I have been posting in the Recovery forum for almost 2 years under "fog, grieving, how long?"

My husband moved out tonight.

He will be back tomorrow to work out the details.

I asked him to consider separation as he didn't want to do anymore MC work after 18 mos. with Steve Harley and says he still loves the OW.

He has been NC for 2 years and OW is getting married.

He says he doesn't know who he is, much is swirling around in his head.

I suggested IC for him after DDay. His childhood issues created behaviors that got him into a loveless marriage.

Adultery was the outcome after 28 years of marriage.

He has come out of most of the fog except realizing that his feelings for the OW are not love.

He is starting to do IC.

I feel he needs time to deal with working on all that before he can work on recovering a marriage - if he ever actually decides to do so.

I can't continue to invest in a relationship with someone who has never loved me and 5 years after meeting OW and 2 years after DDay says he has "feelings of romantic love" for her.

I know many WS use "space" and "time alone" as excuses to continue an A without interference.

In my husband's case, I believe he needs this.

I know chances increase with separation that he will move towards divorce.

My college age daughters have yet to hear about the separation.

Any advice for me?

77,

Sounds to me like you're enforcing a boundary...and a healthy one, I think, after many previous enforcements. If he has truly had NC for virtually two years, then there's no way his romantic feelings didn't go away after the first year of withdrawal. I'm sorry...his addiction to the feelings was maintained in some way (in self-deceptive stories in his head, fantasies, something).

So by separating, are you going into Plan B? Will you go very dark, use an intermediary (not either of your DDs), so that you can protect any remaining love you have and to ensure you are not in the way of his consequences?

LA

One of the best comforts I had during my actual divorce/separation (when I knew It was truly over) was reading...A special book to me and one I passed on to other women who were in the throws of divorce without possibility of reconciliation is "Cutting Loose" by Abigail Trafford. Regardless of what happens during plan B (I do wish you success), this book was empowering, a huge lifeline for coming out on the otherside...in my case Divorce. Empowering to be sure.

thanks, Loving and Ruby for your posts. I shall look up the book.

Tonight my H and I signed a 3 mos. nonlegal separation agreement based on the book, "Reconcilable Differences".

Also told our daughters.

I told him it was not a good idea for him to come here and "do things" (The same things I had to pull teeth to get him to do before?)that we shouldn't be "seeing" each other.

His purpose of time alone to work on issues was partly the reason for the separation. Not having to expend energy trying to relate to me - which he didn't want to do- would be defeated if he came around.

His continuing feelings for the OW are due to fantasy, and MBing to fantasies of her, but also because he has never loved me and felt resentment being in a marriage to me.

The "feelings" of excitement and "aliveness" generated by the A became addictive. Hard to know at what point it is addiction to the feelings the person generates chemically in the brain, or true love.

My H says he moves slowly, gets things slowly. Perhaps coming out of the fog and realizing the fallacy of his feelings for OW will take longer than the norm. Perhaps he'll never come out.

Perhaps he'll come out, get himself figured out and decide for sure I am definitely NOT for him!

Seems like separation is mostly waiting.

We did agree to phone contact if something of importance came up and we needed to talk.

The story of our journey to this point is in the Infidelity forum under "Fog, grieving, how long?"

(Except for the parts lost in the MB meltdown of "09")

Yesterday was our 33rd anniversary. My H called to tell me someone he had "told" about our separation and then said, "I could say, happy anniversary, but that would be inappropriate."

So why say it?

Are you going to go dark Plan B? You shouldn't have any contact at all. Can you find intermediary? Your WH has put you through enough mental pain - go dark - don't allow it any more.

Gg

Well, right now we are OK with only phone calls if something important needs to be discussed or transmitted: health crisis of my father-in-law, issues needing both our input concerning our daughters, etc.

I don't expect much else.

Last night when I came home, he was here gathering things for his snow camping trip this weekend.
I did not want to see him or have to speak with him, especially yesterday, on our anniversary. I parked down the road until he left - he didn't leave until around nine.

I thought about an intermediary, but it works for now if I just drop off bills with his secretary when he isn't there.

I know he will need to return for "things", but our agreement is that we cannot enter each other's home without permission. I intend to be gone if he must come by. Then I will put a deadline on him being able to do that. Get all your stuff out so you don't have to keep coming by for something for a specific activity.
Hopefully he will realize this is real and I am not just caretaking his belongings until he needs something.

Thanks for checking all my posts, gg

Hi, 77.

I see you write a lot about your husband using this time to figure out what he wants. What about you? What do you want? What kind of marriage do you want? What kind of man do you want to be in your life?

I don't know what life has in store. I learned that the hard way. BUT, I can tell you that now that I know what it is to be cared for and cherished, I won't accept less. I'm happier now, even as a widow, than I was with my first husband. I will be alone for the rest of my years before I go back to a bad relationship.

Use this time to decide what you want. What you want is just as important as what he wants.

What I want doesn't look much like my husband. If I think about that, isn't it sin to be wishing for someone/thing else?

I want to experience with my husband what you did: cared for and CHERISHED, loved. My H says he can't do that for me.

77club, I don't know what your faith teaches you on this.

I do know that we often choose spouses whom God would rather we didn't. Sometimes, the marriage just isn't a marriage at all. I know in my own case, my first husband was never on the same team as me. He didn't want a partner at all. He wanted to live his life exactly as he wanted without taking my feelings, goals, desires into account. On top of that, we were deeply incompatible. I know the Dr. H believes compatibility can be developed, but I believe this is only true when there is fundamental underlying compatibility. My first H and I very quickly found out we didn't match. It was only about 3 months into the marriage that everything started falling apart. I know I'm not rewriting history here since I actually went to my psychiatrist to talk about it. I don't believe it was a sin for me to finally divorce my first husband. He hadn't honored his vow to cherish me, and I strongly suspect he hadn't honored his vow to be faith either.

By the time I finally divorced him, I hated him. I wished him dead. I was planning to spend the rest of my life alone and content rather than live with him another day. By staying with my first H, I was becoming a bitter, negative, and bad person. I'm sure I was sinning a lot in thought word and deed. I certainly didn't love my husband as myself or even as I loved my neighbor.

Here's another thought. God created us with some hard wiring. One of the things hard wired in is to avoid pain. If something or someone is repeatedly hurting you, you start to avoid the pain. In Plan A, we attempt to bypass this wiring for a time. But it's important that we only bypass it for a limited time. God built us like that in order to help protect us against danger to our bodies, our hearts and our souls.

I just want you to remember that you hold half the cards during the separation. You can't make him come back and you can't make him demonstrate care for you. But, at the same time, he can't make you take him back as is.

So, write up what he'd need to do for you to take him back. You'll want to be fully armed when he comes back. And my guess is that after 6 months to a year, he will come back. In general, men do less well on their own that women. The question will then be if he just wants to go back to the same old, same old or if he's going to be the husband you want.

Exactly my question.
If he comes back, will he expect it to be like it was?

After 3 days apart, I already am thinking, if he comes back, will he expect to be able to do X? If he comes back, will he continue to Y? If he comes back, can I demand Z?

I know he could come back only if his feelings and attitudes have changed. But I'm wondering if I can expect behaviors to change. Can I expect him to "clean up his act"?

If I start delivering demands, he won't want to return, yet I don't want to have everything go back to the same habits.

Perhaps I am being unrealistic, and of course am hard pressed to determine how my habits should change!

I know I will have to have a plan B letter ready in that I do need to define what my requirements are from him for me to be able to be in a relationship with him.

I believe I will consult with Steve Harley on the specifics, but not just yet, I don't believe anything will be happening soon.

Yes, I know he'll do less well on his own, but I don't want that to be the reason he wants to come back: for me to take care of things for him, a comfortable familiar surroundings. I, of course, want him to come back because he wants a marriage with me and he has no romantic feelings for the OW.

77, you need behavioral change from your H as much as anything.

Now is not the time to deliver demands. HOWEVER, now is a good time to assess what exactly you want to see him change behavior wise.

First and top of the list would be dating. I'm assuming you don't have any small children, therefore date night twice or three times a week seems reasonable. Husbands and wives should date each other. If he's not willing to date you, he's not good spouse material. Dates don't need to be elaborate dinners out, but they have to be time spent together building the relationship through fun and focus. And this can easily be put in place before he's allowed back in.

Under normal circumstances, ( a couple marries because they love each other and want to be together) a list of demands and dates is called for.

My husband has wanted to not be married to me since we were dating. He has tried hard not to leave after his A, which I believe he hoped would be an exit A. He really wanted to leave all through the last 2 years.

His dream is now true in the sense that he doesn't have to interact with me, see me, talk to me or date me.

You're right, "IF he's not willing to date you, he's not good spouse material." He wasn't willing to date me then, and he doesn't want to date me now.

He's not going to accede to any demands because he never wanted to be and does not NOW want to be in a marriage with me.

He could just never bring himself to end it.

Demands and pressure won't work on someone who has no investment in the marriage and doesn't want it anyway.

All the "shoulds" and supposed tos don't apply to us.

Thanks, for your input. It just doesn't work (the usual) for us.

Explain this to me:

He moved out. We agreed to call if children or emergency issues came up. He has called to ask if he could come out and get/do things.

He wanted to come out and prune and mow the orchard and thought he should do it while I was in church on Sunday.

I asked if he wasn't going to church. He said, "you seem to want to avoid me, so I thought I could do it when you aren't at home."

I told him I wasn't "avoiding" him, but that we separated, we aren't suppose to be "seeing" each other, isn't that what you understand?"

He agreed, but why this "you want to avoid me" stuff?

I sit elsewhere in church so we don't have the uncomfortableness of staring at the back of each other's head. (We agreed to try to stay in our church as we both want to be there. That may change if it becomes awkward.)

I dropped bills off at his office to his secretary so as not to "see" him.

While coming out of my IC appt, he drove into the parking lot for his appt. I stepped behind a wall until he entered the office.

We didn't agree to see and visit with each other. We agreed not to "date" each other, so why is he feeling like I am going out of my way to "avoid" him?

Seems odd, also, from someone who has wanted out of the marriage since it began and who has had to "force" himself to stay since his A.

Hello, 77. Been a while. I've been mostly off the boards, but read every now and again. Saw your recent posts over on Recovery, and learned that you have landed here.

I am so sorry for all you've been through. You truly "fought the good fight." It was never possible for you to do it alone...you know it, and God knows it. He will smile on you. (((77)))

I am encouraged to see that you have taken a step to get away from this hurtful, damaged man. You can't fix him, you know that. What did it for me (thinking you SHOULD separate yourself from him for your own protection) was your relating the story of how he said he LAUGHED during your difficult delivery because he enjoyed seeing you in pain. That is WAY beyond wayward...it is sadistic. He may or may not ever work through his issues, but it is imperative that YOU be protected from them. So, kudos for doing what was long overdue.

Interesting that now that you have made this move, and seem ready to move on, he is making excuses to see you. He is finding out that, while he can't live with you, he doesn't know how to live WITHOUT you. It's called "enmeshment, and it isn't healthy, as you've learned. That's the reason he has stayed all these years. Until he finds himself,and faces what he finds, nothing could change.

