<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>now the last thing in the world she wants from me is flowers.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do a little something nice anyway. Even if it isn't wanted.<P>

I am sorry that things haven't worked out. Pleaase don't take this personally, but so many men think that when they are married...they are done. They can walk around in their underwear do unspeakable things in front of their wifes, forget birthdays, Valentine's Day, etc and we will still love them. For the most part, we women will, but it helps to keep some mystery in the relationship and to be thoughtful. <P>My sister knew her H only a few weeks when he proposed...they were married within a month. they had all the obstacles piled against them...she was only 21...he was 30; only had been divorced a few months with three kids....They have been married 28 years and he still treats her like she was the best thing that happened to him. And vice versa. They have had some tough times...but they always treated each other like they did in the beginning of their relationship. It works.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>They can walk around in their underwear do unspeakable things in front of their wifes, forget birthdays, Valentine's Day,<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LonelySoul,<P>Got to admit, I made that mistake. When we were married about six or seven years, I forgot her birthday. What followed was the most miserable three months I had ever experienced up to that point in life. It opened up a flood gate of tears, rage, sulking, brooding, and abuse. And not just from her, MIL, her sister and a couple aunts got around to telling me what a horrible, terrible, no good, very bad person I was for forgetting her birthday too. <P>Long story short, since that incident, I've never been able to give either a birthday card or valentine card to her because of love and warm feeling. From that day forward, every one of those lovely cards with the flowery mushy messages was purchased and given not out of love, but out of pressure to avoid the misery that would follow if I neglected to send them. We've been divorced for sixteen years, but those cards still get sent every year. <P>When we got married, I understood that it was a lifetime committment to be faithful to each other and care for each other, but nobody mentioned that I owed it to her to remember to celebate "Her" birthday or "Her" wedding anniversary. Nobody told me that forgetting "Her" birthday was an "unspeakable act".<P>I figured a way out of it, or so I thought. I put all the birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries in my annual daily planner book, and posted reminders to myself about a week ahead of time to go buy cards, presents, arrange parties, send invitations, etc. That worked well for the next three years. Well one day she went into my briefcase for something and found the daily planner book. When she saw those reminders the wheels fell off the wagon. What a scene that was! She started screaming about "if you really loved me, you would remember these things, you wouldn't need to keep records and you wouldn't need to be reminded" And of course, the MIL, anunts, sister and cousins got into the act too.<P>Because of my upbringing in abject poverty, the gift giving associated with birthdays and holidays has never meant much to me. I don't really appreciate gifts, I feel humiliated by them. I did finally realize that this process was extremely important to her. But it didn't matter, the damage was done. <P>I have often thought that if I could have been a Don Juan, (believe me, I'm not)I would have tried to love each woman the way she wanted to be loved. If I ever meet a woman who could feel that way about me, I'll probably marry again. <P>After the divorce, I became the custodial parent, so raising the kids was more important than finding another wife. Then getting them through college became more important than finding another wife; then paying for the weddings became more important than finding another wife, then getting them all started in their own homes became more important than finding another wife. Then caring for my mother afflicted with Alzhiemer's became more important than finding another wife. Then the grandson with special needs became more important than finding another wife. And recently we found out that our youngest son is terminally ill, and has less that five years to live.<P>Honestly, I didn't know that forgetting a birthday was an "unspeakable act".<P>Bumper<p>[This message has been edited by Bumperii (edited February 15, 2001).]

Bumperii:<P>Forgetting a birthday is not an unspeakable act; what I was referring to is what I didn't mention. <P>I never screamed and yelled or held a grudge over not getting a gift. I admit I was hurt because I always thought of my H. I could be away on a business trip and see something that I would think he would like and I would buy it...for no reason other than I thought of him. One Christmas I got nothing. He bought a digital camera for himself. One year I asked for a cell phone; he bought me one and took it for himself. What hurt me the most was I always got the, I was going to buy you this and that...I was going to take you to dinner, but he never did. So why mention it? He refused to buy me a card because he said buying cards were a ploy to make Hallmark rich. Never mind, I enjoyed getting a card once in awhile. I stopped buying him cards because he didn't appreciate them. I didn't need a gift on my birthday....having someone make dinner would have been nice, or doing the dishes. Hey, I'm a cheap date.<P>I am so sorry to hear about your son; I truly am. Of course, you have more on your mind than mushy cards. Not all of us women are mercenary; we just want to be made to feel like we matter more than the remote control.<P>

