Describing in nice terms, my wife cheated and lied. Now she is the victim? I was called an abuser and now a cheater? Something wrong with the picture.

This is my side of the story.

As friends, she flirted all the time with me. We ended up kissing without being yet in a formal relationship, although was a really close friendship. I read a letter she wrote to a friend, describing who would become OM as her blue prince and ideal man and describing me as her best friend. That was the start of the heart breakings. I had thought she considered me more. I withdrew from our friendship.

Then, she started calling me more. I thought her heart opened to me. We got closer, but then, OM asked her out and she went ahead and chose him and dated him. I withdrew again, and started getting closer to my ex.

She was out of my picture, but after three months, she saw me with my ex, and started calling me again. We became friends again, and started dating.

We had a class project the next day and we met in OM's house. She arrived earlier, and her jacket was on his bed. I asked her about it. Up to this day, I think she had something with him that day, the first day of us being boyfriends, although her story is that it was that she arrived minutes early that day due to their breaking up topic. So, why didn't she break up over the phone? Who goes to a man's room to break up?

So, I let it go. In the years of our dating, everytime he was around us, she gets nervous, and after he left, she acted different, was not talkative. Obviously she had feelings. I ignored that.

So, we married. 2 years into marriage, we run into him and his girlfriend in the movies. My wife is nervous as always, and we get home, and starts cleaning the house without talking much. Okay, so I let it go.

4 years into marriage, I find she googled him, and was trying to get in touch with him. She justified that with my contact with my ex. She was infatuated with her ex, while my relationship with my ex was that of siblings relationship, someone I met since pre-k. No comparison.

Then, 6 years into marriage, She starts picking up fights, and one day, she plainly says I dont love you anymore. She leaves the country with her ex.

I call her, she admits she had been in chat contact and then traveled with him, nothing else came out of her mouth. She wouldn't talk about her past. I wanted to be with her, so I did not want to admit it it had been more and did not want to know, so I did not read thieir chat. I did forgive her for having chatted with him and having planned a trip with him, but in no way did I ever think she had gone into a full affair with him. We set rules to our new life, we kept a journal track to keep improving. She promised to never chat with him again and we start a relationship. She gave me her passwords, I install spywares, cameras, until, We gradually build our relationship.

4 years into that, we visit her sister. Her sister's vibe triggered me, so I wanted to know what my wife and OM had chatted about in the past. What?!!!!!! She had declared her love to him, dedicated a song to him, planned her leaving me with him, revealed all our marriage secrets, problems. She had been in chat for 5 months. She met three times with him. She had ended the affair by telling him he was her platonic love, that was her ideal man but had a commitment with me and would restart over with me. I was ignorant of this. what kind of closure is that? if that is even a closure.

one year past that, Okay, I did not handle it well the first year, she contacted MB and I get accused of being an abuser. We start working over reasonable concepts. Then, she demands more and more, she starts snooping around, while she was the unfaithful one. Its annoying.

Conclusion: I married a wife who has a platonic love with OM, always has been infatuated with him from the start of our relationship, and even if she is not in contact with him, he has always been in her heart. So, why did she marry me? Why did she get back with me? And I am trying to work things out, she is advised by MB to snoop on me?

Which thread is your wife's?

I'm sorry; I forgot my calculator. So, can you be a little less obtuse about how long you have been married and how long ago these events occurred.

Platonic love and infatuation are at opposite ends of the spectrum, BTW.

This is newcase's H. I recognize the story.

Welcome to MB, sir.

The reason I went through all the detail is to display how she has been infatuated with this man from the start of our relationship, events which I was blinded from.

Actually, wife's display name was FSadSoul.

Hi PC, welcome to Marriage Builders. In what ways does your wife feel you are abusing her?

I was not abusing her. My wife felt she was abused because she was told so.

I did have a bit of a temper before the affair and we did have issues with my behavior, but I had changed already.

After I read the e-mails, I had a disconnect in my brain. The pain struck me hard. Her, out of all the people in the world? People saw her as saint, little more gave her wings. Her true identity came as raining rocks.

I did not abuse her. I was only dealing with my pain. But, okay, maybe it wasn't the best way, and I did realize that and change again, and started working things out. She called me a controller, I changed. She called me a manipulator, I changed. She said I wasn't completing her needs, I changed. She said I was always insulting her, I changed.

My real pain is that no matter what, I never had closure and will never be able to have closure. She took that away. She made a closure alone, if telling him he is the most wonderful man in the world can even be considered a closure. Yet, while I try to deal with my pain and create a relationship, she is snooping around my things.

You don't need 'closure' you need the no contact letter as outlined in SAA.

I'm not sure if his WW has sent the NC letter or not, good question.

But the behavior your wife has described here I would consider abusive.

Also the fact that she has had an affair 5 years ago does not give you an excuse to refuse to be transparent/accountable with her.

That is exactly my point.

I can't have the no contact letter as outlined, where she would mention the pain she caused, she would mention the respect she would show me.

Even her "no contact letter" was based on lies, telling him that I knew, while I didn't, telling him her parent knew, while they had no no idea. She wanted him out now to eliminate all evidence and still play the saint role and get back with me only to keep me from telling her parents about the chat, and keep that image she had in front of her parents.

Obviously, I was never meant to read the letter.

I have work to do. But before returning, because I am very busy, my wife is seeking advise from here, and her last advise is getting her paranoid and us further away. I am not having an affair, did not have an affair, will never have an affair, and my chat conversations with my ex were because of the pain she caused, I needed support, not affair based chats. I temporarily have given my ex up, but yes, I still have all her contact information. My ex is my friend, like a sister to me. My wife cheats, and I have to give up my friends now.

PC, your closure would come in the form of a happy and fulfilling marriage with extraordinary precautions. That can be your future if you follow the plan here. It's worked for multitudes, and it can work for you. If your wife has not followed the plan and sent her OM a no contact letter, then make sure she does that. She seems open to the plan, and if she follows it, it will make you feel safe again.

Our philosophy here is that any former lovers are a very serious threat to your marriage, and so both of you should end all contact with former lovers.

I think you can see how continued contact with a former lover led your wife right into an affair. You are not any safer continuing to contact your former lover, even if you feel like you could never do such a thing. It also seems to be hurting your wife that you continue to contact this woman and hide your contact with her from your wife.

You are playing with fire.

Pro Choice opposite sex friendships can play no part in a marriage. Yes that includes ex's who are like sisters. This is where affairs start when someone else starts meeting emotional needs who is not your spouse.

You shouldn't have had this friendship with your ex to begin with.

Dr Harley does not support opposite sex friendships in marriage.

So, will you end all contact with your girlfriend and give your wife all your passwords? And will you give her access to all your devices?

Is she welcome to check up on you, whenever and however she wants?

Are you going to start following the MB plan, and start building a life of complete transparency and romance with your wife? Are you going to meet her emotional needs? Are you going to take her out on dates?

Are you committed to never disrespecting her, never having an angry outburts, and never making another demand?

You are leading a secret second life. If you will not provide full transparency to your wife, and if you will not commit to protecting her and caring for her, then you are dangerous for her.

Prochoice,

If you are here to try to solve problems that are in the past and complain about your wife's behaviour in the past, you will never be happy.

On the other hand, you will be happy, if you are looking to improve your marriage from this day on, you can indeed have a happy marriage. To achieve that, it is neccesary to change the things that have contributed to past problems.

Your behaviour towards her is a recipe to make you look bad and marriage with you a difficult life. If you keep grilling her about the past that is a surefire way to keep the OM alive in her head and, compared to your behaviour, probably looking good.

Nothing in your wife's posts gives the impression that she does not see her role in your past problems. But you seem to minimize your role in the demise of your relationship.

Dangerous? I have always protected her, maybe not the right way, but I did care and love her deeply. So we did have some episodes of violence, but it was never towards her. I did acknowledge my wrongs and apologize to her, yet, she still left.

I do want to reconstruct our lives. I do have to admit most advises were positive, and have been helpful personally, but last ones havent been. Love should be based on trust. That is why I stopped snooping on her stuff. Then, why is she snooping on me? It is deviating from the main issue, her affair.

Love is NOT based on BLIND trust. Love is based on trust that is EARNED. You have not EARNED trust. You have not given her reason NOT to snoop.

PC,

Trust is earned. It's based on experience.

If what your wife is saying about hidden bank accounts and contact with other women and friends discussing the problems of your marriage is true, I would not trust you and I do not think she should either. I can certainly understand why you would have issues trusting her given what has happened, but that's not a license to do whatever you like to her.

Your wife left, but she also came back. Many, many men in your situation never get that second chance.

The main issue is whether you want to actually move forward and rebuild your marriage or not. You are not behaving like someone who wants to save their marriage and this is why we have advised your wife to be wary of you.

An apology does not erase violence or angry outbursts. It doesn't make you a safe person.



That is folk wisdom that has nothing to do with love. You should both be snooping on each other to make sure your marriage is safe. Snooping creates TRUST when the other spouse can see what you are doing when you think she is not looking.

It is a not a lack of trust that ruins marriages but a lack of boundaries.

Have you eliminated all anger?

Anger Management 101

Would you please answer my questions?

Yes, the answer to all the questions Prisca and brainhurts are yes, except the passwords. She can have acess when she wants, but I cant give her my passwords, I have a business to carry.

The reason I hadnt told her about my second business and account is not affair related, but actually financial stability and protection. I am remodeling the house, and have made investments. She would have opposed and been an obstacle. I am creating a better financial future for us.

The online dating I did in the past, that was just distraction to forget about her affair. When my wife asked to eliminate the accounts, I did.

As opposed to my wife's chat with her ex, that was sickening love exchange letters, my chat with my ex in the past was support to overcome my wife's lies and betrayal. The minute my wife asked me to stop contacting my ex, I did.

If my wife would analyze carefully the recent text, she would realize that my ex was the one trying to contact me and coincidently, my wife was holding my phone that minute. I would have told her. Wife asked me to end the communication again, I did.

And the reason I can't currently tell her what bothers me now is that she cries out of everything rather than talk.

I have no further comments. She is free to chose between following marriage builders and leave or restart our relationship, and we can talk about all the advises that can be applied to us. It would be of deep sorrow if she decides to leave, and she chooses to include our parents in our problems. Our daughters would be the ones who suffer the most and I do enjoy my wife's company.

PC, if your marriage fails, it will be because of your approach to marriage described above. You hide passwords from her [huge red flag!], engage in online dating, and make financial decisions without her input. I don't see much hope here unless you change those practices.

Do you want to lose your marriage?

Good grief. She is not a child. She is, or should be, an equal partner in your marriage.

First: you do not know that she would have opposed and been an obstacle to your financial wishes, because you did not ask her.

Second: if she did oppose them, then you had no right to make them. Once again: she should be an equal partner in your marriage. She must be having a rotten time being married to you if that is the way you treat her.

How dare you tell her that she has no right to make financial decisions equally with you!

Hogwash.

You're not safe for her.

That money is hers in law and when her divorce lawyer finds out you've been defrauding her and hiding money in the marriage, you are toast.

If you read Dr Hs why women leave men article, women are more likely to put up with physical abuse than having their decisions about the future ignored.

She is a grown woman who will divorce you and find a real partner she can make decisions with.

You can tell your own lawyer that it was a better financial move. No one will care and the divorce bill and cost of a second home will wipe out most of the profits.

Then it really isn't love because your wife cannot trust you.

Why is everyone so fast to judge? Why does everyone attack? I never said the money was for me. I did it for us. This is exactly why I never wanted to post for a start. Who said we are divorcing? We are dating real well.

I want to live a happy marriage, but our present has a past. I hadnt been thinking about her affair for a while until she started snooping and I started posting, so this advise isnt working.

Isnt this manipulation. I either give her my passwords, even though I was the betrayed spouse, or she once again ends our marriage?

I will give her access, all access, when she wants, although its unfair, only to move on with our lives. Maybe there are people who still keep their passwords who arent cheaters. Maybe when I told her it was my ex who was trying to contact me was true and not me to my ex, maybe my intentipns for my business was done with great desire to give my wife a better home.

I am displayed as a monster here, while in truth, I had my wrongs, and I admit it, and admit did not treat her good before, but she got her revenge 100x more. I would have rather she had stabbed me than betrayed me.

PC,

The thing is that your secret second life, although it was financial and not sexual, is still something that should not exist in an honest relationship.

Gamma

The secret second life with his ex was not "financial".

It's called MARRIAGE. A marriage will thrive when there is transparency for BOTH spouses.

It is not an attack on you to tell you that your wife deserves to have transparency from you. It is not an attack on you to tell you that unless you give her transparency, you are a danger to her.

Your reasons don't matter, even if they were honorable. Secrets are marriage killers.

You know, when I suspected my betrayed husband of being up to something, and I started snooping on him, he didn't whine about how it wasn't fair. Or how HE was the betrayed, and didn't owe me, or how he hadn't thought of my affair until I started snooping. He didn't complain at all when he found out, but instead he went out of his way to allow me to see what he was doing. He was even willing to take a polygraph. You see, he wasn't up to anything and was eager to put my mind at ease.

Contrast that with my reaction when I caught him snooping on me 5 years ago. I was having an affair, and I blew up at him, belittled him, and tried to chase him off for having the audacity to invade my privacy.

The guilty are the ones who have a problem with snooping. If you don't have anything to hide, you won't have a problem with your wife looking in on you.

What are you hiding?
So she now has your passwords?
Is she welcomed to check up on you anytime she wants, any way she wants?

You're not entitled to a secret second life just because she cheated first.

What would be wrong with that? That sounds like a recipe for a good marriage, to me.

Why shouldn't she end her marriage to you if you are not letting her verify your behavior? You said a marriage should be based on trust. Trust is a feeling that YOU have to create for her. She feels what she feels - you control that by your behavior.

Act trustworthily for long enough, and she will feel trust. Continue to declare parts of your life off limits, and she will not feel trust.

Do you want her to trust you, or not? It's in your hands.

From my point of view, when a husband or wife keeps part of their life secret from the other, they are ending the marriage.

Your present has your EX in it.


You're not following the advice. It doesn't work when it isn't followed.

When I think about my wife's affair, I simply don't bring it up. That's Dr. Harley's advice and it works well and has led to us having a happy marriage.

If my wife were doing something in the present that allowed her to have a secret second life, I would not tolerate it. I would complain loudly, and I would investigate, and I would reveal everything I found far and wide to everybody she and I hold dear.

Consider this from your spouse's point of view. Would you think that was a good reason if she hid things from you "because you would oppose what she wanted?" How would you feel if, when you found out, she said "I have every right to hide this from you because I believe it is for your own good?"

You may feel what you did is "right" but even if you can justify it in your own mind, who would want to be married to someone who felt it was okay to hide things from them because they "were an obstacle?"

Have you read up on policy of joint agreement on this site? If you don't do anything that you both don't enthusiastically agree to then you would not hide money from her but she also would not spend it on anything you didn't agree to. It's not easy, my spouse and I are still learning how to do it, but when we do it successfully we feel closer and safe with each other and we are both happy, instead of frustrated and resentful and feeling like we have no control over the situation.

I understand she had an affair in the past and you're resentful. But if you are going to use that to rationalize treating her like dirt today, what reason does she have to remain married to you other than maybe guilt?

What's done is done. If you're going to stay together, why not have a good relationship with precautions so neither of you ever does that type of thing again?

Reading your posts it sounds like you primarily want to punish her. That destroys your own chance of having a happy marriage too. How sad is that? Why not be her hero instead?

Betrayal is the most painful thing that ever happened to me so it's not like I dont sympathise. But financial infidelity was what ultimately made me divorce. Financial infidelity is not OK, because the money is not for 'us'. She doesn't even know about it! If it were really her money, she'd know about it and have a say.


I mentioned divorce because that's what I see happen over and over again when women find out about a SSL. You have two strands to yours and you're not being attacked, you're being told to clean up your side of the street.

I am ready to follow MB concepts, but my wife left me.

She has wanted to follow the concepts on this website, but I have been giving her the hardest time to do so, more of a resentful issue inside because she had cheated on me and then covered her evidence up and allowed us to continue our lives, but I am ready to let go of the past, I am sorry for my part of the problems in our marriage and for having treated her bad and I want to change that for good.

