Bad Counslors - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

Can anyone give me some advise on how to handle this situation. W is seeing a personal counslor, all they are working on is W herself, she has no intrest in me whatsoever, Claims 2 1/2 yr old D will be fine. She asked me to leave 4 months ago. We see each other on the weekends and have done things together as a family. She just wants out of our relationship. I need to find a new W and she needs to find a new H and things will be fine. She is depressed and has be diagnosed with a chemical imbalance. Im am at a lost and desperate. Have been practicing Weiner-Davis DBing stratagies. W says she has noticed that i have changed, but it doesnt effect her. I feel that this counslor has made he join a cult or something. Can really use some advise here. Daveyboy

I've been to two different counselors over the past year and a half (H of 11 years left and is now living with OW). My H also goes to his own counselor.My first counselor said we weren't meant for each other, that I should just move on, find someone else, etc. (this was only 1 month after I found out about the affair and the same month that he moved out.) Well, I stopped going to her and found another counselor, who is much better. She deals with "what is" yet doesn't make me feel stupid or wrong for hoping (very slight hope at this point) that maybe the marriage could be saved. My H's counselor (from what he says) doesn't address the marriage at all, nor does he in his comments. Of course, it's him that wants to get out. But you'd think that they would at least ADDRESS it some....o well. So, from my experience, I don't think counselors are there to help us, i.e. find right and wrong. I think they are there only to help us thru whatever we THINK is right or wrong for us.In my opinion, I would try to visit a counselor who's values match yours (like a Christian counselor, if you are Christian) at least once in addition to your regular counselor (if you have one). As far as your wife's counseling, there isn't anything you can do about that, I don't see. It's really hard to think that on one hand your spouse is getting some much needed help, but on the other hand, the help he/she is getting can seem skewed in it's effect on them.I feel for you. If you aren't in counseling yourself, may I suggest that you do that as well. Stay true to your values and beliefs and you'll hopefully find a counselor who will respect that.Aloha, Mrs.O

Thanks for the reply Mrs.O Does anyone have any idea where I can find an answer here. I would just like to know what techniques to use and how to handle this situation. some other questions because i am new to this site. 1) where are plans A and B listed on this site? 2) is This the right thread i should be on in my situation? 3) does any one having any inspiring techniques or stories posted anywhere 4) for my situation, I am always open for suggestionsThanks Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: 1)where are plans A and B listed on this site?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A> Plans A and B are further discussed in the book "Surviving An Affair" as well. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: 2) is This the right thread i should be on in my situation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, please continue to come back for support, help, info. We may not have the answers, but we can relate and you might find some help.Also, look in the Basic Concepts section for help.... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html</A> And in the Q&A Columns... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html</A> Also, consider calling the Counseling office and talking to Dr. Steve Harley or Dr. Jennifer Harley about your specific question. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html</A> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: 3) does any one having any inspiring techniques or stories posted anywhere for my situation, I am always open for suggestions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Go to the "In Recovery" section of the forum and look for success stories or post there asking for success stories.You've come to the right place for help, it just might take awhile. Please don't give up. Aloha, Mrs.O[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited February 13, 2001).]

Here's a really wacky idea, that might be a big lovebuster...You could try to set up an appointment with your wife's "personal counselor" for yourself. If the counselor will accept you as a client, then you might get a better sense of this counselor's philosophy. Or, you could see if the counselor will see you to help you understand what you can do to help your wife.The counselor will not be allowed to discuss your wife's sessions with you, but if the counselor can see you as a "real" person instead of a distorted image painted by your wife, then the counselor's approach might actually change.There is another aspect of this situation to consider. The reason this counselor is working solely on your wife may be because of your wife's depression. Depending on the causes and extent of your wife's depression, it is could be unrealistic for you to expect work on your marriage to be effective. You mentioned that your wife has noticed that you have changed, but it doesn't affect her. That's not an indication that your wife has joined a cult. That is completely typical of depression. You may just need to be more patient.Unless your wife has convinced the counselor that you are the cause of her depression, then the counselor should not be advising divorce. Your wife is in a psychological state where her judgement is impaired, and she should not be making such a life-changing decision right now. Any decent counselor should take this into account.Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of bad counselors out there, and their capacity to do irreparable damage is enormous.

Ok so counslor has W convinced its me that is causing the depression lets say, Now what are my steps to get my W back? W left a bag of valentines cookies for me and Roommate, left note that says Cookies in bag are for you and ________ On the baggie she writes in magic marker Happy Valentines ________, leaves my name off it and signs my 2 1/2 yr old Ds name. What does that tell you... sometimes I get so frustrated and I just have to feel sorry for her that she needs to stoop so low. I Think she does this to prove she has no feelings for me and doesnt want me to get my hopes up that we can ever reconsile. Her big line is after we do something as a family or have fun as a family, a switch goes on in her head and says its not suppose to be like this and she blurts out "Now I dont want you to get your hopes up here"..what a bunch of BS

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: Ok so counslor has W convinced its me that is causing the depression lets say, Now what are my steps to get my W back?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't "get" her back. Anything you do to try to get her back will probably only push her away. You can only hope and pray that she will come back of her own accord. And meanwhile take every available opportunity to show her that it would be a good idea. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>W left a bag of valentines cookies for me and Roommate ...leaves my name off it and signs my 2 1/2 yr old Ds name. What does that tell you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It tells me that your wife was thinking of you, and found a way of doing something nice for you without admitting it to herself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I Think she does this to prove she has no feelings for me and doesnt want me to get my hopes up that we can ever reconsile. Her big line is after we do something as a family or have fun as a family, a switch goes on in her head and says its not suppose to be like this and she blurts out "Now I dont want you to get your hopes up here"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And who do you think she is addressing? Who do you think she feels a need to prove this to? Here's a hint: it may not be you!Try to take comfort in the fact that your wife is still interacting with you, and the experience is sometimes positive. This gives you the opportunity to put Plan A into effect. Also, the fact that you are separated gives you more opportunity to take care of yourself so that you can maintain the internal resources necessary to do Plan A well.Daveyboy, if you really want good advice, we're going to have to know a bit more about your situation. So far, all you've said is that your wife "just wants out" of your relationship. Do you have any idea why? Does she have specific complaints?

