I found your Marriage Builders site in search of help after finding out my husband was having a long term affair with a client. I found out about the affair by accident, my husband was very good about hiding it, I suspected only because of the change in affection toward me, but one day he forgot to hang up from a call to me and I overheard him talking about the other woman to his friends, bragging is more like it. I was devastated to say the least. We have been married 22 years at that point. I put him out of the house right away, only to find he moved in with her. I was shocked at how easy it was for him to move on. Later I found out the affair had lasted three years before my discovery. Everything in me fully expected him to come back home, he would swing back and forth between her and I until I finally decided I would cut off all communication with him, in my heart I believed he didn't love me anymore (or forced myself to believe that) and I also began to speak to someone else. I refused all his calls, would not see him. That's when he decided to come home. He said he was done with the other woman and wanted to work on our relationship. For the first two months I saw a significant improvement in his behavior, how he treated me, his affection and love towards me was overflowing. But recently it has all diminished and he is once again saying he will always have love for me, (not that he loves me or is in love with me) and the affection is gone, even his desire for sex has diminished.
I am tired, we have been at this struggle with his infidelity for almost two years now, our 24th wedding anniversary is in a few months at times its the only reminder that we are still married. I want to be happy and in a relationship where I am loved, especially when I have gone so long without being loved.
He has been home almost 4 months now and I am beginning to wonder if he is once again speaking or seeing this woman (he did speak to her a few weeks ago I became aware but promises that he has not since then), although his time alone is very limited and he accounts for all his time away. Or is it that he misses her so much that he is depressed, which is still hard for me to witness and causes me great anger and distress.
I don't know what to do anymore. I was wondering you have so many books I didn't know where to start which one would help me best. I hoped that I could present him with something we could do together if he agrees. Any advice you suggest will be appreciated.I love my husband our family, I really want to save our marriage but I can't handle the emotional rollercoaster anymore and wonder if it's time to call it quits.

Do you mean a male person?

Start here ~~~> READ every link

There are some important questions that we need answered before we can help you.

1. How old are you? How old is your WS(wayward spouse)?

2. Do you have any children? How old are they?

3. How long have you been married? Is this the first marriage for both of you?

4. How did your WS meet their AP?

5. How long did the A last?

6. How did you find out about the A?

7. Have you ordered the book Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley? Have you read it?

Are there any other important impediments to the marriage? Addiction? Abuse? Porn? Gambling? etc....

1. How old are you? How old is your WS(wayward spouse)? Both of us are 44

2. Do you have any children? How old are they? 2 children son 21 daughter 22 both live at home

3. How long have you been married? Is this the first marriage for both of you? married 23 years this is the first marriage for both

4. How did your WS meet their AP? she was a business contact and the mother of one of my son's friend

5. How long did the A last? 3 1/2 years

6. How did you find out about the A? I found out because he forgot to hang up the phone in a conversation with me and I overheard him bragging to his friends

7. Have you ordered the book Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley? Have you read it? Not yet is that the best place to start?

Welcome to MB, princefan. I'm sorry to hear of the events in your marriage.

Since OW is a friend of one of your children, it sounds as if she lives locally and is easy for your H to keep in touch with. You say in your post that indeed you found out that they had spoken a few weeks ago. In all likelihood, they have never stopped contacting each other.

This was a long affair and D Day resulted in your H going to live with her for a while. I'm sorry to have to tell you that, from my own experience and from reading here on the board, long and deep affairs like this do not die easily after D Day. The affair partners take the affair deeper underground, away from scrutiny, and simply carry on as before. What drives a WH to do this is the free sex, flattery and admiration - "love" - that he gets from OW. He rarely wants to make a life with OW and indeed, your H only moved in with her after you found out about the affair and kicked him out of your home. He came back to you the minute you made it clear that you were prepared to move on - not that you should have been doing that with another man while you were still married. In other words, he never chose OW over you. If forced to make a choice he would choose you over her, 100 times. However, if not forced to make a choice he will keep both of you, because being loved by, and serviced sexually by, two women is 100% better than being serviced by only one. He is like a dog with two penises and he couldn't be happier.

So the answer to your question is yes, the affair is ongoing and he is still in contact with her. He is probably still having sex with her - you just haven't figured out when or how he sees her.

You now need to spy electronically on him without letting him have a clue that this is going on. You need to make a decision based on evidence. You need to put spyware on his phone and PC, and hide a digital voice recorder in the place where you think he is making calls to this woman - in his car, velcroed where he can't find it, or in his home office.

You need to prepare to separate from him once the evidence is discovered, which should take less than a week. He needs to be put out of your home and you need to go into Plan B, where you have nothing whatsoever to do with him until he ends his affair and proves that to you. You need to be prepared for your marriage to end completely, because some men do not come back after they are told to leave. I have hope that your H will do so as he did so before, so clearly he has no wish to make a life with this woman with her loosely-elasticated knickers.

In order for you to accept him back he would have to agree and demonstrate no contact with OW, and if she is local you will have to move away from the area. Indeed, if she is local and he lives with her you will want to move away from the area anyway, because watching them build their love nest is no way for you to live. So in fact, you could start the process of moving away as soon as he leaves, by putting your house up for sale, or ending the rental lease.

I have no time to search now, but you need to read the Plan B link. You need to make sure that OW's husband knows exactly what has been going on - I take it that they are separated but you still need to tell him what went on in the last few years of his marriage, and for all you know, he might be reconciled with her. You need to make sure that your children know why their father left last time and that he is choosing to coninue his affair and so is being made to leave this time. You need to separate your finances and make sure he is aware of his responsibilities with the mortgage and other bills - see a lawyer about this.

But first: spy, and do not let him know ANYTHING about spying or about MB.

Are there any other important impediments to the marriage? Addiction? Abuse? Porn? Gambling? etc....

Prince, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that brought you here. You have received some great advice from Sugarcane. The most efficient and effective way to find out about his affair would be to hire a PI. A PI can usually get the goods in about 2 days. The next best option is to place spyware on his phone, a GPS on his car and a VAR in his car. We can help you with all this.

Here.
Private Investigators

Hi princefan86.

Sugarcane gave you excellent advise. I hope that you will go back and read it a few times to absorb it all.

Here is what MB says about how an affair should end:


Affairs are an addiction. That is why it is not surprising that you have found continued contact especially given the ease in your situation to take it underground.

I would not call it quits yet. But realize that if you cannot get your WH out of there, he will not be able to resist this OW. As long as OW is close, the greater the chance for the affair to resume. I would bet money that OW is actively pursuing your WH.

As everyone has advised get the proof first. We can help you go from there.

Yes another man. I thought,it would be the only way I would get over my husband.

The way to "get over" being robbed by a robber, is not to become a robber yourself.

Do you see that now?

Yes he was addicted to cocaine for many years. He has not used cocaine for 6 years. He does smoke marajuana and has recently begun gambling during his time with ow.

Thank you for adding this important additional information.

