Looking at your STBX today you see what?????

Marriage Builders

When I look at my STBX today a see a man with talent for his job, drive determination, dedication and a person who will be succesful.But after getting involved and being around other people I realized I am better off today. I will always cherish him. I think he has great qualities, but we don't match.What are the most important things to you in your life?? What do you want out of life? Were you infact happy or going through the motions?

I understand why people say these things after a divorce...we weren't a good match I'm better off now we weren't really compatiblePeople like to feel like they are in control of their lives and that things will always get better. That's ok. There are a few reasons I will never say the statements listed above. Regardless of how good a "match" me and my ex were, I was committed to making our marriage the best it could be. I made a commitment for life, and although I know I made some mistakes (big and small) I was in it for life. There is no way I can say whether I'm better off now, because there is no possible way I could have predicted the future if my ex and I stayed together. I have to say..no..I'm not better off now. Having gone through a divorce has not made me a "better" person. Finding someone new will not make me a "better" person. Maybe it is just too hard for people to admit that divorce sucks, it ruins people's lives, and finding someone new is no guarantee of happiness. I know, a big bummer. Maybe if more people felt that way then divorce wouldn't happen so often.

I think quite often after a marriage dies,we tend to forget what drew us to that person to start. Sometimes their personalities change so much when going through an affair, personal crisis, that they appear much different than what we remember. Perhaps we view them differently after a divorce as our own defense mechanism, in order to not feel as much pain. And, we all change and grow as well. I see the father of my children, I see a marriage that could have been, I see in his eyes pain and sadness that things happened the way they did as I am sure he can see it in my eyes. But, somewhere along the way, you have to look forward, and make a new life for yourself. I think time heals, and I think it also lessens the pain, and perhaps allows you to forgive yourself and find happiness in your new life again. Divorce is a terrible thing. It ruins lives and can be devastating for children. But people have a true instinct for survival. Sometimes you go through the most incredible pain and suffering as I am sure all of us here have felt, and in that respect, perhaps we are better people to have survived it. But only if we have learned from our past mistakes. Life is full of opportunities and being able to go on. Once we have went through the many emotions and dealt with ourselves, we can all find happiness in our lives again. ------------------ Susan

I see only snippets of behavior. I have not gone too far out of my way to be in touch.I see a woman who divorced her husband, quit her hated job and left for europe, abandoning even the dog to her carelessly canicidal parents (car wheel, garage door, sudden illness, practice golf swing--dogs just don't last long over there). For "health reasons" she moved back quickly, and reclaimed the dog.I see a woman who went back to her hated job (albeit on new terms), and at last passed the last hurdles to full membership in her profession. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I see a woman who still owes me money, the title to my car, a signature on our '99 1040, a signature signing over half the stock in my company, among other things. She seems to have no real interest in paying up.I see a woamn who is driving a $650/mo. albatross (with my name still on the note and registration) she spoke of selling recently, but won't consider dealing with me on so that she could have her old car back (in much-improved condition) and defray her debt to me. I have told her in no uncertain terms that she would get a better deal from me than anywhere else. I see a woman who, on her return to town, moved into a building she despised, and I suspect it is because it is located right next to my business address (had she moved into my building, I could have moved out--but the office address I'm stuck with for a while).I see a woman who is still hostage to events in her own past that she feels inappropriate guilt and shame over. She has visited this terrible secret on me and I will have to stand up against all her defenses in order to inform people who need to know it. It is something that must be done, and I can only pray it helps her in the long run too.

There's a reality for me that took place. I realized as time went on what i want in my life. I'm sure everyone has made those statements. I'm sure the other spouse doesn't feel that way because they were left behind.But reality is.... The only person you can change in your life is you. The only person you can control in your life is you.After your marraige started breaking up... Did you try to hold on?? Most do. I left him. I went back. Got treated even worse. Now there was violence in my relationship.I can't change that about him. ..and i will not subject myself to it. I will not subject my daughter to it. I will not tolerate it.I am where i want to be. In your relationship, that you want back...would you want it the same way?

No, not all of us have made those statements.The dumper (whether they cheated first or not) almost always say those statements. Otherwise, they wouldn't be the dumper and divorce wouldn't be so attractive to them.The dumpee...well, if divorce was attractive to them, they would be the dumper, not the dumpee. When I say that I'm not better off now, I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm not making my life the best it can be. That is to be expected and I hope people do that whether they are married, single, divorced, whatever. Having made the "best" out of a bad situation does not mean that it was a good thing. It simply means that people cope. People cope, and I've lived long enough to know that painful experiences leave scars that are very difficult and maybe even impossible to eliminate. I refuse to embrace divorce as some kind of wonderful learning experience. If it were in my power, I would have chosen never to experience it. I don't believe I'm a better person for having gone through it. I've never been raped (knock on wood), but I'm not going to walk downtown at midnight half naked so that I can experience what it is like to be raped and "overcome it".The reason I'm so repelled by the "time heals all wounds" stuff is because it tends to give people who hurt others some kind of license to continue hurting others. Goes along with the "kids adjust" and all that other hooey. Time does not heal all wounds, it just makes the scars less visible and less painful. Sue, I appreciate that you want to be encouraging. This is your first divorce. I think you'll find in 10 yrs or so that there will still be things that haunt you about your divorce. Or maybe when your children are old enough to marry and end up getting divorces themselves perhaps. Glossing over how destructive divorce is will not help. On the other hand, being bitter about it forever doesn't help people either. Maybe there is a happy medium.

Well, I see someone who thinks the world revolves around her schedules, and someone who is obsessive compulsive, i see someone who doesn't know how to communicate, but thinks she can because she is a hs teacher, and can teach math to kids. i see someone who needs to be wanted by the kids, instead of teaching them independence.I just hung up after telling/instructing/ teaching her how to teach our kids how to learn and practdice responsibility, how to learn by doing, how to learn self reliance.none of these skills she possesses, so how do you think she can teach the kids? DUH! she can't. but she is an outstanding teacher of MATH (black and white subject) to other people's kids. the courts would have a hard time believing that I would be a better choice.I also see someone who's world is shrinking, meaning, she is less adventurous, less willing to try new ideas, and likes smaller and smaller things. I see someone who will say anything that comes to mind to make her point, or to narrow the focus of a discussion so fine, that she is always right (in that particular, 0.1% of the time, example.)I see someone who doesn't like her body, but is obsessed with it, and her mood depends upon how she currently feels in the mirror.I see someone who is so into the moment, that planning anything other than a vacation or a party is nearly impossible.lastly, I see someone who complains about everything, thinking somehow that complaining or someone else will make her better.tom

I say "hear! hear!" to everything TheStudent said. People say "She'll be okay" and "You'll be okay" and "Too bad it didn't work out." Well, what is the "it" that didn't work out? A marriage doesn't just die, and a divorce doesn't just happen. People make choices to build up or tear down. Sometimes the choice to leave is a proactive choice (as in cases of abuse). Sometimes -usually, I suspect - it is merely destructive all around.I do not value the pain and scars I must now bear for the rest of my life. Sure I'm a stronger person now than I was before, but what does that get me? I wouldn't need that strength if I didn't have to face adversity. Innocence, once shattered, can never be regained, and the world needs loving, giving, trusting, open people. It would be a hard, cold place if we all were wary and cautious.When I look at my wife I see a confused and troubled woman who is hurting herself far more than she is hurting me, since whatever happens I will still have my self-respect. I see a woman who never escaped from the false guilt stemming from her dysfunctional upbringing, and who will now have to deal with real guilt if she ever comes out of the fog. I see a woman who is frightened and suspicious of love because she does not love herself and does not believe it is possible for anyone to love her. I see a woman who chose to discard her faith and values, and to attack someone who loved her deeply, in her panic-stricken attempt to avoid facing her fears and self-doubt.I see a woman who lost her innocence.

I see the Pillsbury dough boy who does not yet understand that God has not died and left that title to him.Someone who is still angry/ugly/abusive to the woman he said he never wanted to marry but didn't know how to break that news to. And who says he loves his children. Someone I would just as soon never see again. And if an on-the-job accident should take his life, I just pray it happens between now and Dec. 1, 2001. I wouldn't plan it, don't want it, but could accept it should that happen. Otherwise the new w gets the insurance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: I understand why people say these things after a divorce...we weren't a good match I'm better off now we weren't really compatiblePeople like to feel like they are in control of their lives and that things will always get better. That's ok. There are a few reasons I will never say the statements listed above. Regardless of how good a "match" me and my ex were, I was committed to making our marriage the best it could be. I made a commitment for life, and although I know I made some mistakes (big and small) I was in it for life. There is no way I can say whether I'm better off now, because there is no possible way I could have predicted the future if my ex and I stayed together. I have to say..no..I'm not better off now. Having gone through a divorce has not made me a "better" person. Finding someone new will not make me a "better" person. Maybe it is just too hard for people to admit that divorce sucks, it ruins people's lives, and finding someone new is no guarantee of happiness. I know, a big bummer. Maybe if more people felt that way then divorce wouldn't happen so often.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm still in the beginning, but I can't agree with you more!!!!!

Spoken from someone who has been divorced for 9 years and remarried for 8 years .. you do move on with life, kids do adjust, but in all honesty, the pain doesn't just vanish. I still feel pain from the divorce just as I am sure the kids do. My kids have a great/daily relationship with my ex, but .. there are times that they won't have with him that every normal married family would .. such as teaching my 16 year old (male) how to shave (dads job) ... talking to him about sex (dads job) .. yeah, I can do those things, but he probably wanted and wished it was dad doing it. Going to your childs award ceremonies .. they can't look up and see with a smile mom and dad watching them with joy ... they feel the tension, its always there. The kids are happy now and they have great grades, good students, well adjusted, but painful days and memories always pipe up. Its not all the kids either. I feel pain. I moved on. I remarried and love my current husband of 8 years .. but things with him and my first two children (his now stepchildren) aren't like they would be with them and their father. To a degree, my husband feels a "sort" of jealousy that "dad" drops by daily to see his kids and coaches them, etc. The kids see and know that as well. True that you move on, but from one who has been there, its felt day to day the realities of divorce and what it does to you, your family, and your children. It is easy to sit back and say "I am better off ... but we all do have our faults .. I had mine and he had his .. unfortunately, they were ones that led us to separate and divorce ... and I can definitely say I have a decent life now ... but if I could have gone back in time, I definitely would have tried much longer and much harder to hold on and try many more avenues to make things work ... for ALL the things I have seen in these past 9 years that have in some way hurt my children for not having "dad" living with us. I know everyones situations are different, just to say that even thru the happiness .. kids still remember and know the pain of divorce and what it can do daily to them. So can we.

Looking at my stbx:I see a very handsome and very intelligent man. I see a man who doesn't seem to know exactly what he wants or how to obtain it. I see a man who thought leaving would give him peace and happiness, but remains only content and unsure of his decesion. I see a man who needs to stop running and avoiding his feelings and deal with them.I also see a stubborn man, with pride and an ego that will never allow him to develop the true potential that is in him, if he continues on this same path.I see a man that I still love and will always have a specil place for in my heart. ------------------ God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.lady_divine77@yahoo.com

I see a beautiful, intelligent lady who has decided not to honor the promise she made to me 15 years ago, so that SHE can be happy. I see a mother who is taking away a stable home life from our son so that SHE can be happy. I see a confused little girl throwing away a lifetime's worth of possibilities and destroying my life so that SHE can be happy. A very small part of me hopes that she is someday, but only a very small part, and it shrinks a little every day. I see my STBX as a completely different person than I married.Divorce is one persons easy way out. I never in my entire life imagined I'd ever be here today. I recognize the mistakes I made, and did my best to change for the better, but the decision had already been made. I see someone making a very serious mistake, and I feel a little sorry for her.------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited January 03, 2001).]

I see someone whose face is familiar but whose personality is completely different except for a few minor details. I see a monster that must have been lurking inside my husband like an evil jack-in-the box waiting for the opportune moment to reveal himself.

I too see a different person than who I thought I'd been married to.This one is selfish, lacks loyalty, lacks commitment, and thinks of his needs first and foremost.This one hopes his actions won't destroy our children, but knows deep down the scars he's created.This one knows he is the one who gave up. This one quits when the going gets tough.This one tells me he has already gotten involved with someone else to avoid being alone - this one has forgotten love is the important element in a relationship.My dad keeps telling me to stop looking at my stbx through "past-colored" glasses and see him for who he is now. Great advice - I wish my heart would listen.

I see my wife...A woman who is so sad and has been for so long - even before she met me.Someone who feels that I "let her down" through my actions and words.Someone who does not know "who they are" or "what they want".Someone who is so beautiful inside but is so frightened at the same time.I see the woman I want/wanted to be with my whole life. I saw her faults before we married - I knew she would not just change - so I loved her "in spite" of her issues. And I still do.I see a confused woman who does not know what is right or wrong - who just seems to be lost.I wish there was a way that I could say to her that I will always be here for her, WITHOUT her looking too far into it. For I truly believe it.I see a sorrowful reflection of a beautiful love we both once shared....Mike

You know what is funny? This very subject hit me square in the face this weekend. After my stbxH came home from his vacation with the OW,it was like I was seeing him with new eyes for the first time, and I was surprised to discover that I did not really like him all that well.Now, I don't want to talk ill of him or drag him through the mud--it's just that for 15 years I was utterly and solely devoted to him, and I tended to overlook some his "faults" to give him the benefit of the doubt and keep on trying. Now that he has left though, and since he was gone for a period close to 2 weeks (and my life was peaceful then), I have suddenly seen some of the qualities I was willing to overlook, and it isn't pretty.I'd have to say when I look at my stbx now, I see a man who has low self-esteem, who is angry with himself and his life, and who does not have very much joy AT ALL! It's kind of sad!CJ------------------ Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Well, here we go again....It was NOT my intent in my post to "gloss over" the pain that divorce causes..just the opposite. It is destructive, cruel, unforgiving, and a hard lesson to learn. And NO ONE should have to learn the lesson. I was married 17 yrs, and was planning on this being a lifetime commitment. But, having said that, there has to come a time when rather than looking backward, you have to look forward. Otherwise, the regrets will ruin your life. We don't have control over another person. We cannot make their decisions for them. We have to accept our responsibility for the demise of our marriages, do our best to save our marriages, and if the other person wants out, then make sure we have done everything possible and "let go". I mean that in a way that allows us to move on, not just "give up" when things are tough. Otherwise, after the second time of his affair, I would have kicked him out, and said oh, "I just want out."I will certainly look back on this experience and wish to God I never had to put my kids and myself through this. And, I believe, when the time comes, my X will have those same feelings. But, he will never come back, and have to be the best I can be to raise my kids. A healthy and happy life is important for me, as well as them. I refuse to allow myself to feel self pity about it all anymore. I did it for over two years, time to move on. ------------------ Susan

You sure can tell the ones here, who are still bitter and upset. You can see the ones that still want to treasure but are moving on.ME?I see a man with potential, drive, determination, caring, selfishness, deep rooted anger, and 2 faces. Each fighting with each other not sure which one will surface. Sometimes i see the boy who is scared and worried that he isn't impressing enough, or living up to standards. I see someone who will forever be in my heart and can not ever be replaced. Nor do i want him to be.But i am accepting that we have different issues and leaving was hard VERY HARD. But very much a necessity. Realizing you can't be with the one you live is a very difficult thing to do.