Well Davey, it seems your going thru a lot of what ive gone thru in the begining of my marital problems. Most counslors suck. ive been seperated 3 years and wife is finally getting the help she needs. She was diagnosed with manic depression a year ago and was a meth junkie. She had a counslor 4 years ago tell her to leave my [censored] and of course the counslor was divorced herself!! Even wife at the time admitted the lady was a flake. On to more counslors. I went to a great marriage counslor and she wouldnt come with me for 6 months, then when she did she didnt like what she heard and believe me i didnt always like what the counslor told me either,but she left me for the first time. It was then that i knew something was wrong mentally with her cause she blamed me for everything and although i wasnt the perfect husband i wasnt a bad one either. We have 2 kids and my sis is helping me with my 6 year old son and 11 yr old step daughter is at her dads. Her counslors now are good ones and they dont just put her on prozac and blame me for all her problems. shes on lithium and a bunch of other drugs and she now has faced herself and that im a loving husband that has loved her thru a books worth of hell that she has put me thru and i never gave up on her. We are now putting our family back together and she spends the weekends with me while she is in a treatment home. I suggest if ya want your wife back and your marriage to be healed that you find a strong faith in God, otherwise you wont make it. Have some courage and dont give up, it sounds like your wife may have some mental problems and she will try to fool doctors and counslors into believing its all your fault. Mine did and many bought it. But i put my faith in God and all the lousy people involved in my wifes life (counsilors, doctors, men, her mother) have all been exposed as liers and fools messin with what God has joined together and i wouldnt want to be in there shoes when judgment hits. Good Luck, Mark

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: W is seeing a personal counslor, all they are working on is W herself, she has no intrest in me whatsoever, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi DB, welcome aboard,Not all counslors are marriage counslors, and as you have figured out, the fact that a counslor calls himself a counslor doesn't mean he or she is particularly good at it.My ex was a therapy shopper. She and one of her girl friends bounced around from counslor to counslor. Each new one would be the greatest thing since sliced bread for a few weeks or months, then on to someone else they heard about. I still believe that a number of these counslors had as much to do with the end of the marriage as the OM did, and after we separated, my ex wound up dating the last guru we were seeing.There are an awful lot of people going to counsling who don't want help and who don't want to change their own behavior, they just want somebody to tell them they are right. The idea is that then they feel "validated", whatever that means. As long as the client has the means to pay for the sessions, there are precious few counslors who have the integrity to admit that nothing is being accomplished and end the sessions.The point is that very few people in this world want to get set straight. Forgive the anecdote, but the women in our family, mother, aunts, cousins, wives and daughters all seem to have one thing in common, they are never wrong! Even when forced to recognize an obvious mistake, the recognition is normally qualified by "Yes, but___etc., etc." followed by any number of fallacious arguments. My ex would tell you that she was only wrong one time in her life, and that was when she thought she had made a mistake. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

People willingly believe two things, what they want to believe, and what they fear. From what you wrote, I wouldn't make too much of those valentine cookies. It sounds like you really want to be a part of the equation; She may not even have you in the picture. She may be just teaching your daughter about Valentines and helping her to participate in the celebration of Valentine's Day. She may also have been looking for way to do something nice for you.I hope you stay in the forum and particularly with marriage builders for a while. The experience has been a real eye opener for me. Recommend that you visit the links listed in the posts here and read some of Dr. Harley's columns. They are very readable, and for whatever reason, they make sense to this head on my shoulders. Dr. Harley addresses a wide variety of sensitive issues with understanding and kindness.We don't know your situation yet, but we all sense that it didn't get that way overnight, and it isn't going to heal itself overnight either. Keep coming back, it works!Bumper

Specific Questions about our Marriage would be helpful. The only thing W has said since our seperation is that when D was born My life went on as normal and her and D sat in background. Also gave me the I dont love you as a husband BS. Had problems intamitly about 3 years ago she said something is just wrong I dont know what it is... I know what it was it was me not doing the little loving things to make her feel loved as a spouse. We were busy working on our first house and really turned into just a friend alot. We both work an awful lot. I have not been the best husband I am the first to admit, but W never said she like to see anything change, she thought it was just something she was going through. I know what I have done wrong in this relationship now...I just want a chance to correct it. She told a friend of hers once at the start she was going to take me back but decided against it, as she started seeing counslor. she also told SIL that she did have remorse about not giving me a second chance. The other night she told SIL and a friend, that things will be fine with us once my husband finds a new wife and she finds a new husband, that hurt. This was right after she asked SIL if she had seen me lately and how good i looked after losing a bunch of weight. (40lbs) to be exact. enough I hope to get you guys started, I will answer any more questions anyone has. I need my W back..

I get a little defensive when the subject of counseling comes up...since I do this for a living. First of all, the counselor is working with his or her client. It is unethical to discuss a client with anyone unless the client has admitted that they are going to hurt themselves or some one else. Different counselors use different methods...agreeably, there are some that I wouldn't be comfortable with either. It depends on how you, the client are. A counselor's job is to help you work through your issues...make suggestions...not tell you what to do or preach to you about what to do or how to save your marriage. It is not the counselor's job to impose his or her beliefs on their client.My stbxh is very controlling. He once called my counselor and actually told him that I was behaving recklessly and if I showed any signs that I was softening toward the marriage to tell me how wonderful he was. When I found out I was angry beyond words. Of course, the counselor never did it or did he tell me about the phone call...my H actually told me what he had done after he asked me if the counselor mentioned him to me?So often we want to place the blame on someone else. We are all responsible for our own actions...no one else is accountable for them...only we are.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: A counselor's job is to help you work through your issues...make suggestions...not tell you what to do or preach to you about what to do or how to save your marriage. It is not the counselor's job to impose his or her beliefs on their client.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would find a counselor inadequate if they followed those constraints. Sometimes, the counselor should "tell it like it is" and provide a firm directive. Otherwise, what's the point? We're there with the counselor because we're tired of making our own mistakes. And not all of us respond to a gentle corraling of our thoughts.My psychiatrist has from time to time said something direct and to the point. I don't always agree or obey, but it lets me know that he has a firm belief, and gives me pause to think about taking what he said very seriously. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My stbxh is very controlling. He once called my counselor and actually told him that I was behaving recklessly and if I showed any signs that I was softening toward the marriage to tell me how wonderful he was. When I found out I was angry beyond words. Of course, the counselor never did it or did he tell me about the phone call...my H actually told me what he had done after he asked me if the counselor mentioned him to me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, so that's controlling. But it's perhaps also a poor expression of a loving feeling. Do you always look at STBXH with a "glass is half empty" mentality? Or maybe a "glass is half empty, and the stuff that's in there is poison, and I'll drink it just to spite STBXH" mentality?"Controlling" behavior is something the doer can learn to ameliorate. So is intolerance of others' personal weaknesses.

