First off I am new here, so bear with me. I have read the 10 basic concepts, I am part way through His needs, her Needs and I have love busters in the mail and enroute. I have also poured over these forums and read several of the columns.
My story, I will try to keep it brief. A little over one month ago my wife and I broke out into an argument. It was like most arguments, about nothing important. But what was different this time is it ended with her saying she didn't want to be married anymore, and she "loves me, but is not in love with me". Normally I would have blown this off. But it was said with such conviction it struck to the core.
After a few days of complete shock I began getting a strange feeling. Like something was hidden. So as much as I tried to resist I couldn't. I dug around on her laptop and found the first signs of a possible affair. I tracked the OM (other man right?) down on facebook, found his wife and contacted her. Between the two of us we pieced it all together and my wife confessed to me. She had been engaging in an online affair for about 4-5 months that ended with a sexual encounter at the beginning of May.
Devestated and in complete disbelief I had no idea what to do. I love my wife and my two daughters more than I could possibly explain. I certainly do not want a divorce and ...as much as some of you may gawk at me, I forgave her. Why? Well I spent the past two years being a complete jerk. I had withdrawn emotionally from our relationship completely. I had become so self absorbed in my work and the stresses involved that it became easier everyday to just dissappear from my marriage. I wasn't having an affair, I simply wasn't supporting her needs (which I learned alot about from reading on this website the past couple weeks).So in a sense I drove her that way by emptying the love bank, and letting OM fill it.
So here is my current situation. We are in counseling. I feel the counselor is completely ineffective and a complete waste of time. I do not believe my wife will be happy to try the programs here with me. As a matter of fact I am not sure she is 100% interested in saving this marriage (although she claims she wants to "work on it"). So where do I go from here? Is there a way I can convince her that we should give MB a try? Am I sunk?
Tmvi,
Sorry you've been betrayed, but glad you found us.
1) Okay, first of all, how confident are you that the affair is dead? (I'm not.) Women don't stop feeling for their new loves when their physical access is cut off. They pine away in their minds, hoping for that magic rekindling. Her disinterest in restoring your marriage is concrete evidence that she's in that "waiting" state. In the meantime, secretly load all computers with keylogger software, and put "flexispy" on her cell. Put a VAR in her car, and a GPS reporter on her car.
2) How convinced is your WW of the fact that "I love my wife and my two daughters more than I could possibly explain. I certainly do not want a divorce...." ? If she knows that, REALLY knows that, you have very little chance of kicking out of "affair dream-land" and into real life. Start understanding that as much as you WANT to be married to her, you do not NEED to be married to her. Without that in your arsenal, she'll play you like a puppet forever.
3) Make an appointment for both of you to have a complete battery of scans for STDs. If she won't go, tell her to get the hell out. This is not negotiable.
4) Find out how evidence of adultery is treated in divorce cases in your jurisdiction.
This is a starter-kit for the fight you're about to begin. It will get uglier before it gets prettier.
Key questions for you, thomas:
(1) Does she still have any contact with him? Has she verifiably sent a no-contact lett that you've read & approved?Keep in mind that affairs are addictions. Continuing contact provides a "fix" that keeps an affair alive, prevents the necessary stage of withdrawal from occurring, and makes it impossible to fix the marriage.
(2) Has the affair been exposed to others besides the OM's wife? Broad exposure is usually a crucial step in making resumption of an affair less compelling or palatable for one or both of the affairees in an affair that has been hitherto secret.
NeverGuessed,
1) I am at least 85% sure she is done talking with with him. I do agree she is in the waiting mode. I have spoken to him and his wife alot. He does not want a divorce either, and being in North Carolina he does not want to get slapped with the Alienation of Affection lawsuit. Currently we are the only state that upholds these. So I am reasonbly sure they are done talking, but 99% sure he is still on her mind.