Marriages ending are not a good thing. I believe everybody can testify to that.But realizing what brought you to that point is impowering! Working on self improvement is self-growth. Not being bitter and angry is enlightening and lifts a great weight off your shoulders.Yes people make mistakes. PLEASE the people at this sight that never made a mistake by all means speak up. Because you would be the ideal spouse.God accepts that we make mistakes, he just wants for us to better ourselves and grow within him.Cherish everyday, and remember your loved ones hold them tight.

GDP said, "Well, what is the "it" that didn't work out? A marriage doesn't just die, and a divorce doesn't just happen. People make choices to build up or tear down. Sometimes the choice to leave is a proactive choice (as in cases of abuse). Sometimes -usually, I suspect - it is merely destructive all around."I completely agree with GDP. When I hear people talking about divorce (especially the ones who chose divorce) they tend to believe that their choice was somehow unavoidable or for the best. It is not "bitter" of me to believe that there are very few marriages that warrant a divorce. Sue, You have mentioned more than once that both you and your ex-husband are sad about what happened. So, what is keeping you from reconciling your family? My guess is that you are comfortable in your new relationship and the fear of trusting your ex is too high. You have made a CHOICE not to reconcile your family for whatever reason. True, the fact that you are divorced now is in the past as well as mistakes you made in the past. However, your ex is not recommitted to someone else and neither are you. Your life is not over, therefore, as long as you both live you still have the opportunity to reconcile.If both of you understand that mistakes were made by both, then what is holding you back? The reason why I'm so hard on you is because I believe that you, like my ex husband, beleive that it is easier to start with someone new rather than face their fear.My ex is not remarried. Heck, I'm not even dating. The only reason he has not wanted to reconcile (IMO) is because I know him too well. He knows that as long as he is with me, he will have a harder time glossing over his faults. With someone new, he can tell his story over again and he can pretend that our divorce was my fault.You can call it moving on. That is ok. It is your life. However, you make decisions everyday that affect you and your children. I understand that you would have a very hard time trusting him. Maybe I don't know the whole story, but it seemed to me from one of your other posts that your ex is remorseful and regrets his part in things. Sooo, I'll answer the question posed in this thread...What I see is a man who is afraid to look at his failures, and in his desire to "move on" he is hoping that his fears and faults will disappear. I see a man who believes that finding someone new will make him happy.I see a person who believes that love is about feelings and not actions.[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: Sue, You have mentioned more than once that both you and your ex-husband are sad about what happened. So, what is keeping you from reconciling your family? My guess is that you are comfortable in your new relationship and the fear of trusting your ex is too high. You have made a CHOICE not to reconcile your family for whatever reason. True, the fact that you are divorced now is in the past as well as mistakes you made in the past. However, your ex is not recommitted to someone else and neither are you. Your life is not over, therefore, as long as you both live you still have the opportunity to reconcile. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You could have been speaking to me. I believe I have come back on these boards because my XW's return to town (and as much as possible to her old life) unsettled me. I don't know her mind now, but I do know that she made it clear to me at one point that she was hurting too, and we hugged. It may be that what blocks our reconnection is my new relationship. It is a relationship that did not begin, of course, until my marriage was over. But although in a vacuum I would want it to be a lifelong marriage, I have this other unfinished business. When my XW divorced me, she held open that I might have another chance if I "got my sh*t together" ... meaning she wanted more achievement out of me professionally. I was home based, making essentially as much as her, and doing all the heavy housework too (she couldn't due to arthritis). I was depressed, alone most of the day, etc. She was not there for me sexually (sometimes her brother was staying in the next room, other times she had pain that prevented it, still other times she just didn't want *me*). If you want the details of how this all started, they're right here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html</A> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If both of you understand that mistakes were made by both, then what is holding you back? The reason why I'm so hard on you is because I believe that you, like my ex husband, beleive that it is easier to start with someone new rather than face their fear.My ex is not remarried. Heck, I'm not even dating. The only reason he has not wanted to reconcile (IMO) is because I know him too well. He knows that as long as he is with me, he will have a harder time glossing over his faults. With someone new, he can tell his story over again and he can pretend that our divorce was my fault.You can call it moving on. That is ok. It is your life.Sooo, I'll answer the question posed in this thread...What I see is a man who is afraid to look at his failures, and in his desire to "move on" he is hoping that his fears and faults will disappear. I see a man who believes that finding someone new will make him happy.I see a person who believes that love is about feelings and not actions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sometimes without feeling any warmth from your significant other, it's hard to take action.I don't really want to move on. I am getting help for my problems, and coming out of them. I did form a new relationship, however. I have been alone for long periods in the past and I don't like it (the new person is great--just what I need in very many ways). I was an only child and I'm not by nature a social butterfly. I live in a town where there are few people with backgrounds in common with me, and I'm not in a good position to move right now (ironically, if my marriage hadn't been breaking up, I could have moved; and now if I really cranked on it I could [witching date is sort of early March--May 1 is the real date, it's hard to explain, but it would be expensive for me to arrange this and still uphold duties to clients at any other time of the year], but since new GF is based here, and XW is here, what's the point?). XW originally wanted to move out of this town to a town more like our hometowns--ironically, she does have a lot in common with the backgrounds of the people here ... it's just that her own hispanic background is sometimes a bit uncomfortable for her, having grown up in a town where that was a vanishingly small minority. There are towns near here with a much more comfortable balance for both of us, and we at one time were looking into going (but my timing constraints bothered her at a moment when her career was very uncertain, and she broke with me just about then--took several months for me to get it through my skull that what I thought was a temporary anger was actually the cord snapping).I think I've been pretty open about my faults, and what I'm trying to do in order to correct them. But I don't have much tangible evidence to show the XW, and I'm afraid of rejection if I attempt to reconnect with her. As well as angry still. Also, my psychiatrist developed a negative opinion of her over a couple of encounters, and thinks I should steer clear.I would accept whatever pain is coming to me. What I would not do is give up my business and thrust myself back into an uncertain job market (as she would want) when the things *she* put me through had a lot to do with retarding the growth of my business, and even so its growth remains sufficient, especially if I am able to run it in peace (and I don't call the time with her brother day trading in the next room, nor our time together but at odds, nor the last six months away from her "peace"--I call the latter agonizing withdrawal). I have a lot of advice for other people, and I hope some of it is even good (perhaps not genius, but at least I'm not too close to the situation). But I am just so friggin' lost as to how to proceed now, especially realizing that my XW may still be hurting (or not) and trying to reconnect (or not), and knowing that if I do try I will hurt my new GF. I have the unfinished business I *must* clear up with the XW, and interaction is *necessary*. But I have no sense of how to move forward with any sense of serenity.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 04, 2001).]

Sys, Hope you don't mind me abbreviating your name. I always have to look back and see where all the 'p's and 'y's go. Maybe you have another abbreviation you like better.I don't want anyone to get the impression that reconciliation is the ONLY right path. I do think that it is the ideal path, but all of us can only handle so much. What I DO want people to consider is that life is about choices. There are very few things are are impossible, IMO, as long as both people want to keep trying. What is hard for people to admit is that they don't want to keep trying. They want to beleive their commitment was unwavering, but the fact that they have stopped trying is, by definition, proof that it is not unwavering. The fact that their commitment is not unwavering is completely forgiveable. However, it is dishonest to say that reconciliation is not possible and that the ONLY choice is to move on. The only honest thing to say is that one or both people are not willing to make the changes to MAKE it possible. Even those conditions change over time. It was my ex's choice to divorce, thereby removing the possibility of us being married right now. It is his continued choice for us to remain apart. I have told him that I am not dating and that I wish to reconcile. The only condition I placed upon our reconciliation is that I intend to finish my PhD and will not move until that is completed. Perhaps if I were willing to quit my school, then he might want to reconcile (even though he has never stated that). In that case, I will have made the CHOICE to place my education over reconciliation. Notice that I have not placed any conditions upon him. He has never expressed a desire to reconcile, so I do not have the opportunity to realign my life with his. Well, I suppose I could, but then I might be considered a stalker [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

He did call me once and said he wanted my new address, but he has never exercised his priviledge to use it. He told me once that he might want to get back together after I graduate. I know he is certainly not holding his breath, and neither am I. I'm celibate now for my sake, not his. I respect that you have put alot of thought into reconciliation. You seem to be aware that your choices are affecting the possibility of reconciliation as much as her choices are. To all, I'm pretty hard on some betrayed. Actually, if you look at my posts, you'll see I'm hard on anyone (betrayer or betrayed) who makes excuses for their life choices. I'm suspicious of some betrayed who say they have done everything they can do to save their marriages, especially when they are ever so quick to shut the door behind them by quickly finding someone new (either before or after a divorce) or hustling through the divorce paperwork. Mostly because my ex (IMO) did not make an honest attempt to save ours. It was mostly him having me jump through hoops to prove my love for him, which I willingly did in an effort to regain his trust. He did little or no introspection to consider what he did to hurt me. When he did finally admit that he had hurt me a great deal, he didn't have the courage to stick around and clean up the mess he too had made. He still doesn't, unfortunately. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: I'm suspicious of some betrayed who say they have done everything they can do to save their marriages, especially when they are ever so quick to shut the door behind them by quickly finding someone new (either before or after a divorce) or hustling through the divorce paperwork.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I reached out for a new relationship because I felt so small and unvalidated after my divorce (and that one was a bust--I'm now on my second). And I at least told myself I cooperated on the divorce paperwork only to avoid creating more resentment and anger. I actually seriously considered contesting that the marriage was "irretrievably broken" but my research indicated that from the legal standpoint it was pretty much of a dead-end ... probably wouldn't even get a hearing on that issue ... the mere allegation alone by one spouse being enough to do the trick. So I concentrated on *not* taking a screwing in the dissolution agreement. Succeeded there, at least (even if I can't seem to get it fully carried out).I did not do *everything* I could in order to save my marriage (or perhaps I could not do everything that was needed--I have a hard time with that distinction). I would not sacrifice my own judgment about what career path would or would not work for me. I would not give up my autonomy. Perhaps I couldn't explain myself well enough, perhaps I was actually in the wrong. Whether this was pride, inertia, narrowmindedness, or a correct position is something only time will tell. But *she* couldn't take it, so we parted company.

Maybe I'm one of those persons Looking Ahead referred to when the comment was made that you could tell who was still bitter. I've put a lot of thought into that over the years and I don't think I am. I, personally am dealing with a man who is vervally and emotionally abusive to me in front of our children. And I see him as someone I don't want/need in my life - even though the children need him. A few months ago, during one of his ugly bouts (I think he's got a mental problem, seriously) I told him that I felt his goal in life is to make my life hell - and he agreed. When you have been as vilified as I have been, it's really hard to see much positive about the person who took from you your financial, emotional, and social stability.So, I have to work my buns off to regain it. Have accomplished the emotional stability and feel better about my social status as a divorced woman. Finances, that's a different matter but I'm working on that.I don't think I'm too badly scarred. Don't think I'm too angry. Although I don't know that I'll ever be totally "over" what he did - mostly to the children since he has admitted he thought they might be bandaids.I just have no use for him. He's not nice to me!!!!!!!!!!

Sys, Ok. As long as you can admit that. What is hard for me to understand is when some betrayed initiate a relationship quickly after a divorce for the same reasons you have mentioned (wanting validation, affection, etc.) yet they have a hard time understanding why their wayward spouse has done the same. I hope your new girlfriend understands that she is "just what you need right now". I think key word there is "right now". One reason why I'm not dating is because I don't want to be used to prop up someone else's self-esteem and I won't use someone else to fix me either. I don't plan on dating again until I'm squarely on my two feet and feel like I have something to offer....not just a sponge sucking the life out of another person because I need healing. Even then, I'm not even sure I'd want to date. There are just too many others out there who would love to suck me dry, and would if I gave them the opportunity. That is what my ex did. I'm sure that when he married me, all he was thinking about is what I could do for him. I seriously doubt he ever questioned himself too deeply about what he was willing to contribute to the relationship or put much thought into what my needs might be. I've got a long ways to go before I can honestly say I'd have much to contribute to an intimate relationship. Oh well. I've got lots of other stuff to keep me busy in the meantime.

TheStudent,We don't always see eye-to-eye here (which is a good thing [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

- it is always good to hear opposing views), but here I do tend to agree with you. So many people do rush out to try and replace what they are missing in their lives once a spouse leaves. And that is fine if that is what they want. But just like you state, if they do start a new relationship before they are past their marriage (before or after divorce) then they need to admit that "no they did not do everything they could to save their marriage". They did what they felt was necessary and prudent. They are not wrong for what they did, but they have to stand behind their actions and not do one thing then say another.My wife is gone, in all sense of the word. There have been no real positive signs to speak of, other than we can now communicate at least as "friends". And I'll be 100% honest, I miss her so much and I miss so much the feeling of being "loved" by a girlfriend/wife/significant-other. But I am not out there "looking" for a new relationship. My faith has been my saving grace (excuse the pun). I have put full trust in God's will - whether it be for my wife to return or for me to find another (or for me to be alone for a while). Sure it is nice to "look" when I go out, but I truly believe that if God believes someone else is better for me out there, she will just "show-up" in my life.I have not given up hope for reconciliation, I have done one better - I put it in God's hands. By doing that I am no longer trying to control the situation - thinking what to say or write to her or do, or any of that garbage. It all ended up being the "wrong" things in her eyes anyway. All I was doing was hurting myself in the process.I relate it to friends and family this way: If my wife had a terminal disease or was sick in some other way, would I just walk away from her? Even if she became dillusional? No. Well in my mind (and in many other's opinion) she is somewhat "sick" - here we call it "the fog", right? So if I believe she has issues to deal with (like a sickness) then shouldn't I still be standing by our marriage? At least until a point where all hope has dwindled like sometime after our divorce?Finally, as Sisyphus stated in his post (no offense meant) he has already been through one relationship. For him or anyone in our situation for that matter, it may have been good/bad/whatever, but what about the other girl/guy that they started dating? Was it fair to them? Maybe this new girl/guy viewed the new relationship with stars in their eyes only to be crushed by the baggage of their new partner. In a sense you can "chalk up" another victim to the first divorce, because you may have not be "ready" for a new relationship....My lawyer calls it his "2 year rule". Not to get involved with anyone exclusive for at least two years after the divorce is final. He said that he just sees too many repeat clients that went from one marriage, right to a new serious relationship that turned into another marriage and then ANOTHER divorce....Mike

Yes Student, both of us have a lot of remorse. But he does NOT want to come back. He has made that very clear. The door was open for him for two years. He chose not to come back. In fact, he moved to another state, so now his kids hardly see him, though he does call. You seem to think that because I want to move on, I was not committed, or didn't want to work hard on my marriage. I can assure you I did. You have no idea the pain involved when there are kids because you don't have any. But just take what you felt and add to it ten fold. And then everytime you look into their eyes you have to think about it. It is a constant reminder. And your personal comments about them divorcing and my lack of commitment is totally uncalled for. My x had/has every opportunity to make things right. He does not want to. I will always look back and wish it could be different. But I have to remain the steady rock in my kids lives, for they don't get it from their father. For me to live in a limbo state, feeling depressed about it does not help them. I did that. ------------------ Susan

What i meant by being able to tell who was still bitter is that you can feel it the words when reading. BUT i'm not a professional in that area so...... forgive me if i offend. Sometimes i read these posts and you can feel the love and compassion and other times the anger and resentment.I still treasure my ex but it has taken a while for me to understand that i do not have to feel bad for ending my relationship. Which i do not. I prefer life over marriage and my safety as well as my childs safety was diffently an issue with my ex. I would rather been a divorce statistic than a murdered wife statistic.

