sue,<BR>you are absolutely right. I don't need to convince you. <P>While you are busy telling me what to do and say, I'll follow with one of my own...<P>Next time you get "married", don't bother to make the promise "Till death do us part", "for better or worse", "in sickness and in health", or "love, honour, and cherish". You obviously don't have the stomach for it. So friggin' what? You kept one out of---what is it---five? You kept the fidelity vow. Good for you. Right on. Your average is 20%.<P>If you were completely honest, you'll say "I'll be here for you as long as you meet my needs". Now that would really be the truth. <BR>There is no "it" in "it didn't work". People make choices. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 09, 2001).]

TS<P>You are really a sick, sick individual. You are bitter and pathetic individual who makes herself feel better by attacking others. You need serious help. Please do the world a favor and never get involved in another relationship and never have children. You have nothing of value to offer here. I have written an email to S Harley hopefully others will too your personal attacks are not acceptable here.

kalgrl,<P>Well, you have a right to your opinion. If I'm bitter about anything, it is the fact that so many marriages in our country end in divorce. The fact that so many find it so easy to "move on" and say "it just didn't work out" makes it that much easier for those who are facing a crisis in their marriage to give up. After all, vows are only meant to be kept when it is easy and feels good, right? <P>The reason why I'm so vehement about this is because (IMO) people who say "it just didn't work out" really aren't taking responsibility for their choices. In reality, Sue (and some others who initiated divorce) didn't feel like trying anymore in her marriage. That is what it really comes down to. Other options were available. That is what she chose. Lets not whitewash it and pretend that it was just some unfortunate circumstance...some rude twist of fate or something. <P>There are many other people here who have chosen divorce. I have some very close friends (both here and off-line) who have chosen divorce whom I've not "attacked" as you say. Mostly because they aren't making up excuses for getting a divorce, they aren't minimizing it by saying it just didn't work out, and they take full responsibility for their choices in life.<P>My own mother today said to me "You just weren't with the right person." I said "Hooey. Marriage is what you make it." You see. I won't even let my own mother get away with that. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 09, 2001).]

Again, I say, <P>You don't know who tried and who didn't. There are many reasons for divorce, and I am sure most of the people here put great effort into saving their marriages and could not. It makes complete sense to me that most here have found this site because of wanting their marriages. <BR>If I had not"felt" like trying, I guess I shouldn't have spent many $ with Steve Harley in counseling. I guess I would have told him to leave at the first inkling of the affair. Nope, I stuck it out until HE choose the other woman over me. <P>I accept full responsibility for what I did or did not do in my marriage. But, that does not change the fact that HE had choices, too. I cannot change another person. I can only change myself. <P>You need to turn your anger over what you percieve as those of us wanting a life after divorce into something positive for yourself. It is hurtful to others when you are so judgemental and critical on a site that is here to help all of us heal. Again, you DON'T know what people have done to save their marriages. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

"You need to turn your anger over what you percieve as those of us wanting a life after divorce into something positive for yourself."<P>I'm not against people having a life after divorce. I'm AM against people selling others the idea that divorce is an "it" that didn't "work out". "IT" is choices that both people make. You didn't feel like trying anymore. Fine. Just admit it and stop pretending that someone twisted your arm and somehow forced you to end your marriage. Do you see me picking on Sisyphus? He came right out and admitted he didn't do all he could. You see I'm not harrassing him. How many others here are the ones who have chosen divorce? Lots. Many of those have chosen to date again too. So, why am I picking on you?<P>Not that it matters, but I actually do believe you did your best. I can't hate you because YOUR best may not be someone else's best. I'm just opposed to the nonchalant language you use when describing your divorce. I'm opposed to you selling the idea that you have made great gains in healing simply because you immediately jumped out of your marriage and into a relationship with someone you knew for 10 yrs. prior to your divorce and are happy with it. I'd call that a safety net. You stole third base, and you want to convince me you hit a triple. <P>As long as it is in my power, I will never fail to let anyone know what a tragedy divorce is. My marriage will never be an "it", that is for sure.

