Here is my story. I am new to this and confused, as I see all of us are!

My H and I were married in 1993. I was pg. at the time, I was married before but infertility broke up that marriage. I thought I couldn’t get pg, but that was wrong. Anyway, we have had many happy years together. Our son was born 1993 and our daughter was born in 1996.

I am a well compensated medical professional. He has his own business. He went back to school to get his teaching degree after a few years. I worked and put him through school. Then he taught for one year where he met the OW.

The year he met her I had a lot of stress at work with long hours, 2 kids under the age of 7 and he had long hours too. My excuse I guess. The only reason he has ever given me for the affair was that we lost our intimacy and didn’t have sex often enough. And there was “chemistry” between the two of them. She is a big flirt; not particularly attractive. By the way I am in good shape and don’t look my age. I look a lot better than she does. Even my H says I am more sexy than she is.

The OW got pg. and had twin girls in 2001. I found out about the affair 8/11/08. At the time she was pg again (but had a spontaneous miscarriage), they had an apartment together that I didn’t know about. Over the past year they began their relationship in earnest and they texted each other constantly, had breakfast together (while he allegedly was at Home Depot setting up his jobs.) (He is now a general contractor so is self employed and runs his own time.) He was getting up at 3:45 am to walk with her for an hour. Came home and we got our daughter ready for school then he left again to have breakfast with her. They met at the apartment at lunch for lunch and sex. I had been withdrawing into my shell over the last couple years. I felt alone and depressed but wasn’t sure why. I am sure his withdrawing from me contributed subconsciously, but I know we both contributed to the current situation.

Well, 2 months after I found out he decided he wanted to stay with me. The walking together tailed off. Breakfasts stopped around then. They had the apartment until Dec 1st. (Lied to me about getting rid of it the first time.) He has broken up with her several times but goes back to her. It starts with texts “I love you, I miss you, I think of you all the time” as recently as 1 month ago. Then they are back in love again. I don’t think they are having sex. He says "honey I am right here with you". Of course he has said that all along, even when he was seriously in love with her and considering leaving me for her.

I asked him to leave me many times but he doesn’t want to go. No one knows in either family. Our kids know there is stress, but not about what. He hates it for anyone to think everything isn’t perfect with us. I lost a lot of weight because I couldn’t eat and a friend expressed concern to him and he was upset with me that they thought things weren’t perfect! I couldn't just lie and say it was a special "diet"! I just didn't say anything about losing weight when asked.

I feel he should stop contacting her about anything other than the kids. He agreed at first but then said he will remain friends with her. That’s who he is and he cannot limit his conversations to her to “how are the kids” alone; take it or leave it. He says it will die out between them. She was married throughout this whole time but “coincidentally” her husband happened to find out 3 weeks after I did, a couple days after I visited my lawyer. Of course, he believes her when she says that was an accident! I bet she is really pissed he hasn't left me for her. Obviously that was her hope!

Her husband has known all along the twins were not his but he has gone along with it until now. She maintains that she hasn’t had sex with her husband for 8 years. (No, I don’t believe that either, but my H does.) There are no DNA tests and I doubt there will be. She is not asking for child support (yet.) But my H believes they are his kids and will not accept any other possibility so proof will never occur because he believes they are his.

Ok, so here is my problem. I love him, He loves me. He says he wants to stay with me. He can now say he loves me and is committed to me with only a little hesitation. But he refuses to tell me how often he talks to her and forbids me to look at his phones to see if there are messages. He told me that I was the one stirring this up and that it will burn out on its own. She has started dating others. I think she is just trying to make him jealous, but he doesn’t think so. If I continue to look at his phones he says he will leave me!

He wants to continue to see the twins regularly, Every week for an hour or two and talk to them. I think they will eventually think it is strange that “mommy’s friend from work” who they never see with his family or socialize with picks them up from school one day a week. He loves kids and is a wonderful father to our kids. I can understand he has an emotional attachment to them. On the other hand, he has only become involved with them the last year or so and was only peripherally involved before. I even understand and accept that he wants to be involved with the kids. We disagree on how much is good for the twins, but that relationship will really depend on what happens to the adults. I just can't accept him being her "friend". I think this is dangerous to our marriage and a risk for continuing the affair.

Is there anyone who has been able to maintain a marriage with someone who continues to visit his children, and most importantly his friendship, with the OW? When he is with me he shows me he loves me, he tries to call and text me multiple times a day. He is kind and caring to me. But, when he is defensive or I have lost my temper or done something stupid that he says he wonders why he is staying with me but he hasn’t left yet. He also said that when he got rid of the apartment they shared he wanted to get another right away but decided not to. I think this was to comfort me, but it surely didn’t. He basically gave me an ultimatum: “leave my relationship with her for me to manage. It is dying on its own. Stop poking and prodding at it. She is moving on and wants to have a relationship with someone who can be there for her all the time and I can’t be.” But then he usually says something sympathetic about how hard it is for her being all alone.

I think once she gets married again that this will resolve itself. On the other hand, remember this is a woman who was married to one man, had children with my husband and hid it for 8 years and meanwhile had other boyfriends asking her out and seeking her (this I have proof of). Not very high moral standards if you ask me.

But aside from this our marriage is outwardly pretty good. Money is not an issue for me, but his lifestyle would be seriously curbed if he had to support himself. We have a lot of debts which if divided 50:50 would be a burden for him financially. He doesn’t want anyone to know about this. These are reasons to stay with me other than he loves me. On the other hand, he wants the twins to know he is their father and not keep secrets, but recognizes it would be bad for them, especially if he didn’t marry their mother.

Am I being stupid? If the affair is going to continue, I will not put up with it. BTW, he thinks since they aren’t having sex anymore, they aren’t having an affair and it is no threat to our marriage! He refuses to read any material about improving a relationship. I am working hard to improve my temper and our communication. He is not doing much to improve our relationship. I am just trying to be myself and a good person and a supportive spouse.

If I am going to be single again, I want to do it now and find my life partner before things start to sag around my middle anymore. (I’ll be 50 this year!) So, it is “push/pull”, work with him, divorce him? But I feel pretty selfish messing up my kids lives divorcing him and bringing all this to light just because he is continuing to love another woman but treats me pretty well. I wish I could believe him, but his past behavior speaks to swirling back and forth too. Even though I have been forbidden to do so, perhaps talking to her, not confrontationally, but just in the spirit of moving on will help?

Oh, btw we have tried counseling. He says he will do things while we are there which he doesn’t do later. He tells us what we want to hear but doesn’t intend to do.

So it is “push/pull”. Any suggestions?

You need to get a paternity test. Insist on it. And you also need to insist that your husband doesn't have any contact with the OW unless you are present.

Otherwise, your life is going to be a nightmare.