I guess everyone has strong reason's for being here. I can respect it all. I just know that some people don't mix. You can not honestly tell me that everybody you met there is always harmony. Some people's personalities just clash.My ex and i were together for the wrong reasons. We did it for our daughter and quite honestly we both see this now. He felt the obligation to stay and i fooled myself into thinking we could have everything.I forgot along the way that i had changed into something i wasn't. Even in spending time with him afterwards with all his pleas, he can't rise to the person i want in my life and quite frankly i do care for him on an incredibly high level. But i don't blame him for anything life is too short to feel angry with him. I hope that he's happy with what he has chosen. I wish i hadn't of spent time with him though because over the last year i lost more respect for him because of what he put me through and the lies he told. Especially when he came unglued and started hitting me. This is why i say it's for the best and we don't match.Last time i checked i am not a punching bag. I deserve to feel safe in my home, i don't want to be nervous and feel i have to defend myself or exit quickly because i'm afraid of what comes next.I expressed this to him.... he laughed and told me he'd never hit me.The jokes on him he already has on several occassions. I guess he meant that day.But angry nnaah.... life's too short to be bitter.

My x wanted out, I would have stayed in, he didn't give me that option, I was powerless over the situation, so we ended up divorced. It was a quick divorce, I dated someone else in the divorce process shortly thereafter and we both knew all the risks, the relationship is now over, I am now not dating. These were all choices that I made. I could have made other choices, but I didn't. I don't consider myself a bad person for the choices I made. I did what I felt I should do at the time. In some of the posts here, there seems to be hostility towards those who make these choices. I'm not sure why. As to the original question:I see a man who gave up, who was unwilling to work anymore on the marriage and took the easy way out and feels very guilty about his decision but still thinks it is for the "best".I see myself as someone who tried to change his mind, but chose to move on when I believed that there was no chance for us. Was that the right decision? Who knows. But, it is the decision I made and I don't regret it. [This message has been edited by 711 (edited January 04, 2001).]

Sue, Well said!tom

It seems to me that there are some important points that may be getting lost here.First, I don't believe all reconciliations are necessarily a good idea. I suspect that there is a big difference between a relationship in which one partner has always used and/or abused the other, and a relationship which was once good. In the former case, I think it could be argued that there was never really a marriage relationship in the first place, and thus nothing to restore. (Of course, it may be difficult to look back objectively...)My wife and I had a happy marriage for years, and I too have used the analogy of my wife contracting a disease as a guide to discerning the right course of action for me. (I used Alzheimer's disease. Is it right to walk away if my wife cannot remember who I am?) When I made my wedding vows they specifically accounted for the potential (indeed the expectation) of change, and it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of situation that those vows were intended for. You don't need the vows to keep you together when everything is going beautifully.A second clarification that may be helpful here involves the belief that it would be easier to start over with someone new rather than go back and clean up the mess. To some extent, I think that that belief is correct! It is easier. Working on a marriage, particularly a broken one, is not easy at all. The fallacy comes in because it is not actually possible to start over. The fact is, marriages don't have problems. People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on.One last point I would like to make involves the idea of "doing everything possible" to save a marriage. Remember what a marriage is! It's a partnership. There are things you can do to keep a spouse from leaving, at least for a time, that in the long run won't do you or the marriage any good. In any marriage, it is necessary to make compromises in what you do. But you should never have to compromise who you are.

The Student and Sue,I do have children - rather a lot of them as a matter of fact. And I see their pain everyday. I saw their anguish when I told them that in 90 days the divorce would be final - even though they knew in advance that would most likely happen, it did not lessen their pain. Limbo would have been ok with me. The children certainly would have preferred it, and I would have preferred a 30 year separation to a divorce. I worry a lot about whether when they grow up, they will think that running is the thing to do if they are feeling unhappy. I worry that about what they have learned from this - for one thing that your financial problems can be alleviated by finding someone richer, and that responsibility for raising or caring about your children can be so easily discarded. I worry about a tendency toward depression being inherited. But perhaps I need not worry about them leaving a spouse, for most of them are adamant about the fact that they will never marry. Shortly after my H left, my son said that he would never marry because he did not want to risk doing to his wife what his father did to me. I worries me that already he seems to feel like people have no control over whether they hurt others. It sounds so much like what his father said - "I can't help my emotions." There is no positives associated with divorce. It produces nothing but destruction, destruction that spreads through time and space.

I agree! There are no positives about divorce!

First, I don't believe all reconciliations are necessarily a good idea. I suspect that there is a big difference between a relationship in which one partner has always used and/or abused the other, and a relationship which was once good. In the former case, I think it could be argued that there was never really a marriage relationship in the first place, and thus nothing to restore. (Of course, it may be difficult to look back objectively...) People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on.One last point I would like to make involves the idea of "doing everything possible" to save a marriage. Remember what a marriage is! It's a partnership. There are things you can do to keep a spouse from leaving, at least for a time, that in the long run won't do you or the marriage any good. In any marriage, it is necessary to make compromises in what you do. But you should never have to compromise who you are.[/B][/QUOTE] I like how this was stated. Thank you. VERY valid points. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000: Finally, as Sisyphus stated in his post (no offense meant) he has already been through one relationship. For him or anyone in our situation for that matter, it may have been good/bad/whatever, but what about the other girl/guy that they started dating? Was it fair to them? Maybe this new girl/guy viewed the new relationship with stars in their eyes only to be crushed by the baggage of their new partner. In a sense you can "chalk up" another victim to the first divorce, because you may have not be "ready" for a new relationship....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wouldn't call her a victim. She approached the relationship with her own hurts in her heart, and her eyes wide open with respect to what I had just been through. She had her own set of needs that I was able to help her with; and a surprise (like, hey, I'm a shaygitz for the umpteenth time! thanks for not telling me upfront!) or two for me that ultimately caused it not to work out.The two-year rule may be the ideal in the absence of other relationships ... but I also think new relationships can shorten that time considerably by their mere existence. Those relationships, however, should not be with anyone who doesn't have a clear understanding of the risks.If you're operating a nuclear power plant, you go by the book; but people are different, and have free will (unlike radioactive materials). It could be two years before the level of relationship radioactivity is safe, it could be two days. I would say the rejected spouse should start meeting new people right away; but exercise great caution before jumping in too deep. And be sure what's happening with the rejecting spouse before letting things progress too far on the new front. If you think they're a chance of them coming out of the fog, don't start up your own fog machine just yet. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: I hope your new girlfriend understands that she is "just what you need right now". I think key word there is "right now". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Caught ya! I never said "right now". I said "in very many ways". This one was much better-considered. And she too is aware of the risks. While she has no desire to lose me to the XW, she and I have discussed at length that 11 years of history and commitment *could* trump what we have built, if my XW were to come back into the picture. People face obstacles and risks all the time, and outcomes are never certain. She and I consider it a risk worth taking. There are people who marry and divorce with hardly more thought than we give to choice of hotels; others would never divorce, or if forced to divorce, would never question what they should do with the rest of their lives. All of us fall somewhere in-between. We're answering each others' questions, and questioning each others' answers. I have concluded that in order to avoid giving and receiving pain in this life, one must be alone on whatever island Tom Hanks found himself on in "Castaway". Otherwise, it's a question of making periodic moral choices relative to the giving and receiving of pain. I'm doing the best I can with it, as are all of you.

Sue, Please forgive me. I was under the impression from another one of your posts that your ex was maybe interested in a reconciliation. In one of my past posts, I also mentioned that my ex seemed sad about what happened, but was unwilling to do anything about it. That is my gripe. Not at you, but in general. If two people are so sad about what happened, then you'd think they would do something to change that. As few as about 4 months ago, I sent my ex an e-mail telling him I still loved him, and just a few words telling him what I was doing these days. He never responded, so I haven't written him anything else. Your statement that I don't know what kids go through after a divorce because I don't have any is only partly correct. I witness the disordered lives of adults whose parents divorced. I witness the pain my niece (now seven years old) is going through. I witness the pain of my friend's teenage son whose father didn't even CALL him on Christmas this year. To say that I'm immune to their suffering simply because they are not mine is not fair. Granted, the pain you must be experiencing is tremendous because these children are your own.711, You are correct that I express a certain level of hostility towards people who date during or immediately after a divorce. My ex took off his ring the day after my confession and dated pretty much non-stop during our so-called reconciliation. All the while, he was going off about how committed he is, how loyal he is, how he's a monogamist. blah, blah. When I see people's actions not falling in line with their words, yes, I do experience some animosity...but it is only my anger at my ex's two-faced behavior. People can make any choice they want to, but at least be honest about it. Sys, Ok, guess ya did catch me. I agree that life is a balance. You have been honest about not putting everything you had into your marriage. I trust that you are honest with your girlfriends that they are probably temporary as well. As long as both people know what they are getting into, then it is ok. I met a guy who might have a little bit in common with you. He also doesn't (really) believe that marriage is for life and doesn't believe that divorce is all that bad. That is fine. We tried to be friends for awhile, but it didn't work. When it came right down to it, I wouldn't give him permission to use me anymore. One of the last times I talked to him, he wanted me to do (yet) another favor for him stating "I need to use you again". I just laughed. He said "What?!" I just laughed somemore and said "Oh, well, at least you are being honest. Sorry, can't do it. You'll have to call someone else."That seemed to be his view of relationships. More-or-less a mutually parasitic involvement. I use you, you use me, and as long as both people agree to being "used" for whatever purposes the other person wants them for, then its ok. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: As few as about 4 months ago, I sent my ex an e-mail telling him I still loved him, and just a few words telling him what I was doing these days. He never responded, so I haven't written him anything else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have not seen any such writing from my XW, though she will tell me on the phone or in person if I let her. If I am distant from her, it isn't because I would not want to reapproach her. It is because of the pain I feel and the fear of rejection (I am not yet the person she would want back, and I don't know if I could continue that journey if I were with her). It is so painful to communicate with her and not be *with* her. My aloofness is *not* a sign that I have completely given her up in my heart, decided she is unworthy, poisonous, or evil. It is a protective mechanism shielding my own weakness and lack of emotional skill. I could easily break down at any moment in her presence (and have done so). I can't tell you how to handle your X. What I can tell you is that you don't know what is going on in another person's mind when they fail to respond to you. What you do from now on is your call, of course.

sys, I did consider sending him a christmas card. Over Christmas, I was very near his parent's house and could have very easily dropped by. He has always spent his Christmas's there and it would be virtually guaranteed that he would be there. However, I wouldn't have done so without warning him in advance.I do understand that I have no idea what my ex is experiencing. Based on his behavior while I (should I say we?) were trying to reconcile, it is my impression that he has closed the door, for whatever reason. I totally agree with GDP. A second clarification that may be helpful here involves the belief that it would be easier to start over with someone new rather than go back and clean up the mess. To some extent, I think that that belief is correct! It is easier. Working on a marriage, particularly a broken one, is not easy at all. The fallacy comes in because it is not actually possible to start over. The fact is, marriages don't have problems. People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on."And there's the kicker. Alot of people don't really want to know what they need to work on. Finding someone new means they can put off facing that part of themselves. They can hide what they want to hide and show what they want to show. Believe me. I understand that much myself. How many posts have I generated about how much to tell or not tell about my marriage and about my personal failings?

Student, You have made several negative and personal statements about those of us who have moved on, as if we did not want our marriages, as if we so easily want to go to another relationship, like we have no idea how this affects our kids, etc. Yes, my X came to me several tims during the marriage and separation and asked to reconcile. Many times I did. He continued the affair. But after the last separation, I told him the only way I would be interested in reconciling was if the OW was out of the pictue and we created a plan to save our marriage. I was counseling with Steve H at the time. He agreed, and after again another letter to her telling her it was over, and him telling me that he wanted me back, I heard a conversation they had, secretly recorded. He had full intent to continue with her, he just wanted to get his hooks in me financially, and figure out what to do with the business. His words. No talk to her about wanting his mariage back, no talk about his "love" for me, etc. I did not say anything to him. I did a perfect Plan A. He was to fill out the questionaire about EN and send to Steve. I did mine. He never did his. I told Steve about the conversation I overheard.He recommended I go to Plan B. I remained steadfast but he allowed the divorce clock to continue. On the day it was to be final, I told him we could wait, we could see if we could work it out/ I was still willing. He told me, no, he wanted the divorce. He feels remorse, just as I do. But he does not want a marriage to me anymore.My comment about pain was that you have felt incredible pain over yours. But you seem to think because I am trying to move on with my life that I have never felt much pain. MY pain is 10 times what your would ever be, because of those two kids. While, if your X decides not to reconcile with you, you never have to see him again, people with kids have to deal with those spouses forever. The kids are a constant reminder of a broken promise, marriage, and dreams for those kids. We all come here to heal. While there are some here continuing to hold the door open for their spouses, others of us are divorced and are moving on. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ANY OF THESE CHOICES! You certainly do have a lot of healing to do, as we all do. But try to tone down your judgements about the situation others are in. NONE of us are here because we want to be. ------------------ Susan

Looking at my exH I see a man who found it easier to be with his OW then to try and reconcile with his wife of 12 years. I see an intellectually arrogant man who sees himself as superior to most people and is very uncomfortable in most social situations. I see a man who can decide all by himself that counseling would not help our marriage and did not want to even try. Basically I see a very troubled person with a lot of issues that he does not want to face. I see a man who is very unhappy with himself and tries to derive his happiness through others. I see a man who blames others for his unhappiness and also is very critical to those who are closest to him. I see a man who despite all of his lies, deception and betrayal (adultery) in our marriage expects to get validation for his behavior from his family and co-workers. I see a man that I am glad is out of my life and is someone else's problem now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: You have been honest about not putting everything you had into your marriage. I trust that you are honest with your girlfriends that they are probably temporary as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The first assertion is *not* what I thought at the time ... it is what I have come to believe in retrospect. It is still *no* justification for her divorcing me; it is merely a recognition of my own fallability and failings. The second assertion is also false ... I have no sense that my new GF will be temporary. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I met a guy who might have a little bit in common with you. He also doesn't (really) believe that marriage is for life and doesn't believe that divorce is all that bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I subscribe to neither view. I do, however, realize that (a) I couldn't chain my XW to our marriage; and (b) it's happened and I have to not let it be the end of the world, even though it may still feel like it.And in the interim relationship, I was the one mostly being used (financially, physically, emotionally and otherwise), not that I didn't obviously have needs that were met. I determined however, that some things I needed from her could not be met by her. My financial support, however, continued well past the end of our romantic involvement because she was, and is, a friend.I have recently come to speak quite openly of my own fears ... is your hostility to those who date again an effort to justify *not* doing something that *you* fear? I'm not saying it's necessarily right for you to do so, but it is OK (and healthy) to recognize and admit your fear, if fear be found in your heart.