No, I don't always look at my stbxh in terms of the glass being half empty. I realize it is hard not to jump in and defend my H based on your own personal issues. That is why you are an attorney and not a counselor. I wouldn't say my H is contolling if he weren't. And he is. I could go and on to get my point across. Let's just say he has gone beyond the normal divorce nastiness. In short, he has slandered me, harassed me, physcially assaulted me, dragged me through court four times, taken every penny of the marital assets, refused to agree to a visitation schedule...afterall, I may then have the opportunity to make plans and go out. He has invaded my privacy by breaking into my email account (this is after the separation) and read my personal email...Yes, he is the personification of a loving spouse. There are always two perceptions in a marriage; yours and your spouse. Sure, a good counselor tells it like it is, but they don't make judgement calls or say you should do this and that... when they don't have the perception of the other person. They need to be objective. There is a difference in telling someone like it is and projecting their own beliefs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: My stbxh is very controlling. He once called my counselor and actually told him that I was behaving recklessly and if I showed any signs that I was softening toward the marriage to tell me how wonderful he was. When I found out I was angry beyond words. Of course, the counselor never did it or did he tell me about the phone call...my H actually told me what he had done after he asked me if the counselor mentioned him to me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't understand why you became so angry. It sounds as though you knew your counselor would see through this rather pathetic attempt at control, and would respond appropriately. If anything, this experience should have served as external corroboration to your counselor of what your husband was like.But I guess I am making the mistake of expecting feelings to conform to rationality, when feelings are seldom rational and are seldom in response to isolated experiences. My own reaction in this situation would probably be one of amusement, and I'm not sure that's a healthy response either. Implicit in that response is a certain amount of disrespect, and while a sense of humor is often touted as an ally in dealing with anger management (which in itself is just a specialized form of pain management), at what point does it become an unhealthy means of hiding from one's "true" feelings?It's all so complicated. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Then again, perhaps I am being defensive myself, since I have recently done something sort of "similar" to what your husband did. After my wife left me, she stopped seeing the psychotherapist that we had both been seeing (separately and together), and started seeing a new one. (It's probably just a coincidence, but it was only a couple of weeks later that my wife filed for divorce.) Anyhow, after I learned about this new therapist last month, I sent a letter to her, stating my willingness to help in any way, and suggesting that she might find it helpful to consult with our original therapist. I expressed my willingness to waive confidentiality for that purpose.I have little doubt that my wife would see this as "controlling behavior". I am quite sure that if/when she finds out she will be angry with me. Nevertheless, I thought it was something I had to do. This therapist knows nothing about me or our marriage other than what my wife has told her, and it's a sure bet that whatever picture my wife has painted bears very little resemblance to reality. It's hard to give good advice when you are being misled as to the facts. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: I wouldn't say my H is contolling if he weren't. And he is. I could go and on to get my point across. Let's just say he has gone beyond the normal divorce nastiness. There are always two perceptions in a marriage; yours and your spouse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then, just as an exercise, why not write down what his justification or defense would be for his every misdeed, if you don't already have such an explanation? If you already have it, write it down too. I'm not calling them valid in any way, and you don't have to either. And next to any incidence of physical abuse, you have every right to put "Nothing can justify this". Softening your attitude toward him will help you to live with what he has done (and will help you to not provoke more of same--but that doesn't mean you don't stand up for yourself), and to live with yourself.

The point is now how do we get around this if we want our spouses back? How do we get them to see a diffrent counslor or go to a marriage counslor? Who can point out that they feel they have been to a bad counslor. Who can tell them that there 2 1/2 yr old D is not fine, and most likely will not be fine. How can someone sit and take the questions that this little girl asks such as "Dad you don't have to go to ____ house yet?, you stay here with me and mommy?" or "Mom, Dad stay here with me and you today?" These are two examples that have happened in the last two weeks. The first one W didnt even answer, the second one she said, "He's here right now, isnt he". How can she take this so lightly, you would think it would bother her and make her think. I almost start to cry when I hear this.

Sisyphus:If I were dealing with someone who was rational, I could do your exercise, but I am not. I am not saying this to be mean spirited or do I harbor a lot of bad feelings. I don't. In short, I am tired. What I want is to have peace in my life. Believe me, any other female would have had his behind thrown in jail for some of his actions; not only to me, but his children. We have all suffered greatly. There has been a magnitude of verbal, emotional, and physcial abuse. It's hard to soften my attitude toward him when it hurts so much. My husband would argue that he was a great husband, that I merely fell out of love with him and decided to leave the marriage. That in itself is his reasoning for his behavior. You, see, with him it was never a question of him doing wrong. Every problem was my fault, or it was the people I worked with...they were coaching me, or it was my parents, or the minister, or the counselor. During marriage counseling he would rail into me...many times the counselor had to interject so I could get a word in. Divorce was filed last February. It is still not final because my stbxh has done everything in his power to stall things. His reasoning here is that if I get the divorce, that is all I should get. He believes that everything else; house, money, investments, etc, that were accumulated in 16 years of marriage are exclusively his. I don't deserve a cent, even though I have worked continously. I don't believe my case is one of misguided percception. He is controlling. Short, of me backing down and walking away with nothing,he sees no other solution.

