Marriage Builders
Posted By: AgentS Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 05:13 PM
I first want to say thank you to all the members on this site. I have been reading on this forum for a few months, and you have all helped me immensely!

Here's some history of my situation. My WW & I have been friends for ~20 years. We started dating 12 years ago, and have been married for 7 1/2 years. We have 2 daughters (3 & 1 1/2). Our marriage has been jaded for a couple years now, but I associated it with having children. Four months ago I found out that my WW was having an EA with a coworker. That was going on for 6 months when I found out. The day I found out I felt anger, fear, betrayal, and I panicked. I left work, got the girls, and brought then to my mother's house. She swears it was just a "connection", and that they kissed a few times. Since then, we have been separated. We each took time to figure out what we wanted. During that time, I seriously changed as a person...for the better. I'm an optimist now, not a pessimist. I can honestly say I love myself now. I focus my passion on gratitude, appreciation, love, etc, rather than annoyance, aggravation, and anger. I had a "strong" personality, and she became suppressed and felt suffocated. Those were her main issues with me. She has told me that she sees my changes, and she's happy for me. However, she wrote me a letter a month later saying she didn't want to work on our marriage. I think I just made too many withdrawals from her love bank. She told me the spark was gone, and she didn't think she could get it back.

At the time, she said it was over with OM, and he was not the reason why she didn't want to try. But I have also learned that, since that letter, they have slept together. My family and friends know about their relationship, but I'm not so sure her family and friends know. She has also changed jobs, so they no longer work together. Not sure why she left her job.

I have gone through the emotional rollercoaster that most go through. One day/week/month I feel optimistic that I accept her decision and I will once again be happy in the future. I have felt strong for weeks at a time. But lately, every Sunday when we exchange the kids, my heart is torn apart again. When we exchange emails/texts (re: finances, kids, etc), I miss her, and it kills me inside. We remain very cordial, kind, and respectful to each other. Aside from the night of our talk when I tried to reason with her, I have been doing a decent job at a 180 (didn't pursue, beg, discuss my feelings, etc). I rekindled old friendships and hobbies. But we don't live together, so she doesn't see all my changes. It's been 4 months and nothing has changed. I told her on Mother's Day that I miss her and miss having a life with her. Those are my only feelings I've shared with her in 4 months. We have not discussed a single thing about D at this point. Oh, one more factor to note. We are currently doing a "nesting" agreement. The kids stay in the house, but me & her split time there 50/50.

So that leads me to where I am now. I am considering a Plan B letter, but I think it might be a waste as far as R is concerned, because she has expressed no desire to R. A part of me wants to do this as a last resort/hope to get her to change her mind. I also want to know in the end that I tried everything. But I also want this for my own sanity. I can't continue to have my heart torn apart every contact we have. I will NEVER get over her at this pace. I feel that cutting her off completely will allow me to get over her, and eventually move forward in my life. But of course, a part of me still loves and misses her and has hope. Whether that hope is real, or IF we can even R, even if she wanted, I don't know. Would a Plan B work if we split a house, even though we don't spend the same nights there? I would have family/friends exchange on Sundays.

Thoughts? Should I consider exposing to her family & friends first? I'm not sure whether or not they know. I know my chances of her changing her mind are slim to none. But is there even a glimmer of hope?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 05:28 PM
Quote
But is there even a glimmer of hope?
There is, but it's not in Plan B. Only go to Plan B if you have no desire whatsoever to recover your marriage. Plan B is to protect you, not to save your marriage. It is not a tool to bring your WW back.

If you want to bring her back, you will need to Plan A.

But first, you need to kill the affair. Yes, expose!
And stop leaving the house. Go home, and stay home.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 05:29 PM
BTW, you will get more help on the Surviving An Affair forum. Click "notify" at the bottom of your post and ask the moderators to move your thread there.
Posted By: markos Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 05:44 PM
Dear AgentS,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I am very sorry for the circumstances that bring you here.

Please click the "notify" button and ask the moderators to move your thread to the "Surviving an Affair" section. Most of the people who can give you really good advice for your situation hang out there, so you will get more attention.

Originally Posted by AgentS
I am considering a Plan B letter, but I think it might be a waste as far as R is concerned, because she has expressed no desire to R. A part of me wants to do this as a last resort/hope to get her to change her mind.

Plan B is not a last resort and it does not cause wayward spouses to change their minds. Please slow down and take the time to get educated on Dr. Harley's methods. You wouldn't want to make a wrong move, if you want to keep your marriage.