I don't even recognize my ex when I look at him anymore. Its as if he's a different person, which is partly why I think it was possible for me to let go and go on in life.No one here should have to defend themselves to anyone and it seems to me that many times we are forced to do that.I agree with Sue and her views on this topic and I would much rather deal with the divorce, accept it and move on, and spend my time and hope on something better. I also don't want to turn into some bitter ex wife because of this. Dana

hello, i'm new to this site so this post might not be very smooth ,but here we go. i have enjoyed reading your posts but can't help but be confused at times.please forgive me for what i'm about to write,but we all must remember that the posts we read are only one side of a multisided story.i'm the one who left,it is not as easy as many posts make it out to be.it was the single hardest thing i ever did in my life.when you feel that you must leave your children to be able to keep your sanity and your job[so you can feed and shelter them]you are torn in a way that you would not wish on anyone.leaving means crying yourself to sleep every night,then trying to dry your eyes before you go to work the next day.this is a daily event.when is enough too much?is there a point when you don't think you can survive in your present situation?how many years could you sleep alone in the basement of your home?how many times could you be told to"get out',"find someone else".how many nights could you be alone while your spouse was in their room with the door locked, alone except with their narcotics.how many nights could you eat your wendy's or your leftover pizza alone while your spouse talked on the phone? how many weekends could you spend with your kids and never have a partner...they were home, not there making the "intact family".how many years could you go with never a touch,a kiss, or more importantly an "i love you"? how many years could you work 80 or more hours a week and still not be able to meet someone's credit card bills?some of you speak of trying and commitment, but when 2 doctors make the diagnosis of bipolar disorder and a person refuses to receive treatment,what do you do?when someone would rather trade psych meds with the people at church than take what the dr ordered there is not much you can do. the ow does not always come into your life but you can be pushed into theirs,everyone of us wants to feel that we are valued.when you leave the house in the morning with someone screaming"you f---ing bas---d" out in the driveway in front of the neighbors,you can't believe what it's like to get a phone call from someone who cares about you.after years of receiving calls at work"where the hell are you?when will yo be home?"it's something to get a call"i know you are tired, drive carefuly". i have not yet begun to tell you what it is like when you can't see you kids,there is no greater pain.how would you feel if your spouse told your chidren"daddy does not love you anymore he picked a new family".what would you do when your stbx told the kids about the divorce with all of their freinds present?please be careful, a person just does not "walk out" of 15 years of marriage and 3 kids they adore more than anything, if the situation is not unbearable. i know what you are thinking!why did you not take the kids? because the courts awarded my stbx with such a large sum that to meet the bill i must leave the house before the school bus comes and get home very late,long after school is out.i felt the kids would still be better of with a parent than a nanny.believe me!i would love to have my kids but they have to eat and have a place to live.this next item may scare you.my stbx is one of the people the always writes about prayer and god,you would never think that their behavior is what i have related above.one psychiatrist told me that with bipolar disorder all kinds of stories may be told.one last note.the ow,leaving,divorce,etc is not my first choice.my first choice would to be home with my spouse of 15+ years and my kids,so please remember that not all those that leave are shallow, cruel,and heartless.some are just broken hearted and broken,and feel all of the agony that you feel. thank you for listening.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DanaB: No one here should have to defend themselves to anyone and it seems to me that many times we are forced to do that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm happy to defend myself. If I'm out of line, I will eventually find that my premises or reasoning are faulty, and won't take me from where I am to where I want to go. No one should be afraid of that. It stops everything from bloody noses on the playground to nuclear exchanges.Albert Brooks once made a funny and touching movie called "Defending Your Life" about being called on the carpet in the afterlife.

Wow EVISERATEDWhat a post with so many possibilities in one reading. I left my ex as well. No it isn't easy leaving it was hard for me too. The months that i contemplated leaving I would look at my daughters picture and cry saying I can't do this to her. I remember just before i finally spoke those words of separation sitting on the bathroom floor crying and saying to him we need help and i feel alone, don't you love me? He hugged me and said he loved me and went to work just like that. But never took what i said seriously. I feel like i begged for my marriage to work. In the end i just looked at how i was treating him because i was so full of anger i felt leaving was better than me feeling disappointed and hurt. As well as him receiving personal attacks because i was so frustrated. I feel awful for what i put him through and i wish we could "talk" even when we spent time together i still couldn't bring the words to him and when i tried all i did was offend.It's like we love each other but we just can't seem to connect 100% of the time. I don't hold a grudge or hate him. I know he tried his best. Moving on is HEALTHIER for all three of us (child is the third party) But easy it is not.[This message has been edited by rtn2 (edited January 05, 2001).]

sue,Like I said. It was my (previous) understanding that your ex wanted to reconcile with good intentions. You made it clear before my last post that he did not. I even asked you to "please forgive me" for making that mistake. Your and my definition of "moving on" has always been different, and that is where we tend to butt heads. It is silly to sit here and compare whose pain is worse. I have no clue what pain you went through, and you have no clue what pain I went through. The only gauge I have is people's actions. When I see people quickly rushing out for a new relationship and vehemently defend it, my impression is that they didn't love their ex that much. Any warm body will do--basically. Before you even say it, I'll fill in...When I had my one night stand, I will completely admit that I was not acting in a loving way towards my ex. One could argue that I didn't love him if I was capable of doing that. The difference is...I don't vehemently defend my right to have an affair when I was hurting. Nor do I propose that finding someone new is the solution to my problems, is now an indicator of healing, or anything else. You appear to equate dating with moving on and healing. I don't. It is that simple. So, I will continue to question both betrayers and betrayed about their commitment, choices, and motives. I don't accept that the person who has sex outside the marriage first is the one who has done or is doing the most damage in a marriage. Mainly because good people sometimes make bad choices. Bad or irresponsible people can also be very good at giving the appearance of being "faithful". DanaB, You said in a different thread that you loved your ex like a "brother" and not in a romantic way. So, I'm not surprised that you are looking forward to and enjoying your single life. You have no reason to be a bitter ex-wife because you didn't feel like a wife in the first place, according to you. Whose fault is that? Yours for marrying him? How sad it must have been for him to be married to someone who didn't really love him all these years. So, you were just going through the motions? He had an affair, which gave the excuse you needed to bail? Which is it? Either you loved him and wanted your marriage or you are happy to be rid of him. You seem happy to be rid of him. Ok. That is fine. Just don't whine about his affair or how he left cause he did the dirty work of ending your marriage. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: I don't accept that the person who has sex outside the marriage first is the one who has done or is doing the most damage in a marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I will agree with you on this. But I will also point out, that like others of us on this board, where you stand has a great deal to do with where you're sitting (as an adulteress [I use this word with probably less opprobrium than it seems, but as something more than a technical term--you did wrong, but not monstrous, unforgivable wrong], your position is necessary if you are to retain a decent self-image)

Sisyphus,The old timers here know that I was the "betrayed" in my first marriage. He had sex with over 20 women within a year and a half. I didn't want that divorce either. He didn't want to go to counseling and instead divorced me. My second ex had a "revenge" affair within a month of my confession with a woman he had worked with while we were apart for the 4 months prior. One could argue (and I have some evidence) that he at least was having an emotional affair with this woman before my own affair. On top of that, he proceeded to say and do some of the most heinous things after my confession that I have ever experienced (like telling me to kill myself, calling me a mutilation, two incidents of physical abuse). That, and much worse, continued for nearly a year before he "didn't feel like punishing me anymore" --- his words. Within two weeks of making that statement, he filed for divorce. His timing also coincided with my mother's diagnosis of cancer (which I had just found out about the week before). He conveniently arranged to have the court date set on our anniversary date. When I asked him to move it, he refused. To this day, he insists he never (sexually) cheated on me. As a result, my definition of betrayal naturally includes actions that have nothing to do with sex outside the marriage. When I cheated on my ex, I was not directly trying to hurt him. I was guilty of losing faith and of being selfish, thoughtless, weak, and reckless. As it turns out, I hurt myself much more than I ever hurt him.However, when my ex directly and repeatedly attacked me (both physically and verbally) his intent was to destroy me by any methods necessary. Only after he had succeeded in breaking me down to a level he could be satisfied with, did he finally tire of me. Of course, he was helped along by my complacence and stubborn will to maintain my marriage. My first ex never did those things and was very gentle with me. I believe my first ex loved me more than my second ex, but just wasn't honest with himself about his preferred lifestyle before marrying me. I naively "assumed" that marriage and monogamy went together. What did I know? I was only 21. He suggested we have an open marriage, which I tried for awhile for his sake. so, my words come from experience from being on both sides, not just from my recent experience. My biggest personal challenge right now is that I appear to be unable to choose men who will treat me well. I haven't figured out why that is just yet. I had a pretty crappy childhood (father was a violent alcoholic) so there is alot of junk I personally have to overcome. Still, even though neither ex was a saint--and neither was I--marriage to me meant continuing to help each other with our collective BS. We both had some, and after the time we spent together, as GDP suggests, it seems we could have been pretty effective. I really just don't feel like starting over with someone new and going through all of this again. My exes seem to think that starting with someone new will make their problems go away. The way I see it, we had just gotten started and they ditched and ran as soon as it got too close to "home" for them. I freaked out too when I got scared in my marriage, but realized very quickly what I was doing and decided I needed to fix whatever it is that is plaguing me once and for all. If that now means being "alone" the rest of my life because neither of my exes wanted to join me in the challenge, then so be it. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: On top of that, he proceeded to say and do some of the most heinous things after my confession that I have ever experienced (like telling me to kill myself, calling me a mutilation, two incidents of physical abuse).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That last hit home. In making it clear how badly she wanted to leave, one of the things my XW asked me during dinner at a sidewalk cafe was "do you want me to start cutting myself again, or kill myself?" (she had done the former--but years before we knew each other) Of course, this was the moment when I really started to believe I had to let her go, for her sake. In my dark moments, I sometimes feel like going back in time and saying "Here, take this X-acto blade and go to it!" But that is only my anger. Physical abuse happened in our marriage ... she would occasionally have cortisone injections into a joint. Within a couple of weeks, there would be emotional rebound, and I have been verbally abused, hit, had my crotch grabbed, etc. Once in such a tussle on the bed, I grabbed and squeezed an arthritis-inflamed ankle on purpose. A low point for me. On other occasions when she was in these states of rage, I did block doors, etc. until she calmed down (didn't want her driving like that, or outside the house even). I never raised my hand to her, however. I'm not proud of the fact ... I don't think anyone has a right to be proud merely that they did *not* commit a crime, especially when the provocation was merely words.There were times in our marriage when I began to think "A**hole" was my name. That I fought my emotions successfully so as to seem to let it roll off me only caused her to use it more. Because of how her family was, she *expected* me to yell back; but I even tried that ... and it would cause me to start laughing at my own seeming foolishness. When I was finally yelling for real at the end of our marriage, it was so thermonuclear I don't know how she withstood it (but I guess that having grown up in her family, it was probably not as big a deal to her as *I* might have thought).I always believed that because she had no ability to do much in the way of *physical* damage (and because of the drugs), such incidents were to be dismissed. If I had possessed good sense early, I would have seen that at least *I* needed therapy as a result of them ... perhaps they were more damaging to me than they were to her. Even though I could easily absorb or ward off her blows, my psyche was a lot more vulnerable than that.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by eviscerated:...when is enough too much? is there a point when you don't think you can survive in your present situation? ...some of you speak of trying and commitment, but when 2 doctors make the diagnosis of bipolar disorder and a person refuses to receive treatment,what do you do? ...a person just does not "walk out" of 15 years of marriage and 3 kids they adore more than anything, if the situation is not unbearable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The first time my wife moved out of our house it was her idea and her choice, but it was also with my approval. I really didn't wanted her to do it, but my wife said she needed time to heal, and I thought she might be right. In fact, it turns out that I needed the time to heal as well, since it was during those six months we were living apart (but still interacting with each other) that I finally got control over my depression.When my wife moved back in, her level of tension immediately went back up, and looking at it in retrospect, I don't think it was a wise move. She had gotten into the habit of projecting her negative feelings about herself onto me, and trying to work on our relationship was interfering with her ability to understand and work on herself.What's my point in saying all this? Just that sometimes separating yourself from a situation is a good and healthy thing to do. And enabling someone to behave irresponsibly does not help either the enabled or the enabler. If you've tried to help in every way you can, and that help is refused or abused, then you have to do everything you can to make your spouse take responsibility for him- or herself. That's the principle that Plan A and Plan B are based on. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i know what you are thinking! why did you not take the kids? because the courts awarded my stbx with such a large sum that to meet the bill i must leave the house before the school bus comes and get home very late, long after school is out.i felt the kids would still be better of with a parent than a nanny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This may have been a mistake. I'm not sure that leaving your kids with someone with a diagnosed, dangerous mental illness is a good idea. The courts tend to award money on the basis of current income, but if you were to reduce your income in a way that allows you to spend more time with your kids, you might find that you can get the award adjusted. I'm not a lawyer, so I really don't know. But if I were you, I would do everything I could possibly do to get custody of my kids.

