Perhaps I have this wrong, but my reading from that thread is that SH was telling the poster that HER behavioural changes were not enough to effect real change in the marriage without a change in her H's beliefs and that HER changes would not necessarily be enough to bring that about. I thought it was specific counsel in a response to a sitch where one spouse remains unwilling to get on the recovery train.

I think you're onto something SC.

Before getting married I suppose we all question our future spouses about their beliefs to make sure we will be compatable. Back then when BB told me how disgusting the thought adultery was I had no reason to doubt that because we were so in love and his behaviours seemed to match with the beliefs.

So I put too much faith in the belief and mistakenly thought the belief would somehow protect him from bad behaviour.

I can understand now that we're all capable of putting our beliefs to one side in the right circumstances.

Yuck, I'm not sure I like that realisation.

So what we're now saying is that our beliefs need to be protected? And it's not our beliefs that protect us?

I feel so naive sometimes.....

Wow. I think that was beautifully put.

You're a philosopher and you didn't even know it.

I wish that rhymed!

I have brain ache.

I thought it might be useful to post something of the discussion that L4 was having with SH and what he appears to have said:

"Regarding AOs and LBs and disrespectful conversations, Steve said that I must enforce boundaries. He said if H crosses a boundary, I should tell H that what I did does not justify disrespecting me in that way. He said how anyone chooses to react to someone else is a choice. Yes, you may make me angry, but I can respond by taking out the garbage, leaving the room, taking a jog, screaming into a pillow, writing in my journal... Yelling at someone isn't the only way to express one's anger. Saying, "You made me angry which is why I am yelling at you," is an incorrect justification for an LB. I am the only one who makes me yell at anyone.

Steve emphasized that it's not just the changing of behaviors that are needed to repair a broken M. (Which is what many MCs focus on.) It's the changing of beliefs.

If you don't think DJs are a bad thing, if someone makes you aware of them you can change your behavior temporarily to stop the DJs. But if you don't change your belief that DJs are bad, your behavior will eventually reflect that belief and the DJs will return.

So, if I want H to stop an LB then I need to not only tell him what the LB is but why and how it hurts me in hopes that he'll see and believe that doing such an LB is a bad thing. He can choose to change a belief and thus change his behavior. Or he can choose not to and keep his behavior. Same as it is for anyone else.

Until one's belief system is corrected (and thus the behavior is legitimate and going to stick), you "need to be a bit guarded, according to Steve."

kerala, you are quite right that if this advice was given in response to L4's particular problem of getting her H on board, then it isn't generally applicable. However, I cannot really tell, even having read the post a few times, whether Steve was talking about L4's specifics.

I do know that he has said the same thing (about belief change) to a BS whose FWS is very much on board with recovery. The BS was asking (if I remember correctly) whether the WS's mechanical practising of EPs would really create a safe marriage, and I believe that Steve's statement about belief change was used then. In other words, no; mechanical changes alone would not protect the marriage. Not for long.

(This is someone who no longer posts here, so I cannot direct you to the thread.)

Confused?

I wish I could say something like "you're a poet and you don't enough know it", but I can't think of anything to rhyme with "philosopher".

This is a great question b_r!!!

Using Pep's example my h thought that way prior to his A and he thinks that way again now. However during the A i am sure he did not or else it would not have happened.

I think it is more like b_r said in that my thoughts about EPs and such are different than his so how do you connect the two.

BB asked me what was wrong earlier and I said "I'm thinking" and he walked away looking very worried.

I think too much. EVERYONE says that about me, like it's a criticism. Anyway, today me thinks they may have a point, I think I've been over-thinking.

I'm going to have to go away and think about it.

I really do not think any WS fully understands the trauma they inflict, BR. So, I am not sure that is needed for recovery.
As to looking at his beleifs, while he may not uderstand the pain, this does not mean he does not understand the wrongfulness of his acts. If his behavior consistently mirrors this, then I think you are safe.

Actually guys, you are going at this from the wrong angle all together. What we believe is not what keeps us safe as if we just believe the right thing in a vacuum.

The MISTAKEN belief that being a Christian means being incapable of sin is the part that needs to change in beliefs. It is believing that LOVE is magic and will always be there that needs to change. It is the notion that there is no need for us to meet our spouse's ENs or to avoid Love Busters in order to remain married and have a growing happy marriage that must come under fire.

We act FROM what we believe. If I believe that I am impervious to having an affair because I read my Bible, go to church or pray every day I am destined to failure. It is by avoiding things that can lead to an affair that I avoid having one, not by believing in God stronger than temptation. He is stronger than any temptation but believing that to be true isn't what keeps me safe.

While we might be able to step up and change what we do for a short time ultimately it will be what we actually believe in that will win out in the end.

And I am NOT talking about a belief in right, and kindness and God....This kind of belief is a fairy tail...