2) This is a tough one. I have to be honest and tell you, i am scared to death of turning the tables. If I do I am afraid instead of trying she'll just go for the divorce. And I really don't want one. I truly do love her, I always have. So maybe some insight in how to do this would be helpful. What is a VAR?
3) Good thinking. Not sure if I have the balls right now to tell her to get the hell out ! But none the less a subject i should approach.
4) I have researched this quite a bit. Again we have the alienation of affection laws here and they seem to be very broad. Sex does not have to be proven. it simply has to be shown that one spouse fell out of the marriage with someone else.
I figured it will get uglier, but try to remember, I want to save it...not end it!
Finally is there a thread that explains all of the acronyms (WW, WH, OM, and so on?) I feel a complete noob.
Gloveoil,
1) Actually he sent her an email and CC'd me that was pretty plain about wanting no further contact. As suspicious as I am I cannot say for sure that is what is taking place.
(2) The affair has been exposed to his wife, my very close friend(not his wife), and she(my wife) claims to have told one of her friends. I fear putting it on the street at this juncture would end our marriage immdiately. I gave her foriveness and I no longer mention anything about it to her. I did tell her if I find anything else, even a hint of contact we are done. Divorce and dude gets sued. I am not digging in her stuff, but part of me is dying to do so.
thomas, sorry you are here. Every BS feels "at sea" when they first find out about the WS's affair. It can and will get better.
First off, has your WW ended all contact with the OM? Even if she has, she will probably go through a period of withdrawl, and that may last several months.
If your WW has not ended contact with the OM, expose the affair, and be prepared for an angry reaction from your WW.
If you haven't read Surving an Affair, you need to do that. Perhaps your wife will read it, too. In the meantime, let her know that you are sorry that you weren't meeting her emotional needs. Do your best to meet those needs.
You can't begin recovery until your WW has ended all contact with the OM and is through the withdrawl. In the meantime, do not expect much from her in the way or remorse or constructive conversation.
This is EXTREMELY frustrating for the BS but necessary groundwork. Be prepared for this to last as long as 3 months. Be the best partner you can be. Come here to vent, because you don't want to do any love busting with your WW.
Sounds to me like you have a good chance to make it, if your WW gives up all contact forever with the OM and if she is willing to build a new and better relationship with you.
Thomas,
Quick comment that you could not be in better hands. NG, FF and GO are the best. Please listen to them! Good luck to you.
Thank you all so much, you have my wheels turning and some motivation stirring.
I should explain how I feel about Keyloggers, trackers, and so on. I understand you are telling me these things to defend myself. But when this first kicked off it was eating me alive everyday as I dug through her computer and found more. Or if I saw evidence on the phone bill. I strongly feel part of what she needs right now is to know I can trust her again. i say this because several years ago I was somewhat in the same shoes she is in now. So how do I balance her trust and my defense? I realize i can't walk around blind and dumb. but I can't spend every waking moment looking at her under a microscope either.
You guys truly are awesome. i read some of your other posts and I am honored you are willing to share with me. thank you so much, you have already lifted my spirits a bit.
i am scared to death of turning the tables...I am afraid... Not sure if I have the balls right now
I can't think of a pleasant way to say this, so I'll just say it: I think we have found the problem.
Let's consider instead of a case of infidelity, you were suffering from a case of gangrene. The doctor says, "The best way to proceed is to slice you open, remove the infection, and sew you up. There will be blood, and pain, and quite possibly a negative result that will result in your dying anyway." And your response is "I'm afraid. I don't know if I have the balls right now to attempt to fix the problem."
Dude, you're gonna die.
Seriously, where is your RAGE? Where is your EGO, your SELF-RESPECT? Your wife wrapped her lovely legs around some other guy, gets caught, and says to you, "I'm not certain I give enough of a shi+ to make the smallest effort to repair the damage I caused!", and your response is to snivel, "I really don't want to lose my wife and kids"?
Wow!
(BTW: VAR = voice-activated recorder)
Thomas,
Yeah, the folks he are insanely awesome. One quick thought? Rather than thinking of suspecting and defending, how about thinking that you are PROTECTING?
