Hi All,<P>It has been a long while since I started a thread. I try to reply when I feel I have something to contribute, but most of all I just lurk.<P>In my reply to SDS the other day I gave her all the info from this site that Jim(NSR) compiled and sent me (thanks Jim). One of the things that struck me was a quote about getting past resentment.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>An emotional reaction to a painful event fades over time, as long as the painful event is not repeated. (page 154 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Focusing on the present and future can help diminsh resentment<P>My dilema is this...<BR>When I focus on the present and future I live in my resentment.<P>My present is my W is still shacked up with LRB.<P>My future is divorce and starting over.<P>These are really my only resentments, no big deal...LOL...<P>Then to top it all off my STBX thinks we're friends. She told FIL how great we get along. I told FIL that is because I'm not an unmitigated [censored]****. I wish I could read her mind sometimes just so I know if she is really in complete turmoil, because most of time I see her she is her happy-[censored] self...blech!!!<P>So what do I do???<BR>I try to keep all of my dealings with her buisness like. She on the other hand is happy and cheerful, and I'm going give me a break...you suck ladie...you are a huge frikken dissappointment...I want to kill LRB...<P>Sometimes I want to hug her...sometimes I want to punch her...most of the time I am indifferent towards her...<P>As much as I want to I still commit no lovebusters...though I really want to tell her exactly how much she hurt me and my daughter by getting involved in this affair.<P>I also wonder if the reason she didn't come back was due to lack of humility. I can totaly see her running because of that.<P>Will she ever break this pattern of copping out and running when her relationships falter. Her mom did this to her dad and she has spent the last 30 years in therepy. So I know where W gets this behavior from.<P>Enough of my ranting...The bottom line is I stil am angry,and resentful, the difference is it only eats my lunch about 15 minutes a week, usualy right after I have to see her happy-[censored].<P>That's my post...LOL<P>Love you all,<P>Bill<BR><P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Hey Bill,<P>I know exactly whatyou mean buddy! I haven't posted in a long time. I guess its because a: I'm trying to get on with life as a single father of a 3 and 6 year old Daughters, and b: I don't feel I can give much advice since I failed to save my own marriage.<P>Anyway, I know what you are saying about sometimes wanting to hug or punch the stbx. But mostly I'm just indifferent too. Indifference is good in my opinion. It makes the whole process easier.<BR>I'm lucky in a way I guess, I only have to see the STBX once every 2 weeks at drop off time. the sitter handles the rest of the trade offs. But I still have to listen to my girls cry and tell me they miss thier mommy. Hearing them ask why mommy isn't here or telling me they miss her just rips my heart out every time.<P>That is when the anger gets to me. Its not that she left me for another man, s*** happens I guess, but I will never understand how she could walk away from her children for that [censored]. To hear her tell it, I took the kids away from her as punishment for her infidelity, but the truth is she went into court and told the judge that she didn't want to fight over them.(translation: OM has no children, wants no children, and stbx was afraid the kids would interfere with her relationship with him)uuuuuggggggh <P>I sware sometimes I can't believe what this affair has done to the very intelligent woman who I married. I don't know her any more and frankly don't like the person she has become. For the life of me, I get so angry when I think that she could just give up the kids without a fight. I mean, I didn't want to drag the kids through a custody battle, for all our sakes, but I lost what little respect I had for her left when she gave up and walked away. Now every two weeks I get to see the new cloths and toys that mommy buys them when they are at visitation with her (can you say guilt gifts?). But that seems to be the extent of her parenting ability right now.<P>On a more possitive note, the girls are adjusting pretty well, and we are getting into a new routine that seems to be working for all of us. My oldest is still having trouble over this from time to time, but I'm taking her to counciling starting this week and I think (hope) that will help her. <P>The girls seem happy again most of the time (except when they are over tired) and we are really solidifying our bond as a family I think. My 6 yo told me last week she thinks I should date, LOL ( soon after I found out STBX introduced the girls to the OM at his house 5 days after she moved out ).<P>Good luck Bill, I know we are running parellel lives out here some where.<P>Brentb

Hey Bill,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sometimes I want to hug her...sometimes I want to punch her...most of the time I am indifferent towards her...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is my reality too. I could begin a thread myself about the crap I put up with, day in and day out. <P>Yeah, I'm trying to be friends with him, but just like when you have a girl/boyfriend who is impossible to be friends with after you've slept together, this is feeling somewhat impossible at times. <P>When you think about it, there sure didn't seem to be this many in the midst of divorce on the old Harley Infidelity Boards, did there? There must be something in the air, or maybe the water... either way, I am consistently surprised at how many people are here... I would say that misery loves company, but I haven't met one yet who outright wanted to go through this pain...<P>love ya <P>

Hi Bill,<P>Long time no "see"... I perfectly understand what you are going through... don't you wish this was all nothing but a bad dream and that one morning you'd wake up realizing that nothing was true? That the W was still there and nothing had changed but your awareness? <P>For the next 2 weeks or so the W and I will still live under the same roof; it seems that she has accepted to move out so I need to find a place ASAP- she won't raise a finger, she's too busy with her new affair.<P>She too thinks we are friends (would you <B>choose</B> a friend like this? Maybe they belong in an asylum.<P>Don't worry about your resentment, like "the book" says time is the best cure. If you feel that way (resentful, angry, whatever) welcome the feeling, analyze it, feel it, let it go through your system. I found out that the feelings come back stronger when I try to suppress them, and that when I let them flow they eventually go away, when coming back, they're weaker.<P><B>PLUS</B> you (like I) have a daughter that deserves a happy, healthy and strong father.<P>Hang in there, Bill, you'll be alright (no, it's not easy for me to say, actually I feel like s**t in this very moment).<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR><B>Live fully and always learn</B>

Bill, Brent, Alex,<P>Good news, this too shall pass! AT least I hope so.<P>Most of my resentment and anger for my x are gone now. It still is hard seeing her, but she doesn't seem any happy now that when she was with me. How could she be, how could any of them ever feel confident with their new men. In my case, my x's om was married(still is as far as I know)and he left his w when she got older, so my x who is insecure about her looks, is living with someone who dumped an older woman for a younger woman.<P>I too can understand how my x or anybodies spouse could want to leave a marriage, but how can you leave your kids. My x still to this day has not said she wants the kids to live with her. She said because her job interfers(she works straight afternoon and some nights when needed.) I guess I am lucky I can be flexible with my job. I don't know what I would do If I had a straight 8-5 job. Quit I guess, and find something more flexible.<P>My x didn't so that, instead she picked up more hours, so she can see the kids less. And since om works 3rd shift, I doubt she will take a day shift job because then they wouldn't be together either.<P><BR>Guys, you have to just keep working on yourselves. Try the book, "Rebuilding After Your Relationship Ends" by Bruce Fisher. It deals with all of these emotions.<P>In the section on anger, it states that anger is helpful in that it helps you breakoff the remaining portion of relationship and keeps you from just holding on and frees you up so you can grow.<P>I now treat my x as I would a babysitter. She gives me a list when she wants the kids, and if I have something to do on a day that isn't listed I make other arrangements. I ask if she wants the kids. I am assuming that she can't/won't take them and work from there. <P>There is atleast one if not 2 nights aweek when she can take the kids and she doesn't. It still bothers me that she doesn't take the kids those nights, but I guess she deserves some personal life too(don't tell anybody I said that!).<P>All these emotions we are going through are appropriate. We just cannot allow ourselves to dwell in them because our kids are depending on us.<P>HAng in there guys, we can and will make it.<P>God Bless all our families.<P>Bob