Here is some important educational help for you:

Video (free): Infidelity: What Every Couple Should Know by Dr. Harley
Articles (free): How to Survive Infidelity, 30 articles by Dr. Harley
Basic Concepts (free): Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts
$9.99: Surviving an Affair Dr. Harley's classic book on infidelity, coauthored with his daughter Dr. Jennifer Chalmers (ebook edition; you can be reading it on your computer immediately)
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 05:56 PM
Thank you all for the quick responses. I will notify a mod to move the thread. I also know this is a very important and pivotal point in my life. That's why I'm here...to get advice from other, more experienced people before I make any decisions.
Posted By: schtoop Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 06:22 PM
Others will help you shortly, but first I'm going to give you some bad news...

You are way behind the power curve at this point.

First, the affair was physical before you found out and separated. Adults that emphatuated with each other and have opportunity don't "just kiss". It is a standard method of denial by waywards and saying "we just kissed" means they had sex and lots of it. Pretty much 100% of the time.

Secondly, I know you didn't know any better, but the 4-month seperation just gave you wife time to get much further entrenched in her affair. Now intstead of stolen moments, they are openly spending all night and every available night in each others arms. And, when you expose your wife can counter with her excuse that it happened after you separated.

It won't necessarily be impossible, but now it will be much more difficult to break up this affair. There can be no progress towards reconciliation until the affair is busted.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
But is there even a glimmer of hope?
There is, but it's not in Plan B. Only go to Plan B if you have no desire whatsoever to recover your marriage. Plan B is to protect you, not to save your marriage. It is not a tool to bring your WW back.

If you want to bring her back, you will need to Plan A.

But first, you need to kill the affair. Yes, expose!
And stop leaving the house. Go home, and stay home.

Thank you and your husband for your responses. I'm confused about Plan B now. I've reviewed sample letters and all basically seem like they're saying they want their spouse back and want to save thier feelings for them by stopping communication. Is that, then, just the hope, not the intention? It didn't seem like the people who wrote PBL had no desire to save the marriage. It seemed like all they wanted was go save their marriage!

Also, I have no idea how to expose. Do I just call her mom, brother, and email her friends? And say what? That she's involved with another guy, and she was for 6 months prior to our separation? How detailed do I get? And how do I say it without sounding like the jealous or bitter husband? I accept my role in her unhappiness, so I wouldn't want to just finger point.

One last thing. I thought about returning home. A hesitation of mine is that she makes a lot more than I do, and she pays the entire mortgage. If I move in, I'm guessing she'll put that payment on me, and I can't afford it on my own. Maybe that's just the excuse I'm telling myself.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:22 PM
A lot of people who go to Plan B DO want to save their marriage. But Dr. Harley rarely advises men to go to Plan B. As a man, your odds of winning your wife back by going to Plan B is extremely low.

I'll quote Sugarcane on this one, because I think she summarized Dr. Harley's thoughts on it very well:

Originally Posted by Sugarcane
I've heard Dr H say this many times. Plan B for a man is essentially a step towards divorce. Men who want to fight for their marriages in response to an affair need to outlast the affair and out-love the OM. A man needs to show himself to be there waiting to pick up the pieces when the affair falls apart. She needs to see that you did not give up on her if she is ever to go back to you.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:24 PM
Read this:

Exposure 101
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by schtoop
Others will help you shortly, but first I'm going to give you some bad news...

You are way behind the power curve at this point.

First, the affair was physical before you found out and separated. Adults that emphatuated with each other and have opportunity don't "just kiss". It is a standard method of denial by waywards and saying "we just kissed" means they had sex and lots of it. Pretty much 100% of the time.

Secondly, I know you didn't know any better, but the 4-month seperation just gave you wife time to get much further entrenched in her affair. Now intstead of stolen moments, they are openly spending all night and every available night in each others arms. And, when you expose your wife can counter with her excuse that it happened after you separated.

It won't necessarily be impossible, but now it will be much more difficult to break up this affair. There can be no progress towards reconciliation until the affair is busted.

I know I'm behind on the power curve. I have no idea how to get it back. I tried being "independent", showing her I'm strong, happy, not needy, etc.

As for them, I would be surprised if they were sleeping before we separated. I'm not naive where I think it was impossible for them to. Of course they could have. And I completely understand why people here automatically say that. I feel bad getting his detailed, but we were sleeping together fight until we separated. She wasn't, lets say groomed, for a while. Something she always used to do. Now that we're separated, I find wax strips in the garbage regularly. Plus, the OM has a huge mouth. He tells his ex everything. He told exactly when stuff happened between them. Again, they def could have, but the signs were just not there until we separated. Either way, regardless of when it started, it needs to end. So any detailed ideas how to stop it? I know I have to expose...just don't know how or what to say.

Does everyone here think I need to return home fulltime?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:29 PM
Quote
So any detailed ideas how to stop it? I know I have to expose...just don't know how or what to say.
The link I gave you above will give you the when and how to expose, plus common mistakes to avoid. There's a sample letter there, as well.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:34 PM
Please read the thread that has been linked regarding exposure and come back and talk to us about it. We will help you tweak your plan.

