I know this question has been asked a thousand times but I have yet to see an answer.
Please explain to me the way you view the difference between a woman putting a child up for adoption and a man walking away from a child.
Why is one abandonment and the other is not ?
Please no flaming, I REALLY REALLY want to understand this.

<small>[ March 28, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

I'll answer this the best I can. The way I see it is if a woman gives up a child for adoption and she is unable to care for this child, love, finances, stability, etc., and/or is very young and has not really started to build a life I don't feel that is selfish, in fact I think it's a very selfless act. You should not expect your parents to raise your kids for you until your out of college or off the drugs etc. As well, if a "ow" who gets pregnant by mm puts her child up for adoption who is in the above catagory again, I don't see a problem with that either. But if a woman who is capable of raising this child (with or without cs) but just does not want to be bothered to me it's just getting rid of the problem. She is 50% responsible for this incident. IF mm does not want c then she should just give the child up? Again, two wrongs don't make a right. I struggled myself with the option of adoption only because of my age and the circumstances and my kids. Well I realized through counseling it was me being selfish and taking the easy road out, which in the long run was really something I would not been able to live with.....As I'm fresh with this....I just had my daughter last week I can't imagine giving my daughter up to anyone! When they took her out and I saw her I don't care if xmm is there for her or not....I will be. She is perfect and I she will be okay. I do feel he owes her cs. NOT ME, HER! Again it goes back to 50% responsiblity. He also had a choice of birth control and what we did. He also had a 13 month relationship with me and it was not a one night stand. He was never told not to use condoms. He just knew my history and saw my history to concieve my twins. To me if someone is able to take care then they should keep there child. To willing not want to have contact is abondantment in my eyes. It's a choice they make, and yes I do feel it's to make there life easier and less conflict. I'm sorry but that is how I feel. Most men are conflict avoiders. I know xmm has not faced the truth of our relationship with me or his wife. He has lied to us both. He would want this all to go away and his answer would be to get rid of the problem. Not caring the aftermath to either me who is pregnant (and to bs when it comes out in the open). I know that the ow/xow is the horror and most of the blame is put there. But really take away the fact that she was involved with a mm for a moment. Lets say you got pregnant with uh, or any man. You are the age you are now, and have your life in order and kids in place etc. How can you say it would be that easy to just give up that child? Are you going to take that easy road out just to not have to deal with it? Or are you going to do what it takes? I think if most of the woman here were faced in simular situations they would just NOT give that child up, and would expect the father of the child to pay his "FAIR" share of cs. JMHO and no flames inteded either.

needtomoveon,
Thank you so much for the answer. But I'm not just talking about MM walking away from a child. I'm talking about all men.
I understand what you said and it makes some very good points but I'm still reading that if a women decides she cannot parent a child for whatever reasons then it is a selfless act but a man is a conflict avoider.
Do you not agree that even though his reasons are not the same as a women's that does not make them any less valid ?

coming out of lurk mode to say: there is no difference. At least not in my mind.

///there is no difference. At least not in my mind. ///

So are you saying they are both bad or are they both acceptable ?

I guess that depends on your views on adoption. I think in either case, there can be valid reasons for giving up a child...and there can be selfish reasons. Situational.

I recently asked xMM to sign away his parental rights and he is talking to his lawyer to get it done....so I guess I can't be that much against it. In his case, I encouraged it.

Will they let him sign away his rights? From what I understand is that he can't do that unless someone is stepping up to adopt.

Before I was A BS, before I was a mother, before I was a wife, I had this opinion and it has not changed much through the years, if anything my opinion about it has gotten stronger.

I think adoption is a gift for both the child and the parents who adopt them.

I feel that EVERY child should be born into and raised in a home w/ both a mom and a dad, married to each other, and a child born into anything different is getting ripped off.

I said "should be born into". I understand that sometimes marriages end for unavoidable reasons but I think the couple should try their very hardest and then some, when they have children, to keep it together.

And you have to remember, BOTH parents have to agree to give the child up for adoption, it is not just the mother.

I don't agree that it is the "easy" way out. It is the best for a child to be raised by 2 parents so I think it is putting the child's needs first.

Good question though, when compared to a "man" choosing to not be involved, it's considered abandonement.

Couldn't it be, that some men, married or not, upon the realization that they do not want to continue a relationship w/ the mother, also know that having to go back and forth, would not be fair or healthy for a child. Niether would a long drawn out ugly custody battle. Neither one wants to give up the child so the father concedes to let the child live in peace w/ the mother full time in order to, at least, give the child a stable home.

(hmmmm....but then that would mean that some men are actually thinking of the child's best interest....and NOT themselves.....what a concept!)

Ahhhh...remember the good ol' days when single motherhood was mainly a "teenage" problem and NOT the mainstream? (sigh) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Giving a child up for adoption is the decision of both parents, by law the father has to be notified. I think a father walking away from a child whether or not planned is abandonment, the same for mothers who walk out on their children, which happened to my girlfriend when she was very small. Its running from your responsibilities. No matter how we feel, everything we do has consequences. It is sad to find yourself in this predictament. And truly I think i would rather not have a man involved in my childs life (when I have chosen to keep this child) if he truly does not want it. So I cant imagine forcing someone to be a part of a life they do not care about. It just seems that your asking for more problems and sorrow. So even though i feel yes both people should be responsible for the life of this child, and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility. But I firmly believe that the responsibility should be that the child is taken care of financially, so that she lives in the matter that all your children should live. The love and support emotionally should be by the parent or parents that choose to be with the child and truly want the child in their lives. Does this make sense or am I just rambling....trying to explain but sometimes I just dont have a way with words.

I want to thank all of you for the answers you have given so far.


///Giving a child up for adoption is the decision of both parents///

So what you are saying is if both parents agree to give the child up its OK. But if one wants to keep the child then the other parent ( mother or father) should put aside their own feelings and help raise the child ?

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

The saddest thing of all is that there are so many wonderful married couples that arn't able to have their own children. They have to sit on waiting lists, and go through so much. Then we have the unwanted children, living with their mothers as a tool for welfare or child support. I'm sorry, but I think adoption is a wonderful gift to the child.

By giving the child up for adoption, it totally erases all the stigma and the drama of being the oc. Instead of being the result of a nasty little secret, the child is raised with 100% acceptance and love. No drama and all the ugliness of affairs and whores and liars.

I think this is where fathers lose their rights and it is unfair. The woman has far to much power, NTMO even states that she chose to keep her baby, no matter what the father wishes. Sure, it is typical for OW to say that MM should have kept his pants zipped. But should the woman not kept her knees together? Then the ow is out screaming for child support and how this man had better be a father to this baby. Totally forgetting that he never wanted the child in the first place.

The outrage is so ridiculas from an ow. So now we have a child without a father. How sad. The OW like to paint it as the MM is wrong and his wife is wrong, everybody is wrong. Never once admitting that HER CHOICE to keep that child is what created the vacuum in that childs life. Never once realizing that the father and his family are choosing to move on with out ow/oc in their lives, so as not to hurt BW and BC. The price is paid by the oc. Of course the OW want and expect the BW and the BC to just deal with it and all their other simple minded crap they spew.

I think the most selfless thing to do would be to give the child up for adoption. To a family where everyone is happy and excited and full of love and accpetance. Not to be raised as somebodys mistake.

edited to say: sorry but i was caught on fh's sign in name as if all you intellectuals haven't figured it oout by now.

i know, i know i am not an OW but i do have a story to relate.

it is amazing to me how many times a seem to alude back to my #1s when comparing lifes experiences to these subjects. but here goes again.

when his mom first told me she was pg we had been dating off and on for some time (years). she had already had an abortion when she was 16 (mine). that was back in the late 60's when abortion was quite hush hush. anyway, we continued dating trying to figure out who we each were, what we wanted in our own lives, and being so young at the time whether we even wanted to be with each other. lots of attractive meat out there on both sides of the coin. she apparently decided she had come to her conclusion about where she wanted to be and instead of talking to me about it she was going to surprise me with a little one so we could start our family together. and YES birth control was discussed regularly and i was assured things were ok. after all we had been sexually active for some years with no mishaps so why not trust her now? i know again, stupid me. anyhow when she told me i relized that she didn't really care what i wanted and it was all about what she wanted. so i said goodbye to her. then i met fh and our story is history. but about the abandonment. my attitude was that i was not going to be in the childs life. my thoughts were that since she was so young and attractive (definately not in fh's eyes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) she would find someone else to be with her and they would raise 31s in a solid 2 parent household. i was not trying to abandon him in my thinking just let him know one dad and not have to deal with the back and forth crap of a 2 household family.

obviously i am happy the way things turned out.

you see i had dated another girl that was divorced with 1 son and knew that if her and i worked out i would have raised him as my own.

HUGE SIDE NOTE HERE--- FH I AM SORRY IF THIS BRINGS BACK ANY UNPLEASENT MEMORIES FOR YOU. I AM JUST TRYING TO PLACE ANOTHER VIEWPOINT ABOUT THIS SUBJECT.

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: full house ]</small>

I think like all other topics that involves such a sensitive nature, There are many answers and there is no one right answer.
I have an adopted child and consider her a gift. I also have a child from a mm.I consider her a gift as well. I am also married. However when I became pregnant, I had been in an affair for many years. I believed he had had a vasectomy and somewhere after half a dozen or so years we stopped using protection. He assured me he had a vasectomy and it was fine, Come to find out that wasnt true he had lied! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Now I find it funny I believed he wouldnt lie to me. he knew i could become pregnant and did every thing to make sure that could happen, I believed (foolishly) I could not, I thought because he had had a vasectomy and was 2o something years older, i was safe. I was a fool and wrong! I shall take my responsibility. I am equally guilty, Being stupid doesnt give me an out.

So I get pregnant, He panicked, left me, His wife told him she would take him for every thing he had if he saw that baby or me again!, He ran like a coward. Yes I say coward, because the week before he was picking out baby names and sharing with all of our co workers and friends. Remember this wasnt exactly a one night stand.

a week after she was born he changed his mind and has been in our lives pretty much every day for the last few years.
He had asked me to give her up while I was pregnant, I refused. he asked me to abort, I refused, not because I am a fanatic, i am a firm believer in a womans right to choose, I just would not choose that option for my self., he now tells me he was a coward and a foolish man and he is so gratefull I did not listen to him.

I never asked for money or for him to be in my childs life, he chose that of his own free will, i didnt take him to court, still havent, I let him pay what he wants, still do. I would have provided for my child no matter who was in her life. It wasnt even something I had to think about, after all she is my baby too.

I think women consider the man a coward, because usually the man has spent alot of time lying and making the ow believe stuff she is hurt. Just like the majority of bs think ow is a bad mother and using her child for a pawn, when she may very well be a concerned parent, and worried about her child. Being over protective is not a crime, and frankly it takes some doing to get used to this sharing idea! Of course it is something you have to deal with, but it is still difficult. In time it becomes easier.

Think about if you have dropped your kid off at daycare and she screams hysterically, Your heart breaks and you worry, same thing if someone picks up your child and she cries still hurts.

I think it helps if we try and understand all sides of this situation.


Sorry I am rambling. Answer to your question. I think all parties have a right to decide what to do. I personally would not want someone who did not want to be around my child, as most mothers would not. the only reason om and I both agreed he was a coward was because of the years involved and his lying about the vasectomy, He wanted a child, just panicked when it happened.

However if he had left and I never heard from him again , I would have left it like that and never ever picked up the phone. Not once.

lynng

you paint such a dreary picture. I dont think it all ends up this way. I am pretty darn happy. My husband and I have worked hard on our marriage, and are doing well, We have a beautiful family great kids, They are all a blessing, I cant imagine life with out them. My "mistake" to quote you is an amazing child. One that OM , His wife , My husband And I love to pieces.
So to you a mistake, To me a child of God , One whom I love dearly.
We all take pride in the kids all of them and there accomplishments. Whether it is the oldest graduating, or the youngest learning her abc's.

She has no stigma unless we give it to her. Her siblings love her, including the ones my age. They are not negative and love showing her off to family and friends, as all big brothers and sisters do.

Life is what you make of it lynn, If you make it a negative experience it will be. I didnt say all of these situations work out, but I dont believe they all fail either. Your doom and gloom philosophy isnt exactly accurate.

I think giving a child up is a personal choice. As for abandoning a child, I guess thats also a personal choice.

My H has an OC. Bascially H is to busy to have his son in his life. H treats OC the same he treats the rest of the kids. When ever he can make time. I resent H for the way he treats all the children, but also for not being more involved with OC. I have done my best to make sure the kids know their brother and have frequent visits with OC and his family.

On the other hand, Xmm has wanted both the kids we have from day one. Never did I get the abortion/adoption talk from him. He wanted me to leave my marriage and be with him. He let his w divorce him to show me how he wants to be with me. I refused. He still lives with his W (xw). I have never forced the kids on him or taking him to court. He has taken me to court to get rights. Which he lost. Xmm takes the kids once a week to his place, his W leaves during the visits cause she can't handle the kids. This is all Xmm choice.

adoption/abandonment, each case is different. Some cases are for selfish reasons, others are doing what they see best for the child. I refuse to judge any here for what they chose

Main Entry: 1aban·don
Pronunciation: &-'ban-d&n
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English abandounen, from Middle French abandoner, from abandon, n., surrender, from a bandon in one's power
1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in
2 : to withdraw from often in the face of danger or encroachment <abandon ship>
3 : to withdraw protection, support, or help from
4 : to give (oneself) over unrestrainedly
5 a : to cease from maintaining, practicing, or using <abandoned their native language> b : to cease intending or attempting to perform <abandoned the escape>
- aban·don·er noun
- aban·don·ment /-d&n-m&nt/ noun
synonyms ABANDON, DESERT, FORSAKE mean to leave without intending to return. ABANDON suggests that the thing or person left may be helpless without protection <abandoned children>. DESERT implies that the object left may be weakened but not destroyed by one's absence <a deserted town>. FORSAKE suggests an action more likely to bring impoverishment or bereavement to that which is forsaken than its exposure to physical dangers <a forsaken lover>. synonym see in addition RELINQUISH

This is the definition that I found from Webster's Merriam Dictionary....
In my humble opinion, to abandon someone means to leave them without protection etc. and our court system doesn't allow that!

Abandonment to me, implies having some form of relationship and attachment to the said child before just 'up and leaving'...my father did that to me when he divorced my mother. He ABANDONED me.

As in our particular case, my husband was straight up with the ex-ow about what he wanted to do...adoption. She didn't want to adopt the child out, telling him "you will change your mind and leave your wife and children and become a family with me and oc" (I've read the notes she sent etc. so I know those were her thoughts and not some ex-mm crap to keep me on a leash)

To us, this is what my husband essentially did:
1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in

Essentially he signed sole care and custody over to ex-ow yet we still pay child support and full medical until said child is 18...I hardly find that to be abandonment.

If you want to call my husband a 'desserter' than so be it. He didn't abandon anyone.

Those are my thoughts and my situation. I do understand that some ex-mm continue to sneak and see ow's and oc's on the sly...there are many different situations and things and not all are one size fits all.

But my husband is not an abandoner...if he abandoned anyone, it would be me while his fling was going on. He abandoned his vows to me and our children.

just my thoughts and my situation...

Twiisty

[QUOTE]Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB] I'll answer this the best I can. The way I see it is if a woman gives up a child for adoption and she is unable to care for this child, love, finances, stability, etc., and/or is very young and has not really started to build a life I don't feel that is selfish, in fact I think it's a very selfless act.