Welcome to MB. First please become familiar with Dr. H's concepts. Go to the top of the page and read about the basic concepts. Read the infidelity sections. Get the book "Surviving An Affair". You will see that Dr. H specifically calls for NC for life with the OP. You have lived the reason why, because the affair can re-ignite (or never really go away) while the wayward cake eats their heart out. Oh sweetie, much of what you posted IS my life. The OC creates a connection that makes it hard for the man to completely let go of the OW. The OW are pro's at using the OC as bait to continue the affair and it is perfect justification in the waywards mind as well. After all how can they "abandon" the OW and OC? Unfortunately it usually takes a period of true NC for the wayward to see the truth. Until there there will be a spark, a bit of guilt, a feeling of "responsibility" toward the woman who gave birth to their child. Most won't ask for DNA. After all they would have to admit the OW "cheated" on them to do that, right?

I hope you know the lifetime of pain and mistrust you are heading for.

Who is on the birth certificates? How do you feel about having the OC in your home? Why have you not exposed this affair to anyone? No wonder it was so easy for your H to lead two completely separate lives! Exposure helps kill the A. A's thrive in secrecy. It is time to tell your children the truth. Tell your families as well. Would you rather the children find out from a stranger or worse yet, the OW?

Strap yourself in for a vengeful OW who will do everything possible to "win" your H back from you. Do NOT trust him, MAKE him earn that trust. He must be accountable for all his time and be completely transparent to begin earning that trust back.

Thanks to both of you for commenting. Since I wrote this our 15 yo son lost his temper and told up to get our "s#*&" together because we were messing up his life with our arguing behind doors! It seemed like we had plenty of time to resolve this but now maybe H sees the stress all of us are under. Of course his first reaction was to blame me for loosing my temper. I pointed out until I found out, we didn't argue and I didn't lose my temper over things. I also don't lose my temper with the truth, just when I find he is lying to me again.

In my heart I know she is still fighting for him, just subtly now. She sent our daughter a birthday and Christmas present (but not our son...) I see no reason for that other than to show him how sweet and caring she is for his kids. Our daughter doesn't get presents from any of our other adult friends! He didn't give them to her becasue he knew I would be mad but can't understand why I would be mad about it!

I have read the book on affairs. My H doesn't want to believe it and won't even read the book. I guess that is telling me something.

My H name is not on the birth certs. .

hopefully you don't take this the wrong way. your h needs a good 2x4 upside his head. he is nothing more then a P-L-A-Y-E-R.

what happens from here on has nothing to do with what he wants. only what YOU want. YOU must decide if you want to live married to a man with 2 familiy's.

of course he keeps saying the nice things you want to here. if you leave his sorry a$$ he will be financially straped.

he has been a liar to you for 8 long years and hasn't felt bad about it for one second and now hr is giving you unltimatums. he is one ba!!sy guy.

1st and foremost start by telling him you INSIST on a dna test.

then tell him you will have NO part of him having any contact at all with ow. and if he doesn't like it tell him to pack his bags.

then sit your kids down and tell them the truth about why there is so much tension in your life. they deserve the truth

next out him by telling everyone you know about his torrid afair.


to date he has been stepping all over you because you have NO boundaries. YOU need to set them.

don't even tell me that he loves you. a true man doesn't treat the one he loves like that. what he is doing is manipulating you into giving in because he doesn't want the conflict that he deserves.

Oooooooh...GOOD post Pops!

For your daughter's sake - she is watching you and how you allow your husband to treat you.

You have NEVER been his first priority in this marriage. Ever. If you read "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders" you'll quickly see this.

First and foremost - read up on "exposure" on the general questions board. This affair and it's offspring results need to be exposed to the light of day. He gets the thrill of having fantasy life with both of you and no true reality with either of you.

Unfortunately you most likely will not be able to keep your marriage - sadly it never really was one for him.

But for your daughter, you must be a woman of strength. Your feelings and needs do not matter as a mother. Find that inner strength and get to work! Exposure. Plan B. Let him know what life is going to be like when this goes to "over".

You don't be friends with people who treat you like this. Biggest lesson for you to demonstrate to your daughter. Show her that women do not HAVE to beg for a man's attention. Or his priority. That NO man is better than 1/2 of one!

Wow, Talk about deja vue.....

I was married in 1993. I am a well-paid medical professional who can live independently. My FWH had an A that resulted in OC. I went into a PTSD on day three after dday and ended up losing 25 pounds in 6 weeks. My COM still do not know about the A nor the OC.

then the story changes.....

Day one: I told him he could save the M and his relationship with our COM or he could leave. The rules for saving the M (MB being unknown to me for another year and a half) were that there was to be absolutely NC with the OW. He could call her then and there once and tell her it was over, all further contact was to be through an attorney, that he was going to save his M and his family. (I am pretty sure he wasn't using the same turn of phrase as I did, after all she didn't want anything from him and didn't want to hurt his family....which is why she then sent emails to the house asking if he was going to stand up and put his name on the birth certificate or not/NOT, then she sued for paternity and CS).
Second, that there would be full transparency, if she called, showed up, wrote, and contact in any way I was to be informed immediately, not later that day, or next week. We exchanged phones, I got his...she didn't like it when I answered and she quit calling. Your WH owes you full transparency and security..he doesn't owe it to anyone else. He show you his emails, gives you all the passwords, shows you the call log on the phone and on the bill, he pays for logs on the bill so he can prove that he is not making calls from THAT phone, He keeps you informed constantly of where he is, if he is running late, and why and for how long. He does everything possible to relieve you of the the stress of thinking that he is with her.
3rd: he started counseling with the chaplain at my hospital on day 3. He met with him once a week for 6 months, trying to determine why he did this. Why he put the M, me, and COM at risk.

We are over 3.5 years from dday, we are full NC. The OC is her child, not ours. That may sound mean, but we chose the least harm to the most. OC was going to be harmed regardless of what we did, I was not going to minimize that a little to cause a lot of pain to our COM. The OW's twins believe their dad is OWH. They have no reason to need to establish a different relationship with your WH except that he is being selfish and wants it.

Survival of the M can happen. But you have to set your boundaries, if it isn't one hundred percent what you want and need, then set him free. Let him sink on his own. Take care of yourself and COM and move forward. If your state allows the M to be dissolved due to adultery then don't give him 50%. You have to fight for what you want and need. He is still full A foggy, no matter what he wants you to believe. Protect yourself and your COM. If the OW files for CS before you do, your COM will have to get in line behind hers.

Good luck
I will check back when I can, I don't spend a lot of time here anymore but check in every week or so.

Fled

I'm back. I was on vacation with my H. It was bittersweet. We had a good time but I found a text that "things with me were tense and he loved her." I found it and told him I was leaving him, tried to catch a cab to the airport to fly standby the next flight out. He wouldn't let me go. He promised he would break up with her and never see the twins again. That lasted until the harsh light of day.

