So I have been super frustrated with my spouse and I am not really sure if its me that is going crazy or him that is driving me to be crazy. I am divorced with two girls age 11 and 9. He has no children and never has been married. We have been together for approximately 6 years right now and I am at a loss at to where our relationship stands. We have had our share of problems after the divorce, which still sneak up on all of us from time to time. The kids are 99.9% of time with us, the visit with their dad for few hours every over week. We have a challenging time communicating about the day to day things, and often that turns into an argument or us not talking to each other until things get to crazy and that is when we scream at one another for a little while and the whole cycle starts again. We have go to counseling and I think that helped a little, I would like to go back; however, my �other half� states that he know what the issues are and doesn�t need to go and pay someone to tell him. He is basically telling me I need to change something, but I am not sure what that something is. He is good to my kids, not perfect but a good role model for my children. He is home every night, attends their soccer or basketball games and coaches the younger one baseball, is involved in their church and/or school activities, checks their homework, takes them to the movies� etc� He really tries to be the best male figure he can be. However; our communication is really dray and short� We are not very intimate, he avoid contact with me, which can be hurtful to feel rejected in such way. I have broken into his e-mail/facebook/phone/other accounts and there is no signs of flirting/cheating, unless I am missing something. There are online dating e-mails, which I think we all get, but he does not act on them at all. He is not aware that I have cracked his passwords and am able to access his personal accounts. Since he doesn�t want to have anything to do with me I have convinced myself that he is cheating, which could be part of the problem and could be reflected in how interact with him. He does not come to bed approximately 50% of time, he sleeps on the couch, but he actually stays up late playing online game, which I have also been able to access and go through his e-mails and comments, and there are no signs of flirtation/cheating?!?!? So now I am at a loss, I don�t want to be upset about this anymore or feel like he is doing something behind my back and I also would like for us to reconnect somehow, even if that means I have to make changes. We have spoken about this numerous times and a good and not so good way and I have confronted him or accused him of cheating, for the simple fact that he doesn�t want anything to do with me, but that doesn�t get us anywhere. Please help!! Thank you!

You don't have to be in contact with your XH to be a good parent. I would stop all contact and have communications filtered through a neutral 3rd party who will act as a spam filter. Staying in contact with him is not good for you as a parent because it just causes you emotional trauma which sure does not help your parenting. Many psychologists recommend not being in contact with your X after a divorce for this very reason.
\
What day to day things can you have to discuss with an EX??? Why not resolve any outstanding issues and move on?

oh wait. Are your complaints about your XH or about some other dude you are shacking up with??

If it is the latter, then my suggestion is to dump him. He is bad news and clearly not marriage material. Dating is a job interview for marriage and he has flunked the test. No woman in her right mind would waste her time on some prospect that lies and cheats. Dump him.

He is a poor role model for your children. Not to mention that is sets a poor moral example for children to be shacking up.

Maybe I was not clear in my original post the challenging communication and lack of intimacy is with the man I currently share my life with � not my EX

FYI we have been together for approximatly 6 years .. dating for three married for three...

Are you married?? I am so confused.. You started off with And now you say you are married...

MelodyLane... are you going to offer some advice or judge the quality of my post? Yes we are married � but he has never been married before has no children, I have been married and I have two children from the previous marriage�

I think I will pass.

xo13, if neither of you are cheating and you both are willing to put some effort into building a great marriage, then I highly suggest you check out some of the MB material such as His Needs/Her Needs and Love Busters to start you off. Are you spending 15 hours of quality alone time together per week? Have you eliminated love busters which deplete your husband's love for you?

Travis

Homework;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5520_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5515_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5530_qa.html


Each one of those is a SECTION with several articles included.

Read those articles, and come back with your questions, regarding and in the context of the articles.

*edit*

When possible, either reference the title of the article, or link it when asking your questions.

15 hours? Well that would explain everything. We do not spend enough time alone. Need to work on that! thank you

Melody, isn't the snooping spouse advised to alert the snooped on spouse that they were snooping if no signs of infidelity come up through snooping?

This means a little more than 2 hours EVERY DAY.

If you are at a crisis point, you need 20 hours a week. This is almost 3 hours per day.

Some of this can be done small and simple; phone calls throughout the day. The rest? Plan on going to bed an hour or two earlier than usual. Spend time talking and holding each other.

Also; start holding hands again. At any time you are in the presence of the other, HOLD HANDS.

Does this mean that I need to tell him that I snooped, even though I am not completely done snooping?? I am still feeling like there is something I missed? Keep in mind that is my feeling - I have zero evidence that there is something going on. I think I have convinced myself that since he doesn�t want to be with me he must be giving his love and affection to someone else? Could there be something else happening that I am missing?? Any advice on that?? I am feeling so grrrrr towards him and I don�t want to feel this way but no matter how I tell him that I need affection there is even less affection to follow. What am I doing wrong?

HeadHeldHigh
We are at a crisis point, but every time I bring up us doing something together I get nothing. I have gotten, what to me seem like excuses; that he is tired, kids take up too much time and they are not his biological kids, his work is too stressful and takes up too much of his energy. But then again he stays up late at nigh playing computer games� I have gone through his e-mail on that game and there is nothing flirtatious or anything like that, it appears to be honest, but he is more involved in that and is willing to spend more time doing that, which I am assuming is more enjoyable then spending time with me. I get it, but the question is how to I tell him that if we both try hard enough our time can be enjoyable without sounding like I am controlling him or wanting him to change or complaining??? His job is very stressful (financial/mortgage business owner) so talking during the day is not always the easiest, which I respect and understand. We both work and my job is not as stressful but can be very busy. We do watch TV shows together, which I guess is time spend together but we don�t normally talk during that time only on commercials, so how productive is that?!? If I was to count that time, we would be at much more then 20hr per week � double if not triple that. We don�t go out much, and if we do is normally as a family. Occasionally, twice a year I would say he goes out with his brother and I spend time with my sister. B-days special occasions, etc. I just completed the His/her needs questioner and compared to the one I did two years ago and my need for affection is not been satisfied at all� I have tried telling him but I must not be telling him the right way and every time I do talk about it � he tells me to give him time .. he needs to do it on his terms and that he understands my needs he just needs time and he wants me to be patient� Please HELP!!!

Never reveal thank you are gathering intelligence all that does is tell the WS that what he is doing is working.

And, telling them warns the WS to keep their vigilance up and not get sloppy because they will get caught then.

But, are you getting 20 hours a week of UNDIVIDED ATTENTION. That time watching TV and talking during commercials doesn't count. That may be RC, but it is not UA time.

Contact during the work day - texts, e-mails, or phone calls during breaks and lunches. You can be the one to initiate this, and to guide the conversation. It becomes easier and more natural as it is developed into a habit.

Xo, don't underestimate your own power to guide your M into the M you always wanted. Your own demonstration and care and love can be the solution to your problem;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009_qa.html

Point taken on the TV, I get it and completely agree, but how do tell him that??? How do I tell him that our time together is the key here???, well at least I think it is, please correct me if I am wrong?? What exactly do I say to get his attention and to make him think about it and to make him try and change the circumstances?? Is there a magic statement I can make?? Do I say nothing and continue to hope that one day I will wake up and everything will be great? Do I continue this �try and error� approach and see??, but how long can one last and actually succeed at this before they start resenting the other person� or before they just simply give up??

I have attempted to call or e-mail him during the day or even leave him a little note in his lunch telling him I care and love him� when I do call or e-mail him I normally get a very rude response from him� which leaves me feeling rejected and when I feel like that I don�t want to try again and again and have my feelings hurt all over again. I have told him that is upsets me how he responds so his answer is not to call or contact him while at work because he is too busy� I tell/ask him this is our life together our relationship, how can you be too busy?? In return I get this: �you just don�t understand anything �. I wish you could be in my shoes at least for one day you would understand � you just don�t get it �. You live in a fantasy world �. Etc� these comments keep on coming and I watch my self esteem disappear and not want to stand up to him, because really me contacting him at work is it really that important?? I can get by without it, so I keep lying to myself because I do know that our relationship cannot get by without interaction� This same concept can be applied to many of our interactions � which leaves me not wanting to try, but at the same time I don�t want to live my life feeling rejected and frustrated� which is where I stand today!!

Has he always been like that about his "work time?" Or is this a new development? What is his work environment like? Any opposite sex coworkers?

On his sleeping on the couch, and late night gaming; how do you react to him staying up late?

I did the sleeping on the couch thing because if I stayed up late playing games or whatever, I would get wrath from FWW when I went to bed. Conflict avoidance.

No he has not been like that about work in the beginning when we met/dated/beginning of our marriage. This has changed drastically when he became owner of the company, last two years I would say. I could understand the change in responsibilities and the added stress of being an owner, but not taking a couple of minutes a day to talk to your spouse?? I don�t know if I buy that!?!? Yes there are opposite sex coworkers, checked up on most of them. Check the interaction on his facebook account (have access to his account � he does not know) with the ones that I would see him be flirtatious with. Found nothing!! One thing that I have not been able to access is his work e-mail, which is next on my list. I do realize that most of our EA or PA would start at work and if there was something, they would exchange it via work e-mail. He does talk about this one gal that he exchanges information with from time to time, not really sure how I feel about that, but for now it is what it is� until I can prove it otherwise.

I hate when he stays up late playing games, I can understand and possibly could accept an occasional night, but every night� too much in my opinion� and some of that time could be used to work on our relationship (I know he is not seeing it like that right now)� I have confronted him several times about it in a nice and not so nice way, neither one produced desired results, and if there were results, they didn�t stick. I don�t mind him coming to bad late, but come to bed� I don�t know I have a thing about it I guess�

Boy do I understand your frustration.


I wonder why he feels he needs time? Does that mean he acknowledges there is a problem? Wonder what his terms are?

Hey I'm new here so I don't really know what to say. But based on the materials I've read, perhaps husband's love bank is also empty. If I change my habits to make deposits while not making any withdrawals, then over time I might get his attention. This will require a lot of patience. Keeping resentment at bay during the process is not easy. But I keep reading posts and try to focus on people who are successful and back in love and that would make all the effort worth it.

If your H watches at lot of TV, perhaps you can use that time to cuddle, hold hands, or give affection in some way. Let him know you like to be with him. It may take a long time before he responds.

Keep us posted.

4Hope
Thank you! I think it helps to know that there are other people in the same situation as me. I think it helps to write about it not feel like you are being judged. I hate discussing these things with girlfriends because they automatically think that I should leave and that our marriage is no good and can be so judgmental and offer poor quality advise� grrrr....

I am also very new to this, but I need to write about this.. I need to share this with someone because I am ready to burst� this morning while driving to work I was ready to cry� He slept on the couch again, not really sure if he was up playing the game again or just decided to sleep on the couch .. need to check the computer log when I get home.. so I was upset .. he avoided me this morning and timed things just right so he would not be in the kitchen at the same time as me so we would not have to talk about it again and by tonight million other things will happen and I will forget and get over it �right? (I leave the house about 7am and he stays home to watch the kids and take them to school at 8am) � so on the way to work I was ready to cry � tears started to fill up my eyes and I kept telling myself do not cry � do not cry � there is a way to fix this

Not sure what he needs time for?!?!? He does not deny that there is an issue, we have gone to counseling over this, but as soon as things were starting to get better, we stopped� now he does not want to go back because he knows what the issues are and does not need to pay someone to tell him � I should ask him about the terms... you bring up at good point!!

As for the deposits into the love bank � not always so easy � I am sure that I have done things to push him away � but the key is to understand what these things are so I don�t do it again and one way to solve this is by having that very uncomfortable conversation about it instead of sweeping it under the rug and waiting or asking for more time � time heals, but you also need to talk about things � I think!

