SH advised a poster that behaviour changes may not be enough to recover a M...belief changes are necessary. My head hurts thinking about this lol. I know it makes sense but if a FWS takes steps towards just compensation and puts EPs in place, how do you know it's the belief system (since you can't see these things) and not just the behavior that is changed?

I question this for my own marital R. I can see H's behavior but I know his belief system is different than mine in some aspects. How do you reconcile the two? I don't see my H ever understanding what his A had done to me. What are the odds of marriage building successfully if there is still that disconnect regardless of the behavior?

I knew DH's belief system had changed when he started making judgments (to me) about other people's adultery/behaviors as well as saying he will not go see certain movies which go easy on adultery.

DH has expressed more black/white right/wrong thinking ... indicates a belief system change.

There's more, but that's all I can come up with on short notice.

LOL Pep. I'll be waiting...

I have struggled with this too, although I have decided recently to stop fretting about what I cannot control, and I feel more at peace.

For me, it was not so much (or perhaps, not just) that H does understand what he did to me. It was that he did not believe that his grabbing "fun" was wrong and harmful, even if I never knew. It is the old "tree falling in a forest" question for him, to which his answer would probably be "who cares?"

He has changed his job and is with me whenever he is not working. He has thrown new energy into the family and seems devoted to me. However, if he still believes that a discreet affair is okay, then I am not safe (duh...do you think?!)

I have been re-reading HNHN, and what strikes me even more strongly this time is that Dr H says very little about beliefs. He concentrates on behaviour. In fact, his rules on EPs suggest that an attitude shift is unnecessary. All that is necessary is that you never allow someone else to meet your needs even a little bit.

Obviously, this is a bit different from what his son says.

Lawdhavemercy

Ok, Mr Pep sez to me

"I broke your heart. I'll spend the rest of my life making it up to you."

Are we related?

Gotta go. I have a sick little one to tend too. Like SugarCane said, I don't recall reading about a changed belief system. That would be a plus. H does believe his A was horribly wrong, immoral and what not but some the things that he believes don't fall in line with mine.

I'll be back.....

Give the little one a kiss from me, and tell her to tell her mother to write to me.

I totally agree with this concept. A person who has an affair has not only let someone else meet EN, they have also bought into some lies that made it "okay" to have the A. The person needs to not only figure out what those thinking errors and wrong attitudes are, s/he needs to purge them from her/his belief system so that the same thinking/attitudes don't lead down the same rabbit hole. There are levels to healing.

1. behaviors, which I think HNHN and SA deal with nicely
2. thinking errors
3. emotional healing
4. spiritual healing

IMO, SA stops at #1, when actually there are 3 more levels of healing that can (and dare I say SHOULD) happen.

Hi wonderin3,

I used to read your thread when I was a scared lurker here. I was upset by what transpired for you. How about an update? I hope things are going well.

Hi Sugar Cane,

I'm glad to see you moved from lurking to sharing your insights! I tend to drop in every anniversary of D Day (I'm at 2 now), but the in between months are so busy that I don't make it here much. I guess that is a good sign, since not needing to post (for me) means not being in such a desperate place.

I'm moving along the healing path. I've learned SO much, and I've been SO blessed to find a support group of women who've all experienced sexual betrayal. We are all about 2 years out, so we have much in common and find eachother's insights/situations very helpful to our own journeys.

I've also been very fortunate in that I found a counselor who is not only a smart cookie, she also experienced infidelity 20+ years ago and "knows." Her marriage made it. She claims to be head over heals in love with her FWH, which is a huge encouragement to me! She has been incredibly helpful. I can't say enough about her!

As for my H...he too continues his healing journey, though at a much slower pace. It has been really painful for him to dive into the reasons he made the choice, his thinking errors, his wrong attitudest, etc. Its like looking your worst mistake in the eye over and over, which I do believe is no fun at all, but you can't heal what you won't feel. He has done exceptionally well in the area of behavioral healing. He has never broken NC, he is meeting my EN (though I don't let them count for much just yet), he put in EPs that satisfy me, and his pre A behaviors (criticisms/put downs/DJs/IBs/etc) are not an issue (thank God! I don't think I'd be with him if they were still a problem).

I have worked really hard to disassociate and break my codependent tendencies, so my goal is not to focus on his path except to determine if my bottom lines are being met. I finally accept that I cannot do a darn thing about his choices/thinking/feeling/etc. My only choice is weather or not to put up with them . My mantra is: I didn't cause his affair, I can't fix his thinking errors/wrong attitudes, and I can't control his behaviors/thinking. With this, I really release him to God - but Oh do I pray for him!!