I'll chime in too.<P>It is so strange to see all these once good/great moms throwing away their time with their kids.<P>My 17 yo is still having the hardest time with it...<BR>...after every visit with her... he goes through withdrawal-like symptoms.<BR>I wonder how long it will take before the younger 2 have the same problem?!<P>I'm not yet where most of you are...<BR>...not yet at the "indifferent" stage...<BR>...but I see my self getting there... slowly.<P>I guess one other difference is that my W still doesn't want to be friends...<BR>I don't know what she wants...<BR>I still get the 'F... ..U's... and name calling...<BR>...definitely not any kind of "friendship".<P>Our divorce could happen in just 2 weeks time...<BR>...and I thank each and everyone of you for helping me accept(emotionally) this. I don't know how I could have survived without the forum or you all. <P>Jim

Hey, Bill,<P>I can relate, friend. I have been divorced now for a little over one month. The resentments are still there. Definitely not in full force by any means, but definitely still there. <P>I do believe that only time can put this in a better perspective for all of us (sorry, I know everyone is sick of hearing that). I think that once our past begins to be filled by happier and more loving times and memories, it will "push" the pain and anger and resentments further and further away. What is making it so hard on everybody right now is that this pain and hurt is part of our present and most recent past. What time will do is allow us to experience some better times, experiences and memories that will become our "new" present and most recent past.<P>It is so very hard for all of you with young kids that have to have the frequent interactions with your x's or soon to be x. At least I am spared that much frequent interaction and my healing process has been exponentially quicker in comparison to some, I think.<P>The interesting thing is that my x has "come around" some. I am now dating one of his friends. Apparently, the friend has been "waiting in the wings". When the divorce was final he had a talk with my x and told him he was going to go out with me. My x was surpised. He and my x have had a couple talks - one in which my x told him that he(x)felt "uncomfortable" with his friend taking me to a motorcycle event that my x also attended. <P>He has also not finished moving his stuff from my house, so that keeps things a little "fresh". There are some loose ends on the separation of the finances that have not been completed, either. These all require continued, but sporadic, interaction that somewhat keeps the hurt alive. Also, he has begun to introduce the OW to the kids and grandkids. We have all had some great laughs as the kids report the OW as being manly and "butch" - she supposedly looks like a famous butch former female tennis star! Basically, they said she is 100% opposite me in every aspect of physicial appearance and mannerisms. I said - more power to them!<P>Mostly, I do a great job of staying positive and enjoying the people in my life who love and care about me. I wonder sometimes if my x is trying to be my friend, as others above have pointed out. I laughed at ThisAlex's response: Who would choose a friend like our x's????? Not me! We will always have grandchildren together and our respective children whom we have each helped to raise. And, I am closer to my x's Mom than he is. She recently spent 10 days here in Atlanta and stayed with me. I am going to visit her in MO in July. Other than these connections, as far as I am concerned, there is no tie to my x. I treat him civilly as I would any other person, but I have no desire to be a friend. A friend is a person you have a sense of trust in and feel that you can rely upon for certain things. I have neither trust nor any sense of reliability as far as my x is concerned. <P>He is just a person with whom I shared some great times and some awful times. I am hoping that time will help me to remember the best of our relationship with fond memories and to be able to remember the awful memories a lot less painfully than thinking of them now causes.<P>Bill, my best advice to you is to work as hard as you can on finding the day to day happiness and joy in whatever ways you can and with whomever loves and cares about you. If you are living a life that is full and rich in all the ways that you are able to and can, despite what has happened, your heart will find peace and happiness again.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

bill,<BR> YOU SAID:<BR> "Then to top it all off my STBX thinks we're friends. She told FIL how great we get along. I told FIL that is because I'm not an unmitigated [censored]****. I wish I could read her mind sometimes just so I know if she is really in complete turmoil, because most of time I see her she is her happy-[censored] self...blech!!!"<P> Two things:<BR> One I'm there with the "we get along...." bull. My stbx said to her mother "I wish Frank was my BROTHER" WHAT THE HECK is THAT supposed to mean?????? <BR>And two:<BR> My Father (God rest his soul) Always taught me that if someone acts TOO MUCH of ANYTHING, it's an act. So, if she's acting all happy and wonderful in front of you, SHE'S ACTING!! <BR> Hang in there brother. GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

I too am soo frustrated with my stbexH, He also acts like nothing is wrong and really friendly.. I find him to be soo hypocritical that I just want to throw up sometimes. Unfortunately, when you have kids you still have to deal with these jerks!. My H is having an affair and moved out. He sees the kids for dinner two times each week as well as every other weekend and talks to them dailey.. I tell him about school events so he can participate. Is he satisfied with this arrangement.. no.. he wants more.. he thinks that I am punishing him for his infidelity and decision to leave the marriage by restricitng his access to the kids.. this is all my choice and my problem apparently. (I want him to be involved with the kids.. but he never has been before.. he always worked late and weekends.. or took off to go boating or drinking with theguys). I am worried that he will push and push til he gets what he thinks he wants (more time with the kids) and than it will be too much for him and his new life.. than who gets hurt? The kids because they are the ones who get hurt and dissppointed when he cancels. How can I get him to realize that the kids need to come first over his or my needs and that less time with the kids is not a result of anything I have done.. it is just a natural result of his having left.

Bill,<P>I'm sorry to see that you aren't posting with some better news, but its nice to see you anyway.<P>Someone mentioned, "Rebuilding When your Relationship Ends", by Dr. Bruce Fisher. This is an excellent book and has helped me with a lot of feelings as well.<P>The good news is, that this is all part of the process we all must go through and the fact that you "feel" anything is very positive. All of us have gone through that period where we felt "numb". If you stay in that place too long, thats not healthy.<P>According to the book that was mentioned earlier, we must all go thru the following emotions:<P>Denial, Fear, Adaption, Loneliness, friendship, guilt, rejection, grief, anger, letting go, self worth, transition, openness, love, trust, relatedness, sexuality, singleness, purpose, and freedom. <P>We don't all go thru those emotions in that particular order, but we all go thru each and every one of them to heal and grow.<P>I think most of us here on this DIVORCED site were over at the GENERAL QUESTIONS at the same time. (we jammed it up so badly, we got our own site). We all tried Plan A. We all gave it our best. We all had a hard time coming to the terms of the divorce. <P>There is definetly a strange rise in divorces, affairs, and walk away wife/mom syndrome. I personally had bigger hopes for the new millenium . <P>Bill your a good dad and you deserve better. We all do. Someone said it above, it will pass in time. I still go back to taking things one hour at a time. Not because I miss him, but because I don't like the person he has become. Be strong for your daughter.<P>Sending strength, prayers and hugs to all, Dana<P>Ability is what you are capable of doing.<BR>Motivation determines what you do.<BR>Attitude determines how well you do it.<BR> (Lou Holtz)<P><BR>