=^^= OK...let's just adjust this a little using XMM as the subject here. Here are your words with some interjection....

"The way I see it is if a woman (Married Man) gives up a child for adoption and he is unable to care for this child, love, finances, stability, etc., (or already has a wife and children and is already otherwise engaged) and/or is very young (or old) and has not really started to build a life (or can't afford to save for retirement), I don't feel that is selfish, in fact I think it is a very selfless act (to let OW raise OC without interference or allow another childless couple adopt OC)"

He also had a choice of birth control and what we did.

=^^= True. But men in the throes of infidelity are usually in it just for themselves and for the thrill. They are like dogs in heat and they are gambling that nothing will happen because they are selfish and stupid and just in it for that momentary involuntary muscle spasm and the momentary euphoria. It could be anybody or anything that provides that cheap thrill. It is up to the woman to rejct a MM advances...unfortunately, most OW are happy to accept ANY attention from ANY where and will settle for a MM otherwise occupied and engaged in another relationship. For just a brief time, OW can "feel" that she is superior to another woman even if it is a false illusion. For just a brief time, OW can pretend that she has been chosen over another because she is so dang desireable when in reality, most of the time, it is the thrill of having a little strange on the side...and it could be anybody, which makes it not so special at all.

When MM goes out to scout around for a thrill on the side, it is usually because something is lacking within him and he has a need for ego gratification, validation, whatever. Men are not looking to build a relationship with some OW unless it is an "exit affair" and then again, it could be anybody. He certainly isn't worrying about, thinking about or desiring a OC...tht's the LAST thing he wants. So why is it so bad for him not to want OC and wish it put up for adoption when it is apparent that WS/XMM isn't inspired to turn his life upside down and inside out for a child he never expected to have? Wouldn't adoption in this case be the best thing for the OC?

He also had a 13 month relationship with me and it was not a one night stand.

=^^= That should tell you that he was only in the relationship for fun and frolic because now that there is an OC, the relationship has ended. What makes OW think that XMM will leave his life for them? As long as the fun and frolic continues with no complications, then an affair will last longer. As soon as the cold hard reality hits, they hit the road.

He was never told not to use condoms.

=^^= But did you ever insist he use them???? And you're the one with all the power. If you said NO to a sexual relationship, he'd either have to take it elsewhere...or maybe even home.

To willing not want to have contact is abondantment in my eyes.

=^^= In YOUR eyes and the eyes of the other OW this is your POV. But according to the courts across the country, if he is paying CS, he has NOT abandoned OC.

It's a choice they make, and yes I do feel it's to make there life easier and less conflict.

=^^= Of course! Who wants conflict? And who doesn't want to make their lives easier? Especially if the existence of the OC causes his BW and BC extraordinary emotional distress and financial ruin?

I'm sorry but that is how I feel.

=^^= And you are entitled to your feelings even if it is emotionally based and unrealistic. It's an emotional situation with conflicting emotions.

Most men are conflict avoiders.

=^^= It's just they way they are built and nothing any of us say or do will ever change that. There are a few rare exceptions, but I agree with you on this one.

I know xmm has not faced the truth of our relationship with me or his wife.

=^^= That's standard issue. That is what an affair is...deceit. To expect him to be honest NOW after 13 months of deceit is incongruent and unrelaistic and kind of silly because he ain't about to change his MO. He's probably scared and desperate now that he might lose everything meaningful to him because of his lying and self interests.

He would want this all to go away and his answer would be to get rid of the problem.

=^^= Of course! Who wouldn't? This is a terrible situation for everyone effected to be in and it's all because of a desire to have excitement, validation, ego stroking or whatever. He wasn't bargaining on a child, of all things! Just like people don't bargain on aids or social diseases, crabs when they screw around. People are stupid and careless and then when a child is brought into the world under these circumstances, an innocent little person suffers and usually is sentenced to a life without a dad unless the mother finds someone decent and caring...and available!

I know that the ow/xow is the horror and most of the blame is put there.

=^^= Not true! Not true in the least. The only thing the OW IS responsible for, is allowing the A to begin with (becasue SHE has the power) and consenting to unprotected sex with someone who is married with children who will be hurt, and not caring. The WS is the one who bears the brunt of the blame and this is dealt with at home after D-day which none of you OW have any idea of what goes on and if you did, you people wouldn't go on and on about things you know nothing about that make you look silly...like saying that we make "excuses" for MM. Does it look like I have taken any heat off MM here? I think not. But then, OW read what they want and have their own myopic POV while consistently misquoting, misjudging and then holding US resposnbile for our husband's decisions. I mean, the HATE I read on TOW against BW and the constant bashing is testimony that not only do you all hate BW, but blame her and hold her responsible despite your declarations to the contrary....actions speak far louder than words.

But really take away the fact that she was involved with a mm for a moment. Lets say you got pregnant with uh, or any man. You are the age you are now, and have your life in order and kids in place etc. How can you say it would be that easy to just give up that child? Are you going to take that easy road out just to not have to deal with it? Or are you going to do what it takes?

=^^= I gave up a child at 19 and it was the hardest thing I ever endured so to say it was taking the easy way out is the most preposterous and insensitive thing I have ever heard. My bio-son was raised by two wonderful people who adored him and provided for him a stable and loving home. Something I was unable to offer him. Had he been born five years later, it might have been different, but I couldn't expect my child to suffer and do without because of what I wanted or MY desires. My life was chaotic and an enormous mess back then and there were extenuating circumstances that would have caused him immense unhappiness and instability. I gave my son a gift. For 18 years I absorbed the sorrow and pain of my decision because it wasn't about me or what I wanted or what I could take or not take, it was about what was best for him. In hindsight I see I made the right decision for him. It was MY problem, MY repsonsiblity, MY own doings...my logical consequences and I just sucked it up. The "dad" was not worthy of any of us. I saw the bio dad for the first time in 25 years at a auto parts store last month when I went to get a tailight lens for my car. I was standing at the counter reading a list for my part number and he walked up to me and said "Catnip...wow, if I knew you were going to still look like this back then..." I said, "For God's sake. Stop right there. Don't say a word...just get me part #xxx." He went to get my lens and came back with pictures of his "kids". He stood there all proud and bragging about his two pathetic weiner dogs. THIS is what he loves and is proud of. He never asked about his son (knowing I have contact now) but went on and on about these idiotic dogs. I said..."They're short. Like you. I heard people eventually resemble their dog." Then I laughed and winked like I was kidding and he laughed too, like he didn't catch the insult. I was soooo glad he was never the influence in my son's life and that I had the foresight to give my child to a home where the father was mature, involved, selfless and caring. However, I did not know what my son's adoptive parents were like until he was 18 and I met all of them, so for 18 years I lived in the agony of not knowing and worrying. But, God blessed me with contact at 18 and having all my fears resolved.

I think if most of the woman here were faced in simular situations they would just NOT give that child up, and would expect the father of the child to pay his "FAIR" share of cs.

=^^= Well, now, this is where I get confused. What exactly do OW want and expect? We always get all these conflicting messages from you people. CS is paid most of the time, and pretty healthy CS, too. So what are we crying about here? CS or Contact? It all gets so muddy. What can you reasonably expect from a XMM with a WIFE and with CHILDREN that you never considered while in the throes of your A with him? Is he supposed to inconvenience his wife and cause her even more distress because YOU demand contact with your OC despite the trauma to his Wife and Children? Isn't the enormous financial hardship to her and the kdis enough for you people? Isn't disrupting their one life enough for you? Do you ahve to insist that they icorporate a OC into their lives and expect them to absorb the humiliation and embarrassment of it all too? Why can't they just get on with their lives qand you get on with yours? You both phuqued up so lets' just cut all losses, be happy with the bucks and find a stabel SG to be daddy and spouse...these are the consequences of your actions so suck it up. Why should the W just suck it up and accept contact simply becuase she wants to keep what is rightfully hers anyway? Is it that piece of paper thingy again? Or the hypocritical Christian thingy again? Or the cult thingy again or any of the other ridiculous and mindless charges that are constantly filed against us on TOW? I read these charges against the BW and go back to try to find evidence of it and can only find maybe one or two isolated examples out of forty people and wonder what's up with that? You people are just dying to indict us on something, anything, to justify and bolster your idealogue. And it is so assinine.

Once again, all your OW are bashing the BW (the wrong person) and trying to force or shame her into contact (which you really don't want to happen with her anyway)...when this incredible outrage of yours should be addressed to XMM. But, then, XMM are conflict avoiders and don't post here...so I guess I can see your frustration of not being able to reach him and spew at him for fear of a restraining order or something.

So many opinions and so much vitriole...it's sad that your TOW people can't be a little kinder and more understanding and empathetic to the BW's feelings...but then, you don't care, never cared...so why expect this consideration from BW's when you are so unwilling to offer it to them? After all, you all threw the first punch.

True. But men in the throes of infidelity are usually in it just for themselves and for the thrill. They are like dogs in heat and they are gambling that nothing will happen because they are selfish and stupid and just in it for that momentary involuntary muscle spasm and the momentary euphoria. It could be anybody or anything that provides that cheap thrill. It is up to the woman to rejct a MM advances...unfortunately, most OW are happy to accept ANY attention from ANY where and will settle for a MM otherwise occupied and engaged in another relationship. For just a brief time, OW can "feel" that she is superior to another woman even if it is a false illusion. For just a brief time, OW can pretend that she has been chosen over another because she is so dang desireable when in reality, most of the time, it is the thrill of having a little strange on the side...and it could be anybody, which makes it not so special at all.


haha What a way with words you have catnip.. funny I never looked at myself that way, as I never ever in my life had had an affair before this time. Infact I would have described an ow just as you did, Untill i became one, Only difference is, I was married als and I was the one with young children at home and he wanted me to give up my husband and children if needed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But I shall ask my usband if he thinks of himself as a dog in heat ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> although I know X-mm's answer he would be offended!

Don't know which catagory you would place me, but I have been in the birth mother's shoes, and the xMOW's shoes! Now, I have never felt selfish for the baby we gave up for adoption years ago, as the baby was being placed in a home that could not only love, but support her. We were way too young, and as other's have said, it's not fair to the grandparents to put them in "parent" mode again, till we can "handle" or "deal" with the child on our own.

As for the xMOW side of it, I DID think of both abortion and adoption before we decided to raise Abbi as our own. The abortion was only for maybe an hour, as God had His hand in how that turned out. Adoption was the next decision we wrestled with. I was more than willing to give Abbi up for adoption, even though I knew how difficult it would be! I actually left the decision up to Sailorman, as he would be the one having to deal with the emotions of raising another man's child. Well, we are now almost 4 yrs post D-day, and have NEVER had a DNA test, and Sailorman doesn't care! He is Abbi's Daddy, and that's all that matters!

Now, some of you may say that I wasn't being fair to xOM, but he could have done the research to see if I'd actually gotten P or not, and according to the state law, if he didn't file a claim w/in a certain time period, he's lost any and all claims he could have ever had for Abbi. Do I feel bad, NO, and I never will.

Most of you know of the violence that xOM had, and that's one of the biggest reasons for never telling him. The other is that we never wanted him in our lives, violence or not! From experience, cutting contact w/the OP is the BEST way to end the A, and not get stuck in it again! If you continue to have that contact, there's always that sliver of history that you had w/the OP! Heck, Sailorman and I even promised eachother that we would stay away from forming any friendships with someone of the opposite sex! And, for those of you who think that it doesn't work, it sure has for us. We still have issues that we are dealing with, but we are not taking those to the "friends" that got us in trouble in the first place! We are talking openly with eachother, and that helps us to get closer than we ever were before.

As for the actual first question asked here, I feel that adoption and what many have claimed is abandonment are actually the same thing! I don't think that if the MM or even OM is paying child support that he is abandoning the child! Why, because if they are paying child support, they are SUPPORTING the child! You can't force parenthood on anyone, be it male or female! If a man doesn't want to be involved in the child's life, for whatever reason, but is paying the CS that is no way abandonment! To try to force visitation, because you want a father for your child, is wrong for the man and for the child! If you could force parenthood, don't you think that the judges and courts would inforce visitation on the man who doesn't want the visitation? Just like if they don't pay CS, they can be put in jail or other such punishments? They don't do that, because the courts can't force it on ANYONE!

Yes, in some cases, the MM does sneak around, but in the majority of the cases here they are working on their M's and the last thing they want to do is destroy what they have so recently rebuilt. Just as the BW's here need to remember that their stories are each unique, so do the OW who post or lurk on this board. If you try to force someone to do something, you generally receive the opposite of the desired results. If you work together, to reach a mutual agreement, generally the desired results is either met, or altered by that mutual agreement. That is just common sense! It works no matter what the situation is. If you are at eachother's throats or at opposite ends of the choice, how could anything ever work?

So, if the parties involved with the OC can't agree on the majority of choices involved with contact, wouldn't it be better for the OC, especially if the MM can't give the child the time that child deserves, if the MM and his W do not have contact? Couldn't it harm the child MORE so if the contact was constantly wraught with tension, fighting, or other not so obvious problems? If the mother of a child is so concerned about how the child grows up, don't you think that mother would willingly allow such situations to be avoided at all costs? If so, how could you call a man who in many ways IS looking out for the best interests of the child by NOT having contact, but still providing the CS, a deadbeat dad or claim that he is abandoning said child? What about the children who are already in the M? Just as the OW is looking out for her child, so is the W and often times MM looking out for their children!

I think that as with everything, each situation is unique, but I feel that if the MM is providing CS, and has not had contact w/the OC he is NOT abandoning the OC.

Now, if the MM has had contact, has been paying CS and then, he decides that contact isn't for him(now I'm talking years of "co-parenting" and the OC has bonded w/MM) and just drops the contact, that could be considered abandonment. But, if it's the case where the BW finds out years down the road of the OC, and the MM has been having contact, but hiding it from the BW and the rest of his family, if the W feels the need to repair their M, and the OW demands to continue to be involved w/visitation w/only the MM, the BW has every right to have that type of visitation stopped! But, some sort of visitation including the BW should be worked out! But, the OW should realize what a devastating situation the BW has just been forced into!

I don't feel that demands are the way to go in ANY situation, as it just automatically puts someone on the defensive to demand anything. But, if you can sit down and discuss the situation calmly, a mutually acceptable choice will be made. AND, any decision made in the marriage comes above and beyond any outside influance! Vows in a marriage are made infront of witnesses, vows in an A are made in secret. So, in my eyes, the marriage vows transcend any other secret vows. Yes, I broke my vows, but have re-dedicated to those vows, and now have accountablity.

Now, I know that I rambled, but I stand by what I have written, and hope that I made sense.

Just my $0.02

Tigger

My x-om was informed of the P. Left any and all decisions to me, promising never to re-enter my life again. Then left, and never looked back. I do not consider him an abandoner. My H has chosen to be and is this baby's father. If my H were to all of a sudden leave, and turn his back on our child, I would consider it abandonment. To leave a child in which there is an established relationship with, is abandonment, in my eyes. As I see it, MM who who never had contact with OC, but paid CS, if needed, as required by law, did not abandon OC.