I told him over and over, go to her. Leave me and see what it's like without me. He says, "I am right here with you". (I am soo tired of hearing that I could puke.) He says he is here but then he admits he isn't sure that he might be happier with her. He says I obsess on talking this over all the time but it is the same conversation. It never goes anywhere because I want 100% of a husband and he only can give me 50% or even 80%. I deserve better than that. He says he doesn't want to upset our kids. Of course they are upset and know there is something going on....

It gets down to this: He has to stop telling her he loves her and really break up with her. He says he is "making progress" and I should appreciate that. Well, I do but how can he not be sure yet if he is going to be happiest with me or her? He says she is no threat to me so just let it be! How can she be no threat to me if he isn't sure which of us he would be happeist with????

He keeps on telling me it is my behavior that upsets things. He says I need to stop loooking at his texts because it upsets me and then the family!!! Well if you are saying or doing things that you know hurt and upset me, then don't say it right???? Then there is no problem if I look at his texts! Oh, and of course he deletes all of them, I only see a fraction he misses...

He says I am his main priority. Then he says he isn't sure. He actually sent her a message asking her not to text him anymore becasue it upset me. She even said OK. But he didn't tell me because he wasn't sure he could do that and if he sent her another message, and I found out that he violated the promise, I would be mad, so it was easiest not to tell me. ??? That was something he should want to tell me because it is progress right?

So yes, I have an appointment with the lawyers. He doesn't want me to go. He says we can work things out. I don't see there is anyting I need to work out, he is the one who needs to do the working out.

So, 3 months after he said he wants to stay with me, he isn't sure. He says he won't allow me to limit access to the kids! She doesn't want CS. (yeah right) I think he doesn't want to break up with her because she will take access to the kids away from him. That is really her ace in the hole. He loves kids and especially his kids.

But no one understands me either, he is a loving father. He is a loving affectionate husband. Sex is now great and we are closer than we have ever been. He does tell me everywhere he goes (I think). But he can't cut the umbilical cord...

But I know I deserve a man who is 100% devoted to me. The sex can be good with others, the affection can be good with others too.

So, I wish he could pull his head out of his a$$. Eery once in a while I see it. Just enough to keep me stringing along...

I want off the roller coaster. Don't care whether it's on his side or not. Just want off....

There's that saying 'if you love someone let them go, if they love you they will come back' something along those lines but you catch my drift. He is playing with you and the OW....he is the one that has done wrong not you, he either follows your rules to save the marriage NOW or hes GONE. You must be strong...you do not deserve to be walked all over like this...what example is this for your family? It is ok to be treated like this? Make sure you keep that appointment with the solicitor. Your H sees the OW so she won't stop him seeing his kids, he then goes to the OW and says he stays with the wife so she doesn't stop him seeing his kids. He is a selfish man. Please put yourself first. You've had some good advice from previous posters but your H is not working with you, he's working for himself to get exactly what he wants when he wants it. He has not done one thing to try regain your trust, deleted messages? still contacting OW? still seeing her? this is even more disrespectful than the A itself because now you know and he's STILL doing it. Yes it is hard starting life again and seperating from some one you love but you deserve to be with someone who treats you so much better. This situation will bring you nothing but heart break. If i were you I would say NC with OW, DNA tests for OCs, legally established contact with OCs and change of phone number for your H with an itemed bill then if you catch him out again good riddance to bad rubbish. I hope you get the situation unnder control soon (((hugs))) x

The answer to your title question is: NO, it will never work as "friends".

Actions Speak Louder Than Words.

Repeat:

Actions speak louder than words.

His actions tell you loud and clear where you stand. His words are candy in the steaming pile of manure he's dumped on you.

Your description of him constantly blaming you and worrying about what OTHERS think (as if you are a reflection of HIS image) points to him being clinically narcassistic.

It's all unhealthy and the kids know it. They deserve more honesty. I hope you can afford yourself and the kids counseling.

You've gotten some good advice. Save your sanity while you still have some life left to enjoy (with or without him!!).

Jenny--recently divorced 10 years after OC was born. I listened to his 'words' for tooooo long. He was always a player/cake-eater.

Step one:

Full, absolute NC between Wh and OW. No texts, no calls, no emails, no nothing. Full transparency. He created this mess, now he has to decide if he wants to save the family he vowed to protect and take care of, or if the other one, that isn't really his is more important. He can't have both.

Step two:

If he fulfills step one, DNA tests and file for visitation legally. He does not need to have C with OW or even see her to have visitation if they are his kids and he takes the legal route. This being said. If you do not file for CS before she does her OC will get more money from him than you and your COM will. There fore, check with your attorney about a separation and file for CS for your COM.

He has to decide. You, Your M, Your Family, Your COM, or betray all of you to keep the OC. You didn't make the mistakes, he did and these are some of the consequences of them. If the kids hurt because you hurt because you read a message he shouldn't have sent, then HE did it. It is not for you to be lied to to prevent hurt to you, it is for him to do the right thing and have no reason for you to be hurt, or to wonder if he is lying to you.

Fled

quote********I want off the roller coaster*******

then step off.

muster up your inner strength and push him away so you can pull yourself to shore.

he is drowning you.

it was said earlier that if you love something set it free, yada, yada, yada. this is as sure as the sun comes up.

this man doesn't love you, he loves himself. period.

let me try and give you an insight to his mindset. you say the sex is better then it has been fir some time.

prior to marriage i was the type of guy that if a woman had two legs (and they didn't both have to work) i was chasing her like nobody's business. and yes i had gf's at the same time.

the sex was always good as it was exciting going from one to the other.

that's just how us dog's (men) are.

trust me the sex will be great for you also if when you meet the man who will treat you like you deserve.

stop feeding allowing him to blame you for his dimwitted actions. hsi choice to bed ow had nothing to do with you wanting to set boundaries. it has only to do with him taking responsibility for of his own actions.

you have recieved some great advice. listen closely to what the ladies have told you about filing for separation and cs.

i have seen this first hand. my w's om pays cs for our oc. he later D'd his w and her cs was much less. reason 1 was she made more $ then my w and reason 2 was he was already committed legally to pay so much of his income.

your h seems to be quite the saleman (read BU!!S#!T artist). he knows what to say to manipulate you into his way of thinking.

so here's my suggestion. go out and secure a place for you and your kids. say NOTHING to your h about this. then when he leaves the house pack your bags and leave. leave no address. he will have your cell # if he needs it.

have your attorney contact him and state your intentions and your boundaries.

i know it isn't the right thing but i sure would like to see the look on his face should you tell him YOU have another lover and can't make up your mind who you want to live with.

i had a guy working for me that was cheating on his w all th etime. he told me that he was going out 1 friday night. i aksed what time he was leaving because i wanted to go over and knock it out with his w. i told him exactly what i wanted to do with her and that i would treat her very nice.

he got pissed and started blabbing something about respect. i told him if it was good for him it was good for her and good for me also.

he stopped cheating

anyhow pull, you are a strong woman and you need to stand up for yourself and your kids.

and for the record your h is not a good father. he's a dips#!t. agood father shows with his actions how to love and RESPECT his w.