Go ahead and cry. I do. Maybe someday we won't have to. You are not alone (((hug))).


Just remember those "uncomfortable conversations" make withdrawals. You are absolutely right, you need to talk about it. Just make sure the bank balance can handle it.

The work thing is a hard one for men. Try letting him know you appreciate how much he does for you and the family. I admire how hard you are working. Thanks for supporting us. And no "buts". Just give the compliment and leave it at that.

Maybe some night when he is playing computer games -- sit near him and tell him those things. Ask: "How are things at work? Hard? Stressful? Any changes? Can I help?"

And then: "Would you like to hear about my day? " Then share something nice. Ask for advice on a problem and let him fix it. And say thanks.

If you have a nice conversation.. try the next day to say: "That was nice. But honey, I really miss you. I really need you in my life. You are neglecting our marriage plain and simple. We must spend time together. PLEASE send me one text or give me one email or call during the day. something nice. Pretend you are courting me (which he is.... if you want SF you need to be courting all the time... all week. And it should be FUN. It should be a joy to be thoughtful and do nice things for your special lady.)

I almost swear that Melody has stated that if no evidence is found...etc

I apologize if I'm wrong. But at some point--months, years, etc. She should tell him that she has questioned his fidelity and has been checking his email, etc.

I second the complimenting on his financial support of the family. I would be honest with him about the gaming. Something along the lines of understanding that he enjoys the games and you want him to play them but that you would most of hte evenings reserved for the two of you. Tell him you miss his company and would like some attention from him.

Thank you for your comments. So today I immediately went to work on this spending time together thing. At 10pm I turned the TV off even though the new were on and asked the question �Are you happy with how we have been treating each other� I know a risky question if the love bank is empty, which based on today�s discussion I think it is.. in addition a risky question since he had couple of beers, but I was doing this � I am not waiting anymore � I am tired of feeling this way and I know he is too � based on today�s discussion� ok back to the story. I did let him talk for almost 20 minutes � he was getting angry and really just wanted to engage in an argument. I kept my cool I have no idea how I did this, but I did it even when he was saying these hurtful things about me� like I could never do his job because it is so so hard and so on � to me that is hurtful because I like to think I am somewhat intelligent and if present me with a challenge I will try my best to solve it � I just kept reminding myself he is just angry and do not engage just listen and let him talk even though my blood pressure was raising� it felt good not to engage� after he was done I told him that I love him and cared about him I took my time saying that because I really wanted him to hear it � and asked him if he thinks that way we treat each other helps our relationship? Once again he started getting angry this time he didn�t even answer the question. Said that I didn�t care about him! Said that I sat him back! Lied to me about couple of things that I know for a fact are not even remotely close from my investigation�.and tried to blame me for it�. It is good to know these things because if I didn�t I would have engaged into the argument � after about 10 minutes he paused �. I think he realized something � but really not sure � then said he didn�t know what the question was ??? So I asked again �.Then he said what the F**** are you some kind of psychiatrist?? I said no and repeated the question� he finally answered NO� I then asked him if this can be changed and if yes how?? He didn�t know � I told him that I had couple if ideas� and one of them would be spending more time alone� which opened another can of worms where he once again said some very angry things � I stopped him at one time and said that he was going too far with his comments and that I would appreciate for him to stop � to my surprise he did� A little more back and forth and then finally he said it.. which I think is the reason we are having issues �. That I care only about the kids and not him!!! The way he said it � wow I felt that inside of me and really could see how he would feel that way� he kept going on about that for a little while longer and then stepped outside and I jumped from the couch with joy � and said I get it !!! I understand how you feel!! OK this is really long after he came back in I told him thank you and went and give him and hug he give me one back and almost fall asleep on his chest but the dog did wake us up� he went outside to check on things and when he came back I told him thank you for talking to me tonight and said that I love him and that I was going to sleep�. He give me a really good hug � one that you feel your insides � wow that is what I miss about our relationship the most his hugs that have so much passion �. ?!?! Thank you everyone for the tips!! I think I just really need to take time�. So we agreed that we need to spend more time alone, we just need to make arrangements on how and what?!?!? That is my assignment for tomorrow�

These are some very good tips I can tell you I am not very good at saying these thigns so I could understand why his love bank is running on empty

ok so I tried the quote thing it did not turn out the way I planned it sorry...

xo13,

The willingness to TRY sometimes makes all the difference if your H sees it. From my own personal experiences, a significant portion of the reason my STBXW and I are divorcing is her unwillingness to try to meet my needs in the way I need her to meet them. A good example is conversation. There are others but this one is most germane. Somewhat recently, I asked her if she wouldn't mind asking how my day went. I always (even now) ask her how her day went and probably spend a good 30 minutes listening to her on this subject every single day which I know scores major bank points. On the flip side, she hasn't asked me how my day went once that either of us can recall in years. She says it doesn't occur to her to do so much like to doesn't occur to her to say thank you when I do something. After our conversation about this a few weeks ago, she still hasn't once asked me how my day went (I've reminded her about the conversation twice).

It hurts me that she's so uninterested in mine and the children's lives that she can't muster up enough thoughtfulness to inquire how our day was. Despite this, she feels that if it doesn't occur to her to do something naturally, she shouldn't have to go out of her way to do it.

This is a fundamental difference in our view on our marriage that we're never going to get past me thinks. So anyway, this was my roundabout way of saying that it's important to meet your husband's needs (and he yours) in the way that he likes but in many ways, the attempt alone is important even if you don't get it right initially because it shows you cared enough to try.

By the way, excellent job not getting drawn into the anger and craziness in that discussion. Perhaps some of the other posters can give you some tips on redirecting so he doesn't AO so frequently which is a killer to any discussion. But still, great job!

Travis

Thank you kind words� and sorry about your situation� If there are ways to redirect the angry comments please let me know how I would love to know�

OK so I felt good about the discussion yesterday I really did� He still slept on the couch and played his game but this morning I checked his messages and he sent an e-mail out after our discussion that said something like that � �sorry to leave you all hanging.. wife had a meltdown again� don�t ever marry a polish woman (I am polish) .. nothing against polish people but the woman can be very dramatic� ok so what does that mean?!?!? Should I be bothered by it � well I am because he is apologetic to the people online who play the game and makes that a priority� ????

Something that has worked for us is holding hands during tough discussions. Sometimes it is difficult to achieve, especially if he is already mad, but it has never failed to calm things down. Ask for his participation in this when things are not tense. Try something like, in a quiet moment (washing dishes together, etc), "Hey, I was thinking, sometimes our tougher discussions get a little crazy and I thought maybe we could calm them down if we held hands while we're talking. Is that something you'd be willing to try?"

If he agrees to it, then next time things get hot, go sit by him and offer your hand, MOUTH SHUT and smile on your face. Once you're 'in position', continue the discussion.

CWMI... that sounds good ... but I am not sure about it I will give it a try .. but he is such a man... not sure how he will respond kinda scard to even sugesst.... thanks

Now you're getting to the meat of the matter.

You say he says angry and hurtful things...can you be more specific? In there somewhere, he is likely expressing unmet emotional needs, but he doesn't have the tools to really express them in a safe and non-attacking manner. This was an issue for me for the longest time.

Conversely, you get to learn to listen without automatically becoming defensive. My wife had to learn this skill.

A frank question: how has your sex life been? When our sex life dried up early in our marriage, I started staying up later...I saw no reason to come to bed since nothing was going to happen anyway, regardless of how much courting I did throughout the day. I was very resentful and this crept into my interactions with my wife and kids. I got past it with a lot of work, but it required effort on my wife's part as well.

We really feel it when we don't get our 15 hours. It's hard with three small kids, but as JC told us, babysitters are cheaper than divorce attorneys...

^^^^^^ x10

Also, add in; have you ever rejected him for sex? Do you realize that when you do that, it is more than just the act that you are rejecting? You are not just "not in the mood," you are rejecting him as a whole. No, that's not how you mean it, but that's how it FEELS.

It cumulative, too. I got to the point where I felt like I was lost and rejected, even when she didn't reject me. She had no clue that I spent years crying myself to sleep, even when she "accepted" me, because the years of rejection and resentment had destroyed everything for me.

I stopped going to bed because all that was in my marital bed for me was pain and rejection. I was alone even if she was next to me.

*edit*

The people I played online games with; never rejected me, never judged me, never had angry outbursts. Just like an affair partner, they did nothing but meet important emotional needs without making LB$ withdrawals. They did not make me feel like a disappointment and a failure.

Make sense?

Have a Happy Thanksgiving xo.

I thought of something else... sounds like he could be unhappy and just sulking a lot. I did that a lot when I knew the marriage wasn't going well. I knew she wasn't happy. My attitude was: I have no idea what's wrong. This is a mystery. I bet she leaves me and I will be angry and sad and alone and have no idea why that happened. I spent time feeling sorry for myself and avoiding her.

If your H is feeling anything like this... then at least he CARES. At least its a sign he is also depressed about the marriage. But he probably can't explain it.

So he sounds upset you seem to care about the kids and not him. MB has a lot of advice. UA and RC are important. Stay patient. It will take time for him to understand how his behaviors are really bad and need some change.

HeadHeldHigh, super info! I am sure I have rejected him at some point of time or another. Our relationship has gone through a lot of ups and downs. I think that we both hurt each other. I was attending school at one point of time during our relationship, so there was no time for us at all and between that my full time job and kids, I could see how I just completely neglected everything about us. I could see how the people he plays during the game are just there � they don�t judge � they are just there! I get that� I just hope that our relationship is not too far gone that we can�t see the goodness.
We did have somewhat good Thanksgiving. He cooks, but for the first time he helped me cut things up for stuffing � he is bit obsessive compulsive if things are not done his way � so we were working together in a kitchen and we got to the mushrooms � he makes the best stuffed mushrooms � I was helping him and I was just not doing a good enough job. He got mad� I did not engage � even though I was super mad� went to sit on the couch with the kids� After he was done he came back and said he was sorry for how he was acted, I said thank you, and told him that I hope you can see that our relationship is more important than some stupid mushrooms! I really did appreciate that he acknowledge that his angry outburst was not appreciated and that he apologized.

Stretch123, Thanks! Patience � something I defiantly I would love to have more of!!

Bitbucket I see how the kids just eat up all of my time and its OK with me because I love them and I really don�t mind it� and I tend to spend most of my energy on them and not on our relationship and I could see how his needs are not being met at all right now. I want to change that, but he needs to know that this is for real, that I mean this, and he needs to allow me, which I am assuming will take time.
I could see how since his needs have been neglected for so long he became overly angry, resentful, and thinking/feeling as the only way I can get attention from my woman is when I get angry .. that is the only way she will notice me or like you said he simply doesn�t have the appropriate skills to express them� either way� what will fix that??? How can we get past that??
Sex life is non existent � but its mostly him now� there was a time it was reversed but that has changed and now he does not want to participate and tells me to wait every time I ask about it�. At this point of time I think I am so deprived for affection that I ask for sex instead of talking about the real issue hoping that sex would interest him and he would want to participate� and that was I would get at least a little affection from him� even if it is not what I really want� the reason we don�t have sex is also my reason for thinking that he is messing around somewhere on the side� please tell me that if a men is not getting any from his wife it does not automatically mean he is cheating?!?!?
15 hours a week� still working on that one�

Thank you everyone for listening .. this has been super helpful to be heard.. I think Thanksgiving went well, well I like to think so and now we are back into reality! SO today he had to go to work and I stayed home with the girls. He told me he would like to be back home by 2pm and now its 4:30pm and ho signs of him� I called him at 2pm to ask him how his day was going and about what time will he be home and if he would be interested in me getting a babysitter for tomorrow so we can go get some Christmas shopping done� we got in a argument and I ended the call by saying I am sorry that I called� so I texted him later to tell him I loved him and that I didn�t want o fight � nothing .. This is so typical of him, now he most likely will not be home until 7pm, will make up some what in my mind will sound like an excuse � so not I am feeling hurt and rejected which will make it really hard for me to be kind and loving when he gets home � so now most likely will we just not talk for another night � Please someone tell him how to fix this!!

