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#827130 03/31/04 10:49 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB] When in the throes of the A - I truly "did" believe xMM that our situation WAS unique, special and that he really DID love me like no other. Mea culpa mea culpa... I was young, naive, foolish and didn't know any better.

=^^= Young and foolish is something we all were. When I was married the first time back in the stone age, my husband cheated on me and my response was to cheat back. The marriage lasted a predictable couple years. I was even an OW and didn't know it. We all do stupid things when we are young and learning life's lessons.

It took a year after having my son that I finally wisened up. Why so long?

=^^= Youth? Followed by the hatchlings of wisdom? Like all of us?

Who knows... But I DID finally realize what kind of person he truly was.

=^^= Young and stupid too? Or just selfish?

I've talked to a couple of people that were in A's since then, and the first things out of their mouths is "but our situation is different....". My first thoughts? Just wait. You'll see that it's not.

=^^= But, it doesn't matter to the people beginning or sustaining an affair. They won't believe you...or care. There's a joke about an A where the two people are "making bacon" on the RR tracks with the train coming but they don't stop screwing. I forget the punch line but it had something to do with "finishing" before the train sliced them to ribbons, making the point that not even a locomotive bearing down on a person is going to keep them from doing what they want to do and the powerfulness of an A. Everyone thinks they are the exception.

That being said... I will never EVER feel guilty about my son.

=^^= Why would you feel guilty about HIM? He had nothing to do with any of it...he is the outcome, not the cause. And a precious joy to you.

I will always feel guilty about my part in the affair, but at this point in my life, it is in my past.

=^^= All anyone can do is move forward. We all have tons of things we regret in our lives...I've got a closet full. Mine just aren't about any A...but they are still terrible things I have done in my past that have either hurt someone I loved or hurt myself, and while most of them went life altering, they were painful experiences just the same and my fault. My deepest regret was/is giving my son up for adoption (for myself) and for any suffering my son endured because of me. I often wish I could turn back the clock, knowing what I know now, and do everything differently and make different and better choices. I always wonder if choosing other paths would have been better than the ones I chose and what the other outcomes would have been...where is that time machine? I pray for forgiveness and insight and ask God to soothe whatever injuries I caused my sons.

all the bickering is done between the OW/xOW and BW/xW and the one person that is TRULY responsible for the whole mess doesn't speak at all. It reminds me of junior high when these two girls used to fight

=^^= Most MM are conflict avoiders and these boards are riddled with conflict to avoid. My husband is extremely curious about what both sides say and will occasionally read the boards and he is mostly appalled and sometimes terrified, especially when he reads TOW (hahaha)which is laughable. He offers to write posts occasionally to answer questions from a WS POV, but I just tell him "thanks anyway" and he lets out this huge sigh of relief and settles down in front of the TV surfing channels. He looks "forward" and rarely looks back and says that when in those quiet moments he DOES look back, it makes him so sad he did all the things he did that he can hardly live with himself. So, his solution is to not look back as much as possible. But, he doesn't know what to do with that guilt. It's like he is lacking in solutions and hopes CS is enough. He says he wonders about OC and hopes she is OK and happy, but she remains ellusive to him because he has never seen her or met her. Since there is no bond, he just prays for her because there isn't much else he can do.

It would be nice if we could just discuss things on these boards, since there is rampant lurking on both sides, for "insightful purposes" and not take everything said so personally rather than watch the attempts at conversation deteriorate into one-liner insults in a feeble attempt to discredit someone rather than thoughtful responses. It is so 7th grade study hall to me...I know exactly what you are saying. No one gives anyone a chance. Instead they pick apart everything you say line by line, leaving out the truth entirely by replacing it with myths, while disecting it to the point where it is unrecognizable then make the most inane remarks about that are completely out of context, unrecognizable and make no sense whatever. Kind of like lynch mob mentality and extremely counterproductive and grossly immature. But, if you step back and just look at the over-reaction and where they come from, it is hilarious. Once you understand where it is coming from, you can't take it personally because it has nothing to do with you and everything about someone's inability to accept reality. It's tough to look within ourselves and realize that we ourselves are the architects of our own misery. It is human nature to want to blame someone else.

Interesting post, Joshmom. Thanks for your clarity.