Daveyboy:You said your wife has a chemical unbalance...is she taking medication? If she isn't, she most likely should be and be under the care of a psychiatrist. You are dealing with something altogether different than a stubborn wife. I know first hand...my stbxh is on meds too for a neuro disorder.To answer your other question; you can't make an adult go to another counselor or force them to go to marriage counseling if they are not willing. First of all, your W may like her counselor and think she is wonderful...you may not, but you aren't going to her, so your W won't care. Secondly, the marriage counseling will not work if she doesn't want to go. I work with marriage counselors and the success rate is only about 35-40%. Those that make it are those couples who are dedicated to fix their marriage. You know, the saying, "it takes two."Divorce always effects children. Anyone who says it doesn't is dead wrong. My two boys are having a terrible time. My spouse insists on dragging the kids into it constantly. Every time he's with them, it takes me days to get them back to normal. There is no way your D at 2 is going to understand what is going on...you, yourself don't. [

What are your suggestions than for my situation. Yes Wife is taking the medication called Celexia, I belive thats what it is called.Thanks for your help Daveyboy

Lonelysoul Do you have any intrest in getting back with your H? I forgot do you have any kids. Has he ever recieved a second chance to fix himself and other problems?Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: His reasoning here is that if I get the divorce, that is all I should get. Short, of me backing down and walking away with nothing,he sees no other solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What would you demand as damages for the loss of your dream? All you want is out. He wants this happily ever after fantasy that he still possesses, and that is now being ripped from him. Yours (if you ever had one) died long ago--at his hands. But his still lives.That's not evil, that's muddle-headedness. Which is not to justify his actions. But it may suggest some avenues in dealing with him--avenues other than a mutually exhausting frontal attack or defense.

Daveyboy:I have two boys. My rollercoaster ride has been going on now for over one year. The marriage started going down hill about 10 years ago. Some of it was not anyone's fault...life was just difficult. In any case, things got to the point where I was miserable. I, foolishly, participated in an EA with someone I met over the internet. When my H found out about that is when things got ugly. The EA ended...we went to counseling...things got uglier and uglier. My H had second, third, and fourth, chances. He hasn't changed even a little...in fact he has gotten worse. So, no, I have no interest in staying married to him.

Sisyphus:My H does not have any fantasy about living happily ever after. He has a very archiac attitude about marriage...the man is the Lord and Master...the wife is his property. In the 16 years were were married, he never referred to me by name...but always as his, "wife." It ticks him off that I had the audacity to thwart him and want a divorce. It used to bug the h*** out of me. The only thing I'm asking for in this divorce is half of what was mine; the savings, the investments, the house, and child support for our two children. Before we were even separated he closed all of our joint banking accounts, took away the joint credit cards, etc. The best way for me to deal with him is to have no contact. [

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: the man is the Lord and Master...the wife is his property.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's fantasy if I've ever heard it! Straight out of Conan The Barbarian! And he thinks that you're not going to be his property, you're certainly not going to take any of his property. Fine. Maybe you can't tell him any different.He thinks he's a great guy. I wish he would unfog enough so that he would be helped by seeing something you could write like this:"You say you're a great guy. I'd settle for decent.A great guy would offer the woman he loved even more than she deserved if she chose to leave him. You're offering zilch. A guy discovering his decency would at least want her to have what the law would say she deserved, and would work with her to get to that number instead of wasting what we both have on attorney's fees.A great guy would let go easily of a woman who wanted to leave him, even if he believed himself to be in the right. You have done everything you can to be possessive of me. A guy discovering his decency would look at himself and see where he was thoughtlessly refusing to let go, even though it hurts him to do it."I'm sure you could fill several pages with thoughts like these. And he could fill several pages with what his fantasy wife would do for him. Although your marriage is irretrievable and you don't want it back anyway, what can you do to show him that you respect what is good in him, and expect him to meet some reasonable standard, and not have to be forced to heel like some snarling monster?Because "hiself" is not a real word (instead, it's just a typo) unless you go back and add an "m", [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 14, 2001).]

Sisyphus:See what I mean? I would gladly do whatever it took to smooth things over, but just like everything else in this marriage, it won't be over until he says its over. Fortunately, the courts will eventually terminate this little drama. The legal fees are over the top, but my H doesn't care. You know, when you wrote about what a great guy would do for the woman he loves...I have said those very things myself. How can anyone profess to love someone when they have gone out of their way to hurt and humilate. I sometimes wonder if he ever loved me or if I was just the trophy wife?

You know Im just thinking here. You gave your husband 4 chances you say, Im not your husband. All I need is one more chance and I will promise the world I will not screw it up. I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. I no what my faults are and how I need to correct them. My W her faults can easily be corrected by just telling me whats wrong when something is wrong. I would even suggest to my W that we see a marrriage counslor once a month and just talk to make sure this would never happen again. I am willing to do anything. I just cant believe like others (family, friends and people I dont even know) that i am not intitled to a second chance to prove myself and my loyalty and commitmant to my W and family. Oh how this just burns my butt. Why is this?? Still waiting to here my solutions Bumbed out on V day Davey

Perhaps...I could be of better assistance if I knew your story. Aside from your wife having a chemical inbalance and wanting a D...I don't know what happened. Why does she want out of the marriage? Is there OM or was there OW? What happened?You say you only want another chance. Before she left, had she expressed that she was unhappy?

There was no one else in our relationship that i know of and still isnt, everyone assures me of that. even XBF called her after we split and asked her out and she turned him down. She says she wants out of marriage because she is just not happy and does not love me like a husband. Like I said before I used her as a W and thats about it. I was a bad husband emotionally to her and realize this. any other questions I will gladley answer.Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: I sometimes wonder if he ever loved me or if I was just the trophy wife?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He simply fails to be thorough and rigorous about working out in his mind the things that go wrong in his life. I'm sure you remember that we call that "fog". And being in love is a kind of fog too, but a happy and helpful kind. Yes, he loved you. And when it went wrong, you too had to go through a kind of reappraisal process. Your marital history has, to some extent, been rewritten by you--so that you could live with yourself after leaving him. I'm not saying it's wrong to do--especially where you have been physically abused. I'm just saying that your now allowing yourself to believe that he might nver have loved you is an example of that kind of rewriting. If he thought he loved you, but had an imperfect understanding of what the word meant, does that invalidate his love? Who among us has a perfect understanding of what it means to love?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: I am not saying this to be mean spirited nor do I harbor a lot of bad feelings. I don't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LonelySoul,Well, maybe you don't harbor a lot of bad feelings, but you will do until we find someone who does. After reading your posts on this thread, you sure had me fooled.Has it ever occurred to anyone that we are all arguing the same side of the same issue? So many posts point to the same idea: "Well , OK, I was a little bit wrong, but that still doesn't justify what my spouse did, which was obviously so much more wrong." Somehow, the spouse's transgression is much more offensive than any transgression on my part. According to my ex wife, her physical affair wasn't as cruel as the one I had after I found about it. My PA was much worse because I knew about her PA, and was acting out of revenge.Of course the spouse was a controller and a manipulator. You know, I might have done some of that myself, but of course, not as bad. But then few posts recognize that the writer is involved in some controlling and manipulating on his or her own. How often do we write from a postition of a mostly innocent and injured party?Seems to me that many posters are really not all that opposed to controlling and manipulating, they get a lot more concerned when they feel that they have been controlled or manipulated. And if they feel ignored and taken for granted, out come the brass knuckles.There is an old Irish Proverb that says: "If you would know yourself, listen to your critism of others!"You just can't change another person, period. But you can change yourself and you can grow from the experience and you can go on and lead a satisfying and productive life.Bumper