It would be wonderful to see that people could live upto their vows.<P>I don't deny that i failed in my attempt to reach a fulfilling relationship. But when you have new found "education" and "realization" how do you go where do you go, from that point?<P>If you see a thread, a connecting factor between your ex and you do you act? OR do you chaulk it upto "we were married once"

TS, I have read through this entire thread and I have to say that for the most part, I agree with what you say. What I don't agree with is the singling out of individuals that you have been doing here. We are each entitled to have opinions - and entitled to express them ...<P>But when expressing your opinions involves the need to vent AT others, then it becomes "personal" - and from what I understand about the way in which these forums are run, that is not acceptable. I would hate for you to wind up banned from one of the places where people probably understand the pain you have gone and are going through because you seem to need each of us to acknowledge that you are right.<P>You remind me a bit of myself before my husband left me... I couldn't just say my piece and let it go at that - I HAD to have him acknowledge that I was right. Since he left and I have worked on ME, I have realized that the only time it is important for me to be right is if it is a life and death situation.<P>I am faced with my husband's "need" for a divorce after over two years of the best Plan A I have ever seen here... and I am faced with a choice, both of which will most likely involve me losing. I can just sign on the dotted line, cut my losses and try to move on. Or, I can fight ... and, very likely lose, because even in a non-no-fault state, there is a perception that the court cannot "force" someone to love another person again. Even if I should "win," my husband is unlikely to look on my fighting him as anything less than the hugest love buster ever, and I lose anyway. There is always the possibility that he will change his mind, but how much suffering would you prescribe for me before I have suffered enough to make walking away "valid" in your eyes?<P>Just to make it very clear: my intent at the moment is to oppose divorce, because I believe that my husband and I could have an extremely satisfying, exciting and happy relationship again if we were to spend time together without any slug slime present in our lives... However, if I did decide to sign divorce papers without fighting, even after 28 months of Plan A, would that put me on your "hit list" too?<P>Thickening your skin will not make you happy, and, if you have an ounce of empathy, doing it at the expense of other people who have suffered you know not what is more likely to make you miserable than anything else. It is not necessary to know you are right in the eyes of others if you know you are right in your heart. Divorce IS a tragedy. One which hurts sometimes more than losing a spouse to death. But everyone must deal with the tragedy in his or her own way. For some of us, that means examining the tragedy to see if it can be turned somehow into a triumph with all of the same players... for others, it means isolating ourselves from the origin of the hurt, licking our wounds, and healing by going in a different direction with different players.<P>I am much better at letting this kind of thing roll off of my back than I used to be - but I still hurt. I am hurting right now - my husband is seeing a lawyer tomorrow... But I would not condemn those who have chosen to walk a different path from mine. "They" say that tolerance and understanding come with maturity. Maybe I am finally growing up at the age of 41?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

I think one of the points of disagreement is whether it is really ever possible to "heal", or whether divorce is a tragedy that leaves wounds that never go away. The wounds can be ignored, and you can be temporarily distracted by a new love interest, but they are still there. My H's first wife left him after only two months, and I am convinced that he NEVER came close to getting over that. Even some of the statements he made after leaving me seemed like he was replaying the tapes of his first marriage. For instance, he told our daughter that marrying me was a mistake but he was young - but 30 is hardly a young age at which to marry. He was barely 21 when he married the first time. I think his first wife deserting him, combined with his father's treating him like he wasn't good enough, was enough to prevent him from ever being able to truly commit to anyone ever again. I don't think he ever really believed that he was loved, no matter how much evidence there was to the contrary. <P>There is no such thing as "getting over" a divorce.

Nellie, I agree to an extent. I truly believe that divorce is not a solution for most marital issues. That is not to say that there is never a time when divorce is "necessary."<P>If you ask a young amputee athlete does he miss his legs, I'm sure he will say yes. But I'm also sure that he is not letting those feelings become what determines if he continues his life and finds new ways of feeling good about himself.<P>I cannot, of course, talk from experience with amputation nor with divorce, and I certainly cannot speak to the issue of children. But I do know the pain of having your husband leave you for another woman. And I know that at some point, I am going to have to decide to either go on and find other rewards in life, or I might as well just curl up and die... And I know I am too young to let the rest of my life go by without my participation.<P>No, the healing is never complete - the scars will be forever painful. However, we CAN choose what we do with that pain and how we do it. I agree that some of the people here who have moved on to other relationships probably will experience some delayed issues with regard to their previous marriages. However, it isn't up to you and me to judge whether the fact that they have moved on is right or wrong... Everyone must follow their own path in this. And everyone must live with the paths they have chosen. No one can truly ever walk in the shoes of another.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri:<P>I think what you have written is so true and written so well.<P>Jen