You said:


I think it is time to protect yourself. Let's not describe that as "calling it quits".
You not only have the right to protect yourself, you have the duty to protect yourself.

You need to see an attorney to protect yourself.
You will probably have to file for 'something' to protect yourself. Either a formal separation, or a divorce, depending on your state laws. Find out what to do from a family law attorney.

Leaving yourself open to his destructive lifestyle is not the way to demonstrate your love for him.

Does this make sense so far?

This is an illogical (untrue) statement ~~~> "Because I love you, I will allow you to ruin my life".

I do not know if you can save your marriage, but what I am absolutely 100% certain about is that you must take steps (actions not words) to protect yourself.

Yes he was addicted to cocaine for many years he no loner use that but does smoke marajuana and began gamb ling while with ow.

Sugarcane tou were absolutely right he has been in contact with her the whole time. I cant believe how much he has lied. I have asked him to leave and I plan on moving and getting on with my life. You are absolutely right I cannot watch this. All I can consider,is that the only option left is divorce.

I'm so sorry.

How did you find out? And what does "in contact with her" mean? Was he shagging her? What did you find out?

He continued calling her and looking for her. He even showed up at her house. He addmitted it today. Not saying he eants to end the affair nor is he saying he wants to be with mr. All he says is he doesnt know. He said it didnt get physical but I dont believe him. Therein I asked him to leave even though I eanted him to stay more than anythijng. I feel very heart broken right now. Thank you for your advice.

I am sorry for these challenges facing you

Thank you Jedi. Does anyone know where you go from here? What I can do next to move past the pain and cycle of allowing him back into my life time after time when things fall apart for him.

First you must recognize That only a fool would take a Prince Fan for granted.
He is awesome!

princefan, I gave you information about what to do after discovering continued contact in my first post to you. You need to follow that template. Please note that kicking him out need not mean the end of your marriage: the goal is to get him out and only accept him back if he proves to you that the affair is over.

I am concerned that you do not seem to have spied on him, electronically. It is not enough for you to accept his confession about what has been going on - bad as that is. You need to find the proof for yourself.

Yes.
You should enter in plan B.

Where is he living now?

He moved in with his best friend for a time. As far as I know this woman has no place of her own and is living with her mother so this time he cannot move in with her.

Is it crazy that no part of me wants a divorce. I guess I haven't really given up hope that this affair will end even after so much time has passed with little change. I know my husband and unfortunately he has a addictive personality. But I also know he has the ability to recover.

I can't help but feel as if I am doing something (working towards a divorce) that I truly in my heart do not want. As if I have no other choice but to give up. I asked him to leave for my own sanity and to protect myself. But I don't want this. Will this change in time?

PF, you don't have to make any decisions right now about divorce. Did you read Sugarcanes instructions about plan B? Are you preparing yourself to go into a dark Plan B? Did you read the Plan B link?

I will read the link and instructions on Plan B again. He didn't have a cell phone or computer accounts, he gave those up when he came back, his choice to do so. Part of him wanted to stop this affair. I guess he fell back to the temptation of it. The only thing I could have done to get proof was to strap a recorder to his car but even that he wouldn't use. He would walk to the store or something and usually on his days off of work when no one was around. And would use payphones to contact her.

going to read and reread plan B now.

And you say I have terrible taste in music?

LOL "Seven" rocks

LOL Jedi your absolutely right!

I agree.

Plan B is breathing room, when you are not dealing with craziness.
After 6 months in Plan B you will have much more clarity of purpose.

Thank you all, this has been giving me focus and direction and it helps to vent!

PS

You do not announce Plan B before you launch it.
You prepare quietly.
While preparing, you resist the temptation to lash out at your WH.
You need to avoid any arguments.
It's OK to say "I'm not able to make a decision about that" or "I'm going to need time to think this over" or "Thank you for sharing your opinion. I will consider all my options."

Never reveal your plans.

And for crying out loud ..... STOP talking to opposite sex persons.

You are in no shape what-so-ever to make that sort of choice.

You are vulnerable right now to predatory men who can sense a needy female.

Actually pepperband I stopped all contact with other person when my husband came home. I know it was something I did to meet my own selfish needs and I have no desire to go in that direction again.

Take good care of yourself.

I have to admit he didn't leave on good terms. He is quite upset that I kicked him out (how he said it) although while he was home things were pretty peaceful up until the time I discovered continued contact. Even after I didn't argue, and on the day I asked him to leave I did it as calmly as I could. Although he did put up a fight because he had no place to go.

He simply wanted to live with me while continuing to see her behind my back. SMH!!!

Someone call the Whaaaaaaaambulance!

I have exposed the affair to pretty much everyone. Our friends and family and her friends and family, even my WH boss is aware as he is also a very close family friend. However, in order to not cause too much problems I never exposed the affair to the OW's employers. I don't know why to me this seemed hitting below the belt and at times I wonder if its vengeful and will make me look like a desperate, vengeful woman. However I am aware that her bosses are believers and have a great influence on her. Is there any good reason to expose this to her employers? Has anyone found this has helped? This woman is not married, he lost her children to the custody of her ex and has nothing to lose.

I don't feel I'm an expert, by any means, but I, too, am a BS (married for 34 years!) who has struggled with issues / exposure of OW. She was not working during their affair, but is now. Before she moved out-of-state I wanted to call her place of employment (a gym, she's a trainer) and warn them to watch her around married men! Or tell them how she tried to break up our marriage. Or do SOMETHING to get back at her. I realized that as long as she stays away from MY husband/family I don't want to do anything to keep that relationship alive. I wanted to tell her off or get her in trouble or try to shame her...but all that will do is lower me to her level and give HER the realization/power that she hurt me/us. By ignoring her and completely cutting her from our life I think eventually she will fade into my past. That's my hope, anyway. She'll get her "just rewards" one day when she stands before God.

Prince, it is a good idea to expose to as many people as possible in the OW's life. You never know who will get through to her. That is the compassionate and Christian thing to do. It not only alerts others that she is a dangerous person but also makes it much less attractive for her to have an affair with your husband. It is no fun to have an affair when everyone is watching!

What kind of work does she do? Typically a workplace exposure would be warranted if it was a workplace affair or she had the type of position where her affair would be relevant, ie: a pastor, school teacher, policeman, etc. IF you feel this would be relevant to her position at work, I would most certainly expose at work. Most employers do not want to employ cheaters.

Another effective way to expose her would be to find her facebook page and send private messages to her friends and family. There is a template exposure letter in my signature link.

Dr Harley calls exposure the MOST EFFECTIVE WEAPON against adultery so by all means, exploit any and every opportunity to expose.

I am so hurt and confused. How could this be happening in my life. I wonder if anyone else has a glimmer of hope because as I read everyone else's stories I can't help but feel mine is the worst. And hardest of all I don't want a divorce I want my marriage restored, renewed.