NeverGuessed,
1) I am at least 85% sure she is done talking with with him. I do agree she is in the waiting mode. I have spoken to him and his wife alot. He does not want a divorce either, and being in North Carolina he does not want to get slapped with the Alienation of Affection lawsuit. Currently we are the only state that upholds these. So I am reasonbly sure they are done talking, but 99% sure he is still on her mind.
Welcome to Marriage Builders, Thomas, you are in the right place. Many of us here have saved our marriages and have very happy marriages today using these concepts.
The biggest impediments to your recovery I see are:
1. you are not SURE she has ended all contact - you need to GET SURE if you want to save this marriage
2. you are not snooping. You should be snooping using every resource possible to ensure there is not continued contact. That is your responsibility to your marriage. It is up to you to protect yourself and your marriage from her destructive, irresponsible behavior. Slap a keylogger on her computer, flexispy on her phone and a VAR and GPS on her car. This will not only protect you, but will go along way in restoring trust in your marriage.
3. you are keeping her affair secret from family and children [and close friends]. Everyone should be told of her affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret for her, simply fuels the fantasy. The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable. Mold does not grow well in sunlight. Exposing her affair is the single greatest thing you can for your recovery.
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery.
In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."
hereAND
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
And you might be scared that this will make her mad, but that is ok. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger. We are not here to avoid making your wife angry, but to save your marriage. Don't worry about exposure ending your marriage.
4. "I gave her foriveness and I no longer mention anything about it to her." Giving her unearned forgiveness is harmful to her and your marriage. A better strategy is just compensation. Forgiveness should be earned via just compensation.
"I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.
As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal."
complete article here
Annnndddd....I type slow. HEAR NG, OK? Hear his words.
Annddd...there's ML. You have the big guns helping you, Thomas. Read on.
bill. I strongly feel part of what she needs right now is to know I can trust her again.
Feelings are not truth and possess no intelligence; this is a prime example right here. I would ignore any feelings that tell you to "trust" an untrustworthy person because those feelings are insane. That will doom your marriage.
You should tell her if she wants to be "trusted" she should earn your trust by behaving openly and honestly and transparently for a very long time. You cannot trust her and that is a simple fact.
NeverGuessed,
1) I fear putting it on the street at this juncture would end our marriage immdiately.
Look up co-dependency in the dictionary.
If your exposure ends your marriage than she wasn't worth being married to anyway.
Thomas, If you wish to save your M then listen up. Much of this is going to be counter intuitive. Intuition is the reason you are here. Your M cant be driven on intuition. We all intuitively do in our M what we feel is best. It ruins a M.
The only true way to make a M work is through a plan. Policys of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty. Eliminating Love Busters. And then meeting our spouses emotional needs. That works! Intuition kills it.
There is no way around exposure if you truly want this Affair to be killed by your hand, your WW isnt going to do it. She is in a fog and in love with this other man. Kill it yourself and allow her time to de-fogg.
Plan A this to the letter for yourself and your children. Do as you have been told and quit being scared. That "fear" is a recipe for doom. Its time to man up and take control of a WAR that you have been drug into. Do not expect repentance from your WW anytime soon. Be selfless for now but firm and loving.
Your Marital problems are very run of the mill and can be corrected and then made to be like it was when you were dating. But as long as the Affair has any chance of survival your never going to get that chance. KILL IT with EXPOSURE.
Snoop away as privacy is for the bathroom not for your partner in life. Transparency should be a given in M. Its your right.
I know how you feel, been there done that. Its a long road. Buckle down and listen and learn.
Wow.
Ok, admittedly I am being cowardly, and that does hand her power and freedom to do as she pleases. Sad really, I have 20 years in the military and I can say first hand I do not shy away from a fight. But somehow this is so much different. I need to find my courage. Does it sound crazy that I feel like I will have betrayed her if I expose? I have alot to think (and read) on.
