History, I was here 2yrs ago looking for help to stop my WW in an PA. I chickened out and never confronted. Things between us got better for a period and again the PA has resumed.
I am back after 2yrs with my head in the sand and going nuts... I am nearly positive that WW had another(x2) round with the OM. I am determined that the time has come for me to finally confront and work on ending her A. What I need help with is the confrontation part. What to say, how much to say I know, & how to keep my head on straight?
Anyone that has any advice, it will be greatly appreciated!
You wrote this 2 years ago. This is more than just another affair. It's an affair with the same OM that's probably been going on the whole time and probably before you were married.
You didn't expose back then, are you ready to expose now? That's doesn't mean confronting wife. That means exposing her years-long affair with OM to everyone that matters-- children, family, work, pastor. THEN you confront WW.
BTW, why on earth do you want to save this marriage? I'm sorry I can't stick around for your answer but hopefully some others will be along behind me. If not, I'll be back on tomorrow.
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Tyk, Thanks!
"How long have you been married? Kids? How long has the A been going on? What happened earlier in the M which made you seek out MB? What do you know about OM?"
13 yrs, Twin boys, age 10. WW has 2 older boys, 30 and 26,
The PA is complex, early in our R, she told me she had a secret that she would never tell anyone.I could never get it out of her, but I finally have a hunch what it is. She had a PA with the the OM in her previous M. Roughly, 26 yrs ago. At that time the OM was married, but, is now divorced and single. She chose to stay in her previous M because of the kids. She then ended her previous M when her FH had a PA.
Fast forward to our M. She re-kindled the PA about 6 yrs ago when there was a communication break down between us. Out of the blue, she brought up D then and I stood my ground and told here that I was commited to our marriage and would not let it end. I don't know if she ever knew that I discovered what was going on back then, we never discussed. My Bad. I was able to Plan A then and get things back on track but I never exposed at that time and the PA went dormant til recently. Now I know the importance of exposure. Lesson learned.
I guess, if she hadn't had any secrets, she shouldn't be upset with me about spying. So, the spying on my part was a good thing, right?
I 100% agree with what you stated should be my mantra tonight. That is where I will stand when we talk tonight. Any other advise for the confrontation?
History, I was here 2yrs ago looking for help to stop my WW in an PA. I chickened out and never confronted. Things between us got better for a period and again the PA has resumed.
I am back after 2yrs with my head in the sand and going nuts... I am nearly positive that WW had another(x2) round with the OM. I am determined that the time has come for me to finally confront and work on ending her A. What I need help with is the confrontation part. What to say, how much to say I know, & how to keep my head on straight?
Anyone that has any advice, it will be greatly appreciated!
TIA
You will expose and confront when it becomes more difficult for you to endure pretending than it is for you to face the cold hard reality.
I feel for ya. There were times during my recent divorce that I wished with all I had that I never discovered the truth. But now....I've found the 'truth' in 'The Truth will Set you Free.'
I hope you can see that conflict avoidance has only made this problem worse, not better. This enabling has given your wife expectations of entitlement that have become very entrenched over the years.
She is absolutely brutal, you need to snoop and gather airtight evidence, film them and post to youtube, then expose to everyone, this is not just an affair but a cancerous affair and in need of chemo and radiation therapy.
You want to end it? You haven�t shown you are willing to do what is necessary. You�re afraid of your wife�s anger.
It is time to man up, expose, and stand your ground. If you don�t, then continue doing what you�re doing, but the harsh reality is that you are allowing your wife to have an affair. YOU are letting this happen.
If you do nothing, you may as well surrender to the affair and offer to sit next to the bed and fetch them water after they�re done having sex. Bring them towels too so they can wipe the sweat off their brows.
It�s harsh, but that�s basically what you�re doing by not exposing.
1st, Thanks everyone for posting. It all makes sense to me.
Mel, thanks for the Radio clip. Is there a library of clips so I can go thru others as time allows?
I am ready for exposure, have been planning for a while. I do want to do as much exposure to family/friends in person so they don't think that I am not being sincere about the truth. I have evidence that can be presented if necessary.
HTLD, You are correct, It has been enabled much too long. I am tired of all the triggers and insensitivity she has towards me. Time to lay it all on the line as my personal happiness has dimished to almost nothing.
I have a good opportunity to talk with my boys next week as we are going on a camping/fishing trip for 5 days without WW.
I said what I said for shock value. Sometimes you need a 2x4 to knock sense into you. I also understand where you�re coming from since I too was afraid of my WXW.
Biggest regret I have looking back is that fear that gripped me. It�s something I could have controlled and I instead let it control me. Don�t be that guy.
You're right, the fear of it going to Plan D is what gets to me the most. Custody, debt management, a house that we/I really like and will most likely have to give up cause I know I can't take it on by myself, especially if 25% + will go to WW. She makes only 1/3rd of what I do. Huge financial mess potentially.
If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn�t have feared divorcing a woman that was a toxic drain on my life. Don�t get me wrong, it hasn�t been easy and it has been financially tough.
Who cares what she makes. That�s her problem, not yours.
I feared divorce, just like you, and I was willing to go through anything to get my family back, even foolishly believing my WXW (through my BS fog) that having an amicable divorce to give us time apart to heal was the best option to save our marriage. It made sense at the time, but I wish I could go back, beat myself silly, and then tell myself the reality.
