Can anyone give me some advise on how to handle this situation. W is seeing a personal counslor, all they are working on is W herself, she has no intrest in me whatsoever, Claims 2 1/2 yr old D will be fine. She asked me to leave 4 months ago. We see each other on the weekends and have done things together as a family. She just wants out of our relationship. I need to find a new W and she needs to find a new H and things will be fine. She is depressed and has be diagnosed with a chemical imbalance. Im am at a lost and desperate. Have been practicing Weiner-Davis DBing stratagies. W says she has noticed that i have changed, but it doesnt effect her. I feel that this counslor has made he join a cult or something. Can really use some advise here. <P>Daveyboy

I've been to two different counselors over the past year and a half (H of 11 years left and is now living with OW). My H also goes to his own counselor.<P>My first counselor said we weren't meant for each other, that I should just move on, find someone else, etc. (this was only 1 month after I found out about the affair and the same month that he moved out.) Well, I stopped going to her and found another counselor, who is much better. She deals with "what is" yet doesn't make me feel stupid or wrong for hoping (very slight hope at this point) that maybe the marriage could be saved. <P>My H's counselor (from what he says) doesn't address the marriage at all, nor does he in his comments. Of course, it's him that wants to get out. But you'd think that they would at least ADDRESS it some....o well. <P>So, from my experience, I don't think counselors are there to help us, i.e. find right and wrong. I think they are there only to help us thru whatever we THINK is right or wrong for us.<P>In my opinion, I would try to visit a counselor who's values match yours (like a Christian counselor, if you are Christian) at least once in addition to your regular counselor (if you have one). <P>As far as your wife's counseling, there isn't anything you can do about that, I don't see. It's really hard to think that on one hand your spouse is getting some much needed help, but on the other hand, the help he/she is getting can seem skewed in it's effect on them.<P>I feel for you. If you aren't in counseling yourself, may I suggest that you do that as well. Stay true to your values and beliefs and you'll hopefully find a counselor who will respect that.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Thanks for the reply Mrs.O<BR>Does anyone have any idea where I can find an<BR>answer here. I would just like to know what techniques to use and how to handle this situation. some other questions because i am new to this site. <BR>1) where are plans A and B listed on this site?<BR>2) is This the right thread i should be on in my situation?<BR>3) does any one having any inspiring techniques or stories posted anywhere<BR>4) for my situation, I am always open for suggestions<P>Thanks <BR>Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>1)where are plans A and B listed on this site?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A> <P>Plans A and B are further discussed in the book "Surviving An Affair" as well.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>2) is This the right thread i should be on in my situation?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, please continue to come back for support, help, info. We may not have the answers, but we can relate and you might find some help.<P>Also, look in the Basic Concepts section for help....<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html</A> <P>And in the Q&A Columns...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html</A> <P>Also, consider calling the Counseling office and talking to Dr. Steve Harley or Dr. Jennifer Harley about your specific question.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html</A> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>3) does any one having any inspiring techniques or stories posted anywhere for my situation, I am always open for suggestions</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Go to the "In Recovery" section of the forum and look for success stories or post there asking for success stories.<P>You've come to the right place for help, it just might take awhile. Please don't give up. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited February 13, 2001).]

Here's a really wacky idea, that might be a big lovebuster...<P>You could try to set up an appointment with your wife's "personal counselor" <I>for yourself</I>. If the counselor will accept you as a client, then you might get a better sense of this counselor's philosophy. Or, you could see if the counselor will see you to help you understand what you can do to help your wife.<P>The counselor will not be allowed to discuss your wife's sessions with you, but if the counselor can see you as a "real" person instead of a distorted image painted by your wife, then the counselor's approach might actually change.<P>There is another aspect of this situation to consider. The reason this counselor is working solely on your wife <I>may</I> be because of your wife's depression. Depending on the causes and extent of your wife's depression, it is could be unrealistic for you to expect work on your marriage to be effective. You mentioned that your wife has noticed that you have changed, but it doesn't affect her. That's <I>not</I> an indication that your wife has joined a cult. That is completely typical of depression.<BR>You may just need to be more patient.<P>Unless your wife has convinced the counselor that <I>you</I> are the cause of her depression, then the counselor should not be advising divorce. Your wife is in a psychological state where her judgement is impaired, and she should not be making such a life-changing decision right now. Any decent counselor should take this into account.<P>Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of bad counselors out there, and their capacity to do irreparable damage is enormous.<BR>

