Student, <P>You have made several negative and personal statements about those of us who have moved on, as if we did not want our marriages, as if we so easily want to go to another relationship, like we have no idea how this affects our kids, etc. <P>Yes, my X came to me several tims during the marriage and separation and asked to reconcile. Many times I did. He continued the affair. But after the last separation, I told him the only way I would be interested in reconciling was if the OW was out of the pictue and we created a plan to save our marriage. I was counseling with Steve H at the time. <P>He agreed, and after again another letter to her telling her it was over, and him telling me that he wanted me back, I heard a conversation they had, secretly recorded. He had full intent to continue with her, he just wanted to get his hooks in me financially, and figure out what to do with the business. His words. No talk to her about wanting his mariage back, no talk about his "love" for me, etc. <P>I did not say anything to him. I did a perfect Plan A. He was to fill out the questionaire about EN and send to Steve. I did mine. He never did his. I told Steve about the conversation I overheard.He recommended I go to Plan B. I remained steadfast but he allowed the divorce clock to continue. On the day it was to be final, I told him we could wait, we could see if we could work it out/ I was still willing. He told me, no, he wanted the divorce. He feels remorse, just as I do. But he does not want a marriage to me anymore.<P>My comment about pain was that you have felt incredible pain over yours. <P>But you seem to think because I am trying to move on with my life that I have never felt much pain. MY pain is 10 times what your would ever be, because of those two kids. While, if your X decides not to reconcile with you, you never have to see him again, people with kids have to deal with those spouses forever. The kids are a constant reminder of a broken promise, marriage, and dreams for those kids. <P>We all come here to heal. While there are some here continuing to hold the door open for their spouses, others of us are divorced and are moving on. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ANY OF THESE CHOICES! You certainly do have a lot of healing to do, as we all do. But try to tone down your judgements about the situation others are in. NONE of us are here because we want to be. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Looking at my exH I see a man who found it easier to be with his OW then to try and reconcile with his wife of 12 years. I see an intellectually arrogant man who sees himself as superior to most people and is very uncomfortable in most social situations. I see a man who can decide all by himself that counseling would not help our marriage and did not want to even try. <BR>Basically I see a very troubled person with a lot of issues that he does not want to face. I see a man who is very unhappy with himself and tries to derive his happiness through others. I see a man who blames others for his unhappiness and also is very critical to those who are closest to him. I see a man who despite all of his lies, deception and betrayal (adultery) in our marriage expects to get validation for his behavior from his family and co-workers.<BR>I see a man that I am glad is out of my life and is someone else's problem now.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>You have been honest about not putting everything you had into your marriage. I trust that you are honest with your girlfriends that they are probably temporary as well. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The first assertion is *not* what I thought at the time ... it is what I have come to believe in retrospect. It is still *no* justification for her divorcing me; it is merely a recognition of my own fallability and failings. The second assertion is also false ... I have no sense that my new GF will be temporary.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I met a guy who might have a little bit in common with you. He also doesn't (really) believe that marriage is for life and doesn't believe that divorce is all that bad.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I subscribe to neither view. I do, however, realize that (a) I couldn't chain my XW to our marriage; and (b) it's happened and I have to not let it be the end of the world, even though it may still feel like it.<P>And in the interim relationship, I was the one mostly being used (financially, physically, emotionally and otherwise), not that I didn't obviously have needs that were met. I determined however, that some things I needed from her could not be met by her. My financial support, however, continued well past the end of our romantic involvement because she was, and is, a friend.<P>I have recently come to speak quite openly of my own fears ... is your hostility to those who date again an effort to justify *not* doing something that *you* fear? I'm not saying it's necessarily right for you to do so, but it is OK (and healthy) to recognize and admit your fear, if fear be found in your heart.