The affair has thrived all of this time because it was never properly exposed.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:34 PM
Sample letter:

Quote
Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a old boyfriend named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 08:39 PM
The affair has also thrived because you moved out of your house. Is there any type of court order or separation agreement regarding this? If not, I would make plans to move back. Do not ask her for her feedback regarding this...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
I know I'm behind on the power curve. I have no idea how to get it back. I tried being "independent", showing her I'm strong, happy, not needy, etc.


You need a proper Plan A --- the carrot & the stick!

Quote
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
[

Thank you and your husband for your responses. I'm confused about Plan B now. I've reviewed sample letters and all basically seem like they're saying they want their spouse back and want to save thier feelings for them by stopping communication. Is that, then, just the hope, not the intention? It didn't seem like the people who wrote PBL had no desire to save the marriage. It seemed like all they wanted was go save their marriage!

SOME people HOPE their marriage will reconcile after Plan B, but that is not the purpose. Plan B cannot cause reconcilation. Its only purpose is to protect the betrayed spouse from the effects of abuse. Most men can avoid Plan B and are better off staying in the game and competing with the affair partner.

Quote
Also, I have no idea how to expose. Do I just call her mom, brother, and email her friends? And say what? That she's involved with another guy, and she was for 6 months prior to our separation? How detailed do I get? And how do I say it without sounding like the jealous or bitter husband? I accept my role in her unhappiness, so I wouldn't want to just finger point.

Go read the thread in my signature. It will answer these questions.

Quote
One last thing. I thought about returning home. A hesitation of mine is that she makes a lot more than I do, and she pays the entire mortgage. If I move in, I'm guessing she'll put that payment on me, and I can't afford it on my own. Maybe that's just the excuse I'm telling myself.

She can't legally put the entire mortgage on you. A person can't just walk away from their bills.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/14/13 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
Does everyone here think I need to return home fulltime?

We are telling you what Dr Harley would tell you to do. Moving out has only served to facilitate the affair and made it much harder to save your marriage. You can turn that around, though.
Posted By: Marie0128 Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 03:00 AM
Hello, I haven't told my story yet, but will very soon. So does this mean that for a woman that it may be easier to win back a husband with plan B. I'm in plan B now. What's the difference?
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 03:08 AM
WOW. I read the first couple pages of Exposure 101, and I am impressed and, to be honest, scared. I know what I have to do. But as you all know, this isn't easy to swallow either. At this point, I just need to put together a plan, email, and figure out all the details of email addresses, exactly who, etc.

But I can't thank you all enough for your help. I knew I should have starting posting earlier!

Should I still expose in the workplace now that my WW left the job? If so, the sample letter doesn't fully apply anymore. She does still have friends there, and OM is still there. Do I still have the head of HR look into phone records, etc?

Also, in the exposure letter do I address some potential excuses she has told others why we are breaking up? I imagine she told them I'm this angry guy who treated her bad, etc. In fact, I heard from a friend that she told her friends I did some messed up stuff to our kids. He told me in confidence, and asked that I don't repeat that to her because she would know he is the only person I would hear that from. I just imagine she will deny everything to her friends and family after my letter, and certainly minimize their relationship.

If I'm going to expose in the near future (this week), does it matter whether I move back into the house full time before or after the exposure? That will definitely be a double-whammy for her, and I know she will not be happy! But I loved the analogy of "it's like taking a crack pipe away from a crack head". I just didn't know if people had a suggestion of which to do first since they will both be happening very soon.

Thank you all again!

Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 03:13 AM
Oh, one more twist. And I know I'm going to hear flack for this. But I didn't know what I was doing!

After I heard about them sleeping together, I asked her if they were still seeing each other. She minimized it and said they went out on a date or two. Yeah....right. Well I read somewhere else about setting up rules for the separation and seeing other people. So I asked her about a month ago if it was alright to see other people. She obviously said yes. I didn't say it because I had somebody in particular. I just felt like we were over and I was strapped down while she was out having fun.

I'm guessing she might use that as a rebuttal to my letter. Is that something I should be concerned about, or am I overthinking it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by Barbie631
Hello, I haven't told my story yet, but will very soon. So does this mean that for a woman that it may be easier to win back a husband with plan B. I'm in plan B now. What's the difference?

Plan B is not designed to win a spouse back. It doesn't do that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 03:45 AM
Agent, I would expose to the workplace. And I would move in FIRST and then expose the affair.