Do you want your son to grow up and do this to HIS wife? He will, unless you kick your husband out - NOW. Children do exactly what their parents do unless that activity is called out for what it is (by kicking him out).

Do you want your daughter to believe she has to put up with a man who runs two different lives the whole time she is married to that man? She WILL unless you kick your husband out.

Kicking him out, after an affair that has lasted this long, is the ONLY way he will ever choose you guys over his double life. The ONLY way is if he no longer has access to your life. The ONLY way.

All this other mumbo jumbo you're speaking is just that - ineffective wishing and wanting that do NOTHING to make your H think that he has to take action and end the affair.

Quit making excuses. Call his parents and your parents and this other woman's family. This week. Tell them all what they have been doing. Ask for their support in getting your husband back.

You HAVE to expose the affair, or it will never end.

But KICK HIM OUT! NOW!

He can always come back, but he'll never stop the affair unless you do this.

A decent marriage WILL NOT exist if your husband remains friends with the posow.

Thanks everyone for your support.

Well, I made the appointment with the attorney. He asked me not to go, said we would work it out and didn't want to spend the money!!!

I kept the appointment last Tuesday. I wrote him a letter telling him to establish "no contact" except communication about kids. All phone calls were to take place with me present except brief calls to arrange logistics on child visitation days. No texting, no other phone calls and to let me know when he calls her. All communication by email needs to be saved for me and only communication about the kids is allowed. I gave him until Saturday to do it.

Funnny thing, he was seeing a counselor who told him that he needed to have no contact with the OW for the marriage to survive too. He just stopped seeing the counselor.

He didn't do it then(he said he thought we were just going to talk about it Saturday!) I looked back in my journal and I have been telling him this since October! I told him that I did talk to the attorney and I was ready to file divorce if he didn't fix this. I had a division of property and child custody plan all written out for him. He put his head down on the table and said ok I'll do it. I told him he needed to do it because he wanted to do it to save the marriage, not just because I said he had to do it. 48 hours later, last night he did write her a letter after I told him it had been long enough. I told him he was putting it off and he is afraid of hurting her feelings but he is just hurting mine.

I haven't seen the letter and I don't know what he said. he has been so wishy washy all along, I am skeptical. Tonight he is taking our daughter to a concert out of town so I don't have a chance to really talk about it. Last night he wasn't talking and we worked today.

I am glad he is trying. I feel like he is holding back though. The last message I saw which he sent her was definatly telling his honey how tense it was for us and that he loved her and missed her. He is stringing her on for sure. I can't imagine why she would put up with this crap either. But she is married to one man (who has moved back in with her) and has a boyfriend so who knows what she really is all about.

I think he finally knows I am serious about this. I am not going to put up with this anymore. I've lost 30 pounds, I can't concentrate at work, this is crazy. I think our kids will be fine either way. I'm sure they would rather not have the stress at home.

So, I know I need to find out what was in the letter. I know he needs to show me that he can be there for me. He doesn't get it that he needs to reach out to me. As I read this I know I am giving him way too much slack. I will keep you posted. But I at least have my eyes open and I'm not afraid to divorce him.

good for you. setting your boundaries is a great thing. you still are a bit soft on him tho but you are getting there.

please read """"""""""He put his head down on the table and said ok I'll do it."""""""""" is his way of saying he isn't thinking of you a bit.

be very careful with his actions and words. he is a masterful manipulator and a true weeny.

since october? you are a strong woman. 30 lbs is a lot of weight to lose for a person that was in good shape prior to all this. make sure you take care of your health.

i lost 45 lbs when my w went awol. but i far from being in decent shape at the time.

He finally wrote her a letter of no contact Tuesday. I thought he sent it. I told him he needed to send me a copy of it but he didn't. I found it on his computer anyway (it's half mine-community property state-right?) I was wishy washy and said they would remain friends! I told him that was no good.

Well, he hadn't sent it anyway.

Thursday I found a phone she had given him to call and text her with complete with pictures of her boobs and address of an apartment they were looking at and seductive messages. We had an honest conversation. I told him he needed to stop talking to her, period. I gave him until Friday night to send he the letter of no contact. Well he hasn't but he gave back her phone.

I made him sleep in the guest house and I took the kids out without him to show him what being divorced would be like.

I think he needs to formally write her and state no contact, more to convince himself than anything.

But he asked me not to go to the attorney.

I think I am going to write her. He won't leave, I've asked him to leave, I've tried to throw him out. I've tried to drive him out by being mean and nasty (sometimes on purpose.) He won't go. I can't imagine how she must feel thinking everytime he breaks up with her a few days later he comes back to her. She is sweet and flirty and thinks he will go to her but doesn't. If he doesn't have the balls to leave maybe she will see the light. (I doubt it, but it's a thought.)

I read a lot of places that trying to keep the marriage together is best. But he is such a manipulative liar. But I think he does want to stay married. He knows he needs to stop being with her to do that. He is just addicted to her ego stroking. I surely won't send him 20 seductive text messages a day. No one else will and I guarantee once she is married to him, she won't either!

i have a deep feeling that your will never stop his relationship with ow. he is in way to deep with her. kicking him into th eguest house is good but just the start.

don't listen to his miserable reasons about you not seeing an attorney. do it and do it NOW. he is just trying to talk you out of it so he can stall and try to figure some other way to squirm out of this mess he has created.

and one night out with the kids won't teach this nitwit a thing. he has obviously spent many nights away from them and it hasn't phased him yet.

go to the attorney , seek a legal separation, have him removed from the house, have it ordered that he provide you with spousal support and have yourself named as the sole legal and custodial parent to YOUR kids.

then let him decide what he wants. it will force him to take real action and not just give you his lip service.

You were right. Yesterday after giving him deadlines (a week ago, Friday night at 10, yesterday at 6 pm)still no letter to her of no contact. We exchanged a bunch of texts but the final straw was when he said he refused to be held to some restictive ultimatum regarding not being able to see his kids with OW. I said well, you had 3 months to show me that keeping your relationship to just "the kids" failed miserably, you were looking for a new apartment becasuse you hadn't "been with" her so long and she bought you a phone so you could hide the seductive messages she was sending you.

I told him to have a nice life. Then he said "I'll send the email tonight." Not good enough. When he came home I threw him out. I though my son was going to push him out the door.

Then this morning he said I destroyed his relationship with his son because I had anger issues! I told him it was his choice to continue his affair and he had 6 months to fix it and he still was trying to decide! Yesterday he was writing up a list of pros and cons and was "pretty sure" he was going to stay with me...

His parents said he will get no sympathy from them. His brother called me and said he was supportive of me and that if my H had any balls he would have left when I asked not when I had to throw him out. Oh, and if I needed it he would come out here and throw his brother out for me. (We are 2000 miles apart.)