What is the reality? For one, this stress is literally killing you. Every time you deal with this it is a drain to your soul and literally to your heart. I have actual medical proof of heart damage from the high blood pressure resulting from my ex�s actions and my custody fight.
Next, stop making assumptions about custody. Custody is stressful, but it shouldn�t be as stressful as it is. Courts today are much more fair towards fathers and they will not take you from your children.
Third thing: YOU have much more control of the situation than you realize. The betrayed husbands who do well are the ones who man up and don�t fear either divorce or the WW�s anger. They do what is necessary to end the affair and get the ball rolling legally or in terms of saving their marriage. I believe that filing legal papers where you are literally going for everything, including charges of adultery, and full custody, will do more to wake up a WW than anything else.
Look at the threads here and see for yourself. Men who act without fear do well and more often than not have a WW who repents and comes back begging to be forgiven.
It is then that this becomes your choice on doing so or not.
Personally, I would not forgive a second betrayal. She�ll do it again and this is killing you. Check your BP if you don�t believe me.
Expose to everyone, file for divorce, and see if you can get an order to remove her from the house. Get some solid evidence of an affair first. Spy, hire a PI, and get other pieces of evidence to confirm and then confront.
Last week minutes before I went on vacation with my boys, I interecepted a card that was sent to my WW. I had to stop at the store in which she works to pick up something and the gal at the desk hands me a piece of mail that came addressed to my WW. It was in a purple envelope and looked much like a card. So I opened it and sure enough it was from the OM and he even included a picture of himself. So, after making a quick copy of it I took it home and put it on the counter. She found it and it disappeared and she never said a word about it to me. It was obvious that it was opened because I wasn't too careful opening it.
Exposure is underway, mother, sister, stepkids, co-workers, etc... I guess I just sit back and wait for the storm...
Hope you kept the return address on the envelope for a well needed NO CONTACT letter that your WW should write and you should approve and send. Good thinking on making a copy!
There was no address on the envelope, but I know from several pieces of evidence the address and phone of the OM. It's funny how GPS' tells a someone where another person has been!!!
Have been busy exposing to everyone. What a rotten weekend. The reaction is similar from all, they have no idea what has been going on and are upset with what WW has been doing. I was planning to confront WW last night but just couldn't bring myself to do it. I am so afraid of her anger.
I did make a small discovery this morning. I found out her FB password, it is "ihateWH". Wow, if she has that much hatred for my, why doesn't she just leave me???
I did meet with a D lawyer last week. I have to go out of town for work today but will try to meet with another lawyer tomorrow.
OF course she hates you, it is the only way she can justify what she has been and is doing. You have to be the enemy. Confront her and tell her how the 'cow ate the cabbage'. Why do you fear a woman that cheats, lies, and claims to hate you? You have nothing to lose my friend, so if you want this marriage you can fight for it without worry. You have nothing to lose.
Right now she is lost, but she can be found.
Please think about it.
God Bless,
JL
PS: if OM is married or works with her, expose him to his W, his work, and his family. Put a match to his feet and then watch him dance. It will help break up this little mess they have created.
Have been busy exposing to everyone. What a rotten weekend. The reaction is similar from all, they have no idea what has been going on and are upset with what WW has been doing. I was planning to confront WW last night but just couldn't bring myself to do it. I am so afraid of her anger..
Does she beat you? Is there a reason why you are so timid and fearful?
Yes, your wife will be furious, but your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an ongoing affair. The biggest concern about her anger will be to NOT BURST OUT LAUGHING when she attacks you with the typical fogbabble rantings. We can almost predict what she is going to say verbatim. "I was going to work on the marriage, now I am filing for divorce!!" "you have betrayed me.."
The hardest part will to not bust out laughing. If you feel a laugh coming on, I would leave the room.
When will your exposure targets be speaking to your wife? Are they going to be using their influence to persuade her to end her adultery?
And is the OM married, and if so have you exposed to his wife? What about to their employer? A letter should be sent ASAP to their employer.
You are doing the right thing, I agree don't listen to any of what she says, she has to be mean in order to justify what she is doing, my husband was like that as well, down right mean and just cut me out of his life during his affair..... Ignore that it just isn't your wife speaking it's some affair fog controlled woman... When she gets mad, just tell her that you love her and that you are trying to save your marriage. She can't have any fun having the affair when all eyes are on her......the OM won't want a full time commitment to her, might not be what he had planned..... Is OM married? if he is have a conversation with the OM's wife. Hang in there, ask her to stop seeing the OM and if she is not willing to do that ask her to leave the home.......it's her that decided to leave the marriage...let her feel what her decisions will really be like...... Right now you fill some of her needs when you stop she might not like it...... Remember it takes a while for the affair fog to lift and to see a sane person emerge...... It's never to late, I was in your position and my husband has come to his senses and is remorseful and regretful........we are trying to work things out....... In the beginning I thought there wasn't hope for any kind of recovery.....he was convinced she was the best thing for him.......I think when I set him free to go, he really had to take a look at what he had now.........giving up a life and family for someone he had no history with except lying and deceiving 2 families, losing his sons respect, having his work colleagues and friends look at him differently.....exposure for me sent a message that I was not the only one that thought his affair was wrong and hurtful........he was embarrassed that everyone knew what he was capable of ........it's the best way to stop an affair ......she will be mad, let her spit nails, the madder the better........ hang in there I know the rath that comes with this news but it's better than letting the affair continue that you can't survive from.......