As for adoption, whether it's decided upon for all the "right" reasons, or all the "wrong" reasons, what does it matter? As long as it's all legal, and the couple adopting the child can provide a loving, stable, 2 parent home, I say that's wonderful!

you summed it up well, tigger4jdt.

good job.

ahhh, i think i have this log in name stuff straightened out again.

my #1s has a very close friend that went thru hs with him. his buddy (lets call him joe) dated the same girl for almost 4 years. she became pg and when the baby was born decided she wasn't ready to settle down and was gone.

now this woman could have easily lied to all and claimed that she didn't know who the father was and place the child for adoption. but instead she was honest with joe and told him she didn't want anything to do with the baby.

well joe is raising his son alone. and doing a prety good job of it i might add. the question is did the mom abandon the baby? in my opinion NO. she let her views be known and never formed a relationship with the child. she left and has no plans of coming back.

would that boy be better off in a 2 parent house? i don't see how he could be more loved or better taken care of.

we as adults should never place any STIGMA on ANY child. this is the year 2004 NOT 1804 where a [censored] child was looked down upon. and if you look back in history it wasn't the child in 1804 who was born saying i am a [censored]. it was the ADULTS who knew the facts that so labeled that child.

i would and will never say to grace that her mother was a whore and her father was a sneaky chicken s#!t coward. she will simply know that her mother loved her with all her heart.

and for those of you that think there is no excuse for pregnancy in this day and age fh and i have a beautuful 9 year old on april 1 who was concieved while i we were using condoms. it broke. i know there was no A but the point is that we niether of us wanted anymore kids and we were using b-control and that no system is 100% except abstinance.

i hope those participating in this thread can stay focused on the initial question and let it slide into the gutter with name calling and cheesy referrals to whores and liars.

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>
catnip.. funny I never looked at myself that way, as I never ever in my life had had an affair before this time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= MOF....I think of you as a Former Wayward Spouse and as for my previous comments, they were not intended for anyone specifically...just in general...and I certainly did not mean you or yours. I am sorry if you took it personally. You have an e-mail heading your way.

Hi,
Just wanted to add my .02...

I think when a woman gives a baby up for adoption, she is abandoning herself to the strengths of the adoptive parents and the stability that they can offer the child, regardless if the child is from an affair or just unplanned, unnamed and/or unwanted.

I think it is human nature for all of us to deal with abandonment issues at some point in our lives, whether it's real or imagined. It's just part of life on earth, regardless...

Giving a baby up for adoption is no guarantee that the adoptive parents will remain married either, so that's another aspect to consider.

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

What I am saying is the mother can give up her rights- but the father has to be notified in order for his decision of keeping the child or giving up his rights also for adoption.
If one parent decides to keep the child and the other one doesnt want it, the parent that doesnt want it has the right to stay out of that childs life physically and emotionally, but regardless of that choice whether it be the mother or father- if they think the child will need help financially, then the parents(both) are responsible.
Yes giving a child to a couple who cant have any is wonderful. As for the stigma- thats what you put on your child. My child does not live with any nasty secret. It is all out in the open-clearly, no secrets- no dirt to dig. 100% love and acceptance-no drama -no ugliness here. Whores and liars--I havent seen any- or is that what the men are called these days? (only kidding , just trying to make light of an ugly statement--please dont fuel your fires with this.)
My child has a wonderful daddy. No vacumn in my childs life- alot of dirt(she loves to dig in the garden-most of it ends up on her head)
It would of been nice if om and family chose to move on. But they didnt. i would never call a child a mistake- God knows this child- he doesnt make mistakes. And yes some people want easy answers for themselves.

And to the statement "now that there is an oc, the relationship has ended" I ended it-my choice-he wanted to keep it going-have his little family on the side-to this day I know he would start our relationship up again if I would agree. It was not all sex (very little really)like you would like to think-we had a so called normal relationship(normal if we both werent married) we worked together, shopped together, went to the gym, had meals together,became good friends, etc....It was a wrong choice. (not to hurt pops with any of this) but om was proud of oc and still is. I never wanted him to leave his marriage, I know that it was a relationship that had gotten out of control, even though he asked if i would leave mine. My answer was no.
I agree with the point if he is paying cs-he has taken his responsibility. This i never wanted-so my views are some what different i guess. I would have gladly let him slip out of the picture completely, I guess that would have been my easy way out.
You dont think I understand any of the pain that the bw and family is going through or dealt with. I saw my own bs go through it so dont say I dont understand. I live with the pain of what i did everyday and forever. I never said anything against om's bw, i would never inflict more on someone after all that has happened. I do understand. I dont understand the statement about the "first punch"? explain please?
I did 30 years ago have an abortion, I was young and stupid and didnt want to burden anyone, I have regretted it for 30 years, how I wish I was strong enough to keep that child, I miss everyday. I hate it when someone tries to express their feelings and views about their life --no one elses and everyone attacks. No one listens, no one says ok, this is what this person is going through, its always a personal attack on someone. These are my feelings, my views, no one elses, this is my answers for my life, not yours, it may help someone else to see how i am dealing with life and it may help no one. Are we not all here to express, hopefully to repair our lives. So why is there always someone jumping in and calling people such hateful horrible names, when each person is and individual going through their own seperate situation and pain. why does your pain put so much hate on everyone you categorize in to one lump. I am so sorry about your pain, i am so sorry about the pain everyone deals with, I am so sorry about the pain i live with. can we not start reaching out and share instead of condemning everyone....sorry that i am blabbing away ...i am not doing well....and started reading again to look for answers, but it still seems there is so much hate, and i dont understand how this can help anyone. sorry

I am sorry if my post above sounds like it is jumping from one thing to another, i was reading the whole thread and commenting on everything that hit my little brain

Full House

I thik your post made alot of sense. And its weird how our situations are similar. I to ended my affair and wish that Xmm would disappear. But he wants to be pat of his childrens life and I don't feel right denying him that. The only difference is you have an H that loves you dearly and is doing his best to make the marriage work.

Best of luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Crazymum:
<strong> Will they let him sign away his rights? From what I understand is that he can't do that unless someone is stepping up to adopt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not so, I was married very young ( 18 ) My husband at the time left me and my son .. he called one day and said, " I am not ready to be a father". I said fine. I had his parental rights terminated as a single mother with no one planning to adopt my son. He did not contest it, the judge granted the termination. The thing that sucks though, is not that I thought it was an issue back then because I was young and thought I was Super Woman, is that with termination you dont get child support. Nor does my child have any rights to inheritance.

Now my son is 16 years old and it is tough financially. i sometimes wish I didnt terminate the rights, sometimes due to the issue of CS, it was my pride in the way. But all this time even though I didnt want his help financially, I could have been putting that money away for my son for college or something. I have cheated my son out of something. But At least I dont have to deal with all the baby's daddy drama.

You see, this was MY HUSBAND (at the time), it really doesnt matter , but basically him being a dad was cramping his "style" . We have not heard from him to this day.


Oh yes so you can terminate parental rights on grounds of abandonment.


So the difference in my eyes, is he did the equivalent of "giving his child up for adoption" , but not because the child would be better off, he did so because he was SELFISH and didnt want to change his LIFESTYLE.
( I did run into him once... he was driving a new Porsche... I was on my way to apply for legal assistance at the time, realize it took me 3 years to find this man after the phone call)

Now, had I been some drug adicted crack-wh*re who sleep with 20 guys one night and didnt know who the father was, lets say I was homeless, then giving a child up for adoption would be an appropriate and RESPONSIBLE choice because in that case I would not be able to provide a SAFE environmant for my child.

BUT if I rather give up my kid for adoption than trade in my new Porsche... well THAT is IRRESPONSIBLE and abandonment IMHO.


And ya know even if I was in a situation where I had to choose adoption, I would prefer an open adoption in which the adoptive parents would allow me contact in some way, at least to know that my child was doing well etc...

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: nycmedic ]</small>

FH

We don't hear from you very often. This is NOT about you or your situation. Not once did I ever think of you, refer to you or consider you in my post. I speak entirely in generalities, directing my not so subtle POV to the OW who accuse us of gearing up to torture an adult OC (for God's sake), OW who mock Christ and Christians as if believing in God is somehow uncool nd weak and accusing of BW "hiding" behind the Scriptures, calling us cultists and Bible thumpers simply because the pain is so great, we turn to God for help because there is nowhere else to turn in the beginning.

What is wrong with these people? Why are they so incredibly poisoned with hate, vengeance and bitterness for the BW? What did any BW ever do to them that could compare on any level to what the OW did to the BW? If the OW intruded herself into the BW's life by screwing her husband, then she threw the first punch...do you understand the analogy now?

They (OW) on TOW claim they don't care a whit about the XMM, they obviously don't want anything we have, so why do they constantly attack the BW? I don't get it. They (OW) get hundreds or thousands of dollars every month from BW's who never knew they existed, who are suddenly suffering financially (you'd think that alone would make them cheer with glee and vindicate them!) and claim that's all they want, then cry about no Contact and call BW and XMM disgusting names for taking the time necessary to repair the marriage, yet refuse to take responsibility for what they have done, the plight of their own lives and that their own actions have caused OC hardship and an absent parent by choosing a MM over a SG to father their child.

They (OW) refuse to accept responsibility for orchestrating their own misery. And they are angry at the BW and complain to her and try to shame her! Of all people! As if this is HER problem, for God's sake. Why should any BW care about the OC? She is not obliged to do so, even if she does care for the child. It ain't her problem...except to suffer financially...which is a problem that came out of nowhere and was laid at her feet--how fair is that?

Most BW's have to watch their own kids go without because of OW and WS. But do the OW care? Not one little bit. Never did and never will. Not one bit. It's that same selfishness that allowed them to do what they did to ruin the BW and BC lives to begin with. They just didn't care. Still don't. Yet, we are expected to care about them and their OC. Incredible. In fact, they (OW) expect that the BW should accept OC if she wants to restore her marriage...like it comes with the territory, saying that the WS is not the same man. (I say, Thank God)

According to the OW, a person's fall from grace morphs them into someone else entirely. By that logic, the same applies to the OW. They are not the same person either, and have eroded into self-serving, heartless wenches, expecting a whole lot from their victim for a lot of BW heartache in return. Does that make any sense to anyone? What is even more ridiculous is that OW really doesn't want BW to develope a close and loving relatiosnhip with her OC and would be threatened beyond belief if a relationship would develop, concocting intircate rules as evidenced here, time after time, after time.

These are truths. I'm not making this stuff up. Sure, they are generalities, but they are evidenced here and on TOW over and over and over and over again.

My posts are directed at those OW's who belittle someone's faith, accuse us of being capable of inflicting disgraceful hurt onto an innocent party, an adult OC, as if we are capable of such horrors after what BW's have endured. THEY (OW) are the only ones capable of inflicting extraordinary pain onto an innocent bystander. BW's know first hand what it is like to absorb immense pain from a stranger. Therefore, it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for a BW to inflict pain or verbally beat up an OC (adult or otherwise) or be insensitive to him/her.

None of my remarks are directed to any Former Wayward Spouses-like you- who are working on their marriage! I understand your unique position and do not lump you in with the ones I am referring to.

OW who delight in BW pain, who accuse BW of attacking and torturing an adult OC, who minimize the marriage commitment and laugh at us for believing in God or being of a Christian faith (like most people are), hit us like this below the belt and fight unfairly because they don't have concrete, actual and authentic complaints about the BW other than nebulous and innaccurate accusations. Most of all, I hate the Christ and Christian bashing because it is meant to insult and demean the one thing that is profoundly all encompassing in all our lives.

I am a fallen Catholic and I don't gather with others in prayer but I pray and I believe. I am too sinful and angry to gain much favor with God, but I deeply believe in Him and I can't stand to listen to people bad-mouth Newbies in pain for clinging to the one thing that gives them some measure of peace and comfort in their immeasurable pain. And if the nest of vipers on TOW are attacking and mocking Newbies for finding God by shaming them in someway into feeling foolish by clinging to the Bible during their terrible times, borne of people like them who caused (in part) their suffering, then I think they have to be the most hideous and disgusting people who ever lived.

My comments are directed to OW who are grossly disrespectful, stupid beyond belief, who are the most bitter, the most hateful, the most mean spirited, unempathetic bytches imaginable. And I am mad as hell right now.

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

catnip

I am not offended. I understand all those feelings. I cant say for sure, but I would bet om's wife feels and says alot of the same things the bs's on here say. Would be normal for her to. She doesnt say i am a bad mother, Because she knows better. but she does have hate and contempt for me. You can be sure and I think thats ok, she is able for the most part to keep it to her self or vent to her husband. But we still have a goal we work on together and that is , She chose to be in my childs life. I didnt ask, nor did I ask for money. I ,like most here would have been ok if they dissapeared into oblivion. But OM decided he wanted to help me raise our child . So here we are.

Truth be told I envy those who are able to walk away with their child and never deal with this again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But I also do not have the right to deny him his rights, because I do believe He has the right to see his child if he wants to and I have a responsibility to make sure it is a positive experience for our child.

but you and I know om tends to be selfish and thinks mostly of himself at all times.

I have a little voice in my head that says MUST BE NICE at all times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There have been some really great responses on here !!!!!
I have to be honest, I haven't read anything that changed my mind but there were some things that made me stop and think.
See how nice it can be when we all play well together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JTigger~

Will you share with us...what is your stance on the subject?

Also, which things made you stop and think?

I liked the question you posed. Very thought provoking.

Thanks!

~ad

catnip said:.............. Why should any BW care about the OC? She is not obliged to do so, even if she does care for the child. It ain't her problem...except to suffer financially...which is a problem that came out of nowhere and was laid at her feet--how fair is that? .................................

because it is a child. and yes we are obligated to care about them as Jesus said bring the children to me.

this does NOT mean that you have to take on the role of the oc's mother. just show compassion for them.

i think that what happens many times in these instances is the same on both sides. in the case of the ow she is hurting because the truth has come out that mm has lied to her and IN HER MIND abandoned her. so she lashes out at the easiest target she sees and that is the bw. the ow's anger is truely at the mm but since he wants nothing to do with her know ow strikes at his bw in an attempt to hurt him.

an example of this is when ow say they don't want bw around their child. this is not really directed at the bw it is an attempt to say they don't want mm around.

in the case of the bw striking back at the ow. i feel that bw's are so hurt and they know that the easiest way to strike back at ow is to treat her oc as if they didn't matter and/or was an insignificant being.

an example here is that when you omit an oc from your will is it to punish oc or ow? (AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT OC MUST BE IN THE WILL. SIBLINGS ARE LEFT OUT OF WILLS AND PROPERTIES DIVIDED UNEVENLY ALL THE TIME) just what is the real intent of this decision.

BOTH outbursts are misquided and off the mark.

believe me i understand what you are saying about dislikeing the ow and your reasons are sound in those instances where they apply. the same way i detest om/mm in situations like my own. if a mm wants to cheat on his w and place his marriage in jeopardy that is a choice he has the right to make. but why in hell doesn't he fool around with one of the millions of single women out there? what gives him the right to ruin a marriage and destroy a family changing the dynamics forever? all for what, a 15 second grunt!! i say this especially in my own case where om knew i was going to mc with fh to try and rebuild our marriage.

the point i am trying to get at is i can't just lump all mm who have become ws's into one category and generalize about them all. to do so would be for me to ignore the specifics of each one of your h's personal reasons for leading them into their A's. that to me would be insulting and belittleing of your h's.