Oh, and now he say he wants to stay married and spend the rest of his life making me happy, he wants to stay married to me... I told him he should have said that yesterday. He agreed to that at least. Everyone thinks I should have thrown him out months ago.

I still waiver. But I just can't trust him.

sorry but your h is one phucked up dude

"you distroyed his relationship with his son"..............
he is blaming you for his inappropriate actions and giving his son NO credit for having character or morals. i say BRAVO for your son. he is more of a man then his father will ever be.

"he had to make a list of pros and cons"????????...........
WTH is that. after all this time he doesn't KNOW where he wants to be. it obviously isn'y with you and your boys. what a dips#!t

"pretty sure".......... tell the jerk thanks but no thanks. you need a man who KNOWS what and where he wants to be. not a school boy

i am sorry that you ended up with such a nitwit. you have given him more chances then his dumb a$$ deserves.

slap him with court papers and see ho whe blames you for that.

one of the problems is that his ow doesn't want him full time either. that's why he keps trying to hang on to you

Don't waiver.

You are right not to trust him. He has EARNED your MISTRUST.

THANK YOU, EVERYONE WAS RIGHT!

I dealt with his ambivalence a few more days and he never sent the email of NC.

Finally I wrote to her. I told her she couldn't buy my daughter's affection with little presents because she would never love her because she was taking her daddy away. She caused our son to tell his dad to get the f**k out of the house. Her "unconditional love for him" (a phrase she used a lot with him) had gotten him rejected by his family and friends. And don't blame me because I didn't have the A, I just was finally honest about it. And don't say it's about her kids because I gave them a chance to have a relationship "just about the kids" and it failed miserably, culminating in a secret phone to share pictures of her body parts and provocative text messages none of which were about the kids...

After I sent it, my H called me. He said she accused me of calling her vulgar names and threatening her in the email (which I didn't do of course) and she said she was going to talk to my state licensing board for unprofessional conduct!! Fortunately I sent a blind copy to my work computer showing I never said anything like that. When H heard that and looked at the letter, I guess that was the final straw. Perhaps he saw her for what she was.

I truly don't believe he would have done this unless I held his feet to a very large fire. I am sorry everyone had to know, but even then, he couldn't break up with her. It took her threatening me unjustly for him to send the email of NC.

H has asked to stay with me. He promises never to talk to her again and she sent me an email at his request stating she will never contact him again about anything.

I have a deep feeling of emptiness and ambivalence. It took such great lengths and extreme measures to get him to do this. Clearly it is all about him right now. He says he loves me and is totally committed to me and will be a "different H." It is really hard to reach into the depths of my soul and find love for him there. But finally, I saw him cry on my shoulder, not hers.

It is bittersweet and it is no victory but at least it is resolution-I hope.

I WISH I WOULD HAVE DONE THIS MONTHS AGO! It would have been so much easier to rebuild our relationship if I hadn't had to suffer so long. I truly believe he would not have done this unless I took action. The attorney wasn't enough, throwing him out wasn't enough.

YOU WERE ALL ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
It's been 9 days. He is more loving, more transparent. I won't know until the cell phone bill comes whether he is being honest.

Sorry I've been gone so long, I've had trouble logging in.

DO NOT TRUST HIM!!!!!!!

If he is going to come out of this fog, and try to heal his M with you then HE has a lot of work to do. You are here at this site. Are you reading the books recommended here? Will he? Can you guys do a MB's weekend? He will fail, he has had too much practice at it. What are your boundaries? Does he know them? Do not waiver on them? If you really want to heal this M, now is when you have to be tough. You have to insist on being treated right. He must be 100% transparent, reveal everything to you, all passwords, all phone lists, complete access to his cell phone without anything deleted, so you can double check it, he can sit down with you and show you when detailed calling comes in that it matches everything on his phone without anything missing. This is his job to help you so that you can rebuild trust. He has no C with OW, you establish jointly if, how, any visitation with the OC will take place. You both need to be in IC and MC, and your kids may need the opportunity also. If he wants to heal his relationship with your wonderful son, then he needs to take the steps to prove to your son that he can treat you right and repair the damage he caused.

Don't worry about her threatening you professionally. My licensing board won't give two figs about OW bullspeak. Only if I violate my professional conduct, and telling a Ho interloping in my M to jump in the creek and stay away from my family won't do it.

Stay strong and keep reading. I hope I have fixed my log in problems and will check in on you later. Oh...If he is going to pursue any kind of ongoing C with OC, then they all need to have DNA tests done. And you need to protect your COM financially from OW when she files for CS from your H. If there is not an order for CS in place for your COM first then they will calculate all his income to them first. If you have a CS order in place for your COM then she can only get CS for her OC after your CS is deducted from his income. Protect your COM, let her worry about providing for hers.

Fled

Thanks Fled,
We were out of town so I'm back now. His phone bill came and there are no calls to and from her numbers, assuming I know all of them. I have his passwords, assuming I have all his email addresses. I am checking and will continue to do so. He is still somewhat defensive at times when I look.

He is being loving and affectionate. He definately has learned to see when I am uncomfortable or down and calls me right away. Whether it is genuine concern for me or fear that I have found something or have changed my mind, I don't know but I guess it is good either way that he notices my feelings now.

He is in IC and so am I. I gave him the names of some MC and told him to set something up with one of them. I think he needs to show some initiative.

I did see an empty draft to her on his phone and a text to her number that he says were mistakes. I made it clear to him that if he ever contacts her again it's over, no more second, third... chances. So I am going with him on this. I am reading the MB and other books and talking to people. He is at least reading a little.

As far as the OC, there is no DNA and his name is not on the BC her H's name is. She has let her H back in the house. Without DNA or his name on the BC, she can try to come after my H for CS but it would be hard. Then she would have to tell her kids and give up partial custody of them to get CS. In my state, if you don't have some benefit of contact with the kids, you don't pay CS. They have kept this a secret from her kids so far. I think if they were going to tell them, she would have already done it as a way to pull at his heartstrings harder when things were very tense a couple months ago. I don't think she wants to give up any custody of them.

They could take this deeper underground. But I think she wanted to marry him and was trying to string him along until I threw him out then she could have him. She benefited all along from being the "kind supportive" one (the only one who understands me) while I was the neurotic wife. When I threw him out and told his family and friends and he still didn't leave me for her, perhaps she got it... Besides, she is living with her husband again but has a new boyfriend! I think he saw who she really was with the meaningless threats to me.

I also know that I have been seriously lied to over and over when things seemed to be over before. So I am wary-I think! Thanks to all and to Fled for your advice and strenght! I will keep you posted.

How are you doing? How are things going? Have you made it to MC yet or still working on IC stuff first? Is he maintaining 100% NC? He doesn't have to like your "snooping" as he may refer to it, but trust me, your snooping doesn't come anywhere close to his violation of your trust, your M, your vows, his responsibility to you, or his COM. He will get over it, or you don't need someone like him. This is one of the requirements for rebuilding trust. He didn't break by just a single act in a single moment and he can't regain it that way either.