If you are really that afraid of your wife, then calmly arm yourself with a VAR, let her know that you are recording everything and confront her. Chances are she will calm down, and if things get heated up at least you have it on record.
Apparently hiding the VAR does not hold up in court???, and letting her know it there will just make her scream "Turn that blankity blank blank thing off!" leaving confrontation worthless. I have no Idea how to handle the VAR thing during confrontation.
SR, I have been an active lurker on these forums for years, I have plan A'd for years and believe that is what has been positive in our relationship. I am tired of all give.
I don't have any vision for how plan B could work, financially we could not make it work. We can barely pay our monthly debts.
OF course she hates you, it is the only way she can justify what she has been and is doing. You have to be the enemy. Confront her and tell her how the 'cow ate the cabbage'. Why do you fear a woman that cheats, lies, and claims to hate you? You have nothing to lose my friend, so if you want this marriage you can fight for it without worry. You have nothing to lose.
Right now she is lost, but she can be found.
Please think about it.
God Bless,
JL
PS: if OM is married or works with her, expose him to his W, his work, and his family. Put a match to his feet and then watch him dance. It will help break up this little mess they have created.
JL,
OM is divorced and lives 85 miles away. His work is not tied to hers or mine. The two of them had an affair during WW's first marriage before 1982. Then 20 years later after we had been married for 7 yrs., she went and dug him up. I should have exposed back then and instead, I put my head in the sand and hoped things would work out.
Have been busy exposing to everyone. What a rotten weekend. The reaction is similar from all, they have no idea what has been going on and are upset with what WW has been doing. I was planning to confront WW last night but just couldn't bring myself to do it. I am so afraid of her anger..
Does she beat you? Is there a reason why you are so timid and fearful?
Yes, your wife will be furious, but your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an ongoing affair. The biggest concern about her anger will be to NOT BURST OUT LAUGHING when she attacks you with the typical fogbabble rantings. We can almost predict what she is going to say verbatim. "I was going to work on the marriage, now I am filing for divorce!!" "you have betrayed me.."
The hardest part will to not bust out laughing. If you feel a laugh coming on, I would leave the room.
When will your exposure targets be speaking to your wife? Are they going to be using their influence to persuade her to end her adultery?
And is the OM married, and if so have you exposed to his wife? What about to their employer? A letter should be sent ASAP to their employer.
Mel,
She is not physically abusive, but verbally most likely. With me being the non-confrontational type of person, I just don't know how to respond to the accusations that everything wrong is me and not her. I don't respond well to criticism.
I am brand new to this forum and just found out my wife is having an affair. I noticed all of the abbreviations and can't quite figure them all out yet. I have decided to become active on this forum and your situation is very similar, Willy.
Anyway, I am more curious with your situation, did you keep any evidence of your WW's affair? I have some with my wife and not sure what is all necessary.
Are you wanting to save your marriage? If not, what are the people that you have exposed her to going to say to her? Are they your family/friends or hers? Also, do you have any idea of what led her to stray?
Yuck!! I am not looking forward to this situation coming out for me!!
She is not physically abusive, but verbally most likely. With me being the non-confrontational type of person, I just don't know how to respond to the accusations that everything wrong is me and not her. I don't respond well to criticism.
Here is how you respond: "So sorry you are upset, dear."
You don't have to debate or come up with an answer.
If you are a conflict avoider, are you also willing to take the consequences that come with conflict avoiding? conflict avoiders lose it all. Are you willing to face the consequences of your inaction?
I am brand new to this forum and just found out my wife is having an affair. I noticed all of the abbreviations and can't quite figure them all out yet. I have decided to become active on this forum and your situation is very similar, Willy.
Anyway, I am more curious with your situation, did you keep any evidence of your WW's affair? I have some with my wife and not sure what is all necessary.
Are you wanting to save your marriage? If not, what are the people that you have exposed her to going to say to her? Are they your family/friends or hers?
Yuck!! I am not looking forward to this situation coming out for me!!
You do need to read everything on the "Notable Posts" forum at the top. Read as much as you can.
As far as evidence goes, Print out, make copies, write down in a journal, take photos, whatever, to record your findings. Do not ever tell her where you keep the evidence, all she needs to know is that the evidence suggests or proves her actions. She will search and destroy. I learned that last night. My WW did not find what she was looking for though.
I do want to save my marriage but the fight in me is dying.
I exposed to her family, mother, sister and my 2 stepkids, from her previous marriage, they are older, SS28, SS32. Iam not sure what they will say to her, but, they only know the truth so I believe they will be supportive of me.
I agree with the YUCK comment.
If you haven't started your own thread on this forum yet, you need to do so. There are so many great people here to help out. I have learned that you need them on your team!
[quote=chuckw982]I exposed to her family, mother, sister and my 2 stepkids, from her previous marriage, they are older, SS28, SS32. Iam not sure what they will say to her, but, they only know the truth so I believe they will be supportive of me.