Brent,<BR>It is amazing how the lust of a relationship can cloud the minds of intelligent people. My W has 2 college degrees. As hard as it is my D is also adjusting to the wreckage of life as she knew it.<P>Sheryl,<BR>I know friend, this is our harsh reality...love ya too <P><BR>Alex,<BR>Good to hear from you. So your W is into EMA#2? Damn...Enjoy the serenity of living single. It can be a time of extreme growth. Give your D all the love you can muster.<P>Bob,<BR>I'm hangin' in. Good to hear that you are gettint over the resentments, it gives me hope. I will check out that book.<P>Jim,<BR>Our voice of balance and reason. I truly am sorry that your stbx is still so combative. I would have thought that God would have warmed her heart by now. Keep doing the next right thing brother.<P>Desiree,<BR>Where did their minds go...LOL<BR>You dear friend are a becon of hope. Your positve outlook is truly motivational. I thank you for your inspiration...I love you friend...<P>Frank,<BR>I like your dad...My FIL keeps telling me to forget her I'll find someone better. He did and for all the money in the world wouldn't go back.<P><BR>Nikki,<BR>Hang in there sister...They tell us it gets better...I believe it.<P>Dana,<BR>I will get that book...another for my library...LOL<BR>Interesting perspective on the boards.<BR>BIL and I were talking about how this generation X puts on value on marriage. My granparents were married 52 yrs and 45 yrs, each dealt with problems we couldn't imagine yet stuck it out and found true love even at the end of my grandfathers lives...actualy more so than when they were newly-weds.<P>Well everyone I'm ready for another day on this journey of life and I thank you each for helping.<P>Love Ya's,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Hi Bill,<P>Well I come with hope that yes, time can bring a kind of friendship. In my case my stbx and I still work together so if we were at eachothers throats constantly one or both of us would be jobless. However, it has taken us 5 years of separation to really find a form of friendship that allows us to interact. I will admit I never thought it possible when I first found out about his EMA. <P>I am astonished at the amount of mothers who are willing to be away from their children for any amount of time. If I had been blessed with children they would be my number one priority. I hope that for the kids sake it's only the fog of the affair that is causing this apathy to be a parent. And that they will soon come out of it and be there for the kids. <P>RWD, Thanks for recommending the book, I think I'll go get it.

Yeah, I think it is pathetic when either parent effectively abandons their child in favor of their other person. How pathetic and sad that type of person is! My H is fightin to stay involved.. so I do not have that complaint.. I have my doubts about how long it will last.. but I will take that one step at a time. A while back he sent me an e mail in which he claimed that he had no choice but to leave the marriage and that his choice was the best choice for all of us (ohh isn't he just a superior being!!!). He asked me to understand how hard it was for him to not see the children every night and know that they were in the next room. You know, I do know that must be har for him.. I do know that he loves his kids. But , this was a choice he made and I do not understand it.. I could never make a choice that took me away from my kids in any way or form! They need me so much at their young stages (5 and 3( and I would not miss a moment of it! So why does he think it is ok to leave... he is so sure the kids will be ok as long as he stays involved in their lives? How can he know that? how can he risk their emotional well being for the possibility that he might be happier in some other relationship? Doesn't the fact that the kids won't be happy as a result of his choice make any difference to him? I do not understand the behavior of a man or woman who leaves a marriage in which there are still young children to love and raise. Can someone explain this to me? Why and how do they get the strength to believe that they are doing the right thing? Lord alone knows thatI am always wondering if I am doing the right thing... how can they be so sure?

I have a question....and this is just a question. Not something I have completely thought through. But I wanted to get your perspectives.<P>Why do we have to be friends with our WS's.??<P>I'm sure like for me, your situations fell out of the sky! Well, they did for my children as well.<P>Op has my H completly controlled. He is in no way, shape or form the man, or father that he was. <P>He came home from this trip with OP and seems to have decided that his "calling" is to do more "important" work (with OP pulling his puppet strings) than raising his children.<P>He is goes back and forth, being mean to me then apologizeing for it. I tell him I need to move forward....he says no, let's talk, we go to a counselor and he is hostile to both of us (me and counselor). I feel it is like emotional abuse.<P>He treats the kids like they are a burdon, keeping him from his more important work.<P>I can't help but feel like I need to be in a "safe" house for a while, and I know my children feel the same way. (they're in counseling BTW)<P>So my question is......if we set things up via a separation agreement and I have custody of the children why do I HAVE to be his friend (ie. talk to him, see him)<P>I know those feelings will change after some time, but even his mother said "you don't have to be his friend...friends don't treat friends this way" <P>Where is the fine line ....forgiving them, loving them unconditionally, yet (in dr. Laura's terms) taking a stand for something. NOt just having the attitude that we seem to have in this society..."whatever makes you happy"...<P>How can I try to hold tight to what I believe is right, without becoming too zealous, to angry, to self rightious!!!!!<P>My kids counselor is totally for making him bear the responsibility of walking out. She thinks the parent with the children does not need to sugar coat the situation. seems to feel it does not help the children, just creates a big black hole for them.<P>Since this has happened to my H and I, my MIL has had a different view towards another grandchild that this happened too. My H's brother's wife did the same thing...walked out....leaving a D. At first everyone sugar coated it......(she was 3 when it happened). Now that she is 11 and still having problems my MIL spoke with her and without bashing her mom, let her know that her Dad did not want this to happen. ANd she began to discuss ways to make better choices..... It was like a weight was lifted off of her......<P>Anyway, I am rambling....I just wanted to know how you are friends, without bitterness, but trying to raise your children to take the higher ground?????

tootrusting, <P>...for me, the reason to stay friends, the ONLY true reason, is our children (even though they are older teens and I hesitate to call them 'children' anymore). <P>Plus, and this is purely fiscal, I want to make sure he helps me with the household expenses and doesn't just run off and hide in another state somewhere, which he has threatened to do. Yes, it's written in the divorce agreement, but does that matter? I'll answer that. It doesn't. If he gets ticked off at me, he just won't pay and deal with the consequences if I find him. He's told me outright. <P>And there is a final reason: he was my H for 20 years and I still love him. I expect I always will. But I gotta tell ya, it's fading. I want to protect what's left, so I'm making an effort to be friends for that reason too. And yes, I get to hear about other women (blech), but hearing about it helps me to make my life decisions. Whenever he tells me about someone it helps me to remember why I'm doing this divorce thing.<P>Hope this helps.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 24, 2000).]

New Begining,<BR>Your response to TT. touched an area that I have been wondering about: <BR>What happens when one or both D persons start dating again? My ex relentlessy works at being *friends* (and then some!), and I feel bad that I have to constantly rebuff his advances at *friendship* so he doesnt step over the line, and we both (all) get hurt again. (atually it's helps me not "step over the line" too ).<BR>How is that you *hear* about these ow? Does he just bring them up in conversation? Do you think your H is trying to create some jealousy in you? <BR>Would you tell him about any om that you might meet? How do you think he would react?<P>This seems like a whole tricky area to deal with if you plan on staying *friends* with your ex, even if you don't it's still gotta be a touchy area. I would be interested to hear how you handle it.