I don't even recognize my ex when I look at him anymore. Its as if he's a different person, which is partly why I think it was possible for me to let go and go on in life.<P>No one here should have to defend themselves to anyone and it seems to me that many times we are forced to do that.<P>I agree with Sue and her views on this topic and I would much rather deal with the divorce, accept it and move on, and spend my time and hope on something better. I also don't want to turn into some bitter ex wife because of this. <P>Dana<BR>

hello, i'm new to this site so this post might not be very smooth ,but here we go. i have enjoyed reading your posts but can't help but be confused at times.please forgive me for what i'm about to write,but we all must remember that the posts we read are only one side of a multisided story.i'm the one who left,it is not as easy as many posts make it out to be.it was the single hardest thing i ever did in my life.when you feel that you must leave your children to be able to keep your sanity and your job[so you can feed and shelter them]you are torn in a way that you would not wish on anyone.leaving means crying yourself to sleep every night,then trying to dry your eyes before you go to work the next day.this is a daily event.when is enough too much?is there a point when you don't think you can survive in your present situation?how many years could you sleep alone in the basement of your home?how many times could you be told to"get out',"find someone else".how many nights could you be alone while your spouse was in their room with the door locked, alone except with their narcotics.how many nights could you eat your wendy's or your leftover pizza alone while your spouse talked on the phone? how many weekends could you spend with your kids and never have a partner...they were home, not there making the "intact family".how many years could you go with never a touch,a kiss, or more importantly an "i love you"? how many years could you work 80 or more hours a week and still not be able to meet someone's credit card bills?some of you speak of trying and commitment, but when 2 doctors make the diagnosis of bipolar disorder and a person refuses to receive treatment,what do you do?when someone would rather trade psych meds with the people at church than take what the dr ordered there is not much you can do. the ow does not always come into your life but you can be pushed into theirs,everyone of us wants to feel that we are valued.when you leave the house in the morning with someone screaming"you f---ing bas---d" out in the driveway in front of the neighbors,you can't believe what it's like to get a phone call from someone who cares about you.after years of receiving calls at work"where the hell are you?when will yo be home?"it's something to get a call"i know you are tired, drive carefuly". i have not yet begun to tell you what it is like when you can't see you kids,there is no greater pain.how would you feel if your spouse told your chidren"daddy does not love you anymore he picked a new family".what would you do when your stbx told the kids about the divorce with all of their freinds present?please be careful, a person just does not "walk out" of 15 years of marriage and 3 kids they adore more than anything, if the situation is not unbearable. i know what you are thinking!why did you not take the kids? because the courts awarded my stbx with such a large sum that to meet the bill i must leave the house before the school bus comes and get home very late,long after school is out.i felt the kids would still be better of with a parent than a nanny.believe me!i would love to have my kids but they have to eat and have a place to live.this next item may scare you.my stbx is one of the people the always writes about prayer and god,you would never think that their behavior is what i have related above.one psychiatrist told me that with bipolar disorder all kinds of stories may be told.one last note.the ow,leaving,divorce,etc is not my first choice.my first choice would to be home with my spouse of 15+ years and my kids,so please remember that not all those that leave are shallow, cruel,and heartless.some are just broken hearted and broken,and feel all of the agony that you feel. thank you for listening.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanaB:<BR><B>No one here should have to defend themselves to anyone and it seems to me that many times we are forced to do that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm happy to defend myself. If I'm out of line, I will eventually find that my premises or reasoning are faulty, and won't take me from where I am to where I want to go. No one should be afraid of that. It stops everything from bloody noses on the playground to nuclear exchanges.<P>Albert Brooks once made a funny and touching movie called "Defending Your Life" about being called on the carpet in the afterlife.

Wow EVISERATED<P>What a post with so many possibilities in one reading. I left my ex as well. No it isn't easy leaving it was hard for me too. The months that i contemplated leaving I would look at my daughters picture and cry saying I can't do this to her. I remember just before i finally spoke those words of separation sitting on the bathroom floor crying and saying to him we need help and i feel alone, don't you love me? He hugged me and said he loved me and went to work just like that. But never took what i said seriously. I feel like i begged for my marriage to work. In the end i just looked at how i was treating him because i was so full of anger i felt leaving was better than me feeling disappointed and hurt. As well as him receiving personal attacks because i was so frustrated. I feel awful for what i put him through and i wish we could "talk" even when we spent time together i still couldn't bring the words to him and when i tried all i did was offend.<P>It's like we love each other but we just can't seem to connect 100% of the time.<BR>I don't hold a grudge or hate him. I know he tried his best. Moving on is HEALTHIER for all three of us (child is the third party)<BR>But easy it is not.<p>[This message has been edited by rtn2 (edited January 05, 2001).]