You marriage may or may not be over, but I do hope you will go completely dark during this separation so he has the best chance of doing that work. Till he does, he's not worth having.

You remain in my prayers.

Rightthere, I have missed you and wondered if one doesn't need or want to frequent these boards when things are going well in recovery. I'm glad if that is the case for you.

I struggle daily, hourly. Despite all the emotions I've been through and think I have mastered, new ones and returning ones crop up every time a new layer of the onion is peeled back.

Now I am dealing with the new layer of separation. I'm not missing him, per se, but do get lonely. I grieve the loss of a marriage, of the wasted years of my life, that I am too old to start over financially, careerwise, healthwise, relationally. I grieve that my kids have to arrange to spend time with their parents separately.

I know that his efforts at doing "things" is more out of guilt and trying to NOW do right by me than because of feelings of love or care for me.

All of the wonderful feelings of rejection slam into me again. The nagging feeling that he was embarrassed to be with me around his high school friends at reunions, etc. is now proven true. He was resentful that I was there, with him and he had to be my husband around them.

If he is going through any feelings, I don't believe it is not that he can't live without me. I believe he is more relieved than anything, but suffers guilt.

Sunday while meditating I suddenly accepted that I am not the one responsible for this dysfunctional marriage. Yes, I did alot through the years harmful to this marriage in my frustration. I busted, AO, DJ, etc. I now know why - I was married to a man who only was married to me on paper. He never intended or wanted to become one with me.

But, He began the lie, he perpetuated the lie.

The lie or having feelings for me, which he never had.

He could have ended it after the infatuation passed. He could have ended it anytime in 6 1/2 years of dating. He could have ended it after the miscarriage. He could have been truthful 39 years ago, 25 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago. He started the lie and he is responsible for the mess he brought this family to because of his avoidance of conflict and truth.

I believe we are 50 - 50 in our responsibility for the condition of our behaviors within the marriage. But he is 100% responsible for stringing along a relationship when he didn't want it, ever, and still doesn't.

I am not accepting that I am responsible for his unhappiness, he is.

Hi 77,
It's been a long time but have mostly caught up on your new thread here.

I think that Rightherewaiting is right on. Ditto everything she said. Please read her post again and do the dark separation.
I personally think you should go right to divorce.

You have some great insight in your last post. Keep reading it to yourself to strengthen your resolve to study MB and follow a dark Plan B / Plan D.

Your last sentence is wonderful. Write it down and read it every morning. It could be the cornerstone for building your new life.

Best of luck.

thanks, Pinata. I am rereading that last sentence over and over in my head at your suggestion.

Right there --"enmeshment" -- funny word. The word the OW used in a letter to our pastors to explain what she learned about herself in counseling with a sex therapist which she sought AFTER she heard from me that I knew about my H's A with her.

Her "enmeshment" always included sex as a result of her childhood sexual molestation. She was VERY promiscuous before becoming a Christian and slipped while a Christian.

My husband was a sitting duck. But, he intentionally set himself up as the target!

I have always had to be independent because I had to take over so much and make so much happen for our family due to my H's passivity and desire to NOT have a life with me (which then spilled over to our children, also).

I don't consider myself more "enmeshed" than a wife/mother would be after 33 years of marriage. More like "invested".

I don't consider myself co-dependent or an enabler, other words thrown around this situation.

I don't like to take charge and do what others should, I don't play the martyr well, but people have thrown these words at me.

I shall explore these with my therapist to learn if I am dealing with the typical tearing apart issues of a failed marriage, or if I am being co-dependent, enabling, or enmeshed.

Of course, I want health in the Lord.

Thanks for your continuing encouragement.

So now I am stepping to the muckiness of separation.

1. Comcast called to say we are 2 mos behind on payment. We have never missed payment before.

My husband has been paying bills for over a year now after I gave the responsibility to him after hearing his complaints about "spending too much."

He had fits and starts getting things in on time, entering into the register properly, adding deposits correctly, etc. Now he has the routine down, but doesn't have a regular time to attend to the bills.

The problem is, this bill is the only one in MY name. Is this wrecking my chances for a decent credit rating or credit card application if I have to go out on my own?

I called my H and he says as far as he knows, he is current with them. I gave him the number to call.

2. Also, our agreement includes him mailing me a check on the first of each month.

He called yesterday, the 5th to say he has my check. He could get cash for me if I'd like and bring it by if I was needing cash. (I had family arriving today from out of state and he probably thought I might be needing cash)

I left the message that our agreement stated that he would MAIL a check, so I was just waiting for it to come in the mail.

Today he called again, he had gotten my message, yes he understands to mail the check. He offered again to bring it by when he and a daughter went riding. Now it's almost a week past so I told him to send it home the daughter visiting him today.

He sent both the check and the same amount in cash.

Is this just a rough start up, ironing out the wrinkles, or his typical way of not always getting it right, inattention, or what?

Didn't mean to trigger you with that word...wasn't aware the OW used it. It wasn't an accusation, though, believe me. I've been there, done that too. Hard to break out of. Try, if you can, to see the concept more objectively.

The very fact that you HAD to be independent in the face of his passivity, is in itself part of the "enmeshment" dynamic. You simply reacted to him, and he to you...a normal marital pattern, one that gets us all stuck.

"Invested," "enmeshed"--two sides of the same coin. I'm glad you have a therapist to sort this out with.

Your H is equally caught up in this dynamic. His games with the money is an attempt to keep it going. Resist it. Getting yourself untangled from his stuff is the work that will set you free, regardless of what happens to your marriage. Did I mention how good it is that you're working this through with a professional?

You're working through to peace. And health in the Lord. You go, girl. I know God's pulling for you too.

ETA: You're right that reaching a certain point of healing coincides with less time spent on these boards. I ain't 100% yet, and may never be, but since I started working more on ME than on what FWH should be doing, things have improved markedly. Nearly 4 years past D-day, I am finally healthy in the Lord again...and the marriage is much better too.

Thanks, rightthere.

I'm not triggered by the word "enmeshment". Just found it interesting that both the OW and I have/are dealing with that dynamic with the same man!

My IC says, yes, all of the above: codependent, enabler, enmeshment is what I am/did to keep the marriage going, as you pointed out.

Oh, dear, more homework to learn all about new dysfunctional behaviors and how to get free from them.

A passing thought: since my husband and I are only talking when needed about children or scheduling coming by to do or get things or my requests to spend on household care issues: plumber, mulch, painter, well drilling, our only conversations are me saying things need to be done and asking for money to be spent on them!

We don't "visit". I don't ask how he's doing, what he's doing, how he feels or anything except business at hand.

Consequently, our interactions leave me feeling like he only hears from me when I need something, and it appears negative. Kind of like when we lived together!

Our arrangement does not allow me to "go dark".

Just an observation.

Hey 77, If it's any comfort to you, MOST of us are dealing with enmeshment and a lot of those other things! It's a "normal" attribute of marriage and families, part of the human condition.

Perverse, isn't it?

Not sure what all those negative interactions with H will produce in the end, but it's not Plan B if you're still talking to each other. The no-contact imperative in Plan B is designed to protect you from having to deal with him and his stuff, and to let him see what life without being able to hook into you will be like.

I hope you are better with this arrangement than what you had before, and that you will come to a resolution soon. Limbo is very draining... Hugs on you.

All I can add is that I think there needs to be 100 percent boundaries and you need to decide what you want.

WH of yours imho, has lost the power to negotiate since he was in an ema. I'd personally tell him he has 1 day to come get all his stuff and have him out of the home.

He needs to see what it's like to really be divorced and alone.

I, too can say that my being single for five years as a single mom was way better than being married to my horrid and unrepentant xh.

I'm getting remarried this summer and can say that we have our priorities 100 percent together, and that this is nothing like it was. You have no idea what lies ahead for you, but have faith. I took a step out on faith and found myself again..and it was without my xws.

We're not really in plan B. We haven't done anything legal. He pays bills, Major expenses for home and kids have to be discussed and POJA.

I am using this time to spend lots of energy on learning about myself and dynamics of how that impacted my marriage and where to go from here---for me.

I hope he is doing the same.

We will revisit our situation in May.

I don't expect him to come home.

I do not want him home or in a relationship with me without certain requirements (boundaries) in place.

Not wanting to pick up where we left off, have the same kind of marriage relationship.

As I spend more time away from our relationship, I see how much I had to settle for less than what a marriage should be.

I still struggle with the idea of remarriage because of my spiritual beliefs. That could change as my perspective changes and God gives me more understanding.

I feel like I have to come out of my own "fog", so to speak. The fog of living under emotional abuse in the sense of emotional connection being withheld from me for my entire marriage.

I also, peachy, am taking the step to find myself. After a marriage of 33 years, that is taking a bit of digging.

77, so much of what you said in that post sounds healthy. No longer willing to settle for the status quo (which was harmful to you all along), and exploring YOU!
For so long, your H's bad behavior consumed your focus--now it's time for you to discover, unencumbered, what makes 77 tick. What she wants. Who she IS.

Unnerving. I remember my own disorientation after D-Day, wondering how I could ever start again (I was 58 at the time, and had been married for 37 years.) Although my FWH and I have reconciled, the shock waves of that time have forced me to do the very same work you are undertaking.

My point is, whether you reconcile or not, you'll be facing this life work.

As for your personal beliefs about remarriage...I really hear you. I believed exactly the same, which only heightened my anxiety about the future. I admire your courage in being willing to face that, and letting God lead you where He will..

In being apart, I don't find myself going through withdrawal of "him".
I am sad that it feels so meaningless to live alone.

I am sad that our relationship was so unremarkable that, although I think about him and our marriage constantly, I am not devastated without him.

If I had my own earning power and was able to support my lifestyle, I probably wouldn't have any connection to him other than the children.

It is sad to think all those years and all my efforts did nothing to bring him anywhere near enjoying me, wanting me.

It is sad to think I will never have a husband's arms around me, or to kiss me with desire --- sadder yet, that I never had that in 33 years.

Sure, I can go on and find out all the great things 77 can do -- but I know that ultimately, it was meant to be done together with my spouse.

I don't want my belief in remarriage to change because I meet another man and my desire for all I never experienced with my husband overrides my beliefs in order for me to obtain "happiness".

In other words, I don't want my belief system to change at the whim of my "feelings."

But, I still do so desire to have a relationship with a man like I always envisioned marriage to be, like I see displayed around me in church by mature couples walking in a ministry together and fully complimenting and supporting each other.

It still seems so strange to have MB telling you to spend QT together, meet needs, etc., then switch to telling me to "go on in your own life" without divorcing. Stay in a marriage, but live separate lives -- the same thing that got us to an A.

It's only strange if you forget that MB advises ONE partner to carry the full load till the other gets on board, BUT that he/she cannot suffer that position indefinitely. MB acknowledges that it ultimately takes BOTH partners to put it back together. And when one absolutely refuses, the advice is to walk away, knowing you gave it your all. You have given it your all, for a very, very long time, and still your H figuratively spits in your face.

I don't think God would ask you--or anyone--to continue that till you die, do you?