March of last year I discovered my husband of 23 years was having an PA. I caught him because he accidentally dialed my phone and I overheard a conversation where he was bragging to his friends about the OW. I immediately put him out of the house I had not read any of the books yet and didn't know about plan A and B. At the time he led me to believe it was only a few months. He immediately moved in with the other woman, that should have been a sign that this affair was much more than what was led on. I later found out it had lasted 3 years prior to DD. Needless to say I am in shock and heart broken.

After 23 years he would do this, move in with someone else. He quickly found that the situation with this other woman was unstable to say the least. He bounced back and fourth between me and her 5 times. No I hadn't heard of this site yet. Each time promising that he loved me wanted to be with me and our family. Each time falling right back into the affair.

Last December he came back again, this time it was a bit different, he really seemed he wanted to stay work things out and fix our family. Everything was progressing nicely in the beginning. Then towards the middle of February I noticed him distancing himself slowly. Shutting down, what was open communication and transparency became hostility toward me for asking questions. He became less loving and I questioned if he had begun the affair again.

Last Tuesday it had become clear he had, as much as I tried to ask him to begin counseling he refused. I found out they had spent the day together. My heart was broken AGAIN. Again I asked him to leave. Now I'm back to crying everyday missing him and wishing I had not asked him to leave but tried to convince him to go to counseling.

DID I MAKE A MISTAKE IN KICKING HIM OUT? He is right back in the other woman's arms.

Should I have figured out some other way?

I only want my marriage back my family whole again?

Please pray for me!! I feel so lost!!

Welcome and sorry you are here.

If you have read as you say you have, then you know the first question is:

Have you exposed the affair to everyone that matters.

Your children, his work, his family, her family, her work, pastors, friends. Everyone.

The only task now is to put pressure on the affair in hopes that it crumbles. Exposure is really the only way to do it.

Have you done it. No use going any further unless you have or are willing to.

Yes exposure did happen somewhere in the middle of this. Unfortunately her family is very familiar with adulterous relationships, her parents were adulterer's who had 5 children out of wedlock. There is no pressure on her side to end the affair, everyone around her is good with it.

I told everyone of our friends and family and our pastors. No one spoke to him. The only people I have not told is her boss because this was not an office affair.

She is not married either, and her children live with their father.

I will let the ladies on here take it from here, but in general, Plan A for a woman should not last very long. Start familiarizing yourself with Plan A and B help will be along soon.

pf86, you can't be sure that no one spoke to him. You did the right thing in kicking him out.

Have you read the start here link at the top of the forum?
Do you have kids?

You should go into plan B. Here: How to Plan B CORRECTLY

BetrayedP Yes we have two grown children who still live at home with me. Yes I have read the start here forum. I did do the unconditional love for the time he was home as things were going good. I did snoop when I noticed a change and find proof. The only person I know who he has spoken to is his best friend who has been very understanding with him yet counseled him to end the affair and come home.

I guess I'm right on schedule. I have begun no contact at all in plan B. Thank you for the link I will read this one too.

PF, you have started, I believe, four threads all w/n a relatively short period of time. I just briefly skimmed over the last thread and you have already been advised to go to Plan B and you seemed to agree.


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2712290&page=2


Please continue with just one thread. It is not fair for posters to have to keep asking you similar questions that have already been asked/answered in other thread and waste time giving you similar advice that has already been given in the other thread.

In some of the other threads it appears you have done a pretty complete exposure and also that there are some addiction issues on the part of your WH (past cocaine, current marijuana & gambling)

Why did you ask your WH to go to counseling when you have been advised that it's time for Plan B?

I will suggest that you have been dealing with your WH's affair for so long now (3 + years) that it may have done a number on you emotionally. This is the opposite of what Dr Harley suggests. It is possible that you will need to get on AD's (anti-depressants) in order to execute and follow through on a plan. Have you looked into AD's?

Please do not plead beg or otherwise engage your WH at this time. Most of your interactions with him are probably not productive in any way and are probably just lovebusters. Again the result of too much Plan A.

Threads merged.

SusieQ I wasn't aware you could only do one threat my appologies. I asked him to go to counseling before I began plan B before he had left the home again. No I have not looked at anti depressants really because I don't like using that type of medication.

I have not spoken or contacted him in any way since he the second discovery date.

I can see where there may be some confusion in my splitting entries.

To clarify the affair had gone on 3+ years, I only found out about it last year. I only discovered this site in the last few weeks.

Being as this woman's family would not hold her accountable do to their background, would it be pointless at this time to contact her employer who is a christian and by my understanding the only person in her life that she really respects?

Also the only thing I had not done at this point is write my H a love letter per the How to do Plan B Correctly post. Should I do that or leave it alone at this point?

The purpose of exposure is to let the people that can have the most influence put stress on the affair, and you are asking if you should leave out the only person that sounds like would be able to do that.

Read the exposure parts again.

The plan B letter is an essential part. Explains how you can't continue with the pain that is being caused, lets them know that you are not closing the door but require very specific changes and spells out those changes, and then ends with a love letter to the old spouse. It then leaves it in the spouses court to act.

You really need to read the stuff and understand. This is basic, spelled out in the articles.

OK, I guess I worry about causing more damage, but I will send out a email to her employer. I know that will be the one person everyone will get upset at me about contacting.

Why are you worried about someone being upset. You are in a fight for you marriage. ???????????

He is living with another woman. What more damage can you do?

Open your eyes and look clearly at where you are. You need to understand this. The way you are going, just following directions, is not going to work if you don't recognize and believe the situation for what it is.

I can see it now.

"What in the world were you doing, why did you do that/"

"Some crazy folks told me to. I'm sorry"

"Don't do it again or it is over. Now I'm going back to sleep with OW."

"OK, I'm so sorry."


Kinda sounds wrong doesn't it.

Open up your eyes, turn on your reason, and see.

mmmherb. I have to admit I'm very confused. I want to save my marriage. It seems at times I may have no other options left but to prepare for a divorce as he is so far in the fog they have moved in together. I'm in plan B but is it to hope he will come to his senses and leave that relationship or is it to prepare myself for the end of this marriage.

I don't know what I should be working towards, which way to put my efforts.

In Plan B you have absolutely NO contact with WH. All contact goes thru an intermediary person. Plan B is for you to take care of you and to show WH what it will be like without you.

The ONLY way you move back to plan A is if the A ends, NC letter goes out, theres proof that the A is over and EPs are in place for YOU to feel safe in the M.

Remember, you CANNOT control WH, nor should you want to. The EPs are YOUR boundaries for the life that you are willing to live. He must choose to live within them. You must also live within the EPs for WH to feel safe & welcome in the M.

Yes, in Plan B you should prepare for D. That doesn't mean the D happens or that recovery cant happen after the D, it just means that you are prepared to take care of you. Once WH sees that you are not in Plan Doormat he will hopfully see HIS problems and begin to work on them.

Your efforts should be placed on things that improve YOU during Plan B. MB program should be followed and the healing should be sought. That will make YOU a better person no matter what happens (D or not).

You need to really figure out what the plans are. You do not have a clue. Not being mean of smart, just stating the facts.