I just need her to know that. I have filled out my emotional needs questionaire carefully, and read for the first time my wife's emotional needs, and her list of examples. I hadn't fulfilled even half of those. I started reading the love busters book. I will hire help for the backyard as she first suggested, I never took her to the list of places I promised to take her, and we can go to the rollercoaster, and go skating, and even dance. I was thinking of putting some swinging couples sits in the back, so we can enjoy time there, if she agrees. I am ready for her to be my partner in all the decisions.

I know she got the advice from this site to leave me, but everything is a misunderstanding. It all started because she thought I was cheating, I never was. I used to my advantage the fact that I had been in touch with my ex to start acting secretive, but I only wanted her to see what that felt like, after she had cheated on me. I left the history profile page of my ex on purpose. If I had been cheating, I would have erased that. It took her three days to see it. I wouldn't have left it there by accident. I sent myself some e-mails too, she never even checked them, and I am glad. It was stupid, but I got mad when I was kicked out of the house due to that, called planB. The bad side is that I knew all the planA and planB theory, and I wasn't cheating, so I tried to go around it, and I said really awful things to her, none were true, and she believed them and left. I didn't mean any of that. It was immature. I would never harm her, but rather want to protect her. I am ready to restart now and follow a neutral points advice.

I know she is getting advice here, but I haven't found her new thread yet, I don't know where she is, she isn't even communicating with our babysitter, who was the intermediary in her letter, she isn't picking up her phone, she hasn't gone to school, her advisor has no clue, she even left some pending work and has a presentation tomorrow, the girls haven't gone to daycare, and the only note left was read marriage builders and do therapy. I have already scheduled therapy and I do recognize I have had some issues, and will solve them, and I am here in MB site, with full will and ready to learn. I want her back because she is a beautiful, sweet person, and I have never told her that I do love her and that I am sorry about how I have been acting. I want us to restart again.

Newcase, please call me back, or answer my e-mails, or at least talk to the babysitter, or talk to my dad. I called him and told him the truth, the real truth now. Don't talk to your mother yet. Give us a chance, the chance you wanted, I now beg for it.

ProChoice, I don't know if this can be saved. You have an enormous number of misconceptions. You seem to think that acting secretive with an ex is not cheating. I wouldn't tolerate that for an instant in my marriage, and neither would my wife.

Despite your comments about knowing Marriage Builders, I don't think you really know it much at all. You tried to punish your wife and make her feel bad and it's supposed to make her feel better for you to say that?

I do not believe you are serious about building a good marriage with your wife. If you were serious I believe you would be in contact with Dr. Harley himself right this instant, and you would be in serious anger management therapy (like in group sessions with guys straight out of jail), and you would be listening to Dr. Harley's radio show on a daily basis without fail and putting into practice everything you find there, for life. Even then I don't think you would be even slightly trustworthy until you had lived this way for a year.

And that doesn't even mention figuring out how to provide your wife openness and honesty and complete transparency for the rest of your life.

I think you are just here to manipulate her and you'll drop the act the minute you get her back.

There is no misunderstanding - we understand you completely perfectly. Prove me wrong with actions, not words.

I have seen men just like you do this a half dozen times here. I'm hoping and praying that one day I see one actually change for real, permanently.

Haven't seen it, yet.

I would love to see you do this.

I would dance with joy to see you do this.

I would call you the most awesome Marriage Builder ever if you did this.

But every man I've ever seen show up like you are doing now disappeared within 24 hours.

I would love to see you here day after day, listening to the radio show, daily, for life, putting the concepts into practice. I would love to see you win your wife back, the right way, instead of telling her things aren't so bad and telling her how to feel. I would love to see you in anger management and in contact with Dr. Harley, and building a fantastic marriage for your wife, your children, and yourself.

That would be wonderful.

I will be your biggest fan if you do this.


Then get started, and don't expect her back any time soon. Stop saying that you didn't cheat and start providing true honesty and transparency. Don't ever try to punish her again. Change for life. Commit to recovery, for life.

Figure out the Basic Concepts and start practicing them ruthlessly.

Figure out the Love Busters and get them gone, for life.

You are an abusive husband. Own up to that and fix it.

You are an unfaithful husband. Own up to that and fix it.

Many men have fixed these things before. My best mentor here was a former unfaithful husband. I learned so much from him. He is such a wonderful husband and father today.

But he showed up truly willing to learn and to act. Not just saying it. It wasn't just words.

Will you do these things?

Why shouldn't she talk to her mother?

Welcome to MB

I do not believe most of this, but let's suspend disbelief for a minute in the event that you are being honest. Though I worry like markos that you are trying to trick your wife into coming home, I am glad you are here because it at least gives you the opportunity to receive the help you actually need to fix this.

This is all fantastically stupid behavior that would run any woman off. Maybe it made sense in your head, maybe it felt good, etc. But the immaturity level of this narrative you present is off the charts.

If your wife was my sister, or a female cousin/relative, etc and she called me and told me what your wife told all of us you said to her after you broke back into the house, I would have called into work for the day and been in a car on the way to her home immediately with a loaded gun on my person in case it was needed and probably a friend or two to keep me from putting you in a wheelchair in the unfortunate event that you showed up as we left. That's how incredibly messed up it is to tell your wife in front of her own kids that it would be sad if there was an accident where they lost her mother. I hope your wife does not have brothers, and if she does, I hope for your sake they do not know where you live.

None of us want any marriage that can be saved and actually recover to end, but you have some serious work to do before she should feel safe at all around you. Therapy and anger management are probably a minimum. I don't even really know what to suggest to someone who threatens to murder his wife in front of their own children.

My wife left me, it sucks, I know. But you need to take the medicine for a bit and let it settle. You are out of control right now.

I'm serious this time. I was never really serious before and did the bare minimum.

I didn't know anything about marriage builders, that is true. I mentioned I started reading, because after calming down from her note, and after having called everywhere, I decided to go ahead and actually look at the books for the first time, and look at her emotional needs list which I had never looked at before, and actually fill it out my part, which I had refused to do before.

Do you know my wive's thread's title, or new display name?

Words.


Actions like this show you to be not serious.

Wait a second, I broke into my own house, the one I am paying for.

All the things I said were out of place and out of anger, and obviously not true. I can't believe she would even believe so. I shouldn't have said so, but I did, but those were only words, nothing true.

So stop doing the bare minimum. Are you going to do the things markos said needs to be done?

You're past the point of filling out forms now. Anybody can fill out a form. You need to be taking more serious actions.

Words of a man who does not want to protect his wife. All I see from you is justification for your behavior instead of a desire to change.

More proof that you aren't serious.


You don't have CLUE NUMBER ONE what Marriage Builders says about anger.

Dr. Harley told my wife that no marital problems could be solved until I had eliminated ALL angry outbursts. He was right.


It's still not okay! Quit trying to tell her that it's okay because you didn't mean it.

It's not okay - angry outbursts are not okay. You are a seriously dangerous, abusive husband, until you have demonstrated that you can prevent angry outbursts FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

The idea that you would ask anyone to help you get in contact with your wife today is ridiculous proof that you DO NOT GET how serious this is and how long it's going to be before you can be trusted, and that you are not serious and don't intend to do anything about it.

You could be listening to Marriage Builders Radio right now instead of wasting our time.

Markos was also paying for the house I kicked him out of. He never said such a thing, and CERTAINLY never broke back in. He went out of his way to make me safe.

You, sir, are dangerous. And you are going to have to do some serious work if you ever desire to win her back. Are you going to do the things markos said needs to be done?

That means there should be a restraining order against you, right?

Right?

Wouldn't you agree that if a wife's husband has angry outbursts and she locks him out and he breaks in, that she should get a restraining order to keep him out?

Isn't that right?

Stop freaking out. I don't know what your wife wrote you but I doubt it was "you and I are done forever no second chances". She was very reluctant to leave you.

You have a chance to fix this here and if you're actually reading the MB books you even have a set of instructions for HOW to fix this. Change into the type of husband the books describe and she will come back to you.

No quick fixes to this, ProChoice. You can't fix something like this in a day.

My wife cheated on me, lied to me about it, told horrible lies about me to her family, and filed a restraining order against me simply for doing what was required to uncover her affair.

I never threatened to kill her.

Some words (like threats to murder someone) have consequences. It's not "just words" when you threaten to kill your spouse. It's called assault.

You are very lucky you are not in jail right now. You can't say things like that.

You threaten your wife in front of your children and you can't believe she would believe you would harm her (especially on top of all the other stupidity you have displayed)? WTF is wrong with you??

As a BS, I can understand your anger and hurt over your wife's affair but you need to GET A GRIP!! There is no excuse for your behavior...Dday is not new to you either. Breaking into the house was another stupid move. If you aren't serious about recovery which entails you not being an abusive ahole towards your wife, then file for D and be done with it.

Oh, sure! We'll give that to you!

You bully her to the point where she locks you out of the house, and then you frighten her by breaking back in - and worse, by threatening to kill her. You say many, terrifying, sinister things, and you act like a psychopath, and enjoy seeing her terror. You know that we told her to leave for her own safety, and you think you can come here and ask for her new identity and we'll give it to you? Are you insane?

You are coming across as a dangerous, sinister, vindictive, bullying husband -the kinds that wheedles his way systematically around his frightened wife's friends, telling them that he did nothing wrong and he only wants to speak to her, and then when he finds his wife, he hurts her.

You need to be put in jail for what you did, and you need a permanent restraining order against you. You are unstable and you need treatment.

Leave your wife alone.

Why did I ever think I could get help here?

I am getting her back, I will win her heart, will be a great husband, I will start changing, I will do anger management, I will prove to her I am different, and I won't give any credit to this unhelpful forum. I had seriously come for help.

If you want to win your wife back, you will listen to the hard advice you are being given instead of throwing a fit and leaving.

Why are you upset when you say you want to change, and we are telling you how to change?

The help you were looking for today was your wife's new identity. You were looking for a way to get the wife that you THREATENED back, on your terms. You want her back NOW, regardless of how frightened she is. We would never give you help to get her back in that way.

You've been given plenty of Marriage Builders advice on how to overcome your anger problem and how to win your wife back by permanently changing your behaviour. You chose not to listen to it and you are still trying to bypass it and get your wife back today. We're not going to help you abuse her any more.

Stop acting like a big cry baby about how you can't get help from us. You've been given MUCH help.

The only reason he is leaving, Prisca, is because he did not find out his wife's new identity! That was the only thing he came here for today!

Dude we are giving you help if you will take it.

We are giving you an outsider's perspective which you DESPERATELY need right now, and we are giving you insight into how your wife (who is rightfully scared to death) probably feels about you right now. It's to help you understand how serious this is now.

You messed up, big time. It only takes a few words to destroy something when they are the sort of words you chose to use.

If you want to write us all off, good luck to you. I give you a snowball's chance in hell until you start taking this more seriously. The only reason I even took the time to post here is because I'd rather you not wander blindly down the road to divorce (and probably a protective order) which is the road your actions have put you on.

Why don't you call Dr. Harley then? The opinion of this board is obviously not what you were looking for.

ARe you suggesting he will get a different answer from Dr Harley? I know when I am in the wrong, I like to SHOP FOR OPINIONS until I find the desired answer. That is all that is happening here. He doesn't like what he is hearing.

I feel mildly insulted by that. The advice I gave was the advice I've heard Dr Harley give every single time, to a woman who has been threatened and frightened by her husband. The same is true for all posters to this thread. We are not giving our "opinions".

So you'll follow my suggestions, but they didn't help you?

Agree x 1000.

It's a huge that PC isn't asking for advice on how to get his AOs under control.

I'm sorry. I reacted on one poster's harsh opinions with everyone else's helpful insight.

FYI, my wife just texted me, and is happy with me going to therapy and with me reading marriage builders concepts, and she is coming home as soon as I attend therapy and finish that book she left, so excuse me, I have some things to do. She also agreed to meet with me everyday at church until that is over.

I am planning to win her back, read and apply, from this day on, that is not a lie.

What does Dr Harley say about AOs and how to get them under control? Do you know?

I never read the book she gave me before. I haven't gone to therapy yet. I don't know, I just know I will do both things.

It's amazing to me that you don't ASK!

What do you think we are here for??

Big red flags should be going up for your wife.

You can learn right now by reading the articles on this website. The answer is not hard to find.

My ex husband is still paying for my house. Wish he wasn't but he wants to retain a stake in it for when it's sold.

If he BROKE IN I would have the cops and so many male relatives over here. He gets his legal share of the house - he does not get to force himself on my presence by being an intruder. His house - not his home. Any more.



Try this one again. What do you do when infidelity (and I think - if your story is true - that fake out emails and a fake FB affair just to hurt and manipulate might be WORSE than the average infidelity) and AOs forces your wife to separate? Do you a) break in and completely ignore her request or b) get to work on her conditions?



This is very poor reasoning. Words are one of the most effective ways to hurt someone. Even a stranger can be hurtful. It is SO much worse from the person who is supposed to love you.

Choices in order of seriousness are:

a) Telling her not to mind your words (because you're not done inflicting them)
B) Telling her you want to stop using angry words
or
C) SHOW her you are NOT going to inflict any more anger on her by signing up to anger management and being willing to demonstrate 100pc calm over a period of time. WHEN she is ready to see you.

Honestly I think that's amistake for you as much as her. It takes time to cure the level of AO you have. The next one will kill your marriage.

Dr H usually tells husbands like you to date his wife and conquer anger before moving back in.

I sure hope that your wife will not be meeting you anywhere before you have gone through some serious anger management and before Dr. Harley or an another expert has told her that you are not acutely dangerous. And even then, I would not reccommend her to meet you in private.

You are so infinitely entitled, that you have not even begun to understand how abnormal you have become. On the other hand, did your father treat your mother like that, or would you tolerate it, when your daughter's future husband treated her like that?

Why should she believe you when you say you will now finally change? Every drunk wants to stop drinking while puking all over the bathroom. That usually lasts until the next evening.
Your wife yould be wise not to take this sudden change of heart seriously.

She has been laying at your feet for ages and you have only been kicking her down some more. Indeed, sadistic. You have had ample time to change. You have had gazillions of chances to start to even carefully cooperate. If you had wanted to change because you had an actual human heart, you would have changed. Instead you decided to torture her some more.

The only reason she would want to believe you is, that the thought must be abhorrent to have been married to someone with so little ability to be considerate of the feelings of others.

Well done.

Dr Harley wrote this to a woman whose husband used punishment to control and manipulate her feelings:



Now you might be thinking, maybe I'm not as bad as that guy - maybe I can just stop it like that...

But a threat to kill is at the top, very utmost level of abuse seen in marriages. Saying it to the kids is even higher still. When Dr H hears about threats to kill he always recommends separation.

Most angry words directed at spouses aren't illegal - but what you have done is. Threatening to kill someone can get you a criminal charge. It can mean a RO can be filed against you. It can mean your wife has legal course to divorce you - and on the (publicly available) divorce papers it will cite your violent threats as the cause.

If you think that is even remotely OK, if you think it's just words (when the rest of the world knows it is illegal and very scary) - then without doubt you have lots of other, lesser, but still highly abusive habits.

People nearly always 'ramp up' to anger with disrespect and demands. They also believe their spouse causes them to feel bad instead of owning and controlling their own feelings.

I would say that you will do something else that will critically harm your marriage if you moved back in now. Disrespect or phrasing something as a demand at the very least.

And I don't mean to offend you but I would fear for your wife's safety. Domestic violence almost always catches the perpetrator himself by surprise.

Some of the things you claim to have done - like coldly and calculatedly making up an affair to hurt her - are deeply concerning. More so than an actual affair to me. It suggests you view her as a punishment target.

Of course, Dr. Harley will say the same thing, and perhaps that will stop the cascade of drivel.

If this is the truth, I hope your wife is still reading and I hope she demands that you put her in contact with whoever your therapist is, so he doesn't get the "minimize everything" version of the story.

You didn't even bother mentioning that little bit about threatening her life in this thread until we brought it up, AND EVEN THEN you tried to dismiss it as insincere.