And if you happen to be Catholic, I would think that your circumstances would merit an annulment--even after all those years together--because your H sounds incapable of undertaking the commitment of marriage. He doesn't get it, never has... I think you have plenty of proof of that.

Just a thought. I wish you healing...and peace, 77.

Yes, I see. My husband would probably say, I need time. I WAS feeling positive about our prayer time together. (Then he also said that you can have a good prayer relationship with someone you have never even met. It doesn't mean romantic feelings of love are there.)

Not Catholic. Had a friend who divorced his wife and wanted to marry a Catholic. They wanted us to fill out the paperwork for annulment, to testify that the marriage was not a marriage, etc. We could not. We could not say that their marriage of 25 years was a "mistake" and therefore their two children were "mistakes."

It will be interesting to see what he tells me voluntarily when our 3 mos. trial separation period ends. If he thinks about it at all.

Rightthere,

Could you share with me what kind of "work" you did for yourself after DDay ? How did you become stronger?
Thanks

Today my H called.

He's going camping with friends, traveling to spend the night with another and taking a week off to travel out of state, visit, attend a concert and then show up at our daughter
s college graduation in the next month.

I'm getting a bid on screen doors, putting a room back together after painting, trying to deal with murky well water, dig filled in ditches for the rain, looking at all the painting and weatherstripping repair needed on the house, etc.

He lives in a travel trailer rent free on a friend's ranch. The friend takes care of the horses so he can take off.

I'm also in IC, Bible study, accountability with an older Christian woman, reading for self improvement, attending church regularly and trying to stay on even keel emotionally.

Why is separation putting even more work on me and he gets to play?

Is he "working" on himself? Is he doing all the self introspection I am? He is using this time as he said he needed, to learn about himself?

Seems like he is getting a deal - no work, responsibilities and gets to have fun with friends - all of whom have been divorced one or two times.

Definitely not hanging around "marriage friendly" people.

I'm just feeling bumbed.

I think I'll see if the daughters and I can go somewhere over night while they are here for Easter Break!

That sounds like a question that should be easy to answer, but it's not. Hard to say which of the things I did helped the most, because I did them all concurrently.

I read everything I could find on recovering from infidelity (including these boards); let a couple of people who were further down the recovery challenge my thinking (that was HUGE); and I prayed (a LOT). When things were really bad, I asked my doctor for anti-anxiety meds (he took one look at me and prescribed an anti-depressant too)

I also poured out my thoughts regularly in a journal. I found that very therapeutic.

I learned a bit about boundaries--still working on that, but one clear one I have is that I will not suffer another affair. And I think I stated it with enough conviction that my H knows I mean it. And I do. Whioe something else may rear up and bit me, I don't believe it will be that again.

Oh yeah. I think the passage of TIME was a big healer, too, but without those other things probably wouldn't have made much difference.

I say all this, knowing a big difference between our situations is that my H became a FWH. I can't tell you what would have helped me most if he'd not ultimately bought into fixing us.

I do hope someone who has recovered themselves without their partner involved will chime in here.

Thanks, right there.

Boundaries - of course no other affairs, but if my H decides he does want to come back and work on our marriage (very doubtful to me since he has said he NEVER wanted it and seems to be enjoying the "freedom" he has always wanted), what kind of boundaries or requirements should I be considering to even allow that to happen?

What kind of boundaries did you establish?

I believe in an earlier post you said you focused on yourself and the life you wanted to develop and your husband got "interested" and decided he wanted in on your new life, too.

I'm not planning on that happening, but aside of recovery efforts from the A for you personally, what was it you did to enhance your own life after suffering your husband's adultery?

I came late to the boundary game. Didn't understand the concept, at least, not beyond telling my H a few weeks after we did the MB weekend that I "only have one of these in me. Another affair and I will not be showing up to 'stand for the marriage' again. No questions, no discussion. I'll be d o n e."

He didn't answer, but I didn't care. I was SURE. I promised myself I would not allow myself to be treated that shabbily, ever again. Years ago, I heard someone say "When you speak with conviction, people get it." I think he got it.

When he decided to give up OW and do the MB program, I developed another boundary, based on an acute and sudden sensitivity to openness and honesty. I let him know that the lack of it would NOT work for me, or for us. He got honest. We both struggle with it sometimes, not wanting to rock the boat too much, but we persevere.

I don't remember posting anything about my H wanting to get in on my "new life." Sure that was me? I did try to do new things while he was off being wayward ...joined a gym, changed my hair, changed my clothes, reconnected with girlfriends I hadn't seen in years. But I WASN'T having a great time. I was putting one foot in front of the other, praying all the while. Kept me going till he pulled his head out of that dark orifice. Had he not, I would've kept doing those things while I figured out what to do beyond that. Actually considered moving to the other end of the country where my DD, SIL and their kids live. Knew I needed to be near loved ones...

Does any of this help?

Right there - everything helps you share with me.

I guess I have done similar.

I told him I would not tolerate being treated like this - I deserve better (hence his "my job is to make it possible for SOMEONE to love you" comment).

Once I even think I told him he didn't deserve me.

None of those comments, however, carry much weight with someone not wanting to be with you. It doesn't rock their boat.

I guess until we revisit each other in May, I won't know if our separation has confirmed for him his desire to be out of our marriage or desire to work on it.

If he honestly decides he wants to work on a marriage with me, it will have to be because of me -- not fear of "failing", hurting the girls,or desire to avoid the financial work of splitting.

If he decides that - I believe I will have to talk with Steve Harley about boundaries and expectations.

My IC is afraid for me that my H will think, "OK, we did the separation, now let's just go back to the way it was."

It can never be the same again. Despite what he thought was work while under MB counseling with Steve Harley, this will require real work on his part or I'm not doing it again.

Meanwhile, I, like you, changed my hair (he doesn't like), lost weight, changed clothing style, put myself under mentoring by a mature Christian woman, took a class, The Art of Hearing God, am doing a Bible study on Song of Solomon with a pastor's wife, connecting with women I met at Every Heart Restored conference, doing home improvements needed for anywhere from months to years without having to suggest, remind, coax, etc. to get them done.

I suppose I would continue to do so regardless of what he decides about our marriage.

I just finished reading, Total Forgiveness by RT Kendall, (spiritual) am ready to start reading How to Stop the Pain, (spiritual) recommended by my IC and also have ready to read Caught Between a Dream and a Job: how to leave the 9-to-5 behind and step into the life you've always wanted by Delatorro McNeal ( job, career, which I have to begin to address) and am considering getting, Staging Your Comeback by Chris Hopkins to deal with the physical appearance overhaul of the "older" woman.

All of this is fulltime work for me in addition to the regular home maintenance and ranch work .

Today my daughter and I moved wood, cleaned ditches, moved gravel to fill holes and create driveway into a pasture. She handles the tractor and I do the hand work. Without her I would get much less done. She is only home for a week and must study and make appts. also.

Hard part for me being alone is the need for help to get these things done. Need the strength of a man for some jobs and projects to get done. So I have to hire help and use funds I would like to save in case I have to live on them myself.

And loneliness. It feels like other than doing chores, my life doesn't amount to much right now. I know I could do other things to "distract" myself from my marriage issues, but I almost feel like that is cheating. I need to address my issues to really get anywhere, not just try to cover them over while being busy elsewhere.

Good for you, 77! For all the loneliness you're feeling, I hear strength in this post. I also see some boundaries regarding what you will and will not accept from your H. Bravo!

Sounds like you are doing lots to pull yourself up by your bootstraps--just keep doin' it, one day at a time. It WILL get better.

Thanks, Rightthere, but it has been a hard Easter break with my girls home.

I believe I am experiencing a kind of divorce without a custody agreement.

Both girls are adults, so they can do what they want, but coming home for a college break allowed us to plan some activities together.

Their father invited them to attend a family dinner his sister put on. That's fine and he told me about it ahead of time. I was not there, of course.

But then the challenges started. I plan ahead, he sits down and then starts to think and realizes things, calls and wants to do something now.

As the vacation drew to an end, I waited to see if he was realizing that they were leaving, he had not seen the youngest (very social with friends) much.

Easter plans were church for my youngest and I, family gathering for my H and the oldest daughter. Then the daughter would pick up my senior Dad and bring him home for dinner with the girls and I in the early afternoon.

8:30 am H calls youngest, "I need to see you to say goodbye. Call me after church and we'll decide what to do together." Now she's gone and we're ready for dinner.

Irks me that I plan and he continues to live in "crisis mode" and even though we are not together, still impacts my life and plans.

When H and I next spoke, I told him it would be helpful if these things could be planned ahead. He said, "I told her to call, and then we'd plan."!!! He doesn't get it, he thinks that WAS planning ahead, but he's not entertaining or keeping to a social schedule.

In our marriage, I would be the one bringing all these necessary arrangements with others to his attention to be discussed and settled. But then I was labeled "controlling" and told that he could NEVER please me.

Now, he has told my daughter that he is flying to LA and taking her to Disneyland next Sunday because they "didn't get enough time together." !!!

This is hard because he never wanted to plan things for our family like this because he said he "never wanted to do anything with you."

Now I get to see him doing impractical outings with his daughter.

And this after him telling me not to spend too much money because we have to pay taxes on the sale of a business this year.

He's taking a week off the end of April to visit friends and attend a concert- all came up quickly on a whim. Now to LA, flight, car, food, tickets on a whim to see the daughter who was here for a week until yesterday.

I'm sure he doesn't see it like I do. I realized, I have to run big expenses for maintenance by him, but he doesn't have to run anything by me -- he just does it!

Kind of feeling hostage-like here.

Also, my girls blasted me yesterday.

It was time to take one to the airport 1 1/2 hrs. away, and the other to start driving to school 4 hours away.

I was feeling like having prayer with them, and thinking how they didn't have the history of family prayer in their background because their father never initiated it (once again, because he didn't want to do things with me.). This made me reflect on the many things they missed out on because of his passivity.

When I brought it up, they told me they did not want to hear it related to their father as the cause. I thought I was doing pretty well, but they feel alot of negativity from me for their dad.

The oldest doesn't want to hear what he's told me in the way of truth, or what the counselors have told me. Says it makes her mad at him, confrontational and want to get away from both of us.

The younger says she still has the same relationship with her dad, but I should "empower" myself and move on.
"If he f@#$#$ you, you should F@#$$ him!" Told her I didn't believe in repaying evil for evil.

I told them that I felt like I had to live in a pretend world if they didn't know the truth about their parents and that I was having a hard time not feeling rejected hourly by that truth and the deception of 40 years.

Too much information. I knew from the get go NOT to make my children my counselors (oddly enough, I learned that from the OW when she lived with us and told me how her mother depended on her for support during her father's alcoholism and how it messed her up).

I did not realize that they were still getting what they did not want and angry that I put them in that spot.

I feel like they are wanting to live in the fantasy now!

But, the oldest said,"Dad is really screwed up right now." So she knows enough.

They both told me they were sorry that this happened to me, sorry it hurts, they love me and want me to take classes, do things, be the strong one even if their Dad can't make a decision.

But, I felt that I had failed them in letting it get to this place.

It is hard to be told by friends, family, counselors - stand for your marriage - a marriage never wanted by my husband and one which he still can't decide if he wants to "commit" to or not yet and also be told - go on with your life, do what you want, need to for YOU.