Ok so counslor has W convinced its me that is causing the depression lets say, Now what are my steps to get my W back? W left a bag of valentines cookies for me and Roommate, left note that says Cookies in bag are for you and ________ On the baggie she writes in magic marker Happy Valentines ________, leaves my name off it and signs my 2 1/2 yr old Ds name. What does that tell you...<BR>sometimes I get so frustrated and I just have to feel sorry for her that she needs to stoop so low. I Think she does this to prove she has no feelings for me and doesnt want me to get my hopes up that we can ever reconsile. Her big line is after we do something as a family or have fun as a family, a switch goes on in her head and says its not suppose to be like this and she blurts out "Now I dont want you to get your hopes up here"..what a bunch of BS

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>Ok so counslor has W convinced its me that is causing the depression lets say, Now what are my steps to get my W back?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can't "get" her back. Anything you do to <I>try</I> to get her back will probably only push her away. You can only hope and pray that she will come back of her own accord. And meanwhile take every available opportunity to show her that it would be a good idea.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>W left a bag of valentines cookies for me and Roommate ...leaves my name off it and signs my 2 1/2 yr old Ds name. What does that tell you...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It tells me that your wife was thinking of you, and found a way of doing something nice for you without admitting it to herself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I Think she does this to prove she has no feelings for me and doesnt want me to get my hopes up that we can ever reconsile. Her big line is after we do something as a family or have fun as a family, a switch goes on in her head and says its not suppose to be like this and she blurts out "Now I dont want you to get your hopes up here"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And <I>who</I> do you think she is addressing? Who do you think she feels a need to prove this to? Here's a hint: it <I>may</I> not be you!<P>Try to take comfort in the fact that your wife is still interacting with you, and the experience is sometimes positive. This gives you the opportunity to put Plan A into effect. Also, the fact that you are separated gives you more opportunity to take care of yourself so that you can maintain the internal resources necessary to do Plan A <I>well</I>.<P>Daveyboy, if you really want good advice, we're going to have to know a bit more about your situation. So far, all you've said is that your wife "just wants out" of your relationship. Do you have any idea <I>why</I>? Does she have specific complaints?<BR>

Well Davey, it seems your going thru a lot of what ive gone thru in the begining of my marital problems. Most counslors suck. ive been seperated 3 years and wife is finally getting the help she needs. She was diagnosed with manic depression a year ago and was a meth junkie. She had a counslor 4 years ago tell her to leave my [censored] and of course the counslor was divorced herself!! Even wife at the time admitted the lady was a flake. On to more counslors. I went to a great marriage counslor and she wouldnt come with me for 6 months, then when she did she didnt like what she heard and believe me i didnt always like what the counslor told me either,but she left me for the first time. It was then that i knew something was wrong mentally with her cause she blamed me for everything and although i wasnt the perfect husband i wasnt a bad one either. We have 2 kids and my sis is helping me with my 6 year old son and 11 yr old step daughter is at her dads. Her counslors now are good ones and they dont just put her on prozac and blame me for all her problems. shes on lithium and a bunch of other drugs and she now has faced herself and that im a loving husband that has loved her thru a books worth of hell that she has put me thru and i never gave up on her. We are now putting our family back together and she spends the weekends with me while she is in a treatment home. I suggest if ya want your wife back and your marriage to be healed that you find a strong faith in God, otherwise you wont make it. Have some courage and dont give up, it sounds like your wife may have some mental problems and she will try to fool doctors and counslors into believing its all your fault. Mine did and many bought it. But i put my faith in God and all the lousy people involved in my wifes life (counsilors, doctors, men, her mother) have all been exposed as liers and fools messin with what God has joined together and i wouldnt want to be in there shoes when judgment hits. Good Luck, Mark