Hi Girlfriend,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What happens when one or both D persons start dating again?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Honestly, it's a tough situation. In one way, I want to keep the lines of communication open, and in another, I want to never talk about this stuff (like girlfriends) - keep it to just to stuff about the kids, etc. But I still care, and I worry about him too. Let me give you an example: My stbx is out boinking women without protection. I have begged him to have an HIV test, especially since I was with him (using condoms) since my clean HIV/STD tests from my one romp in the hay with the OM last May. My sbtx would never have the tests, and it was one of the criteria for our getting back together. I'm afraid he's gonna get together with someone in a moment of weakness that hasn't taken the time to make sure she's clean. And right now, he's seeing a 26 yr. old woman who's been married twice and admits to 'looking for love in all the wrong places'... so, you can imagine my fears for him. Well, finally, this week he did it, which only helps me at this point, not him so much since he's been active since moving out. <P>The next thing I'm gonna say involves me...I'd never do this except for the fact that I am in the middle of my friend Bill's thread. I have met someone else. Nothing physical has happened yet, but I am emotionally connected to this new man. Even though nothing has happened yet, I have told him that before anything does we both need clean HIV/STD tests. I'm not really worried about him being positive, but it just makes sense these days to start with a clean slate. And before anyone reams me for even talking to someone before my divorce is final... please be gentle, I can't take anymore grief right now, and my marriage has been dead for quite some time. However, my point is this: yes, my stbx knows about this man, and yes, he is angry. I'm honestly not sure why at this point - truthfully. I suspect it is like how I feel when I hear about the other women in his life: sad that it's really over between us, worried that he's gonna make a mistake, and yes, a bit jealous. I don't cry over it or anything, but it stings.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> My ex relentlessy works at being *friends* (and then some!), and I feel bad that I have to constantly rebuff his advances at *friendship* so he doesnt step over the line, and we both (all) get hurt again. (atually it's helps me not "step over the line" too ).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess that we all make our own rules about what is acceptable. When David and I first seperated, we tried to be friends, and it just didn't work. I think we both expected that somehow we would work it out and just needed time to heal. The LAST thing I wanted to hear about was the %#@!* OW!!! The second time was easier, the third almost a breeze... painful, yes, but not gut-wrenching pain. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How is that you *hear* about these ow? Does he just bring them up in conversation? Do you think your H is trying to create some jealousy in you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I ask sometimes, "How is it going with particular OW?" or he tells me without my asking when he wants to get a rise out of me. Like the time he told me about spending $60 on dinner for her. Of course, he KNEW that would piss me off... Mr. Won't Spend A Dime On Burger King for me... but this new one, the 26 yr. old, he told me outright. Yes, probably to make me jealous. Didn't work though, although someone will be quick to tell me that it's because my mind is occupied with someone else now. True enough, and dammit if it doesn't feel good. I'm tired of trying to figure out the puzzle named David. Too hard, too many pieces...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would you tell him about any om that you might meet? How do you think he would react?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He wants to know NOTHING about the other man I have met. NOTHING. I respect his wishes and tell him nothing. If he asked and truly wanted to know, I would tell him. I'm not sure if that's the best course of action or not, to be honest. Being a woman, I'm curious more about how these women LOOK than who they are. <P>Well, Lord knows if I've answered your questions in the way you needed to hear... you let me know, okay Girlfriend???<P><BR>

tootrusting,<P>I agree with you. I don't want to be friends with my x even for the childrens sake. She only goes to their events because she has too, not because she wants too. I will not sit with her and see how bored she is.<P>I will talk civily to her(I've been able to do this the past few weeks), but I could care less how her and om are doing, or when om dumps her, who she is seeing. I don't wish any harm to her although I think om already gave her some kind of veneral infection. She is the one that made the choices she did.<P>I wasn't the perfect husband and I had my faults. BUt I was willing to work on them, and she wasn't and she wanted out in the worse way. She chose that,and with that goes my friendship.<P>What kind of relationship she has with the kids is up to her. I do not bad mouth her to the kids and I don't try to keep them away from her. She has chosen to do that herself. <P>She chose herself over her family, specifically over her kids. So she will reap what she has sown.

New Beginning,<BR>Wow. Thanks for the reply. It really is a tough situation!<BR>My ex would never tell me if he was seeing anyone. He was/is a serial cheater/liar though, so he is conditioned to hide any personal information about his life. He would/does, lie outright about all kinds of things.<P>I am certain, since he *dated* all through our marriage really, that he is continuing to see others. You are correct, the thought of that gets less painful after a while.<P>What I am finding difficult is that I still care about him too. A lot. On a level that goes way deeper than "who does what to whom", or "needs", or anything really. There's' something very frightened and vulnerable about him that just rips your heart out.<P>I have begun seeing other people, no one serious, just accepting the occasional invitation out.<P>At first, I had a hard time When H called or came for our son. He would ask things like:<P>H: "so, what did you do today?"<BR>Me:"Oh, lot's of *stuff*. It's been a pretty busy day...<BR>I tried to be polite without going into detail, but eventually H saw flowers: ("nice flowers! Where'd you get those?") <BR>Or the phone would ring while he was here, and it would be a guy. After seeing that he did not seem upset at all. I began to relax about what I said on the phone, or what I had around the house, Ticket stubs, a borrowed jacket, or other things that I've had hanging around, at times, when he showed up.<P>H did begin to call & visit more frequently, and recently asked if I would like to go browsing antique shops with him, (something we both enjoy), so although he seemed not to <BR>react to my seeing other people, on some level, I'm sure upsets him.<P>We both know we have no future together. <BR>("All the Kings Horses and all the Kings Men" could never put us together again!)<P>I declined his invitation spend time with him antiquing, I told him it felt *weird* hanging out* with him, like he wanted to enjoy our family without the responsibilities for one.<P>I told him it was awkward to talk to him at any length, because he hides so much about <BR>himself that there are big *holes* in his conversation. (I always feel compelled to *piece them together* and he gets angry).<BR>I still seem to want to be *let in* to the <BR>places he hides in.<P>he said he understood and left, but he called several times later on, I left the machine on but he left no messages. <BR>Then he started *from scratch* trying to spend ever more time with us in any way he could manage. I asked him why, (again), was he doing this, I told him that my friendships are not superficial, that my friends don't ask me about my life, but keep theirs *off limits to me!<P>He became VERY angry then, saying that he has never felt that he could trust anyone!<BR>That the few people he felt he could open up to, talk to, were shutting him out, (me, in <BR>particular). He said that HE had not dated anyone since we split up. (Rather ironic no?)<P>I too have the same fear of health issues for him that you mentioned. I completely agree <BR>that any persons embarking on a new intimate relationship should proceed exactly as you <BR>have outlined. H has NEVER practiced safe sex and I too worry about that proverbial <BR>*Moment of Weakness* (or more accurately, in our case, many such moments!).<P>NB, I would be SO upset if H threw ow in my face, (like the 60$ dinner deal!). I don't know how you stand that! I'm glad you've begun to spend time with someone who makes you feel good!! btw, I don't think paperwork ends a marriage, I think a mutual decision to end it, ends it.<BR>I like what you wrote below:<P>"I guess that we all make our own rules about what is acceptable"<P>Another good one is:<BR>"Experience is the biggest killer of theory"<P>sorry this was so long, my apologies to Bill also.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 24, 2000).]