Willy, what is your wife's reaction to this exposure? Have any of these people spoken to her yet?
She is not physically abusive, but verbally most likely. With me being the non-confrontational type of person, I just don't know how to respond to the accusations that everything wrong is me and not her. I don't respond well to criticism.
Here is how you respond: "So sorry you are upset, dear."
You don't have to debate or come up with an answer.
If you are a conflict avoider, are you also willing to take the consequences that come with conflict avoiding? conflict avoiders lose it all. Are you willing to face the consequences of your inaction?
Mel,
The list of things wrong in our marriage is so overwhelming, that is what I fear the most, if we happen to fix one item, then there is a whole bunch more to follow.
I know what you are saying about the consequences of being a CA. No, I do not want to lose it all. I guess that means that I have to confront her?
The list of things wrong in our marriage is so overwhelming, that is what I fear the most, if we happen to fix one item, then there is a whole bunch more to follow.
So is your answer to ignore the problems in the hopes they will go away? You know that is not how it works in reality. If the problems are not addressed you will lose your marriage. That is the high cost of conflict avoiding.
Are you willing to accept those consequences?
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I know what you are saying about the consequences of being a CA. No, I do not want to lose it all. I guess that means that I have to confront her?
Of course. The problem cannot be solved until you do.
The list of things wrong in our marriage is so overwhelming, that is what I fear the most, if we happen to fix one item, then there is a whole bunch more to follow.
I know what you are saying about the consequences of being a CA. No, I do not want to lose it all. I guess that means that I have to confront her?
Willy
Let's re-frame this.
Instead of labeling your behavior as "conflict avoider" , let's just make it simple and say this....
You are not, and have not been HONEST in your marriage.
How do I go about Plan B if financially I know we can't support WW if she leaves our home??
Well, one thing is you DO NOT support your wife when she leaves, if she wants to live the single life then by all means let HER! You don't support all your other ex g/f do you? Then why should she be any different?
You should not tolerate her living a single life in your home, so when you are in plan B you do not support her with ANY money! I would start separating your finances NOW!
Start writing your plan B letter and post it here so we can help.
For her to really see what it will be like living with out you, you need to make sure you have the kids, does she have family she can stay while you are in plan B? I would talk to them, and ask them if they can help you by having her stay with them.
Does she have any clue yet that any of this is going on? Have you talked to her at all about any of your problems? Another question....on your fact finding mission, do you feel they are facts or are you finding yourself making assumptions on a lot of it? Right now I am not 100% sure on everything and am not sure if I should act on assumptions or wait for more actual facts.
I am not sure also if I should fight for sole custody of my kids since my WW is a great mother. Tough decisions!?? My wife has given up a lot for me, so this is really going to be hard. Do you feel a majority of your problems were created by WW? I am not sure with me if they are or not. I have lots of thinking to do.
I will take your suggestion and start my own thread, but right now I am just reading a lot.
She is not physically abusive, but verbally most likely. With me being the non-confrontational type of person, I just don't know how to respond to the accusations that everything wrong is me and not her. I don't respond well to criticism.
Originally Posted by Willy66
I know what you are saying about the consequences of being a CA. No, I do not want to lose it all. I guess that means that I have to confront her?
Let me let you in on a little secret: Women don't like conflict avoiders.
I'm sure you thought by avoiding conflict and keeping the peace - by bowing to your wife's whims and kowtowing to her anger, that you were showing love. You thought it would make your wife happy. As a bonus - she wouldn't get angry with you!
You get a happy wife, and don't have to deal with negativity and criticism. Sounds great.
Only problem is, your wife KNOWS what you were doing. You were basically saying your thoughts and feelings weren't as important as hers. You, in turn, look weak.
No woman wants to be with a weak man. She cannot respect him. And after a while - the lack of respect for someone she WANTS to respect turns into resentment, turns into anger. Because your behavior has inherently created inequality. Sure - in this inequality SHE'S on top - and you think she'd like that.
But a woman doesn't want to be on top - a woman wants a PARTNER. A woman wants an EQUAL. A woman wants someone WORTHY of her.
A woman also wants someone HONEST. Someone who will SHARE themselves with her to create intimacy.
You're conflict avoidance was a horrible type of dishonesty. You refused to share yourself with your wife and so left a void where intimacy with your wife should be. A void she devastatingly has chosen to fill with someone else. You aren't responsible for the choice she made, but you helped create the conditions that enabled it.
There are ways to handle conflict positively and that promote intimacy. This involves radical honesty without Love Busters.
A woman wants to respect her husband. Conflict avoidance only serves to undermine your worth in her eyes. You are saying you aren't worthy enough to speak your mind. You are less than her. I can't describe the revulsion that causes in a woman.
NOW is the time you must stand up. NOW is the time you must advocate strongly for yourself, because really, now is the LAST chance you'll have of showing your wife you are actually worthy of having a relationship with. (Though right now, as a wayward she isn't worthy of being in a relationship with, thats a different matter). You have to prove to your wife that you are respectable.
Because if you just roll over and let her walk all over you - there is NO CHANCE of recovery. No woman wants to be with a man who wont FIGHT for her and his family. No woman wants to be with a man who feels it's more important to not be yelled at than to keep his family together.