Slow down...how exactly did you end up in an argument? Who said what?

Did you mean to write 'him' in that last sentence?

I am not even sure what happened in that argument � he said he was putting a desk together for an employee who started this week, which I thought that he already did on Monday and I said �ya right you are just playing the game�� I kinda kidding� he got pissed at me and I ended the call my saying �I am sorry I called� then the text came and nothing � he just tried calling me from his office and cell phone I didn�t pick up because I am not even sure what to say right now� no �the last statement was to read �please tell me how to fix this?� sorry and thank you

This is what happened in the argument:

You sassed him and called him a liar.

You say to him now, "I'm sorry I smarted off earlier. It is something I am trying to work on and it would be helpful to me if you would help me see it when I do it, without getting angry. It's a habit I've had for a long time, and I want to stop."

Once the situation is diffused, you can come back and discuss your need to have accurate and consistent information on his daily schedule. I know how maddening it is to have inaccurate information. You can tell him in a way that doesn't so much 'call him out' as it clearly conveys how trust-damaging it is.

Thank you for telling me the truth.... I texted him excectly what you said.... and it felt really good to tell him that! thank you!

It does NOT automatically mean he is fooling around. The two of you sound ripe for a PA. But please do not jump to conclusions.

You could ask him: "Why are we so mad at each other? How can we fix this? Can we start by going to bed together? I would like to hug and kiss good night. Maybe we can agree to have more scheduled sex? There is less pressure that way... who initiaties, who wins the power game..."

About the mushrooms and then again about the desk at work.. your fuses are really short.

ABout work, I finally came to understand from my wife that it wasn't the work... it wasn't the long hours... it wasn't the unpredictable quitting time (sometimes it gets busy late in the day and you are genuinely stuck at the office). Its the lack of communication. She just wants to know where am I going today.. what am I doing... call at 3.. at 4... at 5... Text if you're late. Explain and be specific. Maybe your H planned to be home at 2:00 but something came up. Tell him if he just called at 1:50 to explain you'd be fine. And call again with an update at 3:00. It just communication and respect. You appreciate how hard he works and provides and the stresses he undertakes for the family.

CWMI.. it worked � the text I sent him. He must have been on the way home or something because about five minutes later he walked through the door and the first thing he did, which is something we have practice but never been able to do with sincerity, give a me big hug and he really meant it! It felt good!! THANK YOU!!! We have gone to counseling and never have gotten this spot on advice before�its like they were sugar coating things not to hurt our feelings. I want to save this relationship and if I am being a idiot about something I need to told, just like you did. Thank you!

Stretch123� I think the idea of being cheating on again just really kills me. An affairs is one of the many contributing factors that killed my first marriage and I am not sure if I can go through that pain again!
I like the questions you included, I have asked similar questions nut I always ten do say �you� instead of we�. I think that changing them will help.
I have a very short tempter� and my moodiness that is something I need to work on.
As for work, what you stated is how I feel as well. I get it that there are times things come up and there is a sudden change of plans. I get it that he is the owner of the business and needs to set the right example for the people who work there or just simply needs to be there. I understand all of that, but what you said, the lack of communication just kills all of my understanding.. Definitely another issue in our relationship� thank you

I just wanted to say that I have gone to counseling for almost 6 months and being on this website/program for less than a week I have gotten more productive advice then from the 6 months of counseling. Thank you for your support and understanding!

That advice was really good because it targets what was the actual problem in the moment - your own sass. One of the great signs of interdependent (and thus healthy!) couples are that both people can acknowledge their own issues and actually work on those.

If there's no PA, there's still a ton of time and opportunity to fix this. Stop with the sass...the sarcasm...the worries...the judgments of his fidelity. Just stop. You looked, he's clean. It's time to work your behind off on filling the love bank for as long as it takes. Stop telling him what he "should" do or should have done. Stop demanding anything from him (if you ask and he says no - be OK with it...not the war, just a battle). No outbursts period. Create some calm space where he can feel safe talking to you. That's why he came home with a hug today - he didn't think he was walking in to a massacre. He knew you were working on your own stuff...which will set the example for him to eventually work on his. This stuff works - it just takes forever lol.

Jardin� Time I guess is all we have. I hate the fact that we can�t just snap our fingers and make things better. I am really trying to let go of my own personal fears, I already had one failed marriage I don�t know what I would do if I had to do this again, so I think I tend to focus on every little thing that is negative about him and immediately envision how that one thing will ruin our marriage/relationship.
By the way are you sure you are not my spouse because that is what he tells me time after time after time and I can�t seem to be able to let go and just accept things. I did tell him one time that I have convinced myself that he is cheating on me� and that I am trying really hard to reverse that, but is not as simple as one may think. He respected what I said and was very understanding.
Thank you!! I will work very hard to try to reverse my craziness. This website really has been helping in ways I have never thought it was possible.

My older daughter is 11 and recently started her menstrual cycle. Her hormones are all over the place and her moods are just as bad as mine�. When I look at her I realize what a pain in a butt I can be and really want to change and work on myself and set a better example for her. Her relationship with her step dad has always been really good, they have been buddies from the beginning and she looks up to him well at least used to. Her step dad is good and very involved but can also be less tolerant when compared to me, which yes creates opportunities for her to play us a little�. We work very hard to be on the same page, but well it doesn�t always happen.
In recent months things have gone from bad to worse between them. About a month ago she told me she wants us to move out. I told her that we need to sleep on it and think about such drastic decision and we should never make them based on one little feeling we have� When we talked the next day she was better, and then eventually things got much better but since yesterday things started to go back to the same feelings she is angry with her step dad about every little thing � I suggested to her step dad to spend more time with her and maybe that would help, and tried to explain to her that she needs to worry about her own actions before she starts criticizing others� but I don�t think that I am even close� What can I say to her and him to encourage them to see I to eye better? Or is this just a phase that we all will have to get through
Please help!

Have you ever received any CBT? It's good for learning how to shift those hard, ugly, compulsive thoughts.

A free mini online version: http://www.moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome

Jardin, I went through the resource you have provided, good stuff. I have done that a few times before and yes I defiantly worry too much which develops into some type of anxiety, I need to work on that and find ways to turn it into something more productive/positive. I think some of these worry/anxiety related thoughts are still lingering from my previous marriage and how much I was hurt by that individual. He cheated on me, he was hiding drug addition from me, he was a heavy drinker, and during the divorce there was some mental/physical abuse, which I believe was the side effect of his additions, but ultimately me and the kids paid for. Any advice on how I can eliminate/limit some of the fears that are still lingering around from my previous relationship so I don�t bring that baggage into this one?

Ohhh Goodnesss I about to fell of my chair at work in a good way!! I have been sitting here trying to come up with a plan in my head on how to fix our marriage. I don�t want to introduce husband to MB just yet, until I know for sure that there is no EA or PA and until I know for sure the he wants to work on things. So today (tonight), thanks to a post from 4hope, I was going to try to better understand his needs in a sneaky way � card game � 6 pink/6 blue � each one of us lists EN. I was just going to offer it to him � fill mine out and hope to GOD that within a week or so he would do his.

In the meantime, I have been feeling so completely rejected because I have been really trying and this morning I have left him a voice mail that I was going to the drug store at lunch today to get some contact solution and wanted to know if there is something he needed. AND NOTHING � a text � e-mail � anything would have been better than the silence�. And then an e-mail came through entitled �Thank you� I was scared to open it and was certain it was going to be something that is going to make me feel like crap but this is what it said� �I know you have been trying hard to make things better for us, especially on your end of things and I do recognize that and appreciate it a lot, I am sorry that things at work are not going the same way with me, and unfortunately you are losing a bit of me lately, I will get through this and be back on track soon believe me!!�

I needed to hear that � I cried � and read it couple of times! Thank you everyone for listening and your support!!

I don�t know what to do here� I have analyzed this whole thing over and over and over again � my conclusion is that the game is the other woman and he lies about how much time he really spends playing. I guess it comes down to jealousy, wow that sounds rather pathetic! The game is defiantly the other woman, he makes excuses he has to work late and he plays the game� he stays up late playing the game�. How should I proceed?
I have not told him much, I wanted to make some good deposits into the old LB, but I think I just took some out because I said some things because I was hurt and jealous about this stupid game and instead of just saying that I just let my emotions talk. Stupid I!! He said something about my emotions, but I am so hurt that I can�t say anything meaningful without crying. I walked away saying that I want to work on our relationship, and I am sorry about this right now. Grrr I am an idiot,�. What to do?? I have not been sleeping much �

Oh, you are quite right in some respects. He is committing actions similar to an affair to play his game. His time and attention is going to the game, he alters his behavior and lies to play it because it displeases you. In all these aspects, the game is "the other woman."

Except, it isn't another woman. It can't be reasoned with, or bargained with, or exposed. It isn't flesh and blood, it can't "replace" you.

It is a threat to your marriage because of his behavior with it.

So, then what? Well - Plan A!

Hell, surprise him some night. Go buy a sexy little outfit, pop out some time (heck, set him up - let him hit one of his late night sessions while you get prepared) stand in front of him, and say "Why don't you get off your computer, and get on this?"

Ok, ok, ok. I know, it sounds ridiculous. But, seriously. Plan A your little patootie off.

I know when I was gaming heavily, we had what we called "Rule 2." If the wife was asking for my time, it was simply "Rule 2 fellas" and I was off the game.

Plan A ... a little problem with that ... he dosn't want me right now ... so I am scared of being rejected!!

Oh dam it � I think I just made things super bad� He told me he does not want to hear a word out of me for a long time!! I need some duck tape, or simply no matter what I say is the wrong thing to say?
What do couples do for fun�. How does everyone meet the 15+ hours a week of UA??
This gaming things, is that a normal thing people do?? I feel so confused!!

Calm down?

Wachu talkin 'bout, Willis? What did you say to set him off? AO, DJ?

Hi xo13,

About your teen girl - Dr. Haim G Ginott has written 2 wonderful books, "Between a Parent and a Child" and "Between a Parent and a Teenager". At least the book about teens was available on the Internet for downloading, but I couldn't find it anymore. You can order them from Amazon. It says a thing or two about empathy and this was some really good reading, it helped me a lot during the time our daughter had her worst moodswings.

I would introduce MB to him, your H seems to be open to some of your ideas at least and he may like it here. This will give you a good chance, both of you, to fill in the Emotional Needs and Love Busters Questionnaire, and start on that information. Have you started to read Dr Harley's books - Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs? There is a good way to get them for free - call MB radio show, ask your question on the air and you will be sent one of his books. Here - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=12

Keep your head cool, it took you some long years to come to the habits you are now trying to get rid of. It doesn't happen overnight, Dr Harley has said that it takes about 3 weeks of serious practice to form a new habit.

I'm really new to MB, been here about a month now. Hubby and I have been together almost 4 years. He's a gamer and TV addict, and this caused a lot of problems with us. When I'd come home from work he wouldn't pause his game to speak to me (yes, silly, but it always felt like he put the game above me). We talked about it and he still games a lot, especially when a new game comes out, but instead of getting upset he's going off to his cave I'll bring a new book, blanket, and curl up with him and read while he plays.

We both came into this with time consuming habits - I read *alot*, I have horses, he skateboards, and he games. It used to bother me that he'd game so much, but I now look at it as a good chance to get some reading done while he's quiet.