I hope your wife comes to realize agreeing to meet with you, even in church, is a huge mistake. You're **EDIT** end game is only to get your wife back into your grasp so that you can control her and beat her down literally and figuratively. In no way would MB sanction her putting her life in danger **EDIT**

You came in here simply because you are no longer in control of your wife, as she discovered she is worthy of more than your manipulative and threatening aggressiveness and your mind tricks.

**EDIT**

I think this is a personal attack, and I've notified on it. It is completely over the top, superfluous and gratuitous.

**EDIT**

My post is no more of a personal attack, no more over the top, etc, than Black Raven's or Axslinger's posts. Frankly, her husband needs to be completely called out by a female poster. As Ax pointed out, how would her husband feel if his daughters were in a similarly abusive relationship, one which threats are treated as running jokes? Her husband needs psychiatric help before she gets hurt and their kids really do become orphans. Marriage Builders would never condone a reconciliation based on manipulation and lip service. The only reason why he's back in here, starting a new thread, is to see if anyone knows of his wife's whereabouts.

All that being said, gleaning from my 12 years of being a military police officer, having been called to numerous domestic abuse calls, one repeat situation ending in homicide, another in homicide-suicide, I called his garbage like I see it. It's reality. Her husband is a ticking time bomb. I'm sorry if you're offended, but it's the truth.

I think its great that you feel so passionately about domestic violence - and that your work tackles it.

**EDIT** You're kind of stomping on your own point...

**EDIT**
No, my work does not "tackle it", which insinuates we head off an altercation before it starts. This isn't Minority Report. It's only when the situation escalates to a point that we are called to a scene. We respond to the situation, not prevent it- prevention, such as telling the victim not to return to his/her abuser (which we have no jurisdiction to do) and telling the abuser to seek help with anger, addiction, etc (again, MPs have no jurisdiction), WOULD be tackling it. There is no "tackling" when the victim refuses to press charges or retracts a statement, or refuses to leave an abusive relationship. In here, however, I am no more than a frustrated member with subject matter experience and common sense calling out a potentially life-threatening abuser. In here, I believe we have a way of "tackling" domestic violence. I've read a number of MB threads posted by police officers whose marriages were falling apart. I'd be interested in their professional take on situations such as Newcase's.

Newcase was proactive in coming to MB to seek advice in saving her marriage, but from everything I've read in their three related threads makes my blood run cold. Their marriage is beyond saving- she needs to save herself and her daughters. Self preservation is a MB principle, correct?

I've read quite a number of MB threads, long before signing up as a member (to be able to comment) and rarely have I ever felt compelled to say much of anything. While MB does a world of good in saving marriages worthy of saving, the forums could also be a place where blunt honesty (backed by facts) should be encouraged- an intervention if you will- especially in obvious abuse cases as such.

**EDIT** She is obviously reaching out for help, offering dark details of her ongoing abuse, but fearful of doing so herself, which is incredibly common.

-----
Warning to poster - Please abide by our Terms of Service. If you can not do so, then do not post. Feeling strongly about your position does not justify breaking the forum rules. If you have any issue with moderation, contact the moderators by email. Do not discuss moderation on the forum.

Ok.

I don't think mine or Axe's posts weren't over the top. Neither one of us offered up a mental/medical diagnosis unlike you. PC's behavior is abusive regardless. Your post is now gone but I read it..and I do see a difference and if the mods saw anything I posted as a personal attack I'm sure it would be modified.

FYI, I am female...and so is Sugar_Cane and happyheart who also called out PC. Still no one diagnosed the OP and IMO it is irrelevant since it still boils down to PC being a danger to his wife no matter what and a choice to behave as he does.

Recovery entails a lot more than reading a book and going to church. Many, many abusers have said they would stop being abusive, were sorry, went through some short term motions etc. rinse and repeat. If there is any hope of salvaging your marriage it will take years, not weeks or even months to show that you have made a REAL change to stop acting as you have.

You still never answered my question. Why shouldn't your wife talk to her mom?

Yeah, not sure if ProChoice is still around reading, but this is the main point here. It's not so much we think you are wanting to or secretly plotting to kill your wife.

It's that we think you cannot control your anger, and very angry people do all sorts of reckless things. Dr. Harley talks often about how a person is not in control of themselves when they have an angry outburst or lose their temper. They destroy things and hurt people.

Your wife said you have had a habit of breaking things around the house when you get angry for a very long time now, and this is why you got so angry you threatened to kill her, even if you can't believe you said it now. It's become a habitual behavior for you, and it's not normal. It's very scary to the people around you.

You're going to have to really work hard to kick this like any bad habit. This sort of thing takes months to do. I'm hoping you are realizing and owning up to how far this has gone. You can't dismiss a death threat as just words, it's a sign that you are very dangerous when you are angry.

Your wife also told us that you held a pillow over her face, years ago.

Your past and recent words and actions do not show that you are safe for her to be around. You need expert help with your anger problem, and your attitude to her in general.

blueangels, I don't know you, you don't know me, so you can't possibly know what I am or not capable of doing, not even a therapist could in a few sessions. It would take several sessions to diagnose. Post like yours actually make any person wanting help to flee. I made a mistake, and I admit it. I acted without thinking, and acted out of impulse. That is the first step in any change, recognition. I have acted several times out of impulse. I admit that. When I snap, I don't think, and I need to be in control all the time. That is what therapy is for.

markos and indiegirl, much has been taken out of your posts. I have tried to change several times, and have seen I keep returning to angry outburst, some impulse in me and I do not want to be the cause of my wife's depression or fear any longer. I know I have my traits that need to change, and I am seeking professional help.

Axlingster, I did break things around, horrible habit, but I already got rid of that habit long ago, without therapy. I haven't broken one thing in the house for six years, and so I know I can deal with the other habits. I have improved. I snapped out of anger, and acted out of control again, feeling kicked out of my own home, but I will owe up to it.

and blackraven, her family never welcomed me, never game me a chance, and they didn't even know me.

If we are talking about assault, I could put his dad in jail. He actually used the words "kill" towards me, my wife's sister threw rotten eggs at my car, and her mom tried to take her away by force. And I am talking about events that happened more than 11 years ago, reason, there was no relationship with her family. I know I had my issues, but I didn't know that then, I was only 18. They could have even talked to my parents rather than declare war. They proceeded wrong too.

When my wife exposed her affair, her family pressured for a divorce. Offered her money, offered her plane tickets, offered her a house to move out.

I had a barrier with her family, but that was because of the way they treated me. But we decided to break that together after affair discovery as I recognized my part in the family tension.

A relationship started. I have to work at it, and her mother is very difficult, very controlling. Once she calls them, there is no going back. It is already tense now without their knowledge of what is going on.

The pillow incident was more than a decade ago. I put it on for a second, no more, but then I realized what I was doing. I never ever repeated anything similar. When I got mad, I got away from her. Not that it excuses it, but I chose to break things rather than get near her. I later learned to get away and cool down. But I kept insulting her. Then I learned to quit insulting. I am learning, and I am trying. And I am sorry.

That is why an anger management class would be so beneficial to you and your family. Your children, your wife and you deserve a peaceful home where anger isn't around. You wouldn't want how your acting to write on your daughters' slate and they find a husband who controls his anger worse than you do. Watching this behavior in the home, teaches them it is okay to blow your top and hurt the ones you love. Please for all involved, show them your love by erasing angry scary outburst from your lives.

Which therapy? What are you doing and when?

Do you acknowledge it might take some time to get there? How can you protect your wife from anger in the meantime?

Will you be separated until a professional clears it?

See the pillow incident was a long time ago, and even though it horrified you and you perservered not to be physical with anger those angry behaviours are still around.

You dont want to do another so-so job on your anger and still be scaring your wife in another 10 years. You want to be thorough NOW.

As to her family, as things stand, it's really no surprise if they don't like you. Give your wife the anger-free husband she deserves and that problem might well resolve itself.

If not, she'll be more than motivated to join her calm husband in tackling her angry family. Win-win.

Anyway, women who've put up with a lot of anger typically have grown up with it. It seems normal to her, so she's endured it for ages even though it hurts and is scary.

Stop the cycle now.

Which therapy? What are you doing and when?
The same therapist from couples therapy, she already knows our background and story. Starting next week once a week.

Do you acknowledge it might take some time to get there?
Yes, but when I set my mind to do something I do it, so mentally, I have stopped already all anger. I will mentally not get angry because I have told myself there is no reason to be angry at anything.

How can you protect your wife from anger in the meantime?
As soon as I feel anger, I will tell myself to stop. We had a peaceful period when we started praying and doing relaxing exercising together. That was working 100%. We had stopped, not sure why. I think I got triggered, maybe, I don't remember.

Will you be separated until a professional clears it?
She already came back last night after we talked. Didn't she post that yet? No, we won't be separated, and I would prefer to stop posting, and just follow my therapist than be advised to separate. I read the story of the husband imposing over her wife in the love buster book. I do relate to that. My wife has been constantly in and out of depression and I understand now why, and I will fix that NEXT TO HER.

Have you listened to the clips in here?

Anger Management 101

I have followed your and your wife's threads.

You were (understandably) hurt by her affair from years ago. Yet you remained married to her but instead of trying to repair your marriage, you sadistically toyed with and tormented her.

During that time she was emotionally under your control and easy for you to manipulate due to her guilt over the affair. When you had total power over her you chose to be cruel, abusive and violent.

Now she has moved out and you no longer have total control over her. Suddenly you claim you are desperate to save your marriage.

I am terrified for your wife's safety because I wonder if you were so cruel WHEN you had control over her, what might you do in desperation now that you see that control slipping away?

Based on your prior behavior I believe that must enrage you further.

You say you had a peaceful period in the past. Why did it end unless you prefer tormenting her to being in love with her?

You claim you will "tell yourself to stop" if you feel anger. But your wife has been begging you to stop tormenting her emotionally for years and you clearly derived more pleasure from hurting her than trying to have a loving relationship with her.

I will pray for both of you. I do not believe you are safe. I really hope is is not true that she is living with you again. If you are serious about changing and repairing your marriage you do not need to live under the same roof to do that.

Anywife,

Exactly what you said. That is the essence.
Thank you for wording it so clearly.

Dude, you are not getting it.

Most women who were told what you told your wife would be moved out of that house for an indefinite period of time faster than you could blink. It wouldn't matter if you were the male equivalent of Mother Teresa, it wouldn't matter if you had a great marriage up to that point, nor would any excuses like you just listed matter.

The issue at hand wouldn't be "is her husband a nice guy who I respect and wants the best for her" it would be "is her husband bat [censored] crazy right now or what, and how can we get her away from him while he gets help". There is a gigantic red line you have crossed.

What you said to blueangels is just the icing on the cake that you are not taking any responsibility for this. Someone who just lost their temper so badly that their wife fled to a woman's shelter is lecturing another person who is personally involved in domestic abuse cases about not knowing what they're capable of? Are you serious?

What happened 11 years ago: not important. Sorry to tell you.

You are the one responsible for what you said to your wife. Not your in-laws.

Sadly, Prochoice, you have still not given up the entitlement and have not broken your ego down enough to have that "eureka" moment that you see yourself in the daylight of your actions.

Even here, where you know you are supposed to at least pretend you are sorry for your actions and at least pretend to own up to them. Even here, you cannot bring yourself to not minimize and excuse your behaviour.

- I only choked her with a pillow for a second
- the affair made me do it
- her dad has said bad things too
- her family never liked me and behaved badly
- I pay the bills, so I can break back into the house to my terrified wife
- I did not really mean it (after all I have not done it - yet)

That tells us that you are not there yet.
Tere are a few things that in my opinion show if a human is mature:
free thinking: the ability to form an opinion based on weighing the facts pro and contra, irrespective of what others think, what society thinks or what you would like to be true
autonomy: the ability to stand alone and not do or think what all the others do, even if it is uncomfortable
empathy: the ability to care about, consider and respect the feelings and opinions of others, being as important as your own or as if you yourself were involved
introspection: the ability to think about oneself honestly, to weigh criticism objectively, irrespective of who is criticizing you and to learn from each critique, even if it is you enemy who is getting in your face.

Autonomy is probably strong in you. And you seem to be very capable to do as you please and think as you will, irrespective of what your wife, us, society expects of you.

I see problems though in all of the others. The key here, is considering the feelings of others as important as your own feelings and to be able to see yourself and your feelings for what they are. To know your own deeper motives. Many people are never able to do it, because they fail to be brutally honest with themselves and their own feelings or because they fail to consider the feelings of others.

What drives you may be a high need for power and control. You may want to influence people around you and be on top of things. That in itself is neutral. But it is important that you know and acknowlegde that about yourself. Your actions in the past and in the present can be explained by this.

If you crave control, it must be achieved in a positive way and not by coercion and threats. And in marriage you have to voluntarily share the power and control with your spouse to be able to have a happy marriage.

In your case you have to let go, really.
Because of the long history of your marriage which has become very unhealthy, I would be very hesitant to reccomend you to try to repair it. You may be better off, letting her go, so that your girls will have a peaceful life. Plan B sounds like a very good idea, although it will be hard for you to give up your influence. You will start seeing that, once you really get it.
If you don't, your life and future relations will be tainted and miserable.
Giving up control can be freeing. You cannot controll everything and trying will just make your frustrated and tired.

Mrs Pro, it's same old same old for you. Lame old counsellor who didn't ensure your safety.

I implore you to seek Dr Hs advice.

Pro,

I commented to your W earlier on your thread that her feelings of resentment toward you were based on her affair. That was before I saw your recent posts and you attitude, which indicate that she made the right decision to leave you for her safety. My advice - stop stalling, stop planning and just jump into 1) an anger management program certified by your local county court (simply going back to your previous counselor doesn't count, since he has been ineffective in predicting your potential for violence, and 2)begin studying and reading books and articles here on marriage builders. If you really do care about your W and your family, as you say you will stop with your efforts to sanitize yourself for the sake of the members here, and take these steps.

Tom

PC,
You are a role model for your daughters' imprints in nmature adult male behavior, whether you intend to be or not.

I cannot presume to know you; I'm guessing your aggresiveness is a habit (something you can change) and not an instinct (something you can't change).

Please read Dr. Harley's basic concepts (link is to the left on this website) addressing habits and insticts.

Next, please call the number of your local battered women's shelter and ask for an MSW counselor they refer for offender services.

This is the best chance you have to never hurt your wife again, nor to negatively influence your daughters' ideals about men again.

A plan to address your anger is much more urgent while you are living at home with your wife and daughters, than if you are not.

Please refer to "The Love Bank", also in Dr. Harley's basic concepts.