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bumperii: Seems to me that many posters are really not all that opposed to controlling and manipulating, they get a lot more concerned when they feel that they have been controlled or manipulated. And if they feel ignored and taken for granted, out come the brass knuckles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't courtship all about manipulation of another's heart so that they love you? No, wait, back up. Courtship is about exploring with another person the question of whether your relationship should go to the next level, and the next, and the next. But in doing that, don't you seek to engender good feelings? Isn't that manipulative? Of course it is. But the other doesn't object, because you're pulling them in a direction that they find pleasant anyway. When you do something that acts as a brake against a movement in a direction you don't want but they do--now it's manipulative. The question is: do you manipulate with sincerity, or is it a situation where you know you won't deal evenhandedly with a lover who is drifting away? Or do you overpromise, when all you're equipped to do is take baby steps?And controlling may be when you simply don't make it easy for them to leave. Why are you doing that? Because you really want them to stay and are ready to make whatever changes they want to see? Or again, do you simply want things your way? A lot of times, by the time one spouse is ready to make the right moves for the right reasons, the other spouse is too far gone down the road of jaundiced reappraisal. Until spouses learn early to handle themselves and each other, that's just gonna be "the way it is".

Bumperii:I take responsibility for my actions. I am not perfect. Perhaps I used the wrong wording...I am hurt and mortified by my stbxh's actions. I don't hate him, I don't bad mouth him to his children. I do know in my heart that I was a good wife to him for many years. I have many people who will back me up on this. Even, he will say I was. I had become a doormat. That isn't a vindictive statement; it is fact. I believe it is natural to want to hurt someone who has hurt you, but that is not what happened here. The EA I spoke of never turned into a PA...I never even met this guy face to face. My H told my parents, my siblings, his boss, his family, and our children that I was an adulteress. He said I lusted, therefore, I was guilty. How do you reason with that kind of thinking?I do know...that I can look in ther mirror and know that even through all of the ugliness of this past, I never acted evil or mean toward him. And belive me, I had just cause.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: My H told my parents, my siblings, his boss, his family, and our children that I was an adulteress. He said I lusted, therefore, I was guilty. How do you reason with that kind of thinking?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You don't. Because it's logical, even though it doesn't come from the same premise where you are starting from. You chalk it up to experience and go forward.If someone's "adultery" is in private, then yes, it should stay private. If it's flagrant, the cuckold is under no constraint, but why bother telling everybody what they already can see with their own eyes? You may have been guilty, but what good could he possibly have thought would come from spreading word of it? He just wasn't thinking straight, so he acted on his feelings. Which were mainly anger because he hadn't taken the time to process them.Nonetheless, it's over and done. And while it may have been bad judgment (and bad for the kids), I honestly don't think it's something you can count as a wrong against you. It was largely accurate about you, even though it was uncharitable. Your anger is at having your dirty laundry aired. Too bad. That's why you keep your laundry clean. You forgive yourself for your affair--why can't you forgive him for his reaction?

Sisyphus:I forgave him a long time ago for that. He just hasn't forgiven me, or should I say forgotten it. Every chance he has he makes mention of it. I have a problem with his meaness. I have a problem with him trying to shoke me in front of our eleven year old and then saying he did it because he loved me. I have a problem with being spit on. I have a problem with him reading my personal journal, scanning the pages onto a disk and then giviing them to his lawyer to read. Shall I go on?

I have problems with all that too. What has he sincerely apologized for? And have you forgiven him for it and told him?I feel like you're still at his throat, and he likely feels he has no choice but to keep squeezing yours.Sure, the lawyers can finish it. Too bad the both of you can't. That's not a judgment of you, Lord knows you've been through enough. I just hope others will see themselves in what we have written to one another before they get to a point like this--even if they do wind up divorcing.

He has aplogized for none of it. He told me had he really wanted to kill me, he would have. Is that an apology?If getting a divorce and a restraining order is being at his throat than I quess I am guilty. I have been accused of not being mean enough. I don't like conflict, and Lord knows I have seen plenty.

Lonely & Bumper any more thoughts for me on this wonderful Vday, feels like its Dday.Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: W says she has noticed that i have changed, but it doesnt effect her. Can really use some advise here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't affect her yet. Patience is part of what you need to show her. You're doing the right thing just being a good guy and taking it slowly. At most, you can ask her counselor for a referral to the colleague he speaks to most often--then you'll have a functioning backchannel. Not only that, it will be a backchannel through trusted professionals skilled in communicating.Good luck.

Davey:I know Valentine's Day can be a downer; it is also my anniversary. I got candy from my boss; something I don't need. That's it. But, really, it is just a day. I never got all sentimental about it anyway. How long were you married? I know you said you didn't meet your W's emotional needs...how so?My antedote for this day is for all of us to go out and have a beer, or whatever, and be happy for the company

Thanks Lonely for the encouragement. We were married 6 years lived together for 3 before that. By not meeting her emotional needs I guess i mean when i "lured her in" I did alot of little special things flowers, notes etc. made all of her friends jealous and family women too. made her feel awful special. talked alot in bed, told her I loved her all the time etc. when we got married I stopped doing that, not on purpose but just because there were so many other things going on..new house, work, etc. I guess i just forgot about those things and took them and her for granted. now the last thing in the world she wants from me is flowers.Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy: now the last thing in the world she wants from me is flowers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do a little something nice anyway. Even if it isn't wanted.