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> I know this question has been asked a thousand times but I have yet to see an answer.
Please explain to me the way you view the difference between a woman putting a child up for adoption and a man walking away from a child.
Why is one abandonment and the other is not ?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It certainly makes you think about it... I think it's the thoughts behind the actions, if that makes sense? I think putting a child up for adoption is one of the most selfless things a mother could do for her child. Could I do it? No. I did think about it though, and thought long and hard about whether my child would be better off with a two parent family, or me. Call me selfish. Do I consider it abandonment that his father chose to walk away after being in his life for a year ? Yes. Some of the OW/xOW I know had pregnancies that were PLANNED. For someone to PLAN a pg and then walk away, is that abandonment? In my book it is. For someone that was in a R (any kind, not just an A) that ended up pg - if that person made it clear from day one that they were not interested in being a parent to that child? Do I consider that abandonment? Not really. They were up front FROM THE BEGINNING. But realities being what they are... These things happen. People have lied. Who KNOWS what the truth is half the time. But the reality is that there are usually two women that are very hurt and trying to rebuild the lives they choose and one man desperately trying to bury his head in the sand so he doesn't have to hear the screaming at both ends. xMM said to me one time that he felt like he was on a train ride and nobody would let him drive or tell him where he was going. He would go "hide" because he knew W was mad at him, I was mad at him, and he just wanted peace and quiet... At this point did I have sympathy for him? hardly...

In my own opinion (just mine - nobody elses), I think that giving a child up for adoption because that is the best thing for ALL involved is a great option. I think giving a child up for adoption because you're forced or berated into it is wrong. Or just because the father doesn't want it. BUT... I'm talking about consenting adults here, not teenagers, victims of rape, etc. Everyone is different. They deal with things differently. What works for me, probably wouldn't work for the woman next door.

Sorry for the noveletta... I can't seem to write short posts here..

***what is your stance on the subject?***

I think adoption is the most selfless act a person can make. And probably the most difficult decision a parent makes.
But....
A parent gives a child up for adoption because for what ever reason at that time in their lives they feel they are unable to or unwilling to parent that child. Is it an easy decision ? NO.
I feel a man walks away from a child because he feels that at that particular time in his life he is unable or unwilling to parent that child. Is it an easy decision ? NO.
I don't see the difference in the two.
I agree with Joshmom. If a man makes it clear from the start that he has NO interest in having a child I don't see how it can be viewd as abandonment. I think it is his right not to be forced into parenthood. I think that it is unrealistic to say to a man.." look, I know you didn't plan on a child and you really don't want one but now that it is here I expect you to put all those feelings behind you and love and parent this child ".
Now, with that being said, I think if a man helped plan a P, or was involved with the child and then walked away because he changed his mind I think that makes him pond scum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> I think if a man helped plan a P, or was involved with the child and then walked away because he changed his mind I think that makes him pond scum. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= Amen. I agree completely. You have offered two logical examples that should be the only criteria constituting abandonment. If the WS/MM did either or both of these things, he is indeed scum. He did indeed abandon.

But, if he made it crystal clear from the beginning he didn't want a child, then it is his right to walk away and just pay support if all the decisions about having and keeping said child has been taken out of his hands and without his consent.

It is troubling that there are so many women out there that are so gullible and naive to believe any MM and get pregnant, plan a pregnancy or allow themselves to get pregnant when they know the person they are fooling around with is married...despite the predictable declarations that MM "is getting divorced" as that phrase is standard issue and has been done to death through the ages and everybody knows it. But I suppose when in the throes of the A, these women think their situation is unique and special and the rules don't apply to them. Then there is the anger and the expectations that never come to fruition and a kid that OW feels guilty about and sees as abandoned. It's so sad.

Cat =^^=

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB]
Some of the OW/xOW I know had pregnancies that were PLANNED.

=^^= Were the MM on board with this planning as well? I know there are some out there I suppose, but I just can't imagine any MM (unless it is an Exit Affair) painting himself into a corner by planning a pregnancy with someone other than spouse while married to spouse...especially if he already has children. I can kind of see it if he has no kids and his spouse is infertile, I suppose, but the decent thing would be to divorce first. I wonder if these men get caught up in the excitement and fantasy of another life with someone else and the unknown possibilities (not realizing it would just be more of the same, different face) and just muse "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we had a kid together"...and then the OW, caught up in her fantasy, sees this as the green light to go ahead and flush those pills down the can. I bet a lot of OW hang on to and translate those off-hand comments as "planning a pregnancy" in their desperation to have a child and jump start their fantasy life and to inspire MM to divorce like he said he would. Then it all prdictably backfires. What a mess.

For someone to PLAN a pg and then walk away, is that abandonment? In my book it is. For someone that was in a R (any kind, not just an A) that ended up pg - if that person made it clear from day one that they were not interested in being a parent to that child? Do I consider that abandonment? Not really. They were up front FROM THE BEGINNING.

=^^= This explanation that both you and Jtigger have given are perhaps the best examples of abandonment I've seen put out there because it clearly states what true abandonment is. Thanks. Let's put that in a rule book somewhere to post when we have these abandonment debates that get so muddy.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>
It is troubling that there are so many women out there that are so gullible and naive to believe any MM and get pregnant, plan a pregnancy or allow themselves to get pregnant when they know the person they are fooling around with is married...despite the predictable declarations that MM "is getting divorced" as that phrase is standard issue and has been done to death through the ages and everybody knows it. But I suppose when in the throes of the A, these women think their situation is unique and special and the rules don't apply to them. Then there is the anger and the expectations that never come to fruition and a kid that OW feels guilty about and sees as abandoned. It's so sad.

Cat =^^= </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When in the throes of the A - I truly "did" believe xMM that our situation WAS unique, special and that he really DID love me like no other. Mea culpa mea culpa... I was young, naive, foolish and didn't know any better. It took a year after having my son that I finally wisened up. Why so long? Who knows... But I DID finally realize what kind of person he truly was. I've talked to a couple of people that were in A's since then, and the first things out of their mouths is "but our situation is different....". My first thoughts? Just wait. You'll see that it's not. I gave a good friend advice one time - told her to tell him that she was pg and see how fast he ran in the other direction and then see how special she is.
That being said... I will never EVER feel guilty about my son. He is the best thing that ever happened to me and will ALWAYS be loved no matter what he does or who he looks like <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I will always feel guilty about my part in the affair, but at this point in my life, it is in my past. Not my present or my future. I take the hard lessons that I've learned into my future, but I'm not bitter because of them, and I don't let them hold me back from living my life the best way I know possible, or being the best parent I can be.
As an aside.... It's "funny" (not ha ha) that all the bickering is done between the OW/xOW and BW/xW and the one person that is TRULY responsible for the whole mess doesn't speak at all. It reminds me of junior high when these two girls used to fight - literally fistfight - over this boy Bobby. What did he do? Let it run it's course, and in the end, he chose who he wanted to be with. But he played the two of them against each other to the HILT. Went out with both of them (not at the same time, though). I think that situation is similar to what happens in real "adult" life too, sadly. And Bobby? Turned out to be an unbelievably nasty man - he married one of the girls (the one that won the most fistfights, I believe) and she was a SAHM, they had 2 girls, and they ended up divorced and they lived in a "good ole' boy" state where he knew a lot of people in the system - he took the girls away from her and left her with nothing. She's spent the years since fighting to get them back. But he had the money, so he continues to win. And where are the girls? With his parents. Because he's remarried, and they interfered with his new life, new wife, and new baby. Probably makes her wish she'd lost a few of those fistfights, huh? What's my point? Awwww, who knows... Just an example of life, I guess.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
[QB] catnip said:.............. Why should any BW care about the OC? She is not obliged to do so, even if she does care for the child. It ain't her problem...except to suffer financially...which is a problem that came out of nowhere and was laid at her feet--how fair is that? .................................

because it is a child. and yes we are obligated to care about them as Jesus said bring the children to me.

=^^= I know it is a child, Pops! A sweet little girl I would love to meet. I think. I am also scared of her. I'd hate to fall in love with her and have OW yank her away, but that is beside the point. What I said initially is TRUE. She is still not my problem ...but it is true that her existence causes me a lot of financial angst. But, ya know, that's OK. I've learned to live with it and cope and I don't begrudge it even if I grumble because I'm uncomfortable and spoiled. But, facts ARE facts...it really ain't my problem or responsibility.

That being said....I adore the kid next door, but he's not my responsibility or problem either except in the sense that as neighbors we watch out for these neighborhood kids, buy cookies from them, but Christmas wreaths from them, donate to their school or scouts and get together for summer neighborhood picnics. They are absolutely precious and I adore each and every one of them. And (shock!!!) they love mean ole Catnip because I am funny and warm and fuss over them. These kids are wonderful gifts from God, charming, hilarious, interesting and it is amazing to watch them grow into teens and beyond and it tugs at the heartstrings. And when I have said in the past that OC is no more important than the kids in the neighborhood, well I think that's pretty important. I just mean, they aren't my direct responsiblity even though we all have a kind of responsibility to look after and care about all the kids. I'm not d'ising the kids or OC in the least...just explaining how a BW might view an OC, especially one she has never met. Meeting and becoming involved with OC is a whole 'nuther ball game entirely. You develop feelings and a relationship, you fall in love with kid and always worry that OW will stop the contact and you're left with yet another loss and heartache. Since you have your Grace living in your home, you are free to love her and not worry about her being whisked away after you've invested so much of your heart.



this does NOT mean that you have to take on the role of the oc's mother. just show compassion for them.

=^^= I do, for crying out loud. Just because I say we are not responsible (true) and it is not our problem (true) does not mean in any way that there is not compassion, care, tender thoughts and wishes that come with that hefty CS. We gotta get you something for that soft heart of yours because it makes you think and act like some of us are abusive or something towards OC.


i think that what happens many times in these instances is the same on both sides. in the case of the ow she is hurting because the truth has come out that mm has lied to her and IN HER MIND abandoned her.

=^^= Undoubtably, Pops, but then...how does a woman like that become so gullible to BELIEVE the cad to begin with? Is she KNOWS he is married, doesn't that wave a red flag, never mind doing the right thing and what is decent...like walk away from the situation...or give the kids of the M some thought or consideration ...like she is demanding from everyone for her OC? While I understand the thought process behind it, I just wonder what they expected or why they thought they were exempt from the obvious outcome of all of it. It has to be supreme ego, incredible selfishness or stupidity to think they were the one exception to the rule and that MM would leave W and BC for her when he already is busy building a life, probably for decades, with someone else. It's not something most men walk away from under any circumstances. Not many men are willing to throw away a whole family for one OW and OC. Besides, during the A, MM/WS was abandoning his W and BC, so the Betrayed know first hand what abandonment feels like. That's why Betrayeds are hard pressed to feel any real empathy for an OW who has calculated and set out to ruin her life and that of her kids...especially when OW are so cantankerous, combative and rude.



so she lashes out at the easiest target she sees and that is the bw. the ow's anger is truely at the mm but since he wants nothing to do with her know ow strikes at his bw in an attempt to hurt him.

=^^= Someone hand me a hankie.


an example of this is when ow say they don't want bw around their child. this is not really directed at the bw it is an attempt to say they don't want mm around.

=^^= I understand this, but then the reverse holds true as well...so therefore, it's a wash.


in the case of the bw striking back at the ow. i feel that bw's are so hurt and they know that the easiest way to strike back at ow is to treat her oc as if they didn't matter and/or was an insignificant being.

=^^= Maybe initially like right after D-day this "might" be true, but it is much bigger and broader than that in my mind. I don't think that any BW does that for those reasons. I think a BW (I'll use me as an example) isn't out to hurt OW and definitely not OC. I never looked for revenge or to cause OW any discomfort or unhappiness. If I did, trust me, I would know how and I would have done it. I am really good at exacting revenge if I want to. Really good. I could have made her life a living hell but I knew she was struggling (well, maybe not struggling with all that cash) to raise that little girl on her own but I didn't want any "upset" to filter down to kid. She is my prime concern. But, compared to my own kids and my own family and the peace within the home and my life as I knew it, I would like to keep that status quo without a lot of drama because life is short and difficult enough and I had no say in any decision. So, in that respect, OC IS secondary to MY family and my kids because I do not know her personally and probably never will because she is a bazillion miles away with a mom who states she just wants money and doesn't want contact. But that's my situation. I think other BW who say OC doesn't matter do not mean that the OC is not worthy of love or a wonderful life, they just mean that OC is no more important than any other kid on their block in the big scheme of things. That always changes if contact can be successfully established. I think what everyone has to do is understand that this child is not related to BW and that any love or bonding has to be allowed by OW in order for this kid to become a part of BW's family.


an example here is that when you omit an oc from your will is it to punish oc or ow?

=^^= God, NO! It is strictly to prevent the anyone...ANYONE...from waltzing in to claim a share of the estate while members of the family are grieving...perhaps from someone no one even knows about. Ya know, Pops...sometimes it has nothing to do with OC or OW and it is just practical stuff and self preservation and not intended to cause insult or injury to anyone else...just protecting one's own assets.



believe me i understand what you are saying about dislikeing the ow and your reasons are sound in those instances where they apply.

=^^= But ya know, it isn't because she banged my husband or any jealousy reasons at all. It's because I found out about the A almost the day it started and I called her. I was so kind to her and I told her how sick my husband was and that he was suffering from mental illness and that I had been trying to get him help. I begged her to please not see him and she was vicious and snarling and threatening to me. She didn't even know him yet and had nothing emotionally invested in him yet and she still went ahead with the affair and within three weeks she was pregnant. The brief A ended with D-day #2 (the pregnancy)...D-day #1 happened as it all happened from the beginning. It was weird watching the A beginning, sustain and then end all within a month and see the wreckage it left in its wake. Here we had a perfect opportunity for preventative measures, doing the right thing, compassion, care, dignity and most of all, honor...and I got threats of a restraining order (on one phone call!!!!) for harassament. My plea was considered harassment. She wanted what she wanted and I didn't matter, my kids didn't matter, our life didn't matter. But that was then...all water under the bridge. My dislike of OW is because she had no heart, no compassion, no honor. I could have changed my position and attitude towards her if she weren't so vindictive, but she acts like this was a long term affair with all the bells and whistles and a lot of emotional investment. Her bitterness and resentment must be incredible because she isn't happy with the $1500 smackers every month...she managed to get a judgment on my husband for arrears that he hs been faithfully paying $200 a month on for three years and that were based on BOTH of our salaries (illegal). She had his DL revoked and I still don't know how she did that except she wasted no time when he was laid off for a couple months and he didn't get a paycheck and the CS was delayed...she marched right down to family court (oxymoron) and had them yank his passport, too. Oh, she's a pip. But I don't have any hate for her, and I neither like nor dislike her...she's just a huge problem (in more ways than one...hahahaha) to my peace of mind at times. She makes me unnecessarily busy chasing my tail trying to get appeals completed and sent in, ringing up attorney fees...ugh. It's the not caring to begin with followed by the intrusions and legal surprises that come out of nowhere like a bolt from the blue.



but why in hell doesn't he fool around with one of the millions of single women out there? what gives him the right to ruin a marriage and destroy a family changing the dynamics forever? all for what, a 15 second grunt!!

=^^= It's that involuntary muscle spasm with some strange for a momentary thrill. And doing it with someone unavailable is a thrill too, because for a moment, one brief moment, they can feel like they have been chosen over someone else and that strokes the ego. It's an illusion, but sometimes when someone doesn't have a lot on the ball, it's enough. It's sad.



i say this especially in my own case where om knew i was going to mc with fh to try and rebuild our marriage.