You gotta take this CA aspect of your character and eradicate it. It is going to gain you absolutely NOTHING and lose you EVERYTHING.
I am not sure also if I should fight for sole custody of my kids since my WW is a great mother.
An ACTIVE wayward, by definition CANNOT be a great parent. They are putting their selfish desires above the stability and happiness of their children.
There is little more abusive and destructive a parent can do.
Kissing scraped knees, going to soccer games, and folding Jr.'s underwear does not a good mother make, not if she is actively undermining their home and family.
The FIRST AND BEST definition of a good mother is one who ensures a stable, happy, loving home - by cultivating, nourishing and protecting a romantic, passionate love with her husband.
Because the MARRIAGE forms the foundation of a good home.
She can bake all the cupcakes she wants for the PTA bake sale - if she's spreading her legs for an OM - she is her children's WORST enemy.
ETA: this is about ACTIVE waywards. FORMER waywards are a completely different story - don't want to imply that former waywards are currently bad parents, far from it in fact.
ETA2: Chuck, PLEASE start your own thread and read up on MB.
A woman wants to respect her husband. Conflict avoidance only serves to undermine your worth in her eyes. You are saying you aren't worthy enough to speak your mind. You are less than her. I can't describe the revulsion that causes in a woman.
Vibrissa is correct. Women do not respect men they can run over. It is disgusting. Our love is contingent upon the respect we feel for our husband.
Keeping the peace at all costs does not buy you love, but buys you revulsion.
I am not sure also if I should fight for sole custody of my kids since my WW is a great mother.
That is an oxymoron. Waywards are not good parents. They are completely self absorbed with their addictive affairs and tend to be very neglectful. They typically teach their children that wrong is right and often try to introduce them to their adultery partner.
And the biggest reason that a wayward is a bad parent is because they are destroying the child's safe family with their selfish affair. It doesn't get anymore selfish and abusive than that.
Because if you just roll over and let her walk all over you - there is NO CHANCE of recovery. No woman wants to be with a man who wont FIGHT for her and his family. No woman wants to be with a man who feels it's more important to not be yelled at than to keep his family together.
Part of the reality check wayward wives must get is the realization that divorce won�t be easy and that you WILL FIGHT for custody of your kids. No, you aren�t likely to get sole custody, but the threat that it could happen is a big dose of cold water on a wayward�s fantasy. The object of the obstacles you put up is to 1. Protect you legally, and 2. Wake her from the fantasy.
You�re not going to do any of this by being Mr. Nice Guy Conflict Avoider. All that will do is leave you penniless and without your kids while another man moves in and raises them and enjoys your stuff.
How 'bout you start stirring up cr@p on OM's side as well. It's time to stir up a big heaping dose of conflict. I'd expose to his family, friends, xW that he cheated on with your WW before, facebook, whatever. Make OM's life he11 as long as he makes yours he11. Most likely he is involved with your WW because it's easy. He can continue to bang her and he doesn't have to worry about commitment since she's still married to you. If he REALLY wanted your WW, he would have pushed for her to leave you. That obviously hasn't happened. He's content the way it is. Make your WW no longer worth his while.
How 'bout you start stirring up cr@p on OM's side as well.
Agree with Jim. I would have a come to Jesus with that scumbag and set him straight. Make his life a living hell. Go meet with him face to face but leave your pistol in the car.
How 'bout you start stirring up cr@p on OM's side as well.
Agree with Jim. I would have a come to Jesus with that scumbag and set him straight. Make his life a living hell. Go meet with him face to face but leave your pistol in the car.
This is the message you want to send that worm:
The OM is divorced and lives alone. I was able to find his ExW's address but they have been apart for some time. He does have a couple children I might be able to track down.
She is not physically abusive, but verbally most likely. With me being the non-confrontational type of person, I just don't know how to respond to the accusations that everything wrong is me and not her. I don't respond well to criticism.
Originally Posted by Willy66
I know what you are saying about the consequences of being a CA. No, I do not want to lose it all. I guess that means that I have to confront her?
Let me let you in on a little secret: Women don't like conflict avoiders.
I'm sure you thought by avoiding conflict and keeping the peace - by bowing to your wife's whims and kowtowing to her anger, that you were showing love. You thought it would make your wife happy. As a bonus - she wouldn't get angry with you!
You get a happy wife, and don't have to deal with negativity and criticism. Sounds great.
Only problem is, your wife KNOWS what you were doing. You were basically saying your thoughts and feelings weren't as important as hers. You, in turn, look weak.
No woman wants to be with a weak man. She cannot respect him. And after a while - the lack of respect for someone she WANTS to respect turns into resentment, turns into anger. Because your behavior has inherently created inequality. Sure - in this inequality SHE'S on top - and you think she'd like that.
But a woman doesn't want to be on top - a woman wants a PARTNER. A woman wants an EQUAL. A woman wants someone WORTHY of her.
A woman also wants someone HONEST. Someone who will SHARE themselves with her to create intimacy.
You're conflict avoidance was a horrible type of dishonesty. You refused to share yourself with your wife and so left a void where intimacy with your wife should be. A void she devastatingly has chosen to fill with someone else. You aren't responsible for the choice she made, but you helped create the conditions that enabled it.
There are ways to handle conflict positively and that promote intimacy. This involves radical honesty without Love Busters.