I'm just believe that God will provide for me whether or not my H is in the picture and whether or not we make it 2 more years or a lifetime. It has helped me find peace with the ups and downs of R.

Currently, my feelings are flat for my H. That scares me, because after 2 years of working, I wonder if I'll ever feel for him again. According to my C, this is often a crisis point for many at 2-3 years for exactly that reason. This makes many vulnerable to having their own A. I've still got a wall up and won't let my H's efforts touch me much. I have to see him work a bit more on the deeper levels of healing and keep at it for the long haul before I'm willing to be vulnerable to him. Not sure if that is good or bad. It is what it is.

Anyway, I have a lot of hope. I'm setting the bar high, because in the end, I want to say that I feel "chosen" again, and the only way I believe I'll fell that is if he works HARD to keep me . Best,

Wonderin

As a BS, I want the change in attitude too, but when I read Dr Harley I can see that the only attitude that needs to be adopted is "I will not leave my marriage open to an attack", or "I will not let anyone other than my spouse meet my ENs."

We do not have to have a philosophical (for want of a better word) reason why. The attitude can be adopted out of pure selfishness: "I do not want to go through all that again" or "I do not want to lose my spouse and kids". As long as the EPs are rigourously enforced, the end result is the same: a protected marriage. With enjoyable time spent together, it will also be a happy marriage.

I'm not sure that SaA stops at level 1.

It deals with thinking errors such as those that suggest friendships with the opposite sex are not risky, or that nights apart, travelling jobs and going to bars are not dangerous. It tells us a lot that we do not know about ENs and how they must be met.

It does not deal with emotional healing as a separate exercise, but it suggests that a happy marriage will be the result of using the MB tools. THAT will produce emotional healing.

I'm not sure what you mean by spiritual healing. If you mean repenting to God and trying to live a godly life, I think it recommends that for believers. Certainly there is section on bible study and prayer.

I think I know how you feel; you perhaps want to see the WS's selfish, entitled spirit broken, and to see humble remorse and sorrow. So do I! However, I have had those things for only short periods, just after the D Days. I am now trying to accept that if my H focuses on me, the marriage and our family, then there is emotional peace for me, instead of the misery of the recent past.

If a still unrepentant WS is shown grace and forgiveness (after 3 years of punishment, in my case!), there might be sorrow later on, for wounding me and our marriage, and ultimately himself. That would be excellent.

IMO, MB is much like The AA Program in that they are both behavioral focused. But the goal of working the AA 12 steps is to lead the individual to a spiritual awakening. Example; Step 12 - "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps...."

I think that the same goal (Belief changes/Spirtual awakening) should be expected from a wayward as well. (Within a reasonable amount of time in recovery) A BS must remember, it's typically a process, not an event!


I know SMB would have never considered recovery unless she was certain that I had an evident change in my psyche.

tst, unfortunately
As much as I'd like to think my WW could be rehabilitated, her history and behaviors (as well as some of the "elders" in our A.A. community) suggest that she is incapable of being honest with herself.

With this kind of barrier, recovery is next to impossible.

How I'd prayed she could be brought to the light, but it won't happen in my lifetime.

Your quite right Fred...... but when a person finally hits bottom and is willing to admit they are powerless.....

Well.....


Anything is possible!


I do believe in miracles ya'know.
I am one!

Absolutely correct, tst. However, I refuse to put my life on hold waiting for something that may never happen.

WW left three previous husbands before me. The odds are against her having a "spiritual awakening" at this point.

But I will not close the door on the possibility. Not for me, but for her.

I'm not sure I agree that it will be a happy marriage. My H has spent the last 2 years trying to protect our M, especially where he let his fence get weak. And, I have to admit he has done a good job. I no longer feel compelled to check up on him. We have taken the SA advice and spent as close to 15 hrs a week as possible doing something we enjoy. However, I would in no way say ours is a "happy" marriage. I don't feel "in love" with him. I am simply traveling the R road with him in hopes that one day I will. I need more than just EPs and RC in order to claim a "happy" M. We get along. He has qualities I like. We share 2 beautiful kids. We are good companions...but happily married? Um...No...not yet anyway.

He hasn't earned my heart back. I still hurt when I look at him and think about how much I loved him and sacrificed for him while he was busy loving himself and not giving a second thought to me. I doubt every year we spent together pre A. And it is gonna take a lot more than EPs and fun times for me to start believing that he is loving me before himself again.


True enough. But I'm not sure I would call those thinking errors as much as...trains of thought or belief systems maybe? When I use the term "thinking error" I am referring to distorted thinking...things like minimizing, blame shifting, defensiveness, rationalization, justification, and lying. In the case of my H...many of those were a part of what led to his A.