I am sorry that things haven't worked out. Pleaase don't take this personally, but so many men think that when they are married...they are done. They can walk around in their underwear do unspeakable things in front of their wifes, forget birthdays, Valentine's Day, etc and we will still love them. For the most part, we women will, but it helps to keep some mystery in the relationship and to be thoughtful. My sister knew her H only a few weeks when he proposed...they were married within a month. they had all the obstacles piled against them...she was only 21...he was 30; only had been divorced a few months with three kids....They have been married 28 years and he still treats her like she was the best thing that happened to him. And vice versa. They have had some tough times...but they always treated each other like they did in the beginning of their relationship. It works.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul: They can walk around in their underwear do unspeakable things in front of their wifes, forget birthdays, Valentine's Day, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LonelySoul,Got to admit, I made that mistake. When we were married about six or seven years, I forgot her birthday. What followed was the most miserable three months I had ever experienced up to that point in life. It opened up a flood gate of tears, rage, sulking, brooding, and abuse. And not just from her, MIL, her sister and a couple aunts got around to telling me what a horrible, terrible, no good, very bad person I was for forgetting her birthday too. Long story short, since that incident, I've never been able to give either a birthday card or valentine card to her because of love and warm feeling. From that day forward, every one of those lovely cards with the flowery mushy messages was purchased and given not out of love, but out of pressure to avoid the misery that would follow if I neglected to send them. We've been divorced for sixteen years, but those cards still get sent every year. When we got married, I understood that it was a lifetime committment to be faithful to each other and care for each other, but nobody mentioned that I owed it to her to remember to celebate "Her" birthday or "Her" wedding anniversary. Nobody told me that forgetting "Her" birthday was an "unspeakable act".I figured a way out of it, or so I thought. I put all the birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries in my annual daily planner book, and posted reminders to myself about a week ahead of time to go buy cards, presents, arrange parties, send invitations, etc. That worked well for the next three years. Well one day she went into my briefcase for something and found the daily planner book. When she saw those reminders the wheels fell off the wagon. What a scene that was! She started screaming about "if you really loved me, you would remember these things, you wouldn't need to keep records and you wouldn't need to be reminded" And of course, the MIL, anunts, sister and cousins got into the act too.Because of my upbringing in abject poverty, the gift giving associated with birthdays and holidays has never meant much to me. I don't really appreciate gifts, I feel humiliated by them. I did finally realize that this process was extremely important to her. But it didn't matter, the damage was done. I have often thought that if I could have been a Don Juan, (believe me, I'm not)I would have tried to love each woman the way she wanted to be loved. If I ever meet a woman who could feel that way about me, I'll probably marry again. After the divorce, I became the custodial parent, so raising the kids was more important than finding another wife. Then getting them through college became more important than finding another wife; then paying for the weddings became more important than finding another wife, then getting them all started in their own homes became more important than finding another wife. Then caring for my mother afflicted with Alzhiemer's became more important than finding another wife. Then the grandson with special needs became more important than finding another wife. And recently we found out that our youngest son is terminally ill, and has less that five years to live.Honestly, I didn't know that forgetting a birthday was an "unspeakable act".Bumper[This message has been edited by Bumperii (edited February 15, 2001).]

Bumperii:Forgetting a birthday is not an unspeakable act; what I was referring to is what I didn't mention. I never screamed and yelled or held a grudge over not getting a gift. I admit I was hurt because I always thought of my H. I could be away on a business trip and see something that I would think he would like and I would buy it...for no reason other than I thought of him. One Christmas I got nothing. He bought a digital camera for himself. One year I asked for a cell phone; he bought me one and took it for himself. What hurt me the most was I always got the, I was going to buy you this and that...I was going to take you to dinner, but he never did. So why mention it? He refused to buy me a card because he said buying cards were a ploy to make Hallmark rich. Never mind, I enjoyed getting a card once in awhile. I stopped buying him cards because he didn't appreciate them. I didn't need a gift on my birthday....having someone make dinner would have been nice, or doing the dishes. Hey, I'm a cheap date.I am so sorry to hear about your son; I truly am. Of course, you have more on your mind than mushy cards. Not all of us women are mercenary; we just want to be made to feel like we matter more than the remote control.

LonelySoul,There is a good chance you haven't read my story that brought me to this board. It's what happened after we found out my son was dying that brought me here.In a nutshell, his mother was overwhelmned with grief, and in the process of sharing that with our son, she let the cat out of the bag that she didn't know for sure if his real father was me or her friend, the sock puppet. The revelation knocked him for a loop, and he came to me suggested a DNA paternity test. I refused to do it. It is probably pure selfishness, but I'm not going to let anyone tell me that I'm not his father. I started having flash backs, and came here looking for help.Forgetting a birthday might not be an unspeakable act, but it is pretty darn close. When I go into the Hallmark store, I'm in the women's room, and when the women in work talk about these things, only a fool would pretend that they aren't extremely important. I still don't understand why cards make women feel good, and I really don't care. If a six dollar card will bring someone a moment of happiness, I'll be happy to send it anytime.Bumper

