Didn't mean to trigger you with that word...wasn't aware the OW used it. It wasn't an accusation, though, believe me. I've been there, done that too. Hard to break out of. Try, if you can, to see the concept more objectively.

The very fact that you HAD to be independent in the face of his passivity, is in itself part of the "enmeshment" dynamic. You simply reacted to him, and he to you...a normal marital pattern, one that gets us all stuck.

"Invested," "enmeshed"--two sides of the same coin. I'm glad you have a therapist to sort this out with.

Your H is equally caught up in this dynamic. His games with the money is an attempt to keep it going. Resist it. Getting yourself untangled from his stuff is the work that will set you free, regardless of what happens to your marriage. Did I mention how good it is that you're working this through with a professional?

You're working through to peace. And health in the Lord. You go, girl. I know God's pulling for you too.

ETA: You're right that reaching a certain point of healing coincides with less time spent on these boards. I ain't 100% yet, and may never be, but since I started working more on ME than on what FWH should be doing, things have improved markedly. Nearly 4 years past D-day, I am finally healthy in the Lord again...and the marriage is much better too.

Thanks, rightthere.

I'm not triggered by the word "enmeshment". Just found it interesting that both the OW and I have/are dealing with that dynamic with the same man!

My IC says, yes, all of the above: codependent, enabler, enmeshment is what I am/did to keep the marriage going, as you pointed out.

Oh, dear, more homework to learn all about new dysfunctional behaviors and how to get free from them.

A passing thought: since my husband and I are only talking when needed about children or scheduling coming by to do or get things or my requests to spend on household care issues: plumber, mulch, painter, well drilling, our only conversations are me saying things need to be done and asking for money to be spent on them!

We don't "visit". I don't ask how he's doing, what he's doing, how he feels or anything except business at hand.

Consequently, our interactions leave me feeling like he only hears from me when I need something, and it appears negative. Kind of like when we lived together!

Our arrangement does not allow me to "go dark".

Just an observation.

Hey 77, If it's any comfort to you, MOST of us are dealing with enmeshment and a lot of those other things! It's a "normal" attribute of marriage and families, part of the human condition.

Perverse, isn't it?

Not sure what all those negative interactions with H will produce in the end, but it's not Plan B if you're still talking to each other. The no-contact imperative in Plan B is designed to protect you from having to deal with him and his stuff, and to let him see what life without being able to hook into you will be like.

I hope you are better with this arrangement than what you had before, and that you will come to a resolution soon. Limbo is very draining... Hugs on you.

All I can add is that I think there needs to be 100 percent boundaries and you need to decide what you want.

WH of yours imho, has lost the power to negotiate since he was in an ema. I'd personally tell him he has 1 day to come get all his stuff and have him out of the home.

He needs to see what it's like to really be divorced and alone.

I, too can say that my being single for five years as a single mom was way better than being married to my horrid and unrepentant xh.

I'm getting remarried this summer and can say that we have our priorities 100 percent together, and that this is nothing like it was. You have no idea what lies ahead for you, but have faith. I took a step out on faith and found myself again..and it was without my xws.

We're not really in plan B. We haven't done anything legal. He pays bills, Major expenses for home and kids have to be discussed and POJA.

I am using this time to spend lots of energy on learning about myself and dynamics of how that impacted my marriage and where to go from here---for me.

I hope he is doing the same.

We will revisit our situation in May.

I don't expect him to come home.

I do not want him home or in a relationship with me without certain requirements (boundaries) in place.

Not wanting to pick up where we left off, have the same kind of marriage relationship.

As I spend more time away from our relationship, I see how much I had to settle for less than what a marriage should be.

I still struggle with the idea of remarriage because of my spiritual beliefs. That could change as my perspective changes and God gives me more understanding.

I feel like I have to come out of my own "fog", so to speak. The fog of living under emotional abuse in the sense of emotional connection being withheld from me for my entire marriage.

I also, peachy, am taking the step to find myself. After a marriage of 33 years, that is taking a bit of digging.

77, so much of what you said in that post sounds healthy. No longer willing to settle for the status quo (which was harmful to you all along), and exploring YOU!
For so long, your H's bad behavior consumed your focus--now it's time for you to discover, unencumbered, what makes 77 tick. What she wants. Who she IS.