We check our thinking all the time now. I find that I often fall into justification post d day. I feel "justified" in AO, for example. A lot of times, he'll say something that jsut sounds off to me. When we take a look, we usually find that one of the above is playing into our choice to sin. It is actually very helpful to both of us. But, even now, there are parts of the pre A circumstances that I believe my H cannot see clearly. We are working on IC right now, but eventually, we hope to take a look at it together in MC.

When I mention emotional healing, I am refferring to dealing with the hurts in our past rather than stuffing all the bad as deep as we can and letting it effect our today. I'm talking about facing the ways we hurt each other pre A and making amends. I'm talking about working through forgiveness. And I'm not just talking about me forgiving him but also him forgiving himself.

Spiritual healing to me starts with repentance, but it doesn't end there. Repentance means turing a 180 from prior behavior and showing a broken, contrite heart before God. It means accepting his mercy and grace and then returning to Him full force. It means allowing him to once again be King of your life and allowing him to change you one day at a time, one way at a time.

A happy marriage brought about by meeting ENs and 15 hrs RC isn't gonna cut it...at least not for me. I want the full deal.


I think you are onto something here, but can you wait indefinitely for that? I'm not sure I can. I believe God can do anything. He can surly move my mountain. But I don't believe our M will experience full healing unless each of us are fully, wholeheartidly seeking God. That, I know, is a process and will not happen over night or even over a year or two. We may never arrive, but we should be aiming for that every day. I won't be happy to stay in this M is we aren't moving along in that direction.

Ok, I apologise in advance because my thoughts are all jumbled on this so this post will be a bit rambling.

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment when I read the post about beliefs and behaviours in terms of my own recovery and why it takes 2-5 years to recover from an A.

I think SH was talking specifically about DJ's, AO's, and SD's and it's easy in those cases to see exactly where he is coming from. Most people can bite their lips for a period of time to stop all those LB'ers but unless you believe it is wrong to DJ, AO and be selfish, then the behaviours will likely resurface at some point.

My FWH and I have talked through all our LB'ers and I know that we now both believe it is wrong to be disrespectful, have AO's and be selfish.

Since this post though I've been thinking (always very dangerous for me) about whether it is necessary for deeper beliefs to change in order to truly recover and how this is measureable.

I know that BB believed adultery to be wrong. We talked about it long before we married, but this belief didn't stop him from committing adultery so it's deeper than that. What deep seated belief allowed him to set aside his belief that adultery was wrong?

Is it the "me me me" culture we live in that seems to allow us all to justify or rationalise our behaviours however bad they may be? Is it plain and simple entitlement?

I believe that I am important but I certainly do not believe that the value I place on myself allows me to hurt someone. I don't think my FWH believed he was entitled to hurt anyone, he'd be upset at me if I asked him to kill a spider in the house, yet he did hurt many people.

So what belief did he have that allowed him to act in the way he acted and how do I KNOW that that belief is no longer there.

He can tell me he'll never hurt me again but we are told not to put much credence in what waywards say, so I can look to his behaviours and again they may show me that he won't hurt me but if his deep seated beliefs haven't been addressed then how do us BS's know that the improved behaviours are not just covering up the flawed belief system?

I don't even know if I'm making sense?

I do know that I don't want a recovery in which my FWH merely behaves in a certain way to make me happy but does not really believe that the needs of us are less important that the needs he has.

Is a behavioural approach sufficient for a full recovery? Is RH about ones deepest feelings and beliefs the foundation on which all the behaviours necessary for a good M sit?

Oh Lordy, I so wish I could explain my thoughts better.....

I spoke to my WS yesterday. I said that he is like a chameleon. He will always fit in with the crowd he is with and I believed that if his subsequent behaviours conflicted with his values and beliefs, then it is easier to change those than to change the behaviour because otherwise, he would not be one of the group.

He said that his values and beliefs had not changed. So I asked whether he had always thought that adultery is ok? I wouldn't have been attracted to him if I thought that he thought like that and would certainly not have married him.

He said quietly, that no, he did not think that adultery is ok.
I believe that initially he did change his values to fit his behaviour and as that behaviour became the norm, he forgot completely what his original values were.

In which case, those values still exist albeit hidden by the results of his behaviour. I think the real question is what boundaries need to be put up to stop the behaviour and allow the return of the real person underneath.

You've come through loudly and clearly to me, sere.