Fled

Yesterday was the one month anniversary of NC. So far so good, at least I haven't caught anything. He says it's over. We started MC and he is going to IC weekly.

He actually said in MC that it was 90% "chemistry" (read lust) and 10% discontent with our marriage that made him do it. That was one of the best things I've heard. At least he is getting some insight! Before he was re-writing history so it was all the marriage's fault!

I asked him if he had gone a month without talking to her before and he hadn't! I hope it's true.

You were so right. I should have told everyone a couple months ago. Immediately after I found out would have been too soon because I didn't know what I wanted and he sure had no idea what he wanted.

Now he sees how she was messing with his head. Not to make excuses but she was very manipulative. Until he saw her accusing me of threatening her (and I could prove I hadn't) he couldn't see her except "on a pedestal" (his words!) Through IC he saw that his world with her was a fantasy and if he left me for her and married her, the lustful text messages and pictures from her would stop and they would talk about who will cook dinner and pick up the kids just like every married couple. The "chemistry" would be gone... And I made it clear it was get rid of her or divorce from me. And I really did mean it and our family, his kids and his parents and all of our friends thought he was crazy at best...

Pray for me in whatever way. Thanks so much to all. I'll keep you posted. He said some interesting things in MC (should be able to put marriage back together in a couple months!?!?) But it's progress!

OH, and the kids... First, I don't believe they are his. One of the twins looks exactly like her son who is the child of her husband. You can have twins with different fathers. The other might possibly have some resemblance to my H but it's a stretch.. I think that she is reluctant to do DNA because she knows too...

No contact with them either. They were completely unable to keep their relationship about "the kids" only... The kids were always an excuse for their lust. But hopefully we will never know for sure...

Don't give up on the IC to early. My H spent every week going for over six months, it helped him tremendously, which in turn helps every one else in the family. He had to fix himself so we could begin to repair the M.
Good luck, keep reading, stay focused.

blessings

fled

Have you exposed to people your husband trusts? HIs family? His friends? ie: people who can help keep him on track?

You can not allow your hurt to be concealed .sp? by a lie.
You need the support of people who will encourage you WH to keep his nose clean

Hi - I have been reading your thread and was wondering if you ever had an in-depth conversation with the OW's H. That was a game-changer for me! My H. was so spooked because I knew so much more. My H. had lied about him all along.

Thanks!
It has been 6 weeks now and I think there has been NC. We have been to MC and each of us to IC. Very instructive. Just learned that we got this arguing pattern. He would do something that reminded me of his lies. Spending a long time at the computer after bedtime, texting all the time, escaping to "drive around" to call her... I would get mad because it triggered a bad memory. He would get mad at me because I was "upsetting the kids" with my anger and turning it around to my behavior being the problem. I got him to at least see it was his affair that hurt our kids, not my angry reaction to it, no matter how loud my anger was... I always saw that but he never did. It was always easier for him for our difficulties to be about "my anger" rather than "his behavior, the affair".

Anyway, I did not talk to her husbsnd. I wish now I had. She had told my H that she lived with her husband for 8 years and never once had sex with him!! and my H believed it!! The guy knew he wasn't the father of the kids but put his name on the BC and treated tham as his own. Now, he isn't the touchy-feely, involved dad that my H would be, but was doing the best he could. He even tolerated my H going to the twins birthday party with all his family there knowing my H was allegedly their father and allowed it and was even decent to him! So to me, the guy isn't the useless jerk the OW wanted my H to believe. He is nicer than I would be for sure!

I would have contacted her sooner too. Until she took what I wrote and turned it around to make it look like I threatened her and she was an innocent victim of my anger (a behavior she had done before but my H didn't believe before) my WH would not have seen her for the manipulative liar she was.

So, I hope people gain strength to take matters into their own hands when the time is right. I would not have done this the first 3 months of discovery. But I wish I would have done it a month or two sooner. I truly don't believe he would have seen the light if I had not done this. (Thrown him out and wrote a letter to the OW that she turned around to wuit herself.)

I also wish I would have talked to the husband, but I don't think I could have contacted him easily. It's too late now. If he contacts her again-it's over. If he doesn't-it doesn't matter.

BUT, now he misses his "kids" and wants to be in touch with them.. A new post to follow....

Hi there Push,

I lived a little of this. My XH didn't have children with the OW but he sat on the fence for 2 1/2 years. I went through hell every day of those 2 1/2 years. I pray that you don't have to live like that, but I don't see him jumping off the fence anytime soon. You are going to have to insist on NC. When he's refusing to leave and telling you all the things you long to hear, insist on his actions to back up his words. Tell him that you deserve to have all of a marriage not the piddly remnants he's been giving you. It's going to be hard as hell but you can do it. You're marriage depends on it. Even if you can't keep the marriage, you can at least have some peace.

Believe me, I didn't think I could live without my husband. I still HATE what the divorce did to me and the kids, but I was able to finally sleep. I could relax in my own home and I didn't have to worry about what he was doing ever again. When you need the courage to make the hard demands, remember my words and know that life will move on and happiness is out there waiting for you to find it.

Good luck to you.

Loni

It's 2 months of NC. I actually made it halfway through the day before I realized it was the 2 month anniversary of NC.

HOw do I know it's NC???

He has 2 kids (twins) with the OW. He has had NC with them because he was completely addicted to her sexually and absolutely could not establish a relationship with her that wasn't continual sexual flirting.

I feel for him not seeing the kids but they don't know he is their father. Our children do not know they have half sisters (there is no DNA however so no one knows for sure.) I don't see any benefit to continuing the relationship with them.

He used to pick them up from after school and play with them at the park for an hour or two a couple times a week. They thought he was "mommy's friend from work". If he never sees them again he will be a pleasant memory for them, no more. If we well them they will always resent him for disrupting their lives and also not marrying their mother. Not to mention the affect on our kids (who know about the A but not the kids.)

It is unique I think because the OW doesn't want child support. I think there are a couple of reasons. Perhaps she doesn't want the DNA test... Perhaps she doesn't want to give up her control. In our state if we payed CS we would have legal rights to them part time. Perhaps she doesn't want everyone to know. She is still married to her H who is listed as their father.

Do you think this will last? I think it's best for all to leave well enough alone. Fewer people are hurt.

Ah, well unless your state is different she probably is past the time her H can dispute paternity. NC is far less confusing for the OC in your case. They HAVE a daddy already. OW was just using the OC to continue the A with your H.

How is the M going now that there is NC?

The marrige is going better with NC for sure. I don't see anyone benefit from him contacting the kids. Hey have a daddy. She can't be trusted.

But it is eating him up. He says his counselor thinks it's ok to thave 2 daddies. I think that's BS.

I know he loves playing with the kids as he is a big kid himself.

The way I see it, he is the only one who benefits from telling everyone. He gets to play with the kids. They are happy the way they are. She is a good mother, they have a father. Why cause more hurt. She doesn't want CS.

