to sensative? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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i just wanted to know if this seems like i am being to sensative.

this weekend om had grace for a visit. he was supposed to bring her back at 6 but he had to work so he was bringing her back at 4:30.

fh and i were with our 2 youngest girls. whne fh got off the phone with om she asked me for .75 cents so that the om could use the toll road to get back to work because he had no change. now i don't have a problem helping people out but why did that bother me.

we have been the recipient of a very generous gift (although fh is having a real problem excepting it) from those here at mb's. so why did i find her offering him just .75 cents so wrong. there was no outburst of rage or breaking down crying just an uneasy feeling inside. the toll booths have change machines for crying out loud.

at first i started to give her the change. then hesitated when i found out what it was for. then as she said "fine, that's ok" and started digging in her purse for it i just gave her the .75.

is it possible for her to have a strickly business relationship with the om? no talks of work or doing little favors (.75). just simply hello grace is sick, tired, whatever.

Pops,

This would bother me as well. I don't see how you have accepted your wife having any contact with OM, on phone or otherwise.

As I see it, the OP is not a friend of mine, nor should the OP continue to be a friend of your wife's. Continuing to do friendly things for OP smacks of disrespecting you as if the OM is still important to your wife.

I don't think you are being too sensitive-and let the OM get his own 75 cents-it is his problem, not yours or your wife's.

pops,
You have been so accomodating to FH and OM. Far more than most here would be comfortable with.

You probably felt upset at the chump change because it seems FH still cares too much what OM does. It should only matter he returns Grace and leaves.... not expect anything from FH....NOTHING!

You, if you can, should be the go-between with any conversations on behalf of Grace. Period.

The small everyday chit-chat is not condusive to making you feel safe. They were lovers in the past. They sould never be talking together as friends for Grace or not.

Can you imagine if it were us?

The problem with pregnancy and affairs is just what you are writing about in my opinion. When the op is brought into the picture it is so very hard to see the WS as contrite, they continue to "get what they want" and the BS may well suffer a much longer time with OP present and accounted for for such a long time.

A few here have OP still in the picture and it seems to always cause one problem or another.

You two seriously need to get a POJA into place.

Maybe if FH accepts the session, you guys can begin to work on all the things necessary to a healthy marriage.

FH never answered me a while back when I posted to her. She probably thought "who the heck is SHE telling me what to do"

I am also a BS, and FH you have to give in order to receive. pops has done far more than most and it would be nice to see you two working toward a happier home life.

Give each other at least an hour later on to just talk honestly with no outbursts.

Actually hear one another.

No pops, you aren't wrong to feel a little miffed at that money request, not at all.

Debi

pops, I agree with the above statements.

I don't feel it as a very good example for the child, being brought up in "one big, happy family". Will she think it's OK to make mistakes and that when she grows up, if it happens to her, this is the way to go?

Your marriage has to come first. You should be the ONLY contact for visitation with OM. You have to have a chance to heal.

I wonder how long the OM would continue visitation, if he doesn't get to see or talk to your wife.

These are just some of my thoughts.

ember

i have offered to be the go between with the om. i have not made a big deal about it. i know om feels that it is between him and fh. the kids or myself do most of the exchanges on visitation days. but all other verbal communcation is between om and fh on her cell phone.

maybe by not putting my foot down before this i have been the victim of my own indifference.

fh thought that i would be to negative with om at first. now she says that she doesn't want grace to see any malcontent between them. meaning that she wants things to go smooth for grace.

maybe it's time for fh to stop excepting his calls and force him to talk with me if he needs to change times or anything.

[ October 20, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: pops ]

Pops,

I am sorry. I do think this whole situation stinks. Your wife doesn't want your daughter to see discontent between you both and OM? What is she thinking? There is discontent.What she and OM did was wrong-how is pretending it isn't so good for Grace? My H must feel the same way-he talks with OW and sees nothing wrong with doing that. She also wants them to be friends.So, for sake of OC, they are buddies, my H and I are separated and not talking, and she gets invited to his house, they spend days together, I suspect he is still sleeping with her, and he and I are done.Now, how is this good?

I think she should have no phone calls with him ever, and maybe if he didn't, he wouldn't pull this kind of krap.

Is OM married, by the way? Would love to know what his wife thinks of this.

I guess i am sorry that i dont agree with anyone, and you probably all think i am wrong. om had grace and he had asked if it would be all right to return her early cause he had to work that evening, i was happy to have grace back sooner. well in between soccer games we (pops and i) decided to take the girls out for a early dinner before our last soccer game at 5:30. I called om to ask if he could bring grace to the restaurant, instead of our house, which he agreed to do, even though it was out of his way, in the other direction, he could have said no and we would have had to stay home until grace was returned, but pops said to have him bring her to the restaurant. so on the way i guess he thought it would be faster back to take the toll road and didnt have the change, to me big deal 75cents, i have given strangers more. i am not talking to him on the phone alot, very rarely unless we need to change plans or he does. pops does almost all of the giving and receiving with my blessings. and i dont see anything wrong with keeping the peace for all, i saw an awful angry situation for years between pops and his ex girlfriend over their son, and how it efected him and his life. i will not have that for my daughter or my children. they know everything about the situation, all questions are answered as they come up, and it was never told to them that what i did was good or right. but grace is not going to feel this weight over her head, like she cant be happy to love both her families. no we are not best friends, we are parents, and we have minimum contact with each other, but i am not a hateful person, just a person that has made some terrible choices that have deeply hurt people i love, and i am doing the best i can to heal the pain. and i do believe once in a while we need to talk about grace or the plans for her visits. i have been trying hard, i have changed my life, and i am here to take care of and love my family and husband. the problem with this site is you dont see both sides, one person may sound like a saint, but no one is, we all have problems to deal with, we all say and make choices that might not be for the best, but if we stand back we try to change and do right, and thats what ive been doing. my en are not always met, and either are pops, but i think we are working on it, neither one of us are going to miraculously (is that a word?) change overnight, but we (as i was saying) are doing our best.