What I am talking about is believing that we must protect ourselves from sinning by doing things a certain way and avoiding doing things another way. It means that I abandon the notion that love happens and act from knowing that it can be built and rebuilt. It means changing the belief that a "good marriage" will never have trouble and that "If you really loved me, you'd know what I need from you..."

ALL of those things need to be challenged.

All of us have things that need have the foundations blown out from under them. What we do, when push comes to shove and our life is on the line comes from what we believe, about ourselves, the world, life, family, love...

If I am an alcoholic, it is not enough that I don't go out drinking tonight. Even if I never go out drinking doesn't matter. What matters is understanding and BELIEVING that I cannot ever have another drink for any reason. Even if I fail a time or two, what matters is that I no longer think drinking is my answer.

We're talking a change in beliefs at a lot of levels here since we all carry stuff that we believe that effects what we do.

If you believe in all the MB concepts, what does your interaction with your spouse look like? If you believe this stuff works, what does that do to what you do on a daily, moment by moment basis?

Mark

My head hurts too Sere..

What does it mean if you have these beliefs but sometimes you just can't be arsed with them?

If you don't - yet - believe that this stuff works,

(because it seems unlikely or you do not quite accept behaviourism or you cannot believe without evidence)

and you do it anyway, on a daily, moment-by-moment basis,

will anyone, and in particular your spouse, be able to tell the difference?

Will you achieve just as happy a marriage anyway?

If you think creatively and find ways to spend enjoyable time with your spouse, if you do not let anyone else meet your ENs, if you each communicate your needs and work on meeting the other's, if you do not LB etc,

do you stand a chance of creating a happy marriage, even if, like your alcoholic, you do not believe?

Rather more worryingly,

if you DO believe that it works, and you both practise it, can you end up still less than happy?

I think a lot of spouses in recovery feel that way, like wonderin3 seems to be saying.

I like the idea that we need to protect our beliefs. We can do it by using MB program.

I want to believe that I CAN do better this time, but I also believe that believing is not enough, I need some good plan for that. This MB plan.

I thought the other day that now I have lived half of my life with my H. And only now I can say that my parents' home and their belief system doesn't "talk" to me anymore. At least not so much.

Another thought was that being MBer for 8 months makes me a baby in this, and I need to protect my new belief system from my old affair-self for many years before I can say that this new belief system really holds. Seems like a lifelong work:-)

Not just for you, because you have had an affair, Niitse - for all of us. Successful marriage IS a lifelong work.

(You'll have to change your "location" soon. Have you noticed the increased daylight? Hurrah!)

That makes a lot of sense to me niitse

"I need to protect my new belief system form my old affair-self for many years..."

And in keep practising the behaviours of the belief system CONSISTENTLY - all of them.

emphasis mine..... this is sort of what I was thinking. So, is this another of the reasons that it takes up to 5 years to recover, because the WS has to consistently demonstrate that the behaviour changes are leading to and ultimately lead to belief changes, or does it take something more????

If a change in behaviour doesn't necessarily of itself lead to a belief change, and we should not educate our spouses, then how do we determine we are safe in the long term?

I'm going to have a go at answering that myself but I don't totally like the answer I'm coming up with and that is that we can't protect ourselves in the long term. What we do today protects us now but not in a year. What protects us in a years time is what we are doing in a years time. We can only protect ourselves by praticing the rule of M as laid down by Dr H, and if we do that every day then our M's are safe. Let up on those rules and we become unsafe again.

I's prefer an unequivocal "you are safe from adultery forever and ever and ever".

We gotta keep working the program!

Just to give context to that situation, the WH of that poster was on his third EA, and he didn't believe that a "friendship" with a woman was an affair or harmful to the M...so SH thought exposure wouldn't work for him, etc, the WH wouldn't end the EA or protect the marriage until there was a belief system change first.

We are also counseling with SH again...the timing on this thread is funny as Steve just talked to me *yesterday* about my H's belief system regarding his own EPs.

I think what my H was telling himself was "I will never do this again to my family" "W and I protect our M now by meeting each other's ENs" when what he probably should be telling himself is "I have these weaknesses, I am vulnerable to another A, I need to be protecting the M at all times" and *really* understanding what that means. SH told me that shift has started (and explained to me why he believes that)...but that my H still has work to do in terms of really understanding his own ENs and how to protect himself from allowing another woman to meet them, how easily it happens ~ but to let him(SH) work on that. *fingers crossed*

Oh, right. Some of us think b_r is referring to one thread and some to another. I don't know whether it really matters, but I just wanted to clear up that confusion. The thread I quoted from (Looking4's) is not the one with the WH on his third EA.

I don't think that it matters. We're not really discussing them, but US.

OK, I just looked at Looking4's thread. I hadn't read that. Sorry b_r if you weren't referring to Plexle's thread when you started this!

Yeah, what Looking4 said about what Steve explained is true for my H regarding his EPs.