On his money and with his permission.

Can I not get past the hurt, betrayal and feelings of waste because HE can't decide to do anything one way or the other?

His own sister came to visit me and said, "He will just keep doing what he is doing. He can continue things for a long time. He just keeps keeping on." They admire that in him, but it just postpones him having to actually decide anything!

She thought we should be able to compromise. The family misses me, it seems so weird not to have me around.

I finally gave her TMI and she said, "I didn't know you were dealing with all that!"

So, I continue the roller coaster of feelings.

Thanks for continuing to stay with me.

You know I'm with you, 77. I just typed out a lengthy response to you, and POOF! Disappeared into cyberspace.

Maybe they weren't the right words... Maybe God will give me better ones in the morning.

Hope you can get a good night's sleep. Tomorrow morning, read what you wrote in that last post, and see what you think...what you'd tell someone else if they wrote it.

Peace, 77.

RHW

Hey 77! How you doin'?

I just don't know.
Trying to get things ready for daughter's college graduation Sat. Will travel and stay several days to pack her up and move her home.
Dealing with home maintenance issues before the girls come home.
Trying to raise money to help oldest get overseas to help set up a home for girls rescued from sex trafficking this summer.
Seems like work, work, work.
My H is taking the week off, visiting friends, concert and will show up at daughter's graduation.
When I asked him about a big project he let waiting finishing ( re-pour sidewalk), he said he "forgot" about it.
Just seems so unfair that he has nothing to take care of and I am doing nothing but "taking care of".

Before my girls left for college after spring break. They told me they didn't want to hear about the failings of their dad.
I thought I was doing pretty well NOT venting to them, but guess not.
One expects us to get back together after the trial separation and is discouraged that both her parents don't sound like that will happen.

The other tells me to get "empowered" and all other such feminist and New Age terminology. She told me, "he @#$#@ you, so you @##$% him!" Told her I didn't believe in repaying evil with evil.

It seems like I have the two camps encouraging me.

One is "get on with YOUR life, you can't control what he does, but you can control what you do" and the "we're praying for you and believing God will heal your marriage, hang in there, do what God tells you".

People telling both of us, "If it was never there, oh well, move on and find happiness with someone else."

And people telling me, what he has told you is not true, he did/does love you.

I have people counseling me that divorce is biblically OK, remarriage justified, etc.

I ride the rollercoaster every day.

I can't get over the fact that my husband has never cared for me and the "loves" of his life have been illicit relationships.

I can't get over the rejection that causes me to feel distaste for my body because it was rejected for anyone else, even when I was young, fit, and stacked.

I can't get over how the OW, messed up, dysfunctional, plain and with huge hips and thigs carried more attraction for my husband than me.

I can't get over feeling like the best years of my life were ripped off.

He doesn't have a major identity change to deal with.
He is still seen as a professional in a specific industry.
He didn't have his world turn upside down.
He didn't lose friends or family over his A
His life still operates the same every day.
He still has his income and status, his staff support on the job.
He has free time he never had before and is playing.

I however, am no longer a family supported by my husband.
I have lost my job as wife.
My identity is gone and was a lie the whole marriage - he never allowed me to be his wife.
I have limited income to cover my expenses, whereas he can do what he pleases without thinking about the money it involves.
I walk embarrassed around my friends and family - second class, damaged goods, rejected goods. He is out playing with his friends.

Our agreement of separation will be up May 17.

I don't know if he will even remember and want to get together to "discuss" what comes next.

Sorry to be a gloomy gus - but I am!

Thanks, rightthere, for checking up on me.

I have to stay away from these sites sometimes, it just makes me more depressed.

Sorry to hear about your painful situation. YOu mentioned your husband has childhood issues. Go to **edit** it sounds to me like you may be able to get some answers there. Good luck.

Hi 77.

You're right--it isn't fair. Most of what shows up on this menu isn't fair at all, and you got a supersized meal. It's really damaging that you KNOW what he's doing day to day. AND that you are giving him full power to come back, knowing that if he does, it will be--as always--on his hurtful terms.

I really get that at our age, rebuilding a life from scratch feels impossible. I do. Facing that at 58, I had NO idea how to do it. I wanted to believe my H wasn't the cold-hearted monster he appeared to be. It took a couple of years of pure hell, but he came around. From all you've said of your H, it just doesn't seem he wants to be "redeemed." And that makes all the difference.

He continues to hurt you, to show no regard for anything but himself. What makes you think if he deigns to "come back" on May 17th that your life with him would be any different? Has he shown ANY signs of caring? Of remorse?

If not, I'd say your only hope is a solid, dark Plan B. Have nothing to do with him and spare yourself the additional pain of hearing about all the "fun" he's having. It only adds to your misery and keeps you chained.

But most of all, it keeps you believing that you are defective and unworthy. NOT TRUE! It is his behavior and attitudes that are defective and unworthy. Do NOT let the actions of a sadistic, selfish, broken man define you. Pray for him, but do not let him destroy your soul.

And for God's sake, do not let him back into your home in his present state (which may indeed be his permanent state).

You, YOU 77, are a wonderful creation of God. Good, and beautiful, precious and worthy. Trust HIM to lead you to a new life, to TRUTH, not an acceptance of the lies your H has made of your life.

That is what I pray for you.

((((77))))

RHW

Yes, it is hard to know what he's doing.

Last night I was checking a friend on Facebook. She was jubilating that she had a new garden box and wondered what to plant.

As I was getting ready to make suggestions, I noticed pictures and more comments by her celebrating how her "Papa" made it for her, how wonderful he is because he loves her, etc.

That "papa" turned out to be my husband.

She and her husband have been our friends for years. They are the ones who encouraged us to attend the weeklong marriage seminar that changed their marriage. They want to see our marriage restored,

BUT - why does she call him her papa- trigger - that's what he started out as for the OW.

Will he always be doing "rescue" work and good deeds for other, younger women? Is that the only way he can feel good about himself because I am so toxic for him?

Gosh, I hate how IT always flies up in my face, especially when I am feeling "OK" for a bit.

As for going completely dark, not possible as he still pays the bills and wants things kept as normal as possible because nothing has been decided.

Plus, I have two adult children who do mention him and their doings with him occasionally .

As far as "coming back", I actually worked with my counselor on a list of questions to ask him that will determine what he has decided or wants to do.

No way would he come back and live without a gradual courting, if you will. NOT that I expect him to want to "court" or "woo" me. But if he were interested in attempting a relationship with me , it would be gradual and in public for awhile. We would not be living together while this took place. Enough fakery. He would have to WANT to live with me for no other reason that to be with me ( not to save face, keep the family together, spare the kids, etc.)

I don't expect him to be able to say anything definite in May, just not his modus operandi . Usually it's, I can't decide, need more time, haven't gotten to "it" yet, etc.

If anything, he will decide he likes freedom from me and the independent behavior of doing what he wants when he wants.

It is hard not to feel so little about myself since anyone else is more attractive to him - even a dysfunctional, melancholy, huge hipped, sexually messed up girl!

It is hard not to feel like an old dishrag when younger women are where my husband looks for his kicks.

My counselor is working to lead me into TRUTH about who I am, but, I feel, gets discouraged with me because I can't bounce back from the feelings he has created in me with his life and actions that my whole life with him has been a lie, that I am completely undesirable and a second class citizen. I feel like he and OW have this laughing secret about how pathetic I am.

And that he is only able to engage young fit women who can "play" with him. Sometimes I think his obsession with appearing fit and strong is a boyish immature desire to try to keep his youth. He wants to prove he is just as strong, fit and has the stamina of men half his age. I guess if you are trying to catch the attention of a younger woman, that would be a motivation.

I am trying and dealing with myself and my messed up image all day, everyday.j

I feel people will get tired and worn out with my state- enough, already! - but those things can't change overnight - after a 33 year marriage.

This is harder than a death - because he's still alive, therefore, still a relationship that must be addressed.

Thanks for your encouragement, I get more people telling me all the good things you say, but why do all those encouragements not matter if they're not from the one important person in my life - my husband?

I wish someone had a fairydust wand to zap me with and change my brain!

Myname11, I will check your website, thanks. But, he has to want to change or at least investigate things himself.

77, I have always wondered what this meant, in your signature:


"OW - "daughter" added to family 1/05 for "Fathering healing" - 25 years younger"

I was trying to figure out what fathering healing entailed. And now, reading this in your post, I wonder even more:

A couple of things could be going on with him. He could have the Knight in Shining Armor syndrome, where he feels power and satisfaction in rescuing someone. And the aggravating thing about living with the Knight is that he can only get that satisfaction when helping others; doing good and noble deeds for his family is just sort of expected, and he doesn't get the applause and admiration that he gets from outside the family.

Another thought is that he may orient as a Daddy; in the BDSM world, this is someone who gets pleasure being in the father or benefactor role to an adult who holds the role as dependent and helpless daughter. A lot of these Daddy/daughter lifestyles (not to be confused with incest, which is a whole different kettle of fish) don't involve sex, they just cater to the needs of the ones involved. He would probably be flabbergasted to have his feelings and actions likened to a BDSM lifestyle, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.

In either situation, it is usually to the detriment of his real family when his attention and concern are focused on others.

I hope you won't find my questions offensive, I was just wondering if any of this seems likely to you.

Ellen, I believe you are correct. Knight in Shining Armour.

My husband has feels he cannot please me and doesn't get the affirmation he needs. Mostly this is because of his passive aggressive behavior towards me ( "I'll do it", then "I forgot", or nothing ever happens), so of course he does not get alot of praise from me for messing up, forgetting, etc.

He started with "rescuing" his secretary after her suicide attempt (father wanted her to marry her cousin and live in the family compound.) He gave her away at her wedding instead of her real father.

Moved on to interest in other women under wraps (which I learned about after DDay.)

The ultimate was bringing the OW into our home as a "daughter" wanting to help her, but having attraction towards her and believing he could keep it under control.

He couldn't.

He has worked harder to regain the trust of the other "daughters" in our life (two are married) after his A was exposed than he has cared about his marriage.

Yes, it seems he feels good helping/rescuing other needy women -- anyone outside of his family.

We have an adopted daughter with rejection issues about her birth father who really needed affirmation, love and interaction. My husband abandoned her, her sister and myself in order to "help" this young woman he brought into our home.

He felt like it would be fun having her here and a vacation from having to be married to me.

It was.

Until it blew up in his face.

But, seems he continues in the same pattern.

These are the things I would like to see him discover and address in therapy. But, who knows what he is doing right now.

Hands off.

Just hard to continue to see it, even when I am not looking.

I believe you are right. I will read up on BDSM.

Thanks, 77

Yes, he will always be doing "rescue work" with dumsels in distress, but NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE TOXIC. I don't know anything about what Ellen suggested, but if I had to guess what's toxic, I'd say it's his narcissism that's stripping YOU of your self esteem, happiness and health. Ask your IC how narcissists operate, and what happens to the people who love them.

This absolutely blows me away: your going dark is "not possible as he still pays the bills and wants things kept as normal as possible because nothing has been decided."