LonelySoul,<P>There is a good chance you haven't read my story that brought me to this board. It's what happened after we found out my son was dying that brought me here.<P>In a nutshell, his mother was overwhelmned with grief, and in the process of sharing that with our son, she let the cat out of the bag that she didn't know for sure if his real father was me or her friend, the sock puppet.<BR>The revelation knocked him for a loop, and he came to me suggested a DNA paternity test. I refused to do it. It is probably pure selfishness, but I'm not going to let anyone tell me that I'm not his father. I started having flash backs, and came here looking for help.<P>Forgetting a birthday might not be an unspeakable act, but it is pretty darn close. When I go into the Hallmark store, I'm in the women's room, and when the women in work talk about these things, only a fool would pretend that they aren't extremely important. I still don't understand why cards make women feel good, and I really don't care. If a six dollar card will bring someone a moment of happiness, I'll be happy to send it anytime.<P>Bumper<BR>

Sisyphus,<P>You said:<BR>"It was largely accurate about you, even though it was uncharitable. Your anger is at having your dirty laundry aired. Too bad. That's why you keep your laundry clean."<P>Hmm. Interesting. My ex also told his friends, co-workers, and family intimate details about my life that I had told him and maybe one or two other people in my whole life. While he was at it, he made up a few things to tie it all together and make his "case".<P>Uncharitable is quite an understatement. Fact is, his laundry wasn't clean at all. Nobody's is. But I didn't do the same to him. Why? Because I actually did love him and did not want to hurt him. In fact, I consider this act a MUCH larger betrayal than his week long little rendezvous with his co-worker. There are things about his life that I have not even shared on this website--anonymously or with anyone else I know...friend or family. <P>This is the same old crap I'm hearing. Basically, someone is allowed to be a complete rat b*stard if they suspect or have evidence that their spouse cheated (however you define it). Yet, those who cheat have "no excuses". I'm sick of the double standard. If there is one thing I've learned on this website, is that you can do just about anything you want in a marriage--and justify it--as long as your spouse doesn't end up in the hospital by your hands, or you don't figuratively or literally entertain the idea of sex with someone outside your marriage. Whatever. I can count on one hand (maybe two) the number of people on this board who I consider truly faithful. The rest of them? Who cheated first is just a technicality. <P>I swear, if I ever do decide to date again, I'll know exactly what to say when they ask me why my marriage ended. I've been taking some GOOD notes here. <P>Lonelysoul,<BR>If you ever start feeling too bummed, think about this. As long as your ex has you or your behavior as an excuse, he won't ever consider what his part was in the failure of your marriage. What sucks is that there are a ton of women who out there who don't mind being doormats. They actually consider it a virtue. He probably won't have too many problems finding a replacement (like Sisyphus has). Heck, Sisyphus has found two replacements in the span of, what, 6 months? Bravo.<P>

TS:<P>I don't feel bummed about the divorce anymore. It is the right thing to do. My stbxh's behavior was and continues to be atrocious. The EA I engaged in was wrong, but it the big scheme of things it was relatively innocent. I never met him, we were pen pals in flirted with each other once in awhile. When my H told everyone I was having an affair and had committed adultery...I was floored. He even told our pastor. I don't profess to be perfect, but I am honest. I don't judge others on how they live their lives. I felt betrayed by someone who I had trusted to understand. To this day, he still goes on about that silly internet romance. He told me when the divorce is final he is going to sue this person for alienation of affection. Whatever is all I can say. <P>If someone asks me what happened in my marriage, well...no one needs to know a blow by blow accounting. The marriage went bad. I know why, but I won't put the blame completely on my H. I am sure he will find someone else. He goes on and on; yet he claims to be involved with someone half his age, he goes to dances, he goes out...he refuses to a routine visitation schedule with the kids...there are no overnights with him; that would cramp his style. Dating? I wish.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>This is the same old crap I'm hearing. Basically, someone is allowed to be a complete rat b*stard if they suspect or have evidence that their spouse cheated (however you define it). Yet, those who cheat have "no excuses".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think those who cheat have no excuses. Things don't happen in a vacuum. And my comments about the X outing the affair came in the larger context of "why do it?"--meaning it wasn't a particularly productive idea. But, if one has an affair, its discovery and discussion is a consequence that any reasonable person should realize might flow from that affair.<P>To out the affair is to be a complete "rat b*stard"? What a topsy-turvy idea that is! Now, I suppose there are ways to make it sting worse, and embellish the facts, but simply saying: "my spouse cheated on me with so-and-so, and spent our money to go to resort Y and bought X for them, etc." What of it? Lovebuster to be sure, but how much love was in the heart of a spouse who cheated on you?<P>I *never* cheated. Didn't even cross my mind. No EAs even. I subscribed to the "Hong Kong Back Alley Theory," which was that any cheating conducted anywhere would be immediately witnessed by your spouse's best friend. Not that fear of getting caught was my primary motivation not to cheat. It's simply a convenient additional reminder that crime doesn't pay.<P>I'm sure there are spouses who use an affair as a permanent <I>Sword of Damocles</I> over the other spouse's head, condemning them to a perpetual mental and emotional <I>gulag</I>. Well, that's hard to do if it's already been aired to all and sundry. <P>As usual, where we stand has a lot to do with where we sit. I didn't used to think I had a dog in this fight until I realized that there were at least a couple of EAs in my XW's background. I'd love to get the chance to discuss those with her, but that likely won't happen. I'm not going to discuss them with her friends and family. There might have been a time when I would have. I can think of at least one person who is important to her who would shun her ever after if she were told my suspicions about the EAs. What little anger I still have for my XW is now merely over her current uncommunicativeness. I'll have to handle that through other, more appropriate, channels.<P>And as far as me going out and getting "replacements". Yeah, so I did. And I freely admit it was a series of errors born of my intense agony at being abandoned. But, some errors have good consequences. Sure, I still have issues. I'm working them out here. We all have issues, or we wouldn't get offended so easily.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 16, 2001).]