Terri,<P>There are plenty of people who come on MB who may or may not have put the level of effort into their marriages that I have. There are probably quite a few who put MORE than me. I'm not judging which level of effort is right or wrong. I'm judging people's honesty about it. If their words don't match their actions, to me that means that something is not-quite-right, and I will call them on it. I've stopped responding to some of these people because it is clear they have a pretty deep emotional investment in their dishonesty. It's no skin off my back. It's their life. I don't need to be the "honesty police".<P>On the other hand, where I won't sit still is when their dishonesty leads them to hand out irresponsible advice to vulnerable people. <P>Two of these people I've "singled out" on this particular thread (do I need to name names?) have made a habit of encouraging newly divorced (and not yet divorced) people to date again. Basically, all one has to do is come here and claim their spouse had sex with someone else, and they get a thumbs-up to "move on".<P>The vast majority of those people who took their advice have come back here and frankly admit that they regret dating so soon. They admit to feeling even more hurt now. <P>So, I think their advice hurts people far worse than a few blunt words on my part. What is more destructive? I think their BAD advice presented in a "nice-tone" is incredibly destructive. I think they are hurting people with their blase approach to divorce recovery and I won't just sit here and watch them do it in the name of PSEUDO healing. Not only is their advice destructive to the people who come here, but to the men/women these people get involved with prematurely and to their children (if they have any). <P>Besides, there will always be opposition at the "extremes", and that is where we are, apparently. <P>In my line of work, ideas get debated pretty fiercely. VERY fiercely at times. There are people who enjoy the debate, and there are those that do not. Oh well. <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Two of these people I've "singled out" on this particular thread (do I need to name names?) have made a habit of encouraging newly divorced (and not yet divorced) people to date again. Basically, all one has to do is come here and claim their spouse had sex with someone else, and they get a thumbs-up to "move on".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just my two cents: Deciding when you try to "move on" after divorce depends on a lot of factors. You, your ex-spouse, your children, and what happened to screw up the marriage are all important considerations.<P>Some people need someone else, and quickly. The way a drowning person needs a life ring. That kind of person should be especially careful to make sure the rescuing person knows what they're getting into. This is no role for an ingeneue. <P>But if the newly alone person can find a way to keep it together *without* involving someone new, that's much better. It avoids complications, and lets the "dust settle" from the crashed relationship. Sometimes situations change unexpectedly, and if the newly alone person is already involved again, it can complicate matters. If and when the dust settles, it will be fairly obvious that stillness has arrived.<P>There are those whose attitude is that marriage is for life, courtship should never be physical, and divorce means celibacy from that day forward. They are living in the same "real world" we are. But others don't share their view, or at least find themselves unable to uphold that ideal. <P>No universal answer can be found. But plenty of people have experiences good and bad with various approaches. You can play the odds, or try to defy them; or better yet, do what you think best for your children. No earthly laws govern this--it's between you, your conscience and your god.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> Just my two cents: <BR>Some people need someone else, and quickly. The way a drowning person needs a life ring. That kind of person should be especially careful to make sure the rescuing person knows what they're getting into. This is no role for an ingeneue. <P>But if the newly alone person can find a way to keep it together *without* involving someone new, that's much better. It avoids complications, and lets the "dust settle" from the crashed relationship. Sometimes situations change unexpectedly, and if the newly alone person is already involved again, it can complicate matters. If and when the dust settles, it will be fairly obvious that stillness has arrived.<P>There are those whose attitude is that marriage is for life, courtship should never be physical, and divorce means celibacy from that day forward. They are living in the same "real world" we are. But others don't share their view, or at least find themselves unable to uphold that ideal.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. I've never said that anyone should be celibate, or that they should never date again. I understand that there are very few people who want (or need) to follow in my footsteps or make the choices I have. <P>What I find abhorrent is selling the "dating option" without also presenting the potential risks. Especially if one is newly divorced. Even more so if they are a "drowning person" who needs a life-ring. To me, it is the same thing as saying "here it is--here's the life-ring---go for it!", then jumping in the water and finding out it is a Cheerio. <P>Your choices have been different from mine, Sisyphus, but you don't see me picking on you. Correct? You are very good at presenting both sides. You have presented the potential consequences, and you haven't whined (much ) about them. In addition, you are quite honest about your part in the marriage and have gone beyond the standard knee-jerk--"I know I made mistakes". I admire that about you. You and I have very different values, but at least you are honest about them and don't make excuses for your choices. <P>