And, from someone else struggling with the sass comments, it's not easy to change. I know it drives John crazy and is one of his LBs, but it's something I've done all my life and gotten me in trouble many times. Good luck!

Thank you for the info.

I can say if he is open to change and is one that readily adapts changes in his life that MB introduction is in order. The few short weeks I had my wife involved it changes allot. Then the ball got dropped.

I think I am waiting right now, well not waiting, but doing some work on the side to eliminate some of the LB and putting some units into the good old LB...
He loves me very much and has been there for me in so many different ways. I have been a jerk to him for a long time, I need to start being nice, loving, and kind �. I need to be the woman he fell in love with. I am so glad I came here to this website� I needed to hear some things and I am so thankful that people were not afraid to say them to me and that I acually listend. Thank you

Update,
Its been about a week and a half since my original post and I have learned so much� hurray! I want to say thank you to everyone who offered advice and helped me see my own faults� Thank you! Things at home are much better, well at least they seem much better. I am working on my sarcasm and moodiness and that has changed the dynamic in the entire household, in a very positive way. My hubby has been much nicer to me and the kids and yesterday and today for the first time, wow maybe ever, he inquired about how our day was during dinner conversation. In addition, he actually has been more affectionate towards me and we have started calling each other at work every day�.
I can tell he has still tremendous amount of reservation; however, we are talking to each other. The other evening, we actually didn�t turn the TV on until we were done discussing something, this has not happened in a very long time. HURRY!!
Like I said I had to change a lot and the biggest thing was to tell him things about his behavior immediately when he was doing it and not holding onto it.. I tend to hold onto things and when I finally release � stay out of my way � He is the same way. One day this week he actually acknowledged that he needs to work on his AO, and just the fact that he acknowledged made me feel super good.
We have a long way to go, but we are on the way� this is working in ways I have never thought possible. We are scheduled to Christmas shop tomorrow� no kids.. and we are scheduled to go on a date next Saturday � so we are starting to schedule UA time, which is the next step� once we are both comfortable my plan is to introduce him to MB and get him to complete ENQ and share mine with him� I hope that is a good plan � Thank you everyone for all your supper and love..

So happy that you see some progress already!

4hope thanks... these are small steps and the progress is visible, but there are moments where I just want to screem, why can�t this just be perfect and the way I invision it� and then I am reminded that we are all different and I need to accept the less desirable qualities of my spouse. Thank you!

OK so I have been really working hard and trying to be positive, excited, and loving. Trying to deposit these Love Units into the bank�As I am working my butt off I am also realizing that my hubby tends to be very negative and comes across as I always bother him, which hurts my feelings (I feel rejected).

So this �why are you bothering me� or �leave me alone� attitude� need some advise on this one?? Is that normal?? Is there something I can say to make him think about it � or realize it � without making him feel like I am complaining about his attitude/behavior??


Thanks!

You're not trying to bother him and you won't leave him alone because you are his wife and you love him.

Have you introduced MB to him yet? Will you do that now? In this order:

1. Basic concepts (both read them, discuss living by them)

2. LBQ (I'll tell you how SH had us share them when you're ready)

3. ENQ

If you wait until you're 'perfect' to do this, you'll be dead.

I am scared... what if he says no or tells me that I am crazy and want too much??

If he says no, tell him that you're disappointed because you think it is a solid plan that describes precisely the kind of marriage that you wish to have, but you respect his decision and if he changes his mind or gets curious, you have the information handy and won't take his interest in looking at it as a commitment to follow it. (ya know, if all that is true...amend accordingly)

If he says you are crazy and want too much, say, "I am not crazy, although I have acted out in crazy ways in the past and what I want is to change that dynamic between us. I love you."

OK ... I am afraid of being rejected ... but I know I need to do this ... Thank you! Tonight! Will keep you posted!

Meanwhile, think about what is in it for him. The benefits to him make good talking points. Want to try that here, pre-discussion?

What's in it for him?

The thing is that I am not sure what benefits he would even have to keep this marriage. He is very independent, in every way, and he wants to and likes to be very independent. He told me many times that his mom smothered him when he was a child and he hated it and every time I ask a question or make a comment I think these feelings of whatever happened when he was a child come back and he gets very annoyed with me and pushes me away.
So what are his benefits?? Good question! I am not sure if I know. That I make his lunch in the morning and buy his work shirts and that he can vent about his work stuff??? If brought any of these things up, he would just tell me that he doesn�t need me at all and he can do it alone�??

Am I in trouble??? I know what my benefits are, but do I know him well enough to make assumptions about his.

Why did he get married? Do you know that?

I don�t know �
I think it may have been companionship and the possibility of me having his child one day�

A little frustrated tonight. I have been really working hard to make changes, and today I just really had a bad day so I am having a hard time being positive and loving. My H is not in a great mood either and I could really use a hug and for someone to tell me that everything is going to be OK. Have not told H about MB yet. I am stil waiting for him to answer the question why he married (not me) but why did he want to be married... Anyway, I was thinking about telling him how I feel but its really getting late so I sould just let it be! Thanks for listening. Good night!

I know you are waiting for the right mood to discuss this. Why not ask him to describe the kind of marriage he would like? And now you know how he can get it.

Chicken. Bwack-bwack-bwack...lol.

This can be a nice conversation, really! "When you were a kid, what did you think marriage would be like? How about after you got your first girlfriend?"

"How did you see our life together playing out? Did you see a purpose for adding me to your life?"

These are better if you tell yours first, since you're the girl. "When I was a kid, I thought marriage was xyz because I saw *this couple* or *that* doing *whatever*, but after I dated so-and-so, who I thought I loved, I wondered if there was something I was missing that made *this couple* make it look so easy..."

If you're in a long habit of non-self-disclosure, this is tougher to smooth into. You could start belligerent if you want, lol. Say, "Ya know what? I'm not going to hold back anymore. I've been stuffing my feelings for a long time, and NO MORE! I absolutely HATE these drapes. How do you feel about putting up blinds?" Then slowly, over a few days, open up about other non-threatening topics before you drop MARRIAGE.

I know I can be a bit of a chicken when my feelings are on the line � hahah
Anyway, I did ask him about the marriage, just waiting for his response, which leave me waiting and testing my patience� In the meantime I did pull out some old files from when we were getting ready to marry and the ENQ that we completed right after we married, we did try this program in the beginning, just for fun, but I don�t think that we really give it a fair shot. In these documents I did find some interesting things about his idea of a marriage and at that time he said that marriage is being passionate about something. In addition, he said that the reason he wants to marry is because our relationship had a potential of growing into long term partnership, friendship, and love.

Just thinking biblical, I'd focus on the partnership aspect. Women created as helpers and all. He saw you as someone who could help him achieve his goals. Do you know what his goals are, are you helping? I may be getting way more biblical than you or he like...however, I don't think it is wrong for anyone to 1)have good honest goals and 2)have a helper.

Helping has been a big struggle in my M, mainly cause I didn't think he was having good goals. His head is turning slowly, but wow, it's a struggle, and it takes a team...not just me, sadly. So if you're like me and don't think your H has good goals (for him...and I go biblical...good Christian (following the teachings), good husband, good father, THEN everything else...ymmv) get ready for the long road of helper. Men who believe but think they don't need to be taught are difficult.

OK so its been a while still did not tell him about MB but in the meantime I found out that he has been using this call service for sex? OMG I am so ashamed! What do I do now? How do I tell him??

He should be ashamed.

1) snoop, data gather, expose.

2) get down to the SAA boards!

I am done snooping I want to start recovering and feeling better. Thank you!!
How do I get moved to SAA??

Click on the notify button and request that the mods move your thread.

Sorry it's turned out this way for you, XO.

What is the evidence you have?

xo13, that cannot happen unless he quits using the call service for sex and this all comes out. The first step is to confront him and demand that he stop committing adultery and commits to a program of recovery.

MoodyLaine, I did confront him� He said that he has sent the e-mails I have found but never used the service, which I am not certain I believe and I told him that. He said that nothing happened, but the e-mails said �I am a generous professional if provided with excellent professional service�.� And give out his contact information� I did find one e-mail that if he wanted to he could contact this individual, contact information and time was provided as well.
Once confronted, I did ask him how he wanted to handle. He said he was curious, which I am not sure what that really meant. He also said if I wanted to separate he could find a place and would move out. I said I didn�t want to separate, but I do want to fix our relationship, but will need his participation. I said that I wanted him to cancel all of these accounts and ensure that there is more transparency in our relationship. He deleted all of them before we even had a chance to get into a serious discussion about it and agreed to the terms. He was embarrassed, because I did make him sit with me as we verified that the accounts were cancelled.
He did apologize, but I told him that apology is not was I was really looking for. I also told him that I am sure that there are actions I have taken or lack of actions� that led him to feel the need to engage in such behavior, so I take responsibility for that, but that does not give him a right to do what he did. He basically repeated what I said and said that he has been very frustrated with us, and yes he has said these things, but there was not action that followed� he said that he would have left me if he did that had actual �sex� with someone else. I don�t believe him right now.
My defenses I totally up right now and every call he makes or takes, or every time he gets on that computer I wonder?!?!? I feel scared that I can�t trust him again, I think that is the strongest feeling right now.

Is he still doing the computer games? To me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'd wonder if you embarrassed him, patronized him, made him feel like a child or that you insinuated that his computer gaming was immature? Do you think he is ashamed of it? That it's only for kids or 40-year old single men living in their mother's basements?

Just a thought, and I wonder what your perspective is and if you've subconsciously made him feel less "manly" for his computer pursuits.

I imagine that, in light of the escort service discovery, being nice is extremely difficult, but have you (in the past) taken an interest in what interests him? Where am I going with this...try to take an interest in the computer game stuff even if it's completely foreign to you. It would be to me, but it'd be worth a shot. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

It'd surely count for UA time, and you never know what you'll learn of each other. I bet it would go a long way if you can do it in a non-patronizing and as genuinely as possible. Hard to do, I know.

Here's hoping that next Christmas will be a better one. Take care.

xo13, you did a great job in confronting him and asking for transparency. And you cannot trust him. It was too much trust that led to this in the first place. Instead of trust, set this up in a way that he CAN'T do it again. I would strongly suggest you put a keylogger on his computer [go get eblaster at spectorpro.com] and, if you can, download flexispy to his phone. Don't tell him about any of this, just keep a close eye on him.

All of those spy methods will help you trust him because you should not trust what he SAYS, only what you can independently verify.

I want to applaud you for your very adept handling of this situation. You have the RIGHT idea about protecting yourself. And PLEASE go get STD testing. If he has slept with anyone, you could have been exposed and not know it.

Thank you! I do have a key logger, not a very good one but it does the trick and on our phone we can activate a tracking device, which I do have to be very careful with because he could easily find out and turn it off without me even knowing. My plan is to not let my defenses down for a second, I can�t right now and I think he knows which not a good thing for me because he will be very careful, but we will see.
I just had a pap test, I wonder if they test for STD, need to call the doctor and find out.
Thank you again!

I don't think they do. I told my OB/GYN what was going on, and he ran extra tests. There are different tests for different STDs.

thanks... I will need to call them on Monday.

I think that your basic problem is that you do not really know how to talk with (notice I did not say TO) people, xo13, unless you feel that they are giving you something that benefits you. Along with that, you do not have much patience and your feelings get hurt in a melodramatically easy fashion if things do not go exactly the way you want them. If your husband does not react the way you want him to, or more precisely, as he �should� to your infrequent overtures, you feel �rejected� (a common theme in your thread) or you get angry (grrrr) when he doesn�t respond in an appropriate time frame (i.e. immediately, if not sooner). Take for example the thing about calling him at work; a simple thing, really, he has told you that he is very busy at work and cannot respond quickly, which has now turned into not at all. My wife does not call me at work, I phone home for a brief call when I get the opportunity in the morning. I would be willing to bet if you were to tell your husband that you would stop calling to check up on him he would be agreeable to calling you or texting you voluntarily when he has the time.