Sisyphus,You said: "It was largely accurate about you, even though it was uncharitable. Your anger is at having your dirty laundry aired. Too bad. That's why you keep your laundry clean."Hmm. Interesting. My ex also told his friends, co-workers, and family intimate details about my life that I had told him and maybe one or two other people in my whole life. While he was at it, he made up a few things to tie it all together and make his "case".Uncharitable is quite an understatement. Fact is, his laundry wasn't clean at all. Nobody's is. But I didn't do the same to him. Why? Because I actually did love him and did not want to hurt him. In fact, I consider this act a MUCH larger betrayal than his week long little rendezvous with his co-worker. There are things about his life that I have not even shared on this website--anonymously or with anyone else I know...friend or family. This is the same old crap I'm hearing. Basically, someone is allowed to be a complete rat b*stard if they suspect or have evidence that their spouse cheated (however you define it). Yet, those who cheat have "no excuses". I'm sick of the double standard. If there is one thing I've learned on this website, is that you can do just about anything you want in a marriage--and justify it--as long as your spouse doesn't end up in the hospital by your hands, or you don't figuratively or literally entertain the idea of sex with someone outside your marriage. Whatever. I can count on one hand (maybe two) the number of people on this board who I consider truly faithful. The rest of them? Who cheated first is just a technicality. I swear, if I ever do decide to date again, I'll know exactly what to say when they ask me why my marriage ended. I've been taking some GOOD notes here. Lonelysoul, If you ever start feeling too bummed, think about this. As long as your ex has you or your behavior as an excuse, he won't ever consider what his part was in the failure of your marriage. What sucks is that there are a ton of women who out there who don't mind being doormats. They actually consider it a virtue. He probably won't have too many problems finding a replacement (like Sisyphus has). Heck, Sisyphus has found two replacements in the span of, what, 6 months? Bravo.

TS:I don't feel bummed about the divorce anymore. It is the right thing to do. My stbxh's behavior was and continues to be atrocious. The EA I engaged in was wrong, but it the big scheme of things it was relatively innocent. I never met him, we were pen pals in flirted with each other once in awhile. When my H told everyone I was having an affair and had committed adultery...I was floored. He even told our pastor. I don't profess to be perfect, but I am honest. I don't judge others on how they live their lives. I felt betrayed by someone who I had trusted to understand. To this day, he still goes on about that silly internet romance. He told me when the divorce is final he is going to sue this person for alienation of affection. Whatever is all I can say. If someone asks me what happened in my marriage, well...no one needs to know a blow by blow accounting. The marriage went bad. I know why, but I won't put the blame completely on my H. I am sure he will find someone else. He goes on and on; yet he claims to be involved with someone half his age, he goes to dances, he goes out...he refuses to a routine visitation schedule with the kids...there are no overnights with him; that would cramp his style. Dating? I wish.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: This is the same old crap I'm hearing. Basically, someone is allowed to be a complete rat b*stard if they suspect or have evidence that their spouse cheated (however you define it). Yet, those who cheat have "no excuses".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think those who cheat have no excuses. Things don't happen in a vacuum. And my comments about the X outing the affair came in the larger context of "why do it?"--meaning it wasn't a particularly productive idea. But, if one has an affair, its discovery and discussion is a consequence that any reasonable person should realize might flow from that affair.To out the affair is to be a complete "rat b*stard"? What a topsy-turvy idea that is! Now, I suppose there are ways to make it sting worse, and embellish the facts, but simply saying: "my spouse cheated on me with so-and-so, and spent our money to go to resort Y and bought X for them, etc." What of it? Lovebuster to be sure, but how much love was in the heart of a spouse who cheated on you?I *never* cheated. Didn't even cross my mind. No EAs even. I subscribed to the "Hong Kong Back Alley Theory," which was that any cheating conducted anywhere would be immediately witnessed by your spouse's best friend. Not that fear of getting caught was my primary motivation not to cheat. It's simply a convenient additional reminder that crime doesn't pay.I'm sure there are spouses who use an affair as a permanent Sword of Damocles over the other spouse's head, condemning them to a perpetual mental and emotional gulag. Well, that's hard to do if it's already been aired to all and sundry. As usual, where we stand has a lot to do with where we sit. I didn't used to think I had a dog in this fight until I realized that there were at least a couple of EAs in my XW's background. I'd love to get the chance to discuss those with her, but that likely won't happen. I'm not going to discuss them with her friends and family. There might have been a time when I would have. I can think of at least one person who is important to her who would shun her ever after if she were told my suspicions about the EAs. What little anger I still have for my XW is now merely over her current uncommunicativeness. I'll have to handle that through other, more appropriate, channels.And as far as me going out and getting "replacements". Yeah, so I did. And I freely admit it was a series of errors born of my intense agony at being abandoned. But, some errors have good consequences. Sure, I still have issues. I'm working them out here. We all have issues, or we wouldn't get offended so easily.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 16, 2001).]

LonelySoul, Student, Sisyphus,Older, Wiser, Sadder Syndrome 101. Spreading the news about an extramarital affair is never a good idea for either BS or WS, especially if you have any intention of saving the marriage. But it isn't easy to keep your mouth shut either. The psychological pain of infidelity is mindbending. So is the discomfort of having an affair discovered. After all, affairs are usually designed to be kept a secret from at least one person. As Student pointed out, it doesn't make a lot of difference who did it first. Dr. Harley will tell you that even if one spouse did it first, in many cases the only reason the other spouse wasn't involved in an affair too was lack of opportunity. In our case, my affair was with alcohol. My ex got involved with a married man. I didn't find out about the affair until they'd been at it for four or five years. It was the ex who had told her family and her girlfriends about her affair. Had she not done that, I still might not know today! She is also the one who told them when I found out about it.In a nutshell, people took sides, her family supporting her, her sister's husband actually hitting on her, and her girlfriends drinking up the gossip. I didn't go to any of them to discuss it, but at least three of them got around to coming to me to let me know how much they knew, (or thought they knew) and basically how ignorant I'd been for not realizing what was going on.Her best friend's husband got involved in a knock down drag em out affair, and she and I started comparing notes, talking on the phone, and sharing feelings. Within a month we were in a motel. That went on for six years after the divorce until she died of a stroke.I'm not proud of this, but it did happen. We were into some really destructive behavior, and if there is a mistake that could be made, we made it.Dr. Harley wasn't around in those days, at least he wasn't known in our part of the country. My ex wife isn't a bad person, she is a wonderful mother and grandmother. She too is now in law enforcement, and she rides with a law enforcement motorcycle drill team; on a bike she is grace personified, woman and machine. Very well liked and respected in the law enforcement community.I really believe that if Dr. Harley's thinking had been around in those days, we might have worked things out.And I firmly believe it is best to keep everyone else out of the loop. Extended family and friends don't need to know, there isn't a whole lot they can do, and they have a tendency to start imposing their own feelings and problems on the situation.With the traumatic shock of discovering an affair, and the traumatic embarassment of being discovered in an affair combined, a couple already has too much to deal with without involving outsiders, other than competent professional help. Love you all,Bumper