About deep-seated beliefs, and how they change to allow adultery:

I can't cite the source offhand, but I know that Dr Harley has said that he has seen absolutely every type of person commit adultery. He said something like, "sadly, those with strongly-held religious beliefs and strong moral convictions commit affairs". Consider the different kinds of people we never believed would do it and who did. Church ministers, women who were virgins on their wedding day, people who ran bible study classes in their neighbourhood, the Northern Ireland politician (Robinson) who was such a staunch Christian, marriage counsellors, people who set up orphanages or animal shelters...

Genuinely-held beliefs and values do not seem to preclude people from affairs. Well, yes of course, they do for some; not ALL church ministers have affairs! 50% of married people have them but the other 50% do not, so some of us with beliefs have affairs and some do not. We do not know why, not really.

So, if we want a change in beliefs from our spouse, we might be taking a misleading path to protection. For one thing, we cannot actually know what someone's beliefs really are. We cannot really know another's mind. A WS who is given the condition of remorse and repentance before being allowed back into the marriage can demonstrate those things, but the BS cannot really know whether they feel them. I'll bet many a BS looks at the "repentant" spouse and wonders whether the remorse is real. If they were that good a liar during the affair, how can the BS ever know them again?

It is almost as if Dr Harley treats beliefs as too unreliable to build a marriage upon. You cannot know whether your spouse is one of the 50% of practising Christians who will have an affair or one of the 50% who will not. Perhaps they cannot know, either - think of the many people who say "I never thought I would have an affair" but did.

So, do we stop placing importance on beliefs and simply place importance on actions? EPs, in other words?

BR, does your H know that adultery is wrong? He probably DOES, doesn't he? See, what I think Steve is talking about is this: in order for someone to commit a crime, they must change their belief system to convince themselves it is ok. For example, look how many WS's tell themselves that they have been mistreated [rewrite history] and have "given and given" and "by GOD it is my turn to be happy now!!" They change their belief system to rationalize the crime. Rarely do you see remorse right away. And that is because the adulterer has convinced himself that wrong is right.

The reason a person goes through these logical gymnastics is because the pull of their addiction is more powerful than their LOGIC. This is what motivates them to change their BELIEFS rather than their behavior.

But, since feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS, just removing the source of the addiction is usually enough to change that persons beliefs back to normal. Once the pull of the addiction is gone, they will no longer have to engage in practices of mental masturbation that serve to justify the unjustifiable.

In other words, changing the behavior changes the BELIEFS. But if a person is still foggy can still rationalize an affair when they are not addicted, then the marriage is probably doomed to more of the same.

Perhaps I have this wrong, but my reading from that thread is that SH was telling the poster that HER behavioural changes were not enough to effect real change in the marriage without a change in her H's beliefs and that HER changes would not necessarily be enough to bring that about. I thought it was specific counsel in a response to a sitch where one spouse remains unwilling to get on the recovery train.

I think you're onto something SC.

Before getting married I suppose we all question our future spouses about their beliefs to make sure we will be compatable. Back then when BB told me how disgusting the thought adultery was I had no reason to doubt that because we were so in love and his behaviours seemed to match with the beliefs.

So I put too much faith in the belief and mistakenly thought the belief would somehow protect him from bad behaviour.

I can understand now that we're all capable of putting our beliefs to one side in the right circumstances.

Yuck, I'm not sure I like that realisation.

So what we're now saying is that our beliefs need to be protected? And it's not our beliefs that protect us?

I feel so naive sometimes.....

Wow. I think that was beautifully put.

You're a philosopher and you didn't even know it.

I wish that rhymed!

I have brain ache.

I thought it might be useful to post something of the discussion that L4 was having with SH and what he appears to have said:

"Regarding AOs and LBs and disrespectful conversations, Steve said that I must enforce boundaries. He said if H crosses a boundary, I should tell H that what I did does not justify disrespecting me in that way. He said how anyone chooses to react to someone else is a choice. Yes, you may make me angry, but I can respond by taking out the garbage, leaving the room, taking a jog, screaming into a pillow, writing in my journal... Yelling at someone isn't the only way to express one's anger. Saying, "You made me angry which is why I am yelling at you," is an incorrect justification for an LB. I am the only one who makes me yell at anyone.

Steve emphasized that it's not just the changing of behaviors that are needed to repair a broken M. (Which is what many MCs focus on.) It's the changing of beliefs.

If you don't think DJs are a bad thing, if someone makes you aware of them you can change your behavior temporarily to stop the DJs. But if you don't change your belief that DJs are bad, your behavior will eventually reflect that belief and the DJs will return.