No, .75 is not a big deal of money to be concerned about. But the $$ is not the issue. The big issue is how pops was feeling. That's what probably should matter most.

It sounds like fh cares more about the baby's feelings rather than pop's and right now, grace is not feeling any pressure. She's just a baby!

We should pay attention to our spouse's feelings! Don't dismiss them! If .75 was a big deal to him, then it IS a big deal... Just food for thought...

There is no right or wrong, it's the individual perceptions and feelings that make the reality.

so what your saying the only person that matters is pops, not me , not grace , not the family.... no matter what he will always be right?? and i should do what ever he feels??? and what i feel should be suppressed, and my daughter should be raised with us constantly reminding her about how she came about, cause we dont want her to follow in her mothers footsteps, it doesnt matter if pops wont go to the doctor, cause he doesnt feel good, and it worries me, ill just up the life insurance, it doesnt matter about the state of our finances or the disarray of our home or anything else that lays heavely on my mind, because he just doesnt have time to deal with it, i should just be in the background living life as is told to me, i know none of this makes sense i am just rambling, but i am just so fed up with the way everyone picks one little thing like 75cents, and not look at the whole picture that i wrote, did pops tell you i didnt have to give the money if he didnt want to, no, of course not, cause i am the ****ty one, and i never look like i am ever doing anything right or even trying, cause i am seen through the eyes of what you want to see and i will never be good enough or do enough....etc.......i am tired

oh yeah, i never wanted om in our lives, i know the reasons he was included for financial for pops, but i was ready to send him off into oblivion, i was not the one that chose to include him in our lives forever, yes i chose the beginning, but we could have ended it, and he would have stayed away--i know...so dont judge me cause i talk to him about my daughter..hello we are in the real world, and i am sorry i am a little po-ed at the moment---im tired of being the bad guy...lets hear about his angelic life....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"the problem with this site is you don't see both sides"<hr /></blockquote>And WHO pray tell, is responsible in bringing your side of the story? and if we get only one side, whose fault is it?

you know if i had had a choice i would never of wanted pops son in our lives, i didnt want to be around his gf for the rest of our lives, i was jealous that another woman gave him his first child, and i would never ever be able to do that, it was gone, she wanted cs, i would have been happy for nc, but he chose otherwise with no consult with me, i never had choices either, so i loved him and went with what ever he decided, we had years of hell from that woman, and i have told my children never get involved with anyone with children, all the baggage that comes with it. and to reply to it being my fault for not hearing both sides, it doesnt matter no one listens, no one cares, i will always be in the wrong, so i will deal with it. that is the life i have dealt for myself and i am sorry that i have vented here, bad day , my head hurts , my heart aches and i am not doing well. so i apologize to everyone. this doesnt help me or you...sorry

Fullhouse,
It certainly DOES matter that pops doesn't see a doctor to ease both your minds after what happened to him a short while ago.

C'mon pops, she's lookin out for you there man.

As far as the disarray of the house....We have it too...our son wife and 18mo old granddaughter live with us...toys EVERYWHERE....messy handprints 2 feet high everywhere...pieces of bananna and cookie on our mirrors and windows... ha ha it's a blessing...what would we do with all that extra time?

Wish they were still here and when they will call next I guess.

But Fullhouse you miss the point completely.

If pops feels bad about that 75 cents then so be it, It is the willingness of you worrying about om...get it?

He would have no qualms over giving it to a stranger.

Om is not a stranger.

It's a given that you would have let om go off to where ever and pops wanted cs. He opened that door against your will.

You still can't bow to om's needs by feeling anything for him or how he went out of his way to return Grace. I also wonder about his wife.... Have you ever talked to her? Maybe that's another family ruined because you guys want a BABY to feel good about her future self.

So do the counsel session and maybe learn some tools to get started on a healthier life together.

As far as Grace goes...it is truly adult wishes that think she'll feel normal and wanted because you all act civil.

Bull!

I felt normal in a home without going around between two families. Who and what will she claim as her own?

If school kids find out when she's older do you think they will think she has the best of two worlds? Do you honestly think Grace will think that or be more confused? Or talked about behind her back or worse yet to her face.

I'd bet she'll wish she were her brother or sister from you and pops.... just my opinion.

She's going to rebel over holidays and who to spend them with... when she's older.

Maybe she'll pick sides...who knows? I've seen it with my divorced friends who's kids have been through the visitation thing. They pick sides.

My friends daughter is getting married in December and chose her stepdad to walk her down the aisle...guess what? Bio dad who left Mom to raise kids while he affaired his way to another marriage is angry at his daughter and there are hard feelings all over the place! And that is between formerly married adults!

You both need to reconsider what you are doing to not only Grace but each other...

Now pull together and get the guidance that can give you a jump start on filling EM's and do what you need to for YOURSELVES no one else can matter till you two get it together.

Grace, OM, all others must stay clear of your decisions made together....

I'm done now. No hard feelings fullhouse... pops, she has needs too.

love and prayers,
debi

Fullhouse you did know of pops gf's child and if you could deal or not... Grace was a complete surprise to pops and he had to deal with her or lose you and his whole family.

It is different!

However he should have consulted how you felt first...

If you were not yet married and he did things before you came around it is not his fault.