=^^= It's kind of like my situation too because OW knew my hhusband was mentally ill and needed help and that an A would push him over the edge...and didn't care. Neither of our OP's cared but went ahead anyway with knowledge of the situation.


the point i am trying to get at is i can't just lump all mm who have become ws's into one category and generalize about them all. to do so would be for me to ignore the specifics of each one of your h's personal reasons for leading them into their A's. that to me would be insulting and belittleing of your h's.

=^^= That's true, however, the generalities are there and have been written in psychology books forever as a basic guide to the human psyche. We can all disect our own specific situations with our own special circumstances and find a million reasons "why" just to be fair...but this is not a fair situation and none of us have the time or wherewithall to do so, so on this board, we are stuck with basic generalities that can be rearranged for each of us according to our own special cicrcumstances. We can all take what we like or need and leave the rest and apply it as we see fit.

Cat =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB]
Some of the OW/xOW I know had pregnancies that were PLANNED.

=^^= Were the MM on board with this planning as well? I know there are some out there I suppose, but I just can't imagine any MM (unless it is an Exit Affair) painting himself into a corner by planning a pregnancy with someone other than spouse while married to spouse...especially if he already has children. I can kind of see it if he has no kids and his spouse is infertile, I suppose, but the decent thing would be to divorce first. I wonder if these men get caught up in the excitement and fantasy of another life with someone else and the unknown possibilities (not realizing it would just be more of the same, different face) and just muse "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we had a kid together"...and then the OW, caught up in her fantasy, sees this as the green light to go ahead and flush those pills down the can. I bet a lot of OW hang on to and translate those off-hand comments as "planning a pregnancy" in their desperation to have a child and jump start their fantasy life and to inspire MM to divorce like he said he would. Then it all prdictably backfires. What a mess.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Each situation is unique unto itself
xMM and I talked about having kids one day, what they would look like, etc. But do I consider my son planned with him? No. He was definitely an "oops". Not a mistake by any stretch, an OOPS. And when xMM asked me if I'd change my son's last name to his if we got married? I laughed, knowing at that point that he was full of shyte. I'm talking about PLANNED as in "let's have a baby together". There are plenty of women that have babies to hang onto the life that they have, married women included. How many times do you hear of a W that gets pregnant to hang onto a marriage? I remember there was a BW here a while ago whose H had an OC and she desperately wanted another child. He didn't. She ended up pg. Was that planned by both of them? Was he happy about it?

*edited to fix my italics..

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: JoshMom ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB] When in the throes of the A - I truly "did" believe xMM that our situation WAS unique, special and that he really DID love me like no other. Mea culpa mea culpa... I was young, naive, foolish and didn't know any better.

=^^= Young and foolish is something we all were. When I was married the first time back in the stone age, my husband cheated on me and my response was to cheat back. The marriage lasted a predictable couple years. I was even an OW and didn't know it. We all do stupid things when we are young and learning life's lessons.

It took a year after having my son that I finally wisened up. Why so long?

=^^= Youth? Followed by the hatchlings of wisdom? Like all of us?

Who knows... But I DID finally realize what kind of person he truly was.

=^^= Young and stupid too? Or just selfish?

I've talked to a couple of people that were in A's since then, and the first things out of their mouths is "but our situation is different....". My first thoughts? Just wait. You'll see that it's not.

=^^= But, it doesn't matter to the people beginning or sustaining an affair. They won't believe you...or care. There's a joke about an A where the two people are "making bacon" on the RR tracks with the train coming but they don't stop screwing. I forget the punch line but it had something to do with "finishing" before the train sliced them to ribbons, making the point that not even a locomotive bearing down on a person is going to keep them from doing what they want to do and the powerfulness of an A. Everyone thinks they are the exception.

That being said... I will never EVER feel guilty about my son.

=^^= Why would you feel guilty about HIM? He had nothing to do with any of it...he is the outcome, not the cause. And a precious joy to you.

I will always feel guilty about my part in the affair, but at this point in my life, it is in my past.

=^^= All anyone can do is move forward. We all have tons of things we regret in our lives...I've got a closet full. Mine just aren't about any A...but they are still terrible things I have done in my past that have either hurt someone I loved or hurt myself, and while most of them went life altering, they were painful experiences just the same and my fault. My deepest regret was/is giving my son up for adoption (for myself) and for any suffering my son endured because of me. I often wish I could turn back the clock, knowing what I know now, and do everything differently and make different and better choices. I always wonder if choosing other paths would have been better than the ones I chose and what the other outcomes would have been...where is that time machine? I pray for forgiveness and insight and ask God to soothe whatever injuries I caused my sons.

all the bickering is done between the OW/xOW and BW/xW and the one person that is TRULY responsible for the whole mess doesn't speak at all. It reminds me of junior high when these two girls used to fight

=^^= Most MM are conflict avoiders and these boards are riddled with conflict to avoid. My husband is extremely curious about what both sides say and will occasionally read the boards and he is mostly appalled and sometimes terrified, especially when he reads TOW (hahaha)which is laughable. He offers to write posts occasionally to answer questions from a WS POV, but I just tell him "thanks anyway" and he lets out this huge sigh of relief and settles down in front of the TV surfing channels. He looks "forward" and rarely looks back and says that when in those quiet moments he DOES look back, it makes him so sad he did all the things he did that he can hardly live with himself. So, his solution is to not look back as much as possible. But, he doesn't know what to do with that guilt. It's like he is lacking in solutions and hopes CS is enough. He says he wonders about OC and hopes she is OK and happy, but she remains ellusive to him because he has never seen her or met her. Since there is no bond, he just prays for her because there isn't much else he can do.

It would be nice if we could just discuss things on these boards, since there is rampant lurking on both sides, for "insightful purposes" and not take everything said so personally rather than watch the attempts at conversation deteriorate into one-liner insults in a feeble attempt to discredit someone rather than thoughtful responses. It is so 7th grade study hall to me...I know exactly what you are saying. No one gives anyone a chance. Instead they pick apart everything you say line by line, leaving out the truth entirely by replacing it with myths, while disecting it to the point where it is unrecognizable then make the most inane remarks about that are completely out of context, unrecognizable and make no sense whatever. Kind of like lynch mob mentality and extremely counterproductive and grossly immature. But, if you step back and just look at the over-reaction and where they come from, it is hilarious. Once you understand where it is coming from, you can't take it personally because it has nothing to do with you and everything about someone's inability to accept reality. It's tough to look within ourselves and realize that we ourselves are the architects of our own misery. It is human nature to want to blame someone else.

Interesting post, Joshmom. Thanks for your clarity.

Cat =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JoshMom:
<strong> There are plenty of women that have babies to hang onto the life that they have, married women included. How many times do you hear of a W that gets pregnant to hang onto a marriage? I remember there was a BW here a while ago whose H had an OC and she desperately wanted another child. He didn't. She ended up pg. Was that planned by both of them? Was he happy about it?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= That's true. I remember that. Having a marriage contract does not give anyone the right to do this even if it is more acceptable because of the marriage. That situation was so sad because the husband was so angry and resentful and with good reason. But, I think a lot of women are desperate to have another child after an A as a way to symbolically reclaim their marriage. Then they end up with one more responsiblity to interfere with their recovery because it is a lot harder to concentrate on just the "two of you" if there is a third party making a debut too soon in their lives. They could be using it as a quick fix band aid, but I don't know if I am accurate there or not. Just seems that way to me. Even being "fixed" I recall feeling a deep desire to conceive after D-day with emotions running rampant and feeling so empty. I think there are a lot of babies born that way that probably would never have existed otherwise. I would think this is a pretty logical response to rejection, loss and grief...not a good idea but understandable, I suppose.

Well, I've spent three hours [censored]-time on this computer and I'm not getting anything done again today. This has been fascinating but I've got to get moving and get some stuff done and stop procrastinating.

Have a great day

Cat =^^=

**oops.. double post**

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: JoshMom ]</small>

Catnip - in response to what you say about the back and forth on the boards, I think a HUGE problem is that the written word is so misconstrued. What someone writes may make a helluva lot of sense to them, but someone else reading it may take it the complet opposite way. If all of us were to get together in a huge room some time, I'd be willing to bet that more of us would get along than not get along.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB] Catnip - in response to what you say about the back and forth on the boards, I think a HUGE problem is that the written word is so misconstrued. What someone writes may make a helluva lot of sense to them, but someone else reading it may take it the complet opposite way.

=^^= I don't know about that. I don't seem to misconstrue anything I read and I don't know anyone here who does. I understand what someone is trying to say. I don't put words in anyone's mouth or accuse them of ridiculous motives or assume that they are being nefarious in some way. I accept what is said at face value. I mean, where is this "picking at scab" thing coming from? It's so funny! How do they get that? I truly think no one really reads, comprehends or gives thoughtful consideration to anything that is written. It seems they pick and chose what they want to read and then react like wet and hysterical hens if they read a sound bite that's off their radar. A more closed bunch of hens I've never seen. I edited my posts on TOW for spelling errors and the reaction was absolutely the funniest and most comical thing I had ever seen. The over-reactions and out in left field judgments were ridiculous and then making all kinds of bizarre assumptions...I thought no wonder these gals are in such a mess...they can't even think in their paranoia. Much ado about a lot of nothing.

If all of us were to get together in a huge room some time, I'd be willing to bet that more of us would get along than not get along.

=^^= Maybe. I know I would try. The thing is that I bet all the gals from MB would show up and only a couple of TOW's would show up in comparison...I know you would show up and be open to anything. It's a lot easier to bash someone on these boards than to face them and look into their eyes and see their humanity.

Cat =^^=

I lurk on both mb and TOW. I certainly understand the OW's pain.

I saw Catnips posts...and have seen them in the past and I agree that they are picked apart and analyzed.

There is one poster in particular over there...who isn't a BS or OW, and I swear, she is the main **** stirrer of the bunch.

She cuts/pastes/analyzes...and instead of discussing a topic, she is disecting the words...trying to appear intelligent.

I would LOVE to see her on this board and actually DEBATE a point...she'd never be able to do it.

Catnip..if you ever feel the need to post on TOW again, take it up to General.

Really, the posters on the childrens board are down to about 5 regulars...and I swear it is BECAUSE you can NOT have a sane debate on the board...In fact it seems there are OW who post more on THIS board than their own..

Again, go to general if you want to explore opposing vieww.

Abigailz

Ahhhh....reason and intelligence. What a breath of fresh air.

Thanks for the heads up. And the vindication.

Bless your heart.

cat =^^=

I was finally set over the edge with the responses to your post this morning on TOW. Instead of commenting/debating/discussing the points you made you were told (once again) to get off the board...then were told that you need to 'evaluate yourself' and stop picking at your scabs, etc....again, the pseudo-intellectual babble they like to spew because THEY CAN'T enter into discussion. I'd be willing to bet that is why some come here to talk...i.e. joshmom.

She can discuss with you HERE, but not on her own board...that is sad.

and..that one poster who CONSTANTLY lets EVERYONE know that she is NOT 'one of them'...she's not a OW or a BS...how many times does she say that...and not just in her signature line.

If she REALLY was an advocate for the OC, she would be attempting to bridge the gap, NOT drive a wedge further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> needtomoveon,
Thank you so much for the answer. But I'm not just talking about MM walking away from a child. I'm talking about all men.
I understand what you said and it makes some very good points but I'm still reading that if a women decides she cannot parent a child for whatever reasons then it is a selfless act but a man is a conflict avoider.
Do you not agree that even though his reasons are not the same as a women's that does not make them any less valid ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I understand what your saying. I would say there are woman who are conflict avoiders too. Either way there is no difference on the reasons. Does that make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by full house:
<strong> Giving a child up for adoption is the decision of both parents, by law the father has to be notified. I think a father walking away from a child whether or not planned is abandonment, the same for mothers who walk out on their children, which happened to my girlfriend when she was very small. Its running from your responsibilities. No matter how we feel, everything we do has consequences. It is sad to find yourself in this predictament. And truly I think i would rather not have a man involved in my childs life (when I have chosen to keep this child) if he truly does not want it. So I cant imagine forcing someone to be a part of a life they do not care about. It just seems that your asking for more problems and sorrow. So even though i feel yes both people should be responsible for the life of this child, and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility. But I firmly believe that the responsibility should be that the child is taken care of financially, so that she lives in the matter that all your children should live. The love and support emotionally should be by the parent or parents that choose to be with the child and truly want the child in their lives. Does this make sense or am I just rambling....trying to explain but sometimes I just dont have a way with words. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH makes perfect sense. I agree with you.

needtomoveon & Fullhouse,

***and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility.***

So you think anyone that puts a child up for adoption is wrong ?

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> needtomoveon & Fullhouse,

***and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility.***

So you think anyone that puts a child up for adoption is wrong ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JT, absolutly postively NOT. Your talking to someone who went through years of infertilty. It's the greatest gift someone can give someone. All I'm saying is it has to be right. Let me give you a couple of examples. I have many friends who have adopted. I can't give the examples now but will get back to this.
I just did not want you to think I thought that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by abigailz:
<strong> I was finally set over the edge with the responses to your post this morning on TOW. Instead of commenting/debating/discussing the points you made you were told (once again) to get off the board...then were told that you need to 'evaluate yourself' and stop picking at your scabs, etc....again, the pseudo-intellectual babble they like to spew because THEY CAN'T enter into discussion. I'd be willing to bet that is why some come here to talk...i.e. joshmom.

She can discuss with you HERE, but not on her own board...that is sad.

and..that one poster who CONSTANTLY lets EVERYONE know that she is NOT 'one of them'...she's not a OW or a BS...how many times does she say that...and not just in her signature line.

If she REALLY was an advocate for the OC, she would be attempting to bridge the gap, NOT drive a wedge further. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">abigailz.. or should I say your TOW name? You and the person in question seem to have a hate-hate relationship, and bashing her over here accomplishes what??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Please everyone !!!

We've had a really good dialog going on here. Lets not start a lot of trash talk between boards.

Thanks jtigger... I really don't see the problem with having dialog here AND there... But I don't like the "they said there.. we said here" stuff. There's just no point in it, except to ruffle feathers. We're supposed to be here to HELP, not hinder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Joshmom

I think bashing only occurs when someone is lying about someone. Abigailz is telling the truth and speaking what is the obvious. Is blind loyalty required even when someone is clearly out of line and damaging your own site with the ridiculous banter?

Regardless who Abigailz is, anyone with any reasonable thought process must be frustrated with the idiocy and the silliness of the poster in question.

If they were all like you, we wouldn't be having this conversation because while we definitely disagree on many issues, there is enormous respect, at least on this end. And we treat each other decently.

You're not a stupid woman, Joshmom. Even you can see the damage she is doing to your site and it's really too bad because it serves no one. Who can take all that stuff she says seriously? It just seems like there are some people out there that get off on inciting disharmony.

Cat =^^=

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> Joshmom

I think bashing only occurs when someone is lying about someone. Abigailz is telling the truth and speaking what is the obvious. Is blind loyalty required even when someone is clearly out of line and damaging your own site with the ridiculous banter?

Regardless who Abigailz is, anyone with any reasonable thought process must be frustrated with the idiocy and the silliness of the poster in question.

If they were all like you, we wouldn't be having this conversation because while we definitely disagree on many issues, there is enormous respect, at least on this end. And we treat each other decently.

You're not a stupid woman, Joshmom. Even you can see the damage she is doing to your site and it's really too bad because it serves no one. Who can take all that stuff she says seriously? It just seems like there are some people out there that get off on inciting disharmony.

