesn't want to do, with a "maybe/if you don't want to" tacked in.

There is no maybe or if, she's said what she wants.

i would NOT give him anymore chances.
in his latest post he says a list of things he needs to work on. one of the things on the list was "abuse of animals"
i'll tell you from experience that will lead to abuse of people. that is a HUGE red flag right there. Her safety is definitely at risk if she stays with this man.

nope, any changes he wants to make, let him make them from a different living space.

mlhb

I wanted to reframe from posting here, but MLHB let me explain to you the situations. You can still have your judgement, and call what I'm saying another excuse, or justification. My wife has no reason to protect me now, or how you people like at me, so I'd defend my self.

We were in a very intense argument a year ago in which she said she was leaving. We had a boxer (if you know the breed) in a 600sq ft apartment, and my wife thought it was time for the dog to go. We had an alterication and she decided she was going to her mothers for awhile. I didn't agree with my dog leaving at the time, and instead of understanding her I told her, when my dog leaves one of those cats has to leave. (One particular cat I didnt like) She didnt agree. After no resolve, she said she was going to her mothers, and I grab the cat by the neck and tossed him out the door, and said "thats fine and take this cat with you."

If you grab a cat in a certain way, it will not hurt it, but I throw it. I didnt get scratched, and he didnt break anything. But I did it.

A few months back I was sick with the flu, and fustrated, and I dont usually hit my dog, (this is a new dog, I gave up the boxer after that first incident, we now have a new home, and yard) but, I acted out against him one morning he didnt hold his urine and poop. It was my fault, b/c even though I was sick in the bed for longer than usual, he was used to going out at 8. I was sick and forgot all about him. I did apologize, about it, and havent hit him since, but the event did happen.

and i will tell you that what my ex did to our dogs he would call "discipline"

when he was in the "heat of the moment" like the events you describe, he would take it out on the animals.

Our dog did something one time, I don't even remember what it was, something very small though, and he grabbed him and started punching him in the head until the p*ssed on the floor. Then my ex beat him for that.

It was not all of the time mind you, but it was there, randomly. To this day when my dog sees him he will cower. My ex thinks it is out of respect, but it is fear.

It is about control, tmt, bottom line. Everything in your posts talks about control. You have no right to try to control another person or an animal like that. I know you are trying to get some help. Good for you because you need it. With control issues come anger issues. I still stand my advice that your wife should leave. You can show her your actions from a different living space. I know exactly how she feels and how deep the damage the is. And I won't believe a word out of you until I have seen consistency for at least 6 months to a year. Talk is cheap. You know you blew it this time. And you are kissing [censored] big time not to have to leave.

She has a male friend now too you say? Well, I am not saying it is right, but good lord do you blame her?

mlhb

H23

I don't for a second want to minimize what has happened to you. But I can promise you it can get worse.

I want to caution you. You are incredibly vulnerable and there are men who prey on women who are hurting - especially young 23 yr olds (that's younger than I was when I got married).

Avoid confiding in any MAN - fatherly, brotherly, high school buddy or otherwise. If you have started, STOP. I PROMISE you this will only add to your pain down the road.

The worst recovery stories I've read on General Questions or Divorced/Divorcing include situations where the woman felt "appreciated", "admired", "flattered", "attractive" after going through the h*llish betrayal of an unfaithful husband and all it's side effects - loss of self-esteem and confidence, feeling unattractive, unlovable, etc. Those who caved in hated themselves for falling to the level of their wayward husbands. A vow is a vow, and it involves 3 people not two - a wife and a husband and God. God hadn't broken His vow with these women, and they knew that they had betrayed Him and themselves, which only intensified their pain.

Please be cautious!

Is a guy, I agree with Kayla. I know those kind of guys. The "come cry on my shoulder" kinda guys who fill every EN in a vulnerable woman, all the time having a hidden agenda. I HATE those SOB's.

