I was interested in hearing from women that had an affair / midlife crisis and have since gone back to their husbands.

I guess I am looking to see what you learned, what caused you to go back and how are things now. How long you were gone, etc.

If there is already thread for this, if anyone could point me to it, I would be very thankful

Thanks everyone

-DAT68

I find it curious that no one has responded to this as I was looking forward to reading what FWW's had to say. I've tried to follow several thread links to "Success Stories" but they lead no where -- I gather there was a server crash at some point and assumed those pre-dated the crash.

So, I'll answer the question for what it's worth, with these three caveats: (1) I'm a week or so shy of two months of NC, so I assume I'm still foggy, a term I'll leave it to others to define, (2) my A was atypical for a woman in that it didn't start out as an EA, and (3) I used to be a trial lawyer so I analyze things in a way that can, at times, be unhelpful to the end goal of having a good M.

Affair/midlife crisis: yes, for me the A was one manifestation of a midlife crisis. It was me looking around thinking "is this as good as it gets?", answering "surely not", and taking the fast road out of Dodge, taking out several innocent bystanders in my haste. There is a fast growing demographic of women my age doing exactly that. The kids are basically done. Their H has been absent from the M for a long time. They have tried everything they know to get the H's attention. And then one day, it's like "is this really all I get after a life of giving all I have? I'm supposed to go quietly into that good night of old age with HIM? I don't think so...."

Here is a link to an article that describes this social development: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081510dngdmarriage.2abfb00.html

For me, the article is dead on.

How long apart and why I went back: We were separated (in different states) for about three months, with a few days together here and there. I actually went to Costa Rica for a few weeks to a total immersion Spanish class to try to end the A. AP's are a powerful drug.

OK, don't tell anybody I said this or they will get out those nasty 2x4's, but the real honest to Pete reason I ended the A was because I knew it was screwing me up so much that there was no way I could decide to divorce, and I wanted a divorce. I initially sought reconciliation with my H so could tell myself I tried to reconcile on my way out the door. It had nothing to do with my H, guilt, remorse or any of the other stuff I am supposed to be feeling. I needed to check the "I tried everything" box.

What I've learned: I need to fix me. My H is not a mind reader. I need to fix me. My H wants me to be happy. I need to fix me. My H can't modify what he's doing if I don't tell him what I need. I need to fix me.

How things are: Surprisingly, not hideous. I was thinking that at best I might end up with a M that was somewhere between not actively horrible and tolerable, and I probably would have settled for that in the end if it weren't for MB.

The reality is, my A got my H's attention and he realized he needed to show up for the M. Were there other, less drastic ways to get his attention? I don't know. I do know I tried as best I could, but my best wasn't good enough because I didn't have the right tools.

The reality is that if I had gone forward with my plan to file for a divorce in May instead of taking up with OM in March, we would be in divorce court now. My H would have been devastated and asked for a chance to save the M, but I was so incredibly done there is no way I would have been open to that.

Hello:

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I get the part about getting his attention. My wife has said she tried to get it and yes, I also agree with the "is this as good as it gets?

My wife of 10 years started an affair back in June just three months after our adopted son from Africa arrived. We now have four children

To spare all the lies and this and that. She has filed for divorce just 2.5 months after I found out about the affair. I have been exposing and working on the Plans

So for now she is "done". No chance, tells everyone its over. Went as far as to file for divorce. And tells our common friends that there was no affair at all. It's all about me and how I messed up the marriage

Of course she admitted the affair to me and the sex. But tells me that is what I want to hear since I can't look at myself as the reason...

So why the "no way" from you and also her? What got you to the point where "no way" became "I'll try now" or "maybe"?

I am interested to find out how long it took for that to change and why it changed in you. What happen to make you change?

Thank you so much...

-DAT68

I just went back and read this again and I think you answered my questions. My kids were jumping up and down ready to go outside and make smores and I did not read it clearly..

Thanks for sharing your story.

-DAT68

Dat68,

My wife of 10 years started an affair back in June just three months after our adopted son from Africa arrived. We now have four children

Interesting timing, did your wife or you come up with the adoption idea? In my recent experience, limited as it is, there was one spouse who was luke warm about the adoption in the couples who adopted or were thinking of doing so.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma:

We tried years ago and then she became pregnant and we had to stop. In Feb. 2009 we decided together to do it again. She went ALL OUT on the paperwork. A woman on a mission let me tell you.

Then in Feb. 2010 we went and got him. But during that year of paperwork, she told a common friend we were done and it was too late to stop the adoption process which is so untrue.

So in Mid June 2010 I found out about her affair and three weeks later she left (July 11th)

She told me in June that she went through with it because she had "hope" we could be fixed. But she ran to another man and ran from me

-DAT68

And just to add to that, we both wanted it and neither of us were forced into it. It was very much a joint decision and we were both 100% committed to wanting it to happen

-DAT68

I am a FWW. My A was 4 years ago. I could go on and on about my poor lonely life, a husband who wouldn't touch me, a roommate style marriage, a realization that at 37 there were things in my life I was never going to get to do, blah blah blah...

Here's the real deal. As my life began to not go exactly to my liking, I became more and more put out and self absorbed. Since there's all sorts of psychobabble out there telling me I was normal, I of course didn't see this for what it was. I began to decide that I was entitled (key word there) to some happiness, and if DH wasn't going to step up, then I'd just "take care of me" however I had to...after all, we poor mothers and wives never get any admiration or "me" time.

So, when OM began to pay attention to me...yeah, I knew inside it was dangerous. I was just too selfish to care. That's not what I called it at the time. I made up some poor me neglected sexless life thingy. But I wanted what I wanted, I was selfish, so I ate up the attention and hopped in the sack.

Why did I stop??? Well, it didn't happen overnight, but at some point I started seeing what I was doing and what I had voluntarily become. And it made me sick. All the bull--- about how this or that my DH and life was or wasn't feel away in the face of this truth....I selfishly, willfully gave my mind, heart, and body to another man while DH was oblviously watching our children each Satruday. And I just broke. I confessed, and the HARD part began.

Where are we now...well, I can say we are completely recovered from the A. It is just part of the past's taperstry now. We still struglle with some things because we are imperfect humans. We don't have what I call a "stepford marriage." But we are working. We love each other. It's a journey.

My final thought is this. Adultery is absolutely wrong...absolutely. And any wayward spouse who is not able to see THEIR wrong without wrapping it in the perceived wrong of their spouse....has some work to do. Until a WW is ready to take full responsibility with no pretty "buts," it's going to be hard to recover. But when your WW finally comes to that place of REAL humility and desire to change......wonderful things can happen.