What? He wants things as "normal as possible?" For WHOM????? This "normalcy" serves him, but is destroying you. Even as he is romancing yet another woman!

And you think you have no say in the matter. Any judge in the world would disagree. Why have you not seen a lawyer? Even a legal separation would require that he continue to pay the bills.

You could indeed go dark, and simply ask your daughters not to convey information about what Dad is doing--tell them it is your attempt to protect yourself for now. They'd probably be relieved to get out of the middle.

I absolutely agree that what you're living is worse than death, because he's still alive--AND calling ALL the shots. And you are not addressing it in any way except to go along with whatever he wants. Why?

What will it take, I wonder, for you to handle YOUR side differently and break this stranglehold? Might be a good idea to Ask your IC that.

It is so painful to watch you permit this eternal suffering. It really breaks my heart.

Been moving daughters home from college.

Saw the friend put her arms around my H's waist and hug.
Heard him ask if the 20 something daughter was going running with him.

All the same behavior as before. I'm sure neither he nor them recognizes the lack of boundaries and feels nothing is untoward -- but why not?

Awash in boxes, piles and rock music and feeling discombobulated.

When yesterday my 19 year old-just-completed- freshman-year-of-college daughter told me she had gone with some friends to a party to drink with guys she didn't know.

Told them she was not interested in sex as she was a virgin.
One guy plied her with drink until no resistance, then he raped her.

She was afraid to tell us as we might pull her from school.

Her sister found out 3 days later (the "friends" she was with didn't want her to talk to people so they wouldn't get in trouble for drinking (underage and forbidden at her University) and pushed her to talk to her RA, go to the clinic and campus police.

My victim daughter did the typical, didn't want the rape test kit or city police report because she wanted it to be "over" so the jerk (whose last name she doesn't even know) can continue to prey on virgins.

I'm a pissed and grieving mom.

Her dad doesn't know yet.

He told me last week we need to get together to decide what to do next (our 3 month trial separation expires on Mon.)

So now I get to face the "talk" and have to decide if it gets derailed to discuss our daughter's situation or wait until I know better how to handle it with my H.

I would like to speak with my therapist and possibly my daughter's therapist before I have to tell my H.

Somehow I get the picture in my mind of him just sitting there without comment, as usual.

What would have to happen for him to show any concern over anything with his family - ever?

Yes, I know I am being negative. When is it OK to be justified?

Ugh. How awful. For DD, and for you. I am so sorry. I do hope her therapist can help her work through this. She will need your love and support so much in the months ahead.

Have you (or she) told your H about yet? How did he react? I'm sure this complicated the talk about whether to stay with the marriage or give it up. I'm guessing that if this news broke, you have delayed the decision about the marriage and focused on your DD. That might be for the best--how many big nightmares can anyone deal with at once?

How are things going at the moment?

To avoid some harsh decision in married life, every one should try out couple Counseling if your are moving towards getting separate.

And this link applies to this poster's situation HOW?

Took my daughters away for a week. Everything was just too much.

Hesitant to start posting. Alot to describe.

I got blasted alot on another site when I freely expressed my frustration about my daughter's CHOICES which put her in the position for the possibility of rape.

Had a meeting with H on May 17 to discuss our next step with the marriage, but knew I would have to tell him about the rape, which would put the marriage on the back burner.

Marriage: he admitted that he did not know he had been committing adultery all through our marriage with his fantasies of other women during sex.

I was surprised. After going to Every Man's Battle, counseling with Steve Harley and the pastor, he didn't before now know that?

He told me he DID know the entire time he was committing adultery with the OW, this despite telling me he was "fathering" and felt he could keep some "conflicted" feelings under control earlier.

He said I had said not to stay married just for the sake of the kids, therefore the same argument should apply to not staying married for the sake of the Lord.

The only reason to stay married was if he "cherished" me which he never has.

(So what was his reason for staying married during the 33 years of "not cherishing" me before the A?)

BUT, he could not say out loud that we should get a divorce. I kept trying different ways to get a decision out of him:

What do you want to do?
I don't know.

Do you want to write a new separation agreement?
I don't know.

Do you want to make a decision?
I don't know.

Finally, another approach:

How or where do you see yourself one year from now?
Adjusted to single life.

Nothing happened so I moved on to the rape.

No facial or body expressions.
He said, "I'm sorry. What should I do? Would she talk to me?"

Called the next morning with "We need to decide how to parent over the rape." and wanted to meet with me right then.

Seems this moved him out of passivity.

So now we have 2 issues on the plate about the rape:

1. the rape itself and our daughter's and family's recovery.

H wants her to pursue charging the rapist so she doesn't become a people pleaser like him and make poor choices to negatively affect her life like he did. (implied: stayed in relationship with me, who he didn't want and who has made his life miserable.)

2. the broken agreement and trust we set up in order to finance her college education: grades, law abiding, managing her money, church attendance, respect for parents.

She has broken all of them except grades and tried to keep the violations hidden.

Now we have to discuss what we are willing or unwilling to do for her next year given the broken trust.

None of this has to do with the rape. The trust/agreement was broken before the rape. The rape just brought it all to light.

But, we have been counseled to not address the rape and the violations together. They must be kept separate, preferably discussed on different days. Survivors will believe they are being "punished" for the rape when anything is put in place that they don't like.

We have to reduce her access to $$ and let her carry more of the load to learn to budget the "too generous" gift from her grandfather which she has fittered away on frivolities.

Despite breaking her agreement with us, she is continuing along in the behaviors that violate the agreement, believing we will bankroll and enable such to continue.

This is what we must deal with and she will have a rude awakening.

To avoid causing further hurt to her, we decided to see about having the discussion with her in the presence of her counselor so she could feel safe and have an advocate.

We called the counselor to see if this was possible or recommended. The counselor called our daughter to ask if she was willing to do so. She came raging into my room demanding to know why we didn't ask her and why we had to involve a "middleman" and what did we want to talk about, and did I tell Dad to call the counselor? (because she knows from the past that Dad doesn't act on his own)

Very mad at me, wanting to know WHAT we wanted to talk about.

I had to explain over and over that it was an attempt to talk in a safe environment for her, but we could do it without her counselor if she wanted.

I understand her feeling disrespected by asking the counselor first - but we were counseled to do so and see if the counselor would meet with us before suggesting it to our daughter.

We spent 2 hours with a family counselor and 2 hours with a rape crisis family support counselor yesterday all in an attempt to do the right thing by our daughter.

I was exhausted at the end of the day. Yet, it appears we did it wrong.

She called her dad to vent about how angry she was at me (He placed the call, but remember, to her thinking and past experience, I made it happen.)

He apologized and asked if meeting was still a possibility. She said yes. But, we have still not heard from the counselor.

My frustration is that after all the counsel we received yesterday about keeping the rape and the broken trust issues separate, my H started to write out what he wanted to say to our daughter (he feels more comfortable reading and speaking).
He started with how sorry, etc.,etc. about the rape, a crime was committed against you, you are not at fault, you are love, etc. and then began the "however" because you violated the behavior standards you agreed to, you got raped.

I tried to point out how that was EXACTLY what the 2 counselors said NOT to do. Don't link them. He didn't get it. He said the rape talk was to segue into the broken trust talk. I said, again, they are NOT to be discussed at the same time.

Where is his brain? All the frustrations of working with him to decide anything came flooding back and I hated being, once again, in the "teacher, mother," role of trying to explain to him what he'd just spend 4 hours paying people to tell him.

I left at the end of that night feeling like I have no way to relate to this guy.

Reinforced was the short talk we had yesterday about our marriage wherein he said nothing had changed for him since the separation began.

He didn't remember saying to me what he said on May 17 that I took as a basis for how to assess my marriage now.

I'm making decisions in my heart based on what he said to me that night and now he doesn't remember any of it.

Today the OW got married.

My husband was not "the love of her life".

He was crushed to hear she was getting married even tho she had broken it off and had NC (one slip) since Jan. 08, and said he knew he couldn't hope for a life with her.

It was hard for me today.

While you will all jump in and tell me to move on, he's not worth it, feeling this way won't help you or your girls, etc.....

I still am jealous. Jealous that despite being a screwed up promiscuous, dysfunctional girl -- my husband preferred her over me.

Jealous that despite having a reputation for and history of sleeping with countless men -- she now gets to marry a man who loves her. She gets to start her married life with someone who wants her---I never did.

Jealous that she gets to look forward to a life with a lover, children and a loving family -- but she left me without a husband, broken children and a broken, hurting family.

She gets everything I should have.

I get nothing I should have --because of her.

Is it alright to feel this way today, the day she gets married?

Can you give me that?

You feel how you feel. I've never been one to believe that feelings are either right or wrong. They just are.

I can totally understand your feeling what you are feeling. Big hugs to you.

You feel jealous. It's a feeling, and I understand why you feel jealous. No one could tell you that you "shouldn't" feel that way.

I will, however, argue with some of your other statements.

"She gets everything I should have...I get nothing I should have--because of her."

I think you're missing something big here. If she is as you have described, her marriage will NOT be one to envy, believe me. She will mess it up, and hurt other people in the process. But that isn't the point.

The real point is that, even had she never entered your life, you would not have the marriage you wanted. Your H has proven lousy marriage material. He has treated you horribly for YEARS, for the whole marriage, if your earlier posts are truthful, and I believe they ARE. He has been sadistic, cruel, dismissive, and just plain selfish. He is still that way today. And in all this time, he has given you no reason to believe he will ever change. Why should he? He knows you want him back anyway!

I am sorry you have lost so many years to this emotional meat grinder.

I hope you are not so damaged as to remain unable to pull yourself away from him and never look back.

I pray you will find a way to bring life and goodness to your remaining years.

I fear my prayers will go unanswered.

I am sorry for all your pain...

Jealousy is an awful feeling. It's been a year since I found out about the OW and I'm still jealous, but it does get better. Hang in there. Because you ARE better off without him. You know that already, but like all of us, pepper those facts with thoughts of "Why couldn't he just do/feel/act that way with me instead of her?" or "If only he..." "Then we could have made it."

These feeling ARE natural. But they don't help. Changing your internal dialog is tough when you have a broken heart. But once you can, the world will be yours again.

Let him be crushed. He deserves it. Don't you dare look for more pain from the situation because he is crushed over OW. He destroyed his life on a smokescreen and deserves to suffer the consequences now that it has crashed and burned. It has nothing to do with you as a quality person.

I have been gone for several days to a conference.

I am struggling now with the fulltime job it is for me AND my daughter to maintain our property. I can't do alot of things that need more strength, or stamina than I have. Seasonal chores, maintenance chores, breakdowns, etc. My husband doesn't want me to spend too much money. I explained the needs and how even my daughter is seeing things that need doing that he deferred or never saw and so doesn't understand that $$ is needed to fix.

Then there is the house and cooking, laundry and cleaning.

Then I am suppose to be "moving on" and finding what I WANT to do, reinventing myself, so to speak, take classes, get a job, etc.

Just outside is full time work.

Just inside is full time work.

Grieving, managing the many moods and trying to look for what it is I am suppose to be doing, is full time work.

Seeking God and trying to find and stay in His Presence is full time work.