Wow...another flaming thread...I had no idea I would spark this kind of replies...LOL<P>I see no real reason to be friends w/XW. Our relationship via our daughter is now been reduced to a buisness partnership. The goal being to raise a well adjusted, intellegent, self-confident child. To that end W and I both agree. Like many buisnesses partners don't necessarily have to like one another they just have to work toward the goal in a civilised manner.<P>When my D is old enough and asks why her mommy and I broke up, you can bet your [censored] I'm going to tell her exactly why. "Your mommy left me for a 17 year old drug dealing painter."<P>I hope that this won't cause resentment between them, if it does that is going to be part of Robin's tab for her actions.<P>Ultimately I want her to see how one's self-centeredness effects the lives of those around her, and to break this pattern Robin's grandmother established.<P>Anyhoo, that's just my opinion...<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

I said it before and I'll say it again...For my sake, I'm glad my H has no contact with me or the boys. I would not react well to his idea of parenting. <BR>Yes, it's sad for the kids, but in my situation, it's better that he isn't around them. At least for now. <P>I was asking my sons the other day how they would feel about me dating. My 8 year old is all for it as long as the man likes to do things with kids. LOL My 10 year old has mixed feelings about it. He thinks that if I would start dating, I would have less time for them. But he also would like the idea of male companionship. I think they would be a little confused about it, but they are starving for male attention, that they would accept it.<P>As for the resentment, I do have some, but only because my H has decided that his children don't exist. I could really care less about his drunken existence and his barfly. I actually saw her yesterday and laughed. One of these days, she'll figure out that he's not the great person she seems to think he is. About the time he beats her face in, she'll change her mind.<P>Mitzi

Well Bill, now you really will have a flamer... I'm #21... but the more I read this thread the more I realize that it's d@mn near impossible to remain friends with the stbx. Mine did something very hurtful today, and I swear, I could've punched him... I was ranting and raving all over the house. I'm trying so hard to be good, to be kind, to not ask for more than I need, even though I've been told by nearly everyone, including the paralegal, to get more money from David. I just want peace, not his money, and he doesn't have that much to begin with anyway! But I can see, after today, how things can deteriorate really quickly once they go downhill - friendship-wise, that is. <P>Stupid fantasy-filled brain of mine thought we could do this... I'm beginning to doubt it now. <P>

Hi Sheryl,<P>You and David will be friends again once all of this is sorted out. Right now I am sure it is hard.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi back at ya, JL,<P>We'll see about the friendship thingy. Not sure anymore if it's possible. Once the resentment begins to build it grows wings, you know? And it's not *my* resentment I'm talking about, it's his. Every time he talks to me it gets worse and worse. It's like he gets mad because I'm NOT giving into his games. <P>Thanks for the howdy, and hope all is well with you, my friend.

I just checked the replies and want to thank everyone for the input. <P>I am really having a hard time...but I don't believe that it is anger that is driving me...I am truly heartbroken, as are my kids.<P>We still have gotton NO reasons.....NO direction. My H comes and goes....he sometimes will be here a lot....he will be nice to the kids...but he is not nearly the connected dad he used to be. In fact...he just doesn't GET it. <P>He talks about teaching our S responsibility and I want to remind him that he shouldn't be the one to discuss responsibility.<P>He mentions that our s should speak up when he wants something and not wait till the last minute.....well DUH!<P>If they are playing outside when he comes and they don't rush in....he says "see..they just want to play with their friends."<P>I want to tell him many things, but I can look in his eyes and see that it is not him!!!! I realize that this once sensitive, caring person is now...self-absorbed....narcissitic...<P>It is heartwrenching to me... I have loved him so..and accepted him....Even now, six months later it feels like a bad dream. <P>Last night at S's BD party he was there, I would look up and feel the warm feeling I have felt when I looked at him all these years. I thought we'd go home and put the kids to bed and talk and then snuggle...which is what we did.<P>I don't think I will ever be able to put my mind around the idea that he didn't see our life this way. I don't know if I can ever get over the fact that I thought he was who he was and he wasnt' and that I thought our life was what it was and it wasn't<P>You know, I accepted and respected my H's insecurities.....I always spoke with respect about him to others...commmenting on what a great H and dad he was....in fact, he was very shy and people usually thought he didn't like them when they first met him.....He could come accross distant. I bridged the distance for him in our marraige and I guess defended him because of his shyness. <P>But you know, that seems to be a pattern in my life....my defending people and thier turning on me!!!!!<P>I can still love him....I can still accept him....I just don't know if I can be a friend to someone who could hurt me and his children in such a way....no matter what.<P>Early in this "possession" when I told him he needed to stop the OP ea he said " put a knife through me then"... I was astounded by that remark.... In fact, it is what made me realize how fantastical this thing really was....<P><BR>I thought to myself. That's how you are supposed to feel about your children......and not your coworker. My H seems to feel more connected to his coworkers and stranger's at work than he does to his own wife, children and family of origin.<P>Thanks for the replies....

The wife took a few days off with her 2nd OP (the ex-ex lover from 20 years ago) for a few days. This OP doesn't even live here but in NYC; right after a fund rising event she organized she went to the airport and from there they went away and the W came back on the 24th- my birthday.<P>The first thing I saw in the morning was an e-greeting card wishing me "to reach peace of mind and heart"... %$#@- I thought and answered just "thank you". I had planned a big lunch with my daughter and 2 of her little friends and then take them to the movies... this was my party. Then the W showed up and wanted to participate and did. She gave me a watch to replace the one that was stolen a couple of months ago (also her gift 11 years ago); I am glad she didn't replace the wedding band, since it was stolen too.<P>Somehow I was uneasy... not glad to have her there... I almost cried when she gave me the watch, she thinks that I was very happy about it, but I almost cried because once again I remembered the old times and realized that every time that I look at this watch it will remind me of her.<P>Friends? What kind of friends can we be if I can't stand being around her anymore?<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR><B>Live fully and always learn</B>

I lurk in this forum from time to time although I'm only separated at this point in time.<P>Two thoughts:<P>1) A Friend is defined in Webster's as: "a person attached to another by affection or regard." It doesn't sound to me like anyone here really has affection or regard for their stbx. You know what? That's okay and it's normal! Respecting them as the father and/or mother of your children is YOUR gift to your child, not a gift to them, and it's how you would/should treat anyone on this earth. Just respect them as a fellow human being.<P>2) I sure am glad I didn't have kids with my H. Sometimes I wish there was something to help keep my Plan A hopes alive (like interaction with kids), but if we do divorce, I'll be glad that there isn't ANYTHING that will keep me "bound" to him.<P>Just some thoughts....<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O

I thought me and my ex could be friends too, especially because I'm celibate. There wouldn't be any of me hoping for something more, and he'd know that too. However, the last time he called me, I asked him why he called and he said he had mail for me or some B.S. like that (which he didn't).<P>Ya know? I just got kinda tired of the head games. If ya want to talk to me, just say so. Wanna see how I'm doing? Maybe miss me a little? Or maybe he felt sorry for me and wanted to make himself feel like a nice guy or something for checking on me. Don't need it. So, when he asked me for my forwarding address, I told him I couldn't give it to him. He said he didn't want me to drop off the face of the earth. Oh really? Like divorcing me didn't just tell me exactly the opposite message? Jeez. Grow up and figure it out, man.<P>Thisalex,<BR>don't cha hate that? That wishing you happiness cr*p? My ex said a couple of months after the divorce "I know you will find somebody who will love you for you". Duh, idiot, that was supposed to him. Guess that made him feel all new-age groovy, though.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 30, 2000).]