A woman wants to respect her husband. Conflict avoidance only serves to undermine your worth in her eyes. You are saying you aren't worthy enough to speak your mind. You are less than her. I can't describe the revulsion that causes in a woman.
NOW is the time you must stand up. NOW is the time you must advocate strongly for yourself, because really, now is the LAST chance you'll have of showing your wife you are actually worthy of having a relationship with. (Though right now, as a wayward she isn't worthy of being in a relationship with, thats a different matter). You have to prove to your wife that you are respectable.
Because if you just roll over and let her walk all over you - there is NO CHANCE of recovery. No woman wants to be with a man who wont FIGHT for her and his family. No woman wants to be with a man who feels it's more important to not be yelled at than to keep his family together.
You gotta take this CA aspect of your character and eradicate it. It is going to gain you absolutely NOTHING and lose you EVERYTHING.
The list of things wrong in our marriage is so overwhelming, that is what I fear the most, if we happen to fix one item, then there is a whole bunch more to follow.
I know what you are saying about the consequences of being a CA. No, I do not want to lose it all. I guess that means that I have to confront her?
Willy
Let's re-frame this.
Instead of labeling your behavior as "conflict avoider" , let's just make it simple and say this....
You are not, and have not been HONEST in your marriage.
That is great information you posted. What a rude awakening for me. Thanks.
One other thing that is really making me wonder is why there is a benefit to exposing an affair to friends & family before talking to your spouse about it first? Actually, I did read in previous posts as to "WHY" to do that, but in my case, I think it will push her more to the OM that much more. Not sure if that tactic will work for me. I would assume I will have to access my own situation since every one is different.
Willy,
Once your WW finds out about the exposure, you will have to post how it went. I would be very curious to see if it worked.
That is great information you posted. What a rude awakening for me. Thanks.
One other thing that is really making me wonder is why there is a benefit to exposing an affair to friends & family before talking to your spouse about it first? Actually, I did read in previous posts as to "WHY" to do that, but in my case, I think it will push her more to the OM that much more. Not sure if that tactic will work for me. I would assume I will have to access my own situation since every one is different.
Willy,
Once your WW finds out about the exposure, you will have to post how it went. I would be very curious to see if it worked.
You should begin a thread of your own. ASK for help.
That is great information you posted. What a rude awakening for me. Thanks.
One other thing that is really making me wonder is why there is a benefit to exposing an affair to friends & family before talking to your spouse about it first? Actually, I did read in previous posts as to "WHY" to do that, but in my case, I think it will push her more to the OM that much more. Not sure if that tactic will work for me. I would assume I will have to access my own situation since every one is different.
Willy,
Once your WW finds out about the exposure, you will have to post how it went. I would be very curious to see if it worked.
Your situation is not different. Almost every BS on this board exposed and many of us are still married. The ones who aren't married don't regret exposing. Start your own thread and don't advise others if you have no clue how to handle an affair.
Exposure is like sunlight to a vampire (except apparently after drinking Sookie's blood for you True Blood fans). Sure it will make your WS thrash about a bit at first, but it will eventually kill the affair. Why do you think people hide their affairs? Because they don't want other people to find out. Why don't they want other people to find out? Afterall, haven't they found their true "soulmate"? They know it will kill the affair, and they will manipulate you in any way they can (threats of divorce) to keep from exposing their dirty little secret.
"Start your own thread and don't advise others if you have no clue how to handle an affair"
jmwc95,
Sorry that I even mentioned it!!! I didn't realize I was giving advice! Excuse me! Just trying to learn by gathering information. This situation is similar to mine and thought it would be helpful. Was not ready to start a thread yet!!
"Start your own thread and don't advise others if you have no clue how to handle an affair"
jmwc95,
Sorry that I even mentioned it!!! I didn't realize I was giving advice! Excuse me! Just trying to learn by gathering information. This situation is similar to mine and thought it would be helpful. Was not ready to start a thread yet!!
Start a thread. You seem hesitant to start exposure. Man up, start a thread, and then start planning your exposure. The quicker you deal with this the quicker it will be over.
One other thing that is really making me wonder is why there is a benefit to exposing an affair to friends & family before talking to your spouse about it first? Actually, I did read in previous posts as to "WHY" to do that, but in my case, I think it will push her more to the OM that much more. Not sure if that tactic will work for me. I would assume I will have to access my own situation since every one is different.
Your situation is not different from any other. Exposure is the most powerful weapon you have in saving your marriage. That applies to all marriages that are afflicted by affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure shines the light of reality into the affair and usually kill it. It should be done BEFORE your confront her and DEMAND she end her affair.
Here is what Dr Harley says about exposure:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
" In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."
Once your WW finds out about the exposure, you will have to post how it went. I would be very curious to see if it worked.
When the WS finds out about exposure, they are FURIOUS. Always. If you want to find out how it went, go talk to the many people who recovered their marriages by exposing.
Dr Harley calls those who don't expose "enablers" on this radio segment: here
Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley to caller in radio link
"It's very difficult to overcome an affair when you become an enabler.
In my judgement exposure would have ended your wife's affair."