So, if I want H to stop an LB then I need to not only tell him what the LB is but why and how it hurts me in hopes that he'll see and believe that doing such an LB is a bad thing. He can choose to change a belief and thus change his behavior. Or he can choose not to and keep his behavior. Same as it is for anyone else.

Until one's belief system is corrected (and thus the behavior is legitimate and going to stick), you "need to be a bit guarded, according to Steve."

kerala, you are quite right that if this advice was given in response to L4's particular problem of getting her H on board, then it isn't generally applicable. However, I cannot really tell, even having read the post a few times, whether Steve was talking about L4's specifics.

I do know that he has said the same thing (about belief change) to a BS whose FWS is very much on board with recovery. The BS was asking (if I remember correctly) whether the WS's mechanical practising of EPs would really create a safe marriage, and I believe that Steve's statement about belief change was used then. In other words, no; mechanical changes alone would not protect the marriage. Not for long.

(This is someone who no longer posts here, so I cannot direct you to the thread.)

Confused?

I wish I could say something like "you're a poet and you don't enough know it", but I can't think of anything to rhyme with "philosopher".

This is a great question b_r!!!

Using Pep's example my h thought that way prior to his A and he thinks that way again now. However during the A i am sure he did not or else it would not have happened.

I think it is more like b_r said in that my thoughts about EPs and such are different than his so how do you connect the two.

BB asked me what was wrong earlier and I said "I'm thinking" and he walked away looking very worried.

I think too much. EVERYONE says that about me, like it's a criticism. Anyway, today me thinks they may have a point, I think I've been over-thinking.

I'm going to have to go away and think about it.

I really do not think any WS fully understands the trauma they inflict, BR. So, I am not sure that is needed for recovery.
As to looking at his beleifs, while he may not uderstand the pain, this does not mean he does not understand the wrongfulness of his acts. If his behavior consistently mirrors this, then I think you are safe.

Actually guys, you are going at this from the wrong angle all together. What we believe is not what keeps us safe as if we just believe the right thing in a vacuum.

The MISTAKEN belief that being a Christian means being incapable of sin is the part that needs to change in beliefs. It is believing that LOVE is magic and will always be there that needs to change. It is the notion that there is no need for us to meet our spouse's ENs or to avoid Love Busters in order to remain married and have a growing happy marriage that must come under fire.

We act FROM what we believe. If I believe that I am impervious to having an affair because I read my Bible, go to church or pray every day I am destined to failure. It is by avoiding things that can lead to an affair that I avoid having one, not by believing in God stronger than temptation. He is stronger than any temptation but believing that to be true isn't what keeps me safe.

While we might be able to step up and change what we do for a short time ultimately it will be what we actually believe in that will win out in the end.

And I am NOT talking about a belief in right, and kindness and God....This kind of belief is a fairy tail...

What I am talking about is believing that we must protect ourselves from sinning by doing things a certain way and avoiding doing things another way. It means that I abandon the notion that love happens and act from knowing that it can be built and rebuilt. It means changing the belief that a "good marriage" will never have trouble and that "If you really loved me, you'd know what I need from you..."

ALL of those things need to be challenged.

All of us have things that need have the foundations blown out from under them. What we do, when push comes to shove and our life is on the line comes from what we believe, about ourselves, the world, life, family, love...

If I am an alcoholic, it is not enough that I don't go out drinking tonight. Even if I never go out drinking doesn't matter. What matters is understanding and BELIEVING that I cannot ever have another drink for any reason. Even if I fail a time or two, what matters is that I no longer think drinking is my answer.

We're talking a change in beliefs at a lot of levels here since we all carry stuff that we believe that effects what we do.

If you believe in all the MB concepts, what does your interaction with your spouse look like? If you believe this stuff works, what does that do to what you do on a daily, moment by moment basis?

Mark

My head hurts too Sere..

What does it mean if you have these beliefs but sometimes you just can't be arsed with them?

If you don't - yet - believe that this stuff works,

(because it seems unlikely or you do not quite accept behaviourism or you cannot believe without evidence)

and you do it anyway, on a daily, moment-by-moment basis,

will anyone, and in particular your spouse, be able to tell the difference?

Will you achieve just as happy a marriage anyway?

If you think creatively and find ways to spend enjoyable time with your spouse, if you do not let anyone else meet your ENs, if you each communicate your needs and work on meeting the other's, if you do not LB etc,

do you stand a chance of creating a happy marriage, even if, like your alcoholic, you do not believe?

Rather more worryingly,

if you DO believe that it works, and you both practise it, can you end up still less than happy?

I think a lot of spouses in recovery feel that way, like wonderin3 seems to be saying.