Unless you know what they are, you can't be in one or the other. You can't even know which one you want to be in.

PF86, have you read Surviving An Affair? This is your most important tool and will explain everything. It can be read in just a couple of days and will give you some really clear direction.

You really want to take this bull by the horns and not depend on the people here to spoon feed everything to you. Once you get through SAA, you will be able to get advice and clarification on these forums, but you will be leading your recovery armed with all you need to succeed.

Plan B in a nutshell

Part 1
You set up someone to be an intermediary (IM). The job function is narrow and they must understand it. They are to pass along only essential information. Essential meaning a real emergency or factual information pertaining procedural things. Not just everyday things. Things that have to be passed on, with no commentary, back and forth, any no-business information. There is only one exception, narrow, explained below.

Part 2
You send a letter to WS. In this letter you explain that his past actions and current actions have made it impossible for you to continue to be in contact with him. That in order to retain what small amount of desire you have to reconcile for as long as possible, you must immediately cut off contact with him. You give him a list of specific things required for him to do for you to consider reconciling. Tell him the information for the IM.

Part 3
You do it. You don't contact him. You make it impossible for him to contact you. You heal.

How long you do this is up to you. The only time the IM is to tell you anything except business stuff is if WS agrees to the return conditions 100%. You should not know what he is doing, where he is going, nothing. You can file for D, you can wait. Eventually,
A: He will come back
B: He won't, but you will be healthy mentally and physically and eventually be able to move forward.

But see, either way, you don't control what he does. Plan B won't bring him back, it won't drive him off. He will decide.

It will get you well though.

You have admitted to being confused a few times -- and your posts demonstrate that you are floundering.

You rejected the idea of AD's, but I wanted to post what Dr Harley says about them:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Here.
How to Plan B Correctly

Another day. Today I started seeong a counseling that is helping me keep focus on me, my life, my future. I have been thinking about all these things Im sure she sees the obvious. That after so many many years of devoting my life to him I lost myself. I hightened that I have been isolating. Yes I have.
I miss him I have for a long time even when he was here I missed him. It is unbelievable that this is happrning. Even though Im living it, it seems like a bad dream.
Suggestions were made to do thongs that make me happy. Numb is the new norm although I switch from anger, saddness, disbelief. Who is the alien body snatcher. No contact continues.

Are you in Plan B?

Has there been any contact between the two of you?

Oh yes since last week. And Im doing natural AD's. Unfortunately through contact with our daughter I did here they are away on a trip. It hurt to here about it.

Have you asked your DD not to tell you anything? Tell her "please do not tell me anything regarding your Wayward Father and OW, it hurts me too much and hinders my healing."

I'm sure she will understand.

Have your adult children told their father how upset they are with him having an affair?

I will have that conversation with them. My daughter has tild him in no way wikl she ever have a relationship with the OW. She even told him she does not want him to ealk her down the,ilse when she marries. My son wont say anything to him. He says he is now out of it. Sometimes I feel I am in this fight alone and he is spared any hurt by our friends and family.

You should be very proud of your DD.

Have you thought about getting ADs from your doctor? Dr. H recommends them during this time.

Yes I meet with dr in 2 weeks. Unfortunately the seperation,has,caused tight finances. So we doing what we can when we can. My DD is a very brave young woman. My S also spoke to him and has made it clear he will never have contact with OW. I wish Fl wasnt a no fault state when the finances come an issue. He earns less than I so I have lost a second income. Although the kids are now chipping in.

Seens he suffers no loss. That makes me angry.

Well I think losing HUGE amount of respect from your children is a TREMENDOUS loss. Don't you?

Also, if my DD didn't want me to walk her down the aisle would give most fathers great pain.

Here is my most important queation. What if he wants to come back? Laat year before I found MB we h He still found a way to contact her. ad a few false recoveries. He came back only to fall back into the affair again, even qith boundaries in place no phone no FB
I know he has to be away from the sorce of his addiction, but I would want proof before I allow him in again. Would it be a bad request on my part to ask him to provr his intention? To require he not come to the home right away but to live elsr, do counceling and MB and prove he is sincerely trying to get his family back?

You should definitely require that. If you don't, you will be setting yourself up for failure.

Since he is a repeat offender your bar must be high. What were the conditions that you put in your Plan B letter?

MB coaching and program should definitely be a condition.

This might help also.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2

Have you read the articles on neglect?

pf, have you read the False recovery thread that I linked to your thread in the Divorce forum?

You really must read it all the way through and takes notes of the advice given by each person there. You have already had some false recoveries, it seems, and your H (like mine) seems to have no conscience stopping him from putting you through even more. Please read the thread.

The short answer to your question about "what if he wants to come back?" is that you must decide on your conditions for recovery now, and he must agree to meet them should he ever ask to come back.

The first thing you should be looking for is absolute contrition on his part. He must be broken and ashamed of what he has put you through and he must be begging your for you take him back. if he comes back with a grudging attitude, or one that says "you were at fault too! Don't blame me for all this!" or anything short of desperation, you do not entertain him for a minute.

If that attitude is in place, you must ask for Dr Harley's requirements for recovery. I will post these for you later. You also need to ask for things specific to your situation. I can't remember now whether OW leaves in your state; if so, a move to a new house is recommended. I'll have to re-read your thread to see why it is so easy for him to keep contacting her, and then I can add to the list. In my H's case, contact with OW (who lives in another country) was via the workplace. He had no mobile phone or laptop, and he never used our desktop PC, so there was nothing for me to monitor. The only way I could contemplate recovery after so many false ones was for him to leave his job. He was due to retire three weeks afte D Day, and with Dr Harley's guidance via the online programme, once he had retired I could monitor the home PCs and see him here at home, under my nose.

(That might not sound like a happy way to live, but with contrition and a genuine desire from him to be with me, and a love from him of his family life, and a desire on my part not to hurt us all through divorce, things have been very good and I am glad I did not divorce.)

You might ask for a post-nup agreement, and in your shoes, I would certainly insist that he does the MB online programme.

I'll be back later when I have read and can link a few things.

Thank you SC your post makes a lot of scence.I will be waiting for the posts

Have you read the False Recovery thread yet?

Here.
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience
False Recovery

Brainhurts this is great information,I.ve been reading on and off all day!!! I have made so many of the same mistakes. Gonna follow this one till the end.

pf, here is Dr Harley's programme for marital recovery after an affair. Should the affair finish and should you still be interested in recovering and rebuilding your marriage, this article describes what you need to do. The steps involve creating transparency between you, and also creating a romantic marriage. (I stole this post from one that MelodyLane made to another poster on this forum today.)

In fact, you should insist that you both enrol on the online course, and have some additional coaching sessions with either Dr Harley's son Steve or his daughter Dr Jennifer Chalmers, to get you started on the right foot.

here

I have to ask myself what am I holding on to? Im at that place asking myself should I get a divorce. I have to be honest one thing that angers me to not filing yet is the thought that she won (OW)

I know all the reasons why I can and maybe should, and then there is that point that says maybe there is hope that he will turn his life around. I should be caring for myself, taking care of me. I guess there I am still not ready but it angers me that our family is not a priority to him.