This is copied from a link <A HREF="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9410/articles/plant.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9410/articles/plant.html</A> <P>in another thread (list of qualities...)<P> "Corrupted modernity" chafes under restraint<BR>and accountability, says Thomas Oden: it displays a kind of "adolescent refusal of<BR>parenting." If we know the characteristic sins of the age, we can guess its foolish and<BR>fashionable assumptions-that morality is simply a matter of personal taste; that all silences need to be filled up with human chatter or background music; that 760 per cent of the American people are victims; that it is better to feel than to think; that rights are more important than responsibilities; that the right to choose, even among children, supersedes all other rights; that real liberty can be enjoyed without virtue; that self-reproach is for fogies; that God is our chum, or even our gofer, whose job is to make us rich or happy or religiously excited; that it is more satisfying to be envied than respected; that it is better for a politician or a preacher to be cheerful than truthful; that Christian worship fails unless it is fun."<P>

TS,<P>First off, who died and made you the Marriage Builders Police?<P>I was not going to waste my time replying again after your disgusting "swapping fluids" comment, which was totally uncalled for, its one thing to debate, and disagree, but to be viscious and call names, you have a lot of issues, that is obvious.<P>People come here for opinions. No one ever should take one single person's advice, but look at the whole and make THEIR OWN OPINION. This is a forum, a discussion, not a way of life, not a psychiatrist office, and certainly not a place to take advice totally from one person.<P>Its no secret that I dated early on. Thats my life and my decision. I came to MB to save my marriage. I plan A'd. I put up with emotional and verbal abuse for years. I stayed for the wrong reason, I stayed for the kids, not because I was "in love" anymore. I'll always have some kind of old love for him, but not what it takes to stay married.<P>There are a lot of people who date earlier than the divorce, and thats their right too. Some people believe that the marriage is over once the infidelity occurs. They are just afraid to be honest for fear of those who come here for a place to take out their anger on others.<P>I learned a lot here about needs, and a lot about affairs too. I am not happy that it ended the way it did, but a year later, we all talk, and I speak to OW quite often. It never started out the ideal situation, but I think its come a long way and it turned out as best as it could have. It's also something we all continue to work at.<P>I am not sure I always made the best choice to anyone else, but I did what was right for me. I have always been honest, and I don't care if you like what I have to say or not. The fact is we have 2 very different situations. <P>There is not much you and I can relate on, as far as I know you were married twice, the first time to someone who cheated with a lot of women, and the second that you cheated on. I think the second husband was not going to stick around after the infidelity, and maybe you are angry at those of us who walk away because of that. I know one of them you think never loved you but I really don't pay that close attention to memorize everything around here, so those facts I'm not positive on. You have no kids, I have 3. You work with mostly men, I don't. You had 2 marriages I had one. You relate better to those who are still in a lot of pain and I relate better to those who are trying to move on with their life. <P>We all have someone we relate to better or worse. We all can contribute something positive just not necessarily to the same people. <P>You can single me out all you like if it makes you feel good, then you have a big problem and I did take what you said seriously and was pretty upset, but I'm past it now. <P>I have never seen anyone use this board to insult and put down people before, but its obvious I'm not the only one who isn't happy with it.<P>As for the other person you single out, which I would guess would be Sue, she went down an entirely different path than me but she is happy with her life. She deserves it. I am happy in my life, and I KNOW I deserve it. Everyone here deserves to be happy and I think we've all suffered PLENTY of misery, which is what brought us here together. <P>I don't get kicks out of inflicting misery on others and I hope yours doesn't expand because I think this post would be a shame for a new person just coming to the boards. If I saw nonsense like it when I came, I wouldn't have returned. <P>SO my appologies to those who have had to be subject to whatever grudge you hold against me but I am not going to appologize for my life decisions. I know I'm not the first one in this forum to date before the divorce is final. I'm not going to be the last. <P>Divorce is never pleasant, when children are involved and I don't remember word for word what you said about your marriage never being an "it", but your not going to save the world or put a stop to unnecessary divorces. You can speak your mind but leave the insults out.<P>

This IS, however, an appropriate place to debate the validity of statements such as:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I stayed for the wrong reason, I stayed for the kids, not because I was "in love" anymore. I'll always have some kind of old love for him, but not what it takes to stay married.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One could certainly take lengthy issue with this statement, but that subject has been covered quite well in the numerous articles on this web site. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 15, 2001).]