I am soooo glad to see a former wayward state this so clearly. My wife had an EA, and this is the one big thing that has come out of countless hours of counseling, reading, talking, etc. As one friend - our former pastor - said, 'she has a hole in her soul, and she's PO'd at you because you can't fix it, and now she's looking for other men to fix it. No one can do this but her.' This is so true. I think she is finally coming to realize this. I really wish that I could show her your post.

This is also very true in our case. I needed to 'show up', and the EA got my attention. I have learned so much from this site, from Dr. H's books (as well as other authors) and from counseling. I am a better person and husband because of this. Now, more than 10 months later, we are still trying to recover. I just don't think we'll ever be the same, because as of now, she still has that 'hole in her soul'.

Surely, though, we all realize that an A is a pretty horrible way to get someone's attention.

What made me come back was when the fog finally lifted, I was in my Alien state for almost 9 months, and I was gone for 10 day's from wheels and my family. Let me give you an example of what my feelings where BEFORE the affair.

I was happy, excited, loving, spiritual, and full of life.

Now let me tell you want I was like DURING the affairs....

Sad, depressed, resentful, angry, upset, and hated my life. (can you guess who has the same qualities? The adversary.)

Can you see the difference? I KNEW something was going wrong with me, (Satan loves tearing families apart) and the only way for me to get out of this affair fog was exposure, that pretty much did it for me. Once that fog lifted I only knew ONE thing what I wanted, and that was...

TO GET MY LIFE BACK HOW IT WAS BEFORE THE AFFAIRS!!

So I have a question, why do you think all of a sudden my feelings changed AS SOON as I started my affairs??

And what I have learned: Is that all marriages have their difficulties, but AFFAIRS are NEVER the answer to fixing your problems, they just make them worse!

My life with wheels before the affairs where perfect, we had everything going for us, but since my affairs there is now a little open cut that I have to sew up so we can have that perfect life again.

The worst. An open, honest relationship would never get to that point. And, as I'm finding out, it will take a long, long time for both spouses to recover.

Lurioosi2,
I want to thank you for answering this thread, It gives me hope to see that over time a wayward can see an affair for what it is and that the entitlement feeling that happens during that time is wrong and that the marriage cannot be fixed or thought about in the right context while that thought process happens for the wayward.......
I am so proud of you for doing the work to better yourself and your marriage in the process......It takes a strong person to admit fault within ourselves.....when things aren't perfect it takes strength not to waiver from our commitments, some times we fail, but you bounced back to your true self and I for one am very proud of you,
Remember no marriage is perfect, but getting through the tough times with inner strength and continuing to work on your problems is the key to happiness...
Happy for you in your recover and your discovery........hoping to be in the same boat one day.........my husband was the wayward......I hope one day he can say what you have said as well............

SR:

My wife is also at the point of anger. She moved out last week, and had filled for divorce (just 2.5 months after she told me she was not happy but would work in it and then bailed).

We just spoke via text about the kids yesterday and we agreed were to meet Tuesday to exchange the kids.

She made a comment about how "we finally agreed on something" and I said see, all you have to do is talk things through.

I then got the "yeah, like getting the divorce final"

Just angry, even her Mom and one of our common friends told her she was "angry".

I have a hard time thinking that she is upset, confused, depressed, etc right now.

Were you when you first left? If so, why? If not, how long till you were?

I am trying to learn more about the mind behind all this.

I am just confused as to what makes a person leave their spouse, the house, and want to share 4 children (one that just was adopted 3 months prior) all for "I miss my twenties and is this all my life is going to be" (she is 35 and her affair is with a 20 year old from work)

My wife was pregnant at 20 (prior to meeting me) and has told me how she misses her twenties because of that and I think she is trying to find them again

Thanks again

-DAT68

Honestly, dont delve too much in understanding the mind behind a wayward. They have the same tendencies of a coke addict, and will do anything to get the next fix. So they lie scheme and re-write history. Is about that simple. If something is getting in the way of their fix they get angry.

SR tried to analyze why she said the things during her affair, and it came out to be the same thing every time. It was a lie to justify the affair, and convince herself that she is entitled to it. Her actions were based on the same thing, to get the next fix, and she would tread on anyone that got in the way. That was until exposure, and people really saw why she was angry all the time, why she was treading on people and lying.

"If something is getting in the way of their fix they get angry."

Ahhh.....I never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.

Thanks

-DAT68

Dat:

She is dating a 20 year old from here workplace?

Have you exposed this Affair to the people that they both work with? (Your WW saying that "nobody cares" doesn't count...)

And BTW, a 20 year old isn't going to be THAT interested in hanging with 4! kids. Talk about missing your twenties!

Make a phone call to OM and ask him how HE feels about 4 kids around the house all the time.

Time to fight DAT. You have been WAY to passive. Time to start fighting for this marriage of yours.

Your in the right place to have that fight also.

LG

lousygolfer:

Oh yeah, exposed this to everyone starting back in July. I am far into this.

Our common friends know, I contacted her workplace, parents, brothers, everyone.

I have been fighting, but like I have been reading, the begging and pleading has since stopped. We are in different homes now, and I have told her no contact at all unless its about the kids.


I am trying to figure out the wayward mind a little better at this point, that's all.

Thanks for your feedback, helps A ALOT...!

-DAT68

PS....Yes a 20 year old from her workplace and she is 35 and our oldest is 14...Ugghhhh

Yes after wheels exposed me two days later I left to live with my sister, I knew this person I became was not me, and I needed to help me before I can make a decision, let me tell you the feelings (towards wheels) I had before I left to live with my sister in CO

I hated him, I resented him, I didn't want to be with him any longer, and I quickly wanted to fix me so I can leave and have a good conscious doing so.

But what ended up happening was....

After 6 hours of being in CO something happened. Change of heart I suppose it's all I can think what it could have been.

During those hours I did not think about the OM I thought about wheels and my family, and since the fog was started to lift after he exposed, I believe it was totally gone when my heart changed. The whole time I was there (10 days) I was working on myself, and reading everything I can get my hands on about building marriages, building relationships, and reading self help books.

By the time I was home I was 110% ready on working on the marriage.

You need to go to plan B LIKE NOW!!

Before I would recommend Plan B, I would like to know how his Plan A went. He is 2.5 months in. With an A, adoption, seperation, etc.

DAT: Tell us what has happened since DDay, and how your Plan A went.

LG

Well, PLAN A I am not sure....I did not find this site until after I made a fool of myself. Begged, pleaded, exposed.

Did a lot a love busting, stuff I did not know about until a friend turned me to this site.

Basically I found out about the affair from her texting a co-worker of hers. She left on July 11th after telling me three weeks prior that we would work on it. It was all BS

So as of August 12th, we have not spoken other than kids stuff. She moved out on the 18th (this time she took her stuff, July 11th she just left and came back to see the kids once in awhile).