If you were there and he disregarded your feelings for his own ignoring you...well it's a ripe ground for an affair after years of unmet needs... still doesn't excuse it but was a cry for help as I'm sure you wish you could do it over again the right way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

love
Debi

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i have told my children never get involved with anyone with children, all the baggage that comes with it.<hr /></blockquote>With that kind of reasoning then you would also have to tell your children to dump a H or W who has an OC, wouldn't you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />and to reply to it being my fault for not hearing both sides, it doesnt matter no one listens, no one cares, i will always be in the wrong, so i will deal with it.<hr /></blockquote>I'm listening, I care.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />that is the life i have dealt for myself and i am sorry that i have vented here, bad day , my head hurts , my heart aches and i am not doing well. so i apologize to everyone. this doesnt help me or you...sorry <hr /></blockquote>Hey don't be sorry for venting this is an excellent place to vent your frustrations. Besides better to do it here and to us than at home and to pops.

I really feel that FH is being attacked unfairly. Once she gave the background that she had XOM drop Grace off at a differant location than normal...75 cents would be worth it to me to keep the peace. The road goes both ways. If Fh and pops need grace back early to go on a trip or whatever the XOM could make life miserable also. I think it is best to try to keep the peace. If pops was feeling a little uncomfortable with the situation then he needs to bring it up to FH later and in such a manner where it doesn't make FH defensive and I am sure FH would have explained her side of it.
Fh stopped posting before on this board (guessing she felt bashed before?) so I think we should give her a little slack.

Pops, FH,

I have one regret. I didn't post to Pops when this thread started. You see Pops I do think you are wrong. But I also sense you two are fussing over something when the issue is entirely something else.

FH step back for a second. Do you think the 0.75 is really the issue?? I don't. Do you think the fact that OM went out of his W to deliver Grace is the issue?? I don't. Do you think the fact that he needed change is the issue? I don't.

Pops could have offered to get change for a buck if OM needed .075, but he didn't. OM could have gotten change at the toll booth as Pops said, but he didn't. OM could have insisted on delivering Grace to your home but he didn't.

So what has Pop's knickers in a bunch?? That is the question you should have asked Pops. You KNOW it wasn't the 0.75. It was some sort of a trigger. FH the trigger didn't have anything to do with you directly, but guessing from the conversation here, it was OM talking to you on the cell phone. It could be something else.

It seems to me FH that when Pops sort of "pops" a cork, the first thing you should ask him is: "What is triggering you Pops?" Talk to me and let me know. THEN the two of you address the issue, or just smile at him and tell him you love him. Men are a sucker for that you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pops, I think you also need to be honest with yourself and FH at these times. Something got to you didn't it? You need to stop and think about it and tell FH when you feel triggered and figure out what it is. Sometimes you won't know. Perhaps you two need to talk about these things and decide on a protocol for addressing these issues.

Now be honest, it wasn't the lousy 0.75 was it??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Come on, fess up.

One last thing Pops, FH's comment about you taking care of your health reminds me of a joke which really isn't funny but I will repeat it because there is a message in it you need to think about.

It goes like this.

Why do men die before women do?

Ans: Because they want to.

Just a million laughs. If you are not taking care of your health there is a reason for that as well. Is it because you don't care if you live or die right now?? Are you not sure that FH really cares if you live or die? Is it that this whole thing has gotten to you far more than you realize or are willing to admit?? Pops, do you need FH's help?

I am serious here, do you need her help? Do you need to know you can depend on her and you don't feel you can?? You know the only way you are going to find out don't you?? You are going to have to depend on her. You are going to have to let her help you, and that means you are finally going to have to open up about your pain.

FH, do you realize what I am saying here?? I feel you need to understand something. Right now Grace is an infant, and they take a lot of physical care but not as much emotional care as older children or your spouse. The person that needs emotional care right now is your H. Someone earlier eluded to this, but stop and think about it. You are seeing the signs. You are seeing it in Pops taking care of his health (he is doing what a lot of us males do when we start to feel we are NOT needed), you probably see it in his enthusiasm to do things, and that even means helping you.

You two need to really talk. I don't think this talk is about affairs, or the past. I think this talk needs about support, help, caring, and focus. It is NOT about who is at fault for what. It is about your dreams for the future, what you love about one another, and realizing that you two are both hurt by the past.

It is time to refocus, and FH I suspect in this situation you need to lead your family, and specifically Pops toward better times, and healthier views of things.

Both of you please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I see and understand both sides. Maybe that's because of where I'm coming from.

pops, does the toll money represent a little of the "soft spot" you spoke of awhile back? I totally understand why it bothers you. My H would give the shirt off his back to a stranger in need, but boy oh boy, I can easily see the same reaction to 75 cents for x-om!!!

fh, I'm glad you're voicing your thoughts. It helps when we can hear both sides. I know all too well about suppressing your thoughts and feelings. I know about being the WW and thinking you don't deserve to have a bad day or have a right to burden H w/ certain thoughts and feelings. I know about being a WW and feeling uncomfortable about posting on here about how I'm REALLY feeling somedays.

Please keep posting, I care, and so do soooooo many others!!

Also, please do the counseling. Gem and Fof8 have given you and pops an awesome gift!

I know you are an extremely busy lady, but if you ever want to email me, please do so. I would love to write to you too. KEJJS@aol.com

Take good care.
~autumnday

Oh cripe, JL, I should just delete my post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Here's a joke for you.

Which is the worst post on any given thread?

The one right after someone as insightful as JL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

(esp. when his was not seen prior to posting!!)

Take good care.
~autumnday

AD,

Your post I thought was right on the money and very good. FH needs to feel she has friends here. She does more than she realizes, but I think your presence and advice will mean a lot to her, surely more than mine.

My only complaint about FH's posts is that she is too defensive. She doesn't need to defend herself here. AFter all if everyone is pulling of Pops to have a good and happy marriage, that sort of means everyone is pulling for FH to have one too.

FH,

I don't know if you girls understand this, but us guys do. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> If mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So FH we want you to be happy as well, which means it would help if sometimes you posted your issues as well. Everyone KNOWS Pops isn't perfect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But we all like him just the same. I think you will find out you are well liked as well.