Just so it's clear, I don't have any problem with my wife's moving out, and I have come to believe that her instincts were right when they told her to get away from me. I believe that my own attempts to work on our marriage and to get her back ended up doing her harm. It's dangerous to try to build a relationship when your ego boundaries have crumbled to the point that you know longer know who you are.Where I believe my wife went wrong is in assuming that getting away from me would in and of itself solve any problems for her. It won't. She merely knows that something is wrong, but she doesn't know what. She is flailing away at imagined dangers, not realizing that she is actually running from herself.If my wife ever stops running, and allows her heart to catch up with her, I think it would still probably take years before she could be ready to resume an intimate relationship with me.But that's OK. I'm a patient guy.

Running away from a situation diffently catches up to you. I've done it several times in my. I've always been accused of being mean, because when people need help/advice they ask and i tell them dead nuts. I hope to curve my dead nuts approach with a little more tact BUT that'll take time. But i will never again give anyone power over me.Another thing when i look at my ex i see someone who is quick to put me in place with judgment and harsh words. But fails to look inward at his own short comings.Last time i checked we are all human and capable of growth and learning but you have to start from inside first. That much he was right about.LOLI remember telling my ex when we separated that i had to do this as he begged me to stay. I told him i had to work on myself because i was so angry. Today i know exactly where the anger is and I'm diffusing it slowly. But it has taken me a long time to start healing. I'm sorry i hurt him in trying to be a better person. But i don't regret trying to be more at peace within myself. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by rtn2 (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Physical abuse happened in our marriage ... she would occasionally have cortisone injections into a joint ..., and I have been verbally abused, hit, had my crotch grabbed, etc. Once in such a tussle on the bed, I grabbed and squeezed an arthritis-inflamed ankle on purpose. A low point for me. On other occasions when she was in these states of rage, I did block doors, etc. until she calmed down (didn't want her driving like that, or outside the house even). I always believed that because she had no ability to do much in the way of *physical* damage (and because of the drugs), such incidents were to be dismissed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I just noticed something strange in my prior post. Although I was willing to write what *I* did, I was not willing to use the third person when I described what *she* did. I wrote that those things happened to me, but I could not make her the explicit subject of the sentence and write that *she* did them. It makes my eyes tear up to even *approach* such statements now. The closest I got before was in that last paragraph, and even then I was forced to *diminish* what she did to me. I don't quite know why these particular memories evoke such strong feelings that I should want to dissasociate her from her actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: I just noticed something strange in my prior post. Although I was willing to write what *I* did, I was not willing to use the third person when I described what *she* did. I wrote that those things happened to me, but I could not make her the explicit subject of the sentence and write that *she* did them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have this same kind of problem. It's hard to believe or acknowledge that the person you love and who loved/loves you could be capable of such actions. So I tend to think of my wife's desperation or panic being the actual perpetrator. As if some demon had possessed her, and she doesn't really know what she's doing.And yet, she chose her actions and is responsible for them.I think for me this may be the remnants of a denial that contributed to my depression. Deep inside I believed that because I loved my wife, I was not allowed to be angry with her. I thought if I didn't see her through the proverbial rose-colored glasses, I might lose my love for her.Fortunately, I found that my fears were unfounded. I still have an automatic tendency to excuse or diminish my wife's cruel actions, but even when I force myself to look at them in all their ugliness, my love for my wife is as strong as ever.My trust, on the other hand...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by rtn2: But i will never again give anyone power over me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's called establishing boundaries. They're good, and important, and although an occasional trespass is probably inevitable, someone who really loves you will respect them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i know what you are thinking! why did you not take the kids? because the courts awarded my stbx with such a large sum that to meet the bill i must leave the house before the school bus comes and get home very late, long after school is out.i felt the kids would still be better of with a parent than a nanny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your wife was awarded this money while you were still living at home? That seems rather unusual. And if you had custody, wouldn't she be awarded less or no alimony, and be paying you child support?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nellie1: Your wife was awarded this money while you were still living at home? That seems rather unusual. And if you had custody, wouldn't she be awarded less or no alimony, and be paying you child support? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>the court awards support based on the previous years income and it does not change. the court said "even if you get ill or have a nervous breakdown the award does not change".because she has not worked in a few years the court assumes that she can only make minimum wage which calculates out to be 2%of the child support.there is no way she could even support herself.i must admit that i entered into the custody"agreement"in good faith,thinking that if i made their lives financialy sound she would "allow" me to see the kids.YEAH RIGHT.the courts can enforce thesupport order but the visitation deal is very vague.

If you had custody, there would be no child support, so saying that you had to give up custody because you had to pay so much child support does not make much sense.And, btw, my H made almost 100 thousand dollars in 1999. In the middle of this year he got laid off. The court awarded child support based only on his unemployment income, which combined with my income brings the six children and me just about to the poverty level. My lawyer said that the courts will not make the non-custodial parent pay more than he can reasonably comfortably afford, even if it means the children starve. And it makes no difference when the non-custodial parent gets to share expenses with someone who is rich enough that he gets to have a standard of living far better than what we ever had. In every state, visitation and child support are not connected. She can not withhold visitation if you do not pay, and you can not refuse to pay if she withholds child support.

The Student:Thanks for your explanation regarding your hostility towards people who date early. I think I am very honest person. Many people have told me that I am too honest for my own good. I am very direct and do not play games. So I'm just curious if I have said something that you have found conflicts with my actions? I will say to my grave with complete honesty, that I would have stayed in my marriage forever. I was miserable and hated my relationship with my x, but I would have stayed married and I would have kept trying and going to counseling to see if we could turn things around. But, he wouldn't. He left. He has never once indicated any desire to come back. So, I gave up. I gave up. I didn't want to fight a losing battle. I was relieved that it was finally over but I was also sad that it was over. That is possible. I cried and cried that we failed at our marriage and our children would suffer because of it. But, I knew he wouldn't try again so I said ok. Let's divorce. I am not happy about it. I hate divorce. I hate the loss of my dream. But, I knew there was no hope so I moved on. You know my story.I guess I just need to say again for the record, that I do not think I am some wonderful person that made all these sacrifices and my x still left me. I am well aware of my role in the break up of my marriage. I also know my x well enough to know that when he said it was over, it was over. And, I know when I need to get over that and move on. But even though there was a part of me that was relieved to finally be out of this terrible marriage, there was another part of me that was devastated by the loss of the marriage and the dream of a life for my kids like I had with my parents. You can hate your marriage but still grieve when it is over. You can mourn a marriage even if you hated it. There were times that I hated my x husband. But, I still loved him too. I guess what I am trying to say, is that you cannot just look at people's actions and know what is really in their heart. People are just not that easy to read. [This message has been edited by 711 (edited January 06, 2001).]

TS,There is a big difference between loving someone and being "in love" with them. Love is different to everyone. Many times we start out "in love" and honestly, after the kids come, the romance is gone and the love changes.I loved my husband. I also did what I did for the children, which wasn't the best choice, but I made the best of it.I started feeling a different kind of love for him that last year. Coincidently was the same time he started the affair. In hindsight things always make more sense.Anyone who has had a child will tell you that there is a certain bond that you will share with the mother/father of your child, regardless for the rest of your life. I don't appreciate you psycho analyzing every thing I post and then telling me about it in some post that is totally unrelated. I also don't appreciate you thinking you know me well enough to tell me I never loved my ex and all the other negative things you say. I don't think that I whine, I barely post here anymore.However, everyone has their right to their opinion as does yourself, but I will say that earlier in this thread, or one of the others of rtn2's, I can't keep them straight, someone pointed out that its obvious to see who's bitter and who's not.I believe you get what you put out in this world, and if you chose to be negative and throw insults around all the time then I don't see how you are going to heal. I don't follow your posts enough to judge whether or not you loved either of your husbands. I am not here for a soap opera or to waste any more time arguing. I post to my old friends who have been here since I came, and I try to post something to some of the new people who come. I won't appologize for deciding to stop trying to save my marriage, and it has nothing to do with love and everything to do with being pushed enough and putting a stop to it. I felt like I was becoming weak, needy and had no self esteem on Plan A and thats what killed it for me.Dana

the <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nellie1: If you had custody, there would be no itchild support, so saying that you had to give up custody because you had to pay so much child support does not make much sense.And, btw, my H made almost 100 thousand dollars in 1999. In the middle of this year he got laid off. The court awarded child support based only on his unemployment income, which combined with my income brings the six children and me just about to the poverty level. My lawyer said that the courts will not make the non-custodial parent pay more than he can reasonably comfortably afford, even if it means the children starve. And it makes no difference when the non-custodial parent gets to share expenses with someone who is rich enough that he gets to have a standard of living far better than what we ever had. In every state, visitation and child support are not connected. She can not withhold visitation if you do not pay, and you can not refuse to pay if she withholds child support. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>it makes pefect sense,i'm a physician who can not get laid off.my support and alimony payments were way more than what your h made while he was working and i paid all of the taxes and most other expenses.my hours were long before the separation so they had to remain long to meet the payments.you must not live in pa because the court has no concern about who is or is not comfortable.i have seen this happen to both men and women.my lawyer showed the court that with those payments and the other expenses,it would exceed my income,they could have cared less.in pa the penalty for nonsupport is prison,the penalty for contempt[refusing visitation]is a slap on the wrist.one last note,i have talked to many women who have been handed this bitter pill and there seems to be no rhyme or reason,regardless of the gender or income.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by eviscerated: My lawyer showed the court that with those payments and the other expenses,it would exceed my income,they could have cared less. ...There seems to be no rhyme or reason,regardless of the gender or income.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You know, I had had very little problem with anger at my wife. She is in the fog and is hurting herself more than she is hurting me.I haven't even had much of a problem with anger at my in-laws. Sure, they should have been able to tell that my wife was behaving in an uncharacteristic and self-destructive manner, but they have a family history of denial and enabling and I can understand how in their confusion they would fall back on old habits.What I do get angry and bitter about is the legal system. The government of this great country has taken on the role of bandits, without even a pretense of justice, without even bothering to review the facts. The lawyers I can understand, they're at least getting paid to rape and pillage. But what's the excuse of the magistrates and judges? They don't benefit from the arbitrary redistribution of income they impose.And I'm not even talking about situations in which the facts are in dispute!So what is it? Do they decide to perpetrate some gross injustice just because they can and it gives them a greater feeling of power than if they actually tried to be just or fair? Or is it simply that they can't be bothered to take the time to skim the briefs that you paid your lawyer hundreds of dollars to prepare, or even to pay attention when something is said in court?My theory is that modern-day judicial philosophy is based purely on Procrustes. They'll somehow make you fit their tidy little formulae, no matter how badly they wrest justice, or how badly they destroy lives in the process. And don't expect them to waste any time looking for best fit. After all, there's another case waiting behind yours.Justice is blind all right. But forget those old-fashioned scales. Nowadays she drives a steamroller, and she isn't very particular about where it goes.

My ex recently wrote me a letter saying that he questions our chemistry and whether or not he really ever truly connected with me. It showed me that hindsight and a new relationship can distort the past. We connected; we were happy; we were terrific. At first. He went on to say that he is now with someone who gives him the peace that he has always longed for. This example illustrates two points: 1) that one can easily rationalize away the past in order to be comfortable with the present 2) it is very easy to seek peace outside onself. It may appear that I agree with the Student here. Yes, it is easy to sit back and say "Whew! I'm glad that's over" when it is actually over. But how productive is it to sit around and say over and over again "Damn, I am miserable." Also, think about this: why is does it seem impossible for someone to claim a deep and profound love for someone and still say they had a deep and profound love for someone else? I feel that it takes a great amount of courage to admit that you loved someone with all your soul but you screwed it up. Don't deny the love just to be justify or validate a new one. Secondly, the people that are saying that they are "happy" with their divorces are not happy with the pain or the act itself. They are choosing to shape their lives and attitudes based on the circumstances. And yes, my H made the choice to leave me. I made the choice to "mistreat" him. We are both guilty. But I am making a choice to use my pain for growth. TS, you say that you will never see the good in your divorce. How can't you? If you don't start looking, all your celibacy, self-analysis, angst, and bitterness will leave you hungry for real peace.

DanaB,Correct me if I'm wrong...Maybe I need to go back to the thread you said it and quote it directly. You said you loved your ex "in your own way" and that you loved him like a "brother", not like a wife. Those were your words, not mine.To me, you either loved him and wanted your marriage (as a wife), or you didn't. THEN you say you are happy to be rid of him, so that means to me that you didn't really love him (see the paragraph above) and you didn't want your marriage. Not to mention the fact you were pretty deep into a new relationship long before your divorce was final. These are not the words and actions of a person who is terribly distraught about a divorce, and they certainly aren't the words and actions of a person who has put a whole lot of thought into why their marriage ended. Just my opinion.You can't have it both ways. I know that there are some "betrayed" who want to leave the impression that their spouse's infidelity was the worst thing that ever happened to them, but at the same time, are dancing a jig that they are now single. It leaves me with the distinct impression that they did plenty to hasten the ending of their marriages, even if they weren't the first ones to have sex with someone else. Again, just my opinion.711, My hostility wasn't directed at you. It is directed at people who have acted like my ex. Since I'm picking on DanaB right now, I'll tell you how this relates...I'm pretty sure she didn't punish her ex like mine did to me. She says her ex had no remorse, and I did. So our circumstances are different in that respect. What she (and a few others here) has in common with my ex is that they want to claim infidelity victim status while still dating while they were married. Anyway, like I said, can't have it both ways. In the big scheme of things, I guess I'm just mad that divorce is so common. With every divorce, it just becomes easier and easier for other couples to bail when they don't "feel" like it anymore. I get mad when people (in their efforts to feel better about their lives and choices) actually are GLAD they are divorced now. What kind of hammering do you think I'd get if I said I was GLAD I cheated? It bugs me that all someone has to do is come here and claim their spouse cheated on them, and all judgement flies out the window. It's like, do whatever feels good cause you deserve it. What SOME people (not you 711) don't seem to understand is that the same "fog" their exes suffered is the same "fog" they are experiencing when dating someone new, especially if they haven't spent much time in their own head. If they date soon after a divorce, how could they? They are distracted by the new person...It's not just adulterers who are responsible for that 75% divorce rate for multiple marriages. gsd, I almost missed your comment....I will never be one to claim that my divorce was for the best or that I'm happy to be divorced. I absolutely believe in making one's life the best possible, which I try to do everyday. You said I should "look"? What should I be looking for? I don't believe in "looking" for love. That is what people do when they want something, not when they have something to give. Lots of people think I'm celibate because I'm punishing myself, but I'm not. Mostly, I've got stuff to do and some important goals (like a PhD, eventually adopting, buying my own house). Not only that, it appears we live in a world in which marriage doesn't mean a whole lot and we're all supposed to just go-with-the flow after a divorce. Like, oh well, didn't work out. Neeext. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 07, 2001).]

oops, double post[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 07, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>TS, you say that you will never see the good in your divorce. How can't you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think it is wrong to pretend there is "good" where none exists. At a minimum, divorce is a terrible tragedy. I think many people do their best to try to convince themselves that there is something good about it, or they are better off somehow, just because they can not handle the fact that horrible things do happen without any justification, and that good does not necessarily triumph.If your spouse died of a sudden heart attack, no one would try to tell you that you are better off. They would accept that it is a tragedy, and just try to comfort you. Why is divorce different? Because somehow people hope that it is somehow predictable, that if you were to remarry it wouldn't be just as likely to happen again?