As far as the VAR, GPS, Flexispy, Keyloggers and so on.... As tempting as all of that is, for the time being I want to avoid it. It was her mannerisms that gave away this affair. Her body language is like reading a book. If I get that tingle of strong suspicion then I will consider deeper measures. I know too many of you this seems foolish, it evens does to me a bit. But I need to stand firm on this for now.
Try to remember I spent nearly two years as a complete A-Hole to her. Not intentionally, but I was none the less. I need to fix that as well. Your advice gives me tons to think on, and I am taking it seriously, thank you.
There isn't anyting we can do for you if you choose to be an enabler. Enablers don't make it. You should listen to this radio clip between Dr Harley and another enabler:
here I wish you the best..
oh wait, I think I posted the wrong link. The correct link is
here.
I cannot get either of those to play, they link to the segment but never load up.
...Not sure if I have the balls right now to tell her to get the hell out ! ...
That was some self-respect, some steel, on her part -- something I could respect!
You're welcome to borrow the phrase if you like.
Make sure you show her a husband she can respect. If that's not there, then her love for you isn't likely to come back.
trust is only established based on trustworthy behavior. She hasn't demonstrated that by having an affair, therefore she can't be trusted.
You need to be informed about what's going on, otherwise you are sticking your head in the sand.
Heed the advice given my friend.
Welcome to Marriage Builders!
oh, and the counseling you are going to is a waste of time. Call the Harleys pronto to get a real plan.
Thomas, have faith my friend. I was (and still am) apprehensive to following the advice given in this forum. But as the days go on you will see the light and get more confidence.
The people here have your best interest at heart even if it appears harsh at times. Just remember that. You have come to the right place for support and guidance.
I exposed my WW to friends and family (about 3 weeks ago) and she is totally pi$$ed at me (filed for divorce, realtors, etc.) I just have to keep reminding myself that I do not want to share my wife with ANYONE. And I am fighting to save my marriage.
Hang in there, you will be ok if you listen to everyone here. It may or may not work out but at least you want to save your marriage and are willing to listen.
Good luck Thomas.
You are stronger than you think.
Remember you cannot forgive someone who is not sorry for what they have done. When she starts to apologise and beg you to take her back then you can talk forgiveness.
Like so many of the BH here you are failing to look at this from a female perspective.
If another man starts hanging around your woman -
and you do NOTHING except say, well, uh, uh, I don't really like that too much, honey, but uh, if it uh, makes you happy, uh, I don't want you to be mad at me, so, uh, if it makes you happy . . . uh . . .
and you just SIT THERE and let her go off with some other man -
there is NO GREATER WAY you could tell this woman that
YOU
DON'T
CARE
ABOUT
HER
If you are willing to just sit back and wait while she's out with another man, then why the *bleep* should she waste her time with you?? All you are doing is showing her that you don't care if some other man wants her and you're actually okay with that.
This is a big reason why Nuclear Exposure works so well in the case of Wayward Wives - because it shows the WW that her man is willing to stand up and FIGHT for her. I hope you will think about this.
At no time did I say I was ok with her being out with another man. I have confronted him, spoke extensivley with his wife, and of course with mine. I honestly do not believe they are still talking. He had sent her a pretty scathing email specifically stating he wants no contact.
I do understand what you are saying. I do not agree (at this time) that "nuclear exposure" would be help. If anything I feel it would be harmful. Now...should something change, such as I find I am wrong, and they are continuing contact, I will swallow what I have said and drop the Nuke.
I am in no way trying to argue here, simply stating where I am at.
I do appreciate what you have written because it does put some perspective on some of my other mannerisms that need adjusting, so thank you.
i say this because several years ago I was somewhat in the same shoes she is in now.
So all those years ago, who was your affair with? How did it end? Was it exposed(I am guessing not)? Are you worried that it will be exposed now? What work did you do on yourself, and your marriage to ensure that you wouldn't have another affair? What are you afraid your WW will find out about you if she started to snoop?