God Bless,

JL

WOW,,,,, did this get out of hand. especially in this house.

i did talk to fh about this same question. even told her that i thought i should post it here thinking i may very well have been to sensative.

autumn,,,, you are right the issue had nothing to do with the amount.

jl,,, as usual you hit the nail on the head. i am feeling insecure about our relationship. not that we are heading for divorce but more in line with not feeling valued. i do need fh to help me right now. i don't feel that she understands how much.

i am as concerned about my health as fh and have taken steps to find out what is happening inside.

____________________________________________
Everyone KNOWS Pops isn't perfect.
____________________________________________

WHAT????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Pops:

"i am feeling insecure about our relationship. not that we are heading for divorce but more in line with not feeling valued. i do need fh to help me right now. i don't feel that she understands how much."<hr /></blockquote>Have you conveyed this to her? If you have, what was her answer?

Pops & FH

I do feel for both of you. I know first hand on both sides how difficult this situation is. Please FH, if you ever need to talk let me know.

Best of luck to both of you.

jl,
thank you for your post, it was stated in a very calming way, last night after i posted and pops came home and read, we argued and did not resolve anything, i woke up (after sleeping at the foot of the bed) in tears, feeling depressed, unable to get things going for work, i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, our relationship--i dont know what kind of relationship we have anymore, i feel i am here because---because he doesnt know what else to do with me, i dont really know if he can still trully love me, it is so hard to respond --when you feel no response. does that make sense? i dont know how to explain how i feel. i love pops, i love all my children, i want to be here till the day i die, but i want the laughter back, i feel like im flatlining...so sad...how do i find myself so that i can be there for my family. i dont know. i feel there is too much inside of pops, that he will always put me down, never have faith in me, treat me like a child. i want to feel love and i want to give love, but i feel its lost. he gets angry if i answer the phone and say hi or hello. how are you suppose to answer--hey poopbutt? the phone is ringing----its my daughter, will be back in a moment
fullhouse

FH and Pops,

At the risk of playing amateur pyshc here, and because I am YOUR ELDER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> let me offer you two some thoughts to consider. First for FH, you said <blockquote>quote:<hr /> how do i find myself so that i can be there for my family. i dont know.<hr /></blockquote>FH, being a guy, the only kind of advice I can really give about this stuff is what a guy would. Something sort of straight ahead. You want to find yourself, have a look in the mirror, then analyze the situation. Who are you? You are a mother, your Pops W, and most of all you are someone with love to give. I fear you are waiting for permission to wholeheartedly be those things again like you used to be. You don't need Pops permission to love him. To give him a kiss, slap him on the butt, and tell him you are there to love him and he darned well better straighten up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What I am trying to say is ACTION is what I would recommend. You want to find yourself start doing things. Things you think are productive and then go from there. Ask for feedback from Pops, but keep it moving and you will find yourself.

This I know is a guy sort of advice, but sometimes us guys do something right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> i feel there is too much inside of pops, that he will always put me down, never have faith in me, treat me like a child. i want to feel love and i want to give love, but i feel its lost.<hr /></blockquote>FH, first if you give love it won't be lost. Look in Pops post he says he needs your help, the problem he has is he knows he needs it but he doesn't know what "it" is. You looking him in the eye and telling him you love him and you will love, and acting in a loving way, I suspect will go a long way in this. You are waiting for his permission for you to act as you want to, and you should "just do it".

I suspect two things will happen. You will feel his love in return and you will gain his trust as he learns he can lean on you for emotional support.

You may not realize this but YOU are the strong one right now. You need to act like it. You need to stand up and proactively take charge of the love life, the level of affection. You shouldn't be at the bottom of the bed, you should be there with your arms wrapped around Pops, and just tell him "this is the way its going to be." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ANd then make it be that way, every night. Tough if he cannot take affection and love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You know us guys hate to admit this, but we do like it.

Finally, I think you need to realize something here and I am very serious about this. In my family the "preferred method of demise" for males is heart attack. I was the oldest living male in my family at 48. Heart disease and particularly heart attacks affect men (and I am sure women as well, but we are talking about men here) in profound and subtle ways. I am guessing but I think that a lot of the insecurity you see in Pops is NOT due to your A, it is due to very definite message of vulnerability and mortality he got with his episodes. Further, I hate to say it, he is getting older and most men begin to doubt and have concerns about their abilities.

Please realize that even if Grace wasn't there, and you never had an A it is likely that Pops would be facing some very deep issues. He needs your help, and support. Further, he says he needs it. FH I think you are looking at this wrong. You want to have his trust, and have him have faith in you, reach out and help him. He isn't certain of many things but he NEEDS to be certain of you, and only YOU can help him here. It is a question of YOU standing up and deciding to focus less on "I'm sorry" and more on "how can I help". That is my guess. You need to be the woman you were, his partner, and that means you have to decide to be just that. Take control FH, quit waiting for him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> he gets angry if i answer the phone and say hi or hello. how are you suppose to answer--hey poopbutt? <hr /></blockquote>I am betting that if you do, the things I am discussing or something else proactive as you and Pops decide that this issue will go away completely. He fears you are NOT strong enough to take control of your life. You fear his anger. His anger is coming from his fear FH. Remove the fear and you can answer the darned phone anyway you want, that is my bet.

You heard in his post what he needs. He needs your help with his fears and his uncertainty. The uncertainty isn't just about you, but more about him. Please stop and realize this.

Pops, you want to know what you can do? Read the quote below. Just as you need her help, she needs you to help set the tone. I know life isn't a bowl of cherries right now, but you need to help her take those cherries that are left, dump them in a big bowl of ice cream and sit back and enjoy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> i want to be here till the day i die, but i want the laughter back, i feel like im flatlining...so sad...<hr /></blockquote>Pops, I think you know this but I fear FH hasn't quite got it. You are waiting for her to become more proactive aren't you?? You want her to stand up and tell you she is here for you and she will darned well love you even if you are a ???? sometimes. But, Pops you also need to help her do this, by talking to her about your concerns, your fears, and allowing her to take a more active role in your life and feeling. Not just the HURT ones, but the ones where you struggle with yourself. You need to permit her to make mistakes. I know you fear the BIG ONE, but in your fear of that you are paralyzing her. That is my thought on this.