This is my one small bit of advice.

You must realize that all you can control is you.

You can't fix him, you can't plead, coerce, force, etc. him to do anything or be anything. That is on him.

You can help you. That is all you can do. How that influences others is up to them.

Make things better for you.

pf, in your shoes (with two adult children, rather than younger children who might give your H a sense of responsibility) I would be in a proper Plan B now with a view to filing for divorce soon - and staying in Plan B after the divorce.

Exactly how soon depends on when you feel ready to divorce, and other things such as whether there are financial or medical benefits that you gain from staying married. If there is money coming the way of either of you, such as an insurance policy that is due to mature, a lawyer's advice should be sought to work out which status will benefit you more.

Filing for divorce does not necessarily mean that you are moving on. It might be that it takes a long time for a divorce to be final (it does here in the UK) and that you are preparing yourself for the eventuality that he stays with OW and your feelings die, and you want to be able to date again easily in a few years. You can file for divorce to protect yourself financially. For example; is he spending any joint money on her? Is he running up debts that you will be jointly liable for? If so, a divorce will put an end to his having access to your money.

So what I'm saying is, there are sometimes good reasons to divorce now and sometimes good reasons to stay legally married. You need to work out your options with a lawyer.

Divorce does not mean that OW won, BTW. It would be an act of empowerment for you to say that you do not want to be married to this cheating scumbag and she, the gutter tart, can have him. Stop worrying about what it means to her and start considering what it means to you.

X100 on this.

Also, the OW will not win if you divorce. Remember, she gets the scumbag that cant think with the right head. You get happiness, less stress, peace. Sounds to me like you'd win that hands down.

I wanted to change the title of this but not sure how. If I knew how I would change it to LIVING A LIFE I DON'T WANT TO LIVE. Easter was depressing maybe because of where I found myself spending it. Maybe it was a realization of what I don't want.
Easter morning I received a call from my friend who invited me and the kids to dinner at her place. Although I really didn't want to go I felt it was better to get out of the house as I didn't feel like cooking myself.

We all dressed and went over her place it was a small crowd, my friend and her kids, her mom and her grandchildren who she is raising and myself and my kids. No husband/fathers! Here we were three women abandoned in one way or another by their spouses with children. At one point I sat there looking at them knowing they felt the same pain I have been carrying and all I could say in my heart was, THIS IS NOT THE LIFE I WANT TO LIVE.

Someone once said in a preaching or some Oprah show that we attract to us who we are...power of attraction or something to that effect.

The life that I want is one that includes him that was what all my plans and visions were about. At our age it was now down to us. The kids are starting to leave the nest and it was suppose to be our time. Maybe I waited too long and should have had our time all along.

Are you going into Plan B? Have an IM?

I am in plan B ended all contact! I am in a town where I am away from all my family. All I have here are my children. I haven't been able to return to church as long as this has been going on. Well lets just say I've been isolating. Not sure what you mean by IM ***EDIT***

For the protection of our members, forum rules do not allow contact details to be posted.

An intermediary for any communication that may need to happen.

Here IM Training School

Oh yes I have one but there has been no need for one. There's been no contact from either end. I let him know who in the letter to spouse I sent him.

Good.

What are you doing for yourself while in Plan B? Self care is vital.

Enrich your life.
Try out a new sport/hobby.
Volunteer.
Host a tea party for your girlfriends.
Take a shut-in some flowers and a meal.
Go to the library and take out 5 books. Weekly.
Take singing lessons.
Take dance lessons.
Plant a garden.
Ask your elderly neighbors if they need any help with grocery shopping.
Ask your young neighbors if they need a baby sitter Saturday night.

Look at what you wrote ~~~>LIVING A LIFE I DON'T WANT TO LIVE

WELL, get busy changing that.
Your life will never be perfect, but it is certainly worth living.

That's really it, its been 3 weeks since he's been gone I kind of fell into a slump and lack desire to do anything. And pretty much everything I've been doing is studying and reading about MB and how to prepare myself about this situation.

I don't understand why Plan B is so difficult for me this time. In December just before he came back home saying all the right things at least I thought (didn't say the one true tell which I realize now) I was doing so great. No contacting my but off, it had gotten so easy to fight that I wouldn't answer one call or email or FB even the day he came back after calling my daughter to ask her to have me answer I said NOOOO!! As usual he came up with a story as to how bad his life is now and how he needs his family yada yada yada.

This was about a 3 month stay this last time, and now I am finding it extremely difficult to get out of what I call obsessive thinking. Just all day and night even having dreams about him and I'm not one to dream much. I may have too much information on this affair than I needed.

In this teeter totter of the back and forth I worry that this last time I caused myself some self inflicted wounds.

I go back and forth on divorce, don't divorce, you don't have to decide that today.

I had gotten to a point in december where I said come January its a new life for me, I will file for divorce and live life as I wanted it, not gonna lie a big help in that department were the two male friends (emotional affairs) I was involving myself in which I came clean about rather proudly to my WH and then ended. I had no problem doing this for him. I was really a act of vengeance. Not proud of it and I tried to make amends for it to H. And it was good for a while he was really doing and saying the right things, but then began to contact the OW again and the proof came quickly.

Anyway I wonder if having had him home these last three months where I was in a plan A to the best of my latin ability and seemed to be making strides made it all the more difficult when he messed up again. He even confessed he didn't want to leave the house (yeah but you weren't giving up the affair either) cake eater!!

Plan Bing but this time it's much more difficult, having in the past had a support system and looking after the last false recovery I lost a lot that due to friends feeling he wasn't going to change at least not that quickly and staying away. I also haven't been able to face people thinking it failed again kind of shame.

I know all the reasons why I shouldn't want my husband, heck they are the same reasons he shouldn't want this other woman. The little voice of hope at times can be the most annoying thing.

You love him, that's why. Your love for him is hurting you right now.
He's such a fool for not recognizing the greatest love this world will ever offer him. The love of a woman who knows his flaws and is willing to forgive and live a better life with him.

His foolishness irritates me a LOT !

Pepperband thank you for saying that. I have been fighting saying that out loud that I do love him as if I have to be ashamed of that too being so In Love with a man that doesn't love me back.

The hard love buster to fight to change is that physical attractiveness thing. Its 23 years of marriage been together 30 and actually we first dated when we were 13 so its been a almost lifelong relationship. I have put on too much weight 50 lbs and got very comfortable with my appearance assured that he loved me for me not considering that it was one of the things if not the major thing that drew him to me in the first place. I am working on taking the weight off already lost 9 since he left three weeks ago on Adkins and drinking lots of water, some was also due to sadness.

It is hard to tell what you are currently doing, but there are some things in your post above that still seem to show you really don't understand the plan.



Plan B doesn't involve not answering him or his calls or his emails, etc.