Welcome to MB, sorry you are here.
I had a weekend fling during a trip to Puerto Rico. Basically met a girl at a bar, one thing lead to another...
I did attempt to keep contact with her and this is of course how my WW found out. I did not put as much effort back into our marriage as I should have, I did not immdiately cut contact with this woman. I was absolutley horrible about the whole thing.
There was not widespread exposure...thinking back if there would have been I probably would have stopped keeping in touch immdiately. The shame, guilt and embarassment would have been overwhelming.
I have NEVER repeated this behavior again. I go out of my way to insure I am never in a situation that could lead to anything even close. It took sometime for me to realize the hurt and pain I had caused and what I stood to lose. Interesting question and you really have me thinking deeply about what would have been different with exposure.
I ask because MB is mainly about cleaning up your side of the fence. You can't control what other people do, but you most certainly CAN control what you do.
Did you ever look into yourself to try to figure out how you were able to have an affair. One thing didn't lead to another, you CHOSE to have an affair. You CHOSE to cause great emotional damage to your wife. What things are you going to change about yourself to ensure that you will NOT have an affair in the future?
How long ago was your affair? Were you completely honest about all of the details? Do you ever see OW? Have you ever seen her since the A?
If you click on the link in my siggy, for Newly BS, you will find a thread that helps guide you around this site. Read all that you can and ask any questions you may have.
thomas1006,
Sorry that you are here, but you came to the right place.
I have a few questions about your attempts to reform yourself. Do you and your wife work different schedules? How many hours a week alone do you spend with your wife? Are you still in the military and deploy frequently?
You probably know that Dr. H recommends that couples spend 15 hours a week together without interruption from friends or family members or while watching the tube. That's the minimum amount. In the case of you and your wife, you should spend more time together. Think of this as a military training exercise. If your skills in, oh I don't know, shooting or parachuting deteriorated, you would need to spend more time doing those things, right? Don't give us an excuse. Just git 'er done.
By spending time with your wife, you can start to become a great husband: one who is unusually attentive to her feelings and aspirations. The OM was providing her something you weren't. Learn to provide that for her. What was it? Was it conversation? Affection? Domestic support? Financial support? You need to figure this out. Otherwise ...
... She will act like a demon has taken her over. She will lie. She will steal. She will cheat. She will move out. She will sleep around. She will divorce you. You won't recognize her. I know, I know, this sounds harsh, partly because the mainstream media rarely discuss adultery in depth. But this has been the experience not only of me but also of the others.
As for reforming her, you need to subdue your fears and show moral courage on behalf of your family. You're a soldier, right? You can't just be a little brave. You've got to be completely brave. Yes, you need to show prudence. But trusting your wife not to bang another man is imprudent.
May God be with you.
-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again)
Her: WW, 34
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In Plan B since 11/15/10
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
Wife files for D: 02/10/11
Still hopeful
Again, as always, thank you all for the advice. Alot of what you have said has really helped me to straighten out my thinking.
Upon speaking with her last night I can honestly say I am now 99.9% sure (Can you ever really be 100%?)she is done with "him". She still has some feelings, possible withdrawl, etc.
The good news is we had a really good talk. Very honest, very open. Then today she agreed to go through the MB home study course. I think maybe, we are headed in the right direction. What say you?
Then today she agreed to go through the MB home study course. I think maybe, we are headed in the right direction. What say you?
Thomas, is there any way you can swing the "online course?" That comes with a COACH who counsels you throughout. You also get daily access to Dr Harley, licensed clinical psychologist, over on the private forum. Many of us have completely turned our marriages around with that course. If there is any way you can swing it, I would get the course that comes with the counseling. It is INVALUABLE because your coach will keep you on track.
That is the course I am looking at. Problem is pricing of course. I cannot seem to find the pricing for an accountability coach. She agreed the coach would be wise as well, needles to say I was VERY suprised she agreed.