Life is short and too darned painful not to laugh at it. You need to show her how to do that.

Well, I am hopping off of my soap box. I know I missed at least a few targets if not all, but I hope that something I have said will help you two to see things a bit differently.

I am reminded of a college football coach I had, who yelled at me one day "don't just stand there, do something WRONG, RIGHT for once in your life." Whether you get it right the first time, start DOING something for each other even if it is wrong. You can adjust things much better when there is energy and movement in the system.

God Bless You Both,

JL

tmcm,,,,, the answer is yes. i don't know how fh would answer though.

i feel that i have told fh what my needs are more times then i can count. she meets them for a couple of days or a week then there is nothing for a month or so.

this makes me feel like i am not worth the effort.

jl,,,,,

***i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, ***

this is where some of my problem lies. when i try to have fun with fh she seems indiferent to my efforts or gets mad if i put an ice cube down her pants <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . saying that that is mean. or if i try to give her a quick grab on one of her private areas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> she covers up and says the kids will see. when she comes home she is unset that the house is a mess. back packs all over. yet when the om calls her attitude turns to instant happiness. not giggly all over but like "well hi, how are you? haven't heard from you in awhile." it may very well not be that way but that is what I see.

she is right that i handle most exchanges with grace. but at the restuarant she seemed almost antsy to go out to the parking lot to get her from om.

i just don't see the joy when she is with me. she is always tired or simmering at something.

and i am afraid to show to much emotion or effection until i see some sustained effort on her part to show the same to me. i know there were unmet en's that led to her A, but her main one was time. that's why we go out so often and i ask if she wants to go with me wherever i go gas station, hardware store, pharmacy, a late night run to pick up a check or set of plans, etc..

i feel i made an effort to show her my affection in many different ways before and they went unnoticed. now i am protecting my heart so to speak until she backs her words up with actions.

sorry i have been reading and typing for about 2 hours and can't even remember what i was thinking right now. i need to take a break and finish later.

Fullhouse,
pops won't give a response until he feels you want him and only him.

As a BS I see what he's saying. You may not be aware of it but you are still acting in a way with om, as pops sees it, that is too comfortable. I mean acting too nice when he calls.

You don't have to be the one still getting those calls.

pops would it help if FH handed you the phone to take care of business? If so tell her.

Fullhouse, that flatliner way you feel can be depression... or in-a-rut type feeling.

Please call the counsel center with your concerns of unmet EN'S... please.

At least you both will begin to see some light!
It's there just misplaced after years of the same ole routine.

pops, the icecube thing isn't romantic...sorry..
How about you two writing a letter of what you'd like from each other to spice things up and bring it to Steve Harley for advice on where to begin?

Love to you both,
Debi

Pops,

I thought I would quickly respond to your posts on an item by item basis. First, let me say I feel your uncertainty and reticence in opening up is very understandable. I don't think FH knows how this has damaged you. I suspect she feels you are angry at her or unforgiving, but what I see here is that you are just so unsure. Sound familiar??? Sort of sounds like FH doesn't it?

I do think Gemini is right that FH may be depressed and that is something she must address via a doc. Plus, life is more hectic now.

So on to what you said. <blockquote>quote:<hr />jl,,,,,

***i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, ***

this is where some of my problem lies. when i try to have fun with fh she seems indiferent to my efforts or gets mad if i put an ice cube down her pants [Roll Eyes] . saying that that is mean. or if i try to give her a quick grab on one of her private areas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> she covers up and says the kids will see. <hr /></blockquote>Ok, this is advice for FH. Fight fire with ice, put a cube or two down HIS pants I think the reaction will be much more intense from him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> However, perhaps play that is NOT sexual in nature might be useful right now. More smiles and relaxing times. Pops, she needs to become your friend again. This will take the effort from both of you. She has to be more "friendly" and you need to do the same.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />when she comes home she is unset that the house is a mess. back packs all over. yet when the om calls her attitude turns to instant happiness. not giggly all over but like "well hi, how are you? haven't heard from you in awhile." it may very well not be that way but that is what I see.<hr /></blockquote>Got ya. You don't see that casual easy "well hi, how are you..." when you call or talk to her do you?? You miss that don't you? You want that and from the sounds of it so does she. Since you cannot change her, you could change and have a look at how you converse with her. Lighten it up perhaps or be more casual and friendly to her. It would be nice if she did the same for you, but you can only change you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />she is right that i handle most exchanges with grace. but at the restuarant she seemed almost antsy to go out to the parking lot to get her from om.<hr /></blockquote>Could be she was anxious to have Grace back? Could be she was anxious to have the exchange over so that your family could get on with what you were doing? Could be you are partly right? You need to ask. Pops, you making a disrespectful judgement, DJ, here and you know that is an LB. Don't try to read her mind, ask her, and tell her why you are asking...so you don't have to read her mind and guess wrong again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i just don't see the joy when she is with me. she is always tired or simmering at something.
and i am afraid to show to much emotion or effection until i see some sustained effort on her part to show the same to me. <hr /></blockquote>The old "which came first the chicken or the egg"? The correct answer by the way is "the rooster." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Usually when people get themselves into a binary yes/no, him/me situation, they are failing to see other possibilities and solutions. You want her to demonstrate that she loves you before you will show her, and she wants to feel safe before she will show you.

Pops, if I told you that you had a year to live, and you wanted to show FH your love, would you wait for her to do it first??? I don't think so.