I succeed at none.

Rightthere: I do not necessarily "want him back". I want a marriage that honors God - he is not willing to have that with me.

I am sad, grieving and depressed that the enemy is winning and I am made to feel by my husband to be less than human, less than normal, dysfunctional, because I'm not willing to accept nothing as a marriage.

I depend on him to support me and should have been able to the rest of my life. I worked to build a home, family and 2 businesses with him.

I don't necessarily want HIM back, but I want to honor my marriage commitment. Doing that right now seems to mean I am hung out to dry indefinitely while he "can't decide what to do."

He's not with me, but he has absolute financial power over me.

Don't tell me to go get a job - there aren't any out there to support me. I have been advised NOT to try and make money and support myself NOW as it will diminish my ability to collect alimony as a long term wife and stay at home mom.

I am tired to being told platitudes.

I am tired of being told that expressing these feelings is "doing me no good."

I am tired of trying to rise above these feelings, look for distractions to keep me from dealing with the reality of my life.

Why in other situations do we encourage people to embrace the pain, let themselves feel it, seek help to process through it, but with adultery we are told to look for distractions?

Whenever I open up my depressed side, I tend to get blasted.

As far as the OW having a marriage she will mess up - I don't know. I know she got help for her sexual problem. I know all therapy was directed at helping her heal, not deal with the mess she created.

She is probably feeling like she is in a good spot right now. She will probably have a good marriage. She learned from seeing ours what not to do.

But, when it comes to us, she believes she was the victim of a predator (my H) and she did not have much to do with it, despite her initiation of sex with him.

I have learned that when people who warned her that she was being inappropriate with my husband ask her now how she is doing, they are told that they "gossip." Nothing said to reveal the truth is what she wants.

I'm trying, but I'm feeling held hostage by my husband because I place more importance on fidelity and commitment than he.

77,
I haven't been around for months. So, I can tell what I have noticed has changed. NOTHING. You are entitled to your feelings. But, you are drowning in them. You have been drowning in them for years. You refuse to swim to the shore. You make mention of your age often. Your body is aging. You don't have much time left (my grama is 89 years old and fit as a fiddle but that is another story).

Realistically, you probably have another 10-20 good years left if you are lucky. This depression will kill you.

So, now that you have felt your feelings and feel good and sorry for yourself, what are you going to DO?

What would you tell your daughter if she were married to a man that hated her and abused her for years? Don't blame this on religion either because my bible allows divorce in situations of infidelity.

What have you told your poor daughter that was raped? I hope you didn't tell her that it was her fault because she went to a party and drank. It wasn't a great choice but she did not deserve to lose her virginity that way.

I understand that this is hard. Bad things have happened. We all understand that things are not fun for you. Life is hard. You are giving up.

Your husband has left and controls the money. He sees himself adjusted to being single within a year. He has a great time without you. He vacations and travels. He flirts with his daughter's friends. He is quiet around you because he is happier away and probably feels guilty. He probably just wants to be somewhere else. You have your feelings and your ideals. You doggedly cling to your pain and self-pity.

Is this what you want? Will you spend the next 10 years wallowing? What are you teaching your daughters? Martyrdom?

I know that you feel blasted. I know that I am harsh and I am sorry if I cause you any additional pain. I am harsh because it is a waste. It doesn't have to be this hard. You make it harder than it needs to be. You can stay married until you die if you wish and still find joy in each day - without your cheating, unloving, abusive husband. People separate and live happy lives. It can be done. You can't make your husband do or be anything that he is unwilling to be.

OK, my two best counselors have responded.

What is the action you are encouraging me to take?

Are you saying I should file?

If you were here and shook me and said, "....." what would that be?

About my daughter's rape. I have told her what happened to her was wrong. A crime was committed against her. I am very sorry. I want to help her recover, etc. She says, "yeah, yeah." and dismisses me.

Thanks, 77

Thanks for the compliment, 77. I have tried to put myself in your place. I have felt your pain. It kills me to see you allowing it to continue. I don't know about Stillstanding, but what I'm saying is, yes, I think you should file. And I am 100% pro marriage. When marriage is unending and deliberate torture, I am 100% for breaking away from the abuse. So is Dr. Harley, a far better advisor than any of us here could be.

Since your husband has made it clear he doesn't want the marriage, of course he should be the one to file. But as you've seen in so many ways over the years, he has never been about taking difficult, responsible steps--he leaves that to you.


If I could be there, I would put my hands on your shoulders, look you in the eye, and say, "You are worth so much more than you have been offered in this marriage. Your husband has been abusing you for years. You are an abused wife. He has no motivation to stop the abuse. Only you can do it. PLEASE do it. File."

And stay here as you go through it. We will be here.

This is a different subject, and I don't want to dilute the responses to either one by combining them.

It's good that you have told your daughter what you think and how you feel. I suspect she is too hurt and angry to have an in-depth conversation with you about it. I do hope she will get counseling. Maybe your other daughter could help her do that. Sometimes our prayer must recognize that we are not always the one who can help--so we say to God, "Please send someone else."

She has been abused, and it's an awful thing. You have been abused as well, and that's awful too. Both things need to be put right.

You have my prayers, which include "Please, God, send someone else."

I responded to the rape question by stillstanding. My daughter is getting counseling.

Received word tonight that my cousin's son-in-law killed himself this morning. Left 3 young children.

My older daughter and I are trying to get flights out tomorrow.

What a tragedy. Those poor kids...and all the family. I'm sorry for this additional sorrow. Seems like when it rains, it pours. (((77)))

Glad DD is getting counseling. Not an easy thing to work through. Prayers for both of you.

RHW

(((77)))

I'm so sorry for your loss.

I'm glad that your daughter is getting counselling. Please don't take it personally if she can't talk about this with you. Sometimes, it is hard to face your parents. Take comfort that she has help. Be a safe place for her to find comfort. Please do not chastise her at all for this. She will blame herself enough for this I imagine.

As for you, if I were there, I would never shake you. I would give you a big hug and tell you that it will be ok. I would advise you to get a "legal" separation to honor your wishes towards marriage. I would urge you to get your money straight. I would tell you to start liiving and enjoying life without the abuse. You CAN end the abuse. You can say NO MORE. ENOUGH! You can do this.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you as you go through yet another blow. Hang in there, it's got to get better, soon!

Assume you're back from the funeral. How are you doing?

Got home last night, June 23.

I stayed to help. Widow and kids moved to parents (my 1st cousin) upon the death. 2.000 attended viewing. Deceased was a state trooper under job stress for 18 mons. Apparently nothing in place to help the troopers. The widow tried everything, he was hospitalized for a while, had to wait months for counseling - left totally up to the family. Was suffering alot of physical, emotional and mental symptoms.

The widow wants to never let this happen again. She wants to see the "system" change. But right now, is scrambling to figure out how to support her family, does she need to sell the house, take the job, move with parents, etc.

Hardly any time to grieve.

I worked as a servant. Kept the food, laundry, cleaning going as the house was full and constant with calls, texts, emails and three little crazy kids. ( and their even crazier visiting 3 year old twin cousins.)

The little guys tried to crawl in the coffin with their daddy and open his eyes to "wake him up".

The whole family is wrecked.

I knocked myself out to keep the physical needs met and was well appreciated. The deceased's mother wanted to take me home with her. My cousin said she could have never made it without me. At first she thought she should get up and help, then she saw she could just let me do whatever was needed -- I would see it and do it. She could just deal with her family and grandkids and grieving. So I felt I helped.

But, one night when the deceased's friends came to counsel the widow - one trooper partner, one insurance broker, one former military - they brought up everything - the offer the state police would make or not make her, insurance policies, the mortgage, trust fund for the kids, etc. -- I once again started thinking about what I need to do and don't want to.

The widow did the bill paying, the deceased did not do a good job of filing,record keeping, etc. so she has to find and figure alot out.

I always tried to teach my husband how to organize our records and finances. I tried, but finally had to let go of my concerns about savings, investment, retirement, etc. because bringing them up made him feel like he could not please me, he was a "failure".

Turns out I will have to now go back and gather, organize and see how little he has probably planned for a future.

I guess it's the finding out and further disappointment and probably anger that I will feel at his lack of care about me and therefore planning for our future and old age that I dread.

The truth of, "yes, he did fail to take care of us" despite earning a good living.

Listening to the widow talk about their investments for retirement, and how they varied the percentage of what they invested as a kid-less couple, then as parents, and planning on increasing it again as his salary increased - all served to make me feel further disappointed with a husband who would never have such conversations with me.

I have always been frustrated in attempting to have such conversations with my husband about such things. Now I understand why - because he said he never wanted a future with me. OK - but since you stayed with our family for 33 years - don't you think something was in order to plan? How else were we to be taken care of?

I was doing OK helping my family at this tragedy until the "meeting" of advisors and family began to show me once again, how little my husband cared to plan for us compared to most people.

Once when I asked him how we would live after retirement, he said, "We have two businesses we can sell."

Well, first of all, you have to have someone willing to buy the business, then you have to get enough for it, then you have to invest the profit to provide an income.

So, he sold one business in OCT and after paying off the realtor, lawyer, accountant, share holders, taxes, etc. there is nothing to "live off of for retirement". He did pay off the house. But doesn't that mean that one of us will have to buy out the other or sell it?

Century farm, which my oldest daughter wants to run, so I want to keep it in the family, his family, which it belongs to. How will I "buy him out"?

So that leaves the other business which he still manages and works in. This business provides our livelihood. He says he'll never retire. So selling it is not a likely possibility.

Seems he has set it up so that he will have to work until he drops dead to keep an income coming. He has put nothing in place to pass it on or train a new manager, etc.

So, the upshot of my family's tragic loss has served to make me dread even more what I must now deal with. I will be the one, like my widowed cousin, to have to pull it all together and figure out how to live.

To top it off, my sister (breast cancer survivor who I spent weeks living with and taking care of during her treatment, thereby allowing my H to have gobs of time alone with OW in our home to further develop his EA) told me today she is now being tested for ovarian cancer as her CA125 levels are "elevated".

Sometimes I think I must be a pretty stubborn case if God has to do so much "refining" on me.

It was a sacred service you performed for your widowed relative during that crisis, 77. Know that. Perhaps you will stay in touch with her as she works through her grief and the process of providing for her family. She will hunt down what resources she needs, as will you. It will be very hard for you both, but women have done for centuries.

Please try not to focus solely on what your husband didn't do to provide for your later years...and investigate what you CAN do to provide for yourself. You are close to being able to collect on Social Security, for example. A judge will divide your property and income fairly (50/50 in many states). Plus, your H will be required to pay alimony, and who knows what other expenses. You must protect yourself at this point, because you have learned that he will not. And in the end, You will be okay.

If you need inspiration, read Chai's thread. Her WH left her after 30-some years of marriage and ran off with OW. She had no job, only a fledgling business that was failing. She had to sell their home, moved into a small condo. He paid her not one cent. After their nasty divorce two years later, she was left with very little. All this while dealing with a drug-addicted daughter, who got pregnant--twice--but wouldn't clean up. She cared for the first one, a "crack baby" after he was born. It was unbelievably hard, but she just kept putting one foot in front of the other. Her newer thread shows a woman who triumphed in the end, with nothing but hateful stuff coming from her WH the whole way. An inspiration, even in her darkest hours.