I don't think you should repeat the tall tales your wife told others because it will make you look defensive.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
I just imagine she will deny everything to her friends and family after my letter, and certainly minimize their relationshi

One thing you can do is upload all your evidence, pictures, emails, etc, to a webpage and send out that link when you expose.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 04:07 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
. So I asked her about a month ago if it was alright to see other people. She obviously said yes. I didn't say it because I had somebody in particular. I just felt like we were over and I was strapped down while she was out having fun.

I wouldn't bring this up. Considering it is very different from doing it.
Posted By: markos Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
Oh, one more twist. And I know I'm going to hear flack for this. But I didn't know what I was doing!

After I heard about them sleeping together, I asked her if they were still seeing each other. She minimized it and said they went out on a date or two. Yeah....right. Well I read somewhere else about setting up rules for the separation and seeing other people. So I asked her about a month ago if it was alright to see other people. She obviously said yes. I didn't say it because I had somebody in particular. I just felt like we were over and I was strapped down while she was out having fun.

I'm guessing she might use that as a rebuttal to my letter. Is that something I should be concerned about, or am I overthinking it?

You aren't challenging her to a debate, so don't worry about "rebuttal." There's no debate to win with her, here. She can say whatever she wants to say. She will go ape and say all kinds of nasty things. Some people will rise to support you, and some people will prove themselves unworthy of your future friendship.

Get ready for a nasty, wild ride.

Oh, and, btw, people shouldn't date when they are married. But we can talk about that later if needed when you aren't in crisis mode and we have time to bring up hypotheticals.

Welcome again to Marriage Builders.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 05:05 AM
Welcome to MB.

When can you move back in?

Men Do Not Leave Your Home
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by AgentS
I just imagine she will deny everything to her friends and family after my letter, and certainly minimize their relationshi

One thing you can do is upload all your evidence, pictures, emails, etc, to a webpage and send out that link when you expose.

I'm not sure how strong my hard evidence is. I have a few flirty messages from her to him. She says she will miss him, tells him he's cute, asks him about the number of women he's been with, and refers to intense emails at 4AM. But I don't have that 4AM email (and then asking if that was a 1 time thing, or if that'll continue). All appropriate talk with a coworker, right? Lol. I also have the email from the person I found out from (the GF of the OM), explaining to me that they have an "inappropriate relationship" at work. Then, in my WW's letter to me saying she doesn't want to try, she says something like "I'm sorry I was open to getting to know somebody else. I will forever regret the way you found out." But primarily, their relationship has been discussed verbally when she admitted to kissing him. I also learned about them sleeping together from the GF (via phone call again). OM has a big mouth and admits a lot, although WW has since yelled at OM and he's now shut his mouth. I have a few more things, but that's the gist. Is that sufficient?

Oh, one more source of evidence. And yes, I contacted a lawyer first to see if it was legal in my state. But I have been recording a lot of conversations between me and WW. Whether phone conversations or face-to-face conversations. She has no idea of any of these recordings, so I feel that using them against her will do more long term damage. But those are where I confront her and she admits to kissing him and tells me she's confused and misses me, the girls, and him.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Welcome to MB.

When can you move back in?

Men Do Not Leave Your Home

There are no court orders or anything stopping me from moving back in. Just my previous hesitation about being able to pay the bills on my own. But ML has clarified that for me. I'm going to be away for part of this weekend, so I think when we exchange on Sunday I will tell her that I'm moving back in full time.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Welcome to MB.

When can you move back in?

Men Do Not Leave Your Home

There are no court orders or anything stopping me from moving back in. Just my previous hesitation about being able to pay the bills on my own. But ML has clarified that for me. I'm going to be away for part of this weekend, so I think when we exchange on Sunday I will tell her that I'm moving back in full time.

Another question regarding this. We have outlined a schedule of who has the girls. Am I assuming that ends when I move back in? Or does she get to still take them on "her days"? I will be contacting a lawyer tomorrow to find out the legal rights she has for taking them overnight, etc. But what is everyone's opinion here? Am I trying to keep them at the house 100% of the time and tell her she can visit if she doesn't want to move back in? She doesn't have her own place, and she stays with friends, and I'm sure OM.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
Originally Posted by AgentS
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Welcome to MB.

When can you move back in?

Men Do Not Leave Your Home

There are no court orders or anything stopping me from moving back in. Just my previous hesitation about being able to pay the bills on my own. But ML has clarified that for me. I'm going to be away for part of this weekend, so I think when we exchange on Sunday I will tell her that I'm moving back in full time.

Another question regarding this. We have outlined a schedule of who has the girls. Am I assuming that ends when I move back in? Or does she get to still take them on "her days"? I will be contacting a lawyer tomorrow to find out the legal rights she has for taking them overnight, etc. But what is everyone's opinion here? Am I trying to keep them at the house 100% of the time and tell her she can visit if she doesn't want to move back in? She doesn't have her own place, and she stays with friends, and I'm sure OM.
I wouldn't tell her ahead of time you're moving back in. I would just move in. "Hi honey, I'm home"

Also your evidence is way strong. We've had BS with less proof than you have.