It involves not getting them. No Contact. Not no returned contact.

This is a big distinction. Not sure you get it.

mmmherb I could change my phone number but the majority of the calls he makes to me are at my job and that number I cannot change. I gave him the no letter to H but he is not sticking to it and will call or contact my daughter at times he knows we will be together like when we are driving home as we commute together back and forth to work.

Any suggestions on how I can take no contact further?

Hang up within 3 seconds.

Here's one:

"Daughter, your father's actions in carrying on his affair are causing me great distress. Please do not talk to him on the phone when I am around."

I thought of that all on my own.

He is not going to honor your letter any more that he is going to honor his vows to you. It is up to you.

There are ways.

I am not a big Star Wars guy, but I love the Yoda quote:

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

Buy a whistle.
If it's WH on the phone, blow your whistle HARD before hanging up.
That's standard advice if a woman has a "breather" who keeps calling her.
Don't ask me how I know but, it works to stop unwanted calls, and it works quickly.


***edit**

The work calls, you may have to get creative. Your phone likely had caller ID, so his number is going to show up. I don't know how much this will make your Plan B ineffective, because when I was in mine my wife never called. But if you can block it, it will be much better.

The whistle or something may eventually work. The sooner you can rid yourself of daily or periodic stabs in the heart, the better.

But you will have to actively do it.

I dont answer at work, and my daughter is aware of not answering on when I'm around. It doesn't stop him from calling I cant stop him from doing so. But I don't answer. We have not spoken since March 10. And I wonder if its because of so many feelings coming back.

The whistle is hysterical!! Laughing over here!! I can't block calls on that work phone but I'll think of something. Yeah it does have caller ID that's how I know its him. Is he doing the stab at the heart thing purposely?

Who knows?
Waywards are selfish.
They want what they want.
They don't care who they hurt.

Protect yourself.

Is it normal to think this is too much to ever get past . Starting to think its no longer worth considering to reconcile even if we ever got to the point of it being an option

Completely normal. I am right there with you. Still on the rollercoaster.

Unless WH changes,..... his current behavior is way past too much.
Could he change? Yes. Will that happen? Who knows. Will you be around by the time he makes those changes? Perhaps, & perhaps not.

Your job is not to predict the future.
Your job is to protect yourself today. Your job is to keep your side of things unsoiled. Become a very healthy woman.
If the WS takes a long time to 'see the light', the BS becomes the bigger obstacle to reconciliation.

The decision was, is and will remain yours to make. Only you know when you've had enough. That is one of the key things that makes this forum as successful as it is. Nobody judges you for deciding either way. They only help you along the way, either way.

Thank you Wow777 and Pepperband my thoughts go either way depending on the date and time.

BetrayedP I know exactly what you're saying the ups and downs of it all.

Thats why we sleep on these decisions and run them by the vets here. They will ask the hard questions and help you see more clearly.

You are not alone in your thoughts being all over the place. It's a rollercoaster ride for sure but I'm told by some that the hills of the coaster begin to level out eventually making the ups and downs not so severe.

That is the one thing about Plan B that I think most miss. If we are honest in looking back, we all enter it as on more step in the process we are using to get our marriage back.

But more importantly, it stops the constant battering of our heart by the actions of the WS. Every time we are stabbed, every shot our heart takes, our love dies more and more in fairly large chunks.

Plan B stops that. The feelings are frozen somewhat, allowed to go dormant and slowly bleed away if it goes on for a long time. But this is good because it is gradual and extended instead.

Then, one of two things happen. The time will come for you to reconcile and you will want to.

Or it won't. Maybe it will never come, but the feelings have died and it won't hurt like it did.

Or, the time may come and the WS may have a change and decide to reconcile. But, then you have a decision to make and can do it somewhat rationally without the raw emotion from before.

No matter what the path, you are emotionally healthier, able to go the path you decide in a manner that is productive and healthy.

Never overlook that Plan B is really about achieving this.

I have been in Plan B for a few weeks since I put my WH out of the house for contacting the OW again. Since he left the phone calls have been regular every two days or so. But I have not answered them. I must admit I'm getting curious to find out what he has to say to me. It's probably more WS fog talk or to get off some of the guilt because he knows I have been having health problems.

Because I've been in Plan B I've refused every call. This morning he called our daughter on our commute to work and asked to put me on the phone. I told her no I won't talk to him. But its getting difficult to fight and I was just starting to feel better.

Don't you have an intermediary for him to contact?

He's not following the rules...

Maybe not, but you are. Maybe you should change your voicemail message to say, "if this is my husband, please call IM as he/she can get in touch with me if necessary" or something like that. Let him know that you have no intentions of taking his calls without actually talking to him

Princefan, please have the mods merge your threads. I know you were given advice about changing your #, etc already.

Can't your work phone malfunction?

Do you have a boss or someone who can speak to him? Many would not appreciate their work phones tied up and could threaten him with legal action (aggravated harassment).

Worth a shot

Also, ask your daughter not to answer the phone calls from him in your presence.

In your other thread, you said your daughter understood.

You have to make this happen. No one is gonna do it for you, or even understand.

It is up to you.

This was the advice my IM gave me for my children and it worked:

Your kids need to memorize this line:

"Dad, please stop putting us in the middle and just contact xxx"

Every time he tries to pass a message on through them, change a visitation, plan something new, etc., they need to repeat this line... and tell them they don't need to say anything else but that. Even if they have to repeat that line 25 times in one evening. He will eventually realize that the kids don't want to be his messenger.

Broken record for the slower learning waywards.

It is CRITICAL when you enter Plan B that your WH cannot get through. He's not playing by the rules because he sees that he doesn't have to.

Brainstorm to come up with a solution for the workphone. Maybe screen all calls. If he leaves a VM, do not listen and erase it immediately.

If he cannot get through, he WILL use the IM. It's just a matter of plugging up the holes.

Of course he's not.
He did not follow the rules of marriage either.
Nothing unexpected.

Once he can't get through to you on the work phone, be prepared for him to try to break through in other ways. Leaving you a note in the mailbox, trying to catch you as you are arriving home/leaving, etc. Be ready and have a plan. Do not talk to him and do not read anything he leaves for you.

Sorry if this was covered earlier, I haven't read the entire thread.

This is just like him never follows rules. But I will ask the kids tonight to plug up the holes and remind them to give him a call back when I'm not around.

He has even been questioning them as to weather I'm dating someone else. REALLY ASK THE KIDS THAT!!

Yes, this is my xWH and probably many WSs. Yet, he did use the IM because he had no other option.

And make no mistake about it .... WH breaking the rules does not spell "I love you" at all!


WH breaking the rules says "I want what I want and I don't care about what you want."

He's been the TAKER and you've been the GIVER, and WH likes it that way.

It is NOT a "good sign" or a sign that he "misses" you.
He misses using you.
He misses controlling you.
He misses gas-lighting you.