Am I being selfish here?

No, I don't think you are being selfish...I think your WH is. So what if he enjoys playing with the kids, there isn't even DNA evidence they ARE his kids. Plus sneaking behind your back and MOWH's back is WRONG and a continuation of the betrayal on both sides!

The counselor always thinks it's ok to have two daddies. It's how they deal with divorced parents and step parents. It doesn't have anything to do with this mess. This mess was created by adultery on both parents parts. In most states after two years have passed and paternity isn't challenged the H remains the one responsible for the CS. The only way for her to get your H to pay CS is to prove that H isn't and divorce. Let them work on their own M. Remain NC. Your H needs to understand that those children do not think they have 2 daddies, their parents are still M'ed and him coming in to be a daddy now as an interloper would not be in their best interest. (I don't care what the counselor thinks, mine thought I should be happy to have an OC in my life and welcome it home with my COM.... I don't think so!!!)

You are not being selfish, he needs to just walk away, He can have a parenting relationship if they seek him out when they are twenty. As long as they don't bring their mother along!

Fled

Thanks, you know I really did give them 6 months to figure out how to have a relationship "just about the kids" and they demonstrated they couldn't. Now to think they could is just more than I can get my head around. All I can think of are the seductive, lewd text messages the week before the end... None were about the kids... It's not my fault, they had a chance.

I asked him once if he was a little angry with her because she couldn't keep control of herself and develop a relationship just about the kids. He said no, it was both of them, not just her. I guess that's honest. But if he can't see that she was seducing him all the time and using the kids as bait, there is no way she can be trusted. And left to himself, he chose what felt good rather than what was right.

He said once he was a friendly caring guy and couldn't talk to her just about the kids because of who he was. I guess I'll remind him he said that.

I just don't see how contacting her and her kids would benefit my kids, especially my 15 year old son...

So to look back at the beginning of this whole string, the answer is no, they can't remain "friends". But boy is this hard...

Oh I know that one quite well. It took my H a loooong time to figure out that as long as he had sex with xOW she thought they were in an R. Once he finally stopped that part, it was harder for her to justify in her mind what she meant to him (though believe me she tried). It still took 2 years after the sex stopped for her to "get it". Now we have C with the OC as a family. Before that, it was easier for him to not make waves. Sigh... would have been easier for ME if he had.

[quote]He said once he was a friendly caring guy [\quote]

Then he needs to prove it. And if it's true, then he will do everything 100% to fix his M to you and be responsible to his COM,, the OW and her COM with her H do not figure in to making it possible for him to be the "Good guy" if he is hurting you.

Fled

Well, it should be no suprise that I found a text message to her. It wasn't "how are the kids", it was... "Love you!" At first he denied it. Then I said I was sitting here looking at the phone. Then he said it was an accident. Like you could enter 7 numbers and hit send (twice at least) by accident.

I threw him out. He came home and his stuff was in the driveway. He begged, he cried for two hours. "Please take me back, I screwed up, I fell off the wagon, I din't tell you becasue I was scared."

Well, I let him come back.

I guess it feels different this time. Each time seems a little closer. But still, we were in MC two hours before I found the message and he sat there, knowing he had sent the message saying it was about seeing the kids, not her. Well, the message was about her.. So he lied to me and the MC.

He still wants to see the kids. Still wants to justify it because he believes it won't hurt them. Remember, they believe the OW husband is their father. He has raised them as his for 7 years and never made a fuss, treated them like his own. (Maybe they are.) Remember, there is no DNA and she refuses testing.

I don't see how breaking up the family is going to help them or be good for the kids. He thinks he can just play with them a couple hours a week and then they can go back to the OW H and be a happy family... Doubt it. I think it will only hurt them.

So he was in IC. Seems he spent most of the time trying to justify he wouldn't upset the kids life. He should have been dealing with his sexual addiction and pathologic lying.

BTW, is seems she didn't reply to him. Maybe the door is closed there? I hope so, I guess. I still hate him and wish he would get the he@@ out of my life. But a part of me loves him and he is trying.

My advice to anyone following this thread is that there is no way affair partners can have a relationship that is different from the A. Anyone who is trying to do that; it won't work. They are addicted and they only know the fun exciting part of a relationship, not the routine daily life part. There is no way they can change that becasue there is no reason to change something that feels so good. This is all about what feels good and what their ego needs. These A partners need their egos massaged constantly.

so, one day at a time....

My advice? YOU contact OWH and ask him to take an RO out against your H.

I DO hope you exposed this latest bit of contact to OWH.

Time to choose!!!!

boundaries and consequences.......

full transparency, absolute NC, Get real with counseling, this is about him and his problems, not about some other married man's children....pulleeeze

Every time he lies, every time he does something else and you let him get away with it, he is encouraged to continue, go back and reread Harley's principles of NC, and transparency, boundaries and consequences.

Been there and understand, but you are able and must be tough to bring change to your M.

Fled

ps let the OWH know about the C!

The OW H does know the kids may not be his. THe OW says she hasn't had sex with her H for 8 years. If you believe that.. (I don't)

The friends thing will never work between them. The texts keep occurring... They are all continuing affair type communications.

Last night I made him text her to stop communicating with him. It said he wanted her to focus on her marriage and make a good home for her kids an let him do the same with me.

It is like a spiral. Around and around....

Each time he begs forgivness and pleads to stay. Each time it gets better but still. I just want to be able to let my guard down and just relax and be a normal person... I guess that's not in the cards for me...

pushpull

time for you to expose OWH. Does the OW and WH work together?

No, she is an assistant to an attorney (divorce atty no less) and he is a general contractor who is completely in charge of his own schedule.

He says he want to stay with me. He is trying.. But the texts he sends her lately are not complying with the NC....

But he says he is sorry, she is an addiction (true enough) and he fell off the wagon...

I feel sorry for him.. He has islolated himself for his friends over this. e can't talk to anyone about this or anyting becasue he is too ashamed. So she is the only one he can talk to. A self fulfilling prophecy.

We had a long talk last night. He needs to look inside himself and figure out what it is he needs and wants. So far I think he has chosen the path that feels good (her)or the path that is consistant with his real life, me, depending on what pops up on any given moment. He needs to decide what he wants and make it happen not just bounce from even to event.

He says it's me and our family. He needs to show that I think.

Just a note. I have another post going that is more up to date. (OW children...they are 7)

He continued to talke to her, text her, see her and her kids and lie about it. When he would get caught it would be the same story, "I fell off the wagon, I'm right here with you..."

I wanted to believe but there was no point. FInally after a year of this I said no more and divorced him. He said "I lost everything". Actually, no, he pissed it away. My kids are angry with him. They will never get over it although they are dealing with it in their own ways. Certainly not what a 16 year old boy needed. I told them what was going on shortly after this last post. At least they knew the truth about why all the arguing. For a while they thought I was going crazy. Now they know what the truth is. The ex wanted to blame me for the turmoil in the house... if I just din't get mad at him when he got caught everything would be ok! I just wasn't going to be part or that blame game!