Pops in your wedding vows you promised to love and cherish her. ANd then there was that thing "for better or worse". You promised to love her, why are you waiting on her??? It is your promise that you must keep, NOT HERS. She made a similar promise and it is up to her to address how seriously she takes promises or vows, NOT YOURS.

The woman needs loving and you promised to do it. Interestingly, have you noticed that the vow did not say anything about "feelings". You may not "feel" like loving her, but you promised to do so anyway. Sorry, but the "rooster" part of this conundrum is that you do what you promised no matter if she is doing it or not. Open your heart Pops. I know it is hard to do, but you will be rewarded if you do so, no matter what FH does. You may get the love you deserve and were promised from her, or you may not, but you will know you kept your promise.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i know there were unmet en's that led to her A, but her main one was time. that's why we go out so often and i ask if she wants to go with me wherever i go gas station, hardware store, pharmacy, a late night run to pick up a check or set of plans, etc..<hr /></blockquote>Good thinking. Now do you hold her hand? Do you open the car door for her? Do you show her and the people around you that you do have respect for her? Do you help her get seated?? If not, do it. She is YOUR W, and you need to show respect for her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i feel i made an effort to show her my affection in many different ways before and they went unnoticed. now i am protecting my heart so to speak until she backs her words up with actions. <hr /></blockquote>So to quote Dr. Phil: "How's that workin for ya?"

Please know that I would be asking FH the same question and I hope that you bring her here to read what I have posted, because my advice to you holds for her as well. Here is where this site shines. Harley recognized a long time ago that sometimes NEEDS not being met was not due to lack of effort but lack of correct targeting.

Frankly, you are missing your target because you aren't firing and that has to stop. You need to get in the game and meet your vows. But, I would strongly advise you to talk with FH at length about what you can do to show you love her.

Now as bad as you are or you aren't, it is clear that FH is really missing the target. She says she is trying, and I believe her, but you are not feeling many direct hits are you?? I think that is because she has not resumed control of her life and to some extent yours. Hence my previous posting to FH about helping you. I sense you would view her coming to you and asking "how can I help you" as a huge love deposit, especially if you two could then talk about what you are feeling without tears, defense but simply in a problem solving way, AND then she followed up.

Am I close???

Pops, you got to step up my man and I know that FH has to as well. Right now your marriage should be top priority, not so much the kids or a clean house, but you two need to get out of this rut, and I think ACTION on both of your parts is required. This sitting around waiting for the other person is not getting it and it builds resentment and you know what resentment is right. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.<hr /></blockquote>I get the strong feeling you both are doing exactly this.

Finally, to FH

You know you screwed up big time, you know you broke your vows to Pops big time, but what you don't seem to realize is that the Vows are still in place. You may have broken them but they are still there and by the fact that Pops is still married to you, that means the break in the vows no longer exists. Just as he must honor his vows to you, you must honor yours to him. FH, the past is past but you NEED to learn from it and show Pops what you learned.

What I am trying to say, is I think your guilt may be paralyzing you, but you have been forgiven Pops is there with you. ANd he needs your help. He is leaning or wants to lean on you for help because the MARRIAGE didn't die, it didn't get broken, it got bent badly, but when Pops decided to stay and when you decided you wanted to remain married to Pops rather than be with OM, you both forfieted the right to NOT fulfill your vows.

Folks, quit staring at the chicken and the egg and start hunting for the rooster: TOGETHER.

God Bless,

JL

I'll have to agree with others here, sounds like FH is suffering from depression. Not a fun thing to go through.

Pops,

Alot of what you have said about how FH act sounds alot like me. I have a hard time being around my husband. But if my XMM calls he to accuses me of being happy to hear from him or being to friendly with him. In all honesty I don't feel I am. I know I hold no feelings for XMM, but have a hard time with the emotions. Could this be a way of FH hiding her emotions from OM?? This way he doesn't know how depressed she is? I feel that FH is going through a guilt stage. She needs to take time and find herself and heal. I'm currently going through this myself.

Any way, I do hope you two can work through this. It isn't an easy task. Lots of time and tears. Prayers are with you. And FH, Please get check for depression.

Good one Crazymum, good one.
She may be hiding true feelings so om may think things are peachy and they aren't. In pops defense!!!

I still feel JL is right... the vows are still there and you two need to get advice on how to "come together", as the Beatles would say!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blessings and we're pulling for you two!
S_U_C_C_E_S_S!!

love
Debi

[ October 22, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: pops ]

crazy,,,,,,,
___________________________________________
sounds like FH is suffering from depression
___________________________________________

i have felt this was true for some time. even prior to her ea or pa. her sister even suggested to her to get checked for it way prior to her A.

_____________________________________________
I know I hold no feelings for XMM, but have a hard time with the emotions
_____________________________________________

please explain this statement further. i feel i understand somewhat but with my brain spinning from the last day or 2 i want to be sure.

this will most likely bite me in the butt also but here goes.

in the more recent past i have tried not bringing things that bother me here to the board. rather just try and relate my experiences in this matter to those who are struggling on the same road. the reason is that fh reads here also. even when i relate my experiences to someone when fh reads them we oft times end up in a tiff. that's why i have avoided asking some of the questions i have struggled with. this one turned into a major hoopla in this house to the point we are both asking ourselves "for what?". please keep in mind that i have never said anything here that i would not or had not previous to writing tell/told fh. i never saw this as turning into this bruhaa as i asked her the same exact question the night before.

i try my best not to upset the kettle. i don't want to fight with her but once it starts i have a hard time letting go. if she thinks it's not a big deal i want to know why if it's not a big deal can't she just exceopt that it bothers me and move on instead of wanting to prove why it didn't bother her.

so i am in a quandry wondering how i ask questions to ease my heart and not go thru this nightmare each time. maybe i just don't ask.