We went out for dinner and the tension was high. I struggled through small talk in the restaurant, she was very unresponsive. On the way home I started by telling her that I love her, and want to try to work this out but it is not going to be easy. I told her I have known about her A for the last 8yrs. She asked how I know, I said that I have email and other evidence which proves her whereabouts. I did not go into details of the evidence although she wanted me to. I talked about the fact that the affair was brought on by me avoiding conflict with here and not meeting her emotional needs and she found other ways to fill the needs. WW's biggest concern was about me telling her who I had all talked to about the situation. I stated "I have talked to others and what we discussed was the truth about our marriage". Again, she was very concerned with who I had talked to. I did not reveal who I had exposed to. Should I have??? Then the converstion basically ended with her saying, "do you want me to move out?", I responded with, "you don't need to go anywhere if you don't want to. I do love you and am sorry you are upset.
WW then left for a while and I did not know where she went, but later returned about 9:30. Later we went to bed and she was there by me. WW asked me if I wanted her to go sleep downstairs, I stated "you can if you want to". Soon the TV was turned off and WW began asking about who I had all told and why it was important to me that I had told everyone. "How was exposure going to help our situation". WW asked if I felt better because of exposing, I replied, "no". I explained that I had only told the truth about the status of our marriage. She again questioned me about the evidence and told me that all of my assumptions about the A were just that, assumptions. She was very concerned about what it was that I knew about the OM. WW then went on to explain how everything was my fault and she had lost respect for me years ago. I replied with the fact that I am willing to accept the responsibility for my actions and I can't go back and undo anything. I can only work on me from here forward.
One thing that is bothering me is that while she was trying to get me to tell her who I had exposed to, she stated that maybe she doesn't need those people in her life anymore. WW seemed willing to go on without those people in her life.
WW also asked me if she should start the work of filing for D. I replied "I don't know". Our conversation for the evening pretty much ended with her trying to talk about how the D was going to work out.
I feel rotten this morning think it is going to be a long day.
She is stonewalling (to get to your info) and deflecting. She is trying to figure out; #1. How much she needs to confess to. (Fog thinking) #2. If you are serious- that she can keep up the fantasy (fog) #3. Cutting people out of her life? Her fantasy about OM (them against the world) FOG. #4 Talk about D? Simple threat.
One big thing you must do is end her fantasy with a hard dose of reality. You have to get her to understand that divorce is not an option for you. That you will not go down the path of divorce willingly and that you�re not going to make it easy if she chooses that path.
I can�t emphasize to you enough how important this is. You probably think that your situation is unique and that if you don�t go along easily with her you will ruin your chance to reconcile down the road, etc. Let me tell you that it�s a big lie. I believed it when the same lies were fed to me. Once the divorce is done, there is no reconciling for the wayward wife. She will use the divorce as the license to emerge from the shadows, date again, and celebrate being single again.
So make it clear, �I don�t talk divorce. I talk marriage.� Say it incessantly when she brings it up.
Also add to that that you will fight for custody of the kids. That's a big dose of reality to the fantasty and that if she chooses to go down the path of divorce that you will file on the grounds of adultery and request full custody of your boys.
Odds are low you'll actually get it, but most WW'es assume that you will simply amicably end things, step aside and let her live her life with another man, your stuff, and your kids.
Only mention this stuff if there is no way around the topic. Avoid it, but let her know that going down that path, if she chooses to do so, won't be a cakewalk or easy. It's much easier to save your marriage.
BUT....
Why do you want to stay married? How old are your boys?
WW's biggest concern was about me telling her who I had all talked to about the situation. I stated "I have talked to others and what we discussed was the truth about our marriage". Again, she was very concerned with who I had talked to. I did not reveal who I had exposed to. Should I have???
Willy, the point of exposure is to expose, so of course she should know now to whom you exposed. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of telling these people? These people should be calling her up and trying to persuade her to end her affair.
Everyone should know about the affair. And I would strongly suggest you have a meeting with the OM and tell him you know about the affair and ask him to leave your wife alone.
The next step is to DEMAND that she end all contact with her OM. And if she doesn't end all contact, then make plans to separate.
I would put the onus back on her and say: I am willing to give you a chance to earn my forgiveness if you end all contact with your your OM and commit to the marriage. But this will end in divorce if you don't end all contact.
Willy, since you have kept exposure a "secret" I feel compelled to ask exactly what you exposed? Did you tell the exposure targets about the affair?
WHY HAVE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE CALLED YOUR WIFE YET? This is very strange and I don't understand why she doesn't know she has been exposed. Most WS's know within an hour they have been exposed.
WW's biggest concern was about me telling her who I had all talked to about the situation.
This is an indicator of how potent exposure would be in killing this affair. Your wife is terrified of exposure which means she knows it will ruin her affair.
If you want to save your marriage you are going to have to do the maximum exposure.
Willy, since you have kept exposure a "secret" I feel compelled to ask exactly what you exposed? Did you tell the exposure targets about the affair?
WHY HAVE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE CALLED YOUR WIFE YET? This is very strange and I don't understand why she doesn't know she has been exposed. Most WS's know within an hour they have been exposed.
Mel,
I guess I didn't know that it was OK to tell WW who I exposed to. I will let her know.
The exposure consisted of telling about the affair and what I feel caused it, basically me not meeting her emotional needs. I exposed to her mother, sister, and our stepkids. Those are the most influential people in her life. I also confided in a few close friends, but they most likely won't say anything unless I push them to.