Cat =^^= </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JM: Well, thanks, I think I'm pretty smart myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But there are people that get off on inciting disharmony. "conversations" happen on the general board, or in PM's and I'm not privy to those. I happen to like that particular poster very much, and think that she contributes quite a bit to the site. Does that make me stupid because others don't agree with her? Sometimes *I* don't agree with her. But that's the beauty of this world. Everyone has their own opinion, and they're entitled to it. I suppose I started this by saying that to Abigailz.. but this really is turning into a threadjack, and that was not my intention. I'm sorry JTigger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

posted by pops: so she lashes out at the easiest target she sees and that is the bw. the ow's anger is truely at the mm but since he wants nothing to do with her know ow strikes at his bw in an attempt to hurt him.
**********
**********

This is EXACTLY what my darling H says! EXACTLY!!!

I wonder to him, "what does OW have against me? what did I ever do to her? And why take it out on BC?"

And THAT is his answer.

It still irritates the HECK out of me. Why can't she take her "issues" to the one she has them w/ instead of me. Or at least go get her own therapist to B*!(# to.

Sorry to change the subject.

This thread is so long that I did not have the time to read it all, so I apologize if this question was already addressed. I have often wondered why a woman (OW in my case) can get pregnant, decide to give a child up for adoption for WHATEVER reason (I don't want to debate the reasons), and she can give her child up without contact OR CHILD SUPPORT and this is OK and even considered to be good for the child. BUT a man (for example a MM with OC) can't decide to essentially give this OC up for adoption (even if the person adopting or taking responsibility for raisin the child is its mother or OW) and not see the child AND NOT pay CS? When the OW gets pregnant she CAN make the decision to give the child up for adoption and no one will be coming after her for $$$ (on TOW, many of the OW say they are getting CS for revenge or so MM is not let off the hook). Why can't a man make the same decision without someone coming after him for $$$. Why does a woman have more rights than a man? And why does a man have a RESPONSIBILITY to pay if he would have chosen to give the OC up for adoption, but he OW would not have any responsibilty to pay if she gave the OC up for adoption? The OW see themselves as having all the rights, but only the amount of responsibilty that they CHOOSE. The MM has no choice and has to be financially resoponsible b/c of the OW's CHOICE to keep this child. Seems very unfair to me.

4tbs,,,,,,,,,, i think that you are confusing adoption with single parenthood. if the ow gave the child up for adoption with the bio dads consent then niether would pay cs.

but should the ow give the give the oc to the bio dad for him to raise and sign away all her rights to the child then there is a good chance that SHE will have to pay cs.

the trouble is that nature has built in a device that makes it ALMOST impossible for a woman to give up a child that she gives birth to.

in one of the earlier posts you were talking about who would attend a get together. i believe it was between the bw's and the ow's. i am curious that if such a gathering would occur exactly how many ws's would attend? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

pops,
I don't think that ftb has it confused with single parenthood...
I think what she is trying to ask is, WHY is it acceptable for a woman to decide she wants to give up her child, for whatever reason, and no longer have contact or rights to that child?
Yet, when a man makes that same type of decision, he is abandoning his child?
Should he want to give up his child, for whatever reason, it is unacceptable in today's society.

A woman can leave her child on the steps of a church/clinic... "Oh, she left the child in a place where someone could take that child and make sure that s/he was taken care of..." There are states that will not attempt to find her because she left the child at an "acceptable drop-off place."
Yet, should a woman leave her child in a bathroom at say a McDonald's... "ABANDONMENT... FIND HER!"

Either case, is abandonment in my book.

Yet, if a woman makes the choice to sign away her rights.... give the child over for adoption.... Then she has given someone else a wonderous gift that can never be matched.

BUT, should a man decide he wants to sign away his rights to a child that he fathered.. in today's society he is branded with today's latest Scarlet Letter... Abandonment...

In essence, he is making the same choice that the woman who gives up her child for adoption.
Then why should he be forced to pay child support? If the woman gives the child up for adoption, she is not required to pay child support. Those people that adopt the child take FULL responsibility for the child... EVEN if its a SINGLE PERSON adopting a child. They don't get Child support from the bio-mothers..
They chose to raise the child and the person or persons that choose not to raise the child will not be forced to pay child support.

So, essentially, WHY should ANYONE that chooses not to raise a child be forced to pay child support?

I understand why there is Child Support.. really I do. I also see that the system is completely biased against men. I have a different view of child support, but this is about abandonment not child support...

I know I only stirred the muddy waters... Sorry I can't make it more clear.

Stacia

i understand what she is asking.

a woman single, divorced, ow, whatever can't give her child up for adoption legally without the fathers consent. she may say she has no idea who the father is and then proceed under that lie. BUT if the bio dad ever gets wind of it he can sue and most likely win custody of the child.

the same woman can also sign away her rights to the child, same as a man. AND if the father knows of this and is not willing to place the child for adoption (he wants custody) then that woman will most likely end up paying cs, same as a man.

if the same woman decides to place child for adoption and the father also says adopt then they both have given a tremendous gift. but legally it takes them BOTH to sign away their rights for adoption.

the problem arises in the fact that for most women it is extremely hard to give up a child they have carried for 9 months. so now you are faced with 2 people with opposite opinions of what they want to do about this child. a father who because of the situation (doesn't matter what) wants nothing to do with the child and a mother who can't give her child up.

would it be fair if a woman wanted to give up her rights to the baby and the man wanted to raise the child. And let's say the woman is an attorney and the man is a carpenter. would the man in this case not be entitled to cs? sure he would. so now the woman says "hey i don't want any part of that kids". should she be able to just walk away? no.

or stacia in your own situation what if ow says she wants nothing more to do with precious? do you and your h not seek cs from her? now i know that allowing her the option to walk and keeping her out of your life is there but what if you 2 needed the money? and i am not talking here about the situation where the custodial parent seeks cs out of revenge.

you see in either case one parent doesn't want to raise the child but will have to be finacialy responsible because the 2 people couldn't come to one agreement. true it doesn't often happen where the man raises the child but i have to believe the law would work the same either way.

she is in a sense asking how much that basket of apples weighs and she has a basket of oranges on the scale.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

pops,
My husband is a carpenter by trade (contractor now)

Ow is wealthy. Period.

Husband wanted no part of a pregnancy and ow was willing to bank that I WOULD LEAVE HUSBAND for her pregnancy. Didn't happen as 30 years speaks for its self....Ow is/was still married in an odd sense.

We still pay cs AND health insurance unwillinly. We would sign off in a minute if ow would let us but there is a REVENGE factor....

Still pisses us both off but living well is a beter revenge as we overcame it all. (For the most part) We are lucky enough to still vacation and purchase big ticket items in spite of cs/health ins... And for the record oc is named in our will and left zero.... heck, he won't be around when the will is read but our son and daughter-in-law and granddaughter will.....And it's all theirs.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No easy answer but if law makers and judges would actually look at each case then the laws would change by circumstance....

No contact and not wanted by my H but the law says pay pay pay...so we do...her H is daddy...what the heck is my husband doing paying for both their mistake? Why doesn't she get her fat hump out to work and pay too? We weren't allowed to mention her trust fund! We did mention zero to oc in our wills... Paybacks are a...well...you know...

My saying about it all now is "Whatever!!!" H's is "I'd like to choke that lying bytch....yeah right the "pill" she went off at the end to trap me because I couldn't deal another minute with her bull, gifts, calls, and bytching" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Debi

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

in one of the earlier posts you were talking about who would attend a get together. I believe it was between the bw's and the ow's. I am curious that if such a gathering would occur exactly how many ws's would attend?


I would go pops, After all I love meeting new people and frankly no matter which side of the coin your on, we are all just people.

by the way.. a different thought on the subject. Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing. Then BAM I want to be daddy? Guss what in this state he can do that. The system doesnt work for every one and it isnt just women who are abusing the system. Our system is screwed up just a fact.

gem,,,,,,,,,,, i know each case has its own specifics that is why i said
...................i am not talking here about the situation where the custodial parent seeks cs out of revenge...........................

for the record i agree that our system needs to be reworked.

also i agree that who is in your will is your own business.

however i think that if you left the oc out as a revenge factor that is rediculous. who are you exacting revenge on oc or ow? AND I AM NOT SAYING YOU NEED TO PUT OC IN YOUR WILL IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

just asking if you fell your reasoning is healthy for you. to not include oc because ypou and h have never had a relationship with him/her or even that you think your son's family deserves it because of whatever. doesn't matter. but for the revenge is sweet notion. that tells me that you are carrying some animosity (sp?) with you that is not healthy.

mo5,,,,,,,,, i know that fh would attend also. i really like putting faces to the names and voices of people. and i have been accussed of having the gift of gab on more then one occassion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

my 22 yol son left for n.y vacation yesterday. he is looking forward to meeting people he has only talked to on the phone with business for the first time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB] Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing.

=^^= THAT is GROSSLY unfair...unfair to the child, unfair to you and your family. If you have been successful at rebuilding your marriage and your child is safe, secure, happy and thriving, for any XMM to waltz in after several years at the eleventh hour and make a claim or disrupt your child's or life in any way is incredible selfish and self-serving. Morally, he has NO RIGHT to do this and shame on him. And, more importantly, shame on the state's legal policies that permit such disharmony and disruption in all of your lives.

I think if it were me, in fact I am positive if it were me, I would be writing reams and reams of letters to your state lawmakers and officials regarding this dilemma, citing that it is not in the child's best interest to be forced to change his/her name after years of knowing just one name and it isn't right for this person to have the power to disrupt your marriage and your family after years of getting a pass on CS and having the benefit of accessible and workable visitation with a more than reasonable person!

YOU, my dear, have been way too easy on XOM and this is one case where the reverse situation is just as bad as what most of the people here endure. You have been reasonable beyond expectation, working very hard to accomodate everyone for your child's sake, and if any of us HAVE to be in a situation like this, we all wish it were with someone like you.

I think it's appalling that any XMM can come out of the woodwork making demands years after the fact. I think it is OK for him to make a "request", but if it is vetoed, he should just say OK and back off and let everyone get on with their lives.

Cat =^^=

You can count this ws in too, I'd show up!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mo5:
by the way.. a different thought on the subject. Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing. Then BAM I want to be daddy? Guss what in this state he can do that. The system doesnt work for every one and it isnt just women who are abusing the system. Our system is screwed up just a fact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My worst nightmare, Mo5!!!!!

No amount of money in the world is worth having him come back to be "daddy".

Personally, I would urge any woman who has a child as a result of an affair, and decides to keep the baby...to do her very best to raise the child on her own, without CS, if at all possible. Move on, get as far away from the OM whether he's S or M. It would be better to raise the baby in a single parent home than trying to force contact with someone who simply doesn't want it. If you can go NO CS, all the better, because that pretty much guarantees NC, and no drama for ANY of the parties affected by the A.

This is very much my personal opinion, and I guess, easy for me to say, but honestly I believe in this.

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

The question is a valid one. WHY is it acceptable for women and not men?
That has yet to be answered.

As for our case,
OW did give a child up for adoption. The father caught wind of it… AFTER the paperwork was filed. He chose to raise the child. OW gave birth and the father took the child straight away. OW has never seen him. She gave the child up for adoption. Her rights ended.
Her 2nd child was beaten with a chain link dog leash. She failed to protect him from her exBF. The child was removed from her custody. She pays no CS for him, either.
As far as Lil Bit, if OW would give up her rights then we would accept that without one thought. We currently have Primary Custody… she is supposed to be responsible for Child Support, yet she does not pay anything. We are currently shouldering the full responsibility for the costs of raising a child. She is enjoying “part-time parenthood.”
Does anyone look down on her for not paying CS on any of her children? Probably not… WHY? Probably because it was the 1st father’s CHOICE not to press for CS and it was her mother’s CHOICE not to press for CS.
It is our CHOICE to press for CS… We are in the process of filing for Lil Bit’s CS.

The point I am trying to make is this.. CHOICE.

Scenario1:
Woman chose not to keep baby. Father chose to keep baby.

Scenario2:
Woman chose not to keep baby. Father chose not to keep baby.

Scenario3:
Woman chose to keep baby. Father chose not to keep baby.


Choice. Each of the Scenarios is about Choice. Each person has a choice.
In the first and third Scenarios, ONE person makes a choice not to be involved with the child. WHAT is so different? WHY is it that the third scenario is the one that society looks down on?
First Scenario: What a WONDERFUL FATHER!
Second Scenario: What a wonderful gift to give someone!
Third Scenario: What a JERK!


All of us are given choices. The woman has the ultimate choice. The man is left to make his choice after she has made hers. SOME men are able to make their choice before the woman makes hers… but HIS is the one that is called into question more often than not. FACT.

True, there is an innate sense of love in mothers. But also TRUE, that there can be the same innate sense of love in fathers.
And in one way of looking at things…
All people are cut out to be parents; some just aren’t sewed up right.
A woman is a woman… but that doesn’t necessarily mean she will want to be a mother.
A man is a man… but that doesn’t necessarily mean he will want to be a father.
Just because two people are “built” to have children doesn’t mean they have to have children.

Just trying to make some sense of WHY it is viewed as unacceptable for a man to make the choice not to be involved.

My question is not about LEGAL issues. It is about society views.

pops,
My H was the one to have a new will drawn up and made sure after all the cs was paid FORCEFULLY that ow/oc were owed nothing more.

Like I said, oc will not be around to see the will read. We didn't leave oc a dollar, we simply said he gets nothing more after 18 years of payment.

His bio dad never wanted him. Ow lied about the birth control she was using because as she told me, "he always wanted more children" so she took it upon herself to give him another even though he said he didn't want to have chilren with her, sort of a "condition" of the affair.

For whatever reason oc is here and H said they are already taking too much from us... Oc will be in her and her H's wills I'm sure...Why would oc expect something from a stranger? I wouldn't. Even if the stranger was biologically related but I never knew him/her.

So you can call leaving oc out of our will "revenge", we see it as protection in case of my H's death and ow still wants more for oc... Perhaps you see it as revenge because of Grace. You can see another side. Who's to say you are wrong or right? Not me. We just do what we do as humans to survive a horrendous nightmare and hope we can just continue on in peace.

We both have had discussions about oc, and H feels nothing for oc. Neither do I. No hate. No love either. We do not even know oc. We just hope they go on their merry way and leave us alone.

In a perfect world huh pops? In a perfect world....

Debi

ps....Don't think I'd want to come to the gathering of BS,WS,OP's...it would be a political nightmare with different opinions flying around like snowflakes in a blizzard. All of our stories differ but the aftershock is pretty much set in stone for each of those titles. Each feels a different hurt and it will never come to be a union of the souls type meeting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong> in one of the earlier posts you were talking about who would attend a get together. i believe it was between the bw's and the ow's. i am curious that if such a gathering would occur exactly how many ws's would attend? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pops, I think that it was me saying that if we were get everyone together (BW's and OW's) into a big room, a lot more of us would get along than you'd think. This was about the back and forth stuff from TOW. That's all.

There have been some good posts on this thread but I agree with Stacia Lee...

***The question is a valid one. WHY is it acceptable for women and not men?
That has yet to be answered***

I really want to hear from the OW that have voiced the abandonment issue so loudly. I promise there will be no flaming (RIGHT EVERYONE???!! ) But I really want to understand their thought process on this issue.