Your husband has been telling you for a long time what bothers him about your behavior and, even more importantly, has tried to work with you (counseling, etc), so he was engaged and willing to put effort into your marriage, but you do not seem to be willing to listen. Or if you do, you only give a half hearted effort which quickly ends when you feel �rejected� because he doesn�t react positively immediately. So how do you expect him to believe you when he sees that you are not really invested in making changes? So he�s given up, as evidenced by his wanting to play the game and sleep on the couch, as opposed to interacting with you which gets him nothing but criticism. You are upset with him because he does not give you enough affection and enough of his time, but you admit that you spend most of your time with your kids, which he complained about but you dismissed as �excuses�. You said that he has always made the effort to be a good stepfather to your kids and gave examples � but have you ever given him credit for doing so?

So now you find that he has availed himself of the services of Hertz Rent a Girl, or at least seriously contemplated doing so. And you are relieved, because it takes the focus off of you, he is now the bad guy, right? But he has been the bad guy for your whole relationship, has he not? Look back over your thread and find how many POSITIVE things you have said about your husband? Not many. And I question your answer when you were asked if you were rejecting your husband when it comes to SF, although I do wonder at this point just how hard he would try given what you�ve written here. And of course, the constant cheating accusations certainly didn�t help.

But the escort service is NOT the root cause of your problem, just a deplorable decision made by your husband; the real problem is that your husband has one foot out the door, xo13, and it won't take much more for you to push him right out. A hardworking guy, who has tried to be a stepfather to your kids, with a hypercritical wife who has a flair for melodrama � and you ask what is in it for him in your marriage? You already know the answer to that, xo13, you have to ask yourself just how enjoyable it is to live with you?




And the kicker:


I guess it remains to be seen just how much you have listened. You really need to read the portions on this site about Plan A. You mentioned that you did the EQ - would love to see what your husband wrote.

This is how you talk to strangers who want to help you � can imagine how you talk to your husband:

Quote

MelodyLane... are you going to offer some advice or judge the quality of my post?

Really appreciate your honesty and there are some very honest good points in your post. Without a doubt I have not been treating my husband in a way that he deserves to be treated. I take full responsibility for that and want to change my behavior; however, I am not sure how that justifies his cheating. I can understand the gaming, sleeping on the couch, or whatever, but cheating?? That in my opinion is going too far, unless like you said he is on the verge of being done with the marriage, if I understood correctly.
I am trying and working on fixing my attitude/behavior. Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciated it no matter how hard it is to hear it.
Interesting that you bring up his EQ. I re-read it several times and each time I was reading it I was upset with myself for not taking the time in the beginning.

It doesn't, nothing justifies cheating, and I didn't infer that it did. You can't solve problems within your marriage by going outside of it; unfortunately he has not had much success solving problems within the boundaries of your marriage - so what potential solution does that leave him? Sometime soon it will hit him that it is just entirely too hard to be married to you, that the negatives FAR outweigh any perceived positives, unless you make a major effort to change how you treat him.

I guess you have made the first step, admitting that you need to make changes within yourself, but it is the follow through that's the tricky part.

N-O-T-H-I-N-G justifies infidelity. Ever. Infidelity does not justify infidelity.

It is, however, just one of the many endpoints which occurs when someone has "checked out" of the marriage.

Ok so when I confronted my husband last week about his less then noble activities, we both agreed to full transparency in our relationship. Now a week later and holidays finally behind us I would like to discuss with him how to achieve such transparency in our relationship? Suggestions and ideas are greatly appreciated.

Transparency? All computer and phone passwords, accountability for one's whereabouts, etc.

So what are you going to do about the root cause of problems in your marriage? How are you going to accomplish a Plan A?

The big question: are having passwords to all accounts enough?? Things can be deleted/removed/changed/new accounts can be created in a matter of seconds/minutes?? I am too obsessed right now and simply need time to heal?? Will this feeling of him constantly hiding something from me ever go away??

Plan A. OK so my plan was to build some LU in the bank and then introduce him to MB. Well still waiting for the right time, but I am beginning to realize that will never happen, so I just need to do it.

I did attempt last night, possibly not the right way (I am learning), got shut down/rejected by him, so today I am feeling somewhat crappy and vindictive. In the past I would engage in some type of vindictive behavior, but I am here talking about how I feel instead of acting upon my feelings. Need a different approach.
Correct me if I am wrong, if I am to suggest things (which is what he wants me to do � told me last nigh you arrange everything and I will do it) Need some input on this one?? Do I just tell him this is what I want to do? The big question is will he do it just to do it? Or will he do

rest of my post... got cut off the first time..

Or will he do it because he believes that will make our relationship better? I guess I am a firm believer that you can�t force something on another person, because eventually they will end up resenting you. If this theory is right, then if he is doing it just to make me happy, he will not love it/enjoy it and eventually will end up resenting me for it. I am over thinking this?

I guess I have made so many mistakes, I don�t want to make mistakes anymore� so yes I am overanalyzing this one a little.

Americajin, The other day I inquired about your story, but didn�t find anything original from you, just responses to others. Why are you here? What is your story??
I hope whatever it is, it is all working out well for you!

Well, if what he is doing is meeting your EN's, and not succumbing to Selfish Demands... then resentment will most likely NOT be the case.

If you are meeting his EN's, then he will WANT to meet yours.

Is it that simple???
I think I am overanalizing!!

Of course it is that simple.

If we are simply meeting the emotional needs of someone we are in love with - not serving their selfish demands - and they are meeting ours... well, what would you call that?

I don't really have that much of a story. I lurked for several years here, and what I read seemed to make a lot of sense and simple to implement if one really wants to make the effort to respect and cooperate with one's partner. I came here when I was separated from my exwife, and then joined as a member, but I didn't (and still don't) post all that much. I usually post to threads that involve military or perhaps need a male perspective, where I feel I can make a difference or threads that kind of strike a chord within me. Yours did both. I don't post to a lot of other threads because usually others have offered great advice already and I hate to be redundant. I am married now to a great woman that I love very much, and I still come here to learn and as maintenance for my marriage.

You know, if I were you I would not only read the literature here that everyone will urge you to, but also the books by Laura Schlessinger called Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands and Proper Care and Feeding of Marriages. Many people have different opinions of her, but one thing I will say is that she really understands men.

A lot of people think that once they're married that they don't have to work at it anymore, and some go even farther and think that despite whatever treatment they dole out that their spouses are supposed to accept it and take it, and they usually find out they're wrong in the worst possible fashion.

It would probably be a good thing for your husband to come here but perhaps not now, at least not until you think the both of you could promise not to read or post onto each others threads until you could get to the level of openness in your marriage that you could handle some very frank thoughts, feelings and opinions in a gracious manner. And since you seem to have problems with just conversation, I would work more on yourself to begin with before trying to bring your husband into it. There recently was a younng couple on the boards that would have it out on the same thread and while it was somewhat entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way, it didn't do anything but exacerbate the multitude of problems that they had and left everyone wondering why they got married in the first place.

Americajin,
I see, thank you for sharing. I wish I waited and didn�t get involved with another man so soon after my first divorce. I was not ready and my kids were not ready. Since we married we have both been so so busy, build a house together, I finished school, he started new business, and kids. We have led separate lives for so long that now its time to finally reconnect and we are struggling.
I think that my husband could totally read things on here and just let them be, he is mature enough. I on the other hand have some growing to do before I could do something like that. For today we are pushing forward and I am learning how to be a good wife, something I have to do before anything else can be done.
I am glad that my post stood out because your comments were the most powerful and really made me think about my own actions, because that is all I can control. Thanks!

Update,

Things have been going well. My guard is not down by any means and the thoughts of him returning to these websites and woman are paralyzing at times.

I was scared last week because I realized that I really never loved him, as crazy as that may sound. I never wanted to do anything for him, just wanted to take whatever he was going to offer. With time I think he got tired of giving, well I can�t blame him. I have asked myself a million times in my head, how can I love him and not allow it to turn into resentment? The answer was much simpler then the process of getting it, he already loves me and keeps putting love units into the bank I just need to acknowledge that and accept it. I think with time that feeling of love will just happen, but time is needed.

Our communication has been really good. We have many disagreements and different opinions, but how we handle them is really good. I have been enjoying our conversations and I hope he is as well. Its been pleasant!!

As I am going through this process, I wish that there was a magic wand I could wave and make all of this go back to normal and make all of the negative, unpleasant, or sad feelings go away. Wishful thinking

For now, everything is great. He is a great guy and I am glad he is apart of my life!

DVD or something more!?
Today, my daughter has sleepover and the girls wanted to watch movies. When we came home from church I went downstairs where most of our DVDs are stored followed by the husband. Once downstairs he is behind me telling me �move I can�t see� and every time I move he keeps saying it. I start picking the movies and he seriously starts �loosing his mind?!� because I am picking his movies and he doesn�t want them to get ruined. I picked four movies, and wanted to look what else was there and at point of time he is getting really annoyed and starts to annoy me with his behavior. I handed him the movies I picked up and said I don�t want to even bring them upstairs if he will behave like this and he launched into this huge speech about how the movies are his before we were married (untrue statement) and he doesn�t want them to be ruined. I said I will go the red box, and walked away upset, I think because he was just really �unreasonable� and �selfish�. I am missing something here, just not sure what. He came to see me when I was in the office trying to get past it, reading some of the posts. He asked if I will be OK and I said eventually. Just went downstairs to tell him that how he behaved was very upsetting to me and handed him some pizza for dinner just to hear the same speech I did the first time?? What am I missing here?? I don�t want to be upset about this and I don�t want to fight?

Maybe he has a porn stash?

Just a thought...

That would be my guess. Time to have a look at a few of those less-played DVDs to see what's actually stored in those containers...

No.. these movies are in the open, we can all look at them at any time.. He did have one tape that he discarded when we married and moved in together... so no I don't think so... Really not sure what to think?? Maybe he is just upset about something else and it will come out tomorrow, not really sure. I am so glad I have this website, because any other time I would just dwell on a situation like this and not have anyone to talk to...and would just make matters worse... Thanks!!

OMG... I think you could be right after all there is something there he is hidding and that is why he was upset and didnt want me to look! I dont think its porn though! Will need to snoop and see what I find tomorrow... He can be very "protective" of "his things" in a hording type way... ?? maybe that is all that is.

Ever since what I would describe as an AO this past weakened I can�t get into the routine that I was in. Since the weakened he has been very distant and finally last night he �came back�, and acted like nothing has happened and in a sense there was an expectation for me to be this loving and supportive wife?! I was too upset about the whole thing and really could not give him what he needed and just ended up going to bed without a word he slept on the couch. He has been neglecting our relationship all week, and yesterday morning I went to give him a hug as I was leaving for work in the morning and he was laughing at me, I said I guess I don�t need a hug this morning and left. Last night when he got home he asked me �where is my hug?� and I said I don�t appreciate being made fun of or rejected, but I will give you a hug, so I did. Then he proceeded to tell me all about his day, and I just couldn�t listen because really I didn�t care about his day at all since my needs were not being event touched upon all week. I guess I could have been interested if he said hey sorry I have been distant all week, work has been crazy, or whatever the reason, but there was nothing, just immediately jumping back into it without any acknowledgment of his behavior. So I guess I am looking for some encouragement to keep going because all this week I am feeling like I am done with this marriage.

Seems to me like nothing's really changed for you, xo13, you're in the same pattern that brought you here in the first place.