I will say, the communication between us today indicates she has gotten a huge dose of reality.
WHY HAVE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE CALLED YOUR WIFE YET? This is very strange and I don't understand why she doesn't know she has been exposed. Most WS's know within an hour they have been exposed. [/quote]
I had asked them to wait until I had a chance to confront her. They most likely will be talking to WW tonight. I have kept them in the loop of what's going on.
STOP!!!! You are waaaaaayyyy too nice and it's apparent that your WW calls the shots in your marriage.
First, understand this one CRITICAL fact--- you did NOT cause your wife to commit adultery. She CHOSE to do it because she has a lack of boundaries and morals. Sure, you're responsible for your part in any marital problems, but so is she, but you are NOT responsible or the cause of her adultery.
Your WW will not respect you until you man up and stand up to her BS. That conversation last night? You should have told her flat out that it doesn't matter who knows and you will stop at nothing to fight for your family.
She needs to realize that the Willy she's been married to all these years has finally got a clue. You won't be disrespected any longer.
I hope that when you do any more exposure you call it like it is. My wife is having an affair. I'm asking for your support and influence to help me save my family. YOU have nothing to be ashamed of.
Your WW is VERY worried now and is likely spinning her story to make you out to be the bad guy. That's why you do all of your exposures at one time... BEFORE she has a chance to spin it.
Nothing says you have to tell her anything about what you know or how you know or who you've told.
Your mantra to her is that you will continue to fight for your family. If she gets irate and hostile, you offer her a cookie. Just imagine a small child throwing a tantrum because they're not getting their way.
Please, it's time to MAN up and become the husband and leader of your family.
You tell her you exposed her affair to get her to end it.
You tell her you don't want to get divorced, but you will no longer tolerate her affair.
You tell her that you will do whatever it takes to break this affair up including making OM's life he11 and repeat and continued exposure.
You tell her that if she doesn't like it, she can let the door hit her in the butt on the way out.
You let her know that if she chooses OM and divorce, it will not be amicable, and you will fight her tooth and nail for finances and custody. You will not be friends afterwards, and your children will know the truth about the destruction of your marriage.
You show her who is in charge. It's time to man up, stand up for yourself, and take back control of your life, your family, and your marriage.
[ I also confided in a few close friends, but they most likely won't say anything unless I push them to.
Then the entire purpose of exposure has been dashed. The purpose of exposure is to a) expose and b) get influential people to speak to her. Secrecy is what has led to this terrible place, it won't be the solution.
If these people do not care enough to reach out to her, than at the very least, OF COURSE your wife should be told about the exposure. That is the point. To expose.
Willy, I would also sit your children down - ALONE - and tell them about her affair. They need to know what the cause of the tension in their home is. If you don't tell them the truth, your wife will tell them lies.
Dr. Harley on telling the children:
Quote
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home. ___________________________________ A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
Quote
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Willy, you are getting some great advice here. I know it's hard, but you have to emotionally detach a little bit and take charge of your marriage.
Expose to anybody who may have any influence on your WW. You want them to talk to her, whether or not she knows that you have talked to them.
If she asks, tell her who you told and remember this line, "I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage." Stay strong and confident and don't be shaken by her reactions. Remember, she isn't your wife anymore- she is the alien.
Just curious as how it went the people you exposed to talk to your WW, if they did? Did she get angry?
Chuck,
WW is very angry with the fact that I have exposed. She is doing damage control and as far as I can tell, she isn't totally telling the truth to those that are talking to her.
I have a question about exposing the evidence that I have to WW. She seems to be telling others that her affair is only a "friendship" and they didn't sleep together. The evidence suggests otherwise to me. How do I handle this????
Have you asked her yourself about the whole A? As I asked earlier, is your evidence factual or just assumptions? I myself am not 100% sure on everything and I am still waiting to expose until I know 100%.
Have you asked her yourself about the whole A? As I asked earlier, is your evidence factual or just assumptions? I myself am not 100% sure on everything and I am still waiting to expose until I know 100%.
The strongest evidence is e-mail exchanges between her and the OM.
There is a lot of info you can gather here on how to get the evidence. Read up, ask questions.
Willy, did you tell your exposure targets that you have evidence? My suggestion would be to send them a nice email asking for their advice and support. Tell them you understand that your WW is denying the affair but you would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who needs it.
something like this:
"dear friend, thank you for your time on the phone yesterday. I am trying my best to save my marriage and would appreciate any advice you might have. Since you are a very influential part of our lives, I am hoping you will use your influence to persuade WW to end her affair and try to save this marriage.
I understand she is denying her affair, so I would be happy to provide evidence if you have any questions.
Have you asked her yourself about the whole A? As I asked earlier, is your evidence factual or just assumptions? I myself am not 100% sure on everything and I am still waiting to expose until I know 100%.
Hey Chuck, just so you know, it is a very bad idea to ASK an adulterer if they are having an affair. Adulterers lie so you will rarely get the truth. Asking them only serves to tip them off and they just go deeper.
Can I suggest that you start up your own thread so posters can help you with your situation? Folks won't see you down here at the bottom of Willy's thread.
It will help break up this little mess they have created.