If he wants to be a rule-following married man, he will follow the rules and let your IM know he is prepared for MB coaching/accountability.
(don't hold your breath)

Gently remind your kids not to share anything that WH says to them (even if it is about you) with you.

I agree.
Work with the kids to agree on a simple hand signal that you use to signal the kids "Stop. This is not for Mommy's ears."

If they have something they *think* might be "super special important" .... invite the kids to call the IM themselves to tell that piece of info to the IM.

He wants you to be dating someone else because that lets him and his infidel off the hook. Stay strong

I don't know that this is a fact.
It is pure conjecture.
It may be some other warped wayward reasoning.

BUT it MATTERS NOT !!!!
It is NOT your business Prince, to figure out WHY WH is doing this nonsense.
It is your JOB to stop listening to this nonsense.

[/quote]And make no mistake about it .... WH breaking the rules does not spell "I love you" at all! [/quote]

OUCH maybe my heart hoped him calling was him missing me due to love. Best to snap out of that thought now!! Thanks for that reality check

OK he called again on my cell phone this time I answered. Maybe I should not have but it was starting to get to me. For a moment though I did think it was going to be the big D talk. (that never came up). Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes. But here's what happened.

I answered he was pissy and said "so now you answer." (Rolling my eyes) I really wanted to go off but kept my cool and asked if there was anything wrong, changing the mood. He said he just wanted to check how my health was (mind you he is fully aware that I am under a doctors care and the kids have told him how I am as it comes up in every conversation with them, so they tell me), that and do I have a boyfriend, REALLY ASKING THE KIDS THAT!!

I went on to clarity why I haven't answered his calls letting him no that although I love him I will not be a third party to this whatever, that I am his wife and will conduct myself as such but I see no need in conversing with him as long as he continues in this fantasy/affair/addiction who knows. If he has anything important he can call our IC otherwise I will be doing what I need to do.

I did tell him that until that affair is completely over and he dedicates himself 100% to healing our marriage, relationship, and family I will speak to him. I also let him know it saddens me that he has lost so much in his life due to his addictions but that this last one will cost him the most valuable thing he had left his family...

I asked him to refer to the letter I sent him, he did throw it out or so he said. I think this will let him know enough is enough.

Did I mess up here???
Now I'm second guessing!!!

It gives me no pleasure to swat you .... but you need to deal with the facts.

I did tell him that until that affair is completely over and he dedicates himself 100% to healing our marriage, relationship, and family I will speak to him. (CORRECTION WILL NOT SPEAK TO HIM)

Don't repeat this mistake.
OK?

Any reason he should believe you?

What the????

Why in the world is he able to call you on your cell phone????

When Scotland was first in Plan B, she struggled with annoying thoughts/longings about her WH (living with OW).

We brainstormed & came up with the "loony jar".
Scotland lives in Canada. The Canadian Govt. made some new coins with ducks (loons) on them.
Every time she caught herself thinking or talking about WH, she put a loon in the jar. The kids (2 sons) helped her. They loved the "loony jar". When there was enough coins, they went out for family fun night using the loons.

Just an idea.

For any plan to work, there is one condition.

You have to follow it.

Until you are through playing at it, I am through.

Understood I will make it impossible for any contact other than through the IC.

I really like this idea I think I'll use it!

From the "How to Plan B Correctly" thread (I see that it was posted to you earlier.)

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787



Your WH is going to be that much more persistent now because you just told him that you don't mean what you say. Not good.

Do you want help to have an airtight Plan B or???

What changes are you going to make?

PF, why didn't you answer this?

I see that mmmherb also tried to address this issue w/you earlier in the thread and you kind of blew him off.

You just taught him that if he is persistant enough you WILL answer his call.

You have to change your cell phone number - or learn how to BLOCK his calls.

You **like** knowing that he's trying, don't you?
But you need to understand that you just made Plan B a little less painful to him....he just got a "fix"....now he can go back to affair-land a little bit longer....and next time he needs a fix, he'll just call 30 times instead of 20...cuz you'll answer....

You just helped the affair last a little bit longer....
Was that what you wanted?

Yup.

Susie in all of this I have changed my phone number 5 times so much so that my own family cant keep track of it. I have two elderly parents and my mom is very forgetful, she can't remember my number any more. I was really thinking of her when I decided not to change my number this time again.

[quote=SusieQ
Your WH is going to be that much more persistent now because you just told him that you don't mean what you say. Not good.

Do you want help to have an airtight Plan B or???

[/quote]


He wouldn't have known that I meant not to speak to him as he never read the letter.

BTW my parents live in a different state in the other side of the country so I don't see them often and my number is the only way my family can get in touch with me especially if there is an emergency.

Reminder:
He's a liar.

You can block him, PF. Why isn't he blocked?

First of all, BEFORE you break Plan B, talk to us to let us help you with whatever issue you believe needs to be addressed.

Secondly, I posted to you a solution to this problem but you obviously didn't read it or don't want to hear it. Here, again:

Well I guess at this point I may need to explain a little more, financially I have had to cut corners all around. The state I live in is a no fault state, even it it wasn't I was the main bread winner of the family but not by much.

Because of the loss of income on his end I have had to cut corners to simply get by. That mean using a prepaid phone carrier that carrier does not do number blocking. The most I can do is on my phone send his calls directly to voice mail. Which I have done today just in hopes to deter any more contact.

My financial situation also makes it difficult to do the wonderful me things I want to do, like travel and take classes. Unless its free I can't take part of it. I have a pretty inexpensive place to live, and my children although attending school have jobs and help as much as they can with what they earn but it is tight.

Its not that I am not willing to do all these big steps its that I have to find a way to do them on my budget.

Do you even have an IM? I don't think I have seen you mention one.

These plans are specific for a reason.

Then you need to change the number, pf. If you changed it five times, then six is not a big deal. Someone crossing off a number and writing down a new one, is not a big deal.

There is no excuse that will fly with me not to do this.

It should have been done in the first place and now that your WH knows he can get through, it becomes even more important.

This is a dealbreaker. If you are unwilling to do this, then you are not serious about Plan B.

Please respond. Thanks.

Yes we have an IM, my cousin, she knows it should only be important information which is really nothing, he has absolutely no reason to speak to me, no valid reason.

Very well I'll change my number.

Great. Please make sure everyone that you give the new # to knows that it is not to be given to WH. If you are unsure that they will be able to do this then don't give it to them. Otherwise, you will have to change the number, again.

I'm gonna be blunt with you.

Until you get out in front of this, understand it and actually embrace it and stop just following instructions, you will have trouble.

You need to understand this Plan.

I will allow that just doing it, following instructions, may actually allow you to start seeing the benefits and finally embrace it. But I more believe that you will never stick to it long enough for that to happen.

You have never bought in.

As I have said before, this isn't the plan B game, the "I'll show him" game, the"see how he likes these apples" game.

Plan B is not a set of instructions, it is a life change.

mmmherb I see what your saying. Yes there is a ever present voice in the back of my head that is always saying I want my marriage, I want my husband.