So for almost two weeks now, its been dark but not dark when the kids need to be discussed.

She is hot a cold when I see her when we exchange the kids. One day she is talk talk talk about them and I say "ummmm hmmm and ok" and other days she is cold and does not want to talk and I am fine with that.

So where do you think I should be right now?

Thanks

-DAT68

I did the "younger man" thing too. Just a big shallow ego trip.

We all make choices in life. At 18, I had the chance to sing with a well know Christian group. It would have fit in perfectly with my "become the next Sandi Patti" plan. But I wanted to finish college. What would have come? Don't know. At 22 I wanted to marry a guy. I broke off the engagement mainly because of my mother. What would have become? I don't know. When I stood next to my DH during the opening remarks at our wedding, I got the rush of nausea and urge to run. What would have become? I don't know.

What did happen is that I pledged to God and DH my love, honor, and faithfulness for as long as we both shall live. I gave birth to two amazing children. I took various teaching jobs. So at 37, my life was where I CHOSE for it to be. I didn't "lose" my 20's...I lived through every moment of them, and they were over.

I am of the opinion that "mid-life crisis" really means "I need a hip sounding phrase to call my shallow selfish choices and idiotic decisions to hurt others." If I sound unsympathetic, it is because I am. I will save my sympathy for someone who is willing to be honest enough to have a chance to save what they have chosen to throw away.

Run an excellent Plan A for about 6 to 8 weeks.

Blow up the fantasy of the Affair.

Blow up the fantasy of the "happy" divorce.

Is the friend who pointed you here a poster here? Do you know who? They can speak to you in person about this.

Ask the OM how many diapers he is willing to change.

LG

ITA

[quote=Wheels_spinning]Honestly, dont delve too much in understanding the mind behind a wayward.[quote]

I'm destined to never get the quote thing down.

With all due respect, I don't agree with Wheels. I think you have to have some idea what is going on in your WW's head if you want to reconcile. It's an ugly mess in there, let me tell you, but if you want her back, you are going to have to show up with a mop and a broom and be prepared to help her cart huge piles of trash to the dump.

I agree that all A's are selfish, but I don't think the inquiry should end there.

Your WW's behavior is so wildly out of the box it positively screams "desperate" to me. She's a 35 year old mother of four with a new baby having an A with a 20 year old -- I find it very difficult to believe that there is any fantasy to be dispelled. I seriously doubt either one of them is thinking about building a life together post D.

I'm not seeing the typical WW scenario here where she thinks there is some "happily ever after" with OM. There is something else going on with her.

I think of anger as related to a specific event and rage as free floating and amorphous. IMO, your W isn't "angry" -- she is enraged. She's blowing up her life on purpose because she needs the outside of her life to look like the inside.

For well over a month post DD2, I shut off virtually all communication with the outside world. I refused to answer the phone or the door. I didn't respond to emails or text messages. I pulled weeds and planted hundreds of flowers, took care of my boys and went to see my psychiatrist once a week -- and the first time I saw him after DD2, I handed him a bullet point list describing my raging psyche and told him it was his turn to talk.

I resisted the urge to kick out every window in the house, set my H's clothes on fire and call the lawyer.

And I'm the wayward. That's not the way I was supposed to feel.

The rage -- oh my God, the rage was so all consuming that at times I had a hard time breathing. I thought it was going to consume me.

The rage had not one thing to do with OM or some ridiculous notion that my H was keeping me from him. The rage was there before the A. My A was rage incarnate.

My heart is pounding just writing about that time. It was horrible and exhilarating and cathartic and excruciating.

I still don't feel particularly remorseful. I don't beat myself up over the A. I was desperate and furious and in utter despair -- I think I did the best I could with the tools I had. None of that is what I am supposed to be thinking and feeling. I'm supposed to be thinking like SR. Maybe the fact that I don't feel what I'm supposed to feel means that my efforts at reconciliation are doomed to failure. No way to know.

But here's the thing -- last night I asked my H to sit by me while we watched TV and held his hand because I WANTED to. Two months ago I could barely stand to be in the same room with him. I've accepted that I am responsible for teaching my H how to treat me so I'm teaching him which has meant I figuring out how I want to be treated. And when he treats me that way, I like him and want to be around him.

I'm not going into the stuff I'm doing to make him feel safe as that isn't the point of this thread.

I'll leave you with one thought -- have you made it clear to your WW that she is safe admitting to you that she is just wrong?

It is directly contrary to what I was told I needed to do, but I made it clear to my H that the price of admission to reconciliation is that he table the A weapon for the time being. That position may also doom my efforts to failure, but there was no way I was going to reach across the emotional chasm without that assurance. He had to prove to me that it was emotionally safe for me to come back.

There's a momentum to these things -- backing down from all the public stuff may feel impossible to her in the absence of a safe place to which she can retreat.

Dat68, as a FWW 4 years out from D-Day and still married, I will tell you a few things:

Her A was not your fault. I don't care what you "did" to her, how you "acted" toward her, what you "said" to her. Her A was not your fault

She is not entitled to reconciliation until she puts down the protection induced pride and quits trying to distract others from what SHE has chosen to do. If she is one of those people who has made a lifestyle out of all sorts of elaborate ways to avoid personal responsibility, this may take awhile.

A true recovering addict never ever implies or says that his drinking was okay because he couldn't help it or someone made him do it or life sucked. He takes personal responsibility and makes amends. A truly repentant wayward does the same.

I could argue a very good case as to why I felt the way I did in the years before my A. It would sound very plausible to a feel good therapist or make a great Cosmo article. I might even convince a few people. But ya know, spreadin' my legs for another man besides the father of my children to whom I am married would still be filthy.

If someone walked into my DH's office and tortured him slowly before killing him, I wouldn't much give a flying rip if the killer had a really good "reason" for being mad at him.

Okay, I feel my BP rising. I better go breathe some deep cleansing breaths or something

Golfer:

He is a friend from about 10 years ago. We are friends on FB and one day I posted something regarding the A and he called me and told me about this site. I have no clue what his name on here is

Odd that someone you have not really talked to in 10 years comes to the rescue

-DAT68

SW - add a / between the [ and the q in the last set of brackets. Think of it like [open] and [/close].

so [ quote ] without spaces and your quote text is here and then finish without spaces with: [ /quote ]

end t/j

Saddestwife:

"I'll leave you with one thought -- have you made it clear to your WW that she is safe admitting to you that she is just wrong?"

No I have not, the only thing I left her with is that once "he new life has run it's course" that she knew my number and where I lived. I told her no contact AT ALL unless the kids were involved and for the most part she has agreed and done so.