The Student:Well, I'm glad to hear that I am not coming across as someone who thinks they are a victim. I know that is far from the truth. When I wrote my message the other night, I thought I may have been a little defensive. One of my many things that I'm working on. But, honesty, is one of my best qualities so I needed to make sure that hadn't changed. If I was coming across differently, I wanted to know. Sometimes I do wonder if I am all talk. It's like 99% of me knows what is the best thing to do at a certain time (like not dating too soon, work through issues, etc. etc.) and then that other 1% of me comes out and screws it all up for me. I used to be so easily persuaded (or manipulated) by others. Now, I am finally realizing that I need to do what I want or know is right and not be persuaded otherwise. My old bf pushed right through any boundaries I tried to set up but I was an easy pushover so I'm not really blaming him. But, I have learned that I need to stand firm on my boundaries going forward. I also understand your anger towards your x but sometimes that anger seems to be taken out on others here. I appreciate that you responded to my post. I hate when the posts get confrontational. But, it also gives me some practice on dispute resolution as my therapist would call it.

711, I've got a confession to make. If you saw me in real life, I don't think you'd experience me as an angry person. I actually have a sense of humor (believe it or not). When I was married to my ex, I had a huge problem with his anger. Now, I still beleive he had a big anger problem. However, I took way too much of his stuff personally. Anger was not an emotion I expressed to him. Mostly I just cried. I did tell him how I felt, I truly did. If I'd had a thicker skin, I would have felt safer telling him off instead of just sucking in all of his insults. So, I stuffed a great deal of anger the last year or two of our marriage. Because I had a one-night stand, there were plenty of people here who told me I deserved to be treated the way he was treating me. I believed them too. That is another reason why I lay out the 20 questions to betrayed who seem a little to blithe about their marriage/divorce. Because I've been on both sides, perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive to inconsistencies.So now, I swear I stir stuff up just so I can develop a thicker skin, and for the most part it has worked. I throw it out, and people throw it back. I've talked to some of my off-line friends about my tendency to use MB as my anger sounding board and have felt bad about it at times. On the other hand, there's lots of anger to go around here. Maybe it is cathartic to throw it at me sometimes too. Nellie,Oh, I totally agree. Not only that, if I ever WERE to date again, I'd have to dream up all these reasons why my divorce was such a wonderful learning experience. What a bunch of bull. All I really tell people is that my ex didn't want to try anymore and that I wanted to keep trying, but I can't control what another person does. That is not the same thing as saying "yoo, hoo, glad he's outta here!!"gsd, oh, one more thing. I don't think that what any of the people posting on this board are experiencing is really love with the new people they are dating. Sure, they have feelings, but that is not love in my book.

Hey people RELAX!!!!!!Everybody here has come for different reasons. Explanations, identity, healing, help, and insight.We are not suppose to judge someone else's actions. While I realize these are hot topics sometimes can we please try to remember that all of us have been hurt to varying degree's whether we were the one that left or got left.Response time,Dana I understand what your saying. You loved him in the beginning and that love over time faded (for whatever reason) and you found yourself no longer "in love" with your husband. The statement of some people are still bitter etc... that was me. My point was that when you read these posts you can feel the energy coming from them. (negative or positive)I don't believe anyone here is trying to say marriages aren't worth working on. But there comes a point to some people where they feel like they are losing themselves and in an attempt to rebuild sometimes you realize that rebuilding yourself can take you away from your spouse as opposed to closer.For me i feel love for my ex but i respect the fact that we approach life in different ways. We lasted 10 years (5 married) and today we can't even be in the same room with one another because there is so much resentment. Yes i do believe my divorce was for the better and so does he. He found himself a woman that caters to his needs and i found peace within myself and lowered my stress level 100%. We don't work together. It always felt like a struggle. But that doens't deminish the person he is today. Being bitter towards him is a waste of my energy. I try sometimes to talk to him but he can not handle my being a friend so on his own actions he became the father of my child and today i have no use for him. I don't mean that harshly but i can do for myself. I've grown more independent and the guy i see now respects that. As i stated earlier my ex found someone whom he enjoys pampering. I can honestly say that i am happy for him.

Oh, I don't know. I suppose that I believe that part of the beauty of marriage IS the struggle. Of course, I don't believe that all marriages can or should be saved. However, the "I'm ok, you're ok" attitude about divorce these days is pretty disgusting. We have at least a 50% divorce rate in this country. Most of it is due to pure laziness and selfishness IMO. OF COURSE a new person is going to feel "right" and comfortable at this moment. They wouldn't have gotten together if it wasn't "easy" for them to do so. What keeps couples together though? As Gnomedeplume pointed out, vows aren't necessary when things are going beautifully.Why is it "negative" to consider divorce a tragedy? Why is it "negative" to admit that it has totally screwed up my life? If I had gotten mugged or raped, or my spouse had died, noone would be saying "oh, this is such a great learning experience for you". On the other hand, IN SPITE of my personal feelings about divorce, I am FORCED to try and make my life the best possible because I can't control my ex's decisions. How encouraging is it for my neice (and my ex's nephews) to see that everyone of her/his aunts or uncles are divorced? There are simply more and more children now who grow up beleiving divorce is a solution to life's problems because of the adults around them....not just their parents. Our culture seems to be divided into two camps....those who beleive that divorce is an unfortunate circumstance that equates to little more than a bump in the road on the path to finding one's (idiotic) soul mate. Then there are those who believe that most divorces are completely avoidable and as destructive as almost any abuse. Anyone can guess which side I fall on. rtn2, The "best" thing would have been for your ex to get some counseling to help him deal with his anger/abuse problem. I don't blame you for leaving a dangerous situation, though. Divorce in this case only postpones the inevitable for your ex, unfortunately. It might take awhile, but he'll probably end up abusing his next GF/wife as well unless he gets some serious help. It is likely you will end up with another abuser (or may even become an abuser yourself) down the line if you don't do the same. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: There are simply more and more children now who grow up beleiving divorce is a solution to life's problems because of the adults around them....not just their parents. Our culture seems to be divided into two camps....those who beleive that divorce is an unfortunate circumstance that equates to little more than a bump in the road on the path to finding one's (idiotic) soul mate. Then there are those who believe that most divorces are completely avoidable and as destructive as almost any abuse. Anyone can guess which side I fall on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is usually an appropriate Aristotelian mean between two extremes. Through mechanisms both official and unofficial, even the Catholic Church recognizes that divorce is sometimes appropriate. And believe me, society keeps track of the ex count -- looking askance at celebrities who inexplicably run up the score. Few think marriage and divorce are a joke. So the "free and easy" divorce was intended to *help*, not hurt. The emotionally immature have simply chosen to make a revolving door out of what was supposed to be an emergency exit. Like welfare (where an indolent few made a hammock out of the abandoned homemaker's safety net), one can question whether the result lived up to the intention. I believe it was too easy for my XW to divorce me. The no-fault laws in my state gave me little protection, and she has inexplicably blown off the Catholic Church (under which I had 12 years schooling, but of which I was never a member). But I'm not sure whether going back to the old way would do a lot for society. The no-fault divorce is a boon to women as I see it -- given that fewer of them are in the workforce compared to men, and their reproductive role trammels their earnings prospects; they are not *trapped* in marriages where they are *going crazy* (still have a hard time empathiziing with that one--but then, maybe we men "go crazy" without even noticing). Has a boomerang effect occurred to the detriment of women? To hear the men tell it, I don't think so. Where the women have economic gripes, it's with men who are no-accounts anyway--the women would hardly be better off where divorce is unavailable.I thought I had my soul mate; she didn't. I was just a supposed golden retriever who spared her from honoring her commitment to stand knee-deep in the Cameroonian mud and teach tribespeople to fish. In the end, I'm left with unpredictable refluxes of bitterness; and I don't know what she has. Unanswered questions large and small will multiply forever like cosmic monoliths in the Jovian atmosphere. Symbiosis or co-dependency? The jury may never come in.

While I do feel for some, divorce can be easy, I believe there is a distinct difference on most of us who post here. Student, what you fail to realize is that most of us are here because we wnted to save our marriages. If we had a "indifferent" attitude about marrriage, as you seem to think those of us moving on are portraying, then why did we seek out this site, why did many of us go to counseling, why did many of us go through the obvious pain of trying to deal with our WS, take them back time after time, why would we be here???We are here because we wanted our marriages, tried to apply the principles found here on this site, and, we failed. For whatever reason, we failed. It may have a lot to do with us, or with the situation our marriage was in at the time, perhaps our WS had a midlife crisis, etc. But, and I will speak for myself, I felt a real sense of failure. I come here now because I have accepted my place in not making my marriage what it could have been. But, it is time to move on, without judgements. That is what this site is for. Student, if your commitment to marriage is/was so strong, you should never have married the second time. BUt, for whatever the reason, it did not work out. I do not believe that you were any less committed to that first marriage than the second, or at least you shouldn't have been. So, you gave marriage a second chance. If it did not work for you, then we are here to help you heal. But, please, don't chastize those of us who want a future with another, and the promise of a good marriage. I believe we learn from each experience. ------------------ Susan

double post, sorry[This message has been edited by sue (edited January 08, 2001).]

Sue, You didn't see the post where I mentioned that I did not make a life-time commitment in my first marriage. I was ready to, but my first ex changed the "vows" at the last minute, at the altar. Those vows did not include fidelity, till death do us part, for better or worse, nothing. All he said was that he loved me and wanted to spend his life with me. I squeaked out a lame "me too". I should have walked out at that very moment, but didn't. "Till death do us part" was not a promise I made to my first ex. So, that is how I justified my second marriage.You're going to have to work harder than that if you want to prove THAT point. My first ex had our marriage annulled and was remarried less than a year afterward. So, by all accounts (promises not made and "marriage" annulled), I was not really married except on a piece of paper. Still, I did not remarry for at least 5 yrs following my first divorce. I hardly rushed back to the altar. My first ex never said the words. Perhaps he was the more honest of the two. My second ex said the words and broke every promise on that list before it was said and done. You don't really need to defend your level of commitment to me. You seem convinced you did everything you could. Who really cares what I think? You appear to be perfectly happy with your choices. That's fine. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2001).]

oh, one more thing...If I hear one more time "it just didn't work out" I'm going to friggin' HURL!If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it is probably a duck. Whenever someone says "it just didn't work out", "I've moved on", etc, etc, it inevitably is the person who chose the divorce. OF COURSE you've moved on, Sue. You MOVED ON the day you decided to get a divorce. DUH!!!

Sysiphus said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where the women have economic gripes, it's with men who are no-accounts anyway--the women would hardly be better off where divorce is unavailable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree completely. My H cared very much about providing for his family when he was home. For the almost 25 years I knew him, he was only unemployed for less than a month. Although he worked in a white collar job most of the time, he was never afraid of hard physical labor.Once he left, all that changed. He was laid off and has been out of work for nearly nine months, in a booming economy. Shortly after he left us, he mentioned that he would much rather have someone else do the hard, dirty work - an odd statement for a former dairy farmer. The "old" H would be working at whatever job he had to to feed his children. Now he seems not to care that his kids are living at about the poverty level. It is my responsibility, not his. He pays the court ordered child support, which isn't much, but he argued vehemently against having to pay anything for our children's college educations. Once there is an OW, oftentimes men completely switch their loyalties to her and her family. It seems that the more devoted they were to their family, the farther the pendulum swings. [This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 08, 2001).]

Student, Your justifications for your first marriage not working is the same as others here. Maybe he did not "say" the words that day, but I am sure if you didn't feel it was a lifetime commitment you would not have married him. Whatever the reason, it didn't work. You went on to a second marriage. You wanted a marriage, a good one. So do the others here. Your level of commitment is no different than the people you are chastizing here. Perhaps you waited longer to marry the second time, and I am sure that you felt that was anough time to heal and move on. You don't have to convince me...just keep your assumptions about others convictions to their marriages to yourself and let those here to need to vent and discuss issues that pertain to moving on do it. We don't need your lectures about how corrupt we are. ------------------ Susan

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nellie1: Once he left, ... [h]e was laid off and has been out of work for nearly nine months, in a booming economy. Now he seems not to care that his kids are living at about the poverty level. It is my responsibility, not his. He pays the court ordered child support, which isn't much, but he argued vehemently against having to pay anything for our children's college educations. Once there is an OW, oftentimes men completely switch their loyalties to her and her family. It seems that the more devoted they were to their family, the farther the pendulum swings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's tragic, and I'm sorry it happened. My question (and it's not a question intended to demean your hurtful experience) is: Would this have happened in the absence of liberalized divorce laws? I honestly don't know. I suspect there would not have been much difference, but I can certainly see where people (especially people who have been divorced in a no-fault state) might feel differently. Remember, I thought it was too easy for her to divorce me too. I just am not sure that going back to the old way wouldn't be abandoning a reform after we've forgotten the benefit we derived from it and the greater evil it eliminated. Maybe this topic needs its own thread.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 09, 2001).]

sue, you are absolutely right. I don't need to convince you. While you are busy telling me what to do and say, I'll follow with one of my own...Next time you get "married", don't bother to make the promise "Till death do us part", "for better or worse", "in sickness and in health", or "love, honour, and cherish". You obviously don't have the stomach for it. So friggin' what? You kept one out of---what is it---five? You kept the fidelity vow. Good for you. Right on. Your average is 20%.If you were completely honest, you'll say "I'll be here for you as long as you meet my needs". Now that would really be the truth. There is no "it" in "it didn't work". People make choices. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 09, 2001).]