Cat =^^=

#827131 03/31/04 11:06 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JoshMom:
<strong> There are plenty of women that have babies to hang onto the life that they have, married women included. How many times do you hear of a W that gets pregnant to hang onto a marriage? I remember there was a BW here a while ago whose H had an OC and she desperately wanted another child. He didn't. She ended up pg. Was that planned by both of them? Was he happy about it?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= That's true. I remember that. Having a marriage contract does not give anyone the right to do this even if it is more acceptable because of the marriage. That situation was so sad because the husband was so angry and resentful and with good reason. But, I think a lot of women are desperate to have another child after an A as a way to symbolically reclaim their marriage. Then they end up with one more responsiblity to interfere with their recovery because it is a lot harder to concentrate on just the "two of you" if there is a third party making a debut too soon in their lives. They could be using it as a quick fix band aid, but I don't know if I am accurate there or not. Just seems that way to me. Even being "fixed" I recall feeling a deep desire to conceive after D-day with emotions running rampant and feeling so empty. I think there are a lot of babies born that way that probably would never have existed otherwise. I would think this is a pretty logical response to rejection, loss and grief...not a good idea but understandable, I suppose.

Well, I've spent three hours [censored]-time on this computer and I'm not getting anything done again today. This has been fascinating but I've got to get moving and get some stuff done and stop procrastinating.

Have a great day

Cat =^^=

#827132 03/31/04 01:27 PM
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**oops.. double post**

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: JoshMom ]</small>

#827133 03/31/04 01:28 PM
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Catnip - in response to what you say about the back and forth on the boards, I think a HUGE problem is that the written word is so misconstrued. What someone writes may make a helluva lot of sense to them, but someone else reading it may take it the complet opposite way. If all of us were to get together in a huge room some time, I'd be willing to bet that more of us would get along than not get along.

#827134 03/31/04 02:40 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB] Catnip - in response to what you say about the back and forth on the boards, I think a HUGE problem is that the written word is so misconstrued. What someone writes may make a helluva lot of sense to them, but someone else reading it may take it the complet opposite way.

=^^= I don't know about that. I don't seem to misconstrue anything I read and I don't know anyone here who does. I understand what someone is trying to say. I don't put words in anyone's mouth or accuse them of ridiculous motives or assume that they are being nefarious in some way. I accept what is said at face value. I mean, where is this "picking at scab" thing coming from? It's so funny! How do they get that? I truly think no one really reads, comprehends or gives thoughtful consideration to anything that is written. It seems they pick and chose what they want to read and then react like wet and hysterical hens if they read a sound bite that's off their radar. A more closed bunch of hens I've never seen. I edited my posts on TOW for spelling errors and the reaction was absolutely the funniest and most comical thing I had ever seen. The over-reactions and out in left field judgments were ridiculous and then making all kinds of bizarre assumptions...I thought no wonder these gals are in such a mess...they can't even think in their paranoia. Much ado about a lot of nothing.

If all of us were to get together in a huge room some time, I'd be willing to bet that more of us would get along than not get along.

=^^= Maybe. I know I would try. The thing is that I bet all the gals from MB would show up and only a couple of TOW's would show up in comparison...I know you would show up and be open to anything. It's a lot easier to bash someone on these boards than to face them and look into their eyes and see their humanity.

Cat =^^=

#827135 03/31/04 02:57 PM
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I lurk on both mb and TOW. I certainly understand the OW's pain.

I saw Catnips posts...and have seen them in the past and I agree that they are picked apart and analyzed.

There is one poster in particular over there...who isn't a BS or OW, and I swear, she is the main **** stirrer of the bunch.

She cuts/pastes/analyzes...and instead of discussing a topic, she is disecting the words...trying to appear intelligent.

I would LOVE to see her on this board and actually DEBATE a point...she'd never be able to do it.

Catnip..if you ever feel the need to post on TOW again, take it up to General.

Really, the posters on the childrens board are down to about 5 regulars...and I swear it is BECAUSE you can NOT have a sane debate on the board...In fact it seems there are OW who post more on THIS board than their own..

Again, go to general if you want to explore opposing vieww.

#827136 03/31/04 03:13 PM
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Abigailz

Ahhhh....reason and intelligence. What a breath of fresh air.

Thanks for the heads up. And the vindication.