Unnerving. I remember my own disorientation after D-Day, wondering how I could ever start again (I was 58 at the time, and had been married for 37 years.) Although my FWH and I have reconciled, the shock waves of that time have forced me to do the very same work you are undertaking.

My point is, whether you reconcile or not, you'll be facing this life work.

As for your personal beliefs about remarriage...I really hear you. I believed exactly the same, which only heightened my anxiety about the future. I admire your courage in being willing to face that, and letting God lead you where He will..

In being apart, I don't find myself going through withdrawal of "him".
I am sad that it feels so meaningless to live alone.

I am sad that our relationship was so unremarkable that, although I think about him and our marriage constantly, I am not devastated without him.

If I had my own earning power and was able to support my lifestyle, I probably wouldn't have any connection to him other than the children.

It is sad to think all those years and all my efforts did nothing to bring him anywhere near enjoying me, wanting me.

It is sad to think I will never have a husband's arms around me, or to kiss me with desire --- sadder yet, that I never had that in 33 years.

Sure, I can go on and find out all the great things 77 can do -- but I know that ultimately, it was meant to be done together with my spouse.

I don't want my belief in remarriage to change because I meet another man and my desire for all I never experienced with my husband overrides my beliefs in order for me to obtain "happiness".

In other words, I don't want my belief system to change at the whim of my "feelings."

But, I still do so desire to have a relationship with a man like I always envisioned marriage to be, like I see displayed around me in church by mature couples walking in a ministry together and fully complimenting and supporting each other.

It still seems so strange to have MB telling you to spend QT together, meet needs, etc., then switch to telling me to "go on in your own life" without divorcing. Stay in a marriage, but live separate lives -- the same thing that got us to an A.

It's only strange if you forget that MB advises ONE partner to carry the full load till the other gets on board, BUT that he/she cannot suffer that position indefinitely. MB acknowledges that it ultimately takes BOTH partners to put it back together. And when one absolutely refuses, the advice is to walk away, knowing you gave it your all. You have given it your all, for a very, very long time, and still your H figuratively spits in your face.

I don't think God would ask you--or anyone--to continue that till you die, do you?

And if you happen to be Catholic, I would think that your circumstances would merit an annulment--even after all those years together--because your H sounds incapable of undertaking the commitment of marriage. He doesn't get it, never has... I think you have plenty of proof of that.

Just a thought. I wish you healing...and peace, 77.

Yes, I see. My husband would probably say, I need time. I WAS feeling positive about our prayer time together. (Then he also said that you can have a good prayer relationship with someone you have never even met. It doesn't mean romantic feelings of love are there.)

Not Catholic. Had a friend who divorced his wife and wanted to marry a Catholic. They wanted us to fill out the paperwork for annulment, to testify that the marriage was not a marriage, etc. We could not. We could not say that their marriage of 25 years was a "mistake" and therefore their two children were "mistakes."

It will be interesting to see what he tells me voluntarily when our 3 mos. trial separation period ends. If he thinks about it at all.

Rightthere,

Could you share with me what kind of "work" you did for yourself after DDay ? How did you become stronger?
Thanks

Today my H called.

He's going camping with friends, traveling to spend the night with another and taking a week off to travel out of state, visit, attend a concert and then show up at our daughter
s college graduation in the next month.

I'm getting a bid on screen doors, putting a room back together after painting, trying to deal with murky well water, dig filled in ditches for the rain, looking at all the painting and weatherstripping repair needed on the house, etc.

He lives in a travel trailer rent free on a friend's ranch. The friend takes care of the horses so he can take off.

I'm also in IC, Bible study, accountability with an older Christian woman, reading for self improvement, attending church regularly and trying to stay on even keel emotionally.

Why is separation putting even more work on me and he gets to play?

Is he "working" on himself? Is he doing all the self introspection I am? He is using this time as he said he needed, to learn about himself?

Seems like he is getting a deal - no work, responsibilities and gets to have fun with friends - all of whom have been divorced one or two times.

Definitely not hanging around "marriage friendly" people.

I'm just feeling bumbed.

I think I'll see if the daughters and I can go somewhere over night while they are here for Easter Break!

That sounds like a question that should be easy to answer, but it's not. Hard to say which of the things I did helped the most, because I did them all concurrently.