Look for inspiration, 77, here, and wherever you can find it.

You CAN do it. You must, to preserve your sanity and hope of a better life.

If you'd like, ask the mods for my email address. I'll stay with you.

(((77)))

Right - I attempted an email to the moderator Justuss2 and haven't heard anything yet.

thanks, just thanks.

I'll make the request as well.

77, did you get my email address? If not, let's just set a time when we'll both be here and I'll type it here. When you post that you've got it, I'll delete it.

No, I have gotten nothing.
I can be available Friday, July 9th.
I am in the Pacific time zone so after 10am would be best PDT.

see you here tomorrow, 10 am your time.

Missed you, I guess. Deleted addy.

My apologies, got away from me, forgot to check the forum before Friday, so didn't have the time..
If you're willing to try again, your call and choice of time.

So sorry

Hi 77. I'm going to be online most of today, and I've got your thread marked to email me when there's a post made.

So, I'll keep checking.

RHW

HAH! Maybe I gotcha this time.
Here's how to reach me:

Tried it - gaming website? Did I miss something?

Huh? That wasn't a website, it's my email address...

Maybe you could post YOUR email address (and delete when I get it) and I'll start.

Hasn't arrived yet. Been checking. Maybe it's rush hour in cyberspace...

***edit***

.

You can edit it out yourself, 77...just click on "Edit" on that post and remove it.

If you have any problem doing so, click the "Notify" button and email the moderators.

Also, when you post an email address and you don't want the spiders to pick it up, put spaces in it and use the word 'at' instead of the symbol. That way, you won't get a ton of spam for the time it is up for someone.

LA

<groan> Wish I'd known that before I posted MINE...
Ah, the spamblocker will probably catch 'em.

thanks, but I tried to delete it this morning and they said it could no longer be deleted. I have sent a notice using the notify button. Thanks.

Thanks much, McLovin!

Update:

My H took until the end of August to sign a new nonlegal separation agreement that expired in May. He has decided to not decide.

I convinced him to let me take over the bill paying in August after all the bills were 2 months overdue, the internet threatened to turn off and the auto insurance lapsed. He didn't have time to pay the bills (but he had time to play every weekend).

Took me 6 weeks to balance the checkbook -- he hadn't tallied anything since May and said he had a hard time knowing how much money was in the account.

My youngest daughter (rape victim) is back in college and in a serious relationship with the former boyfriend from high school who will leave for basic training with the Air Force in Jan. She is talking wedding. I believe she is trying to find the MAN who will care for her since none have panned out so far - birth father, adoptive father, rapist, jerky boyfriends)

Oldest daughter and I are slaving at home to maintain house and property. Apple harvest, basement rehab after winter flooding, rotten porch replacement, and winterizing. I am tired of doing both man and woman's work!

Just when I was getting ready to enjoy Fall, start sewing and crafting for Christmas and start a new exercise program, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

The "rain" has not stopped: husband's infidelity, broken back, daughter's rape, and now, breast cancer.

My mom died from BC at age 52. My sister was diagnosed at 53 and I walked with her through 2 surgeries, chemo and radiation, living with her a week a a time after each surgery and chemo treatment. (While my H and OW had all that time to each other in my home)

I see a surgeon Oct. 20th. I'm pretty sure lumpectomy is in order. As to chemo or other medication therapy, will have to hear the Drs. recommendation -- what with my family history being so bad.

When does it stop "raining"?

Hello 77. I am so sorry to hear of the latest developments. Will be praying for you on the 20th, that this will be caught early, and resolved. I know how much this will weigh on your mind until you know more. Godspeed. (((77)))

Doesn't sound like your WH has made much progress. Real slow learner, that one. Since you are posting on the Divorced/Divorcing thread, can I assume a D is in progress? Or is he still enjoying all the administrative services you provide, while he parties like a frat boy with no end in sight? Have you seen a lawyer?

I don't know WHAT kind of progress, or even what "progress" means in this situation, he has made.

As it stands now, neither of us can proceed with divorce or legal separation without letting the other know ahead of time.

He does not want to make a decision, he does not want to "fail" at marriage. (As I tell him, we already have, so where do you want to go from here?)

After I finally wrote out a new agreement and much arm twisting, months later he finally signed it and dated it to extend until next Feb. at which time we will have been separated a year.

He has the better deal - just puts some money in our checking acct. every week (he usually remembers, but not always) has no home responsibilities where he lives except to help muck horse stalls, plays most weekends, doesn't have to do anything for his invalid Dad, sister feeds him every Sunday night and sends home let-overs (or any other night of the week he cares to show up at his Dad's when his sister makes dinner - 5 nights a week)gets to see his children most times he wants and only really attends to any chores at our home if it is something his daughter asks to get done or have help getting done.

It's hard to watch OUR friends invite him to activities with them that we both used to do, but now only he is invited to. I understand their awkwardness and if it is an activity the guys "do" and the wives just hang out (like diving for abalone) he is the one they really want to play with. But it's hard to always be left out and learn about the camping, fishing, ocean trips later.

This Sunday my daughter and I invited our church and other friends to harvest and take apples, enjoy a potluck and fellowship at our home. We busted our butts finishing the basement repair, setting up the yard for potluck, collecting boxes for apples, making food, etc.

Many friends I looked forward to seeing didn't come. Last night I learned they were all at the coast - with my husband. They aren't malicious or secretive, they just diplomatically don't mention what they have done or with who.

I feel like I'm the last to know, the one from whom the great secret is being kept - everybody knows but me, I'm living in an artificial reality,

But even harder is the feeling that he is preferred over me. The one who betrayed us all gets to continue in wonderful relationship with our friends as if nothing happened while I am the estranged one.

Once again the "I am the one being punished for his adultery " thought raises its ugly head.

The friends still talk to me, but gosh darn it, I haven't been camping or fishing or hiking or to the ocean all summer. I've been home slugging it out on the basement, porch, orchard, etc. I miss nature and the outings I enjoy.

I feel like the second class citizen of physical fitness. She can't do this or that because she has to take it easy because of her injured back. Now she has to take it easy because of breast surgery.

I feel rejected as a wife emotionally and physically. Damaged goods physically because of my broken back and now, breast cancer, failed as a parent because my daughter chose to go against all my best training and put herself at risk and was violated (I know you will say, not your fault, her choice, but a parent still feels like they didn't do enough and people will think, "so much for her parenting technique, look what happened to her daughter!")

So here's my pity party. Last night was hard. When it all hits at once and now I have to factor in the possibility that THIS is it, I may not have much more life to live, more time to restore what has been lost, give what I still have to give to grandchildren I will never see or know. Pretty tough. I am not feeling old enough to "go" yet.

I still feel cheated.

Safe to say there's been none, if this is what we've got all these many months later.


I have to wonder, what's stopping you from letting him know? Especially since...


What's in this for YOU? What about YOUR life?


I know this hurts. Glad you realize it's not vindictive on their part, but it sure is insensitive. Yes, people sometimes don't know how to respond in awkward situations, but still... You're learning who your friends really are.

I hope you can take pleasure in the friends who DO show up, like for the apple picking. Can you get together with any of these women, one-on-one? Lunch? Coffee? You're going to need support as you go through this breast cancer procedure. I pray with you that it will be easily resolved.


Yes, you know it's not your fault. Thing is, you couldn't control your daughter's innocent, foolish choices, despite your good parenting. Nor can you control what others (may) think or how they (may) judge it. Don't give those thoughts room in your head, because it's ALL conjecture on your part. Don't torture yourself with conjecture!


Oh, 77, I hear you on this. I am a couple of years older than you, and I fear not being around to see our four (so far) grandchildren grow up. They are all little now. I project out 10 years, when they will still be very young, but I won't be, if I'm here at all. I look at the youngest (3 months old) and wonder if he'll ever know his grandma. Longevity is not in my genetic background. I feel cheated by that, but it is what it is.

I think we all have these thoughts when we reach a certain age.

The best response is to live the very best life we can, while we still live. Not let our losses cheat us out of the life and love we have left. Not get stuck in the quagmire of things we don't have.

After working hard through my H's A to keep my sanity, and working exclusively these past 4+ years on recovery, I am looking to put back into my life some of the other, good things that were lost, or put aside to devote every day to that one goal. I mourn those losses (friendships let lapse, a fulfilling job, being engaged with the "outside" world).

In a way, we're both in the same place--reclaiming life, whether divorced or recovered, whether it's one more year, or 10.

Let's talk about ways we care going to do that.

I have been trying to reclaim life. When I just get up and moving, but still dealing with the sadness and anger of my H's A, that is when something new comes along as another attack against those efforts.

I often see myself as a woman thrown into water over my head...with an enemy attempting to kill me. The safest position is keeping my head down. But, I have to come up to breathe every so often. When I come up, WHAM!! something hits me in the head and down I go struggling for air with blood running over my eyes. Hard to breathe. Hard to see.

I was looking into returning to school to get a Master's degree (funded how, I do not know) when the cancer came up. Instead of meeting with the professor in charge of graduate studies, I was getting a needle biopsy. I am still trying to meet with her. Her office hours are on Tues. mornings. Next Wed I see the surgeon. I was hoping perhaps, to sneak in an appt. with the school BEFORE I get the big C plan just so I can have one day of thinking about a possible future without cancer treatment in it.

I do have a corps of mature Christian women who have all offered to go with me to appts., help in any way they can. None have actually had cancer, but several have had biopsies. A few have broken marriages and we struggle along together --mostly to call each other up to a higher place. We give 2 x 4's up the side of the head to each other to keep us out of the pit of pity thoughts and critical, negative thinking. They do for me what you do.

I let more negativity hang out with you as you are anonymous and don't know my husband or have to ever see us. You don't have to play the "game" of acting normal around us or people who don't know the truth of the A, trying to tiptoe around the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room.

Thanks for reading my posts. I think you are the only one left -- still hanging in there with a rather discouraging gal.

I'm sure you feel like Job sometimes, 77. And I sure don't blame you--you've been dealing with all kinds of garbage for a long time now. My heart goes out to you.

Only person I can think of who's dealt with as much is ChaiLover. Have you read her thread? If not, please look for it--it is very inspiring. She finally reached the other side, and while that didn't include recovering her marriage, she is good with herself. Actually, I think she realized that she was better off without her H, because he continued to treat her shabbily after her very best efforts. But she went through the wringer before she got there.


Absolute bummer. I hope you can pursue this after your procedure. Ask about scholarships! Surely they exist for older women trying to rebuild their life. Ask the professor if there are resources you can check into when you get that meeting.



I am SO glad you have these women in your life! Nothing like a friend with a 2x4 to blast you out of a pity party...


I'm happy to hear you say this. Couldn't have said it better myself. I have found that to be true as well. It IS safe to be totally real with another human being who is very real but anonymous. I have shared more intimate truth with people I've never met than with any of the people I have to face in my day-to-day life. I don't want my life to be a National Inquirer story to the people I deal with face to face! <shudder>


Not discouraging. Discouraged.