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>W is seeing a personal counslor, all they are working on is W herself, she has no intrest in me whatsoever, </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi DB, welcome aboard,<P>Not all counslors are marriage counslors, and as you have figured out, the fact that a counslor calls himself a counslor doesn't mean he or she is particularly good at it.<P>My ex was a therapy shopper. She and one of her girl friends bounced around from counslor to counslor. Each new one would be the greatest thing since sliced bread for a few weeks or months, then on to someone else they heard about. I still believe that a number of these counslors had as much to do with the end of the marriage as the OM did, and after we separated, my ex wound up dating the last guru we were seeing.<P>There are an awful lot of people going to counsling who don't want help and who don't want to change their own behavior, they just want somebody to tell them they are right. The idea is that then they feel "validated", whatever that means. As long as the client has the means to pay for the sessions, there are precious few counslors who have the integrity to admit that nothing is being accomplished and end the sessions.<P>The point is that very few people in this world want to get set straight. Forgive the anecdote, but the women in our family, mother, aunts, cousins, wives and daughters all seem to have one thing in common, they are never wrong! Even when forced to recognize an obvious mistake, the recognition is normally qualified by "Yes, but___etc., etc." followed by any number of fallacious arguments. My ex would tell you that she was only wrong one time in her life, and that was when she thought she had made a mistake. <P>People willingly believe two things, what they want to believe, and what they fear. From what you wrote, I wouldn't make too much of those valentine cookies. It sounds like you really want to be a part of the equation; She may not even have you in the picture. She may be just teaching your daughter about Valentines and helping her to participate in the celebration of Valentine's Day. She may also have been looking for way to do something nice for you.<P>I hope you stay in the forum and particularly with marriage builders for a while. The experience has been a real eye opener for me. Recommend that you visit the links listed in the posts here and read some of Dr. Harley's columns. They are very readable, and for whatever reason, they make sense to this head on my shoulders. Dr. Harley addresses a wide variety of sensitive issues with understanding and kindness.<P>We don't know your situation yet, but we all sense that it didn't get that way overnight, and it isn't going to heal itself overnight either. Keep coming back, it works!<P>Bumper <P> <P>

Specific Questions about our Marriage would be helpful.<BR>The only thing W has said since our seperation is that when D was born My life went on as normal and her and D sat in background. Also gave me the I dont love you as a husband BS. Had problems intamitly about 3 years ago she said something is just wrong I dont know what it is... I know what it was it was me not doing the little loving things to make her feel loved as a spouse. We were busy working on our first house and really turned into just a friend alot. We both work an awful lot. I have not been the best husband I am the first to admit, but W never said she like to see anything change, she thought it was just something she was going through. I know what I have done wrong in this relationship now...I just want a chance to correct it. She told a friend of hers once at the start she was going to take me back but decided against it, as she started seeing counslor. she also told SIL that she did have remorse about not giving me a second chance. The other night she told SIL and a friend, that things will be fine with us once my husband finds a new wife and she finds a new husband, that hurt. This was right after she asked SIL if she had seen me lately and how good i looked after losing a bunch of weight. (40lbs) to be exact. enough I hope to get you guys started, I will answer any more questions anyone has. I need my W back..