And there are a TON around!

i agree that it is not right and do be careful. i COMPLETELY understand that compared to your husband, i am sure it is very nice to have a nice guy to talk to and confide in. but do beware. you are still married...

mlhb

If you saw another person hit a dog or throw a cat across the room, what would you think of that person? Did you know that one of the first signs of an abusive person is a tendency/proclivity to hurt animals? Because they are defenseless and loyal, and yet offer the abuser an 'easy' way to get rid of his 'frustration.'

Do you recognize yourself yet? No? Then let me ask you this: If your mother is alive, is she aware of all of this? All of it? The honest version of it, not the cleaned up one? And what does she say?

that was why i pointed that stuff out.
my ex has had anger issues since childhood built up.
early on in our marriage, our early 20's, it started with verbal stuff, saying awful things. then we got the dog (in our early 20's) and i saw treatment like tmt is talking about. fast forward a few years later, the verbal continuing, and as i stopped tolerating it, and had him leave, and as he starting losing the control he once had, he got physical with me. once and only once because i had him arrested after that. BUT, in hindsite, i absolutely can say that i knew it was just a matter of time before it got to that.

2 times with the animals is 2 too many.
of course you feel sorry after you did it. all abusers feel sorry after the fact. but they can't control it til it is too late.

mlhb

H@23,

I know you're hurting. Please, please, either find a women's shelter or church group or someone to turn to.

We have the offer of forming a message board for you, and the email contact.

There is nothing like feeling the love of friends and a support group after being through something like this. Please seek refuge.

TMT,

If you truly are wanting to help your wife heal, let her go to a safe place for a while. That way, you can be sure your anger won't get the best of you and hurt her even more.

Please, please, seek help from a qualified counselor. Start at church and go from there.

I know that you must be feeling a lot of pain right now, and I don't want to minimize that, but I implore you not to cause more pain for you and your wife, by allowing her to seek support, whether internet or in person.

I thank you and everyone else that has posted about me covering myself from other men and their good/bad intentions. I know this is a very touchy time for me an I take all your advice to heart.

I would like to clarify that no I am not attracted to this guy, the ONLY reason i "spilled the beans" to him was because he asked what was bothering me and he is very much a God fearing man who is caring. He is my friend but we do not talk about deep/personal things... ever.

No i would never do anything that would compromise my values that i have for myself and that God has given me. I have not lived up to my fullest as a christian for 2-3 years but i still have morals.

I told this man that i was possibly getting divorced and that was it. NO whys, no hows, no whens, or wheres! And his reponse: " oh man thats terrible, its not my place to give advice on that, but i will pray for your strength." Conversation over.

My soon to be ExH has forgotten that while he has drug me through the mud, i know who God is and i knew Him before i met him. He comes on this tread reading and harrassing me, and flinging scripture and God around like his own personal mop and bucket trying to cover his dirt tracks.

Im sorry if i come off as angry but i am. He was tired of getting the truth thrown in his face so he tries to exaggerate the truth on something i said so that i can seem irrational or misled in my dicission making. I did however lie to him the first time about what i told this guy, foolishly thinking WH might do something like show up and confront the guy about an event that never occured (an A). He has done nothing so far so i regret making that assumption.

I can whole heartedly say there is NOTHING between this guy and myself. Nothing. This is the last time i will let WH control and manipulate me with his words and actions. The last...

I HOPE YOUR READING THIS TOOMANYTIMES

Hurting_at_23 - I hope this is the truth and if it is, why would you say the following to your husband?



"Attraction" is how it starts, and I think you may be attracted to someone you think is a fine "Christian" man.

If you want to talk to fellow believers, you can do so here or with a trained Christian counselor. But stay away from "face to face" talks with someone of the opposite sex who is NOT your husband or a counselor.

btw,

He NEVER came up to my school, not for lunch, say hello, not for anything. He didnt care because i was going from class to home and back. But when I started staying for tutoring, making more friends (AKA having a LIFE), he wants to start showing up to see who these friends are that i talk about.