Too be honest, she did call me about 3 weeks into my finding out about the affair and she told me then this was all her fault. That feeling lasted maybe 2 days on her part. But since then, she has been hell bent to end this and move on.

She also told me one night about a month into this and told me she wanted to work on it and then texted 14 hours later to tell me she did not see us getting back together. So for the first month she flipped flopped a lot.

My lawyer just sent me a email and she is meeting with her lawyer to draw up the divorce papers in the morning, and I am guessing I will have them in a week or two. In my state you have to be separated at least one year. So far, we have been separated not a month yet.


I also just saw her about 20 minutes about our kids "meet your teacher" event at school. It was like "who the hell are you". She and I were ok, not nasty looks or comments at all. She just looks UGLY on the outside and on the inside when I see her.

I know that is not a nice comment, but I think hate is taking over me and that is not how I want to feel. Pissed off yes, but not hate.

-DAT68

I am so so sorry you are dealing with this, DAT68. Nobody should have to go through the pain of being a BS. I am even more sorry that your WW is still in the "all about her phase." And you're right...there's nothing uglier or more narcissistic.

Lurioosi2:

Yeah it's been a mess since mid June, just starting to deal with the fact that she is gone. Kids start school in the morning and that is good. They have been home all summer with my oldest babysitting and I am sure they are more than sick of that.

Time is get some structure back into their lives. Just hurts when I get the "when is mommy coming home?" My wife does have her own place now and we do share them, just sucks that they are involved in this crap

-DAT68

Hang in there. I was....bad wayward. About as melodramatic and entitled and pathetic and deluded by my own pseudo-intellectual "I'm the exception" crap as they come. If my hard heart and hard head could be broken, ANYONE'S can.

I agree that she does not have the backbone. If she is asked hard questions by anyone of our common friends, she either ignores it or gives such s BS answer that people see through it.

One of our common friends made a few comments to her in an email after my wife sent her an email stating she would call. Well after the "hard questions / comments" our friend made, my wife never called and once our friend called her, the conversation was short

Yeah, it's a straight case of run from your problems, don't / won't face them.

But as she tells everyone, "the kids are fine"....YEAH RIGHT...!

-DAT68

DAT, honestly, I have read so much here that I was shocked at how quickly I found this quote for you from mimi_be (?) posted in 2003 (?). It stuck with me enough to hunt for it for you for an hour.

"WS DOES NEED A ROAD MAP BACK HOME (as suggested by Espoir and MM): This is the transition piece that we have been talking about in my thread towards the end of the A. My WS stated that he wanted to end the A, come home months ago but needed to feel that there was a way out FOR HIM . If there was not a way out, he thinks he would have given up and just stayed in his mess. I would imagine that the WAY OUT will look different for different people. For him, he wanted a nice place to stay. A refuge continues to be important to him. Also, he is very proudful and needed to be sure that he would not be humiliated by me, my family or the kids. This all can be spelled out specifically in one or more PB letters. I wrote a couple of letters, I think. My FWS referred back to those. Also, I opened up lines of communication in the end regarding my terms for reconciliation.

HANGING IN THERE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON: Regardless of the outcome of this for me, I am happier with myself. It's unbelievable to me that I am saying this. I am a stronger, more self-confident person. So even if my H goes back to the OW, God forbid, I now will not take it as a rejection of me. I know that I did everything I could possibly do to save my marriage. Now it's on him. If he leaves, it will be his loss. He knows this about me now and has grown to respect me."

I think they ended up reconciled, but I can't be sure. I gather she sort of dropped out of sight after a time.

Not my words. Hope this helps.

Saddestwife:

I did send her a letter maybe a month ago stating that I wanted her to end the affair and that once that was over I would like to create an a place for her in our house that was peaceful and loving and where we could begin to work on our marriage.

So to back track a little from I said before, yes I believe I have said this too her that she has a way back

I guess I am confused. Should I flat out tell her that she has a safe place to come back to and that the door is open if she feels the need to walk through it. Or is the letter I sent enough?

She knows I want her to come back and work on us. She knows how I feel and that I forgive.

At this point we have agreed to only discuss children related topics and today is meets with her lawyer to write up divorce papers. So she is in the process in my mind to end this

I stated before how dedicated she was doing the paperwork when we adopted this year. So here is another stack of paperwork that in my mind she is going to be "like a woman on a mission" to get every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed on.

So basically, she is in "no more it's over" mode. Other than going dark from her, what should my move be right now?

Thank you so much for posting that and finding that. It does help more than you know and I thank you so much for helping me during this time in me life!

-DAT68

Your next move right now...is YOU!

Start taking care of yourself...

exercising
new clothes
new hair cut
Read some self help books
etc...

DO NOT worry about your WW, she is gone, she is not the person you married, so let it be and start taking care of yourself, keep yourself busy!

Good luck

Saddest:

I see that you are making progress. Keep it up.

Your quote above, is from Mimi. She DID recover her marraige after her H's affair. He had moved out, and was cavorting with a 25 year old.

Mimi was a mess. Than she found MB, executed a great Plan A, then a good plan B. To the extent that she sold her "dream House" that her and her H had built.

The day in Plan B when she planted the "for sale" sign in the driveway, was the day the A started to crumble. It was over not much longer, but the house was still sold.

She recovered her marriage. SW would do very well to read Mimi's posts.


LG

Dat:

Making the marraige "safe to return to" isn't something that happens in one day, or one letter. It is a series of actions that are consistent on your part over a period of time leading to this result, and pierces the fog of your Wayward Wife.

She is probably, at about 6 months in, at her most flaming entitlement point of an affair. She may get worse, she may get better, but EVERYTHING right now that is wrong in her life is YOUR FAULT.

SW has expressed this attitude quite bluntly on your thread so far.

And it is important to have some knowledge about what is going on in your WW head. Sun Tzu in the "Art of War" states quite clearly that you should "know your enemy". And if you do, you will be prepared for her remarks, outbursts, and actions, and be looking at them when they happen, not with surprise, but with bemused detachment.

You don't have to understand EVERYTHING in her brain, just the WW parts that are in control right now.

Your three months into this. Please give us some idea what your life was like before see got involved in this A. Be honest, and be blunt. None of us are perfect, and her choice to have an affair is NOT YOUR FAULT, but the state of your marriage is 50% yours.

Thru this analysis, we find out how to address your WW most important EN's. If you were getting yours met, if its possible for her to meet your EN's, and reflect on where you really where in your marriage, with the benefit of hindsight.

With this info, we may well think you should run the other way, or to keep fighting for this M. This is Marriage Builders, so the bias is the work towards recovery, but that is not true in every case. We just want to understand and to help you explore if it IS worth saving.