Would you have any tips on how to brake the pattern? Thanks is advance

If you want to break the pattern, perhaps it's time to sit down with your husband and tell him exactly what you are telling us here. It's easy to skirt the big issues to keep the peace.

Sit him down and tell him you are not happy, and you need his help to make your marriage happier and stronger. He will either step up and do whatever it takes, or reject you. That should help you determine how much he values you and the relationship.

You have to understand WHY it is that you meet your spouse�s emotional needs, which is to deposit units into THEIR love bank. You do it because you want to show that you love that person. You do it even if initially it is not reciprocated or, as in your case, because his love bank has been running in the red for quite a long time.

You do NOT do it as some form of quid pro quo, where you will make the effort only because you expect to see it reciprocated and then quit when you don�t see an immediate return on your emotional investment. Your husband sees you make a quick half-assed attempt to meet some of his needs but knows you won�t see it through, and then you confirm it in his mind that you are not really interested in meeting his needs, you only care what he can do for you.

If you want, why don�t you use me and others here as a sounding board before you try to have any more marriage related conversations? You know I�ll give you a pretty direct answer to your questions and it may save you from backsliding and ruining whatever progress you may have made. In the Army we used to have a saying that it takes two �attaboys� to cancel out every �awww, sh*t!� Almost like taking one step forward and two steps back. We�ll try to help you cancel out the �aww sh*ts� (love busters) and beef up the love deposits.

Also, if you are angry at someone, don't try to talk with them, unless of course your aim is to retaliate and it's someone that you don't care for in the first place. It never goes well when you say things in anger to someone with whom you have a relationship, whether it's coworkers, friends or your family, and it often turns into something that will take a long time to forget or forgive. Wait until you can think calmly and rationally before attempting a conversation. remember the old saw "act in haste, repent in leisure".

I do see your point. Just to clarify, I have no problems doing things to deposit love units and going without my needs being met. Perhaps I didn�t state that correctly in my previous post; however, when DJ or AO occur, I would like to see them being acknowledged in some way. Its very difficult to just GIVE, and be disrespected or rejected in return. I don�t think that the MB system was designed to work like that, unless I am missing something here. Even if I am just in a learning phase of meeting his needs, there is not room for AO or DJ, and if they occurred in my opinion they should be acknowledged and not swept under the rung.

What I feel took place here is he got upset said things he didn�t mean, went into a withdrawal period, and now since some time has passed he thinks that I am over it have forgotten it and everything should be OK and back to normal. In my opinion the issue from last weakened has not been addressed at all, but if I was to bring the situation up again I would get something like this in return: �you just can�t let things go� or �I can�t do anything right for you�� or something like that.

So the big question is, how do I tell him that his DJs and AOs are not appreciated without sounding condescending, angry, without making him feel like whatever he does is not good enough�etc�?


Just as an FYI, I normally don�t say much when I am angry, I tend to withdrawal and take time to sort through my emotions.

I have been avoiding such conversations. I was told that such conversations can withdrawal love units, so I need to time it correctly and make sure that the love bank can handle it. I have been focusing on meeting his needs, which is challenging for me. His need for admiration, which I hope I can say here without offending anyone I simply don�t get� why is it so important??? How do you meet the need of �admiration� effectively??

Quote

It�s very difficult to just GIVE, and be disrespected or rejected in return. I don�t think that the MB system was designed to work like that, unless I am missing something here. Even if I am just in a learning phase of meeting his needs, there is not room for AO or DJ, and if they occurred in my opinion they should be acknowledged and not swept under the rung.

You did acknowledge that you did this to him for the course of your marriage, right? Isn�t it somewhat unrealistic to expect someone that you did not treat well for so long to suddenly forgive and forget and accept that you not only have changed but that the changes are not superficial and will last? You need to develop patience and commit yourself to the program. If you do this I think you will find that he will eventually come around when he believes that you are sincere and making a sustained effort.

I don�t know if this is an apt analogy or not, but it�s like when an alcoholic promises to stop drinking when he/she isn�t really committed to it; they can go days, weeks or even months without drinking, but their spouse knows it�s only a matter of time before they go back to drinking. How long will it take before the spouse can be sure that the change is for real?

Give it more time, show that you are committed, and reassess several months down the road. I think that you will find that if you don�t react to provocation eventually it will stop. It is going to take time and a lot of effort, and you�ll probably have to bite your tongue quite a bit for right now, but soon he will know that you really are trying and won�t be immediately defensive when you start to talk to him. Once he starts listening instead of reacting he will be more receptive to what you are doing.

This, too, is one of my big ENs and one that my wife doesn't have a real grasp on.

To me, and this may not apply to your husband, the need for admiration is respecting what I do, being proud of me, acknowledging my efforts to provide for my family, saying "I appreciate you" but understanding at the same time that I'll be humble and try to downplay it as unimportant, loving me for who I am, not trying to make me into something that I'm not.

By valuing the little things that I do for you because, while they may seem insignificant to you, they took a lot of effort and I think I did a good job. By not laughing or mocking me if I step out of my shell, try something romantic and completely fall on my a$$ in the process. By recognizing good intentions even if they don't meet your expectations. By saying "Wow, I really appreciate that you did that" and by leaving the "but" off the end of that sentence until a later time.

I don't know if that even made sense to me, but I'll post it as food for thought.

Take care.

Hi xo,

I just began reading your thread last night and was confused about something, so I thought I'd ask about it if you don't mind...


That last sentence - the one that I bolded - leads me to believe that you met your current husband and began your relationship with him while still married to your first husband - Is that correct? If so, there is a thread where Dr. Harley addresses such situations - Would you be interested in reading it?

Mrs. W

You are absolutely correct. I would love to read the information you are referring to. If its not too much trouble could you provide me with a link? Thanks in advance.

Point taken! I just wanted to elaborate a little for my own sake. I think that our current situation is a result of both of us and our unwillingness to compromise on certain issues. A result of two stubborn and pigheaded people who always need to be right, I am not kidding here. We both have admitted to such behavior.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about how miserable I feel and how unhappy I am in my marriage and that I must be insane because I keep doing the same things over and over and I am expecting different results. This realization brought me back to MB and when I started reading I was reminded that I can only change my behavior. I can�t continue to ask him to change how he behaves I can only change my behavior and pray that with time he will acknowledge that and would want to change things as well.

I was surprised and pleased to see that within days he responded, really responded. I do think that I am finally taking the necessary time to pause and think when things happen in our relationship, which I think is what you were saying about not reacting to �provoking comments�. However, that is not easy at all. Its really hard to walk away when someone is making �hurtful comments�. I keep reminding myself �give it more time�....Thank you for your comments!!

When I was reading your post it was like I was talking to my husband, especially that first paragraph. Personally, I feel as I have to comment/complement on his accomplishments/efforts all the time. You said �loving me for who I am, not trying to make me into something that I�m not�, I have heard that one a time or two!!

The romance and passion, not issues there except for the fact that when I misbehave that is the first thing he takes away from me to punish me, which drives me mad!! My husband is exceptionally passionate individual, which is what attracted me to him in the first place. However; when he is not passionate about our relationship that passion is applied elsewhere work, projects, online games, etc�. which is our current situation.

Ok, so I understand what you are saying, and was wondering if you could give me specific example of what can I say to him about his accomplishments/efforts that would make him feel like a million bucks, or a simple �I am proud of you�/�I appreciate your hard work� will do??!!

Thanks for your comments!!

I'd suggest just thinking about what he does now (or has done if that's a better example) that you appreciate.

It could be anything. Try thinking of something that he does that is done so that you don't have to do it. Taking out the trash, killing that spider in the shower, spending all day at the mechanic's so that you don't have to, worrying about money or bills so that y'all won't do without, etc.

Then just say "Hey, thanks for doing ____ all those times. I know you don't like doing it, and I'm sorry that I've never told you before, but I just wanted to tell you that I always appreciated it."

From your post, it sounds like he was good in the romance/passion area. Perhaps pull an example from that part of your history. Ideally, it would be something that would spark a positive conversation, a laugh or two would be really good...something that would account for some quality UA time.

Obviously, he may take this as phony if you've never been vocal before, but it's about changing your actions, being a better person, and trying not to anticipate the response. But make sure it is sincere whatever you bring up or he'll see right through it. Too, you might have to think about things from long ago--especially if you guys have gotten in the habit of not doing things for each other.

Hello. My wife, Mrs. W should be around later to give you that link. I'll let her know you responded....

but in the meantime could you expand on your answer a bit. Was there a lot of drama between your ex-husband, you and your new husband??? Even though it's been awhile, such "drama" can really effect your future relationship. How exactly did it go down?

Mr. Wondering

MrWondering
Yes it was very ugly. My ex had a drinking/drugging problem which led to abusive behavior, which is the main reason I needed to leave. Didn�t really know how to for the longest time or didn�t have the guts until this guy came along.

My current husband worked with my ex at the time, which is how we met and started an affair. How it started, I needed to use a faster speed internet one evening, I was uploading some info for my brother (another story), ended up going to my ex-husbands work and this guy was working late that night and the rest is history�. We started seeing each other on regular basis his place, hotels� etc..

He has never been married and has no kids. He lived in another state for number of years and when our affair started he just had moved back about a month ago. It was just that, an affair that with time turned into other things.

My ex didn�t actually find out about us until much later. Our divorce had to have been final for about a year if not longer. I am not good with dates. Which is when we actually started dating, up until then it was casual no strings attached type a thing. I think I was really using him to drown my sorrows I was in such a dark place. As I am saying that I actually think that it turned into a habit after a while and still is today. WOW� I need to think about that one a little.

When my ex found out he was furious. There were so many things that happened; I don�t think that I could repeat them all, well it would take too much time and space in the post. Two things that do stand out: 1) My current husband was forced to relocate to another work location since he just started there; 2) My ex filed a petition that he (my current husband) was a killer wanted for a murder. My husband, we were dating at the time, was interrogated for hours by detectives, it was a really stressful time. I think these two things stand out the most, but like I said there was much more.... much much more. �Drama� doesn�t begin to describe the agony and chaos that my ex has put us through since he found out about us.

Thoughts?

xo...

Yes, that is what I thought...ugh...There is MUCH I could say, and have said over the years to people that arrive here with yet another wrecked "affairage" [very predictable, do you agree?] - "What they will do with you they will do to you" and all that jazz - Unfortunately, usually the advice falls on deaf ears, and is called "mean" - Perhaps that will not be the case with you - time will tell...For right now, I will just give you the link to Dr. Harley's words about these situations - and see what you think... Dr. Harley on Affairages

I will add one last thing that I'd like for you to think about -- Right now, you've come to a venue filled with victims of adultery - You, someone who committed adultery, left her husband and married her adultery partner - Can you see where this is a HUGE nightmare for many here? A very, very hard pill to swallow...I ask that you consider them and your choice to ask for help from them...You see, I also committed adultery, by the grace of God and my husband, we recovered our marriage - and I'd give anything in this world to take back what I did...But what if we had not recovered? What if I had divorced Mr. W and married OM, and then [predictably] arrived here in triage asking the victims of the very crime I had perpetuated to help me in saving my affair? Something to think about...

Mrs. W

How devastating for your Ex-Husband to find out he was screwed over in such a mean and flagrant way by his own co-worker. It is a good thing your current H got out there. People get killed over that kind of vicious behavior. Do your daughters know that the OM did this to their family? That he is their enemy?

Mrs W.

I completely agree that in blended families there is so so much more that could go wrong. I have read the statistic regarding these situations, but don�t want to become one. I also understand that odds are against our marriage, but I am very much so committed to making it work.

As for the affair, I am not sure to what extend I agree, maybe I have blinders on right now and need to think a little more about this situation. I did read some of the information from the link you provided and I actually became very angry as I was reading. In there it suggests that I should reconcile with a drunk and a drug addict who can�t keep a job and used to show me with his fist how much he loves me.