Bless your heart.

cat =^^=

#827137 03/31/04 03:39 PM
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I was finally set over the edge with the responses to your post this morning on TOW. Instead of commenting/debating/discussing the points you made you were told (once again) to get off the board...then were told that you need to 'evaluate yourself' and stop picking at your scabs, etc....again, the pseudo-intellectual babble they like to spew because THEY CAN'T enter into discussion. I'd be willing to bet that is why some come here to talk...i.e. joshmom.

She can discuss with you HERE, but not on her own board...that is sad.

and..that one poster who CONSTANTLY lets EVERYONE know that she is NOT 'one of them'...she's not a OW or a BS...how many times does she say that...and not just in her signature line.

If she REALLY was an advocate for the OC, she would be attempting to bridge the gap, NOT drive a wedge further.

#827138 03/31/04 04:05 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> needtomoveon,
Thank you so much for the answer. But I'm not just talking about MM walking away from a child. I'm talking about all men.
I understand what you said and it makes some very good points but I'm still reading that if a women decides she cannot parent a child for whatever reasons then it is a selfless act but a man is a conflict avoider.
Do you not agree that even though his reasons are not the same as a women's that does not make them any less valid ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I understand what your saying. I would say there are woman who are conflict avoiders too. Either way there is no difference on the reasons. Does that make sense?

#827139 03/31/04 04:11 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by full house:
<strong> Giving a child up for adoption is the decision of both parents, by law the father has to be notified. I think a father walking away from a child whether or not planned is abandonment, the same for mothers who walk out on their children, which happened to my girlfriend when she was very small. Its running from your responsibilities. No matter how we feel, everything we do has consequences. It is sad to find yourself in this predictament. And truly I think i would rather not have a man involved in my childs life (when I have chosen to keep this child) if he truly does not want it. So I cant imagine forcing someone to be a part of a life they do not care about. It just seems that your asking for more problems and sorrow. So even though i feel yes both people should be responsible for the life of this child, and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility. But I firmly believe that the responsibility should be that the child is taken care of financially, so that she lives in the matter that all your children should live. The love and support emotionally should be by the parent or parents that choose to be with the child and truly want the child in their lives. Does this make sense or am I just rambling....trying to explain but sometimes I just dont have a way with words. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH makes perfect sense. I agree with you.

#827140 03/31/04 04:20 PM
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needtomoveon & Fullhouse,

***and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility.***

So you think anyone that puts a child up for adoption is wrong ?

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

#827141 03/31/04 05:21 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> needtomoveon & Fullhouse,

***and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility.***

So you think anyone that puts a child up for adoption is wrong ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JT, absolutly postively NOT. Your talking to someone who went through years of infertilty. It's the greatest gift someone can give someone. All I'm saying is it has to be right. Let me give you a couple of examples. I have many friends who have adopted. I can't give the examples now but will get back to this.
I just did not want you to think I thought that.

#827142 03/31/04 06:12 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by abigailz:
<strong> I was finally set over the edge with the responses to your post this morning on TOW. Instead of commenting/debating/discussing the points you made you were told (once again) to get off the board...then were told that you need to 'evaluate yourself' and stop picking at your scabs, etc....again, the pseudo-intellectual babble they like to spew because THEY CAN'T enter into discussion. I'd be willing to bet that is why some come here to talk...i.e. joshmom.

She can discuss with you HERE, but not on her own board...that is sad.

and..that one poster who CONSTANTLY lets EVERYONE know that she is NOT 'one of them'...she's not a OW or a BS...how many times does she say that...and not just in her signature line.

If she REALLY was an advocate for the OC, she would be attempting to bridge the gap, NOT drive a wedge further. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">abigailz.. or should I say your TOW name? You and the person in question seem to have a hate-hate relationship, and bashing her over here accomplishes what??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

#827143 03/31/04 06:25 PM
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Please everyone !!!

We've had a really good dialog going on here. Lets not start a lot of trash talk between boards.

#827144 03/31/04 06:28 PM
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Thanks jtigger... I really don't see the problem with having dialog here AND there... But I don't like the "they said there.. we said here" stuff. There's just no point in it, except to ruffle feathers. We're supposed to be here to HELP, not hinder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

#827145 03/31/04 06:33 PM
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Joshmom

I think bashing only occurs when someone is lying about someone. Abigailz is telling the truth and speaking what is the obvious. Is blind loyalty required even when someone is clearly out of line and damaging your own site with the ridiculous banter?