LG

Repeat it. But don't be a doormat. There should be clearly spelled out conditions -- actually, I don't like the term "conditions" -- it smacks of coersion to me. I like boundaries. Boundaries are about you, not her, and since you can't control her anyway, you need to keep the focus on you.

You can make it playful and flirty -- "hey, you look really great today -- I love that color on you. Reminds me of the time we were at the beach and took a walk to the pier -- you were wearing that same color and I couldn't take my eyes off of you. I can't wait to have my sexy wife back home as soon as you completely end your A."

No contact (NC) with the other man (OM), with you given the opportunity to verify, must be a non-negociable boundary. You'll go crazy otherwise, plus, although she won't see it this way, it's for her own good. Sadly, I know what I'm talking about here.

On D-Day (DD) 3, NC was the only condition my H put on me. At that point, I knew full well how incredibly screwed up I was. I told him that I wouldn't commit to something I wasn't sure I could do, that I had imposed NC on myself many times, but never stuck with it, that I wasn't trustworthy on any level as I didn't even trust myself, and that, while I hoped to become a trustworthy person again, I had no idea when or even if that would happen. I decided maybe I'm just a lying, cheating, mean hearted bi%^*.

We divided the assets, discussed how to handle the children, and parted. All I felt was enormous relief. I had zero interest in contacting OM.

What happened? I realized that if I couldn't trust myself to end the clearly absurd relationship I had with OM, I surely couldn't trust myself to make a decision as big as a D.

I decided not to decide anything except to end the A. My only goal every day was to not contact OM and I devoted virtually all of my emotional energy to that. I ran over every scenario I could think of that might lessen my resolve and made a plan to get past it. Instituting and maintaining NC was the single most important thing I needed to do, more important than my H or my kids or my mother who went into the hospital for 8 days for heart surgery -- I called her exactly once for three minutes because she is so toxic to me that I feared I would spend so much emotional energy I would lose faith and contact OM.

I came here, started posting and fighting, and read. One day I stumbled on a post from Just Learning on Hitch2007's thread about setting boundaries, and something clicked. This was the ticket out of my self imposed hell, a hell that was not limited to my M. My boundary issues -- as in I don't have any -- infect every relationship I have. I figured I needed to start practicing on someone and it may as well be my H as I didn't much care what he thought since we were getting a D anyway.

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum....

I told H my biggest issue which is expecting me to drop what I'm doing when he needs something. Since he works at home and I am a stay at home mom, I was constantly available for whatever. My Giver always complied with his needs. This made my Taker exceedingly unhappy. If you haven't read Dr. Harley's article on the Giver and Taker, do it. You have FOUR children -- I'd be shocked if your W's Giver isn't worn out and her Taker is driving the train.

H doesn't like my independent behavior so I check in with my specific plans. He hasn't demanded or even asked me to do that. I view it as basic a basic courtesy I have neglected, made all the more critical because of my A. I mean really -- letting him worry and stew is just mean. I goof up -- last Saturday I went to get my nails done which I knew was going to take twice as long as usual, but I didn't think to mention that. After a few hours he asked me in a really tight voice where I had been and that's OK -- I have to stay mindful, but that's just being nice. He's not being as controlling because I'm checking in.

Anyway, we set some boundaries. He doesn't interrupt me any more. I tell him what I'm doing. I like him better so I treat him better. He likes me better so he treats me better.


You have a year before you can be legally divorced. Let her have at it. It gives her the illusion she is moving forward.

But I wouldn't participate. No where is it written that you have to show up at the lawyer's office. Set a boundary -- "I am not going to meet with you and your lawyer, ever. You are free to proceed of course, although I hope you won't. However, understand that I am not going to facilitate the process for you. If you feel you must go forward, I respect that decision. Have your lawyer send me the papers and I will respond in due course."

I used to be a trial lawyer (I think I told you that?) The family lawyers that I know would slow walk your W big time. She's clearly unstable and there are four children at stake. ALL litigation favors the party who wants to delay, put off and postpone. And all of that delaying, putting off and postponing gets really expensive, really quick. How is she paying for the lawyer? You can use the time and expense to your advantage.



Talking about the kids is a great opportunity for you to make some $LB deposits.

I'll tell you what our MC told my H: "Mothers experience criticism of their children as criticism of them, even when that criticism comes from the father." I would never have been able to articulate that but it is so true. So if my H would say, for example, our son doesn't brush his teeth often or well enough, I experience that as "you have failed to teach your son basic hygiene." Is that what H was really saying? Of course not. But that's how moms are.

So praising your children to your wife is praise of her. Don't get all obvious and say "you have done such a great job." Pick stuff you know she has focused on and praise the kid, not her. For example, you have a 14 year old. She either is or isn't wearing make up. Your W has addressed that. You say "I am so impressed that D14 doesn't wear make up when all her friends are" or "have you noticed how much more tasteful D14's makeup is than her friends?"

Asking W's advice is another kind of praise. "How in the world do I get the S to put his dirty clothes in the hamper -- you managed that well. What's your secret?

You said you hate your W, and why wouldn't you? She's being hateful. But the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. I was swinging in between hate and indifference for years prior to and in my A. Indifference was the bigger threat. As long as you hate each other, there is something to work with. Have you watched the video blurb from Dr. H on the home page? Do it.

I follow you and Northwood because I see something a different from the typical WW A profile. I see women who are in enormous, soul destroying pain who don't see a way out and are blowing up their lives not out of some BS love for their soulmate OM, but because they hurt so badly they have to do something, even if it's wrong.

And call SteveH. You need a plan. Seriously. I'm not all that easily impressed, and I've only spoken to him the one time (second time tomorrow) but he knows stuff.

Saddestwife:

That was an earful!!!! I need to go back and read it again but WOW, thanks for the words...

I will also follow up with comments today.

LG:

I will post our life prior to June 2010 shortly also.

Getting a little emotional with all this great support..!

Thank you ALL so much. I will post more shortly

-DAT68

OK. Who ARE you and what did you do with saddestwife?

LG:

We met in 1998 and at the time she was seeing married man (I know I know)....During that time she and I became best friends and she had a 2 year old. About 2 years later we starting dating. Her affair at the time had been over more than a year.

We moved into together and I became a "father" to her daughter.

We tried to have children and after 4 miscarriage's we had a son in 2004. Tried to adopt the next year and she became pregnant again and we had a daughter.

2.5 years later (FEB 2009) we decided to adopt.

Her reason for leaving is that I "emotionally abused her".

Yes, I was not there for her emotionally all the time, yes we did not kiss and say I love you everyday.