I read everything I could find on recovering from infidelity (including these boards); let a couple of people who were further down the recovery challenge my thinking (that was HUGE); and I prayed (a LOT). When things were really bad, I asked my doctor for anti-anxiety meds (he took one look at me and prescribed an anti-depressant too)

I also poured out my thoughts regularly in a journal. I found that very therapeutic.

I learned a bit about boundaries--still working on that, but one clear one I have is that I will not suffer another affair. And I think I stated it with enough conviction that my H knows I mean it. And I do. Whioe something else may rear up and bit me, I don't believe it will be that again.

Oh yeah. I think the passage of TIME was a big healer, too, but without those other things probably wouldn't have made much difference.

I say all this, knowing a big difference between our situations is that my H became a FWH. I can't tell you what would have helped me most if he'd not ultimately bought into fixing us.

I do hope someone who has recovered themselves without their partner involved will chime in here.

Thanks, right there.

Boundaries - of course no other affairs, but if my H decides he does want to come back and work on our marriage (very doubtful to me since he has said he NEVER wanted it and seems to be enjoying the "freedom" he has always wanted), what kind of boundaries or requirements should I be considering to even allow that to happen?

What kind of boundaries did you establish?

I believe in an earlier post you said you focused on yourself and the life you wanted to develop and your husband got "interested" and decided he wanted in on your new life, too.

I'm not planning on that happening, but aside of recovery efforts from the A for you personally, what was it you did to enhance your own life after suffering your husband's adultery?

I came late to the boundary game. Didn't understand the concept, at least, not beyond telling my H a few weeks after we did the MB weekend that I "only have one of these in me. Another affair and I will not be showing up to 'stand for the marriage' again. No questions, no discussion. I'll be d o n e."

He didn't answer, but I didn't care. I was SURE. I promised myself I would not allow myself to be treated that shabbily, ever again. Years ago, I heard someone say "When you speak with conviction, people get it." I think he got it.

When he decided to give up OW and do the MB program, I developed another boundary, based on an acute and sudden sensitivity to openness and honesty. I let him know that the lack of it would NOT work for me, or for us. He got honest. We both struggle with it sometimes, not wanting to rock the boat too much, but we persevere.

I don't remember posting anything about my H wanting to get in on my "new life." Sure that was me? I did try to do new things while he was off being wayward ...joined a gym, changed my hair, changed my clothes, reconnected with girlfriends I hadn't seen in years. But I WASN'T having a great time. I was putting one foot in front of the other, praying all the while. Kept me going till he pulled his head out of that dark orifice. Had he not, I would've kept doing those things while I figured out what to do beyond that. Actually considered moving to the other end of the country where my DD, SIL and their kids live. Knew I needed to be near loved ones...

Does any of this help?

Right there - everything helps you share with me.

I guess I have done similar.

I told him I would not tolerate being treated like this - I deserve better (hence his "my job is to make it possible for SOMEONE to love you" comment).

Once I even think I told him he didn't deserve me.

None of those comments, however, carry much weight with someone not wanting to be with you. It doesn't rock their boat.

I guess until we revisit each other in May, I won't know if our separation has confirmed for him his desire to be out of our marriage or desire to work on it.

If he honestly decides he wants to work on a marriage with me, it will have to be because of me -- not fear of "failing", hurting the girls,or desire to avoid the financial work of splitting.

If he decides that - I believe I will have to talk with Steve Harley about boundaries and expectations.

My IC is afraid for me that my H will think, "OK, we did the separation, now let's just go back to the way it was."

It can never be the same again. Despite what he thought was work while under MB counseling with Steve Harley, this will require real work on his part or I'm not doing it again.

Meanwhile, I, like you, changed my hair (he doesn't like), lost weight, changed clothing style, put myself under mentoring by a mature Christian woman, took a class, The Art of Hearing God, am doing a Bible study on Song of Solomon with a pastor's wife, connecting with women I met at Every Heart Restored conference, doing home improvements needed for anywhere from months to years without having to suggest, remind, coax, etc. to get them done.

I suppose I would continue to do so regardless of what he decides about our marriage.

I just finished reading, Total Forgiveness by RT Kendall, (spiritual) am ready to start reading How to Stop the Pain, (spiritual) recommended by my IC and also have ready to read Caught Between a Dream and a Job: how to leave the 9-to-5 behind and step into the life you've always wanted by Delatorro McNeal ( job, career, which I have to begin to address) and am considering getting, Staging Your Comeback by Chris Hopkins to deal with the physical appearance overhaul of the "older" woman.