So, I guess I have learned that you guys were all right. THe lying wouldn't stop. He even now lies about inconsequential things because he doesn't know how not to. He wanted me to support him and put up with her and let him continue hir relationship. He used her kids as an excuse to see her. The text messages were always "I love you", not the kids, not we love you back to him but I love you...

Now he sees she is a drama queen, lying and manipulative, just like he was. I guess he is getting what he deserves.

I am going to continue to learn how to have a successful relationship. I did learn a lot about how to be in a respectful relationship from MB and the principle of mutual happiness concept is the best.

I will keep an eye on here. Maybe someday I will feel healed enough and wise enough to help others.

Pushpull- Your scenario scares me the most. The only thing that I think has helped is that my H did not have a relationship with OW and he was not notified of OC until after the fact. We actually moved on and he was doing well. I started to TRUST him again. 2.7.2010 was the day he went back to being a liar according to him because he was trying to protect me. Well, eventually he decided he could not HOLD it in any longer.

Best wishes to you and your children!

Just wanted you to know your not alone, after 8 years my opinion is NO they can't be friends even or should I say especially after the oc, if the are then no real normal marriage can exist . It's clouded with the neverending bs on the offence and ws on the deffence... Really hard, I can say as much as I love my husband, as much as I wanted everything to be ok, patient empathetic etc , it really wasn't ok...breaking any promises and putting us through any more pain after all we willingly acsepted is beyond horable. I know that my willingness to forgive out of love allowed him to remain a selfish child. Since the seperation I can breath,finally...

Not a hopefull post but an honest one, if I listed my whole story you would cringe, trust me your behavior patern is unhealthy, you can't change him but you can change you

Thanks to all. Just an update. I have moved on. D Day for me was now 2 years ago this week.

He is just moving in with the OW. She finally divorced her H but he still lives there part time(now that is a creepy situation if there ever was one!) The ex texts me every week crying about how she is unreasonable, manipulative, jealous... and that hs misses me wants me back... I am sure when he was married to me he would cry to her about how I was unreasonable becasue I wouldn't live with him cheating on me.... Or some other complaint..

It is really sad. His kids see him for a liar. It is really heartbreaking for my daughter, who tries to be good to both of us, to say "mom, I wish dad would just stop lying to you.."

All I can say is that I tried my best to make it work. I just couldn't live with half a husband. My only regret is that I let it go on too long. My house was turmoil for a year because I kept giving him more and more second chances. Silly me, I wanted to believe that for once he was telling me the truth; but he never did. He still doesn't even though now it doesn't matter in the least to me what he does and he really doesn't need to lie anymore.

I did learn some bad habits. I did let my temper get short (I used to have a long fuse. Not so much anymore but I am trying to get it back) I am trying to be tolerant but not put up with stuff. I am learning to love and be loved again, but slowly. But I will never be the trusting soul I was.

I have to slowly put things back together. My son nearly flunked out of high school and got seriously into drugs but I think he is pulling together and moving on with me. I am trying to take comfort and pride in trying hard and not compromising my honesty.

But to be very blunt, I think there are some people in the world who will lie without remorse. Some (but maybe not all) spouses who cheat will really come to believe that they deserved to cheat becasue you weren't good enough, sexy enough or whatever and blame you for their cheating. They will convince themselves they deserved to have the OW on the side. Either you weren't enough or they have such an enormous void in their own sense of self they have to have someone else tell them how wonderful they are all the time. They forget how to be happy with themselves. THey can't appreciate what they have. I guess it's like "no matter where go there you are". You can't run away from yourself. And if you rely on someone else to make you feel content, you will never feel content with yourself.

Not that I am perfect. But I am trying to grow from this...

Best to all.

Pushpull,

thank you for the update. I am sorry your WH didn't have the testosterone to turn into a real man for you and your COM. You sound good, even for what you have been through. Stay focused on being the best that you can be and you will be there, and your COM will follow you. Your WH doesn't have any comprehension of what he has done to anyone and probably never will.

You can recover a better you, not the angry person you became (understandably so, stress does it, and trust me, it does get better...BTDT)

Good Luck!!

Fled

Just to ask the MB out there if having my WH access to this article of pushpull be appropriate?
I am currently on the saa forum and he had a single appt with JH. But since i saw this thread and is so familiar with my setup I was wondering if it would be of any help to him and maybe help him realize what is really wrong here?
thank you for any response and help

A long time since I wrote. Hopefully this will help someone else.

I divorced the WH. He is living with the OW and their twins (who don't know the truth but everyone else does--)

He continued to manipulate me through the divorce and I enced up losing my house and with a huge debt from his business and general lies about finances, etc. (Yes I was stupid to take his word for things, but I was not as strong then)

My son got depressed and got into heroin. We sent him to a long term treatment boarding school in Utah which turned out to be a blessing for the family. I found wisdom and strenght from their family support programs.

My daughter went through a period of "cutting" while she lived part time with him. Now she is a bright and promising high school freshman and lives full time with me.

My son is finishing his program in December and is becoming a better man because of his experience. He will be coming home to my house where there will be boundaries and rules. He sees the living with his dad, who is still a "people pleaser to feel good about himself" will not work for him.

Not to say I am the best and wisest. But I have learned a few things...

First and formost: Take care of yourself first. All else will follow. Take one day at a time. Stay true to yourself and SET BOUNDARIES based on YOUR VALUES. It is your house, you set the values.

Yes he still tries to manipulate me. I have learned a few things to say to him that work; "bummer for you", "sorry to hear that", and most importantly, "no".

Yes I have moved on in all ways. I am happier and calmer. The anxiety attacks have lessened. I am learning to love again (after a couple years.) I have navigated a stormy course and YOU CAN TOO! The words of the folks here are right on. Look at the posts on this thread and you will see truth. They say it better than I can. The only thing I wish I would have been stronger with was standing up for myself in the divorce becasue I got screwed. I didn't want to fight and I was afraid of paying alimony. I probably would have paid a lot less if I would have paid a lawyer up from, but I let him manipulate me. I just didn't want it to drag out. But it's over and I will work my way out of it.

I can't control him or my kids, (truly.) I can take care of myself. All else will follow.

Caryl, A
Courageous,
Cheerful,
Capable woman.

Now I am 52
My kids are 18 and 15

Wonderful update on your personal recovery, pushpull. Sorry about the finances but thankfully you have your pride and your children. Money can be replaced. *hugs*

Pushpull,

I am so glad you stopped by. I am very sorry to hear about your kids, but it sounds like things are on the right path now. You are Capable, and smart. Do not beat yourself up for trying to deal with this horror that invaded your life. None of us know what we will do until we are there and every situation is different. I would go back and do things differently as well, and we are recovered and doing well.

Blessings,
Fled