TSYou are really a sick, sick individual. You are bitter and pathetic individual who makes herself feel better by attacking others. You need serious help. Please do the world a favor and never get involved in another relationship and never have children. You have nothing of value to offer here. I have written an email to S Harley hopefully others will too your personal attacks are not acceptable here.

kalgrl,Well, you have a right to your opinion. If I'm bitter about anything, it is the fact that so many marriages in our country end in divorce. The fact that so many find it so easy to "move on" and say "it just didn't work out" makes it that much easier for those who are facing a crisis in their marriage to give up. After all, vows are only meant to be kept when it is easy and feels good, right? The reason why I'm so vehement about this is because (IMO) people who say "it just didn't work out" really aren't taking responsibility for their choices. In reality, Sue (and some others who initiated divorce) didn't feel like trying anymore in her marriage. That is what it really comes down to. Other options were available. That is what she chose. Lets not whitewash it and pretend that it was just some unfortunate circumstance...some rude twist of fate or something. There are many other people here who have chosen divorce. I have some very close friends (both here and off-line) who have chosen divorce whom I've not "attacked" as you say. Mostly because they aren't making up excuses for getting a divorce, they aren't minimizing it by saying it just didn't work out, and they take full responsibility for their choices in life.My own mother today said to me "You just weren't with the right person." I said "Hooey. Marriage is what you make it." You see. I won't even let my own mother get away with that. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 09, 2001).]

Again, I say, You don't know who tried and who didn't. There are many reasons for divorce, and I am sure most of the people here put great effort into saving their marriages and could not. It makes complete sense to me that most here have found this site because of wanting their marriages. If I had not"felt" like trying, I guess I shouldn't have spent many $ with Steve Harley in counseling. I guess I would have told him to leave at the first inkling of the affair. Nope, I stuck it out until HE choose the other woman over me. I accept full responsibility for what I did or did not do in my marriage. But, that does not change the fact that HE had choices, too. I cannot change another person. I can only change myself. You need to turn your anger over what you percieve as those of us wanting a life after divorce into something positive for yourself. It is hurtful to others when you are so judgemental and critical on a site that is here to help all of us heal. Again, you DON'T know what people have done to save their marriages. ------------------ Susan

"You need to turn your anger over what you percieve as those of us wanting a life after divorce into something positive for yourself."I'm not against people having a life after divorce. I'm AM against people selling others the idea that divorce is an "it" that didn't "work out". "IT" is choices that both people make. You didn't feel like trying anymore. Fine. Just admit it and stop pretending that someone twisted your arm and somehow forced you to end your marriage. Do you see me picking on Sisyphus? He came right out and admitted he didn't do all he could. You see I'm not harrassing him. How many others here are the ones who have chosen divorce? Lots. Many of those have chosen to date again too. So, why am I picking on you?Not that it matters, but I actually do believe you did your best. I can't hate you because YOUR best may not be someone else's best. I'm just opposed to the nonchalant language you use when describing your divorce. I'm opposed to you selling the idea that you have made great gains in healing simply because you immediately jumped out of your marriage and into a relationship with someone you knew for 10 yrs. prior to your divorce and are happy with it. I'd call that a safety net. You stole third base, and you want to convince me you hit a triple. As long as it is in my power, I will never fail to let anyone know what a tragedy divorce is. My marriage will never be an "it", that is for sure.

It would be wonderful to see that people could live upto their vows.I don't deny that i failed in my attempt to reach a fulfilling relationship. But when you have new found "education" and "realization" how do you go where do you go, from that point?If you see a thread, a connecting factor between your ex and you do you act? OR do you chaulk it upto "we were married once"

TS, I have read through this entire thread and I have to say that for the most part, I agree with what you say. What I don't agree with is the singling out of individuals that you have been doing here. We are each entitled to have opinions - and entitled to express them ...But when expressing your opinions involves the need to vent AT others, then it becomes "personal" - and from what I understand about the way in which these forums are run, that is not acceptable. I would hate for you to wind up banned from one of the places where people probably understand the pain you have gone and are going through because you seem to need each of us to acknowledge that you are right.You remind me a bit of myself before my husband left me... I couldn't just say my piece and let it go at that - I HAD to have him acknowledge that I was right. Since he left and I have worked on ME, I have realized that the only time it is important for me to be right is if it is a life and death situation.I am faced with my husband's "need" for a divorce after over two years of the best Plan A I have ever seen here... and I am faced with a choice, both of which will most likely involve me losing. I can just sign on the dotted line, cut my losses and try to move on. Or, I can fight ... and, very likely lose, because even in a non-no-fault state, there is a perception that the court cannot "force" someone to love another person again. Even if I should "win," my husband is unlikely to look on my fighting him as anything less than the hugest love buster ever, and I lose anyway. There is always the possibility that he will change his mind, but how much suffering would you prescribe for me before I have suffered enough to make walking away "valid" in your eyes?Just to make it very clear: my intent at the moment is to oppose divorce, because I believe that my husband and I could have an extremely satisfying, exciting and happy relationship again if we were to spend time together without any slug slime present in our lives... However, if I did decide to sign divorce papers without fighting, even after 28 months of Plan A, would that put me on your "hit list" too?Thickening your skin will not make you happy, and, if you have an ounce of empathy, doing it at the expense of other people who have suffered you know not what is more likely to make you miserable than anything else. It is not necessary to know you are right in the eyes of others if you know you are right in your heart. Divorce IS a tragedy. One which hurts sometimes more than losing a spouse to death. But everyone must deal with the tragedy in his or her own way. For some of us, that means examining the tragedy to see if it can be turned somehow into a triumph with all of the same players... for others, it means isolating ourselves from the origin of the hurt, licking our wounds, and healing by going in a different direction with different players.I am much better at letting this kind of thing roll off of my back than I used to be - but I still hurt. I am hurting right now - my husband is seeing a lawyer tomorrow... But I would not condemn those who have chosen to walk a different path from mine. "They" say that tolerance and understanding come with maturity. Maybe I am finally growing up at the age of 41?------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

I think one of the points of disagreement is whether it is really ever possible to "heal", or whether divorce is a tragedy that leaves wounds that never go away. The wounds can be ignored, and you can be temporarily distracted by a new love interest, but they are still there. My H's first wife left him after only two months, and I am convinced that he NEVER came close to getting over that. Even some of the statements he made after leaving me seemed like he was replaying the tapes of his first marriage. For instance, he told our daughter that marrying me was a mistake but he was young - but 30 is hardly a young age at which to marry. He was barely 21 when he married the first time. I think his first wife deserting him, combined with his father's treating him like he wasn't good enough, was enough to prevent him from ever being able to truly commit to anyone ever again. I don't think he ever really believed that he was loved, no matter how much evidence there was to the contrary. There is no such thing as "getting over" a divorce.

Nellie, I agree to an extent. I truly believe that divorce is not a solution for most marital issues. That is not to say that there is never a time when divorce is "necessary."If you ask a young amputee athlete does he miss his legs, I'm sure he will say yes. But I'm also sure that he is not letting those feelings become what determines if he continues his life and finds new ways of feeling good about himself.I cannot, of course, talk from experience with amputation nor with divorce, and I certainly cannot speak to the issue of children. But I do know the pain of having your husband leave you for another woman. And I know that at some point, I am going to have to decide to either go on and find other rewards in life, or I might as well just curl up and die... And I know I am too young to let the rest of my life go by without my participation.No, the healing is never complete - the scars will be forever painful. However, we CAN choose what we do with that pain and how we do it. I agree that some of the people here who have moved on to other relationships probably will experience some delayed issues with regard to their previous marriages. However, it isn't up to you and me to judge whether the fact that they have moved on is right or wrong... Everyone must follow their own path in this. And everyone must live with the paths they have chosen. No one can truly ever walk in the shoes of another. ------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Terri:I think what you have written is so true and written so well.Jen

Terri,There are plenty of people who come on MB who may or may not have put the level of effort into their marriages that I have. There are probably quite a few who put MORE than me. I'm not judging which level of effort is right or wrong. I'm judging people's honesty about it. If their words don't match their actions, to me that means that something is not-quite-right, and I will call them on it. I've stopped responding to some of these people because it is clear they have a pretty deep emotional investment in their dishonesty. It's no skin off my back. It's their life. I don't need to be the "honesty police".On the other hand, where I won't sit still is when their dishonesty leads them to hand out irresponsible advice to vulnerable people. Two of these people I've "singled out" on this particular thread (do I need to name names?) have made a habit of encouraging newly divorced (and not yet divorced) people to date again. Basically, all one has to do is come here and claim their spouse had sex with someone else, and they get a thumbs-up to "move on".The vast majority of those people who took their advice have come back here and frankly admit that they regret dating so soon. They admit to feeling even more hurt now. So, I think their advice hurts people far worse than a few blunt words on my part. What is more destructive? I think their BAD advice presented in a "nice-tone" is incredibly destructive. I think they are hurting people with their blase approach to divorce recovery and I won't just sit here and watch them do it in the name of PSEUDO healing. Not only is their advice destructive to the people who come here, but to the men/women these people get involved with prematurely and to their children (if they have any). Besides, there will always be opposition at the "extremes", and that is where we are, apparently. In my line of work, ideas get debated pretty fiercely. VERY fiercely at times. There are people who enjoy the debate, and there are those that do not. Oh well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: Two of these people I've "singled out" on this particular thread (do I need to name names?) have made a habit of encouraging newly divorced (and not yet divorced) people to date again. Basically, all one has to do is come here and claim their spouse had sex with someone else, and they get a thumbs-up to "move on".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just my two cents: Deciding when you try to "move on" after divorce depends on a lot of factors. You, your ex-spouse, your children, and what happened to screw up the marriage are all important considerations.Some people need someone else, and quickly. The way a drowning person needs a life ring. That kind of person should be especially careful to make sure the rescuing person knows what they're getting into. This is no role for an ingeneue. But if the newly alone person can find a way to keep it together *without* involving someone new, that's much better. It avoids complications, and lets the "dust settle" from the crashed relationship. Sometimes situations change unexpectedly, and if the newly alone person is already involved again, it can complicate matters. If and when the dust settles, it will be fairly obvious that stillness has arrived.There are those whose attitude is that marriage is for life, courtship should never be physical, and divorce means celibacy from that day forward. They are living in the same "real world" we are. But others don't share their view, or at least find themselves unable to uphold that ideal. No universal answer can be found. But plenty of people have experiences good and bad with various approaches. You can play the odds, or try to defy them; or better yet, do what you think best for your children. No earthly laws govern this--it's between you, your conscience and your god.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Just my two cents: Some people need someone else, and quickly. The way a drowning person needs a life ring. That kind of person should be especially careful to make sure the rescuing person knows what they're getting into. This is no role for an ingeneue. But if the newly alone person can find a way to keep it together *without* involving someone new, that's much better. It avoids complications, and lets the "dust settle" from the crashed relationship. Sometimes situations change unexpectedly, and if the newly alone person is already involved again, it can complicate matters. If and when the dust settles, it will be fairly obvious that stillness has arrived.There are those whose attitude is that marriage is for life, courtship should never be physical, and divorce means celibacy from that day forward. They are living in the same "real world" we are. But others don't share their view, or at least find themselves unable to uphold that ideal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. I've never said that anyone should be celibate, or that they should never date again. I understand that there are very few people who want (or need) to follow in my footsteps or make the choices I have. What I find abhorrent is selling the "dating option" without also presenting the potential risks. Especially if one is newly divorced. Even more so if they are a "drowning person" who needs a life-ring. To me, it is the same thing as saying "here it is--here's the life-ring---go for it!", then jumping in the water and finding out it is a Cheerio. Your choices have been different from mine, Sisyphus, but you don't see me picking on you. Correct? You are very good at presenting both sides. You have presented the potential consequences, and you haven't whined (much [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) about them. In addition, you are quite honest about your part in the marriage and have gone beyond the standard knee-jerk--"I know I made mistakes". I admire that about you. You and I have very different values, but at least you are honest about them and don't make excuses for your choices.

This is copied from a link <A HREF="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9410/articles/plant.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9410/articles/plant.html</A> in another thread (list of qualities...) "Corrupted modernity" chafes under restraint and accountability, says Thomas Oden: it displays a kind of "adolescent refusal of parenting." If we know the characteristic sins of the age, we can guess its foolish and fashionable assumptions-that morality is simply a matter of personal taste; that all silences need to be filled up with human chatter or background music; that 760 per cent of the American people are victims; that it is better to feel than to think; that rights are more important than responsibilities; that the right to choose, even among children, supersedes all other rights; that real liberty can be enjoyed without virtue; that self-reproach is for fogies; that God is our chum, or even our gofer, whose job is to make us rich or happy or religiously excited; that it is more satisfying to be envied than respected; that it is better for a politician or a preacher to be cheerful than truthful; that Christian worship fails unless it is fun."

TS,First off, who died and made you the Marriage Builders Police?I was not going to waste my time replying again after your disgusting "swapping fluids" comment, which was totally uncalled for, its one thing to debate, and disagree, but to be viscious and call names, you have a lot of issues, that is obvious.People come here for opinions. No one ever should take one single person's advice, but look at the whole and make THEIR OWN OPINION. This is a forum, a discussion, not a way of life, not a psychiatrist office, and certainly not a place to take advice totally from one person.Its no secret that I dated early on. Thats my life and my decision. I came to MB to save my marriage. I plan A'd. I put up with emotional and verbal abuse for years. I stayed for the wrong reason, I stayed for the kids, not because I was "in love" anymore. I'll always have some kind of old love for him, but not what it takes to stay married.There are a lot of people who date earlier than the divorce, and thats their right too. Some people believe that the marriage is over once the infidelity occurs. They are just afraid to be honest for fear of those who come here for a place to take out their anger on others.I learned a lot here about needs, and a lot about affairs too. I am not happy that it ended the way it did, but a year later, we all talk, and I speak to OW quite often. It never started out the ideal situation, but I think its come a long way and it turned out as best as it could have. It's also something we all continue to work at.I am not sure I always made the best choice to anyone else, but I did what was right for me. I have always been honest, and I don't care if you like what I have to say or not. The fact is we have 2 very different situations. There is not much you and I can relate on, as far as I know you were married twice, the first time to someone who cheated with a lot of women, and the second that you cheated on. I think the second husband was not going to stick around after the infidelity, and maybe you are angry at those of us who walk away because of that. I know one of them you think never loved you but I really don't pay that close attention to memorize everything around here, so those facts I'm not positive on. You have no kids, I have 3. You work with mostly men, I don't. You had 2 marriages I had one. You relate better to those who are still in a lot of pain and I relate better to those who are trying to move on with their life. We all have someone we relate to better or worse. We all can contribute something positive just not necessarily to the same people. You can single me out all you like if it makes you feel good, then you have a big problem and I did take what you said seriously and was pretty upset, but I'm past it now. I have never seen anyone use this board to insult and put down people before, but its obvious I'm not the only one who isn't happy with it.As for the other person you single out, which I would guess would be Sue, she went down an entirely different path than me but she is happy with her life. She deserves it. I am happy in my life, and I KNOW I deserve it. Everyone here deserves to be happy and I think we've all suffered PLENTY of misery, which is what brought us here together. I don't get kicks out of inflicting misery on others and I hope yours doesn't expand because I think this post would be a shame for a new person just coming to the boards. If I saw nonsense like it when I came, I wouldn't have returned. SO my appologies to those who have had to be subject to whatever grudge you hold against me but I am not going to appologize for my life decisions. I know I'm not the first one in this forum to date before the divorce is final. I'm not going to be the last. Divorce is never pleasant, when children are involved and I don't remember word for word what you said about your marriage never being an "it", but your not going to save the world or put a stop to unnecessary divorces. You can speak your mind but leave the insults out.