All of this is fulltime work for me in addition to the regular home maintenance and ranch work .

Today my daughter and I moved wood, cleaned ditches, moved gravel to fill holes and create driveway into a pasture. She handles the tractor and I do the hand work. Without her I would get much less done. She is only home for a week and must study and make appts. also.

Hard part for me being alone is the need for help to get these things done. Need the strength of a man for some jobs and projects to get done. So I have to hire help and use funds I would like to save in case I have to live on them myself.

And loneliness. It feels like other than doing chores, my life doesn't amount to much right now. I know I could do other things to "distract" myself from my marriage issues, but I almost feel like that is cheating. I need to address my issues to really get anywhere, not just try to cover them over while being busy elsewhere.

Good for you, 77! For all the loneliness you're feeling, I hear strength in this post. I also see some boundaries regarding what you will and will not accept from your H. Bravo!

Sounds like you are doing lots to pull yourself up by your bootstraps--just keep doin' it, one day at a time. It WILL get better.

Thanks, Rightthere, but it has been a hard Easter break with my girls home.

I believe I am experiencing a kind of divorce without a custody agreement.

Both girls are adults, so they can do what they want, but coming home for a college break allowed us to plan some activities together.

Their father invited them to attend a family dinner his sister put on. That's fine and he told me about it ahead of time. I was not there, of course.

But then the challenges started. I plan ahead, he sits down and then starts to think and realizes things, calls and wants to do something now.

As the vacation drew to an end, I waited to see if he was realizing that they were leaving, he had not seen the youngest (very social with friends) much.

Easter plans were church for my youngest and I, family gathering for my H and the oldest daughter. Then the daughter would pick up my senior Dad and bring him home for dinner with the girls and I in the early afternoon.

8:30 am H calls youngest, "I need to see you to say goodbye. Call me after church and we'll decide what to do together." Now she's gone and we're ready for dinner.

Irks me that I plan and he continues to live in "crisis mode" and even though we are not together, still impacts my life and plans.

When H and I next spoke, I told him it would be helpful if these things could be planned ahead. He said, "I told her to call, and then we'd plan."!!! He doesn't get it, he thinks that WAS planning ahead, but he's not entertaining or keeping to a social schedule.

In our marriage, I would be the one bringing all these necessary arrangements with others to his attention to be discussed and settled. But then I was labeled "controlling" and told that he could NEVER please me.

Now, he has told my daughter that he is flying to LA and taking her to Disneyland next Sunday because they "didn't get enough time together." !!!

This is hard because he never wanted to plan things for our family like this because he said he "never wanted to do anything with you."

Now I get to see him doing impractical outings with his daughter.

And this after him telling me not to spend too much money because we have to pay taxes on the sale of a business this year.

He's taking a week off the end of April to visit friends and attend a concert- all came up quickly on a whim. Now to LA, flight, car, food, tickets on a whim to see the daughter who was here for a week until yesterday.

I'm sure he doesn't see it like I do. I realized, I have to run big expenses for maintenance by him, but he doesn't have to run anything by me -- he just does it!

Kind of feeling hostage-like here.

Also, my girls blasted me yesterday.

It was time to take one to the airport 1 1/2 hrs. away, and the other to start driving to school 4 hours away.

I was feeling like having prayer with them, and thinking how they didn't have the history of family prayer in their background because their father never initiated it (once again, because he didn't want to do things with me.). This made me reflect on the many things they missed out on because of his passivity.

When I brought it up, they told me they did not want to hear it related to their father as the cause. I thought I was doing pretty well, but they feel alot of negativity from me for their dad.

The oldest doesn't want to hear what he's told me in the way of truth, or what the counselors have told me. Says it makes her mad at him, confrontational and want to get away from both of us.

The younger says she still has the same relationship with her dad, but I should "empower" myself and move on.
"If he f@#$#$ you, you should F@#$$ him!" Told her I didn't believe in repaying evil for evil.

I told them that I felt like I had to live in a pretend world if they didn't know the truth about their parents and that I was having a hard time not feeling rejected hourly by that truth and the deception of 40 years.