Hi all my friends, <BR>I can honestly say I probably have more regard and respect for those of you I have gotten to know online at this forum, than I have for my wive at this moment....But you all know the emotions (love, passion) don't just turn themselves off.<P>I wanted to chime in with a small update. It's good to hear some of you doing and surviving this divorce thing in a decent fashion. No one said it wouldn't suc*. And I'm not even there. I am still in limbo, mostly in a plan B mode, still in contact because of daughter, but wife is trying not to stay connected in any way. But still.. she has not filed for divorce (if she only knew? maybe she does? that financially it would be better for her) nor have I since I have no incentive (according to lawyer; pay more child support legally, lose some custody time with daughter, and probably lose the house). I am holding on for that glimmer of hope that may eventually grow.. of course only after her affair crashes.<P>Maybe it is time for me to move on..but Bill and others, I have gone thru the anger and resentment and friends (not likely after divorce, no thanks) scenario's and it all comes back to just wanting an opportunity to resolve our marriage/relationship. The lack of closure is what has driven me to this point. I still cling to the SAA statement of the betrayed spouse eventually giving the marriage one more look. Thanks for all the positive tones on this thread, even though I don't always have the strength to add, it is encouraging to read from my online "friends".

Almost all of my ex boyfriends and husbands have wanted to stay friends afterwards. I really don't understand why. I do understand why some level of friendship is important for those who have children. But then again, are you really "friends". Ok, civil and nice, but friends? There are very few people I consider to be truly my friend. Those are people I know will stand by me in hard times, the people I turn to when life gets hard. Obviously, ex-s are not one of those people, or else we'd still be together. <P>With the exception of my second husband, my breakups have been relatively amicable and not all that destructive. Still, I would not want any of them as friends.

I partied with the wife last night and the night before. No... not trying anything, just being "friends" (<B>ugh!!</B>); some of the other parties have been business engagements- good excuse, no? <P>Obviously I am calmer now, specially after the most extenuating session with my counselor last Thursday (great woman, really amicable, impartial —a female friend who is also going through divorce had advised me to avoid a female counselor— and compassionate).<P>I could be around her and we basically had a good time while we were with other people, but alone we were rather speechless (what can we talk about without mentioning our situation?)<P>I'll survive this (no, TheStudent, I haven't found "peace of mind").<P>Thank you, Bill, for starting this thread... you were venting but you hit home with several of us.<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR><B>Live fully and always learn</B><p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited June 03, 2000).]

Bill,<P>YOU FLAME STARTER!!<P>I hadn't even realized this thread was still going, although it seems to take a turn on the topic. So I decided I had to get in on it <P>My STBXLRB wants to remain friends WHENEVER he and I are alone. What I think this equates to, is that either he and OW are having problems at the moment, or he puts on an act for either myself or OW. <P>In front of OW, he'd have her believe he doesn't want me as a friend when she is around. He loves to rub her in my face and be nasty in front of her. She loves it too.<P>I like the definition that someone put in about a friend. Guess what, according to that dictionary, I'm no friend of his.<P>I like to think of it the way my lawyer refers to it. We will be intertwined (YUK) for the rest of our lives. At this point in time, its like a business relationship in a way. I really am only going to deal with him if I absolutely have to. And when we do, I dread it.<P>No one says we HAVE to do anything. Once we SAID we were going to love, honor and cherish, til death do us part, so long as we both shall live. Well, as far as I'm concerned, the divorce will take all that back. <P>I try hard to be civil in front of my kids. I NEVER argue with him while my kids are there, I just say "ok", and wait it out, so he doesn't bad mouth me and confuse the kids. I let him know that, he is no friend of mine, and although I wish him no real physical harm, I don't think I'd help him out with anything if he needed it. <P>I would think that its the being friends part that sparks on those "what could have been" feelings, because you have that one day when things go well, then a week later, the ex is pissed off for some reason and they treat you like garbage. THen your emotions are back to, I don't know why I bother trying.<P>So for me, I would say, Yes I am DAMN ANGRY these days. I resent him and his happy little life and he's NO friend of mine. <P>Prayers and hugs, Dana<BR>

Hi Medic,<BR>Ok, back to the discussion from the "piece of paper" thread...<P>This is something that has kind of bugged me for awhile. It didn't use to bother me much before my second divorce, because most of my boyfriends, and even my first husband lasted less than 2 yrs or so. Not much was lost. However, I was with my second H for 8 years. I really hated the idea of losing all that history, so I tried pretty hard to stay friends. However, I just can't do it. Can't stand the thought of him meeting someone new, getting married again, etc. If we stayed friends, then that would be in my face at some point and I don't want to go there. <P>Same thing with my guy-friend. We only dated for a couple of months, but the fact that it followed my divorce only seemed to reinforce my feelings in this area. I was forced to interact with him (in a way) because he lived so close to me and it was awful. Fortunately for me, he either didn't have a girlfriend or didn't bring her over so I was never forced to deal with that. I tried (again) to overcome this thing of mine, and finally came to the conclusion that it is just no use. This is just how I am. Any guy I go out with will just have to deal with the fact that, should he decide to "date" me, and it doesn't work out, that he will most likely be out of my life for good. Another reason I'm not dating...<P>I know alot of it is because of insecurity, which is why I've struggled with it so much. If I ever did have to meet the new girlfriend or wife, then I'd have to deal with all the reasons my ex(s) found me inadequate. I don't want those reminders, so I just cut them loose. <P>After I finish my PHD, I plan to settle down and maybe adopt a child on my own. I think part of the reason I didn't want children with my ex is because, if things didn't work out, again I'd be tied to him forever. Forced to deal with step-mom, step-relatives. Ick. What a pain. Half of the threads here deal with problems with separate households.<P>The supreme court just ruled that a parent has more say than any other person (grandparents included) about who should see whom. That means, that even if some guy is in my life for 10 years, that he won't have a "right" to continue seeing my kids if he decides to leave the relationship. If I adopt on my own, then any man who comes into my life stays there on my (and my children's) terms and noone else's. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 06, 2000).]

Hey TS,<P>Sure make me run around the board to find you. Hey, I'm gonna be 40 next month. I don't look good running and besides I smoke like a fish. Wait, that's not right. I drink like a chimney. Yeah, that's it.<P>For some reason I am drawn to your posts and responses. I feel we are very much alike. Awhile back I responded nastily to one of your replies. I am still sorry for that. I meant no disrespect. It brought the pain I was feeling to the surface.<P>I could see myself in your writings. I don't know if you are insecure or have a low self esteem. You should not feel either way. You are a beautiful woman [no, I haven't seen a picture, I'm talking the inner self] Hey, for all I know you have three eyes like I do. <P>I make up for my feeling of inadequacy by being very outgoing [obnoxious] and overtly friendly. My son always tells me I should not be allowed in public. I guess I must embarrass him or something. <P>The affair really kicked me in the jimmy. Nothing ever bothered me before that. That's gonna leave a mark. I don't know if you noticed but some folks believe that I have a warped sense of humor. First, I was left outside during a rain storm and second I fell down the cellar steps at age three. That's got to do something to the mellon.<P>Poop, where was I going with this? Oh, yeah. I feel so bad that you carry the pain of what you believe to be YOUR inadaquacies around. It seems you have destined yourself to be, shall we say, partnerless for the rest of your existance. <P>You DESERVE so much more. Leave your baggage at the front desk. That's what red caps are for.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Zippy the Pinhead.