I should be sleeping this time a day but I come to this site in actual desperate need of help.
I initially took this site as a joke being that it was found by my betraying spouse, in the mentality she cheats and now she gets to tell me how to recover. After the posts switched from her affair to me being an evil monster abuser, I took personal issues against the site.
Our recent events took a wake up call turn. For those that thought I was a psycho ready to kill her, she is still alive and sleeping quite sweet next to our daughters. I said hurtful things, being able to be perceived as assault, as a wrongful moment of anger. Although the affair happened 5 years ago, I feel as if it was a double betrayal. 5 years ago I learned she had chatted and travelled with him to leave me. But I forgave her, I trusted her to the point I refused to call it an affair, I called it an inappropriate imoral behavior. I trusted her to the point I did not read the chats. I do not know exactly if I ever overcame the affair. Initially, it popped in my mind frequently and as time went by, I was not thinking about it. It got triggered rarely, and it was when she disagreed with me and as she avoided answering questions, she rapidly agreed when I brought it up. This habit backfired me as It was an emotional time bomb.
A little over a year ago a real trigger made me pull out her old chats and actually read them. The feelings were as a different d-day, as I learned many things that disturbed me. While my reaction 5 years back was to recover my marriage and make my wife happy, the content of the chats made me react in loosing my mind. I did not intend to punish her as it was seen, more of giving her a lesson and things got out of hand and out of my own control. While pre-affair there was a bit of temper from my side, and I did break things around as she mentioned, that was not always, we had our good moments too, and as crazy as it sounds, I thought we were fine but with only one issue which was actually never mentioned: the fact she was unable to have sex with her own husband.
I read sometimes about sexless marriage, but if that couple had sex once, that is not sexless. I mean up to the affair point my marriage was 100% sexless. That includes honeymoon night when I saw how crazy she reacted to sex and pushed me ad if I was raping her. It was literally impossible to have sex with her. Yet, i did not go off and have an affair. okay, a little frustruated which explains the breaking things around the house. as time went by, each time we tried she continued pushing me back, which contributed in personal sex issues myself and I stopped trying. I blamed it on an incident that happened to her when she was 8 years old, but after the affair she could have sex, and the comment is could. She still avoided the act, but asked to try again. I always wondered why. Took a bit of effort but at least we were able to. After I read the chats, that is, a year ago, she suddenly no longer had sex-averssion. I have to thank the affair and my reading about it for her psychological trauma to be cured???? My own therapist cant explain this. We were together even up to six times a day, initially.
As the months continued, i kept reading the chats, which were way long. That is five months of chats x probably 5 hours or more a day.
I then read how my wife was telling OM we were sexually inactive, that itself was crossing the line, to top this, here is this scumbag, daring to answer back to her what her husband should and should not be doing and how I should be approaching this. OM reccommendations sent to BH, really?????? I dont know if anyone could possibly relate to this irony. This was mostly the biggest resentment and the point I switched my approach with our marriage, and not proud of all the lessons I played back at her.
I am in therapy for anger, which was recommended. I am stuck in recovery. We had another recent argument, because she is just too messy and keeps loosing things. And she came with the disrespectful judgment quote and I snapped and the first thing that popped to my head was the affair, I started insulting her as reaction. I've used this already for 5 years so now that I intend to recover the right way, I see I have created much too damage on top of the real damage of her affair. I told her again to go ask her lover how to be clean, maybe he knows the answer. So, we went back to her reaction of her sleeping in the guest room, but this time she asked me to separate for reals, in a peaceful manner.
Although this was recommended to her and to me in previous post, I feel as though she would go right off the first man that starts talking nice to her. I feel stuck. How could I possibly recover knowing she is out there alone. And how could I simply erase the habit I have created and just stay under the same roof.

Pro, nobody thinks you are a hopeless case but you cant learn this stuff overnight.

You are horribly abusive to your wife. It does you know favours to be under the same roof before you stop.

What happened? Why is my new post merged with my old ones. I was starting a new one because I have a different mind set and this one is not with intention of her to read but for me this time, to get help and hence I had a new title on my post. Can I have my new title back?

Click the Notify the mod button.

Prochoice, what you describe above is the exact reason it was recommended that your wife separate from you. Your marriage cannot ever recover until you get your anger under control and stop punishing your wife for her affair. Not only does it push her away, but it keeps you in a state of rage when you speak about it. It is like shooting yourself in the foot.

The key to recovery is a) get your anger under control and b) never bring up the affair again and c) implementing the concepts of this program.


What kind of therapy? Is this someone who specializes in anger management? How does his program work?

here

The mods are letting posters know about your background.

That's because the same advice still applies. When a man is unable to stop his AOs, his wife should separate from him until he can.

It will be easier for you to avoid hurting her if you do not live under the same roof. The fact that some mess around the house led you to this latest episode of abuse simply bears out the advice you and your wife were already given.

Your marriage will never recover as long as you choose to have angry outburts. Your marriage will never recover as long as you continue to discuss her affair.

If you want to recover, it is vital that you never have another angry outburst again as well as never mentioning anything about her affair again.

If you refuse to do those things, our advice to her will remain the same: separate from him until he shows he is willing to protect you and build a marriage with you.

Are you listening to Dr. Harley's radio show? Dr. Harley used to have an anger problem himself -- he knows how to eliminate it. He'll talk to you for free.

All posters are encouraged to try and stick to one thread if the topic is the same topic. I'm guessing that's why your previous thread was merged.

Nobody here thinks you are a psycho killer. We think that you are someone who gets very emotional and has a difficult time controlling yourself when you get emotional. We want to help you overcome this and rebuild your marriage. This is very common and Dr. Harley has a lot of experience (as do many of the posters here) with how to overcome this.

I would urge you to consider that you are not in a position where you can try to dictate or balance the process of recovering your marriage along the lines of what is "fair" in your mind.

You must look at what problems exist today, and how best to solve them irregardless of what has happened yesterday.

If you try to hold onto your grievances from the past, you will lose your marriage and your family. Your wife is as human as the rest of us and she will reach her breaking point eventually.

I agree that you have been through a lot, but if you want to save this you need to get fully vested in saving it, and if you don't you need to seek a divorce. Trying to stand in the middle of those options will result in disaster.

Today I am going to look into the anger links that Brainhurts sent me.

Which radio shows exactly are you talking about Prisca?

I won't have any more angry outbursts. I know I said that before, but this time is for reals. I had been working in the sun all day, was tired and exhausted, and therefore wasn't thinking.

As I said before, after I said I would never break anything around the house, I never did, and I have never repeated so in six years. After I said I will never lay a finger on her again, I never did again. I said I won't be trying to show her how I felt anymore, and I stopped. So, if I say I won't have more AO, knowing now exactly what it is, I won't. Can she be recommended to stay? I can change.

Or how could this possible work out well at the end if we are separated? We have two girls that require both mom and dad together.

Sir, can you answer the question above?
What type of therapy are you in?
You say you can control yourself, but then make an excuse that you were in the hot sun all day.

As for your children, I agree that they need both loving parents. They don't need a dad that can't control himself. I don't think you are taking this seriously and are only posting because you don't want your wife to separate from you.

Dr. Harley would probably encourage her to separate until you have completed an anger management program and are able to control yourself.

I am talking about Dr. Harley's radio show. There's a link to it at the top of the page.
MB Radio Show
You can also write them and get on the show yourself. You could talk to Dr. Harley himself for free.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard that.

If you want her to believe it, you are going to need to prove it. Proving it means you must go at least a year without a single angry outburst.

Until you've done that, stop pressuring her to not separate. Encourage her to do what she needs to do to protect herself. If you really do intend to stop the angry outbursts, you will have no problem winning her back.

Bingo. This is why separation is necessary. Every time you go back on your word not to get angry with or insult your wife about her affair, you destroy a little more her ability to trust you. You make huge withdrawals from her love bank.

The separation is advised to protect her well being (emotional and physical) as well as to preserve your ability to fix this. If she stays with you and you continue the behavior that both of you have described, she will eventually have nothing left for you and recovery will be impossible.

You need a break so that you can focus on changing this behavior and breaking these habits. She needs a break so that she does not begin to have health problems from the depression that your behavior is causing her.

markos has been through what you're going through and now has a great marriage. I would pay attention to his input here.

This statement demonstrates that you are NOWHERE near getting your AOs under control.

In case you missed it, read this post by markos.

Answer: My therapist is exploring the root of the problem. I have no idea what the plans are except I talk and talk and talk about what makes me angry and why.

That will get you nowhere fast.
NOTHING can MAKE you angry. As long as you have a therapist that dwells on that, you will get nowhere.
You need to get into an anger management program that teaches you how to relax in the face of frustration.

For heaven's sake - what is THAT supposed to achieve?

Why aren't you in proper anger management which will teach you, rather than just charge you to vent.

Talking about what makes you angry completely misses the point - YOU make you angry. You need coaching, not being swindled.

If your therapist was worth anything, she would have given you exercises to do from the first day. You would be focusing on stopping the problem of anger, from day one. The very fact that she gets you to talk about your feelings, rather than STOP the behaviour, shows that she does not know what he is doing.

Is your therapist an anger management specialist, or is she an individual counsellor who deals with any and all issues?

Please find a qualified anger management therapist who teaches relaxation techniques. Flapping your gums about what makes you angry isn't helpful.

I see you said this:

Does your therapist know about the latest incident, and that your wife has asked you to leave? What is her response and advice?

Did you ever tell her what you said to your wife about how sad it would be if your kids ended up with only one parent - the day you threatened to kill her? What was the therapist's response?

What was her response to your breaking back into the house?

So you're never going to be tired again?



The problem is you are still on the very far side of the spectrum. You may be conquering each habit one by one - but you are talking about very extreme habits. There are lots of (quite serious) mistakes still in your habit bag.

You are someone who is always bringing up the past. You think a speech about why you are right about something will achieve a good outcome. You think other people make you angry. Being tired after work is enough to make you angry.

You still have a lot of predictable mistakes still to make. Disrespect for example, is anger's little brother.

You can avoid subjecting your wife to these things by moving out while you conquer them and learn how to handle conflict.

For example, say your wife tells you she isn't going to clear up in the way you've asked her to. She's just saying no to that. How would you tackle that refusal?

Step #1 is acknowledging that you aren't entitled to your anger, period! Who cares why you get angry? As long as YOU think you have the right to, you are going to do it. Like with your being hot and exhausted excuse.

So it's clear now that you haven't listened to Dr Harley's clips on stopping AOs. Are you planning to do so? When?

Maybe he will listen this time??

Anger Management 101

WHAT I LEARNED IS:

1) No one makes me angry. I am in complete control of my anger.

2) I can identify the incidents that make me have angry outbursts, me is also frustruation. I can either blame my wife or other people and get angry or look for a solution.

3) I understand why the angry outbursts take place.
- Pre-affair, our sexual problems made me feel frustruated, and I chose to break things around, which was unhealthy and intimidated her more. Any decision that was not my way got me frustruated as a follow up of the previous frustruation reason, and I chose to be angry and I used more intimidation, since it got me what I wanted.
- Post reading chats of affair, after shock of the pain associated with being betrayed, I used the affair as secondary gain, it got her to do everything I wanted her to do. It became a destroying habit to get things done my way that got me angrier inside and resentment grew at an alarming rate. I felt she didn't deserve me trying to control my temper. I got offended when she disagreed with anything or did anything that was not my way, as I felt entitled to having her make it up at all costs and in any condition, and I chose to punish her in each incident instead of solving the particular problem.

4) Any time I feel frustruated, I need to relax. I have done this before. I chose to stop using it and continue the punishment.

5) I did not see it as punishment, but as a lesson. I am in no condition to punish anyone for their mistakes. I have experienced that doing so heats me up more and more until I no longer feel in control. When I become angry, I become insane, and I can't solve problems. I might do something that I might regret. That did not mitigate any of the pain of the affair, but rather kept it present and made it grow.

6) I have justified each AO with her past mistake or her present action that frustruated me. I won't justify more angry outbursts.

7) My job as her husband is to protect her instead of punish her. At which point did this switch? I can't remember, but I have to protect her from outside world as well as from me, and get my anger under control.

We have agreed on a temporary separation, while she visits her sister, who is about to have a baby. We will be in touch by skype.
I will continue reading and listening to Dr. Harley's radio shows related to anger management, angry outbursts and related topics. I will prove to her when she returns I will no longer have any more angry outbursts. I have given up the entitlement I gave myself for her mistake (HUGE MISTAKE). I can't say I forgive her, that is something too painful, but I don't want to think about it or use it to my gain to get my way. I want to be in love with her again, and want her to be in love with me too, and have a happy marriage next to her and be equal partners.

Glad to hear you've done some listening and some learning.

Will you find a good anger management program that will teach you to relax instead of vent?
Will you get a GSR meter to help you in relaxation training?
Will you agree to never bring up her past affair again?

What you have written about anger and angry outburts is very to the point.
Forgiveness is a difficult thing to grasp. You know they say that
"the best revenge is living well". That is what you want to accomplish. Not bringing up the affair is a first step. What is more important is to not delve into it in your mind. As you have found out in the past this brings you nothing but bad moods and makes you unhappy.

The mind is a funny thing. If you think about a certain subject for more than 2 minutes, your mind will bring about the feelings that go with it. May it be your first schoolday or the day your grandfather died. The same with bad thoughts about affairs.
If you take care to think about something else within 2 minutes, it will not affect you that much. This also works with happy memories that will lift your mood.

This 2-minute rule has helped me tremendously in managing traumatic memories from the past and may be helpful to you. One of the things that have made you so unhappy, is brooding over nasty things from the past. Instead think about the good times and how to bring them back.

A wife who is in love with her husband knows nobody who compares to him, because her feelings revolve around him. Once you start rebuilding your marriage, those feelings come back and any other man wil be a vague nothing, especially if you never bring such a subject up.

That is why it is so important to keep the love alive in your marriage by extraordinary care and spending fun and affectionate time together. What you have done in the past was the opposite and would tempt any woman to fantasize about a knight in shining armour. You can turn your marriage around bit by bit and overcome your problems. This will take some work, but like building a house, you will have to remove the rubbish from the premise and make a good foundation.

I won't bring the affair up. I hadn't brought it up since we agreed on it, except only twice last month, and I don't plan to bring it up anymore, because I don't want to think about it. I don't mean to dwell in the past but there is just something I don't understand. I was never a romantic person. That is not who I am. That is not how I ever was. All of the sudden I am suppose to be romantic:

She has affection and admiration as her two top emotional needs, then intimate conversation then recreational companionship.

i don't know if we are actually compatible.

All my jokes are insults, all my conversation is disrespectful judgment now, but I have talked this way since we were boyfriends and she was happy before, now is suddenly always insulted. I don't really mean to say asnything to insult her. I feel she is trying to shape me to who she wants me to be yet I don't see her having to make many changes, while she never listens, never pays attention, is way messy, has zero feminine touches in our house, and keeps forgetting things. Then, I feel as though she feels embarrased of me being her husband. She does not concentrate in anything but her research.

I have woken up in a different perspective today. I don't know if I can keep this up. I like her company, yet we aren't compatible. I admit, AO and bringing up the affair do have to dissappear, but I don't feel like being romantic. I have never been like that with any girlfriend, I am not an affectionate person and I like my space. As an oly child, I have grown up alone, and my wife is like a cat.

I can handle and work on AO and temper. I can do all necessary measures to prpve that. i am hearing the rest of the radio shows on the topic. bit, I simply don't feel like sending romantic notes, when not even when I was completely insanely in love with her did I do that. Now, I am feeling as her being away, she can go off with any man and leave me, or get in touch with her ex again. I searched for him and found he is back on facebook, so she can easily find him too. I have the same stabbing feeling in my heart as d-day. He is the Don Juan type man of big words. He used so many phrases on my wife before, and she is so stupid and gullible she can actually fall for words, already did once, and that is what worries me.

Then your marriage has no hope, and she should stay separated from you.

[qoute]I won't bring the affair up. I hadn't brought it up since we agreed on it, except only twice last month,[/quote]
Then it is not true that you haven't brought it up.

Disrespectful judgments such as this will have to stop. She is no more stupid or gullible than you are. She has made poor choices. So have you.

I'm glad to see you've read and digested Dr Harley's work on disrespectful judgements, ProChoice!

If an insult is not a DJ, I don't know what is. Way to win your wife back!

Does the fact that she is stupid and gullible and falls for words explain why she went back to you after you sweet-talked her last week? Did you find a way to be good with words when you needed to be?

Have you read anywhere in Dr Harley's work that it's acceptable to call your wife "stupid"?

The Marriage Builders plan is a plan to restore feelings in marriage.

We can do things even when we don't feel like doing them. My kids often don't feel like doing what I ask them to do, but they can do it anyway.

If you will follow the steps that Dr. Harley suggests, even if you don't feel like it, your marriage will eventually recover, and you will feel wonderful!

We will be glad to talk with your wife about taking extraordinary precautions to ensure that she never has an affair again, like not having private communication with men.

Ok

But my point is, i am working very hard on anger management. While working on that some other guy can cross her life because ahe is alone. She is three hours away!!!! And I don't think we can survive one week, less one entire month. This forum and the reading also takes up a lot of my time.

She's three hours away because you haven't eliminated demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts, right?

Sure, all kinds of things can happen while separated. But this isn't going to get better as long as you reserve the right to call her stupid when you are feeling frustrated about her being far away. Work the plan for getting back together.

Have you read this?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html

In fact you should probably read and reread all of the articles in that section.

Yes, she might do that. We will be more than happy to talk to her about extraordinary precautions that would prevent another affair (as markos mentioned). Preventing another affair is part of the program.