I would keep the girls at home as much as possible. This is their home and you don't want to have the children more stressed than they already are. Protect your children with a father's fierce heart. I thought you keep the girls at home and you two rotate through? So if she wants time with your DDS she can be at the home with you and the girls, fantastic Plan A opportunities. Also do WHATEVER you can to keep her from bringing OM around the girls.

Have you done a background check on OM?
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I wouldn't tell her ahead of time you're moving back in. I would just move in. "Hi honey, I'm home"

Also your evidence is way strong. We've had BS with less proof than you have.

I would keep the girls at home as much as possible. This is their home and you don't want to have the children more stressed than they already are. Protect your children with a father's fierce heart. I thought you keep the girls at home and you two rotate through? So if she wants time with your DDS she can be at the home with you and the girls, fantastic Plan A opportunities. Also do WHATEVER you can to keep her from bringing OM around the girls.

Have you done a background check on OM?

I was going to tell her on Sunday, when I pick the girls up, and she usually leaves that I'm staying there full time from that day forward. You don't think I should do it that way? Are you saying I should do it on a day that she has the girls and isn't expecting me? She will obviously want to have a talk about it right then and there. If she asks me why I'm moving back in, do I say that I want to work ont he marriage? Or do I just say that I'm sick of living back and forth and I want to be with the girls full time? Sorry for so many questions, but I clearly need guidance!

I have not done a full background check, but I work in a courthouse and checked if he had any felonies, etc. Nothing besides careless driving, driving with revoke license, etc. BUT, his ex-GF told me that he was abusive (physically and emotionally) to his previous ex-wife. I also know this guy was a crack addict and is currently in recovery. Basically the complete opposite of me.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 01:43 PM
Agent, I would move back home as soon as you can. Don't forewarn her, just show up with your bags and move right into your bedroom. Tell her you are moving home because it is your home and you have no reason to move out. Explain that you made a mistake leaving your home and your children and won't do it again.

She may call the police. If the police come just explain that this is your home and you are not causing any trouble but you are not going anywhere unless it is by court order. They can't force you to leave your home.

Be SURE to carry a VAR in your pocked in case she plays the domestic violence card.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 03:51 PM
What's a VAR?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 04:30 PM
Voice Activated Recorder
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 06:51 PM
My VAR is my cell, so I always have it on me.

So what should I be recording? The conversation we have when I move back in? And I would only play it for the police if she claims DV?

I've said this before, I can't begin to thank you all for your help and guidance. It means the world to me!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/15/13 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
My VAR is my cell, so I always have it on me.

So what should I be recording? The conversation we have when I move back in? And I would only play it for the police if she claims DV?

You've got it!!
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/16/13 07:20 PM
I have another question about exposure. Does exposing reduce or ruin the chances of us having a civil or "good" relationship if we end up getting a D? My parents are divorced, and it was pretty bitter. I don't want that same thing. It's just not a fun way to live, and also not healthy for our girls.

I'm not saying I'm not going to expose. But let's be honest, I'm headed in the direction of D, and I just want to understand all the ripple effects this will have.

BTW, I'm moving back in Saturday evening. I'm going away during Saturday day, and then I'm showing up and telling here I'm there to stay. Should be interesting!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/17/13 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
I have another question about exposure. Does exposing reduce or ruin the chances of us having a civil or "good" relationship if we end up getting a D? My parents are divorced, and it was pretty bitter. I don't want that same thing. It's just not a fun way to live, and also not healthy for our girls.

You WILL have the same thing regardless of whether you expose or not. Having an "amicable" divorce is a mythological construct that does not exist. It is about as realistic as "soul-mates." If you could be "amicable" you wouldn't be getting divorced i the first place. Divorced people are bitter because of the reasons they divorced. If you get divorced, you won't want to be "friends" with someone who lies and cheats and put you such hell.

A better plan for after divorce is "parallel parenting." That means that you never speak to her again. All communication comes through a 3rd party. THAT arrangement is much better for both parents and especially the children
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/17/13 12:11 AM
Here you go. Parallel Parenting
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/18/13 10:20 PM
So I just told WW an hour ago that I'm moving back in effective immediately and she is NOT HAPPY. I completely expected that. She's saying stuff like "we have discussed everything first, and now you're just surprising me with this? I thought we were going to work things out without lawyers, but I guess not. This is just going to speed up the D process".

She also attacked me personally saying stuff like "this is just your old, controlling self coming out again. I knew you didn't change."

I'm assuming (and hope) this is all normal and it will cool down?