I am a little confused about this whole thing today.

That's ridiculous. Dr Harley does not tell people to stay in marriages where there is abuse. He always advocates separation where there is abuse.

Melody,

I am sure it was a difficult time for him. I can be very sympathetic to ones internal pain; however, this whole thing with my ex is so much deeper and bigger.

My children where in dippers at the time, so no there was no discussions regarding any of this and as I stated our �affair� was just that for a long time. My ex did not know that there was an affair, perhaps I did not say that correctly. He was just mad that I was with another person period and his reaction would have been the same no matter who the individual was!! I can�t have you so no one else will type of thing!!

xo,

You do understand that the solution to abuse is not adultery, correct? There were several other options you could have chosen. Adultery is abuse - so your answer to abuse was to abuse in return?

Understand also that "he was abusive" is the battle cry of many, many wayward wives. It is not unique in the least. Most times their allegations are false, and just convenient justifications and rationalizations for their adultery. Did the judge terminate the parental rights of your BXH, or at the very least require supervised visitation with your children?

You neglected to comment regarding your choice to seek help in this venue amongst the victims of adultery - I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

One last question for now - Why are you upset at the idea of your current partner cheating on you? Why was it okay for you and he to do to your XBH, but it's not okay if he does it to you? It's a serious question - usually this is where those in affairages meltdown and cry "mean", but really it's something you need to think long and hard about.

Mrs. W

My ex did not know that there was an affair, perhaps I did not say that correctly. He was just mad that I was with another person period and his reaction would have been the same no matter who the individual was!! I can�t have you so no one else will type of thing!! [/quote]

But he did find out what you did to him and had every reason to be angry. The crime was compounded by lying to him. How do you plan on teaching your daughters right from wrong given your own situation?

Mrs. W
Well I am not making excuses for myself and you are correct that there were other options available (probably healthier options) and I have chosen one that was not appropriate, but looking back I was in such a dark/bad place, lost, confused, and hurt, not that this justifies my choice. I should have just left and got the appropriate help and recovered from the scars of the abusive marriage. Instead I didn�t and I jumped into another marriage. I know I was not ready to be married again, and my kids were not ready. Really no secret there but again, poor choice on my part and I take full responsibility for these choices, but I can�t turn back time to change them. So I can dwell on these choices or accept the reality.

The kids are supposed to visit with dad couple of hours every other week. They used to be supervised visits, but that has been lifted as he showed interest in recovery from his additions and completed required education. Currently he has not seen the kids 2 months.

I am not going to try to justify or convince anyone that my 1st marriage was abusive. Very private matter to me what really went on; I actually struggled sharing this information during my divorce as some day my kids can pull these records and see what really happened. How devastating to the kids. My heart aches as I type this, just the idea of them seeing all of that.

You neglected to comment regarding your choice to seek help in this venue amongst the victims of adultery - I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.
If I understand correctly: I originally started my post in the MB101 because I think that my current marriage just needs basic guidance. When I posted comments regarding his online activities, it was recommended that my post gets moved into the SA forum so I made the request, but maybe I should not have.

To address your last series of questions�
I never said I was upset about his online �call-in� service. If I recall I stated that I felt ashamed. I am hurt by his actions/behavior. I am hurt that he did not trust me or felt he could not talk to me about his needs, or perhaps he did and I ignored them. It also drives me mad that he lied to me. His online activities are only the symptoms of our problems. I am here to find guidance and support (since all odds are against us to begin with) to correct our behaviors and build a strong marriage, but for the past two days I feel as I have been dwelling on and re-living my past mistakes.

It was not OK for me to cheat and it is not OK for my current husband to engage in the online activities that he did.

I think reflection on your mistakes - past and present - is a very fruitful endeavor - As Dr. Phil is famous for saying, "You can't fix what you won't acknowledge"...

To be blunt, I do not think you will have success in fixing your situation on these forums - Remember, Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist with 40 YEARS of experience, has said that he hasn't figured out a way to help affairages...That speaks volumes, since the man has had countless success in saving other troubled marriages...What he has found is that one or the other in the affairage is incapable of following the POJA [Policy of Joint Agreement] - the thoughtlessness that allowed them to come together in the first place remains in their relationship, and though he has tried, it has not been possible for him to help them figure out a way to eradicate that...My conclusion being, that if a seasoned professional with massive amounts of success in saving marriages can't figure out a way to fix them, well then, how in the world can a forum full of amateurs? We are only here to support Dr. Harley's program - a program that, as of yet, has not reported success in fixing affairages...So there ya go...

My advice? Call the Harleys anyway, and see if they are able to help you - It's my understanding that they are always willing to try...If BOTH you and your partner are willing to do that, then maybe you'll be the Harleys' first affairage success story...

Good Luck,

Mrs. W

P.S. Edited to add: Link~~~> Coaching Center

But he did find out what you did to him and had every reason to be angry. The crime was compounded by lying to him. How do you plan on teaching your daughters right from wrong given your own situation? [/quote]

Melody

He was high on meth/crack cocaine and drunk, please don�t tell me he had every reason to be angry because he doesn�t even know what happened.

Yes he is the victim here, and what I did was wrong without a doubt. It was not moral. Do you want me to call him and apologize?? Or do you want me to call him and remind him of the time that I found him passed out in our daughter�s crib nearly suffocating her to death. Or the time I ended up in the emergency room with a broken foot because he wanted to express his love to me. Or the time he raped me and now ever time I look at my little girl I am reminded of that horrifying night�.. do you want me to continue?!?!?

I was ordered to attend counseling after the divorce, and really spend a lot of hours re-living these situation once before, would love to stop now, so please drop it because you are not helping me with my current situation, you are trying to make me feel guilty about something I did 10 years ago that is not longer an issue. Thank you!!

Yes. That is YOUR SIDE OF THE STREET - YOU are responsible for cleaning up YOUR side of the street. Plain and simple. Take your own inventory and work on fixing that.


All things on HIS side of the street. Worry about cleaning up your own.

YOU control YOU. YOU are responsible for YOUR mistakes. YOU are responsible for making amends for YOUR stuff.

YOUR mistakes, that YOU haven't made amends for ARE relevant to YOU and YOUR situation today. It's a "where ever you go, there you are" situation. Fix YOU. Fix YOUR thoughtlessness.

Mrs. W

Mrs. W

I think I finally get what you were trying to say. Yes, that would be correct we both must participate and follow the POJA and since we made poor choices in the past at some point of time we (or one of us) are going to repeat them. My aha moment of the day!

Thank you, I will keep on trying for now!!

xo,

I'm a Christian, but I sure don't have all the answers. My gut reaction is that adultery remains adultery for always - there is no changing that - I am reminded that Jesus said, "Go and sin no more"...In my mere mortal understanding, your "marriage" isn't a marriage in God's eyes - but I am not God, and I cannot lean only on my own understanding...I don't know what the right answer is. I know that the Bible is full of hope - I know that we must take personal responsibility for all of our choices, and do everything in our power to fix whatever wrongs we commit...I have been wayward, I know that for me, getting out of that mindset was a marathon and not a sprint - I know that my views on many things have changed since my repentance - Things that were not crystal clear to me in the past have been made so - I believe wisdom is truly a gift that God grants us when we repent and follow Him...I wish for you that same blessing...I think it comes when we wholly surrender ourselves to God - with humility - without justification and rationalization - with a genuine desire to do what He commands us to EVEN when that doesn't mean what we believe is "personal happiness" - Something that was truly a profound revelation to me was that God is much less concerned with our happiness than He is with our obedience to Him...

Food for thought...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W, it was my understanding that in very rare instances Dr. Harley has been able to help affairages become successful marriages. There is a story of one in Love Busters, chapter 15, "Restoring Love After Infidelity," about "Dean," who had an affair with his secretary after his wife had a child. He went on to marry his secretary and then when she had a child he had an affair with his new secretary and eventually married her. Eventually after a string of broken marriages and unfortunate abandoned children, Dean created a happy marriage with a woman he had had an affair with.

Dr. Harley has also mentioned a couple of successes on the radio program. He did say that while such situations are sometimes able to create a happy marriage if they will follow his concepts, there are still usually enormously painful long-term consequences, such as children who will have nothing to do with their parents, and the people involved will usually say that they wish that they had never had an affair with the person they are now married to.

Dr. Harley's comment in Love Busters is:


I definitely agree with the advice to contact Dr. Harley's coaching center, because such a situation has all the odds stacked against it and will need all the help it can get.

It's been a long while since I've read HN/HN, Markos, so I didn't remember that story. I was only going on what Dr. Harley has posted on the forums. I stand corrected regarding "no success" then - I should have said "very rarely". I agree with you regarding the Coaching Center, of course - I believe that xo's situation will require 1st hand guidance by the pros.

I still stand by my opinion that this is the wrong venue for affairages to seek help - in front of the victims of adultery - I can't help but liken it to the rapist who gets raped while in prison and then wants help from other rape victims. That is just my opinion - To me it is evidence of the continued thoughtlessness and entitlement of those in affairages to come here for help...*shrug* It's hard for me to see people here doing everything in their power to bust up affairs - it just feels wrong to me to offer advice to those folks and then turn around and offer advice to those trying to save an affair - to me, those situations are best kept separate...Guess I'm just a "hard nose"...

Mrs. W

Dr. Harley's quote sounds pretty similar to that, actually, although he said he was willing to help in a situation where the former spouse(s) no longer wanted to reconcile.

markos,

The Harleys are willing to help those situations in a PRIVATE setting - not in front of a room full of victims.

As I recall, another of their considerations for helping affairages is whether or not there have been children produced as a result of the union.

Mrs. W

I recommend you see Dr. H. You're in an affairage. You had a bad marriage, that was in many ways irreperable. You were emotionally vulnerable to an affair and found solace in the arms of another man. The reality is that that circumstances in which you started your marriage were very unhealthy. You latched onto someone that may be wrong for you and your kids in every way.

What really disturbs me is that you married someone who appears to get upset by the fact that you spend time with your kids or give them more attention than he feels you give him.

So your kids have a situation where dad is gone and is a bad father and then they get a replacement with a man who grudgingly spends time with them and gives you grief over the time you give to your kids.

I can tell you that if I was simply dating and met a woman who for one second gave me grief about the time I spent with my kids I'd dump her like a hot potato. But you didn't have that opportunity because you never dated. You jumped from one marriage and into another one.

If this doesn't work out, which I suspect it won't, I strongly suggest you be alone for a long time and stop bringing more drama into your kids lives.

Focus on them and being a good mom. Everything else will take care of itself.

And yes, you should apologize for your adultery. He might have been an SOB, but an affair is never justified.

What's ironic is that you have projected your own guilt onto your new husband, which, correct me if I'm wrong, still hasn't shown signs that he is having an affair.

I just caught that he went to a call service. That's very disturbing.

Your H had an affair with you while you were married. He sounds like someone who wishes you had no kids and he sounds immature and selfish and like he wasn't ready for marriage.

This is an affairage which had disaster written all over it. You met under bad circumstances, got caught up in a fantasy, and the reality of marriage is something you or him aren't ready for. You have never learned to be alone. You NEEDED a man in your life instead of learning to be alone and to rely on yourself.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, there is likely to be a dropoff in support for your thread. You see, on this forum, we're happy to see affairages end.

You reap what you sow.

That sounds harsh, but it's the truth. My advice to you is to focus on making yourself happy and stop trying to find happyness in someone else.

I understand everyone�s principles regarding the situation and can respect them �we must adjust to an ever changing road�. while holding on to our unchanging principles�, which speaks a lot about ones character. However; I don�t respect the fact that you reject and judge everyone around who has different principles. What does that say about your character?? Does that make you a good Christian when you reject a person in need just because they share different ideas about life??