But it is your anger that has put you both in this risky situation. You must make it safe for her to return to you. Your anger has made it worth the risk of her having an affair -- she NEEDS to be away from you for her own safety.

Calling her stupid is not going to make it safe for her to come home. In fact, you're probably back to square one now since she is very likely reading this thread.

If you want her back, you're going to have to stop dwelling on her past affair. You're going to have to stop thinking about what she COULD do. You're going to have to start changing yourself. Today. No more abuse.

If you don't want to do that, and the risk seems too great, you are free to get a divorce.

Yesterday's broadcast, which is being rebroadcast online right now for the next 90 minutes or so, has a section on anger management. Have you listened to it? Will you be able to listen before it is replaced by today's live broadcast?

This approach won't work. Sorry. If you want your wife to be in love with you, you have to learn how to cultivate romance in your marriage.


This is probably because your balance in her love bank is so low right now. You may also need to be more thoughtful about when you are joking with her. It's easy for what you may intend as playful or flirting sarcasm to feel like ridicule to her, especially while she is unhappy with you.

If your humor insults her, what matters is that she feels insulted, not what your intentions with the humor were. Gotta start looking at things from that angle if you want to get anywhere. Drop the types of humor she doesn't like and focus on the types of things she does find funny right now. If you used to joke around with her a lot, your sense of humor is probably a good way to make LB deposits with her. But anything that makes her feel ridiculed has to go.

ProChoice,
I am not "naturally" romantic either. I used to feel foolish trying to be romantic because I really didn't know how. That's one of the things I love about MB: I don't need to be a natural, Dr. Harley figured it out for me. I don't even have to come up with ideas, my wife will tell me by filling out the ENQ. I can just do the easy part, the "labor". The design is done for me!

Affection being a high percentage EN for women, I decided that I should probably learn some skillz. I learned how to do a decent foot massage. This type of affection is usually well received, but it is non-intimate enough that it can't really be construed as trying to get a cheap thrill or leading up to "something else". It is rare and valuable and just intimate enough to be affection and yet wholly separate from sexual fulfillment. That served me pretty well in depositing love units. So now fast forward to having a disagreement with my wife...I usually assign myself a "penance" of delivering a foot message because I can do that without needing to speak. I understand how hard it is to deliver admiration and pleasant conversation when you are unhappy/not in love, so find another way.

Yeah, I get it that you feel like you are doing the heavy lifting in terms of change. So become the man that you think is a good husband, without expectations of your wife. Become that good/great/perfect husband because that is who you believe you should be. If you make the changes for you, because you believe in being that person, you will be able to sustain it indefinitely.

ProChoice,

I do not have the verbal restraint that others have here - calling your W 'stupid and gullible' in public here pretty much defines you! Just cluing you in - you have not made an iota of progress after all your time here and all your W's efforts. If you still express the venom you did in this post, then 1) your supposed counselor doesn't know crap about counseling in anger management, and neither do you about the subject, and 2) despite all your hurrahs about what you seem to be doing, you're not taking any of the advice here, nor do you know the first thing about MB! Nor do you seem to be interested. And, you're right - you're wife should be embarrassed that you are still her H. Despite all your talk, you still don't posses the humility to step back and consider yourself as others, esp. your wife, do. If you have any hope of saving your M, then I challenge you to get into counseling with Dr. Harley. You seem to fall back on your trait of browbeating people into your way of thinking, but I very much doubt you could browbeat him.

Tom

**EDIT**

Happyheart , your advise was great. Your post is being applied.

Ok

How do I listen to it now?

I am sorry I used the word stupid. I will work harder.

To listen to the radio show, wither download the ap if you have a smart phone or go to the top of this page on your computer and click Marriage Builders radio. My husband and I have learned a great deal from listening to Dr Harley everyday.

Show you're sorry by never doing at again.
Train yourself to never do it again by following Dr. Harley's recommendations on relaxation.
Will you get a GSR meter as he suggests?

Did you read this?

I'm done listening to anger management 101. Is there a disrespectful judgements 101 I could listen to?

Posting this angry, sarcastic, cryptic comment is silly and childish.

Make your point directly, and leave out the "smart alec" attitude. It isn't smart, it isn't funny, and it won't help you get support with your marital problem.

What is the problem?

Did you read this?

What is angry about stating he is done with one task that has been repeatedly pointed out about his demeanor and behavior and seeking out info from another thread about another love buster that has been repeatedly pointed out?

LTL

SugarCane, I am not posting for an unknown distant stranger to like me but since you are asking I will update. I had already agreed on following this program, yet my wife went ahead and called my father and told him about our worse fights that were ages ago and our recent fights. My father got sick worried about us and it breaks my heart to see my father so devastated. I had already agreed to follow this plan and calling my father was totally un- necessary and most certainly did not help our relationship at all. It caused huge love bank withdrawals as I believe that is a type of betrayal. When I found out about her affair, I did not expose her affair behind her back. I gave her the choice to expose herself and send the emails of the affair herself. That was a worse subject and I did not do it behind her back.
After she called father, I was ready to end the relationship. I was very upset, sad, mad, confused and I thought I knew her better, even after the affair, I thought she would never reveal some past incidents that were already over which I had already apologized.
But I promised my father everything would be alright, and then I decided to promise myself, and I went to get her to come back home. I haven't had a single AO since but I went back to antidepressants. The so called exposure caused more harm than benefits.
Now, as we start building our relationship, everything is disrespectful judgement for her. I am impatient, I am sarcastic, I get easily irritated, that is who I am. that is my perspnality and how I was when she decided to marry me and now I realize there is nothing really about me she liked. At the moments I was purposely being a jerk I see how I have to change that, but I come to realize this goes for the moments we are having a good time as well. Everything is a disrespectful judgement. So, since there were radio clips on anger, I thought I'd do my homework and listen to the radio clips on DJ and hence my previous post.
There are no perfect humans, hence no perfect marriages and I can't really see the outcome of this program but given the position I am finding myself, I either have to follow this plan or loose my family, I might as well follow it to the dot and just hope it works.

And yes Prisca, I read the articles. Don't agree being rude or irrespectful is abuse but will follow along the program and eliminate those issues. I rather listen than read.

I don't believe you're going to make it with that attitude.

What attitude? I don't get it. Yes, I do disprove of her talking to my father. It dissapointed me about her. Why did I have to be cheerful about that, but it was done, past, and on we go. I think it was a lousy advise from MB, that's all. That doesn't make me resolve my temper. What was the point anyways? My father has nothing to do with our marriage. All it did decrease my love bank, but far from that, I still feel connected to her and the resentment over the affair is actually fading. There are parts of me that still love her.
I was honestly posting a simple question. I did listen to all the links on anger topic, and given there are no clips on this other topic, it will be up to us to discuss and set up a plan.

ProChoice, I didn't say anything about wanting to like you. What I wanted was to understand your post. I take it you post here for people to understand you, and give you help?

"After she called father, I was ready to end the relationship. I was very upset, sad, mad, confused and I thought I knew her better, even after the affair, I thought she would never reveal some past incidents that were already over which I had already apologized.
But I promised my father everything would be alright, and then I decided to promise myself,"

So, exposure DID have a benefit. You are now being held accountable by your father. That is the point of exposure. Your wife is no longer struggling with this secret by herself. If you continue to behave in your angry, impulsive way (including, recently, threatening to kill her, let us not forget), she will tell your father again, and what will he think of you?

You seem to want to him continue thinking of you as a good husband and father, which up until now you have not been. What is wrong with him knowing the truth? Are you ashamed of it? If so, GOOD! You should be ashamed, and you should strive to do better.

"I went to get her to come back home" - So she is back with you now? This is a grave mistake, and here is why:

"Now, as we start building our relationship, everything is disrespectful judgement for her. I am impatient, I am sarcastic, I get easily irritated, that is who I am. that is my perspnality and how I was when she decided to marry me and now I realize there is nothing really about me she liked. At the moments I was purposely being a jerk I see how I have to change that, but I come to realize this goes for the moments we are having a good time as well. Everything is a disrespectful judgement."

Despite what you should have read in Dr Harley's writings about changing your behaviour, you have no intention of changing, because you do not think your wife is justified in wanting change. You don't see why you should have to change. You don't even want to change, and you don't think you can. You have always been the way you are; sarcastic, impatient and irritated is who you are, you were that way when she married you, you've been that way ever since, and you don't see why you should change. She should change her expectations, and stop complaining.

All your talk on this thread, when she was away, about how, when you make up your mind to change, you change...was just hot air. When she was away, you were willing to promise anything. You begged us to tell her to go home, based on these promises.

Now that she is home, your attitude is the same as it always was.

Your wife should not have gone back to you.

Prochoice,

listening to your wife's complaints and changing are in your own best interest. If you are impatient, sarcastic and easily irritated, that stems from your inner unhappiness and inner anger.

Impatience is really the thought that things should go as you wish. Sarcasm is aggression with words. Irritation is anger that things don't go as you want them to.

You may not realize that, but every time you listen to the angry 3-year-old inside of you (inside all of us by the way), you are making this angry part of you stronger. The angry part is also the part that makes you dissatified in general.
Once you let go of the behaviours that stem from the anger and replace them with calming yourself and distancing yourself from these thoughts, you will start to change.

You have had these habits for many years and of course it will feel off in the beginning, not like "yourself". But in a few months of diligently practising, your inner world will slowly start to change. Just as you grow a tree by cutting the branches that you don't want, it will change its shape, but it will still thrive. The same goes for you. It takes real determination, but if you do the work and put real effort in it, your inner self will change and become a happier person.

Only when you lay off your inner anger, you will start to experience that people will react differently to you. It may not be obvious to you, but people will subconciously pick up you inner feelings. You will make many positive experiences once you lay down this burden of anger you have been carrying. By letting it go, you will not lose any "rights" or "power". You will be free at last, to choose how to live your life without being dominated by subcouncious aggression.

My husband has been complaining for years about my drinking directly from my water bottle. He just does not like it. To be truthful, I do not see anything wrong with it and frankly did not take his POV seriously, because... well, I have no problem with it. This year I made a new-year's resolution to drink from a glass and at first it was a hassle. After 5 months now, it has become a habit and I don't ever think about it anymore.

You should change your inner anger for yourself to be able to have a happier life. If your wife complains about things though, it is sensible to change them. I assume, that being easily irritated etc. is not a characteristic of your personality that is very valuable to you. If it bothers your wife, why not change it?

You will be a happier person for it and if your wife is happier, you will benefit from that as well and so will the children. It may even have positive implications for your standing in the workplace.

Just think about it for a minute, if the things your wife complains about are really valuable to you and if it may be worth the trouble to change yourself for the better.

An unwillingness to have your deeds exposed and to be held accountable does not bode well for your recovery.

You should welcome her to tell anybody she wishes to tell.

I agree with the others that transparency is not your enemy, and if you find it to be your enemy, you are setting yourself up for problems. Hiding things from your family means either you, or your wife (or in this case, both of you) have been behaving in ways that you KNOW are wrong because the people closest to you would be ashamed. To keep those things secret is to make those actions have no real consequences, because it's either CYA or enabling of a destructive spouse.

So really, there is no value to hiding things, nor any reason to be angry that someone has revealed things you actually did to your family. You don't have to be cheerful about it, just realize that your actions are the cause of your embarrassment. If your wife wasn't exposed, that was a mistake, not a favor, by the way.

Still a lot of thinking here about what is fair and frustration on what your wife is unhappy about. Neither of those are attitudes that are capable of addressing your problems here.

Do you have any MB books?

The fact that you did not expose her affair does not make her exposure of your behavior "wrong". It is disturbing that you would think it does. Dishonesty in marriage is poison. Covering for each other via mutually-agreed lies is inherently dishonest. That fact that you believe you should be entitled to such a pact and are now angry that it didn't work out that way is very disturbing. Unless you embrace radical honesty, your marriage doesn't have a chance. You shouldn't be angry that you were exposed. You should welcome it. It means that your wife "gets it". The problem is you, because you don't get it.

Oh, my wife's affair was exposed, not by me. That is the point. I gave her the choice to expose herself and send all the e-mails herself, and I was behind her during her exposure, or I do the exposure myself. This way, it wasn't done behind her back. If my father had to know about these other incidents, I would have rather talked to him myself than having my wife talk to him. But, exposure behind the back is what is taught here, so I won't argue anymore. It's done, it's past, and I want to move forward and not talk about it anymore.

We have His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters.

The current problem is this and I will explain from the start my question about disrespectful judgment. My wife had a PERFECT SAT math score, was class valedictorian, has a scientific patent, is an author of THREE (not one) scientific books, so, I always tell her to please don't tell me she doesn't remember something, can't concentrate or pay attention to our current surrounding:

We are out dating, I am talking to her, and she is smiling and looking at me, and then I ask her what I was talking to her about. She was lost 30 seconds ago. That is a frequent scenario.

Then, the incident she talked on the radio show. This is what really happened. I told her to grab the documents. As I was walking out the door, I saw her hold them so I went to the car. When we arrived, she hadn't brought them. Off course that is frustrating. What happened with the folder she was holding? She had laid it on the table as she put on her shoes. Again, lack of concentration. But this isn't an isolated event. This happens time after time in different ways, almost in a daily basis.

Just last night, she took out the garbage, and then, late at night I heard a noise. I went straight to the garage. She had left the garage door open.

She has left her purse so many times in the restaurant. She frequently looses the keys, her cellphone, her wallet, her debit card, forgets something I asked her to do. This happens on a regular basis.

I will do all my best regarding the disrespectful judgments, and seriously, if there are links about how to do this faster, I'd listen. I never said I was unwilling to try, but she needs to work on that forgetting and not concentrating habit too. I've already told her so. She is extremely bright. She can solve logic problems at incredible speed, therefore, she is more than capable of concentrating on her surrounding. She chooses not to, as I can see by all this theory, you can change your habits and re-wire your brain as to how to behave.

I don't like my thread in the affair section. I don't want to think about that anymore. How can I move it to the recovery section?

Your wife's forgetfulness can be dealt with once you have eliminated your angry outbursts and can address the problem respectfully. Right now, you are very angry and disrespectful. These other problems you have brought up can not be solved in that environment.

ProChoice, you are being very disrespectful to your wife about her forgetfulness.

I too am college educated and had a promising career before choosing to be a SAHM. But I am also VERY forgetful. Call it adult ADD or whatever you would like, it is certainly not something I would choose and I struggle with it daily. Forgetfulness is not really a 'habit' IMO, because you don't choose to forget something or be absent minded. I have worked hard to find ways to cope with this, by taking vitamins and natural remedies to inspire concentration and focus, by creating habits that help me to remember, like keeping notes and lists on my iPhone so I always have them with me, etc. This does not change my forgetfulness, but it does create an environment that helps cope with that.

My H was very negative and disrespectful about this for many years. He has always had a very sharp memory. He could not understand how someone so easily forgets from one moment to the next. About 8 years ago he became ill with a chronic illness that affects him in many ways, one of which is memory. Suddenly, I was reminding him of things. It was very frustrating for him but for the first time, he understood what this is like for me (we have one son who is like this too). In the past, he would give me a verbal list for something, and I would say 'write it down' and he would be very disrespectful about that, why do I need to write down a list of 5 simple things? Now he fully understands why.

I would tell you to approach this forgetfulness with your wife in a different manner. I do not see it as a 'habit' that can be fixed. But there ARE habits that can be embraced to manage and cope with it. You should work together to find ways to cope instead of disrespectfully judging her for forgetting papers on the table.

But as Prisca has said, none of this matters or can be resolved unless you change your attitude. Your anger and negativity is evident in every post you write.

Prisca is right. Until you make significant progress with how you react when frustrated, you can't address your problems with your wife's behavior.

Your most recent post clearly shows how you react to your wife's shortcomings. A habit of reacting with anger to your wife's annoying behavior will automatically obstruct solving the problem. Right now, your contemptuous attitude is the most significant obstacle to a great marriage. This way of relating is unsustainable for both you and the marriage.