I see that now that I need to realize that this may not be a affair fog at all but that he is gone and I have to create a new life for myself.

Hard to face you may have lost someone forever.

I can commiserate with you as I did a bad job at Plan B. It is hard. And the withdrawal makes it bad. But it's like quitting smoking. Everytime you say just one drag, etc, the harder it is to quit again. So you gotta be strong from the very get go.

You are making the fundamental mistake:

Think about what you are basically saying. You are saying that continuing to allow him to do what he has been doing is the way to save your marriage. To have a lover, to come and go in and out of your life, to tear you apart is the way. Doesn't really make sense, does it?

If you want things to change, you have to change them. All you can change is you.

The best way to save your marriage is to want to do it if the time comes. Soon you won't.

URGENT:

So I got a call from my cousin our IM this morning. She said that WH stated to her that he doesn't want to be with OW anymore and wants to talk to me about being back home!

We have gone through too many false starts to take another hit in the gut.

I told my cousin under no circumstances would I allow him back in until he is absolutely done with this woman. That he has to leave her first.

But what do I do next. He may decide to stay with her he may not I don't know all I know is I don't want to go through it again. Its this time, the final try. I don't want to make any mistakes I need help from the experts!!

You have a self-care Plan B day.

He's *thinking about* doing the right thing.
Always a false start.


Good for you for not falling for it like you did in the past!

First off...your IM needs to stop sharing everything with you. You need to be detaching and healing yourself while Plan B works (or doesn't work) on the back side.


Your IM (NOT YOU) should respond

"That's great but I'm not forwarding this conversation to princefan until you've actually moved out and ended it with OW for life. Words are cheap. Put your money where you mouth is and then I'll consider bringing Princefan into this discussion.

To reiterate. MOVING OUT AND ENDING YOUR AFFAIR is the first condition of POSSIBLE reconciliation (please reread the letter dated XX/xx/xxxx). TALKING about moving out and ending it is NOT the same thing as doing it.

Let me know when you are actually out"

Good MrW that's sound advice!

I asked the IM to give him the message that my conditions on my letter stand. He would have to end that relationship for life. But he would need to prove that first. Move on his own shows me he is serious about the marriage and the family. And I asked he to not communicate anything further until he has stepped out of that relationship.

You need to make sure the IM takes care of this in the future. She is to be a firewall, protecting you for the flip flopping and stuff.

She is to be a firewall, she is not a message deliverer either way, not a pipeline for him to communicate with you.

She needs to understand that she is to not come to you until she is 100% sure he is 100% committed, demonstrated by his actions, not his words.

Make sure you IM is wearing steel underpants. No leaks.

Oh she's a FIREBALL I will definately make sure to tell her to step up the security measures. She'll get a kick out of it.

Your IM needs more education on his/her job. She/he should read some threads here about being an IM and post any questions they may have. She/he needs to be protecting you from these "emergencies". It's not healthy for you and YOU MATTER TOO.

I think if and when your husband does move out and end it with OW that that is still not the time for you to get directly involved. Your IM should then facilitate condition numbers 2 and 3 (IM is to communicate this AFTER he's moved out and ended it...don't give his wayward mind seemingly overwhelming obstacles to returning home...one step at time...ending it is the only initial concern and objective):


Condition #2. After he's move out...he needs an accountability partner - either the IM or you (via the IM not by direct communication) need to be given all access and passwords to any electronic devices (cell phones, emails, cell phone bills, a remote computer keylogger program) such that he can demonstrate that he's not only moved out but he's also not contacting the OW at all. [his willingness alone to do this is a step in the right direction...any hesitancy or demands for privacy is an indication the affair isn't really over). Every evening he should email the accountability partner and give an update with regards to contact. One day a time recovery (he's likely familiar with this)

Condition #3. He's in a substance abuse recovery program (12 step or other program) and has a male sponsor willing to assist the IM with objectively evaluating the veracity of WH's sobriety (from all addictions). IM should have a sit down with WH and his sponsor and develop a plan for first bringing you, princefan, into the conversation and meetings (say after one month of continued and verified sobriety as well as continued "No Contact"). Then once it's IM, Sponsor, WH and You involved conversations begin about dating, him reading and learning the MB infidelity recovery plan and him moving back home. I'm not a fan of waiting too long. 6 months would be ridiculous (and never something you want to give as a condition upfront because it'll seem insurmountable to a wayward). If you (and he) are serious about recovery you've got to do it together...living together as husband and wife. Goalposts are nice markers but true repentance is rather easy to spot and your IM needs to be objective and help you evaluate when the timing is right. Hopefully after about 2 months of sobriety (including a month or so of your direct contact...dating, talking and discussing the MB recovery plan and, of course, continued NO CONTACT he'll be ready to come back home and work on Condition 4 (working the MB infidelity recovery program with you for ONE YEAR MINIMUM...including 15 scheduled hours a week together, extraordinary precautions (against contact with OW AND addictive substances of any kind). Personally, I'd like to see the two of you working together...this guy doesn't sound like he can handle himself alone out there in the real world. He can't be trusted out of your sight..so the best recovery would be him staying within your sight.

Also... I want you to be careful who you seek advice from and listen to during this period. One of the reasons Plan B works is it makes your husband rely on OW to meet all his needs. It drives him nuts that he can't talk and see you at will anymore. It's essentially a withdrawal effect from his relationship with you. Problem is...YOU are going through withdrawal too. This is a healthy process for you....helping you detach from your WH so as to preserve any remaining feelings you have for him should he end it and want to reconcile OR so you can get on with your life without him under the presumption he may never return. However, YOUR withdrawal will play tricks on you. Your brain is going to try to find excuses, rationalizations and justifications to reconnect with him for just one more conversation or meeting. You'll tell yourself (and us) you just had "no choice". Your brain is going to want your IM to tell you everything going on with WH and OW. You may even search the internet or other forums for persons (usually divorced or just stupid) that will encourage you to chuck Dr. Harley's ideas and concepts in the ditch and do whatever you want or feel is necessary or important. Don't allow their failure to cloud your judgement. You must think RATIONALLY and use your intelligence to override your [temporary] feelings. Feeling lie [your WH being exhibit A of that fact]. Finally family is often the worst place to get objective advice as they only see your pain (or their own pain) and will encourage you simply to get away from the pain and give up or worse do what THEY want you to do and not what's best for you to do.

The beauty of following Dr. Harley's concepts strictly is that in the end you'll be OK either way. WH will either wake up and do what he can to get you back or not...while you'll be healing on your own ready to either recover or continue on with your life (with an initial period of recovery already behind you). Modified Plan B won't help you or your husband at all. I think your chances for recovery are quite slim considering the number of addiction problems your husband faces....every time you screw up Plan B makes those odds slimmer and slimmer....so STOP IT. Plan B and start living YOUR LIFE (as hard as that seems today) and see what happens.


Godspeed,

Mr. W

Mr M that is perfect. I'm printing this out and really studying it!