I have an issue with shutting down. Even if the issue is not family related. I don't know what it is, I just go into a whole and stop interacting. She knows this and can see it coming and will once in while say "I see it coming".

I never hit her, she never needs to look for me, stable in work, paycheck in the bank every two weeks and I do a lot with the kids. We vacation when we can and do family events.

However, when we do fight, the gloves come off from both of us. Name calling, not talking for 2-3 days, we both are alpha in the marriage to say the least.

So FEB 2009 we start and FEB 2010 we go to Africa and bring home a 4 year old.

Late June she tells me she is unhappy and wants out but will work on it.

July 11 she leaves and stays with a friend. July 20th we have our first appointment to seek marriage help and the night of July 19th she tells me its over.

Prior to that on July 3rd I found an email she sent a friend about the OM and sex. She denied it

July 8th she talked me into buying for her and with her a new BMW
July 9th I had the text logs from her phone and the OM's phone to match it

Confronted her that day, she admitted it and wanted to move forward and fix us.

2 days later she left.

Lies after lies since then. And to top it off, she is 35 and the OM is 20...I am 42

She has said to me over and over she misses her twenties. She was pregnant at 20 so I think she sees this guy at the point where she started to "miss her twenties" because she was pregnant

As far as us, yes we fight, and yes we have said hurtful things to each other. However, since we started dating in 2000, we have had three kids together, we have grown as a family together, 401K's, bought a house together and then another that was bigger, new cars, education funds together for the kids, etc. If you call that "normal progression" then yes we had that.

Now she hates me, is nice to me when we talk and cold sometimes. She came over this morning to walk to the bus stop for the first day of school, grabbed a few things from the house and was nice to me.

The 14 year lives with her full time and really does not like me anymore. She sides with her natural parent, her Mother.

Today my wife told me I needed to call her (the 14 year old) more and asked if taking our 14 year old Saturday and having some fun would be something I would like? I said of course!

So why? Why does she want to fix the relationship with the 14 and I? I know why it needs to be fixed, I am her Dad...But why would she care?

As far as our sex life...1-2 times a month was normal, sometimes more. Having 4 kids run the house makes sex almost funny.

"kids just all went outside, lets run upstairs"...Start - knock on door stop. O.k they left - start - knock on door - Start - knock on door. NO KIDDING!

Or it was 5:30 in the morning in the walk in closet while everyone was asleep

During the adoption process my wife started working at a KFC. Starting talking and hanging with 20-25 year olds. She loves that HS gossip stuff. Half her FB friends are like Class of 2010

So some 20 year old came along and started his nice talk to her and she took the bait. My wife is a little over weight and I have lost 42 pounds. My wife runs a lot, got me involved and now I can fun faster and farther.

This guys does not care about that, he wants her naked a few times. She takes the compliments and acts on it.

35 year old housewife and mother of 4 with a 20 year old that drinks and partied a lot. Were is that future?

I told her, he is a guy, so am I, he wants sex alone and once he's got it out of his system AND once he turns 21 and can get into bars, HE IS DONE WITH YOU!

Ugghh...I am getting upset....So I will stop there. There is more to it and I will gladly share..

So she claims no affair happen to ALL our common friends. Then why 3 months after our son got here from Africa and after you said yes to marriage help did you bail out and leave?

-DAT68

Dat:

Thanks for all the info.

So, you have a problem with shutting down? Until you decide to attack back as the Alpha guy?

Please learn about the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) here. She may not be on board, but maybe one of the things that you could address in a letter to here, is how you saw this dynamic NOT woring in your marriage, so that in the future you could do it "this way".

Plan A is about addressing your side of the street, while trying to meet EN's that you are allowed to meet by the wayward spouse.

She wants you to be a "friend" with her DD14 so that it isn't the WW's fault that your relationship with DD14 is blown up.

You are the ONLY person this girl KNOWS as a father. Act like one. Go see DD14 and invite her to family activities with her siblings. Send her short texts aksing her how she is. She has been pulled AWAY from you by someone who doesn't have her best interests at heart. And WW has probably told DD14 how evil you really are. But even estrogen charged 14YO's understand right and wrong. And you need to start building YOUR case for being in the right on all this.

I didn't realize there was a new flavor on the menu at KFC....

The lack of SF in the marriage can be prevented. Children can be taught that there is time for Mommy and Daddy. And Mommy and Daddy have to plan for thier time. That's why the Harleys have 15 hours of Undivided Attention (U/A) time a week. Where the two of you are together, without the distractions of the kids, tv, sports, school, etc... Sound impossible? What do you think this divorce is going to cost? $10k to lawyers, and becasue of two houses, and breaking up house equity, 401k's etc, another 20-30K.

Finding UA time is alot cheaper...

Work the UA, shutting down, and "alpha" angles. They may make a world of difference in her stating that you are emotionally abusing her.

As for the denying the A thing, that is her idea of protecting herself from being labeled a cheater. "I decided to exit the marriage, move out, and then "BOOM" OM showed up! Its an amazing love story isn't it?" Its all garbage. And its what she will continue to tell others, unless you expose it for what it really is. Your talking to a mutual friend, and they state the WW has said that it all happened "after", just calmly state that "No, it didn't, I have the TM's, and the email's, and other info that clearly indicate that this thing started three months before she moved out." Keep it simple.

LG


LG

LG:

I plan to fix the issues with my daughter no doubt.

I did invite her to a birthday party for her younger sister this past Saturday and once she got dropped off, she left the house and went to a friends. I sent her a text and she came back just to ask me why?

Sent her a text this morning and got nothing back and about 10 minutes ago. I am trying and won't stop trying.

"The lack of SF in the marriage can be prevented. Children can be taught that there is time for Mommy and Daddy. And Mommy and Daddy have to plan for thier time. That's why the Harleys have 15 hours of Undivided Attention (U/A) time a week. Where the two of you are together, without the distractions of the kids, tv, sports, school, etc... Sound impossible? What do you think this divorce is going to cost? $10k to lawyers, and becasue of two houses, and breaking up house equity, 401k's etc, another 20-30K."


How to I get this time when she wants nothing to do with me? I want this to work and 15 hours is NOTHING but for a person that won't try, how do I do this?

Thanks so much

-DAT68

BTW, I am seeing a counselor about my shutting down issue and have been for a couple months

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anywhere in here where it says you guys eventually got married. Did you?

Sorry, yes we got married in October 2004.....

-DAT68

dat68,

Thanks for creating not only a thread that helps you but also others. Just the other day I was thinking that the MB board needed a thread in which FWW shared their stories of marital recovery. No kidding.

Anyway, at the expense of hijacking your thread, I detect your disgust with wife sleeping with the 20 year old. I feel the same way about my WW. I understand her emotional attachment to the OM, but the sex, no way. Can FWW's explain the process by which they consented to having intercourse with another man? I don't get it, no pun intended.