I don't know who else is reading (and neither do you). For all we know, there is someone in your spot who is just as discouraged, and searching for the same answers. Maybe something we say here contributes to someone else's resolution--who knows?

Even if if it is just me and you, it's nice to have the company. Glad you posted again after that hiatus. I've been worried about you and wondering what was going on.

Keep me posted.

Saw my counselor today. Shared the feelings of being left out of activities with old friends in favor of my husband.

She feels I have ruts of negative thinking that the enemy is using to suck the life out of me - victim mentality. I must overcome/change this.

I feel I have been working a long time on that very thing. Taking thoughts captive. Recognizing when I am thinking and following the old path. Declaring His Word over me, etc.

But then something new hits - rape, cancer,H not following through again on what he has said he would do, ? and the negative thoughts come again in force. How can one NOT deal with reality? Isn't that unhealthy to pretend the negative reality isn't there?

So the battlefield, as Joyce Meyer says, is in the mind.

Spent tonight at church learning about the redemptive gift of "teacher" - who intellectualizes and researches everything. So if that is me, is trying to think differently counterproductive to my very temperment? Do I have to become a different person to overcome my husband's A?

Haven't posted since Oct. 2010.
Had surgery for breast cancer end of Nov. 2010 - lump tested out as benign despite the biopsy indicating cancer still in the duct. No chemo, no radiation. One follow-up mammo didn't raise any concerns. Thanking God for that.

After recovery turned my attention once again to Master's degree. I had been told to prove myself as a student before attempting to apply to a Master's program. I enrolled in two upper division classes at our local state university through a special extended education offering. I didn't have to be accepted into the university as a full time student.

I was in class with students my daughters' ages. Found out that the kind of student I was as an undergrad (1968-73) is now considered to be an exemplary student. I got A's. So, proved that I can still be a student.

Haven't decided to apply to Master's program as I couldn't start until Fall 2012, will require moving, and have been told I don't need the credentialing of a Masters to do what I want to do - record digitally life stories to archive for historians to use in writing histories and making documentaries of times and movements.

I have spent the last year and summer with continuing home repairs, maintenance and housing and feeding 2 kids. My husband continues to be separated, living with no responsibilities and having fun recreating and vacationing with friends. ( one of our friends says my husband is being an adolescent) I am resentful that I am left with work, financial planning to try and cover everything, bill paying and no money for me to have a vacation or take off every weekend to have fun somewhere as he does.

Then in May he threw a curve at me and bought the house down the road that his father buildt and he lived in until 10 years old when our oldest said she had always hoped to get it back into the family.

I was concerned how to pay for a house that sold above the asking price and called a meeting with my list of demands to take place if he was going to buy this house with OUR money without my agreement. He just "thought" he could do it. Not good enough for me.

Upshot is I spent 2 months searching out, scheduling and paying for replumbing, wiring, painting, floor refinishing, clean-up. Our daughter will move there in Jan after missionaries finish living there gratis for 6 months.

He make the decision, I did the work - he bought it as single occupant, but it is community property, when it was empty was the time to fix it and I needed to make it livable and safe for occupancy. My husband wouldn't have done anything, despite all the warnings in the home inspection report.

I will continue this later. My emotions around all of this are challenging. Even though separated, still being supported by him creates these ongoing situations that always seem to mean more work and heartache for me while he comes out smelling like a rose. Steve Harley told me that he doesn't realize how his actions affect others. That is so true, he's like an adolescent alright, who is concerned only about his own fun and comfort.

77,

You sound much calmer. And it sounds as if you have found something that interests you. Collecting oral histories sounds fascinating. And I am glad you found that you can compete with those young kids in academics. I obtained my PhD as an older student. The hardest class I took was Neuroscience with the medical students. It was rough since my anatomy and microbiology classes had been so many years earlier.

Your husband seems the same - operating in his own little world without thought to anyone else. Do you have a clear-cut, well-defined financial separation? Why did you do all the work on that house if you didn't want to? Why do you do things you don't want to when there are so many things to do that could give you enjoyment?

AM

No legal separation in place. I am supported by him. Houses are community property - so despite him purchasing the house without my involvment (although I did have a "come to Jesus" meeting with him and let him know that I owned what he bought and carried the same financial responsibility), I would be financially responsible also, and wanted to know what his plan was for PAYING for the house? He "thought" he could cover it from this and that, etc. He actually bought it for our daughter to move into and as part of the family heritage.

It was empty, needed repair and that's the best time to do it. I did it with the thinking in mind that "this is for my daughter, this is to bless my daughter" and tried not to get upset over being left once again to do the work necessary as a result of a situation he created.

I am actually looking forward to my daughter having her own place. She is 27 and has her own life and 'stuff' that needs its own space. My concern is that he will move in with her and she will end up taking care of him -- as he always seems to find people who do that. This could masquerade as daughter "duty".

After finishing that project I thought I would be doing some things I needed and wanted to do for myself when he brought up the barn - some complaint he had about it. After renovating our house 11 years ago, he threw all the leftovers in the barn, much way high up on shelves requiring a 30 ft. ladder and a man to access - things I needed every season. I had asked to be present when the items were stored so as to organize by kind and accessibility. He did it when I wasn't home and tending to my father. There are things I haven't found in 11 years and things I can't get to that I needed seasonally - camping gear on top shelf, summer patio chairs on top shelf, etc.

When he brought up the barn for some reason, I reminded him that I told him years ago I would need him and a man for 1 week to clean out that barn (everything was covered in dirt because he didn't see the point in putting doors between the horse stalls of loamy soil and the stored items in the beginning as I suggested until years later.)

He called back and told me the only week he had was July 11 so I had to go with it because I needed it done. Surprised me that he didn't just drop it as he has done before. I did grueling man work with him for a week and got everything out of the barn, powerwashed, returned, labeled and stored properly. I had a dump truck load of garbage and several thrift shop loads. I am glad it was done, it needed to be done, but just tired of always doing the work. He did do this with me, I don't know why, other than perhaps he wants my "crap" as he calls our belongings, cleared out so it will be easier for him when and if he takes over the place and I leave.

He is the junky piler and unorganized one. I have spent most of my cleaning out projects the last year trying to clean up the yard messes he left. My daughter actually started with the livestock feed room last year. It bugs her too. She couldn't understand why there was motor oil, paint products and insectides in the feed room, AND the shop both. She cleared out the feed room. Encouraged me to see the "messy" genes had not been inherited by her!

More later

Your daughter is 27? Why wasn't she in charge of getting the new/old house fixed up? Why did you take on something as yours when it really should have belonged to her?

Purchased by her father. She is newly graduated from college, temporary job that started 2 weeks ago, planning on grad school within two years. She is not able to take on a rental let alone a mortgage.

This was something her father felt he could do to help launch her. HE should have been the one to do the fixing. He works full time, I don't, it was bought with our money. If I wanted to see anything done, I had to do it.

I expect in the future she will take over more and more of the payments and expenses as she gets her feet under her and eventually buy it from us.

I am done. I did my part. All bills, mortgage payments, etc. are his and her responsibility.

If he starts missing mortgage payments, I will have to do a legal separation to prevent my credit from being trashed and get my share out before he mis- uses our funds.

So, the house doesn't belong to my daughter, more like she is a renter. It belongs to my husband and I, although he moved into buying it without consulting me.

Actually, I was asking less about the finances than about the work of getting the house fixed up. Specifically, the part where you said

This purchase was not well thought out. I happened to be at the debriefing by the house inspector when I learned of all the "fix-its" necessary.

I asked my husband about doing one of the fix its on the list, and given his track record of getting things done (he made a practice in our marriage of telling me he would do something and then put it off or not do it until he forgot that it ever needed doing) I asked him if he was going to do it, when, etc? When he hems and haws I finally ask him if he wants me to do it - get his OK and then get it done, rather than fume over it not getting done.

I just took on the search, let him know the amount and scheduled it when he Oked it. He works full time - I could meet with contractors for bids and workers to let them in and out during the day, otherwise it would have taken months - if he did decide to do anything about the fix-it list.

The plan was not at that time for my daughter to move in, but to prepare it for missionaries to live in during their 6 month sabbatical. I figured after that my Husband would probably move in.

In the midst of the fix up is when our daughter asked to meet with us and inquired as to what she would have to do to be able to live there after the missionaries moved out as she could not fully pay the mortgage. That is when my husband struck the deal for her to live there for a certain amount.

She did help with some cleaning, moving of stuff and decision making and took care of our home (cooking, cleaning, laundry) while I powered through the tasks on the new house.

As I said before, since I have finished the fix-it list, the responsibility for maintenance now goes to my husband and daughter - they can sort it out.

I'm lost on what is going on here. No separation agreement, no Plan B and you pick up his mess? How long are you willing to live like this? Sorry if my words sound harsh but this sounds like hell.

Yep, it ain't no picnic. I told him the other day that he needed to give me money outside of my household budget so I could go on a vacation, also. Like he does, using money outside of our shared checking account. He has other funds he draws from for his fun. I don't have "other" funds. Basically he does not keep his business and personal expenses "separated" properly in my thinking.
He uses what he wants when he wants - changes the rules as he goes for his convenience.

Yep, it ain't no picnic. I told him the other day that he needed to give me money outside of my household budget so I could go on a vacation, also. Like he does, using money outside of our shared checking account. He has other funds he draws from for his fun. I don't have "other" funds. Basically he does not keep his business and personal expenses "separated" properly in my thinking.
He uses what he wants when he wants - changes the rules as he goes for his convenience.

Lost a long post to explain his latest move and reassure you I do have a plan B and enforced it recently. I am moving another step away from him and what I have been "mommying" for him.

So, almost 3 1/2 years post DDay, 18 mos. of MC with Steve Harley, failed R, 18 mos. of separation and the OW gone and now married to someone else.....
Leaves me with these thoughts.

Seems there are 2 schools of counsel:

1) Wait and trust for R, honor marriage covenant. WS is "screwed -up" - wait for them to straighten out and break out of the fog and decide they want marriage with you . No expectation of "work" on self or marriage. Somehow, you just "get back together and pick up where you left off. (I don't want to pick up where we left off or in any way have the same kind of marriage we had pre-A that led to the A.)

2) Don't expect WS to "change" to save your marriage. They are the way they are. No amount of counseling, self-work or act of God will change that. They have their dysfunctions that created the need for an A. They will never change, address or want to work on the core issues that could reconcile the marriage. You can not expect that. Accept that they are that way and cut bait and "move on" to find someone else who "will appreciate you, jewel that you are."


People, and these are people of my Faith, seem to have the two viewpoints and encourage me accordingly.

I don't want to take back the same person and have the same dysfunction in my marriage simply to "save" a marriage - full of unhappiness and play-acting (on my H's part).

If I stipulate "demands" - I will consider R if this and this is in place, or you/we will do/go this and that, etc. - then we are asking/expecting them to change which runs counter to the thinking of "you can't change them, can't expect them to change, if you want them/marriage, then just accept them/things how they are."

I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't. Counselors and friends feel I am foolish to not have divorced already.

Counselors and friends feel I am foolish to not have taken him back already.

How can there be such disparate views and approaches to handling As?