last night we argued again. i tried to talk to her but it ended negatively. we were out running errands. when we pulled into the drive i got out and she said i stormed out so she drove away. ater a few minutes i called her. she was parked somewhere just sitting in the car. we talked for a long time and i ended up telling her of my fears and what i percieve as my failures in life. i told her that with one of our talks just post d-day i felt like my feelings died. in mb's terms the bank was empty. that i wanted to love herthe way i did then but don't know how and i need her help. then i asked her to please come home. she did but we didn't speak the rest of the night.

i am not in any way shape or form trying to make her out to be the bad guy and myself a saint. i know that neither is true.

jl,,,,, i understand what you said about not changing her and changing me. i am afraid to change me as i don't want to ever be vulnerable like before without some sign that i won't be broken again. so now i ask have fh and i come to a mexican standoff since i am sure she feels the same way? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ October 22, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: pops ]

Pops,

You and FH need to stop and really face some serious issues here. Your health, her health (depression), the fact that she is not seeing you as we are. The question is why not. You say FH reads here. Well, perhaps she needs to come here and tell us how she sees you, what she fears about you, and what she sees as changes in you, good and bad.

I have this feeling that you both are using DJs and it is killing what could be a good marriage. She needs to understand that you being out of sorts, or hurt, or feeling down, or just confused IS NOT a reflection on how you feel about her. Does that make sense. He talking to OM can drive you around the bend, but you still love her right?? You still want her to help you right? You still want to make her happy right?

She needs to separate out things abit. I fear she sort of has a whole bunch of things really balled up and misconnected. Just a guess. Plus, she does feel guilty, she does feel as if she is NOT on the same plane as you. I would bet she still has fleeting thoughts and moments where OM is in the picture and that gets her down. I am guessing but from what I have read here she is pretty normal, but she needs help with sorting this stuff out.

You said <blockquote>quote:<hr /> understand what you said about not changing her and changing me. i am afraid to change me as i don't want to ever be vulnerable like before without some sign that i won't be broken again. so now i ask have fh and i come to a mexican standoff since i am sure she feels the<hr /></blockquote>Let's see here. Why didn't you leave the marriage when you found out about the affair and the coming of GRACE ( I like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )? I think you knew it would have hurt worse to leave than stay. Are you happier now than before the A started? Has protecting yourself brought comfort, safety,... love?

In fact, you are broken now. That is what we have been talking about Pops. Getting you help to put you back together along with the marriage because you are broken NOW.

So I'm sittin her thinkin to myself, what is there to protect? Is Pops really doing just fine and I am missing something here? Isn't his heart broken now and he is just trying to let it heal?

Then I think of the old bandaides and all of the cuts and scrapes I had. I remember I used to keep that bandaide on for days, and when I took it off, man were things ugly and a bit smelly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I recall the Doc telling me take it over every night, let the air get to it and change it every day and it will heal better.

Which leads me back to you and FH. Now I don't know if she behaved before the A as she did last night with the car, but it isn't good. I keep thinkin you and FH have bandaged your hearts but you two need to open up and let the wounds air out and heal.

Pops, I'm thinkin your natural instincts are right for the short term to stop the bleeding, but they lead to infection in the long term. I'm thinkin that you need to be thinkin about protecting and healing your heart by opening it up to FH.

Pops you don't need a sign from FH to do the right thing. What needs to happen is that FH will need to reach the same conclusion. She needs to open her heart to you, and let the fresh breezes of your life heal what is so damaged.

You know the interesting point here. If you think about this for long you will realize that it doesn't matter who was at fault BEFORE. What matters is what you do starting today to heal, and help the other heal. FH has got to quit defending a fort that she, you, OM abandoned some time ago. She needs to sally forth into the world and join you.

Pops can you talk to her about this? Can the two of you come her and read and discuss how GREAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> our advice is or how lousy our advice is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ? Can you start by practicing that???

I really do wish the two of you would avail yourselves of the kind offer of counseling. But, if you cannot do that, agree to talk and LISTEN to each other. However, the first agreement that each of you should make is that you realize that FH isn't out to hurt you, and she needs to realize you are not out to hurt her.

Must go.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

jl,,,,

-------------------------------------------------
Can the two of you come her and read and discuss how GREAT our advice is or how lousy our advice is ? Can you start by practicing that???
-------------------------------------------------

i would like that very much and have sugested that to her. she starts but ends up "defending a fort". i have asked her to read magizine articles and mb's books and discuss with me what we read. but the discussion part never seems to happen.

i would love to take gem and fo8 up on their most generous offer but fh thinks it is to much to except.

back to work, pops

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> That's too bad you two..... wish you'd reconsider.

love
Debi

i have again been re-reading this whole post. when i look back on it i realized that i was only trying to get a second opinion on whether i needed work on being to sensitive about fh's atitude as I percieved it.

then after fh's response i took some of the things she said very personal and the crap then hit the fan in our house.

and now it has moved on to what the 2 of us need to move out of our state of limbo.

the way i see marriage is a series of giving. i give, she gives, she gives, he gives. the problem i am havng (and this is probably very over simplisized) is that i feel our relationship prior to the A was a i give 85% and she gives 15%. from my perspective that was an uneven relationship. now fh will obviously view the giving on the opposite extreme. maybe that is because we need to understand better what the others needs are and how to meet them rather then giving each other what we desire personally.

now this is from my arrogant side in that i feel i do understand what her needs are. i am just finding it hard to continue fullfilling them without feeling like fh is meeting some of mine. and the answer is yes i have explained them very clearly to her, imho. i don't need to have a 50/50 relationship although that would be nice but somewhere along the lines of 60/40 or 65/35 would be good.

pops and fullhouse, I do not understand why you both can't agree to no contact with OM. He could still see Grace. By the way, how does his wife feel about all of this? Perhaps the "no contact" would help their marriage too.

I'm sorry we are all hurting, or we would not, all, be here.