------------------------------


Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

LG:

Can you point me to this "Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA"

I read it in your post but I have searched the site and I am not finding it

Thanks

-DAT68

POJA article

POJA when you incompatible

Problems with POJA?

Thanks lildoggie

-DAT68

I'm willing to answer this question, but am wondering if a new thread should be started?? Is this a question a lot of BH's have?

I'm not sure of the etiquette.

I am also willing to answer this question...although the answer might not be what you expect, as I tend to take a pragmatic view of my choice to blow someone's else's life to bits. In other words, the more I observe and hear and experience, the more the whole "hurt people hurt people" thing just seems like blame-shifting tripe.

dat, I would recommend THIS thread for an answer to your question. It is very thorough and it pretty much stamps out all the psychobabble reasons we tell ourselves that we cheat.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2305680&page=27

dat68,

If it's OK by you, can we discuss the topic I mentioned -- the mental process by which a WW consents to have intercourse with the OM -- on your thread?

----------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

MichaelJan:

That's fine with me.

I just read the post lurioosi2 posted and I think my heart just exploded. Made me a little sick to read that.

-DAT68

I reread my pragmatic post and I think it came out wrong. What I meant was that now, 4 years later, I can see very clearly all the bull I decorated for myself back in 2006

I 2006:
I slept with OM because he made me feel heard, he admired me, we talked about things, he was attractive in that grunge band irresponsible sort of way (mini puke), I had been sooooo lonely for sooooo long, DH didn't even see me anymore, we were like barely civil roommates, and I was dying inside, there was nothing for me in my life, OM was attracted to me, I thought I loved him (not so mini puke), my life was just soooooo (snif) painful (snif).....waaaaaaaaaahhh

In 2010

I slept with OM because my focus became all about me, I hardened my heart and myself against DH and what was right, I chose step by step to destroy what I promised to be faithful to until death so that I could feel good, I thought I deserved to be "happy."

As long as I had the 2006 mindset or any variation, I was still foggy and not really even worthy of recovery. The 2010 mindset (which crashed in on me pretty quickly - I say crashed because it's never fun to be honest about our failings without deflecting)was what was required for REAL recovery.

Oh, and I did not sleep with OM in 2010...that was just the back then versus now time frame! Yeeks

Sure you didn't......don't you know the truth ALWAYS comes out? (I'm kidding here -- sometimes my sense of humor doesn't translate well).

I had sex with OM because I didn't care. I didn't care about him. I didn't care about my H. I didn't care about my M. I didn't care about me.

I didn't care enough about myself to not crawl into bed with someone I barely knew. That's scary.

I. Just. Didn't. Care. I almost made my screen name idontcare.

So why not have sex? OM wanted to, so why not?

If it had occurred to me that my kids would be impacted, I would have run out of that room so fast I would have been a blur.

But then the sex was good, but not in the way you are thinking. I was already asking myself about my M "is this as good as it gets? Really? I'm supposed to grow old with HIM? I'm thinking no...." And I skipped on down the road to perdition.

The sex was good not because of OM, but because I was different. I'm going to tell this story because H's who have wives of a certain age might benefit from the insight.

I learned about sex from Catholic nuns. To say it was vague would be an understatement. The sum total of my mother's guidance on this was "don't lie down with someone until you are married," and she meant that quite literally -- she walked in on me and my then boyfriend H lying on the couch watching TV, and that's all we were doing. l learned most of what I knew from page 47 of The Godfather. I was so ashamed when I started my period that I didn't tell my mother for a year -- I stole tampons from the drug store and friend's houses. I believed that if I was in the presence of sperm I could get pregnant. The whole subject was taboo and shameful and terrifying.

I started dating my H when I was 15, and he was the first. He wasn't the only, but the shame was always, always there. Patterns of behavior were set and never changed. Good girls don't enjoy sex, and certainly don't need it. The point of the whole exercise was to please the man. I did enjoy SF with H, but that was never the point. And the act was never -- and frankly still isn't -- associated with any emotional or spiritual connection.

With OM, I felt like a woman for the first time in my life -- because it didn't matter what he thought because I Didn't Care. I felt free in a way I had never been with my H. My H didn't do anything overt to inhibit me but the message I received, sent or not, was keep it simple and quick.

So, I've taken what I learned about me with OM, and used it in my M, and now SF is great with my H, way better than I would have thought possible. And I have every reason to believe it will get ever better.

I went back and forth on whether to post this or not. The only reason to do it is if it might help someone else and I think of my story is somewhat unique, but it seems that however unique I might think my story might be, it isn't. Every fact pattern brought here is slightly different but there are underlying themes, one of which is ignorance about the other opposite sex and another of which is generational differences.

So there it is for what it is worth.

I'm glad you posted this, SW. I know it's very personal. I think it's an important point too, especially if I WW has been brought up to be very religious. Thanks to my parents and a good youth minister's wife, I wasn't taught that sex was bad, but there was certainly a big "don't do it or God will get you" cloud around. DH went to a VERY conservative seminary, so his purity gauge was firmly in place as well.

When I think about sex with OM, I don't think fond thoughts AT ALL, but like you, the only reason it seemed "good" was because it was about ME. The inhibitions were gone.

It makes me so angry at myself that I cheated us out of an uninhibited marriage bed for all those years. SF is still a struggle area for us, but not because of the A. But like you, I am not picking up my old fears about "what's okay" again. There's nothing better than uninhibited SF with the DH, the father of my kids. (I just wish it happened more often!)

dat,
Quick question. Did you ever contact OM directly? Just wondering (I may have missed it in your thread). When my H contacted my OM, it was a complete wake up call. He did it in front of me and it was one of the most shameful moments of my life. It completely made me realize how messed up the whole situation was. I know this doesn't work for some. But obviously OM wasn't too keen on communicating with me after speaking with my H! (Not that I wanted to after that anyway). (Also, his W found out before my H found out and she never contacted me. Hence it did not stop. I don't know if I would have stopped had she contacted me directly, but I tend to think that it would have at least been harder to continue after speaking with her directly).

To go along with the thread topic now, my mental process on how I consented to sleep with OM? Well, for me it was not about the sex. It was about an alternate reality. One that didn't include any responsibilies, one that was nothing but romance and compliments (I know, puke, right?), one that had no history, no judgements. At the time, it felt like a movie. Completely unreal.

I know that you might be preoccupied with the physical aspect of it. But I really can't say much about that. I think once your mind decides it will do something, your body follows along. It's all mental. (At least for me).