This IS, however, an appropriate place to debate the validity of statements such as: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I stayed for the wrong reason, I stayed for the kids, not because I was "in love" anymore. I'll always have some kind of old love for him, but not what it takes to stay married.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>One could certainly take lengthy issue with this statement, but that subject has been covered quite well in the numerous articles on this web site. [This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 15, 2001).]

I can't believe the direction these threads can take. How we went from asking what do u see when u look at your ex to dating again. That seems to be a very sore area here. For what its worth I totally agree with waiting until you have exercised most of the demons of your past marriage. I pretty much feel that way because I would never want to hurt anyone the way I've been hurt. I can't say that I haven't thought about new relationships. I wouldn't be human if I didn't think about it. I just know that I have alot to get over first before I bring somebody else into my life. Not to mention my kids, who will be dealing with a new step-mother soon. The last thing they need to deal with is another man in their lives. BUT that doesn't mean that it is not right for someone else. Nor do I feel that if a person does date while being seperated it says they didn't really try to save their marriage. If you weren't there don't judge. I think we have gone past the just friendly argueing here. Jill------------------ live for today for there may not be a tomorrow

How did I miss this thread...I guess I purposely overlooked it because I no longer care how my ex looks...It just didn't work out! <kidding stu>You know me well enough to know that I too don't see this as an IT...The reality is I saw that it is impossible for me to be married to woman that doesn't want to be married to MECheating is her easy way out...I have owned every once of my behavior that led to her cheating...she didn't give a ****!! Her feelings were gone and that was that...What is there left to do...either go on til the bitter end...or find a new way of life...I CHOSE the latter...The person paying the tab for all this is my darling daughter...I don't buy all the psyco-babble about kids being ok and are stronger...blah...blah..blah..ad nausium!!!Kids survive..that's it!! Some are fortunate and thrive...most pay a lifelong tab of guilt!!My only Hope is that I can teach my daughter that marriage is serious and needs to be worked at...Would I take my W back...I think not...A) I haven't the strength to relive all the pain I have walked through...and B) I just cannot see myself getting gray with her anymore...She Killed ALL of my love for her...Sure I could try, however I don't think she would...and besides she now has her 18 yr old soul-mate to live with...Am I better because of my divorce...no I'm better in spite of my divorce...Some of you know what I have been through in my life. I know I have shared with TS alot of that and she might attest to the struggles I have overcome. I am better because I continue to look inward and try to overcome my defects of character...I can say my life is better today becuase of that very thing...Know what??? I'll be saying next year that my life is better than it ever has been, because of my constant vigilance to move forward...I know I will carry the scars of my divorce for ever...They will remind of the pain and help me not to make those same mistakes...When will I get in a new relationship?? When one finds me!! I do know that I love myself in spite of my defects...I also know that I cannot love another until I love myself...Am I ready...Who knows...Will I be honest enough to share this with another...You bet your [censored]!!I see alot of folk getting there toes stepped on in this thread...When I get mine stepped on, I think ouch, maybe I shouldn't have had them out there...Then I take a good hard look at why they were stepped on...TS...keep steppin on mine if they're out there...That is what I love about you!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I think MB police is too harsh...how bout the MB toe-cruncher [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

IMO when we come here we need to be honest, open minded and willing!! We are each others eyes and ears!!I love you all very much and I'm grateful you're a part of my life! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Bill ------------------ May the roads rise to meet you, May the winds always be at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields, And until we meet again, May god hold you In the hollow of his hand.[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited January 15, 2001).]

You know I haven't seen my STBX for a couple of months. I can tell you the image I do have of him is a man who is a shell. Who is lost. He has no love for himself, no self respect and is on a self destructive path. He was in the process of taking me down with him. He has lost himself to the point where fancy clothes with name brands on them and big fancy prices to go with them are important... being part of the fast rich and famous club is more important than Domino's pizza and a movie after a long hard week. I do feel bad for him...because I didn't see the lack of love he had for himself. He really loathes himself. And we all know if you can't love yourself how can you love others...So I see a shell. It's really too bad.

I'll post an answer to the question, since my husband has again announced he is seeing a lawyer for divorce.I see a man with so much potential, so much intelligence, so much caring, so much pain... running away from all that he knows and loves and all that he has held important in his life. He thinks that if he runs, he will become happy again. He doesn't realize that his happiness must come from within himself. I see a man who has lowered himself to be with a person of foul moral fiber and no interest in anything but herself, a man who continues to walk in the fog of infidelity.And it breaks my heart into tiny little pieces.------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Well here goes:My STBX ... What do I see now?I see a very weak confused man that says he's trying to do the right thing but only as long as he isn't inconvenienced or felt confronted with his actions, a man who is easily lead and frequently takes the path of least resistence regardless of who he may be stepping on. A man who blames everyone else for his bad decisions and life long mistakes and looks to women for his emotional strength to bail him out of his messes. A man who excuses himself for several trangressions touting he was burned by which ever woman he happens to be at odds with at the moment.I just see a very weak man and a huge disappointment.Jo

Bill, Very nice post. OK I'll revise it to toe cruncher. I was waiting til I was less upset to reply to that post but I suppose I should have waited a bit longer.However, I know of a few people who post on the boards who in fact HAVE had relationships, flings, or whatever you want to call them, I suspect there is a lot of relationships within MB as well, and some do not mention it on the board. The reason I say this is from private emails I have gotten from people who are afraid to tell the truth on the board. I know I have always been honest on the boards and also that my opinion of my marriage has changed drastically from the start of this and probably will be different after another year. I'm sure that's all part of the process, and also moving from denial to some form of acceptance, rather than only holding onto hope of one outcome.I was thinking about Nellie's comment too, about staying for the kids, and I turned it around. I know I would not want my ex to have stayed strictly because of the kids in the end, or to return for them only, so part of my staying for them to avoid broken home was not correct either. This site had a million points to debate on, the important thing is being considerate in the process and leave the insults out. I hope that people would come here and feel safe enough to be honest, because that's the only way to heal and get a reply that has to do with the topic you post anyhow.Rtn2, good topic when it started though.Dana

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jillybean36: BUT that doesn't mean that it is not right for someone else. Nor do I feel that if a person does date while being seperated it says they didn't really try to save their marriage. If you weren't there don't judge. I think we have gone past the just friendly argueing here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>While I am not sure which two members (I suspect more) you are specifically referring to who have doled out advice to newly divorced people (regarding dating), I suppose I am one person who received advice. I did date during my divorce proceedings; judge me if you will: I had a lunch date on the day of my hearing. Do I regret it? Yeah, sometimes, but I learned more from that experience than any other. My whole process was different from some here. My H left in June and I was divorced by November. Many others plan A'd even through the divorce and well after. Years of heartache and devotion. I respect and admire them tremendously. My plan A lasted only from June-October--the stretch of our separation. Is that not enough time? Well, some might say, but EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. I would still be married if my H had not made that choice to call for a divorce in September. I am grateful that no one here has ever said to me: "Hey, you didn't do it right, you lazy slob. Do you even KNOW what plan A is?" There is always more that one can do. I could remain faithful to my death bed and never give up hope that we would reconcile, but there comes a time when someone else's choice becomes your reality and you must accept it or live in utter misery, dissapointment and fairy land forever. Someone here said there is a difference between letting go and giving up. A fine line, but still a distinction. Some are still holding out hope for reconciliation even now. That is their choice. I suppose your condemnation includes me because I can say that if my ex were to come back to me to say he wanted to reconcile, I would say no. Why? Good question. I could list a million reasons, but I suspect that none would be quite good enough for you. One thing my H said to me: "Counseling could have helped, but I am happy now so it doesn't matter." I honestly cannot think that one person here could have uttered those words himself. He has to live with that "truth." But take off the part after the second conjunction (so) and I could make that statement. It does matter and always will. Terri asked what your prescription for suffering would be for her before her attempts were valid? Validity is to be determined only by the person who is living the experience. I don't believe that anyone's advice is detrimental or hurtful. Everyone heals differently. You are healing by staying away from men, immersing yourself in your studies, and analyzing others' relationships from the outside, visiting this board, and considering adoption and other life options. While that may work for you, there may be others here who go out on dates with 20 men/women, stay home and eat potato chips every Friday night, join a weekly yoga class, or start skydiving for kicks. What if I said that you are trying to find fulfillment in academia to compensate for, let's say, low self esteem, bitterness, a sense of failure, fear of abandonment, penis envy, small feet?? (I'm not, but for argument's sake. . . .)

TS, I have never had a casual thinking about divorce, again, anyone can read a history of my posts and can see that. I object that you put your own twist to my words. I object to your comment about my kids. We can agree to disagree, that is fine with me. You are in your own stage of recovery, and where you are is a good place for you. I am in a different place in my recovery, which is good for me. It is the personal attacks which are so bad. ------------------ Susan

gsd,"What if I said that you are trying to find fulfillment in academia to compensate for, let's say, low self esteem, bitterness, a sense of failure, fear of abandonment, penis envy, small feet?? (I'm not, but for argument's sake. . . .)"I'd laugh and say "Hmmm. Mayyyy-be" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

danaB, you said: "I think the second husband was not going to stick around after the infidelity, and maybe you are angry at those of us who walk away because of that."He was perfectly within his rights to walk away, but that is not what he did. He lied about an EA (and maybe a PA) before my confession. He went on a vacation with this woman within about 3-4 weeks after my confession, then stuck around and treated me like crap so he could tell his friends and family he "tried to save his marriage". THEN he wants to claim fidelity. Like you appear to be doing right now. What I'm opposed to is your flagrant, unremorseful, hypocrisy and double-standard. What you did is no different than what your H did. To top it off, you now say you didn't really love him. You should be thanking him for doing the dirty-work for you. Like my ex, you want to claim victim status, yet go out and do as you please while still married. Sorry, I don't buy it. I thought the "swapping fluids" comment was actually more polite than what I was really thinking. The fact that it bothers you so much might be worth evaluating.Ok, I'm making a mental note to myself now...When responding to DanaB's posts only say what she wants to hear and what will make her feel good. Don't challenge her or anyone else here, and CERTAINLY don't point out any areas in their lives where they are not quite fessing up. Personally, I like being challenged. I don't take your comments to heart. If something someone says bothers me, it is obviously an area I need to work on....Like why it bothers me when so-called betrayed hold a double standard about infidelity. Yep. I could stand to work on that.

GSD:Thanks for the laugh!! The reference to "small feet" just made me crack up. I think we need some more humor here.Jen

Dana B and The Student,Dare I say, "Ladies, take it outside already."Of the 100 odd replies to this topic (from which you both have completely digressed), a good majority are about the two of you throwing stones at each other.I'm going to step out on a limb and speak for most of us who read and post regularly and say ENOUGH! Frankly, I've had enough petty bickering in my own personal life to last me til my dying days...if you two want to continue your brawl, take it private and swap email addresses or go to MSN Messenger and duke it out there.I swear it's like putting up a mirror to my own marriage watching two (I'm going to be blunt) stubborn individuals fight to the death to convince the other of the "rightness" of their own viewpoint. Just agree to disagree already. Or just drop the discussion altogether. Be the bigger person and resist the urge to respond when a button is being pushed... Or get a divorce from each other! It's time to move on and "let go."Love both your posts when you are helpful to others, but enough already...okay?Lisa (preparing to be raked over the coals...)[This message has been edited by soon2b_alone (edited January 17, 2001).]

TS,I never said I didn't love him, I said I didn't love him the way a wife should any longer. Love can change, and it does. Kids play a major role in that. I felt like a victim when it all happened, but as one of my posts I stated I learned a lot and I am willing to accept responsibility for my part. Obviously I didn't meet his needs as good as I could of, or this wouldn't happen. I didn't know a thing about needs or any of these other concepts until after it was too late. I don't care how unhappy he was, there is no excuse for any man to leave his family on Xmas day though. He was not abused. It was a holiday that he has scarred the children for life on. A few weeks before the incident, he thanked me for sticking around all those years and putting up with his drugs, alcohol, whatever and that he was never going to leave. Not that I really believed it, but I certainly had no clue at that time of an affair. The only real victims are the children as far as I'm concerned. But most definetly, anyone who has been cheated on, does feel like a victim when it happens. Then you try and find out why it happened and learn that it does indeed take 2 people. In the meantime, I now get along with OW , she's not my best friend, and never will be, but we tolerate each other. Thats a lot because many people here would never talk to OW. My ex continues to tell me he loves me. He still wants to be intimate, (yuck),Tells my kids, and his family that too. Even though we are divorced, he tells me I will always be his wife, and that we will get back together in a few years again. I have NO clue why he thinks this, but I decided a long time ago I couldn't figure him out. It's actually all irrelevant at this point, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Also, as far as dating, we've discussed this on other posts, (not just you and I, several people) that many people define a date differently. Going on one dinner with someone, that is a date. A date doesn't mean someone has sex. Just because you have a boyfriend doesn't mean you have sex. Most people do after a period of time, but that's not a given. There was a time that I did try something out from comments here at MB and that was learning to discover ways to be intimate/affectionate without sex. I did that for a while, and I actually learned a lot and found that there are plenty of ways to accomplish that. I don't know where you get this opinion of me that everything is about sex, because its not. Sure it's important when in a serious relationship, "If" that is important to both people, but its not the number one thing in life.

Lisa,Appologies to you, I didn't see your post before I replied here. I am not going to rake you over the coals! I have never had a problem on the boards with anyone but one, I suppose I just got tired of nasty replies for almost 6 months and this post was my breaking point.Dana

Dear Forum Members:I see several of you have tried to make peace here and I thank you. Some of you have contacted Steve and sent email to me as well. Your concerns have not gone unnoticed and the feed back is appreciated. Please, feel free to contact us if this continues.I am locking this thread to end the verbal assault, and do hope it stops here. Some of you need to remember this forum is a privilege, not a right.Sincerely,Magnolia