I can't believe the direction these threads can take. How we went from asking what do u see when u look at your ex to dating again. That seems to be a very sore area here. <P>For what its worth I totally agree with waiting until you have exercised most of the demons of your past marriage. I pretty much feel that way because I would never want to hurt anyone the way I've been hurt. I can't say that I haven't thought about new relationships. I wouldn't be human if I didn't think about it. I just know that I have alot to get over first before I bring somebody else into my life. Not to mention my kids, who will be dealing with a new step-mother soon. The last thing they need to deal with is another man in their lives. <P>BUT that doesn't mean that it is not right for someone else. Nor do I feel that if a person does date while being seperated it says they didn't really try to save their marriage. If you weren't there don't judge.<BR>I think we have gone past the just friendly argueing here. <P>Jill<P>------------------<BR>live for today for there may not be a tomorrow

How did I miss this thread...<P>I guess I purposely overlooked it because I no longer care how my ex looks...<P>It just didn't work out! <kidding stu><P>You know me well enough to know that I too don't see this as an IT...<P>The reality is I saw that it is impossible for me to be married to woman that doesn't want to be married to <B>ME</B><P>Cheating is her easy way out...<P>I have owned every once of my behavior that led to her cheating...she didn't give a ****!! Her feelings were gone and that was that...What is there left to do...either go on til the bitter end...or find a new way of life...I <B>CHOSE</B> the latter...<P>The person paying the tab for all this is my darling daughter...<P>I don't buy all the psyco-babble about kids being ok and are stronger...blah...blah..blah..ad nausium!!!<P>Kids survive..that's it!! Some are fortunate and thrive...most pay a lifelong tab of guilt!!<P>My only Hope is that I can teach my daughter that marriage is serious and needs to be worked at...<P>Would I take my W back...I think not...A) I haven't the strength to relive all the pain I have walked through...and B) I just cannot see myself getting gray with her anymore...She Killed <B>ALL</B> of my love for her...Sure I could try, however I don't think she would...and besides she now has her 18 yr old soul-mate to live with...<P>Am I better because of my divorce...no I'm better in spite of my divorce...Some of you know what I have been through in my life. I know I have shared with TS alot of that and she might attest to the struggles I have overcome. I am better because I continue to look inward and try to overcome my defects of character...I can say my life is better today becuase of that very thing...Know what??? I'll be saying next year that my life is better than it ever has been, because of my constant vigilance to move forward...<P>I know I will carry the scars of my divorce for ever...They will remind of the pain and help me not to make those same mistakes...<P>When will I get in a new relationship?? When one finds me!! I do know that I love myself in spite of my defects...I also know that I cannot love another until I love myself...Am I ready...Who knows...Will I be honest enough to share this with another...You bet your [censored]!!<P>I see alot of folk getting there toes stepped on in this thread...When I get mine stepped on, I think ouch, maybe I shouldn't have had them out there...Then I take a good hard look at why they were stepped on...<P>TS...keep steppin on mine if they're out there...That is what I love about you!! <BR>I think MB police is too harsh...how bout the MB toe-cruncher <P>IMO when we come here we need to be honest, open minded and willing!! We are each others eyes and ears!!<P>I love you all very much and I'm grateful you're a part of my life! <P>Bill<BR> <P>------------------<P><BR>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited January 15, 2001).]

You know I haven't seen my STBX for a couple of months. I can tell you the image I do have of him is a man who is a shell. Who is lost. He has no love for himself, no self respect and is on a self destructive path. He was in the process of taking me down with him. He has lost himself to the point where fancy clothes with name brands on them and big fancy prices to go with them are important... being part of the fast rich and famous club is more important than Domino's pizza and a movie after a long hard week. I do feel bad for him...because I didn't see the lack of love he had for himself. He really loathes himself. And we all know if you can't love yourself how can you love others...So I see a shell. It's really too bad.

I'll post an answer to the question, since my husband has again announced he is seeing a lawyer for divorce.<P>I see a man with so much potential, so much intelligence, so much caring, so much pain... running away from all that he knows and loves and all that he has held important in his life. He thinks that if he runs, he will become happy again. He doesn't realize that his happiness must come from within himself. I see a man who has lowered himself to be with a person of foul moral fiber and no interest in anything but herself, a man who continues to walk in the fog of infidelity.<P>And it breaks my heart into tiny little pieces.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>