I get a little defensive when the subject of counseling comes up...since I do this for a living. First of all, the counselor is working with his or her client. It is unethical to discuss a client with anyone unless the client has admitted that they are going to hurt themselves or some one else. Different counselors use different methods...agreeably, there are some that I wouldn't be comfortable with either. It depends on how you, the client are. <P>A counselor's job is to help you work through your issues...make suggestions...not tell you what to do or preach to you about what to do or how to save your marriage. It is not the counselor's job to impose his or her beliefs on their client.<P>My stbxh is very controlling. He once called my counselor and actually told him that I was behaving recklessly and if I showed any signs that I was softening toward the marriage to tell me how wonderful he was. When I found out I was angry beyond words. Of course, the counselor never did it or did he tell me about the phone call...my H actually told me what he had done after he asked me if the counselor mentioned him to me?<P>So often we want to place the blame on someone else. We are all responsible for our own actions...no one else is accountable for them...only we are.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>A counselor's job is to help you work through your issues...make suggestions...not tell you what to do or preach to you about what to do or how to save your marriage. It is not the counselor's job to impose his or her beliefs on their client.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I would find a counselor inadequate if they followed those constraints. Sometimes, the counselor should "tell it like it is" and provide a firm directive. Otherwise, what's the point? We're there with the counselor because we're tired of making our own mistakes. And not all of us respond to a gentle corraling of our thoughts.<P>My psychiatrist has from time to time said something direct and to the point. I don't always agree or obey, but it lets me know that he has a firm belief, and gives me pause to think about taking what he said very seriously.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My stbxh is very controlling. He once called my counselor and actually told him that I was behaving recklessly and if I showed any signs that I was softening toward the marriage to tell me how wonderful he was. When I found out I was angry beyond words. Of course, the counselor never did it or did he tell me about the phone call...my H actually told me what he had done after he asked me if the counselor mentioned him to me?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, so that's controlling. But it's perhaps also a poor expression of a loving feeling. Do you <I>always</I> look at STBXH with a "glass is half empty" mentality? Or maybe a "glass is half empty, and the stuff that's in there is poison, and I'll drink it just to spite STBXH" mentality?<P>"Controlling" behavior is something the doer can learn to ameliorate. So is intolerance of others' personal weaknesses.

No, I don't always look at my stbxh in terms of the glass being half empty. I realize it is hard not to jump in and defend my H based on your own personal issues. That is why you are an attorney and not a counselor. I wouldn't say my H is contolling if he weren't. And he is. I could go and on to get my point across. Let's just say he has gone beyond the normal divorce nastiness. In short, he has slandered me, harassed me, physcially assaulted me, dragged me through court four times, taken every penny of the marital assets, refused to agree to a visitation schedule...afterall, I may then have the opportunity to make plans and go out. He has invaded my privacy by breaking into my email account (this is after the separation) and read my personal email...Yes, he is the personification of a loving spouse. There are always two perceptions in a marriage; yours and your spouse. <P>Sure, a good counselor tells it like it is, but they don't make judgement calls or say you should do this and that... when they don't have the perception of the other person. They need to be objective. There is a difference in telling someone like it is and projecting their own beliefs. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>My stbxh is very controlling. He once called my counselor and actually told him that I was behaving recklessly and if I showed any signs that I was softening toward the marriage to tell me how wonderful he was. When I found out I was angry beyond words. Of course, the counselor never did it or did he tell me about the phone call...my H actually told me what he had done after he asked me if the counselor mentioned him to me?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't understand why you became so angry. It sounds as though you knew your counselor would see through this rather pathetic attempt at control, and would respond appropriately. If anything, this experience should have served as external corroboration to your counselor of what your husband was like.<P>But I guess I am making the mistake of expecting feelings to conform to rationality, when feelings are seldom rational and are seldom in response to isolated experiences. My own reaction in this situation would probably be one of amusement, and I'm not sure that's a healthy response either. Implicit in that response is a certain amount of disrespect, and while a sense of humor is often touted as an ally in dealing with anger management (which in itself is just a specialized form of pain management), at what point does it become an unhealthy means of hiding from one's "true" feelings?<P>It's all so complicated. <P>Then again, perhaps I am being defensive myself, since I have recently done something sort of "similar" to what your husband did. After my wife left me, she stopped seeing the psychotherapist that we had both been seeing (separately and together), and started seeing a new one. (It's probably just a coincidence, but it was only a couple of weeks later that my wife filed for divorce.) Anyhow, after I learned about this new therapist last month, I sent a letter to her, stating my willingness to help in any way, and suggesting that she might find it helpful to consult with our original therapist. I expressed my willingness to waive confidentiality for that purpose.<P>I have little doubt that my wife would see this as "controlling behavior". I am quite sure that if/when she finds out she will be angry with me. Nevertheless, I thought it was something I <I>had</I> to do. This therapist knows nothing about me or our marriage other than what my wife has told her, and it's a sure bet that whatever picture my wife has painted bears very little resemblance to reality. It's hard to give good advice when you are being misled as to the facts.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>I wouldn't say my H is contolling if he weren't. And he is. I could go and on to get my point across. Let's just say he has gone beyond the normal divorce nastiness. <P>There are always two perceptions in a marriage; yours and your spouse. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then, just as an exercise, why not write down what his justification or defense would be for his every misdeed, if you don't already have such an explanation? If you already have it, write it down too. <P>I'm not calling them valid in any way, and you don't have to either. And next to any incidence of physical abuse, you have every right to put "Nothing can justify this". <P>Softening your attitude toward him will help you to live with what he has done (and will help you to not provoke more of same--but that doesn't mean you don't stand up for yourself), and to live with yourself.