Gem~

What if we promised not to talk about "it", and all just got drunk, ate a lot of good food, talked about a less controversial and painful topic, like Bush v. Kerry and played bunko, or something? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The only "case" for lack of a better word that I can comment on is my own. This is the only one that I know all the facts on. I don't know enough about anyone elses to do so. xMM was around for the first year. BEFORE I had the baby, I gave him the opportunity to walk away without a second glance backwards. HE chose not to do that. I chose to say after my son's first birthday - either see him consistently and on the up and up or don't see him at all. He hasn't made an effort since. That was over 7 years ago. Do I consider that abandonment? Yes. Had he walked away when I gave him the chance when I was pregnant, would I still consider that abandonment? Probably not. He wouldn't have gotten to know this child. He wouldn't have been called "Da-Da". He wouldn't KNOW what he was missing. Now he does. BUT.... I'm also WAY past the A, the feelings, and all that and able to look at things from taking a step back. I can't make any generalizations about any other situations because I'm not involved in "their" situation.

~Aut~,
Ok then I'm in!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But Bush and Kerry can get me just as riled up....perhaps we can just eat and drink? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
love
Debi

Ok, eating and drinking it is!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Only one of the candidates gets me all riled up, the other I adore!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry JTigger, continue on....

I'll have a big ole' Texas beef burger with mustard, mayo and lettuce...NO KETCHUP. Hahahaha.

Meow.

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

it's been a while since i posted, but figured i'd add my two cents.

in the case of my oc, om has nothing to do with him. nothing. do i think this is abandonment? heck no! it's a blessing!! one that i'm so thankful for - especially after reading a thread like this.

but i do realize this is different than the single ow, married om situation...
1) i'm married so liam has a dad (an AWESOME one, i might add!)
2) my om is/was not fighting me on this
3) it was my decesion to end contact with om. so although it wasn't his "choice", he did respect my decision.

some may say that my om has the right to be in liam's life, and they'd be right. in canada, there's no statute of limitations on parental rights. meaning that om could fight me for it AT ANY TIME now or years from now. i really pray that won't happen.

back to the question, om didn't abandon the oc in this case - unless you want to say he "abandoned" him to a wonderful life, with two adoring parents who love him more than anything.

~amy

JT: I told you I'd get back to you. I know it's been a few days...sorry. The answer your now looking for is different than before. I'll try and answer both though and hopefully I can get through this without interputions.

As far as adoption, It's the greatest gift to give someone it really is. Pops said it best though about what woman go through. Also I think if a woman is giving up for the "right" reasons then she is not taking the easy road out. Although use me in this example. I'm 41. I'm not rich but I'm not poor. I already have two kids. I have a life. I do support myself. I am mentally able to raise kids. I think in my case, if I were to give my daughter up for adoption it would of purely been the easy road out. I am having to make ajustments in my life and my twins life, but they won't be for ever. I feel if I would of chosen to adopt my daughter out I would be taking the easy road out. Every circumstance is different. If I was very poor and did not have a career already and a life in place or very young then I would be doing the right thing. It's probaly a difference of opinions here as we are on two different sides of the coins. I do feel that xmm owes cs to his daughter. He does not owe me a thing. The cs is not for me, it's for her. Just as I owe her support too. In our case, we never talked about not wanting kids. It was never something that neither one of us thought about as my twins were not concieved in a bedroom. He was offered to use condoms and we together did not use birth control. He asked me months before I ever got pregnant that if I were to ever get pregnant would I have an abortion or adopt the child out. I flat out told him NO NO NO at that point. There was no "well let me think about it", or "what would you want me to do?". He knew I'd keep whatever child I had if I were to get pregnant. So as far as him not wanting her, okay so he does not want her. He also knew too. We never talked about what if I get pregnant he would not be in the child's life. He owes HER cs. NOT ME. I'm not trying to flame here, but it's really his lost not being in her life. It's not mine and it's only her's to a point. After his true colors came out, why would I want him around her? She has overcome so many obsticles through pregnancy and there is a reason she is here. I don't want cs for revenge, or any other reason then it's owed to her. Yes I feel he has abondand her. I also feel that I would of if I would of given her up too under the circumstances.

Joshmom,
If it makes you feel any better: DIL's dad had a live-in girlfriend since before our granddaughter was born. He babysits 2 days a week and our granddaughter called his girlfriend "mama girlfriends name." They broke up before the holidays and my granddaughter never mentioned "ma ma girlfriend" again. She will be 2 this month. She doesn't remember her.

I guess I am trying to say that Josh will not remember MM. Only you are the one right now who is dissappointed because you remember.

Make sense?

Also my comments on how my husband and I feel about oc is in no way meant for others to think it is set in stone others think that way.
Each situation has it's own circumstances. This is just ours.

How he also wishes he could take back the afternoon she asked "Don't you trust me?" when he didn't have a raincoat for protection....she adamently said "You know I'm on the pill because my H and I don't want more kids....3 is enough!" "C'mon sweetheart, one last time". The rest is history! BTW H was there to drop off a check to her Mother for a home they built and sold for profit together and Mom wasn't home. H had already ended A...she lied saying her Mom was home but in the bathroom.....should have mailed that check...don'tcha think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

love
Debi

NTMO~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes I feel he has abondand her. I also feel that I would of if I would of given her up too under the circumstances.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just don't get that. He will be paying CS, thus meeting her physical needs, how is that abandonment?

He's not planning to be daddy for a few years, or even a few months, and then planning to disappear,is he?

You said yourself you don't care if he has contact or not, yet when he chooses not to, it's abandonment? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If I were you, I'd be grateful for the CS and be glad that someone who doesn't want to be daddy to my child will not have any contact. I'm afraid if you continue to think of his decision for NC as abandonment, it will rub off on your child. Is that the legacy you want to create for her?

For the record, if you had given her up for adoption, I would not consider it abandonment either. Just because someone is in a good position to be a parent, yet still chooses adoption, does not make them an abandoner, (is that a word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

I stick by what I said earlier, the decision to give a baby up for adoption based on either "good" reasons or "bad" reasons does not matter. Either way, to give a baby up for adoption upon birth, is not abandonment.

A man, no matter his past promises, his reasoning, (whether the OW, or anyone for that matter considers them valid, good, or bad), is not an abandoner either. He chose NC, end of story.

This is JMO, no more, no less.

Catnip~
For a minute there, I thought you were on Atkins, but then, duhhhhhh, the light went on! Right there with you kiddo, only you might have to skip the mustard too. Doesn't that co. make it, as well?

needtomoveon,
I understand where you are coming from but I'm still reading that you feel mm abandoned his child because he did not capitulate to your wishes.
You say he knew there was a chance you could become pregnant but had sex anyway. I'm sure that 99.9% of women that have given children up for adoption knew that when they had sex there was a chance they could get pregnant but they had sex anyway. Does that mean they abandoned their child if they put it up for adoption? I don't think we should say that if a man consents to sex he consents to parenthood unless we are going to hold women to that standard too.
As far as the reasons that do or do not make it acceptable to put a child up for adoption I think they are completely subjective. What is is good reason to me may not be a good reason to you and vice versa. Does that make my reasons any less valid ? Does it make your any less valid ? I know for a fact my bio mother gave me up for adoption so she could finish med school. Was that wrong ? She probably could have kept me and finished school but I'm sure it would have been very difficult.
I think what we all need to learn here is that if a man walks away from an unwanted pregnancy it is not abandonment, it is a choice. Just like the choice we women make when we decide the outcome of a pregnancy. Biology gives men no other alternative.
I still think it is unrealistic to say to man... sorry, I know you didn't want a child but here we are and now I expect you to love it and co-parent it with me. Just like I think it is unreasonable to tell a women you got pregnant, now you have to have this child and raise even if you do not want to be a parent right now.
That is what choice is all about. I just think both sexes should be on the same playing field.
Now with that being said, I do think if a man has bonded with a child and then decides it gets too complicated and walks away that IS abandonment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong> Joshmom,
If it makes you feel any better: DIL's dad had a live-in girlfriend since before our granddaughter was born. He babysits 2 days a week and our granddaughter called his girlfriend "mama girlfriends name." They broke up before the holidays and my granddaughter never mentioned "ma ma girlfriend" again. She will be 2 this month. She doesn't remember her.

I guess I am trying to say that Josh will not remember MM. Only you are the one right now who is dissappointed because you remember.

Make sense?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Makes absolute sense.. And I KNOW that Josh won't remember MM. He asks about him, as any child without a father around is bound to do. I'm THANKFUL that xMM walked away when he did, if he did it when Josh was older and could understand what was going on, hell would have had no fury like a mama bear who's baby has been hurt. And I'm not disappointed any more - again, I'm thankful. I've been able to move 1,000 miles away, make a better life for both of us and not have to worry about any ramifications. But, if his father had been in his life, I never would have moved. I've had a couple of serious bf's in the past 6 years, and Josh remembers one of them - barely. And not fondly. He was an alcoholic and pretty nasty when he needed a drink. Hence the EXbf. He got nasty to Josh ONCE. That was the first and last time - that opened my eyes to a lot about him, all of it not good.

Well Joshmom, glad you got rid of a potential abuser for both your sakes!

It must be hard to find words to say to Josh when there is no father figure around. I have no answers.

Now on MM maybe leaving when Josh was 6? I see your anger rising, but there is still nothing one person can do to make another pay attention and want to be a parent.

~Aut~ I get an upset stomach with big cheeseburgers especially ones from Texas, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> so can we have sushi or something like appetizers galore? (Sorry Catnip, we'll still have your burger ready!) And lots of different wines to drink....

Aut and Jtigger I love the reasoning behind your explainations... it is how I have felt for years but never had a chance to write it all down. Equal rights my (fill in with any totally raunchy word)! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
love
Debi

I'll go for sushi!
hugs
twiisty
(and yes Gem, speaking as someone who is dealing with inequality in regards to the law) "equal rights my (_________enter expletitive!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

mof5 wrote:Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing. Then BAM I want to be daddy? Guss what in this state he can do that.
**********
**********
Why? for the same reason a woman can ask for nothing for 4 (or however many) years and then disrupt the man's life and family & come knocking on the door for CS. For the same reason that there is no statue of limitations (in some states) to file for CS.

Don't worry, the 'disruption' goes both ways. Is it fair for either one? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

It would be nice if sperm donors could CHOOSE to sign away thier rights from the very beginning---then there would be no confusion like that. NO rights means no rights and no obligations either.

(my)OW said she wanted NOTHING, nothing means nothing. Did H have thoughts of OC, yes but respected OW wishes and felt it was best for all involved since he wanted to stay married to me and keep his family.

OW had another child w/ no daddy and guess what? Well into recovery, moving on w/ OUR lives and expecting baby #3BAMyou're getting sued for CS!!! Talk about disruption of your life?

It sucks on BOTH sides! No one wants their lives disrupted so why can't the court system allow more choice? We tax payers are all paying anyway. We still have to pay (through taxes) for children and adults on welfare, whether your paying your CS or not. You don't get some credit voucher for your taxes if you're paying CS, heck you can't even claim that child as your dependant.

The whole thing just sucks! ALL around. If a parent does not want to be involved then I think they should be allowed to terminate thier rights completely. Then some man can't walk back in, all of sudden disrupting a child's life and some woman can't come walking back in, all of a sudden disrupting the om life.

I don't think it is abandonement @ all, unless like someone else said, there is a relationship established and then the parent just disappears.

JMO

gem........... this is what i was refering to.
said by you........................ Paybacks are a...well...you know...............

i could care less if oc is in or out or mentioned or not mentioned in your or anyones will. that is not what i was talking about. i was talking about the reasons for which ever action one takes. the morals behind the action. yes i know that i can't control what anyone else does. and "in the perfect world" scenerio stuff. but if i was to help one person let go of their anger for one minute it would be worth all the time spent showing my "SOFT" heart.

all i meant was that for YOU carrying the thought of revenge (my word as you said payback) doesn't seem healthy. especially considering all the years it would have to be carried.

to me it doesn't even matter the reason. i was making a statement for you to consider concerning your own health and peace of mind.

now please for you and all others who seem to think that my world revolves around grace. i know that i see things different from many but that has nothing to do with grace. i have many of the same feelings, thoughts, questions and triggers that people like ktbunch have when it comes to their oc's. if you have noticed most of my references to my experiences are from ex gf and #1s. the advice i offer to those who are dealing and struggling with c vs nc comes from my similar (no 2 are the same) expeiences while wearing their shoes from 1974 to now.

my soft spot for kids has come from over twenty three years of putting in 15 - 20 hours a week coaching kids. i have seen all types of parents and parental role models that kids deal with. fh was in the child care business for 15 - 20 years also. so not only did i deal with my kids and the kids i coached i would come home from work and help raise her daycare kids. believe me i have seen some wierd adults and heard about every strange philosophy you can imagine on child raising.

and yes having grace here day in and day out has made it easier to bond with her. no question about it. but if it were not for the person i was before she came to be either fh and her or i would be someplace else right now.

i want everyone to know that should this poor sole ever hit a lotto i am sending you all a pair of tickets for this get together deal. deal?

but i have to let you know please don't hold your breath. my luck with stuff like that is zero. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

kt

my point exactly None of it is fair for every one. never will be . We just all take what we have and make the best of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thats what you can do.

cat nip

thanks for the support, Gee you see more riled up than I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I dont think were in that bad of shape yet! I just wanted those who think it only goes against them, that they it isnt always that way. the system needs changed in many ways, It isnt perfect so we have to make the best of what we are handed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by autumnday:
[QB]
Catnip~
For a minute there, I thought you were on Atkins, but then, duhhhhhh, the light went on! Right there with you kiddo, only you might have to skip the mustard too. Doesn't that co. make it, as well?

Hahahaha....you really cracked me up. That was funny. You're right! I forgot about that. Guess I'll have to switch to Grey Poupon.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jtigger:
[QB]
I still think it is unrealistic to say to man... sorry, I know you didn't want a child but here we are and now I expect you to love it and co-parent it with me. Just like I think it is unreasonable to tell a women you got pregnant, now you have to have this child and raise even if you do not want to be a parent right now.
That is what choice is all about. I just think both sexes should be on the same playing field.
Now with that being said, I do think if a man has bonded with a child and then decides it gets too complicated and walks away that IS abandonment.

=^^= JTigger...God. You're good. What an excellent and extremely logical explanation. It's hard to believe that anyone could even remotely argue with your points. However, we know that some people just can't face their own responsiblity for what they have done to contribute to their child's situation and need a scape goat. Unfortunately, emotialism and hysteria will always trump logic on these boards until maturity and acceptance eventually come to everyone...in time.

Cat =^^=

Hi,
Well my H was adopted and have I have two cousins that thay were adopted. And my h said it was the best thing that ever happened for him. His parents already had 6 other kids and were dirt poor and could not provide for him.

Also, my uncle got married to a woman, who at the time his son was two years old when they might. For whatever reason, his bio-dad was not not involved with him. And my uncle stepped in and adopted him. The woman he married already had two kids from a previous marriage and then had another after she divorced her first husband. The father did not want anything to do with him and a couple of years later she meet my uncle and married him. They got a divorce 5 years later and my uncle has full custody of his son. He said it does not matter if he is not biogical his. He is his son. If the the bio-dad would have stepped in then he would not have his son today.