But, I believe hurting and learning, help us grow.

ember

ps. I meant no contact between either of you with OM. I didn't mean no contact with Grace, and OM and his wife. I meant have a neutral party involved for visitation, only until your marriage is better repaired.

This is only a suggestion.

ember

Pops,

How about you deciding to give 100%? In fact how about you and FH giving 100%? The problem with comparing effort is that it is comparing Apples and oranges, and no outside person can really judge who is giving and getting what.

The solution, as I see it is, to use an old football term, to "sell out." It is the hardest thing as a coach to get kids to do, because the sense of self preservation and trust. To "sell out" is to simply give all you got until you drop (top level runners do it). It doesn't matter if you are first, last or in between.

Now the other hard part about "selling out" is that you may not finish the race or the game, and the kids have to develop a trust in the coaches that it won't be held against them if they do go all the way, and fail. Now you know since you coach kids, that if you have one that gives it all they have, no matter what happens, you are going to keep going to that kid whenever you can, because in your eyes he didn't fail. He did what others would not do. But he/she may or may not trust that you see the effort. The need to develop a trust to believe that you will see it. Yet, really whether they trust you or not, they need to do it, if they want to get better.

So what does this have to do with you? Pops if you want the marriage to work YOU are going to have to "sell out". Put it all on the table and give 100%. If FH cannot respond and make the marriage something YOU want to be in following your efforts, then I guess you will have your answers. But the process of "selling out" is not predicated on FH or her behavior. She can only control how long you can keep doing it. If she doesn't respond and in turn repond to you, then you will run out of gas and it will be over. If she does, then you won't and your marriage will be better and more satisfying for each of you.

If FH were here I would be telling her the same thing. I firmly believe that marriage is a 100/100 thing, but the only person that can determine if you are giving 100% is you. If it is enough the marriage makes it, if it is not then the marriage does not.

Pops, I don't know what kind of a woman FH really is. I don't know what kind of a human being she is. I don't know her strengths and weakness.

What I do know is that you thought enough of her to marry her and then have a bunch of kids with her, so she must be something special. I realize that you are questioning the specialness, since she made her decision to have the A, but it is still there or I doubt that you would still be there. Yes, I know the presence of the children in your life influenced your decision, but there is still something there isn't there?

I have been thinking a bit more about you two and some of my advice particularly to FH. I don't know if she reads this or will read this, but let me try and put a different slant on things and perhaps a bit of philosophy (sorry). I recall when I got married I got the lecture from the minister, that when W and I married we would become one. To put it into MB language, we would cease to act independently, and we would rely on our spouse to meet our needs, POJA is the classic of NOT acting independently.

So, no matter who or what went on in your marriage, the A was FH acting independently from you. She made independent decisions about the marriage, what she thought you felt, how you felt, how she felt, what she wanted, and what would make her happy. In affect, she took the LEADERSHIP role in your family and she led herself off into the A. These independent decisions fractured the "ONENESS" if there is such a term of the marriage.

I am guessing that you are feeling that since she took the leadership role to do things independently of you, she needs to take the leadership in putting back the marriage into a state of oneness. But, she isn't leading, she is not taking the initiative, she is hiding, and she is not trying to put things back together. Is that what you feel??

If it is, perhaps it is time to reevaluate your roles and what each of you expect. I don't mean who wins the arguements, who starts them, or anything like that. I mean who is going to set the goals for this marriage, articulate them to their spouse, and then pick up the spouse and carry them??

I am thinking you are going to have to do that Pops. I am thinking you are going to have to carry this until you drop or until FH puts her legs on the ground and starts to help you. You will have to "sell out" to do this and hopefully FH will start to pick up the slack before you run out of gas.

I realize this is about both of you, but only you can decide to "sell out" to make this work and if you do then FH must decide if she is going to "sell out" to help you.

So what am I saying? I am saying that your focus should be on you and not on what FH does or doesn't do. If she doesn't do what is needed you will run out of gas, and things will be over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I do hope she quits defending abandoned forts, but if she doesn't then your decisions will be made for you. You won't go on, you will have given all you have and sold out.

I don't know if I have gotten close enough to be right about your situation, but I do hope that something I have said will persuade you to think long an hard about giving 100%.

God Bless,

JL

jl,,, i wanted to respond to many of the questions you asked in the previous posts but time and my unbelievably slow typing did not allow it. so i will try with this last post. hopefully it will clear up many questions from all.

first is the question of do i love her. a pesounding YES. you are right at first there were many different reasons why i stayed in the marriage. the kids, financial, insecurety, fear just to name a few. but the bottom line is that although we still have some bumps to smooth out i would rather be married to fh then not. i can't imagine life without her next to me at night.

--------------------------------------------------
she isn't leading, she is not taking the initiative, she is hiding, and she is not trying
to put things back together.
--------------------------------------------------

yes this is how i feel. i try to imagine myself in her shoes. i see me breaking my back to make up for the damage i did. i do not however see fh doing the same. not that she is not doin anything as she is trying but she seems to be trying to do things to get herself back. and since i fel she is in some state of depession it is very hard on her.

i have been waiting for her to get it together and it has not been productive. i was just thinking about this today. i was thinking that i will have to get myself started toward being the h that i was prior to the A. back to doing all the little stuff flowers, back rubs, love notes, etc..

the fear i have with this is that i felt that it went unnoticed for many tears prior to her A. therefore my fears are that i don't have much patience if she stays the course as before. i will assume that she doesn't care.

as far as i am concerned i have moved past the A part. probably 90/10%. there are still some unpleasant movies that rerun through my head every so often but not much. seeing theom when he picks up grace or drops her off doesn't bother me. i am so concerned with making that an easy transition for grace that i don't pay much attention to him. when he drops her off the smile on her face is all that i see.

the main topic of this thread was just to see if i was in fact being to sensative. i didn't think so but just wanted to ask. then when fh replied her response set me off so we began our spat here.

will write later as i am off to soccer again, pops