I like the idea that we need to protect our beliefs. We can do it by using MB program.

I want to believe that I CAN do better this time, but I also believe that believing is not enough, I need some good plan for that. This MB plan.

I thought the other day that now I have lived half of my life with my H. And only now I can say that my parents' home and their belief system doesn't "talk" to me anymore. At least not so much.

Another thought was that being MBer for 8 months makes me a baby in this, and I need to protect my new belief system from my old affair-self for many years before I can say that this new belief system really holds. Seems like a lifelong work:-)

Not just for you, because you have had an affair, Niitse - for all of us. Successful marriage IS a lifelong work.

(You'll have to change your "location" soon. Have you noticed the increased daylight? Hurrah!)

That makes a lot of sense to me niitse

"I need to protect my new belief system form my old affair-self for many years..."

And in keep practising the behaviours of the belief system CONSISTENTLY - all of them.

emphasis mine..... this is sort of what I was thinking. So, is this another of the reasons that it takes up to 5 years to recover, because the WS has to consistently demonstrate that the behaviour changes are leading to and ultimately lead to belief changes, or does it take something more????

If a change in behaviour doesn't necessarily of itself lead to a belief change, and we should not educate our spouses, then how do we determine we are safe in the long term?

I'm going to have a go at answering that myself but I don't totally like the answer I'm coming up with and that is that we can't protect ourselves in the long term. What we do today protects us now but not in a year. What protects us in a years time is what we are doing in a years time. We can only protect ourselves by praticing the rule of M as laid down by Dr H, and if we do that every day then our M's are safe. Let up on those rules and we become unsafe again.

I's prefer an unequivocal "you are safe from adultery forever and ever and ever".

We gotta keep working the program!

Just to give context to that situation, the WH of that poster was on his third EA, and he didn't believe that a "friendship" with a woman was an affair or harmful to the M...so SH thought exposure wouldn't work for him, etc, the WH wouldn't end the EA or protect the marriage until there was a belief system change first.

We are also counseling with SH again...the timing on this thread is funny as Steve just talked to me *yesterday* about my H's belief system regarding his own EPs.

I think what my H was telling himself was "I will never do this again to my family" "W and I protect our M now by meeting each other's ENs" when what he probably should be telling himself is "I have these weaknesses, I am vulnerable to another A, I need to be protecting the M at all times" and *really* understanding what that means. SH told me that shift has started (and explained to me why he believes that)...but that my H still has work to do in terms of really understanding his own ENs and how to protect himself from allowing another woman to meet them, how easily it happens ~ but to let him(SH) work on that. *fingers crossed*

Oh, right. Some of us think b_r is referring to one thread and some to another. I don't know whether it really matters, but I just wanted to clear up that confusion. The thread I quoted from (Looking4's) is not the one with the WH on his third EA.

I don't think that it matters. We're not really discussing them, but US.

OK, I just looked at Looking4's thread. I hadn't read that. Sorry b_r if you weren't referring to Plexle's thread when you started this!

Yeah, what Looking4 said about what Steve explained is true for my H regarding his EPs.

Well i wonder though how much beliefs have to do with the WS changing their behavior.

Like with my h, he believes that members of the opposite sex can be friends. And there have been many on this very forum that would agree with that 100%, that there is nothing wrong it.

However I believe (and always have) that once you are married you should no longer be friends with members of the opposite sex.

I feel that in order for me to truly feel like my h will not cheat again is for him to also BELIEVE that it is wrong to have a friendship with other women.

However if his belief truly is that there is nothing wrong with it, me simply asking him to not do it anymore may work for a while but eventually it will end up that he does it again because he BELIEVES it is okay.

Did that make any sense ..........

Ultimately what protects us is KNOWING that we aren't protected if we choose to place ourselves in tempting situations.

It's RECOGNIZING temptation...

It's a REALIZATION that NONE of us are strong enough to resist temptation - that will power, morality and integrity are UNRELIABLE against temptation.

It's getting that we can ALL succumb to temptation, and therefore choosing NOT to place ourselves in temptation's way.

It's BELIEVING what Dr. Harley says about none of us being immune...As much as I adore Dr. Harley, that isn't a new concept, and I know he would agree...The Bible is clear that mankind is highly susceptible to temptation - from the very first chapter it shows us that, yes? It's no mistake that the Lord's Prayer says, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."

What is scary...What is risky...Is the person who believes that they can practice dangerous behaviors and come out unscathed every single time - that they are somehow above it all - IMMUNE...Trusting someone who thinks this way is a fool's mission...