Also, my other uncle gave up a son that he deeply loved. He tried to see his son to he had the police come to the house but just kept te1l1ng the lady not to do it again. Sh would refuse him to see his son and he would call the cops but they would not do anything. He kept going back to court but after over $100,000 he could not fight no longer. Granted this was 18 years ago and things have changed. This lady married and her husband adopted him. He said when he comes looking for him he will tell him the truth. He will be 18 soon.

Dawn

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
[QB] i want everyone to know that should this poor sole ever hit a lotto i am sending you all a pair of tickets for this get together deal. deal?

=^^= Deal! Wouldn't that be fun? I would just love it if we could all have our own little reunion. Everyone welcome, too, right?

As far as luck, my cousin always said if she didn't have bad luck, she'd have no luck at all. I suppose on these boards that holds true for a lot of us. But, ya never know....sometimes ya just never know. When you say a "pair" of tickets, I take it to mean we bring spouse? Bipolar will come if it's in California.

Oh, and Pops...that soft heart of yours is part of your charm...don't ever change. We need the ying and yang of it all. It's why we love you. We'll just issue you a combat helmet for the next time (and there will be a next time ...you can rely on that like the sun sets in the west) there's a thread war.

Cat =^^=

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

pops~ You gotta do what my H does...everytime he changes the baby's diaper, he says, "Is daddy gonna get lucky this time???...Oh yeah baby, no poopies, I think I'll have to buy a lottery ticket today!!"

KtB~ With all due respect, it sounds like your ow came after you for CS, with no intention of disrupting, except for the money. Was not the decision for C yours and H's? Couldn't all the conflict and disruption been avoided if you would've just paid CS and remained NC?

JTigger~ Extremely well put!!!

Sorry ladies, just thinking of sushi makes my stomach hurt. I'll stick with the appetizers. Cat, we could always do Texas chili, no "off limit" condiments involved in that!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

~ad

Morning pops,
Really it isn't revenge...honestly I say "whatever" meaning no revenge is in me now, maybe at first, but not now.

The will thing is simply because paying for all the years we will have to is enough dough to pay for an unwanted pregnancy. We will never know oc and oc will be a stranger and who leaves anything to a stranger? See? I don't know how else to explain it.

I guess we look at it like oc IS adopted by ow's H and that will be the family oc will know. I don't think people leave their adopted out children anything in their wills... Understand now?

Thanks for worrying about my health pops. I'm doing rather well these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's so hard to read how the written word is said around here, the sound of the words are the way they are taken, you know? Mine are said without a tone of revenge here.

Twiisty nice to know you'll be enjoying the sushi with me! Now that Texas chili sounds yummy~~~~~

Debi

***Unfortunately, emotialism and hysteria will always trump logic***

Thats the biggest problem when you try to get people to rationally explain their position on this point. Their emotions get in the way and they can not argue the point logically.
And by the way....
Sushi sounds excellent to me !!

<small>[ April 03, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

I think that what we've gone through in our lives has a lot to do with how we feel about things like this. I was engaged to a man years ago that had a son whom he never saw or paid cs for. When he told this story, I insisted that he start paying cs and at least start making some sort of effort to contact this boy. It was not if he could not afford cs, he made very good money. He was just dead beat. I told him I could not marry someone who did that cause he may do it to our own kids too. We never married as he cheated on me and I left, but he did start having a relationship with his son. He has passed away and at least I know he got to know his son before he died. So I guess it's just the way I feel. As far as one of you guys asking me about just take the cs and be done with it seeing I don't care if he sees her or not. I'm working on that. I've accepted the fact he won't be in her life. For me it will be easier. As far as cs.....well I can't even get him to take the dna test, let alone pay cs. My attorney has filed paperwork and he will be served soon. He asked me to take a dna test through amino as soon as possible. I made two appointments and he did a no show to both. For my daughter it would be in her best interest, but as it's been said so many times....in a perfect world.....this is not a perfect world. She will be okay though without him in her life. I have plenty of friends and family who love her and cherish her. As a mother though I just can't help but to feel sorry for her for this. Also, someone mentioned about my feelings going off on her over this. That won't happen. I can feel the way I feel over this, but hide it. As much as he has done and hurt me, it would do her no good to know any of it. There may come a day when she is much much older that he may change his mind or she may go looking for her and it's not up to me to put thoughts into her head. My twins father (although around) does not put them first nor does he think of them as he should. I don't put him down to them or discourage them at all. That is there daddy and will always be. The older they get they'll see and hopefully by then he will realize how important his time with them is and do some changes with that. So I guess I've already learned with my twins what NOT to do or say. I don't know how I will handle it then, but I've got years before I've got to deal with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by autumnday:
<strong> KtB~ With all due respect, it sounds like your ow came after you for CS, with no intention of disrupting, except for the money. Was not the decision for C yours and H's? Couldn't all the conflict and disruption been avoided if you would've just paid CS and remained NC?

~ad </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Paying over $500 a month for 1 OC while the rest of us and our family are expected to now live off of $1500 a month is quite a disruption don't you think?(hmmmm...lets think.... $500 for 1 OC and $1500 for 2 adults and 3 BC????? oh no that's rith there were ONLY 2 BC since #3 was not going to be born until AFTER CS hearing!)

We thought since OW originally said she wanted 'nothing' and now was asking for "something" that OW was now inviting us and wanted us in OC life. We naively thought, "how can you be there financially for OC and not there in every other way?" We stupidly thought, "since OW is contacting us, why wouldn't we be involved?"

We thought we were doing the "right thing". I guess the 'right thing' is dependant on what OW wants!!!!!!!!!

Yes, if we had known that that OW ONLY wanted $$$$ and not for OC to have a "dad", while a little double standard'd, we might have left it that way instead. OW continuously gave mixed messages.

CS is still a disruption and when you are low income to begin w/ it is a MAJOR disruption!

But things are different now, CS is lower and visitation is more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

gem,,,,,,, i get it. the reason i responded on this topic to you is that although i had many reasons for om paying fh cs originally one of them was for the "revenge" factor. i was never the same old me until i let go of that part.

so i know how holding on to that can eat at ones inner self.


kt,,,,,,,,,, i think that you are still looking at your situation in the wrong light. i feel that you see the ow as being in control.

it is about attitude. you need to take the controling attitude. sure she may do things that don't meet with you and h's approval. but being able to control which school (i know this is important to you) or when oc visits is not what i am talking about. i had all those thing and more with exgf.

what i am talking about is taking the positive attitude that you and h are in oc's life to stay (if that is what you decide with h) and that no matter what she does, you will always be there. don't let the small stuff get to you and don't let her control your emotions, anger, disgust, telling her off. if that happens she is manipulating you and she is in control.

what is important is the relationship between your family and oc. everything else is small stuff. just keep showing oc that you all love her(?). if she says that ow said this or that just let it go and tell her that everybody makes mostakes usually because they don't understand everything.

let it role off your back like water off a duck. believe me i know it's hard. but you will win the war not the battle.

in my case exgf was always hiding #1s. she was continually 1 -2 hours late for my scheduled and agreed upon pick up times. but i never exploded at her and never let #1s see that i was upset with his mom. that would have only pushed him closer to her which would have distanced him from me.

here's an example; did you ever try and tell a teenage daughter that the guy she likes is no good. there is no way on this green earth you can make her see what you are saying and the harder you push the more she feels she likes him.

i hope all works out for you and h.

pops, you are right...to a point.

Yes, I definately feel that OW is in control and that irks me to no end. I am trying hard to regain the control of my life that I actually have instead of allowing OW to call all the shots.

I did always feel like telling OW off. I still want too some days but I take control and don't. It helps to vent here before I do any real damage and ruin things for OC. That is not my intention. I am getting better @ not allowing OW to control my emotions or my responses, at least the ones towards her, not letting my emotions get the best of me.

Yes, there are some issues that H and I will not give in on and the school is one of those. We are willing to compromise, always have been. We are willing to seek another attorney to help us assert our rights in that area and to help clear up any visitation conflicts also.

I think that is in the best interest for OC, to have everything clear.

I honestly believe we are in this for the long haul. The only thing that will stop C w/ OC will be OW. OR if for some reason we moved out of state or something then it would have to be during summer or something like that.

Everyday is better and better and instead of 2 steps forward and 3 back, it's more forward and only an occasional set back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Yep, it just takes time......yes, it feels like a FOREVER amount of time.LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kt,
I know about being on a low income, we have one provider and 6 mouths to feed plus we pay a CS obligation that is now a tad bit smaller than our mortgage alone!

My question is this....
How do you find an attorney that is willing to work with you for all this court stuff?

One of the factors of our consideration for NC is the fact that we just could not, on our income, keep up with the attorney fees, court costs etc.

Ironically, we have two children before it went to court and the court considered only one of our children saying I can get a job to support my other children. (And this while ex-ow was on welfare...no one told her to get off her fat [censored] and get a job, did they? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

I'm still amazed that I paid my atty $3,000 to get a $300 increase in my child support from my legitimate ex-husband! (and he's worse than any ex-mm that is trying to avoid paying CS, I can assure ya!)

Hopefully, if and when our child support money comes in from "Wild Bill"...things should even out for us.

I was thinking how lucky you are to get atty's that you can afford. We wiped out our entire retirement fund with legal fees the last three years.

Twiisty

by twiisty:Ironically, we have two children before it went to court and the court considered only one of our children saying I can get a job to support my other children. (And this while ex-ow was on welfare...no one told her to get off her fat [censored] and get a job, did they?)
****************
****************

The judge told me the same thing!!!!! AND OW was working but the DA said that OW was NOT working and had no income!!!!?????

From what I have read from you I think we have comparable "economic status's". We had to borrow the $$$$ to pay for 1st lawyer and she totally sucked.

As soon as first CS order came down I got pro-active and started to watch my ol' grandma to make up the difference. ("home health care provider", gram has alzheimers w/ dementia) this allowed me to still stay home w/ and homeschool our children but get some $$$$. Then I asked for more hours to get extra $$$ to pay back my parents for the lawyer.(they refinanced their house so were able to lend us the cash)

We had planned on begging and borrowing from H aunt for the attorney tomorrow but H did extra well @ work this month so we might be able to swing it ourselves, or @ least part of it. (he's a car salesman)

So I totally understand your top ramen diet! LOL

Also, I researched, researched and researched for myself all the available opportunities to "do it yourself". It's not easy but it helped. The last CS hearing (last month) H represented himself. It's all about being quick witted against the DA and being assertive. The court facilitator helped H fill out the paperwork (free) and file (got a fee waiver) and then H represented himself.

The courts also had a booklet full of attorney that are supposedly "inexpensive", or take payments. That's where we got our first 'stupid' lawyer.

I would try and do as much as you can yourself, like up to filing and then hire an attorney for representation just that day if you cannot afford one to handle everything. This puts more responsibility & stress on yourselves.

If you are assertive and willing then you can try to represent yourself but you have to be brave & VERY assertive. The DA tries to intimidate and take advantage. This is very scary.

It really all depends on how much it's all worth to you.

If we could go back, you know we would have done it different---only hired lawyer for 1st CS hearing, then just paid CS & be done w/it.

If we could afford it, we would never represent ourselves. I want to know how you find a really good, agressive one. The other one we had could really 'talk the talk' but when we actually got to court, didn't want to step inside the courtroom, wanted us to just agree to everything!

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

KtB~

I went back to see exactly why I used the word disrupting, because I know I try really hard not to put words in another's mouth.

I found this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why? for the same reason a woman can ask for nothing for 4 (or however many) years and then disrupt the man's life and family & come knocking on the door for CS. For the same reason that there is no statue of limitations (in some states) to file for CS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see why I used the word, but I apologize for obviously not reading your post very carefully. The above quote is your response to what Mo5 had asked, and her question had nothing to do with CS, so perhaps that's why I didn't catch the significance you placed on CS being a disruption.

Most of the time your posts regarding C have to do with the fact that the C itself is such a disruption and a mistake. Rarely have you mentioned the fact that the CS is a disruption.

I agree with you, the amount the OC was initially awarded compared to what was left to take care of your family was a major disruption. It was grossly unfair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We thought since OW originally said she wanted 'nothing' and now was asking for "something" that OW was now inviting us and wanted us in OC life. We naively thought, "how can you be there financially for OC and not there in every other way?" We stupidly thought, "since OW is contacting us, why wouldn't we be involved?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've mentioned this quite a bit.

First, even though she said she wanted nothing, why didn't your H look into his options, his rights, his obligations, etc, at the time? Why did he take her word for it?

Secondly, I've wondered, and I believe I've asked you before--Did you ever ASK the ow what she was after? Ask her if she was expecting C along with the CS? Try to find out what her agenda was? Did your attorney ever ask? I don't get why you assumed she wanted C just because she then needed CS. I just don't understand how you all could've gone through such a long process, fighting for C on assumptions only. Did you truly, really want C, no matter what ow wanted? If so, then hey, more power to ya! To only seek C because you assumed that was what ow wanted when she sought CS, is confusing to me. Did you ever think, hey, this CS is awful and unfair, but ok, so it's something we're obligated to do, but at least we don't have to have C, no one can force us to have C, not the ow, not even the law??

KtB, there are so many posters on this board. So many different stories and situations. The one thing most of us have in common, is that each of us at one point in time has made the decision either for or against C. Whatever decision each of us has made, we have gone on with our decision, and made the best of what we have chosen. Rarely do you hear anyone complain and regret the path they are on, once they've made the decision for or against C. I guess that's why I don't get you. You and your H have made a decision for C but you continually say you wish you hadn't made that decision. You've said it's the 2nd biggest mistake of your lives. The decision you've made doesn't have to be a forever decision, you have the power to change it if it's making your life miserable. Don't you think it's better to do it now rather than later, while your children and oc are relatively young?

Do you get where I'm coming from? It's frustrating to hear you. Imagine if I sat here all the time talking about, "Oh, I should've sought CS from x-om--I wish my OC had C with x-om--NC has been a huge mistake--etc, etc..." I'm almost certain a few posters would come along and say things such as, "AD, what, are you nuts??--AD, your baby doesn't need C w/ x-om, your H is all the dad he will ever need--AD, you and your H made a decision, move on or change it, but stop griping..."


Also, you've used the following terminology many times. I've always wondered if this is how you view your H? If you had NC w/ OC, I would agree with the view, but seeing as you have C, I hope you view him as the father he is. How could ow view him as the father, and respect his rights if even you see him as a sperm donor? Again, don't want to put words in your mouth, that's why I'm asking if you're referring to your H whenever you say it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It would be nice if sperm donors could CHOOSE to sign away thier rights from the very beginning---then there would be no confusion like that. NO rights means no rights and no obligations either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One more thing...didn't your ow request for your H to terminate his rights at one point in the process? Did ow realize that meant no CS? You said it wasn't legally possible anyway? That stinks, because it seems that would've been a good solution for you and H--NC and no CS.

Tell me, if money was NOT an issue, would you terminate C? I ask this, based on the following:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But things are different now, CS is lower and visitation is more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The smiley face after "visitation is more" totally threw me for a loop, recalling your constant comments on C being a mistake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

KtB, when I think of your situation, I'm reminded of the commericial...I believe it's a Visa Card ad. Dad and son at a baseball game, ...The voice over says something like, "Two tickets to the game, $80.00--Two hot dogs, and two cokes, $15.00--Time spent together, PRICELESS"

I wonder if the disruption of CS could be a price you are willing to pay, (even if it has to go back up), in order to have peace and normalcy in your M and in your family? A peaceful life and M, without disruption and drama from ow, seems to me...to be priceless.

Just my thoughts and observations...

~ad

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>