Yep I was embarassed when WH came in the room, not cause i was sneaking but b/c he came in frowning saying: "Where you been, ive been calling you, why do you have your phone off!?" I thought the guy would think WH was about to smack me if i didnt try and answer calmly.

He claimed he came up to see my prof to get him to grade my test, i think he wants to have some claim on the A's i have been getting but thats besides the point...

He asked me that if i were single would i find him attractive. and me like an idiot actually answered his question honestly. And FYI just b/c someone is a "fine christian man" as you put it does NOT mean I like him

I see him as a brother, not a lover, I am not stupid and i have a STRONG small group of women as support. I have back up

Like i said we never talk about deep personal things... ever. I told him that and he said hed pray and the subject changed. EOS.
I do believe that as an adult i can have friends. I have not had intimate talks with this guy and i have not been in a room alone with him for more that 5-10 mins.

I guess what im trying to say is that there is no attraction like my WH makes it seem.

FH,

why must i be attracted to a man that is christian? I do believe it would be easier for me to fall into that trap, but just b/c he is a christian man i must be attracted?

Does that mean if i talk to my pastor (who is male and not bad looking) i am going to become infatuated with him?

jus wondering...

H@23,

I think his seeing your professor is an aim at controlling your contacts, myself.

Get safe, stay safe. Snatch up every ounce of support you can find. Check on campus to see what they offer.

YIM

I have been to her school to sign her up for classes in the beginnning of this semester, I've talk to Dr. H to make sure you would get in the class you needed. I've gone to the community service office without you and with you. I only asked Dr. C to grade your test early as a favor, and he had no problem doing it. I asked you to check online and I thought you said he didnt, so I was going to ask him what happened to his promise. I come to the school at least 2 a week to pick you up when you were not already at home. The reason I say that is b/c I would come home during the day after I know she was out of class like 12:30 or 1pm. I started going to her tutoring to pick up our daughter, from her, and thats the most I've been there, honestly. But the real truth is I started to be more interested after the tutoring sessions became later and later, sometimes she wasnt getting home until 10pm. So in reality, these people were seeing my wife more than me and my daughter was.

You've been getting A's because the studying sessions has been helping you, you've been so excited that you've been doing better that your looking at the student page everyday until test arrive. This last test we are speaking of was really important to determine either she'll get a B or an A, so she really wanted to know. the whole weekend she was checking her account, and he hadnt grade the test yet. So monday I just told him she had been working really hard and been looking for him to post the grade that weekend. He told me that he would grade her test just for that and post it that night. Which he did grade but didnt post, so when she got there Dr. C told her, and she was happy, she ditched class and who might I she shared this happiness with first...

Its amazing how you know he is very much God fearing man, that you originally claimed barely knew, and only seen in Dr. C office. You dont have any classes with him, and he dont even go to the same study session, or does he? So, when did you get a chance to know him so well. Maybe those late night study sessions? I guess you were studying physics and the bible.

Hmm...my husband never spoke to my professors before, and the whole class is graded at the same time.

wow,

now you attack me on a thread that is supposed to help me get through this... good job.

this is ofcourse the last time ill post

I'm sorry that you've been discouraged from posting.

Please, keep yourself safe.

Prayers,

YIM

i agree that tmt should NOT be posting here, at least on her thread. it is another control tactic, period.

going to the college, talking to professors: control tactic.
her schooling is her business. she is a big girl, i am sure she can handle whatever needs to be handled herself.

i am in my 3rd year of college. it is a lot of work. sometimes you sacrifice some time with your family to get the work done knowing the outcome will be good in the end. you, tmt, have no right to go to her school, talk to her professors,anything.

hurting23, if you would still like to be able to talk safely, we will gladly start a message board for you. it is easy as pie to do. and tmt will not know about it. you will be safe and private. let us know, and i am sure i could set something up. and any of the posters here who have been helping could join in on it.

i completely understand why you would not want to post here since he cannot respect you enough not to post on your thread. tmt, we are not interested in your excuses. trying to make you look bad because he is the one that is guilty. it takes some of the guilt away from him to turn the tables. ANOTHER CONTROL TACTIC. tmt, you have a LOT of help you need, a LOT of therapy to get to the root of why you have to control someone else so much. if you were so worried about losing her, you should have not cheated a zillion times.

let us know hurting.

mlhb

H23...you should strongly consider a restraining order against this guy.