The point is now how do we get around this if we want our spouses back? How do we get them to see a diffrent counslor or go to a marriage counslor? Who can point out that they feel they have been to a bad counslor. Who can tell them that there 2 1/2 yr old D is not fine, and most likely will not be fine. How can someone sit and take the questions that this little girl asks such as "Dad you don't have to go to ____ house yet?, you stay here with me and mommy?" or "Mom, Dad stay here with me and you today?" These are two examples that have happened in the last two weeks. The first one W didnt even answer, the second one she said, "He's here right now, isnt he". How can she take this so lightly, you would think it would bother her and make her think. I almost start to cry when I hear this.

Sisyphus:<P>If I were dealing with someone who was rational, I could do your exercise, but I am not. I am not saying this to be mean spirited or do I harbor a lot of bad feelings. I don't. In short, I am tired. What I want is to have peace in my life. Believe me, any other female would have had his behind thrown in jail for some of his actions; not only to me, but his children. We have all suffered greatly. There has been a magnitude of verbal, emotional, and physcial abuse. It's hard to soften my attitude toward him when it hurts so much. <P>My husband would argue that he was a great husband, that I merely fell out of love with him and decided to leave the marriage. That in itself is his reasoning for his behavior. You, see, with him it was never a question of him doing wrong. Every problem was my fault, or it was the people I worked with...they were coaching me, or it was my parents, or the minister, or the counselor. During marriage counseling he would rail into me...many times the counselor had to interject so I could get a word in. <P>Divorce was filed last February. It is still not final because my stbxh has done everything in his power to stall things. His reasoning here is that if I get the divorce, that is all I should get. He believes that everything else; house, money, investments, etc, that were accumulated in 16 years of marriage are exclusively his. I don't deserve a cent, even though I have worked continously. <P>I don't believe my case is one of misguided percception. He is controlling. Short, of me backing down and walking away with nothing,he sees no other solution.<BR>

Daveyboy:<P>You said your wife has a chemical unbalance...is she taking medication? If she isn't, she most likely should be and be under the care of a psychiatrist. You are dealing with something altogether different than a stubborn wife. I know first hand...my stbxh is on meds too for a neuro disorder.<P>To answer your other question; you can't make an adult go to another counselor or force them to go to marriage counseling if they are not willing. First of all, your W may like her counselor and think she is wonderful...you may not, but you aren't going to her, so your W won't care. <P>Secondly, the marriage counseling will not work if she doesn't want to go. I work with marriage counselors and the success rate is only about 35-40%. Those that make it are those couples who are dedicated to fix their marriage. You know, the saying, "it takes two."<P>Divorce always effects children. Anyone who says it doesn't is dead wrong. My two boys are having a terrible time. My spouse insists on dragging the kids into it constantly. Every time he's with them, it takes me days to get them back to normal. <BR>There is no way your D at 2 is going to understand what is going on...you, yourself don't. [<BR>

What are your suggestions than for my situation. Yes Wife is taking the medication called Celexia, I belive thats what it is called.<P>Thanks for your help<BR>Daveyboy

Lonelysoul<BR>Do you have any intrest in getting back with your H? I forgot do you have any kids. Has he ever recieved a second chance to fix himself and other problems?<P>Daveyboy