It's like trusting someone who says :

"I'm great at the game of Russian Roulette - I play that game all the time and I'm still alive!" [So far...It's only a matter of time...]

Or

"I'm an excellent drunk driver! I drive that way constantly and I've never had a DUI or killed anyone!" [YET! It's only a matter of time...]

People that deny their fallibility are to be avoided...I say all this as a repentant and remorseful FWS - I've experienced the scales falling from my eyes and seen not only how horrible my committing adultery was - but I was blessed also by seeing other sins of mine as a result of that repentance - and given mercy and allowed to repent for those also...And that sorrow and remorse for what I've done in the past still doesn't serve to protect me - or Mr. W - What protects us is the understanding that if I put myself back in tempting situations that I would fail again and again...[and vice versa]...Remorse and repentance from past transgressions don't protect you from future temptations...The only thing that does is not putting yourself in those situations...

A change in attitude and heart means being HUMBLE and recognizing our powerlessness over temptation...That serves as the ultimate protection...

Mrs. W

Total sense, SC...He must recognize TEMPTATION and refuse to put himself in those situations...

Mrs. W

What we believe results in what we do. Changing what we do without changing what we believe about it results in temporary changes since we will not be likely to make permanent changes as long as we still think the same way about what we are doing.

If I am doing something that I do not believe is right, I can only do it for so long before I feel that I am sacrificing or being untrue to my beliefs. Therefor, I begin to revert back to my old way of doing things because it supports my belief system.

The poster in question had an affair, in fact two of them though one was before she was actually married but at a time when she was supposed to be in a committed relationship with her soon to be husband. She confessed her transgressions and has been committed to restoration of the marriage but her husband is not buying into recovery yet refuses to accept defeat and move on either.

Her own Love Bank is pretty near bankruptcy since her husband continues to use abusive methods (as defined by Dr Harley - DJs, SDs, AOs, IB, Emotional Dishonesty, even Annoying Habits)in order to get his way. He isn't merely punishing her for the affair or even for two affairs but is simply acting from his belief that nothing he does can result in happiness for himself or others. This is in part due to FOO issues and in part because he has a belief that HE will never be good enough, at least that is my opinion.

Much if not most of his actions predate the affair itself and the affair is simply one more thing he can point to to reinforce his belief that he can never be happy, with his wife or with anyone else for that matter. Rather than seek a solution to his unhappiness, he seems to be inclined toward making his wife as miserable as he can manage.

While this man might actually be able to change his actions and begin doing things that would lead to not only the recovery of his marriage but also to his own healing from past hurts, not just in regard to the affair(s) but in relationships from his past as well, he will not be likely to follow through for any length of time until he accepts responsibility for his own actions and examines why he does things the way he does.

His wife, admittedly a former wayward wife, accepts responsibility for her choices, is having difficulty getting to the root cause of her choices in part due to his total lack of support and undermining any attempts to reconcile her choices with what she now actually believes. She has been doing what she can to meet his ENs, avoid any Love Busters herself and trying to schedule enough RC time with him in order to improve the balance in her account in his Love Bank.

He is stuck, in part because he believes that the entire world is out of kilter, nothing he ever believed was true, that he can't believe anything with certainty now and that none of what he does is having any affect on the condition of his feelings right now. A sign of this is that while he seems to move forward, allows things to improve for a short time, looks as if progress is being made he then reverts to his old ways of doing things and ends up right back where things were before the affair, during the affair and after the affair.

All JMO based on observation...from afar at that.

When I got what appeared to be a boil, I believed it was just a boil and that it would follow the same course as other boils I had during my lifetime. It seemed to follow that course to the letter at first. It swelled, broke open and bled, shrank in size and began to dry up. I believed it was going to heal with no change in what I did.

When it began to bleed and swell again, I believed that if I took care of it by keeping it clean, avoiding breaking it open with any over extension of the skin in the area and kept it covered to prevent further infection it would just heal and I would be done with it. It wasn't until it had doubled in size over a period of three days or so and was showing signs of growth that was becoming dangerously close to exponential that I began to even consider doing anything differently.

My doctors gave me antibiotics in the belief that they would clear up whatever infection was present and that I would begin to heal with no further action by anyone. This is how the body usually deals with infections and so it was a valid belief in most cases.

A week later it had doubled in size again and was now getting dangerously close to disfiguring me for life even if it got no bigger at all. Rather than give me more antibiotics and wait longer to see if it would get better, my doctor and I changed our beliefs and I was operated on to remove the infected tissue and an all out effort was made to find the source of the infection. 25 years earlier the methods of determining the cause did not exist and the infection might have killed me, or caused so much damage that a secondary infection killed me instead.