If you can learn to stop judging her brain differences and start calming yourself, you might get yourself to a position where you come to the relationship having goodwill. Your complaints are valid but you are seething with contempt and anger. It is pouring out in your posts.

Dr. Harley told me once that I should be so able to control my physical response to frustration that opposers could spit on me and I would be able to instantly calm myself and not get upset. (He has had that experience personally while testifying in congress.)

When you are in the habit of being frustrated, your brain needs to build new relaxation pathways instead of using the same angry ruts. It takes lots of practice to not get upset when your spouse offends you over and over with the same stuff. Trust me, I know. And getting angry essentially diverts the attention away from the problem and onto your lack of composure.

Just because your wife has "absentminded professor" tendencies doesn't give you the right to allow anger. There are other options like immediate relaxation in the moment of stress and frustration

FYI this is incorrect and a disrespectful judgement. This is like saying all people with 'focus issues' (ADD labeled or otherwise) are not bright. There is absolutely NO evidence to support that self created theory.

You mean the incident when you locked her outside in the rain to punish her, yes we know. Dr Harley said it didn't matter what she had done - he was focused (rightly so) on your reaction.

You DO NOT have the right to treat your W this way, PERIOD. It doesn't matter what she did. That's Step 1 in managing your lovebusters. I am amazed you are here still trying to get us to "see" what she did and still trying to justify your behavior.

Your W should expect more of the same (AOs and DJs).

Is your wife back living with you now?

You realize that you are speaking to many BSs who have Plan A'd their WS for a period of weeks and sometimes months and years??

That means no lovebusters in the face of an active affair being flaunted right in your face at times, among other really crazy wayward behavior.

We are not ignorant to how difficult it can be to reign in AOs and DJs in the face of really frustrating behavior. We GET it.

What you don't GET is that you don't have an excuse for your lovebusters. As long as you believe that, you are not going to get this marriage-wrecking behavior under control.

Yes.


Not really, I haven't had a single AO in a week, and working on identifying DJs. I wanted to know alternatives to approach this because this takes enormous amount of re-emphasis and effort.

I don't understand what you mean. Did you come to MB hoping to find an alternative to MB methods?

That probably is not what you meant, so perhaps you can give me a clue about what you meant by "alternatives". Such as what?

First, I'm glad to see you sticking around and actually reading the posts here. It shows that you are concerned about this on some level.

On the books, you had asked about more reading on Disrespectful Judgements. This is covered in the book "Lovebusters" so I would study that if you want to learn more there.

On the affair exposure..."behind the back" is not the right way to describe it. Things like affairs or threats/abuse are situations where the spouse on the receiving end of the misbehavior requires outside help and support in order to address the problem. It's a big enough problem that the spouse who is doing the misbehaving is not a reliable source of help in resolving the situation, so their consent (or lack thereof) is basically meaningless. Besides, most of us here confronted our spouses on some level when we were being cheated on (many BSes are suspicious before they have the smoking gun) and heard nothing but DENIAL. Your wife did not go behind your back because I'm certain that she had communicated her unhappiness with your behavior to your face and you didn't stop it, so it wasn't going to help the situation to continue asking you for help with it. The problem was bigger than she could fix on her own and she sought help. That is not betrayal, that is desperation.

On the forgetfulness....

There are many forms and areas of intelligence, and just because she excels in some does not mean she will excel in all. Nobody does. Just look at the whole left brained-right brained concept.

As some others have chimed in, you can be very smart and also absent minded or less bright in another area.

I write computer programs, design and audit computer networks, etc....and I lose my keys (among other things) fairly frequently or lock them in the car like an idiot. Both of my parents have graduate degrees and are very successful in their careers, but my dad can't even change his own oil in his car, and my mom would get lost trying to find her way out of a parking lot.

I know a lot of people who never lose anything, but couldn't even begin to have to focus or concentration required to write a computer program from start to finish or fix networking problems the way I do. And that's what they tell me themselves when they've watched me work. Nonetheless, I am certain they are skilled in many areas I am not. My dad is best guy I know to take anywhere you have to navigate by map (which I am terrible at), but I can take car engines apart/put them back together and he wouldn't have the first clue. We're all different.

So it's a huge DJ to say "she is capable of X and she's not doing it...I know." Not your place to say that. Not a winning strategy for that problem, so drop it.

Some of what you're describing with her behavior that bothers you I think falls into the category of an annoying habit which is a Lovebuster, but you can't respond with another Lovebuster (DJ). If you feel hurt by her behavior, you have a right to feel that way, but you need to communicate that without being disrespectful.

To do that, do not:

- Tell her what she's thinking or make assumptions about her (motivations, capabilities, etc)

- Make comparisons or use metaphors to create an INSULT, which is inherently disrespectful

- Make assumptions about how she would react to something or what she would or wouldn't be doing if she cared for you/loved you/was concentrating/insert your expectation here. This goes back to not assuming what she is thinking.

- Exaggerate or be sarcastic.

Instead, just tell her what she did that bothered you, and how it makes you feel. That's it. No games, no punishment, no hyperbole or one-ups-manship. You communicate the facts to her in a composed manner and leave out all of the other junk.

A week is progress, but it is not a long time by any stretch of the imagination. You cannot consider AOs eliminated just yet.

Identify a DJ each time it happens and speak out then immediately vs Write them down without a word and discuss all of them once a week.

And Axligster95, off course I am concerned. I have a promise to keep plus I recently chose to forgive my wife for her affair, which by the way feels like taking the rocks off your heart, so I am not posting because I want to make friends, specially in a forum where I have been attacked by some posters (not all, some have been helpful). I'll read that chapter again.

ProChoice - you could be describing me.

Ever hear of the absentminded professor? The idiot-savant?

I'm no scientist, but I am a computer programmer and business owner (which is successful when I remember to invoice people...) I am SMART. But I am also so spacey it's hard to describe. And it's relentless. One minute something is in my hand, the next it's not. Just today I caught myself daydreaming while my husband was talking and I tried to refocus, but within a second, I realized I'd started thinking about how bad my attention span is and how I need to pay attention - instead of listening to what he was saying! I'll give a good illustration of how bad it can be below.

BUT... I want to say, please understand that everyone has their shortcomings and just because your wife is super smart does not mean she is deliberately forgetting things. In fact, ADD seems to go hand in hand with being smart - the mind being on things other than what one is physically doing.

One thing I have noticed with me is that stress totally exacerbates how spacey I am. So, I am stressed by personal problems in my marriage, and I get even spacier, which annoys my husband, which stresses me out more, which makes me even more panicked about it and spacier. It's a vicious cycle. (Though my husband sometimes gets annoyed but he never punishes me, he just tries to laugh it off and focus on the fact that my spaciness comes with the blessing that my attention span is too short to hold a grudge or sweat small things in general. He jokes that he could buy a new car and I wouldn't even notice. Which is quite possibly literally true.)

Also know that I feel terrible and embarrassed about being so spacey and I bet your wife does too. Why would she leave the papers behind or leave the door open on purpose? Don't you think she would stop that if she felt she could?

My point is, I know it's annoying, but if you don't interpret her spaciness as "she doesn't care about me" it may be easier for you to not get angry with her over it.

There may be things she can do to improve, I'm trying meditation and exercise, but until she feels safe and loved as she is, she'll probably be too tense and preoccupied for things like this to work.

Here is my worst story just to put your wife in perspective:

I talking on my cell phone with my husband when I was at the dog park. Suddenly a friend came up and wanted to take a picture with me. I said "Hang on" to hubby and slid my phone in my pocket. They took the picture. Then we started talking. And laughing. And talking...

Suddenly I remember I was talking with my husband, but I had no idea why my phone was in my pocket. I felt this horrible wave of guilt and shame go over me. I picked the phone back up and hubby was like - WTH happened? I felt so bad for him but I literally didn't remember why I put the phone in my pocket in the middle of a sentence. I felt like an incompetent imbecile. I didn't know what to say and there were all these friends around, so I liked and said the dog got loose, thinking I'd fess up later. Of course he said "No they didn't. I just sat here listening to you talk with people for five minutes."

I felt so bad and so guilty but I really didn't know what had happened. I thought - who does that? What is wrong with me? Later I kept thinking about it and finally remembered the picture taking incident.

The main point is that I feel horrible and ashamed when I do those things and I imagine your wife does too. But they are not conscious actions/choices. Yes, improvement may be possible, but it is the way your wife is wired and not something she can just "stop doing" overnight, and punishing her will probably stress her out and make it worse instead of better.

Something else to think about - my husband is also sarcastic and used to ridicule me all the time. My "idiocy" was the butt of almost every joke. Like I think you said before about yourself, that is his humor/style, but at some point it went from funny to very hurtful to me. It really started to affect my self esteem. Everyone else thought I was brilliant but I felt bad about myself when I was around my husband. You don't need the point of comparison of an affair to realize you feel better about yourself with everyone other than your spouse... He has pretty much stopped that thanks to MB and I feel great relief and I like being around him a lot more.

**EDIT**

If you can talk to her immediately about it without being disrespectful, do that. If you begin to get angry trying to talk to her immediately about, then do not. Wait until you can talk to her about it without getting angry. Making a big list and then having a once a week discussion about it might make her feel ambushed.

My comment about seriousness was not meant as a cheap shot. You have consistently been combative and dismissive with the members here which makes it hard to consider your approach serious.

Nobody really posts here to make friends, and as I read that I wonder if you think that your wife was posting here to make friends? As if that's a difference between you two?

People come here because they are desperate and their world is falling apart, and they want help. And the ones who are serious accept the help that is given to them.

Also, who is working on identifying your DJs?

You need to notify the moderators and ask to have your thread moved. I doubt they would honor your request, though, because you are nowhere close to recovery.

This WILL NOT WORK.
Follow the program.
Write the DJs down on the worksheet, and share them once a week.
DO NOT discuss them when they happen. This will only lead to disaster.

Do NOT do this.

Ax, you are giving advice contrary to Dr. Harley's program.

You don't make a big list and then have a big discussion. You just pass the list. The list has all the information that is needed, and there doesn't need to be a discussion about it.

ProChoice,

This self-help approach you are trying is not going to work. Too many years on your part of disrespect, violence and independent (secretive) behavior on your part to change and improve on your own. You don't have to try to convince anyone on here as to your good intentions and give promises that you have changed - the only important people to PROVE it to are your wife and your kids, and of course, yourself.

Tom

I respect you and markos more than pretty much anyone on the board with regards to this particular topic, so the following statement is seeking clarification rather than offering an objection to your comments:

I've heard many times both on the radio show and on here that respectful complaining is a prerequisite for a marriage of extraordinary care and also the policy of radical honesty. I've similarly heard repeatedly if the spouse is an emotional person that they need to remove themselves from the situation to calm down first, and then address the issue when they can do so without lovebusting.

If a spouse immediately complains about a lovebusting behavior without being disrespectful, how is this contrary to the MB program? Is complaining about it conversationally contrary to the MB program even if it is respectful? Or is it more doing it promptly that is wrong?

Very few couples who are going through the program can complain face to face without it leading to a fight. Dr. Harley has provided lovebuster forms for the couple to use. Whenever a spouse lovebusts the other, he or she does not respond immediately to the lovebusting. Instead, he or she writes the incident on the form with a date and short description. Once a week, the couple shares their lovebuster form with the other. They are not to discuss it. It is for information only.

This method protects the couple that struggle with lovebusters from punishing each other. It is a safe way to pass information on.

Even today, markos and I do not discuss lovebusters face to face (rare that they may be now). We stick to written communication. It's safer.

Prochoice is a man who struggles with angry outbursts, disrespect and demands. He is in no position to discuss lovebusters with his wife face to face. She needs the protection of written communication: Dr. Harley's forms. Anything else is just an avenue for him to continue to lovebust her.

And he really can't complain at all until his angry outbursts are eliminated altogether. Nothing else can be solved as long as that problem is in the marriage.

That all makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

I have been doing everything I have been told, no good.

What if I think my wife is currently having an affair but I can't prove it. She stopped texting me, she stopped waking up to have breakfast with me, she started avoiding me, she cancelled our date, she called our baby sitter and asked her not to come and:

She just handed me divorce papers yesterday to read.

I said lets talk about it. She said NO, I'm done. I tried to give her a kiss and she said to stop depositing love units in her love bank. Wasn't that the point? I asked, she said not that way. I don't get it if she isn't clear.

What is your question for us?

I don't know. None, I guess. It is what it is then.

Prochoice,

what is the readon you should think your wife has an affair? She did not make any alarm bells ring in that respect before she stopped posting. It is sensible to want to be on the safe side, but in your case I would rather be very careful to avoid anything that will negatively affect your love bank balance in her account, if you are serious about saving your family.

How are you doing? Have you managed to find a good anger management course yet?

Of course you have every right to take the high road and let your wife go, as the damage to your relationship has been severe in the past. Still, either for you current, or for any future relationship, following the MB program in combination with anger management will be extremely valuable to you.

Do you hear MB radio daily? Although not every program is directly relevant to your situation, you can learn a new way of insight in the situations of other people, that will help you in the long run.

Wether your wife leaves you because of the love busters and your anger problem or over somebody else, the remedy is the same:
You have the privilege to become a better man, who has himself 100% under control. A rock, other people look up to. A person who behaves with integrity and empathy at home where nobody can see him just as he does where anybody can see him.

Regardless of anything else, your wife and your family are hurt. You can find the strenght to heal the situation by becoming a better person. By doing away with the dark side and becoming a true, compassionate hero in this story.
Whatever the circumstances, you can become a person who walks upright, because he does what is right, not what serves himself.

Thank you happyheart for actually posting back. I think it is unfair.
I think she is having an affair because she is acting exactly like she did when she had one. She started avoiding me last week, so I left her alone until I saw she was ignoring me more and more and walking away from me when I walked close to her. She did exactly that 5 years ago, except that 5 years ago, i went after her and moved to an entirely new country, leaving my job and parents behind. I never suspected an affair then, because we were together 24/7 yet she was in full affair. Now she has more reasons. we are no longer together all day. she has access to unlimited computers at the University AND because she is the only female in her research group.

You keep ignoring everyone's question about this.

Are you in anger management? Have you found an anger management program?

That's great but it is more important to find out if the proven cheater is at it again. Why don't we find out if the known tramp is acting up before we kill her husband.

A FWW is a "known tramp"?

So, how are things between you and Trueform, Late?

What an ironic post.

Because we're more concerned about whether the known "threaten to kill her in front of their children" abusive husband has made any serious efforts to make himself safe to a wife we advised to leave him out of grave concern for her safety and that of their children.

PC,

I'm sorry to hear you have been handed divorce papers. And I do understand your concern about your wife having an affair. I'm sure you have triggers like the rest of us BSes that are setting off alarms because they take you back to her first affair in your mind.

BUT

It's also possible that what has happened is what everyone here was warning the both of your would happen if you did not stay separated long enough for you to be able to change destructive habits and behaviors.

It's true that your wife has cheated before, but what's also true is that you tend to minimize and dismiss what is very alarming behavior to your wife and the rest of us.

Your wife is human and reading in your post the only concern I see in your words is that this is her fault. This makes me think that you may have simply pushed her past her limits.

Sorry to be harsh but it's difficult to read you say "I have been doing everything I have been told" because that is not even slightly true. The two of you would not even be living together right now if you had any serious intentions of following the advice given here. You have cherry picked what advice you would even acknowledge here from the very beginning.

L, Dr Hs first priority is to eliminate lovebusters. If your spouse is cheating it's even more important you don't pour oil on fire.

An angry person is an insane person incapable of resolving or checking on marital problems. Infidelity (if there is any) requires a cool head.

Prochoice,


How have things been going since you have reconciled?
Have you tried and/or succeeded in removing the love busters from your repertoire?

for your wife, you have been a very difficult person to live with. You have told us, that you have continued to punish your wife in the past, while she was practictically begging you for forgiveness and some crumbs of love.
In your quest for justice (that is not effective, because you cannot change the past), you have been abusive and the two of you were separated. You have reconciled hastily, although it was recommended that you wait until you had absolved anger management and practised to have a positive relationship with your wife without love busters.