She also said, because it was supposed to be her night with the girls, that she wants to bring them to her parents house for the night and bring them back here tomorrow. They live in another state (an hour away). I said I didn't want her to take the girls. That just made her even more pi$$ed! Am I right for saying no? Or am I just adding fuel to the fire by "being controlling"?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/18/13 10:41 PM
AgentS, it's a pity that you forewarned her about your intentions to move back home. Much better to simply walk in, set your bags down and sing out "Honey, I'm home! Where are my girls! Daddy's home!"

Tell her that you are home, where you belong. Sir, it is YOUR HOUSE. She'll probably start blabbing about "her" time - let her know that you've thought about that, and realize your folly in agreeing to such an arrangement. Tell her she's welcome to have quality time with the girls by running a nice bubble bath for them before bed time.

Offer to make dinner while she's helping the kids in their bath.

The answer to your question is "yes" - her response is normal. You've screwed with her fuzzy, happy little wayward world. While you're not home, she's a swingin' single gal with a couple of kids who are only minor inconveniences to her fantasy and no husband to 'drag her down.' You're throwing a dash of reality into that fantasy and she's not going to like that.

Know that and proceed calmly to reclaim your rightful place in your own home.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/18/13 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
AgentS, it's a pity that you forewarned her about your intentions to move back home. Much better to simply walk in, set your bags down and sing out "Honey, I'm home! Where are my girls! Daddy's home!"

Tell her that you are home, where you belong. Sir, it is YOUR HOUSE. She'll probably start blabbing about "her" time - let her know that you've thought about that, and realize your folly in agreeing to such an arrangement. Tell her she's welcome to have quality time with the girls by running a nice bubble bath for them before bed time.

Offer to make dinner while she's helping the kids in their bath.

The answer to your question is "yes" - her response is normal. You've screwed with her fuzzy, happy little wayward world. While you're not home, she's a swingin' single gal with a couple of kids who are only minor inconveniences to her fantasy and no husband to 'drag her down.' You're throwing a dash of reality into that fantasy and she's not going to like that.

Know that and proceed calmly to reclaim your rightful place in your own home.

Bliss, thank you for the response. I did come in, put my stuff down and told her I'm here to stay. She told me that's not something we discusssd of agreed to, and I said almost exactly what you said. That I was wrong for agreeing to such an arrangement. I told her if was my home, and I was going go be home and be with the girls. She asked in a sarcastic manner if this was a way for me to try to "win her back". I told her this decision had nothing to do with her and everything to do with me being home and with the kids.

She did tell me that she has loved the "freedom" she has felt since our separation, so I really don't think R is in the cards.

But I feel much better about that today after our talk, because I deserve somebody so much better than the way she treats me. She only focuses on any negative things about me, or what she perceives to be negative. I love myself today because I know I'm an awesome dude with a great heart. She doesn't see that part of me, and that's just disrespectful.

I miss my old wife, but that person "died" some time back.

I just fear that me refusing to let her go to her parents is only pissing her off where it might diminish any chance of an amicable D.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/18/13 11:14 PM
Oh, and we haven't slept in the same bed in a long time because of my snoring. (I'm sure that didn't help us). But she knows I've been sleeping in the master since we've separated. Do I still sleep in the master even though that's not the way it was prior to the separation?

I think she would have a heart attack!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/18/13 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
Oh, and we haven't slept in the same bed in a long time because of my snoring. (I'm sure that didn't help us). But she knows I've been sleeping in the master since we've separated. Do I still sleep in the master even though that's not the way it was prior to the separation?

I think she would have a heart attack!
hurray
I'd move right back into the marital bed, let her sleep in the spare if she so chooses.

Good job for throwing a wrench into her "freedom". Now get ready for some fantastic Plan A.

What were her complaints about you before the affair?
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by AgentS
Oh, and we haven't slept in the same bed in a long time because of my snoring. (I'm sure that didn't help us). But she knows I've been sleeping in the master since we've separated. Do I still sleep in the master even though that's not the way it was prior to the separation?

I think she would have a heart attack!
hurray
I'd move right back into the marital bed, let her sleep in the spare if she so chooses.

Good job for throwing a wrench into her "freedom". Now get ready for some fantastic Plan A.

What were her complaints about you before the affair?

Her complaints were that I was controlling. I was a pessimist and had a temper sometimes. I can honestly say I'm a completely different person. I read about the 180 a few months ago and started trying to focus on changing the things about myself I wasn't happy about. I've been successful smile

But she was talking about how much she has loved her freedom since we've separated. Maybe I'm wrong, but she sounds too far gone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
[

I just fear that me refusing to let her go to her parents is only pissing her off where it might diminish any chance of an amicable D.