Sisyphus, You said: "To out the affair is to be a complete "rat b*stard"? What a topsy-turvy idea that is!"Yep. I consider my ex to be a rat-b*stard because he was having an EA/PA of his own at the time. Basically, he was covering his own tracks. I knew who he told and what he told them. He seemed to enjoy coming home and telling me about what he told his friends about me and their reactions. What is interesting is that, at first, all of our mutual friends thought we could work things out. That is why he had to embellish the story, because they weren't "cooperating" and weren't telling him to kick the b*tch out. My guess is that they've seen this before and knew (but didn't say) that there was more to the story. There is another reason why I didn't do what he did...I'm quite convinced that the mean things people say about others says more about them than it says about the person they are bashing. Yea. That goes for me too. That is why I mostly keep my mouth shut in the real world. First, anyone who has actually been through a divorce knows that neither party is innocent. His claims of innocence and how he was such a perfect husband will fall on deaf ears with them. If the rest of the people he told actually believe everything he said, he either looks like an idiot for marrying me, or an a*shole who abused his wife into a nervous breakdown. Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in between.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: Yep. I consider my ex to be a rat-b*stardI'm quite convinced that the mean things people say about others says more about them than it says about the person they are bashing.anyone who has actually been through a divorce knows that neither party is innocent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I agree. He outed it while his own laundry was dirty on the same subject, embellished the facts, and reveled in making your life miserable by telling you about it in such a way as to have maximum distressing impact. Rat B*stard.I'm not talking about doing that, or claiming total innocence. Nor am I suggesting that it's smart to make even a totally factual outing to people who arguably should be told. I'm just saying that if you do that, your actions are understandable and do not make you a Rat B*stard.

Does anyone here want to get back with their Xs or STBXs? I feel like fighting for my life for mine, does anyone want to join me or help me?Daveyboy

Daveyboy,I did for mine (that is, fought for my life to save my marriage). I have some regrets about doing that now. Long story.I don't necessarily believe all of the Harley stuff. It is alot better than some other stuff I've seen though. At least it is focused in the right direction, which is towards personal growth and responsibility. All I can say is don't do anything you might regret later. There is no need to be a doormat. Do whatever you can to look at your part in things and fix them...for your own sake and noone else's. Don't let your spouse use you or walk all over you with some notion that they will love you again or that it shows commitment. Some people just don't care, and you will feel worse afterward if they decide to get a divorce after they've sucked you dry. Sisyphus, Predictable = understandable, yes.Understandable = justifiable, no. IMO, his only reason for telling his version of the truth to so many people is to get approval and build up his ego. He obviously didn't and doesn't care about Loneysoul at all, otherwise he'd be focusing his effort on understanding her and not doing destructive things against the marriage. I learned some very valuable lessons from my relationship with my ex, and here on MB:1) the appearance of virtue is more important than being virtuous. 2) being right is more important than doing right. 3) You don't need truth and honesty if you can believe your own lies. 4) Don't give anything or risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. 5) Don't bother worrying about meeting someone else's needs. As long as you make sure your needs are met, you won't have any regrets if it falls apart.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheStudent: Understandable = justifiable, no. IMO, his only reason for telling his version of the truth to so many people is to get approval and build up his ego. He obviously didn't and doesn't care about Loneysoul at all, otherwise he'd be focusing his effort on understanding her and not doing destructive things against the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>At this point, I wasn't talking about Lonelysoul's situation at all anymore. I dont' like what her STBXH is doing, nor do I think it's smart--I believe I made that clear. I wouldn't divorce over her "cyber-affair" and I wouldn't tell. In my mind, an EA (especially a first EA--where the WS is unguarded and gets drawn into it imperceptibly and unexpectedly) is grounds for compassion, self-examination on the part of the BS, and rededication to the marriage, assuming the BS and WS are willing. If the marriage breaks up, the BS could say, if asked, something like "I wasn't there for her the way she needed me to be, and someone else became her confidant--soon there was nothing left between us, even though I tried to build it back." The BS can tell the truth without it being a rat-b*stard. But you won't find the "decent" BS doing that willy-nilly ... it's a matter for close confidants only.I can't even hope to respond to the cynicism of your numbered paragraphs. All I can do is pray that someone or something comes along to dispel it, because there are people out there who don't think that way, and they're a whole lot more fun to be around.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: I can't even hope to respond to the cynicism of your numbered paragraphs. All I can do is pray that someone or something comes along to dispel it, because there are people out there who don't think that way, and they're a whole lot more fun to be around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sisyphus,I don't think those numbered paragraphs are going to get despelled. Each of the numbered paragraphs is a rewording of an idea put down a few hundred years ago, each corresponds to one of the precepts of Niccolo Machiavelli in The Prince. Those paragraphs are remarkably similar to some of his rules for aquiring and maintaining power in municipal government. They are time tested, they are still very much applied by politicians, bureaucrats and executives everywhere today.While these ideas work very well in bureaucracy, they are not well suited to individual relationships. I'm surprised that they would even appear, unless the Student has reduced relationships to a mere power struggle between two people. There has to be more to life than that. Yes, there are a whole lot of folks who are more fun than that!I'm glad you pointed out that these ideas are cynical. That is certainly there, So is duplicity. I can't think of any two qualities that will destroy a human relationship any faster.Bumper

"I can't think of any two qualities that will destroy a human relationship any faster."Except maybe ignorance. Many people are following those principles and just don't know it. They like to believe they are living on higher moral ground than that, but when push comes to shove, just about everyone will look out for #1, and will make up any story they need to in order to keep an image of themselves as "good people". The reason why those principles work is because they appeal to most people's naturally selfish needs. I'm not saying that is the best way to be. I'm saying that this is the way the world is, for the most part. There are very few people who make a habit of truly considering the needs of others first, and even fewer who are willing to spend the time and effort to be introspective and objective about their personal shortcomings. Sisyphus, You pretty much just proved my point. Something about certain people being more fun? You are talking about fun for yourself, correct? And that is what its all about. You and making sure you are having fun. uh-huh. Well, you do warn them first at least. Then you don't have to feel guilty about using them. Nice strategy. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited February 21, 2001).]