sue,<P>Like I said. It was my (previous) understanding that your ex wanted to reconcile with good intentions. You made it clear before my last post that he did not. I even asked you to "please forgive me" for making that mistake. Your and my definition of "moving on" has always been different, and that is where we tend to butt heads. <P>It is silly to sit here and compare whose pain is worse. I have no clue what pain you went through, and you have no clue what pain I went through. The only gauge I have is people's actions. When I see people quickly rushing out for a new relationship and vehemently defend it, my impression is that they didn't love their ex that much. Any warm body will do--basically. <P>Before you even say it, I'll fill in...When I had my one night stand, I will completely admit that I was not acting in a loving way towards my ex. One could argue that I didn't love him if I was capable of doing that. The difference is...I don't vehemently defend my right to have an affair when I was hurting. Nor do I propose that finding someone new is the solution to my problems, is now an indicator of healing, or anything else. You appear to equate dating with moving on and healing. I don't. It is that simple. <P>So, I will continue to question both betrayers and betrayed about their commitment, choices, and motives. I don't accept that the person who has sex outside the marriage first is the one who has done or is doing the most damage in a marriage. Mainly because good people sometimes make bad choices. Bad or irresponsible people can also be very good at giving the appearance of being "faithful". <P>DanaB,<BR>You said in a different thread that you loved your ex like a "brother" and not in a romantic way. So, I'm not surprised that you are looking forward to and enjoying your single life. You have no reason to be a bitter ex-wife because you didn't feel like a wife in the first place, according to you. Whose fault is that? Yours for marrying him? How sad it must have been for him to be married to someone who didn't really love him all these years. So, you were just going through the motions? He had an affair, which gave the excuse you needed to bail? Which is it? Either you loved him and wanted your marriage or you are happy to be rid of him. You seem happy to be rid of him. Ok. That is fine. Just don't whine about his affair or how he left cause he did the dirty work of ending your marriage. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I don't accept that the person who has sex outside the marriage first is the one who has done or is doing the most damage in a marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will agree with you on this. But I will also point out, that like others of us on this board, where you stand has a great deal to do with where you're sitting (as an adulteress [I use this word with probably less opprobrium than it seems, but as something more than a technical term--you did wrong, but not monstrous, unforgivable wrong], your position is necessary if you are to retain a decent self-image)<BR>

Sisyphus,<P>The old timers here know that I was the "betrayed" in my first marriage. He had sex with over 20 women within a year and a half. I didn't want that divorce either. He didn't want to go to counseling and instead divorced me. <P>My second ex had a "revenge" affair within a month of my confession with a woman he had worked with while we were apart for the 4 months prior. One could argue (and I have some evidence) that he at least was having an emotional affair with this woman before my own affair. On top of that, he proceeded to say and do some of the most heinous things after my confession that I have ever experienced (like telling me to kill myself, calling me a mutilation, two incidents of physical abuse). That, and much worse, continued for nearly a year before he "didn't feel like punishing me anymore" --- his words. Within two weeks of making that statement, he filed for divorce. His timing also coincided with my mother's diagnosis of cancer (which I had just found out about the week before). He conveniently arranged to have the court date set on our anniversary date. When I asked him to move it, he refused. To this day, he insists he never (sexually) cheated on me. As a result, my definition of betrayal naturally includes actions that have nothing to do with sex outside the marriage. When I cheated on my ex, I was not directly trying to hurt him. I was guilty of losing faith and of being selfish, thoughtless, weak, and reckless. As it turns out, I hurt myself much more than I ever hurt him.<P>However, when my ex directly and repeatedly attacked me (both physically and verbally) his intent was to destroy me by any methods necessary. Only after he had succeeded in breaking me down to a level he could be satisfied with, did he finally tire of me. Of course, he was helped along by my complacence and stubborn will to maintain my marriage. <P>My first ex never did those things and was very gentle with me. I believe my first ex loved me more than my second ex, but just wasn't honest with himself about his preferred lifestyle before marrying me. I naively "assumed" that marriage and monogamy went together. What did I know? I was only 21. He suggested we have an open marriage, which I tried for awhile for his sake. <P>so, my words come from experience from being on both sides, not just from my recent experience. <P>My biggest personal challenge right now is that I appear to be unable to choose men who will treat me well. I haven't figured out why that is just yet. I had a pretty crappy childhood (father was a violent alcoholic) so there is alot of junk I personally have to overcome. Still, even though neither ex was a saint--and neither was I--marriage to me meant continuing to help each other with our collective BS. We both had some, and after the time we spent together, as GDP suggests, it seems we could have been pretty effective. I really just don't feel like starting over with someone new and going through all of this again. My exes seem to think that starting with someone new will make their problems go away. The way I see it, we had just gotten started and they ditched and ran as soon as it got too close to "home" for them. I freaked out too when I got scared in my marriage, but realized very quickly what I was doing and decided I needed to fix whatever it is that is plaguing me once and for all. If that now means being "alone" the rest of my life because neither of my exes wanted to join me in the challenge, then so be it. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>On top of that, he proceeded to say and do some of the most heinous things after my confession that I have ever experienced (like telling me to kill myself, calling me a mutilation, two incidents of physical abuse).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That last hit home. In making it clear how badly she wanted to leave, one of the things my XW asked me during dinner at a sidewalk cafe was "do you want me to start cutting myself again, or kill myself?" (she had done the former--but years before we knew each other) Of course, this was the moment when I really started to believe I had to let her go, for her sake. In my dark moments, I sometimes feel like going back in time and saying "Here, take this X-acto blade and go to it!" But that is only my anger. <P>Physical abuse happened in our marriage ... she would occasionally have cortisone injections into a joint. Within a couple of weeks, there would be emotional rebound, and I have been verbally abused, hit, had my crotch grabbed, etc. Once in such a tussle on the bed, I grabbed and squeezed an arthritis-inflamed ankle on purpose. A low point for me. On other occasions when she was in these states of rage, I did block doors, etc. until she calmed down (didn't want her driving like that, or outside the house even). I never raised my hand to her, however. I'm not proud of the fact ... I don't think anyone has a right to be proud merely that they did *not* commit a crime, especially when the provocation was merely words.<P>There were times in our marriage when I began to think "A**hole" was my name. That I fought my emotions successfully so as to seem to let it roll off me only caused her to use it more. Because of how her family was, she *expected* me to yell back; but I even tried that ... and it would cause me to start laughing at my own seeming foolishness. When I was finally yelling for real at the end of our marriage, it was so thermonuclear I don't know how she withstood it (but I guess that having grown up in her family, it was probably not as big a deal to her as *I* might have thought).<P>I always believed that because she had no ability to do much in the way of *physical* damage (and because of the drugs), such incidents were to be dismissed. If I had possessed good sense early, I would have seen that at least *I* needed therapy as a result of them ... perhaps they were more damaging to me than they were to her. Even though I could easily absorb or ward off her blows, my psyche was a lot more vulnerable than that.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eviscerated:<B>...when is enough too much? is there a point when you don't think you can survive in your present situation? ...some of you speak of trying and commitment, but when 2 doctors make the diagnosis of bipolar disorder and a person refuses to receive treatment,what do you do? ...a person just does not "walk out" of 15 years of marriage and 3 kids they adore more than anything, if the situation is not unbearable.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The first time my wife moved out of our house it was her idea and her choice, but it was also with my approval. I really didn't wanted her to do it, but my wife said she needed time to heal, and I thought she might be right. In fact, it turns out that I needed the time to heal as well, since it was during those six months we were living apart (but still interacting with each other) that I finally got control over my depression.<P>When my wife moved back in, her level of tension immediately went back up, and looking at it in retrospect, I don't think it was a wise move. She had gotten into the habit of projecting her negative feelings about herself onto me, and trying to work on our relationship was interfering with her ability to understand and work on herself.<P>What's my point in saying all this? Just that sometimes separating yourself from a situation is a good and healthy thing to do. And enabling someone to behave irresponsibly does not help either the enabled or the enabler. If you've tried to help in every way you can, and that help is refused or abused, then you have to do everything you can to make your spouse take responsibility for him- or herself. That's the principle that Plan A and Plan B are based on.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>i know what you are thinking! why did you not take the kids? because the courts awarded my stbx with such a large sum that to meet the bill i must leave the house before the school bus comes and get home very late, long after school is out.i felt the kids would still be better of with a parent than a nanny.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This may have been a mistake. I'm not sure that leaving your kids with someone with a diagnosed, dangerous mental illness is a good idea. The courts tend to award money on the basis of current income, but if you were to reduce your income in a way that allows you to spend more time with your kids, you might find that you can get the award adjusted. I'm not a lawyer, so I really don't know. But if I were you, I would do everything I could possibly do to get custody of my kids.<BR>

Just so it's clear, I don't have any problem with my wife's moving out, and I have come to believe that her instincts were right when they told her to get away from me. I believe that my own attempts to work on our marriage and to get her back ended up doing her harm. It's dangerous to try to build a relationship when your ego boundaries have crumbled to the point that you know longer know who you are.<P>Where I believe my wife went wrong is in assuming that getting away from me would in and of itself solve any problems for her. It won't. She merely knows that something is wrong, but she doesn't know what. She is flailing away at imagined dangers, not realizing that she is actually running from herself.<P>If my wife ever stops running, and allows her heart to catch up with her, I think it would still probably take years before she could be ready to resume an intimate relationship with me.<P>But that's OK. I'm a patient guy.<BR>