Bravo for moving back home!! hurray

Divorces are not "amicable," so that is an oxymoron. Don't worry about it.

You did great! I agree you shouldn't let her take off with the kids. She probably had a plan to go stay with the OM and was using the visit as a cover.

Just do the right thing and don't fight with her. You are doing great.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:12 AM
She sounds like every other typical Wayward.

Do not let her take your girls anywhere. Tell her "we are trying to keep the stress as least amount on the girls and keeping them home is for them". DO NOT FIGHT WITH HER.

Have you exposed this yet?

Have you read Love Busters? About Your anger, when's the last AO (angry outburst) you've had?

Her saying you're controlling is probably about the AO.

So what are you going to do if you feel one coming on?

Also, what are her top ENs?

Take advantage of being at home with her to show her your changes.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
[
Her complaints were that I was controlling. I was a pessimist and had a temper sometimes. I can honestly say I'm a completely different person. I read about the 180 a few months ago and started trying to focus on changing the things about myself I wasn't happy about. I've been successful smile

But she was talking about how much she has loved her freedom since we've separated. Maybe I'm wrong, but she sounds too far gone.

She doesn't sound too far gone to us. You can't go by anything she says right now because she is high on the fumes of the affair. Her affair has the same effect as CRACK COCAINE or alcohol.

Ok, what day are you launching the exposure nuke? Do you have your exposure plans all ready?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:18 AM
Agent, you want to PROMISE her that there will be no "amicable" divorce. See, she has this fantasy where you will roll over like a dead man and she easily replaces you with the OM. Do you want to cooperate with that? Do you want to contribute to your own demise and HELP THE OM?

I would hope not!!

So tell her there will be no "amicable" divorce and that hell is coming her way if she pursues the divorce. Let her know you will be counter suing on grounds of adultery and will have the OM dragged into court and forced to give sworn testimony under oath about the affair. [tell her this after you expose]

And most importantly, tell her you will not be her "friend" if this goes to divorce. Just watch her eyes get BIG when you tell her that!! That will WRECK her little divorce fantasy of having you roll over like a wimp while she sticks it to you.

You need to burst her fantasy and paint a very dark picture of her future if she pursues divorce. But just get your exposures done FIRST so she is not denying the affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:34 AM
Also, tell her NOW that the "separation" is over. If she leaves for the night, you will just consider that she is out committing adultery and you will document her movements for any potential divorce actions. I would DEMAND that she end her affair immediately.

Get a GPS on her car asap. This looks like a good one at Walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/21607563?...6607510&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 12:39 AM
Or you can get zoombak at Radio Shack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=13089009
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by AgentS
Oh, and we haven't slept in the same bed in a long time because of my snoring. (I'm sure that didn't help us). But she knows I've been sleeping in the master since we've separated. Do I still sleep in the master even though that's not the way it was prior to the separation?

I think she would have a heart attack!
You need to get your butt back into your marital bed. Have you tried anything to help with your snoring? My husband is a veteran snorer. Breathe Strips have helped tremendously. Investigate a CPAC machine as well.

She's not going to have a heart attack.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 02:14 AM
Quote
She did tell me that she has loved the "freedom" she has felt since our separation, so I really don't think R is in the cards.
This is normal wayward babble. Ignore this. That's what I told you earlier: she's living the life of a swingin' single gal, with no one to answer to or deal with other than her entitled self.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 02:19 AM
Agent, understand that you are now in position to Plan A. She will probably make noise and huff and puff. That's fine. Stay calm and stable. Help take care of the kids. Go over and beyond what you did before - bathe the kids and put them to bed. Make dinner, if she's agreeable. Or order in. In other words, meet her needs as much as she will let you.

Don't you DARE sleep on the couch. If she doesn't want to sleep with you, let her figure out her sleeping arrangements.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 02:31 AM
Your getting good advice please follow it. All waywards no matter race, creed, religion all follow the same script and vets know this and will give you AWESOME advice and information.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 03:13 PM
I would not be surprised if she files for D tomorrow. She is giving me attitude, but I'm staying positive, being in a good mood, enjoying the kids, etc. You have all given me a lot of strength and reassurance, so thank you.

Melody, is putting GPS on her car, without her knowing, legal?

Oh, another complaint of hers in the marriage was that we were too routine. She was obviously bored, and an affair is just the excitement she wanted! Routine stuff is hard for me to change right now because she wants nothing to do with me and wants to spend no time together. So I can't force her to go to a park, zoo, etc.

Lastly, should I ask her if she denies sleeping with him? During one of our talks last night, I told her I knew they slept together. She responded with "where are you getting your info from?" I didn't answer her, and just continued to say what I was saying. I know bringing it up isn't ideal, but I would love to record it for concrete evidence.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 05/19/13 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
I would not be surprised if she files for D tomorrow. She is giving me attitude, but I'm staying positive, being in a good mood, enjoying the kids, etc. You have all given me a lot of strength and reassurance, so thank you.