He is a control freak and nothing but trouble.

Get and stay FAR away from him.

TMT,

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

What part of creating a safe place for your wife, protecting your wife from you did you fail to understand.

Right now, you are in NO position to judge or tell her how to conduct her life. You've made enough of a mess with your own decisions, why would your wife think you have anything but your own interests in mind.

The very people who might help you, you have largely alienated here, and you all but ignore the advice to give your wife space and safety.

The choice is always yours. However, take a look at how destructive your choices have been so far. You are driving both your wife and those who have chosen to support her away, and are continuing to do so with your choices.

So how's that working for you?

It really doesn't matter what she does. This is about YOUR choices, your failures and the things you need to correct. She will not be there for you because you drove her away. You need to accept this.

If she is valuable to you, then work on you, demonstrate that she is a person of worth to you by becoming a man worthy to be her wife, and pray that she will see it.

If she chooses not to, then accept that you are experiencing the consequences of your actions, and let her go.

The only thing you can control is your actions. Right now, you are not acting like a man she can trust, not acting in her best interests, nor are you offering any sort of protection from your continuing hurtful behaviors.

So get busy with your own self-improvement. You have enough to do that you don't have time to look over at her to see if she is meeting your standards, or is pleasing you.

You don't have a credible position to make such assessments at this time, and may never. The only way you ever will is to fix what you are doing wrong, and make that a permanent, consistent part of your life.

AND YOU STILL MAY NOT GET WHAT YOU DESIRE.

But you will be a better, more Godly man regardless the outcome.

Stop posting on her thread- it's not productive for her or for you. This is one of the reasons she thinks you're controlling.

"He asked me that if i were single would i find him attractive. and me like an idiot actually answered his question honestly."
...
"Like i said we never talk about deep personal things... ever."
...
"I do believe that as an adult i can have friends. I have not had intimate talks with this guy and i have not been in a room alone with him for more that 5-10 mins."

Sounds deep and personal to me. This is likely the way your H's affairs began. Simple conversation with a woman other than his wife in a private setting. Your attempt to justify it with the "I am an adult" attitude is childish and sounds eerily similar to your H.

"I just made myself believe that since I wasnt having sex with them, I wasnt in the wrong,..."

"I can do whatever as long as I'm not having sex." "She doesnt know what she is talking about, I'm fine, I can control myself with other women, they just have to be ones I'm not attracted to."

Your H did have one little lightbulb moment and I hope he can keep it lit, if not with you then in any future relationship. He posted:

...but what really made the difference is I failed to connect and have a positive attitude with my spouse like I did on the phone with other women.

Not only did he fail, he may not have even given it an honest effort.

Sure, you're allowed to have friends of the opposite gender. Just be careful to avoid inappropriate situations or conversations. Being alone with a man other than your H can potentially be inappropriate. Having personal conversations with a man other than your H IS inappropriate.

When this man asked if you found him to be attractive, he was being highly disrespectful of you as a married woman. This was highly inappropriate. You admittedly erred in giving him an honest answer rather than recognizing and immediately removing yourself from an inappropriate situation.

Check your ego and your behavior at the door or you WILL make the same mistakes your WH has made.

Guys
I have registered very recently but I have been in the backgroud reading for the past year. All I wanted to tell you is;
becareful.
Obviously he has done pretty awful things but she is doing dumb things as well. Apparently she has learned from him. Who knows if she's even telling the truth!!....I would be very cautious!!!
How can she not think that talking to this dude is very dangerous??? Isn't this how her Husband A's started??
Once again; be cautious!!

LD