Medic,<P>My ex used to call himself Zippy the Pinhead. sniff,sniff. <P>He used to say that he was Pinky and I was The Brain. snarf,snarf (that is the sound that Pinky makes). <P>He also used to do a great Kermit the Frog impression. He claimed he sounded like Kermit on his office phone-mail (and he kinda did). <P>Anyway, the self-imposed partnerless existence. I'd rather be partnerless forever than hop from man-to-man the rest of my life. My friend who wants me to date has all these guy friends she wants to line me up with. Men hit on me all the time and it bugs me. Total strangers have followed me into stores to ask me out. A telephone repairman followed me into a shoe store to ask me out. Oh, I won't even tell you some of the things that friends of friends have said to me (like BBOL, best butt on the lake, among others). I think he thought that was a compliment, but it made me kinda mad that he thought he had the right to comment on my *ss. <P>I have a HUGE insecurity when it comes to feeling like a man could actually love me for ME, and love me for life. Being around ex-s just makes me feel stupid for trying to love again and stupid for believing that love can last a lifetime. That is why I'm not dating. I don't like feeling stupid. Hey, guess that is why I'm getting a PhD. A pattern there perhaps?<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 06, 2000).]

OK TS,<P>Now we are making progress. Sorry about the Zippy thing. I used to call every one else "Zippy" and somehow it stuck to me. My employees call me Zip/Zippy. I don't think they really know my first name. I'll try to drop that moniker for you.<P>Ah, Pinky and the Brain. "What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" You know the rest.<P>Next up, <P>GIVEN: TS is intelligent and physically attractive. [I'll take you word on that. No one ever followed me into a store. I HATE YOU!]<P>PROVE: She is worthy of another persons love.<P><BR>I met my W at the ambulance station. Big surprise, right? She was attractive. Blonde, blue eyed. We chatted. Nothing too deep. "Boy, it's hot out". "Yeah, it is." Her best friend had the biggest crush on me. They both came down to the house to visit on numerous occasions. Her friend didn't have a car. I have to thank a coworker who directed them to my front door. <P>The crush with her friend was fading and I made an off the cuff remark to Val that if she ever wanted a beer and a "boff" to stop by. Yeah, I have been warped for a long time. <P>I will never forget that night. It was when MTV was giving away Jon Bon Jovi's house in Sayerville. I was speed dialing like crazy. Well, the door bell rings and she [Val] is standing there. I look around the corner to see her friend. No one else is there. <P>Long story, short [very few living individuals know this story] we made the most incredible love all night long. Yeah, she declined the beer, but took me up on the "boff" Great first date, huh?<P>I'm not really sure why I am sharing this, other than to say that my life would have been so empty for the last 12 years if we wouldn't have taken the chance. We had an undeniable attraction/connection and I don't believe it's over yet. We are both still alive.<P>I married her hoping that love would last a lifetime. [My second, her first] Hoping didn't do it. If only I would have had the Marriage Builders knowledge that I [and you] do now.<P>Yeah, maybe someone else may have come along to make me happy. I don't know and don't live for the maybe's. I would not trade in a minute of my life with Val. That includes the good and the bad.<P>I'm not sure if I made my point to you or just reinforced the idea that I am a complete and total idiot. You decide.<P>I wish you happiness in the future.<P>Zxxxxx. Tim Don't say anything about the beer and a boff thing, ok?

Your secret is safe with me <P>I don't mind you calling yourself Zippy. Just reminded me of my ex, which isn't always a bad thing. His silly side is what I loved most about him. See, there ya go. Making me remember the good times too. <P>Me and my ex were like love at first sight. Met on a Thursday, he came to visit me a week later. We were inseparable ever since, at least until I decided to go back to school. Our biggest mistake was spending so many nights apart after being attached at the hip for so many years. I really think we both went insane. I know I did.

You know what Student? That's EXACTLY the reason David and I failed too... we were attached at the hip and then never saw each other! <P>I think I wrote a thread about that once, because my freinds would say it wasn't "healthy" to be so close to my stbx, and dammit if I didn't believe them!<P>How incredibly stupid of me!!!<P>Next time, attached at the hip it is!!

Hi NB,<BR>Yep. We did everything together, just like Harley suggests. Even the "yucky" stuff was fun. Grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning. We did it all together. Couldn't even go to the Walmart by ourselves. We saw each other on weekends while we dated, but after we were married, I think we spent one week apart when I went on a business trip one time. That was it. <P>Our marriage was the best during those years. For at least 5 of them, we didn't even have a television. I think the old boob-tube probably ruins alot of relationships too. When we didn't have a TV, we'd read to each other, go running or biking (something active), work around the house, whatever. After we got a TV, it was so much easier to just plop in front of it instead of talking. <P>Another one of my rules. Absolutely never have a TV in the bedroom. If you are not sleeping in the bedroom, you'd better be boffing

Wow! You guys are hitting it right on the head (being attached at the hip). My husband and I are like that and I have been given grief by a friend or two about it. Other then work, we are together all of the time. In my first marriage it wasn't that way. In fact, if I was around him too much he drove me nuts, so I made a point of getting out with friends. TV is another big thing. My ex was attached to it. Every night he'd plant himself in front of it. Now, my husband and I watch the news at 10:00 (if we are still awake) and I can't miss ER on Thursday evenings! He was never interested in ER but when he saw I was he sat down with me and watched it, now we are both hooked. At night once the kids are in bed we call it "our time". We sit on the deck, have a beer and talk. He was even asked if he wanted to attend a 4 day trip in another state (regarding work) and he turned them down! He told me he couldn't do it because he'd miss his sweetie! I like being attached at the hip!

Hey Medic and NB,<P>One thing you two have in common is that both of you think the time spent in your marriages was worthwhile. This seems to be a common thread amongst people who are hopeful about a new relationship someday or at least not bitter about the old one. <P>Me, Nellie, and keridwen all have mentioned that we would not go through this again. What it boils down to is that we don't feel like the time we spent was worthwhile, and that is why we don't see much reason to repeat the experience. At least Nellie and keridwen have something to show for their time... They have kids. Although it would be nice to have kids (and I plan on adopting someday), I'm glad to not be attached to their father.<P>You got me to talking about the good memories, and I did have some good times with my ex. However, I know that I'd have good memories regardless of whether I was married or not. Odds are, I would have spent time with people who would still be around, maybe have my own kids, and I'd be much further along in my career. So, in that sense, my time with him was wasted. It used to make me a whole lot more angry to think about that. Now, it only serves as a lesson not to waste anymore of my time. If I get to feeling mushy or hopeful about someone new, all I have to do is remember that I felt that way before and how stupid that was (for me). I'm reminded that the "fantasy" of love people talk about in infidelity applies to non-married people too. That the fantasy of love exists more or less to trick people into thinking it will last forever, or just long enough to procreate and perhaps pop out a few kids.

Hey Student,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hey Medic and NB,<P>One thing you two have in common is that both of you think the time spent in your<BR>marriages was worthwhile. This seems to be a common thread amongst people who are hopeful about a new relationship someday or at least not bitter about the old one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree 100%. However, re: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I get to feeling mushy or hopeful about someone new, all I have to do is remember that I felt that way before and how stupid that was (for me). I'm reminded that the "fantasy" of love people talk about in infidelity applies to non-married people too. That the fantasy of love exists more or less to trick people into thinking it will last forever, or just long enough to procreate and perhaps pop out a few kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I also agree. And I'm being honest here. I will never again *fully* trust that a relationship will last <B>forever</B>. I *want* it too... and I will do my damndest to make sure it does... but I won't live in a bubble. I will take each day as it comes, do my best, and pray that it lasts. <P>How's that for honesty?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited June 07, 2000).]