Running away from a situation diffently catches up to you. I've done it several times in my. I've always been accused of being mean, because when people need help/advice they ask and i tell them dead nuts.<BR>I hope to curve my dead nuts approach with a little more tact BUT that'll take time. <P>But i will never again give anyone power over me.<P>Another thing when i look at my ex i see someone who is quick to put me in place with judgment and harsh words. But fails to look inward at his own short comings.<P>Last time i checked we are all human and capable of growth and learning but you have to start from inside first. That much he was right about.<P>LOL<P>I remember telling my ex when we separated that i had to do this as he begged me to stay. I told him i had to work on myself because i was so angry. Today i know exactly where the anger is and I'm diffusing it slowly. But it has taken me a long time to start healing. I'm sorry i hurt him in trying to be a better person. But i don't regret trying to be more at peace within myself. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by rtn2 (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> Physical abuse happened in our marriage ... she would occasionally have cortisone injections into a joint ..., and I have been verbally abused, hit, had my crotch grabbed, etc. Once in such a tussle on the bed, I grabbed and squeezed an arthritis-inflamed ankle on purpose. A low point for me. On other occasions when she was in these states of rage, I did block doors, etc. until she calmed down (didn't want her driving like that, or outside the house even). <P>I always believed that because she had no ability to do much in the way of *physical* damage (and because of the drugs), such incidents were to be dismissed. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just noticed something strange in my prior post. Although I was willing to write what *I* did, I was not willing to use the third person when I described what *she* did. I wrote that those things happened to me, but I could not make her the explicit subject of the sentence and write that *she* did them. It makes my eyes tear up to even *approach* such statements now. The closest I got before was in that last paragraph, and even then I was forced to *diminish* what she did to me. <P>I don't quite know why these particular memories evoke such strong feelings that I should want to dissasociate her from her actions. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I just noticed something strange in my prior post. Although I was willing to write what *I* did, I was not willing to use the third person when I described what *she* did. I wrote that those things happened to me, but I could not make her the explicit subject of the sentence and write that *she* did them.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have this same kind of problem. It's hard to believe or acknowledge that the person you love and who loved/loves you could be capable of such actions. So I tend to think of my wife's desperation or panic being the actual perpetrator. As if some demon had possessed her, and she doesn't really know what she's doing.<P>And yet, she chose her actions and is responsible for them.<P>I think for me this may be the remnants of a denial that contributed to my depression. Deep inside I believed that because I loved my wife, I was not allowed to be angry with her. I thought if I didn't see her through the proverbial rose-colored glasses, I might lose my love for her.<P>Fortunately, I found that my fears were unfounded. I still have an automatic tendency to excuse or diminish my wife's cruel actions, but even when I force myself to look at them in all their ugliness, my love for my wife is as strong as ever.<P>My trust, on the other hand...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rtn2:<BR><B>But i will never again give anyone power over me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's called establishing boundaries. They're good, and important, and although an occasional trespass is probably inevitable, someone who really loves you will respect them.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>i know what you are thinking! why did you not take the kids? because the courts awarded my stbx with such a large sum that to meet the bill i must leave the house before the school bus comes and get home very late, long after school is out.i felt the kids would still be better of with a parent than a nanny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your wife was awarded this money while you were still living at home? That seems rather unusual. And if you had custody, wouldn't she be awarded less or no alimony, and be paying you child support? <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B> Your wife was awarded this money while you were still living at home? That seems rather unusual. And if you had custody, wouldn't she be awarded less or no alimony, and be paying you child support? <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>the court awards support based on the previous years income and it does not change. the court said "even if you get ill or have a nervous breakdown the award does not change".because she has not worked in a few years the court assumes that she can only make minimum wage which calculates out to be 2%of the child support.there is no way she could even support herself.i must admit that i entered into the custody"agreement"in good faith,thinking that if i made their lives financialy sound she would "allow" me to see the kids.YEAH RIGHT.the courts can enforce thesupport order but the visitation deal is very vague.<P>

If you had custody, there would be no child support, so saying that you had to give up custody because you had to pay so much child support does not make much sense.<P>And, btw, my H made almost 100 thousand dollars in 1999. In the middle of this year he got laid off. The court awarded child support based only on his unemployment income, which combined with my income brings the six children and me just about to the poverty level. My lawyer said that the courts will not make the non-custodial parent pay more than he can reasonably comfortably afford, even if it means the children starve. And it makes no difference when the non-custodial parent gets to share expenses with someone who is rich enough that he gets to have a standard of living far better than what we ever had. <P>In every state, visitation and child support are not connected. She can not withhold visitation if you do not pay, and you can not refuse to pay if she withholds child support.