Once identified the right antibiotic was given and the infection was killed, but I still had an open wound and that required additional procedures, also relatively new in the medical world in order to actually allow me to start healing. Even the dressings that were once used caused further damage and my doctor was amazed to discover that a better option already existed. He changed his belief again to accommodate the new technology and I made faster progress than if the old ways were kept up.

Einstein's definition of insanity begins to apply when we continue doing things a certain way and are getting nowhere. We repeat the same patterns based on what we have always believed to be true and end up repeating the same dumb stuff that got us to where we are and can't seem to figure out how we got there. We take the same road, wind up in the same place and wonder why we aren't where we though we should be.

As it applies to an affair, EPs will only work if you put the right EPs into place and believe that they are right and will keep you from having an affair. If your affair began as a pick up in a singles bar, going to a singles bar might not be a good idea. But if you continue to hang out with single friends, hang out in bars, dance with members of the opposite sex, talk intimately with them and allow them to make Love Bank deposits at every turn you are not going to stop having affairs.

Affairs happen because we believe we are not vulnerable. They happen because we believe that LOVE is magic and we can't fall in love with more than one person in life. They happen because we believe that we can be strong enough to ward off temptation under any and all circumstances we find ourselves in and because we don;t realize that any time we allow someone to do something that tickles our pleasure centers we are bypassing the protection of our feelings.

We don't protect our weaknesses until we believe we have them and we can't begin to avoid exposing them until we know what they are.

If I believe that my wife will be faithful no matter what I do to make her unhappy or no matter how I treat her then I will treat her in ways that will make her unhappy and that will cause her to believe that she cannot be happy with me. If someone comes along that makes her feel happy, unless she believes that being happy is not a good thing, she is vulnerable to an affair. This is the dynamic that we talk about when we say that the BS is 50% responsible for the state of the marriage before an affair.

Once a person accepts that another person might make them happy, if they believe it is their right to be happy no matter where that happiness comes from, then an affair is an almost forgone conclusion. People change their beliefs all the time.

I am meant to be happy. This person makes me happy. God wants me to be happy (this is not necessarily true, BTW) and so God wants me to be with this person. The actions of allowing the affair to flourish are the result of our modified beliefs.

Until I believe that my actions affect others, I have no incentive to change my actions. What I believe determines what I do. If I believe that my marriage is hopeless, I am not very likely to do what I need to do to make it better. If my marriage is a lost cause, why not just move on to something else? If I think my wife doesn't love me and that I can never be happy with her it follows that if someone else comes along that I can see happiness and love with that I allow myself to fall in love with her. This is exactly the process so many waywards follow to get to an affair and it is based entirely on a belief system...

Now it's clear as mud...

The 14th post of

* this thread*

discusses this issue.

I believe the source you looking for is.....

"ONe would think that at least the people with strong religious convictions and moral commitmenst would have special protection from extramarital affairs. Yet I have counseled hundreds of people with these convictions who were not able to resist unfaithfulness. Just observing the many religious leaders who have succumbed to the temptation of infidelity proves to me that UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS infidelity is irresistible.

The truth is that infidelity doesn't necessarily develop out of a bankrupt system of moral values. Instead, personal values change to accommodate the affair. What had be inconceivable prior to tan affair can actually seem reasonable and even morally right after an affair. Many people who have always believed in being faithful in marriage find that their values do not protect them when they are faced with the temptation of an affair...."

pg. 16 "Surviving an Affair"


My guess would be either A.) they already practiced EP's or boundaries or
B.) they haven't been "tempted".....yet


Count me on this......


yep....see above...


For me, it is BOTH. Pre-A my H was definately one of those "I-would-never-do-that-adulters-are-awful-people-burn-them-at-the-stake-and-if-you-even-think-about-doing-that-just-divorce-me-because-that-is-what-I-would-do" persons. BUT......looking back, there were some behaviours that should have been red flags because they didn't line up with this belief. Not a lot mind you, but some.....

For a BS, just beginning Recovery, putting those EP'S in place is all we can do, especially since we cannot trust the belief system of the WS (a little side note here....my H was not really happy to be giving up passwords, cell-phone accounts and ect. His reasoning???...this is absolute HE77, what makes you think I would ever want to go through this again?????...... ).

But it is with TIME that the BS then listens to what the WS says and sees if it lines up the WS actions. If the WS beliefs do not change, then the actions will eventually also.....

not2fun

Thank you for the replies. It makes sense to me. After ignoring red flags in the past, I don't want to make those same mistakes again and patience is not my strong suit these days.