HI FRIEND (may I call you "friend"?)!!!!! <P>SMILE, you're on Candid Camera! <P>Yes, I know I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to cheer you up (I'm not really sure if I'm doing it right because it sounds corny, right? ) because I'm worried about you. I hope you feel better soon!<P>Hey, I started another thread! Why don't you go over and check it out? Maybe it'll make you feel better some, you think? <P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/zbucketmouse" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/zbucketmouse</A> is where my page is. Oh yeah, THANKS EVERYBODY FOR REPLIES!!!:) Very much appreciated!:)

Bill,<P>Just popping in to update myself on your post<P>To BonnieSept : I know what you mean about people giving you grief on wanting to spend so much time with someone. In a way, I think some of them, could just be jealous. There's nothing better than being that crazy in love with someone like that <P>To TS, I remember the post that Medic was referring to, thats the one I was mentioning on the dating thread where everyone started arguing. I don't follow all your posts, I don't even know that I've seen one that you have started, I just recall you seeming to have a harsher view on things in the past. You sound hurt and sad right now. Its Ok to feel that way, but its good to see that your opening up a little as well. I agree with Medic, that you shouldn't "beat yourself up" over the past. It sounds like your profession may also frighten you in some areas regarding men. I used to work with the engineers at one of my old jobs (no I'm not one) and I can say, I'd NOT want to date one either. Things will get better, and I still believe we will all find happiness again one day. Good luck.<P><BR>Dana<BR>

I am not sure that the amount of time spent together really makes that much difference. My H and I always spent quite a lot of time together - even after the affair began. Even in retrospect, I don't remember him spending less time with me until well into the affair. If anything, except for the days when he was apparently going off to see her, although we woke up early he seemed less motivated than usual to get out of bed on weekend mornings, and we would stay there sometimes for hours since our kids sleep late.

Ah, isn't it just human nature to say "if only" I had done things differently then...<P>No matter what, there is no guarantees. I could get hit by a truck tomorrow. How do I want my life to end up? What risks am I willing to take to reach my goals? I've taken huge risks and suffered countless setbacks and cutdowns (being a woman in a "man's" profession) to get where I am. The kindness of relative strangers has been more instrumental in my success than any of the men in my life. As a matter of fact, the men in my life have been major impediments. I gave them 10 years of my life. Something I won't do again. <P>It is not just the fear of failure that keeps me from pursuing a relationship. I suppose I could use the cast net theory and assume that if I fished my way through enough men, then I would eventually be "successful" in a relationship. However, my thinking has radically changed as a result of my divorce. That is, the goal itself is not worth pursuing. With every path chosen, goes other paths unchosen. <P>Something very curious happens to me when I'm not in a relationship. All of the insecurities and fears that accompany efforts to please someone else go out the window. It is a very nice feeling. The only times I didn't like my body, my looks, or my brains was when I was in a relationship. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 09, 2000).]

TS,<P>I can't fault your logic...If you can be content more power to ya...I envy that...<P>IF is such a "big" word for only having two letters...LOL<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Hi TS,<P>Been catching up and reading your postings with my usual curiosity. In someways I wish I was your faculty advisor. You seem to think that getting your PhD and having a career in engineering will fulfil you. <BR>Unless you are a far more narrow person than you seem in your postings over the past (almost a year), you will find that you need more. As you advisor, I would advise that to be really "successful" in your chosen field you will need depth in your life. You will need to have companionship and you will need someone to share it with. <P>You don't realize any of these things yet, because you haven't embarked on your career yet.<P>If your career leads to travel, you will eventualy find that staring at a beautful sunset, or mountain, etc alone just doesn't do it. You will find that your triumphs unshared and unremember will not do it. You will find that being a PhD engineer is very rewarding, but it cannot define you. <P>I would advise you about so much. I have advised others of these things and they have found my advice to be correct. To be successful you do ultimately need a life. Even Bill Gates needed a life. <P>TS, I think you are very wise to remove yourself from the dating scene while you are in school. I think that once you have begun your career and have become settled in your life, you will again see that relationships and yes even marriage will be good for you.<P>Your concern that it won't last, is unfounded. All marriages end, some prematurely, but all end as does life. I also think that whether you know it or not, your have learned a great deal about relationships here. I suspect that once you are ready that you will find marriage not to be a chore at all. It will be something you can truly enjoy. After all you did for awhile, until the situation changed and strained it. <P>So TS, do hang on to the celibacy and no dating approach while you are in school. But be open to the fact that your real life will start when you get out. You will be operating in a position of comfort with regard to your goals and ambitions. It will make a hugh difference in your outlook on things. <P>Trust me here, I do know what I am talking about on this one. So have patience, keep learning and posting. Your posts are always very illuminating and fun to discuss. They really are.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi JL!<P>Long time, no talk! I really do like it that you offer me a different perspective. The celibacy/no dating thing felt odd at first, but I like it now. <P>As you can tell, I kinda take pride in doing things differently. <P>I plan on adopting after I graduate. My plans DO include companionship, see? I'll take my kid to see those sunsets, hike up those mountains, and so on. I already am doing that with my neice. I take her for a week every summer. Pretty cool. <P>I didn't use to think marriage was a chore before. That is why I did it twice. I feel differently now. In both of my marriages, I turned into someone I didn't like a whole lot. Even with this guy I dated for a month or two, if you can call it dating. Ick. He recently moved out of the neighborhood and it was a big relief. <P>I know that my world can't revolve just around my job ("It's a profession, not an obsession"). I do about 3-5 hrs of volunteer work every week. I have good friends. As a matter of fact, I'm going sailing with one of them this Sunday. I usually keep my weekends relatively light, no matter what. On the other hand, engineering and my career has been my lifeline all of my life. It (so far) has been the single activity that has assured that I will not be tempted to rely on a man for financial needs. It provides a wonderful sense of accomplishment as well. These are things I've given myself and noone can take away. Even if engineering turned out to be a dud job in the future, my skills and education will be the life raft that carries me to my next career. Ya can't say that for men. Sorry. When they are gone, they are gone.<P>For many years, I felt like these goals were not at odds with a committed relationship. As you've suggested, perhaps it will not be in the future. However, it has been my experience that MOST men consider their wives jobs as second to their own because that is how they are raised. I've "lost" too much time in that respect, and absolutely refuse to put another man's goals over my own. Period. You could argue that I'm missing out on all this "other stuff". The only "other stuff" I'm missing out on is sex. I have love, I have companionship, I have caring, nurturing relationships with my family and friends, who don't request that I sell my soul for them to satisfy their whims. That, in my opinion, is what most men want. That is what I won't give. <P>You seem to be determined to convince me that an intimate relationship with a man is the only way I can truly love or be loved. I'm just as convinced to prove otherwise to you. We do like a debate don't we? <P>Maybe when I'm 60 or so (and my future kid(s) are out of the house), I'll find me some 40 yr old cutie to spice things up. That would be my style <P>Glad to see you are still lurking. Hope all is well with you!<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 11, 2000).]