Melody, is putting GPS on her car, without her knowing, legal?

I have no idea but I seriously doubt it. If you are her husband you have a right to know where your car is. I think most people are more concerned about where their car is located.

Quote
Lastly, should I ask her if she denies sleeping with him? During one of our talks last night, I told her I knew they slept together. She responded with "where are you getting your info from?" I didn't answer her, and just continued to say what I was saying. I know bringing it up isn't ideal, but I would love to record it for concrete evidence.

I wouldn't fight about that. There is no reason to bring it up again because you know she will lie about it. Did you tell her what I told you about countersuing on grounds of adultery?
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 06/15/13 02:39 PM
Ok, so it's been a few weeks since I updated my status. I moved back in that weekend and she was obviously not happy at all! She never saw me mad, negative, or anything like that, but she was/is very uncomfortable. That's besides the point, b/c I don't want to R anymore. Moving back in changed it for me.

To be honest, I read a post about "Just Letting Go", and it mentioned letting go of people that don't value or respect you. I read that a while ago, but that hit me in a completely different light after I moved back in. While we were away, I only focused on the good times. Hence, why I missed her. She told me she was reminded of all the bad times. She brought up something that happened 12 years ago...waaaaay before we were married. I'm sorry, but I'm not that bad of a person where I deserve that. I deserve somebody so much better than her. I now don't value or respect her.

And so I lost all my feelings. And now, if she had an epiphany that she screwed up and wants to work it out, I wouldn't. So we tried working it out w/o lawyers (to keep the cost down), but I guess she changed her mind because she told me a week ago that she retained a lawyer. Now I have done the same.

So she is still involved with this low-life. He is a recovering addict (crack or heroin, I can't remember). On top of that, his ex-GF told me that he is divorced because he was emotionally and physically abusive to his ex-wife. This is a dirtbag that I DO NOT want around my girls. So my question is, do I still expose to try to break them up? She admitted that she hasn't told anybody in her life about him because "I tell them what I want to tell them". Or is it pointless at this point? As I mentioned, I don't care what she gets herself into. I just don't want my girls around him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 06/15/13 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
This is a dirtbag that I DO NOT want around my girls. So my question is, do I still expose to try to break them up? She admitted that she hasn't told anybody in her life about him because "I tell them what I want to tell them". Or is it pointless at this point? As I mentioned, I don't care what she gets herself into. I just don't want my girls around him.

YES. And contact your attorney immediately and have him put it in your custody papers that your daughters not be exposed to her adultery partners. I would also run a background check on the OM.

You should expose the affair to everyone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 06/15/13 03:00 PM
Also, "losing your feelings" is not really a good reason to give up. You are certainly within your rights to give up, but lost feelings can be found again. If you choose to give up, no one would fault you.
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 06/15/13 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by AgentS
This is a dirtbag that I DO NOT want around my girls. So my question is, do I still expose to try to break them up? She admitted that she hasn't told anybody in her life about him because "I tell them what I want to tell them". Or is it pointless at this point? As I mentioned, I don't care what she gets herself into. I just don't want my girls around him.

YES. And contact your attorney immediately and have him put it in your custody papers that your daughters not be exposed to her adultery partners. I would also run a background check on the OM.

You should expose the affair to everyone.

I work in the courthouse, so I have checked what I can. Aside from a lot of motor vehicle issues (Careless Driving, etc), he has no felonies.

So if I expose, the gist of the letter is usually to ask the family & friends to ask them to urge W (and OM) to stop seeing each other so my marriage can be saved. Even though that's not what I want, do I say the same thing? Basically I would pretend to want to R?
Posted By: AgentS Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 06/15/13 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Also, "losing your feelings" is not really a good reason to give up. You are certainly within your rights to give up, but lost feelings can be found again. If you choose to give up, no one would fault you.

I don't want to R anymore because I have zero respect for her on so many levels. She wants this D mostly because of me. But the other part is that she doesn't want to be a full time mother. I have zero respect for that. Plus, she is fake to me and I would never trust whether she is being genuine or whether she's putting on a mask again. I don't want to live like that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Worth Doing Plan B? - 06/15/13 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by AgentS
[
So if I expose, the gist of the letter is usually to ask the family & friends to ask them to urge W (and OM) to stop seeing each other so my marriage can be saved. Even though that's not what I want, do I say the same thing? Basically I would pretend to want to R?

No, the purpose of exposure is to expose, not to necessarily save your marriage. All you do is change the letters to inform them of the affair and ------------most importantly----------> that your marriage broke up because of the affair.
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