LonelySoul, Student, Sisyphus,<P>Older, Wiser, Sadder Syndrome 101. <P>Spreading the news about an extramarital affair is never a good idea for either BS or WS, especially if you have any intention of saving the marriage. But it isn't easy to keep your mouth shut either. The psychological pain of infidelity is mindbending. So is the discomfort of having an affair discovered. After all, affairs are usually designed to be kept a secret from at least one person. <P>As Student pointed out, it doesn't make a lot of difference who did it first. Dr. Harley will tell you that even if one spouse did it first, in many cases the only reason the other spouse wasn't involved in an affair too was lack of opportunity. <P>In our case, my affair was with alcohol. My ex got involved with a married man. I didn't find out about the affair until they'd been at it for four or five years. It was the ex who had told her family and her girlfriends about her affair. Had she not done that, I still might not know today! She is also the one who told them when I found out about it.<P>In a nutshell, people took sides, her family supporting her, her sister's husband actually hitting on her, and her girlfriends drinking up the gossip. I didn't go to any of them to discuss it, but at least three of them got around to coming to me to let me know how much they knew, (or thought they knew) and basically how ignorant I'd been for not realizing what was going on.<P>Her best friend's husband got involved in a knock down drag em out affair, and she and I started comparing notes, talking on the phone, and sharing feelings. Within a month we were in a motel. That went on for six years after the divorce until she died of a stroke.<P>I'm not proud of this, but it did happen. We were into some really destructive behavior, and if there is a mistake that could be made, we made it.<P>Dr. Harley wasn't around in those days, at least he wasn't known in our part of the country. My ex wife isn't a bad person, she is a wonderful mother and grandmother. She too is now in law enforcement, and she rides with a law enforcement motorcycle drill team; on a bike she is grace personified, woman and machine. Very well liked and respected in the law enforcement community.<P>I really believe that if Dr. Harley's thinking had been around in those days, we might have worked things out.<P>And I firmly believe it is best to keep everyone else out of the loop. Extended family and friends don't need to know, there isn't a whole lot they can do, and they have a tendency to start imposing their own feelings and problems on the situation.<P>With the traumatic shock of discovering an affair, and the traumatic embarassment of being discovered in an affair combined, a couple already has too much to deal with without involving outsiders, other than competent professional help. <P>Love you all,<P>Bumper

Sisyphus,<BR>You said:<BR>"To out the affair is to be a complete "rat b*stard"? What a topsy-turvy idea that is!"<P>Yep. I consider my ex to be a rat-b*stard because he was having an EA/PA of his own at the time. Basically, he was covering his own tracks. I knew who he told and what he told them. He seemed to enjoy coming home and telling me about what he told his friends about me and their reactions. What is interesting is that, at first, all of our mutual friends thought we could work things out. That is why he had to embellish the story, because they weren't "cooperating" and weren't telling him to kick the b*tch out. My guess is that they've seen this before and knew (but didn't say) that there was more to the story. <P>There is another reason why I didn't do what he did...<P>I'm quite convinced that the mean things people say about others says more about them than it says about the person they are bashing. Yea. That goes for me too. That is why I mostly keep my mouth shut in the real world. <P>First, anyone who has actually been through a divorce knows that neither party is innocent. His claims of innocence and how he was such a perfect husband will fall on deaf ears with them. If the rest of the people he told actually believe everything he said, he either looks like an idiot for marrying me, or an a*shole who abused his wife into a nervous breakdown. Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in between.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Yep. I consider my ex to be a rat-b*stard<P>I'm quite convinced that the mean things people say about others says more about them than it says about the person they are bashing.<P>anyone who has actually been through a divorce knows that neither party is innocent.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I agree. He outed it while his own laundry was dirty on the same subject, embellished the facts, and reveled in making your life miserable by telling you about it in such a way as to have maximum distressing impact. Rat B*stard.<P>I'm not talking about doing that, or claiming total innocence. Nor am I suggesting that it's smart to make even a totally factual outing to people who arguably should be told. I'm just saying that if you do that, your actions are understandable and do not make you a Rat B*stard.