Regardless who Abigailz is, anyone with any reasonable thought process must be frustrated with the idiocy and the silliness of the poster in question.

If they were all like you, we wouldn't be having this conversation because while we definitely disagree on many issues, there is enormous respect, at least on this end. And we treat each other decently.

You're not a stupid woman, Joshmom. Even you can see the damage she is doing to your site and it's really too bad because it serves no one. Who can take all that stuff she says seriously? It just seems like there are some people out there that get off on inciting disharmony.

Cat =^^=

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

#827146 03/31/04 06:46 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> Joshmom

I think bashing only occurs when someone is lying about someone. Abigailz is telling the truth and speaking what is the obvious. Is blind loyalty required even when someone is clearly out of line and damaging your own site with the ridiculous banter?

Regardless who Abigailz is, anyone with any reasonable thought process must be frustrated with the idiocy and the silliness of the poster in question.

If they were all like you, we wouldn't be having this conversation because while we definitely disagree on many issues, there is enormous respect, at least on this end. And we treat each other decently.

You're not a stupid woman, Joshmom. Even you can see the damage she is doing to your site and it's really too bad because it serves no one. Who can take all that stuff she says seriously? It just seems like there are some people out there that get off on inciting disharmony.

Cat =^^= </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JM: Well, thanks, I think I'm pretty smart myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But there are people that get off on inciting disharmony. "conversations" happen on the general board, or in PM's and I'm not privy to those. I happen to like that particular poster very much, and think that she contributes quite a bit to the site. Does that make me stupid because others don't agree with her? Sometimes *I* don't agree with her. But that's the beauty of this world. Everyone has their own opinion, and they're entitled to it. I suppose I started this by saying that to Abigailz.. but this really is turning into a threadjack, and that was not my intention. I'm sorry JTigger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

#827147 03/31/04 07:16 PM
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posted by pops: so she lashes out at the easiest target she sees and that is the bw. the ow's anger is truely at the mm but since he wants nothing to do with her know ow strikes at his bw in an attempt to hurt him.
**********
**********

This is EXACTLY what my darling H says! EXACTLY!!!

I wonder to him, "what does OW have against me? what did I ever do to her? And why take it out on BC?"

And THAT is his answer.

It still irritates the HECK out of me. Why can't she take her "issues" to the one she has them w/ instead of me. Or at least go get her own therapist to B*!(# to.

Sorry to change the subject.

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This thread is so long that I did not have the time to read it all, so I apologize if this question was already addressed. I have often wondered why a woman (OW in my case) can get pregnant, decide to give a child up for adoption for WHATEVER reason (I don't want to debate the reasons), and she can give her child up without contact OR CHILD SUPPORT and this is OK and even considered to be good for the child. BUT a man (for example a MM with OC) can't decide to essentially give this OC up for adoption (even if the person adopting or taking responsibility for raisin the child is its mother or OW) and not see the child AND NOT pay CS? When the OW gets pregnant she CAN make the decision to give the child up for adoption and no one will be coming after her for $$$ (on TOW, many of the OW say they are getting CS for revenge or so MM is not let off the hook). Why can't a man make the same decision without someone coming after him for $$$. Why does a woman have more rights than a man? And why does a man have a RESPONSIBILITY to pay if he would have chosen to give the OC up for adoption, but he OW would not have any responsibilty to pay if she gave the OC up for adoption? The OW see themselves as having all the rights, but only the amount of responsibilty that they CHOOSE. The MM has no choice and has to be financially resoponsible b/c of the OW's CHOICE to keep this child. Seems very unfair to me.

#827149 04/01/04 06:32 PM
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4tbs,,,,,,,,,, i think that you are confusing adoption with single parenthood. if the ow gave the child up for adoption with the bio dads consent then niether would pay cs.

but should the ow give the give the oc to the bio dad for him to raise and sign away all her rights to the child then there is a good chance that SHE will have to pay cs.

the trouble is that nature has built in a device that makes it ALMOST impossible for a woman to give up a child that she gives birth to.

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