The difficult point in your relationship is, that your wife has been starved for kindness and love for a long long time. It is clear that you have been meaning to punish her, because you wanted to even out the things that have been hurtful to you in your perception. The downside from that is showing now:
1. you have been getting angrier instead of more loving during the course of that "punishment"
2. your wife is more starved for love and affection than ever before.

Good boundaries to people of the opposite sex are necessary in a good relationship. But if you are starved for some of the most important emotional needs at home, it is much harder not to react to little acts of kindness that are part of normal human interaction at work.

I am not sure she is having an affair at work. The other possibility could be, that there have been more love busters than you are even aware of. Or, the love bank deposits may not have been enough to even out the events of the past. If her love bank has been so low and you have scared her in the past, that in itself may have been enough to have her think about divorce, when there is no solution (in her opninion) in sight.

Please think about the events of the past months and about the things you could have done better. I really hope that you have slipped up here and there (which is human), because that gives you the possibility to change something yourself. Whereas if she decides to divorce, while you have been a perfect husband, there would not be much you can do.

Do not focus on her behaviour right now. Just look at your own possibilities to make positive changes. If you cannot come up with things to improve at the moment, think about things people tell you who are angry with you. Friends or enemies who are angry give us valuable information about our shortcomings, because they are honest in those moments. At other times they will be too polite to tell you the things which unnerve them about you.

Focus on your strength in making yourself take the high road.

My bad. I'm still very hypersensitive to WS's and FWS's blaming BS's for their behavior. Things are OK and improving with time.

Did you see the FWS doing that? If so, where?

If you're prepared to refer to her as a "known tramp", that is how you must refer to your wife, also.

Your right and I apologize for that and for distracting the thread.

I realized what it was, and I made things right. We are back in the game.

I was being honest with her to my opinion about us. I enjoy her company so much, and love being around her, but I am not in love with her, and nor she is in love with me. That is obvious. That truth is what kicked her off limits. And she has kept asking me about it, so I was more honest. I don't think we ever loved each other. We were best friends and had great times together, and there was no one in the world I would have rather been with than her, but it wasn't love, and she got upset at the truth. If we had loved each other, we wouldn't have hurt each other.
I told her she was attracted to her ex, she would always glance at him during class, and she is attracted to him now and her heart beat would start if she saw him, just as I am attracted to my ex.

I won't get into those conversations, which is an honest way to get her thoughts and mine out calmly. It's not bringing up the affair. Its being honest about our feelings.

I have been loving and kind and have shifted my AO away. DJ, some are there, she has kept writing them down. So we are good to go now.

I have completed anger management in the past. I chose not to apply it before, and I chose to apply it now. I am calmer than ever and calmer than her actually.

You are right that conversations like that will only lose love units on both sides. It really is only a discussion about your and her definition of "love" or "in love" and will not bring you closer together. Although it is obvious to you that you hurt her by bringing it up, it is probably hurting your own healing, happiness and mindset more than you know.

It is very good that you have decided to implement anger management rigorously. Allthough you are making good progress by sheer determination, it will take longer to change your brain circuits. After having implemented anger management diligently, the goal is to put the energy that went into anger (your reptile brain) in the past, to your intelligent problem solving part of the brain. To make this automatic takes months at least and there will certainly be times where you are tempted.

You have a lot to win by having a happy life with your wife, not a merely mediocre life. If you have the financial resources, wouldn't it be an option to counsel with the Harley's? They could assist you in staying on track, because in a family with children and jobs, there are always things that happen unexpectedly and can throw you of course somewhat.

I assume it would be in your best interest, if you could leave these stressful times behind and not deal with the hassle of (almost) divorce and its unfortunate effect on you and the girls.
Once you are thoroughly happy together, your whole life will be easier.

Prochoice,

how are the two of you doing?
Are you keeping up the quality management of your relationship by asking your wife for feedback on things that will fill her love bank, or will lose love units?

How is your anger management doing? Everyday stresses can throw the best plans off track. Do you have a plan in case you are having setbacks? Changing brain hardware is hard work and can be frustrating, especially in the beginning.

Are the two of you applying undivided attention? And what do you do? Have you found activities that you both enjoy?

How are you doing in refraining from love busters? It must be difficult, because there was a longer period where these had become a habit. Have you asked your wife if she has complaints and do you have the impression that she feels safe giving you honest feedback?

not good. I have felt too much pressure and I just unintentionally exploded last night.

that has never been a problem. She likes everything. I am actually concerned she finds me boring because I have a limited list but I have taken her to the rollercoaster already because she always wanted to. I am sort of weird. I don't like to be where there are too many people around, where its too hot, or where walking is involved. I only like to be home. So its only dinner for me and her list was huge, I turned all of them down, so I replaced it by setting candles at home, putting petals in the bath tub and staging our patio. She said its fine but I always have in mind she is actually bored not telling me.

doing better, but We had an episode last night. I am on hold and was checking if she had posted. I realized late I had snapped.

Are you in an actual anger management program?
Are you using Dr. Harley's relaxation training exercises?

Completed AM in the past and yes doing relaxation exercises. You see, avoiding getting angry is a conscious decision for me to apply relaxation. And it was working under smaller non consecutive issues.
Since I last had posted before, I went the entire month planning daily how to make my wife feel loved and in the month we stumbled upon cases such as she scratched another car, she was late, she forgot to turn off the oven, she got a speeding ticket and did not tell me about it ( I know because I have my ways - private ways), and in regular circumstances I would have gotten mad in the past and I didn't. I consciously changed the focus in my brain and thought about my plans for home improvements, which lifts me up thinking of a better home. And it was working.
Now, she forgot to call the babysitter on time, and I didn't get mad, I went out to relax and get some intake food, and when I returned the house was flooded. I hadn't fully relaxed yet and now walk into water and upon this situation, I had no time to relax before I talked. I asked her what had happened and she said that she would clean it. That was not my question and the water situation already had gotten me mad, her answer was a DJ. She is telling me "you dont need to know because i will clean it". So out of anger I told her she was an awful careless wife, and mother and that I had faked loving her all this tome and least she could do was answer and I asked again and she didn't answer and went into the bathroom to clean, so I followed her and I closed the door and locked it and said answer me. She looked away and I lost myself and grabbed her towards the wall by force and then I remembered and said I didn't want this to ever happen again. why did you push me to my limits? And i walked away to calm down. when I came back, the house was clean and she was locked in the room again and a letter explanation how the house got flooded... she had left the bathtub water running by The usual... She forgot. So, all my past month has been useless and we are back to zero?
I forgot to relax that day.

You see my relaxation thought was house improvement and walking into a flooded house also blocked my relaxation thought.

And BTW this is the first post I am not minimizing what happened.

Other than the advise to separate, which sleeping in separate rooms and not talking is anyways, what should I do if she doesn't want to tslk to me anymore again. Should I pursue or leave her alone for a while?

Yes you did have time. But you made the decision to stay and talk before you were relaxed.

Wait a minute, what made you mad?
What MADE you mad?
Hint: It wasn't the water situation, and it definitely wasn't your wife.

Sooooo .... that gave you the right to punish her?

As long as you reserve the right to respond this way when you face a frustrating situation, your wife will never be safe.

You are still blaming your wife for only what YOU can control. She didn't push you to your limits. She didn't make you have an AO. You, and you alone, chose to go down that path.


Yep. And don't you dare blame her for that.

You need to improve your relaxation exercises. Follow what Dr. Harley advises here:

Note that you should be working up to being able to think of stressful situations while being able to control the adrenaline.

Do you own a GSR meter? Do you practice with it daily?

Also, read the Angry Outburst chapter in Lovebusters again.

If you can't keep your hands off your wife, you need to leave the house. It isn't safe for her to be there with you.

Markos and I had an agreement (in writing, and signed) that if he ever had an angry outburst at me again, he would leave the house for at least a year while he got help.

He has never had an angry outburst again.

You should offer that agreement to your wife.

Let me break down the steps for you.
1. Learn to manipulate the GSR meter by alternating between thinking of stressful thoughts and thinking of relaxing thoughts.

2. Using the meter, learn to stay relaxed WHILE thinking of stressful thoughts.

3. Using the meter, learn to stay relaxed WHILE talking about problems with your wife.

Each step is more complicated than the last, and takes a lot of practice. But it's essential that you go through these steps, one by one.

You are on step 1, btw.

Prisca, I tried to tell the story in the least self justifying way possible and without minimizing and yet I read by your response how I am still justifying. I am not the same poster that started this thread. i've grown to become the family's head or at least trying to. I don't feel entitled to punish, but I felt as though my old self possessed me. I have relaxed in all previous episodes, including her being 15 minutes late on my limited 30 min lunch break, and I relaxed and only wrote that down as love busting exchange letters and with this water thing I should have walked away but I didn't with fear there could be a pipe broken that needed urgent hands on and when I realized it was a running water accident, my old self had already possessed me.

I think I'll do what you said, I'll get that device and propose I leave if any more AO I will be the one who packs up and leaves. With the lovebusting sort of under control we were doing so good, i felt connected to her in a deep way.

You should have walked away, anyway. In order to protect your wife, you need to make sure you go to extraordinary lengths to never have another angry outburst. Even if that means a broken pipe floods the house for an extra 30 minutes. Walk away and take the time to calm down.

A flooded house is much easier to repair than the devastation left after an angry outburst.

Dr. Harley told markos that sometimes he just needed to sit there and look dopey. You don't need to react immediately. Walk away and calm down.

And start doing those exercises so that someday down the road you can face the situation of her leaving the bath running and instantly react calmly.

Do you realize just how threatening and abusive you are being? This is not just about losing your cool. I don't know that you fully grasp the magnitude of the things you do and say to your wife.

Locking her in the bathroom with you and cornering her with threats while you are *insane* is abusive and threatening. I can only imagine what is going through her head at the moment, like a caged animal. I would have kicked you in the ***s and fled the house, because I would have felt my life was being threatened.

And that does not even take into consideration the VERBAL attack.

You have fought hard to stay in your home while you worked out your own anger issues without help. This is a very very selfish decision as you continue to put your wife at risk, not to mention destroy any hope of a marriage that you have.

It's very clear from your post: You still feel entitled to your anger. If the reason is "good" enough, than your anger is justified.

My son left an upstairs bathroom faucet running, and I came home to a water damage on three levels of my home - over $20k and 3-4 mos of repair work that had to be done. At the time I was under EXTREME stress - having just recently learned that my then-husband had moved into another woman's house, he was starting to screw with me financially and that I was going to have to file for divorce.

I did not have an AO. Not even close to one.

Your problem with your AOs is very dangerous, and I am in real fear for your W and your family. I think Dr Harley would suggest you move out NOW and not return until you have this under better control.

I think you are playing with fire and shouldn't take any more risks with your M and your family's safety.

Will you write and as Dr Harley about this? Tell him some forum members think you should move out now because this has become a safety issue but you feel you can stay and will leave if there are any more AOs. Make sure to tell him what happened during the last AO. See what he advises.

STOP TALKING ABOUT HER AFFAIR. STOP IT.

If you want to recover, YOU MUST STOP IT.

She has every right to separate from you because of your AOs, regardless of whether or not she had an affair in the past. Your anger put her in that position -- and to protect her, you must allow her that right.

Fine Prisca, post deleted. I was only rxplaining the connection between separation and affair.

Fine, but if you want your marriage to recover, don't talk about the affair.

I'll post back when there is progress on my side.

This is a question for Prisca and Markos.

After you both signed the agreement that next AO Markos would leave the house for a year, were you two dating and talking and recovering and fulfilling each other's EN?

We signed the document, but my wife isn't talking to me unless it is something related to daughters. I invited her out and tried to kiss her and she backed out and she highlighted we can stay in the same household that's all we have actually signed and we are inder the same roof but she is emotionally divorced. I asked her what that meant and she said that we'll be together until our daughters are 18 then we can split. Okay, that doesn't sound encouraging.

Then I said lets split right now then and she said okay, so I said lets divorce then and she said okay, so I said okay we divorce but w/ the condition that you can't date anyone and if you do, I get the girls and she said okay. So all her answers are okay. Okay stay, okay leave, okay divorce. in the house everything is also okay. Isn't what she was taught to not punish?

I didn't feel like trying this program at first and I did. Just slipped, didn't get that the GSR but now I did, with biofeedback and a CD but whats the point in doing it if she won't talk to me. What am I supposed to do now?

I asked if we separate if we would date. She answered that if I stay, leave or divorce, she decided to pursue her career. Triggering for me. Same words from the past, but fine, Prisca, I am not writing it down. Pursue what??? She is almost done. What is the point of studying so much? But fine, no DJ of the millions of thoughts I have regarding that. I personally think its time for her to get a job and leave research which pays a missery, but thats my thought. At the moment I don't know what to do because I called her and asked how she was. She replied busy, I have work to do. Work with your little boy friends I replied. Work with my research group and hanged up. Okay, maybe that was DJ, both sides though. She hanged up on me.

I can't help but visualize her at work, obsessed? Possessive? Yes. After all, she is my wife, she is "emotionally divorced" and she is in a male only environment. Markos and Prisca, What now?

In actual fact it took awhile. Prisca worked really hard while I was out of the house to be a very attractive wife and meet my emotional needs. But after I was back in my balance in my account in her love bank was so low that there were many times she didn't feel willing to meet my emotional needs. It was up and down for quite awhile. When I got to despairing about this, I got my doctor to put me on antidepressant medication, which helped me to hold out and meet her emotional needs long enough to change things permanently.


Right now your balance in your account in your wife's love bank is below zero.

The good news is, if you completely eliminate withdrawals and learn to make large love bank deposits as a habit, you have the chance to change this. You'll have to win her back.

I recommend antidepressants and listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show daily. Also, look at the advice I give to other men to learn how to make more love bank deposits.


Don't do that! If she wants to divorce you, let her do it without discussing it with you. Discussing divorce will make withdrawals from your account in her Love Bank.

Just tell her you don't want to get divorced.

If you decide you do want to get divorced, don't discuss it with her. Just go get a divorce. It's easy.

You'll have to change how she feels.

Marriage Builders is a plan for doing that. In fact, you've already done it before! And you can do it again.

It will be frustrating with her being not willing to talk to you, but if you act upset with her it will make love bank withdrawals. So the only way to turn it around is to just keep inviting her to do stuff with you and be with you. Let her decline. ALWAYS ALWAYS let her decline to talk to you if she wants, decline to be with you if she wants, back out on whatever she agreed to do with you if she wants. Don't try to debate with her or tell her she should be talking to you or she should be giving you a chance - telling her what she should do is judgmental and will make a withdrawal from your account in her love bank, which is the opposite of what you want.

After a few ups and downs you start to realize that you've turned her feelings around before and you can do it again. That will help you to feel less frustrated.

If you can't keep a lid on the frustration, and you are starting to get demanding, disrespectful, or angry, see your doctor and get some short term antidepressants prescribed so you can control yourself until you've improved the situation by following the plan.

So you're still bringing up the affair, I see ....

ProChoice, you've got a lot of work to do, and you keep sabotaging yourself by making little jabs like this one.

If you're going to keep bringing up the past, or if you're going to keep threatening divorce, then you might as well just get a divorce right now. You're never going to win her back that way.

You had a HUGE angry outburst just a short time ago. I can tell you from experience that the occasional angry outbursts AFTER my husband agreed to do the program and agreed to protect me were WORSE than they were when he would have angry outbursts every day. It was the ultimate betrayal of trust in my mind when he had agreed to protect me, then attacked me anyway.

You've got a long way to go to repair the damage you've done. But you continue to inflict MORE damage. If you can't reign yourself in immediately, separate and protect your wife from yourself.

That's a judgmental thought. You need to get out of the habit of saying things like that, even when you are not talking to her. Any statements about what she "should" do is disrespectful. She is a big girl and can decide for herself what she wants to do and can decide afterward if she's pleased with the decision or not.

You could say "You might be able to earn more money doing something besides research," and then she could decide if that means anything to her or not. Let the decision be hers. She may not care about more money. She definitely doesn't want you to try to educate her! That's judgmental.


OUCH! DON'T FIGHT WITH HER.

It's like you have an arsenal of nuclear weapons, and here you sent one off. Do you know who wins when there's a nuclear war? (Hint: nobody.)