I obviously took the cowards way out. My marriage at that point was a complete wreck. And in my foggy mind, it was easier to create an alternate reality than to deal with the very poor reality that I had helped create. And because of this, it was easy for me to justify my behavior and blame my H for my bad choices. My H and I had very poor boundaries, terrible IB, complete lack of respect, etc. Of course, as everyone who is a former wayward learns later, it made things 100 times worse.

Hope this helps.
-txnatheart

Hi txnaheart

Yeah I sort of been in contact with him, nothing directly, just saw them together with the kids in my car. Issues is, he is 20 and could give a [censored]. He is from out of state and has had multiple addresses and I can't seem to find any relatives of his.

I am 42 and my wife is 35 and we have four kids.

At this point she has been gone a couple months and I am starting to sink into my new routine with kids.

I am in Plan B, I have zero contact with her. I have told her no contact unless one of the kids is bleeding. She is not happy with that, but neither am I am what she has done.

So for now I am letting her "hang herself" and if she comes back, we will have a LOOOOONG talk and I will decide if I can forget, if not, I am moving on with my life.

-DAT68

Hi txnaheart:

How long did your "fog" last?

-DAT68

Hi dat68,

Was going to reply to someone else here and saw your post and short thread. I just want to say something short and simple, what is the point of your inquiry? I can usually judge how valuable an exploratory thread like this is by the number of vets who respond. I am not a vet. I am just a guy who is still married for 41+ years. So far it looks like few responses. Considering your main thread, if I were you I would focus on doing all necessary on winning your W back and winning in your marriage rather than needless and seemingly provocative speculation. And, that is truly what this is, period. This in no way adds to marriage building, and this question is one you should ask your wife quite frankly, and not a random sample.

Sorry Luri, but I think most men would abhore their loved wives participating in this kind of speculation.

Take care,

Tom

You're right, Tom.

Hey Tom:

I have another thread I have been posting to and listening to and getting help. I guess since this is all new to me, I am just interested in the whole "mind set" and why people do this.

More of just an understanding I guess. I am in Plan B right now from the advice of vets on here and also Mr. Harley book.

It's just a interested of mine to understand more from people that have done this, that's all

-DAT68

Why did DAT ask this Q, Tom? Simple. KNOW THY ENEMY.

If he understands better what is going on in his WW's head, then he can react, act and address things that come from his foggy WW.

Pretty simple really.

LG

dat,
My fog lasted until H called OM. I think the shot of reality into my bubble really pushed me out of the fog. I know that the guy probably doesn't care, but maybe it would at least make it harder for him to continue. I'm not talking like a fighting/yelling confrontation. Really my H had a calm talk with OM and I think OM at that point realized how bad all of it really was.

Just a thought.

-txnatheart

I'm glad to see this thread. I've often wondered what, if anything, may have gone through OW's mind while the whole A and exposure played out.

Like LG said - Know the enemy.

Yes, I am also glad to see this thread. I told my WW about it so she could read it. Its only been 3 weeks since i found out about the A and I think she is having trouble letting go of the OM. I hope she finds closer from reading this thread.

Hi dat68,

Okay, I can understand your curiosity. It is sort of like getting the 'playbook' of another NFL team by picking that team's player off waivers or free agency. I don't think it does much good. The team losing that player will adjust and will never play exactly the same again. If they have the weapons on offense of defense, they will continue to exploit the gaining team even with their former player.

While I agree that having some surface knowledge may be good, it doesn't substitute for simply asking your W just why. This same question could be asked of WH's - I do not believe there is much of a difference.

I admit to you that one of the things that made me respond was the comment by 'saddest' "OM made me feel like a womean for the first time in my life". If my wife ever said that to me I would feel like a loser and I would ride off into the sunset suddenly, withour warning and just disappear. Short of that, I would want to know, and I did find out from my W, they why - and not from others, but from her. I did find out - it was her feeling of abandonment. I didn't have to know that 'what', or the mindset, I had to hear from her.

Just my thoughts, but I understand why you are doing this.

Take care,

Tom

In case any WWs want to read the first post my wife read on this forum, check out this oldie...

Dorry's Recovery Guide for Former Wayward Wives

Mark

Thank you Mark

Marital,

Sorry, but I disagree here. Let me give you a quote (and I know you pretty much hate my guts), but anyway...

It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.
Vince Lombardi

In an attempt to explain Lombardi's statement, and it applies to life as well as to football, it means that you can't let yourself spiral down when you are losing the game, but that you have to rely on who you are, and your faith in God (higher power) to pull yourself up. I also think he was implying that this takes humility as well.

Along this line, the enemy is not the wayward - the enemy is yourself as a BH or BW. You did not make the choice for your spouse to have an affair, but you damn well laid the groundwork for it to occur. Therefore, the enemy is simply the affair, AND past behavior and the mindset that that alientated your spouse.

So, what do you do. Well, you don't cower or resist change - that would have caused Lombardi to get rid of you if you were a player on his teams in the 1960's, and it will also cause your spouse to want to be rid of you. You dig down - you figure out the missed tackles, missed running opportunities, etc. - translated it means you figure out the times you did not admire her or express it, the times you engaged in IB, the times your job took precedence, the times you could have spent UA time with her, but you chose not to, the times you saw in her face that she wanted to be with you, but you walked away - in other words, the opportunities you had but you either were not up to it or just simply screwed up.

It takes humility AND discipine to correct this. From what I have seen here not many BH's have the discipline.

No Marital and others, it isn't so much knowing the enemy as much as it is knowing how to change yourself and to contribute to the team (e.e., the M). And LG, Lombardi did not win all those championships long ago in the 1960's because he had another team's playbook. He won because he was able to insitll in his players the courage and the discipline to look into themselves and to strive to make the changes that would contribute to the team.

Intersting topic, but you could debate this all day and still not be any closer to winning (i.e., a suuccessful marriage or recovery from an affair).

I just wanted to voice my opinion, and thanks.

Tom

I find this incredibly insightful. I think you just embodied my WW's outlook on the whole thing. Thanks you for sharing.

It wwasn't the lack of boundaries that enabled my wife's affair, it's the fact that she just didn't care at all.

I changed and my WH did not care because all he cared about was getting his fix with OW, so I could have turned into the most appealing and balanced W in the world and he still would have not noticed me.
Our M, by Steve Harley's opinion, was totally salvageable. Steve told my WH these very words: you are lucky to have a W who loves you and who knows already so much about saving the M and who is willing to go thru it with you accepting all the past and moving on together. Your wife is an intelligent and loving person and is already at a stage where it would take me months to get any other spouse to. She is willing to fully meet your needs and foster your happiness....
After that my WH announced he no longer wanted to do counseling...
It is not that simple my dear. And I do not feel like I am the looser.
blessing