Does anyone here want to get back with their Xs or STBXs? I feel like fighting for my life for mine, does anyone want to join me or help me?<P>Daveyboy

Daveyboy,<P>I did for mine (that is, fought for my life to save my marriage). I have some regrets about doing that now. Long story.<P>I don't necessarily believe all of the Harley stuff. It is alot better than some other stuff I've seen though. At least it is focused in the right direction, which is towards personal growth and responsibility. All I can say is don't do anything you might regret later. There is no need to be a doormat. Do whatever you can to look at your part in things and fix them...for your own sake and noone else's. Don't let your spouse use you or walk all over you with some notion that they will love you again or that it shows commitment. Some people just don't care, and you will feel worse afterward if they decide to get a divorce after they've sucked you dry. <P>Sisyphus,<BR>Predictable = understandable, yes.<P>Understandable = justifiable, no. IMO, his only reason for telling his version of the truth to so many people is to get approval and build up his ego. He obviously didn't and doesn't care about Loneysoul at all, otherwise he'd be focusing his effort on understanding her and not doing destructive things against the marriage. I learned some very valuable lessons from my relationship with my ex, and here on MB:<P>1) the appearance of virtue is more important than being virtuous.<BR>2) being right is more important than doing right.<BR>3) You don't need truth and honesty if you can believe your own lies.<BR>4) Don't give anything or risk anything you aren't prepared to lose.<BR>5) Don't bother worrying about meeting someone else's needs. As long as you make sure your needs are met, you won't have any regrets if it falls apart.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Understandable = justifiable, no. IMO, his only reason for telling his version of the truth to so many people is to get approval and build up his ego. He obviously didn't and doesn't care about Loneysoul at all, otherwise he'd be focusing his effort on understanding her and not doing destructive things against the marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At this point, I wasn't talking about Lonelysoul's situation at all anymore. I dont' like what her STBXH is doing, nor do I think it's smart--I believe I made that clear. I wouldn't divorce over her "cyber-affair" and I wouldn't tell. In my mind, an EA (especially a first EA--where the WS is unguarded and gets drawn into it imperceptibly and unexpectedly) is grounds for compassion, self-examination on the part of the BS, and rededication to the marriage, assuming the BS and WS are willing. If the marriage breaks up, the BS could say, if asked, something like "I wasn't there for her the way she needed me to be, and someone else became her confidant--soon there was nothing left between us, even though I tried to build it back." <P>The BS can tell the truth without it being a rat-b*stard. But you won't find the "decent" BS doing that willy-nilly ... it's a matter for close confidants only.<P>I can't even hope to respond to the cynicism of your numbered paragraphs. All I can do is pray that someone or something comes along to dispel it, because there are people out there who don't think that way, and they're a whole lot more fun to be around.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I can't even hope to respond to the cynicism of your numbered paragraphs. All I can do is pray that someone or something comes along to dispel it, because there are people out there who don't think that way, and they're a whole lot more fun to be around.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sisyphus,<P>I don't think those numbered paragraphs are going to get despelled. Each of the numbered paragraphs is a rewording of an idea put down a few hundred years ago, each corresponds to one of the precepts of Niccolo Machiavelli in The Prince. Those paragraphs are remarkably similar to some of his rules for aquiring and maintaining power in municipal government. They are time tested, they are still very much applied by politicians, bureaucrats and executives everywhere today.<P>While these ideas work very well in bureaucracy, they are not well suited to individual relationships. I'm surprised that they would even appear, unless the Student has reduced relationships to a mere power struggle between two people. There has to be more to life than that. Yes, there are a whole lot of folks who are more fun than that!<P>I'm glad you pointed out that these ideas are cynical. That is certainly there, So is duplicity. I can't think of any two qualities that will destroy a human relationship any faster.<P>Bumper<P>

"I can't think of any two qualities that will destroy a human relationship any faster."<P>Except maybe ignorance. Many people are following those principles and just don't know it. They like to believe they are living on higher moral ground than that, but when push comes to shove, just about everyone will look out for #1, and will make up any story they need to in order to keep an image of themselves as "good people". The reason why those principles work is because they appeal to most people's naturally selfish needs. <P>I'm not saying that is the best way to be. I'm saying that this is the way the world is, for the most part. There are very few people who make a habit of truly considering the needs of others first, and even fewer who are willing to spend the time and effort to be introspective and objective about their personal shortcomings. <P>Sisyphus,<BR>You pretty much just proved my point. Something about certain people being more fun? You are talking about fun for yourself, correct? And that is what its all about. You and making sure you are having fun. uh-huh. Well, you do warn them first at least. Then you don't have to feel guilty about using them. Nice strategy. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited February 21, 2001).]