Stuff like this only makes it worse. If you want her to talk to you and let you work to recover your marriage, this kind of thing will make her take LONGER to let you do that.

If you want to change her feelings, you'll need to completely eliminate love bank withdrawals like this. If you don't feel like doing that, just go get a divorce without talking to her about it. Or take antidepressants.


Just focus on your side. If you make withdrawals, it doesn't matter if she makes withdrawals or not. It still makes it take LONGER for her feelings to change.

It might be "fair" for both sides to get to make withdrawals, but every withdrawal is STUPID, fair or not, if you want her to start spending time with you and bring the good times back.

PC, can I make a humble observation? From following this thread, I see you making a determination to change time and time again, and then when you slip up, you get frustrated with your wife for reacting negatively to your slip up. It's unreasonable for you to get angry at her for getting angry at you when her anger is completely justified.

I can see that she makes mistakes that are admittedly very frustrating (like leaving the water running and forgetting). The thing is, her mistakes are not marriage-ending mistakes, yours are. Her past affair is not a trump card.

I encourage you to focus on your AO's and stop throwing up your hands and deciding to give up when you mess up and she naturally gets upset. Markos and Prisca have helped me to realize that my own AO's were enough to justify divorce. I encourage you to stop and think about how destructive AO's are and vow never to have another one. Also realize that your wife is justified in divorcing you over them and that every AO is another reason why she should divorce you.

Your wife's affair was inexcusable, but your multiple and ongoing AO's are just as inexcusable. I say this as someone who is already divorced, so my opinions are worth less than dirt, but I thought it might help, since I'm someone (like Markos) who has had a tendency for AO's.

Awesome post, nmwb!!

Prochoice,

do not get discouraged. You have begun your journey on the road that will lead your family out of this mess and unto better horizons. Your taking the high road in this difficult situation has resonated with your wife and her reactions were filled with hopefulness and the expectation that you would be strong and the two of you would be happy.
Because of this optimism it is natural that she would be extra shocked when your taker let you slip up.

You have expected a lot of yourself. You have tried to suppress your angry outbursts, but it takes time to get this habit so ingrained in your brain, that the angry outburst part of your brain takes the back seat to the intelligent part of the brain.

Not the person who does everything right the first time will win the prize. The real heroes are the ones who slip up, stumble, fall, but not keep lying in the dirt. The truely succesful are the ones who get up, pat the dirt from their clothes and learn from their mistakes. One mistake, even a grand and impressive one, does not make you a failure. On the contrary, you will be better prepared for the pitfalls ahead, when you take this as a warning and analyze the situation for things that YOU will do differently next time, as you are the only one you can control.

As you have experienced, your wife is not in the position to turn your marriage around at this point. Don't let her lack of enthusiasm right now throw you off track. She is in withdrawal and you can expect her to feel that the two of you will never work and she won't have any of it.

This would be distressing to anyone, but do not let it get to you too much, it is a distraction if you let yourself be drawn into fruitless discussions with her. You have every chance to succeed. You are the one she loved and married and you are the father of her children. No man could ever make her as happy as you once your marriage is back on track and better than before.
Logic is on your side (don't tell her) and you have already shown that you are very able to make your marriage better.

On angry outbursts
The treacherous thing about angry outburts is that they sneak up on you when you do not expect it. Once anger overtakes your brain, not only is your intelligence out of order, but you feel totally and utterly justified in what happens after that. Once you are overwhelmed with anger, you feel that you not only have the right, but practically the moral obligation to punish the object of your anger (that worm brought it on himself of course). At this point, self control is out of the window, because anger tells us we are justified in shooting and killing the enemy.

If we could only see ourselves in this position, if our work colleagues could see us... we would be utterly embarrassed of the things we say and do in anger. But in the moment, and that is the thing, WE FEEL GOOD. Anger feels justified and good. We are on top of it all, all knowing, mighty, our muscles strong and our senses sharpened. That is why it is so enticing.

Just ask someone who stormed into the principal's office not long ago to give her a piece of my mind. I felt extremely intelligent and justified after I told her what I thought of her decisions regarding my child and slamming the door behind me.
It felt somehow less good when I apologized for my outburst two days later, after I realized I must have looked like an idiot, and frankly I was. The downside of anger: no matter how dumb her decision was and no matter how justified my case was, reacting in anger made ME the one who had to apologize and weakened my case considerably. Also, she never looked at me quite the same...
Anger makes us look like idiots.

That is why Prisca is right. Unless and until you nip the anger in the bud and are able to relax and have your intelligent brain think it over, you are still in stage one (as am I, buying a sensor from amazon will be my next step I presume).
Your anger feels good, but once it subsides, your intelligence looks around and sees the damage that has been done so needlessly. You want your hard work to bear fruits, but anger chops off the entire tree to kill a louse.

Do keep up your good work. You may not see the results right away, but you are not here to win the battle, you are here to strategically win the war. Studying for tests is no pleasure, but you do it, because attaining a degree brings a better life later on.
Do not lose sight of your ultimate goal. A happy family for your (3) girls and a good relationship where your needs will be met and you will feel good, knowing that you led your family through hardship to better times.

I compare this program to telling someone who wants to loose weight to limit the amount of calories, exercise, drink a lot of water, etc. Off course all that will work. I'm quite sure if we both followed this program, we would heal, but doing so is harder than what it sounds.

Many people might say its been 5 years, move one, recover or divorce. But it isn't time that heals obviously. Every time she does something wrong, like even not observing my shirt was stained, the affair topic comes to my head.

She rented her own apartment, and long story short, I got her to stay and cancel the agreement. I talked to her to see what she thinks of us retrying one more time. She answered something that left me thinking: Until when will you be retrying? I do see her emotionally drifting, so I know I have to stop bringing the affair up everytime she does something, but I don't know how to deal with this, most times it pops out without warning, GSR2 isn't helping.

This is the first time ever I hear it is good to repress your anger. GSR2 is helping with keeping calm, but isn't helping with the intruding thoughts. What else is there? I consciously know that one thing is unrelated to another, that present time there is no affair, that anger gets things worse, that it is me who controls my anger, etc, etc. I consciously got convinced of all that, but subconsciously, I guess I don't.

So:
1) How do I stop intrusive thoughts from popping each time she does something wrong? It doesn't pop when we peacefully "talk about it", but only when there is something going wrong.

2) How do I forgive her not just superficially, but from the heart?

3) What do I do if I accidentally mention the affair and she withdraws temporarily.

4) What do I do if I say a DJ and she looks at me, and says she wants to go and clean what is already clean, or play with our daughters. She tends to leave and cancel UA time. Meaning, we are getting less and less time. We have spent only 2 hours UA last week.

First, you need to change your thinking. Not noticing that there is a stain on your shirt is not inherently wrong. It may bother you, but it's not WRONG. Stop being judgmental.

This will not be possible until you eliminate your anger.

Don't accidentally mention the affair.

Don't say a DJ.

And don't expect UA when you keep abusing her.

Since you've had another AO, you need to move out. You told her you would.

A wife in withdrawal due to a husband's love busters is extremely common around here. In all cases, the procedure is the same. Eliminate the love busters, and persistently invite (but do not demand) your wife to spend time with you. In the meantime, engage in as much conversation with her as she will let you, and also be affectionate (but not obnoxiously so), express admiration, and invite her to spend time with you and the children.

You have to eliminate the love busters and wait for another chance and do all this while you wait for your other chance.

You have to be patient, not impatient.

I didn't have another AO. AO is different from DJ. I don't really need to take time off work to post to know I have to stop DJ. I am posting to know how. Just as GSR2 helps with AO, What helps with intrusive thoughts is my question? i In particular, it pops every time there is an event I dislike. I need to control my own thoughts. I am mot moving and if she moves out, I'm moving out with her where ever she goes, so that won't solve anything either. Controlling my thoughts is the key.

Here's a better question: do you think she will ever forgive you for being controlling and abusive? She doesn't have to, you know. It is her choice, just as it is your choice whether or not to forgive her.

Do you want her to forgive you? I would focus on that right now, because that is the current pressing issue that is causing problems in your relationship. Not the past - the present.

Not according to her, which is why she was moving out till you stopped her.

No, you need to control your mouth, not your thoughts. If a disrespectful thought comes to your head, simply don't express it.

The problem is the same as the problem with anger, and the GSR meter will help with both. The problem is impulse control and allowing your emotions control you. A thought comes to your head and you (like me) have no practice filtering it, so you say it. You need to learn (like me) to calm down and shut up.

You'll learn to control your behavior a long time before you learn to control your feelings. You'll never learn to control your feelings if you don't learn to control your behavior.

Calm down and shut up. It's actually easy, once you practice.

Calming down is the key. You need to get to a point that you can have those thoughts and not react in anger or frustration.

You don't need to control your thought in order to control your speech.

You can control your speech, can't you? You don't just tell your boss, or that policeman who warns you about speeding, or that thug on the street, what you think of them, do you?

Could you control your speech for a year if the rewards was $1million? I think you could.

You can. You just won't, because you know you can get away with it, because you can bully your wife around to staying with you again.

You have a very arrogant tone with posters who are trying to help you (see the underlined sentences above). You don't appear to take your problem of abusive behaviour seriously at all. It seems that you only post here to show your wife that you are "doing" MB - but you are not. "Doing" MB involves putting a zip on your mouth, and not uttering nasty comments to her.

Your marriage is your $1million, and you're about to lose it.

I am quite sure that like many husbands in this program, you'll have to do a lot of it alone at first because like most of us you've dug an insanely deep hole.

Put the shovel down and stop digging, PC; we all had to!

I have seen such a dramatic change in your wife since she first came here. She was desperate to save her marriage, and willing to do just about anything for you to make that happen.

Now, she's barely there. She's a shell of what she was. Your continued abuse has drained her to nothing.

If you want to keep her, then shut your mouth and control yourself.

I didn't bully wife to staying, I kindly and lovingly insisted, and I'm not abusing her, I am trying my hardest to create the perfect marriage, but I have years of habits to change and my wife's expectations have changed.
I have done a lot of progress in controlling my anger but changing habits isn't as easy as saying stop and I stop. I am already on antidepressant, still in pain from the past. While in the past she wouldn't tell me my DJ, as time went on, she did and wrote the long list of DJ I would read weekly, weeks later wrote half and said half put immidiately. Now, more weeks later, she isn't letting anything go by without saying it immidiately and cancelling our UA time. The stain shirt example happened way way way back, was only an example. No AO since running water, though she isn't letting any DJ go by without attempting to separate, cancelling dates and that is why I asked what happens if I say a DJ and she cancells our date. I don't think I am controlling at all now and actually she is the one in control COMPLETELY. Either I change or she leaves.
The solution is shut my mouth so I will and some issues about the affair I will start repressing again. And no, I don't post for her to see I am trying. She knows I am trying. I wanted to know as many posts back if there was an effective technique for DJ and Marko answered the GSR2 helps with time. Time is something I don't have because wife isn't letting one single thing go by without cancelling our date or retrieving. Shut my mouth up will have to be.

ProChoice, did you read my posts?

This is great, ProChoice! She is learning the program and putting it into practice. She is refusing to tolerate abusive behavior such as disrespectful judgments. That is just what you want. She's also informing you of them.

Perfect!

You will never recover as long as you keep telling yourself that.

Every DJ is abuse. Every AO is abuse. And she has every right to cancel any and all dates with you as long you continue this abuse. You don't get to abuse her, then expect her to want to be around you.

Nobody told you to repress anything. What did we tell you to do?

This is an angry outburst. Definitive proof you are still having them.

By that definition most if not all marriages have been abusive at some point.

Not talk about the affair = repress that. Note: Affair pops up each time I get frustruated from unrelated issues. Solution: stay calm and make new memories to replace the old ones, but I am not there yet. Struggling to get there.

Yes: control behavior then with time will come feelings. Got it. I do good most of the times. Its a few times I slip. Keep improving.

Yes.

Most marriages also fail.

You can't afford to do this ever. Overspending when you're bankrupt is not an option once, never mind a few times.

There is an assumption that she should be letting some DJs 'go by'. How on earth do you let disrespect go by? It's drowning her and if the way to take a breath is by not seeing you, that makes sense doesn't it? You are saying you can't prevent the disrespect and so the only option that leaves is to avoid being around it.

Besides which, it doesn't help you to be let off the hook and given endless time to unwind 'years of habits'. If she encouraged you to bring up angry opinions and her affair, you would remain stuck in anger and hardly likely to find any happiness there.

It's perfectly clear that these ARE angry outbursts too. You say that the thoughts and feelings are angry ones and she perceives the anger behind your statements. You don't have to be throwing chairs for it to be an outburst. All you have to do to subject your wife to an AO is be around her while feeling angry.

If you can't be cheerful and pleasant while speaking to her, get out of her way. If you have to separate to protect her, then do so. You have an overdrawn account here. Do whatever you can to ensure there are no more withdrawals.

No, it doesn't. MB does not teach "repression."

You are supposed to be able to get to the point that a thought of the affair crosses your mind, and you remain calm without reacting. To do that, you must be using your GSR meter and practicing thinking those thoughts while forcing yourself to remain calm. There is no repression here.

Yes, but why don't you focus on your own?

Am I am Trivializing the Term Abuse?

It's been a while since I've last posted. Me and my wife started again on the plan, but got in some fights, little things that I should have let go. She tried to move out, and I froze the account. We got in a few arguments, I told her to go back to chatting with OM, and she actually said, I will consider your offer this time.
We didn't talk for a while after that. I ignored her, she ignored me, until enough time had gone by and I tried to talk to her again. She would keep ignoring me. I went back to trying to work things out and she actually came with the I don't love you anymore. I asked her if she had contacted OM, and she answered, maybe. I said, how could you. Really??? How could she, twice???? Are you serious???? No way. Really??? How could you??? She said I don't care about you anymore, because it is either me or you who will be happy. Not true, and that is a lousy excuse. Didn't you learn anything in all the marriage builders forum. She actually said, oh, yes, here is my login user name. Won't need it anymore. And added 'I guess I don't have character after all, and I guess you were right about me all along' (that because I always told her she would end up back chatting with OM), I guess I am selfish after all, I rather not care about you than not care about me. STOP!!!! For crying out loud. Enough!!!

I went to a real plan A now, I know, why now when she is out of the game, I don't know. I guess because I still love her. Maybe I wanted her to go back and actually write a good no contact letter, not like her last love type none contact letter. I don't know.

I have been not getting mad, and trying to get her to look at me at least, and she avoids me completely. She is never on the phone, or on the computer. She is just not present even when she is next to me. She is looking at the wall, or the floor. I have been completely not love busting now, she made some few messes, and this time, I actually was thinking of us, and how I want a chance to change.

I googled OM's facebook, he wrote an open post "I am so glad you are back baby, you've always been in my heart". I don't know if that is actually a message to my wife, or what, coincidence? I found out he is still not married, figures. My wife posted on her facebook status "I feel alive again".

This time, I am sure she is having an affair again, she clued me about it. But, how can I expose something I have no proof about.

Another clue, after that day, she has been coming 15 minutes to half an hour later than usual. GPS indicates she is in school at that time, where she has computers available.

She really isn't doing much actively, cleans the house, plays with the kids, even cooks my meals, but is doing way too much passively, with an evil-angel look, not really looking at me, or answering my questions like I described, avoiding me, and sleeping in the girls room. Maybe an affair, yes no character, yes you were right. Is she telling me she is in contact with OM again?

PC, you've demonstrated that you can't stick to the plan, so I wouldn't expect it to work now because it is going to be even harder to keep your emotions in check.

I would encourage you to get on antidepressants to level your emotions out, get after the anger management work with a GSR device, and contact Dr. Harley for advice.

I am the poster child for hanging around Marriage Builders for years and not getting control of my anger.

It doesn't work. It will never work.

None of these problems, not even the affair (if she's having one), can be fixed until you succeed at following Dr. Harley's recommendations and eliminate angry outbursts.

Once you have done that, and only then, you can move on to how to put your marriage back together.

* Antidepressants
* GSR meter
* Dr. Harley