I come to a forum looking for support and some ideas on how to reconnect with my husband, because a lot has happened and we live together but separate lives, and I get rejected because of my past choices. Instead, I get called an insecure b**** who needs a men in her life to lean on. I get called immoral, without principles/values. Its suggested that I need to leave my current husband and reconnect with an abusive junky. Its suggested that I leave to discover myself and stop brining �drama� into my life. (this one is completely crazy � because that would make me selfish � doing something just for me without considering the kids and their well being � �btw� I already did that now I just want to reconnect with hubby). Its suggested that I leave my current husband because my kids live in a bad environment and are learning immoral principles. Its suggested that I remove my kids from a place that they call home where they are comfortable and content and turn their world upside down. To top it all I get called a bad mother!! You do not have the right to make such judgments.. What kind of Christian does that make you when you make such judgments? I thought its up to God to judge?!? I came here for certain type of help, support, and ideas; I didn�t know that this was going to be a �judgment day�.

Like I said, I respect your religious believes and principles, but I don�t share them and don�t have to live by them. Furthermore, I do feel discriminated against because I don�t. In addition it�s a little sad that people choose not to help others because they share different principles.

x013, but you have a "right" to judge the people here? It is obvious you don't have anything against judgement, you just don't want to be judged for your own adultery. People do have a right and a responsibility to judge that adultery is immoral. Just because you fail in that regard doesn't mean others are obliged to do so. You weren't throwing around bible quotes when you were sneaking around behind your XH's back to conduct your affair; your use of them now seems far too convenient and more than a little hypocritical.

Christians are supposed to judge right from wrong. Our prisons are full of people who cannot judge right from wrong and that is right where they belong. They are dangerous. If you cannot judge that adultery is immoral then that is a character problem that has not served you well.

I know that some here would like to help you, but please understand that coming here to ask for help for your affairage is very galling for many on this forum. I know I would have a serious problem if my XH came here asking for help with his affair.

And as a child who was raised by a cheater, I can just tell you that it is very morally confusing to children to be exposed to affairs. I wonder how your children will feel when they find out some day this OM was instrumental in the break up of their family?

Pay someone for help.

$$$ to the Harley's will get you excellent help and advice.


When you PAY a professional, you have removed the problem involving "choice".

Like it or not, we have a choice when it comes to whom we select to help.
We do not get paid. We make a choice.

Freebie advice should not be spat upon.

I don't believe you've been told to leave your husband. No one here has advocated that you return to a man who is abusive.

Was your adultery justified? No. It never is. Regardless of the circumstances, it is never justified.

What I have said to you is very simply a harsh reality. Why are your kids in the current situation? You didn�t put them first. Was it good to remove them from an abusive father? Yes. Was it good to have an affair and jump right into a dysfunctional marriage? No.

The immature and emotional decisions you�ve made are now biting you. If it was just you, I frankly wouldn�t have ever bothered to post to your thread.

But you do have two kids who are caught in the drama you�ve brought into their lives. Why? Because you were thinking about you, not them.

What should you have done with your past husband? You were right to remove yourself and your kids from that abuse and that situation.

Should you have jumped into an affair? No. You never really got to know the real man you married and were instead caught in a rescue fantasy with a new man, who swept you away from the abusive reality you were living.

You may think these are judgments and that�s fine. By no means do I advocate that you stay with an abusive person. But it doesn�t matter how abusive he was, your adultery was not justified and the fact is that it is your children who have paid the price for the continuous drama you�ve brought into their lives.

Want to save the dysfunctional marriage? Call SH. On this end, what those of us here see is an affairage where two incompatible people got married after beginning a relationship based on lies. Hence, the judgment and thought that you reap what you sow.

So may advice would be to focus on your kids and put them first in EVERY decision you make, to include the men that you bring into their lives.

A person you date should go months before they ever even see your children so that you can figure out who they are and if they are right for you and your kids. You never gave them that chance and you never performed that vetting.

So now you�re married to an emotionally detached man, who is jealous of the time you give your kids, would rather play games than sleep with you, and looks for action on the side from calling services.

How did adultery work out for you?

No, Ma'am, it is not. This has never been suggested. The exact opposite has been said to you MORE THAN ONCE. Please don't blame other people for you reading stuff into what they are saying. You are hearing what you expect to hear instead of actually reading closely.

There are people here who will help you if you want to do a good job of listening. And there is the absolutely peerless Marriage Builders Coaching center that can help you. I encourage you to continue to seek help. Don't use the opinions of some as an excuse to not get help, and especially don't use your own misconceptions of those opinions.

People are not saying what you are hearing them say. Nobody is telling you you have to go back to an abusive husband. Nobody.

Immoral doesn�t necessarily make it illegal, if it did I should be in jail for my immoral choice.

I did own my affair and I am the one who has to live with it and will be judged for it by God not the society. I have asked God�s forgiveness, you and nobody else on this forum has to forgive me or has the right to judge me. Christians are not to judge right from wrong, who give you that right Melody??? They are to know the difference.

People in prisons, its not that they can�t judge right from wrong, they just simply don�t know the difference.

xo, you can't be helped as long as you are talking more than listening. Do you want help to straighten out your mess and make your life better, or do you want to be right and win and straighten everybody else out?

"let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (James 1:19)

You can't control what other people say to you, but you can decide that you want to follow this sound advice from the Bible. Or not.

I think you assumed that I left my husband and just married this guy�

I slept with this guy while in a process of leaving my marriage. A month later I was ALONE with kids, divorce was final six months later. I continued the affair the whole time before the divorce was final. If that makes me immoral and a bad mom, so be it.

After that I went to counseling, enrolled in school, and focused on my job and kids. Yes I would continue to sleep with the guy, but it was physical. After about a year from the divorce date he asked me to dinner and after discussing the situation with my counselor I said yes. We dated and got married and moved in together. I continued school. We build a beautiful home together. He was busy with starting his business. Today we live separate lives for various reasons and things are complicated but we do want to reconnect.

I don�t judge his choices to go to the online places, not my place. I am hurt by them, but I need to own my part in it. He never said that I spend too much time with my kids. I said that based on comments and advise from her, so for you to judge and say that he is immature, well I am so sure what that makes you. You don�t know him, you have not heard his side of the story, how can you make such assumption about a person you have never had a conversation with?

Ma'am, hearing what you need to hear is NOT going to feel GOOD. Know what I mean? If you keep reacting to what you feel instead of paying very, very close attention to what you are hearing, you are going to keep digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself to live in. Nobody else here will be affected by that. Just you.

There is help here for people who want to LISTEN. If you hear something you don't like, it's probably best if you just keep it to yourself. Take what you like and ignore the rest. You'll never fix everybody else. You can't even fix yourself, yet, right?

maros�. You are absolutely correct!!

�Speech is Silver � Silence is Gold�

xo13, if a person cannot judge right from wrong on moral issues, they obviously can't judge right from wrong on legal issues. Right and wrong is right or wrong whether it is illegal or not. Yes, we do have a right to judge that your adultery is wrong. If you judge it to be immoral, then it makes no sense to try and manipulate others into silence on the same subject. That will not work.

I don't see you owning anything. Rather I see you deflecting and trying to shut down others from pointing out your own adultery. I would point again how hypocritical it is for you to lecture others on Christianity. If others don't have a "right" to judge you, then you shouldn't be judging others here. Practice what you preach, Madam..

xo~

Ever notice that when a parent makes immoral choices that they just sort of take in stride as "oh well, it is what it is" that their children end up following in their footsteps? A common example that comes to mind for me are people who have children out of wedlock and act like it's no big deal - and then are surprised when their children do the very same thing.

Adultery works like that too - So what are you doing to help your children break that cycle? How are you working to clean up your side of the street?

You think that the posts you've received are only judgmental and not at all helpful, but I believe you are wrong - It's just that you wish to sweep your past mistakes under the rug rather than understanding that you must deal head on with your old patterns of thinking and change them - Stop looking for a bandaid and find a cure, xo...Stop the "yeah, yeah I did wrong back then, but let's drop that now - just help me with the crisis currently in front of me" - Realize that without fixing the stuff that allowed you to make the choices that landed you where you are today you will continue in the same sick cycle of drama...

Mrs. W

Thanks!!

This is good advice, xo.

Or all this may just be Karma catching up with you�.

xo, where did you go? I hope you are still out there listening.

I am here � just digesting everything that has been said last week and focusing on things at home.

Thank you!!

I have read my entire thread this morning� all I can say is wow.

Thank you everyone for posting and offering advice. Conclusion = change begins within!

Have a wonderful day everyone

Short Update,

About a month before V-day he asked me if I wanted to go to dinner. I said that I really appreciated the gesture and said sure I would love to. Week or so goes by and while at a skating party with younger daughter I ran into our sitter. Texted husband and asked if he wanted me to book her. There was no response. I didn�t ask any more questions, I assumed that he didn�t want to go. Day before V-day, I said it would be nice for us to go to dinner. He said sure! Kids were getting picked up, and I walked downstairs to tell him (he is working on a basement) that they left and we can do whatever. Comes up two hours later, and asks me �are the kids gone�? I could not believe!! I answered yes and he turned around and walked away without a word. That was the end of our conversation and we did not go to dinner! I don�t understand!! I was so hurt by this whole thing, I am still hurt!! Later that evening he asked me what was wrong?? I responded nothing, because if I was to talk about it would end in an argument, because I had nothing good to say.

On V-day he gives me a gift - a night away for both of us with a note attached �anytime we want to go!!� I very much so appreciated the gesture; however, as we are discussing it he asked �that is what you wanted, right?� I didn�t respond, because I wanted to scream and tell him � have you been listening at all for the past three months??, which would totally make things worse, so I didn�t say anything. I never said I wanted that, and really in all honesty I don�t want to go if that is something he will not enjoy and will only do it because he thinks I �wanted it�. What I want and have been asking for is for us to do something together, alone, that we both will enjoy � not some extravagant weakened away at a five start hotel, that in all honesty I could care less about if it will not help us reconnect??

Am I wrong for feeling hurt and rejected by his actions?? Am I overreacting? Are my thoughts on the weakened getaway �off the wall�? and if not, how do I tell him what I really think??

Thanks in advance!

Was there anything else in the conversation, such as when and where do you want to go? Did he ask "do you want to go to dinner tonight" or "do you want to go to dinner sometime". Next time just ask for confirmation.


Or, could he have just forgotten about it and didn't know what you were asking. Did you ask "should I book the sitter so we can go out to eat tonight?" Not trying to harp on your communication skills, but perhaps your husband needs a more direct approach...to say what you mean so that there is no room for confusion.


Beats me. Unless we're missing something, he's sounding a bit clueless here.


To me, it sounds like he's a bit insecure about giving you a gift and that he's walking on eggshells. I suspect he had good intentions here or he wouldn't have done it. Try that conversation again, but this time ask what he'd like to do so that it would be a fun excursion for both of you. Odds are, he's thinking the same thing about some over-priced hotel getaway and would rather do something that you'd both enjoy.

But this IS something that you both can enjoy. So it is not exactly what you wanted, but that doesn't mean that you can't improvise and adapt. You can have a great time if you allow yourself to.


Why? What is it inside of you that causes you to have that microwave temper? This is something that you're going to have to figure out quickly or your marriage is not going to survive. Nor will you ever have a lasting relationship with a guy because no one will take this.

Every time you lash out it's like you're walking the same path across the lawn of your husband's heart, eventually it will create a beaten path that will remain barren forever. Try as you may later to sow seeds of remorse and love, none will ever be able to germinate and take root. You're very close to this point now.