Too much information. I knew from the get go NOT to make my children my counselors (oddly enough, I learned that from the OW when she lived with us and told me how her mother depended on her for support during her father's alcoholism and how it messed her up).

I did not realize that they were still getting what they did not want and angry that I put them in that spot.

I feel like they are wanting to live in the fantasy now!

But, the oldest said,"Dad is really screwed up right now." So she knows enough.

They both told me they were sorry that this happened to me, sorry it hurts, they love me and want me to take classes, do things, be the strong one even if their Dad can't make a decision.

But, I felt that I had failed them in letting it get to this place.

It is hard to be told by friends, family, counselors - stand for your marriage - a marriage never wanted by my husband and one which he still can't decide if he wants to "commit" to or not yet and also be told - go on with your life, do what you want, need to for YOU.

On his money and with his permission.

Can I not get past the hurt, betrayal and feelings of waste because HE can't decide to do anything one way or the other?

His own sister came to visit me and said, "He will just keep doing what he is doing. He can continue things for a long time. He just keeps keeping on." They admire that in him, but it just postpones him having to actually decide anything!

She thought we should be able to compromise. The family misses me, it seems so weird not to have me around.

I finally gave her TMI and she said, "I didn't know you were dealing with all that!"

So, I continue the roller coaster of feelings.

Thanks for continuing to stay with me.

You know I'm with you, 77. I just typed out a lengthy response to you, and POOF! Disappeared into cyberspace.

Maybe they weren't the right words... Maybe God will give me better ones in the morning.

Hope you can get a good night's sleep. Tomorrow morning, read what you wrote in that last post, and see what you think...what you'd tell someone else if they wrote it.

Peace, 77.

RHW

Hey 77! How you doin'?

I just don't know.
Trying to get things ready for daughter's college graduation Sat. Will travel and stay several days to pack her up and move her home.
Dealing with home maintenance issues before the girls come home.
Trying to raise money to help oldest get overseas to help set up a home for girls rescued from sex trafficking this summer.
Seems like work, work, work.
My H is taking the week off, visiting friends, concert and will show up at daughter's graduation.
When I asked him about a big project he let waiting finishing ( re-pour sidewalk), he said he "forgot" about it.
Just seems so unfair that he has nothing to take care of and I am doing nothing but "taking care of".

Before my girls left for college after spring break. They told me they didn't want to hear about the failings of their dad.
I thought I was doing pretty well NOT venting to them, but guess not.
One expects us to get back together after the trial separation and is discouraged that both her parents don't sound like that will happen.

The other tells me to get "empowered" and all other such feminist and New Age terminology. She told me, "he @#$#@ you, so you @##$% him!" Told her I didn't believe in repaying evil with evil.

It seems like I have the two camps encouraging me.

One is "get on with YOUR life, you can't control what he does, but you can control what you do" and the "we're praying for you and believing God will heal your marriage, hang in there, do what God tells you".

People telling both of us, "If it was never there, oh well, move on and find happiness with someone else."

And people telling me, what he has told you is not true, he did/does love you.

I have people counseling me that divorce is biblically OK, remarriage justified, etc.

I ride the rollercoaster every day.

I can't get over the fact that my husband has never cared for me and the "loves" of his life have been illicit relationships.

I can't get over the rejection that causes me to feel distaste for my body because it was rejected for anyone else, even when I was young, fit, and stacked.

I can't get over how the OW, messed up, dysfunctional, plain and with huge hips and thigs carried more attraction for my husband than me.

I can't get over feeling like the best years of my life were ripped off.

He doesn't have a major identity change to deal with.
He is still seen as a professional in a specific industry.
He didn't have his world turn upside down.
He didn't lose friends or family over his A
His life still operates the same every day.
He still has his income and status, his staff support on the job.
He has free time he never had before and is playing.

I however, am no longer a family supported by my husband.
I have lost my job as wife.
My identity is gone and was a lie the whole marriage - he never allowed me to be his wife.
I have limited income to cover my expenses, whereas he can do what he pleases without thinking about the money it involves.
I walk embarrassed around my friends and family - second class, damaged goods, rejected goods. He is out playing with his friends.

Our agreement of separation will be up May 17.

I don't know if he will even remember and want to get together to "discuss" what comes next.

Sorry to be a gloomy gus - but I am!

Thanks, rightthere, for checking up on me.

I have to stay away from these sites sometimes, it just makes me more depressed.